Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

[Parture]

If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then when he presented himself to the original apostles, he could not have been in the physical condition to make them think that he was resurrected from the dead, yet those original apostles who spent 3 years with Jesus set up the churches on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

Those same apostles willingly were put to death for their eyewitness testimony proving they truly believed they had seen, talked with and touched Jesus after he raised himself from the dead.

Jesus could not have lied nor could the disciples have, nor would God deceive them, so we are left with only one conclusion: Jesus died and resurrected and this is no difficulty for Jesus because He created the whole universe with the Father and by the Spirit in the Trinity of God.

The disciples were not deceived because there would have to be deception in multiple group appearances of Jesus, yet we know Satan is unable to do this because according to modern psychology and the historical record there has never been group hallucinations (seeing something that is not there) though individual hallucinations can occur. There are at least twelve accounts of different groups of individuals claiming to have seen Jesus resurrected bodily.

Paul said he spent time with Peter (for 15 days) and James a few years after the cross, later on with John, and they met up again on several occasions, who imparted to Paul the early creed of the gospel of salvation through the atonement by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection unto eternal life they themselves had seen well testified in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and agreed by even most critical scholars this was truly Paul's very own words and writings.

Or one could say it this way...

Every single book of the New Testament (27 books)--by Matthew, Mark, Peter, James, John, Jude, Luke and Paul--speaks of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you believe Jesus didn't die and you think the original 11 apostles never founded the churches based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, then why wasn't anyone saying to the contrary, especially those 11 disciples who were in a position to know better than anyone for they had spent 3 years with Jesus and 40 days after he was resurrected?

There is no oral tradition or written record from or about them saying the churches were not actually founded on the death and resurrection of Jesus. And second generation apostles who knew Peter and John personally such as Clement of Rome and Polycarp also testified that this is what they taught. I am left with no option other than Jesus is God and proved it by His resurrection for no man can resurrect himself, or for that matter, another man unless He is God. Amen.

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace


hey , u posted the same thread twice. Pl. delete one. Thanks.

[marwen]

I am left with no option other than Jesus is God and proved it by His resurrection for no man can resurrect himself, or for that matter, another man unless He is God.

Greetings Parture,

I don't think only a man can't resurrect himself. A god also can't resurrect himself if he's dead (If I understood well the definition of dead).
Now if you say that Jesus is resurrected by another God, that could be more plausible.

Concerning the question if the crucifixion took place or not, there is a lot of arguments against the crucifixion also, and a lot of debates on this topic. You can find them in this forum or in other sites.

[جوري]

Did Jesus Die on the Cross?

No!
and I imagine you should be more adamant about that than Muslims, for you consider Jesus to be your God, imagine the death of god after choosing ineffectual apostles who couldn't shoulder his message, that he had to come back to whisper his abrogations in a charlatan's ears!

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[Parture]

When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.

The disciple whom Jesus said He loved most quoted Jesus saying, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).

[جوري]

When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.

The disciple whom Jesus said He loved most quoted Jesus saying, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).

these convoluted tall tales are more illogical than Hinduism.. did your god speak english btw, 'cause we are under the impression the mangod is a middle easterner from west Asia?

are you trying to convince us or yourself with your silliness? we have a couple of other annoying bible thumpers here, how about grabbing them and taking them back to the dark ages of christianity somewhere far away from the rest of us?

all the best

[Danah]

I saw a very similar post to this one in another forum with some few changes.

Are you the same "Parture" in Islamic-Life forums ?

[جوري]

I saw a very similar post to this one in another forum with some few changes.

Are you the same "Parture" in Islamic-Life forums ?

can't be that many fools left in the world believing in this nonsense.. christianity is a dwindling religion... visit any western country on the web and look at their population stats, Christianity is becoming obsolete at a rate of one percent annually .. another 60~70 yrs christians will be confined to small loculated tribes of folks who prefer to bury their face in the sand than possess simple common sense!

:w:

[Rabi Mansur]

:sl:

Parture, ask yourself this question: WHY would Jesus have to pay the price for sin? Think about that question a little bit.

The whole sum and substance of Christianity boils down to the atonement. Jesus paid for your sins on the cross. You could not pay the price, so Jesus stepped in and did it for you. He is therefore your Savior.

But, here is the problem with that line of thinking. God is omnipotent. He can forgive whomever. If Jesus had to die on the cross for your sins, then God really wasn't omnipotent was he? What kind of a sadistic God would make someone suffer such a horrible torment on behalf of other people to satisfy some kind of warped sense of justice? That is not the kind of God that is omnipotent. An omnipotent God can forgive you of your sins, he is not bound by a warped sadistic attempt to make someone else pay for your sins.

The Qur'an says that the Jews did not crucify Jesus but it was made to appear that they did. Allah swt took him up. He did not die on the cross.

Peace.

[nousername]

this guy did the same thing on ummah forum. he has an agenda

[nousername]

he also claims the world is 10,000 years old... if that were the case cavemen would have rode upon dinosaurs backs! lol

[Parture]

Why would Jesus have to pay for our sins? Because if we were to pay for them we would have to spend eternity in Hell. Even one little sin eternally separates you from God, leads to death and the second death which is Hell.

God is not unrighteous, He can't forgiven unrighteously. God really showed Himself omnipotent by being able to raise Himself from the grave.

There is more. God is personal and relationally like the 3 Persons in His Godhead and wants to be with His creation in person. He doesn't want to operate like an absentee landlord. There is nothing more intimate than what He did for us on the cross using this evil perpetrated against (even by those who deny His death, deity and resurrection) him for good to pay for the sins of the world. There is no greater love.

To me it is sadistic for someone to sin and no penalty have to be paid. When a criminal goes to jail they may have repented of their crime, but they still have to pay the penalty. How can God's standards be less than our own? Justice without penalty is without substance. Someone owes a debt. The creditor can forgive the debt but in so doing incurs the loss upon himself. If you are old and wise and had a child who committed a crime with the love that you have for the child would you go to jail in her place if you knew she really repented of her crime, so she could live out the rest of her life? This is what God does for us. This is the love of Christ. Would your god do this? Maybe he is powerless to be able to or too selfish to do so.

You still have the same problem presented in the opening post. God would not deceive the disciples, though Satan may try to, but group hallucinations are impossible and they didn't lie, so unless you are able to solve this problem, you can understand why Christians are Christians and many Muslims become Christians.

Jesus will return at the end of the 7 year Tribulation to destroy the wicked nations The Dome on the Rock will be destroyed before the 7 year Tribulation even commences and replaced with the 3rd Temple from where Christ will reign in person for 1000 years on earth. The temple is to be completed with 2300 days left to the 2,520 days of the Tribulation.

Christians are God's chosen people to reign with Him over the nations (Rev. 2.26): those believers who overcometh; whereas non-overcomer Christians lose this reward and disciplined and made ready for the New City afterwards. If you are not a Christian, you're not saved and if you are not saved you will be resurrected for Hell. You admit you want to be eternally separated from the God who paid for our sins and resurrected the 3rd day.

[جوري]

he also claims the world is 10,000 years old... if that were the case cavemen would have rode upon dinosaurs backs! lol

well at least they added another 4000, I know some xtians who believe it is just 6000 yrs old.. it is pitiable really..

:w:

[Parture]

Christians don't believe the world is 10,000 years old. We believe it is billions of years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years.

We believe that 6000 years ago was the first Adamic man, that is, the first God-conscious man when God breathed the breath of life directly creating man's spirit, and when the spirit made contact with the body from dust (Gen. 2.7) the soul life was formed. Man became a living soul with a spirit and a body (Heb.4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23).

[جوري]

Christians don't believe the world is 10,000 years old. We believe it is billions of years old and the universe is 13.7 billion years.

We believe that 6000 years ago was the first Adamic man, that is, the first God-conscious man when God breathed the breath of life directly creating man's spirit, and when the spirit made contact with the body from dust (Gen. 2.7) the soul life was formed. Man became a living soul with a spirit and a body (Heb.4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23).

sure you do.. whatever you say-- you must be really proud of your accomplishment ;D

[Parture]

What accomplishment? Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast.

[جوري]

:welcome: aboard, have you seen a psychiatrist?

[Parture]

A psychiatrist can't save you and get you to be logical to realize that since the churches were built on the resurrection by the original disciples and group hallucinations are impossible and the disciples didn't lie and Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah all beat up if hadn't died, then the problem must be a spirit of hostility and disobedience to God in you.

[Rabi Mansur]

Why would Jesus have to pay for our sins? Because if we were to pay for them we would have to spend eternity in Hell. Even one little sin eternally separates you from God, leads to death and the second death which is Hell.

God is not unrighteous, He can't forgiven unrighteously. God really showed Himself omnipotent by being able to raise Himself from the grave.

