Not your average dating question (or maybe it is?!)

[AntiKarateKid]

Right. Fornications bad. I totally agree. What I disagree with is how marriage is shoved onto us. I personally am looking for someone but am not ready financially for marriage. That being said...

Why is it that meeting with a person in public places and seeing if you are compatible (without sex etc) is wrong? I'm supposed to spend eternity with this person. Why can't I know them on a deeper level than my male friends?

Doesn't it bother people when you say "bro to control your urges get married", "there is no love before marriage"

So I'm supposed to marry someone I don't love to fulfill basic carnal needs?

[Insecured soul]

Right. Fornications bad. I totally agree. What I disagree with is how marriage is shoved onto us. I personally am looking for someone but am not ready financially for marriage. That being said...

Why is it that meeting with a person in public places and seeing if you are compatible (without sex etc) is wrong? I'm supposed to spend eternity with this person. Why can't I know them on a deeper level than my male friends?

Doesn't it bother people when you say "bro to control your urges get married", "there is no love before marriage"

So I'm supposed to marry someone I don't love to fulfill basic carnal needs?

who told you u would end up spending eternity with ur spouse? in general what if the wife ends up in hellfire or the husband?
there is no surety the whole family will go in jannah

regarding your marriage, i dont know what i can say, may be u can tell ur parents to search for a girl and also u try to save money for ur marriage?


btw ur userid is amusing, no hard feelings :)


salaam alaikum

[cat eyes]

:sl:
Who told you in islam that you can't get to know a person before marriage? you can as long as there is a wali present. find someone whom your attracted to and the love will soon develop.. you can spend as long as you want getting to know some one as long as there is mehram present, maybe your not weak person thats fine but how do you know the girl might have the urge to do more with you while both of you are alone? so its foolish to take such risks.

may Allah guide you ameen
:wa:

[manaal]

^ good point. You could also chat with her over the phone. In my culture we usually have arranged marriages and the man and woman are allowed to talk to each other over the phone before making a decision.

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[Woodrow]

:sl:

I doubt if it is possible to actually love a person of the opposite gender until after marriage. Dating often blinds a person and what they come to see is unending love, is actually short term lust. Love does not come, it has to be earned and worked for 24/7 and this is not possible until after marriage.

The "Dating Game" is just that---a game. Games end and you usually have a winner and a looser.

[Salahudeen]

I think when you go through trials together as husband and wife, when you raise kids together and go through hardships together sticking by each other pulling each other through and comforting each other then that's when the real strong love comes.

[AntiKarateKid]

Thanks for the replies all around. I am always scared that asking these questions might spread fitna if my thoughts turn out to be wrong. Let me just say that I'm glad I came back to LI.

Anywhoo, about the mahram. I find the idea of a big bearded uncle breathing down my back as I talk to his daughter extremely awkward and stifling for any meaningful conversation. If we're in a public place, what's the need for one?

My idea of dating is taking to the girl in social settings. If we get along enough after a while, if shes muslim I'd ask her if it'd be awkward for me to ask her parents for permission to take her out. If I get the green light, then cool. I'd keep it halal, see if our personalities and views of life match and go for marriage when we feel ready. If no, well then it gets complicated. I consider myself a practicing Muslim, and if shes interested in me but her parents reject me for no real islamic reason its up to the daughter I feel. Parents cant force marriage on her. What do ya think?


@ bro Insecured: My username is because I cant stand the Karatekid and if me and him were the same age, I'd challenge him to an epic battle. Being myself I'd surely defeat him, thus earning me the title Anti-Karatekid!

[أحمد]

:sl:

:sl:

I doubt if it is possible to actually love a person of the opposite gender until after marriage. Dating often blinds a person and what they come to see is unending love, is actually short term lust. Love does not come, it has to be earned and worked for 24/7 and this is not possible until after marriage.

The "Dating Game" is just that---a game. Games end and you usually have a winner and a looser.

Very true; many people fail to understand this, so they end up in the game.

Instead of thinking about potential spouse, if people are to drown in an illusion built on the foundations of a fantastic love; they need to cut down on their fiction reading and concentrate on the guidelines set by Islam.

I understand that fiction is given the position of truth in various parts of western education system, especially at school level. This is why there maybe people who think fantastic means good, rather than knowing its real meaning, which is UNREAL.

All this reminds me of secondary school education system, where there are more young teachers who try to act "cool" by using slang terms, which in the real sense have a different meaning altogether. "That was wicked!" is supposed to mean that was good. Doesn't wicked mean evil?

Antonymous use of words and phrases confuses youngsters enough.

Social demoralisation is a growing problem; its not wise to join a problem, but it is to try to solve it or be part of its solution. The only true solution to this problem is the guidance given by Allah and taught by the Rasool :saws1:

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

Thanks for the replies all around. I am always scared that asking these questions might spread fitna if my thoughts turn out to be wrong. Let me just say that I'm glad I came back to LI.

Anywhoo, about the mahram. I find the idea of a big bearded uncle breathing down my back as I talk to his daughter extremely awkward and stifling for any meaningful conversation. If we're in a public place, what's the need for one?

My idea of dating is taking to the girl in social settings. If we get along enough after a while, if shes muslim I'd ask her if it'd be awkward for me to ask her parents for permission to take her out. If I get the green light, then cool. I'd keep it halal, see if our personalities and views of life match and go for marriage when we feel ready. If no, well then it gets complicated. I consider myself a practicing Muslim, and if shes interested in me but her parents reject me for no real islamic reason its up to the daughter I feel. Parents cant force marriage on her. What do ya think?


