/* */

PDA

View Full Version : women



Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 08:11 AM
can women be leaders in islam? Leaders of a country?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 08:38 AM
You mean as a Khalifa? Or a leader of Army? I doubt they can be for that, at least in Islam ....

Rest is up for discussion such as Minister of Justice or Minister of Health ...
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 03:20 PM
Asalamu Alikum Wr Wb!

Sister, women can't be head of state. And the logical reason is given here! mashAllah!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-B_tLlzYo
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 08:22 PM
sorry to say sister. that is no logic. And plus he is not a scholar.

@science

no not leading an army, as in leading a country with the team behind her. I see no problems with this. And I want to know more.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Insaanah
06-26-2010, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
no not leading an army, as in leading a country with the team behind her. I see no problems with this. And I want to know more.
:sl:

When the Prophet :saws: heard that the Persians had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, he said, “No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53).

:sl:
Reply

Asiyah3
06-26-2010, 08:50 PM
:sl:
It's better if a man leads a country.
Reply

cat eyes
06-26-2010, 08:54 PM
women cant run a country and theres many hadiths to prove it.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
sorry to say sister. that is no logic. And plus he is not a scholar.

@science

no not leading an army, as in leading a country with the team behind her. I see no problems with this. And I want to know more.
all right, you are the most logical person here.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 09:15 PM
No Cat there is only one (the above that was posted) suggesting why women cannot lead a country.

why cant she lead a country?

I mean didnt the prophet wives taught Islam to their societies. isnt that like being a leader?

And isnt this sexist? sorry to sound negative but i see no logic in this at all. I am not trying to be negative or even critical of Islam.

how close can a woman be to lead a country?

visa president, president?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
all right, you are the most logical person here.
Sarcasm really suits you, you know that?
Reply

Asiyah3
06-26-2010, 09:18 PM
The leader of a country will obviously need to travel quite much. It's hard for a woman to always ask her husband to travel with her especially when a man has financial responsibilities and has to provide for the family. His work will be pretty much interrupted.

He'll also have to devote himself for his work and his country. We have families to take care of.

Also making alot of important decision like about war etc. These are not easy, you'll have to share your time between your children and husband and these meetings and conferences. It's much easier for a lady to be a minister or someone who can have an impact.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 09:26 PM
The man leader would also have to spare time for his wife and children....

The husband can travel with her as well as the children and he can also have his job based on the government. He can earn whilst travelling.

And the decisions of wars get an easier with men does it? Not to mention she had a whole team behind her, scholars and other expert that would assist her to make important decisions.
Reply

Insaanah
06-26-2010, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I mean didnt the prophet wives taught Islam to their societies. isnt that like being a leader?
No, not at all. The men came and asked the wives of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them) Islamic matters from behind a screen, in accordance with Surah al-Ahzab, ayah 53.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Sarcasm really suits you, you know that?
Did you know that I speak sarcasm as my second language? In addition I am fluent in few other languages as well.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 09:35 PM
Even if it was behind a screen, the men based their decision on what the wives have said right?

So that is still like leading a country. :/

Arggh my internet is slow!
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Did you know that I speak sarcasm as my second language? In addition I am fluent in few other languages as well.
good for you. Mashallah
Reply

Insaanah
06-26-2010, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
So that is still like leading a country. :/
No, it is not, because the men came to the wives while they were in their homes. If someone comes to me at home and asks me a question on an Islamic matter (say, one that I have some knowledge of) , how on earth is that like me leading a country?

Apart from the above hadeeth, all the Islamic scholars are unanimous that a woman cannot be a leader.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Even if it was behind a screen, the men based their decision on what the wives have said right?

So that is still like leading a country. :/

Arggh my internet is slow!
I do not think I'd want to be ruled by a woman who orders from behind the veil. Neither by one who orders without a veil. Id want to not be ruled by anyone at all. Each must be his/her own leader.

I'd reckon those sahaaba sought advice of Prophet's wives in matters in which they were not sure what were the commandments so they seeked facts from the wives (ra).

Ayesha (ra) led the army against Ali (ra). She later repented from this mistake of hers. The fact that she repented shows that even she knew that Islam did not give that leeway to women on battlefield. But again, those men on battlefield were courageous. Muslim men today are not even a quarter of them.
Reply

Snowflake
06-26-2010, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
The man leader would also have to spare time for his wife and children....

The husband can travel with her as well as the children and he can also have his job based on the government. He can earn whilst travelling.

And the decisions of wars get an easier with men does it? Not to mention she had a whole team behind her, scholars and other expert that would assist her to make important decisions.
Sis, what if she's lying on a hospital trolley giving birth lol as we get attacked? Worse she may end up having quads lol! What if she has to have a c-sec? Or she takes so much gas and air she goes a bit mental and gives orders that could ruin the country lol? What if she gets post-natal depression? Not forgetting the regular hormonal hurricane lol. I mean there's many things which can affect a woman's ability to think straight. And she can't be mum and wife and be running a country. It feels like that running a home anyway, and that is testing for most of us lol. We are emotional creatures, even when we are not emotional lol. :\ anyway hope you get the pic sis :D
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 10:04 PM
But that is a battlefield. Leaders are hardly ever in a battlefield these days.

But these men based their decision on what these wives have said. do you think leader go to each and one individuals of their countries and order them to do whatever? No, leaders tell a group of people the rules. And the wives were not clarifying the rules set by the prophet (pbuh)? which is what a leader in a Muslim country would do, as they make decision and clarify and justify their rules accordance to Islam.

I want to know the extent and involvement a woman can make in her own country? I think Muslim countries would benefit from women's impact. Some of people would probably follow Islam rather than culture (i.e. forced marriage and domestic violence).

Anyways I need my earlier questions answered can a woman become a visa president or to what extent she can became close to leadership?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 10:09 PM
What about grown woman that have older adults as children, she would hardly ever be giving birth at the late stage. And a woman is not always and some hardly affected by hormonal changes.

Plus leaders don’t always make decision on the spot. They most often plan ahead and have discussion with their “team”. So even if a woman was to be giving birth, she would still most likely have back up plan or planned ahead.
Reply

Insaanah
06-26-2010, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
And isnt this sexist?
Do you think that the fact that a woman cannot be an imaam is sexist? Or what about the fact that we have to wear hijaab, and men don't?

Allah designed our bodies and our emotions to fit certain roles. He did not create us the same. Our roles are NOT equal, but they are equally valuable.

Also consider, that if female leadership was allowed , then

• The messengers of Allâh were always men. Never was a lady deputed as a Rasul or Nabi. "And we have not sent messengers before you except that they were men." [Al-Ambiyâ: 7]
• Rasoolullah :saws: had during his lifetime despatched many jamâts (for the sake of da'wah and jihad etc.) but never did he appoint a female as ameer of any of these jamâts.


As to your question, I suggest you ask a scholar.

:sl:
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
sorry to say sister. that is no logic. And plus he is not a scholar.
Be honest sis, did you even watch the video? :-\

You want logical proofs, okay so I'll post them in sisters section and would give you the link here.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 10:35 PM
But the above have reasons I can understand and most people would be able to understand. But I do not understanding leading the country and I still don’t.

But accept that women cannot lead a country with great disappointment. However I want to know the closest women can get to leadership. Yeah I think I will ask a scholar.
So if a woman was to look after her household and take cares of her husband whilst worshiping Allah (swt), she would have equal rewards then a man who leads his country or leads a war. I don’t think these are equally valuable. Isn’t leading a country more valued then wife looking after her house?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by An33za
Be honest sis, did you even watch the video? :-\

You want logical proofs, okay so I'll post them in sisters section and would give you the link here.
Yes I did watch the video.

The thing is I don’t view women as weak or vulnerable or even emotional as some may do. Perhaps, maybe this where how I was brought up comes into play and influenced my way of thinking.
Reply

Masuma
06-26-2010, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Yes I did watch the video.

