Hinduism VS Islam

[aadil77]

Keep your questions about hinduism/islam limited to this thread

[K.Venugopal]

Do you believe that Islam is the only true religion? If so, why?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

yes.

Related verses :

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion....( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #3)

And this (submission to Allah, Islam) was enjoined by Ibrahim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Yaqoob (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allah has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islam (as Muslims - Islamic Monotheism)."

( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #132)

[أحمد]

:sl:

Islam is the only complete true religion, although other previous religions do contain elements of truth; they have been changed over time.

:wa:

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[marwen]

1) We believe Allah exists and He's just One God.
2) We believe Muhammad(Peace and Blessing Upon Him) never lied and he's a real prophet from Allah with supporting miracles and evidences of his prophet-hood.
3) We believe the Holy Qur'an is the true words of Allah revealed to Prophet Muhammad Peace and Blessing Upon Him. And we follow every word in the quran and in the sunnah (of the prophet Peace and Blessing Upon Him)
4) Allah said to us in quran through his messenger Muhammad (Peace and Blessing Upon Him) that Islam is the only true religion. So we believe in that.

[Zafran]

Do you believe that Islam is the only true religion? If so, why?

Yes it is - which is the sumbission to the will of God on God's terms and not our own.

Just to add Allah swt communicated to humanity in the final revelation (the Quran) and as challenged the disbelievers many times - sadly these challenges have not been met by the disbelievers.

peace

[K.Venugopal]

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have for you Islam as your religion...

Can you please tell me which day is being referred to?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslaamu`Alaaykum
Yes I believe Islaam is the true Religion infact its more of a way of Life
Quraan is the only book that is the same since day 1 and the creator speaks to his creation and there is only Benefit from the teachings of the Qur`aan! Everything in the Quraan is perfect, and would it not be when its from the Creator and has proved the falsesness of false belief.

Wa`Alaaykum Salaam

[Zafran]

Can you please tell me which day is being referred to?

Near the end of the prophet muhammads (pbuh) life when the verse was revealed.

[Pygoscelis]

Yes it is - which is the sumbission to the will of God on God's terms and not our own.

Yes, authoritarianism turned into a religion. Obedience to power (ultimate power) equated with "good". Obedience equated with "good" is not unique to Islam though. It is a theme running all through each of the abrahamic religions. The bible is story after story of obedience tests, and in more than one case obedience goes up against what we would otherwise perceive as good and obedience is always the "right" choice. Abraham is ready to kill his child (very wrong in any other setting) on command. The first of the ten commandments and half of the others are about obeying. Adam and Eve are forbidden the fruit of knowledge of good and evil - and that they disobey is how original sin is born. Before they ate of this fruit though they obviously had no concept of good and evil so they couldn't have known if it is good to obey God. There are a dozen other stories that make the same point.

Is Hinduism this way? Do hindus equate obedience with morality?

[Zafran]

Yes, authoritarianism turned into a religion. Obedience to power (ultimate power) equated with "good".

what do you mean eqauted whith "good"???

[K.Venugopal]

Near the end of the prophet muhammads (pbuh) life when the verse was revealed.

Muslim Woman in post no. 3 refers to a verse by Jacob wherein Jacob talks about the true religion. Obviously, this religion which was given to Jacob was not perfect yet because that had to await Mohammad's life time. Please throw light on this.

[Zafran]

Muslim Woman in post no. 3 refers to a verse by Jacob wherein Jacob talks about the true religion. Obviously, this religion which was given to Jacob was not perfect yet because that had to await Mohammad's life time. Please throw light on this.

That verse talking about the time of Jacob (pbuh) is for the people at the time of Jacob (pbuh) - the perfect your religion verse is talking to the last muslim Ummah in the time of the prophet (pbuh) until the end of time. The religion of Jacob pbuh and prophet Muhammad pbuh is the same which is submission to the will of God.

[K.Venugopal]

Is Hinduism this way? Do hindus equate obedience with morality?

Whatever specific Hindu religions may teach about obedience, there has always been an overriding tradition in Hinduism giving individuals the freedom to set one's own path towards one's goal. The only condition was that such a path should not cause Adharma or disharmony in society. Since sometimes the definition of Dharma gets blurred, the standing promise in some Hindu religions is that God would intervene to set things right. Some religions in Hinduism do not believe in a creator God, so the question of obedience to an external religious authority or proving of loyalty etc. does not arise for them.

I would here warn you (not in an authoritarian way!) that any question about Hinduism could often elicit many and contradictory answers. They say what is true in Hinduism, the opposite is also true. Maybe Hinduism has come to be this way because it is an exceedingly ancient religious tradition. Morality has the highest value in Hinduism, but such morality may not be based on temporal values but on the eternal verities.

[Pygoscelis]

what do you mean eqauted whith "good"???

I mean exactly that, equated with good. Obedience to God's commandments is thought of as good. It is inconceivable in this framework that God could do or wish something evil because God's word and wishes are equated with good, and obedience to this is thus also equated with good.

Morality in the context of Islam, Christianity or Judaism is based on submission and obedience to God (the ultimate authority figure).

As it is polytheistic, I'm wondering if the above is also the case within Hinduism. Is the Hindu sense of morality separate from obedience to Hindu gods? Would a Hindu say a Hindu God could wish or do evil?

Edited to add: Venugopal posted the above post as I was writing this one and it answers this one to some degree. :)

[K.Venugopal]

Would a Hindu say a Hindu God could wish or do evil?

Hindus seeing things at the dual level, like all dual religions, would see no wrong in their Gods. A seemingly evil act of God, they would say, would get reconciled in the long term as events unfold. Hindus with a non-dual understanding see the oneness of existence and would tend to say that good and evil is a dichotomy caused by a fragmented mind. When the mind becomes wholesome, they say, one becomes free of all dichotomies and perfection ensues.

[Abdul-Raouf]

In hinduism...when will a human need to face his judgement and when will he/she be rewarded or punished ...by God....???

when does an individual's (human/soul) chapter close??

[K.Venugopal]

In hinduism...when will a human need to face his judgement and when will he/she be rewarded or punished ...by God....???when does an individual's (human/soul) chapter close??

To the best of my understanding, Hinduism does not talk about a scenario like described in Last Judgement of the Abrahamic religions. Instead it talks about the law of Karma, which is the principle of cause and effect - as you sow, so you shall reap. The result of our actions may be immediate, over a period of time in the same lifetime or over many lifetimes. Individuals like you and me are identified through our body. But the essence of both of us, called souls, are essentially one but keep appearing in different forms on account of the law of karma. When one frees oneself from the chain of karma, then one becomes free, no longer needing to be embodied in this phase of the drama of life. But the drama of life goes on eternally and perchance we may embody again, when the whole cycle of the current drama, lasting aeons, end and start again. Please do not ask me to give data of these - only the scholars would know and I am no scholar.

[K.Venugopal]

Why is PBUH always said when Mohammad's name is mentioned?

[Misz_Muslimah]

Why is PBUH always said when Mohammad's name is mentioned?

Peace be upon him is a phrase that practising Muslims say after saying (or hearing) the name of a prophet of Islam.

In the translation of the meanings of the Qur'an in Surah 33 entitled Al-Ahzab (The Confederates), ayah (verse) 56:
33:56. Allâh sends His Salât (Graces, Honours, Blessings, Mercy, etc.) on the Prophet (Muhammad SAW) and also His angels too (ask Allâh to bless and forgive him). O you who believe! Send your Salât on (ask Allâh to bless) him (Muhammad SAW), and (you should) greet (salute) him with the Islâmic way of greeting (salutation i.e. As Salâmu 'Alaikum).

[nousername]

Why is Hinduism only for desis? I've heard it's almost impossible for a non-desi to convert

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Why is Hinduism only for desis? I've heard it's almost impossible for a non-desi to convert

Actually sistah you`d be shocked to know that there are also non-desi Hindus , am sure you will find many on Youtube (The obvious place), converts to Hinduism!

[marwen]

I want to learn something : What are the sources of Hinduism ? Where did these ideas (karma, multi-lives, embodying, etc...) come from ?
Is there any scriptures where Hindus learn these ideas. And these scripture who made them ?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Well i think the Hindu Scripture is called the "Geeta", correct me if im wrong

But according to Shiekh Zakir Naiks lecture, Our Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the Geeta, and also some rules on dress code, what to eat, covering of head (for women) etc. , Hindus believe in many Gods, and they are all mostly idols or humans as far as my knowledge goes, but im sure someone knowledgeable will be able to help inshaAllaah.

[bhakti]

There are a lot of holy books in Hinduism. However, the contention is that books are often very open to misinterpretation and can lead to very differing opinions. Therefore stress is places more on the Guru-student passing down of knowledge rather than relying on books for knowledge.

I would suggest watching the videos of this youtube channel for a quick overall idea of Hinduism: youtube.com/user/HinduStudies


Cheers!

[Zafran]

the vedes are meant to be the top sources

[Insecured soul]

Keep your questions about hinduism/islam limited to this thread

as far as the subject goes im ok by it but dont make subject line such as islam VS..... so and so

there is no such thing as VS in front of islam, other religion do not even qualify for a fight becoz islam is the haq

hope i got my point across insha allah

as far as this thread goes, i do not believe in idol worship becoz the idols they create with thier own hands, they cannot even sustain themselves how can they sustain us? this is enuf for me to desbelieve in hindiusm or be it any idol worshipping religion

salaam alaikum

[Abdul-Raouf]

To the best of my understanding, Hinduism does not talk about a scenario like described in Last Judgement of the Abrahamic religions. Instead it talks about the law of Karma, which is the principle of cause and effect - as you sow, so you shall reap. The result of our actions may be immediate, over a period of time in the same lifetime or over many lifetimes. Individuals like you and me are identified through our body. But the essence of both of us, called souls, are essentially one but keep appearing in different forms on account of the law of karma. When one frees oneself from the chain of karma, then one becomes free, no longer needing to be embodied in this phase of the drama of life. But the drama of life goes on eternally and perchance we may embody again, when the whole cycle of the current drama, lasting aeons, end and start again. Please do not ask me to give data of these - only the scholars would know and I am no scholar.

ok .... how about suicide... does it end this chain/cycle in anyway...?
Is suicide an advantage or disadvantage...in hinduism..in case if a hindu dont like the current life..can he end it and start again...any possibility of that...??

[bhakti]

ok .... how about suicide... does it end this chain/cycle in anyway...?
Is suicide an advantage or disadvantage...in hinduism..in case if a hindu dont like the current life..can he end it and start again...any possibility of that...??

nope...suicide is frowned upon and is considered as good as murder...which means there's only added karma burden on you...a far cry away from releasing the burden of karma

[أحمد]

as far as the subject goes im ok by it but dont make subject line such as islam VS..... so and so

there is no such thing as VS in front of islam, other religion do not even qualify for a fight becoz islam is the haq

hope i got my point across insha allah

as far as this thread goes, i do not believe in idol worship becoz the idols they create with thier own hands, they cannot even sustain themselves how can they sustain us? this is enuf for me to desbelieve in hindiusm or be it any idol worshipping religion

salaam alaikum

:sl:

You are right; this shouldn't be about Hinduism VS Islam, as there's very little or no comparison between the two. Islam is a religion of monotheism, while Hinduism is based more on mythology and material philosophy.

:wa:

[K.Venugopal]

Why is Hinduism only for desis? I've heard it's almost impossible for a non-desi to convert

Hinduism is for anyone who wishes to follow its teachings. Have you not seen American and European Krishna disciples dance on their streets during festivals?

[K.Venugopal]

I want to learn something : What are the sources of Hinduism ? Where did these ideas (karma, multi-lives, embodying, etc...) come from ? Is there any scriptures where Hindus learn these ideas. And these scripture who made them ?

The basic source of all Hinduism is the expression of self-realized men. (By self-realized I mean those who have discovered the truth of themselves.) Many of these expressions have been collected in scriptures collectively called the Vedas and they are considered as the basic reference on Hindu insights. Apart from the Vedas there are innumerable other scriptures. However, Hinduism does not have the concept of an end to scripture making. So long as man lives, he would continue to be creative and innovative in expressing the great truths of existence and therefore more scriptures would ensue in the future.

[K.Venugopal]

Well i think the Hindu Scripture is called the "Geeta", correct me if im wrong But according to Shiekh Zakir Naiks lecture, Our Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in the Geeta, and also some rules on dress code, what to eat, covering of head (for women) etc. , Hindus believe in many Gods, and they are all mostly idols or humans as far as my knowledge goes, but im sure someone knowledgeable will be able to help inshaAllaah.

The Geeta (fully called Bhagavad Geeta - also spelt Gita) is only one of the many scriptures in Hinduism. The Geeta, made up of 700 verses, is itself part of an epic called Mahabharat made up of 100,000 verses. I don't think Zakir Naik said the Geeta mentioned Mohammad, though he did say that another scripture mentioned him. All the Hindu scriptures taken together would contain all sorts of injunctions and rules that it would sometimes seem bewildering. Hindus of course always have had the choice of what to accept and what to reject, though sometimes social circumstances and conventions may have forced the populace to stick to certain norms. But such forced norms never lasted long. Social reformers have always appeared to refresh the choices that are considered Hindu heritage.

Hindus may seem to believe in many Gods, but the ultimate teachings say that these Gods are all only different expressions of the oneness of existence. The divine in Hinduism is expressed in many ways, including through idols and in acceptance of beings who are believed to be God come down in human or other forms.

[K.Venugopal]

as far as the subject goes im ok by it but dont make subject line such as islam VS..... so and so there is no such thing as VS in front of islam, other religion do not even qualify for a fight becoz islam is the haq hope i got my point across insha allah

I also do not believe in this versus thing but for a different reason. I believe all religions are aspirations towards the same truth so they are all one way or the other complementary.

as far as this thread goes, i do not believe in idol worship becoz the idols they create with thier own hands, they cannot even sustain themselves how can they sustain us? this is enuf for me to desbelieve in hindiusm or be it any idol worshipping religion salaam alaikum

I might surprise you but there are many religions in Hinduism which do not believe in idol worship.

I have often heard Muslims say we should not worship idols because the idols are created by us and the idols can neither help nor destroy us. Not for the sake or arguing but just for the sake of having you think on the subject, may I ask if Allah can either help or destroy us? How do you know that Allah is not a concept man came up with? Mind you, I am not questioning your believe in Allah or anything like that. I am only asking you to give me proof that Allah has any more power than the idols Hindus believe in have.

[Zafran]

I also do not believe in this versus thing but for a different reason. I believe all religions are aspirations towards the same truth so they are all one way or the other complementary.

I might surprise you but there are many religions in Hinduism which do not believe in idol worship.

I have often heard Muslims say we should not worship idols because the idols are created by us and the idols can neither help nor destroy us. Not for the sake or arguing but just for the sake of having you think on the subject, may I ask if Allah can either help or destroy us? How do you know that Allah is not a concept man came up with? Mind you, I am not questioning your believe in Allah or anything like that. I am only asking you to give me proof that Allah has any more power than the idols Hindus believe in have.

1 - all relgions preety much teach different things - it doesnt work to say they are all going for one truth.

The case here is that how can you prove that God doesnt help or destroy us? we know that Idols dont - you make them and they sit there all day - we can see that happening.

With the idols they dont do much - maybe help you worship what you want to but thats about it. With God there are some serious warnings out there its up to the individual to accept them or not.

