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User_23338
07-29-2010, 08:27 PM
Christians make lame excuses on why they think pork is okay and alcohol is okay when it is clearly not. Why don't they realize this?

why do Jews drink alcohol when they are not supposed to?

They also make lame excuses on why they drink alcohol.


Why do these people defend alcohol when it is clearly bad for you?

The bible doesn't even say the wine was alcoholic that Jesus(pbuh) drank
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-29-2010, 09:29 PM
Aslaamu`Alaaykum

Why do some Muslims listen to Music , when in Islaam its forbidden?
Well because theyre not practising their faith as theyre meant to, some maybe trying to stop listening to music as it may be there Jihaad ,struggling and striving for Allaahs sake.

These people who do what their faith tells them not to do are doing it, it clearly show they are not following their faith as its meant to be followed and are following only but their Desires!.
Theyre soo in love with the Alcohol, that Shaytaan tricks them into thinking its all good and as if its their only hope as in what makes them happy!

"That is because they followed that which angered Allah, and hated that which pleased Him. So He made their deeds fruitless." [Al-Qur`aan Surah Muhammad verse 28]

"Verily, those who have turned back (have apostated) as disbelievers after the guidance has been manifested to them, Shaitan (Satan) has beautified for them (their false hopes), and (Allah) prolonged their term (age)." [Al Qur`aan Surah Muhammad verse 25]
And there are many more verses inshaAllaah the other brothers and sisters who may post.

Wa`Alaaykum Salaam
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nousername
07-29-2010, 10:03 PM
actually I believe that prophet Mohamed pbuh was the first prophet who declared alcohol haram, because some men used to go do prayers drunk, and this is when it became forbidden. Pork though has always been forbidden.
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glo
07-29-2010, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
The bible doesn't even say the wine was alcoholic that Jesus(pbuh) drank
That doesn't make sense, when the very definition of wine is "a beverage made of the fermented juice of any of various kinds of grapes, usually containing from 10 to 15 percent alcohol by volume".
Jesus drank wine, not grape juice. Simple, really.
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جوري
07-29-2010, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Jesus drank wine, not grape juice. Simple, really.
you speak as if you were there? does 'god' need a drink to decompress?
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Brasco
07-29-2010, 10:20 PM
@Glo:

Yep, for sure, Jesus - peace be upon him - drank wine. :) This is something you even yourself can not believe lol
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 10:49 PM
FYI glo, I don't know why you are defending alcohol,

The bible doesn't say it was a intoxicating drink, so the wine he drank wasn't alcoholic,

so please stop defending alcohol, it makes you more close minded than usual. Btw

we are following what Jesus did, he worshipped god the way we worship 5 times a day and he didn't eat pork and didn't drink alcohol and he fasted as well.
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Suzeteo
07-29-2010, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
Christians make lame excuses on why they think pork is okay and alcohol is okay when it is clearly not. Why don't they realize this?
Christians think pork and alcohol (in moderation) are OK because our Scriptures declare them to be so.

Food: Romans 14:14 ("no food is unclean in itself")
Wine: Ecclesiastes 9:7 ("drink your wine with a joyful heart)
Drunkenness: Ephesians 5:18 ("do not get drunk on wine").

The wine Jesus drank probably contained a small amount of alcohol (nothing like the percentage in wine today) - slightly fermented wine was a much safer drinking option than water. It is difficult to make sense of Luke 7:33-34 if the wine Jesus drank was just grape juice. The emphasis in the Bible is avoiding drunkenness and drinking in the presence of those who find drinking unacceptable (and the same with gluttony and eating foods others find unacceptable).
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Brasco
07-29-2010, 11:00 PM
You can say whatever you want to! Jesus - Peace be upon him - never drank alcoholic beverages! Not even wine! Btw, the OT says that is not allow to eat pork :) So why do you eat? It is in your scripture!
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:01 PM
Excuse me but your scriptures have been changed, I even saw a verse in the bible that said " stay away from wine and strong drink" But I think your newer changed scriptures don't say that anymore lol
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
You can say whatever you want to! Jesus - Peace be upon him - never drank alcoholic beverages! Not even wine! Btw, the OT says that is not allow to eat pork :) So why do you eat? It is in your scripture!
exactly.................
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:08 PM
btw here is a link that says alcohol was forbidden in the bible http://www.salembible.org/biblestudies/alcohol_4.htm
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marwen
07-29-2010, 11:08 PM
I want to ask Christian brothers and sisters :

1) how do you see drinking (alcohol) as a behavior?
2) what do you think about a drinking prophet ?
3) what do you think about a drinking G-d ?
Reply

User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
Christians think pork and alcohol (in moderation) are OK because our Scriptures declare them to be so.