There is more. God is personal and relationally like the 3 Persons in His Godhead and wants to be with His creation in person. He doesn't want to operate like an absentee landlord. There is nothing more intimate than what He did for us on the cross using this evil perpetrated against (even by those who deny His death, deity and resurrection) him for good to pay for the sins of the world. There is no greater love.

To me it is sadistic for someone to sin and no penalty have to be paid. When a criminal goes to jail they may have repented of their crime, but they still have to pay the penalty. How can God's standards be less than our own? Justice without penalty is without substance. Someone owes a debt. The creditor can forgive the debt but in so doing incurs the loss upon himself. If you are old and wise and had a child who committed a crime with the love that you have for the child would you go to jail in her place if you knew she really repented of her crime, so she could live out the rest of her life? This is what God does for us. This is the love of Christ. Would your god do this? Maybe he is powerless to be able to or too selfish to do so.

You still have the same problem presented in the opening post. God would not deceive the disciples, though Satan may try to, but group hallucinations are impossible and they didn't lie, so unless you are able to solve this problem, you can understand why Christians are Christians and many Muslims become Christians.

Jesus will return at the end of the 7 year Tribulation to destroy the wicked nations The Dome on the Rock will be destroyed before the 7 year Tribulation even commences and replaced with the 3rd Temple from where Christ will reign in person for 1000 years on earth. The temple is to be completed with 2300 days left to the 2,520 days of the Tribulation.

Christians are God's chosen people to reign with Him over the nations (Rev. 2.26): those believers who overcometh; whereas non-overcomer Christians lose this reward and disciplined and made ready for the New City afterwards. If you are not a Christian, you're not saved and if you are not saved you will be resurrected for Hell. You admit you want to be eternally separated from the God who paid for our sins and resurrected the 3rd day.

:sl:
Here are just a few thoughts for you. Who says that even the tiniest sin must be PAID for? Who says that it must be paid for or else you would spend eternity in hell? Paid how? Who says that you can't repent? These are all things that the church has promulgated over the years. God is omnipotent. If you repent, he can forgive you. It is up to Allah swt, not a bunch of rules promulgated by a church.

I'm not saying that there is no penalty paid for a sin. But think about it, if you repent and God forgives you for it, why does there have to be a blood-letting to cover it up? That is something that makes no sense. God has power to forgive, he is omniscient, he knows your heart, he is omnipotent, he is all powerful. He can forgive you.

You talk about sin like it is a debit/credit situation, that if a sin is forgiven it still has to be paid for by someone. Says who? You? The Catholic church? When a debt is forgiven by a creditor it is wiped off the books. It is not paid by someone else.

You also keep saying that God would not deceive the apostles. My friend, you need to study the history of the bible and the gospels especially. Those accounts are NOT eye witness. They were written with an agenda many years after the fact. The oldest gospel is Mark. The original ending of Mark abruptly ends with the tomb being empty but there is no account of anyone seeing Jesus in the oldest ending of Mark. The accounts of him being seen by Mary and others were added later.

You also cite Revelation 2:26 that Christians will rule with Jesus and he will destroy the rest of us. Whatever. Take a real serious look at the book of Revelation. Do some objective study. It was in the bible, then out of the bible, then in the canon then out of the canon, etc. Can you really rely on the book of Revelation? Many great christians felt that it was not canonical. Did Martin Luther believe it should have been in the bible? IIRC I don't think he did. Revelation has never really been accepted by all christians as part of the canon, is it allegorical? The early christians thought it should not be taken literally. I wouldn't stake my salvation on the book of Revelation. It is doubtful that it should have been part of the new testament.

YOu also say that there will be a tribulation and the temple will be rebuilt and the dome of the rock destroyed in a certain number of days, etc. Says who? You? Are you a prophet? You are just imposing some form of evangelical interpretation on the text of the bible. I can also cite a number of Christian preterists who make a persuasive case that those things have already occurred. Who is right? YOu? The pretereists?

You are not going to persuade anyone here that you have come to this forum with some special knowledge that we need to pay attention to you. Sorry. These arguements have been handled before.

Peace and Love.

[جوري]

A psychiatrist can't save you and get you to be logical to realize that since the churches were built on the resurrection by the original disciples and group hallucinations are impossible and the disciples didn't lie and Jesus wouldn't look much like a risen Messiah all beat up if hadn't died, then the problem must be a spirit of hostility and disobedience to God in you.

aha

how is all that working out for you? why not start a tent by the airport lawdy lawdy and heal some lepers .. hallelujah praise the lawd

[جوري]

I can't believe anyone is responding to this guy with other than what he deserves..

here are a few failed prophecies that he should work on for the next 50 yrs.

