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Seeker1066
07-28-2010, 04:49 AM
Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?

I'm very interested in your comments on this.

Peace to all
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Woodrow
07-31-2010, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?


Peace to all

Peace,

I only quoted part in order to get directly to the issue.

You are correct. Us humans can not harm Allaah(swt) and He need only think it for us to be forgiven. There is no need for him to do anything for us to be forgiven, except him saying we are forgiven, It is his universe and he has full control over it, no matter what we humans think he needs to do,
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Seeker1066
07-31-2010, 10:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace,

I only quoted part in order to get directly to the issue.

You are correct. Us humans can not harm Allaah(swt) and He need only think it for us to be forgiven. There is no need for him to do anything for us to be forgiven, except him saying we are forgiven, It is his universe and he has full control over it, no matter what we humans think he needs to do,
Thanks for your help posting this and the reply. Justice is defined as "•the quality of being just or fair
•judgment involved in the determination of rights and the assignment of rewards and punishments
•judge: a public official authorized to decide questions brought before a court of justice".


According to this God is just when he determines the rewards or punishments. Therefore if God decides to not assign us blame that is Just. If he decides to assign us Punishment that is Just. To say that God would really like to forgive us but he cannot until he himself incarnates and dies is not by definition Justice. God says to man do this and I will reward you do this and I will punish you. This seems just and most fair. I can't but help feel that Christianity is limiting God by the claim of atonement. If you accept that man has hurt God and he will accept no remorse of man alone than man is hopeless. Why accept a hurt from one who cannot atone when you are God and need accept nothing that you do not will to accept? As many of you know I am seeking Truth. This is a point that I had not as yet considered.

Peace to all here
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Woodrow
07-31-2010, 11:04 PM
One error us humans make is we fail to see what arrogant and self-rightious creatures we are. We want god to be the perfect human. We do this by attributing him with human characteristics.

This in turn gives us a resemblance of being nearly the same as god. Man has often created a god in the image of man himself. Man does not seem to want to worship god. Man wants to worship an enhanced version of a man.

We can indeed be very arrogant creatures. Many of us seem to want a god we can lead around on a kite string. We punish god, by wishing him to die in punishment for giving us free will and then we want to become exempt from the consequences of free will.

Maybe arrogant is the wrong word, but it is the only one I can think of that seems to suit us when we decide how we want god to be.

I deliberatly used the uncapitalized god as it is apparant many do not want to worship a god who is God(swt)
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Trumble
08-01-2010, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
One error us humans make is we fail to see what arrogant and self-rightious creatures we are. We want god to be the perfect human. We do this by attributing him with human characteristics.

This in turn gives us a resemblance of being nearly the same as god. Man has often created a god in the image of man himself. Man does not seem to want to worship god. Man wants to worship an enhanced version of a man.
Indeed. Would you not also agree that it is this assignment of what are the best things about us to God in this anthropomorphic fashion that is at least partially responsible for that arrogance and self-righteousness? With the best bits alienated (a word that will clue in some that this is hardly an original thought!) only the worst bits are left to fester?
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Hiroshi
08-02-2010, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066
I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire.
I would like to include a thought here and I hope this isn't considered off-topic.

If a person is pre-destined to sin and consequently to suffer eternal, unbearable suffering in hellfire, wouldn't it have been more merciful on the part of God, to have never brought that person into existence in the first place?
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Woodrow
08-02-2010, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I would like to include a thought here and I hope this isn't considered off-topic.

If a person is pre-destined to sin and consequently to suffer eternal, unbearable suffering in hellfire, wouldn't it have been more merciful on the part of God, to have never brought that person into existence in the first place?
That would be true, if man was pre-destined to live a life of sin. But, all we do, is by our own free will. Life gives us rewards and punishments as the consequences of our own actions.

Full knowledge of all things past, present and future is not pre-destination. It is full knowledge.

We reap the fruits of our own plantings and harvests.
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Hiroshi
08-03-2010, 09:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
That would be true, if man was pre-destined to live a life of sin. But, all we do, is by our own free will. Life gives us rewards and punishments as the consequences of our own actions.

Full knowledge of all things past, present and future is not pre-destination. It is full knowledge.

We reap the fruits of our own plantings and harvests.
We could think of an illustration of a scientist predicting that there will be an earthquake, based on his knowledge and research. Let's say that his prediction comes true. Is he then to blame for the destruction that the earthquake has caused? Of course not. He has merely been a passive observer.

But in the case of God, as taught in the Qur'an, it seems that God is more than just a passive observer. God is presented as actively directing the will of man at all times, either to do good or to do bad. Surah 81:29 says: "ye shall not will except as Allah wills".
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Woodrow
08-03-2010, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
We could think of an illustration of a scientist predicting that there will be an earthquake, based on his knowledge and research. Let's say that his prediction comes true. Is he then to blame for the destruction that the earthquake has caused? Of course not. He has merely been a passive observer.

But in the case of God, as taught in the Qur'an, it seems that God is more than just a passive observer. God is presented as actively directing the will of man at all times, either to do good or to do bad. Surah 81:29 says: "ye shall not will except as Allah wills".
Let us go back to your scientist and imagine a perfect scientist who by his knowldge actually knows from his research an eathquake will occur. Think about that for a moment.

Now think in terms that Allaah(swt) is perfect and will make no error. He knows, he is not predicting. Yes all things are through the will of Allaah(swt) and our free will is the result of him willing us to have it. Allaah(swt) is the source of all power and with out his will we are powerless to do anything. Because he has willed us to have free will, does not mean we can not make our own choices. My grandson wants to go to the movies. I give him the $5 to go. Does that mean I made him go to the movies even though I made it possible and know he is going to the movies?

Actually the Christian concept of the all-knowing aspect of Allaah(swt) is nearly identical with our view. The Presbyterian is the closest, but they often get accused of believing man has no free will.
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Predator
08-03-2010, 04:04 PM
If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?
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Hiroshi
08-04-2010, 02:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Airforce
If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?
In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?
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Pygoscelis
08-04-2010, 04:48 PM
I have a number of issues with the old testament bible, as I'm sure most moral minded people do. Things like dashing children against rocks, stoning disobedient children to death, stoning rape victims, genocides done at God's command etc. Most modern Christians in defence to that will tell me that there is a new covenant, under gentle Jesus, meek and mild. They are then often surprised to hear that I have even stronger objections to the new testament bible.

The introduction of a savior required a central role for the concept of hell. And i say it is even more immoral. Consider the following:

1. To need a savior you need something to be saved from. You have to believe that we all are deserving of eternal torment and can not redeem ourselves on our own. I find that a very disturbing mindset.

2. If somebody really believes the above, that they have done something so bad they deserve eternal torment as punishment, they should take that punishment. Not allow some innocent third party to suffer in their place. Allowing YOUR just punishment to be put off on somebody else (even if they are a volunteer) is a complete abdication of personal responsibility. We would not let volunteers take the place of people on death row and set mass murderers free.

3. To redeem sin God demands blood, pain, and suffering. Why not good deeds? Why not demand that people do service towards helping others to make up for their wrongs? What does torturing wrongdoers accomplish? It is just a sadistic sort of cosmic vengeance. It isn't like reformation is a possibility, these people are to be tortured forever (no lesson can be learned or ways reformed after one is in hellfire).

4. This is all as much for disbelief in God (or the right God) and not following the proper worship customs as it is for actual immoral behaviour, and it is the same level of punishment for all. The guy who says the wrong prayer to the wrong concept of God gets the same punishment as Hitler. That is just crazy.
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Insaanah
08-04-2010, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Airforce
If a person has a disease , he should take the injection and no other person can take it on his behalf.

Similarly why should Jesus feel the pain on the cross , instead of sinners .

What kind of mercy and justice is that, God could not punish the evil doers and kills his own son ?
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?
That was simple a test of obedience from Allah. Nobody was going to have to die for anybody's sins.

Peace.
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Hiroshi
08-04-2010, 06:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us go back to your scientist and imagine a perfect scientist who by his knowldge actually knows from his research an eathquake will occur. Think about that for a moment.

Now think in terms that Allaah(swt) is perfect and will make no error. He knows, he is not predicting. Yes all things are through the will of Allaah(swt) and our free will is the result of him willing us to have it. Allaah(swt) is the source of all power and with out his will we are powerless to do anything. Because he has willed us to have free will, does not mean we can not make our own choices. My grandson wants to go to the movies. I give him the $5 to go. Does that mean I made him go to the movies even though I made it possible and know he is going to the movies?

Actually the Christian concept of the all-knowing aspect of Allaah(swt) is nearly identical with our view. The Presbyterian is the closest, but they often get accused of believing man has no free will.
What you say makes sense and places moral responsibility squarely on the shoulders of man. This seems most logical. However, I have read a number of hadiths that appear to paint a different picture:

Muslim bin Yasar said that when 'Umar bin al-Khattab was questioned about the verse, "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam ..." [Qur`an 7:172], he replied that he had heard God's messenger say when he was questioned about it, "Verily God created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do.' Afterwards He rubbed his back with His left hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Fire and with the actions of the inmates of Fire which they will do.'" Someone asked the Prophet, "What are then deeds for?" The Prophet replied, "When God creates a servant for Paradise he makes him do deeds of the people of Paradise until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Paradise and He then puts him in Paradise on account of them (i.e. the deeds). And when God creates a servant for Fire he makes him do deeds of the people of Fire until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Fire and He then puts him in Fire on account of them."


Ahmad ibn Hambal records the following hadith:

(Abu Nadra told that the Prophet was heard by a companion called Abu Abd Allah as saying that) God took a handful in His right hand and another in His left saying, "This (i.e., the handful in His right hand) is for this (i.e., Paradise), and that (i.e., the handful in His left hand) is for that (i.e., Hell), and I do not care." (Ahmad)


Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)


Suraqa bin Malik came to the Prophet and said, "O Messenger of God! Explain our religion for us (in this matter): Suppose we are born now. For what do we do deeds? For that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed? Or, for that which we meet in the future (without being ordained)?" The Prophet replied, "But no, for that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed." ... (Muslim on the authority of Jabir)


According to a hadith found both in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said that during pregnancy:

God sends an angel and orders him to write four things: his provision, his age, and whether he will be wretched (shaqiyy) or blessed (sa'id). Then the spirit (ruh) is breathed into him. And by God, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it. (Bukhari on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud; Muslim also reports something parallel)
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Hiroshi
08-04-2010, 07:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan



That was simple a test of obedience from Allah. Nobody was going to have to die for anybody's sins.

Peace.
But as we all know, this same pattern or ritual was followed by Abraham's descendants for many centuries when, under the law of Moses, animal sacrifices were offered to God for forgiveness of sins. It was the blood, representing the life of the sacrificed animal, that made atonement for sins (Leviticus 17:11). The animal died in the place of the one offering the sacrifice.
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Danah
08-04-2010, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
In Surah 37:107, Abraham's son is ransomed by an animal that is sacrificed in his place. Was that something wrong?
Instead of jumping to the conclusion like that, read the full story, verses from 102 till you reach 107.


And when (his son) was old enough to walk with him, (Abraham) said: O my dear son, I have seen in a dream that I must sacrifice thee. So look, what thinkest thou? He said: O my father! Do that which thou art commanded. Allah willing, thou shalt find me of the steadfast. (102) Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face, (103) We called unto him: O Abraham! (104) Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good. (105) Lo! that verily was a clear test. (106) Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim. (107)
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Insaanah
08-04-2010, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But as we all know, this same pattern or ritual was followed by Abraham's descendants for many centuries
Our concern here is not about what the people after Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) did, but about him himself and what Allah commanded him to do. At no stage does Allah say to him, "I want you to sacrifice your son because of your or his sins". Abraham and Ismail (peace be upon them both) were amongst the most upright and noble of humanity.

Allah tells us Himself that the sacrifice that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was ordered to do was nothing more than a test, as sister Danah has shown from the Qur'an.

Peace.
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Pygoscelis
08-04-2010, 07:50 PM
Best I can tell the Abe & Isaac story is a loyalty test. Not unlike a mobster handing a new recruit a gun and telling him to shoot his brother (not knowing the gun isn't loaded).
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Insaanah
08-04-2010, 08:06 PM
^ I find your comparison of God and His noble Prophets with sinful mobsters, repulsive.

Abraham (peace be upon him) was not a "new" Prophet at the time of this incident, so in no way does your "example" hold any validity.

Peace.
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Pygoscelis
08-04-2010, 10:59 PM
It is a clash of obedience and morality is my point. A moral ending to the story would have been Abraham refusing to kill Isaac, saying something like "I will not kill my innocent son Lord, for you have taught me it is wrong to kill" and God saying he passed the test.

This idea of confusing obedience for morality, or of them clashing and obedience trumping is a common theme across abrahamic dogma. It comes up again and again. It is one of the primary problems I have with these faiths.
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Zafran
08-05-2010, 12:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is a clash of obedience and morality is my point. A moral ending to the story would have been Abraham refusing to kill Isaac, saying something like "I will not kill my innocent son Lord, for you have taught me it is wrong to kill" and God saying he passed the test.

This idea of confusing obedience for morality, or of them clashing and obedience trumping is a common theme across abrahamic dogma. It comes up again and again. It is one of the primary problems I have with these faiths.
How is that a moral ending that you propose?? You seem to think Morality is clear cut. You also seem to get mixed up with the stories. How do you define innocent?
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Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

Our concern here is not about what the people after Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) did, but about him himself and what Allah commanded him to do. At no stage does Allah say to him, "I want you to sacrifice your son because of your or his sins". Abraham and Ismail (peace be upon them both) were amongst the most upright and noble of humanity.

Allah tells us Himself that the sacrifice that Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was ordered to do was nothing more than a test, as sister Danah has shown from the Qur'an.

Peace.
If Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son for a noble purpose, what is wrong with thinking that God would do the same?
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Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us go back to your scientist and imagine a perfect scientist who by his knowldge actually knows from his research an eathquake will occur. Think about that for a moment.

Now think in terms that Allaah(swt) is perfect and will make no error. He knows, he is not predicting. Yes all things are through the will of Allaah(swt) and our free will is the result of him willing us to have it. Allaah(swt) is the source of all power and with out his will we are powerless to do anything. Because he has willed us to have free will, does not mean we can not make our own choices. My grandson wants to go to the movies. I give him the $5 to go. Does that mean I made him go to the movies even though I made it possible and know he is going to the movies?

Actually the Christian concept of the all-knowing aspect of Allaah(swt) is nearly identical with our view. The Presbyterian is the closest, but they often get accused of believing man has no free will.
Btw, the passages that I cited in my post #14 were taken from here:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/I...terminism2.htm

Am I allowed to include links in my posts?
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Insaanah
08-05-2010, 09:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
If Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son for a noble purpose, what is wrong with thinking that God would do the same?
That was a test. So what you mean here is what is wrong with thinking that somebody should be testing God. (God forbid)

Regardless of whether you meant that, the very notion that God should need to make a sacrifice for any reason, suggests that God is no longer All Powerful, and limits His power. The idea that He would need to make a sacrifice to prove something or do something, and that He could not prove that point or do the thing in question without it, means that that god is no longer All-Powerful. It is denigrating to God, Glorified and Exalted be He.

Peace.
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Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
That was a test. So what you mean here is what is wrong with thinking that somebody should be testing God. (God forbid)

Regardless of whether you meant that, the very notion that God should need to make a sacrifice for any reason, suggests that God is no longer All Powerful, and limits His power. The idea that He would need to make a sacrifice to prove something or do something, and that He could not prove that point or do the thing in question without it, means that that god is no longer All-Powerful. It is denigrating to God, Glorified and Exalted be He.

Peace.
We all live by principles, standards of right and wrong, and a sense of justice. With God there is perfect justice. God's perfect law requires that the one that sins should die. Now a murderer must pay for the life that he has taken with his own life (Surah 5:45), but the principle "a life for a life" can also work another way. Someone who had no sin, Jesus, could die for the sins of others.

God is under no obligation to act with justice, but God chooses to do so because God is righteous.
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Insaanah
08-05-2010, 10:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
We all live by principles, standards of right and wrong, and a sense of justice.
We try our best, as humans to do this. Our standards of justice come from God.