Food: Romans 14:14 ("no food is unclean in itself")
Wine: Ecclesiastes 9:7 ("drink your wine with a joyful heart)
Drunkenness: Ephesians 5:18 ("do not get drunk on wine").

The wine Jesus drank probably contained a small amount of alcohol (nothing like the percentage in wine today) - slightly fermented wine was a much safer drinking option than water. It is difficult to make sense of Luke 7:33-34 if the wine Jesus drank was just grape juice. The emphasis in the Bible is avoiding drunkenness and drinking in the presence of those who find drinking unacceptable (and the same with gluttony and eating foods others find unacceptable).
Excuse me but your scriptures have been changed, I even saw a verse in the bible that said " stay away from wine and strong drink" But I think your newer changed scriptures don't say that anymore lol
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
I want to ask Christian brothers and sisters :

1) how do you see drinking (alcohol) as a behavior?
2) what do you think about a drinking prophet ?
3) what do you think about a drinking G-d ?


exactly....................
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-29-2010, 11:14 PM
Subhaan`Allaah
Lets keep it Calm InshaAllaah
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Suzeteo
07-29-2010, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
Excuse me but your scriptures have been changed, I even saw a verse in the bible that said " stay away from wine and strong drink" But I think your newer changed scriptures don't say that anymore lol
I think you are thinking of Numbers 6:3, part of the vow of the Nazarite. Unless all Christians are required to take the vow of the Nazarite (which also involves refraining from shaving and avoiding corpses and graves) this might not be the proof-text you are looking for.
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
I think you are thinking of Numbers 6:3, part of the vow of the Nazarite. Unless all Christians are required to take the vow of the Nazarite (which also involves refraining from shaving and avoiding corpses and graves) this might not be the proof-text you are looking for.
excuse me, that link that i posted showed all of the things that said strong drink and wine are forbidden, why are you avoiding and making up another lame excuse?
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Brasco
07-29-2010, 11:27 PM
What about these two verses?

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

Alcohol is prohibited in both, christianity and islam and do not get any ideas that one of the Prophets drank alcohol, since this is foolish and baseless.
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Suzeteo
07-29-2010, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
excuse me, that link that i posted showed all of the things that said strong drink and wine are forbidden, why are you avoiding and making up another lame excuse?
I had not read the link when I posted, which is why I only referred to the passage you were thinking of in the post I replied to. If you like, I am happy to go through the other texts in the article you linked to and demonstrate that they do not declare alcohol to be forbidden (as I said previously, the Judeo-Christian Scriptures teach that drinking alcohol in moderation is OK). I will simply apply the same method (reading the verse in its co-text) to each passage. In each case either the verse will not be a universal prohibition (e.g. Numbers 6:3) or the verse will only prohibit drinking in excess (as Ephesians 5:18 teaches). Please say if you would find this helpful.
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:32 PM
the verses from that linked i posted said stay away from it meaning that you shouldn't even drink a sip of it.
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:34 PM
Numbers 6:3 - he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink: he shall drink no vinegar of wine, nor vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat grapes, fresh or dried.

this doesn't even say anything about moderate drinking
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Brasco
07-29-2010, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
Numbers 6:3 - he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink: he shall drink no vinegar of wine, nor vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat grapes, fresh or dried.

this doesn't even say anything about moderate drinking
This one is as clear as daylight! Jazak Allah kheir!
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Suzeteo
07-29-2010, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
Numbers 6:3 - he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink: he shall drink no vinegar of wine, nor vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat grapes, fresh or dried.
Who does he refer to in the passage?
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:42 PM
it doesn't it refer it to one person, it refers it to everyone that follows it.
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User_23338
07-29-2010, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
This one is as clear as daylight! Jazak Allah kheir!
exactly...........................................
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Brasco
07-29-2010, 11:56 PM
Muslims drink alcohol too. We do not wanna say that only christians do, but the problem is, christians claim that there is no alcohol and pork prohibition in the bible. We're humans, and we're always gonna fail, but we should try our best to live according to our belief otherwise we're gonna believe according to the way we live :) and that's the exact thing in christianity.
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Asiyah3
07-29-2010, 11:56 PM
Funny how some Christians give out their own theories just like that. One Christian says the law was directed for the Jews. Another says it was abrogated. Another says pigs had diseases at that time... Make a choice please. Once two ladies visited my house and asked me if I believe that the Bible is the word of God. I told her politely no, because it's been altered and corrupted by men. Then she showed me some verses of the Bible. I told her I don't believe that God would change his mind. God is All-knowing, All-wise. Then I asked her if she follows both the OT and the NT. She answered affirmatively and I praised her for that. If my memory serves me right I asked her if she wears a scarf? and I asked her why do Christians eat pork? I told her eating pork is prohibited in the Bible. She began to wonder and asked the lady behind her if she knows something about this. I doubt she had studied this matter but she tried to give me an explanation anyway. I was wondering is it so easy to speak about God without knowledge? SubhaanAllah !
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
it doesn't it refer it to one person, it refers it to everyone that follows it.
Numbers 6 is about a special vow of holiness that Israelites could make. Here are verses 1 to 4:

The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.
So "he" refers to an Israelite who has made the special vow of the Nazarite, not all people. What's more, the passage also speaks of abstinence from the consumption of anything that comes from the grapevine to such persons. So even if this verse could be interpreted as a universal prohibition, the eating and drink of all grape-related products (including vinegar, grape juice, grapes and raisins) would also be univerally prohibited. Is that your interpretation?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
What about these two verses?

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
[Proverbs 20:1]

"And be not drunk with wine."
[Ephesians 5:18]

Alcohol is prohibited in both, christianity and islam and do not get any ideas that one of the Prophets drank alcohol, since this is foolish and baseless.
Both verses prohibit drunkenness, not drinking alcohol in general (I quoted Ephesians 5:18 in my first post). Proverbs 20:1 warns against drinking to such an extent that it causes you to mock and brawl. Drinking in moderation, then, by this definition, mean drinking that does not lead to such things. Psalm 104:15 says that God has made wine to "gladden the heart of men", not to make them rude or quarrelsome.
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 12:44 AM
Since alcohol leads to intoxication, it's clearly prohibited.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by marwen
I want to ask Christian brothers and sisters :

1) how do you see drinking (alcohol) as a behavior?
2) what do you think about a drinking prophet ?
3) what do you think about a drinking G-d ?
Christians believe that everything that YHWH has created is intrinsically good. As I noted in my reply to Brasco, Psalm 114 shows that wine is part of his good creation, and like all of YHWH's gift of creation is to be used wisely. Just as we should eat in moderation, we should also drink in moderation. Eating and drinking are YHWH's gifts to be enjoyed together in the celebration of the goodness of YHWH and His creation (especially the company of others!) and to remember the way YHWH has blessed the world (significantly the love demonstrated by Jesus through his life and death). Jesus loved such occasions, which he shared with everyone from tax collectors to prostitutes as part of celebrating the good news of the breaking in of YHWH's Kingdom.

So drinking in moderation is a good thing, for us, for Prophets, even for Jesus, YHWH in the flesh, because YHWH has created all things to be good and to be used wisely. YHWH is glorified when His goodness and the goodness of His creation and blessings are celebrated and enjoyed in community.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
Since alcohol leads to intoxication, it's clearly prohibited.
Eating leads to obesity. Is food therefore also prohibited?
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 02:02 AM
O dear Christian, you're funny lol if you want to, you could abstain from food lol if one eats food excessively, then it's prohibited :) But we are talking about more ill-effects than obesity. Being drunk (may) also harm(s) other people in your environment.
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Darth Ultor
07-30-2010, 02:07 AM
The Torah never says alcohol is forbidden. It's only forbidden to be drunk when entering the temple to make a sacrifice. But there were certain Jews called Nazerites who took a special religious oath not to drink wine, not to cut their hair, not to shave their beards, and a bunch of other things. Samson was one of those people. Delilah cut his hair when he was sleeping and that ultimately resulted in Samson's death.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
O dear Christian, you're funny lol if you want to, you could abstain from food lol if one eats food excessively, then it's prohibited :) But we are talking about more ill-effects than obesity. Being drunk (may) also harm(s) other people in your environment.
Why is it not the same with alcohol? Why cannot one drink alcohol in moderation the same way that food can be eaten in moderation? Eating food excessively can equally harm others.
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Darth Ultor
07-30-2010, 02:09 AM
Not to mention, why is smoking not haraam?
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Not to mention, why is smoking not haraam?
Smoking, drinking, using drugs etc. are all haraam.
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
Why is it not the same with alcohol? Why cannot one drink alcohol in moderation the same way that food can be eaten in moderation? Eating food excessively can equally harm others.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6106570.stm

