Yikes, Non Muslims have invaded the Boards.

[Woodrow]

:sl: Akhi wa Ukhti, Peace to our non-Muslim members,

The title is intended to be a humorous introduction to a serious matter.


For an Islamic forum we do have a high non-Muslim membership. To some of our Muslim members this comes as a shock and some even see it as a bad trend. To some of our non-Muslim members it may be a bit scary to be around all of us Muslims.

It is this diversity that makes LI what it is.

while most of the time it leads to interesting and constructive dialog, there are also times it leads to problems. Sometimes the problems appear to be insurmountable.But when we analyze our perceived problems they often only exist in our minds and our personal fears and dislikes.

Some of our Muslim members may see it as katowing to or pacifying non-Muslims. Some non-Muslims may see it as a means to belittle and insult non-Muslims. Neither is the intent of this forum.

One of the most noticed things about this forum is it is a reasonably safe place to discuss our differences and come to an understanding of how to live together in the solid, material world outside of the internet.

I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

[PouringRain]

I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

Ack! Woodrow, I made such a long post replying to your thread and then the forum logged me out before I submitted and I lost it. :p I suppose it was not meant to be. It is too late and I should be asleep already.

In a nutshell I said: 1) I think this forum is beneficial to both muslims and non-muslims because it allows non-muslims to come and learn/ discuss Islam in a non-threatening environment; 2) I think it benefits both muslims and non-muslims that this forum is open to non-muslims (for MANY reasons lost in my previosu post LOL); 3) as a non-muslim, I do not feel as though non-muslims are treated unfairly, nor that they are stifled or unable to speak openly. Non-muslims, along with muslims, are all guests on this forum and subject to the rules, as well as, are all able to openly express their feelings on things. 4) I do not feel as though non-muslims have too much freedom to discuss their religion. It is against the rules to promote other religions. For the most part, from my observations (and I may be wrong) but it seems as though non-muslims share their beliefs a) in defense/ explanation to misconceptions, b) to explain their own personal views, and c) for comparative purposes of differences and similarities.

I think that both non-muslims and muslims all benefit from the forum. It does not benefit Islam at all to have a forum where people are hostile, unwelcoming, not open to sharing or answering questions, etc.

What can be improved? :p Well, I know I am not alone in my dislike of no longer being able to answer things in the advise area... but my intention is not to go into that. There has already been a thread on this. A second thing I always wish is that I could join the sister's section. I realize I am not a muslim, but as a female it is something that I like just to be around other females and read things that pertain to females, apart from and private from males. One of my best experiences with Islam is the times I shared with a muslimah who lived near me, and when we prayed together. But, I do accept that I am not a muslim, and so I am not asking to intrude upon the sister's section here and to go where I would not be welcomed. :) (I don't even know what they talk about in there. LOL I may not even want to be there. ;D )


Okay, this is my post all nutshelled down to near nothing. (Long, I know!!!) Tomorrow when I wake up maybe more people will have posted so that I can just say "Yes, exactly!" and agree to all the things I lost in my previous post. :giggling:

[جوري]

I personally prefer a homogeneous Islamic forum, where Muslims, potential Muslims and only friendly aliens dwell.. I don't know any Muslims in real life (yes sad but true) quite familiar with the non-Muslims, their agenda, their hatred, their desires, their questions,their hallelujah handouts everything about them I live them 24/7 and imbued them in case I miss in live interactions on the news, and I would like a safe haven where I can learn of Muslims across the globe, more about Islam, listen to lectures enjoy Ramadan with members and basically just feed the spiritual side of myself without having a bozo and a gadfly in here every other day with the same inane queries and equally silly pamphlets or worse obscene pornography which they pass out once they decide to rid themselves of the thin veneer that shrouds an equally thinner inner ..

:w:

[Pygoscelis]

Speaking as probably the most diametrically opposed person to muslim views on here, I think its important for people to experience all sides (and to try not to get all excited and defensive). At the end of the day we're all just people from different places and with different biases and ideologies, and screaming at each other on a message board isn't going to change anything - though discussion may illuminate what others out there actually do think.

I would like this to be less of a tribal oriented muslims vs non-muslims fight/contest/whatever and more of a civil discussion, even if we sometimes outright hate each others' views (that's no reason to hate each other). I have noticed this happen with some but certainly not the majority of muslims here. They seem to think they need to defend Islam from attack and take up the sword and attack anybody who questions it. By doing so they accomplish nothing. They only further entrench people into tribal divisions. Instead I would suggest they agree to disagree or explain why the non-muslim is "wrong" in their view or why what the non-muslim views as bad the muslim actually views as good (that happens a lot).

To my fellow non-muslims I suggest we do likewise. Do not participate in fights (sometimes labeled "debates" but they never are) and instead engage in conversation with our muslim board members. And if you get attacked personally, I think we non-muslims need to have the thicker skin and learn to ignore it - as we are the minority here and our views may enrage people. You will see the exact same thing on any other board - be it christian, atheist, democrat, republican, etc.

I also make a point of keeping out of all areas on this message board except for comparitive religion and world events. I think that is important. These sub boards are specifically calling out for a broad perspective. The other message sub boards are not, and we need to respect the muslims wish to have a place of fellowship amongst their bretheren. Just my view.

Myself, I came to this board originally following 9/11 and the resulting islamophobia in the US. It was and still is rampant, visceral, and blindly tribal and I still see this on many other message boards I go to. Believe it or not though I may be seen as the anti-muslim nasty person here, I'm the defender of muslims there. Skavau knows of where I speak and I've seen him doing the same (defending muslims). I came to see how valid the hate speech was. Some of the claims are true but just a clash of opposing values, and other claims these people have made are just outright fabrications.

Though I've disproved most of the myths that concerned me back then I've also learned (through here and many other places I have interacted with muslims online) other things about Islam and discovered it to very much be my opposite, which makes it and its followers even more intreaguing to me.

I don't find muslims dangerous or evil as the people on those boards I mentioned above do, but I do find them to be my polar opposite in many "values". That keeps me around. I love to see the rationale behind positions I do not (and maybe can not) hold.

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[Woodrow]

Just speaking in terms of my own desires and what I see as an ideal forum, would be to see a better understanding of how to debate among all of us that fancy ourselves as debaters.

I would also like to see personal emotions left at the door and for us all to discuss on the basis of facts and not feelings. But, then again this is a religious forum and religion does touch all of us who adhere to a faith, we do have a strong emotional investment in our faith. So I really doubt emotionalism can be eliminated. but perhaps we can get to understand the emotional feelings of all members and take those into consideration when we read each other's posts.

[Muslimeen]

I feel it is a good place to discuss and teach Islam to the world. Especially after 9/11 some people have really gone all out to degrade Islam at all cost, and many ordinary people have accepted the lies told to them about Islam in the media. I don't have a problem with the questions posed by non-muslims as long as they remain dignified and don't resort to vulgarity and insults, I am more than happy to debate with them.
I must however stress that some questions asked may test the Imaan of a muslim, especially if he is not learned or has weak faith, but generally I don't think they are much of a threat to any muslim sound in his beliefs.

[glo]

Catchy title, Woodrow! :D

I don't have much time as I have to get ready for work - but I think this is a great topic and I am sure I will come back to it.

I agree that sometimes emotions get in the way of discussions - and that's how rational conversations can turn into hateful slanging matches.
Some of the best and most informative threads we have had were the ones which only allowed the simple and factual answering of questions, instead of debating.

One thing that bothers me (and it is an issue in many Internet forums, not just this one) is when people resort to supporting their own faith/beliefs/opinions by undermining or discrediting or defaming the faith/beliefs/opinions of others.
In my view that shouldn't be necessary.
All too often I find that people make statements or comments against non-Islamic religions, which - at closer scrutiny - are unfounded or exaggerated or simply don't represent that religion. The fact that people feel the need to do that saddens me. It's as if they think that by dirtying other religions, they will make Islam shine brighter.
There is no need! Islam is a beautiful religion. It should speak for itself. :statisfie

Of course there are non-Muslims who take that same approach against Islam. :hmm: I find that their posts - and rightly so - are usually dealt with quickly by the mods.

Negative posts from Muslims against other religions seem to go unnoticed more often. (I put the 'seem' in italics, because I am aware that I may be biased here, and that this is only my personal perception)

Apart from that, LI has been my cyber home for the last 4 years. Although I take time out, this is where I feel welcome and comfortable. I visit other forums too, but this one is my favourite. That should speak for itself!

Thank you to all the mods for keeping the boat afloat!

[Ramadhan]

Of course there are non-Muslims who take that same approach against Islam. :hmm: I find that their posts - and rightly so - are usually dealt with quickly by the mods.

There are, however, non-muslims who keep trying to undermine Islam by asking a series of (certain) questions or remarks which, at first glance, seem "innocent" enough because the wordings and sentences are usually pretty cunning, but for those muslims members who have been on this board long enough (and have good memory) would quickly detect/know that such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before, and often involving the participation of said non-muslim members.
The mods ALWAYS let these kind of posts fly.

Negative posts from Muslims against other religions seem to go unnoticed more often. (I put the 'seem' in italics, because I am aware that I may be biased here, and that this is only my personal perception)

Just in case you forgot, this is still ISLAMIC board.
In addition to show that Islam is the truth (which most of the threads/sections show), we also want to show non-muslims that their faiths are not the truth (as part of our dakwah), and therefore in certain sections and threads, we make posts which highlight the untruthfullness of their faiths, which you may find a little offensive.
I challenge you to find me a similar christian board where muslims are allowed to be critical of christian faith while refraining from making negative posts against Islam.
However, there maybe some non-denominational religious boards out there which you may find more comfortable than here.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

I really like that many non-Muslims are here in the forum . InshaAllah the forum will be a good place always for both Muslims and non-Muslims to know about each other faith.

Thanks br Woodrow for the thread.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

i agree. sometimes it just like going around in circles :hmm:

[Danah]

Wa Alykom Asalam Uncle Woodrow, nice topic by the way


I think LI is the only forum that I stayed active on for around 3 years because I "somehow" found what I was looking for in the cyberspace. As for Non-muslims here, I live surrounded by Muslims here alhumdulilah but I like to know about other faiths and since I don't know any non-Muslims in the real life I find LI to be a good place to know people from different religious backgrounds and discuss their faiths. I might not be a regular poster in Comparative religions section here but I am a regular reader and I see it as one of the best sections here. So non-Muslims here (the sincere ones) are welcomed.

As for those who spread hate through their posts I think mods are doing their job perfectly with them, so we are fine inshaAllah. May Allah reward all mods here for their effort.

[Woodrow]

Again just my own opinion. But I feel that because of the openness of allowing other religions to express their views it makes the promoting of other faiths difficult if not impossible. I find that any non-Muslim trying to promote their views often get called to task not only by us Muslims, but also by many of our non-Muslim members.

While our non-Muslim population is predominantly Christian, I do not see any particular denomination being dominate. The outspoken Evangelical types often get more criticism from non-Muslims than from Muslims.I think it is good for all of us to see that most of our non-Muslim members speak as individuals and not as representatives of any faith.

