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Rabi'ya
07-21-2010, 10:06 PM
:sl: and greeting everyone

(note to mods - please feel free to move this to the most appropriate section inshAllah)

I was informed by a sheikh this week that the Prophet (saw) never ever called anyone a Kafir. Should we then use this word so liberally amongst ourselves. Especially seeing as it causes a lot of upset among non-Muslims (and Muslims alike) As the Prophet is the best of all examples to follow, shouldnt we be following his example?

Just a thought I had, thought maybe I could share it and we can discuss other points of view.
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aadil77
07-21-2010, 10:23 PM
If you know the meaning of kaffir and the conditions to becoming a kaffir, then why not?

The Quran refers to disbelievers as kuffar all the time
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Rabi'ya
07-21-2010, 10:30 PM
Indeed it does. I just wondered peoples opinions on this. What the sheikh was saying, in essence, is that as Muhammas (pbuh) is the best of examples to follow we should not label people as Allah knows truly their intention. Just as the Prophet behaved in a certain manner we should see him as our role model and try to follow his example inshAllah. Every week the sheikh gives examples of how we can improve ourselves as Muslims and improve our relations and conduct in a general manner.

I thought it was an interesting point to make, and would like to see other peoples feedback.
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Zafran
07-22-2010, 01:00 AM
Salaam

Your right and I agree with you - I think the shouting of "Kuffar, Kuffar, Kuffar" wasnt the way of the prophet pbuh because ultimatly Allah swt knows who the real kuffar are and as nobody knows the intentions or whats realy in peoples heart. Its realy not a smart thing to say -

The one that people call kuffar today might even become muslim later - The pagan arabs were far worse but they ended up accepting Islam - I dont think that happend by shouting Kuffar.

peace
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Ummu Sufyaan
07-22-2010, 01:14 AM
wa alykum us-Salaam.
kaafir just means non-muslim.

if a kaafir is willing and acknowledges and call themselves a kaafir, then im not seeing what the problem is?
if allah has called the kaafr a kaafir, again what is the problem?
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cat eyes
07-22-2010, 01:24 AM
sister i think what the imam meant is not to call any ''MUSLIM'' kafir.

but if they openly admit to not practicing the deen and mock the rulings in islam and do innovations and things such as this then the scholars have agreed this person has committed the act of kafir
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Rabi'ya
07-22-2010, 11:44 AM
We were discussing the beliefs of Non-Muslims. Specifically Christians and Jews, but also of those who follow other religions. We were not discussing the calling of Muslims, kaffir
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aadil77
07-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Anyone who rejects islam is a kaffir, we have clear example of kaffirs in this dunya, those that insult our prophet, those that defile our Quran and those who wage wars against islam etc. I'm not gonna stop calling them kaffirs just to please them.
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Insaanah
07-22-2010, 12:39 PM
:sl:

As mentioned, Allah has referred to people as kaafirs in the Qur'an. Rasoolullah :saws: has referred to people (as a group) as kaafirs in the ahadeeth. E.g:

عن أسامة بن زيد رضي الله عنه ، أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال : " لا يرث المسلم الكافر ولا الكافر المسلم " . رواه البخاري ( 6383 ) ومسلم ( 1614 )


A kaafir is that person who rejects the guidance of Islam. It is a word that has been used for such people since the time of the revelation of the Qur'an. Now, the kuffar are viewing it in some way as a derogatory term for them, and thus object to it, and some Muslims are getting embarrassed of the term too. All it means is a person that rejects the guidance of Islam.

No one may be judged to be a kaafir except the one whom the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicate is a kaafir.



Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.



Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance). (Surah Aal Imraan, 3:31-32)



In the Qur'an, Allah uses the present tense of the word for Muslims too:



There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:256)

Here, in the present tense verb form, it is referring to the rejecting of false deities. The most common usage, however, in the Qur'an, is for the rejectance of the guidance of Islam.

Muslims don't object about it's usage for them in the Qur'an. It is simply someone who rejects something.