The thing is I don’t view women as weak or vulnerable or even emotional as some may do.
We are definitely physically weak. Yeah not vulnerable. We are definitely emotional for reason you know already.
Reply

Snowflake
06-26-2010, 10:59 PM
=sweet106;1342612]What about grown woman that have older adults as children, she would hardly ever be giving birth at the late stage. And a woman is not always and some hardly affected by hormonal changes.
Actually, nowadays women are having kids later and later. Older women go through the change. They have lots of health issues - hormonal and non hormonal. But anyway, none of that matters. Allah is The Most Wise, and if He has prohibited something for the Ummah then His wisdom shouldn't be questioned. Na udhu billah.

Plus leaders don’t always make decision on the spot. They most often plan ahead and have discussion with their "team"
Yup, that's normal for men.


So even if a woman was to be giving birth, she would still most likely have back up plan or planned ahead.
There is no planning ahead, or backup plan for having a baby. You can't decide when the baby comes. You can't decide how long the labour lasts. You can't just pop the baby back in if it arrives during a slanging match in the houses of Parliament. What if there are complications for mother or baby, or both? Come on sis, why do you feel so strongly about women being leaders? We are the leaders. We are responsible for leading the new generation to become good muslims. Is any job more important than that? A country doesn't just need a good leader, it needs good citizens if it's going to prosper, and what better citizens can a country have than good practicing muslims?




:wa:
Reply

AhmadibnNasroon
06-26-2010, 11:00 PM
No one in Islamic history believed this, and the scholars have ijmaa' that this is not permissible and the leader should be a male. The hadeeth related by al Bukhari is sufficient. We should be from those who hear and obey. Wallaahu'3lam, this is what Shaykh Munajjid said on the matter





Is it legal islamicly to acknowledge females as our leader?

Praise be to Allaah.

Positions of leadership and high public office means taking on the mission of establishing Islam by reviving religious knowledge and establishing its foundations, engaging in jihaad for the sake of Allaah – which includes preparing armies and distributing war booty – establishing the judicial system, carrying out judicial punishments (hudood), fighting oppression, enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil, acting as a deputy of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

There is no dispute among the scholars that one of the conditions of the imaam or leader is that he should be male. Ibn Hazam reported in his book Maraatib al-Ijmaa’ that there was scholarly consensus on this point. In the section he says: “Out of all groups of the people of the Qiblah [i.e., all Muslim sects], there is not one that allows the leadership of women.” Al-Qurtubi reported something similar, and al-‘Allaamah al-Shanqeeti said, “There is no difference of opinion among the scholars on this point.”

The evidence for this is the general meaning of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other…” [al-Nisa’ 4:34]. It is also clearly indicated by the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah who said that when the Prophet SAW?S (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) heard that the Persians had appointed the daughter of Chosroes as their queen, he said, “No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53).

This is because positions of leadership and government require a person to join men’s gatherings, which is not allowed for women according to sharee’ah because of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance…” [al-Ahzaab 33:33]. These positions also require perfect wisdom, reason and alertness, and the testimony of a man has been made equal to that of two women, the reason for which Allaah has explained in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “… so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…” [al-Baqarah 2:282].

Imaam al-Muwaffaq Ibn Qudaamah said:

“For this reason the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his successors (khulafa’) and those who came after them never appointed a woman to be a judge or a governor of a province, as far as we know. If it were permissible, it should have happened.”

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

“The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?”

Imaam al-Baghawi said:

“The scholars agreed that women are not fit to be leaders or judges, because the leader needs to go out to organize jihaad and take care of the Muslims’ affairs, and the judge needs to go out to judge between people, but women are ‘awrah and it is not right for them to go out. Because of their weakness, women are not able to do many things. Women are imperfect, and the positions of leaders and judge are among the most perfect of positions for which only the most perfect of men are qualified.”

Undoubtedly this is proven by reality. People know from experience that only men are fit for leadership, because women by nature are more emotional and more easily swayed by their feelings and compassion. These qualities have been created in women to enable them to carry out their most important duty, which is that of motherhood and nurturing children. Men, on the other hand, are not usually swayed by their emotions as women are. Their way is usually one of logic and deliberation, which form the essence of responsibility and leadership.

With regard to the question of whether a woman may be appointed as a judge, the majority of Maaliki, Shaafa’i and Hanbali scholars say that a woman cannot be appointed as a judge, because of the general meaning of the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah quoted above.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said:

“Ibn al-Teen said: Those who say that a woman cannot be appointed as a judge use the hadeeth of Abu Bakrah as evidence, and this is the view of the majority.”

With regard to other administrative positions, there is no shar’i reason why women should not be appointed to run institutions where they will work with other women and not men, because in this case there are no shar’i reservations about their work.

There is no validity in what most modern writers say about how women have to go out and take part in parliaments and public councils, and that these are part of the rights granted to women by Islam. These writers have not examined the issue from the correct Islamic viewpoint. The truth is clear, but unfortunately they look at it with minds filled with the heretic trends of East and West. Therefore you see them weakened and defeated, dazzled by the false civilizations of those nations, then they come and misinterpret the texts and change the words from their right places until they agree with their whims. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound.

See: Fath al-Baari by Ibn Hajar, 13/55; Maraatib al-Ijmaa’ by Ibn Hazam, 125; Adwa’ al-Bayaan by al-Shanqeeti, 1/55; Sharh al-Sunnah by al-Baghawi, 10/77; Tafseer al-Qutubi, 1/271; al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Nihal by Ibn Hazm, 4/110.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/3285/women%20leaders
Reply

Insaanah
06-26-2010, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
So if a woman was to look after her household and take cares of her husband whilst worshiping Allah (swt), she would have equal rewards then a man who leads his country or leads a war. I don’t think these are equally valuable.
Hadeeth narrated by Ibn Hibbaan: “If a woman offers her five daily prayers and fasts her month (i.e., Ramadaan) and guards her chastity and obeys her husband, it will be said to her: ‘Enter Paradise from whichever of the gates of Paradise you wish.’” This hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ al-Sagheer, no. 660.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me!

Isn’t leading a country more valued then wife looking after her house?
A woman will be rewarded for her work in the house if she seeks reward with Allaah for that, and is sincere in her intention. From: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/69960/woman%20reward
Reply

Snowflake
06-26-2010, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
But the above have reasons I can understand and most people would be able to understand. But I do not understanding leading the country and I still don’t.

But accept that women cannot lead a country with great disappointment. However I want to know the closest women can get to leadership. Yeah I think I will ask a scholar.
So if a woman was to look after her household and take cares of her husband whilst worshiping Allah (swt), she would have equal rewards then a man who leads his country or leads a war. I don’t think these are equally valuable. Isnt leading a country more valued then wife looking after her house?
Leaders don't raise themselves sis. A leader is raised because a mother stayed at home to raise him. She shaped his personality from which he extracted leadership qualities. It is because she 'looked after the house' that he is a leader today.
Reply

جوري
06-26-2010, 11:15 PM
this is unfortunately a possible end to 'women politicians'




certainly even the sahaba weren't spared assassination plots.. question is why this job is the only one of interest when there are so many better ones? there are modern day jobs that women can't hold in the 'industrialized world'

please see here:


Russia's constitution guarantees men and women equal employment but the country's labor code states women shouldn't do hard, physical labor or jobs that entail harmful or dangerous conditions. And the code lists 460 jobs off limits to women. Jobs like chimney sweep, fire fighter, blacksmith, steel worker, and metro train operator. But women here can drive buses, trams, and trolleys.
http://www.pri.org/world/jobs-women-...ussia1427.html

:w:
Reply

جوري
06-26-2010, 11:19 PM
here is another one about women't role in the american military:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...5110906AAgJb1U

though believe it or not women still went out on the battlefield during the time of the prophet, it is definitely not recommended.. a woman today is no different than a woman a thousand years ago.. they'll have you believing that it is 'liberating' to hold said jobs but there is no liberation or 'equal opportunity' in that whatsoever!

:w:
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-26-2010, 11:44 PM
Basically from what I gather, not only can a woman not lead but she can’t also be part of the government like ministers?

I feel strongly about women being leaders because: 1. is because I believe they would actually focus the harmful things happening to women and children in Muslims countries. i.e. forced marriage and domestic violence. 2. I think women would have more insight on community cohesion and would also get more women involved. 3. She would most likely to reduce unjust rulings concerning women and children.

