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Latitudinarian
07-12-2010, 06:07 PM
There are many cultural similarities I've observed between that of my youth, growing up in Canada during the 80's, and that of today. Movies, television, fashion and music all had a significant impact on social lives then just as they do now. Older married adults have always tended to conform to a fairly modest, stable and low-key standard of dress whereas teenagers and young adults have always been more susceptible to the various fashion trends, themselves reinforced and shaped by the media, celebrities and cult movements.

There were various styles associated with various types of music. Where there was a fashion and young consumers, there was money to be made so industries naturally took advantage of the situation, promoting style-associated products and people wherever they could. The headbanger look was associated with heavy metal music, the mod look was associated with mod music, the punk look was associated with punk music, the pop look was associated with pop music, the gangster look was associated with rap music, etc. Music and style would act as a means to the cross-pollination of various commercial industries.

Some opportunists realized they could build a large following by creating controversy, breaking taboos and pushing societal boundaries since rebellion has always resonated with the impulsive-spending preteen and teen target demographic. Within the popular music industry, Madonna was perhaps the most notable of boundary-pushers, owing most of her success to her immodest approach. This became an archetypal formula that would later produce the likes of the hyper-sexualized Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera and Lady Gaga.

When impressionable children look up to popular celebrities, it's not unexpected that they would try to emulate them. Those who are less inclined to pop culture are nonetheless subtly influenced by the dress and attitudes of their peers so the effects can be pervasive in redefining norms. It would be foolish to claim that entertainment and fashion industries are solely responsible for the immodesty we see today in society but there can be no doubt that they have played a large part. Besides industry and pop-consumerism movements, ideologies like feminism have been hijacked in efforts to help rationalize the diluted standards of modesty among today's youth.

Maybe I'm getting old, but from what I can see, the attitudes and dress of teens and young adults today is not the same as it used to be. Females wear shorter skirts and shorts, tighter and skimpier pants, shirts and dresses as well as lower cut tops in an effort to look sexier. I don't know the stats but my impression is that casual sex for the mere sake of sensual experience is an encouraged attitude common among many young women. Back when I was growing up, people had more self-respect and such attitudes were considered skanky - apparently being a skank isn't such a bad thing anymore.

I know I'm not alone in my concern for the deterioration of decency and chastity. There are religious and non-religious critics alike on this matter. Muslims are not fond of the permissiveness that has been promoted in Western culture; I suspect that the general decline in modesty witnessed in the West is in part responsible for the revival of the hijab in the Middle East over the past few decades. Ironically, I've grown so accustomed to seeing half-naked young women wandering the malls and the streets during summer that it's now women who wear hijab that catch my attention. While the intent of the head-scarf is presumably to repel eyes, I often find myself fixated on and attracted to women who wear hijab. It's certainly true that a hijab helps emphasizes the beauty of a face but I think perhaps the greater allure is in the holding of higher values and reverence for life's treasures.

Any thoughts on this?
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aadil77
07-12-2010, 06:14 PM
Those were the good old days when society valued modesty, now its all gone down the gutter
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PouringRain
07-12-2010, 08:57 PM
I agree that modesty has declined over time and that promiscuity among women (and men) has increased.

I found it interesting that you compared the 80's to today, because this past year it seems that all the 80's fashions are back in style. LOL About a year ago I came home one day after having spent a day in a public school and I remarked to my mother that kids this year are back into all those awful, horrible 80's fashions. Throughout this year, every store I go into, everywhere I turn, it is all over the place. Scary.

