Afghanistan Taliban

[hooralayn72]

Salamu alaikum.

Recently there has been a series of suicide attacks done by the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan. These acts are condemned since muslims died in the attack. Regarding the suicide bombing issue, some scholars say its haraam, and some scholars say its allowed as the last solution. With regars to the afghan taliban, they may to some things wrong, but remember at the end of the day we want an islamic afghan state, not a democratic afghan state.

So we must remember that eventhough the taliban can do wrong things, they are the only ones at the moment trying to establish an islamic state.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salam

There already has been topic on this. Two in fact.

Here is one of them:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...aliban-12.html

[syed_z]

Salamu alaikum.

Recently there has been a series of suicide attacks done by the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan. These acts are condemned since muslims died in the attack. Regarding the suicide bombing issue, some scholars say its haraam, and some scholars say its allowed as the last solution. With regars to the afghan taliban, they may to some things wrong, but remember at the end of the day we want an islamic afghan state, not a democratic afghan state.

So we must remember that eventhough the taliban can do wrong things, they are the only ones at the moment trying to establish an islamic state.

The Afghan Taliban even though have been resorting to suicide bombings in the last couple of years, have come to realize that suicide bombings do damage the enemy, however takes many lives of the innocent.... such thinking on the part of Afghan Taliban to change their way, has made them even more popular, because at 1st they were resisting occupational forces, now because of the change in their strategy has made, them more acceptable to the public.... before Taliban fighters were not friendly, with the population of Afghanistan, but now they have even changed that and are told by their elders, to follow the teachings of Islam, and deal with the population with good manners and good behavior. The Taliban have also admitted their mistake of letting foreigners built camps inside Afghanistan, in the name of Jihad, who had run away from neighboring countries like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Iran and China, thus making them even more unpopular in the sight of the regional countries. There is an article i had read by Suhail Shaheen in Kabul Times who said the following..



Recently the Taliban have become more watchful of the foreign Jihadists in Afghanistan. They require foreign militants to work the under supervision of the Taliban provincial commanders. Foreign militant are now not allowed, like before, to carry out their activities independently.
The Taliban say that the previous rules for foreign jihadists were problematic for the Taliban, because some of their activities contradicted the Taliban's policies and goals. Last year, Mullah Muhammad Omar, issued instructions to his supporters in Afghanistan to disarm all anti-government armed groups who were not registered with Taliban. This step was taken after reports that some militant groups, posing as Taliban, were involved in kidnapping and extorting money from people.
In his new message, Mullah Omar stressed out that: "Mujahideen should stop all those who, under the name of Mujahideen, want to encroach on the property, life and honor of people by provocation of the enemy and they should impart Islamic education to people."


As the new rules point out, foreign militants have to share their information with local Taliban commanders and disclose all their activities.


The other aspect of the Taliban's new policy is focusing on winning the hearts and minds of common Afghans. The Taliban expedited their contacts with the common people in rural areas after announcement of new strategy by Pentagon to win over the Afghans. In a part of the Eid's message, Mullah Omar says: "The Mujahideen should not consider themselves as an entity separate from people. They should protect people’s property, life and honor and should focus on Islamic education of masses."



article from www.Islamonline.net....




So these changes and their way of dealing with Afghanis and US and Allie's failure to deliver to Afghanistan what they promised, and the resistance of Taliban, is making them more popular since Attack on Afghan after 9/11.... the majority of Afghanistan were never against Taliban from beginning...


Thereek E Taliban, are in Pakistan and not in Afghanistan.... and many among the fighters are sent in to Pakistan to engage Pak army in a battle so Pak would become weak and easy for India to take over... they have been caught with Indian , German and American made weapons ... however God knows best, because Pak Army has also been invovled in killing many innocents in the air strikes done in those areas, and so every action has a reaction and some are there to exploit the situation for their own benefit...

[glacier456]

Salamu alaikum.

Recently there has been a series of suicide attacks done by the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan. These acts are condemned since muslims died in the attack. Regarding the suicide bombing issue, some scholars say its haraam, and some scholars say its allowed as the last solution. With regars to the afghan taliban, they may to some things wrong, but remember at the end of the day we want an islamic afghan state, not a democratic afghan state.

So we must remember that eventhough the taliban can do wrong things, they are the only ones at the moment trying to establish an islamic state.

I think it's easy for you to espouse your political leanings all over a message board, when you're not living there. It's quite easy, isn't it?

Look up: Roadside Bomb kills 25 in Afghanistan.

More great news from your "brothers", right?

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[Rhubarb Tart]

I think it's easy for you to espouse your political leanings all over a message board, when you're not living there. It's quite easy, isn't it?

Look up: Roadside Bomb kills 25 in Afghanistan.

More great news from your "brothers", right?

I happen to agree with you.

Suicide bombing as a last resort, I don’t see using suicide bombing near many innocent people as “last resort”. They are not helping at all.

Allah (swt) knows best...

[glacier456]

I happen to agree with you.

Suicide bombing as a last resort, I don’t see using suicide bombing near many innocent people as “last resort”. They are not helping at all.

Allah (swt) knows best...

Look up on CNN "6 Afghan civilians killed in IED attacks".

I remember when people thought it was revolutionary when it came out that US troops kill Afghans. Well, the truth is a double edged sword. The Taliban kill many Afghans as well.

[glo]

Recently there has been a series of suicide attacks done by the Tehrik e Taliban Pakistan. These acts are condemned since muslims died in the attack. Regarding the suicide bombing issue, some scholars say its haraam, and some scholars say its allowed as the last solution.

Are you saying, if only non-Muslims had died, then the attacks would not be condemned? :?

[aadil77]

I think it's easy for you to espouse your political leanings all over a message board, when you're not living there. It's quite easy, isn't it?

Look up: Roadside Bomb kills 25 in Afghanistan.

More great news from your "brothers", right?

Look up: Airstrike kills 181 civilians in Afghanistan.

More great news from your "brothers", right?

Difference is if the people fighting to defend your country accidently killed civilians in the process; you wouldn't be as angry as if a foreign army invaded your country and then killed your civilians on purpose

[aadil77]

Are you saying, if only non-Muslims had died, then the attacks would not be condemned? :?

I think he's talking about in the sense of the common enemy, the main people fighting muslims at the moment are non-muslim soldiers, so if they had died why would it be condemned?

[Rhubarb Tart]

I think he's talking about in the sense of the common enemy, the main people fighting muslims at the moment are non-muslim soldiers, so if they had died why would it be condemned?

Yes I was going to say the same thing. He is not talking about the few non muslim that live there.

[glo]

I think he's talking about in the sense of the common enemy, the main people fighting muslims at the moment are non-muslim soldiers, so if they had died why would it be condemned?

The way I see it, people who might fall victim to a suicide bombing could be any of the following:

• Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban (Not likely, but perhaps not impossible?)
• Muslim civilian bystanders
• Non-Muslim civilian bystanders
  
  

Which of these people killed in a suicide bombing would be considered acceptable, and which ones would ones wouldn't?

Is the criteria whether people were Muslim or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were fighting for the 'right side' or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were innocent bystanders or not?
Or should the criteria be whether the whole act is inhumane and unacceptable or not?

[aadil77]

The way I see it, people who might fall victim to a suicide bombing could be any of the following:

• Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban (Not likely, but perhaps not impossible?)
• Muslim civilian bystanders
• Non-Muslim civilian bystanders
  
  

Which of these people killed in a suicide bombing would be considered acceptable, and which ones would ones wouldn't?

Is the criteria whether people were Muslim or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were fighting for the 'right side' or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were innocent bystanders or not?
Or should the criteria be whether the whole act is inhumane and unacceptable or not?

I think you know the answer to that Glo, but I'll try and answer you anyway

In the current afghan situation the taliban were and still are the legitimate muslim govt. So in this case if the country gets invaded by non-muslims then obviously they have to be fought, if a group of muslims allie with the invaders and fight and rebel against the existing muslim govt then they are also to be fought because they are traitors.

Obviously civilians are not to be targeted whether muslim or non-muslims, I'm sure you know that and why would the taliban target their own people, sounds a bit stupid doesn't it?

People who spy for and help the opposition obviously would not be treated as common civilians, rather traitors and the decision of what to do with them lies with commanders etc.

Suicide bombings themselves are not fully accepted by the majority as islamic, cause you're killing yourself. But since they're being used in a way to fight the opposition, some scholars allow them - I personally don't agree with them.

pretty straight forward

[syed_z]

Simple Logic.... all My Christian friends should ask themselves ?

If Taliban are bad , then shouldn't they be loosing ? Why are they winning ?

Because Afghans, know that just like Russia, USA and NATO promises are empty... they come to do nothing but Drug Business, Make Pipelines , Extract minerals and destablize Pakistan and Iran.... they have no other job... so Taliban are our Freedom Fighters... and yes in Fighting for freedom innocents do get killed, but they are NOT the targets! The targets are Foreign Forces....

here read this...

Afghan giant challenges US forces

An Afghan youth in the southeastern province of Paktia has challenged US troops to a wrestling competition, saying he can beat two strong US soldiers simultaneously.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020403


Read Middle Eastern News Agencies and DONT listen to Propagandist CNN and BBC... and you'll see yourself... the Afghans are with the Taliban thats why its been 11 years and still Foreign Forces are loosing !

Tons of news and reports i can show you , that Taliban did not kill unintentionally civilians as much as Nato Air Strikes and Drone Strikes killed innocent Civilians...


The USA And NATO have F 16 and Drone Technology and F 17 etc.... the Taliban have Remote Control bombs and Suicide Vests... !!



Another One here....
Hundreds of Afghans have taken to the streets in the southwestern Helmand province to voice their anger at the killing of a 65-year-old man by US troops

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020403



Just like HOW Trolls come here in Islamicboard.com and do it this is what they do in Afghanistan!!
People in southern Afghanistan have protested against US-led NATO forces over desecration of the Muslim holy book of Quran

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020403


All Brothers/sisters i can show you much Filth the Foreign Forces are doing in Afghanistan!!

I pray for Mujahideen Every day May Allah (Swt) be with them, they are Soldiers of Allah and they will InshAllah kick the Foreigners OUT! :)

[glo]

Obviously civilians are not to be targeted whether muslim or non-muslims, I'm sure you know that and why would the taliban target their own people, sounds a bit stupid doesn't it?

I think you are missing my point.

By it's very method of suicide does not differentiate between military and civilian people, Muslims and non-Muslims. Innocent people may not be actively targeted, yet it cannot be avoided that such people may die in the process.

That's just as inhumane as missiles which mistakenly hit civilian targets, don't you think? Both repulse me! +o(

What do they call it? Collateral damage?
I call it human lives! :heated:

* * *

But you haven't answered my question, aadil.

Up to which point can suicide bombing be condoned (apart from - as you mention - the fact that killing oneself is un-Islamic; seemingly some people disagree and consider it the act of a martyr and hero)?

As long as only anti-Taliban military personnel die?
Still acceptable if non-Muslim civilians die? What about civilians who have no links whatsoever with the war?
Still acceptable when non-Muslim and Muslim civilians die?

Where is the line, aadil?
When does the heroic act of a martyr become an offense and a sin against humanity?

This thread makes me mad! :heated:
I'm outa here ...

[جوري]

The way I see it, people who might fall victim to a suicide bombing could be any of the following:

• Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting for the Taliban
• Non-Muslim soldiers fighting against the Taliban (Not likely, but perhaps not impossible?)
• Muslim civilian bystanders
• Non-Muslim civilian bystanders
  
  

Which of these people killed in a suicide bombing would be considered acceptable, and which ones would ones wouldn't?

Is the criteria whether people were Muslim or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were fighting for the 'right side' or not?
Or is the criteria whether people were innocent bystanders or not?
Or should the criteria be whether the whole act is inhumane and unacceptable or not?

non-Muslim combatants killed would be acceptable in fact that is what we want no? or do you expect that they treat your boys with wreaths of flowers, tea and biscuits?

p.s looks like I missed all the fun with turdo boy 'glacier' and good riddance may he have sudden rapids straight into some lava!

[جوري]

This thread makes me mad! :heated:
I'm outa here ..

Good.. and we sure hope that you are equally mad when your turds bomb entire villages carpet style!

