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h-n
06-25-2010, 05:23 PM
There is so much corrupted views, I personally think, it has been made because of what infidels want-they say they aren’t treated well, even when a Muslim is just mentioning Islam and even going as far as saying what they want to hear, and they say they don ‘t want to hear about going to Hell, or it doesn‘t work etc, when even the infidels in the past rejected Hell too, so nothing new there! We don't use the Christians approach be nice to the people to get them to join Chrisitanity. We respect people but also warn them of the going to Hell.

I think people are treating repenting like if they are going to be appreciated, motivated to do so. Even in School, people strive on encouragement to learn more, and when others want them to succeed they push on and pass. So to answer those misconceptions;-

Listening to the Prophets

1. All the Prophets had the best of behaviours, then why didn’t all the infidels repent?? If that is what they wanted. So even if Prophets are nice, it is the responses of the people themselves that help people repent. Even people fell down prostrating after hearing the Quran, that isn’t because people were being nice to them, because they listened to what Allah was saying to them.

The Prophets did not open Schools, to motivate people.
The Prophets did not provide preferential treatment to one person, they gave the same message to everyone. They did not choose who to tell to repent.
They told people to repent on the first day, not after they said they appreciate sinful people (which of course they never said).

Allah did say not to the Prophets not to turn people away from Islam. That is because a Prophet showing their anger, is worse then anybody showing theirs. As it can effect people more then other people can.. If you like someone and they turned round and shouted at you they can be taken a back and be afraid of coming up to them again. The people actually accepted all the Prophets on how they were, they did not have a problem with them, thye knew thjye were good, but threw Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him in the fire, attacked Prophet Lut peace be upon him, they understood the message to worship the one God and remember the Day of Judgement, and in Paradise and Hell.

People who have repented

2. I believe that people who have repented and became Muslim, have taken a bigger step then born Muslims, as we were already there accepted the one God, Allah. Even if you travelled the whole world, it still does not equate to the one step that person took when repenting. Do you honestly think that they will be worshipping the one God, fasting in the month of Ramadan, remembering the Day of Judgement if they had not accepted the message. Allah rewards them for turning to him. He has never said that people only repent when someone is being “nice” to them. Even though they used to do stupid things in the past, they already have shown that they are not the same, and frankly, we do not treat them differently from another Muslim.

It is our job as Muslims to help one another, if I had to travel for miles to fetch one Muslim then we would do this. Another Muslims is safe from being harmed by another Muslim. We fear Allah, we know that if we harmed them then we are going to be punished badly. Note no matter what the infidels talk about care, love etc they fail to get this attention by anyone.

They only as typical evil doers get people to be nice to them, as long as they get what they want. Even the governments were afraid of the breakdown of order with the financial crisis etc. They have said that when people don’t get what they want, they complain, riot, as per even in Greece. We Muslims are obedient even when we are hungry. We are the only
servants of Allah who can fight in the name of God, as we do not fight for a personal reason but to forbid evil and enjoin good. Did the homosexual think he was so important that an angel has to come down and kill him? Or the adulterer? At least we don’t kill people because we don’t like them personally is there not some reports that they killed single women and accused them of being witches in the West? Some were saying that they had not evidence that they were witches.

We don’t kill people for not becoming a Muslim, it is their choice the test that Allah has provided them with. We do not stop people from choosing their side in Paradise or hell, but we will openly be critical of people being in sin.


- People repented to at the time of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and they put up with a lot of opposition by Jews, idol worshippers etc. So they did not turn to Islam to have it easy in this world, or to be appreciate it or get attention.

- even in Christianity they talk of a prostitute who repented at the time of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him, but she did not repent because Prophet Jesus peace be upon him was going to marry her.

- the magicians repented even though they knew that their hands and feet would be chopped off, they did not repent because Prophet Moses peace be upon him was going to take care of them. Even Allah himself has chosen to tell us of what happened to them in the Quran, as they became the best of Muslims even though they hadn’t spent much time being one, and of course the died and have a goodly reward in the next world.

- even there are “Muslims” who have converted to Hinduism, Christianity, so they will not be attacked or be acceptable to people. So they have already shown their real faces that they are sinful people. Fearing others instead of Allah. Looking for people to be kind to them, when none can save you from Hell except Allah. This is the good side of the war on terror for us, that its sorting out the good and the bad Muslims, we are not going to help them when the countries are destroyed, when there is a calamity and when the Dajjal arrives.

Care for one another

3. As explained on Love, love say the Christians, we don’t talk about people just being nice to us, that does not help them unless they repent. The Prophets did not say if you just be nice to me, you’ll make it to Paradise. You only make it when you repent. Even the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him’s uncle was kind to him but he did not repent.

Natural disasters

4. They have heard that over 200,000 people got killed in the Tsunami, approximately, 80,000 in Pakistan, lets not forget dead bodies floating around New Orleans and they still do not heed the warnings.

Plagues

5. Did they not have the plagues of Egypt? Were they provided “nicely” to people?? Did Allah provide the locusts etc in a nice way??

Inconsiderate

6. In this world we are living in the midst of so much evil, even homosexuality has become openly accepted, they are adopting children, lewd behaviour, people been abused, physically, verbally and sexually. I find that the infidels out there complaining about how they are treated, are typically inconsiderate (but they claim not to be, and quote respect etc).

As stated in another thread, there have been plenty of cases of the ungrateful, inconsiderate attitude that evil people have;-

- even evil Males in Sierra Leone were still happy to ask for attention for someone to care about them, well what about the abused victims? What about the children? Do they think after all their crimes, Allah is going to say that we have to shower them with support, care and attention to help them repent, as people should already be good, even if they are poor, hungry etc.

The evil people want people to make them happy, then when they are, they are unlikely to attack others. They are not looking to repent to Allah, they want to be provided for, have attention.

If you said to them repent or take a beautiful wife, a home, They will take the wife and home. Even prisoners do not think about repenting, but looking for someone to care about them, and even look to getting married.

Of course even Allah himself is not going to give them Paradise unless they repent to him. Whenever have they heard that if a person does not repent, Allah will still take their soul, and place them in Paradise and live happily ever after, and be provided for?

Pastime

7. There are people who treat this world like a pastime, and then they say we did not learn such and such about Islam because we did not hear of it. Its like if someone goes on holiday, they don’t want to talk about the Day of Judgement as the think it would ruin their holiday. They know that Islam is present in this world, but they want to look at enjoying themselves on that beach, etc. Allah still throws them into Hell, as they chose the life of this world, they still heard about Allah, the Day of Judgement, and Hell. It is not our job to follow them around like Devils, and tell them about Islam. They chose to hear and listen to the message. You cannot change why you are in this world, no matter how you treat it, you are only squandering your own opportunity to make it to Paradise. This world is a test.
Even in School, there are students who want to gossip, hang out, and they don’t pass their exams. It is there fault that they did not pay attention. No matter what they did, they still did not change the fact that they were in a School-to learn and get an education. So just like this world no matter what you do, you cannot change the fact that this world is a test. Allah did not create it as a pastime, and if he did, do you really believe that he would have created all these sinful people especially so they can be stupid in this world? Nay they only lead themselves astray.

Life of this world

8. The foolishly hold on to the life of this world, even in California, were people have accepted that there will be a Major earthquake, but they are saying already that we will rebuild and recover from it. They have recovered from the financial crisis in the past, and they will recover from this, and when they get more, they call them unprecedented.
Even with the war against “Terror”, they were treating it like World War 2, but they cannot, as you went against Islam and if you reject the message you cannot survive from it! Hitler, even the war in Iraq, Kuwait the message of Islam was not actively being mentioned. Even Christians have admitted it is because of Islam that people have talked more about God.
The masses were not opening up and reading Mein Kampf, they accepted Hitler as being evil. But with the war on “Terror” people read the Quran and questioned what Muslims believe, again which they did not do with Hitler. They are trying to treat it like war, and engage the public to fight against the Muslims but the fact is that if we had just fought, fought when are they going to learn about Islam??

So no matter what they tried they could not get the desired effect. Allah is Most Merciful.
Infidels say they don’t want to learn about Islam, well they have been warned and that is sufficient. We also don’t care what they think, because if they really wanted to learn something else, then how come there are plenty of people in the West who aren’t availing themselves of the opportunities to learn? They talk about women’s rights, but there are females if they went abroad, any woman would say that they have been ruining their life, by not getting an education, being lewd, having children outside of marriage etc. So who are they to say that they didn’t want to learn about Islam? When they have been wasting their time, and even the educated only going after the life in this world.

Heeding the signs

9. Personally I heed the warnings of Allah, so that is always going to be a clash with non-Muslims. As I don’t find it acceptable that they ignored so many signs. They call themselves kind whilst others go through so much rubbish and they still choose the life of this world. They think some of the problems far away or in another country. Well did they not carry on enjoying themselves on an Italian beach when there were the bodies of two gypsy girls? They call themselves kind, caring people. The fact is that your not being one. You may accuse me of being unkind but I am not the one who is ignoring what is happening and treating this world like if its fun and that the countries will continue.

There is actually no difference to me if there was a huge earthquake tomorrow, as I am not treating this world like its my life. I see no difference if people are asking me if I was alive at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him building the ark, what about if someone came to me and talked about planning my long term future in this city?? I wouldn’t just politely as people call it decline the request. A person would use emotion. I wouldn’t just say “No, thank-you”. I would tell them that they are being stupid. “You dare to ignore what the Prophet has said and your telling me to join you in Hell”. I’m not going on the internet and attacking people, as some people do for the fun of it. They are willing to attack anyone for the sake of being horrible and disrespecting people. I’m not happy with people rejecting what Allah has taught them, and the many signs he has provided, he has provided them with foods of various kinds, fruits, trees, the rain etc. There is no way that after what has been happening in this world that I am going to treat them like if they are innocent. The Prophets have never taught anyone that if a person does not heed the warnings they are innocent, if they don’t repent are they not going to be treated as innocent people on the Day of
Judgement.

Thankfully, I know that I’ve only started on the internet in Sep 2009, and now its 2010, they had plenty of time to learn from the nice Muslims. There is no excuses for their behaviour, neither are they going to say on the Day of Judgement that it was acceptable for them to have been infidels in 2008, 2007, 2006 etc. So how I am is because I am heeding the warnings, the clash I have with people is over this. Allah is not going to teach me that after all these signs it is acceptable that people aren’t repenting. Allah is never going to say to me its acceptable that people don’t heed the warnings. Allah is not going to say to me to treat this place like if it is going to last. I have always believed that these countries were going to be destroyed before Sep 11. I am not biased on events today etc, that is why I have also written the “Not our job” thread.

I will refuse to accept that I put people off, when I am talking about Islam to the point. Trying to make everything relevant on my threads. Because you don’t have years and years to learn what Islam teaches.

Why I refuse is because I see and remember the environment, the warnings that Allah has provided them, I have been living in the same world roughly at the same time. Allah is Most Merciful, Compassionate, he does not wrong people, they wrong themselves, he has even provided people a fair test to those who have not even read the Quran. They have at least heard that there is one God, the Day of Judgement, of Paradise and of Hell. Even there are references that people will be witnesses on the Day of Judgement, not they will be ever saying that Allah never provided them with anything.

So repenting is about saving yourselves from Hell, not about receiving attention from others (as you will all be brought forward on the Day of Judgement, all are turned to Allah on that Day, not to each other, you won‘t even care to think about your children on that Day).
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glo
06-25-2010, 06:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
There is so much corrupted views, I personally think, it has been made because of what infidels want-they say they aren’t treated well, even when a Muslim is just mentioning Islam and even going as far as saying what they want to hear, and they say they don ‘t want to hear about going to Hell, or it doesn‘t work etc, when even the infidels in the past rejected Hell too, so nothing new there! We don't use the Christians approach be nice to the people to get them to join Chrisitanity. We respect people but also warn them of the going to Hell.

So repenting is about saving yourselves from Hell, not about receiving attention from others (as you will all be brought forward on the Day of Judgement, all are turned to Allah on that Day, not to each other, you won‘t even care to think about your children on that Day).
Greetingsm sister h-n

Having read a few of your threads I get the feeling that you feel very strongly about not warning people about going to hell, and that you have the impression that that's what Christians do.

Truth is, many Christians spend a lot of time proselytizing and trying to get people to convert to Christianity by threatening them with hell.
I have read many, many threads here in this forum in which Muslims complain about such practices.

It is interesting that you seem to be different in suggesting that Christians should threaten non-Christians with hell. Is that what you would like to see?

I can only give you my personal thoughts on this. I ask myself where would this lead us?

H-n: "If you don't convert to Islam you will go to hell!"

Glo: "If you don't convert to Christianity you will go to hell!"

...

It doesn't get us very far, does it?

I think we are better off trying to understand each other better and to teach each other about what we believe through words and deeds.
Threatening people into action never seems to be very helpful ... :hmm:

Truth is, it doesn't matter too much to me whether you choose to be a Muslim or otherwise.
We are all in God's hands. He is the one who calls us by name and guides us in truth and love.

I am not called to judge my neighbours, or to threaten them with hell or anything else.
I am called to love my neighbours and to care for them.
As for their afterlife, I never stop praying for my non-believing friends, colleagues, family members and neighbours, begging God that he may show them the way.
If is a small way I can be part of that process, then I gladly do so - but I will not try to BE GOD!

Allah alim

Salaam to you, sister :)
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h-n
06-25-2010, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Greetingsm sister h-n

Having read a few of your threads I get the feeling that you feel very strongly about not warning people about going to hell, and that you have the impression that that's what Christians do.

Truth is, many Christians spend a lot of time proselytizing and trying to get people to convert to Christianity by threatening them with hell.
I have read many, many threads here in this forum in which Muslims complain about such practices.

It is interesting that you seem to be different in suggesting that Christians should threaten non-Christians with hell. Is that what you would like to see?

I can only give you my personal thoughts on this. I ask myself where would this lead us?

H-n: "If you don't convert to Islam you will go to hell!"

Glo: "If you don't convert to Christianity you will go to hell!"

...

It doesn't get us very far, does it?

