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Rhubarb Tart
06-21-2010, 06:09 PM
Bulger killer Jon Venables faces child porn charges

Page last updated at 16:50 GMT, Monday, 21 June 2010 17:50 UK


Police handout in 1993 of Jon Venables Jon Venables was given a new identity on his release from prison

One of the two killers of Merseyside toddler James Bulger has been charged with possession and distribution of indecent images of children.

Jon Venables, who killed James in 1993, was released from jail in 2001 and given a new identity and anonymity for life under a special court order.

But Venables, now 27, was recalled to prison in February after allegedly breaching the terms of his licence.

He is charged with two offences under the 1978 Protection of Children Act.
Early stage

It is alleged that he downloaded 57 indecent images of children between February 2009 and February 2010.

He is secondly accused of distributing seven images between 1 and 23 February this year by allowing other people to access files on his computer through a peer-to-peer network.

The case is at a very early stage and will return to court on 23 July. That hearing will be the first opportunity for Venables to indicate whether he will be pleading guilty or not guilty to the alleged offences.

The Bulger family lawyer says there is "relief" Venables has been charged

Were he to plead not guilty, he would eventually appear before a jury under his new name. If he pleads guilty, the case will quickly move to sentencing.

Under the terms of Venables' anonymity order, the media is not allowed to report anything about his new identity and a jury would never know who he really is.

In March, the then Justice Secretary Jack Straw announced that Venables had been returned to prison but said that it was not in the interests of a fair trial to publicise what had allegedly happened.

Denise Fergus, James's mother, had called for the reason for the recall to be made public, saying as his mother she had "a right to know".
'Disaster'

Speaking outside court on Monday, Robin Makin, solicitor for James's father Ralph, attacked the Ministry of Justice for the way it had handled the case ever since Venables' recall.

"We consider that the way this has been handled since news of Jon Venables being recalled to custody has been a disaster," he said.

"The public authorities ought to behave quite differently and in due course further details are likely to emerge of the mistakes that were made. Ineptitude and incompetence spring to mind."

Venables and his friend Robert Thompson were jailed for life when, as 10-year-olds, they took two-year-old James from a shopping centre in Bootle.

The toddler's body was found on a disused railway line more than two miles away from where he had been taken.

Venables and Thompson were given new identities on their release from prison in 2001 because of the risk that they would be victims of a vigilante attack.

Media law expert Mark Stephens insisted that despite the publicity it was "almost certain" that Venables could get a fair trial.

He said: "The judge has gone to extraordinary lengths, as has the prosecution. They have worked with the defence to make sure that a fair trial can happen and that justice will out at the end of the day."
Just out of interest, under islamic law, would these boys be punished for what they did or would the authority leave them because they are underage and have not reached puberty at the time?

What if you personal opoioion on this? do you think they were unaware of their actions, or they are both evil?

And what punishment would you have given these boys at the time?

Do you think what the uk has done with these boys were right?
Reply

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Salahudeen
07-23-2010, 08:59 PM
I was watching the news and I have to say, I was quite shocked, here is a man who is guilty of murdering a toddler spends some time in prison gets released re offends and gets only 2 years?? what the hell is up with that??

He was guilty of watching and distributing child porn that involved baby toddlers and he gets just 2 years???

There is a quote from him I believe in one of the newspapers where he says "I'm glad to be going back to prison" I mean this is really some sort of punishment?? and it's not just this offence, when he was released he committed many other offences but this was the only offence that warranted a prison sentence.

So in another 2 years he will be back out prowling the streets of Britain.

I find this quite disturbing, but then I started to look at this society as a whole and such crimes are nothing spectacular anymore, it's become the norm that you see it in the news every now and again.

Another shocking crime I saw is, a cocaine addict killed a woman by running her over with her own car in the process of stealing it, while her 5 year old son watched. He got "at least 6 years", shouldn't it be more like at least 40 years.

The crimes are so heinous it's disturbing, what's even more disturbing is the sentences/punishments given.

They look down upon Shari'a for having such harsh punishments but it's not as if their society is criminal free that they can look down upon Shari'a.