@ bro Insecured: My username is because I cant stand the Karatekid and if me and him were the same age, I'd challenge him to an epic battle. Being myself I'd surely defeat him, thus earning me the title Anti-Karatekid!

It doesn't have to be the big bearded uncle, it could be the big bearded brother.

As for forced marriage, it has no place in Islam.

:wa:

[Abdul Wahid]

Assalamu'alaykum

Firstly there is no such thing as dating in Islam.

Secondly there really is no need to rush in getting married. It's a massive commitment. Ofcourse when your ready (financially) then yeah look around or get your family to help you look for a suitable partner. Also don't get married straight-away, talk to her in the presence of her wali. Get to know her. Or you can take your sister/mum to these 'meetings'. Atleast your not alone. Never be alone with a woman. When people start 'dating' thinking its OK because were getting to know each other and they are alone then its a temptation towards wrong-doing One thing leads to another. Plus its haram. You can be the strongest Muslim in terms of imaan, piety etc but being alone together is not the answer.

The Prophet(SAW) also reportedly said, "Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them."

I'm at uni and I've seen the things Muslims get up to when there alone as 'friends'. It's so bad. Believe me you don't want to take the risk.

As Muslims we should follow the commands of the Qur'an (24:30-31) at all times to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty...." Islam recognizes that we are human and are given to human weakness, so this rule provides safeguards for our own sake.

Seriously there is no such thing as love before marriage. It's just a saying. Real love is when your married as brother squiggle has mentioned.

You do it a the HALAL way and you will see the benefits InshaALLAH. Firstly do dua to ALLAH(SWT) to help you find the right person. So start the hunt in search of a pious practicing woman through family. Get to know her in the presence of a mahram. If its working out good, families can get to know each other.

Before making a final decision, both of you can pray Salat Istikhara to seek ALLAH's help and guidance.

Both of you can agree to pursue marriage or go your separate ways. Islam has given the freedom to both men and women, that you cannot be forced into a marriage that you don't want.

Going through family way is the best way because it helps ensure the strength of the marriage. Family involvement in the choice of a marriage partner helps assure that the choice is not based on a lovey dovey romantic story but instead of a careful evaluation of the compatibility of the partner. This is one of the reasons why such marriages are often successful in the long-term.

[AntiKarateKid]

Bro Wahid, one thing about your post really bugs me. How can you say there is no such thing as love before marriage. I am sure the Prophet pbuh loved the people he chose for marriage. Everything can be abused. Love before marriage can be abused. But the possibility does not make it haram.

[Abdul Wahid]

Bro Wahid, one thing about your post really bugs me. How can you say there is no such thing as love before marriage. I am sure the Prophet pbuh loved the people he chose for marriage. Everything can be abused. Love before marriage can be abused. But the possibility does not make it haram.

Yes I do agree that it doesn't make it haram. What is love to you? What's your definition of love?

Maybe I should have put it like this. You can like someone because they are attractive and by getting to know them. You think your in love or perhaps you are in love because they are your ideal partner. But my understanding is that true love is acquired when your married and when your living together as brother squiggle has mentioned. That's my understanding. Everyone is different. People often are in love before marriage and get married to avoid committing sins.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Bro Wahid, one thing about your post really bugs me. How can you say there is no such thing as love before marriage. I am sure the Prophet pbuh loved the people he chose for marriage. Everything can be abused. Love before marriage can be abused. But the possibility does not make it haram.

There's a big difference between liking someone's personality and humbleness to loving someone before marriage.
Brother Woodrow summed it up beautifully, "Love does not come, it has to be earned and worked for 24/7 and this is not possible until after marriage."

:wa:

[Asiyah3]

:sl:

I agree with brother Woodrow.

That person you date may not be the same person after marriage. What will you do if your or her expectations aren't met?

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam Alaykum

Why is it that meeting with a person in public places and seeing if you are compatible (without sex etc) is wrong?

Firstly , this goes aginast Quran and Sunnah .

Secondly , there is no gurantee that marriage will take place between these 2. Also , How many times and with how many would be wife/ husband Muslims should spend time like this ?

Thirdly . If people see a woman spending time with a man alone , surely it will give them a bad impression about the sister . Then there is a risk that she won't get any good proposal in future. Though it's not permitted for men also , mainly people condemn sisters .


There could be more wisdom behind the bar against spending time with
opposite sex alone ( without wali ) . Why not talk to would be wife in front of her wali ?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:

Thanks for the replies all around. I am always scared that asking these questions might spread fitna if my thoughts turn out to be wrong. Let me just say that I'm glad I came back to LI.

Anywhoo, about the mahram. I find the idea of a big bearded uncle breathing down my back as I talk to his daughter extremely awkward and stifling for any meaningful conversation. If we're in a public place, what's the need for one?

let me get this straight. you (not you personally, just speaking in general) cant face a man, so you decide it would be better to brainwash the sister instead? becuase women are more naive and weak right? and if the guy isn't there, then she is sure to fall you because our mahrams are big bad men who brainwash us right? get out.

im sorry, i really don't mean to have a go at you, but comments like that just make my blood boil.

on topic:
you have every right to marry someone you are comfortable with and she comfortable with you. however you shouldn't make the mistake by thinking that Islam doesn't allow this and/or the only way you can feel comfortable with one another is by breaking any guidelines. it is possible to marry someone you are comfortable with and have her dad/mahrams present.

i sort of get the feeling sometimes when people ask these type of question, that these type of questions are stemmed from an ignorant culture which practically outlaws any type pf feelings between males and females and think it is something absurd.