1. Genesis
   
2. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
   God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17
3. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12
4. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
5. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13
6. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen.21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen.35:22-23), Kohath (Ex.6:16), Amramn (Ex.6:18), and Moses (Ex.6:20). 15:16
7. God promises Abram's descendants the land of Canaan from the Nile to the Euphrates. But according to Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13 God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 15:18
8. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4
9. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10
10. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2
11. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
12. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
13. "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
    Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12
14. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24 Exodus
15. God promises to cast out many nations including the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 33:2
16. In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1 Leviticus (None)
    Numbers
17. "If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will ... speak unto him in a dream." Now there's a reliable way to communicate with someone! 12:6 Deuteronomy
18. God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1
19. God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. But according to Joshua ( 15:63, 16:10, 17:12-13) and Judges (1:21, 27-36, 3:1-5) there were some people they just couldn't kill. 7:24
20. Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15
21. Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5
22. False prophets are to be (you guessed it) executed. How do you know who is a false prophet? By whether or not their predictions come true. (Watch out Jehovah's Witnesses!) 18:20
23. Misquoted in Rom.10:8. 30:14
24. God promises to "destroy these nations before thee." That he didn't keep his promise see Jos.15:63, 16:10, Jg.1:21, 1:27-36, and 3:1-5. 31:3-6 Joshua
25. God promises to give Joshua all of the land that his "foot shall tread upon." He says that none of the people he encounters will be able to resist him. But later we find that God didn't keep his promise, and that many tribes withstood Joshua's attempt to steal their land. 1:3-5
26. Joshua tells the Israelites that God will "without fail" drive out the Canaanites and the Jebusites. But later, the Bible tells us that he could not drive them out. 3:10
27. This verse says that Ai was never again occupied after it was destroyed by Joshua. But Nehemiah (7:32) lists it among the cities of Israel at the time of the Babylonian captivity. 8:28
28. God promised the Israelites that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they pass through. But this verse shows that he didn't keep his promise since he couldn't drive out the Jebusites. 15:63
29. "And they drave not out the Canaanites." Once again God fails keep his promise to destroy all the people the Israelites encounter. 16:10
30. The Israelites, contrary to God's promises to them, could not drive out the Canaanites. 17:12-13
31. Joshua tells Manasseh that he will be able to drive out the Canaanites, but it turns out (see Jg.1:27-28) that he couldn't do it. 17:17-18
32. According to these verses, God fulfilled his promise to give the Israelites all of the lands that they encountered. But in several places the Bible tells us that these promises were not kept. 21:43-45 Judges
33. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 1:21, 27-30
34. God promised many times that he would drive out all the inhabitants of the lands they encountered. But these verses show that God failed to keep his promise since he was unable to drive out the Canaanites. 3:1-5 Ruth (None)
    1 Samuel (None)
    2 Samuel
35. "Thy kingdom shall be established for ever."
    God says that Davids's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16 1 Kings
36. God puts a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his prophets. 22:22 2 Kings
37. God promises Josiah that he will have a peaceful death. But Josiah's death was anything but peaceful. (2 Kg.23:29-30, 2 Chr.35:23-24) 22:20
38. In Jeremiah (34:4) God tells Zedekiah that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But this verse and Jer.52:10-11 say that he died a violent death in a foreign land. 25:7 1 Chronicles (None)
    2 Chronicles
39. The trouble with prophets 18:5-34
40. God puts lies into the mouths of his prophets and speaks evil about people. 18:21-22
41. Josiah died from an arrow wound in battle, not "in peace" as is promised in 2 Kg.22:20. 35:23 Ezra (None)
    Nehemiah (None)
    Esther (None)
    Job (None)
    Psalms
42. Misquoted in Heb.10:5-6. 40:6
43. Misquoted in Eph.4:8, which says: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."
    Paul changed the words and meaning of the psalm from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 68:18
44. Misquoted in Mt.13:35. 78:2-3
45. "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 89:3-4, 34-37 Proverbs (None)
    Ecclesiastes (None)
    Song of Solomon (None) (None)
    Isaiah
46. God told Isaiah to tell Ahaz, the King of Judah, not to be concerned about Rezin (the king of Syria) or Pekah (the king of Israel). But according to 2 Chr.28:5-6 "God delivered him [Ahaz] into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter." 7:3-7
47. The King James Version mistranslates the Hebrew word "almah", which means "young woman" as "virgin". (The Hebrew word, "bethulah", means "virgin".) In addition, the young woman referred to in this verse was living at the time of the prophecy. And Jesus, of course, was called Jesus -- and is not called Emmanuel in any verse in the New Testament. 7:14
48. These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
49. Dragons will live in Babylonian palaces and satyrs will dance there. 13:21-22
50. This verse prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities. 17:1
51. The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5
52. "The land of Judah shall be a terror unto Egypt." Judah never invaded Egypt and was never a military threat to Egypt. 19:17
53. This verse predicts that there shall be five cities in Egypt that speak the Canaanite language. But that language was never spoken in Egypt, and it is extinct now. 19:18
54. These verses predict that the Egyptians will worship the Lord (Yahweh) with sacrifices and offerings. But Judaism has never been an important religion in Egypt. 19:18-21
55. These verses predict that there will be an alliance between Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. But there has never been any such alliance, and it's unlikely that it ever will since Assyria no longer exists. 19:23-24
56. "They have ... changed the ordinance. There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone."
    Is this a prophecy about prohibition in the United States? 24:5-11
57. "The priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink." You can't even trust a drunken prophet anymore. 28:7
58. Misquoted in Rom.9:33. 28:16
59. "The light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold." Well, this is one prophecy that will never come true. Since the moon has no light of its own, but only reflects that of the sun, it could never shine like the sun. And the sun will not, at least not while there are humans to see it, shine 7 times as bright as it does now. 30:26
60. "The host of heaven shall be dissolved ... and ... shall fall down."
    The stars will dissolve and fall from the sky. 34:4
61. "The cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it."
    Edom will become a birdwatcher's paradise. 34:11
62. "Henceforth there shall no more come into thee [Jerusalem] the uncircumcised and the unclean." But many uncircumcised people have visited and occupied Jerusalem after this prophecy was made. 52:1
63. Nations that do not serve Israel will perish. 60:12
64. "The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me."
    These words were spoken by Isaiah and referred to Isaiah. They were not a prophecy about a future prophet, as Jesus claimed in Luke 4:16-19, where he supposedly read these verses in the synagogue while applying them to himself. 61:1-2 Jeremiah
65. Jeremiah prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened. 3:17
66. Apparently, prophets that preach good news and tidings anger God. So he will kill them. 5:12-13
67. "The prophets prophesy falsely." 5:31
68. God will make Jerusalem "a den of dragons." 9:11
69. Judah will become a desolate den of dragons. 10:22
70. "The prophets prophesy lies" in God's name. 14:14
71. God will destroy by famine and sword those who are misled by the prophets, as well as the prophets themselves. 14:15-16
72. Matthew (1:12) lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus -- which, according to this prophecy, disqualifies Jesus as the Messiah. 22:28-30
73. God finds some wicked prophets and priests. Like Jeremiah, maybe? 23:11
74. God says he is going to punish Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians for what they have done to his people -- even though God Himself is the one who made the Babylonians attack and enslave Judah! As part of the punishment God will take the land of the Babylonians and "make it perpetual desolations." A false prophecy, since present-day Iraq is quite occupied.25:12
75. God kills Hananiah for prophesying falsely. 28:16-17
76. God will kill those who refuse listen to his prophets. 29:19
77. Matthew (2:17-18) quotes this verse, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this passage refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 31:15
78. Misquoted in Heb.8:9. 31:32
79. "David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today. 33:17
80. God lies to Zedekiah again by telling him that he will die in peace and be buried with his fathers. But later (2 Kg.25:7 and Jer.52:10-11) he dies a violent death in a foreign land. 34:2, 5
81. The beginning of the end for Zedekiah. Despite God's earlier assurances (34:5) that he would die peacefully at home, here Zedekiah watches as his children are killed and then has his eyes put out and he is shackled and taken to Babylon. 39:6-7
82. All those who move to Egypt will die by the sword, famine, or pestilence. None "shall escape from the evil" that comes directly from God. But many, including Jews, have moved to Egypt and most seem to have escaped from God's promised evil. 42:15-18, 22
83. Jeremiah predicts that humans will never again live in Hazor, but will be replaced by dragons. But people still live there and dragons have never been seen. 49:33
84. God prophesies that Babylon will never again be inhabited. But it has been inhabited constantly since the prophecy was supposedly made, and is inhabited still today. 50:39
85. God says that Babylon will be desolate and uninhabited forever. He says that only dragons will live there. But Babylon has been dragon-free and continuously inhabited since then. 51:26, 29, 37, 43, 62, 64
86. God promised Zedekiah (Jer.34:5) that he would die peacefully and be buried with his fathers. But here we see that he died a miserable death in foreign land. 52:10-11 Lamentations
87. The "prophets also find no vision from the LORD." 2:9
88. "Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee." 2:14 Ezekiel
89. God deceives some of his prophets and then kills them for believing his lies. 14:9
90. Ezekiel Prophesies (in the 6th century BCE) that Ammonites will not be remembered any more. They continued to exist until the 2nd century CE. (And they are still remembered in the Bible.) 21:28-32
91. Ezekiel prophesies that Tyrus will be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar and will never be built again. But it wasn't destroyed, as evidenced by the visits to Tyre by Jesus and Paul (Mt.15:21, Mk.7:24, 31, Acts 21:3). 26:14,21, 27:36, 28:19
92. Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will reside in their homeland safely and securely, never again to fight neighboring nations. 28:24-26
93. Ezekiel makes another false prophecy: that Egypt would be uninhabited by humans or animals for forty years after being destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar. But there was never a time when Egypt was uninhabited. Humans and animals have lived there continuously since Ezekiel's prophecy. 29:10-13
94. "The day ... of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen." God plans to wipe out the heathen. When? Soon. Really soon. 30:3
95. The rivers of Egypt (identified as the Nile in NIV, NASB, and RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 30:12
96. Ezekiel prophesies God will protect the Israelites from "the heathen". "And they shall be safe in their land." But the Israelites have never lived peacefully with their neighbors, and they've never been safe from attack. 34:28-29 Romans
97. Misquote of Is.28:16. 9:33
98. Paul misquotes Dt.30:14, leaving off the words "that thou mayest do it" and adding "that is, the word of faith which we preach." By doing so he completely changed the meaning of quoted verse (that it is necessary to follow the Law) to support his doctrine of salvation by faith alone. 108:
99. Paul says that everyone, even in his day, had the gospel preached to them. Even the Native Americans, Asians, Pacific Islanders? In any case, if Paul is right about that, then Jesus is a false prophet, since he said he would return before the gospel was preached to everyone. (Mt.10:23) 10:18
100. Paul believed that the end of the world was coming soon. "The day is at hand." 13:11-12
101. Paul believed that Jesus would return and defeat Satan "shortly" -- within his own lifetime. 16:20 1 Corinthians
102. Paul tells the Corinthians to be good until "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (He expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes.) 1:7-8
103. Paul, like Jesus and the other New Testament writers, expects the end to come soon. "The time is short." So there's no time for sex or marriage since the world will be ending soon. 7:29
104. Paul says that the end of the world will come during his lifetime. 10:11, 15:51
105. "Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail."
     Paul prophesies that all prophecies will fail. But since this itself is a prophecy, it also will fail (if the prophecy is correct), making it a false prophecy. 13:8
106. These verses claim that the scriptures prophesied that Jesus would suffer, die, and be resurrected from the dead. But where are the prophecies that are referred to here? Hosea 6:2 perhaps? But this verse refers to the people living at the time (hence "us") and therefore cannot be fulfilled by the the death and resurrection of Jesus. 15:3-4 2 Corinthians (None)
     Galatians (None)
     Ephesians
107. Misquote of Ps.68:18, which says: "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men."
     The words and meaning of the psalm were changed from "received gifts" to "gave gifts". 4:8 Philippians
108. Paul tells the Philippians to be good "till the day of Christ." So he must have expected Jesus to return within their lifetimes. 1:10
109. "The Lord is at hand." Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. 4:5 Colossians (None)
     1 Thessalonians
110. Paul expected Jesus to return within the lifetime of his followers. 3:13
111. Paul thought he would live to see the rapture. 4:15, 17
112. Paul prays that the Thessalonians will be good until Jesus returns, implying that he expected this to happen within their lifetimes. 5:23 2 Thessalonians
113. The day of Christ is at hand?
     If Paul wrote this letter (and many scholars think he didn't1), then he is changing his mind about the timing of the Christ's return. The day of the Lord is no longer at hand. In fact it's nowhere near. Many things must happen first: there will be a great "falling away", a "man of sin" will be reveled, and Satan will show off his power by doing all kinds of signs and wonders. 2:2-9 1 Timothy
114. "Keep this commandment ... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."
     The author expected Jesus to return within his lifetime. 6:14 2 Timothy (none)
     Titus (none)
     Philemon (None)
     Hebrews
115. The author of Hebrews believed that he was living in the "last days." 1:1-2
116. Misquote of Jer.31:32 8:9
117. Jesus sacrificed himself "in the end of the world." 9:26
118. Misquote of Ps.40:6 10:5-6
119. The author of Hebrews believed that Jesus would come "in a little while, and will not tarry." 10:37
120. In Genesis (13:15, 15:18, 17:8) and Exodus (32:13) God promises Abraham and his descendants "the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession." But here Paul admits that God's promise went unfulfilled. 11:9-13 James
121. James quotes a scripture that says, "The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy." But there is no such verse in the Bible. 4:5
122. James thought that Jesus would return soon. 5:8 1 Peter
123. Peter believed that he was living in the "last times." 1:5, 7, 20
124. "The end of all things is at hand." 4:7 2 Peter
125. "Where is the promise of his coming?"
     The author of 2 Peter is aware of the failed expectations of early believers. He knows that Jesus, who was to come soon, didn't come at all. Many have begun to ask, "Where is the promise of his coming?" He tries to cover for Jesus by claiming that "one day with the Lord is as a thousand years." 3:4 1 John
126. John thinks he is living in "the last times." He "knows" this because he sees so many antichrists around. 2:18, 4:3
127. John warns his followers to get ready because Jesus is coming soon. 2:28
128. John expects to live to see Jesus return. 3:2 2 John (None)
     3 John (None)
     Jude
129. Jude says Enoch, "the seventh from Adam", prophesied that God would come with 10,000 of his saints "to execute judgment upon all." But this prophecy is from the Book of Enoch, not from the Bible. 14-15
130. "Remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles" ... that they told you there should be mockers in the last time."
     The author of Jude thought he was living in "the last time." 17-18 Revelation
131. John believed that the things that he wrote about would happen soon, within his own lifetime. After nearly 2000 years, believers still believe that "the time is at hand" and that the events described in Revelation will "shortly come to pass." 1:1, 3
132. "Every eye shall see him," including those who executed him. Everyone will "wail because of him." But millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds." 1:7
133. John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying, "Behold, I come quickly." 3:11, 22:7, 12, 20
134. "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth...." To John, the stars are just little lights a few miles away that can easily fall to the earth. 6:13
135. "And the name of the star is called Wormwood."
     Some believers say that the 1986 nuclear disaster at Chernobyl was the fulfillment of the third trumpet in 8:10-11. 8:10-11
136. "And there was no more sea."
     For an old sailor like me, this verse, if it were true, would be one of the saddest verses in the bible. 21:1
137. "Things which must shortly be done"
     All the crazy stuff in this book was supposed to happen soon. And crazy people today still expect it to happen soon. 22:6