[alcurad]

I'd view it as a good thing, forums need new blood to survive. part of what made this forum so exciting for me was the diversity of opinions, actually that was All that drew me :)

[Zafran]

salaam

Same here I think it can be a good thing but there are people out there which do come here for trouble.

peace

[glo]

A second thing I always wish is that I could join the sister's section. I realize I am not a muslim, but as a female it is something that I like just to be around other females and read things that pertain to females, apart from and private from males. One of my best experiences with Islam is the times I shared with a muslimah who lived near me, and when we prayed together. But, I do accept that I am not a muslim, and so I am not asking to intrude upon the sister's section here and to go where I would not be welcomed. :) (I don't even know what they talk about in there. LOL I may not even want to be there. ;D )

We did have a mixed female section, Pouring Rain, which was accessible to Muslim and non-Muslim women.
Unfortunately it was closed with the recent forum changes. You have only just missed it ...
But to be honest, it was never terrible well visited - mostly because there have never been more than one or two female non-Muslim members active in this forum at a time.

There are, however, non-muslims who keep trying to undermine Islam by asking a series of (certain) questions or remarks which, at first glance, seem "innocent" enough because the wordings and sentences are usually pretty cunning, but for those muslims members who have been on this board long enough (and have good memory) would quickly detect/know that such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before, and often involving the participation of said non-muslim members.
The mods ALWAYS let these kind of posts fly.

How could anybody possibly make judgment of the intention of another person?

Again just my own opinion. But I feel that because of the openness of allowing other religions to express their views it makes the promoting of other faiths difficult if not impossible. I find that any non-Muslim trying to promote their views often get called to task not only by us Muslims, but also by many of our non-Muslim members.

While our non-Muslim population is predominantly Christian, I do not see any particular denomination being dominate. The outspoken Evangelical types often get more criticism from non-Muslims than from Muslims.I think it is good for all of us to see that most of our non-Muslim members speak as individuals and not as representatives of any faith.

Those are very good points, Woodrow.

However - and I am sure I have asked for clarification on this in the past - I am not quite sure what exactly the forum rules consider to be 'promoting a religion other than Islam'.
What I mean is, at what point does explaining one's faith and answering questions about it stop being just that and starts being promoting it?



I guess another question to consider is whether it is deemed beneficial for (Muslim) members here to understand and learn more about other faiths, or whether that might actually be a hindrance to the purpose of this forum.

I guess that many people would consider it beneficial to understand other faiths/religions/worldviews better - either for the purpose of being able to live more peacefully and respectfully with those of other faiths; or for the purpose of being able to give better Da'wah to people of other faiths/religions/worldviews.


As Pouring Rain pointed out, sometimes non-Muslims feel it necessary to respond to false assertions which are made against their own group.
For example, sweeping and unreasonable statements such as 'Christians are evil and lie' or 'Atheists are immoral' just aren't helpful, and are most likely to cause a negative response.


I have to say that I have learned so much about Islam on this forum! When I speak to others in the 'real world' I realise just how much more knowledge I have gained.
It's a looong, looong time since I referred to Muhammad as 'the guy who went into a cave and came out with a new religion' ... :hiding::embarrass:phew

I mention that incident, because I know now that I was speaking with complete ignorance!
Thankfully, at the time I was neither shouted down nor ridiculed. Instead somebody (I forget who. Sorry - poor memory!) explained to me patiently and graciously what Islam really teaches.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have gained my knowledge of Islam from those who had the patience and kindness to explain it to me - even if I should ask the same question in different contexts or at different times; rather than from those who have been angry, suspicious and dismissive about my inquiries.

Thank you all who make this forum such a peaceful and helpful environment! :statisfie

[marwen]

Funny Title ! and a good thread. Emm I have no much to add other than what was said by all the posters here :smile:. I have just few remarks :

1) Islam is a universal religion, our message need to reach all the non-muslims in the world. We need all the non-muslims to interact with us and even if they chose to not enter in islam, they will accept us as humans.

2) No need to hate each other. What is the reason for hate ? Yes we all (muslims and non-muslims) hate insults, aggression and wars, but Why should we hate someone who didn't offend us ? No need to hate others just for what they are :hmm:.

3) In discussion, when we have different opinions, that doesn't mean we are enemies :ermm:, people can have different ideas and different backgrounds, they are not clones. But we should keep in mind that we are all humans, all brothers.

4) We should keep the love and respect spirit for all the members here. Even for those who seem to be annoying and offensive for you. Love is the most powerful emotion that can change your entourage.

[glo]

^
That's wonderfully said, marwen!

[Asiyah3]

:wa:

Even though I very much like the diversity of the forum, sometimes I feel the forum is quite overly surrounded by non-Muslims. Especially in certain threads while it should rather be Islamic and educational for us Muslims the views of non-Muslims or the debates there have a strong presence. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes unpleasant.

However, this is really tiny and rare. Most of the time the discussion is enjoyable, nice and comfortable. Despite all differences and disagreements the majority are helpful and supporting with each other.

It's truly great to have all people here al-hamdulillah.

[cat eyes]

if non muslims could not join islamic forums how would they know and learn about islam ? if we feel uncomfortable well tough luck.

its our duty of each and every one of us to give the correct message correctly. no matter how much they argue with us, we should just bite our tongues and be careful how we come across

remember if any of us come across as arrogant, it will discourage other non muslims from registering on the forum..

ahkee woodrow i think that the mods should be moderating threads more often, i feel that when a fight breaks out, mods are very slow to close a thread or delete posts this is just what ive noticed.

it would be a perfect forum if every one just got along :D

[Insaanah]

:wa: Uncle Woodrow,

I feel that the basis, the foundation, of a good discussion with non-Muslims, is firstly for non-Muslims to be honest about their feelings about Islam (which the majority are), what they disagree with and why. Sure, what they say may cross limits (and may occasionally need to be dealt with), but I personally would appreciate a person more who said "I don't like xyz in Islam because..." rather than someone who isn't so clear with their words.

Also, if a non-Muslim says, "We believe in xyz with regards to God," if a Muslim repeats the self same words back to the non-Muslim (that "your religion's belief with regards to God is xyz, ours is pqr"), suddenly that statement becomes wrong or offensive. It may be that some non-Muslims here are uncomfortable about their own faith...the facts have to be either true or not, that is either what you believe, or you don't believe. The goalposts can't keep changing.

Personally I see nothing wrong if Muslims try to point out the fallacy of others beliefs using reasoning and logic. It's all very well saying, "We believe this" but we must also explain why we believe the other is wrong. Islam is not about saying, "I'm ok in my beliefs, you're ok in your beliefs, we're all happy, flower power, yo!". This is an Islamic forum. And we must explain our faith as well as pointing out why we believe the other is wrong.

Perhaps there may be occasions when it hurts the non-Muslims feelings, but what we believe is what we believe. Most of us here are direct and don't beat about the bush, yes we should be polite and use logic and wisdom when reasoning, but ultimately there will be times when inevitably or unknowingly feelings get hurt.

I don't post much in comparative religion because I don't get the time to construct a proper post/reply and then follow up on any replies, however I was ignorant of the Christian beliefs about God and have learnt about them on the forum from reading posts in this section.

As to areas of improvement, I feel that the moderation of the Discover Islam section has really jumped in leaps and bounds the past few days. Jazaakallah khayr for that. I would like to see the same thing apply to that section as does to Advice and Support. Although the Discover Islam section is moderated, in the past non-Muslims were answering queries by people interested in Islam, indirectly giving misleading information about Islam to OPs. In some instances others were debating and disagreeing with the correct answers given by Muslims. And some posts simply have no relevance to the matter at hand. This section should be for Muslims only to reply to, so that no wrong information gets given to potential Muslims, and that the thread doesn't deviate from its purpose. Even the replies from Muslims should still be strictly moderated, to make sure they are correct. As far as da'wah goes, and people discovering about Islam, it is perhaps THE single most important area of the forum, and that is why I feel the same (if not more) should apply as does to Advice and Support.

If I think of anything more, I'll add it.

[glo]

Salaam/Peace

I don't visit comperative threads anymore , it's not that I don't like to talk to non-Muslims ; it's just because I don't have patience anymore to talk about differences of faiths .

It's a shame really, that we get to such a point where we feel like that.

The question is, why do we go round and round in circles?
Why not just learn what each other believe and leave it at that? We don't have to agree with each other - but that doesn't mean we have to endlessly argue with each other either ...

Perhaps we need to remind ourselves that for over a thousand years Muslims, Jews and Christians have had the same debates and disagreements. In all that time, no one religion has 'won' over the others. Each has continued to have followers who believed it to be the truth.
Why then do we think that we can here and now in this forum suddenly convince and convert each other?

I really like that many non-Muslims are here in the forum . InshaAllah the forum will be a good place always for both Muslims and non-Muslims to know about each other faith.

Thanks br Woodrow for the thread.

That's kind of you to say. I agree. :)

[titus]

One way to improve the forums would be to moderate the insulting of other members that, unfortunately, happens way too often.

For the Muslims that do not want to interact with non-Muslims on this forum there should be some forums in which non-Muslims are not allowed to post. For instance I never go beyond the General forums and leave the rest to the Muslim members.

As for the interaction I enjoy it, but most especially when I am able to have a rational discussion with a Muslim member that does not end with insults being hurled at me. Unfortunately that is often not the case.

Woodrow, You and I have had more than one discussion on different topics, and while we don't always agree we are always civil and I know we have both been able to make each other see things from a different perspective. That is what I come here for, those small moments of enlightenment into the way another person sees things. That is why I return occasionally to visit this forum.

[Woodrow]

I can see the suggestion that we need more moderation especially in some sections. Moderation among a diverse group is extremely difficult. I feel we have the best mods possible for such a difficult task. In my humble opinion it is not a question of needing more moderation it is a question of us all needing to understand how and what should be moderated.

This is an area in which the members play a vital role. Use the report button if you find a post offensive. We may not see things from the same perspective as you, but we are capable of learning and we do want to treat all members fairly and not deliberatly allow any member to be mistreated, without compromising our beliefs.

I think the best way to do this is to keep a tighter hold on personal attacks. This may be an area in which we seem to be lax. Because of our differences what is seen as benign to one person, may be insulting to another.I believe this is an area of moderation we can get a better hold on, but we can not do so if we are not aware of what a person sees as insulting. Here the report button can be a help. Us mods are human and we really are capable of learning. Many of you guys are excellent teachers.

A difficulty I see our Christian members have: seems to be in how they can explain and correct erroneous statements about their faith without it looking like an attempt to spread their belief. I do sympathize with this difficulty and to be honest I do see many errors said about our Christian members. I think the problem is us non-Christians often have knowledge of one or 2 denominations and assume what we see applies to all who call themselves Christian.

Overall I think the greatest improvement would be if all of us learn to resist the tempation of personal comments directed towards the persona of those we get angry at.

We are people, we are not going to like every member here. we will all see somebody we find irritating. The key is for us to learn to attack the statements and not the person making the statements. a very difficult task sometimes and one that requires much patience and an understanding of fair fighting. It is an area we all fail in on occasion.

[Grace Seeker]

:I am hoping this thread can/will become a dialog in which we can each express our expectations of what we think the forum should be. We want to know if there are areas in need of improvement? Do our Muslim members feel the non-Muslim members have too much freedom to discuss their religion ? Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly? Are we actually benefiting anybody and if so who is being benefited?

Do I, as a non-Muslim member feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

There are two different questions contained therein:
1) No, I don't feel unfairly treated.

I know the rules of the forum, they clearly deliniate boundaries that either I can accept or go elsewhere. That is fair on a private forum. I suspect I would do something similar if I were to have a forum of my own.


2) Yes, I do on occassion feel stifled in the ability to speak openly.