I see no problem in using the term kaafir correctly if Allah has done so and Rasoolullah :saws: has done so.

:sl:
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Muslim Woman
07-22-2010, 12:42 PM
Salaam

now a days , the word kafir normally used to show hatred / dislike towards them or to degrade them . Sometimes it creates unnecessary tension between Muslims and people of other faiths.

Those who are not Muslims , personally I like to call them non-Muslims.
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aadil77
07-22-2010, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman

Those who are not Muslims , personally I like to call them non-Muslims.
thats because they are non-muslims, we can't call all non-muslims kaffirs

because they may not have rejected islam or even know anything about it
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Ramadhan
07-22-2010, 02:31 PM
I think one of the causes why people of other faiths (ie. kaafirs) feel it is derogatory term is because the word kaafir is usually translated into english as "infidels", which in my opinion is not an accurate translation, although I'm no arabic speaking, but I understand what the word kaafir means in Islam.
Who wants to be called infidel anyway?
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Zafran
07-22-2010, 02:59 PM
salaam

The biggest point everybody misses is that did the propeht Muhammad pbuh actually call people Kafir the way muslims do Today?

peace
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Rabi'ya
07-22-2010, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

The biggest point everybody misses is that did the propeht Muhammad pbuh actually call people Kafir the way muslims do Today?

peace
JazakAllah kheir brother for trying to bring the point back to discussion. I am not asking really whether Allah says in the Quraan. but how the Prophet (pbuh) approached the subject, for he was the kindest person, and most understanding person.

The sheikh was telling a story about how a non-Muslim used to dirty the streets every day and the area around the Prophets(saws) house. Muhammad(pbuh) would clean the street/area each day in order to go about his business. One day the man did not do his usual task, and so the Prophet(saw) called at his house to enquire as to whether the man was ok.

I thought this was such a lovely story as Muhammad(saw) was concerned enough for this guy to ask of his health. not that he was bothered that the guy hadnt disturbed him but depsite him being a non-believer still showed concern for his well-being. and the Prophet(saw) is the best of all examples.....no?
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Insaanah
07-22-2010, 04:24 PM
:sl:

Did you mean directly saying to someone "You are a kaafir?" Generally that's unnecessary, it's like saying to someone, "You are a Christian", when you already know that person is a Christian, it's a bit obvious and goes without saying that they are. I'm not sure if it's wrong, but probably unnecessary as it's mostly obvious. However you can refer to people as kaafirs (but correctly, with the correct grounds), in the same way that you might refer to people as anything else eg Jew, Christian.

It's not the term of insult or ridicule that Muslims and non-Muslims alike are today making it out to be. It is, as stated before, simply someone who has rejected the guidance of Islam. And there is no reason we can't treat the kaafirs in our neighbourhoods kindly.

:sl:
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aadil77
07-22-2010, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by ~SilverOrchid~
JazakAllah kheir brother for trying to bring the point back to discussion. I am not asking really whether Allah says in the Quraan. but how the Prophet (pbuh) approached the subject, for he was the kindest person, and most understanding person.

The sheikh was telling a story about how a non-Muslim used to dirty the streets every day and the area around the Prophets(saws) house. Muhammad(pbuh) would clean the street/area each day in order to go about his business. One day the man did not do his usual task, and so the Prophet(saw) called at his house to enquire as to whether the man was ok.

I thought this was such a lovely story as Muhammad(saw) was concerned enough for this guy to ask of his health. not that he was bothered that the guy hadnt disturbed him but depsite him being a non-believer still showed concern for his well-being. and the Prophet(saw) is the best of all examples.....no?
I'm pretty sure it was a lady and she accepted islam afterwards

The point is no one ever goes up to a kaffir and calls them a kaffir or disbeliever or infidel or any other name. We only ever use those labels when a person or a group of people clearly demonastrate the attributes of those labels.
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~Raindrop~
07-22-2010, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
I'm pretty sure it was a lady and she accepted islam afterwards
There have been narrations regarding both.
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Rabi'ya
07-22-2010, 05:48 PM
Regardless of the gender of the person, i thought it was a beautiful example of the character of the Prophet(saw). The sheikh told another story about a lady who would leave rubbish on Muhammad(pbuh) doorstep also. but either way, it was a lovely story.
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joedawun
07-22-2010, 08:56 PM
No doubt the Prophet Muhammed would present a far more appealing case for Islam than the Muslims on this forum who barely hide their contempt for non Muslims (aka: kaffirs or kufar or whatever derogatory references I have seen presented here). However the dictionary defines the word kuffar, it is frequently thrown out as a derogatory term.