Let them produce the ideal society and then criticize the shari'a, I really do find it funny when they call us barbaric and they let murderers free roam on their streets and child molesters.

They call the shari'a barbaric as if their society has reached the pinnacle of societies but in actual fact their society has the most heinous of crimes being committed and the lightest of punishments.

It really does bug me that a person who watched toddlers getting sexually abused and distributed such material will be walking the streets again in two years +o( on top of that he's a murderer. Makes me laugh when such a society criticizes other societies for things such as "Oh you make your women cover up" "oh you cut peoples hands off" As if their society is so bloody perfect.

There's a saying that goes something like "Fix your own home first before you try to fix someone else's"

What's even more astounding is, this child murderer, when he was released from prison he was given a new identity so he would be protected from the public :hmm:

they actually gave him a new identity to protect him, I mean for god's sake he's a criminal.
Reply

Salahudeen
07-23-2010, 09:03 PM
Has anyone else noticed that such vile crimes have become a norm in this society that people are just a little shocked, maybe they stay shocked for about a day or 2 and then they go back to business as normal.

It's reached that stage where it doesn't even have a deep impact upon people. They just raise an eye brow and then that's it back to business. It's become that common.
Reply

Woodrow
07-24-2010, 12:12 AM
If any body can remember what the original topic is, you may now continue the thread. But please stay on topic.
Reply

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Grace Seeker
07-24-2010, 01:42 AM
You introduce a number of very different subjects in one post:

format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
here is a man who is guilty of murdering a toddler spends some time in prison gets released re offends and gets only 2 years?? what the hell is up with that??
Yes, it does seem shocking. Since I'm not from Britian I really can't comment on the specifics of the case, on that as you present it, it seems shocking.


He was guilty of watching and distributing child porn that involved baby toddlers and he gets just 2 years???
If you only consider that aspect of the case, that might be about right. Watching and distributing are different than actually being engaged in perpetrating those behaviors. Both are wrong, but considered independent of anything else, watching and distributing would be a lesser offense. In some cases, without any previous history and the nature of pronography, I could see people being let go simply on probation.

There is a quote from him I believe in one of the newspapers where he says "I'm glad to be going back to prison" I mean this is really some sort of punishment?? and it's not just this offence, when he was released he committed many other offences but this was the only offence that warranted a prison sentence.
When you say that this was the only offence that warranted a prison sentence are you expressing your opinion or that of the courts? The idea that he might say "I'm glad to be going back to prison" could be indicative of him understanding the horrificness of his crimes and the likelihood/fear that he might continue to commit them. In which case, it might be the first bit of remorse and rational act from him that he realizes it is better for him to be in prison than on the streets.

Again, I'm not from Britian, but I did spend some time working in the penal system in the USA and one of the things that we had to remind ourselves was that the purpose of prison was not to punish people for their crimes, the punishment was that a person was denied their freedom.

So in another 2 years he will be back out prowling the streets of Britain.
That is a scary thought.

I find this quite disturbing, but then I started to look at this society as a whole and such crimes are nothing spectacular anymore, it's become the norm that you see it in the news every now and again.

Another shocking crime I saw is, a cocaine addict killed a woman by running her over with her own car in the process of stealing it, while her 5 year old son watched. He got "at least 6 years", shouldn't it be more like at least 40 years.

The crimes are so heinous it's disturbing, what's even more disturbing is the sentences/punishments given.
It appears you have a new subject, not just one specific crime, but a reflection on society as a whole.


They look down upon Shari'a for having such harsh punishments but it's not as if their society is criminal free that they can look down upon Shari'a.
They, who? Is this some sort of generalized and broad, sweeping anonymous "they", directed at everyone in British society as a whole, or some small particular subset?


Let them produce the ideal society and then criticize the shari'a, I really do find it funny when they call us barbaric and they let murderers free roam on their streets and child molesters.

They call the shari'a barbaric as if their society has reached the pinnacle of societies but in actual fact their society has the most heinous of crimes being committed and the lightest of punishments.
A third subject in which you seek compare the basic values of two different forms of jurisprudence.