these ideas are ludicrous and unrealistic. you dont have to marry anyone you dont want and neither does your wife. you should feel at ease with who ever you decide to marry...there is no harm in that.

you can manage to ask questions/get to know the sister with the presence of her mahram? alternatively you can do thorough background checks...don't rely too much on people in these matters more then what is necessary otherwise you risk getting wires crossed. use as little people to help you find out about the sister/ask her questions as per necessary. try getting someone reliable and fair (i cant emphasis that enough)...often people use their female mahrams to talk with the girl/her family.

im not sure what you mean by falling in love before marriage and if you really mean that to be some type of inclination, but marriage doesn't equal love and love doesn't equal marriage. you don't need to be in love with your spouse to marry them, you just need a decent level of respect for one another, abit of attraction/emotional inclination and a few things in common.
often people make the mistake that one needs to be in love with their potential to marry them, but love comes years after marriage. it literally takes years to build.

My idea of dating is taking to the girl in social settings. If we get along enough after a while, if shes muslim I'd ask her if it'd be awkward for me to ask her parents for permission to take her out. If I get the green light, then cool. I'd keep it halal, see if our personalities and views of life match and go for marriage when we feel ready. If no, well then it gets complicated. I consider myself a practicing Muslim, and if shes interested in me but her parents reject me for no real islamic reason its up to the daughter I feel. Parents cant force marriage on her. What do ya think?

but if her parents say no, what next? what can you do? i mean are you expecting her to run away with you or something.

the thing is with your method, there is that emotional attraction/lovey dovey unrealistic story. 2 people get attracted, they cant be with each other for whatever reasons. they either both wait for one another, or one gets sick of the other/their families to get around and so they move on leaving the other in a mess.

the key is winning the heart of the wali first not the girl...well its important to win both their hearts over, but people often fall in the trap of jumping the gun and someone can get hurt.

[Alpha Dude]

I think when you go through trials together as husband and wife, when you raise kids together and go through hardships together sticking by each other pulling each other through and comforting each other then that's when the real strong love comes.

^ this.

I understand your position AKK, but we have to let go of any preconceived notions of what love means in the west. It's usually the romantic stuff that is in our minds prior to marriage.

As an off-topic question, something that's been on my mind lately - who's the better husband: A guy that brings flowers for his wife and writes poems of love everyday whilst relying on her for income/runs a joint income house or a guy that busts his gut doing overtime and fulfils his islamic obligation so that the wife doesn't need to burden herself yet isn't into all the romantic airy fairy stuff?

I would hazard a guess and say there are a multitude of sisters out there who have been reading too many trashy novels that they'd prefer the first guy. :hmm:

[manaal]

Bro Wahid, one thing about your post really bugs me. How can you say there is no such thing as love before marriage. I am sure the Prophet pbuh loved the people he chose for marriage. Everything can be abused. Love before marriage can be abused. But the possibility does not make it haram.

Of course there can be love before marriage. If the person is the one for you you'd know at once. That's how it was for my elder sis. My younger sis was not so sure when we first got her to meet the guy (mainly because he was so nervous and didn't know what to say!), so we arranged a phone call and she asked all sorts of questions, like what his religious views are, his interests, his job etc., And she said OK after that.

And why do you picture a mahram with a big beard? Is that a qualification to be mahram? I'm sure you can find a small bearded or unbearded mahram!

[Cabdullahi]

My idea of dating is taking to the girl in social settings. If we get along enough after a while, if shes muslim I'd ask her if it'd be awkward for me to ask her parents for permission to take her out. If I get the green light, then cool. I'd keep it halal,

but the devil doesnt want you to keep it halal...so it will be something like this... you take her out then 'why dont you come to my place we'll have dinner'' then 'sister relax take of your jacket'' then before you know it BAM!

you have to shut up shop...give no chances for the devil to do his business.

[Cabdullahi]

:sl:

let me get this straight. you (not you personally, just speaking in general) cant face a man,

what you just did there is clever masha'Allah!....

[manaal]

^ this.

I understand your position AKK, but we have to let go of any preconceived notions of what love means in the west. It's usually the romantic stuff that is in our minds prior to marriage.

As an off-topic question, something that's been on my mind lately - who's the better husband: A guy that brings flowers for his wife and writes poems of love everyday whilst relying on her for income/runs a joint income house or a guy that busts his gut doing overtime and fulfils his islamic obligation so that the wife doesn't need to burden herself yet isn't into all the romantic airy fairy stuff?

I would hazard a guess and say there are a multitude of sisters out there who have been reading too many trashy novels that they'd prefer the first guy. :hmm:

All women aren't airheads! You are one for thinking we are. This is the problem with men. You can't balance two roles at once. what's stopping a man from being the bread winner and romantic at the same time????

[Alpha Dude]

All women aren't airheads! You are one for thinking we are. This is the problem with men.

Read my post carefully, sister. I did not say all women were airheads:

I would hazard a guess and say there are a multitude of sisters out there who have been reading too many trashy novels that they'd prefer the first guy. :hmm:

Kindly don't assume to know something about what I think especially after I've already made it clear.

You can't balance two roles at once. what's stopping a man from being the bread and romantic at the same time????

Of course a man can do both. What is your point, sister? Did I say otherwise? I was expressly pointing out about some of the young teen sisters who are so captivated by the notion of 'romance' that they would willfully ignore some of the more important stuff. This can't be denied . Girls of that age really are quite confused (yes, there are exceptions, I know) and we've all heard horror stories of how they get played by guys.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I would hazard a guess and say there are a multitude of sisters out there who have been reading too many trashy novels that they'd prefer the first guy.

there are men who are equally as deluded in this respect as well :hmm: not so much in the way you mention, but some men base their ideal spouse (looks, for example) on what they have seen in movies, etc.