Heres another thing your idols can be destroyed - With God you cant actually do that. The Idols cant even move themselves. You have to pick them up so you can actually move them.

[K.Venugopal]

ok .... how about suicide... does it end this chain/cycle in anyway...?
Is suicide an advantage or disadvantage...in hinduism..in case if a hindu dont like the current life..can he end it and start again...any possibility of that...??

One attains to freedom only in understanding. Suicide is a result of failure to confront life and therefore, according to those who believe in rebirths, such people would have to live again and succeed in living, not fail. People commit suicide because they do not like their circumstances in the current life. Everybody goes through suicide in the hope that the consequences would be better for him or her. Whether it actually is would probably depend on the entirety of the life he or she lived till the moment of suicide.

[K.Venugopal]

all relgions preety much teach different things - it doesnt work to say they are all going for one truth.

We will agree to disagree on this one.

The case here is that how can you prove that God doesnt help or destroy us?

How can you prove that the idols do not help or destroy us? Do you think the power of the idol is confined to the idol? If it is a Shiva idol, do you think that the power of Shiva is confined to the idol?

we know that Idols dont - you make them and they sit there all day - we can see that happening. With the idols they dont do much - maybe help you worship what you want to but thats about it. Heres another thing your idols can be destroyed - With God you cant actually do that. The Idols cant even move themselves. You have to pick them up so you can actually move them

One thing you have missed about Hindu idols is that they have a power that is not restricted to the idol. Take an idol of Krishna in a temple. Is Krishna destroyed if you destroy the idol? So when we pray to the idol of Krishna, whom are we actually praying to? Do you think there is an idol in Hinduism that is not linked to a power that is beyond the idol? Therefore by destroying the idols you do not destroy God. Idols sitting in one place all day long is natural because that is the nature of a thing made of concrete or wood.

With God there are some serious warnings out there its up to the individual to accept them or not.

That God exists is not a fact but only a believe, no less or more than the believe of idol worshippers that their idols represent God.

[Zafran]

How can you prove that the idols do not help or destroy us? Do you think the power of the idol is confined to the idol? If it is a Shiva idol, do you think that the power of Shiva is confined to the idol?

Or do we help the idol and can destroy the idol - The idol clearly needs our help more then we need its - we need to clean it - we need to move it. The power of shiva clearly needs the Idol if it didnt then there would be no need to praying to the idol?

One thing you have missed about Hindu idols is that they have a power that is not restricted to the idol. Take an idol of Krishna in a temple. Is Krishna destroyed if you destroy the idol? So when we pray to the idol of Krishna, whom are we actually praying to? Do you think there is an idol in Hinduism that is not linked to a power that is beyond the idol? Therefore by destroying the idols you do not destroy God. Idols sitting in one place all day long is natural because that is the nature of a thing made of concrete or wood.

That God exists is not a fact but only a believe, no less or more than the believe of idol worshippers that their idols represent God.

do you worhip God or the idol? if you dont need the idol then why worship at all? How do you know that the idol represents God?

The main point here is that the idol is different from God - God cannot be destroyed - the idol can - God does not need our help it not depended on us - the idol is -

From all these points it does not seem that an idol is a good representation of God.

so you agree the idol has no power at all. If it doesnt whats the point of it?? should we not worship the main thing rather then an idol.

[bhakti]

if you dont need the idol then why worship at all? How do you know that the idol represents God?

The main point here is that the idol is different from God - God cannot be destroyed - the idol can - God does not need our help it not depended on us - the idol is -

From all these points it does not seem that an idol is a good representation of God.

so you agree the idol has no power at all. If it doesnt whats the point of it?? should we not worship the main thing rather then an idol.

May I ask you two questions?

1) There are many in this forum who have signatures, avatars etc. of 'Allah' written in Arabic. What purpose does this serve?

2) When you pray to Allah, how do you know your prayers are reaching Allah? Do you think Allah listens to you because you are calling out his name or do you think he is listening to you coz he understands and appreciates the emotion/devotion/sincerity in your worship?

[Zafran]

May I ask you two questions?

1) There are many in this forum who have signatures, avatars etc. of 'Allah' written in Arabic. What purpose does this serve?

2) When you pray to Allah, how do you know your prayers are reaching Allah? Do you think Allah listens to you because you are calling out his name or do you think he is listening to you coz he understands and appreciates the emotion/devotion/sincerity in your worship?

1 - Its an avatar and I liked it. Many people have different avatars.

2 - We believe that Allah swt has given man a criteria - if you accept that criteria then your prayers are heard. Its not only that but Allah swt sent messeges to guide his people - the last messenger was prophet Muhammad pbuh to guide us back to the right path.

however I like to bring this back to the Idols. By the way before we go on to this I would like to know what Hindus believe about God - Is God all powerful, all knowing? absolutly Independent? according to hindus?

[bhakti]

The case here is that how can you prove that God doesnt help or destroy us? we know that Idols dont - you make them and they sit there all day - we can see that happening.

for the sake of argument, let us say I abuse Allah and the Prophet with the choicest of words. Are you saying Allah will strike me down rightaway? (btw I will never abuse. This is only for the sake of argument)

I think it's pretty obvious that wont happen. Is that to say that Allah is powerless?

[bhakti]

1 - Its an avatar and I liked it. Many people have different avatars.

Let us say you are engrossed in some daily material chore of yours. You take a break from the chore you are performing and look up and you see 'Allah' written in front of you. Is it not true that the mere sight of this word instantly makes you think of Allah and instantly tunes you to a spiritual level of 'Allah consciousness'? You forget the chore you are performing for a few moments and spend it thinking of Allah. If this word of 'Allah' weren't in front of you when you looked up, you would have never thought of Allah and would have just continued with your work.

2 - We believe that Allah swt has given man a criteria - if you accept that criteria then your prayers are heard. Its not only that but Allah swt sent messeges to guide his people - the last messenger was prophet Muhammad pbuh to guide us back to the right path.

oh...I've not heard of this and would like to know more. Would be nice if you tell me what the criteria are.

also...if I follow all the criteria but have no feeling in my heart, would such a prayer suffice?

[Zafran]

for the sake of argument, let us say I abuse Allah and the Prophet with the choicest of words. Are you saying Allah will strike me down rightaway? (btw I will never abuse. This is only for the sake of argument)

I think it's pretty obvious that wont happen. Is that to say that Allah is powerless?

You cant strike or abuse the prophet pbuh or Allah swt - by trying to do so you only abuse your self according to the criteria which is the Quran. Furthermore if somebody does destroy your idol then they are destroyed - without a human repairing it will be broken. They are dependent on humans. They cant even move to point A to B without a human - they need to be cleaned by a human as well. They are powerless. But what I would like to know is what do you think of God - Is God all powerful, absolutly independent, all knowing? what do hindus think of God? which will also help us understand the Idols and your view on them.

Let us say you are engrossed in some daily material chore of yours. You take a break from the chore you are performing and look up and you see 'Allah' written in front of you. Is it not true that the mere sight of this word instantly makes you think of Allah and instantly tunes you to a spiritual level of 'Allah consciousness'? You forget the chore you are performing for a few moments and spend it thinking of Allah. If this word of 'Allah' weren't in front of you when you looked up, you would have never thought of Allah and would have just continued with your work.

Not true many muslims try to think of God constantly like most God believers - with or without God's name. Its called zikr.

oh...I've not heard of this and would like to know more. Would be nice if you tell me what the criteria are.

also...if I follow all the criteria but have no feeling in my heart, would such a prayer suffice?

The criteria is the Quran. To follow it one has to believe in it.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

1) There are many in this forum who have signatures, avatars etc. of 'Allah' written in Arabic. What purpose does this serve??

Its just simply an avatar. sometimes when theres a post, we can sometimes identify by the avatar who this person posting is just by looking at their avatar although you can do that by the username too.

2) When you pray to Allah, how do you know your prayers are reaching Allah? Do you think Allah listens to you because you are calling out his name or do you think he is listening to you coz he understands and appreciates the emotion/devotion/sincerity in your worship?

Allaah your lord and my lord says in the Quraan :"And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright. "[ Surah Al Baqarah (The Cow),and verse 186]

Allaah understands us no matter how we feel, and he knows how sincere we are in worship!

[espada]

A few questions for our Hindu brothers:



How important is intention in Hinduism?

When you do an act, whom is it you intend to do it for?

Is there something similar to the Basmala in Hinduism?

Is Hinduism even the correct term to be using, or is there a more preferred term?

Sorry, i'm not very knowledgeable.

Thank you in advance.

[K.Venugopal]

Or do we help the idol and can destroy the idol - The idol clearly needs our help more then we need its - we need to clean it - we need to move it.

Because the concept of idol worship appears difficult for you to grasp, may I try giving an example. By destroying the Quran (as some people propose to burn it on 9/11), is anything substantial destroyed thereby? Or maybe something more than substantial is destroyed thereby – our emotions that go with it. We need the idol and therefore we have made the idol. The idol did not make itself. Just as the Quran in book form.

The power of shiva clearly needs the Idol if it didnt then there would be no need to praying to the idol?

The power of Shiva is beyond the idol (that is, it is not confined to the idol). Though Allah is not confined in the direction of Mecca, why do Muslims confine their worship of Him in that direction? Is this due to the limitation of Allah or Muslims?

do you worhip God or the idol? if you dont need the idol then why worship at all? How do you know that the idol represents God?

Idols are worshipped in the believe that God is thereby worshipped. Those who do not need idols to worship are not forced to have them. (Islam, for example, does not need these concrete idols.) And then there are those who do not need to worship at all because they have discovered God within them (Islam has not reached this level). Whether the idol represents God or not is the faith or belief of the worshipper, just as Allah is God is the faith of the Muslim worshipper.

The main point here is that the idol is different from God - God cannot be destroyed - the idol can - God does not need our help it not depended on us - the idol is –

OK.

From all these points it does not seem that an idol is a good representation of God.

Idol is useful for those who require them. When you worship something that is outside you, that is idol worship. Therefore, Islam is also idol worship.

so you agree the idol has no power at all. If it doesnt whats the point of it??

Whether idol has power or not is a matter of experience. Many people have stated that idols have power. What are we to say of that?

should we not worship the main thing rather then an idol.

And pray, what is the main thing? What you consider the main thing may not be the main thing for others. Got it?

[K.Venugopal]

I would like to know what Hindus believe about God - Is God all powerful, all knowing? absolutly Independent? according to hindus?

Hindus believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Of these, Muslims only believe that God is Omnipotent and Omniscient but not Omnipresent.

[Zafran]

Because the concept of idol worship appears difficult for you to grasp, may I try giving an example. By destroying the Quran (as some people propose to burn it on 9/11), is anything substantial destroyed thereby? Or maybe something more than substantial is destroyed thereby – our emotions that go with it. We need the idol and therefore we have made the idol. The idol did not make itself. Just as the Quran in book form.

this doesnt make sense at all - you just made the idol - then you destroy it and then its gone. Burning some book doesnt mean the Quran is burned or destroyed it still exists without the book form.

The power of Shiva is beyond the idol (that is, it is not confined to the idol). Though Allah is not confined in the direction of Mecca, why do Muslims confine their worship of Him in that direction? Is this due to the limitation of Allah or Muslims?

The kabba is a direction of prayer or a compass - if the kabba was to be destroyed tommorrow - we will still worship God. Its also a sign of unity for the muslim Ummah. The idol is none of those things - if it breaks you just buy a new one.

Idol is useful for those who require them. When you worship something that is outside you, that is idol worship. Therefore, Islam is also idol worship.

how is it? - If the Kabba was destroyed in the future Muslims will still pray to God - For the idol worshpper he will need to buy a new one. Another thing is we worship God directly whilst the idol worhipper worships a contradiction of God as God is all powerful and the idols are not.

Whether idol has power or not is a matter of experience. Many people have stated that idols have power. What are we to say of that?

Idols have no power to clean themselves - they have no power to move - they dont have even power to come to life? If they cant help themselves how can they help the person - thats what you can say.

[Zafran]

Hindus believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Of these, Muslims only believe that God is Omnipotent and Omniscient but not Omnipresent.

Thanks so idols which are non of those things can not be an accurate representation of God - they are not all knowing and they are not all powerful. They also are not everywhere. Its preety much a contradiction of God.

[K.Venugopal]

Allaah your lord and my lord…

If you used the phrase “your lord” to mean lord of non-Muslims also, I think it is unfair. I for one do not consider Allah, as described in the Quran, as my God or lord.

[K.Venugopal]

How important is intention in Hinduism?

In Hinduism, intention is everything. The merit of an action is considered on the basis of the intention of the doer. For example, I might be seen giving a bar of chocolate to a child and someone, without knowing my true motive, may comment that I have done a good thing. By if my intention was to befriend the child and kidnap him, then the very act of giving the chocolate is bad, let alone my kidnapping the child.

When you do an act, whom is it you intend to do it for?

I have not understood this question.

Is there something similar to the Basmala in Hinduism? Is Hinduism even the correct term to be using, or is there a more preferred term?

Please explain what you mean by “Basmala” so that I may comment on it.

[Muslimeen]

What is the significance of cows in Hinduism??

[marwen]

If you used the phrase “your lord” to mean lord of non-Muslims also, I think it is unfair. I for one do not consider Allah, as described in the Quran, as my God or lord.

Your Lord means your creator and therefore the One who deserves worship and fellowship. If you don't believe in Allah or you don't want to worship him he still remains your God or Lord, your vision doesn't change the fact.

What is the significance of cows in Hinduism??

Yes I want to know about that too, and I want also to know if there is an opinion about vegetarianism in Hinduism.

[K.Venugopal]

What is the significance of cows in Hinduism??

The special bond between the cow and the Hindu community goes back to the pastoral days, when cows had a significant role with being the providers of milk, fuel (cow dung), medicines (cow urine) etc. and therefore had a place of fondness in the hearts of the Hindus. Somewhere along the line it became associated with Krishna and Krishna's divinity appears to have rubbed off on the cows and they have since been treated as an auspicious animal. But apart from these aspects (which are by no means insignificant) I do not think other living beings are any less sacred than the cows. It is actually the culture and the nature of Hindus to associate divinity to anything that appears to play a significant role in their lives and they often sanctify such relationships by seeing the object in the nature of Mother. Which is why they call the cow Mother cow, their most sacred river Mother Ganga - why, they even call India Mother India.

[K.Venugopal]

Your Lord means your creator and therefore the One who deserves worship and fellowship. If you don't believe in Allah or you don't want to worship him he still remains your God or Lord, your vision doesn't change the fact.

That Allah is God is only a belief. It is not a fact, like say the sun or the moon. They (sun and moon) are there whether we accept it or not and their effects are felt by all humans. Please do not assign the position of fact to beliefs.

I want also to know if there is an opinion about vegetarianism in Hinduism.

The majority of Hindus are non-vegetarians. Vegetarianism is followed by many cutting across community lines but there are certain communities among Hindus who are exclusively vegetarian. On auspicious or holy days, most Hindus tend to partake only vegetarian food.

[K.Venugopal]

Thanks so idols which are non of those things can not be an accurate representation of God - they are not all knowing and they are not all powerful. They also are not everywhere. Its preety much a contradiction of God.

