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CosmicPathos
07-01-2010, 10:48 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/wo...stan.html?_r=2


Apparently, hes one of the "biggest" Sufis. The question is if he has magical powers while dead, why couldnt he stop the blast at his own shrine?!!!!
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CosmicPathos
07-05-2010, 05:48 PM
Religious leaders of the Barelvi sect in Pakistan have accused some top government officials in Punjab province of having contacts with the Taliban.
In a meeting with Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif the leaders demanded the resignation of at least one official, provincial law minister Rana Sanaullah.
The demand comes amid countrywide protests over a suicide attack in Lahore late last Thursday night.
Nearly 50 people were killed in the attack on a popular Sufi shrine.
'Contacts with terrorists' The Taliban, who are suspected of carrying out the attack, belong to the Deobandi school of Islam which opposes worship at shrines. Such worship is an important part of the faith of the majority Barelvis in Pakistan.
MAJOR MILITANT ATTACKS

Continue reading the main story
  • 1 July 2010 - 45 people killed in attack on Data Darbar shrine in Lahore
  • 28 May 2010 - 93 people killed in attacks on two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore
  • 19 Apr 2010 - At least 23 die in suicide bombing at market in Peshawar
  • 1 Jan 2010 - A bomb at a volleyball match kills about 100
  • 28 Oct 2009 - At least 120 die in car bomb attack on packed market in Peshawar
  • 15 Oct 2009 - About 40 die in a series of gun and bomb attacks
  • 9 Oct 2009 - At least 50 die in Peshawar suicide blast

Pakistani militants return to roots
The Taliban have targeted several shrines of Sufi saints in the country since 2009, apparently as part of a strategy to discourage people from visiting them.
Data Darbar in Lahore is the most popular of the shrines so far targeted.
The generally peace-loving Barelvi leaders have been calling for "armed retaliation" during protests over the weekend, while protesters have been seen brandishing guns, a rare sight in Barelvi gatherings.
"Rana Sanaullah's contacts with terrorists are most obvious, and he must resign," Haji Fazl-e-Karim, one of the Barelvi leaders, told the media after the meeting with the Punjab chief minister on Sunday.
He said the Barelvi leaders had also demanded tighter security at shrines and surveillance of some religious seminaries in the city.
Mr Sanaullah campaigned with a leader of the extremist group, Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), in what is seen as an attempt to win votes during a recent by-election in the province.
Shahbaz Sharif, and his brother, opposition leader Nawaz Sharif, are also accused by some of failing to crack down on Taliban militants. The Sharifs deny the allegations.
Officials said that during Sunday's meeting, Chief Minister Sharif ordered a joint committee of government officials and Barelvi scholars to be set up to look into their "grievances" and to address "misunderstandings".
There was an outcry earlier this year when Shahbaz Sharif appealed to the Taliban not to attack targets in Punjab. He said his PML-N party and the militants shared common cause, having both opposed Pakistan's former military ruler Pervez Musharraf.
In June it emerged that the Punjab government gave about $1m (£674,000) last year to institutions linked to the Jamaat-ud Dawa charity, which is on a UN terror blacklist.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/sou...a/10511046.stm




these stupid Barelvis, I abhor their shirk.
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Trumble
07-05-2010, 05:56 PM
Unconstructive comment deleted. Reps to the next poster.
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nousername
07-05-2010, 05:57 PM
He didn't asked to be worshiped after he died, so I don't know why the deceased has to have his gravesite blasted instead of being able to rest in peace. Did you know the blast was in the wudu area of the mosque? so apparently it was the Muslims that were targeted, not the shrine. You also shouln't accuse someone of shirk if you dont have direct proof, or else you will be punished in the Day of Judgment. How do you know that everyone of the people were committing shirk that were their? If you falsely accuse someone of shirk, that's a grave crime. Sounds like you are condoning the use of bombs to "teach" these people. Also non-combatants were killed such as children and I guess you are also happy about that?
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nousername
07-05-2010, 06:06 PM
If they are so concerned about the shirk, why not use a bulldozer to remove the shrine when no one is their, instead of when everyone is their? That would be civilized way
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Trumble
07-05-2010, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nousername
If they are so concerned about the shirk, why not use a bulldozer to remove the shrine when no one is their, instead of when everyone is their? That would be civilized way
No, the civilized way would be leave other people alone to practice their religion as they wish. If these psychopathic nutters are so worried about the shrines, they are under no obligation to go anywhere near them.
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Zafran
07-05-2010, 07:23 PM
salaam

The irony is that pakistan has had the most terrorists attacks in the world this past few months. This is just one of the attacks, the media (especially in the west) should cover every terrorist attack that happens in pakistan, they should know whos realy losing out on the "war on terror". The truth is that pakistan is going to be the new Afgahnistan - its literally being destroyed as we speak by the wacko terrorists and the crazy government. An already messed up nation is about to get worse.

Another thing is that you should be very careful of shouting shirk, I'm sure the people that go to these shrines dont think they are commiting shirk

peace
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Rhubarb Tart
07-05-2010, 07:28 PM
Does anyone think pakistan and Afgahnistan is going to be worse then Somalia?
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nousername
07-05-2010, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, the civilized way would be leave other people alone to practice their religion as they wish. If these psychopathic nutters are so worried about the shrines, they are under no obligation to go anywhere near them.
i meant that if they were so "concerned" about the shirk and not hurting the muslims, then don't kill and maim the people. i don't think the shrine should be dismantled in my opinion
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IslamicRevival
07-05-2010, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/wo...stan.html?_r=2


Apparently, hes one of the "biggest" Sufis. The question is if he has magical powers while dead, why couldnt he stop the blast at his own shrine?!!!!
I wonder who's behind it? The terrorist Taliban and their chums from Blackwater, The same people you support.. Regardless if he (May Azzawajal be pleased with him) is a sufi or now, why dont you speak out against the bombing and condemn it?