[Alpha Dude]

there are men who are equally as deluded in this respect as well :hmm: not so much in the way you mention, but some men base their ideal spouse (looks, for example) on what they have seen in movies, etc.

No disagreement there. :)

[Rhubarb Tart]

salam

lol @ big bearded uncle breathing down your back

Who said he has to be THAT close? He can simply sit in another table whilst you talk to the sister. He doesn't have to be so close.

[AntiKarateKid]

@ Umm Sufyan

TBH I don't know what I said that apparently ticked you off. Do you really think asking the person their views on religion, life, likes and dislikes is brainwashing? Thats absolutely ridiculous. I'm not running away with anyone. Do you think taht every male you meet outside is brainwashing you if they ask about your beliefs? How does that even make sense. And who said I was too afraid to face someone. I'm being realistic. The vast majority of would be mahrams that i've seen are overprotective and intrusive. Have you ever had any deep conversations with your friends and invited your parents to eavesdrop too? Of course even when the topics are halal its awkward. People may or may not get what I'm trying to say here. It has to do with privacy.

Privacy is essential. You sit in a public place and talk. If you two don't match personality wise then dont meet again. Yea fitna could happen. But almost everything you do in life can cause fitna. A greater fitna would happen imo, if you ended up divorcing because you never actually knew the person you married.

My main problem with these replies is these:

1.You seem to be relying on the existence of ideal mahrams
2. You assume that the girl would be upfront about her beliefs and not put up a charade. What if she disagreed with her dad or brother about some important things in life. How could she express them sincerely with them shadowing her like that.
3. If Satan is the third when you two are alone, then how about when I step outside in my uni. There are many many girls there wearing revealing outfits. Satan is absolutely everywhere there. SHould I not then take walks across campus? Of course not.
4. If you hadn't noticed some of you are saying there is no love before marriage, while others are. Love as in physical attraction, you have worked or been around the person and admire their personality, etc etc. What if you marry the girl and the seemingly innocent girl infront of her mahram turns into a nut job. It is entirely your fault for making these artificial get-togethers and HOPING that what she says is the truth. When if you had spent more time doing activities with her and hanging out with her and her friends, you would have seen her true personality.

THankyou for your advice so far but these questions are still bugging me. There are so many potential wives out there but all I'm supposed to do apparantly is talk with her over the phone or infront of her parents who may have conditioned her to respond a certain way and then hope the person I'm gonna spend eternity with isn't gonna turn out to be unacceptable personality-wise and emotionally.

[manaal]

Read my post carefully, sister. I did not say all women were airheads:

Kindly don't assume to know something about what I think especially after I've already made it clear.

Of course a man can do both. What is your point, sister? Did I say otherwise? I was expressly pointing out about some of the young teen sisters who are so captivated by the notion of 'romance' that they would willfully ignore some of the more important stuff. This can't be denied . Girls of that age really are quite confused (yes, there are exceptions, I know) and we've all heard horror stories of how they get played by guys.

Fine, fine. Off topic, so I shall comment no more. :peace:

[manaal]

I know many many many people who have got married after getting to know the other in the way I have mentioned in my earlier posts. also know some who spoke only once to their potential spouse and have been living happily together for years.

Well if it doesn't suit your needs, you'll just have to do what you best think is right.

May Allah guide you on the right path and provide you with the ideal spouse. Aameen!

[Rhubarb Tart]

ameen

He still meant to have the girl's family member there. If you feel uncomfortable then the family member should sit at a distance but can still keep some eye on you in way that you feel comfortable. That way it would be halal. You can do this several to have good picture of the person if you are not sure.

[Salahudeen]

I know a couple who were dating and said they will not do zina they will keep it halal and all ways meet in public and yeah they did that for the first week or two. Then eventually one day when they met, Shaytaan finally got to them and while they were sitting in public they arranged to go somewhere private together and fulfill their desires. so you see if a mehram was present this would never have happened.

You see brother you're falling into the classic trap of shaytaan which is "HEY MAN I CAN CONTROL MYSELF WHY THE BIG DEAL" but you see no 1 intends to do zina, people don't meet with the intention of doing zina but what happens is shaytaan keeps on whispering untill eventually your over come with passion and desire and you can't resist the other person hence u end up dong zina but you never met with the intention of doing it then afterwards you dont understand how u let it happen.

Trust me there is soo many people who said "I can control myself i wont do zina with her we'll be in public then they end up going from a public setting to the back of a car or a hotel and fulfill the desires".

and they never intended this to happen they were the same people who said what is wrong with meeting in public places without a mehram they learnt what is wrong with it after shaytaan deceived them and they found themselves in the back seat of a car or a hotel.

shaytaan will eventually catch you off guard maybe at a time when both of your desires are strong and you cant resist one another. there's nothing wrong with meeting as long as a girls wali is present to ensure everything stays halal it could be her brother or dad etc and I really don't understand what is the big deal about having an elder there.

why would this be an uncomfortable situation unless you plan to talk about bedroom stuff or other haraam things with the girl. if you have a halal conversation I dont see why it would be uncomfortable to have a 3rd person there. It's as if you're suggesting that you can't get to know a person unless your alone with them, which is not true. About the tempting girls on the street yes that is fitna but are you really going to go up to one of these girls and ask to meet them alone and date them? when they're dressed like ****s.