What to me are questions and doubts I have with regard to Islam come across to others as accusations. Criticism of Mohammad is not accepted, and if referring to a blatant attack on his person (or any person) I can understand this. But, some here see the simple questioning of the veracity of his prophethood or the revelatory nature of the Qu'ran as being against the rules. If this is so, then honest questioning is in this regard limited.

I have never once in writing a post, set out with the intent to proselytize anyone. But the very essence of my faith is to invite others to come to a knowledge of God as made known to us in and through the work and ministry of Jesus. So, to never include that aspect of my faith in answering questions about it, is to actually give a distorted picture of it. Yet, some of my posts have been deleted in the past simply because in answering questions about my faith, I was seen to be promoting my faith. Now, I hasten to add, that those mods who deleted those posts I don't for one moment think were being either disrespectful to me or my fath, they were simply applying the forum's rules as they understood them. But that understanding does stifle and limit what I can say (and therefore what people can learn about my faith) to a certain degree.

However, the above circumstances of the actual forum rules stifling discussion are rather rare. I notice they occur mostly with new and younger mods who I suspect are feeling empowered by their new position of authority and have yet to develop the patience and wisdom for a more delicate hand in its use. Nor are these instances what I find to be truly stifling. Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiators contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000+ years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is suddenly just dying to say it can't be done, because......), of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other?

I think we have to learn to understand each other more. I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person. I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam. We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only NOT representative of our respective faiths, but that those who plan such things should be aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name. But those sorts of discussions do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

[glo]

Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike. What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiator contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000 years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is just dying to say can't be done, because......) of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other? I think we have to learn to understand each other more.

Well said. I couldn't agree more.

I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person.
I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam.
We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only not representative of our respective faiths, but aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name.
But those sorts of discussion do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

Amen to those comments too.

It's good to see you, Grace Seeker. I hope things are settling down at home.

[Woodrow]

Do I, as a non-Muslim member feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

There are two different questions contained therein:
1) No, I don't feel unfairly treated.

I know the rules of the forum, they clearly deliniate boundaries that either I can accept or go elsewhere. That is fair on a private forum. I suspect I would do something similar if I were to have a forum of my own.


2) Yes, I do on occassion feel stifled in the ability to speak openly.

What to me are questions and doubts I have with regard to Islam come across to others as accusations. Criticism of Mohammad is not accepted, and if referring to a blatant attack on his person (or any person) I can understand this. But, some here see the simple questioning of the veracity of his prophethood or the revelatory nature of the Qu'ran as being against the rules. If this is so, then honest questioning is in this regard limited.

I have never once in writing a post, set out with the intent to proselytize anyone. But the very essence of my faith is to invite others to come to a knowledge of God as made known to us in and through the work and ministry of Jesus. So, to never include that aspect of my faith in answering questions about it, is to actually give a distorted picture of it. Yet, some of my posts have been deleted in the past simply because in answering questions about my faith, I was seen to be promoting my faith. Now, I hasten to add, that those mods who deleted those posts I don't for one moment think were being either disrespectful to me or my fath, they were simply applying the forum's rules as they understood them. But that understanding does stifle and limit what I can say (and therefore what people can learn about my faith) to a certain degree.

However, the above circumstances of the actual forum rules stifling discussion are rather rare. I notice they occur mostly with new and younger mods who I suspect are feeling empowered by their new position of authority and have yet to develop the patience and wisdom for a more delicate hand in its use. Nor are these instances what I find to be truly stifling. Rather, what I find stifling is an attitude that occurs among only a small minority of posters, yet has a dramatic effect on the overall atmosphere of the board. This attitude is non-discrminatory and prevelant among Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

What I find most stifling are those who seem insistent on turning any and every discussion into an "I'm right, you're wrong" contest as if posters were gladiators contesting in the arena. A good example can be found in a thread I was once very much interested in: "Quran vs Bible". I thought that this was going to be a thread where one could make note of similarities and difference between the two -- and it did start that way -- but, it has deteriorated into just another thread among many where one person is trying to prove the Qur'an is true and the Bible false and another trying to do the opposite. Why do we have to "prove" anything? Who really thinks that after 1000+ years of such point and counter-point discussion that we on these forums are going to come up with anything new? For me, the goal is not to prove Islam false. Even if I could do so (which I know someone is suddenly just dying to say it can't be done, because......), of what value would that be if we continued to talk past each other?

I think we have to learn to understand each other more. I need to hear the pain of the Muslim woman who is surrounded by non-Muslim men who look upon her as an object rather than a person. I need you to hear the depth of love for submitting to God's will in my life that is every bit as much a part of my Christian faith as it is in Islam. We need to help each other find a way to relegate those who see the death of 74 people in Uganda or children asleep in their homes in Iraq or Afghanistan as either justifiable or able to be written off as "collateral damage" as not only NOT representative of our respective faiths, but that those who plan such things should be aggressively reputiated and challenged to amend their ways or be confronted by those they erroneously pretend to fight on behalf of for the damage they do to our respective faiths through mis-use of our faith's name. But those sorts of discussions do not seem possible in the present environment as I experience it on these boards.

Peace Gene and Thank you for the input.

Although I quoted your post I am not going to attempt to address it point by point but rather just express some thoughts this has evoked.

I can see a need for compromise among all members, not compromise in the sense of acceptance of what we believe to be wrong, but compromise in the sense of agreeing to disagree in a peaceful manner.

One problem I see us Muslims have is when we ask a person of another faith what their beliefs are we tend to view it as them promoting their beliefs when they honestly state what they believe. A difficult area to work around. Either we learn not to ask such questions or we learn to be more specific in how we ask or we learn to see the answer as an answer and not as promoting a faith. Or perhaps best we all learn the forum rules and even those of us entrusted to enforce them, understand the same rules apply to everybody.The existing rules seem to be adequate. If anything needs to be done is for us mods to come to a better understanding of the rules and be certain we apply them fairly.

Yes, we do stifle a large amount of non-Islamic discussion. Not because we are anti anybody but simply because our honest goal is to present an honest understanding of Islam as lived by Muslims.

I believe that non-Muslims join this for for at least as many different reasons as there are members. Each member is an individual and the presence of several people from the same faith does not always mean it is a team effort for an agenda. Only each person knows why he/she is here. It can be simple curiosity, it can be for the pupose of seeking information to convert, it can be for wanting to better understand family, friends or neighbors who are Muslim. It can be any one of ofr even all of countless reasons. But, the simple fact is we all need to see each other as members and not base our comments upon what we think another person believes.

Life can be reasonably enjoyable and even productive if each and everyone of us learns we need to disagree peacefully, address comments with factas and give an explanation or source for our statements. And all agree to follow the forum rules.

Overall I feel that virtually every member here is here for sincere and honest reasons and in spite of our differences there is a fairly large amount of peaceful behavior and even some interesting sincere debates.

So perhaps overall the key to success is simple, we all follow the rules, disagree in peace and avoid personal agendas.

[glo]

I believe that non-Muslims join this for for at least as many different reasons as there are members. Each member is an individual and the presence of several people from the same faith does not always mean it is a team effort for an agenda. Only each person knows why he/she is here. It can be simple curiosity, it can be for the pupose of seeking information to convert, it can be for wanting to better understand family, friends or neighbors who are Muslim. It can be any one of ofr even all of countless reasons. But, the simple fact is we all need to see each other as members and not base our comments upon what we think another person believes.

I think it's important to remember that.
For followers of those religions which instruct us to 'share our faith' and 'bring others to faith', it can be difficult to deal with friends and loved ones who (for whatever reason) do not accept our faith as their own.

It's something I observe in Christians elsewhere and in some Muslims here in the forum.

Muslims here are generally happy to explain about Islam and to answer questions ... and often there is an apparent (and understandable) desire to see non-Muslims accept Islam. When that doesn't happen people perhaps become frustrated or impatient.

Like you say, non-Muslims are here for many different reasons.
Perhaps it helps to remember that more often - and to trust that whether we believe it or not, we are all in God's hands, and he guides us we ways we cannot begin to understand!
Who knows what he has planned for each of us, if only we remain open to his loving guidance. :statisfie

Therefore I think Muslims should not feel under pressure to 'have to say the right thing to convert non-Muslim members to Islam', and to remain calm and joyful in the knowledge that God is in charge!
Woodrow, you out of all people know how long it can take to start hearing God's calling again. Perhaps that's one reason why you are more at peace with the presence of many non-Muslims here. :)

So perhaps overall the key to success is simple, we all follow the rules, disagree in peace and avoid personal agendas.

I agree with you. :)

I also strongly agree with Grace Seeker's statement that we should stand together against atrocities in the world, rather than hide behind suspect excuses world leaders offer us for them.
Our faiths have so much in common!
Humanity alone has so much in common!!

I would like to see more threads where Muslim and non-Muslim members join forces for the common good of humanity, for human rights, against injustice and starvation, for harmony and peace ... rather than spend so much energy on arguing against each other!

[Ramadhan]

Like you say, non-Muslims are here for many different reasons.

It is true that non-muslims are here for many different reasons.
And when some non-muslims have personal agendas, it becomes apparent very quickly, and the mods usually threw those out pretty quickly.

Therefore I think Muslims should not feel under pressure to 'have to say the right thing to convert non-Muslim members to Islam', and to remain calm and joyful in the knowledge that God is in charge!

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?
Make no mistake though, that as muslims, we are obligated to convey the truth that is Islam.

[glo]

It is true that non-muslims are here for many different reasons.
And when some non-muslims have personal agendas, it becomes apparent very quickly, and the mods usually threw those out pretty quickly.

Luckily the moderators are on the ball.
On the whole, however, I would agree with Woodrow's statement:

Overall I feel that virtually every member here is here for sincere and honest reasons and in spite of our differences there is a fairly large amount of peaceful behavior and even some interesting sincere debates.

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?
Make no mistake though, that as muslims, we are obligated to convey the truth that is Islam.

Perhaps 'under pressure' is not the best term to choose.
What I mean is a noticeable and admirable desire in some Muslims here to see non-Muslim members to come to Islam.
I have heard many Muslim members here express that desire for me and other non-Muslims quite openly.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean to criticise it. Like I said, I see the same tendencies in many Christians outside this forum too. It is the nature of our faiths which gives us that desire to see others accept what we are convinced to be the truth. We do it out of love and care for non-believers - so the intention is entirely positive! :)

Indeed, your terminology of 'conveying the truth of ones faith' probably explains the concept quite well.

It does become a problem, however, when people go beyond the sharing of their faith and feel they need to convert others to their faith. That's what I mean by people 'feeling under pressure' to convert others.
I believe only God can touch our hearts and move us to accept the truth - people can only ever offer information and advice.
If people put upon themselves the burden to convert others, they can end up disappointed and frustrated when 'their efforts fail' - and possibly angry with the person who 'has refused' to see the truth.

Of course this is only my personal perception of things. Whether people truly feel like that or not, I couldn't possibly say. I don't know the intentions of others in this forum. I am only sharing my thoughts on this topic - people can decide for themselves whether they are relevant to them or not.

[Woodrow]

Luckily the moderators are on the ball.
On the whole, however, I would agree with Woodrow's statement:








Perhaps 'under pressure' is not the best term to choose.
What I mean is a noticeable and admirable desire in some Muslims here to see non-Muslim members to come to Islam.
I have heard many Muslim members here express that desire for me and other non-Muslims quite openly.
There is nothing wrong with that, and I don't mean to criticise it. Like I said, I see the same tendencies in many Christians outside this forum too. It is the nature of our faiths which gives us that desire to see others accept what we are convinced to be the truth. We do it out of love and care for non-believers - so the intention is entirely positive! :)

Indeed, your terminology of 'conveying the truth of ones faith' probably explains the concept quite well.