SubhanaAllah, You show disrespect towards the deceased and mock the way of the sufis, The same sufis who do not blow them selves up and kill innocent people unlike the terrorists you support.

Allah Hu Akbar, The ones who carried out this attack are a disgrace to humanity, May Allah Azzawajal wipe these people out from this earth. Ameen
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IslamicRevival
07-05-2010, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No, the civilized way would be leave other people alone to practice their religion as they wish. If these psychopathic nutters are so worried about the shrines, they are under no obligation to go anywhere near them.
Thank you, Thank you. You are spot on and anyone who disagrees with this statement is indeed a bigot of the highest caliber
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IslamicRevival
07-05-2010, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
these stupid Barelvis, I abhor their shirk.
SubhanAllah, Shirk in what sense? You mean shirk according to your warped ideology and understanding

Allah Hu Akbar. No Muslim , Bralvi, or whatever commits shirk, Its only people like you who are intolerant of other sects, so much so that you lie and spread false accusations against them.

The fact that you posted this news, Mocked the sufis, and failed to condemn the acts says everything about you. People like you make me sick!

May Allah Azzawajal grant all the deceased ones Jannah. Ameen.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-05-2010, 10:57 PM
....................:)

Ameen to duas.
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Zafran
07-05-2010, 11:01 PM
salaam

ameen that as well

peace
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Maryan0
07-05-2010, 11:09 PM
I dont agree with building structures over graves but if we are going to attck the sufis for doing so I think you need to begin with the Prophets (saw) grave, Khalid bin Waleed's grave and other early muslims that have structures over their graves today. Sufi's have some pretty different customs as i've seen in my homeland and they have many strange reasons for building structures over graves but I have never seen any worship the dead.
May Allah have mercy on the people who lost their lives. We muslims are far too numerous and diverse today for us to resort to blowing up people based on our differences.
Salam
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CosmicPathos
07-05-2010, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nousername
He didn't asked to be worshiped after he died, so I don't know why the deceased has to have his gravesite blasted instead of being able to rest in peace. Did you know the blast was in the wudu area of the mosque? so apparently it was the Muslims that were targeted, not the shrine. You also shouln't accuse someone of shirk if you dont have direct proof, or else you will be punished in the Day of Judgment. How do you know that everyone of the people were committing shirk that were their? If you falsely accuse someone of shirk, that's a grave crime. Sounds like you are condoning the use of bombs to "teach" these people. Also non-combatants were killed such as children and I guess you are also happy about that?
Did I say somewhere that I condone the bomb attack? Are you creating imaginary things and then refuting them? Seems to be the easy way out. I think this was a heinous crime. You are a liar for blaming me for being happy on death of children. Prophet Muhammad pbuh said that one sign of a munafiq is that he/she lies.
mods: this reply should not be deleted. It should be left intact for the world to see how this poster is deluded and blaming for something that I never suggested.
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CosmicPathos
07-05-2010, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
SubhanAllah, Shirk in what sense? You mean shirk according to your warped ideology and understanding

Allah Hu Akbar. No Muslim , Bralvi, or whatever commits shirk, Its only people like you who are intolerant of other sects, so much so that you lie and spread false accusations against them.

The fact that you posted this news, Mocked the sufis, and failed to condemn the acts says everything about you. People like you make me sick!

May Allah Azzawajal grant all the deceased ones Jannah. Ameen.
Yea if my ideology can be warped, how cant the Barelvi ideology be warped?

Which sufis did I mock? If "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri is really alive, why did not he save the visitor's from his grave from the attack? In fact this shows, "Hazrat" Ali Hajver is lying in his grave, powerless, and cant do anything to even stop bomb attacks on his grave. Let alone expecting him to cure cancer. But is not that the Barelvi aqeedah, the dead can listen and can help (by the will of Allah, only some Barelvi clerics add that clause).

Now since you have mentioned it, yea I have the right to mock Barelvi Sufis if Barelvi Sufis have the right to practice their sect. I have every Islamic right to mock superstitious quackery and grave worship. Anyone remembers that Voltage Mullah video who electrocutes anyone touching him.

How could the terrorists take the bombs while the metal detectors were in place?

How can you force me to "condemn the attack?" Is it my Islamic obligation? Is it in the 5 faraid to condemn and get involved in worldly talk? its sad to see so many human beings killed but one has to wonder why did they go to the annual ceremony on the grave? Perhaps if they had avoided being a part of this Biddah then Allah swt would have spared their lives. I pray to Allah that the kith and kin of those killed realize that "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri has no miraculous powers and he cannot save anyone, cure anyone ... if he did why couldnt he save their loved ones from this cowardly attack.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lisa0
I dont agree with building structures over graves but if we are going to attck the sufis for doing so I think you need to begin with the Prophets (saw) grave, Khalid bin Waleed's grave and other early muslims that have structures over their graves today. Sufi's have some pretty different customs as i've seen in my homeland and they have many strange reasons for building structures over graves but I have never seen any worship the dead.
May Allah have mercy on the people who lost their lives. We muslims are far too numerous and diverse today for us to resort to blowing up people based on our differences.
Salam
Not only sufis build structures but Qadianis as well. Many other sects do that too. Its common in Christianity as well. Saint worship and martyrdom.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nousername
If they are so concerned about the shirk, why not use a bulldozer to remove the shrine when no one is their, instead of when everyone is their? That would be civilized way
Where did you pull the info that the bomb attack occurred because they wanted to remove the Shrine? LOL. Thats a funny way to look at the news, I gotta say that.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 01:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Yea if my ideology can be warped, how cant the Barelvi ideology be warped?

