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Amat Allah
08-17-2010, 11:58 AM


Face-book has become a social media that everyone has and it can really be used for lots of good in promoting the Deen and other good things but unfortunately many Muslims have fallen into the trap of Shaytan by putting them selves out there in a very bad way. Women instead of guarding their modesty and beauty are putting pic's of them selves out there for the world to see and many are looking for attention from the boys and boys are doing the same thing.

Muslims are wasting hundreds of useless hours on Fitna Facebook insted of learning their Deen and forming a relationship with Allah the Almighty and his Quran and the Sunnah. In this video Eddie of TheDeenshow
will be giving a friendly reminder of what to stay away from this Ramadan and more on the matter inshallah.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Salam
I closed down my facebook but have you actually use it?

If sister were to put up their pictures, they can restrict to their friends (sisters) and family (mahram). The whole world doesn’t have to see it.

As for wasting time, time can be wasted by many other things. Facebook can be used to contact families on the other side of the world. Who is anyone to criticise someone for using facebook? It is merely a tool that can be used for good or the bad. It comes down to their intention and actions.

I haven't watched the video yet, well do.
Reply

Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 01:00 PM
The following is the best argument I've read against facebook.

In the name of Allāh, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Assalāmu ῾alaykum wa Rahmatullāhi Wabarakātuh

We thank you for seeking clarity on the matter.

In order to understand the issue at hand we must look at the matter from a few different angles. We will also take this opportunity to dispel some misconceptions about the “Facebook” boycott Fatawa.

“Facebook” is a social networking website whose description according to them is “Facebook helps you connect and share with the people in your life.” Moreover, it aims to make new relationships across the borders to give way into a global online community which revolves around the user. Essentially there is nothing wrong in this concept.

However, like every other medium of communication and social interaction, we are required to consider the Pros and Cons while establishing the Sharī῾ah Compliancy.

Telephone is an example of such a medium which is perfectly permissible, however, if the interaction is between two non Mahram (strangers) then it will become impermissible.

Similarly, if the medium of social interaction violates any Shar῾ī rules or make it extremely
difficult to maintain them, then this medium will be impermissible as well.

With regards to Facebook, Pakistan had banned it only for the time it hosted the “Everybody draw Muhammad” event. This ban was lifted afterwards. Our motive for its Boycott was not primarily for hosting this event, rather for being deliberately negligent in taking appropriate measures and removing the page.

According to the Terms and Conditions of Facebook under the title of “Safety” it states,
“7. You will not post content that: is hateful, threatening, or pornographic; incites violence; or contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.”[1]

This is further explained in a correspondence to a user who promoted Hitler in order to test the double standards of Facebook. Facebook wrote:

“We do not tolerate hate speech.
Targeting people based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, or disease is a serious violation of our standards and has resulted in the permanent loss of your account.”[2]

This makes it a moral duty of the users to report any page that violates the above. Thereafter it becomes an obligation of “Facebook” to remove those pages. In case of the above mentioned event which was rightfully deemed derogatory and disrespectful by many Muslims, as was prevalent from worldwide protests, even their policy demanded that the page be removed. Their antic is compounded by the fact that there were ample complaints against it, yet Facebook chose to overlook these complaints and reap a generous publicity worldwide through it.

Their bias becomes more apparent when individuals like “Saad Waraich” took these issues head on in the form of their private experiments. A page which was intentionally made to discuss the personality of Hitler was not only removed, but the user was also banned permanently. He was told:

We will not be able to reactivate your account for any reason. This decision is final.
[3]
While “Everybody draw Muhammad” page was allowed under their policy of “Freedom of Speech”, “Hitler page” got purged within hours.[4]

Although such direct discrimination towards Islam is sufficient to render Facebook an abhorrence for us as Muslims, nonetheless its drawbacks are not limited to this bias. Many people have enumerated countless reasons for leaving Facebook. You can perhaps enlighten your friends about these as well.