You're comparing two different situations, one is, a girl walking round dressed like a **** and you're finding her a temptation but are you really going to go upto this girl and interview her to be your wife when she's dressed like a **** trying to attract all the men? If you try get with this girl it will only be for 1 reason and it will not be her personality it will be the effect she has on the thing thats south of your chin. So how can you compare this to the situation of interviewing a wife for marriage sitting alone with each other? Unless you're are interested in marrying these girls on campus who dress like ****s.

And the other situation is you're sitting alone with a girl who you're interested in marrying maybe thinking "this woman is amazing everything about her is perfect", laughing and joking stirring up passions not intending to do evil but will eventually fall into it. Who knows the thing thats south of your chin might even wake up when you're alone with this girl and you might eventually desire to do evil with her. But to you it will look beautified and you will get whispers like "I'm gonna marry her anyway I like her so there's no harm"

To think u can control the feelings that will arise is exactly what shaytaan wants u to think. Devil's deception. eventually he'll catch u out in a moment of passion. look at adam (saw) he never intended to eat the apple he knew it was wrong but shaytaan whispered to him and made it alluring to him and he gave in. This is why you should not even put urself in the situation in the first place, never put urself in a situation where shaytaan can whisper 2 u to do evil cos many people eventually give in to him. they fight it the first few times but after a while it comes too much.

[AntiKarateKid]

Alright. My final question is this:

1. How would you go about this process with a non-Muslim girl. Yes yes I know I should try for a Muslim. Many of these courtship actions that are being suggested are completely alien to non-Muslims.

[Salahudeen]

Alright. My final question is this:

1. How would you go about this process with a non-Muslim girl. Yes yes I know I should try for a Muslim. Many of these courtship actions that are being suggested are completely alien to non-Muslims.

But brother why would you want a non Muslim girl in the first place? do you mean you'd like someone from a different race to yours like a white or African sister? it's natural to want this, some brothers would rather marry a white sister others would rather marry a African sister some would prefer to marry an Asian sister.

If this is the case then Muslims are all races and colours you don't have to go for a non Muslim girl because she's from a particular race. For example I know a lot of Pakistani brothers want to marry a white girl but the majority of white girls are non Muslim so they decide to go after a white girl in a haraam way such as dating etc. But there is bound to be a white revert somewhere who is looking for a husband. Many reverts actually find it hard to get married because families are not accepting of them for jahil reasons.

[AntiKarateKid]

Bro I understand the difficulties associated with it and the other options available. For discussion's sake, how would one go about it.

[anonymous]

THankyou for your advice so far but these questions are still bugging me. There are so many potential wives out there but all I'm supposed to do apparantly is talk with her over the phone or infront of her parents who may have conditioned her to respond a certain way and then hope the person I'm gonna spend eternity with isn't gonna turn out to be unacceptable personality-wise and emotionally.

:sl:

I make this long post for you if you are sincerely worried you might not know the girls personality and nature whom you marry.

It does not have to be this way for you at all. There are some unfortunate people whom it happens for like that my son, but you are more sensible and careful than that insha' Allaah ji. Let me tell you son, how we are very clever in finding out everything about the girl the boy want to marry so that they do not get a shock after they are married. It is a whole process of investigations and consultations and istikharas my son. We involve all the aunti and uncle jee's.

If you sincerely worried about the personality and nature of the girl you marry and want to find out about it... then you must involve more than yourself in finding out about the girl.

Dating process is gora style..know that everyone puts on a very nice nature and personality when in presence of the boy they want to marry. And the makeup. Boy becomes blind in many many cases until he is married... but then he is already found his second half and is finished. That is why dating is not a good idea and not a good criteria to find out abt girls/boys nature in Islam [also in other cultures]. It is only coming close to the prohibitions of Allaah and putting your life of next and life of present in danger and Allaah says in Qur'aan don't even go near my prohibitions. Because when u go near the boundary line.. it very easy to step on it... and then finally step over it... and buzz *electric shock* :offended:

So there is a lot of hiqma [wisdom] in the commands of Allaah... Allaah the All wise who knows our nature more than ourselves, does not want to put u or any girl in situation where you steel her heart or she steels your heart without the hand also [in marriage]. In a situation like this, This can happen very easily and without even intending. That is why It is always wise to get the garauntee of the hand first, before you give them your heart. That way u save yourself a serious heart break... which many laakh fall into today.. and no surgery can repair. but those who follow Allaahs wisdom are protected alot from future sadness and trials. He wants to protect the girls heart from breaking and the boys legs from breaking. Allaah khair.. Allaah maaf..

This ^ all can happen through dating process to getting to know the girl. If you think this type of date is sweet like the kajoor you are mistaken my son. It might be sweet for a little while but the consequences are bitter. And if you think this type of date is the best way of finding out about your wife to be, you are also mistaken.

Now if deep down your intentions were that u really wanted to go dating and have some fun then what I hv said will make you feel miserable. You don't have to read any further and I make dua for you that Allaah make your heart be pleased with what He is pleased with.

But if your sincere intentions are that you are worried about not finding out the personality of the girl and her nature, then keep reading below what I say for there are other more smart ways of finding out about the girls nature and personality, without putting your emotions and feelings at risk. This ways are more effective and reveal much more about the person than any other.

The wise person goes into marriage with his eyes open.. and afterwards closes his eyes.

But the unwise person goes into marriage with his eyes close... and afterwards opens his eyes.

There is lot of wisdom if we contemplate and learn from mistakes of others son.

As I was saying about the other ways of finding out about personality of girl and her nature... then that way is by involving your female members of your family who get to know the girl and meet her family. And they do this over a period of some time so they know each other well. Infact, some who are really clever do this without even letting the other family know that they are interested in rishtaa [if circumstances permit].