It really does bug me that a person who watched toddlers getting sexually abused and distributed such material will be walking the streets again in two years +o( on top of that he's a murderer. Makes me laugh when such a society criticizes other societies for things such as "Oh you make your women cover up" "oh you cut peoples hands off" As if their society is so bloody perfect.

There's a saying that goes something like "Fix your own home first before you try to fix someone else's"
Doesn't that go both ways?


What's even more astounding is, this child murderer, when he was released from prison he was given a new identity so he would be protected from the public :hmm:

they actually gave him a new identity to protect him, I mean for god's sake he's a criminal.
Yes, that seems a bit far-fetched and unusual. And if it is unusual, then remember that it also means this would not be the usual way in which things are dealt with. Making value judgments of the system probably should be done based on what are the norms and typical standars, not abnormal circumstances. Though perhaps your criticism is that it is becoming typical, if that is so, then you make a good case that the system is indeed in need of fixing.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 01:50 AM
Just to add the child murderer was a child (aged 10) himself at the time when he killed the boy with another boy (also aged 10). He was released from rehabilitation aged 18. This was huge case in 1993 and caused anger and frustration amongst the British public. The anger was even bigger once both were released. Then he committed another offence in 2010 (aged 27).

Do you want news item to read the case, Grace?
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-24-2010, 02:19 AM
Ah, that case. I remember it. It made news over on this side of the pond as well.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Ah, that case. I remember it. It made news over on this side of the pond as well.
Yes I was quite shocked that you did not recognise the name or case at all. I guess it wasnt as big over there was it?

Do you think the government did the right thing by giving them another chance or should have they been locked up for life?
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Maryan0
07-24-2010, 03:03 AM
I've heard of this case and this Venables guy was a child along with other one who participated in the torturing and murder of James Bulger. This kid was later sent to I think a juvenile detention where he was exposed to other kids with issues. He didnt stand a chance. I think he needs rehabilitation or to be examined. I dont believe he is necessarily evil.
I wonder what the Islamic stance is on children who commit serious crimes
Salam
Reply

Woodrow
07-24-2010, 03:09 AM
Just to add a thought:

Fury in U.S. as boy, 12, is to be tried as adult for shooting dead his father's pregnant fianceé

By Mail Foreign Service
Last updated at 9:17 AM on 31st March 2010

* Comments (161)
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A boy of 12 accused of murdering his pregnant stepmother could spend the rest of his life in jail after a judge ruled he should be tried as an adult.
SOURCE

However keep in mind each State sets it's own laws and each of the 50 States would probably have different laws regarding a similar case. This can only be seen as the law in one state and other states may or may not have the same laws permitting the trial of a 12 year old as an adult.


UPDATE: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/jord...ry?id=10288704
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Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 03:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You introduce a number of very different subjects in one post:

Yes, it does seem shocking. Since I'm not from Britian I really can't comment on the specifics of the case, on that as you present it, it seems shocking.



If you only consider that aspect of the case, that might be about right. Watching and distributing are different than actually being engaged in perpetrating those behaviors. Both are wrong, but considered independent of anything else, watching and distributing would be a lesser offense. In some cases, without any previous history and the nature of pronography, I could see people being let go simply on probation.

When you say that this was the only offence that warranted a prison sentence are you expressing your opinion or that of the courts? The idea that he might say "I'm glad to be going back to prison" could be indicative of him understanding the horrificness of his crimes and the likelihood/fear that he might continue to commit them. In which case, it might be the first bit of remorse and rational act from him that he realizes it is better for him to be in prison than on the streets.

Again, I'm not from Britian, but I did spend some time working in the penal system in the USA and one of the things that we had to remind ourselves was that the purpose of prison was not to punish people for their crimes, the punishment was that a person was denied their freedom.

That is a scary thought.

It appears you have a new subject, not just one specific crime, but a reflection on society as a whole.


They, who? Is this some sort of generalized and broad, sweeping anonymous "they", directed at everyone in British society as a whole, or some small particular subset?


A third subject in which you seek compare the basic values of two different forms of jurisprudence.


Doesn't that go both ways?