It does become a problem, however, when people go beyond the sharing of their faith and feel they need to convert others to their faith. That's what I mean by people 'feeling under pressure' to convert others.
I believe only God can touch our hearts and move us to accept the truth - people can only ever offer information and advice.
If people put upon themselves the burden to convert others, they can end up disappointed and frustrated when 'their efforts fail' - and possibly angry with the person who 'has refused' to see the truth.

Of course this is only my personal perception of things. Whether people truly feel like that or not, I couldn't possibly say. I don't know the intentions of others in this forum. I am only sharing my thoughts on this topic - people can decide for themselves whether they are relevant to them or not.

Peace Glo,

Quite a bit there to think over. like I did with Grace Seeker's post, I am not going to attempt to address it point by point but rather post the thoughts it has given me. In no specific order.

It is true that most if not all of us Muslims do have a strong need and desire to see all people accept Islam. This is not from arrogance of from any hidden political motivation. In simplicity we sincerely believe it is our obligation and one we do out of love for Allaah(swt) and love of our fellow humans.

There is some difficulty in understanding that people who believe different than us, may have the very same feelings about their faith. The expression of these feelings may sometimes be seen as a deliberate attempt to persuade Muslims to leave Islam.

To keep this from becoming a problem or an issue, perhaps we all need to be certain that we keep discussions about faiths other than Islam in the comparative religion section. Fortunately most members already do that. We all also need to be aware that religious discussions are often very emotional in nature and are probably the most difficult area to debate. This is the area most in need for us to be mindful that we focus on the topic and not on the person posting.

[Grace Seeker]

So far I don't see any muslim here who "feels under pressure to have to say the right thing to convert non-muslims to Islam".
Do you?

Whether people feel "under pressure" or not is hard for me to say. But I do observe that some are always, as you say, quick to "convey the truth that is Islam." Now if, as Woodrow said, we can agree to disagree. Or if, as the Quran says, there is no compulsion in religion. I would assert that such an attempt is not in fact always necessary nor even the wisest action even when one's goal it is to win converts for Islam. If I may be so bold, allow me to use a couple of your own recent comments to illustrate how two similar statements can come across completely differently to a non-Muslim --at least to this non-Muslim:

Just in case you forgot, this is still ISLAMIC board.
In addition to show that Islam is the truth (which most of the threads/sections show), we also want to show non-muslims that their faiths are not the truth (as part of our dakwah), and therefore in certain sections and threads, we make posts which highlight the untruthfullness of their faiths, which you may find a little offensive.

This statement declares who you are, how you understand yourself, your faith, and how in light of that understanding you understand others who are outside of it. Personally I find nothing offensive in such a declaration. If I am going to accept you as a person, I have to accept all of who you are, and that includes not just your faith with in God, but also your beliefs with regard to other people's faith. I might disagree with your statement as to what is and what is not truth. Still, I need to acknowledge that it is your truth and you understand it to not just be yours but THE truth. But that doesn't mean that I have to take offense at it, for while your words represent you understanding of that truth, I am under no compulsion to accept it as so. Again, in Woodrow's wise words, "we can agree to disagree." In the end, Allah, not you and not me, knows best.

Now compare that to another comment you made in the very same post.

such issues have been addressed conclusively in satisfying manner many times before

This comment again represents a declaration on your part of a particular view. But it goes beyond that. Because it now no longer addresses what you believe, but what you want me to believe as well. In this statement, you seeminlgy assert that your conclusion regarding my belief is not just your own opinion, but something which I have to accept as concluded, and done so in a satisfying manner. Well, what if I am unsatisfied?

It is entirely possible that what one person finds to be a satisfactory conclusion or satisfactory "proof" on some subject, is not held to be equally satisfactory, or even conclusive, to others. To say that from your point of view something has reached a satisfactory conclusion when it may not have done so from my point of view seem to me to be the exact opposite of agreeing to disagree. Rather, whether intended this way or not, it comes across as a subtle form of compulsion -- "it's my way or the highway", words no one is so crass as to literally express, but a feeling which is nonetheless projected by such assertions.

Now, naidamar, I don't use your post as a way of asserting that you are a major offender in this area. And I confess it is not just Muslim who present themselves this way. There has been more than one representative of my own faith that has offended me in this respect. Rather, I'm hoping to illustrate that even within a benigh post such as yours, there can be ideas projected that come across as offensive. Something you yourself recognized and addressed in the post. But the thing that we may be unaware of is that what you thought might be offensive was not, and what I'm sure you never thought would be actually contained elements that could be received that way. I tend to agree with others here who have said we need to be a little more tolerant of one another. And so I am not truly offended. But, what of those that make such posts declaring not only that they believe they have the truth, but that they have "proven" it, in the midst of what we euphamistically call "a debate"? Tolerance is a two-way street. Tolerance is not just not taking offence at another person's comment, it is recognizing that potential for offence in what we say and finding another way to say it.

[Woodrow]

Tolerance is a two-way street. Tolerance is not just not taking offence at another person's comment, it is recognizing that potential for offence in what we say and finding another way to say it.

I like that. Very true.

Tolerance is often misunderstood. Too often people think tolerance is a sign of weakness and to be tolerant means adopting and accepting what we oppose. To be tolerant requires considerable strength and a very strong hold on our own convictions. It is the recognition that other people do have views we may not agree with, but we acknowledge each others right to have their own right and if we challange those beliefs we agree to do so without, insult, malice or ridicule and do so with demonstratable facts or at least give a basis for our opinion. But, what we do not do or rather should not do is resort to personal attacks of the person. Tolerance is the ability to disagree in peace.

[جوري]

I doubt very much that any Muslim in here is after giving da3wa to the kaffirs on board.. If God saw good in some he'd have moved their heart toward light, but they remain in their ignorance and hostility for reasons too numerous to count here, which brings me to my original point which is that I'd rather have a homogeneous Islamic board or one where potential converts who have done some studying on their own come to clarify certain concepts.. What good is there at all in keeping someone like Hugo on board for instance you'll answer his queries a thousand different times and then he comes anew making a thread answering the same questions.. He not only didn't bother with your replies, but is adamant at perpetuating his willful ignorance in spite of massive evidence to the contrary by biblical scholars , metzger or Eherman etc.
yet doesn't seem in the least to exempt his person from going to a form on apostates to quote us the 'truth about Islam' he is unable to distinguish a scholar from a street rat and unable to subject his own beliefs and religion to some of what he expects from others..

to be honest with you I am completely appalled that someone would bring the banner of the crusades with their pagan and downright hateful pursuits to one of the few places on the web where his ilk shouldn't be allowed.. I mean isn't the web filled with that exact ignorance, that exact stupidity and that exact misinformation? If it were a simple case of clarifying misconceptions I would be welcoming it, but we all know that is not the case given his repeated history of posing questions already answered, and he isn't actually alone in that regard.. I suppose some believe that if they sugar coat their agenda enough, no one will see right through it!

A Muslim is clement that is true.. but also wise!

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Lily, this very post is one that I believe produces the unwelcoming atmosphere I spoke of earlier. Just take a look at your opening sentence:

I doubt very much that any Muslim in here is after giving da3wa to the kaffirs on board.

Who are you referring to as "kaffir" and what do you mean by it? Those of us who are non-Muslims are going to be unfamiliar with the the term, at least initially. And we will pick up on it's meaning by the tone of your post. In your usage a kaffir appears to be someone whom you've identified as remaining in "ignorance and hostility". But when I go to an Islamic website that provides a glossary of Islamic terms, they present a different meaning to the term, certainly a different consonnance:

from Islamic-Dictionary.com

Kafir
Meaning:Generally the word kafir means 'unbeliever' and it is not meant as a derogatory label (unless it is used against Muslims by another Muslim). Of course, there are different levels of Kufur (disbelief) so although a person may be correctly identified as a kafir, that person is not kafir in the strongest sense of the word. Absolute kufur is the denial of God. Here are some examples of kufur:

(1) A person is known as a Kafir if they are disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, and in His final Messenger, Muhammad (SAW). (E.g. An apostate from Islam)
(2) A 'Muslim' who disbelieves in a necessary tenant of Islam like the 5 pillars or some other things is known as a disbeliever.
(3) An originally non-Muslim person who denies the religion of Islam while knowing in his heart that it is true.
(4) A disbeliever in Islam only because they originally follow another (monotheistic) faith.
(5) A person who follows another (monotheistic) faith and knows nothing about Islam.
(6) A person who believes in many gods (polytheist).
(7) An agnostic who is a monotheist is a lesser kafir than a polytheist.
(8) An Atheist - ultimate kufur.

Generally a Christian or Jew is not identified as a kafir but they are known respectfully as Ahlul kitab - People of the Book(s), and Islam considers their religions valid but once they find Islam they are expected to follow the updated covenant sent by God.
True Form:كافر

Grammar:word;
Explanation:وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ اسْجُدُواْ لآدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. [Quran 2.34]

Notice the use of the word 'kafireen' in the Arabic. This is one of the reasons why one must learn Arabic to understand the full meaning of the Quran, the words of Allah. Kafir is derived from the word meaning 'to cover' and Kafir also means 'disbeliever in God'. But in this case, Iblees (Satan) is fully aware of Gods' existence and power yet he is still described as a kafir! This goes to show that a person can be a kafir even if he believes in a God. In other words, just because someone believes there is a God, that someone can still be a kafir and be (technically) condemned to hell. Therefore, a kafir can be more correctly defined as someone who 'rejects submission to God' even though he is fully aware of His existence, as well as meaning a person who is a true Atheist - one who 'rejects the existence of God'.

Now according to this a kaffir is simply an unbeliever. It is not a derogatory term. Yet, it is hard to imagine that one would not understand being called a person remaining in "ignorance and hostility" as non-derogatory. And, if the quoted website is to be believed as accurate, the use of the term kaffir is not the general way to address Christians: "Christian or Jew is not identified as a kafir but they are known respectfully as Ahlul kitab - People of the Book(s), and Islam considers their religions valid", yet your post takes one Christian, Hugo, personally to task in a post unrespectful way.

In other words, the words you use, and the derisive way in which you use them, are NOT in accord with what one learns about Islam elsewhere. And such invectives (whether originating from you toward Hugo or some other Christians, or them toward you or some other Muslim) is what I believe contributes to the level of antipathy that exists in some portions of this board. It is not enough that name calling and personal attacks are against the forum's rules, the visceral nature of communication between individual forumites (e.g., see the immediate above communication directed toward Titus) needs to become more respectful overall.

[جوري]

Who are you referring to as "kaffir" and what do you mean by it? .

I don't believe that my post needs any clarifications, it is very straightforward!

all the best

[glo]

To keep this from becoming a problem or an issue, perhaps we all need to be certain that we keep discussions about faiths other than Islam in the comparative religion section. Fortunately most members already do that. We all also need to be aware that religious discussions are often very emotional in nature and are probably the most difficult area to debate. This is the area most in need for us to be mindful that we focus on the topic and not on the person posting.

That's a good point, Woodrow.

I am in the habit of replying to posts as they appear new on the top of the main forum page. That means that I don't always make myself aware of the forum section the post has been posted in.
I should make sure I know which section I am in, as this might affect what I write in my reply.

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/Peace
but u did it in a very negative way. If u think someone is rude and if u behave with him/her rudely , then you are guilty of the same mistake.