maybe they can reconvene and re-write it to be more believable?

[Rabi Mansur]

What accomplishment? Salvation is not by works, lest any man should boast.

I thought that the book of James said that "Faith WITHOUT works is dead."

Hmmm. Another bible contradiction. Am I to put my trust in James or Paul?

Peace.

[Parture]

I thought that the book of James said that "Faith WITHOUT works is dead."

Hmmm. Another bible contradiction. Am I to put my trust in James or Paul?

Peace.

Ya, true faith has works that flow from it, but the works themselves don't give you initial salvation. We must undersand the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit not by our fleshly way of thinking.

[Parture]

1. Genesis

Let's start with the first one. I am not clear what prophecy you are talking about by stating "Genesis".

[Parture]

Here are just a few thoughts for you. Who says that even the tiniest sin must be PAID for?

We all have a sin that must be paid for.

[~Raindrop~]

******edit******

[Parture]

You also keep saying that God would not deceive the apostles. My friend, you need to study the history of the bible and the gospels especially. Those accounts are NOT eye witness. They were written with an agenda many years after the fact. The oldest gospel is Mark. The original ending of Mark abruptly ends with the tomb being empty but there is no account of anyone seeing Jesus in the oldest ending of Mark. The accounts of him being seen by Mary and others were added later.

Isn't it evil to deceive?

Are you saying the disciples who spent 3 years with Jesus never saw him again after Simon took the cross from Jesus after Jesus was scourged down to the bone?

How come we find no records of Peter, John, James, Mark, Luke, Jude or Matthew disputing the claim they had not seen Jesus alive from the dead, for surely they would have heard the circulating stories at the time by what you claim Paul was misrepresenting in setting up so many churches across several provinces?

[YusufNoor]

If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then when he presented himself to the original apostles, he could not have been in the physical condition to make them think that he was resurrected from the dead, yet those original apostles who spent 3 years with Jesus set up the churches on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

actually, this is a common this perception by most Christians. If we rule out evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, the remaining scholars give us the following approximate dates of the Gospels: Mark 65 to 75 A.D.; Matthew and Luke 85A.D.; and John around the year 95. if we take a look at the earliest of these Gospels, Mark, we need to investigate Chapter 16. If you pull out your Zondervan study Bible and take a look at this chapter, we see that in the oldest versions of Mark, no apostles see Jesus after his alleged death and resurrection. That my friend is history. If the apostles were the same age as Jesus than in the year 65 they would be close to 70 years old and that the gospel when written to the year 75 they would be near 80 years old. It is not until around the year 85 A.D. that we have Gospels in which the apostles see the resurrected Jesus. That's 65 years after this alleged reunion.

Those same apostles willingly were put to death for their eyewitness testimony proving they truly believed they had seen, talked with and touched Jesus after he raised himself from the dead.

thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers died in World War II believing they were dying for their Emperor who they believed was God. The fact that the Emperor was not God did not prevent them from dying in that belief, and yet they all died willingly. Not one out of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of deaths proved what they believed was true.

Jesus could not have lied nor could the disciples have, nor would God deceive them, so we are left with only one conclusion: Jesus died and resurrected and this is no difficulty for Jesus because He created the whole universe with the Father and by the Spirit in the Trinity of God.

nothing whatsoever on the planet could have prevented any and all of the authors of the Gospels from lying. In fact we can show some of the lies and also that their stories contradict each other. Perhaps this is because we do not have any contemporary testimony by either Jesus or any of his disciples. The closest thing would be first Peter dated by some around the year 64 A.D.; but considered by others to be a author unknown and around the year 112 A.D. your conclusion therefore has no weight. You also mention this pagan concept of a Trinity defined as three gods but not three gods and yet there are three!? Even with the inferior ratings that now exist within Christianity known as the New Testament, at no at no point in our at any time does Jesus or a single apostle every use the word Trinity. In fact one of the last books written in the New Testament, the Gospel of John, clearly states the presence of two gods.

The disciples were not deceived because there would have to be deception in multiple group appearances of Jesus, yet we know Satan is unable to do this because according to modern psychology and the historical record there has never been group hallucinations (seeing something that is not there) though individual hallucinations can occur. There are at least twelve accounts of different groups of individuals claiming to have seen Jesus resurrected bodily.

according to you, there is no such thing as a group hallucination. And yet let me print this ayah from the Qur'an, chapter 54:1:

Sahih International
The Hour has come near, and the moon has split [in two].
Muhsin Khan
The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
The Hour has drawn near, the Resurrection is close at hand, and the moon has split, it broke in two at [Mount] Abū Qubays and Qu‘ayqa‘ān, as a sign for the Prophet (s), for it had been demanded of him, and [when it took place] he said, ‘Bear witness [now]!’ — as reported by the two Shaykhs [al-Bukhārī and Muslim].

you will be the first to claiming group hallucination. unless of course you are now willing to claim because the people of Mecca saw the moon split in 2 that the Prophet did in fact perform this miracle. However I imagine the odds of you claiming that every miracle performed by Rusoolullah was instead a good hallucination by the Sahabah are in fact incredibly. I will show you an example of Christian mass hallucination below, In Sha'a Allah.

Paul said he spent time with Peter (for 15 days) and James a few years after the cross, later on with John, and they met up again on several occasions, who imparted to Paul the early creed of the gospel of salvation through the atonement by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection unto eternal life they themselves had seen well testified in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and agreed by even most critical scholars this was truly Paul's very own words and writings.

this is in fact a massive, massive, massive group hallucination by Christians. I will explain below.

Or one could say it this way...

Every single book of the New Testament (27 books)--by Matthew, Mark, Peter, James, John, Jude, Luke and Paul--speaks of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you believe Jesus didn't die and you think the original 11 apostles never founded the churches based on the death and resurrection of Jesus, then why wasn't anyone saying to the contrary, especially those 11 disciples who were in a position to know better than anyone for they had spent 3 years with Jesus and 40 days after he was resurrected?

none of the Christian books are authentic and therefore unless something is confirmed in the Qur'an, we must pay no heed.