I think we are better off trying to understand each other better and to teach each other about what we believe through words and deeds.
Threatening people into action never seems to be very helpful ... :hmm:

Truth is, it doesn't matter too much to me whether you choose to be a Muslim or otherwise.
We are all in God's hands. He is the one who calls us by name and guides us in truth and love.

I am not called to judge my neighbours, or to threaten them with hell or anything else.
I am called to love my neighbours and to care for them.
As for their afterlife, I never stop praying for my non-believing friends, colleagues, family members and neighbours, begging God that he may show them the way.
If is a small way I can be part of that process, then I gladly do so - but I will not try to BE GOD!

Allah alim

Salaam to you, sister :)
People should be warned that they will go to Hell if they don't repent. You say it doesn't go very far, then you are being critical of the Prophets warning people that they will also go to Hell, so then you are saying that;-

-God should not have told people about Hell?
-Prophet Noah peace be upon him should not have told infidels constantly, that if they don't repent they will go to Hell?
-Prophet Lut peace be upon him should not have told infidels constantly, that if they don't repent they will go to Hell?
-Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him should not have told infidels constantly, that if they don't repent they will go to Hell?

Clearly changing the message of Islam, the message provided by Allah, by all the Prophets. Muslims would never listen to your rubbish, evil accepting, rejecting what the Prophets have taught us. We Muslims would NEVER accept what your saying over what the Prophet Jesus, Noah, Lut, Ibrahim peace be upon them had taught us.

Plus if Prophet Noah peace be upon them came to the infidels and never mentioned about Hell, they would never have been taken by the flood.

Why do you think that Allah destroyed them? Because they were rejecting being kind to each other?
Allah destroyed them as they did not worship him and remember the Day of Judgement and Hell.


I don't accept Christianity promotes people going to Hell-from the public, masses opinion in the European countries, I am aware that there are differences in USA etc, but as explained they are still looking for the life of this world. They are a sinful people and after people respecting them, and looking to them. As explaiend on the other thread "Love, love say the Christians (but I say they are liars").

It is a sinful act to say to people to stop worshipping our Creator and to worship idols.

In Chrisitanity they have accepted that;-

-Prophet Jesus peace be upon him bowed down and prayed to Allah, we are doing the same thing.
-All the Prophets sacrificed animals and bowed down to Allah, and fasted.

Clearly changing their religion for the life of this world. So it is not about differences between Islam and Christianity, it is the fact that they changed their what all the Prophets have taught them.

1. Sinful people keep on quoting "Allah is my judge", Allah has already taught us of what he accepts or does not, he is not going to surprise the Muslims on the Day of Judgement and say idol worship is acceptable. He has already taught us of why people go to Hell, to avoid going there.

-I do not need to wait till the Day of Judgment to know that idol worship is a sin, if they do not repent they will go to Hell
-I do not need to wait till the Day of judgement to know that homosexuality is a sin, if they do not repent they will go to Hell.
-I do not need to wait till the Day of Judgement to know if they have not repented they are going to Hell.

I don't need to understand infidels better, frankly I already do, and I understand that if you were born a donkey, your life would have been better, as at least your not commiting idol worship and going to Hell if you don't repent.


So repent, become a Muslim, if you do not then you will go to Hell.

Plus I'm no sister of infidels.
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Argamemnon
06-25-2010, 06:39 PM
"As to those who reject faith, it is same to them, you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe"
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glo
06-25-2010, 06:48 PM
Sister h-n, I cannot really reply to your post appropriately, because forum rules do not allow me to speak about my faith in terms which may be interpreted to 'promote religions other that Isam'.

Any Christians threatening non-Christians with hell if they do not convert to Christianity would last in this forum for about 5 minutes ... :D ... so there really isn't much point in you suggesting to Christians here that they should do so.

As I said, I am not one to threaten people with hell, and I don't think it is my role to do so.
People do need to repent ... but God in his mercy and love will lead them to do so willingly, rather than out of terror and fear!
People do need to change their ways ... but I see them doing so quite naturally and joyfully once they understand and realise the great mercy and love of our Creator for us!
People will be judged according to their deeds ... but if they have followed God's instructions to treat each other with love, care and kindness, then hopefully God will be pleased with us.


I do not wish to debate with you, sister.
If you tried to understand Christianity better, you would probably realise just how many values and beliefs out faiths share! :statisfie

Let us just offer each other a sign of peace and say "Lakum deenukum waliya deen"
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glo
06-25-2010, 06:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
"As to those who reject faith, it is same to them, you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe"
Exactly!
We are in God's hands, and he will guide us as he sees fit.
God knows best.
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Supreme
06-25-2010, 06:59 PM
I think glo's post sums my thoughts up. 'Convert or go to Hell' seems like a method designed to bully and coerce people into accepting a belief or ideology, and there is no way I will be bullied into believing something, particularly something I regard as inherently false. Moreover, not only do I find the concept of God being a bully intrinsically difficult to accept, I have little interest in offering my worship to such a God. This is why many religions creep me out to no end, and why I shudder with revulsion when I see people refering to themselves as slaves of God, as worthless trash sanctified by His Grace alone, who look forward to an eternity of prostrating themselves in gratefulness for being kept out of the Cosmic Auschwitz that houses most of mankind.
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h-n
06-25-2010, 07:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Sister h-n, I cannot really reply to your post appropriately, because forum rules do not allow me to speak about my faith in terms which may be interpreted to 'promote religions other that Isam'.

Any Christians threatening non-Christians with hell if they do not convert to Christianity would last in this forum for about 5 minutes ... :D ... so there really isn't much point in you suggesting to Christians here that they should do so.

As I said, I am not one to threaten people with hell, and I don't think it is my role to do so.
People do need to repent ... but God in his mercy and love will lead them to do so willingly, rather than out of terror and fear!
People do need to change their ways ... but I see them doing so quite naturally and joyfully once they understand and realise the great mercy and love of our Creator for us!
People will be judged according to their deeds ... but if they have followed God's instructions to treat each other with love, care and kindness, then hopefully God will be pleased with us.

I do not wish to debate with you, sister.
If you tried to understand Christianity better, you would probably realise just how many values and beliefs out faiths share! :statisfie

Let us just offer each other a sign of peace and say "Lakum deenukum waliya deen"
Typical infidel, rejecting what all the Prophets have taught and then talking about just being kind to each other, then you say I don't understand what your teaching? That is exactly what I have mentioned in my other thread "Love, love say the Christians (but I say that they are liars!), that your talking about being kind to each other and not heeding the warnings.

Again the people at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him were destroyed because they rejected Allah and the Day of Judgement and the warnings of Hell NOT because they didn't want to be nice to each other.

Satan is nice to evil doers, that is not a pleasing thing. Why bother you might as well start talking about getting along with Satan and talking about love, kindness blah, blah, blah.

Prophet Moses peace be upon him did not come down the mountain to talk about love with the idol worshippers

As stated in my other thread, Christians are being evil, they quote love when they ignore Allah.

There is only tolerance, with idol worshippers. Even our children are taught not to make fun out of the Christians for rubbish written in the bible.

We don't share anything. A Christian male is no way in comparison to a Muslim Man, as he worships Allah, forbids evil and enjoins good, does not change Islam.

I'll leave to say that if you don't repent you will go to Hell. You have this warning on your record on the Day of Judgement, and if you have not repented you will go to Hell.
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h-n
06-25-2010, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
I think glo's post sums my thoughts up. 'Convert or go to Hell' seems like a method designed to bully and coerce people into accepting a belief or ideology, and there is no way I will be bullied into believing something, particularly something I regard as inherently false. Moreover, not only do I find the concept of God being a bully intrinsically difficult to accept, I have little interest in offering my worship to such a God. This is why many religions creep me out to no end, and why I shudder with revulsion when I see people refering to themselves as slaves of God, as worthless trash sanctified by His Grace alone, who look forward to an eternity of prostrating themselves in gratefulness for being kept out of the Cosmic Auschwitz that houses most of mankind.
I love Allah!

Also see you on the Day of Judgement and if you have not repented and neither has glo, not only will you be agreeing with her but going to Hell with her.

When somebody buys you something, do you not say thank-you to that person, or do they creep you out?
If someone saves your life do you not say thank-you to that person, or do they creep you out?
Why bother thanking your parents for taking care of you, and that you will ALWAYS be grateful and be there for them in your lifetime, or do your parents creep you out?

Allah has provided you with everything, your parents are nothing in comparison.

I am a servant of Allah, so are all the angels, creatures etc. We are happy, and content with our Lord, and this is the best of positions.

So you find that being grateful to Allah difficult now? Nay what it is, that people in the past even at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him rejected and Hell too, when Allah reminded them that he sends down the rains and provides everything, you are doing no different. Holding on to the life of this world.
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h-n
06-25-2010, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
"As to those who reject faith, it is same to them, you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe"
Thank-you, for quoting that from the Quran.
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h-n
06-25-2010, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Exactly!
We are in God's hands, and he will guide us as he sees fit.
God knows best.
He's already sent Prophets to guide you, but you do not pay heed.
Allah has already taught us what is best for us, that to worship him only, to remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell.
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glo
06-25-2010, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
As stated in my other thread, Christians are being evil.
I guess there is not much left to say then.

I wish you God's peace and joy.:inshallah
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Supreme
06-25-2010, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
Also see you on the Day of Judgement and if you have not repented and neither has glo, not only will you be agreeing with her but going to Hell with her.
Ohh, scary threat is scary! Fortunately, I do not believe in a place called 'Hell', at least not the horrifying place that the Abrahamic religions adopted from the pagan myths conjured up millennia ago in order to keep people praying, giving money and respecting the authority of their half god, half man rulers/ 'god chosen' kings. Nevertheless, such an argument is futile, as I do indeed repent daily for my sins, as I'm sure glo does.

When somebody buys you something, do you not say thank-you to that person, or do they creep you out?
If someone saves your life do you not say thank-you to that person, or do they creep you out?
Of course I do; but I thank them out of common courtesy and etiquette, not out of fear. Do you see the difference?

Why bother thanking your parents for taking care of you, and that you will ALWAYS be grateful and be there for them in your lifetime, or do your parents creep you out?
Sorry, but this argument is ridiculous at best and incoherent at worst. Refer to previous point.
Allah has provided you with everything, your parents are nothing in comparison.
I know, and I am grateful. But I am grateful out of respect, not out of fear of spending infinity burning in a cave underground.

I am a servant of Allah, so are all the angels, creatures etc. We are happy, and content with our Lord, and this is the best of positions.
But this position makes no sense; how can you be serving anyone but yourself when you repent and thus recieve a 'get out of Hell free' card? You're certainly not a slave if you're rewarded, and neither are you a slave when you only work for your own interests, and not the interests of the one you're slaving for.

So you find that being grateful to Allah difficult now? Nay what it is, that people in the past even at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him rejected and Hell too, when Allah reminded them that he sends down the rains and provides everything, you are doing no different. Holding on to the life of this world.
I'm not sure what this nonsense even means, however, I've lost any faith it'll help your argument come across as any more fathomable.
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h-n
06-25-2010, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Ohh, scary threat is scary! Fortunately, I do not believe in a place called 'Hell', at least not the horrifying place that the Abrahamic religions adopted from the pagan myths conjured up millennia ago in order to keep people praying, giving money and respecting the authority of their half god, half man rulers/ 'god chosen' kings. Nevertheless, such an argument is futile, as I do indeed repent daily for my sins, as I'm sure glo does.

Of course I do; but I thank them out of common courtesy and etiquette, not out of fear. Do you see the difference?

Sorry, but this argument is ridiculous at best and incoherent at worst. Refer to previous point.

I know, and I am grateful. But I am grateful out of respect, not out of fear of spending infinity burning in a cave underground.

But this position makes no sense; how can you be serving anyone but yourself when you repent and thus recieve a 'get out of Hell free' card? You're certainly not a slave if you're rewarded, and neither are you a slave when you only work for your own interests, and not the interests of the one you're slaving for.

I'm not sure what this nonsense even means, however, I've lost any faith it'll help your argument come across as any more fathomable.
You say that people invent Islam, and a God, whilst you call yourself "supreme"??? What are you a supreme of? Nothing.

There is definitely a Hell, and I look forward to what you have to say about it when you are on the Day of Judgement. People are sent to Hell, as they rejected Islam. They deserve to go to Hell for their sins. You are the fuels of the fire Allah is not going to throw wood in there to keep it a light-you are the fuel! What you have done and said, as allowed those flames to surround you.

1. If you rejected Allah in Paradise you deserve to be sent to Hell.

2. If a beautiful woman came down from Paradise and you just said its OK that you take off your clothes and be lewd, you are proving that you are not good enough to go to Paradise so go to Hell.

3. If a child came from Paradise and you just fed them pork and said its OK to get drunk, you are proving that you are not good enough to go to Paradise.

4. If a Man came down from Paradise and you said its OK to accept homosexuality, then you are proving that you don't deserve to go to Paradise.

5. So the test in this world is brought to this world, if you won't accept Allah, won't treat others with respect and won't forbid evil and won't enjoin good, then you are proving that you cannot treat people in this world better, then you don't deserve to be surrounded by the best of people in Paradise. AS per the thread I've already written on "Satan refusing to prostrate" which covers about testing.


Allah does not wrong them, they sinful people wrong themselves -hence Hell. Just like if a person drinks alcohol and their kidney's don't work, or if they are being lewd and catch HIV, they have done that to themselves. Hell, you are the fuels of the fire, this is what you have done to yourselves.

So Hell is in response to your evil actions. People just quote any jargon that they hear from one person who is a non-Muslim and people like you quote it over and over again to try and go against Islam. So many threads are written about Hell, but you didn't write your rubbish there to question it!!! Just typical sinners just trying to throw anything to go against Islam.