Idols are only a limited representation of the unlimited for the limited mind. When the mind, through spiritual practices moves to unlimitedness, then it no longer requires idols. Do you think Allah is contained or limited to his name Allah?

[K.Venugopal]

this doesnt make sense at all - you just made the idol - then you destroy it and then its gone. Burning some book doesnt mean the Quran is burned or destroyed it still exists without the book form.

Hindus do not find it difficult to remake idols that are destroyed. They do it all the time.

The kabba is a direction of prayer or a compass - if the kabba was to be destroyed tommorrow - we will still worship God. Its also a sign of unity for the muslim Ummah. The idol is none of those things - if it breaks you just buy a new one.

The question is, why do you limit God to a direction and worship Him? Similarly, Hindus limit God to a idol and worship Him.

how is it? - If the Kabba was destroyed in the future Muslims will still pray to God - For the idol worshpper he will need to buy a new one. Another thing is we worship God directly whilst the idol worhipper worships a contradiction of God as God is all powerful and the idols are not.

That you worship Allah directly is only a myth. How can you worship Allah if you do not use His name Allah? Allah is only a word, though Muslims believe that He is much much more than a word.

Idols have no power to clean themselves - they have no power to move - they dont have even power to come to life? If they cant help themselves how can they help the person - thats what you can say.

Just like you believe Allah has powers, idol-worshippers believe that their idols have powers - because they believe that that power is not limited to the idol. Can you prove that Allah has power (apart from your belief)?

[marwen]

That Allah is God is only a belief. It is not a fact, like say the sun or the moon. They (sun and moon) are there whether we accept it or not and their effects are felt by all humans. Please do not assign the position of fact to beliefs.

What makes the moon a fact and Allah not ? because you see it ? What makes you think that everything you see is true i.e a fact, and everything you don't see is not a fact ?

The majority of Hindus are non-vegetarians. Vegetarianism is followed by many cutting across community lines but there are certain communities among Hindus who are exclusively vegetarian. On auspicious or holy days, most Hindus tend to partake only vegetarian food.

For the vegetarian Hindu communities, what are their reasons for being vegetarian, is that because they feel guilty to kill animals ?

[Predator]

Take an idol of Krishna in a temple. Is Krishna destroyed if you destroy the idol? So when we pray to the idol of Krishna, whom are we actually praying to?

I cant understand how the hell could a perverted man like Krishna ever qualify to be an avatar , Prophet or an idol of God ? Krishna has done a despicable thing.

The bhagwad mentions that while a group of young women known as gopis are bathing naked in the river yamuna, krishna runs away with their clothes and thus forces them to come out of the river nude. When the gopis emerge from the water bashfully hiding their sexual organs with their hands, krishna tells them that since they have offended the water god by bathing naked, they should ask for his forgiveness with their hands raised in salutation to him, and then they can take back their clothes. In this context the bhagwad says that krishna deceitfully made them expose their sexual organs to him, and that he was very pleased to see them in their virgin state

Is this the kind of example he wants to set as a God ?

[Insaanah]

That Allah is God is only a belief. It is not a fact, like say the sun or the moon. They (sun and moon) are there whether we accept it or not and their effects are felt by all humans. Please do not assign the position of fact to beliefs.

It is possible that in Hinduism, belief and fact cannot go hand in hand. In Islam however, they do.

Allah is your Lord and Creator, and the Creator of the Sun and Moon, and that is a fact. Whether you choose to accept that fact or not makes no difference to the truth of the fact.

"And He who made the night for rest and sun and moon for reckoning of time. This is the decree of the Exalted, the All-knowing." (6:96)

"Allah is He, who created the sun, the moon, and the stars (all) governed by laws under His commandment." (7:54)

"It is He who made sun a lamp, and moon a light and measured stages so you know number of years and count (of time)." (10:5)

You can use the search function and put in "prove Allah exists" and the like, the subject has been dealt with many times before and you can read all about it.

Peace.

[Trumble]

Allah is your Lord and Creator, and the Creator of the Sun and Moon, and that is a fact. Whether you choose to accept that fact or not makes no difference to the truth of the fact.

No, it is what you believe to be a fact, and in the absence of any empirical or logical proof whatsoever that means that it is only a belief, and not a fact. My belief is that no such entity exists other than a figment of the collective human imagination, something for which there is also no empirical or logical proof!

You can use the search function and put in "prove Allah exists" and the like, the subject has been dealt with many times before and you can read all about it.

You mean read about the same old arguments (both ways) that have been floating about for hundreds or even thousands of years 'proving' absolutely nothing?

[Insaanah]

No, it is what you believe to be a fact, and in the absence of any empirical or logical proof whatsoever that means that it is only a belief, and not a fact.

As I said you are free to your beliefs. It doesn't, however change the fact.

My belief is that no such entity exists other than a figment of the collective human imagination, something for which there is also no empirical or logical proof!

As I said, you are free to believe that.

The very fact that we are here is enough proof, that the world is here is proof. I see proof of Allah's existence all around me.

You mean read about the same old arguments (both ways) that have been floating about for hundreds or even thousands of years 'proving' absolutely nothing?

No. I mean some of the brilliant posts by Muslims drawing people's attention to prrofs of Allah's existence, for anyone who may be interested in seeing them and learning.

Peace.

[Trumble]

No. I mean some of the brilliant posts by Muslims drawing people's attention to prrofs of Allah's existence..

Ah then, so you DO mean the same tired old arguments that have been floating about for hundreds or even thousands of years 'proving' absolutely nothing. Presented in suitably one sided fashion to an audience that already accepts their 'conclusions' as fact, of course!

Anyway, enough of that off-topicness, which I know I started. This is supposed to be about Hinduism.

[Zafran]

Hindus do not find it difficult to remake idols that are destroyed. They do it all the time.

can the absoulte be destroyed? Does God need replacing? The Idol does but God does not as God is all powerful. Why would the one that is all powerful need replacing?

That you worship Allah directly is only a myth. How can you worship Allah if you do not use His name Allah? Allah is only a word, though Muslims believe that He is much much more than a word.

Allah swt is the all powerful God that we both agree God is - the idols are not so they are not an accurate representation of God.

Just like you believe Allah has powers, idol-worshippers believe that their idols have powers - because they believe that that power is not limited to the idol. Can you prove that Allah has power (apart from your belief)?

We Both agree that God is all powerful - from here we can see that Idol cannot be a true representation of God as it is not all powerul - for example it is dependent on humans - whilst God the all powerful is not. The idol is a total contradcition of the all powerful.

Idols are only a limited representation of the unlimited for the limited mind. When the mind, through spiritual practices moves to unlimitedness, then it no longer requires idols. Do you think Allah is contained or limited to his name Allah?

Allah is not contained anywhere not in his name as that would contradcit the all power - the huge difference here is that your defending that idols have power and not any sort of power but the power of God - This cannot be true as the Idols are not all powerful whilst we both agree that God is. This does not require any radical spiritual path as I am sure anyone could see that the idols are not all powerful.

[Insaanah]

Hindus believe that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent. Of these, Muslims only believe that God is Omnipotent and Omniscient but not Omnipresent.

He has knowledge of everything but is not physically everywhere. Allah is above the heavens, separate from the creation but among His creation by His being All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and All-Knowing.

Hindus do not find it difficult to remake idols that are destroyed. They do it all the time.

Shame they can't re-make themselves. They need a human to make them.

The question is, why do you limit God to a direction and worship Him? Similarly, Hindus limit God to a idol and worship Him.

We do not limit God. The simple reason we pray facing towards Masjid al Haraam in Makkah is because it is the command of Allah, our Creator, Whom we worship, and NOT because he is physically in that direction. It is a great unifier for Muslims all over the globe.

That you worship Allah directly is only a myth. How can you worship Allah if you do not use His name Allah?

We worship Allah directly. No third party, no intermediary, no obstacle. Direct worship of our Lord and Creator. And we use his name to begin the prayer, saying, "Allahu Akbar", i.e. Allah is the Greatest, then we start, "Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds". We've used His Glorious name twice within a few seconds, and we carry on using it during the prayer. Later on we say, "You Alone we worship, and You Alone we ask for help". I don't know where you got the idea that we worship Him without using His name.

Just like you believe Allah has powers, idol-worshippers believe that their idols have powers - because they believe that that power is not limited to the idol.

See my first post above. It's strange that if the idols have power that isn't limited to them, that they can be actually be destroyed, and once destroyed, they can't remake themselves unless a human makes them. That doesn't sound too powerful to me.

Can you prove that Allah has power (apart from your belief)?

Yes. He had the power to create this world and all of us. We didn't just random cells come together. The perfect functioning of the sun and moon, the natural phenomena described in the Qur'an some of which have only been scientifically "discovered" relatively recently in the worlds history - that is nothing but the work of an All-Powerful Allah.

Peace.

[K.Venugopal]

What makes the moon a fact and Allah not ? because you see it ? What makes you think that everything you see is true i.e a fact, and everything you don't see is not a fact ? I think for understanding what makes the moon a fact and Allah only a belief, we have to first understand the difference between the subjective and the objective. That which is subjective is that which is only in our mind and that which is objective is that which also exists outside our mind. Can you prove Allah exists outside your mind? Do you need proof to determine that the moon exists outside your mind – is that not obvious (though we can think of the moon in our minds)?


For the vegetarian Hindu communities, what are their reasons for being vegetarian, is that because they feel guilty to kill animals

For individuals it is a choice and for communities it is a tradition. Somewhere at the beginning of choosing to be vegetarian, the pioneers may have thought it may be a more cultured way of meeting the most fundamental of man’s need. Or maybe in the beginning all were vegetarians till some moved over to non-vegetarianism, due probably to necessity of circumstances. I am not able to hazard any guesses beyond this.

[Karl]

I remember once seeing some extensive artical trying to claim that Islam was merely "recycled Hinduism", and it was giving all kinds of parallels between the two religions and making connections between figures such as Brahma with Abraham. Has anyone else encountered these sort of claims? I have also heard that Hinduism had its original roots in West Asia rather than South Asia, so perhaps Hinduism has some connections with pre Islamic religion.

[K.Venugopal]

He has knowledge of everything but is not physically everywhere. Allah is above the heavens, separate from the creation but among His creation by His being All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and All-Knowing.

All-Hearing and All-Seeing is equal to All-Knowing. All knowing is Omniscient. That does not make Him Omnipresent. Therefore the description of God in Islam is less than the description of God in Hinduism.

Shame they can't re-make themselves. They need a human to make them.

Why should reality be a shameful thing?

We do not limit God.

You just did that when you limited Him to outside creation or not being one with creation.

The simple reason we pray facing towards Masjid al Haraam in Makkah is because it is the command of Allah, our Creator, Whom we worship, and NOT because he is physically in that direction. It is a great unifier for Muslims all over the globe.

Accepted. But when thinking of the limited idols, please remember that Allah Himself instructed you to approach Him in a specific (limited) manner. This is only natural. We have to be specific to enable us to grasp the universal.

We worship Allah directly. No third party, no intermediary, no obstacle. Direct worship of our Lord and Creator. And we use his name to begin the prayer, saying, "Allahu Akbar", i.e. Allah is the Greatest, then we start, "Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds". We've used His Glorious name twice within a few seconds, and we carry on using it during the prayer. I don't know where you got the idea that we worship Him without using His name.

You misread what I wrote. I said you cannot worship Him without using His name. His name is only a word. And a word is considered a thing. Which means without a thing, word in this case, you cannot worship Allah, i.e., you cannot worship Allah directly.

See my first post above. It's strange that if the idols have power that isn't limited to them, that they can be actually be destroyed, and once destroyed, they can't remake themselves unless a human makes them. That doesn't sound too powerful to me.

Dear Insaan, I think you are assuming that Hindus believe that their Gods are limited to the idols. Not at all. Not only do they believe that their Gods are unlimited, but that they are all one with only the expressions being different. If you throw a stone and break a bulb, would you thereby kill electricity? If a bulb is broken, can’t we easily replace it with another bulb? Pointing out the limitation of idols does not prove that the Hindus worship the limited.

Yes. He had the power to create this world and all of us.

The belief that God created everything is universal. But the belief that that God is named Allah is not universal.

We didn't just random cells come together.

You believe that the creator is outside creation and therefore you need Him to have arranged or willed random cells for creation to come about. Those who do not believe that the creator is outside His creation but is within creation can certainly believe that random cells came together when that which is within everything – life, decided on its course of devolution and evolution.

The perfect functioning of the sun and moon, the natural phenomena described in the Qur'an some of which have only been scientifically "discovered" relatively recently in the worlds history - that is nothing but the work of an All-Powerful God.

That all existence is functioning perfectly is a fact always known to the best of men – it did not have to await the arrival of the Quran to come within the ken of man.

[marwen]

Peace K.Venugopal,

I think for understanding what makes the moon a fact and Allah only a belief, we have to first understand the difference between the subjective and the objective. That which is subjective is that which is only in our mind and that which is objective is that which also exists outside our mind. Can you prove Allah exists outside your mind? Do you need proof to determine that the moon exists outside your mind – is that not obvious (though we can think of the moon in our minds)?

Yes I can prove for someone who never saw the moon that the moon exists : I'll go out with him at night an show him the moon, that's the proof. Yes I can give a proof outside my mind, but the problem is : will he accept my proof ? Imagine I'm showing the moon to a blind person : he won't understand/accept my proof. However for others (who can see) it's a sufficient proof.
The same way, I can give you many proofs that Allah exists. But some people will not see it as a proof, however many others will accept it as a proof : look at the big number of people entering in Islam, do you think they just read the mind of one muslim calling them to islam, or they saw proofs out of his mind and accepted them ?

For individuals it is a choice and for communities it is a tradition. Somewhere at the beginning of choosing to be vegetarian, the pioneers may have thought it may be a more cultured way of meeting the most fundamental of man’s need. Or maybe in the beginning all were vegetarians till some moved over to non-vegetarianism, due probably to necessity of circumstances. I am not able to hazard any guesses beyond this.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.

[bhakti]

alright guys...this is prolly my last post on this forum coz people here are pretty much stuck with their own beliefs and believe they have the license to pass judgements on other faiths without ever having put in even a shred of effort into understanding them. Of course, when someone calls Quran 'political ideology' and 'terrorist propoganda' the response is 'you know nothing about Quran and Islam. Go read the Quran'. The same response to criticism of Hinduism, however, doesn't seem acceptable. Such an attitude can IN NO WAY foster an open mind regardless of whatever you may claim.

Anyway, here's my take on idol worship:

1) When you pray, it is only the sincerity of your devotion that is of utmost importance. If you consider an idol as God and worship it then, essentially, to your mind, you are worshiping God since, to you, the idol is God. As such, God, being able to understand the sincerity of his devotee, knows that in the worshiper's mind he is praying to God and therefore accepts his devotee's prayers. Therefore, irrespective of whether the idol is objectively God or not, the worshiper's subjective knowledge is good enough for his prayers to reach the required destination.

2) So you ask why not pray to God directly? Why an idol at all? Having an idol amplifies devotion by several notches. Would you lik to only think of your little child in your mind or have him right in front of your eyes so you can shower all your love on him? Having your idol in front of you enables you to see God, subjectively, in front of you and thus offer prayers, offer flowers etc. lik as though you are interacting with God directly. And again, since God understands his devotees well he knows the idol means God to his devotee and hence accepts the love the devotee showers on him.