And Allah tells us regarding humans: "...He gets reward for that (good) which he has earned, and he is punished for that (evil) which he has earned..." (2:286, part).

In other words, we are responsible for our own deeds and the consequences of them, nobody else is.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
With God there is perfect justice.
I agree.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God's perfect law requires that the one that sins should die.
Justice requires that one should be rewarded for ones good deeds, and punished for ones evil deeds, unless God, out of His Mercy, decides to forgive them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Now a murderer must pay for the life that he has taken with his own life (Surah 5:45), but the principle "a life for a life" can also work another way.
You mean that some innocent person who had nothing to do with it should be killed instead of the murderer? Very just, that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Someone who had no sin, Jesus, could die for the sins of others.
This is a complete contradiction to this sentence:

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
With God there is perfect justice.
Not only is the notion that one person died for the sins of others who he didn't even know, never met, had no idea what sins they've done and had nothing to do with them unjust and is ascribing injustice to God, but it is also limiting to the Power of God to suggest that He cannot forgive mankind without making some sort of sacrifice. That suggests that God's forgiving powers are limited, and that He is not All Powerful.

Every way you look at it, this notion ascribes injustice to God and denigrates his Power.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God is under no obligation to act with justice, but God chooses to do so
So then you will agree that God did not make one person lose his life for the sins of the rest of humanity.

Peace.
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Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Not only is the notion that one person died for the sins of others who he didn't even know, never met, had no idea what sins they've done and had nothing to do with them unjust and is ascribing injustice to God, but it is also limiting to the Power of God to suggest that He cannot forgive mankind without making some sort of sacrifice. That suggests that God's forgiving powers are limited, and that He is not All Powerful.

Every way you look at it, this notion ascribes injustice to God and denigrates his Power.
But why then did God demand animal sacrifices? And in relation to this also, why is it forbidden to eat blood? (Surah 2:173)
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aadil77
08-05-2010, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But why then did God demand animal sacrifices? And in relation to this also, why is it forbidden to eat blood? (Surah 2:173)
The point of animal sacrifice in islam has nothing to do with the forgiving of sins, its only done to commemorate the prophet Ibrahim and Ismail and then distribute the meat to the poor

Drinking blood is haram because its impure:

“Say (O Muhammad): I find not in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be Maytah (a dead animal) or blood poured forth (by slaughtering or the like), or the flesh of swine (pork); for that surely, is impure or impious (unlawful) meat (of an animal) which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allaah (or has been slaughtered for idols, or on which Allaah’s Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But whosoever is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits; (for him) certainly, your Lord is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-An’aam 6:145]
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Insaanah
08-05-2010, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But why then did God demand animal sacrifices?
The companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked him, “O Messenger of Allah, what is the sacrifice?” He said: "It is the way of your fore father Ibrahim." They asked: what (reward) is for us therein?" He replied: "There is a reward for every hair." (Ahmed, Ibn Majah)

This act of sacrifice is to commemorate the unparallelled sacrifice offered by Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him). When he, in pursuance to the command of Allah conveyed to him in a dream, prepared himself to slaughter his beloved son Ismail (peace be upon him), but Allah Almighty after testing him of his submission, sent down a ram and saved his son from the fate of slaughter. It is from that time onwards that the sacrifice of an animal has been performed by every well to do Muslim.

It is a demonstration of total submission to Allah and of complete obedience to Allah’s will or command. And shows that the Muslim would not hesitate even for a moment once he receives an absolute command from his Creator to surrender before it, to obey it willingly, even if it be at the price of his life and possessions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
And in relation to this also, why is it forbidden to eat blood? (Surah 2:173)
The simple answer is that Allah decreed it forbidden, and that is why it is forbidden to us. Also, blood can carry many diseases, and eating and drinking blood can be harmful.

And Allah knows best.

Peace.
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Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
The simple answer is that Allah decreed it forbidden, and that is why it is forbidden to us. Also, blood can carry many diseases, and eating and drinking blood can be harmful.

And Allah knows best.

Peace.
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Drinking blood is haram because its impure:

“Say (O Muhammad): I find not in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be Maytah (a dead animal) or blood poured forth (by slaughtering or the like), or the flesh of swine (pork); for that surely, is impure or impious (unlawful) meat (of an animal) which is slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allaah (or has been slaughtered for idols, or on which Allaah’s Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering). But whosoever is forced by necessity without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits; (for him) certainly, your Lord is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful” [al-An’aam 6:145]
Both of you have answered from an Islamic perspective I guess. But according to the Torah, eating blood is not forbidden because blood is impure or a health risk. It is forbidden because blood is sacred to God, representing life.

Leviticus 17:10-12 prescribes the death penalty for anyone that eats blood. Would a Muslim be put to death for eating pork?

10 "'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood."
Reply

Woodrow
08-05-2010, 02:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
What you say makes sense and places moral responsibility squarely on the shoulders of man. This seems most logical. However, I have read a number of hadiths that appear to paint a different picture:

Muslim bin Yasar said that when 'Umar bin al-Khattab was questioned about the verse, "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam ..." [Qur`an 7:172], he replied that he had heard God's messenger say when he was questioned about it, "Verily God created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do.' Afterwards He rubbed his back with His left hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Fire and with the actions of the inmates of Fire which they will do.'" Someone asked the Prophet, "What are then deeds for?" The Prophet replied, "When God creates a servant for Paradise he makes him do deeds of the people of Paradise until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Paradise and He then puts him in Paradise on account of them (i.e. the deeds). And when God creates a servant for Fire he makes him do deeds of the people of Fire until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Fire and He then puts him in Fire on account of them."


Ahmad ibn Hambal records the following hadith:

(Abu Nadra told that the Prophet was heard by a companion called Abu Abd Allah as saying that) God took a handful in His right hand and another in His left saying, "This (i.e., the handful in His right hand) is for this (i.e., Paradise), and that (i.e., the handful in His left hand) is for that (i.e., Hell), and I do not care." (Ahmad)


Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)


Suraqa bin Malik came to the Prophet and said, "O Messenger of God! Explain our religion for us (in this matter): Suppose we are born now. For what do we do deeds? For that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed? Or, for that which we meet in the future (without being ordained)?" The Prophet replied, "But no, for that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed." ... (Muslim on the authority of Jabir)


According to a hadith found both in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said that during pregnancy:

God sends an angel and orders him to write four things: his provision, his age, and whether he will be wretched (shaqiyy) or blessed (sa'id). Then the spirit (ruh) is breathed into him. And by God, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it. (Bukhari on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud; Muslim also reports something parallel)
I am still very much a baby in the Study of the Ahadith. Perhaps a member more knowledgeable will see this and give their view of the Ahadith you quoted.
Reply

Insaanah
08-05-2010, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Both of you have answered from an Islamic perspective I guess. But according to the Torah, eating blood is not forbidden because blood is impure or a health risk. It is forbidden because blood is sacred to God, representing life.

10 "'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, "None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood."
No such reason has been given in Islam, neither are there any such connotations for blood in Islam.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Leviticus 17:10-12 prescribes the death penalty for anyone that eats blood. Would a Muslim be put to death for eating pork?
No. He/She would have to repent sincerely and resolve not to do it again.

Peace.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-05-2010, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am still very much a baby in the Study of the Ahadith. Perhaps a member more knowledgeable will see this and give their view of the Ahadith you quoted.
Many thanks Woodrow. I realize that hadith is a vast and sometimes difficult area of study. If you get a chance to read that article "Islam and Determinism" by Dr. Ahmad Shafaat I would like to know your thoughts about it:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/I...terminism2.htm
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-05-2010, 03:23 PM
I find it refreshing that many of the same points I made in post #12 http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1357023 are being made now again by the muslims here.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-06-2010, 05:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Not only is the notion that one person died for the sins of others who he didn't even know, never met, had no idea what sins they've done and had nothing to do with them unjust and is ascribing injustice to God, but it is also limiting to the Power of God to suggest that He cannot forgive mankind without making some sort of sacrifice.
Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6668 says: "Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians."

Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6666 says: "Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire."

And Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6665 says: "Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire."

Quoted from:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...m/037.smt.html



You say that the provision of the ransom sacrifice is unjust and therefore something that God would never do. But in these passages we see Jews and Christians being punished instead of Muslims with "as heavy sins as a mountain" in order to "rescue" them from Hell-Fire.

Peace.
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-06-2010, 01:59 PM
Hiroshi, "They do it too!" is no excuse for evil.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-06-2010, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Hiroshi, "They do it too!" is no excuse for evil.
It isn't as simple as that. God had promised Abraham that his descendants would become a great nation through Isaac. Abraham had to show faith in that promise, being confident that, even if his son died, God would restore his son to life (Hebrews 11:19).
Reply

Insaanah
08-06-2010, 06:01 PM
Greetings Hiroshi,

With regards to the hadeeth you posted, that to you, don't place moral responsibility squarely on the shoulders of man:

Allah gave us free will. He, in His infinite knowledge of the past, present and future, knows exactly what will happen and who will make what choice. All of that He has written down. So it doesn't mean we have no choice, we have free choice, but Allah with His All Encompassing Infinite Knowledge, knows all the choices we will make til the end of time. The people He created for Hell are those people whom He knows beforehand will choose to do deeds of the people of hell. It is not the case that they have no choice; their choice is completely free, but Allah knows beforehand what choice will be made.

The following will also explain:

"In a technical sense, qadar means, "something of which there was prior knowledge, one of the things which was written by the Pen when it wrote down everything that was going to happen for the rest of eternity...." ('Aqeedat as-Safaareeni, 1/348, Cited in Umar Al Ashqar, Divine Will and Predestination in the Light of Quran and Sunnah, p 33)

Ibn Hajar said in his definition: "What is meant is that Allah knows how things will be and when they will happen, before He initiates them. Then He creates that which He already knows will happen." (Fath al-Baari, 1/118, Cited in Umar Al Ashqar, Divine Will and Predestination in the Light of Quran and Sunnah, p 33)

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6668 says: "Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians."

Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6666 says: "Abu Burda reported on the authority of his father that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: No Muslim would die but Allah would admit in his stead a Jew or a Christian in Hell-Fire."

And Sahih Muslim Book 37, Number 6665 says: "Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire."

Quoted from:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...m/037.smt.html

You say that the provision of the ransom sacrifice is unjust and therefore something that God would never do. But in these passages we see Jews and Christians being punished instead of Muslims with "as heavy sins as a mountain" in order to "rescue" them from Hell-Fire.
Ah yes, I saw these same hadeeths being quoted in the answering-islam website.

We know that those righteous Christian and Jewish folk of old, who followed the teachings of the Messengers of God sent to them before Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and worshipped Allah alone without ascribing to Him any associates in His Divinity, will go to Paradise.

We also know, that sinful Muslims whose bad deeds outweigh their good deeds, will be thrown into hell, and will stay there for a period commensurate with their sins, and receive punishment that is commensurate with their sins. After that, they will be removed from Hell and admitted into Paradise.

We also know that Allah will forgive the sins of some Muslims, whom He will, without entry into hell.

We also know that nobody will go to hell whose deeds and beliefs with regards to Allah did not justify them to be there.

There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as heavy sins as a mountain, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians."
Notice that it first mentions that Allah will forgive them. No sacrifice of any sort has been mentioned. After the Muslim in question has been forgiven (out of Allah's Divine Mercy), if the Muslim was next in line to Hell, and Allah forgave him out of His Mercy, then the next Jew or Christian will go in (not the righteous of old).

The Jews and Christians mentioned in the hadeeths are not the righteous folk of old, but those who disobeyed Allah and the Prophets sent to them. They are people who, whatever happens then, are going to hell because of their own deeds. They are not innocent lambs carrying the burdens of others sins. There is no mention of Allah making any kind of sacrifice. All it says is that they go to hell. If the Muslim was one who Allah didn't throw in hell (many Muslims with sins will go into hell) and decided to forgive him out of His Divine Mercy, then a disobedient Jew or Christian (who has done deeds of the people of hellfire) will be thrown in next, in his place. The forgiveness happened due to Allah's Mercy, and someone who did deeds of the people of the hellfire, will go into hell. The forgiveness did not happen because of the throwing into hell; the forgiveness is out of Allah's Mercy, as He forgives whom He wills. The throwing into hell of the disobedient person happened because that was earnt by the person's deeds.

So they are not being unduly punished instead of Muslims. They are receiving the punishment they would always have received. There is no sacrifice of any sort being made. Allah forgives whom He Wills through His Divine Mercy, and not by unjustly making an innocent person carry the burden of another.

Peace.
Reply

syed_z
08-06-2010, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
What you say makes sense and places moral responsibility squarely on the shoulders of man. This seems most logical. However, I have read a number of hadiths that appear to paint a different picture:

Muslim bin Yasar said that when 'Umar bin al-Khattab was questioned about the verse, "When your Lord took their offspring from the backs of the children of Adam ..." [Qur`an 7:172], he replied that he had heard God's messenger say when he was questioned about it, "Verily God created Adam and then rubbed his back with His right hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Paradise and with the actions of the inmates of Paradise which they will do.' Afterwards He rubbed his back with His left hand and took out a progeny from him and said: 'I created these for Fire and with the actions of the inmates of Fire which they will do.'" Someone asked the Prophet, "What are then deeds for?" The Prophet replied, "When God creates a servant for Paradise he makes him do deeds of the people of Paradise until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Paradise and He then puts him in Paradise on account of them (i.e. the deeds). And when God creates a servant for Fire he makes him do deeds of the people of Fire until he dies doing the deeds of the people of Fire and He then puts him in Fire on account of them."


Ahmad ibn Hambal records the following hadith:

(Abu Nadra told that the Prophet was heard by a companion called Abu Abd Allah as saying that) God took a handful in His right hand and another in His left saying, "This (i.e., the handful in His right hand) is for this (i.e., Paradise), and that (i.e., the handful in His left hand) is for that (i.e., Hell), and I do not care." (Ahmad)


Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)


Suraqa bin Malik came to the Prophet and said, "O Messenger of God! Explain our religion for us (in this matter): Suppose we are born now. For what do we do deeds? For that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed? Or, for that which we meet in the future (without being ordained)?" The Prophet replied, "But no, for that with which the pen has dried (after writing maqadir) and the fates are sealed." ... (Muslim on the authority of Jabir)


According to a hadith found both in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said that during pregnancy:

God sends an angel and orders him to write four things: his provision, his age, and whether he will be wretched (shaqiyy) or blessed (sa'id). Then the spirit (ruh) is breathed into him. And by God, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it. (Bukhari on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud; Muslim also reports something parallel)



you have not read them together with this Surah ... it is called Surah Al Layl...Chapter of The Night... these Hadith and Traditions mentioned, are to be read in conjunction with this Surah of the Glorious Quran.... This is Quoted and explained all in the Commentary of Great Classical Commentator of the Quran, Imam Ismail Ibn Kathir (r.a)....



Al-Bukhari recorded from `Ali bin Abi Talib that they (the Companions) were with the Messenger of Allah at the cemetery of Baqi` Al-Gharqad for a funeral, when the Prophet (saw) said, "There is none among you except that his place has already been written, a seat in Paradise and a seat in the Hellfire." They said, "O Messenger of Allah! Should we depend on this'' He replied, "Perform deeds for everyone will have the deeds of what he was created for (Paradise or Hell) made easy for him." Then he recited the Ayah of Surah Al Layl Chapter 92.....


92:5. As for him who gives (to others) and is Conscious of God
92:6. And believes in Al-Husna
(ultimate good i.e moral values as given by Allah).
92:7. We will make smooth for him the path of ease.
(i.e towards ease of mind and peace of the spirit)
92:8.But he who is greedy and thinks himself self-sufficient
(even though he is a creation himself)
92:9. And denies Al-Husna. (i.e calls ultimate good a lie)
92:10. We will make smooth for him the path to evil.


So The Messenger of Allah (saw) used to recite the above Verses when he mentioned about every individual Muslim's destiny, and so he recited the above Verses to make it clear, that there is no such thing as Pre Destination in everything in Islam, rather our destiny will be determined by our will to do good or bad deeds. For if everything was pre determined for us, i.e Our Paradise and Hell regardless of is we do good or bad, then why Would Allah (swt) say this in the Quran ?


