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Ummu Sufyaan
07-08-2010, 02:50 AM
Inspired by this thread

Originally Posted by Lynx
Women working is exploitation?!
In some cases it is. i can’t stand those work environments (or environments in general) where women and men mix, and women are deceived to believe that her Independence is via this means, whilst ill minded men look and flirt with her and she’s just brainwashed to believe that its “all in good fun” and sits there enjoying it actually believing that he has good intentions. It if we are all for equality, and that’s what the man’s gets from her, what is he giving back to her?

It’s called sublimity ladies imsad it is a term used by psychologists to describe a situation where, due to a certain thing being morally unacceptable, one finds/refers to a more morally acceptable means to express it. I don’t think women would find being flirted with and treated like that fun, if it wasn’t for the “funny” and clever way the male shows it.

Btw I don’t have a problem with women working, however it’s this guise of independence and the likes, but in reality she is really being exploited-this is what this rant is about.
Oh and I also despise males who insist women stay home because they can’t control themselves-also very dislikeable.

its really funny how some people go around and accuse women in Islam as being enslaved to their husband yet advocate that women work despite the fact that 8/10 times, her boss (i.e someone in authority over here) is most likely to be a male. reeks of hypocrisy.

this is what i like about Islam because it is known what males are like and take zero responsibly and care for her, but in the case of marriage where he is ordered to financially provide for her (that is one of her rights over him), it allows for respect for her.

i find it interesting in Islam how the wealth is the husbands responsibility and find myself wondering if the reason for that is because for the most part, you don’t really care or know the true worth of something until and unless you spend your wealth on it. just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by Lynx
Well I am not sure why it's exploitation when a woman has to work to pay the mortgage. If she does not want to work (and she is free not to work) then she can just buy a cheaper house. Women (and all people in general) voluntarily trade their time for extra money in order to have a life that they want to. Asking the state to provide for women at home will have consequences (if this is what you're suggesting).
the man is the hunter gather.

Moreover, there are plenty of women who work because they enjoy their careers and this is definitely not exploitation in any sense of the word.
true that and i don’t believe there is anything wrong with women working- the only real problem i have is the deception of independence where it leads men to disrespect her and be negligent of their own responsibly (of hunting and gathering) that i can’t stand, as i said.
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CosmicPathos
07-08-2010, 03:29 AM
Since circumstances have changed and societies have evolved and ideas have emerged according to which men who stop women from working outside are despised and since women can earn, maybe scholars can do qiyas and determine that husbands dont really have to provide finances to their wives anymore. I know the Quranic verse says that men are providers of their wives but this can mean they provide anything. Now let the husbands just provide love, time and intimate words, and not money, since women can go outside and work for their own selves. After all its hard for men to buy everything that they desire in this economy (that watch, that car, that gadget, that toy, that cologne, that suit), then throw the responsibility of another human being if he is to get married. Just a passing thought.
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Lynx
07-08-2010, 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
Inspired by this thread


In some cases it is. i can’t stand those work environments (or environments in general) where women and men mix, and women are deceived to believe that her Independence is via this means, whilst ill minded men look and flirt with her and she’s just brainwashed to believe that its “all in good fun” and sits there enjoying it actually believing that he has good intentions. It if we are all for equality, and that’s what the man’s gets from her, what is he giving back to her?

It’s called sublimity ladies imsad it is a term used by psychologists to describe a situation where, due to a certain thing being morally unacceptable, one finds/refers to a more morally acceptable means to express it. I don’t think women would find being flirted with and treated like that fun, if it wasn’t for the “funny” and clever way the male shows it.
I understand what you're trying to say and there's no doubt that in a lot of cases women are exploited by their bosses or co-workers. I don't think that *just because* a woman goes to work is exploitation which was the comment I was responding to in the previous thread. However, I don't think flirting is exploiting. People flirt when they work in a mixed environment and you can think that it's immoral but I don't see how flirting is exploitation unless you have a case where a woman is being sexually harassed.

Btw I don’t have a problem with women working, however it’s this guise of independence and the likes, but in reality she is really being exploited-this is what this rant is about.
Oh and I also despise males who insist women stay home because they can’t control themselves-also very dislikeable.
Well I suppose you're overgeneralizing on purpose to illustrate your feelings towards the topic. Not all women are exploited & having the right to be able to pursue any career a woman wants to is necessary for her independence but not sufficient.

its really funny how some people go around and accuse women in Islam as being enslaved to their husband yet advocate that women work despite the fact that 8/10 times, her boss (i.e someone in authority over here) is most likely to be a male. reeks of hypocrisy.
When people say women are enslaved to their husbands I think they are generally talking about places where women have little to no rights like tribal regions of Pakistan, Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran, etc. where women can be killed or beaten for the smallest things and where women cannot freely get rid of their husbands. In the case of working for a man, people voluntarily exchange their time & labour for money. There's no such thing as a slave to a boss. The comparison is not quite accurate!

i find it interesting in Islam how the wealth is the husbands responsibility and find myself wondering if the reason for that is because for the most part, you don’t really care or know the true worth of something until and unless you spend your wealth on it. just my 2 cents
sadly i don't think this is the case in many parts of the world.

the man is the hunter gather.
i am not sure what this has to do with the section of my comments you quoted.
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noorseeker
07-08-2010, 06:19 AM
Most western women have to work, they dont know any different ,

a lot of muslim women knowing that they dont have to work, die to work,

Ok i got nieces and that, i wonder if they today gave up their studies and just sat at home, will their parents be happy. I think not.

Its like nowadays muslim women in the west have to work,
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titus
07-08-2010, 06:25 AM
the man is the hunter gather.
In the modern world, though, there is no need for a hunter gatherer. Nobody has to hunt their food anymore unless they want to, and women can do 90% of jobs in the world as well as any man. There are some jobs better suited for men, and some for women, but most can be accomplished equally well by either sex.
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aamirsaab
07-08-2010, 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by titus
In the modern world, though, there is no need for a hunter gatherer. Nobody has to hunt their food anymore unless they want to, and women can do 90% of jobs in the world as well as any man. There are some jobs better suited for men, and some for women, but most can be accomplished equally well by either sex.
Whilst this is true, the female still remains the only one that can give birth.

I'm going to get flamed.
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 11:19 AM
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1346135

i posted in the previous thread... Salaam


Originally Posted by Lynx
Well I am not sure why it's exploitation when a woman has to work to pay the mortgage. If she does not want to work (and she is free not to work) then she can just buy a cheaper house. Women (and all people in general) voluntarily trade their time for extra money in order to have a life that they want to. Asking the state to provide for women at home will have consequences (if this is what you're suggesting). Moreover, there are plenty of women who work because they enjoy their careers and this is definitely not exploitation in any sense of the word.
The family system in the Western World has collapsed because of Women being taken out of the House to work. and as you said they "enjoy" lets see how dangerous such enjoyment can be... just to let you know that majority of women do NOT enjoy working....