There is no oral tradition or written record from or about them saying the churches were not actually founded on the death and resurrection of Jesus. And second generation apostles who knew Peter and John personally such as Clement of Rome and Polycarp also testified that this is what they taught. I am left with no option other than Jesus is God and proved it by His resurrection for no man can resurrect himself, or for that matter, another man unless He is God. Amen.

The looks of Clement and Polycarp while originally considered inspired by Christians, are no longer considered so and have such have been removed from Christian Bibles. Their absence speaks more than the presence.

happens all the time, an enthusiastic Christian will come here and try to spread his beliefs. We on the other hand are Muslims. We believe that there is nothing worthy of worship except for the One who is worthy of all the worship, we worship the one whose very name Allah, used by both Christians, Jews and Muslims denotes the One to whom all worship belongs. We also believe in Allahu Samad, that Allah alone sustains all that exists and all that exists depends on Him.

Allah alone we worship, and of Allah alone we seek help. this worship we do according to the we taught to us by Mohammed Ibn Abullah, the Messenger of Allah.

let's take a look at your group hallucination:

Paul said he spent time with Peter (for 15 days) and James a few years after the cross, later on with John, and they met up again on several occasions, who imparted to Paul the early creed of the gospel of salvation through the atonement by the precious blood of Jesus Christ and His resurrection unto eternal life they themselves had seen well testified in 1 Cor. 15, Gal. 1 & 2 and agreed by even most critical scholars this was truly Paul's very own words and writings.

you claim in your writing here that Peter, James and John and parted their Christianity onto Paul. Paul in fact claims that this is a blatant lie. Paul claims that he has received his own revelation from God and that he preached a new gospel and that the gospel that he preached did not come from Paul, James or John. And yet, despite Paul's claims to the contrary you claim that he preached at the men before him preached. That is an hallucination and because the majority of Christians believe the same it is a massive worldwide hallucination.

Now I'm guessing that since you don't know that Paul claimed as much that you don't know what to find where Paul claims as much. Well, let me put you out of your misery while I quote from Paul these words, from 1 Galations:

11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

you may want to read that again but Paul claims, and i'll quote:

12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ

Peter, James and John being men, can not according to Paul be his source. At least, not according to Paul. and as you may or may not know the earliest of the New Testament writers is Paul!!

similarly Christians in their massive hallucination believe that Paul went to Jerusalem soon after his conversion to learn the gospel. This is the lie brought forth in Acts. Paul himself, though you seem to have missed it up to this point along with the rest of the Christians suffering from hallucination, states:

But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter[b] and stayed with him fifteen days

we see here that Paul states:

I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.

he did consult ANY man NOR did he go up to Jerusalem and YET the Christian world believes that he did!

TRULY AMAZING!

FURTHER, we read:

1Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain

Paul says:

I went in response to a revelation

Paul is now claiming Prophet-hood. he then states that he had to:

set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles

In other words he came to tell them the gospel that he was preaching, which he would not have to do if he was simply preaching the gospel that they taught him. In fact he says:

I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders

here we see that what ever Paul was preaching was so different from what he was taught that he felt compelled to only make it known to them but he was preaching in private.

We can conclude that if Paul is the first writer in the New Testament, and that if Paul was preaching a gospel that he specifically states he did not get from the apostles that all subsequent writings must be based on these new teachings of Paul would specifically did not come from Jesus in human form nor from his followers.

Now according to the Gospels as they exist today, Jesus himself warned:

New International Version (©1984)
For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.

New Living Translation (©2007)
for many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Messiah.' They will deceive many.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.

International Standard Version (©2008)
because many will come in my name and say, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many people.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Many will come using my name. They will say, 'I am the Messiah,' and they will deceive many people.

King James Bible
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

American King James Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

American Standard Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

Bible in Basic English
For people will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and a number will be turned from the true way through them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

Darby Bible Translation
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall mislead many.

English Revised Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

Webster's Bible Translation
For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and will deceive many.

Weymouth New Testament
"for many will come assuming my name and saying 'I am the Christ;' and they will mislead many.

World English Bible
For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will lead many astray.

Young's Literal Translation
for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,

here we see that Jesus himself warned us so simply how we would know that people coming after me trying to deceive us, their specific message would be that Jesus is the Christ! And seeing as how this is exactly what the vast majority of Christians preach we know that it is them who Jesus warned us about! But when Jesus himself was asked what the most important commandment was he did not mention himself, instead he said:

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these

THIS of course is Islam and THIS is what we preach!

you may of course continue preaching when Jesus said the deceivers would preach or you may join us in preaching by Jesus himself preached:

La Ilaha IlAllah!

peace



Good day!

[Rabi Mansur]

Ya, true faith has works that flow from it, but the works themselves don't give you initial salvation. We must undersand the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit not by our fleshly way of thinking.

Compare Romans 3:28 with James 2:24. James is a direct rebuttal and contradiction of Paul's writing to the Romans.

They both use the same Greek word for justification. They both use the same Greek word for faith. They both use the same Greek word for works. They both can't be right.

:wa:

[Parture]

no apostles see Jesus after his alleged death and resurrection

So are you saying that after Jesus' back was scourged down to the bone, carried the cross and handed it to Simon that after that moment Jesus was never seen again by anyone?

[Parture]

Japanese soldiers died in World War II believing they were dying for their Emperor

Right, so it doesn't mean they right. They could be wrong just like the disciples could be wrong claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. That leads to the question, where in history have we ever seen group hallucinations?

[Parture]

we do not have any contemporary testimony by either Jesus or any of his disciples

So the first churches that were set up were based on Jesus not having resurrected? And they left no record of this?

[nousername]

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[Parture]

you will be the first to claiming group hallucination

I don't believe in group hallucinations because there is no record of group hallucinations in history or according to the DM-4 manual of psychology.

So if the disciples didn't hallucinate multiple times in various groups, then how do you explain the first churches being built by them based on the resurrection of Jesus? Are you saying Peter, John and the rest of the 11 apostles lied and so did Paul, Jude and James, the brother of Jesus?

[Parture]

you claim in your writing here that Peter, James and John and parted their Christianity onto Paul. Paul in fact claims that this is a blatant lie.

Paul said, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand.... For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received" (1 Cor. 15.1,3).

Where did they and Paul receive this gospel of atonement and resurrection of Jesus from? Three years after Paul was saved, he said he spent 15 days with Peter and time with James, and again, years later to see them again and John.

What were Paul and Peter talking about for 15 days if not the resurrection of Jesus?

[Zafran]

Salaam

wow the missionery is trying to convert us with the old arguments.

So was Jesus pbuh killed on the cross or did he commit suicide? If he was God how can he be killed or even commit suicide - Does God die?

peace

[Parture]

Compare Romans 3:28 with James 2:24.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" (Rom. 3.28).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2.24).

What was James showing just before?

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God" (v.23).

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (.v22)

Works make faith perefect. Faith gets you in the door, but faith is perfected by works; and works can neither lose you salvation nor gain your salvation, for no man can save himself.

[Parture]

So was Jesus pbuh killed on the cross or did he commit suicide? If he was God how can he be killed or even commit suicide - Does God die?

peace

When you go to rest you don't actually die as in ceasing to exist. When evil was perpetrated upon Jesus He used this evil for good to die on the cross for the sins of the world to save anyone and reconcile us back to Him "whosoever believeth" (John 3.18).

What amazing grace!

[Zafran]

When you go to rest you don't actually die as in ceasing to exist. When evil was perpetrated upon Jesus He used this evil for good to die on the cross for the sins of the world to save anyone and reconcile us back to Him "whosoever believeth" (John 3.18).

What amazing grace!

so how did he die? was he killed or did he commit suicide?

[nousername]

it's against forum rules to proselytize any religion other than Islam on Islamic boards

[Zafran]

it's against forum rules to proselytize any religion other than Islam on Islamic boards

Salaam

There are adverts on this forum that break that rule as well.

peace

[Parture]

it's against forum rules to proselytize any religion other than Islam on Islamic boards

I thought I was just trying to discuss the data and think this through properly with you. Why don't you join me?

[nousername]

yes, but inshaAllah they are trying to get rid of them. and they should be reported if found.

[nousername]

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[Parture]

Why not deal with the topic instead trying to martyr Christians on the internet?

[nousername]

^^^ what are you talking about? I was talking about getting rid of Xtian adverts on the web. and Xtians are welceome if they don't try to spread their belief and turn Muslims against Islam. And sorry if you are banned eventually for breaking forum rules, you are in no way a martyr

[Parture]

But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.