Anyways thanks for all information, it was useful.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-26-2010, 11:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Basically from what I gather, not only can a woman not lead but she can’t also be part of the government like ministers?

I feel strongly about women being leaders because: 1. is because I believe they would actually focus the harmful things happening to women and children in Muslims countries. i.e. forced marriage and domestic violence. 2. I think women would have more insight on community cohesion and would also get more women involved. 3. She would most likely to reduce unjust rulings concerning women and children.

Anyways thanks for all information, it was useful.
I disagree with your point 2. Its as if you are condoning women supremacy, as if men are devoid of this knowledge.
Reply

جوري
06-27-2010, 12:04 AM
women can be part of juries and make decisions concerning their affairs, who said that they can't.. this is different from running a country!

:w:
Reply

AhmadibnNasroon
06-27-2010, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Basically from what I gather, not only can a woman not lead but she can’t also be part of the government like ministers?

I feel strongly about women being leaders because: 1. is because I believe they would actually focus the harmful things happening to women and children in Muslims countries. i.e. forced marriage and domestic violence. 2. I think women would have more insight on community cohesion and would also get more women involved. 3. She would most likely to reduce unjust rulings concerning women and children.

Anyways thanks for all information, it was useful.


The beauty of the sharee3ah is that it is not confined to time. The issues you present are mainly contemporary issues and are specific to certain places. However these are not absolute issues. Secondly you're assuming that a woman WOULD do such and such and you cannot just assume that based upon personal experiences or thoughts. The sharee3ah is complete and we should feel safe in the decisions and recommendations of Allah and His Messenger.

Whatever Allah and His Messenger have given us is good and whatever they have prohibited us from is harmful. So we should feel content with such a ruling despite thinking of certain benefits. Remember the ruling on alcohol, Allah mentions some benefits but the harm outweighs the benefits.
Reply

Karl
06-27-2010, 12:12 AM
Excellent posts AhmadibnNasroon. So a woman would have to leave Islam to be a leader and she could only lead non Muslims. Also you must remember that "women grow old, men get more dignified" and in politics image is very important. Even the ancient pagans couldn't stand an effeminate man leading them let alone a woman
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-27-2010, 12:28 AM
Does the juries include ministers?


@ AhmadibnNasroon

The issue are presented in neither contemporary nor for just specific places, it is widespread many Muslim countries and such practices were carried for centuries. Some Muslim cultures believe it is perfectly okay to beat their wives with weapon let alone hands. And many Muslim cultures from Asia, Middle East to Africa believe you must accept marriage arranged for you because Islam (that is what they say) says you should obey your parents to the extent that they have to accept anyone presented to them at any given age. So a young girl or boy cannot question their parents concerning their marriages despite their parent’s true intention may not be to give their daughters to righteous man but for wealth. Such ignorance across the Muslim world is still strong and carried out.

I have not seen any of these Muslim countries run by men address such issue unless they are pressured to so. Any women would be keen to sort out their ignorance and would have willingness to protect their own sisters and children.

You might disgree, but I certainly believe women in particular would be very good at it.
Reply

Karl
06-27-2010, 01:40 AM
@ Sweet106. I have noticed that you seem to be exerting most of your time here CHALLENGING and REBELLING against Islam rather than being a supportive part of it, like you see most other Muslims here do. You should learn about Islam FIRST before you convert to it. Your concerns are repetitively based on the contemporary insipid viewpoints of Western misandrists/socialists/atheists rather than from Islamic viewpoints. And we would not be making any mistake by saying that those who primarily peddle these mentalities are most often the most severest and rancourest enemies of Islam ANYWAY. Yet you preach their predictable strings of catch-cries such as "women's rights!", "what about the children!", "stop child labour!", "stop arranged marriages!", "stop polygamy!" etc etc. Your political cliches sound more like something being bludgeoned into my ears by the mawkish catch-cries that I hear every time I dare to switch my tv channel over to BBC to listen to their drivelling propaganda machine in action. I'm just curious why you are trying to peddle these platitudinous concerns that I am always hearing from the secularist and misandric enemies of Islam rather than the kinds of priority concerns one would expect to come from an authentic Muslim? Why is that??
Reply

AhmadibnNasroon
06-27-2010, 02:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Does the juries include ministers?


@ AhmadibnNasroon

The issue are presented in neither contemporary nor for just specific places, it is widespread many Muslim countries and such practices were carried for centuries. Some Muslim cultures believe it is perfectly okay to beat their wives with weapon let alone hands. And many Muslim cultures from Asia, Middle East to Africa believe you must accept marriage arranged for you because Islam (that is what they say) says you should obey your parents to the extent that they have to accept anyone presented to them at any given age. So a young girl or boy cannot question their parents concerning their marriages despite their parent’s true intention may not be to give their daughters to righteous man but for wealth. Such ignorance across the Muslim world is still strong and carried out.

I have not seen any of these Muslim countries run by men address such issue unless they are pressured to so. Any women would be keen to sort out their ignorance and would have willingness to protect their own sisters and children.

You might disgree, but I certainly believe women in particular would be very good at it.
I understand your concern however you're presenting a separate issue here. You cannot use what you see from Muslim countries and parallel that with the sharee3ah. Rather see what the sharee3ah says and then decide. As for juries, then allaahu'3lam I don't know of any such thing in the sharee3ah, rather you have a qadih who is presented a case and makes a verdict based upon evidences presented to him and the verdict is based upon knowledge of fiqh/sharee3ah.

But these issues presented doesn't change the fact that a woman leader is not good for the ummah. The Messenger told us this and Allah told us that men are the protectors and maintainers of women. The wali'ul 'Amr is exactly that, a wali to the people. There are many issues that were presented before from other posters that show why a woman is not capable of leading a nation.

Allah azza'wajal has blessed women with such a sacred role that they are the ones who nurture leaders. I feel sometimes sisters downgrade the position that Islam has blessed women with and this shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't get distracted or fooled by the images the kuffar depict to us as to what a "real" woman should be. Their success is not our success.

A woman who prays 5x a day, fasts, pays the zakat, goes to hajj, and obeys her husband will enter any of the gates of jannah. Just look at how great of a reward that is? A woman's jihad is hajj, just look at that. Look how Allah honored the woman and made her jannah easy for her to attain in certain respects.

Also regarding the Muslim countries and "juries", these lands do not rule by the hukm of Allah so its pointless in using them as an example. Rather lets look at how the sa7abah radiallaahu anhum ajma3een dealt with the issues you presented and use that as as a guide.

May Allah cause us to love the sharee3ah ameen
Reply

HAWA*~
06-27-2010, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Ayesha (ra) led the army against Ali (ra). She later repented from this mistake of hers. The fact that she repented shows that even she knew that Islam did not give that leeway to women on battlefield. But again, those men on battlefield were courageous. Muslim men today are not even a quarter of them.
Aisha repented because she was on the wrong side in the battle of the camel not because she led an army or participated in war. Many women have been on the battle field such as Umm Umarah (Nasibah) whether in leadership postions or not. I've also heard that one of Ali's later wives also led some other women in battle but I cant seem to find it now.
I agree with others in that women have different roles then men in islam and that is way the position of prophethood was not bestowed on women. We have children, we go through menstrual cycles etc.
I dont believe it is a mental deficiency because I think the creator would have mentioned it when the story of balqees who led her nation to prosperity and wealth was mentioned in the quran.
Reply

HAWA*~
06-27-2010, 03:01 AM
^Khawlah Bint Al-Azwar
Reply

جوري
06-27-2010, 03:06 AM
'Naqisat 3aql' doesn't equal mental deficiency, rather emotional lability at times.. not sure who is translating Arabic incorrectly to people and then others latch on it.. otherwise mostly great posts and points of views here..