In any case, we all (Muslim & non-Muslim) would benefit if the Prophet Muhammed's example were followed by Muslims. Just saying...
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glo
07-22-2010, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by ~SilverOrchid~
Regardless of the gender of the person, i thought it was a beautiful example of the character of the Prophet(saw). The sheikh told another story about a lady who would leave rubbish on Muhammad(pbuh) doorstep also. but either way, it was a lovely story.
To be treated like that and to react with such grace and humility shows what a great man Muhammad must have been.

I cannot think of many people who would show such self-control, grace and love for their fellow men/women under those circumstances!
It's a tough example to follow ...
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Woodrow
07-22-2010, 09:26 PM
:sl:

I would also like to point out that because of the richness of the language kaffir can be either a simple fact or a very derogatory statement. As a simple statement of fact to point out a person is not Muslim, kaffir need not be a derogatory comment.

But if we are using the word to demean, belittle, humiliate or speak in harshness not out of discription: Just my humble opinion. I believe it is not only permissible then, but an an obligation if we can know a person's intentions and inner thoughts and if we are 100% qualified to unerringly judge who is a kaffir, by all means we should call a kaffir a kaffir, if we are good enough and wise enough to be without error in our judgement.
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glo
07-22-2010, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just my humble opinion. I believe it is not only permissible but an an obligation if we can know a person's intentions and inner thoughts and if we are 100% qualified to unerringly judge who is a kaffir, by all means we should call a kaffir a kaffir.
But surely we can never know for certain or be 100% sure of another person's intentions and inner thoughts? (Indeed I would argue that often even a person him/herself does not fully understand his/her innermost thoughts and feelings)

Unless that is the point you are trying to make, Woodrow ...

After all, God knows best.
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Woodrow
07-22-2010, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
But surely we can never know for certain or be 100% sure of another person's intentions and inner thoughts? (Indeed I would argue that often even a person him/herself does not fully understand his/her innermost thoughts and feelings)

Unless that is the point you are trying to make, Woodrow ...

After all, God knows best.


Either you are very fast or I am very slow. Your reply got in while I was editing and clarifying my post
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glo
07-22-2010, 09:43 PM
Believe me, I am anything but fast, Woodrow.
It was more a case of your comment being very thought-provoking. :)

Anyway, this comment of yours "if we are good enough and wise enough to be without error in our judgement" reminds me a little of 'Let him who is without sin cast the first stone' and of 'Judge not, lest you be judged' ...
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Snowflake
07-22-2010, 09:53 PM
Allah addresses disbelievers as kaffirs so that we can recognise them. That doesn't mean we address them as kaffirs. The Prophets (PBUT) didn't.

If we call non muslims kaffirs then what about reverts? Is it ok for them to call their parents/relatives kaffirs? Of course not.

Allah and His Prophet (saw) instruct muslims to show kindness to his parents - whatever their faith. Birr al-walidain!

And for the rest... "Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers." ([Qur'an 60:8])

Remember every person of another faith believes his/her faith is true. Even if they are ignorant/misguided, they believe in their own way. To say otherwise is an insult. It's kinder and more effective to show them the falsehood of their beliefs.