3) After the end of the Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations, the Ganesh idol is submerged in water and destroyed. The next year new idols are made. Wooden deities of Jagannath, Balabhadra, Subhadra and Sudarshan Chakra are submerged and remade every year in the ancient Jagannath Temple of Orissa. Therefore, the idea of idol destruction is not new and infact stands testimony to the fact that idols are not objectively considered as God among Hindus.

4) Someone said 'why doesn't the idol punish me if I destroy it' to which I asked 'why doesnt Allah strike me down if I abuse him'? The reply I got was 'you can't abuse Allah'. This argument seems rather nonsensical coz if I can make Allah the object of my prayers then surely I can make him the object of abuse too? Plus, the Quran expressly lays down punishments for the abusers of Allah which means abuse of Allah should be possible?

These are my arguments and if you are still stuck with your 'idol cant move on its own so its not God' rhetoric then that is you prerogative to do so.

[Zafran]

Bhakti the problem still stands - God is all powerful the idols are not - they cannot be an accuarate representation of God for that very reason. Allah swt is just another word for God - the all powerful. Just by saying its all subjective isnt good enough as it doesnt solve the problem of preety much lying against God which we both believe is all powerful and the idols are not.

Heres another problem is God dependent or independent of humans???

[أحمد]

:sl:

Ah then, so you DO mean the same tired old arguments that have been floating about for hundreds or even thousands of years 'proving' absolutely nothing. Presented in suitably one sided fashion to an audience that already accepts their 'conclusions' as fact, of course!

Anyway, enough of that off-topicness, which I know I started. This is supposed to be about Hinduism.

Proof of existence compared to assumption of non-existence; weigh the case within your own logic. Arguments and counter arguments need a base; in this case the argument against God's existence is a mere assumption.

:wa:

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of Peace to you

Because the concept of idol worship appears difficult for you to grasp, may I try giving an example. By destroying the Quran (as some people propose to burn it on 9/11), is anything substantial destroyed thereby? Or maybe something more than substantial is destroyed thereby – our emotions that go with it. We need the idol and therefore we have made the idol. The idol did not make itself. Just as the Quran in book form.

The Quraan is not destroyed when someone burns it rather the book is, but it is quite insulting to followers that such events take place in this case it is insulting to the Muslims. If your holy book was burnt, would you not feel angry and insulted? You made the Idol and you worship the idol, meaning you created God as you worship the idol in the form of your God. I quote you "Just as the Quran in book form" what do you mean by this statement , we do not worship the book rather we follow the teachings of the book , as its a revelation we muslims believe is from God and not written by man.

The power of Shiva is beyond the idol (that is, it is not confined to the idol). Though Allah is not confined in the direction of Mecca, why do Muslims confine their worship of Him in that direction? Is this due to the limitation of Allah or Muslims??

We muslims face in the directin of Mecca as its a form of Unity, so every Muslim around the whole of this earth and creatures face in that direction during prayer, its called Unity. We are united and all One Ummah!. Nope its not due to limitations, its just the direction we are commanded to face which is one direction for the whole Muslim nation.

Idols are worshipped in the believe that God is thereby worshipped. Those who do not need idols to worship are not forced to have them. (Islam, for example, does not need these concrete idols.) And then there are those who do not need to worship at all because they have discovered God within them (Islam has not reached this level). Whether the idol represents God or not is the faith or belief of the worshipper, just as Allah is God is the faith of the Muslim worshipper.?

Idols are worshipped in the form of God. God is everywhere, why do you need idols? what part of accepting your prayer will the rock do? You are giving God forms of different animals, human etc. The Islamic belief is there is only one God, and he does not need to be worshipped in forms on different images, God is our Lord allmighty and i am sure you believe that also.

Idol is useful for those who require them. When you worship something that is outside you, that is idol worship. Therefore, Islam is also idol worship.?

Then that is just your own opinion, i quote you |"Idol is useful for those who require them" do you have any source of authentic reference if not thats just your opinion on what you have been brought up with indeed. God created us, he taught us of what we (Mankind) new not of according to the Quraan, If God is limited , how could he have created the world how could we associate partners with the one who is all powerful, all knowing, the majestic(these are a few of the names of Allaah/God according to the Quraan)? why do you need rocks to worship God? When Rock is itself a creation of God?

Whether idol has power or not is a matter of experience. Many people have stated that idols have power. What are we to say of that? ?

I quote you "What are we to say of that?" Well we are to say that rock/stone is a creation of God, and God is allmighty we dont need to give him forms of idol worship of creatures etc.etc.

And pray, what is the main thing?

Pray is when we pray to God, we ask him for what we want, in our time of needs etc , Allaah asks us to pray our daily prayers as its a commandment and the best thing is , Pray will not benefit God it will only benefit US, like i said he is the All Majestic!

What you consider the main thing may not be the main thing for others. Got it??

Well a muslims reply would be what Allaah says in the Quraan:"Lakum deenukum waliya deeni " -"For you (is) your religion, and for me (is) my religion." But verily you should do some research and study as Prophets were sent to every nation.


Peace

[K.Venugopal]

can the absoulte be destroyed?

No.

Does God need replacing?

No.

The Idol does but God does not as God is all powerful.

Yes.

Why would the one that is all powerful need replacing?

Idols represent the all powerful and in that role, help us connect with the all-powerful and therefore is as good as all powerful for us. Whenever the all-powerful wishes to demonstrate the power of an idol, such power has been demonstrated through the idol. So though it may seem technically destructible, many idols have remained intact over aeons and are worshipped even today as they were worshipped aeons before. Such stories prove that just because technically it is possible for man to break anything made of stone, it does not actually happen that all idols gets broken. The very fact that all idols do not get broken prove that it has a power that is protecting it, which for the idol worshipper is as good as the power within the idol itself.

Allah swt is the all powerful God that we both agree God is-

I do not agree with this statement so long as Allah is not a generic word like God.

the idols are not so they are not an accurate representation of God.

A representation is just that, a representation – not the real thing. You can say that we both agree that God is all powerful, because God is a generic word which incorporates the meaning you and I give to it. But I do not agree Allah is all powerful because the word Allah is not a generic word that incorporates the meaning of God that I would have. In fact, far from allowing the word Allah to grow into a generic word as the word God has grown, Muslims want to restrict the word and do not want even the Christians to use the word Allah for God, as happened in a case in Malaysia.

We Both agree that God is all powerful - from here we can see that Idol cannot be a true representation of God as it is not all powerul - for example it is dependent on humans - whilst God the all powerful is not. The idol is a total contradcition of the all powerful.

The idol is for the benefit of man. It was never intended in Hinduism that there be a contention for power between the idol and God. Maybe this idea is there in Islam and maybe this is why Allah appears to be very intolerant of idols, as if somewhere He suspected idols had power to usurp Him, at least in popularity among men!

Allah is not contained anywhere not in his name as that would contradcit the all power

That Allah is not contained even in His name is exactly the point I wished to make, and yet you need to use His name to get to Him.

- the huge difference here is that your defending that idols have power and not any sort of power but the power of God –

The power of God and the power in idols are entirely on different basis. The power in idols is the power to awaken us to our divinity, because the idols act as focus of our efforts to awaken to our divinity. The power of God is the absolute power, not limited by any identifiable name or form.

This cannot be true as the Idols are not all powerful whilst we both agree that God is.

Idol worship can lead us to the all powerful God.

This does not require any radical spiritual path as I am sure anyone could see that the idols are not all powerful.

You are making this out to be a war between idols and God. This is the stand of none less than Allah Himself, who considered idols the greatest potential threat to His authority. The Hindus would only laugh at such a position. For Hindus, idols are the gateways to God.

[K.Venugopal]

Proof of existence compared to assumption of non-existence; weigh the case within your own logic. Arguments and counter arguments need a base; in this case the argument against God's existence is a mere assumption.

The existence of something does not necessarily mean the existence of God.

[K.Venugopal]

God is all powerful the idols are not –

In the Hindu scheme of things there is no confrontation between God and idols. In Islam there is and therefore you need to debunk idols to pass God’s loyalty test.

they cannot be an accuarate representation of God for that very reason.

A representation is just that, a representation of the real thing, not the real thing.

Allah swt is just another word for God - the all powerful.

As Muslims have made it out and insist, Allah is not just another word for God. God has become a generic word and Muslims do not want the same thing to happen to Allah. For example, I can call Krishna God and there will be no objections etymologically from any quarter. But I cannot call Krishna Allah. This is not permitted by Muslims because they have a unique meaning for the word Allah confined to Islamic understanding.

Heres another problem is God dependent or independent of humans???

The only difference between God and everything else in existence is that God is eternal, absolute etc., whereas everything else in existence is ephemeral, limited etc. This position however does not make God separate from the rest of existence, but one with existence, existence being nothing other than different aspects of God. There is an interplay of God and humans in the drama of existence and in the poetry of such interplay, God has proclaimed that He is a willing servant to his dearest pilgrims. These sorts of expressions are of course not to be taken in black and white but as creating the mood for man’s affair with God.

[K.Venugopal]

alright guys...this is prolly my last post on this forum coz people here are pretty much stuck with their own beliefs and believe they have the license to pass judgements on other faiths without ever having put in even a shred of effort into understanding them. Of course, when someone calls Quran 'political ideology' and 'terrorist propoganda' the response is 'you know nothing about Quran and Islam. Go read the Quran'. The same response to criticism of Hinduism, however, doesn't seem acceptable. Such an attitude can IN NO WAY foster an open mind regardless of whatever you may claim.

Anyway, here's my take on idol worship:

1) When you pray, it is only the sincerity of your devotion that is of utmost importance. If you consider an idol as God and worship it then, essentially, to your mind, you are worshiping God since, to you, the idol is God. As such, God, being able to understand the sincerity of his devotee, knows that in the worshiper's mind he is praying to God and therefore accepts his devotee's prayers. Therefore, irrespective of whether the idol is objectively God or not, the worshiper's subjective knowledge is good enough for his prayers to reach the required destination.

2) So you ask why not pray to God directly? Why an idol at all? Having an idol amplifies devotion by several notches. Would you lik to only think of your little child in your mind or have him right in front of your eyes so you can shower all your love on him? Having your idol in front of you enables you to see God, subjectively, in front of you and thus offer prayers, offer flowers etc. lik as though you are interacting with God directly. And again, since God understands his devotees well he knows the idol means God to his devotee and hence accepts the love the devotee showers on him.

3) After the end of the Ganesh Chaturthi celebrations, the Ganesh idol is submerged in water and destroyed. The next year new idols are made. Wooden deities of Jagannath, Balabhadra, Subhadra and Sudarshan Chakra are submerged and remade every year in the ancient Jagannath Temple of Orissa. Therefore, the idea of idol destruction is not new and infact stands testimony to the fact that idols are not objectively considered as God among Hindus.

4) Someone said 'why doesn't the idol punish me if I destroy it' to which I asked 'why doesnt Allah strike me down if I abuse him'? The reply I got was 'you can't abuse Allah'. This argument seems rather nonsensical coz if I can make Allah the object of my prayers then surely I can make him the object of abuse too? Plus, the Quran expressly lays down punishments for the abusers of Allah which means abuse of Allah should be possible?

These are my arguments and if you are still stuck with your 'idol cant move on its own so its not God' rhetoric then that is you prerogative to do so.

What a wonderful overview of idol worship. You have written it with a great sense of proportion. Please do not leave this forum, unless you are pressed for time. The folks here are nice guys really.

[K.Venugopal]

I remember once seeing some extensive artical trying to claim that Islam was merely "recycled Hinduism", and it was giving all kinds of parallels between the two religions and making connections between figures such as Brahma with Abraham. Has anyone else encountered these sort of claims? I have also heard that Hinduism had its original roots in West Asia rather than South Asia, so perhaps Hinduism has some connections with pre Islamic religion.

I would not agree that Islam is recycled Hinduism because I do not deny the capacity of man to be innovative. At the same time it would always turn out that there is nothing new under the sun - what appears a novelty today may have had its nucleus in yesterday's thought.

[Muslimeen]

I would not agree that Islam is recycled Hinduism because I do not deny the capacity of man to be innovative. At the same time it would always turn out that there is nothing new under the sun - what appears a novelty today may have had its nucleus in yesterday's thought.

Even if hinduism has it's roots from prophet Abraham (AS) it has been changed far beyond recognition. Islam may have something in common with other prophetic religions, but instead of being a recycled version of any of these it is an improved and polished version. Unspoiled by man it remains in it's true glory. So it's upto you whether you want to follow a conconcted out of date version or the revised upto date original version.

[Trumble]

I remember once seeing some extensive artical trying to claim that Islam was merely "recycled Hinduism", and it was giving all kinds of parallels between the two religions and making connections between figures such as Brahma with Abraham. Has anyone else encountered these sort of claims? I have also heard that Hinduism had its original roots in West Asia rather than South Asia, so perhaps Hinduism has some connections with pre Islamic religion.

It certainly had it's roots with the Aryan (a word with several different uses that should not be confused) people who migrated into India possibly even as early as 4000 BCE, with some of the Vedic scriptures dating from as early as 1500 BCE. Those same people actually migrated across pretty much all of Europe as well (even the name Eire - Ireland - is of that origin!), as is still revealed today by the distribution of the so-called Indo-European language family. That does not include Hebrew and Arabic, and I'm not aware of any vaguely convincing link between what became Hinduism and Abraham. Frankly, the article sounds like a Yahya-esque fabrication intended to try and gain Hindu converts to Islam. As with Buddhism, about which I'm rather more knowledgeable, I'm fairly certain that Hinduism is inherently incompatible with Judeo-Christian-Islamic monotheism as they embrace completely different perceptions not just of deities, but of Reality itself.

People are very fond of drawing 'parallels' between religions. It's rarely evidence of anything more than the great religions adopting much the same codes of morality, not because they were dictated by God or gods but simply because they were and are the best way for people to best get along and flourish . I have seen the case presented that Jesus was in fact heavily influenced by Buddhist teachings.. and consider that to be complete nonsense as well.

[K.Venugopal]

… it is an improved and polished version. Unspoiled by man it remains in it's true glory. So it's upto you whether you want to follow a conconcted out of date version or the revised upto date original version.

I would hardly say that Islam is an improvement over the non-dual schools of thought of Hinduism, which pre-existed the Islam of Mohammad - of which Sufis have also been practitioners. With Alalh’s warning-a-page of dire consequences unless He is followed, I would hardly consider it as polished when compared to the Sermon on the Mount of Jesus. Talking of being out of date, Islam is destined to be out of date as it is stuck in the mindset of the middle ages.

[K.Venugopal]

I see proof of Allah's existence all around me.

Can you give me a single proof of Allah's existence, apart from those within the ken of your belief?

[Karl]

It certainly had it's roots with the Aryan (a word with several different uses that should not be confused)

Yes I agree that the word "Aryan" has been ridiculously confused over the last century or so. Actually the "Aryan" definition the Nazis had was completely erroneous. The Germanics of Northern Europe were NOT Aryans at all. They were actually Western barbarian tribes (comprising of the Teutonics, Saxons, Goths, Berzerks, Vikings, Celts, Angles, Norse, etc). But the REAL Aryans were Eastern warrior tribes not connected to the Germanics. The word Aryan derives from "Ariana" (the old name of Iran). The Aryans were actually originally called the "Hyksos" but when they settled in North India they became known as "Aryans". The Aryans are quite big, hard set and fair skinned so hence probably one reason why they were easy confused with the Germanics. But yes the Germanics have no link to the true Aryans.