The mortgage your referring to brother is not right in the 1st place... how ? Because the House that women and men and families buy on Loans of hundreds and thousands of dollars, while not having that amount with them at that time, keeps them in Slavery and Debt for years and years.... rather if they are not able to pay some payments, they are taken out of their Houses in which they have lived and also the collateral which the bank keeps SEIZES as well.... so buying an expensive House which is unaffordable in the 1st place and becoming a slave to a bank, is NOT the right way to go about in ones life in the 1st place, whether man or woman..... this is how banks take advantage over you, all they do is issue a Loan and sit and relax and your work your whole life trying to pay for something for which there is NO guarantee that you would own it after 20 or 25 years.... and so Women have been FORCED by expensive loans and buying things on Credit which has made their Husbands income not sufficient and so they have to get out of the House and Work...

2nd Point. ... Capitalism which gave birth to Industrialization, has increased Production at a MASSIVE rate like never before in the World. The manufacturing is booming and never stops and people because of Capitalism, are able to buy those things which they could not afford before, JUST Because they have a Credit card with amount of money... and once they do purchases, they keep making payments for something which they don't own..... such Massive production made Capitalists want more population to work and so in this case also , females were brought OUT of the houses while leaving their Children in the hands of others... and nowadays, since the feminist revolution, its Baby Sitters....


Do you really think that a Baby Sitter or a Child Day care Facility will take care of the Child or have feelings for the CHild like his/her mother would have for them ?!?


The Child day cares and Baby sitters cannot do the Job of a Mother.... they have too many of their OWN problems to think of... and it is because of this that family system is being taken apart... thanks to Feminist Revolution... women are being told ... "you are just like men".... while women without understanding , with no one to guide accept whatever they are told and follow whatever comes their way.... thinking its Freedom ! while actually they are being Lured in to work force, while the women are NOT to be burdened by work as, the nature of Man is to work and women are the weaker sex (biologically proven as well) and they are to be Protected! thats the Message of Islam for Family system...


Ponder over this article and this Might help understand what i am saying....

Most British women bored with their lives

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wo...eir-lives.html

if you try readiing the article of just one City in Europe where women are forced to work... and i call it forced because having Expensive loans and not being able to pay for them or the husbands cheating and leaving them and government not supporting them, or their kids becoming 18 or 19 and leaving them alone and then they have to carry their own burden, makes them choose professions and leave their homes which they would NOT have if they were given the Option! ... so this article clearly shows how Women are being torn apart in their Lives... the Exploitation which takes place of the women, is NOT only by making them bare their skin in the Public, but also because of this... read how women are going through because of the Problems and pressure due to work...


"Elaine Smith, marketing manager for Florette Fruit, which surveyed 3,000 women said: "Women today are so busy trying to have it all - the job, the family, the social life - that somehow we've ended up with nothing.


Four in ten said they hated their job while another four out of ten said they would be happier with life if they could take more holidays.

"A huge part of that interference is a 'but', whether it's 'I wish I could say yes to that invite, but I don't have the energy' or 'I wish I could relax but I need to get this done.'



...
Islam on the other hand CLEARLY mentions the Role of a woman and makes it clear to the Men, that NOT to make women or force them to work, rather take care of them and if their families are not able enough to take care of them, that is the single females, then the Government issues a monthly stipend for them so that they are not exploited ....


"And they (women) have rights Similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a Degree above them." (Al Quran 2:228)


The word... 'Degree' ... many hostile critics of Islam , point that means "Superiority" of man over woman.... NO ... rather this Degree means Maintenance and Protection! The natural difference in between the Sexes makes the stronger sex protect and take care of the weaker sex. It implies no superiority! Niether does it mean dictatorship by man over woman.... rather the Quran elsehwhere clearly mentions that both are required to make decisions pertaining to family matters....


So just clearing the Islamic Point of View as compared to Western Secular way of Dealing with Women.... and so i agree with Sister H-N that women are being exploited in many ways in the Western world in the name of ..."freedom"..
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Asiyah3
07-08-2010, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx
I understand what you're trying to say and there's no doubt that in a lot of cases women are exploited by their bosses or co-workers. I don't think that *just because* a woman goes to work is exploitation which was the comment I was responding to in the previous thread. However, I don't think flirting is exploiting. People flirt when they work in a mixed environment and you can think that it's immoral but I don't see how flirting is exploitation unless you have a case where a woman is being sexually harassed.
Peace Lynx,

Is there anything you find immoral excluding an act that harms someone?
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aadil77
07-08-2010, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by **muslimah**
Peace Lynx,

Is there anything you find immoral excluding an act that harms someone?
Atheists do not find anything immoral unless it physically harms someone
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titus
07-08-2010, 04:02 PM
Whilst this is true, the female still remains the only one that can give birth.

I'm going to get flamed.
But only men can.... ummm...

There has to be something....

Write their name in the snow?
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Latitudinarian
07-08-2010, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Atheists do not find anything immoral unless it physically harms someone
While I may be a deist, I am affectively an agnostic/atheist because I don't subscribe to a religion. I disagree with your statement and, given my outlook, my opinion holds more weight when it comes to views of atheists. Speaking for myself and several atheists that I know, I've never heard an atheist qualify immorality as strictly physical harm.
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aadil77
07-08-2010, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
While I may be a deist, I am affectively an agnostic/atheist because I don't subscribe to a religion. I disagree with your statement and, given my outlook, my opinion holds more weight when it comes to views of atheists. Speaking for myself and several atheists that I know, I've never heard an atheist qualify immorality as strictly physical harm.
Well I have and they're on this forum. All I ever hear from atheists commenting on immoral things is: 'It doesn't hurt anyone so I do see any problem'
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
While I may be a deist, I am affectively an agnostic/atheist because I don't subscribe to a religion. I disagree with your statement and, given my outlook, my opinion holds more weight when it comes to views of atheists. Speaking for myself and several atheists that I know, I've never heard an atheist qualify immorality as strictly physical harm.

Since us Muslims we use Divine Revelation to guide us towards what Halaal (legal) whats Haraam (Illegal) and so we use it as our Criteria to determine what is Immorality... and how to save one from Immorality and how to do things Morally and how to act Morally and also whats Modesty (haya)... it is all defined for us... as we Humans , our minds are not equipped to determine what is Right and What is Wrong , what is the definition of what is right and what is wrong...in atheism how do you determine ?

Because every time mankind has used their own Head to determine, has come up with a Ideology or an 'Ism' which has lead to more problems...
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Latitudinarian
07-08-2010, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Well I have and they're on this forum. All I ever hear from atheists commenting on immoral things is: 'It doesn't hurt anyone so I do see any problem'
When an atheist says "do no harm to others", he/she means don't do harm to others of either a physical, psychological, economical, or any other nature - it isn't just about physical harm. A crime like murder is clearly physical harm among other things, a crime like theft is clearly economic harm among other things, slander would be psychological harm, etc. When the term harm is defined this way, I agree that most atheists hold such a view.