[Muslimeen]

Modern warfare is just not like in old times, were armies would meet on the battlefield, do battle and then depart, civilian casualties were very few and far between them. Now days towns, cities, market places and school playgrounds have become battlefields, is this also the fault of muslims?? We don't want civilian casualities.

I bet the western world would love to blame this on muslims as well, but honestly speaking, it is their technology that has reshaped the face of warfare. They developed bombs, fighter planes, machine guns, and nuclear weaponry. They attack us from hundreds of miles away, bombs that cannot decipher against, civilians, women or children. What do they expect us to do, come and stand in an open field so they can throw bombs on us from 40 000 ft??

I challenge them if they have the guts and care about civilian casualities, to put aside all their modern weaponry and meet us on the battlefield 1 on 1, armed only with swords and shields like in ancient times lets see how long they last.
For them every soldier is a man, for us every man is a soldier.

[glo]

Good.. and we sure hope that you are equally mad when your turds bomb entire villages carpet style!

Did I not make that very clear?

That's just as inhumane as missiles which mistakenly hit civilian targets, don't you think? Both repulse me! +o(

What do they call it? Collateral damage?
I call it human lives! :heated:

Let me say it again, loud and clear, so there is no more confusion:

I absolutely abhor any kind of warfare, which causes suffering and fear and pain and death to innocent civilians! Full stop!

It doesn't matter whether they are Muslims, Christians, atheists or followers of any other religion; whether they are black, white or blue; whether they are male or female; old or young - innocent civilians should be able to live peaceful lives without having to fear for their lives, livelihoods, homes, families, and how to put food on the table.



Ummu Sufyaan, of course I don't hate Muslims. Anybody who knows me even just a little bit knows that.

I simply speak out against people who forcefully deny others the right to live peaceful lives by instilling fear and terror, by causing harm and by killing people indiscriminately.
Sometimes those people are Muslims, and sometimes they are not. Whoever they are, they are in the wrong and should be stopped!

[Ramadhan]

I absolutely abhor any kind of warfare, which causes suffering and fear and pain and death to innocent civilians! Full stop!

It is good for you to have this kind of view.
Unfortunately, Christians establishments (conservatives, christians right, evangelists, catholic churches, etc) SUPPORT or at least do NOT oppose western invasions and occupations of Muslim countries (Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, and Iran to follow).

TALK is indeed CHEAP.

[M.I.A.]

yeah im not with "collateral damage" no matter who does it.

[glo]

It is good for you to have this kind of view.
Unfortunately, Christians establishments (conservatives, christians right, evangelists, catholic churches, etc) SUPPORT or at least do NOT oppose western invasions and occupations of Muslim countries (Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, and Iran to follow).

TALK is indeed CHEAP.

I agree, naidamar, that not enough establishments speak out against those wars.
Unfortunately I cannot speak for other Christians - I can only speak for myself.
However it would be wrong to give the impression that there are no Christian groups who are against it (the way you worded your sentence gives that impression)

See for yourself:

Thousands of Christians braved frigid temperatures, icy conditions and on 16 March 2007 to protest in Washington DC against the Iraq war - with some 200 facing arrest.
[...]
Evangelical, Catholic, mainline Protestant, Pentecostal and other Christian groups opposed to the war - including the Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America - helped organize the protest. Its organizers called "for an end to the US occupation, real support for our troops, a total rejection of torture and an international commitment to the physical and human reconstruction that is so desperately needed in Iraq."

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/4896

The Iraq war is an unjust war and an evil war. We did not have the right before God to destroy Saddam Hussein and kill his people just because we suspected he might eventually attack the U.S

http://pastorsb.com/Iraqwar.htm

The Bush Administration asserts that there is a compelling moral case for a preemptive war against Iraq. Yet over 100 leading Christian ethicists in America disagree. These ethicists have signed a statement expressing their view that no such compelling case has been made.

http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action...ists_statement

A majority of British Christians think the government should set a timetable for the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, a poll has suggested.
[...]
Archbishop Rowan Williams launched his own attack on the government over its involvement in the Iraq war earlier this month.
[...]
Saturday saw the latest protest march in London against the war in Afghanistan. Among those attending was Peter Brierley, the father of a dead soldier.

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/forei...--$1336306.htm


I am sure I can find plenty more, if you would like me to.
There are people who speak out - and I believe they are growing in numbers.

May we all learn to speak out against injustice and inhumane treatment of those in need and suffering!

[Trumble]

The latest cowardly atrocity..... sorry, heroic battle fought by the noble Taliban to defend their lands, and honour of their wives and daughters. Cough... I'd laugh if it wasn't so desperately sad. Thieves and murderers with BS excuses.

UK medic Karen Woo named as Afghanistan shooting victim

[Zafran]

The latest cowardly atrocity..... sorry, heroic battle fought by the noble Taliban to defend their lands, and honour of their wives and daughters. Cough... I'd laugh if it wasn't so desperately sad. Thieves and murderers with BS excuses.

UK medic Karen Woo named as Afghanistan shooting victim

Its a pity that we dont know the names of the Afghans that get killed by drone bombings.

[syed_z]

Its a pity that we dont know the names of the Afghans that get killed by drone bombings.

The reason because when the Drone drops bombs on innocent men, women and children, the martyrs are too many in numbers, that it might make the Occupational Regimes, even more unpopular in the eyes of the World.


Btw the Article says...

Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid claimed the group were found in possession of bibles translated into Dari and had been killed because they were Christian Missionaries.


Well this sounds so familiar, for this has NOT happened the 1st time!


If we closely examine the Evangelical Christian Groups in the Muslim World, the Christian Fundamentalism, has become more than a "religious" mission, rather it has become a tool for the occupational Forces to establish their Rule over Foreign, specially Muslim lands...

According to Yogindar Sikand, an analyst from India:

As is widely believed, many evangelical groups working in the ‘Third World’ are simply fronts for Western agencies and governments, helping to promote their vested interests and strategic goals. This is most readily apparent from the cozy relationship between Christian fundamentalists and the current Bush administration. Right-wing American Christian groups are known to be sources of immense financial support to Israel. They are also vociferous backers of America’s imperialist designs on the Muslim world, seeing these as a divinely mandated crusade against the forces of ‘evil’. These Christian groups also served to promote American interests abroad. Several of them received generous funding from far-right American government lobbies, CIA front organizations, American big business and right-wing think tanks. Many missionaries were appointed as sources of vital information for the CIA, and were used to bolster American hegemony by indoctrination and spreading American propaganda.


Yoginder Sikand, “The Evangelical Challenge: A New Face of Western Imperialism,” The Evangelical Challenge, March 15, 2005. http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display



It is a fact, that when Americans and their Allies NATO attacked Afghanistan, one of the Reasons was that they could see an Islamic State with Quran as the Constitution being implemented, which would show the Blessings inherent in the Shariah (Islamic Law) teachings, and also it could be that such Blessed Rule, might get exported to the neighboring Muslim region thus bringing down the Puppet Muslim Regimes, being supported by the Crusading West. They could not risk such and had to step in the Region and stop it some how....Drugs and Pipe Lines are other factors... and destabilizing the Muslim COuntries was also one, for Israel to become the New Middle East power etc..


So The West uses the Garb of "Religion" and "peaceful Missionaries" to attracts as many followers as possible, so that their mission of Occupation becomes easy....

[Rhubarb Tart]

What? That does not justify the attack. Of Course they would have bibles, they are Christians! Did the Taliban have any other proof (that they were trying to convert people) apart from bibles which they could have read during their spare time? I mean would you agree if a Christians were to kill people from Islamic relief because they had the Quran?

It isn’t hard to believe that Muslims from Islamic relief are there to help rather than convert people (like Haiti) but if it was a Christian, they are apparently there to convert people not help. The Taliban had no real proof apart from “bibles”, there is no real justification for this attack in particular. I am appalled at anyone that tries to justify it.

People can disagree with the war but sure doesn’t mean they have to support the Taliban.

[syed_z]

Yvonne Ridley, a Former Christian reverted towards Islam, AFTER she was released from being captured by Taliban...not only because Islam is the Truth but also because Taliban treated her with Much Respect.... and she was impressed by the Way they treat women, exactly OPPOSITE of what Western Media says about them....

Please watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq0Yi...eature=related


Enjoy :)

[Rhubarb Tart]

That still does not justify the attack and other atrocities that Taliban themselves have admitted to. These people were unarmed, they could or should have kept them hostage. One woman vs how many Afghanis?

Again being against the war in Afghanistan does not mean you have to support the Taliban.
:)

[Maryan0]

They come into a warzone in the guise of helping and take advantage of the destitute and desperate to spread their religion while their countrymen occupy and kill innocent people and they expect to be shown mercy? What despicable people. What vultures these missionaries are.
*in reference to those 8? people killed recently.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Any proof that they were missionaries and also the fact that they were working there for years, decades as the man claims means nothing. All of the sudden they are trying to convert people and should be killed. Why now? Any proof apart what the Taliban said?

I find ironic that when Taliban is presented in bad light by the media, its all made up etc (which I kind of accept) but when the Taliban themselves say something it is the truth, nothing but the truth.
I am going to say what I say to the western media where is the proof that these people were there to convert people? Where is the photo of the bibles?


I wonder what people would say if Muslims helpers were to be killed by Christians in Christian country.

[syed_z]

What? That does not justify the attack. Of Course they would have bibles, they are Christians! Did the Taliban have any other proof (that they were trying to convert people) apart from bibles which they could have read during their spare time? I mean would you agree if a Christians were to kill people from Islamic relief because they had the Quran?

It isn’t hard to believe that Muslims from Islamic relief are there to help rather than convert people (like Haiti) but if it was a Christian, they are apparently there to convert people not help. The Taliban had no real proof apart from “bibles”, there is no real justification for this attack in particular. I am appalled at anyone that tries to justify it.

People can disagree with the war but sure doesn’t mean they have to support the Taliban.

1st of all i don't know what happened at that shooting spot. Niether were you there, niether was i ... and surely the Western Media known to spread Anti Islamic propaganda is NOT whom i trust. The only reason why i posted the above was, to show... yes there has been links between the Christian Missionaries and Western Occupational Regimes. God knows best whether they fired at them 1st or the Missionaries were trying to run away from them or something else.


We need to understand One thing here, Government In Kabul was Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, it was established by the Taliban. The Americans and Nato came and invaded and established a Puppet Regime, which is NOT supported by people, and it should not be hard to figure that out because President of Afghanistan Hamid Karzai is more like Mayor of Kabul... because he has no Writ outside Kabul , and Afghanistan is in control of Taliban and NOT in control of the Puppet Regime. He does not even step out of Kabul , and cannot enter most Areas of Afghanistan, then how is he even considered a President of Afghan ? Yes only because Western Media propagates such... thats why...


So what are the Rules of Taliban, when it was their government, what is their Law and how do they treat such People ? Has it happened before and if it did , then what did Taliban do ?


The Taliban had many times, caught the Missionaries working in Afghanistan and trying to convert Muslims to Christianity, under the Garb of "Aid"... under the Law of Taliban, the Missionaries were warned several times, not to preach stuff like Jesus is the Son of God and Muhammad (saw) was a False Prophet.... May we Seek refuge in Allah (swt) from saying such words and teachings our Kids that Allah has a 'son'.... and so it was August 2001...

the Taliban government in Afghanistan arrested two members of Antioch Community Church: Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer. Curry and Mercer came to Kabul with Shelter For Life, a Christian missionary and relief organization that works in Afghanistan, Angola, Burundi, Honduras, Iran, Iraq, India, Kosovo, Macedonia, Pakistan, Tajikistan and Western Sahara. The Taliban were the only one who accused Curry and Mercer of proselytizing, a crime during its regime in Afghanistan.

The Taliban let them go, and they were welcomed back inside America, and President Bush at that time gave a Speech in their honor at the White House Lawn. Their coming back , after being under arrest by the "Evil" Taliban helped the already busy Western Media doing Campaign against the Taliban ....

"They had a calling to serve the poorest of the poor" President Bush said at a White House ceremony shortly after the Hollywood-style rescue of Curry and Mercer. "Their faith was a source of hope that kept them from being discouraged."

But Curry and Mercer were doing more than relief work. Once home, they admitted to violating Afghan law by showing part of a Jesus Film. On top of that, such Missionaries are used as cover to create more agents of the West who can penetrate in to Muslim world and so it can help the Occupational Regimes in their ability to stop the growth of Islam and Muslims....