I think that it is also true what you wrote about women and hijab. While the purpose of hijab is modesty and to not draw men's attention to women, in Western society it has the opposite effect about drawing attention. Instead of diverting attention it draws attention to the woman. Additionally, you are not the first man that I have heard who talk about the "allure" of modesty. I have outright heard men say that when a woman is covered it is "sexier." Ironically, women who are modest are certainly not trying to be sexy or alluring. I suspect that the reason men find it to be sexy and alluring is the very fact that it is forbidden fruit. Men can have any loose woman out there, but a modest women is chaste. It makes her forbidden fruit. It also makes her a challenge, and men like a challenge. I realize that I am generalizing about men, and I do apologize for my generalizations, but in general they are true. LOL It is also cited as the number one reason why men cheat on their spouses-- simply for the thrill of it, because it is forbidden. (Women are said to primarily cheat for a different reason, but this thread is not about that.) In any case, I am not suggesting that modest women stop being modest. If more women were modest then the modest woman would lose her appeal. As more and more women become looser, the modest woman will become more and more prized. Unfortunately it doesn't mean that the men who seek out modest women really appreciate or treasure such a woman. It is unfortunate for women that there are men who, like hunters, simply like the thrill of the chase.
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S<Chowdhury
07-13-2010, 09:25 AM
Yupp I agree that modesty has definitely declined over time, i hate all this Lady Gaga Crap annoys me to bits !......... but what annoys me even more is when the East try to copy the West especially India, you can't sit down and watch a good bollywood film anymore all this b.s of dancing and what not Ugh ! (yes i like 2 watch a bollywood film occasionally and no im not fresh :P). Its also true when the OP talked about how hijab seems to catch the attention in the west instead
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Those were the good old days when society valued modesty, now its all gone down the gutter
I'm optimistic that things will change so that modesty prevails again in a large capacity. There are plenty of ideas but I'm still not sure how this will come into being.
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by PouringRain
I found it interesting that you compared the 80's to today, because this past year it seems that all the 80's fashions are back in style. LOL About a year ago I came home one day after having spent a day in a public school and I remarked to my mother that kids this year are back into all those awful, horrible 80's fashions. Throughout this year, every store I go into, everywhere I turn, it is all over the place. Scary.
There have been some select retro movements over the years. For example, in the late 80's, there were many who imitated the late 60's/early 70's with respect to musical tastes, attitude and look. Earlier in the decade, guys with long hair were, for the most part, unheard of (other than the feathered styles of the rocker/headbanger crowd) but then guys started growing their hair again to look like hippies. That retro movement combined with alternative, heavy rock, punk and other styles ended up spawning grunge. Perhaps you're seeing something similar now with an 80's revival. I'm so out of the loop with fashion trends these days that I wasn't even aware of this latest trend. I guess my question to you is which 80's look is coming back?

I think that it is also true what you wrote about women and hijab. While the purpose of hijab is modesty and to not draw men's attention to women, in Western society it has the opposite effect about drawing attention. Instead of diverting attention it draws attention to the woman.
I've always been one to find a beautiful face to be the most important quality of physical attraction. One thing about the hijab is that it draws your eyes to the face whereas hair can be distracting. You're right that there is something sexy about a woman who is modest and innocent. Self-respect and disregard for the pop style of institutionalized clones is also of appeal. She knows who she is and she's not about to sully her body and character for some cheap hedonistic endeavor.

I realize that I am generalizing about men, and I do apologize for my generalizations, but in general they are true. LOL It is also cited as the number one reason why men cheat on their spouses-- simply for the thrill of it, because it is forbidden. (Women are said to primarily cheat for a different reason, but this thread is not about that.) In any case, I am not suggesting that modest women stop being modest. If more women were modest then the modest woman would lose her appeal. As more and more women become ****tier, the modest woman will become more and more prized.
At least in the context of modern Western pop-culture, I think you may be right. There are certainly men out there who think that life is about cutting notches on the bedpost. Somehow, perhaps with a little push from the media, they've come to believe that the conquest of a variety of women is what will bring them happiness. With that failing, they seek greater challenges like the shameless and deceitful deflowering of the naive. I've known guys who brag about the hundreds of women they've "bagged" and all I can do is pity them for the poison that has irreparably killed their ability to venerate the pleasures of life. What's worse is now some women are starting to adopt similar attitudes as these stereotypical men.
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glo
07-13-2010, 02:03 PM
I would be interested in any statistics which clearly demonstrate a definite decline in modesty and morals. I mean, to be sure that this isn't just the media hyping things up.
Does anybody know of any serious research or any statistics on this topic?