The harmful effects of alcohol are well-known. In no way can it be compared with eating food.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
The harmful effects of alcohol are well-known. In no way can it be compared with eating food.
The article contains many excellent examples of excessive drinking. Both alcohol and food can be consumed excessively, and the harmful effects of over-eating are equally well-known. Is that not a valid comparison?
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
The article contains many excellent examples of excessive drinking. Both alcohol and food can be consumed excessively, and the harmful effects of over-eating are equally well-known. Is that not a valid comparison?
You know, there's this binge drinking and one may never come out of a coma, but as far as I know there's no binge eating lol so which one is more harmful?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
You know, there's this binge drinking and one may never come out of a coma, but as far as I know there's no binge eating lol so which one is more harmful?
Search for "Binge eating" in Google. Not only is "binge eating" a well-known phrase but it gives only slightly fewer results than "binge drinking" does. And it's not a question of whether one is more harmful than another (that is a red herring) - the question is whether alcohol consumption is intrinsically wrong or whether (like with food) consumption in moderation is OK.
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
The article contains many excellent examples of excessive drinking. Both alcohol and food can be consumed excessively, and the harmful effects of over-eating are equally well-known. Is that not a valid comparison?
So do you think we should forward these drinks to teenagers? and kids why not? :rollseyes
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 02:49 AM
Kids eat food right? :rolleyes:
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 02:50 AM
I really do not understand why you defend drinking alcohol. Don't you see the effects on the humans? don't you see the youth? don't you see the car accidents due to drink-driving? and so on! I guess, you gotta feel it on your own, then you'll know it why alcohol is harmful. There's a proverb in German: "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen!" --> If you don't want to listen, find out the hard way :)
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
So do you think we should forward these drinks to teenagers? and kids why not? :rollseyes
We don't feed babies solid food until they are sufficiently developed. It is the same with alcohol. Unless someone is both physically developed enough to consume alcohol safely and mature enough to drink wisely then they shouldn't drink alcohol.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
I really do not understand why you defend drinking alcohol. Don't you see the effects on the humans? don't you see the youth? don't you see the car accidents due to drink-driving? and so on! I guess, you gotta feel it on your own, then you'll know it why alcohol is harmful. There's a proverb in German: "Wer nicht hören will, muss fühlen!" --> If you don't want to listen, find out the hard way :)
I defend drinking alcohol in moderation. I deplore drinking it in excess and drinking unwisely. You are setting up a straw man.
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 03:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
We don't feed babies solid food until they are sufficiently developed. It is the same with alcohol. Unless someone is both physically developed enough to consume alcohol safely and mature enough to drink wisely then they shouldn't drink alcohol.
Why is that? A 16-year-old isn't a kid anymore. They could drink "moderately" and "safely and wisely" as you said. Do I have to dig statistics to show how mature adults consume alcohol "safely and wisely"?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
Why is that? A 16-year-old isn't a kid anymore. They could drink "moderately" and "safely and wisely" as you said. Do I have to dig statistics to show how mature adults consume alcohol "safely and wisely"?
If a 16-year-old is sufficiently physically developed and willing and able to drink responsibly then I have no issue with that. What I take issue with is people who are unwilling but able to drink responsibly. Alcohol (like food, sex, or pretty much anything else that is intrinsically good) can be harmful when misused. What I am saying (and what the Bible teaches) is that it is the misuse of alcohol that is wrong, not alcohol itself.
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Rabi Mansur
07-30-2010, 03:16 AM
:sl:

If I might, can I defend the Christians and Jews? I think the point is well taken that the bible has teachings that are against excessive alcohol and teachings that allow for consumption. The teachings against alcohol tend to discourage drunkeness, excessive drinking, etc. In the OT the only teaching that outright says don't drink at all applies to those taking a Nazarite vow. The Jews have a long history of wine being involved in worship and it is not forbidden anywhere in the Torah (at least I've never read anything like that).

OTOH Paul told Timothy in the NT to drink a little wine for his belly from time to time. Jesus turned water into wine. As part of the Lord's supper, they drank wine. Jesus was criticized because his disciples did not fast but they were eating and drinking. Wine has always been a part of the Eucharist and is not outright forbidden anywhere in the NT. And as a side note, if it is called wine, then it has alchohol by definition.

So, is it any wonder that Jews and Christians allow for responsible consumption of alcohol? They condemn drunkeness of course and excessive drinking has always been condemned.

Now, along comes Muhammad pbuh some 600 or so years after Jesus. In the early years of his being a prophet, alcohol was not outright condemned IIRC. Later, based on what was revealed to him in the Qur'an alcohol was forbidden. And his followers in Madinah were willing to pour out their alcohol and follow the Messenger of Allah. As the final Messenger, he revealed Allah's will and this IMHO abrogated what was previously revealed. This was based on new scripture.

Any good Muslim will avoid alcohol because he follows what is written in the Qur'an and what was taught by Muhammad pbuh.