(3:108)... Allah (swt) Wills no wrong to His Creation."



So this brings us to the Conclusion that Mankind , male /female all have Free Will and depending on the path they choose, is what will be made easy for them. So if they choose to be ungrateful and deny whatever Blessings Allah has given them and do all that is wrong, and continue with the Falsehood then, Allah will make it easy for them the path they chose themselves, because of their freedom of choice. As for him/her to is Conscious of God and does whatever God says, then the path to paradise will be made easy for him....as Allah (Swt) says in Quran in Chapter of the Man...


(76:02)........We made him a being endowed with hearing and sight.
(76:03) Verily We have shown him the way; (and it rests with him to prove himself) either grateful or ungrateful.



...hearing and sight....means that God has not only endowed man with reason and the ability to discern between right and wrong, but has also.....Shown him the way.... i.e actively guided mankind, throughout the History of mankind, by means of revelations through Prophets.


So if a person chooses to remain ignorant even though he has the ability to reason and find out the Truth (i.e Islam, Submission to the Will of God), then Allah (swt) is not in need of his creatures He is Self Sufficient, and so He would make easy for him the path of rejection which leads towards the Fire. And if person accepts the Truth, then he does it for his own good, and Allah (swt) would make easy for him the path towards righteousness which leads towards Paradise.





According to a hadith found both in Bukhari and Muslim, the Prophet said that during pregnancy:

God sends an angel and orders him to write four things: his provision, his age, and whether he will be wretched (shaqiyy) or blessed (sa'id). Then the spirit (ruh) is breathed into him. And by God, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it. (Bukhari on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud; Muslim also reports something parallel)
This Tradition answers your concern....

Narrated Anas The Prophet (saw) said, "When a human being is laid in his grave and his companions return and he even hears their foot steps, two angels come to him and make him sit and ask him: What did you use to say about this man, Muhammad ? He will say: I testify that he is Allah's slave and His Apostle. Then it will be said to him, 'Look at your place in the Hell-Fire. Allah has given you a place in Paradise instead of it.' The Prophet added, "The dead person will see both his places. But a non-believer or a hypocrite will say to the angels, 'I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say! It will be said to him, 'Neither did you know nor did you take the guidance (by reciting the Quran).' Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by whatever approaches him except human beings and jinns." (Bukhari Hadith #422)


We can see from the Hadith which i mentioned, that every persons place in Fire and Paradise, both is written for him by the Angels, he may either work towards good, with his free will and attain the place of Paradise, which will omit his place in Fire, or he may continue disbeliving and do everything contrary to God's teachings, and his place in Paradise will change to the place of Fire, as Prophet said "The Dead person will see both his places."


About your concern where it says....



a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which God has ordered the angel to write) proceeds, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing proceeds and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it.
What this means is that, that it is the overriding concern of a believer that he or she should die in a state of Iman (Belief), for otherwise a life time of good deeds may come to nothing. Therefore protecting our Faith is a life long struggle. There is a Hadith (Traditions) which sheds light on the importance of this matter.

Prophet Muhammad (Saw) said "None of you should say ' Oh Allah instruct me in my evidence at the time of death', as the non-believer is also instructed in his evidence. Rather you should say, 'Oh Allah! Instruct me in the evidence of faith at the time of death."


So basically a life long time of good deeds have the chances of being lost, if a Muslim or A Believer disobeys God before the time of his/her death or becomes a Disbeliever or becomes a Sinner, which might make him/her end up in the Fire rather than going to Paradise, and his assigned seat in Paradise would change and he would be given one in the Fire, as each and every Person has been assigned a seat in Paradise and Fire, as i already mentioned the Tradition above!

Also because Prophet (saw) said in another tradition that the Last deeds of a person would determine whether they are destined to paradise and Hell, and so a Muslim is supposed to work hard all his life, and commit to doing good deeds! :)
Reply

Woodrow
08-06-2010, 06:16 PM
Just some questions. If Jesus(as) was a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, where is the sacrifice? If you accept that Jesus(as) is God(swt) he could not die, only the physical body could. But, the physical body would only have been an insignificant bit of created matter, replaceable by God(swt) if he so desired. Giving up something which is insignificant is not a sacrifice. What was the sacrifice? Where is the price of sacrifice paid and to whom was the sacrifice made too? Who paid the price of the sacrifice, if you say God(swt) does that mean Jesus(as) was God(swt)'s property and not God(swt)? Who was the sacrifice made to? To God(swt)? But, does it makes sense in concept of a sacrifice to pay the sacrifice price to yourself?

Did Jesus(as) know he was God(swt)?
Reply

Hiroshi
08-07-2010, 09:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just some questions. If Jesus(as) was a sacrifice for the sins of mankind, where is the sacrifice? If you accept that Jesus(as) is God(swt) he could not die, only the physical body could. But, the physical body would only have been an insignificant bit of created matter, replaceable by God(swt) if he so desired. Giving up something which is insignificant is not a sacrifice. What was the sacrifice? Where is the price of sacrifice paid and to whom was the sacrifice made too? Who paid the price of the sacrifice, if you say God(swt) does that mean Jesus(as) was God(swt)'s property and not God(swt)? Who was the sacrifice made to? To God(swt)? But, does it makes sense in concept of a sacrifice to pay the sacrifice price to yourself?

Did Jesus(as) know he was God(swt)?
My view here, and I will upset someone again for saying so, is that Jesus isn't God. God is immortal and cannot die. But Jesus could die once, and then, according to Romans 6:9, after his resurrection he would never die again (as a reward from God).

Jesus was without sin, so he was the equal of what Adam had been before he sinned. One perfect man (Adam) introduced sin into the human family and so another perfect man (Jesus) was needed to buy back what Adam had lost.

Jesus had the potential to father a whole new perfect race of humanity that would be without sin. But he never did so. Any potential descendants died with him. So although he was just one man, his sacrifice could be viewed as equal to repurchasing all mankind that have ever lived.

Jesus isn't God and so was not sacrificing himself to himself. By his obedience he vindicated and sanctified God's name. Satan brought reproach upon God when he claimed that no human would prove faithful out of genuine love and loyalty (Job 2:4-5). But Jesus provided the perfect answer to Satan's taunting challenge (Proverbs 27:11).
Reply

Insaanah
08-07-2010, 10:11 AM
^ The Islamic view is that there are no such complications (such as God needing to repurchase His own property, and sacrifice a human or the like) involved in forgiving mankind:

"Then Adam received from his Lord words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful." (Qur'an, 2:37)

And such is the case that Allah is All Forgiving for those who believe in Him, repent from wrongdoing and ask sincerely.

Peace.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-07-2010, 10:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Notice that it first mentions that Allah will forgive them. No sacrifice of any sort has been mentioned. After the Muslim in question has been forgiven (out of Allah's Divine Mercy), if the Muslim was next in line to Hell, and Allah forgave him out of His Mercy, then the next Jew or Christian will go in (not the righteous of old).

...

So they are not being unduly punished instead of Muslims. They are receiving the punishment they would always have received. There is no sacrifice of any sort being made. Allah forgives whom He Wills through His Divine Mercy, and not by unjustly making an innocent person carry the burden of another.
The Hadith said:

"Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your rescue from Hell-Fire." And it was explicitly stated that these Jews or Christians were placed in the "stead" of sinful Muslims.

Your explanation seems to be that after a Muslim is forgiven, solely on account of God's mercy, then a Jew or Christian would just happen to be the next in line for Hell-Fire. But the word "rescue" in the above phrase is clearly tied in with this providing a Jew or Christian in the stead of the Muslim. I don't see that you have completely explained away the difficulty.

Can you show me any commentary to support your suggestions?
Reply

Insaanah
08-07-2010, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I don't see that you have completely explained away the difficulty.
^ There is no difficulty to be explained.

I can go better than commentary. I will bring a verse of the Qur'an:

"Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." (Pickthall translation of Qur'an: 2:286)

Thus each person is responsible for their own deeds, and Allah forgives out of His Mercy, and not due to some sacrifice on His part, as shown in the hadeeth below:

The mercy of Allaah is what will admit His believing slaves to Paradise on the Day of Resurrection. No one will ever enter Paradise because of his deeds alone, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No one’s deeds will ever admit him to Paradise.” They said, “Not even you, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “No, not even me, unless Allaah showers me with His Mercy. So try to be near to perfection. And no one should wish for death; he is either doing good so he will do more of that, or he is doing wrong so he may repent.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5349; Muslim, 7042

Thus forgiveness and entry into paradise, will be due to Allah's Mercy.

In Saheeh Muslim it is narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah has one hundred parts of mercy, of which He sent down one between the jinn, mankind, the animals and the insects, by means of which they are compassionate and merciful to one another, and by means of which wild animals are kind to their offspring. And Allaah has kept back ninety-nine parts of mercy with which to be merciful to His slaves of the Day of Resurrection.”

Muslim, al-Tawbah, 6908

It was narrated that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said: “Some prisoners were brought to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and there was a woman among the prisoners who was searching (for her child). When she found her child she embraced him and put him to her breast. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to us, ‘Do you think that this woman would throw her child in the fire?’ We said, ‘No, by Allaah, not if she is able not to.’ The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Allaah is more merciful to His slaves than this woman is to her child.’”

Al-Bukhaari, 5653; Muslim, 6912.

So Allah, All Merciful, will forgive and admit into Paradise, those whom He wills, out of His Mercy.

And some more verses of the Qur'an:

"Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears Allah . And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed]."(4:77, part)

"And fear the Day when you will be returned to Allah. Then every soul will be paid in full that which it has earned, and they will not be treated unjustly." (2:281)

So nobody will be thrown unjustly into hell who did not deserve to be there.

Peace.

EDIT: Just one question that popped into my head, if you don't mind.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
So although he was just one man, his sacrifice could be viewed as equal to repurchasing all mankind that have ever lived.
If God had to re-purchase His own property, who did He purchase it from? Does that mean that God's own property went out of His control, and into somebody else's control for a while eg shaytaans control or someone else's control? Presumably you believe that God paid the price to repurchase His property, the price being Jesus (peace be upon Him). So who was the other party that God made the sacrifice to, and bought back His property from?

Peace.

Reply

Hiroshi
08-08-2010, 08:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
(3:108)... Allah (swt) Wills no wrong to His Creation."
Allah has the perfect right to do anything that Allah chooses with His Creation. So Allah can do no wrong. How could it be otherwise?
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over, is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'" (Muslim)
Pickthall renders Surah 91:7-8 as: "And a soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it." Dawood reads: "by the soul and Him that moulded it and inspired it with knowledge of sin and piety:"

All of my English translations read similarly except for Rodwell (amongst Muslims a most unpopular version). This gives the impression that Surah 91:7-8 is merely saying that God gave to each soul a conscience.

But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!

Rodwell renders the verses: "By a Soul and Him who balanced it, and breathed into it its wickedness and its piety". This does not just say that God gave us a sense of right and wrong. It says that God foreordained (breathed into) each one to commit specific acts of wickedness and specific acts of piety. This is the explanation given in the hadith: The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'


I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.
Reply

aadil77
08-08-2010, 10:11 AM
never heard of rodwell, why not stick to more the established ones www.Quran.com
Reply

Hiroshi
08-08-2010, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
never heard of rodwell,
My point exactly.

Btw, many thanks for the link.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-08-2010, 12:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

^ There is no difficulty to be explained.

I can go better than commentary. I will bring a verse of the Qur'an:

"Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." (Pickthall translation of Qur'an: 2:286)
Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."

format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
EDIT: Just one question that popped into my head, if you don't mind.



If God had to re-purchase His own property, who did He purchase it from? Does that mean that God's own property went out of His control, and into somebody else's control for a while eg shaytaans control or someone else's control? Presumably you believe that God paid the price to repurchase His property, the price being Jesus (peace be upon Him). So who was the other party that God made the sacrifice to, and bought back His property from?
A human life needed to be provided and sacrificed in order to satisfy the righteous requirements of God's own divine justice.
Reply

Insaanah
08-08-2010, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.
I don't think it's a good idea to say that the wool is being pulled over your eyes, when it's a simple case of you not understanding something.

As far as you are concerned, if something has been foreordained, then that means there is no free will, and thus, to you, the Qur'an contradicts the hadeeth. I have explained the issue on the previous page of this thread.

I am re-quoting the hadeeth you mentioned, and putting my explanation for you in red.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over (i.e. Allah's pleasure and Paradise), is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' (i.e. Will Allah will see how things pan out and then decide on heaven and hell, and thus that Allah doesn't know our final destination yet either?) The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'"Allah already knows what choices will be made, with the free will and conscience man has been given, and thus whether the final destination will be heaven or hell, and that has all been written down. (Muslim)
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!
See above.

Peace.
Reply

Woodrow
08-08-2010, 01:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."


A human life needed to be provided and sacrificed in order to satisfy the righteous requirements of God's own divine justice.
I see that meaning they will reap the punishment of misguiding. It is their burden they mislead. They are not taking away or paying for another persons burden. It is their fault they misled and they will pay the penalty for doing so. They also are guilty of the sins committed by the people they mislead. But this is a separate guilt and is not removing or paying for another person's guilt.

Very similar to in a court of law, in which a person who helped a person commit a crime can be convicted as an accessory to the crime. If a persons commits a crime because you misled them, you are guilty of being an accessory and you share the burden of the punishment for the crime. You both get punished, and being the one who did the misleading, you may even receive the greater punishment.
Reply

Insaanah
08-08-2010, 01:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Surah 17:15 says: "no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another." But then Surah 16:25 says: "they may bear their own burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection and some of the burdens of those whom they misguide without knowledge."
You forgot to quote 35:18, which says, "and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted".

There is no contradiction between this and other Ayat such as 16:25, or 17:15.

For those who called others to do evil will bear the sin of their own deviation as well as the sin of those whom they led astray, without detracting the least amount from the burden of those people, and none of this burden shall be removed from them. (Tafseer Ibn Kathir)

So, the burden they are carrying is for misguiding people; they shall carry the burden of that evil deed of theirs, which made others do bad deeds, without the burden of the one who obeyed and followed them being lightened in the least bit.

Peace.
Reply

syed_z
08-08-2010, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Allah has the perfect right to do anything that Allah chooses with His Creation. So Allah can do no wrong. How could it be otherwise?

Pickthall renders Surah 91:7-8 as: "And a soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it." Dawood reads: "by the soul and Him that moulded it and inspired it with knowledge of sin and piety:"

All of my English translations read similarly except for Rodwell (amongst Muslims a most unpopular version). This gives the impression that Surah 91:7-8 is merely saying that God gave to each soul a conscience.

But according to the hadith quoted above, Mohammed himself did not understand Surah 91:7-8 to mean that!

Rodwell renders the verses: "By a Soul and Him who balanced it, and breathed into it its wickedness and its piety". This does not just say that God gave us a sense of right and wrong. It says that God foreordained (breathed into) each one to commit specific acts of wickedness and specific acts of piety. This is the explanation given in the hadith: The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'


I am not happy with these translations when they seem to be pulling the wool over our eyes.

I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..
Reply

Snowflake
08-08-2010, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?

I'm very interested in your comments on this.

Peace to all
Chapter Psalm 91 clearly and indisputably confirms that Jesus never got crucified!



Taken from: http://answering-christianity.com/ac.htm

It is, first of all, important to know that Psalm 91 is referenced more than once in the New Testament for Jesus Christ. So we know for certainty that Psalm 91 is referring to the coming Messiah in the Bible:

Luke 4:10-11

10 For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you (Christ) to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Matthew 4:5-6

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

Satan said so to Jesus Christ and Jesus answered hem: "It is also written..." (matthew4:7) So according the new testament Jesus agreed that It written about him. In Psalm91 we see it.


Let us now take a look at Psalm 91:

(Please pay specially attention to Psalm 91:11-12, 15)
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. [a]
2 I will say [b] of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust."
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. (According to the Noble Quran and the original writings of the Disciples of Jesus, Jesus was not crucified, and he watched the crucifixion of the doomed person).
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. (If Jesus died on the cross and got buried, then his feet would've struck the ground and the stones on it from bringing him down, throwing him on the floor and burying him).
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Footnotes:
a. Psalm 91:1 Hebrew Shaddai
b. Psalm 91:2 Or He says

There is no question!