My guess is that every generation has always complained about the declining morals and standards of the younger generation.
I would love to be able to put a figure to that, just to get an idea how correct that perception is. (Otherwise, all we have is anecdotes, media presentation and our own assumptions)
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE SChowdhury]
Yupp I agree that modesty has definitely declined over time, i hate all this Lady Gaga Crap annoys me to bits !......... but what annoys me even more is when the East try to copy the West especially India, you can't sit down and watch a good bollywood film anymore all this b.s of dancing and what not Ugh ! (yes i like 2 watch a bollywood film occasionally and no im not fresh :P). Its also true when the OP talked about how hijab seems to catch the attention in the west instead
[/QUOTE]

I actually enjoy a well-produced Bollywood film and have come to think of the singing and dancing as intrinsically and uniquely part of such movies. The older movies come across as too archaic to hold my attention.

Its also true when the OP talked about how hijab seems to catch the attention in the west instead
Just out of curiosity, from your perspective, as a Muslim, do women with hijab draw your attention more or less than women without hijab?
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glo
07-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
I'm optimistic that things will change so that modesty prevails again in a large capacity. There are plenty of ideas but I'm still not sure how this will come into being.
I wonder whether these things swing backwards and forwards like a pendulum over the course of decades or even centuries.

I have heard that prior to the Victorian Age people had relatively lax sexual and moral standards. Then the Victorians came and everything became very prim and proper. At present we are in a backlash against that strict Victorian regime. Perhaps the pendulum is due to swing back sometime soon.

(I am not sure how accurate that perception is, and I don't know too much about British history prior to the 1900s myself)

Any thoughts?
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titus
07-13-2010, 02:13 PM
Looks like Glo beat me to it.

I think this is a case of "Good Ol Day"-ism. As someone who grew up in the 80's I don't see much difference in modesty now as I did then.

Today they have Lady Gaga, back then it was Madonna and Prince. Nothing has really changed.

It all tends to by cyclical. In the 60's you had the mini-skirt trend, then that went out of fashion and you didn't see much of that at all in the 80's, then it came back.

If you grew up in the 80's then do you remember the shorts that men wore back then? They were little bitty compared to today where men tend to wear longer baggier shorts.

I think it is a matter of perception. I remember one of my high school teachers reading a newspaper article about how horrible the youth were becoming. How you see all these men with long hair, how the younger generation was ruder and had no respect, etc., etc. She then informed us that the article had been written in the 1870's.

I think the main issue is that we are just growing old and we begin to selectively forget many things and start to pain a picture in our minds of the past that is not completely accurate.
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glo
07-13-2010, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Looks like Glo beat me to it.
Any beating was unintentional! :hiding: ;D


I think the main issue is that we are just growing old and we begin to selectively forget many things and start to paint a picture in our minds of the past that is not completely accurate.
Getting old?? :nervous:
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I would be interested in any statistics which clearly demonstrate a definite decline in modesty and morals. I mean, to be sure that this isn't just the media hyping things up.
Does anybody know of any serious research or any statistics on this topic?

My guess is that every generation has always complained about the declining morals and standards of the younger generation.
I would love to be able to put a figure to that, just to get an idea how correct that perception is. (Otherwise, all we have is anecdotes, media presentation and our own assumptions)
Excellent point. So far, I've just been speaking from anecdotes and assumptions. I doubt that there are any serious stats on the skimpiness of clothing (i.e. immodesty) but there certainly are stats indicating how promiscuous people are. One site indicates things may not be as bad as they appear. I can't post links right now but here is a quote from the Don Burleson Blog:
Male Promiscuity statistics:
- Male average lovers - Among men 15-44, the median number of sexual partners in their lifetimes is 5.4.
- Men who are promiscuous - Almost a quarter of men (22.6 percent) say they've had 15 or more partners.

Female Promiscuity statistics:
- Women average lovers - Among women, the median number of partners is 3.3
- Women who are promiscuous - Almost a tenth (9.2 percent) of women say they've had 15 or more partners. The question is, where do guys find these women?
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I wonder whether these things swing backwards and forwards like a pendulum over the course of decades or even centuries.