People like you and in the past rejected the truth, for the life of this world. When Hell was mentioned they rejected it, so they wouldn't think about the consquences of their actions of rejecting the one God, and the Day of Judgement. What do you think was going to happen? If Hell stops people from repenting (which is a stupid thing to say, as its not Hell, but the choices that they are making, just like people who take drugs etc), that Allah is going to get rid of Hell? Would no one be commiting a sin if he did? No as they reject Islam for the life of this world. Even if he had got rid of Hell, you and others would still be rejecting Islam!! ;D Hell they have received warnings for, just as people receive warnings when they smoke and drink, and take drugs etc, they still do it knowing it can cause them harm, but they ignore the warnings to avoid thinking of the consquences and just carry on living their rubbish life just as infidels do. So Hell is there, heed the warning or not, that is upto everybody to choose the path to Paradise or Hell.


What do you expect Muslims to do? Complain that you and other sinners are going to be sent to Hell if they don't repent? What an earth are you trying to imply, that we Muslims cannot accept that homosexuals, lewd people, idol worshippers etc are going to be sent to Hell? You think that were going to question if Islam is right just because the likes of you would be sent to Hell if you don't repent?? What a fool!!;D

You are not better then Prophet Jesus, Ibrahim, Noah, Lut peace be upon them etc. No Muslim is interested in what you have to say.

How much meat you stuff your face with, and you give no thanks to God. +o(
How much fruit and vegetables you stuff your face with, and you give no thanks to God. +o(

Its not the worst argument, we still stay and look after our parents-its a life time commitment, and Allah provides everything, so as we are grateful to our parents, it makes sense for people to see that we owe Allah everything and to give our thanks to him.

Your not more important then anyone else that Allah has destroyed. These countries are being destroyed right now. I thank Allah for that.

Don't repent, I don't care, I'm not going to get upset, and cry for you if you don't make it to Paradise. Also this warning is again written on your record, and if you have not repented it will be held against you that h-n told you about Hell that you did not heed the warning.

I am Allah's servant, and this is the best position in this world and the hereafter.
I love Allah, he is All-Mighty, All-Wise, All-knowing, All-Hearing, All-seeing, My Lord, My Master, Allah. All praise is due to him alone. I am a Muslim and I say that there is only one God, Allah and that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah.

:popcorn:
Reply

h-n
06-25-2010, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I guess there is not much left to say then.

I wish you God's peace and joy.:inshallah
Bye, and we Muslims don't need infidels to wish that Allah provides us with peace and joy.
Reply

Zafran
06-26-2010, 12:53 AM
salaam

to supreme - I thought you were a christian

to H-N - why are using the word "infidel" when it isnt even Islamic - Its a christain term that was used for the muslims during the crusades.

peace
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

to supreme - I thought you were a christian

to H-N - why are using the word "infidel" when it isnt even Islamic - Its a christain term that was used for the muslims during the crusades.

peace
As I'm talking in the language that they understand, infidel meaning a sinful person. That's like saying I can't use the word Devil, I have to use the word Shaytaan. Or I can't use the word "evil".

Sister h-n.
Reply

Zafran
06-26-2010, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
As I'm talking in the language that they understand, infidel meaning a sinful person. That's like saying I can't use the word Devil, I have to use the word Shaytaan. Or I can't use the word "evil".

Sister h-n.
salaam


so whats your point of this thread - for Dawah or to scare people away from Islam??
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam


so whats your point of this thread - for Dawah or to scare people away from Islam??

i have already explained myself, I am doing neither of the above.<_< The point of this thread was to let people know that you don't repent just because someone is being nice to you, you repent because you want Allah to be pleased with you and not to go to Hell with the losers. That is why the magicians still repented even though they had their hands and feet chopped off. You are obviously carrying the same misconceptions, from the west. I have explained that in "KIndness", this thread, and also "love, Love say the Christians (and I say that they are liars).

So contact the Moderator with your complaints, instead of posting anymore to tell people your not actually reading my threads and just being critical. That explains why you haven't been critical of anything I said, just how I say things. Which again complain to the Moderator as I am not interested in the slightest of your complaints. I don't think I should have all my threads turned in a discussion of how I write directly about things.

Or create your own threads and ask for non-Muslims to join you and not pay attention to me. I don't have a problem with that either.


I am actually being better, as I could have gone into the comparitive section and you'll notice the difference etc, if you think this is worse, well it isn't. Anyone who has been on Ummah can tell you that. Yes, I have spoken to many non-Muslims who were wasting the time of Muslims. Or maybe I should just go into the comparitive section and then you can complain on how I treat non-Muslims who waste the time of Muslims, by not sincerely learning about Islam.
Reply

ardianto
06-26-2010, 03:37 PM
:sl: , sister h-n.

If your method in giving dawah is like this, I am not sure non-Muslims will have an interest to come to Islam.

:)
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
:sl: , sister h-n.

If your method in giving dawah is like this, I am not sure non-Muslims will have an interest to come to Islam.

:)

Again, being critical of how I write then what I say, complain to the Moderator.

You obviously haven't read what I have written, then you wouldn't be quoting Dawah, and about them being put off when they are liars.

Frankly there is nothing wrong with how I write. Who says I'm specifically talking to non-Muslims anyway?

Your behind, people have already been told to repent, we are not starting now, we are coming to the end of these countries. We are not starting from the beginning to introduce Islam to them. So don't bother talking to me, like if we are going to sit there talking about Islam in the long term, instead of the US, UK etc being destroyed. So I'm happy that I have placed the first thread on IB was "Collapse of these countries" which helps people to understand what I see, I am not responsible for them not reading it and then talk to me like they are going to teach me how to kindly speak to people. Read, do you really think that a Muslim could learn alot if they were unkind anyway? We don't stop talking about Islam to non-Muslims, but I am talking to Muslims now.

I have found that the Muslims who are critical of me, look less towards the Day of Judgement, the collapse of these countries, the Major signs of the Day of Judgemet then I do. I am not stupid to listen and follow somone who does not look towards the Day of Judgement more then I do.

Also Allah has stated of the people who rejected the clear proofs were sent to Hell. Anyone who isn't repenting, I'm not going to treat them like if they are innocent, after all the natural disasters etc. Is Allah going to call them innocent on the Day of Judgement for rejecting the signs?

I am writing about their misconceptions about people repenting to Allah, they don't repent just because someone is being nice to them.

Also read the other thread on Call to Muslims being one Ummah.


What is it that some of you Muslims don't understand, I am sharing what I know to help you be strong yourselves as when the Dajjal arrives etc ?

I said I don't want to argue with the Muslims. So instead of the Muslims complaining they should read what I have written before complaining about it.
Reply

Supreme
06-26-2010, 08:58 PM
to supreme - I thought you were a christian
...yes, I am. Hence my Way of Life reading 'Christian'.
Reply

cat eyes
06-26-2010, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
:sl: , sister h-n.

If your method in giving dawah is like this, I am not sure non-Muslims will have an interest to come to Islam.

:)
the best tact to use is kindness however there is different tactic to use for dawah and being kind is just one in a long list.
Reply

kite runner
06-26-2010, 09:37 PM
mashallah!! great post :D
Reply

marwen
06-26-2010, 10:15 PM
@ sister h-n :

I liked all you long threads, they reflect a great knowledge about islam, and I admire your franchise as well and your courage to say always the truth.

I want just to add a side-note to this thread so we all muslims remember one thing : That the islamic speech should have three different forms - though it should always be based on truth - depending on who is addressed by our speech :

1) if we are talking to muslims, then our arguments should be based on islamic proofs, using the qur'an and the ahadeeth, and mentioning fatwas of reliable muslim scholars, and we don't forget to be tender and kind with our muslim brothers and sisters. True muslims will obey if you advice them with arguments coming from Allah's book and from the Prophet peace and blessing be upon him.
(I learned on this forum to not say PBUH, but to say it in full words source..).

2) if we are talking to non-muslims who are peaceful and in a context of da'wah, we should be kind in our discussion : not insult them, not despise their beliefs. All we can do is to call them gently and ask them to think about logical arguments and show them what's wrong with their beliefs and what should be the truth. In this case, islamic arguments from qur'an and sunnah won't be so understandable by non-muslims as a first step, because they simply don't believe the qur'an is the words of Allah. We should have a methodology with priorities :
a) show them the existence of Allah.
b) the uniqueness of Allah : just One God.
c) the truth about Prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him, and all the other prophets Alayhum Assalam.
d) the qur'an is sent to us by Allah through his messenger Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him.
e) the basics of Islam.

3) if we are talking with non-muslims who are aggressive and hurting muslims, we should forget about da'wah in this case until the aggression is over : as defending muslim rights is a priority. And we should talk with the aggressors with a hard tone to show them that we don't accept to be attacked. However we should keep our reaction within islamic recommendation : our reaction should be proportional to the aggression we suffered (the eye by the eye, the tooth by the tooth, etc.).

But we also should not forget that all our actions should be for the sake of Allah, not to retaliate for our dignity, we should be slaves of Allah and we must follow our prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him, because he never took revenge for himself, he just defended the word of Allah.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:21 PM
^ subhanAllah brother! :statisfie very enlightening!

And great work sis h-n! :)
Reply

Supreme
06-26-2010, 10:34 PM
You say that people invent Islam, and a God, whilst you call yourself "supreme"??? What are you a supreme of? Nothing.
It's a username. Don't look too much into it.

There is definitely a Hell, and I look forward to what you have to say about it when you are on the Day of Judgement. People are sent to Hell, as they rejected Islam. They deserve to go to Hell for their sins. You are the fuels of the fire Allah is not going to throw wood in there to keep it a light-you are the fuel! What you have done and said, as allowed those flames to surround you.
Oh, I understand that Islam (and to an extent, Christianity) posits that people are going to eternally burn in excrutiating pain for simply believing something different. It also destroys any notion of a just God; if God was omniscient, He would almost certainly know what it would take to turn me to His 'true' religion- however, if he does not choose to act on this knowledge, and sends me to Hell for His own failings to fully alert me of His 'true' religion, than he is not just.

Allah does not wrong them, they sinful people wrong themselves -hence Hell. Just like if a person drinks alcohol and their kidney's don't work, or if they are being lewd and catch HIV, they have done that to themselves. Hell, you are the fuels of the fire, this is what you have done to yourselves.
Again, what kind of just God kills someone for their sins and then sends them to Hell afterwards? Talk about adding insult to injury...


People like you and in the past rejected the truth, for the life of this world. When Hell was mentioned they rejected it, so they wouldn't think about the consquences of their actions of rejecting the one God, and the Day of Judgement. What do you think was going to happen? If Hell stops people from repenting (which is a stupid thing to say, as its not Hell, but the choices that they are making, just like people who take drugs etc), that Allah is going to get rid of Hell? Would no one be commiting a sin if he did? No as they reject Islam for the life of this world. Even if he had got rid of Hell, you and others would still be rejecting Islam!!
You just don't get it, do you? You've yet to find me any evidence that this Hell of yours even exists. People aren't going to be scared of something they render false; I don't see Hell as any more real, realistic or even logical than Hogwarts from Harry Potter.

Hell they have received warnings for, just as people receive warnings when they smoke and drink, and take drugs etc, they still do it knowing it can cause them harm, but they ignore the warnings to avoid thinking of the consquences and just carry on living their rubbish life just as infidels do. So Hell is there, heed the warning or not, that is upto everybody to choose the path to Paradise or Hell.
Actually, the Islamic concept of Paradise seems thoroughly uninviting. I have no desire of having (sexually immoral!) intercourse with 72 virgins, or spending eternity prostrating in thanks to a diety lacking in self esteem: it all seems rather dull.

You are not better then Prophet Jesus, Ibrahim, Noah, Lut peace be upon them etc. No Muslim is interested in what you have to say.
Then why are you quoting my posts, if what I have to say is of no interest to you? How irrational!


Its not the worst argument, we still stay and look after our parents-its a life time commitment, and Allah provides everything, so as we are grateful to our parents, it makes sense for people to see that we owe Allah everything and to give our thanks to him.
I give thanks and repent in my prayers daily.
Don't repent, I don't care, I'm not going to get upset, and cry for you if you don't make it to Paradise.
Likewise.
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
the best tact to use is kindness however there is different tactic to use for dawah and being kind is just one in a long list.
Thanks for willing to mention that, as of course Allah even provided plagues to the people of Egypt as a warning.
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by kite runner
mashallah!! great post :D
Thank-you for taking the time to read it and for letting me know. :)
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
@ sister h-n :

I liked all you long threads, they reflect a great knowledge about islam, and I admire your franchise as well and your courage to say always the truth.

I want just to add a side-note to this thread so we all muslims remember one thing : That the islamic speech should have three different forms - though it should always be based on truth - depending on who is addressed by our speech :

1) if we are talking to muslims, then our arguments should be based on islamic proofs, using the qur'an and the ahadeeth, and mentioning fatwas of reliable muslim scholars, and we don't forget to be tender and kind with our muslim brothers and sisters. True muslims will obey if you advice them with arguments coming from Allah's book and from the Prophet peace and blessing be upon him.
(I learned on this forum to not say PBUH, but to say it in full words source..).

2) if we are talking to non-muslims who are peaceful and in a context of da'wah, we should be kind in our discussion : not insult them, not despise their beliefs. All we can do is to call them gently and ask them to think about logical arguments and show them what's wrong with their beliefs and what should be the truth. In this case, islamic arguments from qur'an and sunnah won't be so understandable by non-muslims as a first step, because they simply don't believe the qur'an is the words of Allah. We should have a methodology with priorities :
a) show them the existence of Allah.
b) the uniqueness of Allah : just One God.
c) the truth about Prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him, and all the other prophets Alayhum Assalam.
d) the qur'an is sent to us by Allah through his messenger Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him.
e) the basics of Islam.

3) if we are talking with non-muslims who are aggressive and hurting muslims, we should forget about da'wah in this case until the aggression is over : as defending muslim rights is a priority. And we should talk with the aggressors with a hard tone to show them that we don't accept to be attacked. However we should keep our reaction within islamic recommendation : our reaction should be proportional to the aggression we suffered (the eye by the eye, the tooth by the tooth, etc.).