Which sufis did I mock? If "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri is really alive, why did not he save the visitor's from his grave from the attack? In fact this shows, "Hazrat" Ali Hajver is lying in his grave, powerless, and cant do anything to even stop bomb attacks on his grave. Let alone expecting him to cure cancer. But is not that the Barelvi aqeedah, the dead can listen and can help (by the will of Allah, only some Barelvi clerics add that clause).

Now since you have mentioned it, yea I have the right to mock Barelvi Sufis if Barelvi Sufis have the right to practice their sect. I have every Islamic right to mock superstitious quackery and grave worship. Anyone remembers that Voltage Mullah video who electrocutes anyone touching him.

How could the terrorists take the bombs while the metal detectors were in place?

How can you force me to "condemn the attack?" Is it my Islamic obligation? Is it in the 5 faraid to condemn and get involved in worldly talk? its sad to see so many human beings killed but one has to wonder why did they go to the annual ceremony on the grave? Perhaps if they had avoided being a part of this Biddah then Allah swt would have spared their lives. I pray to Allah that the kith and kin of those killed realize that "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri has no miraculous powers and he cannot save anyone, cure anyone ... if he did why couldnt he save their loved ones from this cowardly attack.
salaam

Hes clearly got a secterian bias - for this reason I think the Mods should intervene in this thread.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 01:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

Hes clearly got a secterian bias - for this reason I think the Mods should intervene in this thread.
no I dont. As if you dont have a sectarian bias based on whatever sect you follow. :p

My issue is with lying to masses made of millions of Pakistani illiterate and innocent ppl that hazrat ali Hajveri will answer their prayers ..... so visit him and seek his blessing .... his blessing could not stop the bomb in his own shrine.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 01:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
no I dont. As if you dont have a sectarian bias based on whatever sect you follow. :p

My issue is with lying to masses made of millions of Pakistani illiterate and innocent ppl that hazrat ali Hajveri will answer their prayers ..... so visit him and seek his blessing .... his blessing could not stop the bomb in his own shrine.
salaam

You clearly havent read the rules of this forum. Lets wait for the mods.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 01:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

You clearly havent read the rules of this forum. Lets wait for the mods.
avoiding questions? its a good tactic to censor genuine questions. My question has nothing to do with any sect! And that news abotu Barelvis blaming the Deobandis is right from BBC, I did not say anything from my own self. Just copied and pasted.

Why couldnt the shrine of Hazrat Ali Hajveri protect the visitor's from dying?

Mods, is that not a genuine question? It has no sectarian bias in it. I am asking a simple question.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 01:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
avoiding questions? its a good tactic to censor genuine questions. My question has nothing to do with any sect!

Why couldnt the shrine of Hazrat Ali Hajveri protect the visitor's from dying?

Mods, is that not a genuine question? It has no sectarian bias in it. I am asking a simple question.
salaam

My friend your talking about Tawassul - thats a grey area, five minutes ago you were screaming about Brevlis and then you went off a tangent about sufis - as I said re read the forum rules. For the mean time lets wait for the mods.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

My friend your talking about Tawassul - thats a grey area, five minutes ago you were screaming about Brevlis and then you went off a tangent about sufis - as I said re read the forum rules. For the mean time lets wait for the mods.
Hey,

I didnt start talking about Barelvis. Troubled Soul did.

The point of this whole thread started by me was to see if Hazrat Ali Hajveri could save the people dying at his shrine or not. It has nothing to do with sectarian division. It just happens that Barelvis have blamed deobandis for it and I just felt that I should update this page. You do realize that some Deobandis also believe in tawassul?

I am not talking about any of that. The purpose of this thread was to ask you guys to prove if Hazrat Hajveri is really that powerful or if its all a myth.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Hey,

I didnt start talking about Barelvis. Troubled Soul did.

The point of this whole thread started by me was to see if Hazrat Ali Hajveri could save the people dying at his shrine or not. It has nothing to do with sectarian division. It just happens that Barelvis have blamed deobandis for it and I just felt that I should update this page. You do realize that some Deobandis also believe in tawassul?

I am not talking about any of that. The purpose of this thread was to ask you guys to prove if Hazrat Hajveri is really that powerful or if its all a myth.
salaam

if thats your purpose then your on the wrong forum - this forum is called Islamicboard. By the way your the one who brought Brelvis up and Troubled Soul was replying to you - thats why he quoted you. As I said Tawassul is a grey area some scholars approve of it others dont.

peace
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 02:13 AM
Alllah (swt) did not set off the bomb. He took their lives way as it was their time. There is no excuse for someone to set a bomb like this, and say oh Allah (swt) would have spare their lives. We all have time ticking bomb, these people would have died of other means but their lives were taken away by bombs set up by people.

Omar cross the road and was hit by a car. If only he did not cross the road maybe Allah (swt) would spare his life. What logic can that be?

If omar just cross the road and took the driver by surprise, it wouldnt be the driver's fault. However if he driver was speeding, or was drunk it would be his fault completely.

We should absolutely condemn this attack, what excuse is there to justify such attack on people?
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 02:16 AM
But I completely agree with you, noone can save you when it is your time.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Alllah (swt) did not set off the bomb. He took their lives way as it was their time. There is no excuse for someone to set a bomb like this, and say oh Allah (swt) would have spare their lives. We all have time ticking bomb, these people would have died of other means but their lives were taken away by bombs set up by people.

Omar cross the road and was hit by a car. If only he did not cross the road maybe Allah (swt) would spare his life. What logic can that be?