I personally take this idea further than most atheists to also mean "do no harm to yourself". By that, I mean it's morally wrong for someone to do something that will harm him/herself either physically, psychologically, economically or otherwise. In addition to their adverse social effects, I say that drug and alcohol abuse, suicide, immodesty, spending beyond means, ignorance, poor diet, lack of personal hygiene and many other things are wrong by the harmful effects to oneself.
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Latitudinarian
07-08-2010, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by syed_z
Since us Muslims we use Divine Revelation to guide us towards what Halaal (legal) whats Haraam (Illegal) and so we use it as our Criteria to determine what is Immorality... and how to save one from Immorality and how to do things Morally and how to act Morally and also whats Modesty (haya)... it is all defined for us... as we Humans , our minds are not equipped to determine what is Right and What is Wrong , what is the definition of what is right and what is wrong...in atheism how do you determine ?
Atheism is not a religion nor a system of ethics, it's merely the lack of belief in God and religion. There is no prescribed atheistic definition of right and wrong. Many atheists adhere to moral systems, prescribed via some ideology, but there is no one morality intrinsically linked to atheism. Nevertheless, there seems to be an agreement among many such people that, if there were some universal doctrine of morality, it would at it's heart prescribe the golden rule.
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
Atheism is not a religion nor a system of ethics, it's merely the lack of belief in God and religion. There is no prescribed atheistic definition of right and wrong. Many atheists adhere to moral systems, prescribed via some ideology, but there is no one morality intrinsically linked to atheism. Nevertheless, there seems to be an agreement among many such people that, if there were some universal doctrine of morality, it would at it's heart prescribe the golden rule.
Thats surprising why would you follow such a Concept in which you have to go looking and search in each and every Ideology to find solutions for different problems of yours.... so in my example in Islam... there are laws pertaining to business dealings as well as taking care of my mother, how to deal in regards to Marital issues as well as how to distribute Property if i am about to die....for me its ALL in ONE... and even if you do find solutions to the problems of your life in different ideologies, then are you sure that one might not Conflict with the other ?? and if yes then what makes you so sure that one ideologies concept might not conflict with the other ?

In Islam everything is in Harmony with One another, rights of your Wife, do not conflict with the Rights of Your parents...


And example...

Islam teaches me to deal with justice when it comes to dealing with peoples money, and give them their due share and be honest, and if you owe someone, you have to pay them even after your death, and that is tell your children or brothers/sisters/parents to pay from your share , if you know you wont be able to pay in your life time.... and so there is a way of dealing with all situations concerning ones life... and why would i care to pay that person off ? Because i will be held on the Day of Judgment for any money i owed to any one in this World...because of My Fear of Allah that person can get the money who might be waiting for me to give him, so may be he could get a debt payment paid or get his treatment in Hospital for some illness he had and was not able to pay.... so just because of Fear of Allah led me not only observe Justice but also help and care other person even though i am leaving the world....

Nevertheless, there seems to be an agreement among many such people that, if there were some universal doctrine of morality, it would at it's heart prescribe the golden rule
There exists a Doctrine of Morality, a Universal one for all mankind...... just one thing i would like you to look in to...

When did all the Human Rights which are spoken of in Conferences of United Nations, when were such Human Rights ever given in the History of Man kind... or where did the World suddenly come up with such Rights and Laws regarding , Men, Women, and Children ? If you dwelve deeply, you WONT find ANY Pre-Islamic Civilization giving such Rights.... all of those came to the view of the World after the Coming up of Islamic Civilization... and West of today, did NOT learn any thing about rights and laws untill Constantinople fell to Muslims .... and Cordoba Spain was taken over and Muslims were expelled forced in to accepting Christianity AND all their Books regarding knowledge on all subjects, which numbered in Thousands were seized by King Ferdinand and Isabella.....

So search and you'll find out whether if there is any Universal Moral Law on Earth ...
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Latitudinarian
07-08-2010, 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by syed_z
even if you do find solutions to the problems of your life in different ideologies, then are you sure that one might not Conflict with the other ?? and if yes then what makes you so sure that one ideologies concept might not conflict with the other ?
Since Atheism, Agnostism and Deism are quite different from systematic ideologies, it sometimes doesn't make sense to refer to these non-religious people by such terms, especially when discussing values. Many non-believers would refer to their moral system as Humanism or Secular Humanism although those ideologies aren't just for non-believers. Of course, there are other atheists who subscribe to Communism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Christian values, Hindu values or even Islamic values. I'd expect that most would stick to one ideology, but I'd also expect there to be a lot of overlap between systems just as there is in religion.

Yes, Islam is a complete system, not only for ethics but for all areas of society and life. It's great that you can embrace the whole package, no questions asked. While this system may indeed be the most wonderful and consistent thing on earth, the fact remains, non-believers are unlikely to pick it up if they are also expected to believe the theology.

and why would i care to pay that person off ? Because i will be held on the Day of Judgment for any money i owed to any one in this World...because of My Fear of Allah that person can get the money who might be waiting for me to give him, so may be he could get a debt payment paid or get his treatment in Hospital for some illness he had and was not able to pay.... so just because of Fear of Allah led me not only observe Justice but also help and care other person even though i am leaving the world....
For the most part, I think I agree with what Islam considers moral or immoral. Other non-believers may think otherwise so I can only speak for myself. I guess one difference between a Muslim and a non-believer is that a Muslim is motivated by the fear of God while a deist like me is motivated by the desire to be content in this life. Acting with integrity tends to make you happier than acting immorally. Do you know any truly happy people who lie, cheat and plunder?

When did all the Human Rights which are spoken of in Conferences of United Nations, when were such Human Rights ever given in the History of Man kind... or where did the World suddenly come up with such Rights and Laws regarding , Men, Women, and Children ? If you dwelve deeply, you WONT find ANY Pre-Islamic Civilization giving such Rights.... all of those came to the view of the World after the Coming up of Islamic Civilization... and West of today, did NOT learn any thing about rights and laws untill Constantinople fell to Muslims .... and Cordoba Spain was taken over and Muslims were expelled forced in to accepting Christianity AND all their Books regarding knowledge on all subjects, which numbered in Thousands were seized by King Ferdinand and Isabella.....
I'll have to catch up on my history reading but I am aware that your Prophet's society was one of the first (if not the first) socialist state. The Islamic empires of old were very progressive societies compared to the rest of the world at that time.
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Junon
07-08-2010, 09:49 PM
Salaam

Atheism is not a religion nor a system of ethics, it's merely the lack of belief in God and religion.
Just a quick digression, this defintion has come up time and time again on this forum (and many others) but its open to question.

Heres an answer to this question from a Christian perspective, Im not sure what the Islamic position is.