I have heard that prior to the Victorian Age people had relatively lax sexual and moral standards. Then the Victorians came and everything became very prim and proper. At present we are in a backlash against that strict Victorian regime. Perhaps the pendulum is due to swing back sometime soon.

(I am not sure how accurate that perception is, and I don't know too much about British history prior to the 1900s myself)

Any thoughts?
There was weird movie out about this sort of pendulum swing in the late 90's. The name escapes me and I don't recall who the actors were but basically society would fluctuate between the exaltation of an ultra-nihilist culture, careless and living for the moment, and a hyper-sensitive culture, hell-bent on the dogma of saving the environment, vigorously fighting for what's right, etc. Anyone remember the name of this flick?
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tango92
07-13-2010, 02:33 PM
interesting point glo i never really thought of it like that.

im no history scholar, yet i do think this generation is far more immodest. simply due to the invention of the miniskirt, "short shorts", spandex, pornography and other beach attire. which has eradicated public shame. i imagine in nations past promiscuity was at least kept behind closed doors and historical disclosure/evidence was due to writers of the time. along comes cell phone with its digital camera and guess who capitalises, the devil.

so the more accessible shame has become, the more pressure there is to conform to it, espeially in its modern glamorised form. not to mention men wanting to act out what they see on the internet, the victims are the women, yet they view themselves as being liberated.

why is it women are want to wear far less than men even though the women have something to hide and the men dont?
why is it you can see women wearing basically less than underwear in the park, yet the same woman may feel violated if seen in a similar fashion in a changing room?

some things dont make sense to me, although im sure the men will defend the womes right to do so..................
i hope this post hasnt made any1 uncomfortable.
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Looks like Glo beat me to it.

I think this is a case of "Good Ol Day"-ism. As someone who grew up in the 80's I don't see much difference in modesty now as I did then.

Today they have Lady Gaga, back then it was Madonna and Prince. Nothing has really changed.

It all tends to by cyclical. In the 60's you had the mini-skirt trend, then that went out of fashion and you didn't see much of that at all in the 80's, then it came back.

If you grew up in the 80's then do you remember the shorts that men wore back then? They were little bitty compared to today where men tend to wear longer baggier shorts.

I think it is a matter of perception. I remember one of my high school teachers reading a newspaper article about how horrible the youth were becoming. How you see all these men with long hair, how the younger generation was ruder and had no respect, etc., etc. She then informed us that the article had been written in the 1870's.

I think the main issue is that we are just growing old and we begin to selectively forget many things and start to pain a picture in our minds of the past that is not completely accurate.
I agree with you to the extent that there has always been a tendency for the elders of one generation to complain about the laxness of the next. But I can't help but concede to the fact that change does occur over the long term - it's not completely cyclical despite the fluctuations back. In the 1870's were there celebrities who dressed like Lady Gaga? Earlier in the 20th century, was it okay for television to promote infidelity as a common problem in relationships? Thirty years ago, would a person start a chat out of the comfort of his/her home with a random stranger and then rendezvous later that day for sex? Divorce rates used to be lower and now there are Internet sites that cater to extramarital affairs. People didn't have the same choices that they have now and the media didn't have to fight so hard to capture the attention of consumers.

I'm not saying all this change is bad since there have been a lot of improvements that technology and culture have made on society but I'm posting to highlight what's wrong, not what's right.
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Asiyah3
07-13-2010, 03:12 PM
I've think that modesty will decline even more over time.

Is there a thing called modesty or modest behaviour among the younger generation?..
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PouringRain
07-13-2010, 03:15 PM
I think you have some good observations, tango.

Originally Posted by tango92
not to mention men wanting to act out what they see on the internet, the victims are the women, yet they view themselves as being liberated.
My mom was saying a similar thing the other day. She said that no one on tv has "normal sex," which then causes the abnormal to be viewed as normal. You are right about men seeing things on the internet, or tv, or in pron, and then wanting to act it out. It is all very sad and disgusting.