Muslim Woman's point is well taken.

Grace Seeker,

τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ (aka Gossamer Sky) is one of those examples of hostile Muslims that have been referred to on this thread. To her, unfortunately, there is no such thing as civil disagreement, and to her everyone is either a good guy (Muslim) or bad guy (non-Muslims, especially Jews). Her method of debate is basically to insult whoever disagrees with her and sadly nothing is going to change that.

I've known Lily (aka Skye) on these forums for better than 4 years. I said what I have said with reference to specific comments which I think could have been better stated. I will not stoop to saying that she simply "insults[s] whoever disagrees with her". It may appear that way at times, but I have also seen other facets of her personality expressed. Over the years she and I have disagreed many times, but if you look above, she did not insult me. So, your statement with regard to her character is just as broad sweeping (and, in my opinion, therefore unhelpful) as that which she stands (with some reason) accused of.

As she said, she made her point, it was rather straight forward. It does not need further comment, for it stands for all to see and read (and I suppose, judge) for themselves.

I would ask for more tolerance from her -- comments like "is it common for non-Muslims to be dense and in need of a broken down distillate" are (IMO) rude and incidiary. But I would also ask for tolerance of her -- most of those who have animous relationships with her have made as many comments directed at her as they have received from her. I don't think she is the bad guy here. Rather, it is intolerance that we have to fight, not one another.

Budda, Jesus, Mohammad (going alphabetical order here) and simple common sense teach us that we should treat others they way we would like to be treated ourselves. As a Christian, I believe that I apply that teaching by unilaterally practicing it in my own life; whether others follow suit is irrelevant to my actions. And the consequence thereof are for God, not me, to dispense.

If I were to post the personal exchanges that Lily and I have had over the years, you might be surprised to learn, but I am happy to tell you, that some of the most gracious PM comments I have received have been from the very one of whom you have claimed: "If you want an example of her insulting someone simply find any thread in which she responds to a non-Muslim in any way." I have seen that, but I have also seen:

"It was my pleasure to correspond with you. I just woke up a bit grouchy :-\ and I shouldn't let that cloud or affect my judgment and the way I deal with others."
and
"G-D bless you and guide you unto the path of the righteous. drop in whenever, I enjoy hearing from you very much..."

Such comments are anything but insulting.

There is more to most of us than what we see in each other's posts. God created all of us good -- that we don't always show that side of ourselves is reason to work on improvement. But it is there in each and everyone of us. And I am happy to testify to having seen it, and seen it repeatedly, in Lily. My critique of her above posts is not a diminuation of her, but of the tone with which she wrote. We all do that from time to time, myself included, and as such I suspect it is an area in which we could all, not just one or two highlighed individuals, stand to do some growing.

[Woodrow]

Communication from one human to another is often a very difficult task. It is further complicated when there is cultural differences, more complex if their is a gender difference.

Perhaps the Aboriginal people of Tierra d'el Fuego had the right idea.

adult women and adult males spoke totally different languages and neither was permitted to learn the language of the other. Might have made for a dull life, but arguments were very rare.

A part of tolerance is for each of us to accept that other people will use different methods of emphasis.

[Woodrow]

For future reference if any member finds any post offensive. Use the report button and DO NOT RESPOND to the post. Let the mods earn their keep and make them be the one who determines if a post is offensive. Once replies are made, we have little options except to delete the offending and all following posts, close the thread, delete the thread or just let things be and hope peace will prevail.

[جوري]

For future reference if any member finds any post offensive. Use the report button and DO NOT RESPOND to the post. Let the mods earn their keep and make them be the one who determines if a post is offensive. Once replies are made, we have little options except to delete the offending and all following posts, close the thread, delete the thread or just let things be and hope peace will prevail.

what good would that do to assert the presence of the ignorant who desire to run amok like street rats, vulgar and perpetuating false rumors while extricating themselves from wrong doing without having to pay a visit to a psychiatrist to purge their souls of their hatred for some payments? The 'dignified' approach is no style for the kuffar.. they prefer their all too frequent carpet bombing, and pretty soon would like a board of this caliber to preserve their linear existence!


there is no point extending ourselves to folks who simply don't deserve any form of hospitality.. if they don't like it here, they don't have to be members here!


:w:

[buddy1]

Ahhh woodrow another refreshing thread from you! As you all may or may not know, im a non muslim, my children however are. I have never once felt uncomfortable in this forum! I love it hear, ok so i go for a couple of months without visiting but thats down to my 100mph life nothing you lot have said or done! I love you guys! Haha x

[Woodrow]

what good would that do to assert the presence of the ignorant who desire to run amok like street rats, vulgar and perpetuating false rumors while extricating themselves from wrong doing without having to pay a visit to a psychiatrist to purge their souls of their hatred for some payments? The 'dignified' approach is no style for the kuffar.. they prefer their all too frequent carpet bombing, and pretty soon would like a board of this caliber to preserve their linear existence!


there is no point extending ourselves to folks who simply don't deserve any form of hospitality.. if they don't like it here, they don't have to be members here!


:w:

:sl: Ukhti,

It helps in several ways to report a post instead of replying to it..

1. It eliminates the likelihood of any action being the decision of one person.

2. It brings the post to the attention of the mods. Not all threads and poosts are read. Often times we will not even know something offensive has been posted until after it is reported.

3. If members can resist replying to the threads it reduces any need to justify any replies that may have been made out of anger.

4. It keeps the thread from being derailed beyond repair.

5. It makes it easier for the mods to act with fairness and not out of desire to pacify any members.

6. It also removes any sense of accomplishment an offensive poster may briefly enjoy. They usually get evaporated with no fanfare or chance at gaining any supporters.

[جوري]

:sl: Ukhti,

It helps in several ways to report a post instead of replying to it..

1. It eliminates the likelihood of any action being the decision of one person.

2. It brings the post to the attention of the mods. Not all threads and poosts are read. Often times we will not even know something offensive has been posted until after it is reported.

3. If members can resist replying to the threads it reduces any need to justify any replies that may have been made out of anger.

4. It keeps the thread from being derailed beyond repair.

5. It makes it easier for the mods to act with fairness and not out of desire to pacify any members.

6. It also removes any sense of accomplishment an offensive poster may briefly enjoy. They usually get evaporated with no fanfare or chance at gaining any supporters.

agreed, then why does that fellow's diatribe still remain posted?.. I didn't report it nor did I reply to it since I see no purpose of dignifying ranting fulminations with a response but certainly I think the forum is very allowing toward some members, and it drives the Muslims away..which I think detracts from the purpose of an Islamic forum..

Jadal is indeed mentioned in the Quran as a great sin.. to waste years on end in constant Jadal coaxing and handling with kid glove certain people in my humble opinion is an utter waste and a misuse of a Muslim's time..

:w:

[Banu_Hashim]

I think the forum has done a good job to moderate and look after those who are not Muslim :).

But, we must remember this is an Islamic forum first and foremost and the promotion and discussion of Islam and Muslims and da'wah are our primary aim to ultimately better ourselves as Muslims and to do everything fee sabeel lillah. The questioning of Islam, while for non-Muslims is an important step to learning about the deen, I think it's better to give them authentic information from Islamic sources rather than debating with them using their often illogical resoning as seems to be the case with a lot of threads recently and we get no where with those threads!

[Banu_Hashim]

double post...

[glo]

Overall I think the greatest improvement would be if all of us learn to resist the tempation of personal comments directed towards the persona of those we get angry at.

We are people, we are not going to like every member here. we will all see somebody we find irritating. The key is for us to learn to attack the statements and not the person making the statements. a very difficult task sometimes and one that requires much patience and an understanding of fair fighting. It is an area we all fail in on occasion.

Woodrow made this comment in the first half of this thread.
In the second half we find a demonstration of exactly that which he advised us against. :hmm:

This forum should be a peaceful environment in which we can feel safe, relaxed and amongst friends. (And friends does not just mean people we always and every time agree with. We can have disagreements with people and still remain friendly.)

We all desire to be treated with respect and politeness. Why do some of us find it so hard to extend the same to other posters?
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" is quite a simple and universal principle really. It means that you should treat others in the same manner in which you would like to be treated - NOT that you demand to be treated one way, but treat others quite differently yourself!

I detect some real bitterness, anger and hurt in some posts - feelings so deep it may be very difficult to deal with them in a forum environment such as this.
Is there no way we can forgive each others' faults and weaknesses, and look for the good in each other?
Is there no way we can walk away from conflict, and make a new start?

[Woodrow]

agreed, then why does that fellow's diatribe still remain posted?.. I didn't report it nor did I reply to it since I see no purpose of dignifying ranting fulminations with a response but certainly I think the forum is very allowing toward some members, and it drives the Muslims away..which I think detracts from the purpose of an Islamic forum..

Jadal is indeed mentioned in the Quran as a great sin.. to waste years on end in constant Jadal coaxing and handling with kid glove certain people in my humble opinion is an utter waste and a misuse of a Muslim's time..

:w:

:sl:

That is all true and I do agree with you fully on this. However, our actions or inactions towards blatantly offensive members, is not always addressed for the purpose or anticipation of changing them. Sometimes, in fact quite often the actions are done for what we believe to be for the best interest of all members. We also do our best to be certain that any actions are not based simply on the opinions or descretions of any one mod, but rather only after consultation with other mods and admins. This is not always possible such as in cases where it is obvious immediate action must be taken.

Sometimes we can be very slow in deciding what is the best action to take. Other times drivel does remain on a thread much too long, but if we do make an error we do our best that the error be on the side of caution. Far better to be overly cautious in rendering action, than to render actions prematurly.

We do try to go through the most active threads reasonably often and trim out the non-constructive posts. This is only noticeable when a number of posts are deleted simultaneously as is going to happen in this thread within the next few minutes..

[titus]

Is there no way we can forgive each others' faults and weaknesses, and look for the good in each other?
Is there no way we can walk away from conflict, and make a new start?

I am more than willing to be the first to extend an olive branch.

Skye, I will refrain from any negative personal comments about you if you are willing to reciprocate. Hopefully we can start fresh and our future dialogues will be more congenial.

[Pygoscelis]

This thread started with the question of whether we non-muslims feel things are fair and even handed here. It has ended with a demonstration that they are not. Hostility and personal insults are clearly more tolerated against the kafir than against the muslim. With that said I do hope that Titus' olive branch is finally accepted and we can have civil discussion with all members here.

[aamirsaab]

I'm all for civilised discussion btw. Just throwing it out there.

[Grace Seeker]

I wonder if it is appropriate to have the same expectations in the "Discover Islam" section -- which by its name is all about learning about Islam -- and the "Comparative religion" section -- which by its name is going to include learning about other religions? Or....perhaps there needs to be yet another section added such as "Islamic apologetics" then there could be discrimination between those who want to focus more on debate and "proving" non-Islamic faiths in error and those who want to learn what it actually is that non-Islamic faiths believe and teach. There are so many different agendas (even among Mulsims members) by those who participate in the comparative threads, that there is little wonder harmony has a hard time prevailing.

[جوري]

I am more than willing to be the first to extend an olive branch.

Skye, I will refrain from any negative personal comments about you if you are willing to reciprocate. Hopefully we can start fresh and our future dialogues will be more congenial.