Subject: Definition of Atheism

In my discussions with atheists, they are using the term that they "lack belief in God". They claim that this is different from not believing in God or from saying that God does not exist. I'm not sure how to respond to this. It seems to me that its a silly word-play and is logically the same as saying that you do not believe in God.

What would be a good response to this?

Thank you for your time,

Steven

Dr. Craig responds:

Your atheist friends are right that there is an important logical difference between believing that there is no God and not believing that there is a God. Compare my saying , “I believe that there is no gold on Mars” with my saying “I do not believe that there is gold on Mars.” If I have no opinion on the matter, then I do not believe that there is gold on Mars, and I do not believe that there is no gold on Mars. There’s a difference between saying, “I do not believe (p)” and “I believe (not-p).” Logically where you place the negation makes a world of difference.

But where your atheist friends err is in claiming that atheism involves only not believing that there is a God rather than believing that there is no God.

There’s a history behind this. Certain atheists in the mid-twentieth century were promoting the so-called “presumption of atheism.” At face value, this would appear to be the claim that in the absence of evidence for the existence of God, we should presume that God does not exist. Atheism is a sort of default position, and the theist bears a special burden of proof with regard to his belief that God exists.

So understood, such an alleged presumption is clearly mistaken. For the assertion that “There is no God” is just as much a claim to knowledge as is the assertion that “There is a God.” Therefore, the former assertion requires justification just as the latter does. It is the agnostic who makes no knowledge claim at all with respect to God’s existence. He confesses that he doesn’t know whether there is a God or whether there is no God.

But when you look more closely at how protagonists of the presumption of atheism used the term “atheist,” you discover that they were defining the word in a non-standard way, synonymous with “non-theist." So understood the term would encompass agnostics and traditional atheists, along with those who think the question meaningless (verificationists). As Antony Flew confesses,

the word ‘atheist’ has in the present context to be construed in an unusual way. Nowadays it is normally taken to mean someone who explicitly denies the existence . . . of God . . . But here it has to be understood not positively but negatively, with the originally Greek prefix ‘a-’ being read in this same way in ‘atheist’ as it customarily is in . . . words as ‘amoral’ . . . . In this interpretation an atheist becomes not someone who positively asserts the non-existence of God, but someone who is simply not a theist. (A Companion to Philosophy of Religion, ed. Philip Quinn and Charles Taliaferro [Oxford: Blackwell, 1997], s.v. “The Presumption of Atheism,” by Antony Flew)
Such a re-definition of the word “atheist” trivializes the claim of the presumption of atheism, for on this definition, atheism ceases to be a view. It is merely a psychological state which is shared by people who hold various views or no view at all. On this re-definition, even babies, who hold no opinion at all on the matter, count as atheists! In fact, our cat Muff counts as an atheist on this definition, since she has (to my knowledge) no belief in God.

One would still require justification in order to know either that God exists or that He does not exist, which is the question we’re really interested in.

So why, you might wonder, would atheists be anxious to so trivialize their position? Here I agree with you that a deceptive game is being played by many atheists. If atheism is taken to be a view, namely the view that there is no God, then atheists must shoulder their share of the burden of proof to support this view. But many atheists admit freely that they cannot sustain such a burden of proof. So they try to shirk their epistemic responsibility by re-defining atheism so that it is no longer a view but just a psychological condition which as such makes no assertions. They are really closet agnostics who want to claim the mantle of atheism without shouldering its responsibilities.

This is disingenuous and still leaves us asking, “So is there a God or not?”

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/...rticle&id=5631

Again sorry for the (hopefully) slight derail :phew
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Latitudinarian
07-09-2010, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

Just a quick digression, this defintion has come up time and time again on this forum (and many others) but its open to question.

Heres an answer to this question from a Christian perspective, Im not sure what the Islamic position is.

...

Again sorry for the (hopefully) slight derail :phew
Salaam Junon,

Bill Craig is such a clever wordsmith. I've always enjoyed his God discussions but as soon as he gets into Jesus, I start rolling my eyes. Unlike atheists, I actually believe in God but I identify with atheists with respect to religion. I think it's the New Atheist, Richard Dawkins, who invented a seven-step scale of beliefs where:

  1. Means you know that God exists
  2. Means you think it's highly likely that God exists
  3. Means you are not sure but leaning towards the belief in God
  4. Means you are torn on the issue of whether God exists
  5. Means you are not sure but leaning towards believing God doesn't exist
  6. Means you think it's highly likely that God doesn't exist
  7. Means you know that God doesn't exist

Dawkins, one of the most staunch of atheists, says he's a 6.5 on that scale. Even he contents that it would be foolish to assume the dogma of 7. Typical atheists are probably at around 5 or 6. Now, you might prefer to call them agnostic because they aren't completely certain of no God but, if you wanted to do that, then you may as well say that those at 2 and 3 are agnostic too by virtue of their lack of complete certainty that God exists. 4 would be a true agnostic but generally there are theistic-leaning agnostics and atheistic-leaning agnostics.
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Lynx
07-09-2010, 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by syed_z
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1346135

i posted in the previous thread... Salaam



The family system in the Western World has collapsed because of Women being taken out of the House to work. and as you said they "enjoy" lets see how dangerous such enjoyment can be... just to let you know that majority of women do NOT enjoy working....
I don't think most men enjoy working either but some men do and some women do as well and they should be able to pursue this enjoyment.
The mortgage your referring to brother is not right in the 1st place... how ? Because the House that women and men and families buy on Loans of hundreds and thousands of dollars, while not having that amount with them at that time, keeps them in Slavery and Debt for years and years.... rather if they are not able to pay some payments, they are taken out of their Houses in which they have lived and also the collateral which the bank keeps SEIZES as well.... so buying an expensive House which is unaffordable in the 1st place and becoming a slave to a bank, is NOT the right way to go about in ones life in the 1st place, whether man or woman..... this is how banks take advantage over you, all they do is issue a Loan and sit and relax and your work your whole life trying to pay for something for which there is NO guarantee that you would own it after 20 or 25 years.... and so Women have been FORCED by expensive loans and buying things on Credit which has made their Husbands income not sufficient and so they have to get out of the House and Work...
slavery is when you are forced against your will to work or serve someone for no compensation. when a couple of a woman or a man buys a house he/she willingly trades their money for the house. They know that they won't be able to pay off the house right away but they voluntarily step into the credit cycle because the added interest + the principle is less than their expected marginal benefit (i.e., enjoying the house). There's no slavery when the market is free and people choose what to buy or not buy. if they don't want to be paying off a bill for years then they can rent until they save up enough to buy all at once or buy a cheap house that won't require them to pay their debt off. and i don't see anything wrong with claiming a house in which the would-be owners failed to pay their debt.