How Allah addressed the Christians and Jews and how He instructs His messengers to address them:


Say (O Muhammad to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines, those who worshipped Taghut (false deities); such are worse in rank (on the Day of Resurrection in the Hell-fire), and far more astray from the Right Path (in the life of this world)." Surah al Maidah 5:60


O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust). Quran 5:51

And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad (saw) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to Allah) and had becomeAl-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise). Quran 5:65

Say (O Muhammad (saw) "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards guidance) till you act according to the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an)." Verily, that which has been sent down to you (Muhammad (saw) from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve. Quran 5:68

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171)


and this goes on throughout the entire Quran...
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cat eyes
07-23-2010, 08:58 PM
well a kafir is one who rejects islam i do not see it as a bad thing labeling a non muslim kafir when they openly reject islam :hmm:

when they are one so why not call them one? :hmm: its not ignorance on our part. its ignorance on there part for rejecting the truth
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cat eyes
07-23-2010, 09:10 PM
if the scholars says the one who abandons the prayer is a kafir so then it means the scholars are wrong for issuing these fatwas?

Allah uses the term kafir to identify a muslim from a non muslim. nothing wrong in it at all.

the only thing that would be wrong is calling a muslim who has not rejected the kalma a kafir. we are told not to do this.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-23-2010, 09:15 PM
I dont even use the term lol so I dont know why should start using the term...

I just call them non muslim.
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~Raindrop~
07-23-2010, 09:37 PM
Non Muslim can be translated as Kafir :-\
I don't see the difference
It's just a matter of which language you choose.
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brotherubaid
07-23-2010, 10:14 PM
Assalam O Alikum wa rahmatul lahi wa barakatuhu,

Yes shouting kuffar kuffar is not from the ikhlaaq of the muslim , but yes a kafir is a kafir so its not like u cant say sucha person is a kafir.

But the biggest probelm is Muslims calling others Kafir , which is know as Takfeer , which i think we should all stay away from and be very careful in this matter.

The shouting of youth and hizbee partsisan and takfeeris groups against the rulers , the scholars , and muslims is a calamity , it has brought notthing but trouble and destuction to the muslim lands and its effects are not limited to muslim lands but even non muslim lands.

The probelm is that people have taken matters into tehir own hands , all the need is a "scholar" to claim such and such governemt of a muslim country is kafir and its permissible to kill them and anyone dealing with teh government , the revolutions , the revolts , te khurooj , the kidnappings the bombings the destruction and bloodshell n murder all stars with takfeer and teh ignorance of todays takfeeris , may Allah save us and our youth from it and from them.

But there are some thinsg i would like to breifly touch on regarding brother zafran's post , since he has taken the opportunity to speak about a matter that indeed is present in the ummah.

Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

Your right and I agree with you - I think the shouting of "Kuffar, Kuffar, Kuffar" wasnt the way of the prophet pbuh because ultimatly Allah swt knows who the real kuffar are and as nobody knows the intentions or whats realy in peoples heart. Its realy not a smart thing to say -

The one that people call kuffar today might even become muslim later - The pagan arabs were far worse but they ended up accepting Islam - I dont think that happend by shouting Kuffar.

peace
There is a difference between some one calling some one kafir or kuffar! and some one saying such and such group is involved in Shirk.

Shirk can be Minor , Major or even Khafee as teh Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam informed us ina hadeeth that He feared Shirk al khafee onhis Ummah more than the Fithnah of dajjal and when asked what was shirk al khafee he sala lahu alihi wa sallam replied wen a person prays and sees some one looking at him so he beautifies his prayer, meaning Showing off and riyaa!

So shirk be it major , minor or khafee it is HUGE , its is something that NO DEED IN YOUR SCALE WILL BE ABLE TO OUT-WEIGH!

So yes brother zafran , u might be reffering to some sects calling other sects kuffar! or mushrik! or shirki!

But like i said earlier , w must first see what the matter with that sect is

Is it Kufr? Is it shirk? if its shirk is it minor or major? or is it Bidah? Innovation?

what u took the opportunity to talk about probably is the People of sunnah calling people of bidah mushriks and not kafirs (I have never heared any scholar do takfeer of brelvis or any other sufi sect) but yes they do do tabdee of them i-e Call them innovators( with proof offcourse) or Prove with Islamic texts that such and such sect has matters that constitue shirk in its difrenet forms.