Originally Posted by tango92
why is it women are want to wear far less than men even though the women have something to hide and the men dont?
why is it you can see women wearing basically less than underwear in the park, yet the same woman may feel violated if seen in a similar fashion in a changing room?

some things dont make sense to me, although im sure the men will defend the womes right to do so..................
i hope this post hasnt made any1 uncomfortable.
I would say that the reason women parade in next to nothing in public, but then feel violated if seen in the dressing room, has to do with control over their body. In public, they have chosen to display their body, in private it becomes a violation of their privacy. But I understand where you are going with your comments. I have seen many women who dress in a provocative manner, but then are upset when a man looks at them, or when a man objectifies them, or when a man makes sexual comments to them. The woman's clothing screams for attention, but she claims to not want any.


In response to Latitude about what 80's style....... punk/ pop.
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tango92
07-13-2010, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by PouringRain

In public, they have chosen to display their body, in private it becomes a violation of their privacy.
a strange world no doubt, but "private" locations are still dictated by society, somehow humans are easily and unkowingly led astray. In islam we believe humanity should return to their natural state. ie the society is built around laws that are natural to humans and not heavily influenced by societal fads. Who is better to inform us about ourselves than Allah swt?

im sure almost all religious texts agree to an extent about modesty.
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titus
07-13-2010, 03:38 PM
In the 1870's were there celebrities who dressed like Lady Gaga?
You bet. It was called burlesque. Burlesque was popular in small part because of the scantily clad women.

You can also look up famous celebrities of the past like Gypsy Rose Lee

Thirty years ago, would a person start a chat out of the comfort of his/her home with a random stranger and then rendezvous later that day for sex? Divorce rates used to be lower and now there are Internet sites that cater to extramarital affairs. People didn't have the same choices that they have now and the media didn't have to fight so hard to capture the attention of consumers.
Over the past 25 years the divorce rate has actually been in a fairly constant decline in the US. LINK

As for the others the reason is the advance in technology, not necessarily a decline in morals.
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 03:42 PM
For the most part, it is the women who are wearing far less than the men and, to some extent, this is a reflection of the celebrity reality. Celebrities, by the nature of their business, have to compete for attention and the tried and true means for a woman to get attention is to tap into the primal drives of men. We didn't used to see celebs go so raunchy before because society used to look down on such antics but it has now become common place to break taboos until they are no longer taboos. When young women exalt the success, fame and lifestyle of celebrity, they start to dress and behave similarly. Compare the stereotyped glamor of the original barbie doll to the spunky sexed-up appearance of the Bratz.

BTW what's the deal with some teen-aged guys exposing their underwear?
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by titus
You bet. It was called burlesque. Burlesque was popular in small part because of the scantily clad women.

You can also look up famous celebrities of the past like Gypsy Rose Lee
No doubt, there have always been forms of exotic entertainment like burlesque. I'm not sure what the 1870's versions of hardcore porn or on stage sex would be but I suspect they didn't go that far back then. Also, back in those days, I don't think it was common for the female masses to copy the scantily clad women in their everyday lives, unless they were prostitutes.

Over the past 25 years the divorce rate has actually been in a fairly constant decline in the US.
As for the others the reason is the advance in technology, not necessarily a decline in morals.
Go figure about the divorce rate - I wasn't aware that it was declining.

I agree that technology plays a bit part in the decline of modesty. Videos, images and text can reach the masses fast and the masses are able to be much more candid about themselves to willing eyes.
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tango92
07-13-2010, 06:13 PM
threads like this are themselves immodest......
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Latitudinarian
07-13-2010, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
threads like this are themselves immodest......
Wow, that's quite the statement. I can only guess that some of the words used in this thread have made you uncomfortable. Hopefully you're not offended by the indecency here.
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syed_z
07-13-2010, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
threads like this are themselves immodest......