2nd Point. ... Capitalism which gave birth to Industrialization, has increased Production at a MASSIVE rate like never before in the World. The manufacturing is booming and never stops and people because of Capitalism, are able to buy those things which they could not afford before, JUST Because they have a Credit card with amount of money... and once they do purchases, they keep making payments for something which they don't own..... such Massive production made Capitalists want more population to work and so in this case also , females were brought OUT of the houses while leaving their Children in the hands of others... and nowadays, since the feminist revolution, its Baby Sitters....
yes you're right capitalism is the most successful economic model ever. it skyrocketed productivity which skyrocketed living standards. capitalism is great.

Do you really think that a Baby Sitter or a Child Day care Facility will take care of the Child or have feelings for the CHild like his/her mother would have for them ?!?
i don't know what you're talking about. parents who work can raise their kids just fine.

The Child day cares and Baby sitters cannot do the Job of a Mother.... they have too many of their OWN problems to think of... and it is because of this that family system is being taken apart... thanks to Feminist Revolution... women are being told ... "you are just like men".... while women without understanding , with no one to guide accept whatever they are told and follow whatever comes their way.... thinking its Freedom ! while actually they are being Lured in to work force, while the women are NOT to be burdened by work as, the nature of Man is to work and women are the weaker sex (biologically proven as well) and they are to be Protected! thats the Message of Islam for Family system...
the first part of what you say requires citations from sociological studies. the part about women being weaker and therefore should not work is a bit weird; what type of strength do women need to work? they aren't lifting weights at work...women seem to do just fine. maybe you should make more women friends?!

Ponder over this article and this Might help understand what i am saying....

Most British women bored with their lives

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/wo...eir-lives.html

if you try readiing the article of just one City in Europe where women are forced to work... and i call it forced because having Expensive loans and not being able to pay for them or the husbands cheating and leaving them and government not supporting them, or their kids becoming 18 or 19 and leaving them alone and then they have to carry their own burden, makes them choose professions and leave their homes which they would NOT have if they were given the Option! ... so this article clearly shows how Women are being torn apart in their Lives... the Exploitation which takes place of the women, is NOT only by making them bare their skin in the Public, but also because of this... read how women are going through because of the Problems and pressure due to work...


"Elaine Smith, marketing manager for Florette Fruit, which surveyed 3,000 women said: "Women today are so busy trying to have it all - the job, the family, the social life - that somehow we've ended up with nothing.


Four in ten said they hated their job while another four out of ten said they would be happier with life if they could take more holidays.

"A huge part of that interference is a 'but', whether it's 'I wish I could say yes to that invite, but I don't have the energy' or 'I wish I could relax but I need to get this done.'



The article is talking about women who are bored in their daily routines. i think you should re-read the article as it doesn't really support your position. i am pretty sure if those women were all house wives they'd still be bored..look at the last paragraph where it shows the top 10s!

...
Islam on the other hand CLEARLY mentions the Role of a woman and makes it clear to the Men, that NOT to make women or force them to work, rather take care of them and if their families are not able enough to take care of them, that is the single females, then the Government issues a monthly stipend for them so that they are not exploited ....
sending government checks to people has its problems otherwise welfare would not be such a disputed topic. anyway, i agree no woman should be forced to work and thankfully in the capitalist economies no woman is forced to work. its her choice to live in whatever conditions she wants to live. there's scarcity and you can't give everyone everything they want-there has to be a cost. exploitation is a marxist myth; it simply doesn't happen :)
Reply

Lynx
07-09-2010, 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by **muslimah**
Peace Lynx,

Is there anything you find immoral excluding an act that harms someone?
Hello,
Yes there are plenty of things I find immoral that don't harm anyone (and that are in fact pleasurable in some cases). In the section you are quoting I was merely pointing out the difference between immoral and exploitation. Something immoral need not be exploitative.

Atheists do not find anything immoral unless it physically harms someone
You have the strangest viewpoints!
Actually, I am not an atheist. And, so you don't embarrass yourself when talking to people who know something about the world: the only thing atheists necessarily have in common is not believing in God. Now, given that, there are multitudes of philosophies and lifestyles that atheists enjoy. The dominant two non religious ethical theories are consequentalism (an act is wrong if and only if the consequences of the act are bad & this is what you are referring to) & duty based ethics (things are wrong in themselves; i.e., it is always wrong to lie no matter who gets hurt because the act of lying is simply bad).
Perhaps you should get out more and talk to more people.
Reply

syed_z
07-09-2010, 03:05 PM
slavery is when you are forced against your will to work or serve someone for no compensation. when a couple of a woman or a man buys a house he/she willingly trades their money for the house. They know that they won't be able to pay off the house right away but they voluntarily step into the credit cycle because the added interest + the principle is less than their expected marginal benefit (i.e., enjoying the house). There's no slavery when the market is free and people choose what to buy or not buy.
Burdening One with more than he/she is able to bear.... a condition of hard work is also defined as Slavery... Some form of work or production in which the person constitutes the Principal work force while the other just sits and does nothing, and lives off your sweat is Unjust!

That is Why Leo Tolstoy a Russian writer, said about Banking (Which is the base on which Capitalism stands)... “Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal – that there is no human relation between master and slave.”

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/

If one person (Banker) just signs a paper and holds on to your precious things as collateral, and are able to seize it any moment if you were to loose a job or not able to make payments for the mortgaged house due to any reasons, and for that you have to work, NOT only to pay the principal amount but hefty Interest on top of it, while the person who signs just sits and does NOTHING!.... thats Exploitation! i don't know what is your definition of exploitation but that certainly is Unjust!

The addiction to accumulate wealth by the banking system, is whats leading the banking industry cross limits, in which the Profit Oriented minds that they have, they forget to think for any one , rather they think for no one but themselves.... it is the Hefty Interest amounts which they see and nothing Else!

Neither are they able to give you time, and also the law helps them not only in seizing the collateral and bringing you on the street, but also they might take you to court... that is just Unjust... and top of that your wife might have to get out of the house to work and help you pay for it... is crazy...may be it hasnt happened to you or your just fine with it, because every one has just accepted such way of life...



Well in that case lets see what Islam tells us in regards to dealing with Loans and how to deal with such people if they are NOT able to pay....and these Verses Particularly talk about Interest (Riba) and its evils...

.......Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time until it is easy for him to repay. But if you remit it (i.e., if you write off the debt) by way of charity, that will be best for you, if you only knew.....
(2:278-281)

grant him time, DONT take him to court and humiliate him! and if his wife needs to leave the house while his little daughter wants to be with the mother and you not writing it off to take the burden off from the family, just because of your greed, then may be US EU courts might not take you to task, but God will one day!