:w:
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HAWA*~
Aisha repented because she was on the wrong side in the battle of the camel not because she led an army or participated in war. Many women have been on the battle field such as Umm Umarah (Nasibah) whether in leadership postions or not. I've also heard that one of Ali's later wives also led some other women in battle but I cant seem to find it now.
I agree with others in that women have different roles then men in islam and that is way the position of prophethood was not bestowed on women. We have children, we go through menstrual cycles etc.
I dont believe it is a mental deficiency because I think the creator would have mentioned it when the story of balqees who led her nation to prosperity and wealth was mentioned in the quran.
I never denied women "taking part" in Islamic battles. One can even argue that sexually satisfying one's soldier husband on battlefield at night is also taking part in the battle. Anyways.

Leadership positions are not allowed for women in army or battles unless probably all men have been martyred? If you have evidence for the allowance, bring forth.

Was Balqees subject to Islamic Sharia? Dont take things out of context from Quran. We are talking about Muhammadi Sharia, not of the old Prophets.


@Karl: I love your reply to sweet.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
'Naqisat 3aql' doesn't equal mental deficiency, rather emotional lability at times.. not sure who is translating Arabic incorrectly to people and then others latch on it.. otherwise mostly great posts and points of views here..

:w:
yea it cant mean "mental deficiency." probably more to do with judgment in regards to religious matters? I really dont know. Wallahu AAlim. I dont think hormonal changes really effect women's thinking at all! I mean female scientists, does their productivity decrease when they go through menses? I dont think so.
Reply

HAWA*~
06-27-2010, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I never denied women "taking part" in Islamic battles. One can even argue that sexually satisfying one's soldier husband on battlefield at night is also taking part in the battle. Anyways.

Leadership positions are not allowed for women in army or battles. If you have evidence, bring forth.
I think the fact that Aisha led even though she later repented because she realized she was on the wrong side is evidence enough. Also the second women Khawlah I mentioned who was married to Ali lead other women in battle against the Romans.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Does the juries include ministers?


@ AhmadibnNasroon

The issue are presented in neither contemporary nor for just specific places, it is widespread many Muslim countries and such practices were carried for centuries. Some Muslim cultures believe it is perfectly okay to beat their wives with weapon let alone hands. And many Muslim cultures from Asia, Middle East to Africa believe you must accept marriage arranged for you because Islam (that is what they say) says you should obey your parents to the extent that they have to accept anyone presented to them at any given age. So a young girl or boy cannot question their parents concerning their marriages despite their parent’s true intention may not be to give their daughters to righteous man but for wealth. Such ignorance across the Muslim world is still strong and carried out.

I have not seen any of these Muslim countries run by men address such issue unless they are pressured to so. Any women would be keen to sort out their ignorance and would have willingness to protect their own sisters and children.

You might disgree, but I certainly believe women in particular would be very good at it.
How is agreeing to parents' choice of our spouse "arranged marriage?" Lets say parents found a spouse and the Muslim guy happen to like her too, would you throw mud at this marriage by calling it "oh-so-disgusting arranged marriage" too? Wooow.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HAWA*~
I think the fact that Aisha led even though she later repented because she realized she was on the wrong side is evidence enough. Also the second women Khawlah I mentioned who was married to Ali lead other women in battle against the Romans.
hahahahahaha


hahahahahahah


was Ayesha (ra) the ruler? How could she lead an army when she was not the ruler? Did Muawiyya give her the permission? Was Ayesha (ra) the Ameera al Mumineen?

And after all Ayesha (ra) was the wife of Prophet (pbuh) and had exclusive rights and exclusive responsibilities. Dont tell me that an average woman can come and claim to have the same status as that of the mother of believers and take an whole army out without a valid justification or proof from shariah.
Reply

HAWA*~
06-27-2010, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
hahahahahaha


hahahahahahah


was Ayesha (ra) the ruler? How could she lead an army when she was not the ruler? Did Muawiyya give her the permission? Was Ayesha (ra) the Ameera al Mumineen?
HA ha ha ................... ha?
I didnt know you had to be ruler to lead an army? Was the general Khalid bin Walid a ruler? The ameer al mumineen? Although Aisha only rose up to lead an army because she believed that a wrong had been commited against Uthman and although it was and is not the norm for a women to lead an army of men it did occur.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by HAWA*~
HA ha ha ................... ha?
I didnt know you had to be ruler to lead an army? Was the general Khalid bin Walid a ruler? The ameer al mumineen? Although Aisha only rose up to lead an army because she believed that a wrong had been commited against Uthman and although it was and is not the norm for a women to lead an army of men it did occur.
Khalid bin Waleed (ra) was appointed by the Ameer ul Mumineen as the Army General. The very position of being Army General is that of leadership, of a ruler, if not that of the country or state. I havent fought in battles but I play enough realistic video games to know at least very general basics of how armies are supposed to work and managed.

Is there proof that Ayesha (ra) was appointed as the Army General by the then Khalifa i.e. Muawiyya? If Ayesha (ra) repented for being on the "wrong side," why did not Muawiyya did so?

Here is a quote by Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali was a rationalist, a philosopher of the highest rank and later repented for mixing philosophy with Islam. How could such an educated man adopt such a "conservative and backward" view?

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

“The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?”
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-27-2010, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
@ Sweet106. I have noticed that you seem to be exerting most of your time here CHALLENGING and REBELLING against Islam rather than being a supportive part of it, like you see most other Muslims here do. You should learn about Islam FIRST before you convert to it. Your concerns are repetitively based on the contemporary insipid viewpoints of Western misandrists/socialists/atheists rather than from Islamic viewpoints. And we would not be making any mistake by saying that those who primarily peddle these mentalities are most often the most severest and rancourest enemies of Islam ANYWAY. Yet you preach their predictable strings of catch-cries such as "women's rights!", "what about the children!", "stop child labour!", "stop arranged marriages!", "stop polygamy!" etc etc. Your political cliches sound more like something being bludgeoned into my ears by the mawkish catch-cries that I hear every time I dare to switch my tv channel over to BBC to listen to their drivelling propaganda machine in action. I'm just curious why you are trying to peddle these platitudinous concerns that I am always hearing from the secularist and misandric enemies of Islam rather than the kinds of priority concerns one would expect to come from an authentic Muslim? Why is that??
I actually came here to learn more about Islam.

I was not being “rebellious”, I was asking questions. You just want me to be submissive, and not actually ask the question “why” at all. Me being submissive, being force feed Islam and not being able to question and ask the wisdom behind it is what made my iman extremely low during my teenage years.

oh how I wish some Muslims stop sticking their heads in the sand. I have never once suggested to stop arranged marriages, polygamy etc. I am like any other Muslims should be against forced marriages. My concerns is very much real, you don’t need any western media as such to tell me you or anyone that. Beating wives with a wire is justified across the Middle East, yet the so called Muslim countries could not care less how their own local people translate Islam like this. Forced marriage is (not arranged marriages) are practiced in most Muslim countries, who need the west to tell us this? It exists and it is widespread. You don’t have to be besotted with western media nor do you have to be a genius to know that. In fact you don’t have to be a genius to know that before the focus was ever on Islam (before 9/11 etc).

Maybe I am of those people that want to know why ummah or in fact Muslim state still allow such practices amongst other things when it completely forbidden in Islam.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-27-2010, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
How is agreeing to parents' choice of our spouse "arranged marriage?" Lets say parents found a spouse and the Muslim guy happen to like her too, would you throw mud at this marriage by calling it "oh-so-disgusting arranged marriage" too? Wooow.
It not just about agreeing, why dont you bother to read.

Nothing wrong with parents bringing someone home, everything wrong them focusing their children to marry that person and everything wrong with young people being told to obey their parents to the point of marrying someone that they do not want or when they dont feel at all ready.
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 03:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I actually came here to learn more about Islam.

I was not being “rebellious”, I was asking questions. You just want me to be submissive, and not actually ask the question “why” at all. Me being submissive, being force feed Islam and not being able to question and ask the wisdom behind it is what made my iman extremely low during my teenage years.

oh how I wish some Muslims stop sticking their heads in the sand. I have never once suggested to stop arranged marriages, polygamy etc. I am like any other Muslims should be against forced marriages. My concerns is very much real, you don’t need any western media as such to tell me you or anyone that. Beating wives with a wire is justified across the Middle East, yet the so called Muslim countries could not care less how their own local people translate Islam like this. Forced marriage is (not arranged marriages) are practiced in most Muslim countries, who need the west to tell us this? It exists and it is widespread. You don’t have to be besotted with western media nor do you have to be a genius to know that. In fact you don’t have to be a genius to know that before the focus was ever on Islam (before 9/11 etc).