[Woodrow]

it's against forum rules to proselytize any religion other than Islam on Islamic boards

It is,however I doubt if this can be seen as promoting Christianity. It looks like the thread is showing very good reasons to believe what many call Christianity is a lie.

The poster seems to be wrapped up in the concept that the 12 apostles would have disagreed with any false teachings. That is probably true. But it has not yet sunk into the thread starters head that what is called Christianity did not come about until long after the last apostle died. The Apostles never saw the mishash of errors that came about 300 years after them. I suspect the Apostles would be very appalled to see what is today being passed off as Christianity.

The thread starter is a very confused person and very misguided. Instead of condemning him we should make Du'a that Allaah(swt) leads him to the truth.

[Parture]

Shouldn't we ask the question, if the first churches got set up based on the non-resurrection of Jesus why is there no record of this? and thus no evidence.

[Woodrow]

But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.

Do you not believe God(swt) is powerful enough to forgive all sins with just a thought?

Do you not see how egotistical and demeaning it is to think mankind is so good and powerful we can require the sacrifice of God(swt) himself for us? Is this not the ultimate blasphemy and placing ourselves as being so powerful God(swt) needs to sacrifice for us?

This religion you call Christianity did not come into existence until at least 300 years after the last Christian died.

[Parture]

Do you not believe God(swt) is powerful enough to forgive all sins with just a thought?

Do you not see how egotistical and demeaning it is to think mankind is so good and powerful we can require the sacrifice of God(swt) himself for us? Is this not the ultimate blasphemy and placing ourselves as being so powerful God(swt) needs to sacrifice for us?

This religion you call Christianity did not come into existence until at least 300 years after the last Christian died.

Wouldn't the sacrifice have to be greater than that being sacrificed for? How can the sacrifice be sufficient if it is less than those sacrificed for?

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?

[Woodrow]

Wouldn't the sacrifice have to be greater than that being sacrificed for? How can the sacrifice be sufficient if it is less than those sacrificed for?

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?

That may not be the most egotistical, narcissistic comment I ever read, but it ranks to being very high on the list.

We humans combined are not worth one speck of dust in the infinite vastness of God(swt) one fleeting thought of God(swt) is more of a sacrifice that all of mankind combined is worth. Yet we know that God(swt) is all forgiving and he can forgive the most undeserving of sinners if he so desires to do so. We do not and can not earn his mercy. It is bestowed upon us by his will alone and not because we earn or deserve it.

The simple fact that God(swt) would will for us to be forgiven is a greater sacrifice that we are worthy of. No sacrifice is needed.

Especially not a false sacrifice that is very belittling to the nature of God(swt). If God(swt) requires a sacrifice or that is a blasphemous statement and saying God(swt) is not all-powerful.

A god who needs and requires sacrifice is a very pagan concept. Sounds like somebody with an ego problem attempting to control God(swt).

[Rabi Mansur]

But if Islam is wrong shouldn't we discuss it and be aware of it and know the reason why it is wrong? I find no record anywhere, like we have the Biblical texts, that the first churches by the first disciples weren't built on the resurrection of Jesus.

Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Are you aware of the huge debates that went on in the early years of the Christian church over whether Jesus PBUH resurrected? The Marcionites? There were rifts and schisms and disagreements over the resurrection, whether Jesus P had a body, the canon, which gospels were legitimate, etc., for the first few hundred years. There was no "Church" as you define it for about 300 years after the events took place.

:wa:

[Parture]

The simple fact that God(swt) would will for us to be forgiven is a greater sacrifice that we are worthy of. No sacrifice is needed.

If God(swt) requires a sacrifice or that is a blasphemous statement and saying God(swt) is not all-powerful

God wants to interact with us in person, not only by His Spirit indwelling us and our praying to the Father. Therefore, if we are going to receive Him as such, we have to accept who He is when He arrives. If men killed Him when He came in the likeness of flesh we should receive Him all the more because He takes this shedding of His blood to forgive our sins and become sin for us: to pay the penalty, the ransom, that must be paid. If God is going to reign in person for 1000 years in the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem then he will have a body when He is in His creation and reigning with His overcomer saints.

God requires payment for sin and since if we were to take it even though God forgives us, that payment is still Hell for eternity. The payment then He takes upon Himself and not just in some ethereal way, but literally for Himself in the flesh, so that whosoever believeth in Him and what He did for us on the cross shall be saved and received unto God.

Even if this was not enough to convince you, all you would need to rely on is the objective proof of resurrection in which we find none of the original apostles ever wrote anything against the resurrection. But we have many Christian sources purported to be those apostles, other Christian sources about those apostles, and non-Christian sources about those apostles.

For example, we have 45 ancient sources citing 129 facts about Jesus, and 17 of those sources are non-Christian. Of those 17, twelve speak of his death, 7 of his deity, and 7 of his resurrection. Of the total 45 texts, which is 4x more than Tiberius, 24 of them speak of his resurrection.

I am simply giving into the evidence and so I am justified by it. I know this is hard to understand, because man's flesh is strong and independent, but think of it this way. God will not blame you for abiding in the evidence. Let's say it turns out that Jesus is not God. Well God wouldn't blame you for that and judge you since the evidence points only to that fact and nowhere else. But if you are right that Jesus is God, then you receive eternal blessings and not go to Hell with the unsaved.

Praise the Lord!

[Parture]

Have you ever heard of the Gnostics? Are you aware of the huge debates that went on in the early years of the Christian church over whether Jesus PBUH resurrected? The Marcionites? There were rifts and schisms and disagreements over the resurrection, whether Jesus P had a body, the canon, which gospels were legitimate, etc., for the first few hundred years. There was no "Church" as you define it for about 300 years after the events took place.

:wa:

Those came in the 2nd and 3rd century, too far removed from the Biblical texts. Everyone is going to say all kinds of things, but we really only need be concerned with the primary texts.

[nousername]

I am simply giving into the evidence and so I am justified by it. I know this is hard to understand, because man's flesh is strong and independent, but think of it this way. God will not blame you for abiding in the evidence. Let's say it turns out that Jesus is not God. Well God wouldn't blame you for that and judge you since the evidence points only to that fact and nowhere else. But if you are right that Jesus is God, then you receive eternal blessings and not go to Hell with the unsaved.

Praise the Lord!

You're wrong about that. God is almighty and all powerful. he doesn't want his creation to associate partners with him, he is monotheistic.

[Parture]

You're wrong about that. God is almighty and all powerful. he doesn't want his creation to associate partners with him, he is monotheistic.

God didn't create to be an absentee landlord or a distant bystander. He wants fellowship and not just prayers to the Father and doing His will by the Holy Spirit in us who are saved, but He literally wants to walk amongst His creation. That is wonderful and glorious! Are you telling me your god doesn't want to or can't do this?

[nousername]

You just need to understand that in Islam, Muslims believe that God is JUST ONE, and has NO PARTNERS. PERIOD! Jesus pbuh, was a great and highly respected prophet NO MORE NO LESS. But he is dead and in heaven, so he can't help anyone. Only God can. God is Almighty, their is nothing He cannot do. He doesn't "need" to walk amongst his creation when He already knows each of us so intimately and knows exactly what's in our hearts and minds, and has known this before we were conceived. You make God seem weak and pathetic, that he would need to be murdered in order for us to be "saved". So tell me, Christians don't need to worry about hellfire no matter what they do BC someone already "spilled" their blood for them? Where is personal accountability then?

[Parture]

You just need to understand that in Islam, Muslims believe that God is JUST ONE, and has NO PARTNERS. PERIOD! Jesus pbuh, was a great and highly respected prophet NO MORE NO LESS. But he is dead and in heaven, so he can't help anyone. Only God can. God is Almighty, their is nothing He cannot do. He doesn't "need" to walk amongst his creation when He already knows each of us so intimately and knows exactly what's in our hearts and minds, and has known this before we were conceived. You make God seem weak and pathetic, that he would need to be murdered in order for us to be "saved". So tell me, Christians don't need to worry about hellfire no matter what they do BC someone already "spilled" their blood for them? Where is personal accountability then?

You said Jesus "he is dead and in heaven". I thought Muslims taught Jesus never died. By the way Christians believe nobody is in heaven yet. 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says those who are alive and left will not be taken up before those who are asleep, and Acts says not even David a man after God's own heart is in heaven yet.

It's one thing to know everything about us and another to have personal interaction with us in person, like when Jesus walked the earth, chose his disciples and told them he will give us only one sign, the sign of Jonah in the belly of whale for 3 days and nights, and he would raise his temple up on the third day. I am sure there were many who did not understand what he was talking about, but he talked in parables like this to get us to think, because frankly I think if Jesus always spelled it out for us in no uncertain terms, everyone would think he is wacko. Time is needed for it to sink it, for the cross to work by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The fact remains there is a payment that is necessary for sin. So it is in our world, so it is with God who makes this world. That's the meaning of the Jewish sacrifices as a temporary measure before Christ came to be our Isaac on the altar. There is either Hell as the payment or God takes the payment in our stead. If someone doesn't understand the nature of sin in his conscience, he will not appreciate this. He will need to read the Old Testament law to see that no man can keep the law proving we are all sinners, that sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell.