They know that they won't be able to pay off the house right away but they voluntarily step into the credit cycle because the added interest + the principle is less than their expected marginal benefit (i.e., enjoying the house).
The Essence of Interest based banking System is Greed! It is to take and take and give nothing! The Usage of the House , in which you have a room and a roof, you sleep under, is not beneficial! Rather you are paying your Life for peanuts! With Maintenance that you take care yourself and if major maintenance comes up, then your stuck! The House and everything in it and with it doesn't come for free!



yes you're right capitalism is the most successful economic model ever. it skyrocketed productivity which skyrocketed living standards. capitalism is great.
The Global Warming which is taking place and is affecting our environment and is causing Ice to melt, hurricanes, cyclones and other disasters which are taking place, is also because of Massive Production due to Capitalism in Industrialization.... giving man kind more than they need and making them buy, just because they have a free amount of Credit, is leading towards more problems for environment and individuals... so if i don't have the money, rather i save and buy the thing when i have the money, i go max my credit card! This is not progress, this is Materialism... which inturn causes Jealousy, show off, greed etc...

the first part of what you say requires citations from sociological studies. the part about women being weaker and therefore should not work is a bit weird; what type of strength do women need to work? they aren't lifting weights at work...women seem to do just fine. maybe you should make more women friends?!
i don't know what you're talking about. parents who work can raise their kids just fine.
Lets see what is the Problem with Mothers going outside the House to work and leaving their Children with either Day Cares or Baby Sitters and that also IF they can afford...


President Clinton in April, 1997 made Collin Powell as Chairman of President's Summit for America's Future... their Task was to solve the Problem of 15 Million Young Americans considered at-Risk Youth!

"They are at risk of growing unskilled, unlearned or , even worse, UNLOVED! The problem has the Potential to Explode our Society."

What was the reason ? Most of them come from Dysfunctional families and fall victims to the "pathologies and poisons of the Street." Half a million attempt suicide,. A lot of them drop out of high School and will be functionally illiterate in a country with free universal education. Powell suggested to find mentors - adult mentors who would take care of their Children. But what happened to their Parents ? Have they all died ? Have they gone missing ? so whats the reason ? Mothers i.e the Homemaker went outside the house to work, men and women mixed at work place, one thing led to another, and the Home was destroyed!

The adult mentors who are going to be selected for to take care, have to leave their own Houses to take care of other Children. While looking at the whole Problem the American leader ship still did NOT admit that root of the Problem lies in making women go out of their Homes to work!


This is the problem with Modern Western Civilization, they are using their own brain, which is not well equipped, to understand what is Right and what is Wrong!

For that we need Divine Guidance, and therefore Divine Guidance is Perfect...



And so Prophet Muhammad (Saw) said... "Every one of you is in charge and every one will be accountable for those given in his charge....The man is in charge of the household and the woman is in charge of the home of her Husband and his children." (Bukhari Hadith 4801)




, i agree no woman should be forced to work and thankfully in the capitalist economies no woman is forced to work. its her choice to live in whatever conditions she wants to live.
The Economic Recession taking Place, in Capitalistic Economies are forcing Women in the Western World to get in to Immoral Way of earning their Living just because they have maxed their Credit Cards out, taken loans from the Greedy Capitalistic Banking System and are now looking for other ways of making money!


More Women going From Jobless to Topless

In this economy, “desperate measures are becoming far more acceptable,” said Jonathan Alpert, a New York City-based psychotherapist who’s had clients who worked in adult entertainment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29824663/


And NOT to forget that Capitalism , IMF and World Bank, give out loans in Millions to Middle Eastern and African Countries nowing that their Governments are corrupt and then charge Principal PLUS Interest which amount to Billions in Dollars, which becomes almost Impossible for the Countries with lower Value Currency like Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc to be able to pay back ... thus taking over their natural Resources and the Countries own people are left in Poverty .. forcing many Women to go to prostitution as well....

You need to understand the reality...
Reply

Lynx
07-09-2010, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by syed_z
Burdening One with more than he/she is able to bear.... a condition of hard work is also defined as Slavery... Some form of work or production in which the person constitutes the Principal work force while the other just sits and does nothing, and lives off your sweat is Unjust!
No I've never heard slavery as defined as 'condition of hard work'. A person is a slave if he/she is forced to work for free under someone or if they are someone's property. This institution no longer exists in capitalist states and, in fact, capitalism abolished slavery in the united states because it is not conducive to the success of capitalism. This is why the american civil war occurred.

That is Why Leo Tolstoy a Russian writer, said about Banking (Which is the base on which Capitalism stands)... “Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal – that there is no human relation between master and slave.”

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/


Tolstoy is wrong. Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple? No, because you engaged in voluntary trade. Similarly, when you work you are trading something of yours (time + effort) for money so you can buy stuff with that money. There's no ownership of anything. The boss does not own you nor does money own you. You are free to quit any time.

If one person (Banker) just signs a paper and holds on to your precious things as collateral, and are able to seize it any moment if you were to loose a job or not able to make payments for the mortgaged house due to any reasons, and for that you have to work, NOT only to pay the principal amount but hefty Interest on top of it, while the person who signs just sits and does NOTHING!.... thats Exploitation! i don't know what is your definition of exploitation but that certainly is Unjust!
Well interest is the incentive for loans to be given out. I don't understand what your problem is; if someone fails to pay back the loan they promised to pay back then why shouldn't he put through all that? Anyway, they can always file bankruptcy.

The addiction to accumulate wealth by the banking system, is whats leading the banking industry cross limits, in which the Profit Oriented minds that they have, they forget to think for any one , rather they think for no one but themselves.... it is the Hefty Interest amounts which they see and nothing Else!
You're just describing a typical greedy person.

Neither are they able to give you time, and also the law helps them not only in seizing the collateral and bringing you on the street, but also they might take you to court... that is just Unjust... and top of that your wife might have to get out of the house to work and help you pay for it... is crazy...may be it hasnt happened to you or your just fine with it, because every one has just accepted such way of life...
It's not unjust at all to pay back the loan you promised to payback. The bank is going to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Well in that case lets see what Islam tells us in regards to dealing with Loans and how to deal with such people if they are NOT able to pay....and these Verses Particularly talk about Interest (Riba) and its evils...

.......Deal not unjustly and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time until it is easy for him to repay. But if you remit it (i.e., if you write off the debt) by way of charity, that will be best for you, if you only knew.....
(2:278-281)


grant him time, DONT take him to court and humiliate him! and if his wife needs to leave the house while his little daughter wants to be with the mother and you not writing it off to take the burden off from the family, just because of your greed, then may be US EU courts might not take you to task, but God will one day!
You're being over sentimental and it's clouding your judgment. I am not going to give a person a loan of 500,000$ and then if he is unable to pay a remaining 400,000$, I am not going to say 'oh well since you have a daughter I will just write this loan off and I will take losing 400,000$'. Do you know what would happen if banks did this? No one is going to pay their mortgage! Anyway, banks don't take your house the very moment you fail to pay a mortgage payment the process usually takes few months before they do something drastic like that ..or at least that's how it's been from what I've seen.