thank you very much...
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S<Chowdhury
07-14-2010, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
I actually enjoy a well-produced Bollywood film and have come to think of the singing and dancing as intrinsically and uniquely part of such movies. The older movies come across as too archaic to hold my attention.
Just out of curiosity, from your perspective, as a Muslim, do women with hijab draw your attention more or less than women without hijab?
No the new bollywood films are filth but anyway uhm yeah women not with hijabs particularly but niqabs, full face veils and so on do stand out from the crowd so you do defo notice it.
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Hiroshi
07-14-2010, 12:30 PM
I saw the news on television last night about France moving to ban the niqab. Other countries are following suit aren't they? I wonder where this is all leading. There is a mosque in Wembley near to where I work and Muslims there were handing out leaflets calling for public demonstrations over what they see as an outrage. I don't think that all this bad feeling is going to die down quickly.
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Latitudinarian
07-14-2010, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I saw the news on television last night about France moving to ban the niqab. Other countries are following suit aren't they? I wonder where this is all leading. There is a mosque in Wembley near to where I work and Muslims there were handing out leaflets calling for public demonstrations over what they see as an outrage. I don't think that all this bad feeling is going to die down quickly.
In Quebec, Bill 94 was brought forward by the government to ban the burqa and niqab in dealings with government services and for provincial employees. Reasons cited for the proposal include the importance of identifiability in the public sector, the protection of gender equality, the avoidance of unreasonable accommodation and the respect for common values. Most secular people I know of are actually opposed to any outright ban on the burqa since it violates the individual's freedom of expression but, at the same time, there seems to be support for veil restrictions when it comes to security issues, aligned with what Quebec is doing.
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Hiroshi
07-14-2010, 02:50 PM
I think that there is need for reasonableness and common sense on both sides. Nobody wants their freedom taken away. But the problem with security and the importance of identification is a most serious concern in today's worsening world. I saw a woman wearing a niqab who was being interviewed on the television. She said that she would continue to wear the dress even if it meant getting arrested because of her conscience. But why is a matter of conscience when the niqab appears to be a cultural thing? Surely the Qur'an does not insist that the garment be worn. If it did then all Muslim women would wear it.
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Ramadhan
07-14-2010, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Surely the Qur'an does not insist that the garment be worn. If it did then all Muslim women would wear it.
You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.
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Latitudinarian
07-14-2010, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.
I was under the impression that there is some ambiguity as to whether even the headscarf is required of female Muslims. From what I read, in the early days of Islam, your Prophet required women to wear hijab in his presence but this didn't apply to others. In the Quran, I believe the verses say things along the lines of "cover your shame", "guard your modesty, covering your bosoms" and "draw your cloaks around you", but none of that definitively states you need to cover your face or your head for the matter. Could someone clarify that?
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Hiroshi
07-14-2010, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
You reasoning is illogical (this is aside from the ruling whether niqaab is compulasory or not).

Just because it is said in the Qur'an that muslims must do certain thing, does not automatically mean that all muslims will do it.
Example: Allah SWT in the Qur'an tells repeatedly to avoid zina and has promised great punishments for it, and yet many muslims have fallen into it.
Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.
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Ramadhan
07-14-2010, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.
Thankfully Islam is not operating under your rules, whether you find them virtuous or not is inconsequential.

As a christian, instead of making enquiries about facets of islam you are ignorant of, you have been making (laughable) statements about Islam as if you know Islamic jurisprudence which you do not at all.

So, since you are acting as if you are an expert in ushool fiqh, can you please tell me how a woman should be dressing according to the teachings of prophet Muhammad SAW as ordained by Allah SWT?

The burden is on you since you made the claim as above.
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Lynx
07-14-2010, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Let's say then for arguments sake that some people's consciences prompt them to act in a better way than others. I still don't see the virtue of covering a woman's entire face when she is in public. And I don't know any command in the Qur'an that says she has to do that.
To put in my two cents, the virtue of covering the face in public is the same as not walking around in a mini skirt or naked or in your underwear. For some people, what is acceptable to display to the public is nothing; that is, for some women they honestly think that their face should only be seen by family, other women, and/or the husband. In other words, it's the same as not walking around in underwear for some women who genuinely believe it's immodest to show their face. Moreover, you're right there's no explicit verse in the Quran that says to wear face veil but on some interpretations of the verses that tell women to cover, some scholars have said that a woman should cover everything including the face except an eye (or two in some interpretations that I've read). But even if there is no verse that commands to wear the full veil, it is generally accepted by Muslims, and Muslims here can verify this, that it's a good act to wear the face veil and it further shows one's devotion to modesty. Having said that, I don't think any reasonable person who believes in democratic freedoms that are supposed to be enjoyed in the Western democratic countries ought to support the outright ban of Niqabs. If there's a security issue in some parts of society then at the very most, there could be a law to ban women from wearing it in those particular places if there is no other way to get around it.