God seems greater that He would suffer for us (Is. 53), for there is no greater love than to suffer for a fellow man. How can God's morals be less than ours in this regard?

Let's say someone claims to be a Christian then goes rapes and murders and pillages. Do you really think they were a Christian to begin with? Of course not. The Holy Spirit restrains us from such acts, so it is not true at all, once saved we can do anything. God literally will work on our conscience to not do many things. And there are consequences for Christians. If a Christian though he can't lose eternal life and God is not fickle, only gives eternal life once, remains carnal and tied down to the world like a balloon, he will not escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10) nor return with Christ to reign (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20) during the 1000 years as kings and priests.

Man must realize he can't save himself by Islamic works, for God is infinitely greater than him; nothing of works can satisfy God's heart. The only thing that satisfies God's heart is His Son, for only His Son does His perfect will. And if we give our lives to Christ, He who is in heaven now comes to indwell us by the Holy Spirit and guide us in all things unto perfection to become pillars of the New City in the New Earth. Amen.

[aadil77]

]But he is dead and in heaven, so he can't help anyone

Err no sis he is not dead as he will descend back to earth near the end of time

[Parture]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

[aadil77]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

it doesn't matter whether you think he died or was raised at the time, the main thing is it shouldn't be a reason to start worshipping him

[Parture]

it doesn't matter whether you think he died or was raised at the time, the main thing is it shouldn't be a reason to start worshipping him

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

[جوري]

Let's start with the first one. I am not clear what prophecy you are talking about by stating "Genesis".

I think it should be clear as it is quoting from the book you hold dear, and it is obvious that it is filled with lies... go ahead read them one by one, work out why what is written and what has occurred are so at odds, and after you are done with that, come again and tell us, why believing that god descended to bed a 12 year old and father himself with her after enunciating himself in a different form, dam ning the earth for not bearing him fruit, forsaking himself after a nigh of prayer to himself is superior to the concept of Ganesh one of the Hindu gods.. I can't tell you how ridiculous christianity is from other people's perspective!

[aadil77]

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

I was talking about the people who lived in the period between prophet Isa and prophet muhammad, it would be irrelevent if they did/didn't have the knowledge of what happened to him as it wouldn't affect fundamental beliefs

I don't know anything about paul

[Parture]

What someone says a century or two or three later or more is irrelevant upon the primary sources for evidence since it is simply too far removed. We have 45 ancient sources within 150 years of Jesus' death citing 129 facts about him. And not one of them claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. 24 of them speak of his resurrection and even more of his death.

In light of the total amount of evidence nearest to the events we are discussing, God won't blame you for repenting and believing in Christ as your Lord God and Savior who was raised from the dead on the third day. But if Jesus is God and "all things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1.3), then you have everything to look forward to if you receive Him into your heart.

God loves you.

[جوري]

what 'facts' are those, you can't even get a historical account of Jesus from an independent history book, all we have is a book filled with fairy tales of whom others have argued against the concept of trinity from the very beginning..ever heard of Arius and Asthanthius? surely christians are some of the most ignorant folks we have encountered, ignorant of their own history and book and then come and argue 'truth' why not reconcile all those failed prophesies from your good back and then come later and argue 'facts'?

all the best

[Parture]

There are 17 non-Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus' death. 12 of them speak of his death, 7 of his deity and 7 of his resurrection.

[Woodrow]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

Probably because what was being taught was an error. The people who believed Jesus(PBUH) died were mistaken. The man who they thought was Jesus(PBUH) was not Jesus(PBUH). Also keep in mind the concept of the Trinity was not believed until after the Nicene council and there was even a big dispute over who should be considered part of the Trinity. The original teaching was it was Mary, Jesus and the Father. But the Greeks lost out and the Romans won with the concept of the "Holy Ghost". The Apostles never taught anything about a Trinity and not all Christians even some of today accepted that error.

This is one of the indications that the true message of Jesus was lost very early and it was not until the Qur'an that the error was corrected.

[Woodrow]

As long as you persist in believing the Bible is true you will stay lost and mistaken. Please provide some evidence the Bible is true and not the work and mistakes of Greek and Roman founders of a false belief.

Tell me who wrote the Book of John for starters. Even most Christian theologians are in agreement they do not know and John was just a name assigned to unknown authors.

For example: http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/john_gospel.htm

[syed_z]

It does matter because if he didn't die, then the Koran is false and not of God. If he did die and was resurrected then you have every reason to worship Him because only God could resurrect Himself.

Are you comfortable calling Paul a liar who said he spent 15 days with Peter who gave to him the gospel of salvation?

No paul was a liar because...

Any research in to history would make it clear, that There was a division between Trinitarians and Unitarians and the division was caused by none other than Pauline Theology!

Jesus if you look in to History taught the Old Testament Law, while Paul taught the Mysteries of Death and other theories, while completely forgetting and putting the Law aside, that is why Christians do not have a Law and they only talk about Love Love. The law which was being taught by the line of succession of Prophets who came before Jesus was being corrected whenever it was changed by corrupt Priesthood... and so one more time Jesus (a.s) came to correct it, but after Jesus's death, Paul focused more on Life of Jesus and his death!

“. . . except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel?” (Matthew 15:24)

He was sent to The children of Israel, because their Law was corrupt and he had come to correct their Law. Could you please answer why Paul did not mentions Law , is he was indeed a true Priest ? Why did Love replace law ?

[Woodrow]

There are 17 non-Christian sources within 150 years of Jesus' death. 12 of them speak of his death, 7 of his deity and 7 of his resurrection.

Every wonder why they did not not become Christian? Apparently they had reason not to believe that to be true. They were much closer to the events then you are yet they had sufficient reason not to believe them to be true. So 2000 years later with just an erroneous book as a guide, you have reason to believe that is true.

Sounds like you are a good candidate to sell a genuine artificial Rolex watch to. What other fallacies have you bought into in your life?

[Woodrow]

The question remains if it is true, why is there no record of anyone saying Jesus didn't die on the cross until centuries later?

That is a very nonsensical statement. You actually believe that because there is no record of Jesus(PBUH) not doing something is proof he did it? It may surprise you to discover there is no record saying Jesus(PBUH) did not eat baked Alaska for desert, so according to you that is proof he ate Baked Alaska for desert. There is also no record that says he did not watch the Flintstones on TV so I assume you accept that as proof he watched the Flintstones on TV.

[Predator]

Did jesus die on the cross.

Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

The Bible says

“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;” (Psalms 37:28)

Mary the mother of Jesus is a virtuous and saintly God fearing woman

Yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now you have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.

God can forgive sins, but He can't do it unrighteously by you refusing to accept the payment that is necessary to reconcile you back to Himself. If it is necessry in our world in everyday affairs, so why would God's standards be less than ours?

He can forgive it if you repent sincerely and that was always his standard

Ezekiel 18:21
"But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

The root of Christianity is the original sin upon which the crucifixion is justified and used for the benefit of Christians. If original sin is thrown away, then the crucifixion becomes dead.

None of these two man-made beliefs are true and original sin is nowhere to be found in the entire Bible.


Ezek 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
(Deuteronomy 24:16)
“The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”

The Bible is very clear that no person will be responsible for the sins of others. Each person is answerable for himself alone and cannot blame it on Adam and Eve.

This concept matches exactly the Qur’anic point on this issue.

(Quran 6:164)
“No person earns any (sin) except against himself (only), and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.”

[Dagless]

When Jesus went into Abraham's bosom, it's simply a place of rest. Jesus agreed with the Father and the Spirit before the world began that Jesus would be the one that would go down to the good side of Hades.

This in itself should tell you there is something amiss here. Why does Jesus have to agree with the Father and the Spirit? What if he didn't agree? How can they argue? How can you say there is one God when this quote indicates 3 separate entities. You cannot say they are 3 faces of the same God because then no agreement would be required. By giving each their own opinion/direction they are then different.

[Parture]

Probably because what was being taught was an error. The people who believed Jesus(PBUH) died were mistaken. The man who they thought was Jesus(PBUH) was not Jesus(PBUH).

You have a theory but you have no evidence for you theory, and all the evidence goes against your theory, so no reasonable person should believe it. If this was a court of law your case would be thrown out.

[syed_z]

@parture

well actually you for pretending to be blind should be thrown out of this Forum... read Post #74 or just leave... don't believe or believe up to you... don't waste peoples time here...