There is no question that the emphasized parts above, especially in Psalm 91:11-12, 15 and the others, clearly and indisputably agree with the Noble Quran's and Isaiah 52:13 Verses that are shown below. Jesus was neither crucified nor resurrected, and he was protected and lifted by GOD Almighty. Also, the New Testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus Christ.



• Will hear his cries (Psalm 91:15) and save will him (Psalm 91:3).
• He will cover him with His Protection (Psalm 91:4).
• Christ will then not have any fear in him (Psalm 91:5).
• Christ will then observe with his own eyes the punishment of the crucified ones (Psalm 91:8).
• No harm or disaster will even come near Christ (Psalm 91:10....this even contradicts him getting beaten up before crucifixion).
• GOD Almighty will send down the Angels to protect him and lift him (Psalm 91:11-12, 14). Not even his foot will strike the ground from his enemies pushing, grappling and punishment.
• Christ will be delivered and honored (Psalm 91:15).
• His life will be prolonged (extended) and he will live to even see his offspring (Isaiah 53:10, which by the way contradicts Jesus never got married and had children. In Islam's Noble Quran's 13:38, however, it is quite possible that Jesus Christ had wives and children).


• His life will overpower death (Isaiah 53:12).

Peace.
Reply

Pygoscelis
08-09-2010, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..
This post is not directed at you and your interaction above, it is just something that this post brought to my mind. It highlights a common misperception some of the muslims have on this board.

We non-muslims who express opposing views are not here to create doubt and change you, we're here to exchange different vantage points. Of course both the muslims and non-muslims will sometimes be puzzled and yes even dismayed at how the other sees things, but does it not fascinate you?

Discussing matters with people who don't share my worldview is what brought me here and keeps me here. Your worldview (Islam) is polar opposite to my own, the opposite in almost every conceivable way, and I don't encounter it in my real life hardly at all. So it is very interesting to see what some of your fellow muslims have to say about things.

Nobody I've seen on this board wants to change your view, for if we did then we would lose the very reason we come here. If I wanted to talk to like minded people I could just call my neighbours. I speak my mind here as strongly as I do because I am confident that you are solid in your faith and that nothing I say will shake you. If I thought you were fragile I wouldn't say what I do. Its why I avoid the sections aside from comparitive religion and world events (which I see as your virtual mosque). I figure if you venture into these sections here you are venturing forth into the larger marketplace of ideas, so are strong in your convictions.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 07:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I see that meaning they will reap the punishment of misguiding. It is their burden they mislead. They are not taking away or paying for another persons burden. It is their fault they misled and they will pay the penalty for doing so. They also are guilty of the sins committed by the people they mislead. But this is a separate guilt and is not removing or paying for another person's guilt.

Very similar to in a court of law, in which a person who helped a person commit a crime can be convicted as an accessory to the crime. If a persons commits a crime because you misled them, you are guilty of being an accessory and you share the burden of the punishment for the crime. You both get punished, and being the one who did the misleading, you may even receive the greater punishment.
But suppose that the one misled, by pure chance, ended up committing no sin. How could the one misleading then bear some of the other's burden? I think that we need to concede that something does depend on the amount of damage that was caused by the person who was misled.

So it isn't just black and white. There are gray areas. If someone belonged to a group (or actively supported them) and then that group began to do evil things, wouldn't he then become accountable for their sins by continuing to support them?

Looking at things another way, couldn't the good deeds of someone else help a person, even if the person was already burning in hell for their sins?
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan

I don't think it's a good idea to say that the wool is being pulled over your eyes, when it's a simple case of you not understanding something.

As far as you are concerned, if something has been foreordained, then that means there is no free will, and thus, to you, the Qur'an contradicts the hadeeth. I have explained the issue on the previous page of this thread.

I am re-quoting the hadeeth you mentioned, and putting my explanation for you in red.

Two men of Muzaynah came to the Prophet and said, 'O Messenger of God! That for which people now do deeds and strive over (i.e. Allah's pleasure and Paradise), is it something that is already decided and is foreordained or is it something that will come about in future on the basis of what their prophet gave them and on the basis of proof?' (i.e. Will Allah will see how things pan out and then decide on heaven and hell, and thus that Allah doesn't know our final destination yet either?) The Prophet said, 'No, it is something already decided and foreordained for them. This is confirmed by the Book of God: (Qur`an 91:7-8).'"Allah already knows what choices will be made, with the free will and conscience man has been given, and thus whether the final destination will be heaven or hell, and that has all been written down. (Muslim)





See above.

Peace.
Peace my friend.

Consider another hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/077.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611 says:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses".


If Adam exercised free will and sinned, how could he then successfully excuse himself and argue that he was not to blame since Allah had given him that fate?
Reply

aadil77
08-09-2010, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Peace my friend.

Consider another hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/077.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611 says:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses".


If Adam exercised free will and sinned, how could he then successfully excuse himself and argue that he was not to blame since Allah had given him that fate?
nice find, didn't even know prophet Musa spoke to prophet Adam, prophet Musa straight forward as usual :D

All I would say is everything happens by Allahs will, it might have been His will for things to plan out this way
Reply

Woodrow
08-09-2010, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But suppose that the one misled, by pure chance, ended up committing no sin. How could the one misleading then bear some of the other's burden? I think that we need to concede that something does depend on the amount of damage that was caused by the person who was misled.

So it isn't just black and white. There are gray areas. If someone belonged to a group (or actively supported them) and then that group began to do evil things, wouldn't he then become accountable for their sins by continuing to support them?

Looking at things another way, couldn't the good deeds of someone else help a person, even if the person was already burning in hell for their sins?
Now to see if I can clarify this without causing further confusion.

Person A misleads person B
Person B Commits serious sins as a result of being misled and is punished
Person A will be also punished for those sins as he was an accessory to them for misleading

Person A properly leads person B
Person B does good deeds as a result of being properly led and is rewarded
Person A also receives rewards as he was an accessory in causing the good deeds

Person A commits sins in the desire of person B being punished
Person B did nothing so is not punished

Person A does good Deeds in the desire of Person B being rewarded
Person B did nothing so is not rewarded

Person A is not going to be affected in anything person B does
Unless person B is doing them as a result of what person A has done


You can do all of the good deeds possible not one of them will bring me any rewards, unless I was instrumental in leading you to do the good deeds.

Jesus(as) did very many good deeds and is/ will be rewarded for them.
I will not receive one reward for the Good deeds He has done, because I did not lead him to doing the deeds.

Hitler did many Evil deeds and is/will be punished for them.
I will not be punished for any deed Hitler did, as I did not lead him to do them

It is very Probable that Jesus(as) and all of the Prophets(PBUT) will share in the rewards for any good deeds I may do as it is through their teachings they passed down I did them. It is also probable some evil people will share in the punishments for the bad deeds I do, if I do them as a result of their teachings.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 12:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You can do all of the good deeds possible not one of them will bring me any rewards, unless I was instrumental in leading you to do the good deeds.

Jesus(as) did very many good deeds and is/ will be rewarded for them.
I will not receive one reward for the Good deeds He has done, because I did not lead him to doing the deeds.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, number 601 says: "the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'''

See:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/093.sbt.html


This narrative doesn't say that those who were taken out of Hell contributed to Mohammed's good deeds. The only criteria here is that Mohammed pleads for them.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
I've already explained what i had to... all i see is that you and many others like you on www.Islamicboard.com are not here to learn or understand about Islam... you people are here to argue against Islam and somehow create doubts in our hearts.... which you will fail if you are trying to, because why would you keep arguing when some one has already answered it, either you are just playing around or here to create doubts, which you have failed .... and trust me... even though people like you have spent so much time here on the Islamic forum, every one is STILL a Muslim Praise be to Allah, none of us has changed and never will, because no sensible person would trade Truth (Islam) for Falsehood.... So imagine all the time you and others like you have wasted of your life, may be if you would have spent this time learning something better or helping mankind in some way, may be it would have been better for you.... think about it, you still have time... all the best..
I'm sorry that you say these things, Syed. I am constantly learning with every reply that I get on this forum. But I also believe that I have something to offer. And I feel that it is beneficial to get to grips with these matters.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
nice find, didn't even know prophet Musa spoke to prophet Adam, prophet Musa straight forward as usual :D

All I would say is everything happens by Allahs will, it might have been His will for things to plan out this way
Thanks Aadil77.

One other strange thing that I found is the account in Surah 18:80 of a boy that was put to death for a crime that he had not yet committed. According to God's infallible foreknowledge it was determined that he would commit the crime in the future, given the chance. Now here we see God's foreknowledge coming into play, but the free will of the boy does not enter the picture. He was never given the opportunity to choose what he would do. This is one reason why I see God's foreordination as ruling out any genuine free will on the part of men.
Reply

Woodrow
08-09-2010, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, number 601 says: "the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'''



See:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/093.sbt.html


This narrative doesn't say that those who were taken out of Hell contributed to Mohammed's good deeds. The only criteria here is that Mohammed pleads for them.
Perhaps the Hadith is explaining that the way to avoid hellfire is to worship only Allaah(swt). Bukhari is quoting what Muhammad(PBUH) said. Look a bit closer at the words.



I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.

Muhammad's intercession is his teaching us to worship Allaah(swt) alone.
Reply

Insaanah
08-09-2010, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Consider another hadith:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/077.sbt.html

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 77, Number 611 says:

"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'O Adam! You are our father who disappointed us and turned us out of Paradise.' Then Adam said to him, 'O Moses! Allah favored you with His talk (talked to you directly) and He wrote (the Torah) for you with His Own Hand. Do you blame me for action which Allah had written in my fate forty years before my creation?' So Adam confuted Moses".


If Adam exercised free will and sinned, how could he then successfully excuse himself and argue that he was not to blame since Allah had given him that fate?
Most likely because he was highly embarrassed of what he had done!

This sounds more like light hearted banter between two prophets to me, as in an argument between two brothers. The fact that two of those beloved to Allah were arguing, then this was most likely light hearted in nature.

Embarrassment of what immediately resulted from the sin certainly did ensue:

"Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals. And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you. Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you? They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost!" (Qur'an 7:20-23)

So there is no reason he wouldn't be embarrassed of the sin itself, and thus lightheartedly blame God when another beloved of God reminded him of it. And Allah knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
One other strange thing that I found is the account in Surah 18:80 of a boy that was put to death for a crime that he had not yet committed. According to God's infallible foreknowledge it was determined that he would commit the crime in the future, given the chance. Now here we see God's foreknowledge coming into play, but the free will of the boy does not enter the picture. He was never given the opportunity to choose what he would do. This is one reason why I see God's foreordination as ruling out any genuine free will on the part of men.
As I have already explained in a few posts now, Allah, the All Knowing, knew what choice he would make with the free will he had been given.

Kindly note- The blessed month of Ramadan is almost upon us, and this will be my last post in this thread for the duration of the month at least. I suspect you may come back with another hadeeth or refutation from the page on the answering-islam website. If you do choose to do so, just be aware that I shall not be responding for the next month at least. This is a month of mercy and blessings, and I wish to make the most of it.

Peace.
Reply

Hiroshi
08-09-2010, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insane Insaan
Kindly note- The blessed month of Ramadan is almost upon us, and this will be my last post in this thread for the duration of the month at least. I suspect you may come back with another hadeeth or refutation from the page on the answering-islam website. If you do choose to do so, just be aware that I shall not be responding for the next month at least. This is a month of mercy and blessings, and I wish to make the most of it.

Peace.
Kindly noted. Thanks for all your posts. I wish you a restful month and look forward to future discussions with you in the days ahead after Ramadam :D.

Peace.
Reply

Zafran
08-09-2010, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Thanks Aadil77.

One other strange thing that I found is the account in Surah 18:80 of a boy that was put to death for a crime that he had not yet committed. According to God's infallible foreknowledge it was determined that he would commit the crime in the future, given the chance. Now here we see God's foreknowledge coming into play, but the free will of the boy does not enter the picture. He was never given the opportunity to choose what he would do. This is one reason why I see God's foreordination as ruling out any genuine free will on the part of men.
How do you know that the boy had not yet committed any crime??

Another thing is that we are all put in specific cricumstances that are destined for us however we have the choice how to act upon these tests that we are already put in. The choice we make is the will we have.

Here I would also like to ask you how there is free will and determinism works in christianity?
Reply

جوري
08-09-2010, 03:46 PM
I doubt very much any of those ahadith are true or quoted in totality or contextually, one I have noticed comes from the now hijacked Islamic site which turned into some and I quote:
''Muslim-Jewish Engagement''

in which of course they are free to add/subtract/ twist at whim and the other is from this pathetic and utterly laughable christian desperation site..
previously he'd quoted a hadith about the prophet PBUH drinking wine which I have totally debunked, the same can be done with the rest!

:w:
Reply

aadil77
08-09-2010, 05:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Thanks Aadil77.

One other strange thing that I found is the account in Surah 18:80 of a boy that was put to death for a crime that he had not yet committed. According to God's infallible foreknowledge it was determined that he would commit the crime in the future, given the chance. Now here we see God's foreknowledge coming into play, but the free will of the boy does not enter the picture. He was never given the opportunity to choose what he would do. This is one reason why I see God's foreordination as ruling out any genuine free will on the part of men.
This freewill/predestination topic is quite complex - I try not to dwell over it too much, All I can say is that we have to go along with whatever Allah wills

Allah created Hell for the sole purpose of punishing people, there are always some people who are meant to end up in Hell and others in heaven - that is Allah's will
Reply

YusufNoor
08-09-2010, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Thanks Aadil77.

One other strange thing that I found is the account in Surah 18:80 of a boy that was put to death for a crime that he had not yet committed. According to God's infallible foreknowledge it was determined that he would commit the crime in the future, given the chance. Now here we see God's foreknowledge coming into play, but the free will of the boy does not enter the picture. He was never given the opportunity to choose what he would do. This is one reason why I see God's foreordination as ruling out any genuine free will on the part of men.
:sl:

you have to read the Qur'an with understanding. the boy was gong to be such a rebel that [and this translation doesn't serve the purpose well]:

[18.80] And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:
[18.81] So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.
his parents would have left the Din. Allah removed him in order to save the parents, which may have also by default saved him. that is one of the reason we refer to Allah as the MOST Beneficent, the MOST Merciful.

it is better to try and understand Tawheed and Islam before trying to guess at what certain Ayats of the Qur'an or Ahadeeth may mean.

:wa:
Reply

Hiroshi
08-10-2010, 12:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
How do you know that the boy had not yet committed any crime??
Let's be fair. Moses is mystified as to why the boy is put to death and the only reason that he is given is that it is because the lad will make trouble for his parents in the future if he is allowed to live. This is explained quite explicitly. If the boy had already done something else deserving of death then this future problem was hardly worth mentioning.
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Another thing is that we are all put in specific cricumstances that are destined for us however we have the choice how to act upon these tests that we are already put in. The choice we make is the will we have.

Here I would also like to ask you how there is free will and determinism works in christianity?
Christians who follow the ideas of Jean Calvin believe very much the same as what Muslims do on determinism. Speaking for myself, I believe that God does not foresee everything before it happens although God could choose to do so if he wanted.
Reply

Zafran
08-10-2010, 01:42 PM
Let's be fair. Moses is mystified as to why the boy is put to death and the only reason that he is given is that it is because the lad will make trouble for his parents in the future if he is allowed to live. This is explained quite explicitly. If the boy had already done something else deserving of death then this future problem was hardly worth mentioning.
Thats the whole point of the story - That Moses pbuh even being a prophet of God does not know everything. Have you even read the story do you even know the messege behind it? Thats not the only the thing that happens in the story two other things happen as well. How is it explicit? It just tells us that the boy would do terrible things in the future to his parents - how do we know that he didnt do anything in the past?