Yes, that seems a bit far-fetched and unusual. And if it is unusual, then remember that it also means this would not be the usual way in which things are dealt with. Making value judgments of the system probably should be done based on what are the norms and typical standars, not abnormal circumstances. Though perhaps your criticism is that it is becoming typical, if that is so, then you make a good case that the system is indeed in need of fixing.
When I said "they" I was referring to those people who criticize the shari'a for having harsh punishments and being to extreme in the treatment of criminals as if their system (uk system) dishes out perfect justice and produces the ideal society, you see I find it strange when people claim the shari'a would produce a backward society and people who are like animals. When the very society they live in produces such people all ready. It's as if I criticize my neighbour for the way he raises his kids and tell him the way in which he's raising his kids is inefficient and he should raise them the way I raised mine, while my own kids are murderer's and paedophiles. "you shouldn't raise your kids this way because they will turn out bad" while my own kids are sitting in prison. Do you see the hypocrisy of it? What I'm getting at, is those people who criticize foreign countries for implementing a certain amount of shari'a while their own society is just as bad when it comes to the rate of crime.

This is why I said the phrase "fix your own home first" because I've met people who've criticized countries for implementing parts of shari'a law and calling it a backwards barbaric country because it has laws such as cutting the hands of the thief off, or taking the life of the murderer, yet their own society has such disgusting backward crimes being committed. I find it hypocritical when people say it's a backwards society for implementing these punishments when in their very own society they have some of the highest crime rates in the world compared to the countries they deem to be backwards for implementing shari'a punishments.

And yes when I said fix your own home first it goes two ways and what's your point? Do you see Muslim countries invading Western Countries with the aim of liberating the people and imposing their values and laws upon Western Countries?

Or do you see Western Countries invading Muslim countries and imposing it's values and laws upon them? It would be nice if Britain fixed it's own home first before trying to fix Afghanistan and Iraq, that's what I meant when I said "Fix your own home first". Britain is invading other countries and trying to liberate them/westernise them when their own society isn't exactly perfect.

Well I was making the criticism that this society has some of the highest crime rates yet they have the cheek to call another society as barbaric because of an issue here and there. And they march in to other countries saying "we're here to liberate you" when their own society has some of the most atrocious crimes being committed in it. On a regular basis. Does that not seem hypocritical to you? If I were to march into your house and tell you how to raise your kids and structure your house when my kids were out there doing the most heinous crimes? And I tried to enforce the environment in which I raised my kids on your kids when it clearly wasn't a very efficient one.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lisa0
I've heard of this case and this Venables guy was a child along with other one who participated in the torturing and murder of James Bulger. This kid was later sent to I think a juvenile detention where he was exposed to other kids with issues. He didnt stand a chance. I think he needs rehabilitation or to be examined. I dont believe he is necessarily evil.
I wonder what the Islamic stance is on children who commit serious crimes
Salam
I wondered the same thing. I did a topic on this but no one answered. However I did find out that both boys didnt show any sign of puberty thus they wouldn't be punished under islamic law. In islamic law, if both male and female did not show any sign of puberty then the maximum age for puberty would be 15.

I read the report on this case, both were said to look 8 years old with no sign of puberty. However saying that, I still think Islamic law would punish them with lashing? I dont really know.

Also, now he is no longer a child, he is 27 years old. For that very reason he deserve more than two years.

How would islamic law punish the five years boys that killed another five years girl in Norway years later? I dont think they would be lashed? I dont know.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 03:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just to add a thought:



SOURCE

However keep in mind each State sets it's own laws and each of the 50 States would probably have different laws regarding a similar case. This can only be seen as the law in one state and other states may or may not have the same laws permitting the trial of a 12 year old as an adult.


UPDATE: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/jord...ry?id=10288704
Yes I saw this on CNN. I dont know what to make of this. His father is still by his side which is remarkable despite him killing his wife and his child. The victim’s family want the boy to be punished severely and spent life behind bars which is understandable.
Reply

Woodrow
07-24-2010, 04:37 AM
Jordan Brown was 11, very close to the age of the Jamie Bulger killer at the time of the crime.