Maybe I am of those people that want to know why ummah or in fact Muslim state still allow such practices amongst other things when it completely forbidden in Islam.
I dont think Karl denied that forced marriages happen. In Sindh, a province of Pakistan, villagers sometime marry their daughters with Quran .... NO ONE IS DENYING THIS IGNORANCE.
Reply

HAWA*~
06-27-2010, 03:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Khalid bin Waleed (ra) was appointed by the Ameer ul Mumineen as the Army General. The very position of being Army General is that of leadership, of a ruler, if not that of the country or state. I havent fought in battles but I play enough realistic video games to know at least very general basics of how armies are supposed to work and managed.

Is there proof that Ayesha (ra) was appointed as the Army General by the then Khalifa i.e. Muawiyya? If Ayesha (ra) repented for being on the "wrong side," why did not Muawiyya did so?

Here is a quote by Imam Ghazali. Imam Ghazali was a rationalist, a philosopher of the highest rank and later repented for mixing philosophy with Islam. How could such an educated man adopt such a "conservative and backward" view?

Imaam al-Ghazaali said:

“The position of leader (imaam) could never be given to a woman even if she possessed all the qualities of perfection and self-reliance. How could a woman take the position of leader when she did not have the right to be a judge or a witness under most of the historical governments?”
Leadership of Caliphate and leadership of an army are 2 different things neither are all leaderships the same so dont come up with specific quotes in reference to specific situations for something general. Aisha led an army. If you have any proof that proves Aisha repented because she led an army and went in a postion of leadership instead of repenting because she took up arms against Ali than bring it forth. Aisha led an army when Uthman was assasinated and there was no acting ruler. I am not arguing that women should lead men in battle because I dont believe that particularly when they can lead other women in battle but the fact remains that Aisha did lead some men into battle. It was not the norm but like I have stated before it did occur.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-27-2010, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I dont think Karl denied that forced marriages happen. In Sindh, a province of Pakistan, villagers sometime marry their daughters with Quran .... NO ONE IS DENYING THIS IGNORANCE.

Your concerns are repetitively based on the contemporary insipid viewpoints of Western misandrists/socialists/atheists rather than from Islamic viewpoints.


Your political cliches sound more like something being bludgeoned into my ears by the mawkish catch-cries that I hear every time I dare to switch my tv channel over to BBC to listen to their drivelling propaganda machine in action.

According to him it all to do with the western media, Western misandrists/socialists/atheists.........blah
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-27-2010, 04:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhmadibnNasroon
I understand your concern however you're presenting a separate issue here. You cannot use what you see from Muslim countries and parallel that with the sharee3ah. Rather see what the sharee3ah says and then decide. As for juries, then allaahu'3lam I don't know of any such thing in the sharee3ah, rather you have a qadih who is presented a case and makes a verdict based upon evidences presented to him and the verdict is based upon knowledge of fiqh/sharee3ah.

But these issues presented doesn't change the fact that a woman leader is not good for the ummah. The Messenger told us this and Allah told us that men are the protectors and maintainers of women. The wali'ul 'Amr is exactly that, a wali to the people. There are many issues that were presented before from other posters that show why a woman is not capable of leading a nation.

Allah azza'wajal has blessed women with such a sacred role that they are the ones who nurture leaders. I feel sometimes sisters downgrade the position that Islam has blessed women with and this shouldn't be the case. We shouldn't get distracted or fooled by the images the kuffar depict to us as to what a "real" woman should be. Their success is not our success.

A woman who prays 5x a day, fasts, pays the zakat, goes to hajj, and obeys her husband will enter any of the gates of jannah. Just look at how great of a reward that is? A woman's jihad is hajj, just look at that. Look how Allah honored the woman and made her jannah easy for her to attain in certain respects.

Also regarding the Muslim countries and "juries", these lands do not rule by the hukm of Allah so its pointless in using them as an example. Rather lets look at how the sa7abah radiallaahu anhum ajma3een dealt with the issues you presented and use that as as a guide.

May Allah cause us to love the sharee3ah ameen
I was refering to Lilly btw. So if there isnt any such thing under sharee3ah, what Lilly talking about then when she said this: B]women can be part of juries and make decisions concerning their affairs, who said that they can't.. this is different from running a country![/B]

Anyway thanks, any good books you can refer me to, or articles or websites?
Reply

جوري
06-27-2010, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
yea it cant mean "mental deficiency." probably more to do with judgment in regards to religious matters? I really dont know. Wallahu AAlim. I dont think hormonal changes really effect women's thinking at all! I mean female scientists, does their productivity decrease when they go through menses? I dont think so.
hormonal changes can affect you in multitudes of ways and that applies to both men and women, women more though for more obvious reasons..

:w:
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 04:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
hormonal changes can affect you in multitudes of ways and that applies to both men and women, women more though for more obvious reasons..

:w:
you caught me, didnt you? :p

OK I meant, regular hormonal changes related to menstrual cycle. Of course decreasing amount of TRH or TH will significantly damage bodily systems and mental faculties. I apologize for not specifying hormonal changes related to menstrual cycle. Estrogen, progesterone, GnRH, Inhibin, LH, and FSH. Oxytocin to some extent.
w salam
Reply

جوري
06-27-2010, 04:56 AM
you can function normally of course but it has psychological effects on you and that varies from person to person.. some people have no sx at all psychological or otherwise and in extreme cases you have people with PMDD
http://pmdd.factsforhealth.org/what/

it doesn't make one less intelligent but it can be incapacitating for some .. are you less intelligent when you have a headache or are very tired and sleepy? of course not but it may cloud your judgment...

I think somebody here made a very valid point before I don't recall who and to tired myself to look, but Islam isn't built on the exception.. even in 'western democracy' laws aren't based on the exception...


and Allah swt knows best

:w:
Reply

syed_z
06-27-2010, 01:43 PM
Asalaam O Alaikum...just to let you people know i am new here.. so Salaam to Every one :)

Great discussion...


i just want to say few things...

i think that our sister..sweet106 ... is right.. and she does have the right to ask queries and put her concerns forward and we should help her in answering , which ever way is best... its natural with all Muslims that we do get angry sometimes, because we think that other Person is "Challenging" Allah (swt) ... but its not true.. we should all have patience (not Pointing towards any one!)


about Marriages... No one can force and make Women marry under Compulsion, rather that Marriage is Invalid, which is done under compulsion...

Like there is a Clear Tradition that mentions The Messenger of Allah (Saw) gave the choice to a woman, to reject marriage proposal if her parents were forcing...


Ibn Abbass (r.a) reported that a girl came to Messenger of Allah (Saw) and reported that her father had forced to marry without her consent. The Messenger of Allah (saw) gave her the choice (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it) (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469) In another version the girl said "actually i accept this marriage but i wanted the women to know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)." (Ibn Majah No. 1873)





so No one can force a Woman to marry... regarding many decisions made in the House, the Quran clearly speaks, that a Man and his Wife, both make decisions for the family on Mutual Agreement and by taking counsel like for example...


"... if they (husband, wife) desire to wean the child by Mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them..... " (2:233)

So Man's leadership in the House does NOT mean his dictatorship... there are many issues of the House in which the Wife may be able to give a sound judgment, rather than the father. Like a mother is definitely closer, to the children than the father, and vice versa. She can sense about the child sometimes, which the father might not be able to , as the mother spends more time with them, as father is busy working. So Man does not make ALL decisions in the House!


Similarly, there are many things in which women might make better decisions than men, and one of the Cases did take place during the time of Cliphate of Hazrat Umar (r.a) and it was an argument between a Woman and him (r.a)....after the Argument in the Masjid, Umar (r.a) said "A Woman is right and Umar is wrong."


Not only that byt also during the time of Prophet Muhammad (Saw) many incident took place, in which women came and argued their case and did participate in discussions when neccessary. Like for example...