The Increase of Drug trade in Afghanistan, which is affecting the entire Region and is increasing Drug Addicts in the Muslim World, plus illegal arms Trade which is fueling the fire of Conflict in the Region and Agenda to extract Minerals from Afghanistan and make Gas pipelines and oil pipelines.... PLUS Missionaries doing their Job to help them achieve all of that should answer Sister Sweet , its more than just "converting"...

[syed_z]

That still does not justify the attack and other atrocities that Taliban themselves have admitted to. These people were unarmed, they could or should have kept them hostage. One woman vs how many Afghanis?

Again being against the war in Afghanistan does not mean you have to support the Taliban.
:)

Well im sorry i have to, because the Taliban are the only ones whose actions prove that they are against the War.... also the Taliban were taken out because, they had established Islamic Rule ... and Puppet Regime of Afghanistan has brought back all corruption which Taliban had eliminated...

[Rhubarb Tart]

Well im sorry i have to, because the Taliban are the only ones whose actions prove that they are against the War.... also the Taliban were taken out because, they had established Islamic Rule ... and Puppet Regime of Afghanistan has brought back all corruption which Taliban had eliminated...

Salam

From what you have posted is it from the same Christain group as those people that were killed today?

I don’t know what Islamic rule you are talking about. The "Islamic" rule before the war shouldn’t be classified Islamic anyways. I don’t support them but I rather want the people to decide then foreign forces. I don’t know whether the people want the Taliban or not.

[Maryan0]

Any proof that they were missionaries and also the fact that they were working there for years, decades as the man claims means nothing. All of the sudden they are trying to convert people and should be killed. Why now? Any proof apart what the Taliban said?

Any proof that they werent? and years dont mean anything missionaries are quite patient when it serves their purposes. Is the fact that christian missionaries are taking advantage of the poor something new? they've been doing it the world over for years. I may not agree with everything the taliban does but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Particulary when there was a news story a while back of soldiers going around trying to convert people. I dont put it past these people. They are opportunists looking to convert people to their religion in the most lowdown cunning ways. You'll even see it in the west where christian fanatics prey on immigrants who know very little english.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...025169646.html

I wonder what people would say if Muslims helpers were to be killed by Christians in Christian country.

If muslims come into a country as occupiers and than go around using help to lure desperate people into Islam than we can use that as an example. But I dont think it happens. I can sympathize with anybody but I just cant sympathize with missionaries. They are vermin and if they all died I wouldnt care.
Salam

[Rhubarb Tart]

Any proof that they werent? and years dont mean anything missionaries are quite patient when it serves their purposes. Is the fact that christian missionaries are taking advantage of the poor something new? they've been doing it the world over for years. I may not agree with everything the taliban does but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Particulary when there was a news story a while back of soldiers going around trying to convert people. I dont put it past these people. They are opportunists looking to convert people to their religion in the most lowdown cunning ways. You'll even see it in the west where christian fanatics prey on immigrants who know very little english.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/as...025169646.html





If muslims come into a country as occupiers and than go around using help to lure desperate people into Islam than we can use that as an example. But I dont think it happens. I can sympathize with anybody but I just cant sympathize with missionaries. They are vermin and if they all died I wouldnt care.
Salam

Salam

Good points. Allah (swt) knows if these people were really there to help or not.
Your last point, I did read Saudi Arabia went to particular village and converted the people. They helped a couple with twins. I don’t know whether they were there just to convert or were helping as the article presented them in a good light surprisingly. I shall post here once I find it ishallah. I rarely hear Muslims doing it tho apart from something similar like the article I read.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Here is a positive article I was talking about!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8605403.stm

Cameroon's conjoined twins help spread Islam



By Francis Ngwa Niba
Babanki Tungo, Cameroon


Cameroonian conjoined twins Pheinbom and Shevoboh were seen as a bad omen when born, but their successful separation by Saudi surgeons has changed their lives - and the faith of some in their village.


People used to see me carrying them and run away and I felt so guilty and alone

Twins' mother Emerencia Nyumale
They were joined at the chest, abdomen and pelvis when born and some of the delivery nurses in Babanki Tungo, a village in north-west Cameroon, were so shocked by the "strange birth" that they ran out of the small clinic.

The basic medical services in Babanki Tungo were ill-equipped to care for the girls and, following an internet appeal, the Saudi king agreed to pay for them to be flown to Saudi Arabia for surgery in 2007.

The 16-hour operation succeeded in separating the twins and now they each have their own stomach.



Ngong James Akumbu (r), aka "Abdallah", has fathered 13 children
However, nearly three years on from the surgery, serious physical challenges remain.

After the separation, the girls were left with one leg each, and they are now waiting to return to Saudi Arabia to be fitted with artificial limbs and begin the arduous task of learning how to walk.

At the moment, they can only crawl. Even so, the twins are playful, talkative and mischievous - typical four-year-old girls, in fact.

But when they were born, they were anything but typical.

Islamic conversions

Some people in Babanki Tungo - a farming village known for producing many of Cameroon's vegetables - thought they were "satanic gifts" sent to punish their father, who already had 13 other children by two different wives.


Before the school was opened, I was unemployed, had many girlfriends and drank a lot

Koranic school teacher Kum Edwin
Others believed that Pheinbom and Shevoboh were sent to punish the whole village, after a traditional leader in the region was burnt alive by his angry subjects.

"It was very difficult when the babies were still joined together," the girls' mother Emerencia Nyumale remembers.

"People used to see me carrying them and run away and I felt so guilty and alone," she says.

"Thank God all that has ended now since their separation."

The girls' story has had another importance consequence for the people of Babanki Tungo.



Babanki Tungo has seen several conversions to Islam following the twins' separation

The Saudi government is funding an Islamic centre in the village consisting of a mosque, nursery, primary school and health centre.

This has led some village elders to predict that the largely Christian Babanki Tungo will be slowly Islamised.

The twins' parents have taken the lead.

As a mark of appreciation to their daughters' Saudi benefactors, they have converted to Islam.

The girl's father, Ngong James Akumbu, now calls himself "Abdallah", Emerencia goes by "Aisha", and five or their children attend the Islamic primary school.

Blessing or curse?

Kum Edwin, a teacher at the school, has also converted.

"Before the school was opened, I was unemployed, had many girlfriends and drank a lot," says Mr Edwin, who has changed his name to "Abdallah Wagf".


CONJOINED TWINS
Conjoined twins are extremely rare, occurring in as few as one in every 200,000 live births
They are created just a few days after conception - most likely by the incomplete splitting of the fertilised egg
Most are stillborn, and a proportion of those who are born alive do not survive long afterwards
"When I heard an Islamic school will be opened here, I did a three-month Islamic studies [course]… I no longer drink a lot and I am now searching for a wife because having lots of girlfriends is not good."

Many people in Babanki Tungo now see the birth of Pheinbom and Shevoboh as a blessing rather than a curse.

The sight of the twins crawling around the village no longer attracts mistrustful looks, as once it did.

"I always tell every parent to be patient because God always tempts people by showing them bad things which are good things in the future," muses the girls' father.

Indeed, the twins have seen a remarkable change in their fortunes.

From outcasts at birth, they now have their own, separate lives and have played an important part in changing the lives of the people around them.

After all that, learning to walk may prove to be easy.

[Maryan0]

I've heard about the Saudi story where they performed an operation on these twins that were attached in africa? The whole family and later the whole village converted to Islam. They did it in honour of the help they recieved from the muslims where as the rest of the village at the time thought the family was cursed and ostracized them. I dont think there was compulsion there. Saudi Arabia is Saudi Arabia and there'a not much else I can say about that country but their better than most other muslim countries in that they actually help other muslims money wise even though some question their motives ( like spreading their form of Islam) in doing so.
*edit I see you posted the article
Salam

[Trumble]

I can sympathize with anybody but I just cant sympathize with missionaries. They are vermin and if they all died I wouldnt care.

Except they wern't 'missionaries', they were medics, trying to save people's eyesight. . What part of that do you Talifans find so hard to grasp? .. sometimes you folks redefine the word 'gullible'. And even if they were distributing these imaginary Bibles, is Islam really so feeble a religion it is justifiable to slaughter 'missionaries' of other religions just to keep people believing in it?!

[Maryan0]

So they say. If they were truly medics than Allahu alam. This has nothing to with them trying to spread their religion but more to do with the conditions and manner they choose to do it in. You come into their country as occupiers and murderers and then have the audacity to try to spread your religion and expect to be welcomed with open arms. Afghanistan is a warzone.
What I find indeed gullible is how you people expect to be treated with respect and decency when you illegally occupy another nation and kill it's inhabitants on a daily basis. What part of leave Afghanistan do you people fail to grasp? no "medics" would die and neither would your soldiers.
Salam

[Rabi Mansur]

So they say. If they were truly medics than Allahu alam. This has nothing to with them trying to spread their religion but more to do with the conditions and manner they choose to do it in. You come into their country as occupiers and murderers and then have the audacity to try to spread your religion and expect to be welcomed with open arms. Afghanistan is a warzone.
What I find indeed gullible is how you people expect to be treated with respect and decency when you illegally occupy another nation and kill it's inhabitants on a daily basis. What part of leave Afghanistan do you people fail to grasp? no "medics" would die and neither would your soldiers.
Salam

:sl:
I believe that the doctor who was executed had lived in Afghanistan for 30 years. That was way before the US occupation. These people were not part of an occupation. The Taliban said that one of the reasons for the execution was because they had tried to convert some people to Christianity. Huh? We Muslims can see the hate in a false Christian group burning a Qur'an in Florida but then look the other way when the Taliban EXECUTE Christian missionaries? I don't get the logic here people.

Very inconsistent.

:wa:

[جوري]

Except they wern't 'missionaries', they were medics, trying to save people's eyesight. . What part of that do you Talifans find so hard to grasp? .. sometimes you folks redefine the word 'gullible'. And even if they were distributing these imaginary Bibles, is Islam really so feeble a religion it is justifiable to slaughter 'missionaries' of other religions just to keep people believing in it?!

''optometrist'' aren't medics, are they in your neck of the wood? what is an optometrist doing there? talk about hilarity, people can barely butter their bread from their poverty and decades of wars and they send over an optometrist?
I hope this is a lesson for anyone who wants to go to Afghanistan on a 'humanitarian mission' -- Do you feel equally bad when entire villages are bombed in pursuit of osama or the equally elusive easter bunny? or only when humanitarian optometrists on a divine mission are being killed?

I rejoice in no one's death but I really do hope this serves as a deterrent example to overzealous evangelists on a 'humanitarian mission'

[Maryan0]

:sl:
I believe that the doctor who was executed had lived in Afghanistan for 30 years. That was way before the US occupation. These people were not part of an occupation. The Taliban said that one of the reasons for the execution was because they had tried to convert some people to Christianity. Huh? We Muslims can see the hate in a false Christian group burning a Qur'an in Florida but then look the other way when the Taliban EXECUTE Christian missionaries? I don't get the logic here people.

Very inconsistent.

:wa:

I'm not advocating that my catholic neighbor who gives my family pamphlets die. Neither am I advocating the jehovah witness who knock on our doors early in the morning be killed also. But if you come to country as occupiers, kill my people and then try to take advantage of the weak in their time of need by acting helpful while you have ulterior motives than if you die that was risk you were willing to take and i'm not going to shed any tears over it. They may not have been preaching their religion but like I said before I would not put it past them to do so and many case has proven that they do. I'm from Somalia and there are European christians who can speak better somali than me because they have lived there for decades who still try to convert Somali's to christianity. I dislike those who take advantage of the plight of struggling people to propagate their religion.
Salam

[جوري]

^^^ speaking of which the evangies have been really laying it extra thick now a days so much for the ''war on terror''-- & speaking of desperation my sister constantly finds silly pamphlets in arabic on the prayer rug designated for muslims in her multi-denominational chapel of her hospital..

[Maryan0]

In arabic? very smart. They must have put alot of thought into it.
For some reason I constantly get approached by jehovah Witnesses. They'll even stop their cars park and walk all the way to where i'm standing just to talk to me. It's weird. It doesnt really happen to anyone else I know.
Salam

[aadil77]

^^^ speaking of which the evangies have been really laying it extra thick now a days so much for the ''war on terror''-- & speaking of desperation my sister constantly finds silly pamphlets in arabic on the prayer rug designated for muslims in her multi-denominational chapel of her hospital..