@OP

I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.
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Latitudinarian
07-14-2010, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx
I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.
I agree that the public idea of morality has shifted more towards consequentialism. There are many factors behind this transformation, including grassroots social and ideological movements, highly accessible communications technologies and mediums, the promotion of undaunted consumerism as well as the influence of the mainstream media. While consequentialism is distinctly benign compared to the more traditional systems of moral doctrine, it has a number of flaws which I'll try to outline briefly.

Besides the standard criticism of it's lack of guidance for what one ought to do, the first problem I have with it is that actions usually do effect other people even when the effects are not immediately apparent. For example, a couple may think that making out on a crowded subway doesn't hurt anyone but they aren't taking into account the psychological effects on a child who witnesses such an overt display of public affection. The second problem I have with it is that doesn't seem to address individual integrity for it's own sake; I think that actions helping or harming only the actor ought to be considered in the moral sphere as well as those that effect others. For example, self-abuse is immoral regardless of it's external effects, as far as I'm concerned. Finally, Utilitarian systems while practical, don't have much regard for intentions yet there's a world of difference between well-meaning and malicious motives.
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Hiroshi
07-15-2010, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by Lynx
To put in my two cents, the virtue of covering the face in public is the same as not walking around in a mini skirt or naked or in your underwear. For some people, what is acceptable to display to the public is nothing; that is, for some women they honestly think that their face should only be seen by family, other women, and/or the husband. In other words, it's the same as not walking around in underwear for some women who genuinely believe it's immodest to show their face. Moreover, you're right there's no explicit verse in the Quran that says to wear face veil but on some interpretations of the verses that tell women to cover, some scholars have said that a woman should cover everything including the face except an eye (or two in some interpretations that I've read). But even if there is no verse that commands to wear the full veil, it is generally accepted by Muslims, and Muslims here can verify this, that it's a good act to wear the face veil and it further shows one's devotion to modesty.
Fair enough, I guess. But I have three daughters and I know that the natural feminine desire is to look pretty to other people. Obviously this can lead to extremes that should be avoided such as mini skirts and revealing styles of dress. But to cover even the face completely seems to go to the other extreme which is equally unwelcome.
Originally Posted by Lynx
I think the root of the decline of modesty is that the moral outlook has changed amongst the people, or to put it in a different way, the common morality has changed. People are now consequentalists in that they measure the rightness or wrongness of actions based on the consequences of those actions. Hence, actions and behavior like casual sex or wearing revealing or 'immodest' clothes don't necessarily harm anyone and so people are starting to find that 'hey, there's nothing wrong with being open about sexuality'. I suspect the reason for this shift of morality is the decline of religion which has traditionally promoted more duty based & divine command type ethics. Consequentalism appears really convincing these days especially when our governments essentially work in this cost-benefit framework.
Very true.
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Hiroshi
07-15-2010, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Thankfully Islam is not operating under your rules, whether you find them virtuous or not is inconsequential.

As a christian, instead of making enquiries about facets of islam you are ignorant of, you have been making (laughable) statements about Islam as if you know Islamic jurisprudence which you do not at all.

So, since you are acting as if you are an expert in ushool fiqh, can you please tell me how a woman should be dressing according to the teachings of prophet Muhammad SAW as ordained by Allah SWT?