(58:01) "God has indeed heard the words of her who pleads with you concerning her husband, and complains unto God.."

A woman by the name of Khawlah bint Thalabah came to Prophet (saw) and complained that her husband had given her a divorce according to the Pagan Jahilliya tradition of Zihar... which means when Man says to his wife "you are unlawful to me as my mother" and then women could not marry any more, and they were divorced instantly with those words said to them by their husband.

This Ignorance was abolished as soon as the above Verse was revealed. Such similar forms of ignorance prevail in Our societies, like Pakistan, Egypt, Iraq, etc. Islam is against such practices... so what im basically trying to say is, that Women CAN argue for their rights if not being given to them, and their decisions/opinions are NOT to be overlooked just because they are Women.


Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar (r.a)The Prophet (saw) said "Consult women about (the marriage of) their daughters." (Abu Daud Book 11, Number 2090)


So above mentioned as well as many other Traditions recorded.... Women did and should play, a role in decision making, wherever Neccessary.


Salaam :)
Reply

AhmadibnNasroon
06-27-2010, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I was refering to Lilly btw. So if there isnt any such thing under sharee3ah, what Lilly talking about then when she said this: B]women can be part of juries and make decisions concerning their affairs, who said that they can't.. this is different from running a country![/B]

Anyway thanks, any good books you can refer me to, or articles or websites?
Not on this subject matter. I don't know of any to be honest. You said you want to learn about Islam, I suggest starting from the basics and reading Kitab al-Tawhid with its explanation from Abdul Rahman ibn Nasir a'Sa3di rahimahullah. You can get it at any DarusSalam or other bookstores depending on where you're at.
Reply

AhmadibnNasroon
06-27-2010, 02:59 PM
I think everyone should calm down. I hate when these discussions get so heated. The important thing is to accept the ruling on these issues and all other debatable subjects lets just leave those to the ulemma.
Reply

syed_z
06-27-2010, 03:35 PM
Asalaam O Alaikumm Sister Hawa...

Actually the brother was right when he said Ayesha (r.a) did repent and it is mentioned in the Tafsir of Maulana Maududi named, Tafheem Ul Quran...

and he also made it clear, that Muslims say that since Ayesha (r.a) lead an army in the Battle of Jamal, so it could be permissible to make Women leader of the Ummah...

But he mentions this Verse whenever Ayesha (R.a) used to recite ...

(33:33) And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance.



Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal has related in his Zawa id az-Zuhd and Ibn Mundhir, Ibn Abi Shaibah and Ibn Sa'd in their own books the tradition from Masruq, saying that when Hadrat `A'ishah (r.a) during her recitation of the Qur'an would reach this verse (wa qarna fi buyut-i kunna) i.e Stay in Your Homes , she would start crying involuntarily; so much so that her head-wrapper would become wet, for this reminded her of the error that she had committed in the Battle of the Camel. (Tafheem Ul Quran)


So she did repent, NOT only over her mistake of going outside the House and leading an army, BUT also leading an Army against the 4th Guided Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib (r.a)... He was the Caliph of his time, and that is why Muslims consider him the 4th Rightly guided Caliph.. Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan was a Governor of Syria at that Time, NOT an Ameer of the Ummah...

Salaam
Reply

Masuma
06-27-2010, 10:12 PM
[taken from a video lecture which I posted before]

There is no text in the Quran which says that women can't become head of state. But there are ahadith which say that she can't become head of state.

Lets analyze whether it is advisable for a woman to be head of state or not.

If a woman is a head of a State in an Islamic country, she may have to lead the congregational prayer. And if a woman leads the congregational prayer; in Islam we have adoptable postures like Qiyam, Rukoo, Sujud i.e standing, bowing and prostration. And if a lady is doing that in front of a gents’ congregation, this would surely cause disturbances in the prayer.

If she happens to be the head of a modern society like the one we have today, many a times the head of the state has to hold meetings with other head of states which are mainly gents, and many a times they have close door meetings in which no one is allowed. And this Islam does not permit because we know that if a man and a woman are alone together, the third one between them is Satan. Islam does not permit intermingling of sexes.

For a head of state, it is necessary to meet the common man, and if the head of state is woman, she might not be able to meet common man and try to solve his problem.

And science tells us that a woman, during her menstrual period, undergoes certain behaviors, mental and psychological changes due to the release of sex hormones. And these changes surely disturb her in making the right decisions if she is the head of state.

Science also tells us that a woman has more verbal and vocal skills as compared to a man. And man has more ability to imagine things, to imagine future, to imagine a future project. And this ability is very important for a head of a state. A woman has been given an edge over the verbal and vocal skills which are required for motherhood.

A woman may get pregnant and she surely may require few months rest, so who will look after the state at this time?

She may have children. Her duty as a mother is far more important! And it is more practicable for a man who can do both duties; of a father as well as a head of state as compared to a woman if she has children.

So for these reasons, a woman should not be a head of state. But this does not mean that she can’t take part in making decisions! Woman has a right to vote; she has a right in law making.

At the time of treaty of Hudaybiya, Umme Salam (r.a) supported and guided the Prophet at a time when the whole Muslim community was disturbed. So surely a woman can help the man in making decisions about the State!
And Allah knows best!

:wa:
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-27-2010, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Asalaam O Alaikumm Sister Hawa...

Actually the brother was right when he said Ayesha (r.a) did repent and it is mentioned in the Tafsir of Maulana Maududi named, Tafheem Ul Quran...

and he also made it clear, that Muslims say that since Ayesha (r.a) lead an army in the Battle of Jamal, so it could be permissible to make Women leader of the Ummah...

But he mentions this Verse whenever Ayesha (R.a) used to recite ...

(33:33) And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance.



Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal has related in his Zawa id az-Zuhd and Ibn Mundhir, Ibn Abi Shaibah and Ibn Sa'd in their own books the tradition from Masruq, saying that when Hadrat `A'ishah (r.a) during her recitation of the Qur'an would reach this verse (wa qarna fi buyut-i kunna) i.e Stay in Your Homes , she would start crying involuntarily; so much so that her head-wrapper would become wet, for this reminded her of the error that she had committed in the Battle of the Camel. (Tafheem Ul Quran)


So she did repent, NOT only over her mistake of going outside the House and leading an army, BUT also leading an Army against the 4th Guided Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib (r.a)... He was the Caliph of his time, and that is why Muslims consider him the 4th Rightly guided Caliph.. Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan was a Governor of Syria at that Time, NOT an Ameer of the Ummah...

Salaam
jazakAllah for taking the time to provide proper evidence and proofs for what I told Hawa.
Reply

HAWA*~
06-28-2010, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Asalaam O Alaikumm Sister Hawa...

Actually the brother was right when he said Ayesha (r.a) did repent and it is mentioned in the Tafsir of Maulana Maududi named, Tafheem Ul Quran...

and he also made it clear, that Muslims say that since Ayesha (r.a) lead an army in the Battle of Jamal, so it could be permissible to make Women leader of the Ummah...

But he mentions this Verse whenever Ayesha (R.a) used to recite ...

(33:33) And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance.



Abdullah bin Ahmad bin Hanbal has related in his Zawa id az-Zuhd and Ibn Mundhir, Ibn Abi Shaibah and Ibn Sa'd in their own books the tradition from Masruq, saying that when Hadrat `A'ishah (r.a) during her recitation of the Qur'an would reach this verse (wa qarna fi buyut-i kunna) i.e Stay in Your Homes , she would start crying involuntarily; so much so that her head-wrapper would become wet, for this reminded her of the error that she had committed in the Battle of the Camel. (Tafheem Ul Quran)


So she did repent, NOT only over her mistake of going outside the House and leading an army, BUT also leading an Army against the 4th Guided Caliph Ali ibn Abi Talib (r.a)... He was the Caliph of his time, and that is why Muslims consider him the 4th Rightly guided Caliph.. Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan was a Governor of Syria at that Time, NOT an Ameer of the Ummah...