^desperate attempts to save a declining religion, tough times for christianity at the moment

[Rabi Mansur]

I dislike those who take advantage of the plight of struggling people to propagate their religion.

I understand. They feel that it is their calling from God Almighty to save the poor heathen. I live in the middle of a bunch of them. I even have family members who would adopt orphans in order to convert them to their own religion. Their intentions are honorable but they don't know any better. It is sad.
They carry around a sense of spiritual superiority and self-importance. But in reality they are deluded.

I wonder what will come out as far as the religious activities of this medical group. I still am sickened by what the Taliban did to them.

Salam

[Woodrow]

^desperate attempts to save a declining religion, tough times for christianity at the moment

:sl:

I also see an increase in the number of non-denominational Christian churches, which depend on getting converts to stay afloat. Along with the growing of the non-Christian, Christian denominations such as Mormons, and JWs both of which are viewed as not being Christian by many of the mainstream denominations. As the Mainstream looses members these 'outer limit" type groups seem to become more evangelical and seek to convert not only non-Christians but also the traditional mainstream Christians.

It becomes more difficult to identify who is a Christian these days. The differences in Christian denominations seems to broaden as the number of denominations increase. While the overall number of Christians seems to be decreasing the number of denominations seems to be increasing.

It does seem to be a time of desperation for many Christian denominations and desperate people can be quite radical.

It does seem Christianity is facing some very difficult days and we are witnessing the end of some denominations possibly even some of the long time traditional denominations, Catholicism may be experiencing the greatest decline:

Here are Jones' grim statistics of Catholicism's decline:

* Priests. While the number of priests in the United States more than doubled to 58,000, between 1930 and 1965, since then that number has fallen to 45,000. By 2020, there will be only 31,000 priests left, and more than half of these priests will be over 70.

* Ordinations. In 1965, 1,575 new priests were ordained in the United States. In 2002, the number was 450. In 1965, only 1 percent of U.S. parishes were without a priest. Today, there are 3,000 priestless parishes, 15 percent of all U.S. parishes.

* Seminarians. Between 1965 and 2002, the number of seminarians dropped from 49,000 to 4,700, a decline of over 90 percent. Two-thirds of the 600 seminaries that were operating in 1965 have now closed.

* Sisters. In 1965, there were 180,000 Catholic nuns. By 2002, that had fallen to 75,000 and the average age of a Catholic nun is today 68. In 1965, there were 104,000 teaching nuns. Today, there are 8,200, a decline of 94 percent since the end of Vatican II.

* Religious Orders. For religious orders in America, the end is in sight. In 1965, 3,559 young men were studying to become Jesuit priests. In 2000, the figure was 389. With the Christian Brothers, the situation is even more dire. Their number has shrunk by two-thirds, with the number of seminarians falling 99 percent. In 1965, there were 912 seminarians in the Christian Brothers. In 2000, there were only seven. The number of young men studying to become Franciscan and Redemptorist priests fell from 3,379 in 1965 to 84 in 2000.

* Catholic schools. Almost half of all Catholic high schools in the United States have closed since 1965. The student population has fallen from 700,000 to 386,000. Parochial schools suffered an even greater decline. Some 4,000 have disappeared, and the number of pupils attending has fallen below 2 million – from 4.5 million.

Though the number of U.S. Catholics has risen by 20 million since 1965, Jones' statistics show that the power of Catholic belief and devotion to the Faith are not nearly what they were.

* Catholic Marriage. Catholic marriages have fallen in number by one-third since 1965, while the annual number of annulments has soared from 338 in 1968 to 50,000 in 2002.

* Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

* Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a "symbolic reminder" of Jesus.

At the opening of Vatican II, reformers were all the rage. They were going to lead us out of our Catholic ghettos by altering the liturgy, rewriting the Bible and missals, abandoning the old traditions, making us more ecumenical, and engaging the world. And their legacy?

Four decades of devastation wrought upon the church, and the final disgrace of a hierarchy that lacked the moral courage of the Boy Scouts to keep the perverts out of the seminaries, and throw them out of the rectories and schools of Holy Mother Church.

Through the papacy of Pius XII, the church resisted the clamor to accommodate itself to the world and remained a moral beacon to mankind. Since Vatican II, the church has sought to meet the world halfway.

Jones' statistics tell us the price of appeasement.

SOURCE

Some if not many of those leaving Catholicism will be forming their own Churches and become very Evangelical in trying to get converts to what they believe Christianity is supposed to be. As the number of mainstream Christians decline, the larger number of independent evangelical types will appear.

[جوري]

In arabic? very smart. They must have put alot of thought into it.
For some reason I constantly get approached by jehovah Witnesses. They'll even stop their cars park and walk all the way to where i'm standing just to talk to me. It's weird. It doesnt really happen to anyone else I know.
Salam

actually it is very poorly written, I'll go retrieve the pamphlets from the garbage if my dad hasn't already taken out the trash to see if I can upload it here.. it is funny, starts with 'alyasoo3 mahaba' and some other crap of this nature.. usually when they stop me about the 'good news' I quote them Matthew 15:24 and ask them why they are not preaching their paganism to the Jews?.. it usually shuts them up for a moment enough for me to make my escape..

:w:

[Trumble]

''optometrist'' aren't medics, are they in your neck of the wood? what is an optometrist doing there? talk about hilarity, people can barely butter their bread from their poverty and decades of wars and they send over an optometrist?

Who mentioned "optometrists"?! Except you, that is.. or maybe all optometrists are medical doctors in your 'neck of the woods'. And maybe all dental technicians are dentists, too? You seem so desperate to justify the actions of this scum you are willing to resort to total fiction.

Let's have a look at some extracts from Dr Woo's Bridge Afghanistan blog, from before she was murdered.

Nuristan region of Afghanistan July 2010
I wanted to write to you directly regarding my upcoming trip to Nuristan, a remote province in Afghanistan. I will be trekking for over three weeks as part of a medical team in to the mountains of this inaccessible area to deliver medical care to the people living there. Working in conjunction with the International Assistance Mission (www.iam-afghanistan.org), an organisation that has been working in Afghanistan for over forty years, I will act as the team doctor and run the mother and child clinics once inside Nuristan. The expedition team also includes an eye doctor and a dental surgeon as well as me as the general physician.

Optometrists, huh?

I wondered if you might consider making a donation to support this expedition. The funds will be used to buy medicines and medical equipment and to fund the transport and logistics of the trek.

I am currently fundraising for this expedition – My target is $7000 USD, approximately £4,700 GBP

Afghanistan has the highest rates of maternal and infant mortality in the world; one in five children die before the age of one (World bank stats for 2008). The communities who live in these remote areas get no medical care at all, so we are hoping to be able to make a really big difference to the lives and livelihoods of the people that we meet there.

The trek will not be easy; it will take three weeks and be done on foot and with packhorses - no vehicles can access the mountainous terrain. The highest reaches of the mountains are at approximately 16,000 feet and snow covered.

The expedition will require a lot of physical and mental resolve and will not be without risk but ultimately, I believe that the provision of medical treatment is of fundamental importance and that the effort is worth it in order to assist those that need it most.

Starting from the province of Badakhshan in the North of Afghanistan we will load up packhorses and begin the walk up the Munjan valley, travelling through another valley takes us to a pass that leads into the Parun Valley. We will begin at about 7,000ft, ascend to almost 16,000ft before dropping down to around 9,500 ft for our final destination. The total walking distance will be 120 miles round trip.
We will be dealing with a population of around 50,000 people in the region, many of whom will travel to meet us along the way to be given medical care. The Munjan population are Ismaili Muslims while the Nuristanis are Sunni and of a distinct cultural background. Common ailments include respiratory infections, parasites, worms, and skin infections as well as more seriously debilitating conditions such as cataracts, malnutrition, traumatic injuries, and child birthing injuries.

Hmm.. not there to sell tinted bi-focals after all, maybe...

Afghan Aid (ITV Report )
A doctor from London is organising an airlift of medical supplies to Afghanistan, where she's setting up a clinic in a women's prison. Some of the supplies stockpiled by Karen Woo come from British hospitals... which would usually destroy them if they weren't used. Doctor Woo quit her job here in London so she could work in the war-torn country. Thanks to her efforts and those of her organisation, called "Bridge Afghanistan", forty pallets of medical supplies will be landing in the Afghan capital, Kabul, later this week.

Associate medical director Karen Woo (pictured) has swapped a comfortable job with private healthcare firm BUPA for aid work and film-making in Afghanistan.

Currently in Kabul making a documentary and delivering medical supplies collected in the UK, Dr Woo told 'BMA News' she was ‘flat broke and living in a war zone’ but enjoying helping people in great need. On graduating from medical school, she commenced surgical training before joining BUPA.

She now works for medical evacuations company Remote Medical Solutions International, and is leading Bridge Afghanistan — a non-profit organisation delivering, and making a documentary about, aid in the country. For more details about donating medical supplies or funds to Bridge Afghanistan, contact THE BRIDGE AFGHANISTAN

Unusual CV for an 'optometrist', hmm?

And here's the 'missionary's' personal blog. Read, and weep.

I rejoice in no one's death but I really do hope this serves as a deterrent example to overzealous evangelists on a 'humanitarian mission'

There is no suggestion ANYWHERE that this was an evangelical or missionary group, except from the BS spouted by their murderers. Despite your BS, they were not 'optometrists'. Unfortunately the only people this is likely to deter are other people actually trying to HELP the Afghan people rather than kill them in the name of politics or God.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Salam

I did read her blog. I woke up this morning and still dont agree with the attack on unarmed people with little proof that they were there to convert people apart what the taliban have said. If anything the taliban could have kept them hostage.

Allah (swt) knows best

[جوري]

Who mentioned "optometrists"?! Except you, that is.. or maybe all optometrists are medical doctors in your 'neck of the woods'. And maybe all dental technicians are dentists, too? You seem so desperate to justify the actions of this scum you are willing to resort to total fiction.

You called them 'medics' there to help people see.. optometrists aren't 'medics' fitting people who don't have food to eat in glasses seems questionable at best.. I am not desperate for anything that is a projection of your own guilt which you desire to magnify when suits you and neglect when suits you -- I don't know how you personally justify all the afghan killings around the clock and wonder if you'd google mother with child to elicit some sort of reaction, I find it appalling at best that you consider the afghans (Iraqis, Palestinians, Chechen etc.) who are invaded less than human, and folks whose presence there is questionable the only humans worthy of our feelings.. Sorry, you don't shed tears over those you have invaded and perpetuate the propaganda to justify their presence there, then no tears will be shed over yours and let it serve as a lesson to others whatever their 'noble' purpose is there to get out or face similar consequence!

Let's have a look at some extracts from Dr Woo's Bridge Afghanistan blog, from before she was murdered.

What should I make of this exactly?

Optometrists, huh?

yes optometrist..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...ed_in_afg.html

Hmm.. not there to sell tinted bi-focals after all, maybe...

you know this because? all the missions there have been incredibly innocuous thus far and people are so honest in their news reporting?

do you need a definition of the term otherwise?

Unusual CV for an 'optometrist', hmm?

There is no suggestion ANYWHERE that this was an evangelical or missionary group, except from the BS spouted by their murderers. Despite your BS, they were not 'optometrists'. Unfortunately the only people this is likely to deter are other people actually trying to HELP the Afghan people rather than kill them in the name of politics or God.

Are you picking and choosing whom you desire to highlight for your little expedition? Don't want to lose your head or limb in Afghanistan don't go to Afghanistan, it is simple!
and to put this in the simplest terms we Muslims are accustomed to hearing after seeing villages of innocence wiped out ''casualties of war'' without so much as batting an eye lash!
No one in Afghanistan wants or needs your help, you want to help them, then get out, take your greed, your machines, your filth, your moral debauchery your so-called democracy and 'humanitarian efforts' and your personal polls that echo what you want, not what the afghanis wants out.. I don't see how folks could use the help of those who drop bombs and foods on them in different colored packages..

Food or Cluster Bomb?
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1030-11.htm
all the best

[Trumble]

What should I make of this exactly?