But since the Christians and Jews do not believe in the Qur'an they follow what is written in the Bible. And the Bible does not outright disallow alcohol. Pretty simple really.

I don't think it does any good to call Christians and Jews close-minded. If anything it reflects on the one who insists on calling them close-minded.

:wa:
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
If a 16-year-old is sufficiently physically developed and willing and able to drink responsibly then I have no issue with that.
Then I thank God you're not my father.

What I take issue with is people who are unwilling but able to drink responsibly. Alcohol (like food, sex, or pretty much anything else that is intrinsically good) can be harmful when misused. What I am saying (and what the Bible teaches) is that it is the misuse of alcohol that is wrong, not alcohol itself.
Did you know that alcohol causes addiction?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
Then I thank God you're not my father.
On what grounds would you say that a responsible and sufficiently physically developed human being should not drink alcohol?

Did you know that alcohol causes addiction?
Excessive alcohol causes addiction. So does food. When eaten excessively.
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 03:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
On what grounds would you say that a responsible and sufficiently physically developed human being should not drink alcohol?
On the grounds that I love my child and don't want him to lose his brain.

http://www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/effects-of-alcohol-2

http://www.drinkaware.co.uk/facts/health-facts

Excessive alcohol causes addiction. So does food. When eaten excessively.
????? Do you support smoking and drugs as well? ^^

EDIT: I'm sorry I meant moderate* smoking and drugs.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
On the grounds that I love my child and don't want him to lose his brain.
Do you understand the distinction I have been consistently making between consumption of alcohol and excessive consumption of alcohol? Do you understand that those articles talk about the harmful effects of excessive consumption of alcohol not consumption of alcohol? Drinking in moderation doesn't cause "brain loss".


????? Do you support smoking and drugs as well? ^^
No, because there is no difference between smoking and smoking excessively (and the same with drugs).
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
Do you understand the distinction I have been consistently making between consumption of alcohol and excessive consumption of alcohol? Do you understand that those articles talk about the harmful effects of excessive consumption of alcohol not consumption of alcohol? Drinking in moderation doesn't cause "brain loss".
So those things listed don't occur with consumption of alcohol?

No, because there is no difference between smoking and smoking excessively (and the same with drugs).
There is a difference with smoking once a week and daily. You may be interested in this brother's posts about marihuana:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...m-my-life.html

EDIT: I should probably go to sleep now. I'll respond to you tomorrow insha'Allah.
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nousername
07-30-2010, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rabi Mansur
:sl:

If I might, can I defend the Christians and Jews? I think the point is well taken that the bible has teachings that are against excessive alcohol and teachings that allow for consumption. The teachings against alcohol tend to discourage drunkeness, excessive drinking, etc. In the OT the only teaching that outright says don't drink at all applies to those taking a Nazarite vow. The Jews have a long history of wine being involved in worship and it is not forbidden anywhere in the Torah (at least I've never read anything like that).

OTOH Paul told Timothy in the NT to drink a little wine for his belly from time to time. Jesus turned water into wine. As part of the Lord's supper, they drank wine. Jesus was criticized because his disciples did not fast but they were eating and drinking. Wine has always been a part of the Eucharist and is not outright forbidden anywhere in the NT. And as a side note, if it is called wine, then it has alchohol by definition.

So, is it any wonder that Jews and Christians allow for responsible consumption of alcohol? They condemn drunkeness of course and excessive drinking has always been condemned.

Now, along comes Muhammad pbuh some 600 or so years after Jesus. In the early years of his being a prophet, alcohol was not outright condemned IIRC. Later, based on what was revealed to him in the Qur'an alcohol was forbidden. And his followers in Madinah were willing to pour out their alcohol and follow the Messenger of Allah. As the final Messenger, he revealed Allah's will and this IMHO abrogated what was previously revealed. This was based on new scripture.

Any good Muslim will avoid alcohol because he follows what is written in the Qur'an and what was taught by Muhammad pbuh.

But since the Christians and Jews do not believe in the Qur'an they follow what is written in the Bible. And the Bible does not outright disallow alcohol. Pretty simple really.

I don't think it does any good to call Christians and Jews close-minded. If anything it reflects on the one who insists on calling them close-minded.