[أحمد]

:sl:

The existence of something does not necessarily mean the existence of God.

There's a huge difference between the existence of something and existence of God. Your statement merely suggests the idea that its possibly anything, which makes your argument fail before it starts. We aren't discussing existence of the common materialistic reality you're aware of.

Let's look at the universe; how it came to be, how its sustained and how far its possibility goes without God.

Atheistic argument: Quantum particles caused a chain reaction, which eventually lead to the big bang.

Time relativity: Time is relative to motion, not an absolute.

Until recently, the atheistic argument was known to hold water. More recent advances in science have rendered it obsolete.

This doesn't mean atheists will give up their battle based on assumptions to fight against the truth.

God is absolute. He is NOT limited to time (time isn't absolute, as stated by Einstein and modern science). Atheistic Quantum argument is based on the idea of an absolute time, which allowed an almost autocausative motion. Science has taken a U-turn out of there.

If this is understood; we can move onto analysing the evidence further.

:wa:

[K.Venugopal]

It is possible that in Hinduism, belief and fact cannot go hand in hand. In Islam however, they do.

I do not understand how belief and fact can go together as one or are interchangeable in usage. At best both can live together side by side. Either we believe in a thing but are unable to prove it as an objective fact or we know it to be a fact. If we know something to be a fact and if that fact is universally verifiable without any subjective condition, then that remains a fact. Belief I don’t think can be passed off as fact.

Allah is your Lord and Creator, and the Creator of the Sun and Moon, and that is a fact. Whether you choose to accept that fact or not makes no difference to the truth of the fact.

Allah is the Lord and Creator only of and for the believers. Please do not try to pass off belief as fact. You quotation of Quranic verses to prove your point proves the point only for believers.

[أحمد]

:sl:

I do not understand how belief and fact can go together as one or are interchangeable in usage. At best both can live together side by side. Either we believe in a thing but are unable to prove it as an objective fact or we know it to be a fact. If we know something to be a fact and if that fact is universally verifiable without any subjective condition, then that remains a fact. Belief I don’t think can be passed off as fact.

Allah is the Lord and Creator only of and for the believers. Please do not try to pass off belief as fact. You quotation of Quranic verses to prove your point proves the point only for believers.

Belief and faith are different, otherwise even Iblees believes in the existence of God.

:wa:

[K.Venugopal]

There's a huge difference between the existence of something and existence of God. Your statement merely suggests the idea that its possibly anything, which makes your argument fail before it starts. We aren't discussing existence of the common materialistic reality you're aware of.

What I meant was that just because the world exists, it does not mean that a creator exists, as was suggested in a post earlier.

Atheistic argument: Quantum particles caused a chain reaction, which eventually lead to the big bang.

What do you make of this?

Time relativity: Time is relative to motion, not an absolute.

Let alone time being absolute, times does not exist at all except as a measurement of man.

Until recently, the atheistic argument was known to hold water. More recent advances in science have rendered it obsolete.

Which atheistic argument?

This doesn't mean atheists will give up their battle based on assumptions to fight against the truth.

Why do you assume atheists want to fight against truth? Can’t they be trying to discover truth in their own way?

God is absolute.

If there is something absolute, we may call it God.

He is NOT limited to time (time isn't absolute, as stated by Einstein and modern science).

That which is eternal, if there is something like that, even as a concept in our mind, let us call that thing or understanding as God.

Atheistic Quantum argument is based on the idea of an absolute time, which allowed an almost autocausative motion. Science has taken a U-turn out of there.

I would be unable to talk to you on this because I am not knowledgeable about Quantum physics. But I like the term autocausative, which I am hearing for the first time through you. I think the word implies a cause that is implicit in itself - that there need not be an external agency to act as the causal. Am I right?

[K.Venugopal]

Belief and faith are different, otherwise even Iblees believes in the existence of God.

Belief, not being a fact, is a supposition. Faith is a quality that is born in us that gives us the assurance that we can rely on a particular person, thing, understanding, expectation or whatever. Iblees knew God, so a belief was not required for him – God was a fact for Iblees. You are right. He did not have faith in God.

[أحمد]

:sl:

What I meant was that just because the world exists, it does not mean that a creator exists, as was suggested in a post earlier.

What do you make of this?

Let alone time being absolute, times does not exist at all except as a measurement of man.

Which atheistic argument?

Why do you assume atheists want to fight against truth? Can’t they be trying to discover truth in their own way?

If there is something absolute, we may call it God.

That which is eternal, if there is something like that, even as a concept in our mind, let us call that thing or understanding as God.

I would be unable to talk to you on this because I am not knowledgeable about Quantum physics. But I like the term autocausative, which I am hearing for the first time through you. I think the word implies a cause that is implicit in itself - that there need not be an external agency to act as the causal. Am I right?

Autocausative means to be a cause of itself, as the atheistic argument suggests.

The rest show's how the atheistic argument fall's apart under an update of its own theory base.

Time isn't a measurement of man, but time can be measured; its measurements (units) are man-made, time itself isn't man-made. Time is the interval of motion (see motion physics).

Belief, not being a fact, is a supposition. Faith is a quality that is born in us that gives us the assurance that we can rely on a particular person, thing, understanding, expectation or whatever. Iblees knew God, so a belief was not required for him – God was a fact for Iblees. You are right. He did not have faith in God.

Believe is an opinion, while faith is trust.

:wa:

[K.Venugopal]

I cant understand how the hell could a perverted man like Krishna ever qualify to be an avatar , Prophet or an idol of God ? Krishna has done a despicable thing. The bhagwad mentions that while a group of young women known as gopis are bathing naked in the river yamuna, krishna runs away with their clothes and thus forces them to come out of the river nude. When the gopis emerge from the water bashfully hiding their sexual organs with their hands, krishna tells them that since they have offended the water god by bathing naked, they should ask for his forgiveness with their hands raised in salutation to him, and then they can take back their clothes. In this context the bhagwad says that krishna deceitfully made them expose their sexual organs to him, and that he was very pleased to see them in their virgin state. Is this the kind of example he wants to set as a God ?

Of Krishna, everything is said. The entire depiction of Krishna is a masterly teaching that the root cause of man’s problem is that man’s mind is divided between his like-dislike dichotomies. When this dichotomy is overcome with the vision of total acceptance, man will inherit his true wholesome mind and everything will be seen in a new light – in the light of the oneness of existence.

[K.Venugopal]

Autocausative means to be a cause of itself, as the atheistic argument suggests.

Thanks for that. And why can’t it be right – that everything has a power inherent to be its own cause?

Time isn't a measurement of man, but time can be measured; its measurements (units) are man-made, time itself isn't man-made. Time is the interval of motion (see motion physics).

I maintain there is no such thing as time except as a measurement of man.

Believe is an opinion, while faith is trust.

You are right, absolutely.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Thanks for that. And why can’t it be right – that everything has a power inherent to be its own cause?

I maintain there is no such thing as time except as a measurement of man.

You are right, absolutely.

Anything which contradicts its own theory can't be right. Their argument is based on the idea of time being absolute, while its own theory states that time isn't an absolute.

Years, Months, Weeks, Hours, Minutes, Seconds ARE all examples of units of measuring time. Time is measured, the units are man-made; time itself isn't man-made.

:wa:

[K.Venugopal]

the Quraan is not destroyed when someone burns it rather the book is, but it is quite insulting to followers that such events take place in this case it is insulting to the Muslims. If your holy book was burnt, would you not feel angry and insulted?

I agree with you.

You made the Idol and you worship the idol, meaning you created God as you worship the idol in the form of your God. I quote you "Just as the Quran in book form" what do you mean by this statement ,

What is meant is that the word of God, which would be intangible for man, was made in book form for man’s comprehension. Similarly, with idols. You may not be worshipping the Quran. But the fact remains that for worshipping Allah you need many aids, including the Quran. Hindus use the aid of idols to worship God. They may seem to be worshipping the idols exclusively, but their worship is not restricted to the idols. In worshipping the idols they seek to reach God.

we do not worship the book rather we follow the teachings of the book , as its a revelation we muslims believe is from God and not written by man.

As I said, you need the aid of the Quran to reach God.

We muslims face in the directin of Mecca as its a form of Unity, so every Muslim around the whole of this earth and creatures face in that direction during prayer, its called Unity. We are united and all One Ummah!.

Obviously this has not been enough to bring unity to the Ummah. Would you deny there is internecine warfare among Muslim communities, whatever the reasons?

Nope its not due to limitations, its just the direction we are commanded to face which is one direction for the whole Muslim nation.

Why did God need to receive worship in such a limited way?

Idols are worshipped in the form of God. God is everywhere, why do you need idols?

How can we conceive of that which is without form?

what part of accepting your prayer will the rock do?

If I talk to a rock do you think God will not hear me? Hasn’t Allah been described as all-hearing?

You are giving God forms of different animals, human etc.

Why not? In giving form to the formless, why should one form be considered less than another?

The Islamic belief is there is only one God,

By saying there is only one God Islam has reduced God to a countable object.

and he does not need to be worshipped in forms on different images,

He might not need it, but what about our needs?

God is our Lord allmighty and i am sure you believe that also.

Yes, I believe that Allah is your God.

why do you need rocks to worship God? When Rock is itself a creation of God?

Why do you need a name (Allah) to worship God when Allah is only God’s name?

I quote you "What are we to say of that?" Well we are to say that rock/stone is a creation of God, and God is allmighty we dont need to give him forms of idol worship of creatures etc.etc.

God, according to Hinduism, has given us the freedom to worship Him any which way, except ways that will cause disharmony in society.

Allaah says in the Quraan:"Lakum deenukum waliya deeni " -"For you (is) your religion, and for me (is) my religion."

Yes. But unfortunately elsewhere He says that your religion is wrong and only my religion is right.

[K.Venugopal]

Anything which contradicts its own theory can't be right. Their argument is based on the idea of time being absolute, while its own theory states that time isn't an absolute. Years, Months, Weeks, Hours, Minutes, Seconds ARE all examples of units of measuring time. Time is measured, the units are man-made; time itself isn't man-made.

Time is man's idea. It has no existence outside man's mind or his formulations. You could say that time in a belief, not a fact.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Time is man's idea. It has no existence outside man's mind or his formulations. You could say that time in a belief, not a fact.

Scientifically its a fact, philosophically its an idea. Philosophy is based on opinions, not facts.

:wa:

[Insaanah]

I find some of the arguments being used here very strange. Because we use Allah's name to call him (as anybody in this world uses a name to call anyone), that to you is a means of reaching him and according to you thus is an idol in the way Hindus use idols to "reach God".

A name is a linguistic word, it is not an idol.

It may comfort you to think that everybody else is worshipping idols too, but this "concept" of yours is showing desperation and is completely far-fetched.

Peace.

[Trumble]

Scientifically its a fact, philosophically its an idea. Philosophy is based on opinions, not facts.

At best, time can be a scientific theory not a 'fact'. And all such theories have no independent existence outside of our minds; they are what our minds use to interpret a reality we cannot generally or conventionally directly perceive. Time, of course, is a little different from your run-of-the-mill theory in that its conception is so fundamental to the way we live, but that doesn't alter the fact that a mental construct is all it is. Just like gravity.

[K.Venugopal]

Yes I can prove for someone who never saw the moon that the moon exists : I'll go out with him at night an show him the moon, that's the proof. Yes I can give a proof outside my mind, but the problem is : will he accept my proof ? Imagine I'm showing the moon to a blind person : he won't understand/accept my proof. However for others (who can see) it's a sufficient proof

The moon’s existence is not dependent of your proving it exists. It exists irrespective of your proof or others accepting your proof. This is because the moon is an objective phenomenon to man’s subjective reality. In the case of Allah, believe is a priori sine-qua non for establishing His existence. Where there is no believe, there is no existence of Allah. The existence of Allah is not based on knowledge but believe or faith. According to some schools of thought in Hinduism, God is a fact because God is not just a subjective truth but because God is the subject. That we exist is a fact, not merely a belief. Therefore, according to these schools, because we are God, God is also a fact and not a belief. Whether someone accepts an objective reality or not, the object exists independent of our mind. Whether someone accepts a subjective reality or not, the subject and its experiences and understanding are not available for verification outside the subject. It has so far not been proved objectively that Allah is an object outside man's mind.

The same way, I can give you many proofs that Allah exists. But some people will not see it as a proof, however many others will accept it as a proof : look at the big number of people entering in Islam, do you think they just read the mind of one muslim calling them to islam, or they saw proofs out of his mind and accepted them ?

Please give me a proof that Allah exists.

[K.Venugopal]

Scientifically its a fact, philosophically its an idea. Philosophy is based on opinions, not facts.

You have check-mated me on this. Good going.

[K.Venugopal]

I find some of the arguments being used here very strange. Because we use Allah's name to call him (as anybody in this world uses a name to call anyone), that to you is a means of reaching him and according to you thus is an idol in the way Hindus use idols to "reach God". A name is a linguistic word, it is not an idol.It may comfort you to think that everybody else is worshipping idols too, but this "concept" of yours is showing desperation and is completely far-fetched.

First, please tell me whether Allah is God or is a word (name) used to call or denote Allah?

[أحمد]

:sl:

At best, time can be a scientific theory not a 'fact'. And all such theories have no independent existence outside of our minds; they are what our minds use to interpret a reality we cannot generally or conventionally directly perceive. Time, of course, is a little different from your run-of-the-mill theory in that its conception is so fundamental to the way we live, but that doesn't alter the fact that a mental construct is all it is. Just like gravity.

If you call time a theory, then scientifically you don't believe in the existence of facts, because they all take time to prove.

:wa:

[Insaanah]

First, please tell me whether Allah is God or is a word (name) used to call or denote Allah?

You know exactly what it is, and I have answered you in my post above. Words in a language, names, verbs, nouns, are not idols, no matter how hard you might try to make them out to be in order to try and make Muslims out to be idol worshippers. Go to any scholar of linguistics, and ask if words, names, verbs, nouns can be idols.

This is an idol (from Wikipedia): "An idol is a human-made object that is worshipped in some way". Murtis used by Hindus is an entry under that, as is Divinization. "Divinization or deification is the "making divine", the "self-deification" of an earthly entity, individual, group, or activity." This would apply to you, as you believe that you are god. Both spectrums of Hindus come under idolaters.

You will notice that a name is not stated as being an idol, because it is not one. An idol is not anything used to "reach God". That is your own made up wrong definition.

As such, I suggest you stop this baseless and desperate accusation of idol worship.

Peace.

[nousername]

It seems in Hinduism not everyone is given a fair shot at opportunities in life. If you happen by chance of birth to be a dalit than you are screwed and are considered "unclean" but if for example you are a brahman it's like being born with a silver spoon in your mouth. And this is all just by chance of birth! seems unfair

[Trumble]

If you call time a theory, then scientifically you don't believe in the existence of facts, because they all take time to prove.

The application of time in that context is no different from in any other context. 'Time' is simply a theory that we use to explain what we experience; I would hesitate to describe as (solely) a scientific theory as obviously it has been around long before anything resembling 'science'. It's not alone in that respect, either - many scientists as well as philosophers (indeed the boundary is very murky here) consider all our mental states to be no more than the postulates of such a theory.