If omar just cross the road and took the driver by surprise, it wouldnt be the driver's fault. However if he driver was speeding, or was drunk it would be his fault completely.

We should absolutely condemn this attack, what excuse is there to justify such attack on people?
No one justified the attack. Who is doing that? Rather I am asking the ppl here why couldnt Hazrat Hajveri prevent this heinous crime from taking place on his own turf if he has the magical powers and the blessing to heal people!

@ Zafran: you are not answering my question. Is that the tactic all Barelvi-supporters use?
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Woodrow
07-06-2010, 04:27 AM
Please everybody stay on topic and address the posts not the posters. While this is speaking about a sect, I personally do not see the issue as being sectarian. This was an act some of us may feel is horrific and others may see it as justified. Let us keep all discussion to facts and not dwell on the differences in practices.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Please everybody stay on topic and address the posts not the posters. While this is speaking about a sect, I personally do not see the issue as being sectarian. This was an act some of us may feel is horrific and others may see it as justified. Let us keep all discussion to facts and not dwell on the differences in practices.
jazkaAllah br Woodrow.


To others: My question still stands. Without resorting to any sectarian belief, people were visiting the shrine because they believed the Saint can protect them, heal them, given them blessings. We all agree on that, right? These people could be from any sects, I do not care.

My question is then why could not the Saint prevent such a terrible terrible crime .... :(
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Trumble
07-06-2010, 06:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
My question is then why could not the Saint prevent such a terrible terrible crime .... :(
Here's a possible answer, then. He could have prevented it, but chose not to either because it somehow benefitted those killed and maimed, or for mysterious, incomprehensible reasons of his own. Sound familiar?

Now, with that out of the way, you might want to reflect on what the really important questions are that should be asked in connection with this atrocity.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 06:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Here's a possible answer, then. He could have prevented it, but chose not to either because it somehow benefitted those killed and maimed, or for mysterious, incomprehensible reasons of his own. Sound familiar?

Now, with that out of the way, you might want to reflect on what the really important questions are that should be asked in connection with this atrocity.
no, but the saint is not all power-ful. He always helps people. He has no eternal knowledge. So that argument cannot be applied.
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titus
07-06-2010, 07:56 AM
no, but the saint is not all power-ful. He always helps people. He has no eternal knowledge. So that argument cannot be applied.
I am not sure how it works with this group, but in Christianity people don't ask the Saint themselves to help. They ask the Saint to intervene for them with God. The Saint does not do anything, he only asks God to do things. God decides whether to do them or not.

Regardless, it does seem strange that after a horrific incident like this you want to start a thread ridiculing the beliefs of the people that were killed and not the beliefs of the people doing the killing.
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Woodrow
07-06-2010, 12:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I am not sure how it works with this group, but in Christianity people don't ask the Saint themselves to help. They ask the Saint to intervene for them with God. The Saint does not do anything, he only asks God to do things. God decides whether to do them or not.

Regardless, it does seem strange that after a horrific incident like this you want to start a thread ridiculing the beliefs of the people that were killed and not the beliefs of the people doing the killing.
I believe now is a good time to look carefully at those responsible for this act and evaluate if actions like this support Islam or are anti-Islamic in themselves. Innocents were killed, this was not a physical threat nor an act of aggression against Islam, if those killed were in error was this a proper method of correcting their errors?
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 12:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
No one justified the attack. Who is doing that? Rather I am asking the ppl here why couldnt Hazrat Hajveri prevent this heinous crime from taking place on his own turf if he has the magical powers and the blessing to heal people!

@ Zafran: you are not answering my question. Is that the tactic all Barelvi-supporters use?
Why do you need to ask such question? The question doesn’t alter the horrendous act does it? What benefits does your question have?

Answer to your question was already answered.

noone can save you when it is your time.
I see no benefits to your question at all.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Why do you need to ask such question? The question doesn’t alter the horrendous act does it? What benefits does your question have?

Answer to your question was already answered.



I see no benefits to your question at all.

Just because you dont see the benefit, I shouldnt ask it? Who are you to dictate what I should ask and what I shouldnt? Quite frankly, if I was the one saying that to you, you'd be furious all over and arguing for women rights and saying how women are not allowed to speak in Pakistan, and all that hoop-la.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I am not sure how it works with this group, but in Christianity people don't ask the Saint themselves to help. They ask the Saint to intervene for them with God. The Saint does not do anything, he only asks God to do things. God decides whether to do them or not.

Regardless, it does seem strange that after a horrific incident like this you want to start a thread ridiculing the beliefs of the people that were killed and not the beliefs of the people doing the killing.
to be honest, there are 999999 million websites that are condemning the attacks. I do not see the reason to make my thread to follow the bandwagon. I am asking a question regarding the beliefs of those people visiting the grave, and who survived the attack (they are alive!). The beliefs of the person or persons who did the attack have been ridiculed enough in the world that I did not see a reason to invest my energy in that as well (we shouldnt reinvent the wheel again and again, right).