:wa:
This is what I was trying to say when I posted, but you said it much better than me. Alcohol was not implicitly forbidden until the time of Prophet Mohamed pbuh.
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 04:19 AM
Suzeteo, you try to justify this saying it's only dangerous on excess. But what do you mean by excess? You know, drinking alcohol for ten years on a daily basis and even if it's little, it's still excessive. You know there's no benchmark of excess, so everyone could drink the he wants and say "hey this ain't excessive". Everyone has got their own benchmark, so do not justify it with excess. All in all, everyone knows it drugs and alcohol are harmful.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 04:21 AM
[QUOTE=**muslimah**;1354596]So those things listed don't occur with consumption of alcohol?
No, not in general. Only excessive drinking (as shown by the phrases "heavy drinking", "too much alcohol", etc. in the articles) has harmful effects.

There is a difference with smoking once a week and daily.
Yes there is a difference in degree (just as increasing alcohol intake above a certain level increases the number and severity of harmful effects), but any amount of smoking, no matter how infrequently, is damaging (and the same with marijuana).

EDIT: I should probably go to sleep now. I'll respond to you tomorrow insha'Allah.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 04:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
So those things listed don't occur with consumption of alcohol?
No, not in general. Only excessive drinking (as shown by the phrases "heavy drinking", "too much alcohol", etc. in the articles) has harmful effects.

There is a difference with smoking once a week and daily.
Yes there is a difference in degree (just as increasing alcohol intake above a certain level increases the number and severity of harmful effects), but any amount of smoking, no matter how infrequently, is damaging (and the same with marijuana).

EDIT: I should probably go to sleep now. I'll respond to you tomorrow insha'Allah.
I'm starting to mess up my quotes now, so probably the same for me! Thanks for the discussion, and look forward to more.
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glo
07-30-2010, 08:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Brasco
@Glo:

Yep, for sure, Jesus - peace be upon him - drank wine. :) This is something you even yourself can not believe lol
Friede sei mit Dir, Brasco

I am not sure how you can know what I do and don't believe. Do you have special powers?

format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
The bible doesn't even say the wine was alcoholic that Jesus(pbuh) drank
As you can see, it was MrKhan who first mentioned that Jesus drank wine. So it seems that he, as a Muslim, also believes that Jesus drank wine ... but somehow it was special non-alcoholic wine ...
The point I was making is that wine - by it's definition - is an alcoholic drink.
If it wasn't, it would be grape juice.


I think other people have pointed out rightly that the drinking of alcohol was permitted in the Old Testament. People did drink alcohol, apart from those who had taken special vows.
Prohibiting the consumption of alcohol was only eventually introduced by Muhammad, it had not been a law before then.
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Ramadhan
07-30-2010, 08:15 AM
Alcohol has a direct toxic, as well as sedative effect on the body. It affects principally the frontal lobe of the brain, which houses the mechanisms for reason, judgment and willpower.

Alcohol has been the scourge of human society since time immemorial. It's earning a lot of money yearly and taking million human lives. Alcohol is the root cause of several problems facing society. Many Crimes are taken place for Alcoholic people. It causes many physical problems including mental illness, short-term memory loss, reduces performance. Its also a known fact that alcohol has been one of the world's greatest destroyers. Its terrible violent consequences are felt all over the world.

Prohibition of alcohol in the Bible:
Some Bible quotations:

Proverbs 20:1
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverb 23:20-21
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh: For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

Proverbs 23:30
They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

Proverbs 31:4-7
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
[So drink affects ones judgments and causes to die.]

Leviticus 10:9-11
Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean; And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Luke 21:34-38
And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

There are total 75 verses on Bible where Alcohol is prohibited.
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Ramadhan
07-30-2010, 08:25 AM
Christians consider Jesus as god.

Would god really promote a type drink which is deadly and has extremely negative direct impacts on millions and millions of life and many more lives indirectly?

something to ponder for christians, that is if they are honest with themselves
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Ramadhan
07-30-2010, 08:29 AM
In my opinion, christians have always outright changed their scriptures or misinterpretate them in order to justify their lifestyles, starting from Paul who wrote things to make jesus teachings' more palatable to the pagan latins/romans who worshiped multiple gods to these days where homosexuality is considered acceptable by churches.
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Rhubarb Tart
07-30-2010, 01:11 PM
Hmmm shouldn’t this topic be on comparative section?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:07 PM
Have you read the thread? What do you make of Rabi Mansur's summary of the Bible's teaching?
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:09 PM
Perhaps you could provide an example to back up your assertion.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:10 PM
EDIT: This was meant to be a reply to naidamar's first post.
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 02:13 PM
I think YHWH encourages the responsible use of all the good things He gives us, as I described previously (that is certainly what the Bible teaches).
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
I think YHWH encourages the responsible use of all the good things He gives us, as I described previously (that is certainly what the Bible teaches).
Are you against getting drunk during holidays? New Year's eve? May Day? Midsummer's Day?
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User_23338
07-30-2010, 04:35 PM
what do you christians like about alcohol?

is it the taste, or is it because it has the alcohol that you want?
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Ramadhan
07-30-2010, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
what do you christians like about alcohol?

is it the taste, or is it because it has the alcohol that you want?
people who drink alcohol like them because it gives them the "buzz", and the buzz is the effect of alcohol in the bloodstreams;

same thing as people who like ingesting drugs because it gives them the "high"
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MysticRiver
07-30-2010, 05:55 PM
In my very humble opinion, this kind of threads leads us nowhere. It widens the gap between religions and we need instead to build bridges towards Islam.