Facebook, being a social networking site offers all types of media options imaginable. These include many which are impermissible in Islām.

· The website strives on the exchange of pictures and videos which are more often than not of prohibitive nature in Islām.

· The website does not offer any restriction in gender interaction. This means that it is very difficult to safeguard oneself or youth from interacting with a non mahram (strangers). Putting oneself in such danger is like intentionally stepping into Shaitan’s trap. Muftī Taqī Uthmāni Sāheb had mentioned this in his talk as well: “I dont know but I have been informed that young boys and girls have been befriending each other through this site and the moral teachings of religion are being stampeded and trampled upon. So this site should be blocked and banned!”[5] This is exactly what we have observed as well.

· The website offers a poor security for private material. This has been an administrative concern for Facebook for quite some time now. Moreover their new privacy measures which claims to tackle these security issues suggests that many aspects of ones profile now becomes public information.[6] Focusing on such issues, other people including non Muslims, have been contemplating leaving Facebook.[7][8]

· The website’s structure makes the user incapable to deleting information like pictures and videos permanently. This means that should you want to delete any impermissible picture, it will remain accessible through its direct link even after a month or so, and in some cases up to a year later.[9] [10]

· The website also does not allow you to delete your own account. It follows a procedure of requesting a permanent delete, in which you submit a request which deactivates your account. The account still remains with Facebook and is only deleted permanently after 14 days of zero activity on the website. Furthermore, should there be any activity during these 14 days, the website automatically reinstates the account and the request for deletion is revoked.

While we enumerate all these cons to the website, we still face the common reservations to our decision of Boycott. It is also beneficial to skim through some of these concerns and address them as well.

· The website despite the negatives is a means for Da῾wah to over 350 million users
We do not argue that it is a means for da῾wah and propagating the true teachings of Islām. However, we do take note that this noble work of da῾wah should not be tainted with impermissible modes. For example, it is a noble effort to bring the message of Islam to one and all, but that does not mean that we take this effort into the bars and pubs as well. The same people in the bars and pubs can be approached elsewhere.

While we invite towards the pristine religion of Islam, it is incumbent that we keep our actions in conformity with Dīn. While our Noble Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam exerted his efforts to invite everyone towards the truth, He salallahu alayhi wasallam did not let down his guard and sit among the companies of fusāq and fujār (sinners) to carry out this work.
We iterate that this particular website is “a mean” of propagating Islam and not “the mean”.

There are numerous other ways were we can do the same work of Da῾wah without having to tolerate institutions and organization with a direct bias with Islam. The honour of a Muslim jolts him to shun away any such gathering and company that directly or indirectly reviles and belittles our Noble Prophet salallahu alayhi wasallam.

We also recall the action of Sahābi Sayiduna Abu Bakr radi allahu ῾anhu, when he was asked to stop reciting Quran in order to keep his amnesty among the Quraish. Sayiduna Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu shun away such amnesty and sought the amnesty of Allāh. We too desist ourselves from having the need of such a medium that has no respect for our Nabi salallahu alayhi wasallam. Allah’s religion is Haqq and will prevail with or without such means, hence we chose to make this effort through the means which are Shaī῾ah Compliant.

· It is possible to keep ones Facebook Islamic, and free of unislamic contents.
We do realize that those who are cautious of Allah’s laws can keep their pages free from un-islamic content, however we cannot risk the ummah to fall into this fitna merely because some people can uphold the restrictions of Islam. It has been established from experience that many Muslim users, including some Ahlul ῾ilm who have utilized Facebook, end up loosing recognizance of the laws of hijab, and have many non mahram and even non muslim women communicating in ways inappropriate for a muslim.