[أحمد]

:sl:

The application of time in that context is no different from in any other context. 'Time' is simply a theory that we use to explain what we experience; I would hesitate to describe as (solely) a scientific theory as obviously it has been around long before anything resembling 'science'. It's not alone in that respect, either - many scientists as well as philosophers (indeed the boundary is very murky here) consider all our mental states to be no more than the postulates of such a theory.

Time is neither a mental state, nor a theory. What limits your understanding so much as to call it a theory is the fact that time isn't an object you can see or feel, although you can measure it. It is like the other blessings of Allah, which can either be seen, heard, felt or measured, but due to the lack of understanding; some of us fail to distinguish the differences between reality and fiction. In the case of time; the reality is that time does exist, but due to lack of understanding, there are people who prefer to ignore its existence; as it weaken's the basis of their arguments against reality.

:wa:

[Lynx]

i think this discussion of time is bordering on a miscommunication of terms. the existence of some property 'time' is a part of our universe and this is independent of humans in that if all humans ceased to exist there would still be 'time'. time can be altered by physical objects such as large bodies in space like blackholes etc. But i think what people mean when they say time is a product of our mental states is that how we interpret the physical phenomenon of time is entirely dependent by our understanding of it (i.e., the theory of how time works).

Scientifically its a fact, philosophically its an idea. Philosophy is based on opinions, not facts.

philosophy, at least in North america and england is just a rigorous method of learning that incorporates facts to understand abstract truths. the nature of time would be such a 'truth' but this is also a topic in physics and as trumble rightly points out, the line between science and philosophy is murky.

[Trumble]

Time is neither a mental state, nor a theory. What limits your understanding so much as to call it a theory is the fact that time isn't an object you can see or feel, although you can measure it. It is like the other blessings of Allah, which can either be seen, heard, felt or measured, but due to the lack of understanding; some of us fail to distinguish the differences between reality and fiction. In the case of time; the reality is that time does exist, but due to lack of understanding, there are people who prefer to ignore its existence; as it weaken's the basis of their arguments against reality.

You seem to have resorted to complete waffle in the absence of anything substantial to support your proposition. Can you explain how time can be measured other than in terms of the perceptions and consequent interpretations of the experimenter's mind? Who are these people who are supposed to ignore the existence of time, and how do you explain their ability (presumably) to function at all? The issue is not whether time exists, but what it IS!

time can be altered by physical objects such as large bodies in space like blackholes etc.

Can it? When was the last time you passed by a black hole and experienced this? The only reason you suggest such a thing is that you are aware of Einstein's theory of General Relativity. But what is that other than a mental construct created to explain and predict observable phenomena? Indeed, in that instance, the theory even came before the observations. Were all those black-holes distorting space-time before Einstein, or was the observational data (if any) explained by some other theory?

Incidently, Ahmed, was time a 'fact' before anyone had ever thought about or theorized space-time? If so was it the same 'fact' as it is today, or a different one?

[Lynx]

Can it? When was the last time you passed by a black hole and experienced this? The only reason you suggest such a thing is that you are aware of Einstein's theory of General Relativity. But what is that other than a mental construct created to explain and predict observable phenomena? Indeed, in that instance, the theory even came before the observations. Were all those black-holes distorting space-time before Einstein, or was the observational data (if any) explained by some other theory?

Well I am sure we both know that when you put a clock into space, the further it goes from the massive body of Earth the faster it moves. So, given that, what is your objection to the existence of physical time? Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

[أحمد]

:sl:

You seem to have resorted to complete waffle in the absence of anything substantial to support your proposition. Can you explain how time can be measured other than in terms of the perceptions and consequent interpretations of the experimenter's mind? Who are these people who are supposed to ignore the existence of time, and how do you explain their ability (presumably) to function at all? The issue is not whether time exists, but what it IS!




Can it? When was the last time you passed by a black hole and experienced this? The only reason you suggest such a thing is that you are aware of Einstein's theory of General Relativity. But what is that other than a mental construct created to explain and predict observable phenomena? Indeed, in that instance, the theory even came before the observations. Were all those black-holes distorting space-time before Einstein, or was the observational data (if any) explained by some other theory?

This is exactly what you get when confusing science and philosophy. Give yourselves time to think; try to keep an open mind and understand the science before going into philosophy. Prior to the introduction of philosophy of time; the discussion was about the failed atheistic argument using quantum physics. If you read the posts; there's no mention of philosophy; its all on the topic of science; there's no room for philosophy in or around the argument, no matter how murky anyone claims it to be.

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

Well I am sure we both know that when you put a clock into space, the further it goes from the massive body of Earth the faster it moves. So, given that, what is your objection to the existence of physical time? Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

Clock is a tool; its not time.

:wa:

[Trumble]

Well I am sure we both know that when you put a clock into space, the further it goes from the massive body of Earth the faster it moves. So, given that, what is your objection to the existence of physical time? Perhaps I've misunderstood you.

No, I don't 'know' that at all. Neither do you. Neither of us have ever observed or experienced it, or ever will. All we know is that we have read that that is what happens, and we can probably safely assume that is because somebody who has suggested that as a theory to explain certain observations has put pen to paper.

This is exactly what you get when confusing science and philosophy. Give yourselves time to think; try to keep an open mind and understand the science before going into philosophy. Prior to the introduction of philosophy of time; the discussion was about the failed atheistic argument using quantum physics. If you read the posts; there's no mention of philosophy; its all on the topic of science; there's no room for philosophy in or around the argument, no matter how murky anyone claims it to be.

I'm not 'confusing' anything, am not 'claiming' anything, have read the posts and have a perfectly open mind, thank you. You might follow some of your own advice, though.

Your own confusion seems to arise from a fundamental lack of understanding of the nature of both science and philosophy. Firstly, the philosophy comes before the science and always has done; every other academic discipline is an off-shoot of philosophy. The purpose of philosophy is not to present 'opinions', but to analyse fundamental concepts.. concepts (depending on the area of philosophy) relevant to everything we think and do. One of the most important areas in which it is essential we fully understand the concepts we use and how to apply them is.. yup, you guessed it, science.. and the whole of the scientific method depends upon it. 'Philosophy of Science' is a significant discipline in its own right, and there was no science for the scientists until philosophers created it for them (although generally, historically, they were the same people, of course!)

That application of philosophy is not limited to the method itself, but to particular branches of science; particularly new ones. The classic example is probably cognitive science, studying the nature of mind, everything that goes on within it, and the relation of 'mind' to the physical brain, what exactly are mental states and so on. Quantum physics is another good example; you can open your text book and see the numbers and equations, but what - in terms of human experience - do they actually mean? How do we know they represent this real 'scientific' world of yours and are not just academic exercises, or just squiggles on a page? Even if we don't or can't know it, are we justified in assuming it? If so, why? Why are there still different 'interpretations' of quantum physics amidst all these 'facts'? What, exactly, is being interpreted and why does it need interpreting? How can we tell which interpretation is right? CAN we ever tell? And so on, and so on.

As yet science has not yet 'even' been able to prove there even IS such a thing as an external, physical world. Even that most fundamental of 'facts' is, in fact, nothing of the sort. All anyone, in any academic field or none, can do is theorize that there is such an external, physical world in order to explain and predict their own experiences; space, time, and all the rest of it are just theories within a theory :) .

Anyway, yet again, we are straying far away from Hinduism, here!

[Lynx]

:sl:



Clock is a tool; its not time.

:wa:

You forgot to quote the part of my statement where I said otherwise.

No, I don't 'know' that at all. Neither do you. Neither of us have ever observed or experienced it, or ever will. All we know is that we have read that that is what happens, and we can probably safely assume that is because somebody who has suggested that as a theory to explain certain observations has put pen to paper.

And Therefore...?

[nousername]

why is everyone talking about time instead of points pertaining to Islam and Hinduism? One of you should make a thread about "time".

[Trumble]

why is everyone talking about time instead of points pertaining to Islam and Hinduism? One of you should make a thread about "time".

Oddly enough, the discussion is actually pretty indicative (albeit partly by analogy) of the fundamental difference between the 'Western' and 'Eastern' approaches to religion although we have certainly strayed rather too far from 'on topic', I agree!

[K.Venugopal]

It seems in Hinduism not everyone is given a fair shot at opportunities in life. If you happen by chance of birth to be a dalit than you are screwed and are considered "unclean" but if for example you are a brahman it's like being born with a silver spoon in your mouth. And this is all just by chance of birth! seems unfair

A Hinduism where some people were deprived while others were advantaged did occur for a period. However, Hinduism permits itself reformers to strive to set right circumstances and today, under the Indian constitution, which reflects the core of Hindu ethos, discrimination on the basis caste is illegal. On the contrary, affirmative action to set right past wrongs is one of the mainstays of the Indian constitution. In this context, it should be borne in mind that even in the worst periods of discrimination, there was nothing like ethnic cleansing in Hinduism as in some other societies. Therefore all the marginalized sections are still alive today and they are getting their place in the sun.

[K.Venugopal]

You know exactly what it is, and I have answered you in my post above. Words in a language, names, verbs, nouns, are not idols, no matter how hard you might try to make them out to be in order to try and make Muslims out to be idol worshippers. Go to any scholar of linguistics, and ask if words, names, verbs, nouns can be idols.

This is an idol (from Wikipedia): "An idol is a human-made object that is worshipped in some way". Murtis used by Hindus is an entry under that, as is Divinization. "Divinization or deification is the "making divine", the "self-deification" of an earthly entity, individual, group, or activity." This would apply to you, as you believe that you are god. Both spectrums of Hindus come under idolaters.

You will notice that a name is not stated as being an idol, because it is not one. An idol is not anything used to "reach God". That is your own made up wrong definition.

As such, I suggest you stop this baseless and desperate accusation of idol worship.

Peace.

But you have not answered my question as to whether Allah is the entity or the name or denotation of the entity.

[K.Venugopal]

why is everyone talking about time instead of points pertaining to Islam and Hinduism? One of you should make a thread about "time".

Thoughts on time, space, sound etc. would lead to the higher thoughts of Hinduism. For example, are sound and silence two entities or two aspects of the same entity?

[marwen]

Peace K.Venugopal,

The moon’s existence is not dependent of your proving it exists. It exists irrespective of your proof or others accepting your proof. This is because the moon is an objective phenomenon to man’s subjective reality.

But can you tell that to a group of blind people who never saw the moon. From your viewpoint it's objective : the moon is there all the time. But from their point of view, they don't think it's objective, they think it's only in your mind. You see : subjective / objective is just relative.

In the case of Allah, believe is a priori sine-qua non for establishing His existence. Where there is no believe, there is no existence of Allah.

That's totally wrong. First we see signs and evidences of the existence of Allah and then we believe in Him. We can't just believe in something (from scratch) without having a base : evidences/signs of its existence.


From the other hand, I don't know why you're stick on the idea of Allah being subjective. That's because of your Hindu background I guess. But in monotheistic religions in general, and in Islam in particular, Allah is not a subjective entity. He is even independent of his creation.

It has so far not been proved objectively that Allah is an object outside man's mind.

I say the opposite is correct. The existence of Allah is always proved Objectively, for the simple reason that Allah is outside our mind (I'll explain this later). Without receiving signs and evidences from the outside, a human will probably not be able to think about the existence of Allah. And that's the problem in the same time, because if you don't accept these signs and evidences coming from outside you will probably not be a believer.
Allah is outside our mind because He created us, He always existed before we start to exist, therefore He can't be dependent on our own subjective conception. If Allah were a subjective concept, there wouldn't a common conception/belief about Allah, because people's imagination is far from being the same.

Please give me a proof that Allah exists.

1) The existence of this universe necessitates a cause of its existence. Logically every part in this universe is produced by/after a cause. A house is caused by a man who built it. A stone is created after a volcano eruption, and the volcano is caused by some geological phenomenon which is caused by another physical phenomenon. There is a continuous chain of cause->effect, but there should be a first starting cause, otherwise, the chain of cause effects will be infinite back in the past, leading to an absurd conclusion which denies the existence of this universe (in other words, if there is no first cause (not caused by another cause) , then the resulting universe will not exist, which is absurd).
So there should be a first cause that didn't necessitate a precedent cause of it's existence : it just existed (always) (a). At this level let's not say that cause is a God, but let's say it's a phenomenon or an Entity that engendered/created/produced this universe.

2) If we observe this whole universe we realize the great power of its components : The energy of the sun, the power of the wind and the water, the wideness of this universe (infinite number of galaxies, etc.) and the magnitude of these planets and stars. There is so much power in this universe, and it necessitates a big power to maintain its existence. This moves us to the conclusion that the Entity responsible of the creation of this universe is Powerful enough to produce this great universe. This Entity is more powerful than everything in this universe because It's the source of power in this universe. We can say that this Entity is the Most Powerful(b).

3) The intelligence of design of every part in this universe : look at every planet and how it keeps moving in a precise orbit. Look at the plants how they are designed and how they manage to produce fruits from just water, air and dust. Look at the structure of animal bodies and how every species is created in a certain way that helps him to live in his own environment/ecosystem. Look finally at the anatomy of your body, how it's perfectly designed, and how every organ is created for a certain function, and look how our heart is made and how our brain works. This let us make the deduction that this Entity that produced our universe is Conscious (i.e Knows what He is doing) and Intelligent enough to produce the universe in that intelligent way. This Entity is the source of intelligence and consciousness. And It's The most Intelligent and Wise (c).

From (a), (b) and (c) we conclude that this universe is Created by an Entity that didn't necessitate a cause of its existence. That Entity is the Creator of this universe. This Entity is the Most Powerful, The Most Intelligent, the Most Wise, and knows what to do. This Entity did not create this universe for fun or without purpose, because it's more Intelligent than doing that. From these characteristics we conclude that this Entity is a God.

4) The scriptures revealed/sent to us through Prophets (prophets are people who are pure enough, sincere and honest enough to be chosen by God to spread his message to us), these scriptures like the Qur'an, the Injil, the Bible (and the other precedent monotheistic scriptures) are confirming the conclusions [ 1) 2) 3) ] about the existence of God. But also, these scriptures are covering the other aspects about God that we can't find out by our minds (i.e by ourselves) : These scriptures help us to know more about God, our Creator, to know more about his names (Allah, The Merciful, The Forgiving, etc.) And also these scriptures help us to know what is The purpose of our Creation, because Allah must have created us for a purpose, He is more wise to do something without purpose.

5) The miracles showed to us by Allah through his prophets : nearly every prophet have had material miracles. And the scientific miracles in the prophet-hood of the prophets informing their people about things that will happen in the future, and which really happen(ed). The scientific miracles in the scriptures. All these miracles are also confirming the truth of all the above [ 1) 2) 3) 4) ]

All these are proofs about the existence of Allah. But let me tell you some little points :

A] You don't really need someone to give you proofs about the existence of Allah. You can just observe the existence of this universe and how it's made and observe your body and how perfectly it's designed, and observe every thing around you. Then you will find out the proofs by yourself.

B] You have the full freedom to accept or refuse these proofs. But keep in mind that considering these as proofs or not is relative and depend on how you made your own criteria of what you consider a proof and what you don't. May be you're right. May be you're wrong. or may be you have to change your vision of what you consider a proof and what you don't.