The burden is on you since you made the claim as above.
Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.
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Lynx
07-15-2010, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by Latitudinarian
Besides the standard criticism of it's lack of guidance for what one ought to do, the first problem I have with it is that actions usually do effect other people even when the effects are not immediately apparent. For example, a couple may think that making out on a crowded subway doesn't hurt anyone but they aren't taking into account the psychological effects on a child who witnesses such an overt display of public affection. The second problem I have with it is that doesn't seem to address individual integrity for it's own sake; I think that actions helping or harming only the actor ought to be considered in the moral sphere as well as those that effect others. For example, self-abuse is immoral regardless of it's external effects, as far as I'm concerned. Finally, Utilitarian systems while practical, don't have much regard for intentions yet there's a world of difference between well-meaning and malicious motives.
there's much truth in what you say. i am not a consequentialist myself but i do think that consequentalism is the only practical ethic for politics in a democratic society. this is kind of going off topic though !

Fair enough, I guess. But I have three daughters and I know that the natural feminine desire is to look pretty to other people. Obviously this can lead to extremes that should be avoided such as mini skirts and revealing styles of dress. But to cover even the face completely seems to go to the other extreme which is equally unwelcome.
Well I am a conservative person myself when it comes to views of how modest one should be and I do think face veil is somewhat extreme . But I imagine we agree that a woman should have every right to wear a face veil if she wants to so long as it doesn't pose a real security threat to everyone else.
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Ramadhan
07-15-2010, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.
Are you for real?

This is ISLAMIC Board.

and muslims do not take bible as our guidance, so no matter how many biblical verses you throw out there (most bible verses are not authentic, by the way), it does not change one bit guidance for dressing.

Anyway, mary (which christians consider the mother of god) wore such garments that is she lived today, people would think she is a MUSLIM.

Just a bit of advice:
you keep spewing forth biblical verses outside the comparative religion section, and see how soon you will disappear from this board.
;)
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aadil77
07-15-2010, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Styles of dress change with different countries and cultures. But according to the Bible a woman should dress themselves with modesty and soundness of mind and in a way that befits women professing to reverence God (1 Timothy 2:9-10). That should be sufficient guidelines without imposing strict rigid rules of dress.
Majority of christians even fail to do that, I think you're already aware of biblical verses telling women to cover their hair

btw although we believe in the previous scriptures, we do not take the bible as completely the truth - so please do not quote from it unless its in the comparitive religion section - remember its islamicboard.com
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Hiroshi
07-15-2010, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Majority of christians even fail to do that, I think you're already aware of biblical verses telling women to cover their hair

btw although we believe in the previous scriptures, we do not take the bible as completely the truth - so please do not quote from it unless its in the comparitive religion section - remember its islamicboard.com
Originally Posted by naidamar
Are you for real?

This is ISLAMIC Board.

and muslims do not take bible as our guidance, so no matter how many biblical verses you throw out there (most bible verses are not authentic, by the way), it does not change one bit guidance for dressing.

Anyway, mary (which christians consider the mother of god) wore such garments that is she lived today, people would think she is a MUSLIM.

Just a bit of advice:
you keep spewing forth biblical verses outside the comparative religion section, and see how soon you will disappear from this board.
;)
I will take your advice, both of you. I was not aware that Islamic Board were so offended by quotations the Bible. The rules that I read only mentioned that things like insulting and obscene language were unacceptable.

But, aadil77, I don't know of any biblical verses that tell women to cover their hair (a slightly different issue) although it discourages showy, expensive and elaborate styles of braiding. Can you show me (without breaking any more rules)?
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aadil77
07-15-2010, 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I will take your advice, both of you. I was not aware that Islamic Board were so offended by quotations the Bible. The rules that I read only mentioned that things like insulting and obscene language were unacceptable.

But, aadil77, I don't know of any biblical verses that tell women to cover their hair (a slightly different issue) although it discourages showy, expensive and elaborate styles of braiding. Can you show me (without breaking any more rules)?
No the rules are you should not be promoting other faiths

Corinthians 11:5-6 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
you can see this in practice

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Hiroshi
07-15-2010, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
No the rules are you should not be promoting other faiths
Understood.
Originally Posted by aadil77
you can see this in practice
Also in my faith a woman is required to cover her head when she prays or takes the lead in a religious meeting in any way in the presence of a man.
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