But we also should not forget that all our actions should be for the sake of Allah, not to retaliate for our dignity, we should be slaves of Allah and we must follow our prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him, because he never took revenge for himself, he just defended the word of Allah.
Salam,

Thanks for taking the time to read them. I don't have any problems with your advice. Just that people should just complain to the Moderator instead of complaining how I write on my threads. After reading "Calling Muslims to be an Ummah" helped for me, so am avoiding arguments.

I have learnt by reading the Quran at home, remembering Allah and the Day of Judgement. I have not used any Scholars to understand Islam. Even some people did not believe me on Ummah, but I asked them were I would have copied them from as they do read from many Scholars, which I got no response. They can have that confirmed on the Day of Judgement. I have used one link for the Major signs of the Day of Judgement thread on there. But no one has taught me not to think about building a Muslim state.


I do not usually quote hadiths etc, as majority its about how to live in this world, and really I don't like looking towards living in this world. I don't change religion, I accept the hadiths etc. But I rarely talk about how to live in this world.

I am happy to share, as everything is from Allah. What we know about will be talked about on the Day of Judgement. Islam is simple, and if anybody gives thought on it, can understand what I had written, and say oh yes, that is easy. Best to learn and read for a short amount of time, instead of spending years asking the same question because you couldn't be bothered to read it.

So thank-you, I appreciate it.

Sister h-n
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 11:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
It's a username. Don't look too much into it.



Oh, I understand that Islam (and to an extent, Christianity) posits that people are going to eternally burn in excrutiating pain for simply believing something different. It also destroys any notion of a just God; if God was omniscient, He would almost certainly know what it would take to turn me to His 'true' religion- however, if he does not choose to act on this knowledge, and sends me to Hell for His own failings to fully alert me of His 'true' religion, than he is not just.



Again, what kind of just God kills someone for their sins and then sends them to Hell afterwards? Talk about adding insult to injury...




You just don't get it, do you? You've yet to find me any evidence that this Hell of yours even exists. People aren't going to be scared of something they render false; I don't see Hell as any more real, realistic or even logical than Hogwarts from Harry Potter.



Actually, the Islamic concept of Paradise seems thoroughly uninviting. I have no desire of having (sexually immoral!) intercourse with 72 virgins, or spending eternity prostrating in thanks to a diety lacking in self esteem: it all seems rather dull.


Then why are you quoting my posts, if what I have to say is of no interest to you? How irrational!



I give thanks and repent in my prayers daily.

Likewise.
The very God who created you. I can equally look at your existence as a disgusting or a beautiful one.

Whatever God does is right and good. Good is defined by God, not outside of God.
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
^ subhanAllah brother! :statisfie very enlightening!

And great work sis h-n! :)
Thanks An33za. :)
Reply

h-n
06-26-2010, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
It's a username. Don't look too much into it.
Oh, I understand that Islam (and to an extent, Christianity) posits that people are going to eternally burn in excrutiating pain for simply believing something different. It also destroys any notion of a just God; if God was omniscient, He would almost certainly know what it would take to turn me to His 'true' religion- however, if he does not choose to act on this knowledge, and sends me to Hell for His own failings to fully alert me of His 'true' religion, than he is not just.
Again, what kind of just God kills someone for their sins and then sends them to Hell afterwards? Talk about adding insult to injury...
You just don't get it, do you? You've yet to find me any evidence that this Hell of yours even exists. People aren't going to be scared of something they render false; I don't see Hell as any more real, realistic or even logical than Hogwarts from Harry Potter.
Actually, the Islamic concept of Paradise seems thoroughly uninviting. I have no desire of having (sexually immoral!) intercourse with 72 virgins, or spending eternity prostrating in thanks to a diety lacking in self esteem: it all seems rather dull.
Then why are you quoting my posts, if what I have to say is of no interest to you? How irrational!
I give thanks and repent in my prayers daily.
Likewise.
Right so you just sit there and the first username that comes to your head is "Supreme" ???? There's definitely something wrong with that.

Your a joke, you keep on blaming Allah if you go to Hell, when your own actions have sent you there, that is what you have done to yourself.

Allah is Merciful, you going to Hell if you don't repent does not change that.
Allah is Merciful, a person being malicious does not change that.

I have written on tests, ie this thread, "Murder", "Satan refusing to prostrate" and "Show me, Show me (but we're humans)" threads

If you were in Paradise and you said I don't like Allah, then why should you be kept there??? So you deserve to be thrown out, why should you be thrown out to another world still provided by Allah??

You say you believe a God, what and earth are you learning what would happen to sinful people? That Allah was going to treat them to some ice-cream? I suggest you read what a person has written before making the same dribble over and over again. Why should Alalh continue to let someone live as they want if they refuse to accept him. Would you be saying that the angels are oppressed too? We are happy with Allah. You say you worship God, but you can't say what happens to sinful people? Just open your own thread to let people know.

Nevermind about virgins or their numbers, you probably never met one. Of course they aren't used to marrying Virgins as much in the West, considering its also about behaviour, as virgins were shy and not liking to show their nakedness. Nowadays they are happy to sit and show their bodies so they teach females also to already be lewd before having sex. Also I have written the "Society evil" thread. I can see that in the West people are willing to have sex with many people, and females trying to take someone's else's husband knowing that he has children and married. So they are happy to share their Males with other females. Also that all Males who reject Allah, the Day of Judgement, in Paradise and Hell are just boring, and sissys compared to a Muslim Man, so again you don't have to concern yourself with marrying, as if you did get married to a pious women she would have told you to shut up about your dribble.

We Muslims are also happy to save ourselves from Hell, so to not stand with people like yourselves, Pharoah, etc.

I'm quoting what your writing as to respond to your posts.

Oh good, so no need to post anymore dribble. In future just open your own threads.
Reply

titus
06-27-2010, 04:22 AM
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

........

[16:125} You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.

.....

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

[29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

.......

So tell me, h-n, why the obvious antagonism and hatred of non-Muslims? Why do you insult people simply because they do not share your beliefs?

I shall keep you in mind the next time some nice Muslim is trying to convince me what a wonderful existence it would be live under Khilafah. I will remind them that no matter what promises they make and how they envision it, at some point it will come under the rule of people like h-n and life for non-Muslims would become a living hell.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 05:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

........

[16:125} You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.

.....

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

[29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

.......

So tell me, h-n, why the obvious antagonism and hatred of non-Muslims? Why do you insult people simply because they do not share your beliefs?

I shall keep you in mind the next time some nice Muslim is trying to convince me what a wonderful existence it would be live under Khilafah. I will remind them that no matter what promises they make and how they envision it, at some point it will come under the rule of people like h-n and life for non-Muslims would become a living hell.
The thing is taht non-Muslims are fighting Muslims in one way or another. Its impossible to befriend them.
Reply

titus
06-27-2010, 05:15 AM
The thing is taht non-Muslims are fighting Muslims in one way or another. Its impossible to befriend them.
Sorry, but that is B.S.

If you want to treat everyone as your enemy then it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. You should be better and smarter than that.
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 05:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Sorry, but that is B.S.

If you want to treat everyone as your enemy then it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. You should be better and smarter than that.
Its BS just cuz you dont like it? Well Id need a more convincing reason to label something as BS.

Well, Muslims and non-Muslims are anti-thesis of each other. I dont see them to be friends. You make friendship with people who share things with you, with whom you feel a connection. I wonder what sort of a connection a God-fearing Muslim can feel with a non-Muslim?
Reply

titus
06-27-2010, 05:44 AM
Well, Muslims and non-Muslims are anti-thesis of each other.
That's not what the Quran says. In fact from what I know of the Quran it says quite the opposite.

The Quran allows marriage with non-Muslims and explicitly does not forbid friendship with non-Muslims. My question would be what sort of God-fearing Muslims would question the Quran by saying that non-Muslims and Muslims cannot befriend each other.

Its BS just cuz you dont like it? Well Id need a more convincing reason to label something as BS.
I got it from the Quran. Do you think I have misinterpreted it? Does the Quran forbid friendships between Muslims and non-Muslims?

From everything I have read Muhammad did not believe that all non-Muslims were his enemy, and he led people in battle, so why should you?

Believe it or not, not every non-Muslim is an enemy of Islam. If you believe everyone is your enemy then you need to get out more because you could not be more wrong.

Also, do not confuse "not believing in Islam" with "being and enemy of Islam". They are not the same.
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
That's not what the Quran says. In fact from what I know of the Quran it says quite the opposite.

The Quran allows marriage with non-Muslims and explicitly does not forbid friendship with non-Muslims. My question would be what sort of God-fearing Muslims would question the Quran by saying that non-Muslims and Muslims cannot befriend each other.



I got it from the Quran. Do you think I have misinterpreted it? Does the Quran forbid friendships between Muslims and non-Muslims?

From everything I have read Muhammad did not believe that all non-Muslims were his enemy, and he led people in battle, so why should you?

Believe it or not, not every non-Muslim is an enemy of Islam. If you believe everyone is your enemy then you need to get out more because you could not be more wrong.

Also, do not confuse "not believing in Islam" with "being and enemy of Islam". They are not the same.
as far as I am concerned, Muslim man can marry a monotheistic non-Muslim woman of Christian or Judaic faith. As far as I know, monotheism does not exist in the latter two religions anymore.

The non-Muslim rejects the God that a Muslim takes as Lord. In order to please our Lord as a Muslim, we should not be friend those who say vile things about our Lord and reject His existence and the final religion chosen by Him aka Islam.
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Lynx
06-27-2010, 07:12 AM
why doesn't monotheism exist in judaism anymore?
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
why doesn't monotheism exist in judaism anymore?
association of partners with God. Furthermore, its not the religion to reach God anymore, at least according to Quran, as it has been invalidated by Islam.
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Predator
06-27-2010, 11:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
association of partners with God. Furthermore, its not the religion to reach God anymore, at least according to Quran, as it has been invalidated by Islam.
Also the Jews have made their religion into a racial religion just like the Hindu Brahmins . You have to be born a Jew to be a Jew. They dont want us in their religion . All the /Jews want is political power and If you give them that , they would be happy

Islam is is open to everyone. The rich and the poor , The white and black


Furthermore, Prophet Muhammad

said in the Farewell Sermon :

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly.

Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves. .
Remember, one day you will appear before ALLAH and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone"
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h-n
06-27-2010, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

........

[16:125} You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.

.....

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

[29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

.......

So tell me, h-n, why the obvious antagonism and hatred of non-Muslims? Why do you insult people simply because they do not share your beliefs?

I shall keep you in mind the next time some nice Muslim is trying to convince me what a wonderful existence it would be live under Khilafah. I will remind them that no matter what promises they make and how they envision it, at some point it will come under the rule of people like h-n and life for non-Muslims would become a living hell.

You are not Muslims, I am not and never going to be your Sister unless you repent.

I am a woman, I don't speak softly if your not my husband, not like the western women, were they speak similar and treat even other Males the same way as they would do with their husbands.

You are not people of the scripture, you have to accept that there is one God and ascribe no partners to him and remember the Last Day and Paradise and Hell.

1. The first thread I posted on IB, is "Collapse of these countres" and then the "Major signs of the Day of Judgement". Good job too, as it shows where I stand, and it helps people to understand how I behave. :happy: We are not starting from the beginning to talk about Islam, we are coming to an end. There is not going to be an Islamic state, if you read those threads. I don't accept that view and I understand that some Muslims quote this, but they don't look towards the Day of Judgement. It is a FACT that these countries are finishing.

2. Shall I sit there with non-Muslims and plan to talk about Islam casually that they are going to learn in their own sweet time, when I have to get up tomorrow and leave them? Even my Muslim Brothers and Sisters will not just be sitting their with non-Muslims they have to join the Mahdi.

3. My threads are too the point, even though they are long, I believe that all of its relevant, as you don't have years and years to learn. So I am providing anyone who wishes to read to help them go through the Major signs of they Day of Judgement and of course to save themselves from the fire. As cars, mobiles, TV's aren't going to help you stand up to the Dajjal, but your steadfastness in Islam.

4. If I find that there are non-Muslims who are wasting time with my Muslim Brothers and Sisters, I have on Ummah, frankly told them off. As I am like protecting my Muslims Brothers and Sisters from wasting their time-this is they only time they have to save themselves from the fires of Hell.

5. By the way, I already know how I come across, that's why I also thank Allah, that I didn't come on the internet years ago. Also you spoke kindly with my Muslim Brothers and Sisters and you did not learn much, and did not repent then, and now your trying to make an excuse that I am putting people off Islam. I know for a fact that I do not, its to the point thread, it helps people to learn quickly and efficiently. If they had something to say about the points that I made on my threads, they would have stated it, even if it was not targeted to them. They would have enjoyed pointing if I was wrong, like in the thread "No such things as Atheism". I look forward to you saying on the Day of Judgement, that non-Muslims are put off. You can't treat me like with other Muslims, as I remember all this is coming to an end, I am not a time waster. I remember that we don't have long. It's rather that they don't like hearing the truth, and wish that Muslims were weak like they are. They wish for us to reject Islam as they do. Plenty of non-Muslims who wasted their time trying to prove Muslims wrong, instead of learning about Islam. Its finishing. We won't be sitting here talking on the internet in the long term. Hence why I'm posting so many threads in one go, and I post if I think it would help people.

6. It's typical of non-Muslims to quickly complain if they aren't being treated "kindly", when they are happy to treat others in a lewd way, support homosexuality and reject Allah. If you die in your state, Allah is not going to call you an innocent soul. I find it laughable that people think to teach me about being kind-we will see on the Day of Judgement of who has been kind or not!

7. Actually it reminds me of a boy at School, he actually threw a pencil at me because of racism, we were sitting at the opposite ends of the room. Anyway, I picked the pencil up and said to him , that because he did not need his pencil, I will throw it in the bin, so I did. The look on is face, and you know what, he actually complained to the Teacher! I mean if anyone was going to complain it should have been me, but I didn't. He did, but I didn't get into trouble as the Teacher knew what happened. People complain about how I behave when they themselves are not good! That's what I find, and you know what when you get on the Day of Judgement, then we'll see who is kinder etc. Kindness is being truthful to people, that I won't be here that long, of course the Christians even say that the countries will come to an end. We will be joining with Prophet Jesus peace be upon him. So at least we are not lying to you and say we will be sitting there with you in the long term, is this not what evil people do, they waste people's time and then leave them, not being honest and upfront with them about their intentions.