The obvious fact that this organization was not there to distribute Bibles, but to help the sick. Try opening your eyes before attempting to read.

yes optometrist..

My apologies, there was indeed one optometrist. Gee, maybe he was giving the kids eye-tests. Now, what about the rest of them.. you know, the doctors and the dentist murdered by your Taliban heros?

Are you picking and choosing whom you desire to highlight for your little expedition?

Nope. The blogs are there for all to see. Point out the bible-bashers, please.

No one in Afghanistan wants or needs your help, you want to help them, then get out, take your greed, your machines, your filth, your moral debauchery your so-called democracy and 'humanitarian efforts' and your personal polls that echo what you want, not what the afghanis wants out..

Despite your continuing BS and spurious waffle, people DO both want and need such help, not only in Afghanistan but elsewhere. I guess you missed the part about some of them having been there for thirty years, you know, helping people?

[جوري]

The obvious fact that this organization was not there to distribute Bibles, but to help the sick. Try opening your eyes before attempting to read.

Where in my post did I write, 'they were there to distribute bibles?'

My apologies, there was indeed one optometrist. Gee, maybe he was giving the kids eye-tests. Now, what about the rest of them.. you know, the doctors and the dentist murdered by your Taliban heros?

What authority does an optometrist have to give the kid eye tests? how smarmy.. optometrists fit folks for glasses, how that translates to being a 'doctor' is really beyond, how about some basic vaccines, food without bombs before fitting folks for glasses or repairing stone statues?

Nope. The blogs are there for all to see. Point out the bible-bashers, please.

I have no clue what this statement is supposed to denote?

Despite your continuing BS and spurious waffle, people DO both want and need such help, not only in Afghanistan but elsewhere. I guess you missed the part about some of them having been there for thirty years, you know, helping people?

I didn't write the articles about bombs + food droppings for you to consider it 'waffle or pancakes' It is unfortunately the reality these people have to deal with.. your troops aren't able to distinguish civilians from 'islamist/terrorist/extremist/fundamentalist/easterbunny/osama' with all your sophisticated equipments, in fact I'd go so far to say sophisticated equipments are used for the exact purpose of the genocide of Muslims.. so don't be all upset like when your helpful noble folks are executed in a similar fashion!

all the best

[Trumble]

What authority does an optometrist have to give the kid eye tests? how smarmy.. optometrists fit folks for glasses, how that translates to being a 'doctor' is really beyond, how about some basic vaccines, food without bombs before fitting folks for glasses or repairing stone statues?

It doesn't translate to being a doctor. However, as the definition of an optometrist is;

optometrist, oculist (a person skilled in testing for defects of vision in order to prescribe corrective glasses)

(Princeton)

... I really don't know what you are gibbering on about. I seem to need to repeat that ONE of those murdered was an optometrist, whether he was or was not the 'eye doctor' referred to I don't know. Maybe it's important to another doctor, but to me the point is trivial. Maybe he did the eye tests and the dentist moonlighted grinding the lenses and adjusting the designer frames?

I didn't write the articles about bombs + food droppings for you to consider it 'waffle or pancakes' It is unfortunately the reality these people have to deal with.. your troops aren't able to distinguish civilians from 'islamist/terrorist/extremist/fundamentalist/easterbunny/osama' with all your sophisticated equipments, in fact I'd go so far to say sophisticated equipments are used for the exact purpose of the genocide of Muslims.. so don't be all upset like when your helpful noble folks are executed in a similar fashion!

It is waffle because it is totally irrelevant to the topic. They are not 'my' troops any more than they are yours, or Karen Woo's. Condemnation of one does not imply approval of the other or, as the old saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right.

[جوري]

It doesn't translate to being a doctor. However, as the definition of an optometrist is;

(Princeton)

... I really don't know what you are gibbering on about. I seem to need to repeat that ONE of those murdered was an optometrist, whether he was or was not the 'eye doctor' referred to I don't know. Maybe it's important to another doctor, but to me the point is trivial. Maybe he did the eye tests and the dentist moonlighted grinding the lenses and adjusting the designer frames?

The importance of it is really simple and it is a wonder that it escapes you at all, if you need bread, water and basic vaccines then you'll have no use for a specialized dermato-pathologist, an allergist and by the same token no use for an optometrist unless you are there to serve another purpose whatever it maybe. Surely more prominent folks in the 'civilized west' have lost their heads for suggesting the impoverished eat cake when they don't have bread!

It is waffle because it is totally irrelevant to the topic. They are not 'my' troops any more than they are yours, or Karen Woo's. Condemnation of one does not imply approval of the other or, as the old saying goes, two wrongs do not make a right.

Actually it is quite relevant to the topic, and hopefully serves to highlight that foreign troops or lay folks' presence isn't for the humanitarian efforts they like to display-- as for what their purpose is, well if you don't want to scratch beyond the surface, then don't be surprised if the locals are lining you up execution style.. I do agree with you two wrongs don't make a right, my astonishment really stems from your gore like reaction to what would otherwise be considered 'casualties of war' and not loaning the same outrage when entire villages are being bombed, or bombs are being dropped down on children along with food, is it that this mother in the photo is better dressed than the afghan/Iraqi/Palestinian women that it has touched your heart while those other smelly, unkempt ruffians deserve your contempt or at least apathy and neglect?


all the best

[nousername]

Ok we know that their are a lot of suffering in Afghanistan due to the invasion, however do the Taliban not want any medical assistance? because of the decades of war in Afghanistan they are unable to produce any medical treatments or medicine, so if someone shows up to help, they should die, because they are western?I thought it was against sharia law to kill non-combatants

[جوري]

Ok we know that their are a lot of suffering in Afghanistan due to the invasion, however do the Taliban not want any medical assistance? because of the decades of war in Afghanistan they are unable to produce any medical treatments or medicine, so if someone shows up to help, they should die, because they are western?I thought it was against sharia law to kill non-combatants

How do you propose an optometrist offer medical attention or medicine? The people who need treatments most aren't receiving it, and we'd all be collectively delusional to propose that a group of missionaries are there to offer such services, or at least offer them without outside expectations!

this is a realistic picture of what they do in Afghanistan:





you are deluding yourself to believe that there is another purpose behind their presence there!

If you have a service to offer the afghanis, then please go there yourself and help in lieu of delegating the task to non-Muslims and if not then let those people be!

:w:

[Woodrow]

:sl:

Not actually trying to derail this thread, but injecting a new thought in this thread related to the opening post and the role of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Just a general statement to start.

Are the Taliban an effective means of getting the invaders out of Afghanistan?

Does the warfare of today's mechanized militery even require ground troops or ground personnel to control and invade a nation? Warfare has changed rapidly since I was last in the military and the biggest changes have been in the past 10 years. I do not see where it is now necessary for an invader to have troops on the ground in the invaded nation. It seems that the visible ground invaders are little more than pawns sent to misdirect the Taliban into concentrating on fighting them.

Warfare is rapidly changing and fast moving away from ground troops. I first became aware of this a few days ago while reading a magazine in the Doctors office and saw that the US military is recruiting many thousands of drone pilots. It seems that Drone aircraft are cheap to make, have no need of safety features or climate control and the pilot can be safely seated at a computer desk thousands of miles from the war zone. The hand writing is all the wall, the ground soldier is becoming obsolete.

I found this on a website:

The Predator pilots, who flew their planes from an Air Force base outside Las Vegas, received a thank-you note from a three-star general based in the Middle East. Senior Air Force officials concluded that even though the Predator crews were flying combat missions, they weren’t in combat.

Four years later, the Air Force still hasn’t come up with a way to recognize the Predator’s contributions in Afghanistan and Iraq. “There is no valor in flying a remotely piloted aircraft. I get it,’’ said Colonel Luther “Trey’’ Turner, a former fighter pilot who has flown Predators since 2003. “But there needs to be an award to recognize crews for combat missions.’’

SOURCE

The Drones are here to stay and as things develop the further from the war zone soldiers need be. In fact it is a strong incentive to pull out all invading soldiers as that makes the entire country a feasible target for saturation and carpet bombing with no fear of an aggressor killing his own troops. A predator pilot could safely fly his plane in Afghanistan without even leaving the comfort of his living room in his quiet Hawaii beach side condo. Sanitized murder with out getting one drop of blood accidentally spilled onto the glass of wine being drunk while blasting away at defenseless people on the video screen.

Warfare is Changing are the methods of the Taliban adaptable to the changes? or will the Taliban unknowingly set the stage to benefit the aggressor by being certain there are no invaders remining in Afghanistan.

Removal of the invaders, may be a bigger threat to Afghanistan then the invaders are. In tomorrow's battles the invaders will not see or feel the pains of those who suffer and war is becoming no more of a danger to them than a video game played safely at home. Except in this video game real people will be suffering thousands of miles away.

[aadil77]

^The taliban do need to upgrade their weapons, I doubt they'll be able to carry on shooting down aircraft with rpg's. Their old american given stingers are probably obsolete, if only pakistan were to donate some of those knockoff stingers....

[Woodrow]

^The taliban do need to upgrade their weapons, I doubt they'll be able to carry on shooting down aircraft with rpg's. Their old american given stingers are probably obsolete, if only pakistan were to donate some of those knockoff stingers....

:sl:


Except shooting down pilot less drones has little effect. They just crash and the munitionss still detonate, just not at the selected target. As if they was any real concern to keep the drones from hitting non-military targets. The drones are rapidly replaced. Last I heard Pakistan is it the process of buying several hundred drones to use against the Taliban in the swat provinces. Sales to Saudi, Egypt, and the UAE are also in progress.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/militar...-pakistan.html

http://trueslant.com/nealungerleider...abia-pakistan/

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...n-mideast.html

http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/...edator-drones/

The stingers and other weapons designed for the purpose of killing people are getting to be useless in this new warfare. Face to face combat is becoming a thing of the past. The old weapons(anything over 10 years old) is becoming useless except for killing non-combatants.

The day of the soldier is over. This is now having to fight mechanical, non-living invaders, and the enemy suffers no real loss suffers if they get destroyed before they kill innocents.

Is the Taliban an effective method of eliminating this threat or will the fighting methods used by them become a hindrance for Afghanistan instead of a help?

[Zafran]

^The taliban do need to upgrade their weapons, I doubt they'll be able to carry on shooting down aircraft with rpg's. Their old american given stingers are probably obsolete, if only pakistan were to donate some of those knockoff stingers....

Salaam

why would pakistan help Afghanistan it needs help itself with the flood crisis.

peace.

[aadil77]

Salaam

why would pakistan help Afghanistan it needs help itself with the flood crisis.

peace.

flood crisis does not change pakistani policies, it doesn't stop the ISI from supplying weapons like they did back in the soviet war

[Lynx]

flood crisis does not change pakistani policies, it doesn't stop the ISI from supplying weapons like they did back in the soviet war

this is true. pakistan has always had a vested interest in afghan politics hence the existence of their puppet regime the Taliban.

i've not known the taliban to have killed missionaries in the past , let alone aid workers. kind of weird.

[Zafran]

flood crisis does not change pakistani policies, it doesn't stop the ISI from supplying weapons like they did back in the soviet war

Salaam

Now the policies have changed thanks to Zardari - It would be heavily counter productive for them to help the Taleban. The only people that can help them are the terrorists in pakistan.

peace

[Trumble]

you are deluding yourself to believe that there is another purpose behind their presence there!

You have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that these people were missionaries and not medics, and there is copious evidence to the contrary. The idea that somehow the requirement to see properly doesn't constitute a significant medical need (something I well understand due to my own extreme myopia) I find absolutely laughable, even if the screening for diseases such as glaucoma did not form an essential part of such tests ... and as already been established that is hardly all they were doing. I'm afraid a vid of some other people somewhere else just doesn't cut it.

It is you, I'm afraid, who is so sadly 'deluded'.

[ابن آل مرة]

Those medics got what they deserved. I hope the fatalities of NATO and U.S. troops will increase in great number. American Govt. likes to make themselves look like they are the peaceful and everyone else is mischievous. They try to impose self-rigtheousness after they attack any country by sending aid, troops giving the kids candy and all that crap. InshaAllah, by the help of Allah the mujahideen will gain victory over the enemy of Islam.