NOTE: this thread is not about justifying any sort of criminal actions for even the weirdest of theological beliefs. Even if people were drinking cow's piss, no one would have the right to kill them. This thread is about trying to penetrate into the beliefs of those who were attacked.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Just because you dont see the benefit, I shouldnt ask it? Who are you to dictate what I should ask and what I shouldnt? Quite frankly, if I was the one saying that to you, you'd be furious all over and arguing for women rights and saying how women are not allowed to speak in Pakistan, and all that hoop-la.
Let be honest here, you are asking such “beneficial” question as a mean of gloating that people died which they cannot be saved. Otherwise why would you ask such obvious question?
What kind of question was that though? When your time is up, it is up. No one can save you.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Let be honest here, you are asking such “beneficial” question as a mean of gloating that people died which they cannot be saved. Otherwise why would you ask such obvious question?
What kind of question was that though? When your time is up, it is up. No one can save you.
salaam

I'll second that.

peace
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 03:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Let be honest here, you are asking such “beneficial” question as a mean of gloating that people died which they cannot be saved. Otherwise why would you ask such obvious question?
What kind of question was that though? When your time is up, it is up. No one can save you.
Exactly. So where are all the magical powers of the Sufi saints ... why dont they protect their devotees! I want the millions of illiterate Pakistanis to get rid of this superstitious myth which makes the deviant clerical leechs rich and rich when they organize such events where millions of people show up due to their ignorance. ... I want these illiterate Pakistanis to question the clerical leeches who are sucking them into this hell-hole of superstition, quackery, magic, and delusion .
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 03:56 PM
salaam

what about Karamat?
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Exactly. So where are all the magical powers of the Sufi saints ... why dont they protect their devotees! I want the millions of illiterate Pakistanis to get rid of this superstitious myth which makes the deviant clerical leechs rich and rich when they organize such events where millions of people show up due to their ignorance. ... I want these illiterate Pakistanis to question the clerical leeches who are sucking them into this hell-hole of superstition, quackery, magic, and delusion .
And do yo think these illiterate Pakistanis are here...reading your warning?

Afterall, they are illiterate Pakistanis, pretty amazing if they can use the computer I tell ya.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
And do yo think these illiterate Pakistanis are here...reading your warning?

Afterall, they are illiterate Pakistanis, pretty amazing if they can use the computer I tell ya.
salaam

LOL good one.

peace
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
And do yo think these illiterate Pakistanis are here...reading your warning?

Afterall, they are illiterate Pakistanis, pretty amazing if they can use the computer I tell ya.
Whether they are here or not, I'd like to make my point clear. Whether they are reading it or not. Someone from their family might be literate. He might read this and then explain to his parents. NO?

I know many members here whose parents do that kind of stuff. I wont name names. These members are sick n tired of their parents doing this kind of stuff. Perhaps these members might read something from here and explain to their parents? So you want their misguidance?

But hey, you are really being irrational and cocky at this point now. Trying to refute the reasons I am doing this by clutching onto a straw?
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

what about Karamat?
what is this karamaat? Ooh, that voltage mullah things. A big LOL.
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
what is this karamaat? Ooh, that voltage mullah things. A big LOL.
salaam

well maybe if you did do some research before asserting things might help you answer your question. Your quite arrogant.

peace
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 04:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Whether they are here or not, I'd like to make my point clear. Whether they are reading it or not. Someone from their family might be literate. He might read this and then explain to his parents. NO?

I know many members here whose parents do that kind of stuff. I wont name names. These members are sick n tired of their parents doing this kind of stuff. Perhaps these members might read something from here and explain to their parents? So you want their misguidance?

But hey, you are really being irrational and cocky at this point now. Trying to refute the reasons I am doing this by clutching onto a straw?
And you think these members dont know this without you telling them? You think these members are not smart enough to tell the parents about such news which probably widespread in their country?

Hey I am not the one that came here gloating that fact that these people died. And like someone already told you, how do you know these people were committing shirk?

You are pretty insensitive. Hence: the strong reaction you received not by me at all.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

well maybe if you did do some research before asserting things might help you answer your question. Your quite arrogant.

peace
ive heard that couple of times from people who have no answer to my questions. my friends never told me that though so I believe I am not arrogant. so Id take your comment with "a grain of salt."
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Zafran
07-06-2010, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
ive heard that couple of times from people whom I am trying to refute. my friends never told me that though. so Id take your comment with "a grain of salt."
salaam

It seems you like refuting a lot of people, the amount of negative replies you got from this forum says a lot. Have you even actaully refuted anything so far.

peace
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'Abd Al-Maajid
07-06-2010, 04:21 PM
mad_scientist. What kinda question are you asking! Those people could not even help themselves under the graves so how can they stop such activities. Your question is pointless...THEY ARE DEAD they cant stop anything or do any karamat. karamats are performed by some mischievous Jinn.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

It seems you like refuting a lot of people, the amount of negative replies you got from this forum says a lot. Have you even actaully refuted anything so far.

peace
I like the negativity and hostility towards me. Surprising to see it coming from Muslims, eh.
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
And you think these members dont know this without you telling them? You think these members are not smart enough to tell the parents about such news which probably widespread in their country?

Hey I am not the one that came here gloating that fact that these people died. And like someone already told you, how do you know these people were committing shirk?

You are pretty insensitive. Hence: the strong reaction you received not by me at all.
who was gloating? I believe that we will die when Allah will say so.

But I was saying that these people died while committing sin and bidah by visiting the grave as part of anniversary. May Allah give us a better death. remember the guy whom Sahaaba used to think was a best muslim. But do you know how he died? he committed suicide in battlefield.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 04:28 PM
I dont think I was being negative towards you at all. In fact I was responding how you often respond to people.

May I should place a pictures of roses and heart to make my comment seem a little nicer. Anyways you received the answer to your question right?

And I am glad you condemn this attack and think it is wrong. I don’t anyone can ask any more of you. You made that clear.

Btw I don’t dislike you at all.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-06-2010, 04:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
who was gloating? I believe that we will die when Allah will say so.

But I was saying that these people died while committing sin and bidah by visiting the grave as part of anniversary. May Allah give us a better death. remember the guy whom Sahaaba used to think was a best muslim. But do you know how he died? he committed suicide in battlefield.
Okay maybe you were not gloating but you appear to be gloating. Anyways I agree with everything you said, but you and I have no right to judge such people though. Are we not allowed to visit grave at anytime, I did not know that was sin?
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CosmicPathos
07-06-2010, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I dont think I was being negative towards you at all. In fact I was responding how you often respond to people.