If Prophet Jesus peace be upon him came right now, I would left and so would my other Muslims Brothers and Sisters, forget about work, selling our homes etc, just get up and leave. Of course this is not happening right now as per the "Major signs of the Day of Judgement" thread.

-If someone told you to concentrate on working, when this was your last day at work and your anxious to leave to go on holiday etc, then your not interested in talking as you would do if you were not leaving work.

-If this was your last day at work and your going off to live how you want and be happy, then your not interested in talking to people, or mentally thinking in a way when you are not leaving.

-if someone told you about Paradise, and you know that you are going, then you want to leave this world. This why is Muslims in the past and there are those today which did not care about building this and that. Nothing stopped them except that they looked towards leaving this world. A Muslims would not stay and build a Motherboard for a company rather then leaving this world.

-If I was alive at the time Prophet Noah peace be upon him, should I treat it as life is normal? Of course not, but get ready to leave.

-hence my behaviour is reflected as I know that these countries will be of no more. Also don't bother treating it like we are going to sit here like before talking about Islam. I am getting ready to leave this country, not sit here in the UK. I may not be alive when the Major signs of the Day of Judgement happen as I can die at anytime, but I am still not going to ignore what is happening. So again, what I see is written in the "Collapse of these countries" and the "Major signs of the Day of Judgement" thread.


So as above, no one can change how I am today, it is not rudeness, it is that I'm not wasting time and being to the point. I look towards the collapse of these countires, and the Major signs of the Day of Judgement, my behaviour is not wrong or worse then yours, even Allah said those people who think they were going to be OK and nothing is going to happen to them (in way of their nations being destroyed etc) were WRONG.

:popcorn:
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titus
06-27-2010, 12:33 PM
Also the Jews have made their religion into a racial religion just like the Hindu Brahmins . You have to be born a Jew to be a Jew.
Really? Because I know of many people that have converted to Judaism.

And do you think Christianity and Judaism are really that much different than when Muhammad was around? Did the things you associate with Christianity and Judaism not exist back then? Or do you think Muhammad was just unaware of such things?

Do you think Christians are not monotheistic because of the Trinity? Well, Christians believed in the the Trinity back then also, and Muhammad still considered them people of the book

What has happened is that people have come up with excuses to hate other religions and people have fallen for them.

I am a woman, I don't speak softly if your not my husband, not like the western women, were they speak similar and treat even other Males the same way as they would do with their husbands.
Not sure what you mean by that. If you are insinuating that non-Muslims women speak softly then you haven't met my wife.

Shall I sit there with non-Muslims and plan to talk about Islam casually that they are going to learn in their own sweet time, when I have to get up tomorrow and leave them?
Of course not. How silly of me. The obvious course of action is to berate them and insult them. That is how you will get them to repent.

I am sure you believe that Muhammad would be proud of you for being rude and refusing to befriend all non-Muslims.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus

Do you think Christians are not monotheistic because of the Trinity?
Yes.

Well, Christians believed in the the Trinity back then also, and Muhammad still considered them people of the book
You need to read christianity history 101.

What has happened is that people have come up with excuses to hate other religions and people have fallen for them.
I agree. You need to tell this to those rabid christian missionaries, christians who support invasion and occupation of Afghan and Iraq because of religion, zionists who see Islam as enemies and need to rid all palestinians from their own homes and land.

And then we can talk.
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titus
06-27-2010, 01:17 PM
You need to read christianity history 101
Really? Do you have sources that say that Christians 1400 years ago did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God?

The Quran even verifies that the Christians of the time considered Jesus to be the Son of God. This is nothing new.

The Quran says that Christians worship Jesus as the Son of God, yet also calls it a monotheistic religion.

I agree. You need to tell this to those rabid christian missionaries, christians who support invasion and occupation of Afghan and Iraq because of religion, zionists who see Islam as enemies and need to rid all palestinians from their own homes and land.

And then we can talk.
So you deny friendship to all based on the actions of some?

That is just as irrational as someone hating all Muslims because 9/11 or Mumbai.

I am sorry, but in this case two wrongs don't make a right.
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titus
06-27-2010, 03:41 PM
I am thankful that I had Muslim friends before I began visiting this board otherwise my opinion of Muslims and Islam would be very different.
If this site was my introduction to Islam I would believe that Islam teaches that non-muslims are all liars and fools and that Muslims should treat them all as enemies and that Muslims should not be friendly to non-muslims.

I would then feel empathy with those that say that Islam promotes hatred and that Islam is the enemy because that it what Muslims here say is the case. After all it is only rational to fear such a large group that openly voices their disdain for all people who do not share their specific beliefs.

Thankfully the Muslims I know personally are not that narrow minded. They portray a positive image of Islam in their actions and deeds. They are kind to me. I know I can rely on their help if I need it (which I have) and they can rely on me if they need it (which they have).

They tell me that the Quran does not teach hatred. The posters on this forum say otherwise.

Who should I believe?
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Really? Do you have sources that say that Christians 1400 years ago did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God?
the council of nicea (4th century) voted to make Jesus as god and established trinity.
There were still christians (followers of jesus pbuh teachings, and not christians as understood now) who believed in one God and Jesus pbuh as His prophet and messenger, eg. the arians. But the roman christians prosecuted them.

[quote}The Quran even verifies that the Christians of the time considered Jesus to be the Son of God. This is nothing new.[/quote]

The Qur'an indeed tells of the allegation made that Jesus to be the son of god. But the Qur'an did not say that ALL christians at that time consider Jesus pbuh as the son of God.


The Quran says that Christians worship Jesus as the Son of God, yet also calls it a monotheistic religion.
give me those Qur'an verses.
Or do all christians make it ok to change verses from scriptures?
This explains how Jesus pbuh teachings were twisted.


So you deny friendship to all based on the actions of some?
where did I say that?


I am sorry, but in this case two wrongs don't make a right.
I am sorry but statistics show that christians have killed millions of muslims alone in the past century, and then now claiming innocence?

How munafiqoon!
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ardianto
06-27-2010, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
Again, being critical of how I write then what I say, complain to the Moderator.
You can't do an action from your personal initiative then say "If you want to complain, complain to ...., not to me". You can't start something but force someone else to finish it.

Run from responsibility is incorrect according Islamic etiquette (adab).

Just remind you, sister. :)
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h-n
06-27-2010, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Really? Because I know of many people that have converted to Judaism.

Not sure what you mean by that. If you are insinuating that non-Muslims women speak softly then you haven't met my wife.

Of course not. How silly of me. The obvious course of action is to berate them and insult them. That is how you will get them to repent.

I am sure you believe that Muhammad would be proud of you for being rude and refusing to befriend all non-Muslims.
1. We talk formally, not nicely so people would think I am their friend. If this was not a problem, then you wouldn't be complaining about it in the first place.

2. I am to the point, what do you expect us to do, say to the non-Muslims that we are your friends and then the next hour we have to join the Mahdi, so we are not your friends now?

We are not friends with non-Muslims and never will be.

Also there are Chrsitians who never worshipped Prophet Jesus peace be upon him and that even there are those who still don't today.

The Jews never said to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him that he is the same as them nor did the Christians so who are you todoy??

Islam is perfect, worship the one God and remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell.

If any Prophet was alive today, they would be saying to people to repent to Allah and remember the Day of Judgement. They would not be teaching the relgious to be friends with infidels.

Prophet Noah peace be upon him did not teach people to be friends with infidels
Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him did not teach people to be friends with infidels.

We tolerate people only.

You say you have Muslim friends, then ask them this, that when the Dajjal is here, and that you are not a Muslim would they still be your friend??? If they are truly your friend then they would say yes.

When did Prophet Noah peace be upon him say to the sinful, that I am your friend but I'm going to leave you to drown?

Its hilarious you quote Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him (when again if any Prophet was in this world, they wouldn't tell us to be friends with infidels) and how Muslims are supposed to be, you are typically as sinners, just care about people being nice to you, is this not what evil people do? Even lewd females who don't repent, just asking to find the next Male who will be "nice" to them. AS explained plenty of times in "Non-Muslims and Islam", "Kindness" etc we don't just sit there being kind to people for the sake of it, we do it because we respect that they belong to Allah, but when they turn their backs on Allah, why should we treat them as one of the inhabitants of Paradise? You already know how good people are and still refuse to repent, looking for the life of this world.
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h-n
06-27-2010, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
You can't do an action from your personal initiative then say "If you want to complain, complain to ...., not to me". You can't start something but force someone else to finish it.

Run from responsibility is incorrect according Islamic etiquette (adab).

Just remind you, sister. :)
That's just pathetic, you got nothing good to say, then don't, I have already explained I don't want to get banned from this forum.

I am not running away from my reponsibility, as I said whatever the decision is, I won't be complaining about it, and they can complain on the Day of Judgemet, and still if I have done something wrong, I am still responsible.
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Supreme
06-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Your a joke, you keep on blaming Allah if you go to Hell, when your own actions have sent you there, that is what you have done to yourself.
My own actions? What, by not believing that God is a sadistic psycopath who enjoys watching people suffer when they don't compliment Him in the right way?

Allah is Merciful, you going to Hell if you don't repent does not change that.
Allah is Merciful, a person being malicious does not change that.
I think you need to look up the definition of merciful in a dictionary- sending people to Hell is many things, but it is most certainly not merciful!

The rest of your post isn't worth a modicum of intellectual debate. All I can say is that you should consider my points. It is likely you have never thought about Hell before- it was just 'the way things are done'- judging by your poor arguments, you most certainly haven't thought about it before.
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Supreme
06-27-2010, 04:16 PM
Of course not. How silly of me. The obvious course of action is to berate them and insult them. That is how you will get them to repent
Ironically, it was this sort of moronic talk of Hell and insulting other that almost stopped me from becoming Christian. Only when I looked closer into the religion, and discovered it had oh so much more depth, that I decided that God wasn't the sadistic, human like diety obsessed with seeking vengeance on those brave enough to oppose Him that many fundamentalist Christians portrayed Him as.
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
I think you need to look up the definition of merciful in a dictionary- sending people to Hell is many things, but it is most certainly not merciful!
You are the first christian I know that does not believe in heaven and hell.

Interesting.
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h-n
06-27-2010, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
My own actions? What, by not believing that God is a sadistic psycopath who enjoys watching people suffer when they don't compliment Him in the right way?



I think you need to look up the definition of merciful in a dictionary- sending people to Hell is many things, but it is most certainly not merciful!

The rest of your post isn't worth a modicum of intellectual debate. All I can say is that you should consider my points. It is likely you have never thought about Hell before- it was just 'the way things are done'- judging by your poor arguments, you most certainly haven't thought about it before.
Allah is Most Merciful and Compassionate. Stop picking and choosing what you want from religion. Yes, I have thought about it, and absolutely accept it.

You wrong yourselves when you do evil, Allah did not force you to reject him, kill people, be lewd etc.

I am not in doubt 100%. Its rather that you think that we are going to be like you, because you are a rejector of truth, when frankly a Muslim is nowhere near to how yo are!!! That is why you keep on saying it over and over again. It acceptable that people who do evil go to Hell, were else do you think he was going to take them? For a tour around the Universe?

Why do you think that Allah destroyed the homosexuals at the time of Prophet Lut? So they could go for a picnic in the next world?

Why do you think that Allah destroyed the sinners at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him? So they could go for a walk around heaven? So Allah destroyed all the sinners just to take them happily into Heaven. And anyway if he wanted to take people to heaven, he would have taken Prophet Noah peace be upon him and his followers not others.

Also stop derailing this thread, its not about what you believe in, its about how people are WHEN they repent to Allah (when they have accepted the one God, Day of Judgement Hell, Paradise).
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Supreme
06-27-2010, 04:46 PM
You are the first christian I know that does not believe in heaven and hell.

Interesting.
Where did I ever state this? I believe in both, but certainly not the ones most Muslims (or even most Christians) believe in. It seems too simplistic for my liking, and I do not believe God is simplistic, in any sense of the word.

Allah is Most Merciful and Compassionate. Stop picking and choosing what you want from religion. Yes, I have thought about it, and absolutely accept it.
See? Debate with someone so utterly convinced that they cannot even counter an argument coherently is worthless. Yours is a cookie cutter approach- ideally, you'd follow the blessed Prophet and blessed scholars, and God would permit you to Heaven for doing nothing more that what your fellow man demands you to do. It's too simplistic, and that's my main qualm with it.

I am not in doubt 100%. Its rather that you think that we are going to be like you, because you are a rejector of truth, when frankly a Muslim is nowhere near to how yo are!!! That is why you keep on saying it over and over again. It acceptable that people who do evil go to Hell, were else do you think he was going to take them? For a tour around the Universe?
Nope. But I certainly didn't think their final destination would reminisce the old mythological domain of Hades, either. Unless, of course, God took advise from the ancient Greek, Egyptian and Roman civilisations on how to create an afterlife. Which seems unlikely.

Also stop derailing this thread, its not about what you believe in, its about how people are WHEN they repent to Allah (when they have accepted the one God, Day of Judgement Hell, Paradise).
I'll stop 'derailing' the thread (if we take derailing to mean providing a sensible discussion amongst your ridiculous posts) when you stop repeating yourself. Deal?
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ardianto
06-27-2010, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
That's just pathetic, you got nothing good to say, then don't, I have already explained I don't want to get banned from this forum.

I am not running away from my reponsibility, as I said whatever the decision is, I won't be complaining about it, and they can complain on the Day of Judgemet, and still if I have done something wrong, I am still responsible.
This is not about what you say, but about how you say it. I know your intention is good, but your method in telling your messages is needs a little correction.

Okay sister, now is midnight in my place. I must go to bed. Insha Allah, I'll be back tomorrow.
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
My own actions? What, by not believing that God is a sadistic psycopath who enjoys watching people suffer when they don't compliment Him in the right way?