I bring this up to show that many of us here in the USA have no right to criticize Shariah. The laws in some of our states are harsh and applied at young ages.

some of our states are rather quick to apply the death penalty. While here the means of execution is very sanitized, the death penalty is still the death penalty.

MICHAEL LOPEZ - Juvenile on Texas Death Row

Michael Anthony Lopez Jr. looked about 14 as he sat in a Houston courtroom in May 1999, on trial for his life for killing Harris County Deputy Constable Micheal Eakin.

Despite his youthful appearance and age -- he was 17 when he killed Eakin on Sept. 29, 1998 -- prosecutors sought the death penalty. Jurors gave it after six hours of deliberations.

State District Judge Ted Poe branded the teen a "street terrorist," prosecutors talked of a life of crime that began at age 11 and, perhaps befitting his age, Lopez pitched a childlike fit in court after the sentencing. When the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals reviewed the case in October, one of the judges commented to appellate attorney Stanley Schneider, "Your client is a mean little guy."

Of that, even Schneider concedes, there is little doubt.

But, like other death penalty foes, Schneider also argues that Lopez is too young to be put to death and that Texas' law on capital punishment is unconstitutional as it applies to 17-year-olds, who are considered adults in such cases.

Nationwide, among people who otherwise believe in capital punishment, just 26 percent said they would support executing someone who was a juvenile at the time of offense. Support was even weaker in Harris County, where just one in four respondents approved of executing juveniles. The poll did not define whether a 17-year-old is considered a juvenile.

Nevertheless, the only poll that counted for Lopez was the vote of 12 that occurred in Poe's jury room in 1999. Schneider said the case should never have reached that point.

"(Lopez) is just a kid," Schneider said recently, as he awaited a ruling from the state's highest criminal appeals court. "If you look at his record and look at him, there are some real questions about his maturity and home life. There are questions about the opportunities this kid has had and whether he ever had a chance."
SOURCE
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 04:45 AM
You are saying the U.S are harsh but yet Squiggle is suggesting otherwise for the UK. Where would Sharia come in place, near UK or US?
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Woodrow
07-24-2010, 05:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
You are saying the U.S are harsh but yet Squiggle is suggesting otherwise for the UK. Where would Sharia come in place, near UK or US?
Neither could be considered to be Shariah. However some of the US states are much closer to sharia than the UK is. Some states are also very lax and extremely lenient. Each state has it's own laws. For some crimes Texas is the strictest state and also the state most likely to use the death penalty. Some states do not have the death penalty for any crime. Both Alabama and Mississippi have no minimum age for the death penalty to be applied.

Texas has the strongest anti-alcohol laws and the largest number of counties in which alcohol is prohibited. But it is one of the most lax in regards to firearms. Texas is one of the states that allows shariah law to be used in civil cases provided all involved parties agree.

California and New York seem to be the states with the most lenient punishments. But overall I think US law is much stricter than in the UK and on the average has harsher punishments.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Neither could be considered to be Shariah. However some of the US states are much closer to sharia than the UK is. Some states are also very lax and extremely lenient. Each state has it's own laws. For some crimes Texas is the strictest state and also the state most likely to use the death penalty. Some states do not have the death penalty for any crime. Both Alabama and Mississippi have no minimum age for the death penalty to be applied.

Texas has the strongest anti-alcohol laws and the largest number of counties in which alcohol is prohibited. But it is one of the most lax in regards to firearms. Texas is one of the states that allows shariah law to be used in civil cases provided all involved parties agree.

California and New York seem to be the states with the most lenient punishments. But overall I think US law is much stricter than in the UK and on the average has harsher punishments.
Both of you are pretty much talking about hypocrisy on different end of the scale. I didn’t say the UK or US are Sharia, jus which one is closer. And I agree with what you have written.

Btw, do you think the young lad aged 11 should be punished by death?
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Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 05:52 AM
The issue is not just the punishment, you can't say this country has a shari'a punishment and the crime is still high so shari'a isn't effective because shar'a would change the way in which the society is governed you wouldn't get the promoting of many vices that are so commonly promoted in non muslim countries and even muslim countries that don't have shari'a. You wouldn't see lewdness promoted and this would indirectly impact upon the prevention of many other crimes I think. This is my opinion.