They also meet other community people who know the family and ask them. If it is like the big pakistani communities than it is very easy because lots of connections especially through the auntie network. Everyone knows each other really well.

So we find out all we need to know about religious commitment, personality and nature. And when they [the boys family] are happy with the girl they let the boy meet her to see if he also likes her and is compatible with her and vice versa. The meeting of the boy and girl does not have to be many meetings because usually they can tell if they like each other in one or two sittings/conversations. The mahram does not have to be standing right over their heads and breathing down their backs listening to their conversation. ofcourse not. If the boy and girl want to talk they can sit in the lounge while the family or mahram sits at a distance from them at the other end of the room or leave the door open etc.. The house will be a more respectable place for boy and girl to meet than outside in restaurant or in coffee shop. And once the boy and girl find that they like each other or feel attracted to each other, then the purpose of the meeting is fulfilled which was to find this out. Usually one meeting is enough to know whether you feel attracted to someone or not. For some people they might need 2 or 3. But once they like each other.. that is it. No more meetings now, sorry son. Khalas. We know you like each other... Arrange the shadi. Again.. preventing any hardship upon the boy or girl.

And throughout this whole careful process of Homework of investigations and consultations, After all the ishtishara's.... we also perform our istikharas... we consult the Lord who knows our nature more than we know it ourselves and He also knows the girls nature more than she even knows it herself... And He knows whether both these natures will match or clash..Then under His mercy and in the presence of our family and after doing all our homework... the boy and girl can get married.

And this marriage is very beautiful and beautifully arranged.

I hope you can see now from this perspective And I hope that your Q's are not bugging you any more.

May Allaahs mercy be with you son. No auntie or uncle or mother or father wants their sons or daughters to feel they have to date get to know each other. This is not your headache or responsibility please dont worry son. This is the elders headache - and they love doing it. All your job is to see if you like the girl or boy, rest is elders job to find out about them. May Allaah give the elders the tawfeeq, and may He find you a wonderful wife insha' Allaah.

[anonymous]

Alright. My final question is this:

1. How would you go about this process with a non-Muslim girl. Yes yes I know I should try for a Muslim. Many of these courtship actions that are being suggested are completely alien to non-Muslims.

I am not really sure what you mean or your reasons for asking this question, but it depends upon the situation and the people involved and what is important in their life.

For example, in some situations a Muslim brother and non Muslim girl could like each other (e.g. maybe from the University), as has happened before. They do not have to date. The Muslim brother can explain to her that there is no dating in his religion, only marriage. And if she is okay with that, the brother tells his family and they meet the girl, get to know her, and if all goes well, then they get married. This is not alien to non Muslims, this is quite normal in their culture also. If you go 40 years back, Christians had arranged marriages.

So long as it is permissible for the man to marry this non Muslim woman [she is chaste, from the people of the book etc] and she has a good nature, there is nothing wrong with it.

Infact, if she accepts Islam, there is reward for the man if he marries her and for his family to accept her. However, if she does not accept Islam, then it is not advisable to marry her.

[Cabdullahi]

Alright. My final question is this:

1. How would you go about this process with a non-Muslim girl. Yes yes I know I should try for a Muslim. Many of these courtship actions that are being suggested are completely alien to non-Muslims.

virtually impossible , you're better off with a pious muslimah

non Muslim women cannot hold a candle to pious muslimahs! in terms of everything

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:

@ Umm Sufyan
TBH I don't know what I said that apparently ticked you off. Do you really think asking the person their views on religion, life, likes and dislikes is brainwashing?

no. the point is, is that if a guy doesn't want to mahram there, then should he be saying those things to the girl? the fact that he doesnt want another there, suggests perhaps that one may have a guilty conscious and wants to ask things he shouldn't be.

i cant think of any matter that one cant ask a potential about with her mahrams there without feeling guilty about it. and if he finds that he cant ask something, then maybe he wants to ask something that shouldn't be asked. that's my point...

especially if questions like her belief, likes and dislikes are going to be asked? i don't get it, whats so awkward about asking things like that?

Thats absolutely ridiculous. I'm not running away with anyone.

i didnt say you were but the fact of the matter that if the girls family dont agree and she wants to marry someone, then she has to do so without their permission, which may as well be on the same par as running away with the guy.

Do you think taht every male you meet outside is brainwashing you if they ask about your beliefs? How does that even make sense.

no. but what business does a random male have with a random female. what is is that he wants to ask that he has trouble asking in from of her mahrams? because all those things you mentioned there, there isnt any shame or nothing to worry about in asking them. they are perfectly legitimate.

And who said I was too afraid to face someone. I'm being realistic. The vast majority of would be mahrams that i've seen are overprotective and intrusive.

when inshallah you have daughters, you will understand why. what your seeing as overprotective just may be someone looking out for his daughter/sister. though i would have to agree that sometimes the protectiveness and intrusiveness may go a step far.

Have you ever had any deep conversations with your friends and invited your parents to eavesdrop too? Of course even when the topics are halal its awkward. People may or may not get what I'm trying to say here. It has to do with privacy.

friends are completely different from a potential. would you trust some guy to take your sister out? come on, what does that sound like to you. "hey bro im really interested in your sister. i want to speak to her, mind if i take her out." would you want that for her? would you really trust that male....if you had a daughter, could you really trust a male that he is only "asking about her beliefs." every single one of you males how the other thinks and wouldn't
ever accept that another does this to your daughters of sisters, so why think that it would be acceptably that another guy would want that for his daughter? believe it or not, alot of non-Muslim males still feel jealously over their daughters despite how he lets her go out.

correct me if im wrong, even most of you would still feel jealousy/gheerah over her when she is safe in her husbands home?

and another thing, no one wants and even on-one even cares what sort of reputation the girl will a have result of it. every father knows the reputation (or lack thereof) it would leave for his daughter if such circumstances. overprotective they maybe, but they aren't dumb.