The Essence of Interest based banking System is Greed! It is to take and take and give nothing! The Usage of the House , in which you have a room and a roof, you sleep under, is not beneficial! Rather you are paying your Life for peanuts! With Maintenance that you take care yourself and if major maintenance comes up, then your stuck! The House and everything in it and with it doesn't come for free!
You missed my point. You might think it's life for peanuts but that doesn't mean other people think that.

The Global Warming which is taking place and is affecting our environment and is causing Ice to melt, hurricanes, cyclones and other disasters which are taking place, is also because of Massive Production due to Capitalism in Industrialization.... giving man kind more than they need and making them buy, just because they have a free amount of Credit, is leading towards more problems for environment and individuals... so if i don't have the money, rather i save and buy the thing when i have the money, i go max my credit card! This is not progress, this is Materialism... which inturn causes Jealousy, show off, greed etc...
Global Warming will hopefully be solved as policies are becoming more eco-friendly. The problem with Global warming and pollution and environmental damage is that it falls beyond the realm of prices so capitalism doesn't really allow it self-regulate as markets do. but nevertheless, better policies will be made to help the environment. I don't know what you're talking about in the second part of your statement. No body makes man buy more than what he needs. Man buys it himself.

Lets see what is the Problem with Mothers going outside the House to work and leaving their Children with either Day Cares or Baby Sitters and that also IF they can afford...


President Clinton in April, 1997 made Collin Powell as Chairman of President's Summit for America's Future... their Task was to solve the Problem of 15 Million Young Americans considered at-Risk Youth!

"They are at risk of growing unskilled, unlearned or , even worse, UNLOVED! The problem has the Potential to Explode our Society."

What was the reason ? Most of them come from Dysfunctional families and fall victims to the "pathologies and poisons of the Street." Half a million attempt suicide,. A lot of them drop out of high School and will be functionally illiterate in a country with free universal education. Powell suggested to find mentors - adult mentors who would take care of their Children. But what happened to their Parents ? Have they all died ? Have they gone missing ? so whats the reason ? Mothers i.e the Homemaker went outside the house to work, men and women mixed at work place, one thing led to another, and the Home was destroyed!

The adult mentors who are going to be selected for to take care, have to leave their own Houses to take care of other Children. While looking at the whole Problem the American leader ship still did NOT admit that root of the Problem lies in making women go out of their Homes to work!
Why don't you link the original research instead of drawing conclusions that the people who investigated didn't draw?

The Economic Recession taking Place, in Capitalistic Economies are forcing Women in the Western World to get in to Immoral Way of earning their Living just because they have maxed their Credit Cards out, taken loans from the Greedy Capitalistic Banking System and are now looking for other ways of making money!


More Women going From Jobless to Topless

In this economy, “desperate measures are becoming far more acceptable,” said Jonathan Alpert, a New York City-based psychotherapist who’s had clients who worked in adult entertainment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29824663/
It seems to me you have a habit of exagerating things that don't mean anything. So what if more women are doing these types of things to earn a living? They have free will and they choose to do whatever they do to make money. Women do these things and worse in all poor countries including Muslim countries and this has been the case throughout history. This can;t be blamed on the capitalist system but on men who want these things and women who supply these things.
[/quote]

And NOT to forget that Capitalism , IMF and World Bank, give out loans in Millions to Middle Eastern and African Countries nowing that their Governments are corrupt and then charge Principal PLUS Interest which amount to Billions in Dollars, which becomes almost Impossible for the Countries with lower Value Currency like Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc to be able to pay back ... thus taking over their natural Resources and the Countries own people are left in Poverty .. forcing many Women to go to prostitution as well....

You need to understand the reality...
And let's not forget the massive wealth of capitalist countries, the high quality of living experienced in the West, & the advancement of developing economies like the BRIC countries ;). Let's not be ungrateful! Most people on this board do live in the West and live like kings compared to other places on the planet.
Reply

glo
07-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
  1. Means you know that God exists
  2. Means you think it's highly likely that God exists
  3. Means you are not sure but leaning towards the belief in God
  4. Means you are torn on the issue of whether God exists
  5. Means you are not sure but leaning towards believing God doesn't exist
  6. Means you think it's highly likely that God doesn't exist
  7. Means you know that God doesn't exist
That's an interesting scale.
I agree that step 1 and 7 cannot truly be sustained, because neither claim can be proven.

Going on personal level of conviction, I would give myself a rating of 1.1 :D
Reply

syed_z
07-09-2010, 10:18 PM
Tolstoy is wrong. Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple? No, because you engaged in voluntary trade. Similarly, when you work you are trading something of yours (time + effort) for money so you can buy stuff with that money. There's no ownership of anything. The boss does not own you nor does money own you. You are free to quit any time.
The reason why i gave the link was to check how many others inluding Tolstoy talk about Money and the Modern Banking System to be a New form of Slavery.... i guess every one is wrong only Lynx is right..... click on the link (which im sure you did) and see how many people have actually said and WARNED about this New form of Slavery... it staring you right in your eyes, but your trying to hide yourself... sad that people don't want to accept reality and live in their own dream world....

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/


Money is not an object first of all; it represents everything we trade our time and labour for. If you have a basket and you trade it for an apple, are you a slave to the apple?
Basket has its own value... but paper money is assigned a value... paper money the new form of Medium of exchange can be devalued or given a higher value depending on who is allowed to issue... since the Banking Industry does, they OWN the thing you use .... what you referring to by the eg of basket and an apple, your talking about a trading system which is not in effect any more because of the Imperialistic Capitalist System! By the Central Banks allowed to issue a currency, they are able to manipulate your earnings because they are the Issuers of it! The new form of money is issuing a paper and assigning a value to it, and tell people its backed by Gold to make it have value in the eyes of people, so they use it as Medium of exchange for trading. Even though its NOT backed by Gold because Banks create Money out of Thin Air!


How does bank Create Credit ?
Just for every ones information who don't know...

Banks have customer deposits which they use to give out loans, because Customers all of them do not come at one time for withdrawal. So with the existing deposit the Bank is allowed to advance loans. But whenever banks issue a loan, they open an account in their own bank and deposit that amount. So every time a bank lends an advance of loans it does not pay the loan in cash but only opens a loan account. Since the borrower does not withdraw that amount, he is allowed to use crossed cheques. Till the loan remains payable the amount of loan remains as loan recieveable in the bank account. Thus every new loan remains a new deposit. Thus it creates credit money. Economists have come to understand that such form of money making is actually Fictitious! That means banks make money and create money out of THIN AIR!

This is also called Fractional Reserve banking, in which each bank is allowed to issue 10 Dollars out of every one actual dollars that they have on deposit of any customer....now some say for every dollar they can create extra 100 Dollars.... or even more... where do you think the bank gets thousands and thousands of dollars to pay in Loans ? Does the Bank Actually own that Money ? People Naive and Ignorant like Lynx think that Banks own money, and since they do they are able to Order you! No... banks create money just because they have license to! Its the only Robbery that is Legalized in the Whole World...