When the population is being indoctrinated with bad stuff is it any wonder they end up behaving in such ways. When you see kids taking gangster rappers as role models who show off about how many times they've been shot, is it any wonder crime is so high?

when you see a naked woman next to nearly every advertisement you look at is it any wonder sexual deviancy is so common? I think shari'a would make prevention happen and this is something I don't see in the UK, I see the punishment but no means of prevention. If kids are watching bad channels on the TV is it any wonder they grow up so perverted? if they watch music videos where the singer is literally naked is it any wonder sex becomes the focus of their world. If they're listening to dirty songs in which the singer is talking about sexual stuff is it any wonder they turn out so messed up? The other day I saw a 10 year old girl singing the following lyrics of a song

LYRICS REMOVED BY WOODROW--Although the lyrics are relevant for the thread, they are a touch too rowdy for those of us with sensitive eyes. I will just state I agree those are obscene and not appropriate for any person, especially not for a young girl.


You have to ask yourself, when a 10 year old and many other young kids are singing the above lyrics is that a good sign? do you think the chances of this girl getting pregnant as a teenager increase when she's singing songs about a mans ....... do you think she'll grow up as a modest individual? You think a boy who hears a girl singing such lyrics is going to have any respect for her as an individual and a person? or will he look at her as only fit for 1 purpose?

It all starts from a young age the brain washing.

It's such a shame we have no state that implements 100% shari'a, can you imagine a society where children wern't exposed to such lewdness and violence and they grew up with out being brain washed. Gang culture is also common, many want to be "gangster rappers" like 50 cent.

This would be interesting for another thread, how do the media/music/hollywood industries impact upon the life of a child? do you think if they were regulated more strictly we'd see a drop in crime?
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Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 05:57 AM
I'm looking for some statistics, what was the level of crime before the media/tv became prevalent in our lives? it would be interesting to see the trends in crime before the media/tv became prevalent, and then look at the trends in crime after. Does anyone know where I could find statistics like this?

I think it would've been lower would really be interested to see.
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Woodrow
07-24-2010, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106

Btw, do you think the young lad aged 11 should be punished by death?

:sl:

No, I believe that only a very small number of 11 year old boys have reached puberty and to be safe I assume that all 11 year old boys have not reached maturity and should not be tried as adults. But I do not believe he should go unpunished. I believe he is deranged and dangerous, he should have been treated as being criminally insane and sentenced to hospitalization and rehabilitation until such time it is proven he is no longer a danger to himself or others.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:08 AM
I don’t think there is proper statistics to compare the past to present. If there is any, rest assured it would be heavily criticised. I also don’t think countries that do claim to carry out Sharia law do in-depth research on their state of societies (early you compared the UK with Saudi Arabia). For example, women is more like to report rape in the UK (even though women are still reluctant) then in Saudi where she faces either prosecution, unjust treatment or disowned by family for sake of honour. These are two different places and two different cultures and whole load other factors.

Besides I also think there is no real Sharia law in this world to compare the west or any other state to.
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Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 06:16 AM
^I have to agree to an extent that there is no country that implements shari'a 100% percent so we can't compare, but it's not just rape, it's stuff like murder and theft that is also less. And I noticed many of the middle eastern countries have lower crime rates across the board not for just crimes that involve women, all though they don't have shari'a and I'm wondering why this is.

Look up the statistics http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top...ime-rates.html


UK is violent crime capital of Europe
The United Kingdom is the violent crime capital of Europe and has one of the highest rates of violence in the world, worse even than America, according to new research.

read the full article here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...of-Europe.html
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

No, I believe that only a very small number of 11 year old boys have reached puberty and to be safe I assume that all 11 year old boys have not reached maturity and should not be tried as adults. But I do not believe he should go unpunished. I believe he is deranged and dangerous, he should have been treated as being criminally insane and sentenced to hospitalization and rehabilitation until such time it is proven he is no longer a danger to himself or others.
Perfect! I completely agree with you.