Privacy is essential. You sit in a public place and talk. If you two don't match personality wise then dont meet again.

then shaytan will tell you "but she's so good looking" or "well she has those other good qualities about her." you keep delaying the marriage whilst your still "inquiring about her" until something (god forbid) happens. these things arent so simple...you have emotions involved. on paper they sound perfect, but people aren't made up of theories, they are made up of emtions.

Yea fitna could happen. But almost everything you do in life can cause fitna. A greater fitna would happen imo, if you ended up divorcing because you never actually knew the person you married.

again, you can get to know them through the proper means. you dont need to be madly in love with someone to marry them. this is just leaves bitter traces if you dont end end up with them. the thing is with those other fitnah you are only at fault if you know what you are doing. and you are aware of what you are doing when sitting with a sister without her mahrams. with the fitnah of the meeting of 2 people it's so at your finger tips. its not really like the other fitnahs we may face.

[AntiKarateKid]

:sl:


no. the point is, is that if a guy doesn't want to mahram there, then should he be saying those things to the girl? the fact that he doesnt want another there, suggests perhaps that one may have a guilty conscious and wants to ask things he shouldn't be.

i cant think of any matter that one cant ask a potential about with her mahrams there without feeling guilty about it. and if he finds that he cant ask something, then maybe he wants to ask something that shouldn't be asked. that's my point...

especially if questions like her belief, likes and dislikes are going to be asked? i don't get it, whats so awkward about asking things like that?

The fact is for the majority of youth who don't spend every waking moment with their parents, you have personal opinions, views, experiences that your parents may disagree with or not understand. For example, say your parents dislike african americans for no reason. Yet a perfectly pious sister comes along. I'd want to meet without a mahram and tell her the best ways to get to my parents' heart. OR if you have specific views on life that you have not shared with your parents or something happened in your social life that you don't feel comfortable discussing with them but feel that it is an important part of your dialog with your partner, you would NOT want a mahram there.

I can't believe I'm even trying to expound these points. You mean to tell me that your parents know every last shred of your private business? I don't know about you but everyone I know has a sense of privacy even from their parents.

i didnt say you were but the fact of the matter that if the girls family dont agree and she wants to marry someone, then she has to do so without their permission, which may as well be on the same par as running away with the guy.

From what I have read. A person is obligated to follow their parents on what is Islamic. If they insist on say being racist against a perfectly good pious Muslimah, I am NOT going to respect their decision/opinions. Not only this, but a person cannot be forced to marry someone by their parents. It is up to the child in the end who is the one getting married afterall.

no. but what business does a random male have with a random female. what is is that he wants to ask that he has trouble asking in from of her mahrams? because all those things you mentioned there, there isnt any shame or nothing to worry about in asking them. they are perfectly legitimate.

See above. Is privacy really that incomprehensible to you?


when inshallah you have daughters, you will understand why. what your seeing as overprotective just may be someone looking out for his daughter/sister. though i would have to agree that sometimes the protectiveness and intrusiveness may go a step far.

Now we're getting somewhere. I am totally aware of my overprotectiveness and the damage it can cause. I acknowledge it but do not think it is the right thing to do at all. There is a limit to protectiveness. Most mahrams ESPECIALLY desi ones are overbearing and intrusive and not at all conducive to proper dialogue with their daughter. Let's wipe the sunshine out of our eyes and stop thinking of them as flawless guardian angels


friends are completely different from a potential. would you trust some guy to take your sister out? come on, what does that sound like to you. "hey bro im really interested in your sister. i want to speak to her, mind if i take her out." would you want that for her? would you really trust that male....if you had a daughter, could you really trust a male that he is only "asking about her beliefs." every single one of you males how the other thinks and wouldn't
ever accept that another does this to your daughters of sisters, so why think that it would be acceptably that another guy would want that for his daughter? believe it or not, alot of non-Muslim males still feel jealously over their daughters despite how he lets her go out.

correct me if im wrong, even most of you would still feel jealousy/gheerah over her when she is safe in her husbands home?

and another thing, no one wants and even on-one even cares what sort of reputation the girl will a have result of it. every father knows the reputation (or lack thereof) it would leave for his daughter if such circumstances. overprotective they maybe, but they aren't dumb.


then shaytan will tell you "but she's so good looking" or "well she has those other good qualities about her." you keep delaying the marriage whilst your still "inquiring about her" until something (god forbid) happens. these things arent so simple...you have emotions involved. on paper they sound perfect, but people aren't made up of theories, they are made up of emtions.

You seem to consistently think up the worst possible scenarios for my view. Then make perfect "everything works out" situations for yours. Not exactly fair. Regardless, shaitan also tells boys to marry girls for their looks or sex. Well guess what? Ya'll are always saying "if you have sexual urges go get married". Really? I marry not for the person but to fulfill carnal needs? Sounds like shaitan.

again, you can get to know them through the proper means. you dont need to be madly in love with someone to marry them. this is just leaves bitter traces if you dont end end up with them. the thing is with those other fitnah you are only at fault if you know what you are doing. and you are aware of what you are doing when sitting with a sister without her mahrams. with the fitnah of the meeting of 2 people it's so at your finger tips. its not really like the other fitnahs we may face.