I think that it's a human sign when people are close-minded and it's in no way related to religion.

Peace

Nahla
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-30-2010, 05:56 PM
Aslaamu`Alaayum

Is Alcohol permitted in Christianity even? I didnt think it would be but i dunoo
I doubt 100% Jesus peace be upon him drank Alcohol!

According to these verses below its forbidden

"wine is a mocker, intoxicating drink arouses brawling" (Proverbs 20:1).
"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor, pressing him to your bottle, even to make him drunk" (Habakkuk 2:15).
"Another interesting verse i found Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."[Corrinthians chapter 6 verse 9-10]


I think thats enough and im not trying to promote Christianity but to try and prove drinking Alcohol is forbidden in Christianity however there may be a verse which promotes Drinking in the bible but if so then the bible Contradicts itself SubhaanAllaah

But however Bible does promote Drinking
"Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [c] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom. "[Ecclesiastes 9:1-13]

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit"[Ephesians 5:18]

But on the other hand it promotes Christianity like the verse above, but forbids you to become drunken so this basically Contradicsts itself , so im in doubt i dont know whether the Bible Allows or forbids Alcohol or maybe i understood it all wrong InshaAllaah a well knowledgeable Christian can answer this i would be grateful Jazakallahu Khaayran

Sorry thread starter if i went off topic

back on topic
I find it funny well pretty much disturbing that people try to prove that Jesus the Prophet of Allaah and according to Christians their God (May God forbid) drinks Alcohol! InshaAllaah theres enough proof out there Alcohol is harmful! im not going to post any Evidence of that Indeed!

Wa `Alaaykum Salaam
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Asiyah3
07-30-2010, 06:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє
Aslaamu`Alaayum

I find it funny well pretty much disturbing that people try to prove that Jesus the Prophet of Allaah and according to Christians their God (May God forbid) drinks Alcohol! InshaAllaah theres enough proof out there Alcohol is harmful! im not going to post any Evidence of that Indeed!
:wa:

I've been taught about the harmful effects of alcohol from elementary school onward repeatedly, let alone the experienced visitors lecturing us about alcohol, and schoolbooks. It's kind of funny now you hear it's safe to drink it "as long as not excessive". I wonder why didn't they tell us this then? Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) is definitely above that.
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Brasco
07-30-2010, 06:26 PM
بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم

السلام عليكم و رحمة الله

الحمد الله


There's an interesting video on those bad and foolish things (drugs, alcohol and cig's)



And this is the site of the Sister http://alyanuri.com/products.php and the great thing is, she is ten masha'allah :) She is the author of Things Every Kid Should Know books :D
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-30-2010, 06:29 PM
^MashaAllaah Jazakallahu Khaayr for sharing
And she was 8 i believe when she started SubhaanAllaah, such an Inspiration for OLDER people to learn from InshaAllaah and for everyone not just Muslims much like Islaam , Islaam was sent for Everyone! Whole of Mankind!
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 07:23 PM
I am against getting drunk full stop.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
07-30-2010, 07:27 PM
But as a Christian or Athiest?

Obviously must be a reason, and you said said "Drunk" not that your against drinking!
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє
But as a Christian or Athiest?

Obviously must be a reason, and you said said "Drunk" not that your against drinking!
As I've said in pretty much all of my posts, I take the position that:
  • there is nothing intrinsically wrong with drinking alcohol, in fact it is a gift from YHWH;
  • drinking irresponsibly (including getting drunk and drinking in excess of healthy limits) is sinful;
  • the above are taught consistently in the Bible.
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User_23338
07-30-2010, 10:32 PM
it is wrong to drink alcohol period, you do know that if you drink alcohol moderately everyday, that basically means you are actually drinking it excessively, drinking alcohol moderately once a day is still bad for you.

when prophet jesus (pbuh) comes back, alcohol is going to be gone forever and so will pork.