Christians who follow the ideas of Jean Calvin believe very much the same as what Muslims do on determinism. Speaking for myself, I believe that God does not foresee everything before it happens although God could choose to do so if he wanted.
and what is it that muslims believe on determinism? What about St Augustine and St Thomas Aqunies what do they believe?
Reply

Woodrow
08-10-2010, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Let's be fair. Moses is mystified as to why the boy is put to death and the only reason that he is given is that it is because the lad will make trouble for his parents in the future if he is allowed to live. This is explained quite explicitly. If the boy had already done something else deserving of death then this future problem was hardly worth mentioning.

Christians who follow the ideas of Jean Calvin believe very much the same as what Muslims do on determinism. Speaking for myself, I believe that God does not foresee everything before it happens although God could choose to do so if he wanted.
Surah al-Kahf is quite lengthy. It can be confusing if you take a single ayyat in it out of context.

Here is a bit more of the Surah:

16 When you turn away from them and the things they worship other than Allah, get yourself to the cave: your Lord will shower his mercies on you and dispose of your affair towards comfort and ease.
17 you would have seen the sun, when it rose, declining to the right from their cave, and when it set, turning away from them to the left, while they lay in the open space in the midst of the cave. Such are among the signs of Allah: he whom Allah guides is rightly guided; but he whom Allah leaves to stray, for him will you find no protector to lead him to the right way.
18 You would have deemed them awake, while they were asleep, and we turned them on their right and on their left sides: their dog stretching forth his two fore legs on the threshold: if you had come up on to them, you would have certainly turned back from them in flight, and would certainly have been filled with terror of them.
19 So we raised them up that they might question each other. One of them said, how long have you stayed? They said, we have stayed a day, or part of a day. They said, Allah knows best how long you have stayed here. Now send then one of you with this money of yours to the town: let him find out which is the best food and bring some to you, that you satisfy your hunger therewith: and let him behave with care and courtesy, and let him not inform anyone about you.
20 For if they should come upon you, they would stone you or force you to return to their cult, and in that case you would never attain prosperity.

21 Thus did we make their case known to the people, that they might know that the promise of Allah is true, and that there can be no doubt about the hour of judgment. Behold, they disputed among themselves as to their affair and said, construct a building over them: their Lord knows best about them: those who prevailed over their affair said, let us surely build a place of worship over them.
22 Some say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them. Others say they were five, the dog being the sixth, doubtfully guessing at the unknown. Still others say they were seven, the dog being the eighth. Say: My Lord knows best their number; it is but few that know their real case. Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about the sleepers.
23 Nor say of anything, I shall be sure to do so and so to morrow.
24 Without adding, Insha Allah, and call your Lord to mind when you forget, and say, I hope that my Lord will guide me ever closer than this to the right road.
25 So they stayed in their cave three hundred years and add nine.
26 Say: Allah knows best how long they stayed: with him is the secrets of the heavens and the earth: how clearly he sees, how finely he hears. They have no protector other than him; nor does he share his command with any person whatsoever.
27 And recite what has been revealed to you of Al-Kitab of your Lord. None can change his words, and none will you find as a refuge other than him.

28 And keep your soul content with those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking his face; and let not your eyes pass beyond them, seeking the pomp and glitter of this life; nor obey him whose heart we have permitted to neglect the remembrance of us, one who follows his own desires, whose case has gone beyond all bounds.
29 Say, the truth is from your Lord: let him who will, believe, and let him who will, reject it: for the wrongdoers we have prepared a fire whose smoke and flames, like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces. How dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!
30 As to those who believe and work righteousness, truly we shall not suffer to perish the reward of any who do a righteous deed.
31 For them will be gardens of eternity; beneath them rivers will flow: they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade; they will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the reward! How beautiful a couch to recline on!
32 Set forth to them the parable of two men: for one of them we provided two gardens of grapevines and surrounded them with date palms; in between the two we placed corn fields.
33 Each of those gardens brought forth its produce, and failed not in the least therein: in the midst of them we caused a river to flow.
34 Abundant was the produce this man had: he said to his companion, in the course of a mutual argument: "More wealth have I than you, and more honour and power in my following of men."

35 He went into his garden in a state of mind unjust to his soul: he said, "I deem not that this will ever perish,
36 "Nor do I deem that the Hour will come: even if I am brought back to my Lord, I shall surely find something better in exchange.
37 His companion said to him, in the course of the argument with him: "Do you deny him who created you out of dust, then out of a sperm-drop, then fashioned you into a man?"
38 "But he is Allah, my Lord, and none shall I associate with my Lord.
39 "Why did you not, as you go into your garden, say: 'Allah's will be done! There is no power but with Allah! If you see me less than you in wealth and sons,
40 "It may be that my Lord will give me something better than your garden, and that he will send on your garden thunderbolts from heaven, making it slippery sand!
41 "Or the water of the garden will run off underground so that you will never be able to find it."
42 So his fruits were encompassed, and he remained twisting and turning his hands over what he had spent on his property, which had tumbled to pieces to its very foundations, and he could only say, "Woe is me! Would I had never ascribed partners to my Lord!"
43 Nor had he numbers to help him against Allah, nor was he able to deliver himself.
44 Protection comes from Allah, the true one. He is the best to reward, and the best to give success.
45 Set forth to them the comparison of the life of this world: it is like the rain which we send down from the skies: the earth's vegetation absorbs it, but soon it becomes dry stubble, which the winds do scatter: it is Allah who prevails over all things.

46 Wealth and sons are allurements of the life of this world: but the things that endure, good deeds, are best in the sight of your Lord, as rewards, and best as hopes.
47 One day we shall remove the mountains, and you will see the earth as a level stretch, and we shall gather them, all together, nor shall we leave out anyone of them.
48 And they will be marshalled before your Lord in ranks. "Now you have come to us as we created you first: yes, you thought we shall not fulfil the appointment made to you to meet us."
49 And the book will be placed, and you will see the sinful in great terror because of what is therein; they will say, Ah woe to us! What a book this is! It leaves out nothing small or great, but takes account of it. They will find all that they placed before them: and not one will your Lord treat with injustice.
50 Behold we said to the angels, bow down to Adam they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the command of his Lord. Will you than take him and his children as protectors rather than me? And they are enemies to you. Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers.
51 I called them not to witness the creation of heavens and the earth, nor their own creation: nor is it for me to make as helpers such as lead astray.
52 One day he will say, call on those whom you thought to be my partners, and they will call on them, but they will not listen to them; and we shall make for them a place of common perdition.
53 And the sinful shall see the fire and apprehend that they have to fall therein: no means will they find to turn away therefrom.

54 We have explained in detail in this Quran, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of comparison: but man is, in, most things, contentious.
55 And what is there to keep men from believing, now that guidance has come to them, nor from praying for forgiveness from their Lord, but that they ask that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them, or the wrath be brought to them face to face?
56 We only send the messengers to give glad tidings and to give warnings: but the unbelievers dispute with vain argument, in order therewith to weaken the truth, and they treat my signs as a jest, as also the fact that they are warned!
57 And who does more wrong than one who is reminded of the signs of his Lord, but turns away from them, forgetting the deeds which his hands have sent forth? Truly we have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this, and over their ears, deafness. If you call them to guidance, even then will they never accept guidance.
58 But your Lord is most forgiving, full of mercy. If he were to call them to account for what they have earned, then surely he would have hastened their punishment: but they have their appointed time, beyond which they will fined no refuge.
59 Such were the populations we destroyed when they committed iniquities; but we fixed an appointed time for their destruction.
60 Behold, Musa said to his attendant, I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or until I spend years and years in travel.
61 But when they reached the junction, they forgot about their fish, which took its course through the sea as in a tunnel.

62 When they had passed on, Musa said to his attendant: bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this stage of our journey.
63 He replied: "Did you see when we took ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget about the fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell you about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!"
64 Musa said: that was what we were seeking after: so they went back on their footsteps, following the path they had come.
65 So they found one of our servants, on whom we had bestowed mercy from ourselves and whom we had taught knowledge from our own.
66 Musa said to him: may I follow you, on the footing that you teach me something of the truth which you have been taught?
67 The other said: truly you will not be able to have patience with me.
68 And how can you have patience about things about which your understanding is not complete?
69 Musa said: you will find me, if Allah so will, patient: nor shall I disobey you in anything.
70 The other said: if then you would follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to you concerning it.
71 So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Musa: have you scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing have you done.
72 He answered: did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?
73 Musa said: rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case.
74 Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Musa said: have you slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul thing have you done.

75 He answered: did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?
76 Musa said: if ever I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company: then would you have been excused from my side.
77 Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. Musa said: if you had wished, surely you could have exacted some reward for it.
78 He answered: this is the parting between me and you: now will I tell you the interpretation of those things over which you were unable to hold patience.
79 As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
80 As for the youth, his parents were people of faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude.
81 So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange a son better in purity and closer in affection.
82 As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled; their father had been a righteous man: so your Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure a mercy from your Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of those things over which you were unable to hold patience.
83 They ask you concerning Zul Qarnain. Say, I will rehearse to you something of his story.
Who killed the boy?

Why did they kill him?

How is this predestination?

Was it not the free will of those who killed him, to kill him? You may question the reason they were justified in doing so, but that is a separate topic than one of predestination.
Reply

YusufNoor
08-10-2010, 02:23 PM
:sl:

Hiroshi, why do assume something bad happened to the boy? IF Allah removed him from the Dunya BEFORE he became a non-believer/criminal, then he STILL has a chance at Paradise!

WHAT free will is involved here?

THE PARENTS! they CHOSE to worship non but Allah and Allah rewarded them by protecting them from the 1st child [and MAYBE thereby saving said child] and rewarded them with a more fruitful child. Allahu Akbar!

here's a GREAT video on Qadr, by Abdullah ibn Farsi [right click on the link ans "save as"]:

http://www.qsep.com/EemanDVD/PredestinationDVD.htm

:wa:
Reply

Hiroshi
08-10-2010, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
and what is it that muslims believe on determinism?
I thought about that after I wrote my reply. The man, Dr Ahmad Shafaat, whose article appears in the link below, seems to have quite extreme views where man has no free will at all:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/I...terminism1.htm

But most Muslims that I have spoken to say that man does have free will, although God has perfect foreknowledge of what man will do at all times.

And some Muslims believe that the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
What about St Augustine and St Thomas Aqunies what do they believe?
Don't know. Do you want to tell me?
Reply

Zafran
08-10-2010, 04:48 PM
I thought about that after I wrote my reply. The man, Dr Ahmad Shafaat, whose article appears in the link below, seems to have quite extreme views where man has no free will at all:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/I...terminism1.htm

But most Muslims that I have spoken to say that man does have free will, although God has perfect foreknowledge of what man will do at all times.

And some Muslims believe that the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes.
I believe all muslims would agree that we do have will and certian things are determined as well.

What about St Augustine and St Thomas Aqunies what do they believe?
It would be a good idea to check there views out and see that christainty itself does not have an agreement on this issue at all. - So I'm not sure what your trying to get at here?
Reply

Woodrow
08-10-2010, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I thought about that after I wrote my reply. The man, Dr Ahmad Shafaat, whose article appears in the link below, seems to have quite extreme views where man has no free will at all:

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/I...terminism1.htm

But most Muslims that I have spoken to say that man does have free will, although God has perfect foreknowledge of what man will do at all times.

And some Muslims believe that the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes.


Don't know. Do you want to tell me?
Predestination and Free will have long been a source of contention among all who believe in God(swt) it is difficult to separate all knowing from predestination. Many of the Early Protestant denominations were strong adherents of predestination most notably the Puritans, Calvinists and early Presbyterians and I believe also the Congregationalists. It also seems to play a considerable role in the Catholic concept of "Divine Providence"

The only choice that makes sense is to have in Faith in Allaah(swt) and believe him when he told us we have free will and will be judged fairly.

I don't know how it works that Allaah(swt) can know what I will do or say; and for it to be my own free will. But, why do I need to understand? I am very comfortable in my ability to exercise free will and I believe Allaah(swt) is all knowing, why should I complicate things with philosophical mind experiments?
Reply

Woodrow
08-10-2010, 05:26 PM
Before we close this section for Ramadan I just want to ask Heroshi a few questions to think over before we reopen.

In at least one of your posts you stated you are not Trinitarian and do not believe Jesus(as) is God(swt) But you do believe Jesus(as) died on the cross in atonement for Mankind's sins.

Now did Jesus(as) know he was going to die ?

Was it by his choice he died?

If not did he have any free will about being born to die as a sacrifice?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-13-2010, 10:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Before we close this section for Ramadan I just want to ask Heroshi a few questions to think over before we reopen.

In at least one of your posts you stated you are not Trinitarian and do not believe Jesus(as) is God(swt) But you do believe Jesus(as) died on the cross in atonement for Mankind's sins.

Now did Jesus(as) know he was going to die ?

Was it by his choice he died?

If not did he have any free will about being born to die as a sacrifice?
Hi Woodrow. Nice to be back.

I believe that Jesus died and was resurrected. Doesn't Surah 19:33 say this? But I do not believe that Jesus died on a cross. The original language words in the Greek scriptures: "stauros" and "xylon" both mean a single upright stake; not two beams at right angles. The cross symbol adopted by the church, and treated as an object of worship by many, seems to be of pagan origin.

But yes, I believe that Jesus died as atonement for our sins. Jesus knew that he was born to die and accepted that of his own free will with perfect obedience. I believe very strongly that God cannot die. Ever. So then if Jesus died once then he cannot be God (Romans 6:9).
Reply

Woodrow
09-13-2010, 01:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Hi Woodrow. Nice to be back.

I believe that Jesus died and was resurrected. Doesn't Surah 19:33 say this? But I do not believe that Jesus died on a cross. The original language words in the Greek scriptures: "stauros" and "xylon" both mean a single upright stake; not two beams at right angles. The cross symbol adopted by the church, and treated as an object of worship by many, seems to be of pagan origin.

But yes, I believe that Jesus died as atonement for our sins. Jesus knew that he was born to die and accepted that of his own free will with perfect obedience. I believe very strongly that God cannot die. Ever. So then if Jesus died once then he cannot be God (Romans 6:9).
We believe Allaah(swt) lifted Jesus(a.s.) up to heaven and He has yet to die. This is why it is essential for him to return to earth and complete his life and die as all Humans must. Surah 19 Ayyat 33 reads: "[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected." It does not say say Jesus died and was resurrected, but that he will as will all humans. He has yet to die read Surah 4::

156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-


Jesus has yet to die and was not, nor ever will be a sacrifice for man's sins. After he does die and is resurrected he will be a witness against those who worship him as a Savior and Sacrifice.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-13-2010, 01:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I believe that Jesus died and was resurrected. Doesn't Surah 19:33 say this? .
Surah 19:33 says that jesus pbuh was born a peaceful birth, will die a peaceful death and will be raised (during judgement day) a peaceful resurrection.

Interesting how you seem to have penchant of picking up one ayah here and there to make your assumption while disregarding the context and completely disregarding other ayahs about the profile (in this case jesus pbuh, who is mentioned in many ayahs explaining in details how he was rescued by Allah SWT and raised alive to heaven and will be returned to earth and will die a peaceful death then).

Do you really believe that that dying on cross is a peaceful death?

This, again, proves that Qur'an is accurate and there is no contradiction.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-13-2010, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
We believe Allaah(swt) lifted Jesus(a.s.) up to heaven and He has yet to die. This is why it is essential for him to return to earth and complete his life and die as all Humans must. Surah 19 Ayyat 33 reads: "[19:33] And peace be upon me the day I was born, the day I die, and the day I get resurrected." It does not say say Jesus died and was resurrected, but that he will as will all humans. He has yet to die read Surah 4::

156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-


Jesus has yet to die and was not, nor ever will be a sacrifice for man's sins. After he does die and is resurrected he will be a witness against those who worship him as a Savior and Sacrifice.
Rodwell's translation of the Qur'an says at Surah 3:55 "Remember when God said, ‘O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection."

A footnote here reads: "Muhammad probably believed that God took the dead body of Jesus to Heaven — for three hours according to some — while the Jews crucified a man who resembled him. Sura iv. 156. The word motewaffika (comp. Sura xxxix. 156) means, in speaking of God, to cause to die, take to himself. It would also seem from Sura xix. 34, that Muhammad supposed Jesus to have died a natural death, though it is nowhere said how long he continued in that state. The Muhammadans believe that Jesus on his return to earth at the end of the world will slay the Antichrist, die, and be raised again. A vacant place is reserved for his body in the Prophet’s tomb at Medina. See Lieut. Burton’s ‘Pilgrimage,’ vol. ii."