[جوري]

You have failed to provide any evidence whatsoever that these people were missionaries and not medics, and there is copious evidence to the contrary. The idea that somehow the requirement to see properly doesn't constitute a significant medical need (something I well understand due to my own extreme myopia) I find absolutely laughable, even if the screening for diseases such as glaucoma did not form an essential part of such tests ... and as already been established that is hardly all they were doing. I'm afraid a vid of some other people somewhere else just doesn't cut it.

It is you, I'm afraid, who is so sadly 'deluded'.

I don't need to be slapped in the face with a purpose of a mission to understand what it is about! It is sad that we substitute brains for technology now a days. Your naivete or purposeful blindness is something you'll have to workout on your own private time! The Optometrist was a U.S guy, they have no authority to write prescriptions here for anything other than fit folks for glasses, they have no authority to diagnose diseases (which may very well be rampant) and again, you don't need ancillary luxuries when you don't have the basics (they call them doctors the same way they call chiropractors doctors) neither are licensed physicians with the authority to diagnose, treat disease or manage patients-- further those who wish to do good work abroad join reputable institutions like doctors without borders, that is if they are truly there to provide urgent medical care!.. Does Afghanistan not have regular doctors for them to send an optometrist or whatever else from overseas?

you are free to believe as you desire, it won't change the fact of the matter, it won't change videos that have leaked and are leaking in non mainstream media outlets, and it won't change the fact that fools like them will chance it if they go to Afghanistan under whatever good Samaritan guise, it also won't elicit emotions out of the rest of us, we have been desensitized with death every day!

all the best

[nihil est]

NPR has some info about what these people did. I can't post a link yet, but you can google NPR and find it that way.

Compelling stories are emerging about the lives of those who were among the 10 members of a medical aid team murdered in northern Afghanistan last week.

American Tom Little, for example, had spent nearly all of the last 31 years in the country — through the Russian invasion, civil wars, Taliban take-over and the post-9/11 toppling of that regime by U.S. and coalition forces. An eye doctor, Little and his wife Libby raised three daughters while living and working in Afghanistan. They brought eye care and glasses to people in some of the poorest and most remote areas on the planet.

These people were worth more than my miserable life. What do I do for humanity? Nothing. These people helped improve lives.

[جوري]

NPR has some info about what these people did. I can't post a link yet, but you can google NPR and find it that way.

These people were worth more than my miserable life. What do I do for humanity? Nothing. These people helped improve lives.

you should find a news outlet that tells you of the lives destroyed by your occupation as well.. others are mothers, uncles, daughters, working individuals, communities, lives snuffed in their prime.. ask where the humanity is in that, and if you can't find it, then bring your good Samaritans home to help the locals where humanity counts better!

[nihil est]

I notice you did nothing to challenge my point. What do you do to help people? Can you even imagine dedicating 30 years of your life to helping another person, moving your family to another country and raising your children there so that you could bring the gift of sight to people?

[titus]

and it won't change the fact that fools like them will chance it if they go to Afghanistan under whatever good Samaritan guise, it also won't elicit emotions out of the rest of us, we have been desensitized with death every day!

If the above is true then that good Samaritan was most likely much more sensitized to death than you in your private school in the US.

While you denigrate him for not being a "real" doctor he was there trying to help people. He made a real commitment.

- further those who wish to do good work abroad join reputable institutions like doctors without borders, that is if they are truly there to provide urgent medical care!

Doctors Without Borders is no longer in Afghanistan since they had members killed there. The killings were claimed by the Taliban.

Does Afghanistan not have regular doctors for them to send an optometrist or whatever else from overseas?

The majority of citizens of Afghanistan are illiterate, and the Taliban has destroyed over 150 schools in the last year. That makes it hard to educate homegrown doctors.

And with the few people that do volunteer to help being targeted for death then yes, I am sure it is difficult to get many people from overseas to go help.

[جوري]

I notice you did nothing to challenge my point.

How does one challenge your personal opinion?

What do you do to help people?

Who are you for me to share my list of deeds with? further, is it common in the west to publish ones good deeds seeking other people's approval?

that isn't how it works in Islam:

2:271-- If you do deeds of charity openly, it is well; but if you bestow it upon the needy in secret, it will be even better for you, and it will atone for some of your bad deeds. And God is aware of all that you do.

Can you even imagine dedicating 30 years of your life to helping another person, moving your family to another country and raising your children there so that you could bring the gift of sight to people?

God brings the gift of sight, not optometrists, and given that I have traveled and lived in the far east,middle east and Africa doing what I do through proper means, I say I developed enough sense to know who needs help and who doesn't while clearly defining my agenda as opposed to imposing it!

If the above is true then that good Samaritan was most likely much more sensitized to death than you in your private school in the US.

You know this how? because they died a little death every day and then one day had a real death in their sheltered compounds? It would be amazing indeed for these selfless crusaders to have braved the taliban and survived for '30 years' if indeed your speculations are true!

While you denigrate him for not being a "real" doctor he was there trying to help people. He made a real commitment.

Again, a personal opinion that has no basis in reality whatsoever. I don't denigrate him for his job even a shoe mender has something to offer, I question the legitimacy and agenda of sending an optometrist to a place that has no use for him!

Doctors Without Borders is no longer in Afghanistan since they had members killed there. The killings were claimed by the Taliban.

hopefully this random killing will serve to drive more foreigners out!

The majority of citizens of Afghanistan are illiterate, and the Taliban has destroyed over 150 schools in the last year. That makes it hard to educate homegrown doctors.

Really how do you know this? fox news or sky TV? you are funny!
go ahead and google me a laundry list of propagandist B.S

And with the few people that do volunteer to help being targeted for death then yes, I am sure it is difficult to get many people from overseas to go help.

Then perhaps you should take a hint that your volunteer work is not welcome there!

all the best

[Zafran]

It would be nice to see some sources of all these numbers that are being posted.

[جوري]

It would be nice to see some sources of all these numbers that are being posted.

All you really need is for one of them to google a pic of a teddy bar, mother with child and write some bombastic emotional bull and then have it passed out as facts.. That is how they appease themselves and justify their carnage while making those occupied into villains!

2:11 When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only want to make peace!"
2:12 Are not they indeed the mischief-makers? But they perceive not.


sob7an Allah, how their psychology is the same throughout the centuries!

[aadil77]

i've not known the taliban to have killed missionaries in the past , let alone aid workers. kind of weird.

probably cause there weren't any missionaries dumb enough to enter afghanistan

[Argamemnon]

There is no suggestion ANYWHERE that this was an evangelical or missionary group, except from the BS spouted by their murderers. Despite your BS, they were not 'optometrists'. Unfortunately the only people this is likely to deter are other people actually trying to HELP the Afghan people rather than kill them in the name of politics or God.

Why do you suddenly seem to care so much about one human life when you clearly don't have the slightest sympathy for those Muslims who are being killed everyday through sanctions and invasions and massacres? Don't you think that people are noticing what you're doing, what would your Buddha say to this attitude? Why are you always defending the killers of Muslims but when a non-Muslim is killed you suddenly become an extremely "humane" person?

[Argamemnon]

So what if one non-Muslim was killed (not that I condone it)? Do people in the West cry and mourn for EVERY Muslim victim who was slaughtered by terrorist western armies?

[جوري]

Seriously, I mean so what if one non-Muslim was killed (not that I condone it)? Do people in the West cry and mourn for EVERY Muslim victim who is slaughtered by terrorist western armies?

No because they stand for 'truth, justice and the comics' of course!

I think it is fair game for any foreign invaders to be target whilst the locals are under siege!

:w:

[aadil77]

Pure double standards, as you can see members who remain silent on the deaths of thousands of muslims are now getting all emotional and vocal when 7-8 of their own fellow non-muslims are killed.

[Zafran]

Salaam

I have to agree on this point - They cry when one Brit, american or Nato person dies but when innocent Aghans die - no comment. We dont even know who they were and what were there names Just a number.

peace

[Lynx]

probably cause there weren't any missionaries dumb enough to enter afghanistan

I remember an incident that occured a few years ago where 2 American women were held captive by the Taliban but were later set free. I think* they were missionaries.

No because they stand for 'truth, justice and the comics' of course!

I think it is fair game for any foreign invaders to be target whilst the locals are under siege!

:w:

this is interesting. i suppose the native afghan folk that run the 'northern alliance' as the west calls them, have every right to kill the family members of all non-afghan Taliban since they are foreign force oppressing the locals.

[Rhubarb Tart]

Two afghan Muslims did die in this attack too.

Two Afghans were killed; Mahram Ali, an Afghan driver, and Jawed, who had only one name.

Taliban is not the only group claiming to have carried out the attack. Now another Islamic group also claimed to have done it.

http://www.channel4.com/news/article...deaths/3739382

Two wrongs don’t make right. I do agree the western media really don’t bother mentioning Afghans names unless they have been a victim of Taliban like the girl in the times. It was her dad but she said it was due to the “Taliban”. Allah (swt) knows best

[جوري]

this is interesting. i suppose the native afghan folk that run the 'northern alliance' as the west calls them, have every right to kill the family members of all non-afghan Taliban since they are foreign force oppressing the locals.

I don't condone nor does Islam condone the killing of civilians (women, children, elderly) contrary to other 'divinely inspired' religions there is ethics in warfare, however, I utterly and completely understand why they are doing it, and hazard say under the same circumstance if it were my country under invasion and I am destitute and devoid of any semblance of a normal life or hopes for it and for centuries filled of wars and illegal occupations, I'd be out for the random kill everyday as well!

problem is, Afghanistan for all its resources which the west desires to get its paws into, really have nothing, no media to showcase their daily horrors, no soap and clean water to polish themselves and kids up for the TV camera to seek your sympathy, no teddy bears to be scattered about for the camera crew to focus on.. no sympathies are only exhibited for those well-kempt, well fed family folks who are suddenly, sadly and unjustly snatched away from the arms of their loved ones.. Afghanis/Iraqis/palis, etc. unfortunately don't get similar outcry for obvious reasons.. to the west they deserve less than dogs, and please don't attempt at an otherwise answer, the mere fact that these places are occupied for decades if not centuries is a testament to the ongoing double standard!

so don't act so surprised if a few foreigners get lined up every now and then for an execution!

all the best

[ابن آل مرة]

I find it useless to argue with animals, because they dont reply or usually just bark back. We make threads and threads, post after post,topic after topic. Its just a cycle after every major attack takes place in a war or a unjustified attack by kuffar in the muslim lands. The best thing to do is make dua, follow the Commands of Allah, and the saheeh sunnah, and the way of the companions. If all muslims do that, and not deviate from those things, victory will surely come by the will of Allah. you see there are some scholars who try to implement all those things, which is the true way, but the media, and the deviant muslim themselves call them extremist or khawarij, mubtadi n other names. Without mentioning any names, we know who the Ulama are and the sheikhs who speak against hypocrites who support kufr. They are the ones who are being jailed in muslim lands by the presidents or kings. They are the ones who are wanted by western governments, they are ones who are looked upon as terrorist. Fatwas are being given by ignorant people,making the fatwa halal and use it in wrong way and for self-profiting purposes by the so called scholars. The true sunnah of our beloved prophet is being rarely practiced even in the holy mosques. How can we expect victory and power over the disbelievers when the so called scholars who are looked upon as examples and heroes not following real teachings of Islam.

[titus]

Pure double standards, as you can see members who remain silent on the deaths of thousands of muslims are now getting all emotional and vocal when 7-8 of their own fellow non-muslims are killed.

If you believe that about my posts then you misunderstand the point I was making in my posts.

Also realize the double standard that many Muslims have on this forum.

They praise foreign invaders if they are Muslims, but demonize them if they are non-Muslim. In fact they praise the Muslim foreigners that go to kill, yet call the non-Muslims that go to help idiots. They praise, or at the least excuse, those Muslim groups that target Afghan civilians, yet don't believe anyone should get upset at the targeted killing of doctors that are there to help the poor get medical treatment.

[جوري]

How do you personally define enemies vs. people out to help during wartime?
and is that way so many of your own kin are killed in friendly fires along with nameless afghans of whom a great deal murdered or indoctrinated into man worship are children!

again with the optometrists helping people get medical treatment.. a shame for all of us who invested 8 yrs in medical school and 3-7 in a residency to have incurred all that debt and wasted all those years if that is all it takes to offer 'medical treatment'

[titus]

How do you personally define enemies vs. people out to help during wartime?