So a mahram is there to make sure we don't start making out all of a sudden? Being in public areas also protects against this. If we are at all worried about our reputation neither of us would do that in front of so many people. Mahram or not.

If we didn't give a hoot. A mahram can't stop a mischeivous couple from meeting alone by themselves without their knowledge.

See above in red please.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

The fact is for the majority of youth who don't spend every waking moment with their parents, you have personal opinions, views, experiences that your parents may disagree with or not understand.

so what? these are too embarrassing to ask/be discussed about in front of parents? give me a break.

For example, say your parents dislike african americans for no reason. Yet a perfectly pious sister comes along. I'd want to meet without a mahram and tell her the best ways to get to my parents' heart.

im speaking about things that are legitimately acceptable. i didnt know this is what we were discussing. Rejecting someone based on ethnicity (imo) is not legitimate and thus may require other means. this does NOT mean however meeting without a mahram and the likes. for example you can try to talk to your parents and try to make them see sense. you can talk to an elder to speak to your parents (there's usually someone who is understanding). you can speak to imam to speak to your parents.
even if those options wont work, whatever you do even if it seems to work against, dont be hasty and break whatever guidelines Islam has set.

on the side, is there is a sister you like that isn't of your culture/arent allowed to marry, shouldn't you just go ahead and propose without your family? i thought that wouldn't been the next option (as opposed to seeing the sister) because it is the male that doesn't need the wali...

OR if you have specific views on life that you have not shared with your parents or something happened in your social life that you don't feel comfortable discussing with them but feel that it is an important part of your dialog with your partner, you would NOT want a mahram there.

on one hand you raise a good point. and on the other hand :hmm: if you can’t discuss it with your parents, then why do you think a potential will be comfortable discussing it?

And the bolded part you’ve hit the nail on the head. You’ve just echoed what ive been trying to say. If its something that bad, as you said why would you want a mahram there.

From what I have read. A person is obligated to follow their parents on what is Islamic. If they insist on say being racist against a perfectly good pious Muslimah, I am NOT going to respect their decision/opinions. Not only this, but a person cannot be forced to marry someone by their parents. It is up to the child in the end who is the one getting married afterall.

see above.

See above. Is privacy really that incomprehensible to you?

you really are not understanding my point are you?

Now we're getting somewhere. I am totally aware of my overprotectiveness and the damage it can cause. I acknowledge it but do not think it is the right thing to do at all.

akhee, you seriously can’t be convincing me that a father/brother, etc allowing their daughter or sister to go out with a non-mahram is acceptable? you seriously can’t be convincing me that a male is going to let his women-folk go out so easily with another male and be comfortable with that and not think the worst (of the potential).

Again i ask if someone came up to you and said to you that he wants to see your sister without you/male relative being there...yes, what does that tell you? doesn't that in the slightest seem weird to you? The fact that he cant even sit face to face with you and discuss issues like normal with your sister, you are going to be convinced that he has the best interest of your sister at heart.

you are a male...and males are jealous and protective by nature so im having trouble swallowing that you, as a male, would find this acceptable and that you wouldn't be suspicious of why he was so adamant on meeting her in your absence. does that really sound normal to you?

its pretty enraging, no?

i agree with you that parents need to be of understanding nature towards their children and give sufficient space... but the other extreme can’t be good either. There is absolutely no convincing me that letting 2 people who are interested in one another, to go out with no greater authority will bare good results.

And another thing im getting defensive about, why is it acceptable to talk to the girl without her parents there :( do you see her as someone cheap and stupid? this is what initially ticked me right off to begin with.... i ask, is that the way you guys look at women...so unintelligent and overally softhearted like she is some kind of toy in your hands. Because this certainly is the impression im getting.

There is a limit to protectiveness. Most mahrams ESPECIALLY desi ones are overbearing and intrusive and not at all conducive to proper dialogue with their daughter. Let's wipe the sunshine out of our eyes and stop thinking of them as flawless guardian angels

Well yes, a balance is definitely advisable but do define what overprotectiveness is? What do you mean intrusive?

I can't believe I'm even trying to expound these points. You mean to tell me that your parents know every last shred of your private business? I don't know about you but everyone I know has a sense of privacy even from their parents.

are you mocking me and my parents. You better not be.

im all for talking with a potential. im all for feeling comfortable with the one you marry. im all for asking and inquiring about them in detail. i do however strongly advocate the need of mahrams and worried about why someone would feel uncomfortable with parents/mahrams there if whatever they want to say is nothing incriminating. i seriously don’t understand this.

[S_87]

what you can do which is getting common is go through the interview and just get the basic compatibility stuff, see if u like her then do JUST the nikah which is like an engagement. between then and the 'official' marraige you and your wife can get to know each other and inshaAllah fall in love. so by the time you are 'married' (ur nikahs already done so you are but not living together) you know each other and are somewhat more comfortable with each other.

Remember Allah is the one that puts love into the hearts..

[أحمد]

:sl:

what you can do which is getting common is go through the interview and just get the basic compatibility stuff, see if u like her then do JUST the nikah which is like an engagement. between then and the 'official' marraige you and your wife can get to know each other and inshaAllah fall in love. so by the time you are 'married' (ur nikahs already done so you are but not living together) you know each other and are somewhat more comfortable with each other.

Remember Allah is the one that puts love into the hearts..

Nikah is marriage.

:wa:

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam Alaykum

a reminder : it's holy Ramadan and we must avoid any hot debate with all , specially with our fellow Muslims . I request Mod to close the thread till Eid.