Please all see these Videos, these Videos show how money is Created and how Capitalism is a New form of Imperialism...

Please do watch this Every one!

Money as Debt (1-5 parts)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8&feature=fvsr

The Famous Banker Walter leaf was against such practice and warned the Banking Industry of not to create Credit out of nothing and create money out of nothing.... rather use the existing deposits of Customers only but their unlimited credit creation has led towards Modern Economic Crises as the Worst Economic Crises in the History of Mankind..... because 1st the Capitalistic Banking System was in Europe only, now it has spread towards the whole World...

You're just describing a typical greedy person.
unfortunately it very well comes close to the description of Greedy people who issue loan money on Interest.... i guess you should have read the Bible Lynx as well...

In Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 and 34 Jesus went inside the Temple and turned the tables upside down... and called un to the Jews who were dealing in Usury and called them Brood of Vipers and thieves...


It seems to me you have a habit of exagerating things that don't mean anything. So what if more women are doing these types of things to earn a living? They have free will and they choose to do whatever they do to make money. Women do these things and worse in all poor countries including Muslim countries and this has been the case throughout history. This can;t be blamed on the capitalist system but on men who want these things and women who supply these things.
it seems to me that you have completely Lost the Sense of Morality... by the way may i ask your Belief ? Since you already said you are not an Atheist, well if you would have said yes you were, then i can understand why a person would not think that such form of Work ... that is women having to show their bodies to make money, and losing their Honor in the Public, is immoral. I guess some one was right about you... you don't feel anything is immoral unless it physically hurts you! The Brother was right!


Why don't you link the original research instead of drawing conclusions that the people who investigated didn't draw?
you are so ignorant my friend... or since you do reply and type and answer, i don't think may be you are ... may be you are pretending to be... the Future of America topic was to discuss 15 Million childrens life is at risk because their Parents Rleation Ship came to END because of Mothers leaving the House to work outside in offices and other places, where they ended up in relation ship.... oh well may be anything hurting you physical is the only Problem you might see as a Problem!

And let's not forget the massive wealth of capitalist countries, the high quality of living experienced in the West, & the advancement of developing economies like the BRIC countries ;). Let's not be ungrateful! Most people on this board do live in the West and live like kings compared to other places on the planet.
What is banking and what is the reality of Capitalism... the links are already posted above and yes not only leo Tolstoy but all those Leaders and Famous Writers have agreed in the link of money masters.... but you want to remain ignorant...

(8:55) Verily the Vilest Creatures in the Sight of God are those who are bent on denying the Truth and therefore do not Believe.
Reply

Lynx
07-11-2010, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by syed_z
The reason why i gave the link was to check how many others inluding Tolstoy talk about Money and the Modern Banking System to be a New form of Slavery.... i guess every one is wrong only Lynx is right..... click on the link (which im sure you did) and see how many people have actually said and WARNED about this New form of Slavery... it staring you right in your eyes, but your trying to hide yourself... sad that people don't want to accept reality and live in their own dream world....

http://www.themoneymasters.com/the-m...ns-on-banking/


you're committing a logical fallacy known as appeal to authority. just because you have a bunch of guys who say one thing it does not follow that it's true especially considering the reasons i showed earlier on why slavery has nothing to do with what we have today. quotes are just the opinions of people. curiously, that site has a quote of milton friedman who is one of the most pro capitalist thinkers.

Basket has its own value... but paper money is assigned a value... paper money the new form of Medium of exchange can be devalued or given a higher value depending on who is allowed to issue... since the Banking Industry does, they OWN the thing you use .... what you referring to by the eg of basket and an apple, your talking about a trading system which is not in effect any more because of the Imperialistic Capitalist System! By the Central Banks allowed to issue a currency, they are able to manipulate your earnings because they are the Issuers of it! The new form of money is issuing a paper and assigning a value to it, and tell people its backed by Gold to make it have value in the eyes of people, so they use it as Medium of exchange for trading. Even though its NOT backed by Gold because Banks create Money out of Thin Air!
the value of the basket is the labour put into it; it has no value in itself as a 'basket'. if you say the use-value is its value then that's not real value either since it fluctuates with demand. anyway, my point was that money has nothing to do with slavery and i am not clear on how you compare money with slavery and so far it seems that you have a definition of slavery that you made up on your own.

The Famous Banker Walter leaf was against such practice and warned the Banking Industry of not to create Credit out of nothing and create money out of nothing.... rather use the existing deposits of Customers only but their unlimited credit creation has led towards Modern Economic Crises as the Worst Economic Crises in the History of Mankind..... because 1st the Capitalistic Banking System was in Europe only, now it has spread towards the whole World...
unfortunately it very well comes close to the description of Greedy people who issue loan money on Interest.... i guess you should have read the Bible Lynx as well...

In Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 and 34 Jesus went inside the Temple and turned the tables upside down... and called un to the Jews who were dealing in Usury and called them Brood of Vipers and thieves...
making a profit is not greedy even if jesus thinks so.

it seems to me that you have completely Lost the Sense of Morality... by the way may i ask your Belief ? Since you already said you are not an Atheist, well if you would have said yes you were, then i can understand why a person would not think that such form of Work ... that is women having to show their bodies to make money, and losing their Honor in the Public, is immoral. I guess some one was right about you... you don't feel anything is immoral unless it physically hurts you! The Brother was right!
Maybe you didn't read what I said so I will repeat: whether women show off their bodies in public for money has nothing to do with 'capitalism'; women have been doing that in non-capitalist countries and before capitalism was ever conceived. prostitution is the oldest profession as they say. what i was saying in my previous post is that you're blaming capitalism for the creation of prostitutes and strippers when you should be blaming poverty and the free-will of women. please don't say capitalism is the cause of poverty..

you are so ignorant my friend... or since you do reply and type and answer, i don't think may be you are ... may be you are pretending to be... the Future of America topic was to discuss 15 Million childrens life is at risk because their Parents Rleation Ship came to END because of Mothers leaving the House to work outside in offices and other places, where they ended up in relation ship.... oh well may be anything hurting you physical is the only Problem you might see as a Problem!
sorry if im ignorant..i am not used to people telling me about studies but refusing to cite them so i can read them for myself. maybe where you've studied people just tell you stuff and you believe without questioning? i await citation to the original research you're describing ;)


What is banking and what is the reality of Capitalism... the links are already posted above and yes not only leo Tolstoy but all those Leaders and Famous Writers have agreed in the link of money masters.... but you want to remain ignorant...

(8:55) Verily the Vilest Creatures in the Sight of God are those who are bent on denying the Truth and therefore do not Believe.
yes great leader and famous writers like Milton friedman lol. You realize that the banking system of capitalist countries is not the same thing as capitalism right? i think your beef is with the American banking system rather than capitalism as an ideology and you're confusing the two..which is leading you to say all these weird things.
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