Here also i will say that Its not the way of the people of Sunnah to just call out MUSHRIK , SHIRK SHIRK , SHIRKI, BIDDATI , this way no one will ever listen to you nor wil you benefit any one rather it will only bring about more enemosity and hatered and drive people away from you , so here i agree that this is a very ignorant way of CORRECTING others , rather a muslim should give Good advise , naseehah , with proof , with wisdom , with knowledge and evidence and whomever Allah wants to guide Shall e guided.

But now my brother that No one calls others , 1- Innovators! 2- Mushriks , 3- Shirki or shirk without evidence so one should rather look at the evidence and proof and decide and its not enough to say Allah knows whats in the hearts , No akhee when WORST FORMS OF KUFR and SHIRK is uttered from some ones mouth , or recorded in his books then it no longer remains someting in the heart and an intention , rather its common knowledge.

Also it is not fair or safe to say , Allah will judge between us in here after , u know why? Coz lets ASSUME u rellay were upon something that constitues shirk , be it words , qalam , or actions Amal or deeds or beliefs in your heart , So on that Day if u met Allah with those words and statements , those beliefs ,and those actions than it will be TOO LATE , the correction has to be done in this word before death comes to us , we canot say Oh u dont know whats in our hearts , Oh Allah knows who is right and who is wrong!! Yes Indeed Alla knows whats right and whats wrong but DIDNT ALLAH INFORM US!!

DIDNT HE SEND A MESSENGER AND A BOOK?
DIDNT THE MESSENGER SALA LAHU ALIHI WA SALLAM AND HIS COMPANIONS SET PERFECT EXAMPLES IN ALLL THE MATERS OF OUR DEEN?
DIDNT THEY DELIVER THE AMANAH! DIDNT THEY PASS ON THE DEEN TO NEXT GENERATIONS AND EVENTUALLY TO US?

So bro who is right and what is right can only be decided be reffering back to Allah and his messenger and the sahaba n tabieen n those who followed them and the great Imams , the People of hadeetha nd sunnah , the people of narration n isnaad who throughout the eras protected the deen for us.

Imam shafi ithink or malik said " Angels are the protectors of the heaven and People of hadeeth are the protectors of the earth!"
Such a strong statement,

SO this leaves n room to say Allah knows what righta nd whose right, and Allah will judge between us in hereafter coz Akhee al azeez it will be toooo late then if one was not corrected and he did not repent before his death.

The type of people u reffer to as calling others KAFIR anf Kuffar as i have seen are the sufis n brelvis , they call the deo bandis kafir all the time and on top of their lungs , i have never seen such behavior from people of sunnah.

People of sunnah do correct the brelvis etc by refuting n all , and yes they call them bidati innovators and mushriks coz of what they are upon and with knowledge and proof, but i still say if they took the path of mercy and affection and wisdom and kind words and gentlness and good advice it woudl have been better.


And back to your post akhee, If people of sunnah like salafis n "wahhabis" do call some sufi sects Innovators and that they have elements of Shirk in them do u think they say that out of their desires?

What do u call some one who makes tawaf of a grave? Asking the one in the grave DIRECTLY for help!
now here people come and start shouthing tawasul tawasul tawasul , well its not tawasul when u say , Dey Data! GIVE DATA! NOPE , tawasul would sound like Oh ALLAH i ask u to give me for the sake of this righetous servant of yours. This is how tawasul sounds

It will not sound like Ya rasool Alah madad! Oh messenger of ALLAH HELP!!!
if it was tawasul it would sound like OH ALLAH i ask u to help me for the sake of the Prophet ,
it will not sound like YA ghouse Maddad! Oh ghouse (Abdul qadir jeelani help!) it would sound like OH ALLAH i ask u for the sake of abdul qadir!