See:
http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Rodwell_Koran.html


Does this mistranslate Surah 3:55 and is Rodwell's commentary on the Arabic word "motewaffika" totally wrong?
Reply

abdussattar
09-13-2010, 01:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
God took the dead body of Jesus to Heaven — for three hours according to some
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
that Muhammad supposed Jesus to have died a natural death,
Jesus never died...

Muslims believe that jesus was taken up by god before the people came to kill him..
Reply

Woodrow
09-13-2010, 02:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Rodwell's translation of the Qur'an says at Surah 3:55 "Remember when God said, ‘O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection."

A footnote here reads: "Muhammad probably believed that God took the dead body of Jesus to Heaven — for three hours according to some — while the Jews crucified a man who resembled him. Sura iv. 156. The word motewaffika (comp. Sura xxxix. 156) means, in speaking of God, to cause to die, take to himself. It would also seem from Sura xix. 34, that Muhammad supposed Jesus to have died a natural death, though it is nowhere said how long he continued in that state. The Muhammadans believe that Jesus on his return to earth at the end of the world will slay the Antichrist, die, and be raised again. A vacant place is reserved for his body in the Prophet’s tomb at Medina. See Lieut. Burton’s ‘Pilgrimage,’ vol. ii."

See:
http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Rodwell_Koran.html


Does this mistranslate Surah 3:55 and is Rodwell's commentary on the Arabic word "motewaffika" totally wrong?
The Rodewell translation while giving an interesting view, should not be taken as the definitive translation. while it is a good translation it like all translation falls far short of being accurate. With a stretch of the imagination motewaffika might be translated as to die. But a more accurate meaning is "Taken up". While mote can be translated as to die the addition of wa ffika changes the context and gives more of a meaning of lifted up, not our concept of death. Rodewell is a reasonbly good translater, but he is not qualified to give tafsir (Commentary) While he is within his right to give his personal opinion, his commentaries should not be considered to be the findings of trusted Quranic scholars.
Reply

Woodrow
09-13-2010, 02:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Rodewell translation while giving an interesting view, should not be taken as the definitive translation. while it is a good translation it like all translation falls far short of being accurate. With a stretch of the imagination motewaffika might be translated as to die. But a more accurate meaning is "Taken up". While mote can be translated as to die the addition of wa ffika changes the context and gives more of a meaning of lifted up, not our concept of death. Rodewell is a reasonbly good translater, but he is not qualified to give tafsir (Commentary) While he is within his right to give his personal opinion, his commentaries should not be considered to be the findings of trusted Quranic scholars.
Yusuf Ali gives a much more accurate translation of 3:55

55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
Reply

Woodrow
09-13-2010, 02:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Indeed. Would you not also agree that it is this assignment of what are the best things about us to God in this anthropomorphic fashion that is at least partially responsible for that arrogance and self-righteousness? With the best bits alienated (a word that will clue in some that this is hardly an original thought!) only the worst bits are left to fester?
We seem to be in full agreement here.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-13-2010, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdussattar



Jesus never died...

Muslims believe that jesus was taken up by god before the people came to kill him..
Taken up to heaven without dying? Do you believe that this has happened to anyone else, e.g. Mary, as the Catholics Church teaches?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-13-2010, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The Rodewell translation while giving an interesting view, should not be taken as the definitive translation. while it is a good translation it like all translation falls far short of being accurate. With a stretch of the imagination motewaffika might be translated as to die. But a more accurate meaning is "Taken up". While mote can be translated as to die the addition of wa ffika changes the context and gives more of a meaning of lifted up, not our concept of death. Rodewell is a reasonbly good translater, but he is not qualified to give tafsir (Commentary) While he is within his right to give his personal opinion, his commentaries should not be considered to be the findings of trusted Quranic scholars.
Doesn't Surah 39:42 also use the word motewaffika when it says: "GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect"?

http://www.---------------/suras/sura39.html
Reply

abdussattar
09-13-2010, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Taken up to heaven without dying?
Yes, That is what happened.
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Do you believe that this has happened to anyone else, e.g. Mary, as the Catholics Church teaches?
No This is exceptional with jesus only.
Reply

abdussattar
09-13-2010, 04:09 PM
By the way, check this out.

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/
Reply

Woodrow
09-13-2010, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Doesn't Surah 39:42 also use the word motewaffika when it says: "GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect"?

http://www.---------------/suras/sura39.html
Who on earth did that translation you are reading?

39:42
42. It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
Now let us look at the Ayyat in Arabic:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى

Allahu yatawaffa alanfusa heena mawtiha waallatee lam tamut fee manamiha fayumsiku allatee qada AAalayha almawta wayursilu alokhra ila ajalin musamman inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona (42)

Where in the actual ayyat do you see the word motewaffika?






Are you sure you are reading a translation of the Quran. what you found on the dubious site does not look much like The Quran ::

[39:42]GOD puts the souls to death when the end of their life comes, and also at the time of sleep. Thus, He takes some back during their sleep, while others are allowed to continue living until the end of their predetermined interim. This should provide lessons for people who reflect.

Which if written in Arabic would read as:

الله يضع ارواح حتى الموت عند نهاية حياته وتأتي أيضا, وحتى وقت النوم. ومن ثم يأخذ البعض على ظهره أثناء النوم, بينما يسمح بمواصلة العيش حتى نهاية محددة سلفا مؤقتا. ومن شأن ذلك أن تقدم دروسا لمن يعبر
Reply

aadil77
09-13-2010, 07:35 PM
Hiroshi - read this comment by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall, found in the foreword of his english translation of the Quran:

It may be reasonably claimed that no Holy Scripture can be fairly presented by one who disbelieves in its inspiration and its message; and this is the first English translation of the Qur'an by an Englishman who is a Muslim. Some of the translations include comments offensive to Muslims, and almost all employ a style of language which Muslims at once recognise as unworthy.

please stick to translations by muslims
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-13-2010, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Rodwell's translation of the Qur'an says at Surah 3:55 "Remember when God said, ‘O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection."

A footnote here reads: "Muhammad probably believed that God took the dead body of Jesus to Heaven — for three hours according to some — while the Jews crucified a man who resembled him. Sura iv. 156. The word motewaffika (comp. Sura xxxix. 156) means, in speaking of God, to cause to die, take to himself. It would also seem from Sura xix. 34, that Muhammad supposed Jesus to have died a natural death, though it is nowhere said how long he continued in that state. The Muhammadans believe that Jesus on his return to earth at the end of the world will slay the Antichrist, die, and be raised again. A vacant place is reserved for his body in the Prophet’s tomb at Medina. See Lieut. Burton’s ‘Pilgrimage,’ vol. ii."

See:
http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Rodwell_Koran.html


Does this mistranslate Surah 3:55 and is Rodwell's commentary on the Arabic word "motewaffika" totally wrong?
Seeying since we "muslims" are refferred to as the "Muhammadans", when we are not! and are called the "muslims" therefore proving that source is not accurate by any means. Its not the source muslims will support whatsoever it is, i however have never heard of "Rodwells" translation.

I shall quote you
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Surah 3:55 "Remember when God said, ‘O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection."
i thought you was talking about surah 19:33, you suddenly jump and bring up some next source which doesnt support muslims or Islaam esp when we are reffered to as the "Muhammadans" :-\

Anyways . . .

This is the Surah you mentioned Surah Maryam verse 33
\"And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!\"

In no way does this surah prove the death or crucifiction took place with Jesus (pbuh), Is this verse Jesus Pbuh says peace be upon him the day he WAS born, the day he DIES, not died, and the day he SHALL be raised alive.

If you know who Rodwell is, could you please provide some authentic information about him such as Biography, is he muslim etc.
Thankyou

PEACE
Reply

Dave...
09-14-2010, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.

I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.

This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?

I'm very interested in your comments on this.

Peace to all
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066
Another thread has me thinking. Thanks to all of you who have been posting about Christianity's belief that Jesus had to die so sin can be forgiven as well as Islam's counter response.
I have been taught that God cannot stand sin. One sin is enough to merit eternal hellfire. The Breach of one sin can only be paid with the blood of God's only son. Man cannot atone for the dammage he has commited. This is taught that as God is just the penalty must be paid it cannot be waived.
This is not making sense to me. God is Omniscent, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. The whole teaching of the bible is to forgive the repentent offender. Nowhere does it say forgive the offender after he makes reperations. If God is merciful than he can forgive any offense aginst him. If man can wound God so much that he must bleed to be able to forgive what man has done how can he than be God?? Can the clay pot harm the potter? Can the cornstalk harm the planter? How can creation become so powerful that he can limit God's ability to grant mercy without God himself dying?
I'm very interested in your comments on this.
Peace to all

Hi Seeker.

God's attributes are all perfect. He can never not be perfect. He is by nature perfect in all His ways, perfect holiness, perfect justice, perfect righteousness, etc. This is not a separate standard that He lives by, rather, it is the very essence of Who God is. So, for God to compromise on any of these perfect attributes, just once, would also mean He would cease to be God. In short, He cannot compromise on Who He is without ceasing to be Who He is. This was exactly the point when we read in Hebrews that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God's character never changes. The Law is a reflection of His character. God's Law demands perfect obedience because God is perfectly Holy, righteous, just, etc. God's justice is driven by His holiness. Therefore, He must punish sin. Look at the lengths that He went to so as not to compromise His holiness, justice, righteousness, etc. when Jesus was sent to the cross on our behalf. At the cross we see the greatest act of God's love and mercy towards us and while at the same time, simultaneously, His perfect justice was being satisfied on our behalf. It was done this way so that His perfect holiness and righteousness were not compromised.

In short, God is constrained by His nature. He cannot just wink at sin. A just and Holy God must punish sin. Every one of them. Adam and Eve were cast away from God's presence because His perfect holiness and perfect righteousness, which are foundational to His perfect justice, demanded that seperation as a result of their sin. Not one sin can He turn His back on.

If God could lie why would I believe anything that He said? For that matter, why would I believe His prophets, His believers, or anyone speaking on His behalf? Jesus told us that He is the truth. He told us that His Word is Truth. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh.... I'll give you a few examples from scripture. God...

1) cannot lie--Titus 1:2

2) "...cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone..."--James 1:13

3) is never unjust, always just.--Dueteronomy 32:4. (The word justice implies guilt in the one receiving the justice)

Is God bound by these truths? Yes. That's why we can trust in His Word.

See Romans 10:2-4; 9-13. 2 Corinthians 5:21. Too much to go over in one post. This is the condensed version. If you or anyone has any questions, please ask. It is only the righteousness of God that can save us, because it is only the righteousness of God that is perfect, as God's justice demands.

Dave
Reply

Woodrow
09-14-2010, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dave...
Hi Seeker.

God's attributes are all perfect. He can never not be perfect. He is by nature perfect in all His ways, perfect holiness, perfect justice, perfect righteousness, etc. This is not a separate standard that He lives by, rather, it is the very essence of Who God is. So, for God to compromise on any of these perfect attributes, just once, would also mean He would cease to be God. In short, He cannot compromise on Who He is without ceasing to be Who He is. This was exactly the point when we read in Hebrews that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God's character never changes. The Law is a reflection of His character. God's Law demands perfect obedience because God is perfectly Holy, righteous, just, etc. God's justice is driven by His holiness. Therefore, He must punish sin. Look at the lengths that He went to so as not to compromise His holiness, justice, righteousness, etc. when Jesus was sent to the cross on our behalf. At the cross we see the greatest act of God's love and mercy towards us and while at the same time, simultaneously, His perfect justice was being satisfied on our behalf. It was done this way so that His perfect holiness and righteousness were not compromised.

In short, God is constrained by His nature. He cannot just wink at sin. A just and Holy God must punish sin. Every one of them. Adam and Eve were cast away from God's presence because His perfect holiness and perfect righteousness, which are foundational to His perfect justice, demanded that seperation as a result of their sin. Not one sin can He turn His back on.

If God could lie why would I believe anything that He said? For that matter, why would I believe His prophets, His believers, or anyone speaking on His behalf? Jesus told us that He is the truth. He told us that His Word is Truth. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word became flesh.... I'll give you a few examples from scripture. God...

1) cannot lie--Titus 1:2

2) "...cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone..."--James 1:13

3) is never unjust, always just.--Dueteronomy 32:4. (The word justice implies guilt in the one receiving the justice)

Is God bound by these truths? Yes. That's why we can trust in His Word.

See Romans 10:2-4; 9-13. 2 Corinthians 5:21. Too much to go over in one post. This is the condensed version. If you or anyone has any questions, please ask. It is only the righteousness of God that can save us, because it is only the righteousness of God that is perfect, as God's justice demands.

Dave
Peace Dave.

I know I am nitpicking but I do not fully agree with this sentence.

Is God bound by these truths? Yes. That's why we can trust in His Word.

Allaah(swt) is beyond the concept of being bound. It is not that he is bound by those Truth it is He, who is the source of these Truths and they are in accordance with His will.

It is we who are bound by those truths and we can trust in his word, because His will is the source of all things..
Reply

Hiroshi
09-14-2010, 10:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Who on earth did that translation you are reading?
Is it incorrect? I gave you the link to it:

http://www.---------------/suras/sura39.html


format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
39:42

Now let us look at the Ayyat in Arabic:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى

Allahu yatawaffa alanfusa heena mawtiha waallatee lam tamut fee manamiha fayumsiku allatee qada AAalayha almawta wayursilu alokhra ila ajalin musamman inna fee thalika laayatin liqawmin yatafakkaroona (42)

Where in the actual ayyat do you see the word motewaffika?
Oh that's right. I don't see it there. But I do see the word "yatawaffa" (from "tawaffi"?) which must be close.


This link:
http://www.institutealislam.com/jesu...amal-a-badawi/

connects "mutawaffika" with "tawaffi":

“Mutawaffika” in (3:55) and “Tawaffaytani” in (5:120) refer to “completing” your term or mission on earth. “Tawaffi” is used also in the Qur’an for other than death (6:60, 39:42).


In the footnote to Surah 3:55 Rodwell asks us to compare Surah xxxix:156. I believe that this is a careless error or misprint and he actually meant Surah 39:42 (since there are only 75 verses!!). This is why I connected Surah 39:42 with Surah 3:55.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-14-2010, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
In the footnote to Surah 3:55 Rodwell asks us to compare Surah xxxix:156. I believe that this is a careless error or misprint and he actually meant Surah 39:42 (since there are only 75 verses!!). This is why I connected Surah 39:42 with Surah 3:55.
and yet you keep insisting on using his translation
....

:bravo:
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-14-2010, 11:58 AM
surely you Christians have better things to do. goodness, get a life for crying out loud.
Reply

Woodrow
09-14-2010, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Is it incorrect? I gave you the link to it:

http://www.---------------/suras/sura39.html




Oh that's right. I don't see it there. But I do see the word "yatawaffa" (from "tawaffi"?) which must be close.


This link:
http://www.institutealislam.com/jesu...amal-a-badawi/

connects "mutawaffika" with "tawaffi":

“Mutawaffika” in (3:55) and “Tawaffaytani” in (5:120) refer to “completing” your term or mission on earth. “Tawaffi” is used also in the Qur’an for other than death (6:60, 39:42).


In the footnote to Surah 3:55 Rodwell asks us to compare Surah xxxix:156. I believe that this is a careless error or misprint and he actually meant Surah 39:42 (since there are only 75 verses!!). This is why I connected Surah 39:42 with Surah 3:55.
The link you gave for the translation is very possibly the most inaccurate translation I have ever read. I doubt that many errors would be accidental. The author of that translation is the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa an apostate who was very anti-Islamic. His Translation was a deliberate attempt to provide a false translation of the Quran to demean and attack Islam.

Before a person goes about comparing words on the basis of having the same root. They had best know enough Arabic to understand the word they are comparing.

Stop and think in English ::: for Example the word bolt can be used in 2 opposite meanings -- To bolt the board down. To bolt away in fear. Same word same root yet in one usage it means to secure something and in the other usage it means to break loose from.