And finally, as I probably said in other threads, people accept things as true when it comes to their daily life : they're sure they had lunch although they have no logical/rational proof if they ate lunch or not. When your boss calls you on phone and you guess it's your boss (from his voice), you don't ask him to give you a concrete/logical/scientific proof to show you he's really your boss. It will be stupid if we ask for a proof for everything we see, we won't be able to get out the maze. There is a lot of things that we accept as true and we don't ask for a further proof, and we are not supposed to accept a proof only if it is purely material or logical. We can sometimes accept a sign as a proof, or a trace of something as a proof of its existence.
But why when it comes to questions about the existence of Allah, we become totally rational and materialistic, we become like robots and we become insensible to the subtle signs and evidences presented to us, and we only accept a logical or mathematical demonstration. If we were always rational and purely materialistic in our lives we wouldn't be able to survive, because we will fail to give a rational conception of a lot of simple facts that we can't live without. So we need to reduce our exigency and accept them as true, or else we will be mad or we will die (by suicide probably).

If Allah was just logically obvious or materially concrete or visible, then there won't be a reward for the ones who accepted his existence for the simple signs and evidences they saw, and there won't be punishment for the ones who stuck on their arrogance and required proofs fitting with their desires.

These are evidences about the existence of Allah, there are also other evidences about the Uniqueness of Allah (no other God with him), and evidences showing the purpose of our creation. But all that could be discussed later in this thread or in other similar threads.

All the best.

[Zafran]

In the Hindu scheme of things there is no confrontation between God and idols. In Islam there is and therefore you need to debunk idols to pass God’s loyalty test.

This is the problem - we both believe that God is all poweful so thats where we can actually start to build a contructive talk - There is no debunking needed if we both accept that God is all powerful and the idols are not simply becasue the idols cannot move without humans, or clean themselves or even walk - the bottom line is that idols are dependent on humans - God is not otherwise God would not be all powerful - there is no need of debunking its quite clear that you have walked into a contradiction between idols and God.

A representation is just that, a representation of the real thing, not the real thing.

This is more confusing do you believe the idol is an aspect of God or not God? What is the real thing as you believed that all of existence is God? - here your saying the idol is not God????

As Muslims have made it out and insist, Allah is not just another word for God. God has become a generic word and Muslims do not want the same thing to happen to Allah. For example, I can call Krishna God and there will be no objections etymologically from any quarter. But I cannot call Krishna Allah. This is not permitted by Muslims because they have a unique meaning for the word Allah confined to Islamic understanding.

Its simple God which we both agree is all powerful from here we can carry on the talk - with Hindu names you have many Gods so why dont you use the word Gods rather then God?

The only difference between God and everything else in existence is that God is eternal, absolute etc., whereas everything else in existence is ephemeral, limited etc. This position however does not make God separate from the rest of existence, but one with existence, existence being nothing other than different aspects of God. There is an interplay of God and humans in the drama of existence and in the poetry of such interplay, God has proclaimed that He is a willing servant to his dearest pilgrims. These sorts of expressions are of course not to be taken in black and white but as creating the mood for man’s affair with God.

is "existence" all powerful like God or is it not? If existence is not all powerful then how can it be an "aspect" of the all powerful. Just to add you said the idol is not the "real thing" which is also part of existence - so what is the idol is it not an aspect of God?

all this is based around God being all powerful which we both agree on.

[K.Venugopal]

But can you tell that to a group of blind people who never saw the moon. From your viewpoint it's objective : the moon is there all the time. But from their point of view, they don't think it's objective, they think it's only in your mind. You see : subjective / objective is just relative.

Those who are blind, either by fate or simply by their refusal to see, are unfortunate people. Fortunately, blindness in many cases can be rectified.

By subject I mean the person who sees and by object I mean the thing seen. Many things are universally available for seeing. Seeing includes understanding also. If I see something, I could point out that thing for you to see or I could explain my understanding for you to understand. While seeing objects involves only our physical faculties, conveying understanding is often rather complex. You see Allah and Islamic teachings very clearly. If I do not see it, you would naturally seek to explain it so that I too may understand. Whether I finally understand or not is another matter. Or I may even say, I understand it differently.

I think in the understanding of Muslims and Hindus on certain matters, the issue is not so much as one group understands and the other does not. It is more about understanding differently. Of course, understanding differently need not necessarily mean contradictory understanding – it might only indicate the many possibilities of understanding.

we see signs and evidences of the existence of Allah and then we believe in Him. We can't just believe in something (from scratch) without having a base : evidences/signs of its existence.

Evidence is in the realm of facts. As far as Allah is concerned, you are only talking about belief.

From the other hand, I don't know why you're stick on the idea of Allah being subjective.

When I use the word subjective, what I mean is that Allah is not an objective phenomenon, placed somewhere outside us.

That's because of your Hindu background I guess. But in monotheistic religions in general, and in Islam in particular, Allah is not a subjective entity. He is even independent of his creation.

I understand the different positions on this between the monotheistic religions and the non-dual religions. And I do not think that either position is wrong. What I am arguing against is the Islamic position that the monotheistic position alone is correct.

I say the opposite is correct. The existence of Allah is always proved Objectively, for the simple reason that Allah is outside our mind (I'll explain this later).

I hold that you will never be able to prove Allah as you would be able to prove an object.

Without receiving signs and evidences from the outside, a human will probably not be able to think about the existence of Allah.

I hold that you are seeing a connection where none exists.

And that's the problem in the same time, because if you don't accept these signs and evidences coming from outside you will probably not be a believer. Allah is outside our mind because He created us, He always existed before we start to exist, therefore He can't be dependent on our own subjective conception.

This is your belief and I respect it and cannot say it is wrong because it is a matter of belief and belief need not tally with objective reality. Which, again, is not to say that belief is wrong because it may not tally with objective reality – because belief has its own truths to contribute to man – like they say, faith can move mountains.

If Allah were a subjective concept, there wouldn't a common conception/belief about Allah, because people's imagination is far from being the same.

That is the whole point – God is a subjective concept and therefore there is no common conception/belief about God (I would prefer to say no common expression). If in the case of Allah there is a commonality of belief, that is because Muslims are expected to follow the Quran, which is an objective reality.

The existence of this universe necessitates a cause of its existence. Logically every part in this universe is produced by/after a cause. A house is caused by a man who built it. A stone is created after a volcano eruption, and the volcano is caused by some geological phenomenon which is caused by another physical phenomenon. There is a continuous chain of cause->effect, but there should be a first starting cause,

Why, should there be a first starting cause – what about the concept of eternity. Does eternity have a starting point?

otherwise, the chain of cause effects will be infinite back in the past, leading to an absurd conclusion which denies the existence of this universe (in other words, if there is no first cause not caused by another cause) , then the resulting universe will not exist, which is absurd).

I am unable to see the logic of what you say here.

So there should be a first cause that didn't necessitate a precedent cause of it's existence : it just existed (always)(a) At this level let's not say that cause is a God, but let's say it's a phenomenon or an Entity that engendered/created/produced this universe. If we observe this whole universe we realize the great power of its components : The energy of the sun, the power of the wind and the water, the wideness of this universe (infinite number of galaxies, etc.) and the magnitude of these planets and stars. There is so much power in this universe, and it necessitates a big power to maintain its existence. This moves us to the conclusion that the Entity responsible of the creation of this universe is Powerful enough to produce this great universe. This Entity is more powerful than everything in this universe because It's the source of power in this universe. We can say that this Entity is the Most Powerful (b).

If the universe has great power and therefore it needs to be maintained, would not God have greater power? Does He not need to be maintained? If He can exist without maintenance, why can’t the universe exist without maintenance?

The intelligence of design of every part in this universe : look at every planet and how it keeps moving in a precise orbit. Look at the plants how they are designed and how they manage to produce fruits from just water, air and dust. Look at the structure of animal bodies and how every species is created in a certain way that helps him to live in his own environment/ecosystem. Look finally at the anatomy of your body, how it's perfectly designed, and how every organ is created for a certain function, and look how our heart is made and how our brain works. This let us make the deduction that this Entity that produced our universe is Conscious (i.e Knows what He is doing) and Intelligent enough to produce the universe in that intelligent way. This Entity is the source of intelligence and consciousness. And It's The most Intelligent and Wise (c).

Why can’t this entity that caused everything be something that is innate in the effect itself?

From (a) (b) and (c) we conclude that this universe is Created by an Entity that didn't necessitate a cause of its existence. That Entity is the Creator of this universe.

Even if we postulate a creator of this universe, that such a creator is called Allah and Mohammad is His last prophet is a belief extant only among the Muslims and is not universally accepted.

This Entity is the Most Powerful, The Most Intelligent, the Most Wise, and knows what to do. This Entity did not create this universe for fun or without purpose, because it's more Intelligent than doing that. From these characteristics we conclude that this Entity is a God.

This is your belief.

The scriptures revealed/sent to us through Prophets (prophets are people who are pure enough, sincere and honest enough to be chosen by God to spread his message to us), these scriptures like the Qur'an, the Injil, the Bible (and the other precedent monotheistic scriptures) are confirming the conclusions [ 1) 2) 3) ] about the existence of God. But also, these scriptures are covering the other aspects about God that we can't find out by our minds (i.e by ourselves) : These scriptures help us to know more about God, our Creator, to know more about his names (Allah, The Merciful, The Forgiving, etc.) And also these scriptures help us to know what is The purpose of our Creation, because Allah must have created us for a purpose, He is more wise to do something without purpose.

Scriptures are among mankind’s most valuable heritage. We should not attempt to limit scriptures to just one scripture.

The miracles showed to us by Allah through his prophets : nearly every prophet have had material miracles. And the scientific miracles in the prophet-hood of the prophets informing their people about things that will happen in the future, and which really happen(ed). The scientific miracles in the scriptures. All these miracles are also confirming the truth of all the above [ 1) 2) 3) 4) ]

Life itself is a miracle.

All these are proofs about the existence of Allah. But let me tell you some little points: You don't really need someone to give you proofs about the existence of Allah. You can just observe the existence of this universe and how it's made and observe your body and how perfectly it's designed, and observe every thing around you. Then you will find out the proofs by yourself.

The more we observe ourselves and our surroundings, the more we would come to realize that the oneness of everything is within us and the variety we see is but an expression of that oneness.

You have the full freedom to accept or refuse these proofs. But keep in mind that considering these as proofs or not is relative and depend of how you made your own criteria on what you consider a proof and what you don't. May be you're right. May be you're wrong. or may be you have to change your vision of what you consider a proof and what you don't.

OK.

And finally, as I probably said in other threads, people accept things as true when it comes to their daily life : they're sure they had lunch although they have no logical/rational proof if they ate lunch or not.

Really?

When your boss calls you on phone and you guess it's your boss (from his voice), you don't ask him to give you a concrete/logical/scientific proof to show you he's really your boss. It will be stupid if we ask for a proof for everything we see, we won't be able to get out the maze.

If I can make out it is my boss on the phone, what more proof would I want?

There is a lot of things that we accept as true and we don't ask for a further proof, and we are not supposed to accept a proof only if it is purely material or logical. We can sometimes accept a sign as a proof, or a trace of something as a proof of its existence.

A proof that satisfies one person may not be a sufficient proof for another person.

But why when it comes to questions about the existence of Allah, we become totally rational and materialistic, we become like robots and we become insensible to the subtle signs and evidences presented to us, and we only accept a logical or mathematical demonstration. If we were always rational and purely materialistic in our lives we wouldn't be able to survive, because we will fail to give a rational conception of a lot of simple facts that we can't live without.

You have become remarkably poetic here. I agree with you. The questioning is only because Muslims insist that Islam is the only true religion.

So we need to reduce our exigency and accept them as true, or else we will be mad or we will die (by suicide probably).If Allah was just logically obvious or materially concrete or visible, then there won't be a reward for the ones who accepted his existence for the simple signs and evidences they saw, and there won't be punishment for the ones who stuck on their arrogance and required proofs fitting with their desires.

A rewarding and punishing God. This is belittling God.

These are evidences about the existence of Allah, there are also other evidences about the Uniqueness of Allah (no other God with him), and evidences about the purpose of our creation. But all that could discussed later in this thread or in other similar threads.

Sure.

[K.Venugopal]

This is the problem - we both believe that God is all poweful so thats where we can actually start to build a contructive talk - There is no debunking needed if we both accept that God is all powerful and the idols are not simply becasue the idols cannot move without humans, or clean themselves or even walk - the bottom line is that idols are dependent on humans - God is not otherwise God would not be all powerful - there is no need of debunking its quite clear that you have walked into a contradiction between idols and God.

All idol worshippers know that idols represent something that is greater than the idol. In other words, idol worshippers know that idols, for them, represent God. Then where is the question of being confused between the powers of the idols and that of God? Because idols represent God, they bow in front of idols, worship them and have a sense of sanctity as if actually in front of God. The faith in the idol of long-time idol worshippers grows to such an extend that they believe that the idol can actually do anything that God might want to do. This is called faith. Who are we to argue against another’s faith or belief? Actually, in the Hindu culture, no one’s faith or belief is questioned. Even if it is obvious that someone’s believe is wrong, the Hindu culture simply says, give the person the space to live and learn. The only thing that Hinduism does not permit any which way is that which causes disharmony in society. This question of harmony (Dharma) is a very big subject in Hinduism, maybe its most basic subject.

This is more confusing do you believe the idol is an aspect of God or not God? What is the real thing as you believed that all of existence is God? - here your saying the idol is not God????

When I said that the idol is not God I said that God cannot be limited to the idol. God indeed is all of existence. Hindus believe that God is omnipresent (God is present everywhere), which the Muslims do not believe. Therefore if He is present everywhere, how can He not be present in an idol?

Its simple God which we both agree is all powerful from here we can carry on the talk - with Hindu names you have many Gods so why dont you use the word Gods rather then God?

Always, when Hindus say Gods, they mean the many expressions of the one God. In fact, Hindus don’t just say there is only one God. They go beyond the monotheistic concept to say that there is only God. (On this Dr. Zakir Naik says the difference between Hindus and Muslims is that while Hindus say there is only God, the Muslims say there is only God’s – the difference being just a possessive apostrophe.)

is "existence" all powerful like God or is it not? If existence is not all powerful then how can it be an "aspect" of the all powerful. Just to add you said the idol is not the "real thing" which is also part of existence - so what is the idol is it not an aspect of God?

Existence is everything that exists including God or the creative principle. Is there therefore any question of existence not being “all powerful”? When I said that the idol is not the real thing I said that it is not God or totality – only a representation, by man, of God. That which is eternal is God – everything else is ephemeral.

all this is based around God being all powerful which we both agree on.

There is a difference in the usage of the word “all powerful” between those who believe God is separate from creation and those who believe God and creation is one. For monotheists the power of God is a power that is best displayed when it goes against something. For the non-dualists, the power of God is best displayed in the harmonizing peace of existence. Therefore when I say that I am God, I would not be foolish enough to think that I am God as believed in by the monotheists. What is meant is that the peace and harmony that is the essence of existence is something that I too can experience and is my destiny to experience.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace to you K.Venugopal

What is meant is that the word of God, which would be intangible for man, was made in book form for man’s comprehension. Similarly, with idols. You may not be worshipping the Quran. But the fact remains that for worshipping Allah you need many aids, including the Quran. Hindus use the aid of idols to worship God. They may seem to be worshipping the idols exclusively, but their worship is not restricted to the idols. In worshipping the idols they seek to reach God. .