Whenever some one says ya rasool Allah help , ya ghouse help , its SHIRK! ur asking them not Allah and even if u were making them a waseelah it will still be wrong and non-islamic

there are only three type of permissbile tawasuls n waseelah
1- Call upon Allah with his asmaa al husna(Most beautiful names)
2- Call upon Allah by YOUR good deeds that u did for His sake alone!(Hadeeth of the three trapped in cave)
3- Ask a living righteous person to make dua for u , making his ur waseelah coz u expect himto be pious n all.

there is no fourth to that,coz there is no evidence for no fourth type of waseelah.
That would be tawasul , waseelah , WHICH ALSO WOULD BE WRONG COZ ALLAH , HIS PROPHET AND THE BEST GENERATIONS AFATERWARDS DID NOT DO THAT , they did not understand the texts in the way some understand it , Its not THEIR understanding , its not their way , they heared those ayaat n ahadeeth , they were te best who acted upon everything the heared YET they never did any such things , nor did they celebrate fsetivals on graves and THEY HAD THE BEST GRAVES IN THE WORLD , THE PROPHETS AND HIS COMPANIONS graves!

So Always look at it this way , Are u upon what THEY were upon? Is ur understanding of the deen like theirs?
coz know my brother the deen is ALL about understanding , WHOSE UNDERSTANDING, The prophets? companions' , teh best three generations? Or is it some one who came way after them , Know that they were More knowledgable of the deen teh religion than ALL that came after them.

So always follow the understanding of the prophet and his companions and the pious precedors.

So bro they might scream shirk n innovation! n mushrik for what they see and what they hear not what they feel is inside their hearts , no your actios tell what u are doing so do your words and so do your books and u can see clearly the examples of SHIRK , INNOOVATION AND EVEN KUFR in the books of some sufi sects.

So the accusiation is not based on what we THINK is inside their chests akhee , rather its what they call towards and what they write and say and do.

So do u agree with the festivals on the graves where ALL that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam FORBADE becomes premissible.
SILK FOR MEN , THAT ARE DANCING!
MIXING OF MEN N WOMEN
MUSIC IN ALL ITS VARIETIS
CALLING OTHER THAN ALLAH AND ASKING FROM OTHER THAN ALLAH!

This all ranges bewteen sin t oinnovation ,to shirk to kufr , so all this is clearly present amongs the sufis who are rightly accused of shirk and innovationa nd even kufr coz its evident.

So what about the tawaf of graves n even places where Pious people used to sit?
What about the festivals on graves and calling dead people for help,hence commiting shirk n kufr by callin upon other than all
(This shirk is worst than the arab pagans coz n difficulties they used to call upon ALLAH alone,unlike the mushriks of our time,they cal upon ghouse)
What about the taweezs n what about tying knots on trees n shrines( Its worship of tress ns tones)
What about calling upon other than Allah

WHAT ABOUT GIVING SOME OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF ALLAH TO HIS CREATION

BE IT A PROPHET
OR AN ANGEL
OR A TREE OR A STONE!?

WHAT ABOUT IT ? its not shirk?

Know that whenever u give some siffat attribute of Allah to ANYONE OR ANYTHING u have joined a partner with Allah.
So what about the claims that the prohet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is everywhere n all knowing alll seeing?
what about the calim of him knwoing the unseen
what bout the claim of him being noor?

how about the milion deviations from quran n sunnah that the next person is upon , u want us to stay quiet and wait till day of ressurectin and let Allah decide and judge?

what about when shahbaz qaladanr seats tawaf is done and there is a small Jhoola a swing on it that u have to swing n oh dont forget to put somemoney in it as well and make a dua? wha about jhoolay lal written on your truck or bus even in dubai!

what about 786

what about taking some one above his rank like the christians did with jesus!? wasnt that shirk!

what about the claims that the prophet is amongst us and he vsists us when we do zikr n Allah Hu!

come on akhee , no one calls other mushrks , or screams shirk for no reason , know that walaa and baraa is for Allah , Love and hate is for the sake of Allah and the people of sunnah are out there to correct , yes some might have taken the wrong way of doing so but regardless why dont u give them the benefit of the doubt tha tthey ar eup to their noses and they ahve had enough and they are going crazy watching the ummah drown in the sea of innovation n shirk.