I think you need to look up the definition of merciful in a dictionary- sending people to Hell is many things, but it is most certainly not merciful!

The rest of your post isn't worth a modicum of intellectual debate. All I can say is that you should consider my points. It is likely you have never thought about Hell before- it was just 'the way things are done'- judging by your poor arguments, you most certainly haven't thought about it before.
The problem is that Allah is not just Merciful. He is Wrathful. Your feeble mind failed to comprehend that when you were learning about Allah.

So its like saying this. Doctors are merciful. If they were not, they wont be helping patients. But the last time I checked, doctors cause necessary pain: pricking the skin for injections or what not. Are they technically being merciful? ooh sometimes, doctors would reject what their patient wants and if the want is even legit. Lets say a painkiller?
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Supreme
06-27-2010, 04:56 PM
So its like saying this. Doctors are merciful. If they were not, they wont be helping patients. But the last time I checked, doctors cause necessary pain: pricking the skin for injections or what not. Are they technically being merciful? ooh sometimes, doctors would reject what their patient wants and if the want is even legit. Lets say a painkiller?
Good grief! An analogy comparing Allah to doctors. Spare me from such strawmen in future!
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Ramadhan
06-27-2010, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Where did I ever state this? I believe in both, but certainly not the ones most Muslims (or even most Christians) believe in. It seems too simplistic for my liking, and I do not believe God is simplistic, in any sense of the word.
So how do you propose the heaven-hell-god plays out?
is your view supported by the holy scripture that you believe in?

Because from your posts, I barely recognize christianity and seems like a whole new religion.
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CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Good grief! An analogy comparing Allah to doctors. Spare me from such strawmen in future!
I did not say I am comparing doctors to God. My point was to show how it doesnt work in real life.

Regarding God, He is Most Merciful and Most wrathful. He is most Just as well. If He sends to Hellfire, that is most Just. Since by definition its just, it cant be psychopathic. What is psychopathic is you.
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h-n
06-27-2010, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
Where did I ever state this? I believe in both, but certainly not the ones most Muslims (or even most Christians) believe in. It seems too simplistic for my liking, and I do not believe God is simplistic, in any sense of the word.

See? Debate with someone so utterly convinced that they cannot even counter an argument coherently is worthless. Yours is a cookie cutter approach- ideally, you'd follow the blessed Prophet and blessed scholars, and God would permit you to Heaven for doing nothing more that what your fellow man demands you to do. It's too simplistic, and that's my main qualm with it.

Nope. But I certainly didn't think their final destination would reminisce the old mythological domain of Hades, either. Unless, of course, God took advise from the ancient Greek, Egyptian and Roman civilisations on how to create an afterlife. Which seems unlikely.


I'll stop 'derailing' the thread (if we take derailing to mean providing a sensible discussion amongst your ridiculous posts) when you stop repeating yourself. Deal?

I follow What Allah has taught us, where he has provided the Prophets Jesus, Noha, Lut, Ibrahim, Moses, Muhammad, Job, Lut, David, Solomon peace be upon them to give us that message.

Al of them taught about the one God, Allah, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. Do you deny this, again why on earth do you think that the people were taken by the flood, why do you think that the homosexuals were killed? So they can live in Paradise forever? You are cannot change Islam. You cannot change the fact that Prophets have arrived and told people if they don't repent, they will go to Hell.

I don't know what an earth you have been discussing with my Muslims Brothers and Sisters about Islam, but your not going to be able to waste my time.

You have refused to acknowledge any of the relevant points (so if you cannot answer then stop posting);-

1. The homosexuals were destroyed at the time of Prophet Lut peace be upon him-why do you think they were destroyed so Allah can give them a Mansion in Paradise?

2. The sinners were taken by the flood at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him-what do you think happened to them? That they are sitting in the next world having a picnic?

3. Are you saying that Prophet Lut peace be upon him did not warn the homosexuals about Hell fire?

4. Are you sayiing that Prophet Noah peace be upon him did not warn people about Hell fire?

5. You say you reject Hell, then you are in error, you cannot change what all the Prophets have taught, they have all mentioned Hell. Or are you going to deny that they all mentioned this?

6. What is the point of having a Day of Judgement, if there are no consquences for your actions? What do you think is going to happen to sinful people that they are going to have a slap on their wrists and told not to be evil and enter in a peaceful abode?

7. Only infidels quote idols, and myths. Did Allah give you a revelations saying that there is no Hell? When he has already sent the message to the Prophets to provide to us.


I have every confidence anyway, that anybody reading your posts are not seeing you as a religious person, even non-Muslims can see that you are changing things. Your only making a fool out of yourself.
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h-n
06-27-2010, 06:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
This is not about what you say, but about how you say it. I know your intention is good, but your method in telling your messages is needs a little correction.

Okay sister, now is midnight in my place. I must go to bed. Insha Allah, I'll be back tomorrow.
I find it hilarious that people think they need to teach me how to speak kindly. You are in error, do you think a Muslim can learn so much about Islam and also be unkind?? If people are kinder then they would be heeding the signs that Allah has provided, Allah is never going to call people who dismiss the signs and treat everything as if its normal in this world, innocent. Allah is not going to call the people who did not heed the warnings as kind.

I don't need to correct the way I talk, plus people when reading my posts actually understand what I am saying about Islam, in a basic, straightforward way clear way to understand.

Why don't you just go ahead and tell the non-Muslims to ignore me and speak to you instead and create your own thread??

Do not bother wastng my time, posting any old rubbish, go and rememeber that the Major signs of the Day of Judgement is upon us. I don't need some advice when I have learnt so much by remembering Allah and the Day of Judgement, from someone who does so less.

I don't need correction, I'm not the one that needs to change when the Dajjal is here. Its strange that people who cannot cope when the Dajjal is here are telling others who are stronger then them how to behave. Go and read "My intentions" thread and also the other thread "Call for Muslims to become an Umamh"

Again don't bother posting, please create your own thread and show everybody how its done, and even if you were to talk to infidels in a pleasing way, I still wouldn't care as per "My intentions" threads. Frankly I rather die then be like you. +o(

I can never change, as I am heeding the warnings that Allah has provided, if it was just about not like infidels, then I wouldn't bother talking about Islam, and the Day of Judgement, I would just go to infidels websites and make fun out of them. If I had to be like you, I would have to stop heeding the warnings of Allah. That is the only way to change how I talk to people. +o(

Before you say its not arrogance, its confidence, cannot afford to be weak when facing the Dajjal.
I would rather die then be like an infidel and be a person who does not heed the signs. You have to recognise that is not going to help yourself through the Major signs.

You supposed to be a servant of Allah not a sissy, complaining. To recognise to stay away from things that will not help you face the Dajjal.

Now people can see why I got banned from Ummah. Did I not say I had a clash with Muslims not heeding the signs, and all they were doing too is talking about how I should be. The whilst I learnt that they had not thought about the countries finishing. Some said 100 years, some were even joking around saying were are the countries going to another planet. So I'm trying to avoid arguments.

Islam is a religion of Peace
Islam is not a religion of Stupidity.

Instead of wasting time telling me how to be, go and heed the signs and learn what Allah has taught you. Again I'm not the one that needs to change when the Dajjal is here. Also I don't want to and I am not going to change!!!!
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Zafran
06-28-2010, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme
...yes, I am. Hence my Way of Life reading 'Christian'.
so what do you think of the bible and hell - Is the bible wrong?
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User_23338
06-28-2010, 12:12 AM
Sister h-n salaam, your posts are very good and informative and logical, people like supreme are to arrogant to understand Islam, so it's better not to waste our breath on people like him, what you said was technically true sister.
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Lynx
06-28-2010, 12:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
association of partners with God. Furthermore, its not the religion to reach God anymore, at least according to Quran, as it has been invalidated by Islam.
How do Jews associate partners with God?
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titus
06-28-2010, 03:51 AM
7. Only infidels quote idols, and myths. Did Allah give you a revelations saying that there is no Hell? When he has already sent the message to the Prophets to provide to us.
I quoted the Quran which specifically said it is fine to befriend non-Muslims.

You say it not fine to befriend non-Muslims.

So is the Quran wrong, or you?

Or do you think Allah has changed his mind since then?
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marwen
06-28-2010, 11:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
How do Jews associate partners with God?
Polytheism is not the only form of Shirk (associating partners with God). There is many other implicit forms :
If you give divine attributes to a human, then you are associating him with God. If you obey a human (a Jewish rabbi for example) when he tells you that's permissible (halal) and that's not (haram) without reference to God, then you are making him a God. If you believe that a human or a thing can help you in your future and give you rizq (livelihood) if you address him/it with prayer or with sacrifice(offering), then you are making him/it God.
And if you make prayer just to make people admire you, and you forget that your prayer should be addressed to Allah, then this is another subtle form of Shirk : Rya'a (hypocrisy)


Qur'an :
اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

[Surat Al tawbah (09), Ayah 31]
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h-n
06-28-2010, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
Sister h-n salaam, your posts are very good and informative and logical, people like supreme are to arrogant to understand Islam, so it's better not to waste our breath on people like him, what you said was technically true sister.
Thank-for saying that, at least we have the Quran, to help us and not be one of the inhabitants of the fire.
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ardianto
06-28-2010, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
I find it hilarious that people think they need to teach me how to speak kindly. You are in error, do you think a Muslim can learn so much about Islam and also be unkind?? If people are kinder then they would be heeding the signs that Allah has provided, Allah is never going to call people who dismiss the signs and treat everything as if its normal in this world, innocent. Allah is not going to call the people who did not heed the warnings as kind.

I don't need to correct the way I talk, plus people when reading my posts actually understand what I am saying about Islam, in a basic, straightforward way clear way to understand.

Why don't you just go ahead and tell the non-Muslims to ignore me and speak to you instead and create your own thread??

Do not bother wastng my time, posting any old rubbish, go and rememeber that the Major signs of the Day of Judgement is upon us. I don't need some advice when I have learnt so much by remembering Allah and the Day of Judgement, from someone who does so less.

I don't need correction, I'm not the one that needs to change when the Dajjal is here. Its strange that people who cannot cope when the Dajjal is here are telling others who are stronger then them how to behave. Go and read "My intentions" thread and also the other thread "Call for Muslims to become an Umamh"

Again don't bother posting, please create your own thread and show everybody how its done, and even if you were to talk to infidels in a pleasing way, I still wouldn't care as per "My intentions" threads. Frankly I rather die then be like you. +o(

I can never change, as I am heeding the warnings that Allah has provided, if it was just about not like infidels, then I wouldn't bother talking about Islam, and the Day of Judgement, I would just go to infidels websites and make fun out of them. If I had to be like you, I would have to stop heeding the warnings of Allah. That is the only way to change how I talk to people. +o(

Before you say its not arrogance, its confidence, cannot afford to be weak when facing the Dajjal.
I would rather die then be like an infidel and be a person who does not heed the signs. You have to recognise that is not going to help yourself through the Major signs.

You supposed to be a servant of Allah not a sissy, complaining. To recognise to stay away from things that will not help you face the Dajjal.

Now people can see why I got banned from Ummah. Did I not say I had a clash with Muslims not heeding the signs, and all they were doing too is talking about how I should be. The whilst I learnt that they had not thought about the countries finishing. Some said 100 years, some were even joking around saying were are the countries going to another planet. So I'm trying to avoid arguments.

Islam is a religion of Peace
Islam is not a religion of Stupidity.

Instead of wasting time telling me how to be, go and heed the signs and learn what Allah has taught you. Again I'm not the one that needs to change when the Dajjal is here. Also I don't want to and I am not going to change!!!!
As Muslims, we have an obligation to remind each other. But I have no any objection if you want to ignore me.

Wasalamualaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

:)
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titus
06-28-2010, 01:46 PM
Islam is a religion of Peace
Islam is not a religion of Stupidity.
Not the way you follow it.

You can't say it is a religion of peace but that you hate everyone that doesn't follow it.
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h-n
06-28-2010, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I quoted the Quran which specifically said it is fine to befriend non-Muslims.

You say it not fine to befriend non-Muslims.

So is the Quran wrong, or you?

Or do you think Allah has changed his mind since then?
What you have quoted;-
[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.

[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. Those who befriend them are the transgressors.

........

[16:125} You shall invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.

.....

[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

[29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

1. Fighting against Islam, is not just about physical fighting its about what people say to change religion. This is what even Satan does, he talks and schemes, so we go against him. Also you'll find that if a Scholar in Islam changes anything about Islam-he is in big trouble and the other Muslims will go against him. Even though he has not fought physically. We enjoin good and forbid evil. A female goes around naked, she is not actively physically fighting, but we also go against this behaviour strongly. So fighting against Islam is not just about evicting people from their homes. Allah has never told us to befriend idol worshippers, lewd people, homosexuals etc. They are already going against Islam-what Allah has taught us.

So those people who don't fight us because of our religion, are not like you and others you see around you. Do you think that Allah is going to teach a Muslim Man to befriend a lewd Males just because they don't say anything wrong about Islam? Do you think that Alalh is going to teach a Muslim women to befriend a prostitute just because she is not saying anything against Islam? AS stated we are not Christians, its not about people being nice to us-which is what sinners do. Look at the verses above, Allah talks about people going against Muslims because of their "religion" not because of us personally. You only care if someone attacke you personally. Just becaue of our religion people don't like us, and don't accept us. If you can't accept a Muslim then why should you be allowed to go to Paradise and be with good people who are really no different to Muslims??

They have transgressed by accepting idol worship. Its a fact that there were Christians who did not accept idol worship and the Jews are rejecting Hell and looking for this world, there is reference that a jewish women came to one of the wives of the Prophet and talked about the torment of the grave. so why are the Jews not teaching this anymore and going to Hell?