It is not wise to look for things in a language if you do not know the language. The fact that words have the same root is not necessarily indicative they have the same meaning.
Reply

aadil77
09-14-2010, 04:24 PM
repeat.......
Reply

aadil77
09-14-2010, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Is it incorrect? I gave you the link to it:

http://www.---------------/suras/sura39.html
--------------- is an anti-islam site run by a deviant group who are not considered muslim, heres some comments on them:

--------------- is a site created and maintained by followers of rashad khaleefa, who like many others before him, has claimed prophethood after Muhammad (saw), although Islam clearly states that no prophet is to come after Muhammad (saw)....

there r many muslim scholars who have refuted the claims of rashad khaleefa, and he has only a very small number of followers....
others who tend to follow him r those who look for excuses to drink and fornicate, and rashad khaleefa's theories please them well, and hence they opt to follow him....


It's the main page of a sect of Islam known as Submitters/Koranists. Though there may be some true information on the site (the sect revolved around the Qur'an after all), I would not recommend it to anyone seeking information on Islam. The sect rejects the practice of the Sunnah of Rasulullah (saw), which is critical to our deen.


refrain from using such websites or you will risk getting banned

like I've said before stick to the well established translations of the Quran, www.Quran.com
Reply

Hiroshi
09-14-2010, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
--------------- is an anti-islam site run by a deviant group who are not considered muslim, heres some comments on them:

--------------- is a site created and maintained by followers of rashad khaleefa, who like many others before him, has claimed prophethood after Muhammad (saw), although Islam clearly states that no prophet is to come after Muhammad (saw)....

there r many muslim scholars who have refuted the claims of rashad khaleefa, and he has only a very small number of followers....
others who tend to follow him r those who look for excuses to drink and fornicate, and rashad khaleefa's theories please them well, and hence they opt to follow him....


It's the main page of a sect of Islam known as Submitters/Koranists. Though there may be some true information on the site (the sect revolved around the Qur'an after all), I would not recommend it to anyone seeking information on Islam. The sect rejects the practice of the Sunnah of Rasulullah (saw), which is critical to our deen.


refrain from using such websites or you will risk getting banned

like I've said before stick to the well established translations of the Quran, www.Quran.com
I might get banned eventually anyway although I am trying to stick to the rules of the powers that be. Anyway, thanks for the warning. I truthfully had no idea that anything was amiss. Khaleefa's rendering didn't look any different to me than a dozen others although I now notice unusual wording in Surah 3:55 and Surah 5:117.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-14-2010, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The link you gave for the translation is very possibly the most inaccurate translation I have ever read. I doubt that many errors would be accidental. The author of that translation is the late Dr. Rashad Khalifa an apostate who was very anti-Islamic. His Translation was a deliberate attempt to provide a false translation of the Quran to demean and attack Islam.
Thanks for the information. I honestly didn't know that.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-14-2010, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
and yet you keep insisting on using his translation
....

:bravo:
Doesn't look very clever does it? But sometimes useful information can be found in his translation.
Reply

Woodrow
09-14-2010, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I might get banned eventually anyway although I am trying to stick to the rules of the powers that be. Anyway, thanks for the warning. I truthfully had no idea that anything was amiss. Khaleefa's rendering didn't look any different to me than a dozen others although I now notice unusual wording in Surah 3:55 and Surah 5:117.
Have no fear the Brother was doing you a favor. Yes we will ban people who consistantly post links to deviant site. But we do understand that most non-Muslims would not recognize a deviant site and as long as we feel the member is doing so in good faith and without malice we will issue a warning and only request they do not repeat it. Be sincere in your questions and do not post out of malice is all we ask from all members. We are human too and we do understand errors will be made. We only ask that a member stop repeating the same errors after being warned.

Kalifa was a very shrewd man. Some of his translation is among the best seen. But he was very devious and used his knowledge to slip in some very non-Islamic thoughts. He pictured himself as and called himself a Prophet. It appears he was slowly re-translating the Qur'an into a manner that would support his claim for prophet-hood. I suspect he was trying to establish a caliphate with himself as the Caliph .Foolish man. No Muslim accepts any translation as being the Qur'an, we know all translations contain errors and the unintended opinion of the author. While his deviancy in translating might slip past those with no knowledge of Arabic any person knowing even rudimentary Arabic immediately sees the glaring false translations in his work. The sad part is he was an expert in both Arabic and English. He had the potential of writing the most accurate translation ever, but he misused his expertise in hopes of self gain.
Reply

YusufNoor
09-14-2010, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Doesn't look very clever does it? But sometimes useful information can be found in his translation.
actually, Khaleefa is a MAJOR Kufar! just toss his translation out the window, along with his "miraculous" number 19 crap!

btw, i saw somewhere that you are a Jehovah's witness. i KNEW there was something about you that i liked!
did you know that Jehovah is NOT God's Name, nor is it a proper translation of the tetragrammaton?

it WAS a Jehovah's Witness that got me interested in studying the Bible over 3 decades ago!

how do you feel that Christians like Grace Seeker claim that you are NOT a Christian?

:wa:
Reply

Dave...
09-14-2010, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace Dave.

I know I am nitpicking but I do not fully agree with this sentence.

Is God bound by these truths? Yes. That's why we can trust in His Word.

Allaah(swt) is beyond the concept of being bound. It is not that he is bound by those Truth it is He, who is the source of these Truths and they are in accordance with His will.

It is we who are bound by those truths and we can trust in his word, because His will is the source of all things..
Thanks Woodrow. If you don't mind, I will also nit pick, or perhaps elaborate is the better word.

It is true to say that God is His own standard, but sometimes people misunderstand that statement. That's why I try to avoid saying it in that way. Those who incorrectly understand that statement usually believe in a kind of form of relativism, meaning that they believe something like ... 'God can lie, but because He is God, it is not a lie.' I disagree with that kind of reasoning. I believe that if God tells us that He cannot lie, that He cannot lie. That is not a deep theological matter.

Granted, at the same time it does not mean that we, as mere mortals, have the capability to understand everything that God does, thus making us able to judge Him with fallen assumptions. I'm speaking with regards to God's judgments. But, and this is a very big BUT, does this mean that we should then take that idea to it's limits and say that because our mind is not His mind, and because our thoughts are not His thoughts, that nothing in God's Word can be taken as absolute because in the end we just don't know?

Woodrow, I'm sure that you would agree with me, that there is a balance to be considered here. We can hold to God's Word and know it's always the truth. We also know that sometimes, for various reasons, there are going to be limitations to our understanding the depths of everything in His word. I'm sure that you would agree that we must all be careful to try ask the difficult questions, and seek the answers to those questions, for any of us to hold to the correct balance here, and not use those limitations that I spoke of as an excuse to believe in something apart from testing it carefully.

Here are some scriptures that come to mind in light of this discussion.

God cannot go against His own nature (Habakkuk 1:13). The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works (Psalms 145:17). Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe (2 Chronicles 19:7). Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong (Job 34:10). To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him (Psalms 92:15).

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty? (Jeremiah 2:5).


Dave
Reply

Woodrow
09-15-2010, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dave...
Thanks Woodrow. If you don't mind, I will also nit pick, or perhaps elaborate is the better word.

It is true to say that God is His own standard, but sometimes people misunderstand that statement. That's why I try to avoid saying it in that way. Those who incorrectly understand that statement usually believe in a kind of form of relativism, meaning that they believe something like ... 'God can lie, but because He is God, it is not a lie.' I disagree with that kind of reasoning. I believe that if God tells us that He cannot lie, that He cannot lie. That is not a deep theological matter.

Granted, at the same time it does not mean that we, as mere mortals, have the capability to understand everything that God does, thus making us able to judge Him with fallen assumptions. I'm speaking with regards to God's judgments. But, and this is a very big BUT, does this mean that we should then take that idea to it's limits and say that because our mind is not His mind, and because our thoughts are not His thoughts, that nothing in God's Word can be taken as absolute because in the end we just don't know?

Woodrow, I'm sure that you would agree with me, that there is a balance to be considered here. We can hold to God's Word and know it's always the truth. We also know that sometimes, for various reasons, there are going to be limitations to our understanding the depths of everything in His word. I'm sure that you would agree that we must all be careful to try ask the difficult questions, and seek the answers to those questions, for any of us to hold to the correct balance here, and not use those limitations that I spoke of as an excuse to believe in something apart from testing it carefully.

Here are some scriptures that come to mind in light of this discussion.

God cannot go against His own nature (Habakkuk 1:13). The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works (Psalms 145:17). Now then let the fear of the LORD be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the LORD our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe (2 Chronicles 19:7). Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong (Job 34:10). To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him (Psalms 92:15).

Thus says the LORD, "What injustice did your fathers find in Me, That they went far from Me And walked after emptiness and became empty? (Jeremiah 2:5).


Dave
Peace Dave,

No problem. Each of us only has a small concept of the omnipotence of God(swt) it is understandable we will use different phrases as we are both trying to describe the infinite. Perhaps we can agree that the power of God(swt) is impossible to understand. Each of us will have a different description of what we see and why we see what we see. My preference is to use will not instead of can not. But, that is most likely simply personal preference. I see the use of "can not" as placing a limit. You see it differently. In any case I think we can both agree the power of God(swt) is beyond ourunderstanding and we each only understand within the terms of what we have the ability to understand.

I hope that made sense. Honest I actually do speak English and grew up as a Connecticut Yankee. I just seem to have the ability to make the simple complex.
Reply

Seeker1066
09-15-2010, 05:16 AM
Dave how would you than reconcile God ordering us to save the innocent and condemning the Baal child sacraficers yet have the Israelites kill babies???

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "NIV
Reply

Hiroshi
09-15-2010, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
actually, Khaleefa is a MAJOR Kufar! just toss his translation out the window, along with his "miraculous" number 19 crap!
Yes, but I was referring to Rodwell's translation for the "useful information", not Khaleefa's. I don't have Khaleefa's version and had never heard of it until Woodrow put me wise. Now I have been told not to quote from Rodwell either.

format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
btw, i saw somewhere that you are a Jehovah's witness. i KNEW there was something about you that i liked!
Thanks. Likewise.
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor


did you know that Jehovah is NOT God's Name, nor is it a proper translation of the tetragrammaton?

it WAS a Jehovah's Witness that got me interested in studying the Bible over 3 decades ago!

how do you feel that Christians like Grace Seeker claim that you are NOT a Christian?

:wa:
Well, the Bible says many times that this is God's real name. The rendering "Jehovah" is derived from the consonants of one word and the vowels of another so a mistake was involved. But the fact is that we cannot be sure today what the vowels were in any case since the Jews stopped pronouncing the word until it's true sound passed out of memory.

I don't mind Grace Seeker and myself having our disagreements as long as we can have friendly discussions.

So, Jehovah's Witnesses have got you interested in the Bible for 30 years?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-15-2010, 06:31 AM
Hi, мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє.

format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

Seeying since we "muslims" are refferred to as the "Muhammadans", when we are not! and are called the "muslims" therefore proving that source is not accurate by any means.
Sorry. Hope you weren't offended.

format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

I shall quote you

i thought you was talking about surah 19:33, you suddenly jump and bring up some next source which doesnt support muslims or Islaam esp when we are reffered to as the "Muhammadans" :-\

Anyways . . .

This is the Surah you mentioned Surah Maryam verse 33
\"And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!\"

In no way does this surah prove the death or crucifiction took place with Jesus (pbuh), Is this verse Jesus Pbuh says peace be upon him the day he WAS born, the day he DIES, not died, and the day he SHALL be raised alive.
And Surah 19:31 says that Jesus would give alms or charity (zakat) for as long as he lives. Has he then been giving money to charity for the past 2,000 years while he has been in heaven?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-15-2010, 07:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Before a person goes about comparing words on the basis of having the same root. They had best know enough Arabic to understand the word they are comparing.

Stop and think in English ::: for Example the word bolt can be used in 2 opposite meanings -- To bolt the board down. To bolt away in fear. Same word same root yet in one usage it means to secure something and in the other usage it means to break loose from.

It is not wise to look for things in a language if you do not know the language. The fact that words have the same root is not necessarily indicative they have the same meaning.
Mutawaffika and it's derivatives appear more than 25 times in the Qur'an and always imply death, dying or causing to die (except for Surah 6:60 and 39:42 where the word figuratively refers to sleep).

Please see Surah 2:234; 2:240; 3:55; 3:193; 4:15; 4:97; 5:117; 6:61; 8:50; 10:46; 10:104; 12:101; 13:40; 16:28; 16:32; 16:70; 22:5; 32:11; 40:67; 40:77; 47:27.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage. Only in Surah 3:55 and 5:117 where the word is applied to Jesus does the translator avoid referring to death.

My question is why? Why is it so important to believe that Jesus didn't die when Allah "took him up" as was the case with all other humans? Are there hadith's that explicitly state that Jesus has never died up until now?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-15-2010, 07:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdussattar
By the way, check this out.

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/
Thanks. It is a lot to take in but very interesting.
Reply

Woodrow
09-15-2010, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Mutawaffika and it's derivatives appear more than 25 times in the Qur'an and always imply death, dying or causing to die (except for Surah 6:60 and 39:42 where the word figuratively refers to sleep).

Please see Surah 2:234; 2:240; 3:55; 3:193; 4:15; 4:97; 5:117; 6:61; 8:50; 10:46; 10:104; 12:101; 13:40; 16:28; 16:32; 16:70; 22:5; 32:11; 40:67; 40:77; 47:27.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage. Only in Surah 3:55 and 5:117 where the word is applied to Jesus does the translator avoid referring to death.

My question is why? Why is it so important to believe that Jesus didn't die when Allah "took him up" as was the case with all other humans? Are there hadith's that explicitly state that Jesus has never died up until now?
I do not know of any ahadith that address that Jesus(as) never died. But the Ahadith are a collection of what Muhammad said, not what is in the Qur'an. Apparently this was never an issue until recent times. We need not make it an issue if we look back as to what has always been taught in the Islamic colleges beginning with the oldest one
Al-Azhar University: This university, located in Egypt, is the world’s second oldest surviving degree-granting institute. Founded in 970-972, this university serves as a center for Arabic literature and Sunni Islamic learning. Al-Azhar university concentrates upon a religious syllabus, which pays special attention to the Quranic sciences and traditions of the Prophet Muhammad on the one hand, while also teaching all modern fields of science.
You are a sadistic little rascal making an old man work ;D


but you are getting on the right track in what it takes to translate Arabic into English. You are getting a grasp I see in this sentence.

I suggest to you that the definition of the word as it has been translated is determined more by context than by customary usage.
Arabic words do derive their meaning based upon the context. You have just given me a very large serving to explain why a particular meaning is used in each of those ayyats.

On a side note in regards to humans we do not view the death of a human in quite the same way as death in animals. We believe humans are aware of being in the grave and those who die unrepentant begin their eternal suffering at the moment they enter the state of death and there is suffering or Peace for the person the entire time they are in the grave dependent upon their repentance of lack of repentance. The torments of the grave can be very horrifying. In many ways our concept of the soul is similar to the JW concept in that the soul and body are basically the same or integrated into being the make up of a human. (not exactly that but only way I can explain it in my own words) A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist. You need to grasp this concept before you can begin to understand mutawaffika.

Inthe ayyats you are quoting above you are using words that have the same root as mutawaffika, but they are not the same word as mutawaffika and you need to understand the full context of the surah to understand what is meant.


In 2:234 the word used is يُتَوَفَّوْنَ yutawaffawna

Which in English carries the meaning of die. It is used again in 240. Which is with context of the ayyats as the ayyats are giving instructions as to what a man should do to provide for his widow.

In 3:55 the word used is مُتَوَفِّيكَ mutawaffika which when standing alone has no English equivelent. But it is not a stand alone word and must be used in a phrase in this case the minimal phrase is: إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ innee mutawaffika warafiAAuka

Which when standing alone translates as I am causing you to die, but when taken in full context of the ayyat إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

It now translates as
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
In this context Allaah(swt) is speaking to Jesus(as) and in the context of what is being said the concept of taking up is more logical and within the context of what Allaah(swt) is saying. Since the first revelation of the Qur'an, this has always been seen as the meaning. There never was any question as to what was meant until the English translation came about. Keep in mind there never was an English translation attempted directly from Arabic until 1734 and the first acceptable English translation directly from Arabic was by Pickthall in 1930.