I would sugest u read, akhee i said it before , the fist word revelaved to the prophet sal lahu alihi wa sallam was IQRA!

READ !
read what is tawheed , what constitues tawheed , what are its types and categories and requirmenst , what constitues shirk , what are its types , what opposes tawheed , what is bidah , what are its types , what are its effects and results.

Read and u wil realise that the shirk of the "muslim ummah" is worst than the shirk of arab pagans of makkah!

Read the like sof kitaab at tawheed , Al qawaaid al arbaa , Al usuool al sittah , books on tahweed n shirk n what opposes tawheed.

Stop following those who claim taht who ever says laa laaha illa lah cannot commit shirk or kufr , tawheed is a vast subject that we need to undersatdn first n foremost. those who claim a muslim cannot commit shirk n yet in their poems say WORST FORMS of shirk n KUFR and yet stay muslims? i cannot even write those ugly examples that the books of sufi sects like brelvis are filled with.

may Allah guide us to tawheed n sunnah and the way and understanding of the prophet n sahaba n sala us saalih walahul Muwafiq.
Reply

Zafran
07-23-2010, 10:25 PM
Salaam

No I think this thread was about calling non muslims kaffir and thats what I was refering to.

Doing tafkeer is no go area for the laymen - whatever you follow and whatever "sect" you have a problem with this thread or forum for that matter is not the best place for that anyway.

peace
Reply

Asiyah3
07-29-2010, 05:22 PM
:wa:

A kaafir simply means non-Muslim. What's the big deal?
Reply

Woodrow
08-03-2010, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by **muslimah**
:wa:

A kaafir simply means non-Muslim. What's the big deal?


:sl:

Sometimes the use of a word can make even an inoffensive word offensive. For example in the Lakotah laguage we use the word wasichu. The word directly translates as meaning "White Man" that should not be taken as offensive. However when we speak of the wasichu government in Washington, DC we do intend it to be offensive and our tone of voice will come across as showing we mean it to be offensive. The ancient and traditional enemy of the Lakotah have been the Ojibwah (although we side together against the wasichu) if a Lakotah is angry at an Okibwah he may call him wasichu, and intend it to be an insult and offensive.

Sometimes a harmless or descriptive word can be seen as offensive, depending on the apparant intent of the speaker.

The word Kaffir, when used in it's actual meaning should not be considered offensive and is not intend to be offensive. It all depends on the intent and way in which we use it.
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north_malaysian
08-03-2010, 02:33 AM
In Malaysia, some Muslims have the tendency to use the word "bukan Islam" (Non-Muslim) when there are non-Muslims around... but when there are no Non-Muslims... they'll use the word "Kafir" in reference to the non-Muslims... I wonder if the word "Kafir" is derogatory to Non-Muslims...
Reply

Woodrow
08-03-2010, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
In Malaysia, some Muslims have the tendency to use the word "bukan Islam" (Non-Muslim) when there are non-Muslims around... but when there are no Non-Muslims... they'll use the word "Kafir" in reference to the non-Muslims... I wonder if the word "Kafir" is derogatory to Non-Muslims...

:sl:

I assume to some it is offensive. But sometimes this is because of the poor quality of Arabic to English translations compiled with poor usage of English even by native English speakers. Kafir is often poorly translated into English as "Infidel" while one of the meanings of infidel is "non-believer" it is more specifically refering to being "A person who does not follow Christianity" So to some people when they are called Kafir they feel they are being called "Non-Christian"

It can also be thought to be offensive, because of the tone of voice used when referring to a person as kafir, like in the example of wasichu I gave above.
Reply

nousername
08-03-2010, 03:38 AM
I think what the sheik means is when Muslims sometimes hurt things at non-Muslims such as "dirty kuffar" "stupid kuffar", etc. Those kind of people make the word kuffar seem like a cuss word, instead of just meaning non believer.
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