May I should place a pictures of roses and heart to make my comment seem a little nicer. Anyways you received the answer to your question right?

And I am glad you condemn this attack and think it is wrong. I don’t anyone can ask any more of you. You made that clear.

Btw I don’t dislike you at all.
hey thanks for that. We are still brothers and sisters in Islam, differences aside. I am off to sleep, inshAllah.

wsalam
Reply

Zafran
07-06-2010, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
ive heard that couple of times from people who have no answer to my questions. my friends never told me that though so I believe I am not arrogant. so Id take your comment with "a grain of salt."
salaam

so first you hear this from people that you refute now its people that have no answer to your questions? which one is it? you have to be right one way or another.

peace
Reply

'Abd Al-Maajid
07-06-2010, 04:36 PM
^ sorry to interrupt:embarrass.Visiting a grave is allowed to pray for the deceased and to remember our death but decorating a grave and building structures over them is forbidden. Tell me one thing how many people remember their death while visiting the shrines?
Reply

Salahudeen
07-06-2010, 07:33 PM
Unfortunately I have relatives who visit these shrines and call upon these dead saints. Some even go as far as to prostrate to them, they believe these dead saints can help them in all their affairs because they are the real friends of Allah. They make Dua to these dead saints and ask them for wordly things, I asked them why they do this and they say "this dead saints are the friends of allah, if we ask them we will get what we want because we are to inpure/sinful to ask Allah directly so we have more chance of getting what we want by going through these saints"

And they go there and leave offerings for the saints. This is why it is forbidden to make shrines over graves, the prophet forbade it if I'm not mistaken for this very reason, the fact that people would take them as places of worship.

I've tried to educate them but to no avail, I even told them this is what the mushrikeen of Makkah would say "we use these idols as intercessors between us and Allah as we are too inpure to approach Allah directly" but they still continue :(
Reply

brotherubaid
07-06-2010, 09:51 PM
Assalam O Alikum wa rahmatulahi wa baraktuhu,

First and foremost , what ever happened in lahore it was wrong , unislamic , those who commited were murderous thugs who will be InshahAllah taken to account for what they did on the day of judgement , Killing human beings , civilian muslims or NON MUSLIMS is all forbidden in our religion, its sad that in pakistan such acts are carried out in the name of jihaad or other reasons but regardless of the reason such acts are PROHIBITTED its a shame the famous online scholar anwar al awlaki has recently declared that its premissible to kill amerian civilians , hope his new video opens the eyes of the countless youth that follwo him just coz he can speak english fluently and they have absolutely no one to listen to besides him and he has some nice lectures and series about lifes of prophets n companions , regardless he has changed and has deviated from the right path and is a caller for murder and mischief in the land so MAY ALLAH save our youth in the west from his misguidance. But back to the point in Islam we cannot kill civilians , muslims or non muslims under any circumstances, so what happened in lahore was indeed a crime against humanity , a crime hated by Allah , fassad in the earth and mischief, may Allah save us all.

Here i think brother mad scientist propbably started the wrong discussion at the wrong time , remmebr that even reminder only helps if did at the right time and in the right way , u do not think for one second brother that coz of your harsh comments some of the brevlis will EVER come to sunnah and the right way and leave off the innovations and shirk n all , rather it will drive them more and further away from the sunnah and people of sunnah.

Allah says is surah al aala, فذكر ان نفعت الذكرى

So it was propably the wrong place to start a discussion about the brelvis and shrines and all , first things first , first we have to acknowledge that the act carried out would be FORBIDDEN and PROHIBITED even if it was carried out in taj mahal hotel in india or even in a hindu temple , even though it was carried out in a shire in a muslim land , in all ways such acts are haram like i said even on hindu temples let alone shrines , and even though shrines have no place or legislation what so ever in Islam , coz remmember brothers n sisters , that the ONLY AUTHORITIES that legislate something in islam is Allah and his messneger , so if Allah did not inform us of shrines and all that happens at them and his messneger did not inform us f shrines and what happens in them and to do with the graves what is being done by the sufis than there is no place what so ever in islam for shrines , no matter how Pious and righteous those who lay underneath them are. They are actually free fromwhat people do at these shrines and in here after they will free them selfes from such people.

But before i get into that further i say it over and over and over again at this forum and others , the Brothers and Sisters we HAVE A PROBLEM!

WE HAVE ON OUR HANDS A PROBELM THAT NEEDS OUR UTMOST ATTENTION !!

It is the problem of extremism , its the problem of taking matters in ones own hands , its the problem of dong jihaad while not even knowing how to do jihaad , its the Anger , the hate , the extreme thought is out there in the muslim lands n inthe muslim communities , its time to ACKNOWLEDGE THE PROBLEM , and come out of denial and STOP manking hundreds of thousands of excuses for all sort of terrorist activities all over the world and blame the west for it or prptect and find excuses for those who are involved in it and take their backs , its time to find a solution , and TEACH , and EDUCATE , and Help teh communities in eradicating these thoughts , theses ideologies , these methodoligies , by Allah they are present amongst us , adnd they are Unislamic in every sense n in every way and it is doing MUCH harm to islam and muslims.

So i invite you to please join those who have been fighting it for decades, those who have been warning , those who have been teaching and speaking out , those who have been trying to explain and educate. The imams of sunnah , and the great scholars have been warning for decades now but the problem is we are distant from the scholars.

so i ask you to read , to know , to help your self and others stay away from these thoughts and these ideologies

www.islamagainstextremism.com http://www.answering-extremism.com www.takfiris.com


So in no way is the attakcs of this shrine justified in Islam , nor are the attacks on churches or temples or ahmadis or anyother religion.
It is all Murder and may Allah save us and protect us all.