We must realize that every page or profile which is established attracts some followers. Over time it does not remain a status “wall”, rather it evolves into a hub inculcating different “friends” to get acquainted and becomes friends through it. That is the essence of a social networking website. Many people may keep their pages islamic, yet may be oblivious to the fact that how many of their followers in their “friends” list started their interaction with other non mahram sisters who were also listed in this person’s friend list. One may argue at length that the action of those “friends” remains their personal action, but we cannot overlook the fact that this hub was the initiating point for their haram interaction. Hence, he will be equally responsible for the haram that will come forth from his own page, whether he realizes it or not.

We cannot allow putting our ummah into such widespread fitna and then expect them to remain safe as well. As the proverbial saying goes, “The essence of fire is to burn, should it not find anything to burn, it will burn itself out.” The essence of every fitna is that it puts a person into a test. How unfortunate are those who put themselves into the fitna and then expect to survive without being tested. It is the duty of the ῾ulamā’ to safeguard the ummah from throwing themselves into these tests and then regret their own loss.

Our opposition to Facebook is also based on their active bias towards Muslims as we have explained before. In light of this we do not find any soft spot for Facebook.

· If we boycott Facebook, then we might as well boycott Youtube, Yahoo and Google.
With regards to Youtube, Yahoo, Google or any other website, we had categorically mentioned in our Fatwa, “…delete Facebook accounts and any other media that deems it acceptable to disrespect our beloved Rasoolullah sallallāhu alayhi wasallam and never to reactivate them again.

Obviously we will carry out appropriate diplomatic measures before resorting to boycotting these sites. Should other measures achieve the desired cooperation then we do not see a need for drastic steps. However, if any of these websites deem it acceptable to disrespect our beloved Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wasallam then we hold the same view of boycotting against them as well.

Having said that, we should point out that Youtube is a website for much fitna. The website is filled with movies, pictures and that is the sole reason for the website. Although some people use it for propagation, we feel that it should be avoided as much as possible.

We strongly advise your friends to reconsider their decision. The glory of Islām lays in the love for Allah and His Messenger salallahu alayhi wasallam.[11] Nabī salallahu alayhi wasallam cautioned the ummah from abstaining from doubtful because one who falls into the doubtful is bound to overstep into harām. If this is the case about doubtful issues, we should gauge the level of caution for the mediums which exposes us to so many vices and sin.

We end our advice with a link to the transcript of the talk of Muftī Taqī Uthmāni Sāheb. We hope that the information provided will help your friends to make a more informed decision about this menace. We ask Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta῾āla to guide us towards the correct understanding of Dīn and its implementation in the footsteps of His Rasūl salallahu alayhi wasallam, Amīn.

Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) on insulting caricatures of Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) & boycotting FaceBook

And Allāh Ta῾āla Knows Best
Wassalāmu ῾alaykum

Faisal bin Abdul Hamid,
Student, Madrasah In῾āmiyyah


Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Dārul Iftā, Madrasah In῾āmiyyah


[1] http://www.facebook.com/terms.php?ref=pf

[2] http://www.techxtramile.com/blog/201...dom-of-speech/

[3] ibid.

[4] "We strongly believe that Facebook users have the freedom to express their opinions, and we don't typically take down content, groups or pages that speak out against countries, religions, political entities, or ideas." – in a statement to AFP (Site accessed 14th July 2010 ) http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...5609455C544747

[5] http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/muftiface.htm

[6]“ Under the new regime, Facebook treats that information — along with your name, profile picture, current city, gender, networks, and the pages that you are a "fan" of — as "publicly available information" or "PAI." Before, users were allowed to restrict access to much of that information. Now, however, those privacy options have been eliminated.” ( Site accessed 14th July 2010 ) http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly

[7] http://www.quitfacebookday.com/#why

[8] http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/05/facebook-rogue/

[9] “The researchers opened accounts with 16 social media sites and uploaded pictures. Then, 30 days later, they returned to see if the image URLs still contained the images. They found that 6 sites, including FaceBook, still had the images accessible.” (Site accessed 14th July 2010 ) http://www.thetechnewsblog.com/2009/...eted-pictures/