I certainly would not define aid workers or doctors as enemies.

How do you define them? What, in your opinion, should make them a target?

gain with the optometrists helping people get medical treatment.. a shame for all of us who invested 8 yrs in medical school and 3-7 in a residency to have incurred all that debt and wasted all those years if that is all it takes to offer 'medical treatment'

Actually I was referring more to the Doctors Without Borders doctors that were murdered. Funny, though, how you seem more offended that he is being called a doctor than that he was killed.

[جوري]

I certainly would not define aid workers or doctors as enemies.

what about afghan children, are they the enemy, because it doesn't seem to make much difference to your troops if at all the stories leak and are reported .. God only knows what doesn't get reported!

How do you define them? What, in your opinion, should make them a target?

I don't live in Afghanistan and not familiar with their activities there- surely those who have targeted them are best suited to answer your queries!

Actually I was referring more to the Doctors Without Borders doctors that were murdered. Funny, though, how you seem more offended that he is being called a doctor than that he was killed.

I am offended that folks parade around as something other than what they are for secondary gain, and even if offering medical treatment how sub par it would be considering what plagues Afghanistan is completely out of the spectacle maker's sphere of expertise!

[Argamemnon]

If you believe that about my posts then you misunderstand the point I was making in my posts.

Also realize the double standard that many Muslims have on this forum.

They praise foreign invaders if they are Muslims, but demonize them if they are non-Muslim. In fact they praise the Muslim foreigners that go to kill, yet call the non-Muslims that go to help idiots. They praise, or at the least excuse, those Muslim groups that target Afghan civilians, yet don't believe anyone should get upset at the targeted killing of doctors that are there to help the poor get medical treatment.

Don't be silly, westerners are not helping Muslims, they never did throughout history and never will. They are merely plundering Muslim lands and natural resources and are trying to change and undermine our religion. We know that there are entire armies of missionaries in Iraq and Afghanistan who came immediately after the invasions. Approximately a hundred thousand Iraqis were converted to Christianity (with money). It's a war against Islam as well as for "strategic" reasons, such as controlling natural resources amongst others.

[aadil77]

If you believe that about my posts then you misunderstand the point I was making in my posts.

Also realize the double standard that many Muslims have on this forum.

They praise foreign invaders if they are Muslims, but demonize them if they are non-Muslim. In fact they praise the Muslim foreigners that go to kill, yet call the non-Muslims that go to help idiots. They praise, or at the least excuse, those Muslim groups that target Afghan civilians, yet don't believe anyone should get upset at the targeted killing of doctors that are there to help the poor get medical treatment.

Muslims cannot be invaders in muslim lands - they are fully welcome as they are our brothers and sisters.

Non-muslims are not automatically welcome into muslims lands without first seeking permission from the legitimate ruler - then they'll be granted security.

[Argamemnon]

Non-Muslims saying that the West is helping Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq is extremely insulting. It's like claiming that the Zionist occupiers are only there to help Palestinians. If I was a moderator here I would ban all of you at once.

[Zafran]

salaam

When did someone praise "muslim invaders" in Afghanistan?

The only invading that has been taking place after 9/11 is Nato's invasions.

peace

[جوري]

Non-Muslims saying that the West is helping Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq is extremely insulting. It's like claiming that the Zionist occupiers are only there to help Palestinians. If I was a moderator here I would ban all of you at once.

:haha: I second that ban.. if for nothing else, but merely wasting our time on nonsense.. wonder if they yap away like that on the ills they cause, there is a book that would never end!

:w:

[Lynx]

Muslims cannot be invaders in muslim lands - they are fully welcome as they are our brothers and sisters.

Non-muslims are not automatically welcome into muslims lands without first seeking permission from the legitimate ruler - then they'll be granted security.

even if Muslims were always welcomed into other Muslim lands that does not excuse them to go into someone's home in order to implement better 'islam'. sadly , the taliban are just a Pakistani puppet regime no better than the NATO forces. let the afghan people run themselves however they want to be run. the reason why Afghanistan is in shambles is because other countries can't get their noses out of the country. Whether it's the Soviets or the British or the Arabs, Afghanistan is caught dead center. the taliban were incompetent leaders that had no business running a government.

Lily:

I don't condone nor does Islam condone the killing of civilians (women, children, elderly) contrary to other 'divinely inspired' religions there is ethics in warfare, however, I utterly and completely understand why they are doing it, and hazard say under the same circumstance if it were my country under invasion and I am destitute and devoid of any semblance of a normal life or hopes for it and for centuries filled of wars and illegal occupations, I'd be out for the random kill everyday as well!

yep..i get the reason, and guess what? the taliban is a foreign force too! I guess you should start condemning their illegal occupation of Afghanistan now, right?

problem is, Afghanistan for all its resources which the west desires to get its paws into, really have nothing, no media to showcase their daily horrors, no soap and clean water to polish themselves and kids up for the TV camera to seek your sympathy, no teddy bears to be scattered about for the camera crew to focus on..

Actually they do have media that showcase the daily horrors and children's shows and all that. The only thing is you don't see that on CNN cause CNN is American News for an American audience.

no sympathies are only exhibited for those well-kempt, well fed family folks who are suddenly, sadly and unjustly snatched away from the arms of their loved ones.. Afghanis/Iraqis/palis, etc. unfortunately don't get similar outcry for obvious reasons.. to the west they deserve less than dogs, and please don't attempt at an otherwise answer, the mere fact that these places are occupied for decades if not centuries is a testament to the ongoing double standard!

Of course it's a double standard. If I ran CNN I would show news that will get me ratings otherwise I will be cut off air. If you watch Afghan or Iranian TV or Chinese TV (I guess) it'll be about their countries.

so don't act so surprised if a few foreigners get lined up every now and then for an execution!

I am not surprised. Aid workers have been dying in Afhganistan/Iraq/Africa forever. It's a risk that these people take when they try to help people. But obviously, the fact that these events are inevitable don't make them excusable.

[جوري]

yep..i get the reason, and guess what? the taliban is a foreign force too! I guess you should start condemning their illegal occupation of Afghanistan now, right?

There are no borders or passports amongst Muslims, that is a British institution meant to divide and conquer, they were quite successful at it, but true Muslims don't buy into it!
what do you think is the true reason there are foreign forces in the Muslim world? Do you think out of the goodness of their heart? They are just benevolent?

Actually they do have media that showcase the daily horrors and children's shows and all that. The only thing is you don't see that on CNN cause CNN is American News for an American audience.

Yeah, I believe the British reporter called it Propaganda, but that of course doesn't go both ways, when she is dispensing with opinion while sitting in their midst and eating their food, that is honest reporting, when they are taking pictures of the carnage, their ravaged homes and dead children, it is propaganda!

I am not surprised. Aid workers have been dying in Afhganistan/Iraq/Africa forever. It's a risk that these people take when they try to help people. But obviously, the fact that these events are inevitable don't make them excusable.

Indeed, they are called 'casualties of war'!

all the best

try fasting a day with us Lynx :shade:

[nihil est]

Non-Muslims saying that the West is helping Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq is extremely insulting. It's like claiming that the Zionist occupiers are only there to help Palestinians. If I was a moderator here I would ban all of you at once.

Lucky then that you aren't!

[Pygoscelis]

There are no borders or passports amongst Muslims, that is a British institution meant to divide and conquer, they were quite successful at it, but true Muslims don't buy into it!

Usually it is your outgroup hate that sticks out but here it is your ingroup blind faith. The west certainly has its abuses and its selfish motives, but the west is not the only one out to screw over places like Afghanistan. Just because somebody claims to be muslim doesn't mean they are your friend or have your best interests at heart.

The unseen enemy, the enemy within, is often the most dangerous. It is like that saying "Tyrany will come to America holding a bible and waving an American flag". Just because people try to fit into your ingroup doesn't mean they are not out to destroy you.

[Ramadhan]

Why do you suddenly seem to care so much about one human life when you clearly don't have the slightest sympathy for those Muslims who are being killed everyday through sanctions and invasions and massacres? Don't you think that people are noticing what you're doing, what would your Buddha say to this attitude? Why are you always defending the killers of Muslims but when a non-Muslim is killed you suddenly become an extremely "humane" person?

So what if one non-Muslim was killed (not that I condone it)? Do people in the West cry and mourn for EVERY Muslim victim who was slaughtered by terrorist western armies?

Pure double standards, as you can see members who remain silent on the deaths of thousands of muslims are now getting all emotional and vocal when 7-8 of their own fellow non-muslims are killed.

I agree with all these.

[nousername]

Nobody is condoning these attacks, but at the same time I can understand. If right after Pearl Harbour attacks, which is NOTHING compared to what Afghans get daily, Japanese Humanitarian People came to help, do you guys think Americans would welcome them? NO.... Maybe those missionaries/medics were killed illegally but they should not have expected a welcome mat, and maybe should have invested in bullet proof vests !

[aadil77]

even if Muslims were always welcomed into other Muslim lands that does not excuse them to go into someone's home in order to implement better 'islam'. sadly , the taliban are just a Pakistani puppet regime no better than the NATO forces. let the afghan people run themselves however they want to be run. the reason why Afghanistan is in shambles is because other countries can't get their noses out of the country. Whether it's the Soviets or the British or the Arabs, Afghanistan is caught dead center. the taliban were incompetent leaders that had no business running a government.

LOL who's going into someone's home? are you saying all taliban are from pakistan? cause if you are you must be stupid. The taliban movement was accepted in afghanistan thats why it grew with the support of afghans all over the country - its consists of mostly afghans

And your statement 'no better than the NATO forces' - thats your opinion cause you're not a muslim, afghan taliban are praised all over the muslim world cause of their sincere struggle to fight for islam and rid the country of a constant influx of non-muslim invaders - Not many muslim countries have balls to defend themselves. You're probably not aware of this belief but even the worst muslim is better than the best non-muslim.

..............................

[Pygoscelis]

I agree with all these.

It is simple tribalism at work. Muslims have been demonized and made the "other" in western media so people who think tribally there don't feel for the arabs in the middle east (who they assume to be muslims). The exact same phenomenon works the other way (which is how we get events like 9/11 - and people celebrating it). The more we point to our differences and create barriers of ingroup/outgroup the less apt people are to care about the suffering of those on the other side.

[جوري]

Usually it is your outgroup hate that sticks out but here it is your ingroup blind faith. The west certainly has its abuses and its selfish motives, but the west is not the only one out to screw over places like Afghanistan. Just because somebody claims to be muslim doesn't mean they are your friend or have your best interests at heart.

The unseen enemy, the enemy within, is often the most dangerous. It is like that saying "Tyrany will come to America holding a bible and waving an American flag". Just because people try to fit into your ingroup doesn't mean they are not out to destroy you.

usually I just ignore you as a beef jerky sucking, tree hugging nutter, who knows little if no history whatsoever and so eager to dispense with his opinion as facts, unfortunately for someone whose entire thought processes and vocabulary centers around the word 'tribalism' you haven't much else to offer otherwise-- it is a wonder to me at all you insist on publicly humiliating yourself?.. go browse a basic history book about British occupations of Africa/ China and Asia and look at how borders were set up to instigate hatred/ 'tribalism' in fact and highlight the need for longer stay to steal more, a prime example is how they gave a wedge of Egypt to Sudan and stayed to 'keep the peace' and steal the money coming in from the Suez Canal discounting the very close relationship that Egypt had with Sudan so their scheme didn't work for long, but has unfortunately worked in other regions. Now, I totally understand, you live in your cartoon world, and have a subscription to tribalism and the atheist manifesto magazine, but just so you are not repeatedly embarrassing yourself in public, there is an entire world and schools of thoughts that don't run along yours.. try stepping out of your comfort zone a little unarmed by the two words in your ammo.. and if you had paid attention you'd have seen the operative word in my statement was 'true Muslims' hopefully you can use that to expand your vocabulary..

for the record, I never counted pork rind gorging, beer chugging, fart dispensing bible thumpers as any form of contenders. Their filthy presence is enough of a bother in Muslim land without them waving their mangod agenda in everyone's face!

nationalism/fascism/Arianism and yes your coveted tribalism are indeed a western invention..

as the noble Quran tells us:

49:13 (Picktall) O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware.


good day =)

[Grace Seeker]

Except they wern't 'missionaries', they were medics, trying to save people's eyesight. . What part of that do you Talifans find so hard to grasp? .. sometimes you folks redefine the word 'gullible'. And even if they were distributing these imaginary Bibles, is Islam really so feeble a religion it is justifiable to slaughter 'missionaries' of other religions just to keep people believing in it?!