Now as far as shrines go and all the talk about shirk n all , i want to ask my brothers n sisters who follwo the sufi way , or were born in sufi families , or are brelvis to please read , take time to read , remmber the first verse , rather the first word that our lord revealed to our dear prophet muhammad sala lahu alihi wa sallam was IQRA! READ ! so brothers n sisters , it is no secret that our Ummah will split into 73 sects we were told by the one who does not speak out of his desires rather whenever he speaks it a revelation revealed , he is the truthful sala lahu alihi wa sallam , he informed us that there will be sects and ALL of them will be in fire except ONE , the one that will be upon WHAT THE PROPHET SALA LAHU ALIHI WA SALLAM AND HIS COMPANIONS WERE UPON AT THE TIME THIS HADEETH WAS SAID BY THE PROPHET.

so do u for one second think that they were upon the modern day sufism?? do u think they were upon shrines?? didnt Hamzza the leader oب martyrs die and the prohets heart was broken and he led 70 janazahs for him , well where is his shirne? and how did the prophet and his companions deal with hamzas shrine after he was martyred ?? how many times the sahaba , the tabieen , those who follwoed the tabieen went to hamzas shrine for help or to ask Allah for help at a shrine? how many times did the sahaba go to th grave of the prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam in a manner that WE NOW go to these shrines of those who are FAR les in rank than the prophet sala lahu alihiw a salam??

oh! didnt khadeejah die radi allahu anha ? didnt prophets daughters die in his life and his sons? didnt his beloved sahaba die? on and off the battle field? didnt and didnt people much higher in ranks than the righetous people of the subcontinent die in the past and there was no shrien what soe ever for them or a need for one, rather the prophet FORBADE such actions and on the conquest of Makkah asked for the idols to be bestroyed , pictures destroyed and graves broken down and brought down to ground? wasnt there a wisdom behind the graves being destroyed?

And yes i knwo alllllll the evidences and proofs that they bring, yes now a days every caller when he calls upon his way or the way he is upon he has some verses from quran that he uses as evidence , he has his ahadeeth taht he uses as evidence and proof, leave muslism even christians , how many times do we have debates where the muslim "apparently" loses so does it mean that the person he was having a debate is on teh right religion? just coz people can bring proofs and twist and turn texts and make a good point does not prove something to be right or wonrg Rtaher the haqq the truth remains the truth and back to the point when u bring those ayaat , those proofs we ask WHOSE UNDERSTANDING IS IT?

who from the past understood this certain ayah or this certain hadeeth in a way that U now understand it and use it ??

These ayaat and ahadeeth were presnet , i mean forget that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam himself was present amongst the companions and tyhey did not understand these ayaat and ahadeeth and the religion in a manner that U understood it and apply it.

So when we are out there to understand the deen , the aqeedah , the manhaj we have to go back to the underatsnding of the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam and his companions and after that those who follwoed them from the tabieen and taba tabieen, the first three generations, THAT IS THE right UNDERSTANDING , that si the deen on which we should be upon , that is the way of succes , that is the way of salvation.

So i call upon all the brothers and sisters who were born in sufi families to Read , to see what the diffrences are , why do some people consider the things that u consdier right to be wrong ? What is their proof ? what is the proof and evidence of what you are upon ? who else from the past and the first three generations was upon what u are upon? and what is the other side of the story ? what are these people that claim to be on sunnah upon? if they consider it shirk well what is the proof of their manhaj their way tehir understanding? what boosk ar ethey reading and where do they get their deen from? what is their aqeedah and again what is the source of their aqeedah? does it trace back to the sahaba and best generations?

Read , read the books , ask ? investigate unbaised sources, and InshahAllaj whom so ever Allah wants to guide will be guided.


U can read books like the three fundamental principles

The book of tahweeh

The four principles

U can read books of aqeedah

and if u want u can read the books of refutations of diffrent sects , u can read the books of ehsan elahi zaheer like al barailwiyah and others.

most of all you can read the translation of the quraan , but then again it has to be something unbaised , something un altered and tampered with , something not belonging to a particular sect coz ur language is not arabic u will be trusting the translator and like in the book kanz ul emaan the trabslator will clearly change the line from surah al kahf " I am a human just like you " to " i am APPARENTLY a human just like u"( in reality i am not i am noor and not bashar) so u have to get your knowledge , u have to do your research , see what u are upona nd what the others are uponand WHY do they consider it shirk or innovation or misguidance.


May Allah bless you all and may Allah guide us all to the way o fthe sahaba , the tabieen and those who followed them.
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IslamicRevival
07-06-2010, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Yea if my ideology can be warped, how cant the Barelvi ideology be warped?

Which sufis did I mock? If "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri is really alive, why did not he save the visitor's from his grave from the attack? In fact this shows, "Hazrat" Ali Hajver is lying in his grave, powerless, and cant do anything to even stop bomb attacks on his grave. Let alone expecting him to cure cancer. But is not that the Barelvi aqeedah, the dead can listen and can help (by the will of Allah, only some Barelvi clerics add that clause).

Now since you have mentioned it, yea I have the right to mock Barelvi Sufis if Barelvi Sufis have the right to practice their sect. I have every Islamic right to mock superstitious quackery and grave worship. Anyone remembers that Voltage Mullah video who electrocutes anyone touching him.

How could the terrorists take the bombs while the metal detectors were in place?