Well theres a difference between A book and an idol, in this case the Quraan and the idol. Yes the Quran contains words of benefit to us but we do not use it as a form of worship, wheras the idol you do, you give God a form!

As I said, you need the aid of the Quran to reach God. .

Yes and as I said the Quran contains words of Benefit and from God, but we dont use it to worship God, but you use the Idol to worship God in that form.

Obviously this has not been enough to bring unity to the Ummah. Would you deny there is internecine warfare among Muslim communities, whatever the reasons? .

Yes i think your talking of the Sects in Islaam, but the fact is even though they are divided between each other, they still all face same/one direction in worship which is Mecca. So there is still a form of Unity.

Why did God need to receive worship in such a limited way?.

Limited way? God does NOT need worship however we benefit from it. He gave us Food, Water, day to live and night to sleep and many more (endess list), and all he asks from us is to worship him daily, is it limited because it benefits us or is it limited because he knows it benefits us and we will be rewarded and become humble?

How can we conceive of that which is without form? .

Why do you give form to God when you dont know yourself what he looks like? Are you saying you`ve seen God? and because you dont know , you worship God through Rocks/idols!.However you give God a form for example human,animal etc. you still conceive God in many forms! And Muslims give God no form.

If I talk to a rock do you think God will not hear me? Hasn’t Allah been described as all-hearing? .

Yes Allaah is All hearing, so do you not think God will hear you also without talking to the rock? So if God can hear you even without talking to a rock, why talk to a rock? You should ask yourself that Q as your a Hindu and you worship the Rock as a form of God. So yes Allaah has been described as As-Sammi-All-Hearing!

Why not? In giving form to the formless, why should one form be considered less than another? .

This is just silly, we are talking about GOD, God doesnt need to worshipped in a form of what his creation, for example you worship God in the form of Animal, or human, why should he need to be worshipped in the form of HIS creation? Does your Vedas, Geeta also command you to worship god in through rocks and stones?

By saying there is only one God Islam has reduced God to a countable object. .

Is not God All-powerful,well in Islaam God describes himself as Al-Malik-The King, The Master, The Sovereign Lord, Al-Qudus-The Holy, The Pure, The Perfect etc etc. God hasnt reduced himself to a countless object, but those who worship idols have! God is one, because he is able to control the world , the whole universe, he in Islaam tells us he is the ONE, God doesnt no help!, Rocks do, as you carry them and etc etc. Leme show you what GOD really says he says in the Quran in Surah Al-Iklaas-The Sincerety: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only, Allah, the Eternal, Absolute, He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, And there is none like unto Him. Here God does NOT, describe himself as an Object, but rather someone who is perfect and able to take life of Human.

He might not need it, but what about our needs? .

Our needs you say? Worship is for our Benefit! I suggest you read Surah Ar-Rahmaan InshaAllaah this Q of yours shall be answered 100% weather you believe or not.

Yes, I believe that Allah is your God..

Yes i believe also he is your Lord and Mine, you can deny as much as you will, you cannot deny you was created by God can you? Yet you are not sure of the form of your God since you have many, and also suggests you have many Gods. But the fact is your and my Lord is one!

Why do you need a name (Allah) to worship God when Allah is only God’s name?.

Why Do Christians need the name Yeshua etc to worship their God? Why do you have many names for God? Btw Jesus (pbuh) caled upon God and he said Allaha, why do christian arabs call upon God and say Allah? Because it means God to them. All the prophets (pbut) all called upon God by a name, why did they? Allah tells us to call him by that name.

God, according to Hinduism, has given us the freedom to worship Him any which way, except ways that will cause disharmony in society..

Muslims job is to follow the 5 Pillars in Islaam, Shahadah the first Pillar, "To testify there is One God and Muhammad (saw) is his messenger", Salaah the second pillar, Worship Allaah in our 5 daily prayers (Note Muslim prayer keeps one to remember God man times in ONE day), Zakaah the third pillar where a muslim is supposed to give charity every year to the poor to HELP them, Sawm the fourth pillar of Islaam to fast in the month of Ramadhaan by not eating and drinking during daylight hours, which makes one strong in faith, not greedy, and humble, And Finally the fiffth pillar Hajj to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their your lifetime if accordable. Are you calling this Disharmony to society? Maybe you watched too much Tv and believe EVERYTHING they claim!

Yes. But unfortunately elsewhere He says that your religion is wrong and only my religion is right.

Really? Show me where, because this is what Allah says in the Quraan "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

Peace

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

a convert Muslim ( ex Hindu ) wrote that before death , a Hindu must utter that Allong Shreshthong ( Allah is the greatest of all ).

Can any Hindu describe more ?

[Charzhino]

I heard that Allah is formless, but I read in one hadith that the greatest reward in heaven will be to see Allahs face. So how can he be formless but have the form of some face from which our eyes can see?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

He has a form but not a form our eyes can see , like the unseen! InshaAllaah someone can elaborate!

[espada]

In Hinduism, intention is everything. The merit of an action is considered on the basis of the intention of the doer. For example, I might be seen giving a bar of chocolate to a child and someone, without knowing my true motive, may comment that I have done a good thing. By if my intention was to befriend the child and kidnap him, then the very act of giving the chocolate is bad, let alone my kidnapping the child.

Thank you for responding and teaching me about Hinduism. So intention is very important.

I have not understood this question.

The question was about who your act is intended for. When you do an act is it for yourself, in this world, the next, or for the pleasure a diety.

Please explain what you mean by “Basmala” so that I may comment on it.

bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm

That is the basmala. Here is a brief article about:

its significance


Ok, more questions if you don't mind.

Is there anything like zakat, a prescribed duty of charity as opposed to just regular charity?

Do your scriptures mention caring for the orphans? And how are orphans generally viewed?

Describe how you pray? Is there a agreed upon method, or timing pattern? Or do you as an individual decide these things?


Thank you in advance.

[Karl]

I heard that Allah is formless, but I read in one hadith that the greatest reward in heaven will be to see Allahs face. So how can he be formless but have the form of some face from which our eyes can see?

God(s) are not limited to one form, Muhammad (PBUH) said that Allah was beyond our comprehension (not the exact translation), as the knowledge of the true nature of Allah was not bestowed upon Muhammad (PBUH) or all previous Prophets. This knowledge is way beyond any Human comprehension and would only serve to confuse the people and is also not relevant to the commandments and messages. But maybe the key to life the universe and everything...light is a particle and a wave.
Also to see Allahs face may have more than one meaning ie could mean to be totally enlightened and to lose all ignorance. etc

[K.Venugopal]

Well theres a difference between A book and an idol, in this case the Quraan and the idol. Yes the Quran contains words of benefit to us but we do not use it as a form of worship, wheras the idol you do, you give God a form!

It is understood that Muslims do not worship anything except Allah. The question is, don’t you use the aid of the Quran in your worship (by reciting its verses)? Please understand that Hindus use idols as an aid to worship God. And also, I think Muslims understand that the verses of the Quran, being the words of Allah, are in a way no different from Allah. They believe the words of the Quran are eternal like Allah. Is this true?

Yes i think your talking of the Sects in Islaam, but the fact is even though they are divided between each other, they still all face same/one direction in worship which is Mecca. So there is still a form of Unity.

OK.

Limited way? God does NOT need worship however we benefit from it. He gave us Food, Water, day to live and night to sleep and many more (endess list), and all he asks from us is to worship him daily, is it limited because it benefits us or is it limited because he knows it benefits us and we will be rewarded and become humble?

God is very serious about us worshipping Him. It is not just that we can do it for our benefit. If we do not worship Him, He punishes us in Hell.

Why do you give form to God when you dont know yourself what he looks like? Are you saying you`ve seen God? and because you dont know , you worship God through Rocks/idols!.However you give God a form for example human,animal etc. you still conceive God in many forms! And Muslims give God no form.

It is man who gives form to the formless. Therefore it is inevitable that the form will reflect what is in the mind of man.

Yes Allaah is All hearing, so do you not think God will hear you also without talking to the rock? So if God can hear you even without talking to a rock, why talk to a rock? You should ask yourself that Q as your a Hindu and you worship the Rock as a form of God. So yes Allaah has been described as As-Sammi-All-Hearing!

There are many Hindus who feel they do not need a rock to talk to God. Incidentally, if talking to God is called prayer, listening to God is called meditation. And meditation is basically about silencing our minds so that we can hear God.

This is just silly, we are talking about GOD, God doesnt need to worshipped in a form of what his creation, for example you worship God in the form of Animal, or human, why should he need to be worshipped in the form of HIS creation? Does your Vedas, Geeta also command you to worship god in through rocks and stones?

God may not need anything. But what about our needs? Vedas, Geeta etc. do not insist on any particular form of worship. They give us the freedom of worship.

Is not God All-powerful,well in Islaam God describes himself as Al-Malik-The King, The Master, The Sovereign Lord, Al-Qudus-The Holy, The Pure, The Perfect etc etc. God hasnt reduced himself to a countless object, but those who worship idols have!

God is not reduced by His worship, whether through idols or words.

God is one, because he is able to control the world , the whole universe, he in Islaam tells us he is the ONE, God doesnt no help!, Rocks do, as you carry them and etc etc. Leme show you what GOD really says he says in the Quran in Surah Al-Iklaas-The Sincerety: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only, Allah, the Eternal, Absolute, He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, And there is none like unto Him. Here God does NOT, describe himself as an Object, but rather someone who is perfect and able to take life of Human.

I think we need to understand this verse in the Quran which not just says God is one, but says God is One and Only. Does this mean there is nothing other than God in the universe? If so, it is akin to Hindu teachings.

Yes i believe also he is your Lord and Mine, you can deny as much as you will, you cannot deny you was created by God can you?

The God that we are talking about maybe one but our understanding of Him is obviously different.

Yet you are not sure of the form of your God since you have many, and also suggests you have many Gods. But the fact is your and my Lord is one!

The formless has been given forms. Like an individual, who is the same individual, has many different dresses. Different dresses does not make an individual different.

Why Do Christians need the name Yeshua etc to worship their God? Why do you have many names for God? Btw Jesus (pbuh) caled upon God and he said Allaha, why do christian arabs call upon God and say Allah? Because it means God to them. All the prophets (pbut) all called upon God by a name, why did they? Allah tells us to call him by that name.

There is a tendency now-a-days to restrict the meaning of Allah as the God of the Muslims. I referred to that famous case in Malaysia.

Muslims job is to follow the 5 Pillars in Islaam, Shahadah the first Pillar, "To testify there is One God and Muhammad (saw) is his messenger", Salaah the second pillar, Worship Allaah in our 5 daily prayers (Note Muslim prayer keeps one to remember God man times in ONE day), Zakaah the third pillar where a muslim is supposed to give charity every year to the poor to HELP them, Sawm the fourth pillar of Islaam to fast in the month of Ramadhaan by not eating and drinking during daylight hours, which makes one strong in faith, not greedy, and humble, And Finally the fiffth pillar Hajj to make a pilgrimage to Mecca once in their your lifetime if accordable. Are you calling this Disharmony to society? Maybe you watched too much Tv and believe EVERYTHING they claim!

Disharmony arises when you claim yours is the only true religion.

Really? Show me where, because this is what Allah says in the Quraan "This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)

Please check: Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

[K.Venugopal]

The question was about who your act is intended for. When you do an act is it for yourself, in this world, the next, or for the pleasure a diety.

All action is born out of a sense of lack. The ultimate Hindu teachings pertain to being free from the need to act, upon realizing that we and our circumstances are perfect. At that point, considering that others would exist who have not reached that stage, action is recommended as an altruistic service without any desire for reward.

bismi-llāhi r-raḥmāni r-raḥīm. That is the basmala. Here is a brief article about:
http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC0908-3940

Basmala, as I understand, is quite overriding in Islam and I think it is one of the great things of Islam – remembering Allah under all circumstances. In fact, when Muslims say Insha Allah, nothing can beat that, though sometimes I wonder whether it has become somewhat mechanical. Hinduism gives its proponents the freedom to remember or not remember God or even go beyond the concept of God.

Is there anything like zakat, a prescribed duty of charity as opposed to just regular charity?

I do not think there is any structured charity in Hinduism. Individuals are encouraged to help the needy.

Do your scriptures mention caring for the orphans? And how are orphans generally viewed?

Hinduism traditionally had a joint-family system, where closely related lived together and hence the question of orphans did not arise. Today, when most of us live in nuclear-families, there are many institutions taking care of orphans.

Describe how you pray? Is there a agreed upon method, or timing pattern? Or do you as an individual decide these things?

Individuals decide the form of worship they wish to adopt and those who worship similarly are free to worship as a community.

[Charzhino]

what school of thought do you follow Venu, adviata or dviata?

[K.Venugopal]

what school of thought do you follow Venu, adviata or dviata?

I am enamoured of advaita. But I do not think spirituality should restrict itself within any bounds. I get into ecstasy listening to bhakti kirtans of Krishna. I would like to think that I do not belong to any particular school but am inheritor to all schools that would afford me a glimpse into the higher consciousness of man.

[abdussattar]

What is the fate on non-hindus, according to hindu beliefs?

[tango92]

What is the fate on non-hindus, according to hindu beliefs?

i heard you get resurrected as a rabbit or something.

do hindus believe animals have free will?

[abdussattar]

i heard you get resurrected as a rabbit

Now thats so cute :statisfie

[K.Venugopal]

What is the fate on non-hindus, according to hindu beliefs?

The fate of everyone is to discover their divinity.

[K.Venugopal]

i heard you get resurrected as a rabbit or something.

do hindus believe animals have free will?

Hindus hold that you could be reborn to either relearn the lessons that take you to divinity or, if the lessons have been sufficiently learnt, to be born in an environment that would augment complete understanding that frees one from birth and death.

There is no such thing as free will. When one is aware of only being part of the whole, the whole determines one's course and when one discovers that one is the whole, then one subjects oneself to the law of the whole - that of harmony.

[MrOmar]

All Pagans (Hinduism & Buddhism) will be in the Hell fire forever. How do people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son, worshiping statues or not worshiping him, everyone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people (Hinduism & Buddhism) & wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT). Please save yourself K.Venugopal from the fire leave this devil made evil Hinduism & embrace Islam the Truth. 112:1 Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 112:2 "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks). 112:3 He begets not, nor is He begotten. 112:4 "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." Surat Al-'Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) (The Holy Quran)

Hindus hold that you could be reborn to either relearn the lessons that take you to divinity or, if the lessons have been sufficiently learnt, to be born in an environment that would augment complete understanding that frees one from birth and death.

There is no such thing as free will. When one is aware of only being part of the whole, the whole determines one's course and when one discovers that one is the whole, then one subjects oneself to the law of the whole - that of harmony.

[bhakti]

All Pagans (Hinduism & Buddhism) will be in the Hell fire forever. How do people make lies about Allah (SWT) saying he has a son, worshiping statues or not worshiping him, everyone who believes in god hates the Pagan godless people (Hinduism & Buddhism) & wishes 2 things of them 1 their destruction 2 them worshiping the one & only god Allah (SWT). Please save yourself K.Venugopal from the fire leave this devil made evil Hinduism & embrace Islam the Truth.

So what you are saying is 'convert to my way of thinking and do exactly like I say or burn in raging fires for ever!'. But that's pure blackmail !

Do you condone blackmail MrOmar?