Salaam
I never said it would be permissable for women to lead the ummah but jazakhallah for bringing actual proof in regards to her repenting for even leading the army in the first place.
Reply

Muslimeen
06-28-2010, 08:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
Leaders don't raise themselves sis. A leader is raised because a mother stayed at home to raise him. She shaped his personality from which he extracted leadership qualities. It is because she 'looked after the house' that he is a leader today.
I agree 100% sister. If only we stuck to our roles that Allah Swt has given us, rather than trying to find loopholes. Approximately 124000 prophets sent by Allah, why not a single women?? Allah save us from the wisperings of shaitaan.
Reply

Snowflake
06-28-2010, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
yea it cant mean "mental deficiency." probably more to do with judgment in regards to religious matters? I really dont know. Wallahu AAlim. I dont think hormonal changes really effect women's thinking at all! I mean female scientists, does their productivity decrease when they go through menses? I dont think so.
A scientist's job doesn't involve emotions, so hormones can't affect their job mentally. But women base most, if not all their decisions on emotions, and emotions are affected by hormonal changes. (see postnatal depression as one example)

As for women being mentally deficient... I've quit watching it now but anyone who's watched the Maury lie detector results show, will agree that many women are mentally deficient. The instant a man says, 'I won't do it again, baby' despite the lie detector result saying he cheated on her 50 times, the woman is like 'you promise, you promise?' :'( If that isn't lacking brains then what is??? :heated:


Such ignorance across the Muslim world is still strong and carried out.
And in the muslim world, more women than men follow innovations, pray to the dead, and follow others blindly.
Reply

Karl
06-28-2010, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I am like any other Muslims should be against forced marriages.
Nonetheless, such matters are DOMESTIC and should NOT involve any arrogant, self-righteous, busybody government intervention. It should come down to parental prerogative because it is a domestic matter. It is NOT the state's business in the first place to either approve or disapprove of such practices when they are confined to the domestic realm. I am a staunch advocate of the traditional Patria Potestas model, and it also does say in the quran that one should obey their parents wishes. Therefore if hypothetically I ever happened to absolutely insist that my daughter or son married a certain individual that they objected to marrying then that is STILL my ultimate prerogative and they should obey my wishes. The quran does state that such forced marriages are usually unsuccessful, that is only logical, but nevertheless if the father so happens to override his daughter's or son's personal wishes then that is a matter for him and his offspring alone to deal with. It is none of anyone else's business. Governments should just keep out of all such matters.
Reply

Salahudeen
06-28-2010, 11:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Nonetheless, such matters are DOMESTIC and should NOT involve any arrogant, self-righteous, busybody government intervention. It should come down to parental prerogative because it is a domestic matter. It is NOT the state's business in the first place to either approve or disapprove of such practices when they are confined to the domestic realm. I am a staunch advocate of the traditional Patria Potestas model, and it also does say in the quran that one should obey their parents wishes. Therefore if hypothetically I ever happened to absolutely insist that my daughter or son married a certain individual that they objected to marrying then that is STILL my ultimate prerogative and they should obey my wishes. The quran does state that such forced marriages are usually unsuccessful, that is only logical, but nevertheless if the father so happens to override his daughter's or son's personal wishes then that is a matter for him and his offspring alone to deal with. It is none of anyone else's business. Governments should just keep out of all such matters.
Can the father even override his daughters or sons personal wishes when it comes to marriage? considering the following hadith

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"



Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as having said: "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3303)"

Doesn't that mean you can't marry her off without her consent?
Reply

Salahudeen
06-28-2010, 12:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Nonetheless, such matters are DOMESTIC and should NOT involve any arrogant, self-righteous, busybody government intervention. It should come down to parental prerogative because it is a domestic matter. It is NOT the state's business in the first place to either approve or disapprove of such practices when they are confined to the domestic realm. I am a staunch advocate of the traditional Patria Potestas model, and it also does say in the quran that one should obey their parents wishes. Therefore if hypothetically I ever happened to absolutely insist that my daughter or son married a certain individual that they objected to marrying then that is STILL my ultimate prerogative and they should obey my wishes. The quran does state that such forced marriages are usually unsuccessful, that is only logical, but nevertheless if the father so happens to override his daughter's or son's personal wishes then that is a matter for him and his offspring alone to deal with. It is none of anyone else's business. Governments should just keep out of all such matters.
The daugher/son is not sinful for disobeying their parents when they ask him to marry someone he doesn't want to.

It is definite that he should not obey them in the fifth case, which is where they force him to marry a girl whom they have chosen. This is not a matter in which he is obliged to obey them. Rather it is akin to food and drink: he may choose whatever he wants to eat and drink, and they have no right to control that.

Ibn Muflih al-Hanbali (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The parents have no right to force their son to marry someone he does not want. Shaykh Taqiy al-Deen (i.e., Ibn Taymiyah – may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Neither of the parents has the right to force their son to marry someone whom he does not want, and if he refuses then he is not sinning by disobeying them, because no one has the right to force him to eat food he finds off-putting when there is food that he wants to eat, and marriage is like that and more so. Food that one is forced to eat is unpleasant for a short while, but a forced marriage lasts for a long time, and it harms a person and he cannot leave it. End quote.

Al-Adaab al-Shar’iyyah (1/447)

full article here http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/98768/forced%20marriage
Reply

Karl
06-28-2010, 12:30 PM
@ squiggle, That still doesn't stop the father from disowning his offspring though, does it? I would say that most would still choose to obey their parents wishes rather than being disowned. Perhaps it would be best advised if the offspring at least give the marriage a TRY and later on down the track if things are still "so bad" then they can divorce. At least this is a respectful way of showing to their parents that "at least I gave it a go".
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 12:50 PM
Jazakallahu khaayr for responses.

@ Karl

And marriage meant to assist the individual to lower their gaze, how on earth can a forced marriage where the individual is not even attracted to the person on personally level and just married him or her for the sake of parent is going to assist them to lower their gaze?

At the end of the day, it is not the parents that will spend their most of their lives with daughters’ and sons’ spouse. It is ultimately the daughter or son that would have to live with the person.
No parents that love their child would force their children to marry someone they do not want. No means no. The parent can choose to disown their child, but no still means no.

If someone is forced to marry, the marriage is invalid. And can be examine by the court, so it is absolutely the authority business.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 12:53 PM
And divorce is frowned upon and should be the last option. Why should the person put themselves in that position? Why should a person do something that frowned upon in Islam just because they married that person to make the parents’ happy?
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
06-28-2010, 12:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
@ squiggle, That still doesn't stop the father from disowning his offspring though, does it? I would say that most would still choose to obey their parents wishes rather than being disowned. Perhaps it would be best advised if the offspring at least give the marriage a TRY and later on down the track if things are still "so bad" then they can divorce. At least this is a respectful way of showing to their parents that "at least I gave it a go".
why do i have a feeling that you are a troll :hmm:
the quran does state that such forced marriages are usually unsuccessful, that is only logical, but nevertheless if the father so happens to override his daughter's or son's personal wishes then that is a matter for him and his offspring alone to deal with.
where does it state that :hmm: it seems like you are just making up half logical rubbish to support your claims :hmm:
Reply

Salahudeen
06-28-2010, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
@ squiggle, That still doesn't stop the father from disowning his offspring though, does it? I would say that most would still choose to obey their parents wishes rather than being disowned. Perhaps it would be best advised if the offspring at least give the marriage a TRY and later on down the track if things are still "so bad" then they can divorce. At least this is a respectful way of showing to their parents that "at least I gave it a go".
So the father would disown his daughter for doing something halal that Allah has given her full rights to do? Why would he disown her when in the sight of Allah she has not done anything wrong. Allah will not look at her in a bad way for refusing to marry a person she doesn't want to. So why does the father look at her badly? Is his knowledge greater than Allah's that he can say which actions are bad and should be looked down upon? of course not,

Allah has made it halal for a woman to refuse a marriage she doesn't want so why disown her for something that Allah has given her the right to do? if you do not agree with this law then you should pick a bone with Allah not the daughter because she is only exercising the right Allah gave her.

Akhi we should only look down upon and get angry over that which Allah has made haraam, because all the pure and good things have been made halal so why get angry at some one for doing something that Allah has made halal for them to do. In this case the daughter exercising her right to refuse marriage.