How can you force me to "condemn the attack?" Is it my Islamic obligation? Is it in the 5 faraid to condemn and get involved in worldly talk? its sad to see so many human beings killed but one has to wonder why did they go to the annual ceremony on the grave? Perhaps if they had avoided being a part of this Biddah then Allah swt would have spared their lives. I pray to Allah that the kith and kin of those killed realize that "Hazrat" Ali Hajveri has no miraculous powers and he cannot save anyone, cure anyone ... if he did why couldnt he save their loved ones from this cowardly attack.
Everyone sect has its good and bad points, The fact that you mock the Sufis/Bralvis and support the bombing shows you are an intolerant, extreme individual. Alhamdulillah, I'm a Muslim and i dont like it when people like you try to cause disunity amongst the Muslim ummah by lambasting other sects. Leave them be to do what they want, who are you to scream 'SHIRK' 'SHIRK'? You are not the judge, Allah SWT is so keep that mouth of yours sealed as on the day of judgement everything will be clear, There is no need for ignorant laymen like you to spread lies and false propoganda against their own fellow Muslims.

As for your comments on Hazrat Ali Hajveri (May Allah Azzawajal Grant Him Jannah) not stopping the bombing), I just have to laugh at your response, It really takes the biscuit, Your understanding of the bralwi aqeedah is poor. Pure ignorance of the highest order. Who says He (May Allah Azzawajal Grant him Jannah) can cure cancer? Who worships graves? AstaghfirAllah, What you are saying is a pile of rubbish

No one is forcing you to condemn the act, I would have thought and sane human being, with a heart would have at least condemned the attacks straight up instead of beating around the bush. I would expect this sort of response from a terrorist Taliban supporter, and as you are one, Im not surprised by your deceitfulness in creating this thread about a suicide blast then bashing Sufis for what they believe in.

why did they go to the annual ceremony on the grave Perhaps if they had avoided being a part of this Biddah then Allah swt would have spared their lives.?

Another example of your intolerance, How can you to justify the bombing??

Who are you to even question them? Your second comment quoted, is as disgusting as they come. You claim they are taking part in Bidah yet you are supporting an organisation which Kills innocent people, Even their own fellow MUSLIMS by using cheap tactics IE HARAM SUICIDE attacks?

Allah Hu Akbar, You can point fingers all you want but remember, when you throw around false accusations, theres always ten fingers pointing back at you
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IslamicRevival
07-06-2010, 11:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Hey,

I didnt start talking about Barelvis. Troubled Soul did..
Really? Read post number 2 you clown

format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
these stupid Barelvis, I abhor their shirk.
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IslamicRevival
07-06-2010, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
... I want these illiterate Pakistanis to question the clerical leeches who are sucking them into this hell-hole of superstition, quackery, magic, and delusion .
Illiterate Pakistanis? Just because you do not agree with their views they are now illiterate according to you? If there is an intolerant bigot on this forum, Its you
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Maryan0
07-07-2010, 12:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Please everybody stay on topic and address the posts not the posters. While this is speaking about a sect, I personally do not see the issue as being sectarian. This was an act some of us may feel is horrific and others may see it as justified. Let us keep all discussion to facts and not dwell on the differences in practices.
I respectfully disagree I believe this topic is very secretarian and in poor taste since muslim people died. There is no difference in opinion in someone blowing up innocent people. It's wrong and should be condemned as such. The issue of barelvi's whom i've never heard of could have been it's own topic not tied to people dying.
Salam
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Trumble
07-07-2010, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
no, but the saint is not all power-ful. He always helps people. He has no eternal knowledge. So that argument cannot be applied.
'Eternal knowledge' is not required to have motives uncomprehensible to humans, only more knowledge than humans could have. I would have thought that was obviously the case here. Quite apart from which (as you are necessarily implying that God chose not to prevent this massacre because of such eternal knowledge), as you believe God to be omnipotent there is no reason at all He could not 'over-rule' or prevent any action to change events the presumably less-than-omnipotent saint may have taken.
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CosmicPathos
07-07-2010, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Illiterate Pakistanis? Just because you do not agree with their views they are now illiterate according to you? If there is an intolerant bigot on this forum, Its you
You want me to tolerate shirk? Is that what Quran teaches you? To tolerate shirk? Did Muhammad pbuh tolerate Kufr? Or lies? Or deception? As his follower, I also dont tolerate those things. I also dont tolerate homosexuals. And everything that Islam is intolerant to. If that pisses you off then evaluate your allegiance, is it to Allah or your whims and desires?

You seem to be really deluded. I never justified the murder of these people. I mentioned a rational and logical alternative that if they were not doing Bidah, perhaps they wont be at the shrine. This DOES NOT MEAN I AM JUSTIFYING THE ATTACK. It was YOU and LISA who started mentioning "ooh thats not the way to destroy a shrine." Duh, who is talking about supporting the destruction of a Shrine? As I mentioned previously, even killing a PHALLUS WORSHIPPER would be HARAM. DONT CREATE LIES ABOUT ME.

Unlike you, I would not, however, call you a bigot.

I am done with some of the narrow-minded individuals on this thread. Good day.
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CosmicPathos
07-07-2010, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Really? Read post number 2 you clown
are you being entertained from my job as a clown? If yes then I am doing my job well.
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Woodrow
07-07-2010, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lisa0
I respectfully disagree I believe this topic is very secretarian and in poor taste since muslim people died. There is no difference in opinion in someone blowing up innocent people. It's wrong and should be condemned as such. The issue of barelvi's whom i've never heard of could have been it's own topic not tied to people dying.
Salam
Looking back, I have to agree and acknowledge my error in not considering this a sectarian discussion. On that basis:

:threadclo:
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