I have not been at war with that is something you have created in your own mind, I know there is a lot of you ready to pounce on any sentiment and offer it your own prolegomenon and unnecessary interpretation to make a non-point and turn around from the instigators to the victims. I have no desire nor the time to descend into word play and cater to someone's wiles or tantrums and frankly I am not nor have been emotionally invested in the members here to create an issue or remedy an issue-- a civilized discussion is more than welcome.. I do wonder how many of you are capable of it though when you don't perceive your inferences about others as offensive!

all the best

[Pygoscelis]

The irony is pretty thick right there.

[جوري]

It is a wonder indeed!

[Grace Seeker]

The irony is pretty thick right there.

What do you find so ironic? My guess...these two statements being part of the same post:

I have not been at war with that is something you have created in your own mind,

Whoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him.

Or, was it the following two statements juxtaposed to one another:

a civilized discussion is more than welcome.

I do wonder how many of you are capable of it though

[Templar]

An interesting and worthwhile thread. I'm glad I've read it.

[جوري]

What do you find so ironic? My guess...these two statements being part of the same post:

Or, was it the following two statements juxtaposed to one another:

Do you take me for God? the communication and thought processes of the members here is truly a modern wonder!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

Do you take me for God? the communication and thought processes of the members here is truly a modern wonder!

all the best

No. But I do anticipate that what a person puts in his/her signature to be representative of their own point of view. That which you quoted included an attitude of being at war. If you want to distance yourself from that attitue, why would you quote it? Why not just pick the quote up at the next sentence?

What one choses to include or not include in such signature lines, I believe, tell us something about that person.

[جوري]

No. But I do anticipate that what a person puts in his/her signature to be representative of their own point of view. That which you quoted included an attitude of being at war. If you want to distance yourself from that attitue, why would you quote it? Why not just pick the quote up at the next sentence?

What one choses to include or not include in such signature lines, I believe, tell us something about that person.

Actually what I have quoted is a hadith Qudsi about the importance of nawafil.. I understand that the depth of Islamic prudence, fundamentals pose you a great challenge -- so why take it the extra step and comment on supernumerary duties then with the same level of superficiality tie it together to an unrelated post? If you are having problems with the religion of Islam and its tenets which would include such things as Quran and Ahadith as you have demonstrated so far with your comments, then maybe this is the wrong sort of hangout for you? I am not going to discard a hadith Qudsi which means a great deal to every Muslim to cater to your personal likes or to that of an atheist who knows only the joys of having the last word!

Prime example of instigators playing the victim.. thank you for demonstrating that beautifully!

all the best

[Insaanah]

No. But I do anticipate that what a person puts in his/her signature to be representative of their own point of view. That which you quoted included an attitude of being at war. If you want to distance yourself from that attitue, why would you quote it? Why not just pick the quote up at the next sentence?

Peace, Grace Seeker.

Sister τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ's signature consists of a Hadeeth Qudsi, which are the words of Allah. The hadeeth is about supererogatory acts of worship, performed for His sake. Allah starts by saying that He shall be at war with whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Him.

You may not realise, but when we quote hadeeths, we do not just pick the bits we like and leave out those think someone else may not like. That is the beginning of a slippery slope. We always quote the full hadeeth, with reference where possible.

This hadeeth is full of beautiful and comforting words from our Lord.

If you want to distance yourself from that attitue, why would you quote it?

Firstly, Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He, does not have an attitude. He is stating his position in respect of those who have enmity to those devoted to Him.

Secondly, none of us will ever distance ourselves from the words of our Lord.

Thirdly, I think most of us would be happy to quote any words of Allahs, in fact we could never quote enough.

What one choses to include or not include in such signature lines, I believe, tell us something about that person.

If that is what you believe, then it tells you that the person is striving to get to that stage when Allah loves them that much.

May Allah make us from amongst them. Ameen.

Peace.

[Zafran]

salaam

when not understanding a hadith and commenting on it is a very foolish thing to do indeed.

peace

[Pygoscelis]

Grace Seeker, either of those quotes will do, though I was referring generally to the hostile attitude contained in the post while purporting to be a post about not being hostile or looking for fights. Seems now even you have been declared an "instigator" and enemy, which to me is rather laughable. You're one of the most bend over backwards to get along with everybody posters I've seen on here. It just shows the us vs them tribal mentality that too often takes over this board.

[Asiyah3]

It just shows the us vs them tribal mentality that too often takes over this board.

Us vs them? I can easily show you posts of sis Lily where she's been equally direct or straightforward with Muslims.

[جوري]

salaam

when not understanding a hadith and commenting on it is a very foolish thing to do indeed.

peace

that would require some efforts and everyone here is comfortable with their ideology.. for instance the atheist if fond of 'tribalism' it is a term he references often-- one can safely conclude that categorizing occurrences is comfortable for him because anything beyond that requires a thought outside the box, that is further cemented by his need to have the last word especially so when the topic is geared in a direction that is well 'less tribal' how can he drive the drivel home if the examples available don't readily fit into that status quo?.. so naturally instigating an incident, any incident to cause ire and inflame whereby he can have an 'I told you so moment' is ultimately very necessary and will crop often..

.. I am amused often, I think for the most part people can see through the charade but if you like to regress back to schoolboy buffooneries and puerile antics then pull up a chair and get some popcorn for mediocre entertainment..

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Peace, Grace Seeker.

Sister τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ's signature consists of a Hadeeth Qudsi, which are the words of Allah. The hadeeth is about supererogatory acts of worship, performed for His sake. Allah starts by saying that He shall be at war with whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Him.

You may not realise, but when we quote hadeeths, we do not just pick the bits we like and leave out those think someone else may not like. That is the beginning of a slippery slope. We always quote the full hadeeth, with reference where possible.

This hadeeth is full of beautiful and comforting words from our Lord.

Yes, I see all of that. And while I might argue that the editing of a passage to reflect one's personal point of view is a reasonable act, your point regarding how it could lead to a slippery slope is well taken.

I also know that there are 1000 other passages that could have been quoted, and she chose this one. I'm not saying that one should not chose this one even. I'm just saying that I see some irony in this being so significant in Lily's life that it is used as her signature and her at the same time saying that she is not at war. She is....with the forces of darkness or any other thing (or I suspect person) that stands as an enemy to Allah. I actually think that such a stance is commendable. But there does remain a touch of irony in the two, don't you think?

[Insaanah]

I also know that there are 1000 other passages that could have been quoted, and she chose this one. I'm not saying that one should not chose this one even. I'm just saying that I see some irony in this being so significant in Lily's life that it is used as her signature and her at the same time saying that she is not at war. She is....with the forces of darkness or any other thing (or I suspect person) that stands as an enemy to Allah. I actually think that such a stance is commendable. But there does remain a touch of irony in the two, don't you think?

No, not at all. There is absolutely no reason that any of us would hesitate to quote that hadeeth or think twice about it. Personally, it is one of my favourites too, and I certainly wouldn't choose from 1000 others if I liked that one the most, found it the most comforting, or the most encouraging to do good deeds.

If someone else were to use it, you perhaps wouldn't bat an eyelid, so I'm not sure why you're doing so here. Due to your lack of understanding of it, because the word war is mentioned, to you that is what the whole hadeeth is about, thus anyone who quotes it must be at war with others, and that "being at war with others" must be so significant in their life for them to have quoted it. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way, and if you read beyond the first sentence, you'll get an idea of what the hadeeth might be about.

There are other passages as well, where Allah mentions his anger with people who do certain acts, and immense pleasure with those who do certain other acts, in the same passage. Now if I quoted one of those, then to you, I guess the inference will be that I am an angry person? That's a rather strange way of reasoning.

You don't seem to be reading beyond the first sentence of it, have homed in on one word of your choosing out of all the words in it, created an issue out of a signature of all things, and put 2 and 2 together to make 5.

Peace.

[Zafran]

Grace Seeker, either of those quotes will do, though I was referring generally to the hostile attitude contained in the post while purporting to be a post about not being hostile or looking for fights. Seems now even you have been declared an "instigator" and enemy, which to me is rather laughable. You're one of the most bend over backwards to get along with everybody posters I've seen on here. It just shows the us vs them tribal mentality that too often takes over this board.

Your doing a great job of reducing the "us vs "them" tribal mentality! no wonder it takes over this board. Oh I'm sorry this post was directed to Grace seeker - I get it the rest of us must be "them".

[Pygoscelis]

Your doing a great job of reducing the "us vs "them" tribal mentality! no wonder it takes over this board. Oh I'm sorry this post was directed to Grace seeker - I get it the rest of us must be "them".

I'd really rather you didn't see yourself that way. But some here clearly do, regarding those who think as they do as brothers and sisters and those who may have other ideas as the enemy to be attacked. I would rather have a discussion with all of us without the hostility towards "the other" which is why although my ideas may be offensive to some, I make every effort to refrain from personal attacks ( though it can be hard to resist responding in kind to those who act in such a manner). Ideas are not people and ideas can be exchanged, explored, endorsed, and criticized without reducing the whole thing to "my team" vs "your team" and schoolyard taunts as too often happens. If people declare those who don't think like they do as enemies then all hope for peace is lost.

[titus]

I believe the two responses to Grace Seekers post, #59 by Lily and #60 by Insane Insaan, perfectly exemplify the positive and negative ways to have discussions on this forum.

Lily's response is a personal attack against the poster, while Insane Insaan gives a response that is about the subject matter.

The attacks really need to stop and people need to learn how to make a point or disagree with someone without resorting to insults and derogatory language.

[glo]

^
I agree.
Personally, I have learned much about Islam and the conduct it teaches from Insane Insaan and others like her. Thank you, all of you. You know who you are. :statisfie

[Zafran]

I'd really rather you didn't see yourself that way. But some here clearly do, regarding those who think as they do as brothers and sisters and those who may have other ideas as the enemy to be attacked. I would rather have a discussion with all of us without the hostility towards "the other" which is why although my ideas may be offensive to some, I make every effort to refrain from personal attacks ( though it can be hard to resist responding in kind to those who act in such a manner). Ideas are not people and ideas can be exchanged, explored, endorsed, and criticized without reducing the whole thing to "my team" vs "your team" and schoolyard taunts as too often happens. If people declare those who don't think like they do as enemies then all hope for peace is lost.

the last 3 posts above me preety much show us tribalism - 3 non muslims preety much saying the same thing - do you think that pointing out specific people isnt a personal attack? which most of you are doing here. The simple thing is that you guys are on a islamicboard forum - not a christain board, not an atheist board - theres bound to be people taking sides simply because those who believe in Islam will clearly take one side and the people that disagree the other side. The same is with atheists and christians. So its preety much hypocircy to say we shouldnt do "us" vs "them" when all of us will ultimatly fall into that area anyway. You guys are a great example of it right here - you just made a tribe.

[Asiyah3]

The simple thing is that you guys are on a islamicboard forum - not a christain board, not an atheist board - theres bound to be people taking sides simply because those who believe in Islam will clearly take one side and the people that disagree the other side. The same is with atheists and christians.

I couldn't agree more.

[glo]

The simple thing is that you guys are on a islamicboard forum - not a christain board, not an atheist board - theres bound to be people taking sides simply because those who believe in Islam will clearly take one side and the people that disagree the other side. The same is with atheists and christians.

Actually, I think that's very simplified.

I am a Christian, but that does not mean I cannot agree with people from other faiths or none on certain issues.
I often find myself agreeing with the Muslims or atheists here on some issues - and I say so.
Equally, I sometimes find myself disagreeing with other Christians - and I say so too.

I may follow a specific faith, but that does not mean I do not share views and opinions with those from other faiths and worldviews.

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.