I will attempt to get back to this in a day or 2 at the moment I am getting ready to drive to Fargo to spend the day with my wife who is still in the hospital and will be for at least 2 more weeks. Currently she requires daily physical therapy until she can walk good enough to navigate her way through the jungle we call home. (We have too many stairs and she is not yet able to climb stairs, when she regains that ability, she gets to come home.)
Reply

Hiroshi
09-15-2010, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do not know of any ahadith that address that Jesus(as) never died. But the Ahadith are a collection of what Muhammad said, not what is in the Qur'an. Apparently this was never an issue until recent times. We need not make it an issue if we look back as to what has always been taught in the Islamic colleges beginning with the oldest one

You are a sadistic little rascal making an old man work ;D


but you are getting on the right track in what it takes to translate Arabic into English. You are getting a grasp I see in this sentence.



Arabic words do derive their meaning based upon the context. You have just given me a very large serving to explain why a particular meaning is used in each of those ayyats.

On a side note in regards to humans we do not view the death of a human in quite the same way as death in animals. We believe humans are aware of being in the grave and those who die unrepentant begin their eternal suffering at the moment they enter the state of death and there is suffering or Peace for the person the entire time they are in the grave dependent upon their repentance of lack of repentance. The torments of the grave can be very horrifying. In many ways our concept of the soul is similar to the JW concept in that the soul and body are basically the same or integrated into being the make up of a human. (not exactly that but only way I can explain it in my own words) A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist. You need to grasp this concept before you can begin to understand mutawaffika.

Inthe ayyats you are quoting above you are using words that have the same root as mutawaffika, but they are not the same word as mutawaffika and you need to understand the full context of the surah to understand what is meant.


In 2:234 the word used is يُتَوَفَّوْنَ yutawaffawna

Which in English carries the meaning of die. It is used again in 240. Which is with context of the ayyats as the ayyats are giving instructions as to what a man should do to provide for his widow.

In 3:55 the word used is مُتَوَفِّيكَ mutawaffika which when standing alone has no English equivelent. But it is not a stand alone word and must be used in a phrase in this case the minimal phrase is: إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ innee mutawaffika warafiAAuka

Which when standing alone translates as I am causing you to die, but when taken in full context of the ayyat إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

Ith qala Allahu ya AAeesa innee mutawaffeeka warafiAAuka ilayya wamutahhiruka mina allatheena kafaroo wajaAAilu allatheena ittabaAAooka fawqa allatheena kafaroo ila yawmi alqiyamati thumma ilayya marjiAAukum faahkumu baynakum feema kuntum feehi takhtalifoona

It now translates as

In this context Allaah(swt) is speaking to Jesus(as) and in the context of what is being said the concept of taking up is more logical and within the context of what Allaah(swt) is saying. Since the first revelation of the Qur'an, this has always been seen as the meaning. There never was any question as to what was meant until the English translation came about. Keep in mind there never was an English translation attempted directly from Arabic until 1734 and the first acceptable English translation directly from Arabic was by Pickthall in 1930.

I will attempt to get back to this in a day or 2 at the moment I am getting ready to drive to Fargo to spend the day with my wife who is still in the hospital and will be for at least 2 more weeks. Currently she requires daily physical therapy until she can walk good enough to navigate her way through the jungle we call home. (We have too many stairs and she is not yet able to climb stairs, when she regains that ability, she gets to come home.)
Many thanks for your valuable research, Woodrow. And I am very sorry to put an old man to so much work.

I wish you well and I hope and pray that your wife improves in her health and condition. Thanks again.
Reply

Seeker1066
09-16-2010, 02:45 AM
May God(Allah) speed you wives recovery and bring her home to you.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-22-2010, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A human is composed of 3 parts Jism (The physical body) Nafs (The persona or personality) and the Rooh (The non dieing spiritual aspect) Death in humans is another aspect of life and does not mean the person has ceased to exist.
These Arabic words sound very similar to the Hebrew words that I am familiar with. "Nafs" might be the equivalent of the Hebrew "Nephesh" which is usually translated "soul" and means a living person or animal. "Rooh" sounds like "Ruah" which is Hebrew for "spirit" and has about 7 different meanings (including, for example, a spirit being such as an angel, or the life force of a person or animal, or breath). But neither word means something that continues conscious existence after the death of the body.
Reply

aadil77
09-22-2010, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
These Arabic words sound very similar to the Hebrew words that I am familiar with. "Nafs" might be the equivalent of the Hebrew "Nephesh" which is usually translated "soul" and means a living person or animal. "Rooh" sounds like "Ruah" which is Hebrew for "spirit" and has about 7 different meanings (including, for example, a spirit being such as an angel, or the life force of a person or animal, or breath). But neither word means something that continues conscious existence after the death of the body.

From what I know our concious state in the grave will be very different to that of this world, time will either go fast for the believer or very slow for the disbeliever
Reply

Hiroshi
09-23-2010, 12:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
From what I know our concious state in the grave will be very different to that of this world, time will either go fast for the believer or very slow for the disbeliever
So I have read in the hadiths.


There is an account in the Qur'an (can't remember where just now) of a man who Allah causes to die for a hundred years and then restores to life. When he is asked how much time has passed, he replies: "A day, or part of a day." But then he is shown his dead donkey which has rotted to bare bones. And he realises that it has been a hundred years.

You could perhaps take that to mean that time for the dead man was speeded up. But you could also take it to mean that he was entirely unconscious while dead.
Reply

aadil77
09-23-2010, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
So I have read in the hadiths.


There is an account in the Qur'an (can't remember where just now) of a man who Allah causes to die for a hundred years and then restores to life. When he is asked how much time has passed, he replies: "A day, or part of a day." But then he is shown his dead donkey which has rotted to bare bones. And he realises that it has been a hundred years.

You could perhaps take that to mean that time for the dead man was speeded up. But you could also take it to mean that he was entirely unconscious while dead.
Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly
Reply

Hiroshi
09-24-2010, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly
Please explain one thing.

In Surah 17:1 we are told that Muhammed is taken on a miraculous journey to a sacred mosque. There, according to hadith, he sees, among others, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

Now with the exception of Jesus, we should expect these men who died long ago to be confined to their graves, according to what you have told me. Why then does Muhammed see them in the mosque?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-24-2010, 12:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Like I said a different state of conciousness, possibly more similar to a dream, one thing to remember is that we will be asked 3 questions in the grave by angels so I think there has to be some kind of conciousness to answer those questions properly
I am wondering if the Qur'an says anywhere at all that the soul is conscious before a person is resurrected. All of the references to consciousness in the grave or elsewhere seem to be in the hadiths. Am I wrong here? Can you show me the 3 questions in the grave by angels in the Qur'an?
Reply

Woodrow
09-24-2010, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I am wondering if the Qur'an says anywhere at all that the soul is conscious before a person is resurrected. All of the references to consciousness in the grave or elsewhere seem to be in the hadiths. Am I wrong here? Can you show me the 3 questions in the grave by angels in the Qur'an?
You are correct. They are from Authenticate and reliable Ahadith.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-24-2010, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You are correct. They are from Authenticate and reliable Ahadith.
Hi Woodrow. Thanks for your reply. I hope things are well with you.

One other thing that I would like to ask is this: Surah 40:11 and Surah 44:56 seem to speak of a first death and a second death. How does somebody come to die twice?
Reply

abdussattar
09-24-2010, 03:57 PM
The first life refers to the life in this world, and the second life refers to the life after being resurrected, on the day of judgment.
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
One other thing that I would like to ask is this: Surah 40:11 and Surah 44:56 seem to speak of a first death and a second death. How does somebody come to die twice?
the first death is the state before being born in the world, the second death is after the life in the world
the first life is the life in the world, the second life is after resurrected during the judgement day
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Hiroshi
09-24-2010, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by abdussattar
The first life refers to the life in this world, and the second life refers to the life after being resurrected, on the day of judgment.
Hi Abdussattar.

So then these ones speaking in Surah 40:11 are dead. Killed a second time. Is that correct?

"They will say: "Our Lord! twice hast Thou made us without life, and twice hast Thou given us Life! Now have we recognised our sins: Is there any way out (of this)?""
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Hiroshi
09-25-2010, 06:08 AM
Aahih Al-Bukhari Book 60 Number 254 says:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Allah's Apostle said, "On the Day of Resurrection Death will be brought forward in the shape of a black and white ram. Then a call maker will call, 'O people of Paradise!' Thereupon they will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' By then all of them will have seen it. Then it will be announced again, 'O people of Hell !' They will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' And by then all of them will have seen it. Then it (that ram) will be slaughtered and the caller will say, 'O people of Paradise! Eternity for you and no death O people of Hell! Eternity for you and no death."' Then the Prophet, recited:-- 'And warn them of the Day of distress when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness (i.e. the people of the world) and they do not believe.' (19.39)

Quoted from:
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_disp...number=254#254

If the ones speaking in Surah 40:11 are dead and in Hell (or on their way to it) why does the hadith say: "... no death O people of Hell! Eternity for you and no death"? Are those in Hell alive or dead?
Reply

Woodrow
09-25-2010, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Aahih Al-Bukhari Book 60 Number 254 says:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Allah's Apostle said, "On the Day of Resurrection Death will be brought forward in the shape of a black and white ram. Then a call maker will call, 'O people of Paradise!' Thereupon they will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' By then all of them will have seen it. Then it will be announced again, 'O people of Hell !' They will stretch their necks and look carefully. The caller will say, 'Do you know this?' They will say, 'Yes, this is Death.' And by then all of them will have seen it. Then it (that ram) will be slaughtered and the caller will say, 'O people of Paradise! Eternity for you and no death O people of Hell! Eternity for you and no death."' Then the Prophet, recited:-- 'And warn them of the Day of distress when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness (i.e. the people of the world) and they do not believe.' (19.39)

Quoted from:
http://www.searchtruth.com/book_disp...number=254#254

If the ones speaking in Surah 40:11 are dead and in Hell (or on their way to it) why does the hadith say: "... no death O people of Hell! Eternity for you and no death"? Are those in Hell alive or dead?
What is Death? How does one define death? Is the death of a human the same as the death of an animal?

To understand the concept of Death in a human you have to keep in mind we are created to be immortal While we are given a physical body to live upon this earth, that body is not us, it is only part of us. While death is reserved for what happens to our physical body, there is no death for our persona and soul. The body can be and will be created, destroyed and resurrected. But, our soul is immortal and will never taste death in a physical sense. This mass of physical protoplasm we call pur body is replaceable and one day it will be cast aside and replaced with an immortal body designed for Life (Jannah) However those who follow the path to hellfire will be Dead to the joys of Jannah and will be forgotten by those in Jannah. They alone will be aware of their own death for all of eternity. They too will gain an immortal body, and curse having it. Being dead does not obliterate the immortal soul.
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YusufNoor
09-25-2010, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Please explain one thing.

In Surah 17:1 we are told that Muhammed is taken on a miraculous journey to a sacred mosque. There, according to hadith, he sees, among others, Abraham, Moses and Jesus.

Now with the exception of Jesus, we should expect these men who died long ago to be confined to their graves, according to what you have told me. Why then does Muhammed see them in the mosque?
:sl:

Greetings Hiroshi,

i see that you are still doing your best to ask really complicated questions! did you know that Tawheed, the Oneness of Allah is what we are meant to be explaining to you? without truly understanding the Message of Allah's Oneness, the answers to many of you questions might not make sense to you.

if you can spare an hour or 2 of your time, Shaykh Abdullah al Farsi deals with the issue of the state of the Prophets in this lecture, the issue is dealt with in the 2nd half of the 1st video, found here:

http://www.qsep.com/dvd/fourfoundations.html

i recommend that you watch the whole of both parts, but you could begin at the segmented parts and start with the one labeled:
07. Refuting the calim of worldly life for the Mesengers in Barzakh

again, i want to remind you that if you take things out of context, they might appear as less than understandable.

some questions for you:

are you allowed by your Religion to read our Books or books on other faiths?

what are your beliefs on the condition of the Christian Scriptures?

don't you have a different "version" of the Bible than other Christians? if so, why?

btw, perhaps it would help us here when you ask some of your "complicated" questions if you were to let us know what your own Religion tells you on these specific matters, we might be able to spot your "confusion" with an issue more quickly that way. most of us have NO CLUE how much your Religion is different from that of other "Christians."

I don't mind Grace Seeker and myself having our disagreements as long as we can have friendly discussions.
actually, he says straight out that JW's are NOT "Christians" and that it would be better for you even if you were a Muslim! which WOULD be better!

So, Jehovah's Witnesses have got you interested in the Bible for 30 years?
it was her 1st time someone showed me a change in the Bible, changing Passover to Easter in the KJ. it was also the 1st time that i saw a Bible containing Hebrew/ English in the OT and Greek/English in the NT, all numbered to Strong's. THAT was REALLY IMPRESSIVE! while i was never a JW, i always felt that they were one of the VERY FEW forms of "Christianity" that actually love God and try to follow the Christian Scriptures to the best of their ability! that is also impressive in the "Jesus loves you, do whatever the heck you want" era of "Christianity."

of course, Islam is MORE dedicated to God and His True Message!

:wa:
Reply

Hiroshi
09-26-2010, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:



some questions for you:

are you allowed by your Religion to read our Books or books on other faiths?

what are your beliefs on the condition of the Christian Scriptures?

don't you have a different "version" of the Bible than other Christians? if so, why?



:wa:
Hi YusufNoor.

Sorry for the complicated questions. They don't seem to lead anywhere so I will try to keep things simple.

No, we are not supposed to study books and literature of other religious faiths. But I do it anyway.

My understanding concerning the condition of the Greek scriptures is that essentially we have them today as they were recorded by the writers. There are some variant readings in the texts of the manuscripts. But in most cases these variations do not affect doctrinal matters. Usually these are simply the result of copyist errors. By comparing the vast numbers of ancient manuscripts that are now available most of these errors can be eliminated.

One example is found at 1 Timothy 3:16 where the word "he" (referring to Jesus) was wrongly copied as "God" due to a firm line showing through from the other side of the parchment changing the appearance of a letter. Modern research and more reliable ancient manuscripts make for far more accurate readings of the text. "God" appears in the King James at 1 Timothy 3:16 but not in more modern versions.

JWs have translated their own version of the Bible: the New World Translation. It has many critics. But I will explain any objections that might be raised.
Reply

Woodrow
09-26-2010, 03:42 PM
Peace Hiroshi,

As you may gather from this forum many Muslims are not certain as to what is meant by a person being a JW. I have some questions if you have time to answer them, rather then derailing this thread further I am Starting a new thread titled: "Questions for Jehovah Witnesses" in the comparative religion section.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1371202
Reply

Hiroshi
09-27-2010, 07:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
What is Death? How does one define death? Is the death of a human the same as the death of an animal?

To understand the concept of Death in a human you have to keep in mind we are created to be immortal While we are given a physical body to live upon this earth, that body is not us, it is only part of us. While death is reserved for what happens to our physical body, there is no death for our persona and soul. The body can be and will be created, destroyed and resurrected. But, our soul is immortal and will never taste death in a physical sense. This mass of physical protoplasm we call pur body is replaceable and one day it will be cast aside and replaced with an immortal body designed for Life (Jannah) However those who follow the path to hellfire will be Dead to the joys of Jannah and will be forgotten by those in Jannah. They alone will be aware of their own death for all of eternity. They too will gain an immortal body, and curse having it. Being dead does not obliterate the immortal soul.
But the Bible does not say that the soul is immortal. And neither does the Qur'an.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-27-2010, 07:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace Hiroshi,

As you may gather from this forum many Muslims are not certain as to what is meant by a person being a JW. I have some questions if you have time to answer them, rather then derailing this thread further I am Starting a new thread titled: "Questions for Jehovah Witnesses" in the comparative religion section.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1371202
Okay. We can move over to there.
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