[nousername]

be gone, troll. No one is going to start worshiping a Prophet, we worship only the Creator. You missionaries are so annoying.

[Parture]

This in itself should tell you there is something amiss here. Why does Jesus have to agree with the Father and the Spirit? What if he didn't agree? How can they argue? How can you say there is one God when this quote indicates 3 separate entities. You cannot say they are 3 faces of the same God because then no agreement would be required. By giving each their own opinion/direction they are then different.

Jesus said, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17.5).

"Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death, yea, the death of the cross. Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven and [things] on earth and [things] under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2.5-11).

[Dagless]

Thanks for answering. Even preachers who come on here usually leave when asked these simple questions.

Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant

So he is all-powerful but not quite as all-powerful as something else. This sounds like a contradiction. 'God' has a clear definition. Either he is God or is not God, it's not a sliding scale.

and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient [even] unto death

You're basically saying God needed humbling and then became obedient to himself - and then died (wouldn't this contradict one of the main characteristics of a God) :|

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name

Here are the options:

1) He is God - if this is true he cannot die, need humbling, being obedient to anyone, or to be named by another as "higher than everyone".
2) He is not God - therefore why call him God. If there is another, more powerful than him, then perhaps demigod is a more fitting term?

Either way it should acknowledge the oneness of God and move you away from ascribing partners to Him.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

As far as i know, Christians believe Jesus is God May God Forbid

Jesus raised his hands in the air and prayed, he worshipped his Lord, and so basically what i dont understand is its your book and your supposed to read it, so has that not like bothered you? That Jesus prayed to God according to your faith God prays to God?

Btw Have you heard of the Gospel of Barnabas? i think you reject that gospel as many other Christians do, since its the oldest scripture.

As far as it concerns me Jesus was a Muslim and he was a servant of his Lord, the creation of his Lord, a servant who was able to do miracles through the authority of his Lord, and thats mentioned in your bible. SubhaanAllaah (Glory be to Allaah)

[Parture]

I believe Jesus is God because people don't willingly die for what they know to be a lie. Paul was martyred for his testimony and said he was with Peter for 15 days, who imparted these truths to him as did James, the brother of Jesus and John. Moreover, we have dozens of texts that speak of his death and resurrection in the first 150 years of his death, and not one text saying Jesus didn't die on the cross, so you shouldn't blame me for going with the evidence.

[Parture]

I was also thinking the martyrdom of the saints was that of Stephen who before he was martyred spoke clearly of the death and resurrection of Jesus. James the Greater was martyred too in Acts.

[Woodrow]

You have a theory but you have no evidence for you theory, and all the evidence goes against your theory, so no reasonable person should believe it. If this was a court of law your case would be thrown out.

Need you be reminded this is an Islamic forum. The only scripture accept as being the full unaltered truth is the Qur'an. If you are going to use any other source as proof. Prove first your source is correct and does not violate Islamic teachings.

I do try to be patient and do allow non-Muslims to speak what they believe, but the minute they start preaching in violation of the truth of the Qur'an I do become very impatient and demand solid verifiable proof before any statement is posted.

In plain English, if you can not prove to me what you say is true and verifiable, expect your erroneous teachings to evaporate from this forum.

You are not on a publically owned forum, this is an Islamic Forum, owned and paid for by Muslims. Freedom of speech ends when it violates the rules we have set up in the FAQ section. Obey the rules or find the exit door.

I do try to treat our non-Muslim members better than I have been treated on any Christian forum and I have been banned from a very large number of them.

[Parture]

Need you be reminded this is an Islamic forum. The only scripture accept as being the full unaltered truth is the Qur'an. If you are going to use any other source as proof. Prove first your source is correct and does not violate Islamic teachings.

I do try to be patient and do allow non-Muslims to speak what they believe, but the minute they start preaching in violation of the truth of the Qur'an I do become very impatient and demand solid verifiable proof before any statement is posted.

In plain English, if you can not prove to me what you say is true and verifiable, expect your erroneous teachings to evaporate from this forum.

You are not on a publically owned forum, this is an Islamic Forum, owned and paid for by Muslims. Freedom of speech ends when it violates the rules we have set up in the FAQ section. Obey the rules or find the exit door.

I do try to treat our non-Muslim members better than I have been treated on any Christian forum and I have been banned from a very large number of them.

But the Koran is wrong because it violates the proof that Jesus died on the cross. We have 45 ancient sources, most of which speak of Jesus' death, but not one of them speak his non-death within the first 150 years after the cross. It's a closed and shut case. You can't ask for better evidence than this and not only from the disciples themselves but those who personally knew the disciples report the same fact. Muslims reject atonement as do most people in the world because they don't want to be saved God's way.

All vBulletin forums are paid by someone and publically owned by someone.

[Rabi Mansur]

Moreover, we have dozens of texts that speak of his death and resurrection in the first 150 years of his death, and not one text saying Jesus didn't die on the cross, so you shouldn't blame me for going with the evidence.

Not one text? What about the gnostic gospels of Peter and Judas? I believe both of these gospels were written early and both said that he was not crucified.

Peace.

[Parture]

Not one text? What about the gnostic gospels of Peter and Judas? I believe both of these gospels were written early and both said that he was not crucified.

Peace.

The gnostic gospels are really late.

[Parture]

You must allow for commentary from Matthew, Luke, Mark, James, John, Peter, Jude, Paul, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, because they were in a better position to know than anyone since they were either the original eyewitness and friends of Jesus or knew those first Apostles personally.

It gets even better. Those who said they knew Clement of Rome and Polcarp report that Polycarp and Clement of Rome received the gospel from the original disciples.

You can't ask for a better proof than this.

Now if you want to reject the best proof you can ask for, then you can see why God says you are without excuse.

[Rabi Mansur]

Here is a little more to think about from a logical perspective. This is taken from another site:

From a logical perspective:


If you are a prophet of God, sent down by God, then your 'death' need not take place. God is All Powerful - He sent Jesus (peace be upon him) with the Great News for the Jews, by IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. So, God in His power can take the soul or body or both of a prophet BACK TO HIM at any time. This point negates the subsequent points made 'from a Christian perspective' that appear above.
The idea of 'atoning for sins' is baseless in monotheism. It is one that has been taken from polytheistic teachings. LOGICALLY speaking, God intends that man follow a righteous path. God does not give free rein to mankind to commit all kinds of sins, large or small, and then come back to Him, simply on the basis that 'Jesus loves you'. Who is Jesus above God anyway? What did Jesus create? Creation is with the Creator, God Almighty.

Now, consider that Saul of Tarsus was an enemy of Jesus and his teachings. Think about it for a while - an insidious, deceitful type, his 'enlightenment' on the road to Damascus, and his self proclaimed 'Sainthood' goes a long way to helping us understand just HOW MUCH THE TEACHINGS OF THE GREAT PROPHET JESUS were distorted by human, and unGodly, influence. Saul (later Paul) was a clever politician, who managed to show the way for the Roman polytheist power base to nip the ONE GOD teachings that Jesus' followers were calling people to, after Jesus had returned to His Lord. In this way, a 'New' Christianity came about, ratified at the Council of Nicea under the very polytheist Constantine. And this is the Christianity that we now know today, something that is very much tainted with Polytheism - festivals, weekdays, catecisms of 'Father, Son and Holy Ghost' - and ROMANISM.

JESUS WAS BY NO MEANS A DECEIVER, BUT PEOPLE LIKE PAUL, WITH HIS ULTERIOR MOTIVES, WERE.

God Almighty has absolutely no difficulty in tricking a few Roman guards, or the whole Jewish nation should HE so choose

:wa:

[Woodrow]

But the Koran is wrong because it violates the proof that Jesus died on the cross. We have 45 ancient sources, most of which speak of Jesus' death, but not one of them speak his non-death within the first 150 years after the cross. It's a closed and shut case. You can't ask for better evidence than this and not only from the disciples themselves but those who personally knew the disciples report the same fact. Muslims reject atonement as do most people in the world because they don't want to be saved God's way.

All vBulletin forums are paid by someone and publically owned by someone.

You are clerly without a doubt trying to promote Christianity on this forum. That is a clear violation of forum rules. I overlooked much, but I can no longer ignore your flagrant diregard for the forum rules.

Hasta La Vista Amigo

[aadil77]

Hasta La Vista Amigo

;D that was epic!

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum Brother Woodrow:

You should have let him stay. From what I read, he was doing more to prove the false doctrine followed by Christians today than promoting it. :)

[Ramadhan]

Salam Alaikum Brother Woodrow:

You should have let him stay. From what I read, he was doing more to prove the false doctrine followed by Christians today than promoting it. :)

... And I missed all the fun :(

[جوري]

excellent job as always br. Yusuf, I enjoy subscribing to your threads.. it will spare me a great deal of work later, as these bible thumpers crop often..