I feel sad when I see the British people reaction in 1993 and 2001 when they were released. I remember watching the bunch of people outside the court in documentary wanting to kill the boys. I also remember this woman with her son (who looked similar age as the boys) was saying she wanted to death penalty because she believed child should not be killed and those that kill a child should be killed. I don’t think she realise the irony of her statement. I can understand the outcry but the anger from the public enough to want to see and kill them? The sort of reaction is what I would expect from the victim parents and understandable why.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
^I have to agree to an extent that there is no country that implements shari'a 100% percent so we can't compare, but it's not just rape, it's stuff like murder and theft that is also less. And I noticed many of the middle eastern countries have lower crime rates across the board not for just crimes that involve women, all though they don't have shari'a and I'm wondering why this is.

Look up the statistics http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top...ime-rates.html


"Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.
Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.
The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.


The Tories said Labour had presided over a decade of spiralling violence. In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute. The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show: The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.

It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain. The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.

It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.
In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0uZuFeFkP


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0uZtmLiaB


I find the comments posted by people at the bottom of the above article interesting,


We have criminals growing up in a culture which falls over itself to tell show them that even if they are caught they will receive no punishment. All this does is result in more serious crimes being committed as criminals "aren't bothered" if they receive a tagging or "community" sentence.

The only proven course of action is to bring in zero tolerance and have proper deterrents.

The only problem is that the money that we will need to build and run more prisons will come from the tax payer, and the "reward" for society will only show itself 20 years down the line. No political party will take this hit.
- Eric Johnson, Blackppol lancs, 02/7/2009




We have no deterrent and that is why criminals indulge in criminal behaviour. Look, if I'm in a hurry, I would certainly drive in the bus lanes. I know it has undesirable consequences (slowing down the buses and making public transport less efficient) but I would justify it to myself. Why do I never, ever drive in the bus lanes at the moment? Because I WILL be caught on camera and I WILL be fined £120. Simple. Don't rely on people's "better nature" to discipline them, rely on a failsafe, consistent punishment. It works!
- Emma, London, UK, 02/7/2009 09:08
Salam
Firstly don’t ever use the daily mail. Do you want to see the false informations and statistic the use for Muslims community in Britain? Have you seen the false information they have written for countries like Saudi Arabia. They write so much crap. And you know why they (other newspaper like them get away with so much crap?
The editor of the Daily Mail is Paul Dacre. The chairman of the PCC Editors Committee is Paul Dacre..

Look at this blog dedicated to make a mockery out of the daily fail (which what I call) and other vile newspapers. Just read it through you would laugh so much:
http://www.butireaditinthepaper.co.uk/page/3/

Also, like I said you can’t compare the west whereby they do so much in-depth research to their countries to Muslims countries where sometime they don’t know what the hell is going on. In fact, certain practises are often investigated by organisations from the west. The whole world is a mess.
Reply

Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 06:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Perfect! I completely agree with you.

I feel sad when I see the British people reaction in 1993 and 2001 when they were released. I remember watching the bunch of people outside the court in documentary wanting to kill the boys. I also remember this woman with her son (who looked similar age as the boys) was saying she wanted to death penalty because she believed child should be killed and those that kill a child should be killed. I don’t think she realise the irony of her statement. I can understand the outcry but the anger from the public enough to want to see and kill them? The sort of reaction is what I would expect from the victim parents and understandable why.
but what does shari'a say
Reply

Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 06:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Salam
Firstly don’t ever use the daily mail. Do you want to see the false informations and statistic the use for Muslims community in Britain? Have you seen the false information they have written for countries like Saudi Arabia. They write so much crap. And you know why they (other newspaper like them get away with so much crap?
The editor of the Daily Mail is Paul Dacre. The chairman of the PCC Editors Committee is Paul Dacre..

Also, like I said you can’t compare the west whereby they do so much in-depth research to their countries to Muslims countries where sometime they don’t know what the hell is going on. In fact, certain practises are often investigated by organisations from the west. The whole world is a mess.
It's not just the daily mail, the telegraph also has the same information.
Reply

Woodrow
07-24-2010, 06:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
I'm looking for some statistics, what was the level of crime before the media/tv became prevalent in our lives? it would be interesting to see the trends in crime before the media/tv became prevalent, and then look at the trends in crime after. Does anyone know where I could find statistics like this?