And when we disagree with each other - it isn't a question of always agreeing with one another, but the ability to disagree amicably and not to let that disagreement cloud our relationship with others permanently.

[Zafran]

Actually, I think that's very simplified.

I am a Christian, but that does not mean I cannot agree with people from other faiths or none on certain issues.
I often find myself agreeing with the Muslims or atheists here on some issues - and I say so.
Equally, I sometimes find myself disagreeing with other Christians - and I say so too.

I may follow a specific faith, but that does not mean I do not share views and opinions with those from other faiths and worldviews.

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.

And when we disagree with each other - it isn't a question of always agreeing with one another, but the ability to disagree amicably and not to let that disagreement cloud our relationship with others permanently.

You do understand that your on a religious forum? thats why there are so many threads about 1 religion vs the other or one belief vs the other. At the end of the day it is an islamicboard. Second all debates get reduced to "us" vs "them" anyway and this isnt exclusive any muslim but everyone - christains and atheists included.

Simply sharing a belief with an atheist and undisclosed shows that you can have common views - that doesnt mean that your out of the "us" vs "them" sphere. Anybody that comes on this thread can see that.

[جوري]

Most debates may have an 'us vs. them' element - but it doesn't have to be 'my religion' vs. 'your religion'.
]

You are absolutely right, you don't use the us vs. them approach, rather the I have read and confused approach for instance, you've read the Quran cover to cover yet confused about the 'mohammedan practice' of pilgrimage in which you not only missed a good 23~24 verses on the matter but a chapter so entitled!

you are confused as to why God would grant respite to Muslim women during the fast of Ramadan so you conclude it must be because God despises women and thinks they are dirty. conveniently ignoring verses in the bible that actually echo that exact sentiment that you wish to project unto Islam.

you are confused as to why we fast, and decide to fast a day in 'show of solidarity' yet come with the verse from your bible that you don't desire to fast as you put it 'the hypocrites do' which in fact for no other reason than learning of the hardships and discipline that Muslims go through, so 'hypocrisy' seems like a nicer alternative!

etc. etc. but who is keeping record when you are so fair, and just and loving?

all the best

[titus]

My post highlighted two methods of dialogue. One which I find condusive to friendly dialogue and one that I find opposed to friendly dialogue.

Both examples were written by Muslims, so I fail to see how my post, and those that agreed with it, can be seen as "us vs them". If you would like I could also easily give examples of both kinds of posts from non-muslims also.

[Zafran]

My post highlighted two methods of dialogue. One which I find condusive to friendly dialogue and one that I find opposed to friendly dialogue.

Both examples were written by Muslims, so I fail to see how my post, and those that agreed with it, can be seen as "us vs them". If you would like I could also easily give examples of both kinds of posts from non-muslims also.

Looking again might help from all your comments.

[titus]

I read it again and fail to see how it in any way can be taken as Muslim against non-Muslim.

[Grace Seeker]

If someone else were to use it, you perhaps wouldn't bat an eyelid, so I'm not sure why you're doing so here.

This is very true. Indeed, Lily has used it for a considerable period of time and I didn't bat an eye(lid) at it until the post above. Then the contrast was, to me at least, rather glaring.

Due to your lack of understanding of it, because the word war is mentioned, to you that is what the whole hadeeth is about, thus anyone who quotes it must be at war with others, and that "being at war with others" must be so significant in their life for them to have quoted it. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way, and if you read beyond the first sentence, you'll get an idea of what the hadeeth might be about.

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the hadeeth. I do see that it is largely about the relationship between Allah and his servant. Reading it out of context, I don't know if "the servant" is specifically Muhammad (this is what I suspect), or if it could apply to any servant of Allah (which would seem equally applicable to me even if it was originally intended as a reference to Muhammad). The problem is not with my ability to understand the passage, but with a difference in our hermeneutical approach to it. As the issue of being at war is NOT central to the passage, I see no need for including it and if choosing said hadeeth for my signature, would have begun with the second sentence. Thus, for me and my understanding, to use the first sentence in conjunction with the rest of the hadeeth is to say that this first sentence speaks to the person quoting it on par with the rest of the hadeeth. If that is the case, then it seems that the issue of being at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Allah is just as significant to the poster as is the rest of the hadeeth. Now, you (pardon me if it was another and not you) say that in Islam one quotes the whole of the hadeeth. That is not my hermeneutic, but I can respect the pattern. So, then, I suggest that one has to take a look at the whole of the hadeeth, not just one portion of it, and ask oneself if the whole of the thing speaks for the poster or not. If so, post it. If not, then don't. But if one does post it, recognize that one has post a hadeeth in one's signature that speaks in a particular way with regard to war, and to ask the rest of us to ignore that just because one says something diametrically the opposite of that in one's post is asking too much.

There are other passages as well, where Allah mentions his anger with people who do certain acts, and immense pleasure with those who do certain other acts, in the same passage. Now if I quoted one of those, then to you, I guess the inference will be that I am an angry person? That's a rather strange way of reasoning.

No, but I would infer that you likewise probably have anger toward those particular acts. And if you were to write in a post that you didn't, I would question why the discreppancy and which point of view was truly authentically representative of you.

[Grace Seeker]

Second all debates get reduced to "us" vs "them" anyway and this isnt exclusive any muslim but everyone - christains and atheists included.

I agree. This is what happens. I disagree that just because it is what happens that it also needs to be this way and that we can't improve. "Us" vs "Them" is a symptom of the human condition. But it is a symptom of what is wrong with that condition, not, I don't believe, the way that God intends for us to be. "Us" vs "Them" has plunged humanity into all sorts of wars. Some of those wars are the type that get written about in history books. Even more wars are the type that take place between neighbors over the placement of backyard fences or who "we" are willing to let move into the neighborhood.

I live in a part of the country where a whole host of divisions between "Us" vs "Them" exist. People divide over poltics -- Republicans vs. Democrats. People divide over favorite sports teams -- Cubs vs. Cardinals. People divide over socio-economic status -- white-collar vs. blue-collar. And while that may be natural (and even fun at times -- at least with sports teams), the continued division into smaller and smaller groups in which everyone has to be like me reduces down to isolated groups of 1.

One of the "Us" vs. "Them" discussions that I grew up with centered on skin color. Nicole Mullen wrote a song about that which I think speaks well to the issue:

COLOR, by Nicole Mullen

Just because my skin is brown
It don't define who I am
I could be a porcupine
Or I could be a little lamb

Please don't try and judge me
Only by the colors you have seen
To love me is to know me
Whether red, yellow, black or green

(Chorus)
Color is skin deep
But true beauty lives on and on
Color is skin deep
But true beauty lives on and on

Her skin might be ivory
And he might be from Japan
But that don't make a better woman
That don't make a lesser man

Please don't try to judge 'em
Only by the colors you have seen
To love 'em is to know 'em
Whether red, yellow, white, or green

(Chorus)

(Bridge)
Color is the shape of the rainbow
Color is the tint of the sky
It's not a person, place or thing
It's only a description of you and I
Like the colors on the frame of a house
Will not tell you of the colors within
So why would I try to judge
A man by the shade of his skin?

(Chorus)

Those things that describe us, don't have to define us unless we choose for them to.

[Rabi'ya]

:sl:

This thread is really getting on my nerves. Surely it is our duty as Muslims to sit patiently and discuss and debate issues relevant to todays society with Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

I would like to make one thing clear. I have been on this forum for almost 5 years now and at one point was a VERY active member. Due to one reason and another my attendance declined but recently felt I would like to rejoin. The attitude and manners (or lack of) shown by some Muslims towards non-Muslims is shocking. It has made me rethink my wish to join here.

The one thing I would like to say on the issue is ....... shouldn't we consider how the Prophet (saw) would deal with non-Muslims? How did he live with non-Muslims? A class I attended last week was discussing how at the time of the Prophet there was religious coexistence rather than religious tolerance. Nowadays everyone preaches tolerance but as Muslims we should strive much further than this. We have much more in common with non-Muslims than many people like to think.

And another thing....every time one of us(as Muslims) is disrespectful, rude or patronising towards others we are giving the reward to the others and are accumulating sins instead.

We all need to think and rethink before we speak(or post). Less haste.

[cat eyes]

well if the non muslim starts abusing our religion and can't speak in a respectful manner then i think we as muslims should not tolerate that then and these non muslims should be banned.

because its a total waste of time trying to argue with these types of non muslims who make out that islam is the cause of oppression in the world. it just really gets on my nerves these stupid trolls who don't want to learn about islam at all.

personally if a non muslim came to me and asked me where is the best place to learn islam, i would not recommend a forum for learning this deen because not only is there trolls which join a forum there is also some dodgy muslims which join too some extremist muslims and non practicing muslims

however there is some brilliant muslims on board who are brilliant at arguing with non muslims in polite straight forward manner however i wish i could say the same for everyone.

I just keep out of debates because i am no good in debating.

[Insaanah]

I'm not sure why you think I don't understand the hadeeth. I do see that it is largely about the relationship between Allah and his servant. Reading it out of context, I don't know if "the servant" is specifically Muhammad (this is what I suspect, or if it could apply to any servant of Allah (which would seem equally applicable to me even if it was originally intended as a reference to Muhammad).

It is equally applicable.

The problem is not with my ability to understand the passage, but with a difference in our hermeneutical approach to it. As the issue of being at war is NOT central to the passage, I see no need for including it and if choosing said hadeeth for my signature, would have begun with the second sentence.

I am sorry, but you are reading too much into things and being somewhat over-sensitive about this. You say you understand that the word war is NOT central to the passage, yet say thus there is no need to include it. That seems somewhat contradictory to me. If you understand that it's not the central thing in the passage, then there shouldn't be a problem because your understanding is telling you it's not central. Again, I feel a whole issue is being created here out of a signature.

Thus, for me and my understanding, to use the first sentence in conjunction with the rest of the hadeeth is to say that this first sentence speaks to the person quoting it on par with the rest of the hadeeth. If that is the case, then it seems that the issue of being at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Allah is just as significant to the poster as is the rest of the hadeeth. Now, you (pardon me if it was another and not you) say that in Islam one quotes the whole of the hadeeth. That is not my hermeneutic, but I can respect the pattern. So, then, I suggest that one has to take a look at the whole of the hadeeth, not just one portion of it, and ask oneself if the whole of the thing speaks for the poster or not. If so, post it. If not, then don't.

It is a whole hadeeth. As I stated before, and I'm happy to state again, we don't leave out bits we think others might not like. I can understand that that word war in there probably isn't to your liking, but the whole hadeeth will still get quoted. We are not apologetic about any of the words in the Qur'an or hadeeth, and feel no need to remove portions to cater to the sensibilities of others who may not like it, or who may draw their own incorrect inferences from it. If Allah says He is at war with those who show enmity to those devoted to Him, as part of a longer passage in which He comforts and encourages those devoted to Him, there is absolutely no need to remove/cut/edit/delete sentences from it, at all.

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to this "does the whole thing speak for you? If so post it, and if not then don't" theory. Whole hadeeths will be posted, and if someone doesn't like that or can't understand it, I'm sorry.

Perhaps the problem that you perceive exists lies here: You are viewing it very much as "are our signatures representative of us, or are the hadeeths we post, is every single word representative of us, or of our personal opinion." When we post, we are posting the whole hadeeth; we are not thinking of "is it representative of us or our personal opinion?", we want to post the whole hadeeth, without additions or deletions, just all of Allah's (or the Prophet's :saws: as the case may be) beautiful words in the passage, and that however the passage was transmitted in the hadeeth, we are transmitting it completely unadulterated in the same way.