Allah gave her this right, why should the father disown own her for something that Allah gave her permission to do? does he not agree with the law of Allah? wil he disown her for exercising the rights that the creator gave her? to me that implies that the father is unhappy with the law of Allah and does not agree with it.

How can you disown someone and be angry at them as long as they stay in the halal. It doesn't make sense to me, if Allah is not angry with it why should I be angry. If it was a bad thing then Allah would be angry with it too and he would've made it haraam for a woman to refuse her parents in this area.

but we know the opposite is true that it is completely halal for a son/daughter to refuse their parents with regards to a potential marriage partner. This is the right given to them by Allah. If you don't like this then you should take it up with Allah and ask him why he gave this right to the child. But that would not be wise. Indeed Allah is all just to every single one of his slaves and does not transgress the rights of any individual in the shari'a allah hu akbar.
Reply

cat eyes
06-28-2010, 02:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
@ squiggle, That still doesn't stop the father from disowning his offspring though, does it? I would say that most would still choose to obey their parents wishes rather than being disowned. Perhaps it would be best advised if the offspring at least give the marriage a TRY and later on down the track if things are still "so bad" then they can divorce. At least this is a respectful way of showing to their parents that "at least I gave it a go".
what makes you think you won't be punished for disowning your child?? don't be to confident now!
Reply

Insaanah
06-28-2010, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
That still doesn't stop the father from disowning his offspring though, does it?
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible for a Muslim to forsake his brother for more than three days.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6065. The sin is more serious if the forsaking for no reason involves a son, mother, brother or other relative, because in that case he is combining two sins: forsaking a Muslim and severing the ties of kinship.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

The parents have no right to force their son to marry someone he does not want. If he refuses he is not being disobedient; it is like forcing him to eat something he does not want. al-Ikhtiyaaraat, p. 344

From: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22724...g%20off%20ties
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-28-2010, 03:03 PM
Why would any loving parents disown their child for small reason like that! It not like they lost anything...
Reply

Salahudeen
06-28-2010, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Why would any loving parents disown their child for small reason like that! It not like they lost anything...
Exactly, it's not even as if they comitted a major/minor sin :hmm:
Reply

CosmicPathos
06-28-2010, 03:35 PM
Yea but parents are also emotional creatures .... when they nourish us, they attach too many hopes to us. I am not justifying their actions but I am trying to understand their point of view as well.
Reply

Karl
06-28-2010, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Yea but parents are also emotional creatures .... when they nourish us, they attach too many hopes to us. I am not justifying their actions but I am trying to understand their point of view as well.
Good post ...Would the Prophet (PBUH) go into a man's house and bark out this is haram and you must do this and that, Allah commands it!..of course not, he would not have lived long if he behaved like this. Islam is about respect and working things through and guidance not totalitarianism. Domestic issues are very sensitive and pontificating over them is not a good way. Here is an example...lets say a girl falls in love with a man. She is full of lust for him. At the same time her father and mother have got a match for her, the match is a good Muslim and a good provider. Her father tells the daughter he has a match for her, she is not sure what to do or say so she asks a friend what to do. The friend is not an Imam but rants out bits of the Hadiths and bits of the Quran and advises her that she can refuse her father and mothers wishes. She goes home and refuses her parents wishes, things get heated and hysterical so she runs away and goes with the man that she loves, he advises that they must leave the area for fear of the parents, so she runs away with him. He turns out to be a professional slave dealer. Enough said.
Reply

Karl
06-29-2010, 12:24 AM
Also getting too tied up in this and that is Halal and Haram is not a good idea as they are are in varying degrees of importance, the biggie is the Oneness of Allah, you cannot be forgiven if you are an idolater or worship any partners with Allah. Even the evil tyrant Sadam Hussain has a chance for Paradise as he converted to Islam before he was killed. Funny how he was buddies with the West for so long as he did his attrocities and he was crushed after he converted to Islam by the Legions of the West. And he called the USA the Great Satan...makes you think dosen't it?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
06-29-2010, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
Good post ...Would the Prophet (PBUH) go into a man's house and bark out this is haram and you must do this and that, Allah commands it!..of course not, he would not have lived long if he behaved like this. Islam is about respect and working things through and guidance not totalitarianism. Domestic issues are very sensitive and pontificating over them is not a good way. Here is an example...lets say a girl falls in love with a man. She is full of lust for him. At the same time her father and mother have got a match for her, the match is a good Muslim and a good provider. Her father tells the daughter he has a match for her, she is not sure what to do or say so she asks a friend what to do. The friend is not an Imam but rants out bits of the Hadiths and bits of the Quran and advises her that she can refuse her father and mothers wishes. She goes home and refuses her parents wishes, things get heated and hysterical so she runs away and goes with the man that she loves, he advises that they must leave the area for fear of the parents, so she runs away with him. He turns out to be a professional slave dealer. Enough said.
I can’t believe you are trying to justify forced marriage. There is no justification whatsoever. Enough said.

Nothing wrong with parents arranging a marriage but everything wrong with forced marriage even under this circumstance you have mentioned. She would be at fault, but her parents cannot force her to marry someone she does not want. Stop making excuses for it when the prophet peace be upon him said it was haram to force women to marry.

Since marriage can be invalid when forced and ruled invalid by Islamic court, it is absolutely the authority business not just domestic.

Mad scientist is right parents are emotional , even so, that does not mean force marriage is allowed! no means no!
Reply

CosmicPathos
07-05-2010, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I can’t believe you are trying to justify forced marriage. There is no justification whatsoever. Enough said.

Nothing wrong with parents arranging a marriage but everything wrong with forced marriage even under this circumstance you have mentioned. She would be at fault, but her parents cannot force her to marry someone she does want. Stop making excuses for it when the prophet peace be upon him said it was haram to force women to marry.

Since marriage can be invalid when forced and ruled invalid by Islamic court, it is absolutely the authority business not just domestic.

Mad scientist is right parents are emotional , even so, that does not mean force marriage is allowed! no means no!
Neither me nor Karl said that forced marriages are allowed. But we have to first define what constitutes a forced marriage.
Reply

cat eyes
07-05-2010, 05:54 PM
i cant believe this thread is still opened honestly..there no excuse for forced marriage in islam END OF it dosen matter what the situation

this thread should be closed now i think. its painting a bad picture of islam
Reply

Mansour Rifai
07-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Dear Brother

sorry but I was a bit struggling to establish a contact through but with no luck, so I have used one of your answers to send my question, I moving to Crawley in one month time with my family, and I am looking for an Islamic school or a good girls school for my daughter in Crawley, I need your urgent help please as I am running out of time before the summer holiday starts

ASA
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-05-2010, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Neither me nor Karl said that forced marriages are allowed. But we have to first define what constitutes a forced marriage.
What constitutes a forced marriage? When the girl says no!! or when she does not give an answer or when the marriage is sorted out without consulting her or when the parent disown her because
she says no!!!

"no mum and dad I dont want to marry" "i am not ready" is not enough for some people. How hard it is to understand force marriage and what constitutes a forced marriage. I think you are trying to justify it.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-05-2010, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mansour Rifai
Dear Brother

sorry but I was a bit struggling to establish a contact through but with no luck, so I have used one of your answers to send my question, I moving to Crawley in one month time with my family, and I am looking for an Islamic school or a good girls school for my daughter in Crawley, I need your urgent help please as I am running out of time before the summer holiday starts

ASA
huh? go to advise and support section, you will find decent advise there.
Reply

Cabdullahi
07-09-2010, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
The man leader would also have to spare time for his wife and children....

The husband can travel with her as well as the children and he can also have his job based on the government. He can earn whilst travelling.

And the decisions of wars get an easier with men does it? Not to mention she had a whole team behind her, scholars and other expert that would assist her to make important decisions.

its not a shopping centre where you can take your husband and kids

taking care of your kids and being their leader is better than leading a country
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
07-10-2010, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdullahii
its not a shopping centre where you can take your husband and kids

taking care of your kids and being their leader is better than leading a country
You can take care of the kids and lead a country. But I understand women are not allowed to lead a country.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!