I think it would've been lower would really be interested to see.

Looking back through historical records it seems that during the entire course of recorded history there have beeen areas of high crime and debauchery. For some examples look at the conditions at the times of Prophets Lut and Noe (PBUT). Look at ancient cities and their statues of phallic symbols and debauchery. Look at the times of ancient Rome and Greece with their vulgar celebrations of drukeness and sexual debauchery. Each era has had it's regions of high crime and immoral behavior.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
but what does shari'a say
Referring to wha exactly? The punishment for these kids or the people reaction which you have quoted.
Reply

Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 06:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Looking back through historical records it seems that during the entire course of recorded history there have beeen areas of high crime and debauchery. For some examples look at the conditions at the times of Prophets Lut and Noe (PBUT). Look at ancient cities and their statues of phallic symbols and debauchery. Look at the times of ancient Rome and Greece with their vulgar celebrations of drukeness and sexual debauchery. Each era has had it's regions of high crime and immoral behavior.
Interesting, I never thought of this, you're right, it's existed all along in a way.


Referring to wha exactly? The punishment for these kids or the people reaction which you have quoted.
how would shari'a deal with a murderer who is a child?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
It's not just the daily mail, the telegraph also has the same information.
I don’t think you got the point. How can we compare a society that look into their state in great detail to society that doesn’t or look only parts of it?

I hate it when I see research conducted by the west into Muslim societies because I often dismiss it as biased then wonder why the countries government are not looking into this and dismissing as if these things don’t exist. I understand why the west may conduct research on countries that have no structure or laws and constant conflict like Somalia but countries like Jordan, Saudi?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 06:55 AM
how would shari'a deal with a murderer who is a child?
As far as I am aware they would not face death? I dont know about punishment...
Reply

Salahudeen
07-24-2010, 06:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I don’t think you got the point. How can we compare a society that look into their state in great detail to society that doesn’t or look only parts of it?

I hate it when I see research conducted by the west into Muslim societies because I often dismiss it as biased then wonder why the countries government is not looking into this and dismissing as if these things don’t exist. I understand why the west may conduct research on countries that have no structure or laws and constant conflict like Somalia but countries like Jordan, Saudi?
I see your point, I was under the impression the research was conducted by the country itself and passed onto the people who collected the statistics. My naivety, I guess if statistics aren't reliable then there's no way of telling.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-24-2010, 07:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
I see your point, I was under the impression the research was conducted by the country itself and passed onto the people who collected the statistics. My naivety, I guess if statistics aren't reliable then there's no way of telling.
Like all governments they twist result to suit them. Just look at labour and their "crime" rate. I don’t think Muslim countries are immune to this. Every government want best result, so why not make it appear the best. Why not twist it to suit them or don’t bother researching the state of their own countries.

No governments want to know that they are crap and underperforming. Hence: why we also always see contradict results from independent organisations to the government like labour “crime rates”.

Or they would change the system like education is the UK where they have made GCSE a lot easier so more children can pass and gain "As". Every year the records are broken. Seriously I applaud the last government for fooling the people and this will just continue with conservative.
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nousername
07-24-2010, 07:58 PM
These boys make the shaitan envy their pure wickedness. they KNOWINGLY tortured and sexually assaulted a baby. they should have been locked in a dark cell and left alone for the rest of their lives. the fact that they got out is a travesty of justice, and now look at how "productive" they are in society. if James was my baby i would have no problem executing these two monsters myself.
Reply

cat eyes
07-24-2010, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nousername
These boys make the shaitan envy their pure wickedness. they KNOWINGLY tortured and sexually assaulted a baby. they should have been locked in a dark cell and left alone for the rest of their lives. the fact that they got out is a travesty of justice, and now look at how "productive" they are in society. if James was my baby i would have no problem executing these two monsters myself.
i support you on this. just look at what happened when one of them got released now he will be a danger to society in two years time
Reply

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