But if one does post it, recognize that one has post a hadeeth in one's signature that speaks in a particular way with regard to war, and to ask the rest of us to ignore that just because one says something diametrically the opposite of that in one's post is asking too much.

I am sorry that's asking too much of you!

Peace.

[جوري]

I am sorry that's asking too much of you.

Peace.

You need not apologize for anything in Islam. Islam isn't Christianity, God will not mold the religion to acquiesce to the desires of televangelists and the likes whose sole existence is about stealth crusading using whatever ignoble means.
I didn't even wish to dignify that whole statement with a response partially because of the baseness with which it brings down the religion and secondly because it was completely irrelevant and as stated earlier some will stoop to whatever means to create an issue where there is none to state grievances which they have created in their mind with the expectation that we are to modify parts and constituents to cater to their whims..

Isn't that exactly what ails them and what ails their religion?

53:23] ------- They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire! Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord!

[Maryan0]

It is not a duty upon muslims to be patient with non-muslims who come to attack Islam. It is our duty to answer questions from non-muslims and muslims if they are seeking clarification or dawah. Meaningless debate which is what a lot of topics particularly in certain areas of this forum digress too is not islamic neither do I think it is pleasent for muslims to have to constantly defend Islam from such attacks on a muslim forum. If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on. Why certain topics turn into 50 page debates when the answer was clarfied on page 1, I dont understand.
The example of the hadith in sis Skye's signature on this topic is just one example.
Salam

[Grace Seeker]

I am sorry that's asking too much of you!

I actually appreciate the points you have made. I get that while I may think it appropriate to be selective in the quoting of just those portions of a hadeeth that reflect one's viewpoints, that for a Muslim it might be inappropriate to do any editing. That leads to another question, but not one for this thread.

I also get that Muslims are going to value different things than do non-Muslims. And I can see how this particular hadeeth would have value to the Muslim. I can even see how that portion that I am not enamored by might have meaning to the Muslim.

What I am asking you and others that take offence to me drawing attention to it to see, is that if someone posts something such as this hadeeth as one's signature, that others who read it might understand it to be reflective of that poster's views. And as such, the views of the signature and the views of the written post that The Vales Lily made expressed two points of view that she might hold as consistent with one another, but might be just as easily seen as inconsistent by others.

This thread began by asking the question:

Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

Apparently the answer to that question is:

If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on.

[جوري]

No one is taking offense at you drawing attention to the hadith, if we wanted to hide it we wouldn't post it for a siggy so that it is read over and over-- we are rather marveling at the irrelevance with which you desire to espouse this hadith with the matter at hand.. how desperate are you for a straw-man?
I fear that your definition of inconsistency is lost to us, perhaps you can get a couple of board jesters and yes men to validate your views so that what you wrote here would have some semblance of credence!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

[B]No one is taking offense at you drawing attention to the hadith, if we wanted to hide it we wouldn't post it for a siggy so that it is read over and over-- we are rather marveling at the irrelevance with which you desire to espouse this hadith with the matter at hand..

It sure seemed to me like some were taking offence. But if not, then that's good. We are done. Some will see the relevance and some won't. That's just the way it is.

All the best.

[جوري]

It sure seemed to me like some were taking offence. But if not, then that's good. We are done. Some will see the relevance and some won't. That's just the way it is.

All the best.

wise words indeed.. and we are glad for their evolution thereafter .. ever the diplomat you are!

& ditto

[Ramadhan]

off topic,
but as someone else has previously said, 100% honestly, the hadith on sis lily's signature was among my most favorite hadith when I was on the down.
It gives good news to muslims that as long as we completely live our life for Allah SWT, then we should not be worried or afraid of anything or anyone.

[Insaanah]

What I am asking you and others that take offence to me drawing attention to it to see,

None of us has taken offence at it. If anything I'm somewhat bemused by all this.

And, as to your "drawing attention to it" for all to see, that is a non-issue, because the signature is there openly for all to read, there's nothing to hide in it, be embarrassed of, or apologise about. Everyone in this forum has read it, and nobody else seems to have the vaguest problem with that beautiful hadeeth. Most likely because people read the whole hadeeth and see that

It gives good news to muslims that as long as we completely live our life for Allah SWT, then we should not be worried or afraid of anything or anyone.

Nowhere in that passage is Allah telling His servant to declare war; Allah is stating His own position, yet despite that, there is a repeated and persistent insistence that somehow the person using that signature is doing so because they are at war with others in some way.

I can see how this repeated and persistent insistence at reading something into the passage that is clearly not there must be exasperating.

is that if someone posts something such as this hadeeth as one's signature, that others who read it might understand it to be reflective of that poster's views. And as such, the views of the signature and the views of the written post that The Vales Lily made expressed two points of view that she might hold as consistent with one another, but might be just as easily seen as inconsistent by others.

Clarified above.

This thread began by asking the question:

Originally Posted by Woodrow
Do our non-Muslim members feel unfairly treated and/or stifled in the ability to speak openly?

Apparently the answer to that question is:

Originally Posted by Lisa0
If the non-muslims have a question they can get an answer if they dont like the answer move on.

I don't think Lisa0 is attempting to answer that question here. The statement by her in no way suggests that people must be stifled. A degree of common sense must prevail here amongst those asking questions too. If five or six pages of a thread are devoted to one question, which a person has answered, yet there is a repeated persistence at asking the same question again and again hoping for the answer to be changed (as happened to me in another thread with another person a few months ago, I'm not talking about this thread), thus a reply repeatedly given explaining the answer and the reason for it, and if the responder eventually sounds exasperated, that is not stifling of speech.

We are done.

I think that is of benefit to everyone.

Peace.

[glo]

You are absolutely right, you don't use the us vs. them approach, rather the I have read and confused approach for instance, you've read the Quran cover to cover yet confused about the 'mohammedan practice' of pilgrimage in which you not only missed a good 23~24 verses on the matter but a chapter so entitled!

you are confused as to why God would grant respite to Muslim women during the fast of Ramadan so you conclude it must be because God despises women and thinks they are dirty. conveniently ignoring verses in the bible that actually echo that exact sentiment that you wish to project unto Islam.

you are confused as to why we fast, and decide to fast a day in 'show of solidarity' yet come with the verse from your bible that you don't desire to fast as you put it 'the hypocrites do' which in fact for no other reason than learning of the hardships and discipline that Muslims go through, so 'hypocrisy' seems like a nicer alternative!

etc. etc. but who is keeping record when you are so fair, and just and loving?

all the best

Greetings, Lily

Your post really took me aback, and I have been thinking about it ever since I first read it.

You see, I make no apology for asking questions, sometimes even challenging questions.
It is how I learn and engage with new topics.
Not only with Islam, but with many other things in my daily life too - I ask similar questions of my own faith, of politics, of work related issues, or personal relationships etc etc.
Without asking questions, how can I learn and grow and develop??

I try my very, very hardest to ask questions in ways which are not insulting or offensive. If I don't always succeed, then I apologise. But believe me that it is never my intention to offend!

I cannot and will not go into the individual points you have raised. The original threads are likely to have disappeared in the recent forum crashes, and this really isn't the place to resurrect them - it would take the thread completely off topic ...
Let me just say that of the issues you have mentioned, some I have come to understand better - thanks to the kind explanations people have offered -, others I continue to disagree and/or struggle with, and others still you have simply misunderstood.
I will leave it at that.

* * *

What really took me aback most, Lily, is that these discussions/disagreements to which you refer happened months, some even several years ago!
Have you remembered them and held a grudge for so long? imsad
If so, why??
Because I asked questions pertaining to your faith?
Because I disagreed with the answers?
Because you couldn't persuade me otherwise?

Lily, we may disagree on certain aspects of our lives and/or faiths ... but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies, dislike each other or never agree with each other in any other aspects!

Please, not for my sake or the sake of anybody else here, but for your own sake, learn to let things go, forgive and move on.
Don't let anger and bitterness eat you up!

I hope and pray that you will receive this post in the spirit in which it is intended – as a gesture of peace and friendship.

God's peace and joy to you, Lily

[جوري]

Greetings, Lily

Hello!

Your post really took me aback, and I have been thinking about it ever since I first read it.

I can't imagine why? I have always been very straight forward-- or is it that you don't like your shortcomings aired out in public but enjoy dispensing with them in an occult fashion in hopes others will see them for something other than what they are?

You see, I make no apology for asking questions, sometimes even challenging questions.
It is how I learn and engage with new topics.

I have never found any of your Q's challenging, I find them to be boldly marked by deception, ill thought of, and then abandoned when at a loss to reconcile with your own convictions!

Not only with Islam, but with many other things in my daily life too - I ask similar questions of my own faith, of politics, of work related issues, or personal relationships etc etc.

What you do in your personal time is of no interest to the topic here!

Without asking questions, how can I learn and grow and develop??

There are multitudes of ways to ask Q's for instance if you wanted to ask about 'mohameddan practices outside of the Quran', don't firstly allege that you've read the Quran cover to cover-- what do you think? in the least to loan your queries some semblance of truth seeking- The reality is you constantly tighten the noose around your neck and then allege that you have asked 'the tough question' if in fact those are tough questions, then I pity your simple minded existence!

I try my very, very hardest to ask questions in ways which are not insulting or offensive. If I don't always succeed, then I apologise. But believe me that it is never my intention to offend!

I think your honesty is something you have to work out with yourself!

I cannot and will not go into the individual points you have raised. The original threads are likely to have disappeared in the recent forum crashes, and this really isn't the place to resurrect them - it would take the thread completely off topic ...
Let me just say that of the issues you have mentioned, some I have come to understand better - thanks to the kind explanations people have offered -, others I continue to disagree and/or struggle with, and others still you have simply misunderstood.
I will leave it at that.

Convenient!

* * *

What really took me aback most, Lily, is that these discussions/disagreements to which you refer happened months, some even several years ago!
Have you remembered them and held a grudge for so long? imsad
If so, why??

you continue in fact on the same path, and I hold no grudges against random forumers if I did then I wouldn't simply say it as it is!

Because I asked questions pertaining to your faith?
Because I disagreed with the answers?
Because you couldn't persuade me otherwise?

If you are keen on rhetoric and drawing satisfaction out of your overly-simplistic conclusions in that smarmy way you have mastered and enjoy dispensing with, then why do you keep being a member of this forum? I find your queries and conclusions inane at best? and do Pls. do tell of a time I have solicited you at all to be Muslim-- in fact I insist on it!

Lily, we may disagree on certain aspects of our lives and/or faiths ... but that doesn't mean we have to be enemies, dislike each other or never agree with each other in any other aspects!

as stated before I make no emotional investment in random forumers-- but I choose the friends I keep, and their their trust and friendship is earned, not thrust upon!

Please, not for my sake or the sake of anybody else here, but for your own sake, learn to let things go, forgive and move on.
Don't let anger and bitterness eat you up!

You are way too funny.. you have made up your own fulsome movie and live in it and expect everyone else to take part in it!

I hope and pray .

You do that!

[titus]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

William Shakespeare

[Trumble]

That's one way of putting it. I don't think I've seen anything quite as unjustified, arrogant and unpleasant as that since I've been here, and aimed at glo of all people. Very, very sad. :hmm:

[Woodrow]

This thread is closed for a routine cleanup, It will reopen for business after a haircut and general bath, if I can recall what the original topic is.

:threadclo: