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h-n
07-08-2010, 01:40 AM
In the past evil leaders used to kill the Males and spare the females.

I see no difference in there preference for females over males.

Some links;-

Chemicals effecting Males

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ting-risk.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/env...-problems.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...x-1055688.html

someone's thought;-

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/12_03/x_and_y_review.php

very funny thoughts;-

http://ryanmarchman.com/wordpress/?p=163

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/newsc...visonetal.html


The above talks about chemicals effecting males and why are we really not hearing many males have those cool deep voices as they used to.

If it was just a simple error with chemicals etc, I don't trust the government, and the fact that the media likes to portray a male not being masculine anymore. Perhaps to get them to be more acceptable?? +o(

Plus the fact that the governments have already acknowledged that policies have not been "family orientated". Making it harder for Males to provide for their families without the need of a wife to work. Now they need the wife to work to help make ends meet. Of course both husband and wife work as part of life, if they are in poverty to help make ends meet, but the fact is that they have made it harder for new couples to get a home, and even having to have a joint mortgage etc. So what is the Man's role in this world?? If they are making it harder for them to provide.

Even scientist going as far to experiment on females getting pregnant without the need for a sperm. So again why bother experimenting on this, if they really cared about people?

Why is that they have not sorted out the alcohol, drugs (which there is reference to saying that the Taliban actually were getting rid of them, and that is why they invaded Afghanistan, and even it was confirmed that production went up), if they really cared about the welfare of people??

Just making things socially acceptable which does not have a good image of a Man, I mean why can't they dress like men, why always in a track suits, jeans etc?

A Man's image is were he is responsible, mature, and you can't just be respected by wearing a track suit, jeans all the time. That is why what the Prophets wore were the best and what you see Muslim men wear in the Arab countries. They of course didn't get the Elves in the "Lord of the rings" movie or the Timelords in the "Doctor Who" series to dress in track suits, jeans. They wore long flowing cloths, which frankly gains respect.

As stated in the "Society evils" thread, I do see females working as a good thing for females as they can't be like Muslim women when their males do not teach people to be religious. So when the western females stand on the Day of Judgement, they cannot say they did not have any options and were forced to live with non-Muslim Males and couldn't do what they needed to do in order to make it to Paradise.

So is anybody else seeing a decline of Masculinity???

a. do you think a Muslim Man's dress code is better
b. do you think that being a Muslim Man is better at keeping and being a Man with his responsibilites?
Reply

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PouringRain
07-08-2010, 02:38 AM
I don't see a decline of masculinity, but what I see is men lost and unsure of their role. This loss manifests in extremes of either hyper-masculinity or hypo-masculinity. It also seems as though males are not becoming "adults" until their late 30's. I am not saying this to pick on males by any means, nor to make sweeping generalizations. This is just my own personal observations on the topic. I am also not blaming males for these problems that I see. I think that when women began taking on the roles of men, it left men floundering with no longer knowing what their own roles were-- roles in society, in the home, etc. Over time this led to a whole lot of other problems within them. Sadly, there arises a vicious cycle where when men have lost themselves, then women feel the need to step up into the roles in order to support themselves, their family, be the strength, etc.

Maybe I make no sense. :) *shrug*
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Lynx
07-08-2010, 04:41 AM
Plus the fact that the governments have already acknowledged that policies have not been "family orientated". Making it harder for Males to provide for their families without the need of a wife to work. Now they need the wife to work to help make ends meet. Of course both husband and wife work as part of life, if they are in poverty to help make ends meet, but the fact is that they have made it harder for new couples to get a home, and even having to have a joint mortgage etc. So what is the Man's role in this world?? If they are making it harder for them to provide.
You make it seem that the government does it on purpose? I can't speak for your particular government but generally You live in the West and in the West where you have the option of working or not working. To every employer you go you have an agreement that you will exchange n amount of hours (or however your salary is made up) for x amount of money. Now, in your mind you look at the possible things you can buy with x amount of money so if you think the house down the street is worth you working x amount of time then you will work n amount of time in order to buy that house. Things don't come for free and sometimes, if one person (say the husband) does not make enough money to buy that nice house down the street then the wife takes on a job in order to pay for it. So the problem is not that the government is trying on purpose to screw men over in order to get women to work; the problem is that people want more stuff. Btw, sometimes the government needs people to work like in the case of WW2 where men were off fighting Nazis and women were encouraged to work for the benefit of the country (i.e., everyone's).

Even scientist going as far to experiment on females getting pregnant without the need for a sperm. So again why bother experimenting on this, if they really cared about people?
What are you referring to exactly? And even if they were experimenting on this what would be the problem? It would benefit women or men who did not want to get married or had health problems that stopped them from getting pregnant the old fashioned way which shows caring for people.

Why is that they have not sorted out the alcohol, drugs (which there is reference to saying that the Taliban actually were getting rid of them, and that is why they invaded Afghanistan, and even it was confirmed that production went up), if they really cared about the welfare of people??
How would you sort out the drug and alcohol problem? There was such a thing as the 'prohibition era' and that didn't work. Unfortunately, if there's a large enough demand for something there tends to be a supply. The problem is not solvable IMO.

Just making things socially acceptable which does not have a good image of a Man, I mean why can't they dress like men, why always in a track suits, jeans etc?

A Man's image is were he is responsible, mature, and you can't just be respected by wearing a track suit, jeans all the time. That is why what the Prophets wore were the best and what you see Muslim men wear in the Arab countries. They of course didn't get the Elves in the "Lord of the rings" movie or the Timelords in the "Doctor Who" series to dress in track suits, jeans. They wore long flowing cloths, which frankly gains respect.
I think suits are great and command a lot of respect.
Reply

noorseeker
07-08-2010, 06:12 AM
A lot of guys nowadays take more care of their appearence, e.g hair , clothes .

The males role is a provider and he should feel that inside of him, Not slouch around at home relying on the state.

I know guys you can call real men , and their not guys with bulging muscles.

i wear tracksuits, nothing wrong with that , im not looking for non muslim respect
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titus
07-08-2010, 06:20 AM
They wore long flowing cloths, which frankly gains respect.
That is purely cultural. I know here in Texas that wearing a robe does not imbue any aura of respect on anyone. Also when the Prophets wore robes everyone wore robes. It was not a fashion statement, it was just simply the fashion.

b. do you think that being a Muslim Man is better at keeping and being a Man with his responsibilites?
It depends on your definition of "Man". What, specifically, defines a man for you?
Reply

h-n
07-08-2010, 07:05 AM
Originally Posted by titus
That is purely cultural. I know here in Texas that wearing a robe does not imbue any aura of respect on anyone. Also when the Prophets wore robes everyone wore robes. It was not a fashion statement, it was just simply the fashion.

It depends on your definition of "Man". What, specifically, defines a man for you?
Obviously trolling again, and lying on my other threads, quit coming into my threads for trolling.

I will add that the only Men in this world are the ones that worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, in Paradise and Hell. The best examples of Men were the Prophets Lut, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Ibrahim, David, Solomon peace be upon them.

Also the Muslim Man's dress code does bring out respect, not just because the Prophets wore them, because you can't call it a fashion when ALL the Prophets wore them. It is worn as it is the best.

Wearing shorts does not bring out people respecting you as a Man, and frankly neither does jeans or track suits.

There is no need to talk about what is respected in Texas, because what about if the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him visited there?? What do you think people would do, make fun out of what he is wearing? BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY, because it shows disrespect for the Prophets!
Reply

titus
07-08-2010, 07:19 AM
Obviously trolling again, and lying on my other threads, quit coming into my threads for trolling.
I am not trolling. If you think I am trolling then report me. I was asking an extremely relevant question. You regret the decline in masculinity. I asked you to define it, which you did not do.

I ask you again, what specifically defines a man for you?

Also the Muslim Man's dress code does bring out respect, not just because the Prophets wore them, because you can't call it a fashion when ALL the Prophets wore them. It is worn as it is the best.
Everyone wore robes during the time of the prophets. The kings wore them and the peasants wore them.

There is no need to talk about what is respected in Texas, because what about if the Prophet Jesus peace be upon him visited there?? What do you think people would do, make fun out of what he is wearing? BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY, because it shows disrespect for the Prophets!
If Jesus had been born in Texas today he would grow up wearing jeans. He most certainly would not wear robes. Men of respect here wear suits or a nice shirt and slacks. Your opinion is biased by your cultural perspective I believe.
Reply

aamirsaab
07-08-2010, 09:19 AM
If I could offer my two cents.

A) As far as dress code it depends on the situation. Shalwar and jubba for instance, are fine in warm and hot climates (i.e mostly asian countries). But not so useful in the colder climates (i.e England!) I've always been taught to do your best to fit in and blend with society; don't be too extravacant (flourescent pink flairs and a rainbow afro) nor too trampy (literally, vest and jeans) so that you don't fit in. I dress quite smartly anyway (can't help it, I'm a geek)

B) If a person follows the islamic principles, then they do tend to be good at keeping with their responsibilities. A lot of things that Islam teaches, in terms of people skills, non-muslims and society as a whole actually admire. Honesty, decency, cleanliness and so on - all are respectable qualities that no matter where you go, people resonate positively with.
Reply

h-n
07-08-2010, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by titus
I am not trolling. If you think I am trolling then report me. I was asking an extremely relevant question. You regret the decline in masculinity. I asked you to define it, which you did not do.

I ask you again, what specifically defines a man for you?

Everyone wore robes during the time of the prophets. The kings wore them and the peasants wore them.

If Jesus had been born in Texas today he would grow up wearing jeans. He most certainly would not wear robes. Men of respect here wear suits or a nice shirt and slacks. Your opinion is biased by your cultural perspective I believe.
I already have defined what is being a Man!!

Definition - one who worships Allah, remembers the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell.

2. You talked about fashion, well fashion changes over time, its not a fashion its normal clothes.

3. If Prophet Jesus peace be upon him was born today, he would NOT be wearing jeans etc. When he comes back he will NOT be wearing jeans or a suit.

4. If my opinions are biased then why did they not dress the Elves in the "Lords of the Rings" films in Jeans or shorts?? As they were copying off Muslims in gaining respect and being good people by the way that they also dress.
Reply

syed_z
07-08-2010, 11:05 AM
The Decline of Masculinity was clearly foretold as one of the Signs of the End of times, by Prophet Muhammad (saw).. when he said...

Men will dress like women and women will dress like men. Men will become like women and Women will become like men....


It was this warning which we see, where Feminist Revolution has made Women fall in to the role of man in the mainstream world, and women have become like men....

They order like men, they talk like men, they even dress with a suite and tie like men, they have hair styles like men... they they look in your eyes with no Shyness when there talk , as it never was like this before the Feminist Revolution took over....

I wouldn't say that it is Feminist Revolution only, to be blamed, but what brought that Revolution was Capitalism.. ... so such Ideologies are to be blamed for creating the disequilibrium in the mainstream societies...


Then since the Women have been forced out of their Homes and men and women mix around... the men are not loyal to their wives and neither are husband to their wives, as much flirting that takes place at work places and outside leads towards the collapse of the Family... with children suffering the MOST!
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 11:39 AM
How would you sort out the drug and alcohol problem? There was such a thing as the 'prohibition era' and that didn't work. Unfortunately, if there's a large enough demand for something there tends to be a supply. The problem is not solvable IMO.
Occupying forces send Afghan crack only to Iran


Deadly narcotics like compact heroin, crack, is only produced, under the guidance of certain Western countries in Afghanistan, for consumption in Iran, commander of the drug squad says.


... rest of the story is here...

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...tionid=3510212


Since USA and Allies invaded Afghanistan to "Save" the world... there has been increase in the Production of Drugs and Opium almost the same as much as it was eliminated by the Taliban.... YES Taliban when were ruling our Region (Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan) was safe from all kinds of drug mafias and terrorism...

Since USA came 2 Million Drug addicts have increased in Pakistan, Iran and China....


There is a way to take out Drugs... You know who took out drugs before USA came ?

The United States had sent a small team to Afghanistan in the early months
of 2001—when it was already known by both aerial reconnaissance and a
preliminary on the ground survey that the Taliban had achieved a tremendous
success in eradicating opium growing. The team was to determine how the
Taliban had accomplished this remarkable—almost miraculous—transformation.
One of them, Mr. James Callahan, reported back that they did it by
consensus of the elders connected with the mosques in almost every town and
village.102 Blair now attempts to make the world believe with sweeping statements
that the Taliban “are making a determined effort to return and using
the drugs trade as a front.”
(A Democracy that Never was , written by Abidullah Jan)


Even the little percent of Drugs or Opium production which was being used to make drugs was being done by, Northern Alliance group that ruled 15-20 percent of northern Afghanistan, which was not under Taliban and they were BACKED BY USA and Allies!!











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titus
07-08-2010, 02:26 PM
I already have defined what is being a Man!!

Definition - one who worships Allah, remembers the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell.
If that is your definition of a Man, then masculinity would have nothing at all to do with who earns money or how deep their voice is.

I want to know your definition of a Man, of masculinity, in regards to the chemicals and providing for families that you mentioned in the original post.

2. You talked about fashion, well fashion changes over time, its not a fashion its normal clothes.
It is not normal everywhere. In many places it is quite abnormal. Fashion is defined as what is the style and custom at any given time. In some parts of the world robes still are the custom. In some parts they are not.

4. If my opinions are biased then why did they not dress the Elves in the "Lords of the Rings" films in Jeans or shorts?? As they were copying off Muslims in gaining respect and being good people by the way that they also dress.
If you have watched the movies you will also see that the evil Saruman and the evil Nazgul also wore robes so robes were obviously not a sign that a person was good and deserved respect.

It is because robes are not attached to any one single time period, and are associated with times in which there was not much technology that many of the characters wear robes in that movie. That is the same reason that you see the wizards in the Harry Potter movies wearing robes (even the bad guys), because robes are often associated (in the West anyway) with a lack of technology.
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cat eyes
07-08-2010, 02:52 PM
muslim men should dress modest, i see this very less. i see more muslimahs dressing modest then muslim men and its very sad. its very clear from hadith of the prophet (saw) that he wore trousers above his ankles and encouraged the brothers of this ummah to do the same. i know that guys tend to slag each other off too so maybe thats the reason for why they don't do it

you know the reason why non muslims believe that muslimahs are oppressed in islam, they believe this because they see a married couple, the wife is wearing the nikab and the husband is wearing western clothes this is why they believe she is being forced to wear the nikab because they see the husband can wear what he wants but of course this is not true.

islam has its dress code for both muslim men and muslim women if both of them dressed like muslims i gaurante non muslims would not be saying muslim women are being forced to wear the nikab.

they will see that its a condition of both genders in islam to dress modest.
Reply

titus
07-08-2010, 03:57 PM
I think there is a lot of truth in what you say Cat Eyes.
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h-n
07-08-2010, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by titus
If that is your definition of a Man, then masculinity would have nothing at all to do with who earns money or how deep their voice is.

I want to know your definition of a Man, of masculinity, in regards to the chemicals and providing for families that you mentioned in the original post.



It is not normal everywhere. In many places it is quite abnormal. Fashion is defined as what is the style and custom at any given time. In some parts of the world robes still are the custom. In some parts they are not.



If you have watched the movies you will also see that the evil Saruman and the evil Nazgul also wore robes so robes were obviously not a sign that a person was good and deserved respect.

It is because robes are not attached to any one single time period, and are associated with times in which there was not much technology that many of the characters wear robes in that movie. That is the same reason that you see the wizards in the Harry Potter movies wearing robes (even the bad guys), because robes are often associated (in the West anyway) with a lack of technology.
I already gave my defnition of being a Man, which allows him to be masculine.

Not to go around being lewd with his wife and others.
Reply

Muslimeen
07-09-2010, 09:11 AM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
muslim men should dress modest, i see this very less. i see more muslimahs dressing modest then muslim men and its very sad. its very clear from hadith of the prophet (saw) that he wore trousers above his ankles and encouraged the brothers of this ummah to do the same. i know that guys tend to slag each other off too so maybe thats the reason for why they don't do it

you know the reason why non muslims believe that muslimahs are oppressed in islam, they believe this because they see a married couple, the wife is wearing the nikab and the husband is wearing western clothes this is why they believe she is being forced to wear the nikab because they see the husband can wear what he wants but of course this is not true.

islam has its dress code for both muslim men and muslim women if both of them dressed like muslims i gaurante non muslims would not be saying muslim women are being forced to wear the nikab.

they will see that its a condition of both genders in islam to dress modest.
Which country do you live in??

I certainly don't see that. Ofcourse there are a lot of women who dress modestly, some in full hijab etc. but many women are way off the mark. Go out to a restuarant on a Saturday night, it's nothing short of shocking. I honestly cannot distiguish between a muslim and a non muslim.

The head scarf has become something that is optional, according to Islam a women is regarded as naked if she goes into a public place with her hair uncovered. That is not all that is uncovered believe me, I sometimes think the azaab of Allah is around the corner. Yes many men are guilty of not following the sunnah etc, but atleast their aurah/satar is covered. To go to a muslim wedding and not commit Zina of the eyes, has become impossible. May allah save us. Ameen
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Salahudeen
07-09-2010, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
muslim men should dress modest, i see this very less. i see more muslimahs dressing modest then muslim men and its very sad. its very clear from hadith of the prophet (saw) that he wore trousers above his ankles and encouraged the brothers of this ummah to do the same. i know that guys tend to slag each other off too so maybe thats the reason for why they don't do it

you know the reason why non muslims believe that muslimahs are oppressed in islam, they believe this because they see a married couple, the wife is wearing the nikab and the husband is wearing western clothes this is why they believe she is being forced to wear the nikab because they see the husband can wear what he wants but of course this is not true.

islam has its dress code for both muslim men and muslim women if both of them dressed like muslims i gaurante non muslims would not be saying muslim women are being forced to wear the nikab.

they will see that its a condition of both genders in islam to dress modest.
I saw this the other day it was so funny to look at, there was a muslimah with full hijaab and abayah on and her husband was wearing a tight t shirt showing off all his muscles and he had shorts on also lol. It looked so funny. It was like seeing george bush hold hands with a niqaabi LOL

or seeing a brother with a big beard and juba on walking with a girl in mini skirt and low cut top. double standards I feel.
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S<Chowdhury
07-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Both brother Squiggle and Muslimeen are right, both muslim males and females are as bad as each other its just not specifically one gender. On another note going back to the original point of whether there is a decline of masculinity I'd definitly agree there has been a sharp change to the roles of male in the family and perhaps definitely in the west there is this need to make Women totally equal both in work and at home, personally i really don't have women working as long as there isn't obvious free mixing and the home doesnt suffer, and who's to say there is no problem with the husband taking on some of the household chores. The talk men looking presentable and a good image i agree people definitely judge on the way you dress, if i walk out on the weekends wearing a track n hoody with a hat n treds you'd think im jus a youth looking for trouble but on the weekdays if i come out of training with my uniform people assume authority funny how just a change of clothes can change a person perceptions. But going back to whether we should wear those long flowing clothes like in the arabs would be a ridiculous idea especially in cold countries i think a suit or shirt n trousers would suffice. But its definitely more how a man behaves he can look as smart as he wants, but his actions that are more important i guess......
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Salahudeen
07-09-2010, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Halcyon
whats wrong with that dress of the brother?

Isnt males awrah from navel till knees?

I think wearing a t-shirt and shorts is quite a humble dress. Compared to lets say suit.
The shorts were above his knee's barely covering his thighs and his t shirt sleeves were just over his shoulder. And he had clean shaven face like bush :) it looked funny because the lady looked like a proper muslimah covered up in islamic clothing, and the boy was dressed/groomed like .....
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tango92
07-09-2010, 04:11 PM
i think this is a good place to mention a hadith on another recent thread

"Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger Muhammad said: "Prophet Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying: 'He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.

Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled. Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying: '0 stone! Give me my garment!' till he reached a group of the children of Israel who saw him naked then and found him in the best shape of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there, and Moses took and put on his garment and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four, or five marks. This was what Allah the Almighty refers to in His saying: 0 you who believe! Be not like those who annoyed Moses, but Allah cleared him of that which they alleged, and he was honorable in Allah's sight! Surah 33: 69 "

DUPLICATE PLEASE DELETE
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616

so yh, its ok for men to work out and what not, with the intention of becoming strong. but we should remain extremely modest and shy if we wish to gain max honour in the sight of Allah swt.

on another note i feel the decline in masculinity is heavily influenced (especially in younger high school / college types) by females who are no longer in need of strong men but hunt down handsome and sensitive men instead. cause women are seeing an increasing role as providers of the family. thats why men are turning to fashion, although still trying to remain "cool" and "gangster" lol.
Reply

tango92
07-09-2010, 04:12 PM
i think this is a good place to mention a hadith on another recent thread

"Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger Muhammad said: "Prophet Moses was a shy person and used to cover his body completely because of his extensive shyness. One of the children of Israel hurt him by saying: 'He covers his body in this way only because of some defect in his skin, either leprosy or scrotal hernia, or he has some other defect.

Allah wished to clear Moses of what they said about him, so one day while Moses was in seclusion, he took his clothes and put them on a stone and started taking a bath. When he had finished the bath, he moved towards his clothes so as to take them, but the stone took his clothes and fled. Moses picked up his stick and ran after the stone saying: '0 stone! Give me my garment!' till he reached a group of the children of Israel who saw him naked then and found him in the best shape of what Allah had created, and Allah cleared him of what they had accused him of. The stone stopped there, and Moses took and put on his garment and started hitting the stone with his stick. By Allah, the stone still has some traces of the hitting, three, four, or five marks. This was what Allah the Almighty refers to in His saying: 0 you who believe! Be not like those who annoyed Moses, but Allah cleared him of that which they alleged, and he was honorable in Allah's sight! Surah 33: 69 "

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 616

so yh, its ok for men to work out and what not, with the intention of becoming strong. but we should remain extremely modest and shy if we wish to gain max honour in the sight of Allah swt.

on another note i feel the decline in masculinity is heavily influenced (especially in younger high school / college types) by females who are no longer in need of strong men but hunt down handsome and sensitive men instead. cause women are seeing an increasing role as providers of the family. thats why men are turning to fashion, although still trying to remain "cool" and "gangster" lol.
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h-n
07-10-2010, 01:44 AM
I like to add, that when Males are not being religious they become less of a Man.

It would be a nightmare in this world, if all the Males were strongly built, tall, they would go around being even more arrogantly, think to have sex with anyone, just because they are Masculine with little or no opposition etc.

Look at the sight of Males who turn their backs on Islam, the hindus look so worse, poor to call themselves Men and they worship idols.

The Males who run amock, going to nightclubs, drinking, they would behave a lot worse if they were strongly built and tall etc.

So I thank Allah, he is Mighty, Wise.
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h-n
07-10-2010, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Halcyon
I dont agree with definitions of manhood that are being thrown around here.

Manhood is about being self-dependent, an intellectual, a leader, a commander, a manager, a dreamer, and a doer.
???? So what if someone is a Manager and he goes to Hell, what is he???

A Man going to Paradise is not the same as one going to Hell.

What makes a Man, is he who worships the one God, Allah, remembers the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell. Which is what all the Prophets did, they were not accepted by people because they looked good, being intelligent etc. They were accepted as Allah's servants.

This is exactly why the women in Paradise are happy to get married to him, as well as Muslim women in this world. We don't get married to a Man because he has a flash car, and a nice house.
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Woodrow
07-10-2010, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by Halcyon
I dont agree with definitions of manhood that are being thrown around here.

Manhood is about being self-dependent, an intellectual, a leader, a commander, a manager, a dreamer, and a doer.
:sl: Akhi

Am I correct in assuming that by manager you mean it in the concept of self management. Meaning a man who plans for time for prayer, schedules his work load to keep a balance between adequate income and time with family.A well rounded person who lives a productive, quality and pious life all balanced to the levels of importance for each responsibility and duty.

Not the concept of the job title of Manager.
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Al-Indunisiy
07-10-2010, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl: Akhi

Am I correct in assuming that by manager you mean it in the concept of self management. Meaning a man who plans for time for prayer, schedules his work load to keep a balance between adequate income and time with family.A well rounded person who lives a productive, quality and pious life all balanced to the levels of importance for each responsibility and duty.

Not the concept of the job title of Manager.

I think yes, since what he listed are collectively general attributes.
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Karl
07-10-2010, 05:33 AM
Originally Posted by h-n
So is anybody else seeing a decline of Masculinity???
Yes, but I don't think it's mainly the same men becoming more effemiate, but rather more, as change in demographics. I think people are the same now as they as were, but there are shifts in representation and popularity of races. In 1950s America it was the alpha male Germanic races which were popular. The big square jawed wide shouldered hunks were very popular. Some icons would have been John Wayne, Charlton Heston, Gregory Peck, Rock Hudson, Marlon Brandow and the popularity Superman heroe figures etc. And later figures would have been Hasslehoff, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Dolph Lundgren etc. Country and Western singers such as Glen Cambell, Jim Reeves, Johny Cash etc. These were real looking men. Now it's not like that. Instead effeminate looking "men" such as Johny Depp, McCully Culken, and pop stars such as Hanson and Justin Beiber are all the rave. Why it's like that I don't know and it puzzles me why so many females melt over them. It would seem that they were lesbian or something. lol. The real looking men still ARE out there but they are off the popularity radar and effeminate races have become popular (the Romas, Semites, Indians, Latinos and many other Asian races etc). These races of course existed in the 1950s but were off the popularity scale as they were considered un-American. So yes it's not that the same family lines have become more effeminate over time but more a shift in racial demographics.

Another current trend in Hollywood is their representation of "Major" aged people (the legally imposed magic age of 18 and over) as being of more rugged rustic masculine races while their offspring or "minors" under 18 tend to be represented by effeminate looking races. It's a very wierd phenomenen of unrealistic fantasy and not of the real world, and I'm not sure why Hollywood likes to create this unrealistic and anomalous perception.
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Salahudeen
07-10-2010, 10:36 AM
Interesting points karl, I wonder how men/women would be if Hollywood/Bollywood never existed and there was no media influence in our lives.
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cat eyes
07-10-2010, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Halcyon
whats wrong with that dress of the brother?

Isnt males awrah from navel till knees?

I think wearing a t-shirt and shorts is quite a humble dress. Compared to lets say suit.
we are not meant to resemble the kafir.

Shalwer kameez will suit you fine. don't worry
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Woodrow
07-10-2010, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Halcyon
walaikum asslam,

yes bro that is what I meant. A person who manages his religious and worldly affairs with justice. A person who is good in devoting his time to duties according to their priorities.
A very necessary trait of true masculinity. The word man is included in manager. It is essential for a man to be a manager and be able to manage his manliness.
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titus
07-11-2010, 04:58 PM
What makes a Man, is he who worships the one God, Allah, remembers the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell. Which is what all the Prophets did, they were not accepted by people because they looked good, being intelligent etc. They were accepted as Allah's servants.
Then what does that have to do with chemicals or voice changes that you mentioned in your original post? I am confused as it seems you have changed your definition of masculinity.
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h-n
07-11-2010, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Then what does that have to do with chemicals or voice changes that you mentioned in your original post? I am confused as it seems you have changed your definition of masculinity.
See post 23.
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titus
07-11-2010, 06:02 PM
In post 23 you seem to insinuate that Muslim men are bigger and stronger than other religions because they are religious. Is this a correct interpretation?

In the original post you link to articles that have nothing to do with religion, but with chemicals and other such things.

You then state that your definition of a man is a Muslim.

I am trying to put the pieces together but it's not quite working. What exactly is your point, and what do the chemicals mentioned in your original post have to do with religion? And what does the size of a man have to do with his religion or the deepness of his "cool" voice?
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jimbo123
08-01-2010, 11:30 AM
I wanted to add something to do this.

I've noticed that men in this day and age, when it comes to exercise are more concerned with how muscles look as opposed to the functionality. I guess this is due to the media putting a lot of pressure on men to have 6 pack abs and massive biceps. Can't help but think that there was a time that men exercised for functionality first and and for mirror muscles second.
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Woodrow
08-07-2010, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by jimbo123
I wanted to add something to do this.

I've noticed that men in this day and age, when it comes to exercise are more concerned with how muscles look as opposed to the functionality. I guess this is due to the media putting a lot of pressure on men to have 6 pack abs and massive biceps. Can't help but think that there was a time that men exercised for functionality first and and for mirror muscles second.
:sl:

Was a time in the very recent past, there was no need for exercise programs or gyms or the like. Work took care of that and even better it developed the muscles we needed to excel in our jobs.

Just my opinion but for a man to develop unneeded muscles is a bit like teaching a gold fish to ride a bicycle. Might look nice, but what purpose does it serve?
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jimbo123
08-07-2010, 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Was a time in the very recent past, there was no need for exercise programs or gyms or the like. Work took care of that and even better it developed the muscles we needed to excel in our jobs.

Just my opinion but for a man to develop unneeded muscles is a bit like teaching a gold fish to ride a bicycle. Might look nice, but what purpose does it serve?
http://www.bakkah.net/articles/strongbeliever.htm
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Woodrow
08-07-2010, 02:14 PM
:sl:

Except that overall muscle building, especially that for appearance does not equate to greater strength. A person who works the fields is going to need greater strength in the areas of leg and back development. A person who is a laborer of metals is going to need the greatest development in the arms. A carpenter will have greater development in one arm. This does mean we ignore all muscles, but we need to concentrate on the development of those required for our task.

A person whose required strength for lifting considerable weights is going to have different muscle development than say a person whose strength is in running. To develop muscles for the sake of appearance, may result in an aesthetically pleasing body, but it may not be one of any usable strength. If you are stranded in the jungle it would be far better to have the greatest strength in the area needed for survival.

A man who has developed the muscles for prayer will have a different appearance than the man who has developed all of his muscles for the sake of appearance.

The well developed body builder makes me think the man has spent too much time on the gym mat and not enough on the prayer mat. While a man with all muscles developed may have some strength in all areas, it also send the message he has not spent the time needed to develop his needed strength to full capacity.

This concept of body building is of value only for the visual pleasure of members of the opposite gender and it is an appearance pushed on us through the media by the advertising industry. The media world is pushing sexual attraction and that comes to be the only strength the concept of body building is developing. A man all too often works out in the gym not for the purpose of attaining needed strength, but for the very same reason young girls engage in breast development exercises.

Exercise, yes. but spend the most exercise developing the needed strength and not to arouse a person of the opposite gender. Conentrate first on exercising the muscles needed for prayer, second on those needed for survival which means to excel in work, and ability to protect ones deen, family and the ummah. Forget trying to look like the Madison Avenue concept of a strong man. A strong man will often look much different.
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jimbo123
08-07-2010, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Except that overall muscle building, especially that for appearance does not equate to greater strength. A person who works the fields is going to need greater strength in the areas of leg and back development. A person who is a laborer of metals is going to need the greatest development in the arms. A carpenter will have greater development in one arm. This does mean we ignore all muscles, but we need to concentrate on the development of those required for our task.

A person whose required strength for lifting considerable weights is going to have different muscle development than say a person whose strength is in running. To develop muscles for the sake of appearance, may result in an aesthetically pleasing body, but it may not be one of any usable strength. If you are stranded in the jungle it would be far better to have the greatest strength in the area needed for survival.

A man who has developed the muscles for prayer will have a different appearance than the man who has developed all of his muscles for the sake of appearance.

The well developed body builder makes me think the man has spent too much time on the gym mat and not enough on the prayer mat. While a man with all muscles developed may have some strength in all areas, it also send the message he has not spent the time needed to develop his needed strength to full capacity.

This concept of body building is of value only for the visual pleasure of members of the opposite gender and it is an appearance pushed on us through the media by the advertising industry. The media world is pushing sexual attraction and that comes to be the only strength the concept of body building is developing. A man all too often works out in the gym not for the purpose of attaining needed strength, but for the very same reason young girls engage in breast development exercises.

Exercise, yes. but spend the most exercise developing the needed strength and not to arouse a person of the opposite gender. Conentrate first on exercising the muscles needed for prayer, second on those needed for survival which means to excel in work, and ability to protect ones deen, family and the ummah. Forget trying to look like the Madison Avenue concept of a strong man. A strong man will often look much different.
I don't know if you read my original post (#33)? I said lots of guys are into bodybuilding as opposed to building functional strength. I never said that it's the right/wrong thing to do although getting built will happen if you exercise and eat right.

On another note, who's to say you won't need that strength? If you're approached by multiple muggers, you'll need the strength to fight them off. If you're at the edge of a cliff, you'll need the back/arm development to lift yourself up. If you're in a locked room you need strong legs to kick it down. Why not improve strength in all areas?
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jimbo123
08-07-2010, 08:11 PM
This concept of body building is of value only for the visual pleasure of members of the opposite gender and it is an appearance pushed on us through the media by the advertising industry. The media world is pushing sexual attraction and that comes to be the only strength the concept of body building is developing. A man all too often works out in the gym not for the purpose of attaining needed strength, but for the very same reason young girls engage in breast development exercises.
Of course it depends on the intention and doing it to arouse the opposite gender is wrong. But I wonder... what if you are married and are doing it to arouse your partner?
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جوري
08-07-2010, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by titus
It is because robes are not attached to any one single time period, and are associated with times in which there was not much technology that many of the characters wear robes in that movie. That is the same reason that you see the wizards in the Harry Potter movies wearing robes (even the bad guys), because robes are often associated (in the West anyway) with a lack of technology.
I was in meeting on Wednesday when they introduced an orthopedic surgeon from Nigeria (Muslim) who would be spending a month with us in exchange of ideas and techniques, he was dressed like this:



no one seemed to care about his garb, but he did look to me and smiled saying, he didn't think he'd find anyone he can relate to on this new endeavor. I am not sure where you get the 'lack of technology bit' as an association with clothing.. in fact I think it is funny.. thanks for offering me a hearty guffaw!
I don't think clothing has anything to do with technology or lack thereof , primitiveness or lack thereof, smarts or lack thereof. masculinity or lack thereof..
What it is, is a personal statement that says something about who you are and how you view yourself.. it doesn't subtract from your IQ, your abilities, or your masculinity...

I don't personally define a person by their clothes, but they do leave us with an impression on the individual. I personally value someone who is covered more than one who isn't.. one who is covered will force you to view him or her for something aside from the clothes. someone who isn't has one thing to offer, at least first hand!

all the best
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Woodrow
08-07-2010, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by jimbo123;1357815I
don't know if you read my original post (#33)? I said lots of guys are into bodybuilding as opposed to building functional strength. I never said that it's the right/wrong thing to do although getting built will happen if you exercise and eat right.
:sl:

Simple answer is Yes, that is true.

Originally Posted by jimbo123;1357815I
On another note, who's to say you won't need that strength? If you're approached by multiple muggers, you'll need the strength to fight them off. If you're at the edge of a cliff, you'll need the back/arm development to lift yourself up. If you're in a locked room you need strong legs to kick it down. Why not improve strength in all areas?
In all cases it is far better a person learn to use the strength they have and not think in terms of developing the ultimate body. We need to take care of our bodies and keep them healthy, but not become worshipers of our bodies.

In nearly all instances of necessity and self protection it is the small lithe person who is the most proficient. A large, strong powerful enemy is much easier to defeat than a small framed person, who has the knowledge of fighting skills. The most powerful fighters and most capable of standing up against multiple fighters are not the large built muscular ones. It is the small fast ones who have developed muscles needed for speed and agility, not power and have knowledge in hand to hand fighting. Back in my younger days when I was somewhat obnoxious and antagonistic I looked for opportunities when I could get into a physical confrontations with multiple large, muscular assailants. I also learned that I could not defeat a small framed man who had the ability to fight. The worse beating I ever got in my life was at the hands of a man who looked so skinny he could have been considered anorexic. The fight only lasted a matter of seconds before I was knocked unconscious and then beat into a bloody mess by the little rascal.

Develop your body to it's fullest functional level, but be certain to develop more the muscles you will need most. Body building tends to concentrate more on spending equal time on each muscle group. That view point means we have less time to spend on the fullest development of the muscles we know we will need to use.
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titus
08-09-2010, 02:43 PM
In nearly all instances of necessity and self protection it is the small lithe person who is the most proficient. A large, strong powerful enemy is much easier to defeat than a small framed person, who has the knowledge of fighting skills.
If knowledge of fighting skills is equal, give me the bigger guy for the win.

There is a reason there are weight divisions in boxing and other fighting sports.
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Woodrow
08-09-2010, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by titus
If knowledge of fighting skills is equal, give me the bigger guy for the win.

There is a reason there are weight divisions in boxing and other fighting sports.
That is true providing both are engaging in the same form of fighting and both are abiding by the rules.

A large target is much easier to hit than a small target although the large target will have to be hit more times.

My stepfather who was a heavy weight Boxer often served as a sparring partner for Willie Pep a feather weight. On more than one occasion Willie inflicted serious pain upon my step father.

A small lithe fighter has the advantage of speed, agility. The large fighter has the advantage of weight and power, he can disable the small fighter with one blow. But, that blow has to connect with the target, which can prove to be difficult.

A humming bird is much smaller and much less powerful than an eagle, but a humming bird can kill an eagle and it is nearly impossible for an eagle to harm a humming bird. The eagle is a fierce and intelligent fighter, but it lacks the maneuverability of the smaller birds.

If you are a combat pilot going up against an enemy aircraft, you would much rather be in an F-86 than a gigantic powerful B-52
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titus
08-09-2010, 08:22 PM
1) Your dad sparred with Willie Pep? Wow, that's pretty cool.

2) I would still put my money on the top heavyweight of any point in time over the featherweight champion. There is a reason that most fighters have great difficulty when they move up weight classes.

3) Your dad sparred with Willie Pep.... that's still cool.
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Woodrow
08-10-2010, 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by titus
1) Your dad sparred with Willie Pep? Wow, that's pretty cool.

2) I would still put my money on the top heavyweight of any point in time over the featherweight champion. There is a reason that most fighters have great difficulty when they move up weight classes.

3) Your dad sparred with Willie Pep.... that's still cool.
:sl:

My step Dad had aspirations of going places in Boxing. But, he ended up as a Tool$Die designer and anyhow it turned out he was better at that. However, he kept boxing as an avocation and lived close enough to NYC and Hartford and Willie was often at both, he went to work part time for Willie as a sparring partner when ever willie was in the area. They got to be pretty good friends. I watched Willie box quite often but can not say I ever got to know him. I was just a young kid about 5 the first time I saw him box. Just a touch of trivia Willie started boxing pro when I was 5 days old. He was 18 years old at the time. Willie was quite fast, almost impossible for anybody to hit him that is what got him the nickname "Will O' the Wisp"

My step dad was quite big 6'3 and nearly 300 pounds. Very solid build. To look at the two you would say Willie would not have a chance. If my step dad ever got to connect a punch Willie would have been sent into the middle of next year. I don't think my step dad ever got in a solid punch, but willie would get in about a dozen before my step dad could blink. My step dad once told me that getting hit by Willie at first seemed like a mosquito bite, but the little rascal was so fast and could get in so many hits that they soon felt like being hit with a hammer.

Now to relate this back to the topic. My step Dad had a body builders shape, but all the muscles were not functional. Willie did not have what you could call a body builder, but he had vert well leg and arm muscles which are what he needed. It is hard to say which of the two men was the most Masculine. Neither was Muslim, so can't use that for comparing one to the other. Perhaps they both lacked in true Masculinity as neither was what one could call pious. However Willie was quite devout as a Catholic.
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h-n
08-10-2010, 02:16 AM
Actors show to people their looks, promote how they can treat females ie buying them gifts etc.

Even Prophet Joseph peace be upon him did not want to end up being stupid, as Males can behave when getting attention from females.

There are lies, for example if an Actor, footballer did not have money, then would they have lots of females wanting to be with them??? No. So do they really like that person for who he is? No? If there was lets say the same female who liked an Actor and she talks about his looks etc, and then what about if the same person did not become and actor, but worked nearby in a meat factory, would this female still like him so much?

The Prophets were good-looking, well-mannered, but people did not like them because of this, of course even people rejected them because they taught people to be good. We did not listen to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him because he was going to give us presents.

There are I can see, people have the habit of using Males who are not religious as an example of being a Man.

Well I would ask who is better then;-

Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him?
Prophet Jesus peace be upon him?
Prophet Noah peace be upon him?
Prophet Moses peace be upon him?
Prophet Lut peace be upon him?
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him?

So we start by looking at the Prophets first, not a singer, actor etc. The Prophets were the best of Men. So makes sense to start using them as examples.

Man = one who worships Allah, remembers the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell.

There has never been any other defintion of being a Man, in worshipping Allah, and he has created us to worship him. The definitions that people use are society ones, wereby they look at being acceptable to others, to gain attention from others. That is poor, as of course in Islam no one can open the gates of Paradise for you, so if you spent 10 years showing off to a group of people, when they cannot help you on the Day of Judgement, then what is they point of showing off to them, when you will not care about them and they neither of you? Of course there is not.
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