I've already explained about this a bit in the "Freedom and evil acceptance", only evil people ask people to get along with them, and accept everyone this is actually because no one will be critical of how they are, when they are being lewd. Its like if you get people to accept everyone, then they too will be accepted. People are not going to accept them because they are different, but because they accept everyone else and then they will be accepted too. So the focus is not on that person, but on everyone else. Rather like if you say anyone can go to a theme park, so if there was racism, but because everyone is accepted then n oone would feel uncomfortable. This is what the Jews were doing, and why there was talk of mult-cultural etc. I'm against Zionist, but not against Jews who don't transgress and change religion, those that accept that there is one God, Day of Judgement Hell, Paradise. We are not like Jews who are going to adopt Christian names and try and blend in, we are Servants of Allah. This is what lewd people do, they are saying to get their lewd behaviour acceptable so they will personally be accepted by others. They are getting the focus on a cause, someone else, but they are focused on getting acceptable themselves.

WE are not sinful people, we stand apart from sinful people. We are never friends with infidels. You keep on using that phrase, but no Muslim if you asked them right now, would they stand with you or a Muslim. They would say a Muslim. Evil people want people to get along with them, to accept their rubbish.

Allah has created humans, you have to adhere to Islam, to be treated as a good person. No matter what you say and create, you cannot change the fact that a sinful person is never going to be treated the same as a good person. You are treating Muslims like infidels, we are not your friends;-

-the angels don't treat you like a good person, even today,
-the angels don't treat homosexual as a good person.

You only get treated nicely if you repent, you are asking to be treated nicely regardless-which you can never have except tolerance. Even Allah does not treat you the same as he would do with a Muslim.

You'll also find any Muslim, including myself, which is were the reference is about nicest possible manner with the people of the scripture, we naturally are kind to them, as they accept the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. You don't see it as your treating the Christians as the Christians of old, as even stated there were before never worshipping Prophet Jesus peace be upon him etc.IF you say to any Muslim that you accept the one God, the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell, you will automatically see that they are happy! Already naturally looking in a more kinder way. WE are never horrible to people who accept the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.

Instead of trying to treat yourself as the same, go and find out that there were Christians who did not commit idol worship and were Jews who rememebered Hell and read up on the reference of the torture of the grave, before derailing this thread, and go and create your own.

This thread is about how non-Muslims are when they are repenting, already accepting Islam. So no derailing.
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h-n
06-28-2010, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Not the way you follow it.

You can't say it is a religion of peace but that you hate everyone that doesn't follow it.
Go and say that to the angel who would be striking your back, in the next world if you don't repent.

Of course we hate idol worship, lewd behaviour, homosexuals. Since when is being peaceful about accepting evil??

Also stop derailing this thread.
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titus
06-28-2010, 02:13 PM
So basically you believe that anyone who is not Muslim does not fit the description of "those who do not fight you because of religion".

Simply having a different religion than you is the same as fighting you, therefore you cannot be friendly with them.

Wow.
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titus
06-28-2010, 02:15 PM
Also stop derailing this thread.
I commented on your feelings towards non-Muslims. This thread is about "non-Muslims and Islam".

Please stop asking me to stop derailing threads when I am not.

Of course we hate idol worship, lewd behaviour, homosexuals. Since when is being peaceful about accepting evil??
I understand that you hate idol worship. Does that mean you automatically hate those that worship idols also?
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h-n
06-28-2010, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I commented on your feelings towards non-Muslims. This thread is about "non-Muslims and Islam".

Please stop asking me to stop derailing threads when I am not.

I understand that you hate idol worship. Does that mean you automatically hate those that worship idols also?
I hate idol worship, and I would NEVER be friends with them, what do you think the Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him did? Be friends with them?

What do you think that the Prophets Lut, Muhammad,. Moses, Noah, Job peace be upon him etc, just came into this world, and just told everyone to live as one big happy family regardless of people being sinful?

There is no difference to you complaining about idol worshippers not being admitted to Paradise.

Obviously again, you spend more time, writing what you say, rather then reading. If you read about Islam, then you wouldn't have written what you have done. That is so basic in Islam, Just been wasting your time on this website.

1. WHat do you think happened that Prophet Noah peace be upon him said lets all be friends and the sinners could also get into the ark??

2. Did you think that the homosexuals made friends and left the village with Prophet Lut peace be upon him and Allah just destroyed empty buildings??

Even people are against Muslims just for being more decent! Just as the homosexuals who complained about the Prophet Lut peace be upon him saying that he is telling people to be pure. People today, don't like Muslims because they are keeping themselves good. I think I have mentioned this on the "Freedom and evil acceptance" thread.

You are proving that you are not reading even the thread that you are posting one!! This thread is about non-Muslims when they repent to Islam, already accepting that there is one God, The Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. Its about people not repenting so people can just be nice to them, but wanting Allah to be pleased with them.

So do yourself a favour, stop posting for a while , and read.
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titus
06-28-2010, 02:53 PM
I hate idol worship, and I would NEVER be friends with them
Even people are against Muslims just for being more decent!
You believe as a Muslim that it is incumbent upon you to hate non-Muslims.

I don't know anyone who hates Muslims because they are decent. Some do use the excuse that it is because Muslims hate all non-Muslims, though. You epitomize that.

You are a shining example of intolerance and hatred, and you find that to be a badge of honor and something to be proud of.

How sad.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by h-n
As I'm talking in the language that they understand, infidel meaning a sinful person. That's like saying I can't use the word Devil, I have to use the word Shaytaan. Or I can't use the word "evil".

Sister h-n.
as-salam alaykum sis,

Actually infidel means one without faith or one who does not acknowledge your god. It is a term from Christians tho. Not being critical of you, just stating the real meaning of infidel.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 04:10 PM
great discussion. Mashalla at your posts h-n.
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titus
06-28-2010, 04:34 PM
Maybe I should stop reading this forum.

You have a Muslim saying that it is incumbent upon all Muslims to be unfriendly with non-Muslims, expressing their hatred of people who follow other religions, and other Muslims are creating posts simply to compliment her.

Maybe Islamaphobia is justified.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Maybe I should stop reading this forum.

You have a Muslim saying that it is incumbent upon all Muslims to be unfriendly with non-Muslims, expressing their hatred of people who follow other religions, and other Muslims are creating posts simply to compliment her.

Maybe Islamaphobia is justified.
:o

:(

A Muslim always has to say the truth and should not comprise their faith for others.
So when speaking to a non Muslim about Islam, Muslim should sticks to the truth but speak to just, appropriate and polite manner.
A Muslim should not say oh you may be one of the few people as a non Muslim going to heaven. They always stick the true teaching, and say how it is. Explain their stance, but that does not mean they should be horrible to a non Muslim.
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CosmicPathos
06-28-2010, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Maybe I should stop reading this forum.

You have a Muslim saying that it is incumbent upon all Muslims to be unfriendly with non-Muslims, expressing their hatred of people who follow other religions, and other Muslims are creating posts simply to compliment her.

Maybe Islamaphobia is justified.
you would do us a great service by stopping to read intellectual forums like ours. But a disservice to yourself.

Yes. A Muslim should not be-friend kaafirs. Those who have rejected the Oneness of Allah, they do not deserve friendship of slaves of Allah. Rather their actions should be abhorred.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 04:59 PM
It depend how you define befriending. Is debating with a non Muslim about religion befriending? Is talking to a non Muslim about current situations befriending? Is working with a non Muslim in school and work environment befriending? Is talking to non Muslim next door neighbour from time to time befriending?

What is befriending?
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h-n
06-28-2010, 05:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You believe as a Muslim that it is incumbent upon you to hate non-Muslims.

I don't know anyone who hates Muslims because they are decent. Some do use the excuse that it is because Muslims hate all non-Muslims, though. You epitomize that.

You are a shining example of intolerance and hatred, and you find that to be a badge of honor and something to be proud of.

How sad.
What did you think Islam was about? That the Prophets went around hugging and kissing people?
Why are you telling me to be nice to non-Muslims when the angels don't like you either? When they are being sent to Hell, what is that you expect me to do, say to others here is my friend.


You being critical of me, because I-

1. Hate idol worship,
2. Hate homosexuality,
3. Hate lewd people.
4. Why should I lilke something that would send me to Hell??
5. Why are you telling me to like something which the Prophets Noah, Lut, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them rejected?
6. Why are you complaining that I don't like you when Allah is not pleased with sinners???

You come from your corrupted Christian backgrounds that changed religion, religion is were evil and good people are seperate, we are not the same and never will be. A person going to Paradise is not the same as going to Hell.


How can you accuse Islam of being intolerant just because we don't like idol worship, lewd people etc? WE are not nice because we hate things that God himself does not like?? Just showing how stupid you are being.
Are you going to complain that when sinners are sent to Hell, that no one likes them then too?

Instead of derailng this thread, create your own and talk about not hating homosexuals, idol worshippers etc.
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h-n
06-28-2010, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
great discussion. Mashalla at your posts h-n.
Thank-you, Allah has always allowed us to speak in the way that people understand, and the masses do understand that word as being used to describe a sinful, non-believer, one who is going to Hell.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 05:23 PM
The Prophets went around hugging and kissing people.
The prophet peace be upon them did not necessarily cussed or expressed hate towards other either.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 05:27 PM
I need someone more knowledgeable to step in because I am hearing two different opinions.

Are we honestly as Muslim meant to hate non Muslims?

I thought we meant to hate the sin not the sinners?

Because I have seen scholars say we meant to treat non Muslim with polite and just manners. And some say we can be friends but not close friends.

And I also found this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...friends-2.html

That topic confuses me more!
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 06:00 PM
http://alghazzali.org/resources/articles/friendship.pdf

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...infidel-3.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...ebrations.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...n-muslims.html
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titus
06-28-2010, 06:11 PM
You being critical of me, because I-

1. Hate idol worship,
2. Hate homosexuality,
3. Hate lewd people.
4. Why should I lilke something that would send me to Hell??
5. Why are you telling me to like something which the Prophets Noah, Lut, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them rejected?
6. Why are you complaining that I don't like you when Allah is not pleased with sinners???
Wrong. I am critical of people that hate other people based on their religion.

I find it wrong.

A nice person sent me THIS LINK. I prefer this version of Islam over the hate-filled version you and mad-scientist and others preach.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 06:38 PM
How does Islam say to deal with Non Muslims? Former Christian Minister Yusuf Estes on TheDeenShow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQTHVJ68MCI
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Lynx
06-28-2010, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Polytheism is not the only form of Shirk (associating partners with God). There is many other implicit forms :
If you give divine attributes to a human, then you are associating him with God. If you obey a human (a Jewish rabbi for example) when he tells you that's permissible (halal) and that's not (haram) without reference to God, then you are making him a God. If you believe that a human or a thing can help you in your future and give you rizq (livelihood) if you address him/it with prayer or with sacrifice(offering), then you are making him/it God.
And if you make prayer just to make people admire you, and you forget that your prayer should be addressed to Allah, then this is another subtle form of Shirk : Rya'a (hypocrisy)


Qur'an :
How does any of that constitute as associating with God? I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them. Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God? Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?


Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.
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CosmicPathos
06-28-2010, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
How does any of that constitute as associating with God? I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them. Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God? Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?


Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.
yea it allows marriage with what sort of Christian woman? The pagan Christian or the one who believed in monotheistic God?

I do not think Islam can give leeway to one of its adherents to marry someone who is from a religion which Islam so "obsessively" condemns in its entirety.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 07:17 PM
I see a lot of Muslim men marrying non Muslim even Hindus etc women today.

@ Mad scientist
Do you believe there is any Christian or Jewish women Muslim men can marry theseday? Or do you think there is none in this world?
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CosmicPathos
06-28-2010, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I see a lot of Muslim men marrying non Muslim even Hindus etc women today.

@ Mad scientist
Do you believe there is any Christian or Jewish women Muslim men can marry theseday? Or do you think there is none in this world?
If there is any monotheistic Jewish or Christian woman alive today then a Muslim man can marry her. And if she would be really rational, she'd realize that Islam is a real monotheistic religion while Bible is full of fables of a God-turned-man, and she'd eventually accept Islam, by will of Allah.
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Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
If there is any monotheistic Jewish or Christian woman alive today then a Muslim man can marry her. And if she would be really rational, she'd realize that Islam is a real monotheistic religion while Bible is full of fables of a God-turned-man, and she'd eventually accept Islam, by will of Allah.
Jazakallahu khaayr for your response.

Is there any today and at what countries that is what I wanted to know. Do you know?
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marwen
06-28-2010, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
How does any of that constitute as associating with God?
association = having one or more properties/attributes/ownership in common.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
I think the dentist will fix my teeth so I pay him to fix them.
I'm sorry, I don't understand the example. If you compare prayer with exchange(money for service), the comparison doesn't work.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Can you perhaps clarify why committing any of those entails that someone believes in more than one God?
if a property p can only be owned by an object X (X(p)=true), and You suppose that an object Y has the same property p (Y(p) = true), then the only implicit conclusion is that you (un)consciously admit that X = Y. I said implicit because a big number of people are doing this equivalence between a God and another Object unconsciously.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Also, while you're at it, can you show me examples of Jews doing that?
The basic book that should be followed by Jews is the bible revealed to Prophet Musa (Moses) (alayhi essalam). But Jews are not following the bible directly, they are following the interpretations(talmuds) of the bible made by Jewish rabbis who decide what is to be done and what's not, and let alone the changes that these rabbis make to the original version of the bible.
Another example of Shirk done by Jews is worshiping the Calf instead of God. I'm not sure Jews are still worshiping such idols, but it can give an idea about the weakness of the Jewish doctrine.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Also, in the case of Christians, as titus points out, the Quran talks about Christians believing in the trinity but at the same time it allows for a marriage between A muslim male and a Christian woman so I don't think the monotheism has anything to do with marriage.
Muslim male is allowed to marry a woman of the book (christian, jewish). I can't find any restriction about monotheistic or polytheistic chrisrtians/jews.
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Lynx
06-28-2010, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
association = having one or more properties/attributes/ownership in common.


I'm sorry, I don't understand the example. If you compare prayer with exchange(money for service), the comparison doesn't work.


if a property p can only be owned by an object X (X(p)=true), and You suppose that an object Y has the same property p (Y(p) = true), then the only implicit conclusion is that you (un)consciously admit that X = Y. I said implicit because a big number of people are doing this equivalence between a God and another Object unconsciously.
Sorry, ignore the dentist example as I misread your previous post. I understand how implicit implication works but I am not convinced that some of the things you mentioned in your previous post constitute as polytheism nor am I convinced Jews do any of what you mentioned even if it is polytheism.