i bet a lot of christians will cry when that happens lol
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Suzeteo
07-30-2010, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
it is wrong to drink alcohol period, you do know that if you drink alcohol moderately everyday, that basically means you are actually drinking it excessively, drinking alcohol moderately once a day is still bad for you.
I agree that drinking daily what is considered moderate for a day's alcohol consumption (for most people) is harmful - such frequent drinking (which comes under the category of "excessive") can cause all kinds of damage. But no studies I'm aware of suggest any increased risk of harm to someone who drinks infrequently (typically defined as less than 1 or 2 days a week) and in moderation.
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User_23338
07-31-2010, 04:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
I agree that drinking daily what is considered moderate for a day's alcohol consumption (for most people) is harmful - such frequent drinking (which comes under the category of "excessive") can cause all kinds of damage. But no studies I'm aware of suggest any increased risk of harm to someone who drinks infrequently (typically defined as less than 1 or 2 days a week) and in moderation.

even drinking it 1 or 2 days a week is still bad for you. you don't realize this do you.

now please, stop making lame excuses ok. your bible said alcohol is forbidden then it said it promotes it, this is a clear contradiction in the bible and yet you christians keep on changing the bible to make something that was originally forbidden (i.e pork and all other sinful things) and you make it permissable.

and btw you are also supposed to be fasting as well, because Jesus (pbuh) fasted as well.
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Darth Ultor
07-31-2010, 05:00 PM
I want to know where in the Torah does it say that alcohol is absolutely forbidden. The only time I read it was forbidden was on fast days and when entering the temple.
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User_23338
07-31-2010, 06:55 PM
boaz, the torah has changed so i don't think we're gonna able to find the proof now lol
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Darth Ultor
07-31-2010, 07:04 PM
No it hasn't. How do you explain the Dead Sea scrolls? Those are authentic writings.
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User_23338
07-31-2010, 07:48 PM
Yes it has, why do you believe jesus (pbuh) was a false prophet? Why do you hate him?
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Suzeteo
07-31-2010, 10:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
even drinking it 1 or 2 days a week is still bad for you. you don't realize this do you.
Do you have any evidence to support that? I would be genuinely interested.

now please, stop making lame excuses ok. your bible said alcohol is forbidden then it said it promotes it, this is a clear contradiction in the bible and yet you christians keep on changing the bible to make something that was originally forbidden (i.e pork and all other sinful things) and you make it permissable.
You have yet to demonstrate a Biblical passage that universally prohibits drinking alcohol. It prohibits excessive, irresponsible drinking.

and btw you are also supposed to be fasting as well, because Jesus (pbuh) fasted as well.
So should we model our fasting on what Jesus did (40 days and nights with no food) or as Islam teaches (29 or 30 days with food before dawn and after sunset)?

I agree that Christians should fast, but the Bible does not teach that fasting is a ritual to be carried out regularly. It is an act of seeking YHWH's salvation in a time of need (and any time), which has to come out of a prayerful and repentant heart (see Isaiah 58).
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Suzeteo
07-31-2010, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MrKhan89
boaz, the torah has changed so i don't think we're gonna able to find the proof now lol
Perhaps you could help us "find the proof" that the Torah has changed. If your only evidence is the Qur'an, then please quote a passage that teaches that the Torah has changed.
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Seeker1066
07-31-2010, 10:51 PM
It appears the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) forbid Alcohol in stages as God revealed it to him. We find in "Surah 2:219

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
." Thus Muuhamad(Pbuh) at first restricted Muslims from prayer if drinking. The Next verse "Surah 4:43

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say....." Than the last forbids all alcohol use "Surah 5:90

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper."
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Suzeteo
07-31-2010, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Seeker1066
It appears the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) forbid Alcohol in stages as God revealed it to him. We find in "Surah 2:219

They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
." Thus Muuhamad(Pbuh) at first restricted Muslims from prayer if drinking. The Next verse "Surah 4:43

O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say....." Than the last forbids all alcohol use "Surah 5:90

O ye who believe ! wine and the game of chance and idols and divining arrows are only the abomination of Satan's handiwork. So shun each one of them that you may prosper."
Thank you for these ayat. Why do you think Allah left it until Muhammad's day to warn mankind that wine is "Satan's handiwork"?
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Seeker1066
08-01-2010, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suzeteo
Thank you for these ayat. Why do you think Allah left it until Muhammad's day to warn mankind that wine is "Satan's handiwork"?
Perhaps the time had come. Both the Jews and Christians had warnings against alcohol abuse. Muhammad(Pbuh) was sent to correct errors that had crept into Judaism and Christianity. Perhaps God felt this was the correct time to prohibit alcohol. I see his gradual prohibition as a wise way to not drive away Muslims until they were steadfast in the faith as this was a hard teaching for many. This is just my opinion however.
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