So they say. If they were truly medics than Allahu alam. This has nothing to with them trying to spread their religion but more to do with the conditions and manner they choose to do it in. You come into their country as occupiers and murderers and then have the audacity to try to spread your religion and expect to be welcomed with open arms. Afghanistan is a warzone.
What I find indeed gullible is how you people expect to be treated with respect and decency when you illegally occupy another nation and kill it's inhabitants on a daily basis. What part of leave Afghanistan do you people fail to grasp? no "medics" would die and neither would your soldiers.
Salam

Nobody is condoning these attacks, but at the same time I can understand. If right after Pearl Harbour attacks, which is NOTHING compared to what Afghans get daily, Japanese Humanitarian People came to help, do you guys think Americans would welcome them? NO.... Maybe those missionaries/medics were killed illegally but they should not have expected a welcome mat, and maybe should have invested in bullet proof vests !

I can't tell you about all of the people who were killed. I don't even know much about International Assistance Mission, the organization they were with. But I can tell you a little about one of the men who was murdered. Daniel Terry was a friend of mine. Not a close friend, but an acquaintance. A fellow United Methodist. Someone I met several years ago at a missions conference. Dan was with the team that was murdered not because he was a doctor or a medic, but specifically because he was a missionary. Now, before people jump to think that this proves the Taliban right in their accusations, let me tell you a little bit more about the man they murdered.

Daniel Terry was by nationality an American, but you could hardly call him a westerner. In truth, he saw himself as more Afghani than American, for Afghanistan had been his home for all of his adult life.

In 1948, when Dan was just two years of age, his parents moved their family to India which is where he was primarily raised. His family travelled extensively throughout northern India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. His father worked for NGOs in the rural communities to bring humanitarian assistance. Dan's peers were the boys of the different villages that his father worked in, and as a child he learned all these languages. In those travels Dan fell in love with Afghanistan and moved there in 1970, a young man of 22. He had some mechanical aptitude and that is how he earned his living. In 1972 he met Seija, the love of his life. Seija was from Finland and had come to Afghanistan as a nurse. They married 4 years later and decided to go to graduate school. 1976-1980 was spent in school in the United States. Then, despite Soviet occupation, with schooling completed, they returned to the country they considered their home. This time Dan was employed by the United Methodist Church as a missionary. He job was to use his knowledge of the country, lanuage, and mechanical skills to provide logistical support for others engaged in rural health projects in central Afghanistan such as the construction of community health centers.

He was a man of Christian faith there is no doubt, and he rarely travelled without a copy of the Bible with him, but it would have been his personal copy for his own devotions, not for proselytizing. Dan was always one willing to share his faith when asked, but never felt it was his job to open that conversation. Dan always said that the best introductions were those that God made for us. On the occassion in which I met him, he had talked about the importance of doing good works regardless without worry about the result simply because that is what God calls us to. One of my seminary classmates attending the conference with me challenge him asking what good it did to tend to people's physical needs if you left them spiritually bound for hell. Dan would have none of it. He said that it wasn't our job to convert people, that God is the one who calls people to himself. Our job, according to Dan, was to live in accordance with God's will for our lives, to love people as God loved them, meet their needs as best we could, and let God take care of the rest. I remember that conversation, because at that point in my life I disagreed with him and had joined in my classmate's vehement objections to Dan's point of view. It wasn't till several years later, when I happened to have opportunity to take a short-term missison trip of my own (to another country, not Afghanistan), that my personal experiences there radically changed my own view on the subject to be like that of Dan's.

I have no knowledge of Dan's political leanings other than that he thought all politics was local. That is, what was important to him was that people learn to live in community with one another and work together for the common good. It was his hope that nations could learn to get along to make the world a better place in much the same way that he experienced neighbors of different backgrounds could learn to get along and work together to make the small villages in which he spent so much time better places.

Dan and Seija had raised their 3 girls in Afghanistan, even accepting and adapting to Taliban rule. To his children and to others he would speak he always taught the importance of understanding, relating to, and respecting other people's culture. He was a missionary helping others to provide humanitarian aid to the poorest and most hurting regions of the country and people he loved. He had accompanied IAM because they were doing the same and his logistical and language skills were essential to them being able to provide the services they hoped to offer to some who would otherswise be without. They had completed that mission, an eye camp, in the Parun Valley of Nuristan province and were returning to Kabul by way of Badakhshan province because it was believed to be safer when they were attacked and murdered.


“It is almost beyond belief that Dan Terry would be murdered in Afghanistan,” said Thomas Kemper, chief executive of Global Ministries, and Dan's boss. “He loved the country with a passion and worked tirelessly on behalf of its most marginalized communities.”

There is no justification for such an act. Those who did it are nothing more than robbers and murders. For all the pious words that some have spoken in their behalf, I do not believe the true God of Islam would ever condone such an act. May Allah recognize those murders as such so that when they stand before him at the time of judgment they receive the same sort of mercy from him they themselves showed to those who truly were on a journey of mercy when they took their lives from them.

[nousername]

All I can say it's really terrible what's going on in Afghanistan....civilians dying everyday, drones and bombs, firefights, etc. Their is so much killing on a daily basis that I can understand why people are outraged that some westerners, no matter how good their intentions are, get all the attention when nobody even knows the names of the civilians killed daily.

[Lynx]

..............................



LOL who's going into someone's home? are you saying all taliban are from pakistan? cause if you are you must be stupid. The taliban movement was accepted in afghanistan thats why it grew with the support of afghans all over the country - its consists of mostly afghans

And your statement 'no better than the NATO forces' - thats your opinion cause you're not a muslim, afghan taliban are praised all over the muslim world cause of their sincere struggle to fight for islam and rid the country of a constant influx of non-muslim invaders - Not many muslim countries have balls to defend themselves. You're probably not aware of this belief but even the worst muslim is better than the best non-muslim.

a) no body claimed all of the taliban were from Pakistan. their primary funding and their origin are certainly pakistani
b) a huge chunk of the taliban are foreigners, the vast majority of 'afghans' that are part of the taliban were pashtun afghans who committed ethnic crimes against non pashtun afghans. the taliban's forces were mostly trained in Pakistan and sent to AFghanistan from Pakistan. Pakistan pulls the taliban's strings after their agent gulbideen hikmatyar went renegade.
c) you're right it's my opinion that they are as bad as NATO forces. the muslims who support the taliban (and im sure it's considerably less than 'majority' of the muslim world) do so because of their war against USA. america = bad so whoever is against america = good.
d) the reason the taliban were accepted was because people thought htey'd put an end to the fighting that took place after the Soviets pulled out. It turned out that the taliban's goals for the country did not go beyond total control over the country.
e) i am aware of the saying 'the worst muslim is better than the best non muslim' and it is one of the reasons why i think islam is illogical. i can explain my reasoning in a different thread if you really want to know why :)

[Zafran]

You're probably not aware of this belief but even the worst muslim is better than the best non-muslim.

where did this come from???

[Grace Seeker]

All I can say it's really terrible what's going on in Afghanistan

Agreed.

civilians dying everyday

terrible

drones and bombs, firefights, etc.

Not to mention "suicide" bombings and outright murders....all terrible.

Their is so much killing on a daily basis that I can understand why people are outraged that some westerners, no matter how good their intentions are, get all the attention when nobody even knows the names of the civilians killed daily.

Disagree that the facts, as presented in this sentence, are true. Here is why:
1) If only the deaths of westerners received attention, then no one would be aware that others have died. This thread alone, let alone other news reports (including reports that do occur in westerner media), give evidence that people around the world are aware that there are other deaths besides those of westerners.
2) I find it highly unlikely that nobody knows the names of the civilians who are killed in Afghanistan.
2a) The families and friends of those civilians who are killed surley know their names.
2b) Media tend to report that which they anticipate will be of interest to their viewers/readers. And, therefore, western media (rightly or wrongly) make an assumption that western readers/viewers are going to be more interested in the deaths of people viewed as having ties with the west than from other places around the globe. (This is not the best journalism in my opinion, but seems to be universally practiced.) Thus those who utilize western media may be led, falsely in my opinion, the the view that nobody knows the names of Afghan civilians who are killed. But I suspect that media that reports to Afghan populations are very much aware of those names and report them just as much as the western media report on western names to western audiences. If not, they should be.
2c) Lastly, let us not forget that Daniel Terry, the only name I know, was himself a civilian, and that I know him not as a westerner but as a person from Afghanistan.

---Edit-----------------------------------

1a) The UN just released a report detailing civilian deaths in Afghanistan. The report was carried extensively by virtually all western media today.

[Argamemnon]

I am not surprised. Aid workers have been dying in Afhganistan/Iraq/Africa forever. It's a risk that these people take when they try to help people. But obviously, the fact that these events are inevitable don't make them excusable.

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

[Grace Seeker]

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

Millions? I believe this is at best a case of hyperbole.

The number of Afghan civilians killed in the war torn country rose 25 per cent in the first six months of 2010, despite a reduction in the number of civilian deaths caused by NATO action, a UN report said Tuesday.

The report showed that the Afghan war is getting even more deadly because of insurgent actions against civilians, undermining coalition efforts to improve security in the country.

"The human cost of this conflict is unfortunately rising," Staffan De Mistura, the top UN envoy in Afghanistan, said while releasing the report. "We are very concerned about the future because the human cost is being paid too heavily by civilians. This report is a wake-up call."

According to the report by the Human Rights Unit of the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, 1,271 Afghans died and 1,997 were injured, mostly in bombings -- in the first six months of 2010.

In comparison, there were 1,013 civilian deaths in the first six months of 2009.

The UN said insurgents were responsible for 72 per cent of those deaths in 2010, compared to 58 per cent in 2009.

Even though the UN blames insurgents for almost three-quarters of the deaths, the report could undermine the mission as the Afghan public is increasingly blaming the U.S.-led mission for the violence.

De Mistura argues that the Taliban is hurting its long-term goals by killing so many civilians.

"If they want to be part of a future Afghanistan, they cannot do so over the bodies of so many civilians," de Mistura said. "One day, when unavoidably there will be a discussion about the future of the country, will you want to come to that table with thousands of Afghans, civilians, killed along the road?"

Civilian deaths from coalition actions were down 18 per cent in the first half of 2010. Deaths dropped to 223 from 310 in 2009, mostly due to a decrease in air strikes, the report said.

Air bombings accounted for 31 per cent of civilian deaths caused by pro-government forces.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal, the former NATO commander, introduced strict new rules for air strikes, a policy change his successor, Gen. David Petraeus, has continued.

"Every Afghan death diminishes our cause," Petraeus said in a statement "We know the measure by which our mission will be judged is protecting the population from harm by either side. We will redouble our efforts to prevent insurgents from harming their neighbors."

With files from The Associated Press
(source: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ilians-100810/)

Even using the highest figure for all estimates of civilian deaths from any source, the total for the entire war (including the combined effect of actions of all foreign and national militaries, Taliban, insurgents, and freedom fighters) is 12,969 direct deaths and 20,000 indirect deaths for a grand total of roughly 33,000 total deaths 2001 to 2009 inclusive. (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilia...2%80%93present) Add the 1300 civilian deaths so far this year reported by the UN and you have a total of just under 34,300 -- which is itself is waaaay too many, but also waaaaaaaaaay less (by hundreds of thousands) than the term "millions" which you used to describe what is happening.

[Argamemnon]

Your barbaric and terrorist government has killed, maimed, tortured and displaced millions of Iraqis, but I know the life of one Christian missionary is far more important to westerners.

5 Million Iraqis Killed, Maimed, Tortured, Displaced -- Think That Bothers War Boosters Like Christopher Hitchens?

http://www.alternet.org/story/147281...opher_hitchens

[Lynx]

Once again, stop crying. Muslims are dying by the millions and I know you couldn't care less you hypocrite.

Please quote me where I have said I don't care about 'millions of Muslims' dying. If you can't, I expect an apology for calling me a hypocrite. Thank you.