The basic book that should be followed by Jews is the bible revealed to Prophet Musa (Moses) (alayhi essalam). But Jews are not following the bible directly, they are following the interpretations(talmuds) of the bible made by Jewish rabbis who decide what is to be done and what's not, and let alone the changes that these rabbis make to the original version of the bible.
First and foremost, even in Islam you are not supposed to follow the quran 'directly'. If that was the case then every Muslim should be capable of writing a tafsir but clearly tafsirs are left to qualified scholars. Second, you need to provide citations to the claims you made about Rabbis going beyond just interpretation ( I guess your claim is about going beyond interpretation since no one has a problem with scholars interpreting religious texts in general). Third, even if you are able to show that Rabbis corrupted the text, in order to get your argument to work you have to show that Jews are AWARE that their Bible is corrupted AND that Jews still follow the religion with this in mind. This latter point is important because even if a text is corrupted, if Jews don't know the text is corrupted then in their minds they are following God's word.

Another example of Shirk done by Jews is worshiping the Calf instead of God. I'm not sure Jews are still worshiping such idols, but it can give an idea about the weakness of the Jewish doctrine.
You know, obviously if they worshipped calves & the Biblical God you can call them polytheists. They don't worship calves & the weakness of the Jewish doctrine is irrelevant.

Muslim male is allowed to marry a woman of the book (christian, jewish). I can't find any restriction about monotheistic or polytheistic chrisrtians/jews.
yep this was in response to mad_scientist.
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marwen
06-28-2010, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
I understand how implicit implication works but I am not convinced that some of the things you mentioned in your previous post constitute as polytheism nor am I convinced Jews do any of what you mentioned even if it is polytheism.
Where did I mention that Jews are practicing full Polytheism ?
Your question was that :

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
How do Jews associate partners with God?
My response was that Polytheism is one form of "associating partners with God" (Shirk); and there is other forms that I explained, done by Jews.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
First and foremost, even in Islam you are not supposed to follow the quran 'directly'. If that was the case then every Muslim should be capable of writing a tafsir but clearly tafsirs are left to qualified scholars. Second, you need to provide citations to the claims you made about Rabbis going beyond just interpretation ( I guess your claim is about going beyond interpretation since no one has a problem with scholars interpreting religious texts in general).
I can give citations from the qur'an if you want saying the bible is corrupt , not from the bible (if there is a clear verse in the bible saying : "hey, this book you're reading is corrupt !", then I'll mention it) . The contradiction/scientific inconsistence argument will also work (what is discussed in many other threads).

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Third, even if you are able to show that Rabbis corrupted the text, in order to get your argument to work you have to show that Jews are AWARE that their Bible is corrupted AND that Jews still follow the religion with this in mind. This latter point is important because even if a text is corrupted, if Jews don't know the text is corrupted then in their minds they are following God's word.
Why ? unconsciousness does not deny the act. Are they guilty or not ? that's another question.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
You know, obviously if they worshipped calves & the Biblical God you can call them polytheists. They don't worship calves & the weakness of the Jewish doctrine is irrelevant.
The Golden Calf (just one), not the calves like hindus. That happened once in the Jewish history in the time of prophet Moses.
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User_23338
06-28-2010, 10:43 PM
I will never marry a non-muslim, because I know it's haraam and the Christians and Jews today are very different and they do shirk, so it's better to marry someone that is either born Muslim or converted to Islam, so you don't have to go through that mess about converting and explaining, I would marry a Muslim girl that already has knowledge about islam.
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Lynx
06-29-2010, 01:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
Where did I mention that Jews are practicing full Polytheism ?
Your question was that :

My response was that Polytheism is one form of "associating partners with God" (Shirk); and there is other forms that I explained, done by Jews.
mad_scientist mentioned that Jews are not monotheistic and I was responding to him so the discussion has originally been about whether or not Jews are monotheistic or not. You entered the discussion by saying Jews associate partners with God so I thought you meant they have more than one God (or in the case of Christians some kind of Trinity where there are differnet incarnations of God). I don't want to discuss whether Jews commit shirk according to Islam because Muslims themselves can't agree on what constitutes shirk & this is irrelevant anyway; polytheism does not mean the same thing as shirk. Anyway, you haven't shown how Jews commit shirk you've only defined what shirk is and proceeded to say Jews do it without any backing except the (baseless) comment about the Bible being corrupted which I responded to in my previous post.

I can give citations from the qur'an if you want saying the bible is corrupt , not from the bible (if there is a clear verse in the bible saying : "hey, this book you're reading is corrupt !", then I'll mention it) . The contradiction/scientific inconsistence argument will also work (what is discussed in many other threads).
The Qur'an isn't an objective authority on the Bible so no I don't want verses from Quran. I am well aware of what the Quran says about the Bible. And no, contradictions and scientific inconsistencies are not relevant in this discussion; whether the Bible has errors has nothing to do with whether Jews are monotheists.

Why ? unconsciousness does not deny the act. Are they guilty or not ? that's another question.
People can't unconsciously be polytheists. Polytheism means the belief in more than one God.

The Golden Calf (just one), not the calves like hindus. That happened once in the Jewish history in the time of prophet Moses.
This is entirely irrelevant. I don't care about whether Jews were polytheists 2500 years ago and neither should you in this discussion since we are talking about Modern Jews..
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h-n
06-29-2010, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Wrong. I am critical of people that hate other people based on their religion.

I find it wrong.

A nice person sent me THIS LINK. I prefer this version of Islam over the hate-filled version you and mad-scientist and others preach.
See how stupid that statement is, sinners say it thinking they have a case against Islam. You say that to say that you are kind? When you are being evil. Your willing to quote anything, which you yourself have not thought much about. We are created by Allah, it is natural for us to go against evil, lewd, homosexuals etc are evil.

WE are critical of people who SIN, what else do you think happened that;-

1. the sinners were saved from the flood,
2. that the homosexuals were not destroyed at the time of Prophet Lut peace be upon him?
3. that we are going to start making friends with Satan too? Nevermind about what Allah has taught us about him.

You are in error, and disgusting, you call yourself a Man? At least Muslims Men forbid evil and enjoin good. Your sitting their not saying anything against lewd behaviour, homosexuality etc, and you think you have something to say for yourself?? You can't even say anything against evil, even a Muslim woman is doing better at going against evil then you are.

Go and complain on the Day of Judgement that Allah should be sending all the sinners to Paradise. Go and stand with the idol worshippers, homosexual on that Day, and be thrown into Hell with them.
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titus
06-29-2010, 03:08 PM
You are in error, and disgusting, you call yourself a Man?
How am I disgusting? Please answer this, I want to know. Does simply not being a Muslim make me disgusting?
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h-n
06-29-2010, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
How am I disgusting? Please answer this, I want to know. Does simply not being a Muslim make me disgusting?
Why are you keep on picking and choosing what I say, obviously I have mentioned because you do not enjoin good and forbid evil. To go against idol worship, lewd behaviour, homosexuality etc. Of course your disgusting. What else do you think that people are going to call if you if you go to Hell? A lovely person? Of course not. Even a donkey is in a better position then you, as at least it accepts the one God.

What would you say to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him? That he should not go against sinful behaviour?? Of course your disgusting, your not on the good side, your just showing to people that if you lived at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him you would have been drowned.
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titus
06-30-2010, 07:54 AM
Why are you keep on picking and choosing what I say
Because most of it is repetitive and there is no need. I know that in almost every post you will bring up Noah, Lut or Ibrahim and the same stories (flood, homosexuals, etc.). Why repeat myself?

you do not enjoin good and forbid evil
In other words because I am a non-Muslim I am disgusting, right?

If that is not true then say so. If it is true then please be honest and come out and say so.

As for good and evil, we have different opinions on those criteria. I don't hate someone because of their religion. I find that evil. You, on the other hand, believe it is your religious duty to hate people because of their religion.

Of course your disgusting. What else do you think that people are going to call if you if you go to Hell?
A lost soul. ****ed. Unsaved. Doomed. Unredeemed. Ill fated.

To go against idol worship, lewd behaviour, homosexuality etc. Of course your disgusting.
I am not a homosexual nor do I worship any idols.
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Muslimeen
06-30-2010, 08:00 AM
I don't know why many non muslims feel muslims hate them.
Islam is not about hate, it is about love. I suppose they feel we hate them because we don't agree with their beliefs. It is true, we don't agree with their beliefs and never will, does this mean we hate them?
No it does not, islam teaches, "hate the deed, not the man".
That is why when a non muslim reverts to islam we treat him as brother, with love, respect and dignity and forget everything before that. We are prepared to give our lives for them.
Perhaps they see us giving invitation to them to accept islam as a sign of hatred, this obviously cannot make sense. Would you ever invite anyone into your home or family if you hate that person??
So why do we invite them into the fold of Islam?
Because we love them and do not want to see them suffer in the afterlife, we want them to be the owners of paradise and not hellfire. The torments of hell are so great that we cannot and do not want to see any person suffering this ill fate. We want you to enjoy the fruits of paradise, if we hated you we would have just ignored you and left you to your devices and to the ultimate abode of hell.
The noble prophet Muhammad Sallalahu Allaihi Wassalam has left us with this duty to assist and guide people to the straigt path i.e The path to paradise.
There may be some muslims who portray hatred towards non muslims, but then they speak as individuals not as a nation. May Allah guide us. Ameen.
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titus
06-30-2010, 08:24 AM
I don't know why many non muslims feel muslims hate them.
I don't feel that most Muslims hate me. In real life I have many Muslim friends and acquaintances and have gotten along great with all of them. On these forums, though, you have people that thrive on the anonymity of the internet and who feel free to publish their socially unacceptable beliefs.

Perhaps they see us giving invitation to them to accept islam as a sign of hatred
Not at all. People I respect on this forum, and others in real life, have invited me to accept Islam. I have graciously declined and harbor no ill will at all. In fact I have always looked upon such invitations as compliments.

No, the signs of hatred I see on this forum are the obvious ones. They are the few that insult all non-Muslims who disagree with them instead of discussing issues rationally, and the ones like h-n who do not attempt to hide the hatred and disgust they feel for all non-Muslims.
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Muslimeen
06-30-2010, 08:33 AM
I understand how you feel, and respect that. There is no compulsion in Islam.
It is unfortunate that some people become emotional and start behaving irrationally.
I am in no position to condemn anyone as I am not aware of what has transpired between h-n and yourself. My suggestion would be to make peace and start fresh in the good spirit of humanity.
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h-n
06-30-2010, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Because most of it is repetitive and there is no need. I know that in almost every post you will bring up Noah, Lut or Ibrahim and the same stories (flood, homosexuals, etc.). Why repeat myself?
In other words because I am a non-Muslim I am disgusting, right?

If that is not true then say so. If it is true then please be honest and come out and say so.

As for good and evil, we have different opinions on those criteria. I don't hate someone because of their religion. I find that evil. You,
on the other hand, believe it is your religious duty to hate people because of their religion.

A lost soul. ****ed. Unsaved. Doomed. Unredeemed. Ill fated.

I am not a homosexual nor do I worship any idols.
Of course I am going to continue to talk about Prophets Lut, Ibrahim Noah peace be upon them.

You keep on saying that if people hate others for a religious reason then that is wrong, so what are you saying its OK to hate someone for something else?? How shall we treat Satan? Our religious reason is a personal reason anyhow. What do you expect Servants of Allah to be? Not believe wholeheartedly on what is right or wrong. There is no difference of opinions on what is good or evil. Sinners say anything to change things to make it acceptable.

You keep on saying I use the internet to hide, if that is they case then why did I choose a Muslim website, to specifically talk to Muslims?? You talk about social unacceptable views, you a sinner are only proving that;-

1. If you were alive at the time of Prophet Jesus peace be upon him you would have stood idly by when they tried to kill him.

2. If you were alive at the time of Prophet Lut peace be upon him you would have stood idly by when the homosexuals invaded his home.

3. What would you even say to Prophet Jesus peace be upon him? That its not right that good people don't like evil people? He would not accept idol worshippers, homosexuals etc.

4. Do you think that Allah gave Men wives, horses to ride upon, and to be able to sail the seas so that they don't forbid evil?

5. Do you really think a women takes care of a Man for being a sissy and not willing to fight in the name of God and forbid evil?

6. What do you think a Man's job is to sit there like a woman and talk about what is right or wrong, you have to go further and say to people that I don't accept homosexuality or idol worship (but your just distancing yourself by saying that you are not a homosexual or an idol worshipper, to be on the safe side so you won't be criticised.) Again you are not right, as this is not what the Prophets did. Are you going to say that Prophets Noah, Lut, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus peace be upon them are wrong for going against idol worship and homosexuality?

7. Of course your pathetic and disgusting, if you can't see what your doing to your own soul now you will when you go to Hell. You forbid evil, and not just say I am not a homosexual, idol worshipper etc. This is what evil people like to do, they like to say that I am not part of this, so they won't be attacked, or be criticised, that is why they did not help the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him.

8. There is no difference to you complaining that;-

-Prophet Jesus peace be upon him hated idol worship, homosexuals etc
-Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him hated idol worship, homosexuals etc
-Prophet Moses peace be upon him hated idol worship, homosexuals etc.


So before you post anymore ridiculous comments talk about what the Prophets would have accepted, and then tell us that we are wrong for hating idol worship, homosexuality etc. I best mentioned it may obviously come up, yes the Prophets spoke in the best possible way to sinners, but that still does not change the fact that they hated idol worship, homosexuality etc.
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aamirsaab
07-01-2010, 08:08 PM
Ok just so everyone is clear, a non-muslim is still a human being. Please treat one another with basic civility.

The purpose of this forum was, and always will be da'wah. That is to explain and help guide people towards Islam. It is not a grounds for verbally or intellectually abusing one another. Take that crap elsewhere. Or better yet, quit it altogether because it is a disgusting habit.
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