[10] http://www.zdnet.com/blog/igeneratio...d-content/4808

[11]None of you is a believer till I am dearer to him than his child, his father and the whole of mankind” .(Muslim)
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 01:57 PM
Salam

· The website does not offer any restriction in gender interaction. This means that it is very difficult to safeguard oneself or youth from interacting with a non mahram (strangers). Putting oneself in such danger is like intentionally stepping into Shaitan’s trap. Muftī Taqī Uthmāni Sāheb had mentioned this in his talk as well: “I don’t know but I have been informed that young boys and girls have been befriending each other through this site and the moral teachings of religion are being stampeded and trampled upon. So this site should be blocked and banned!”[5] This is exactly what we have observed as well.

wrong! it has a setting. Either you can block someone or restrict them.

·
The website offers a poor security for private material. This has been an administrative concern for Facebook for quite some time now. Moreover their new privacy measures which claims to tackle these security issues suggests that many aspects of ones profile now becomes public information.[6] Focusing on such issues, other people including non Muslims, have been contemplating leaving Facebook.[7][8]
wrong! Again it have a setting and you can STILL make it extremely private. I just asked my sister whether the setting has changed and found out there is no changes. Why is this person who has written this article given false information?

·
The website’s structure makes the user incapable to deleting information like pictures and videos permanently. This means that should you want to delete any impermissible picture, it will remain accessible through its direct link even after a month or so, and in some cases up to a year later.[9] [10]
Does this person not fear Allah (swt)....why on earth is this guy giving false information. If you have posted pictures and video on groups and on your profile, you are still able to delete it permanently. The link return the individual back to facebook homepage.


·
The website also does not allow you to delete your own account. It follows a procedure of requesting a permanent delete, in which you submit a request which deactivates your account. The account still remains with Facebook and is only deleted permanently after 14 days of zero activity on the website. Furthermore, should there be any activity during these 14 days, the website automatically reinstates the account and the request for deletion is revoked.
Again does this individual not fear Allah (swt)? and are we now getting to point where we have lie to prevent people doing to certain website? Subhallah! Once you delete facebook, your friends and family no longer see your profile, you have disappeared. No one is able to access the profile. But you are able to return to it to activate it for at least 14 days. After that your profile is gone forever.


These were some of things that were wrong. This person obviously hasn't used the site and might have written what other people said. I stopped Facebook because of the poor control of the hate groups however the setting and privacy of facebook is really good. I understand why facebook cant control certain groups because the same idiots keep creating new ones. But I have notice they do delete hate groups especially towards Islam.

You say that was the best article written against facebook. I say it is the worse article written about facebook and full of false information. It is so obviously that this individual has not used facebook. As you dawah? When I used facebook, I corrected so many stupid misconception people had against Islam and Muslims in general. I know that there are some muslims that are still clearing up misconception by people. Again facebook is a tool, you can either use it or good or bad.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 02:30 PM
Wa alaykum salam,

Done with the temper tantrum, sister? :)

Firstly, be careful of your words. Accusing someone of lying is in itself a sin. The safest option for you is to assume he is mistaken (husn al dhaan). No need to go far as assuming someone has no fear of Allah.

wrong! it has a setting. Either you can block someone or restrict them.
I believe from the words the mufti used, that he meant it in a wider scope. It may be that on the local scope users can choose who to have as friends but despite this, there is no gender based segregation. Hence haram is very easy to fall into.

Can you really disagree with this: "The website does not offer any restriction in gender interaction (if we assume he is talking about the absence of strict segregation). This means that it is very difficult to safeguard oneself or youth from interacting with a non mahram (strangers)." given the raging hormones youth have, coupled with constant bombardment via media of everything related to sex, coupled with the general lack of conscsiousness of Allah and taqwa?

“I don’t know but I have been informed that young boys and girls have been befriending each other through this site and the moral teachings of religion are being stampeded and trampled upon. So this site should be blocked and banned!” Can you also deny this? That there have been several thousand if not million cases where teens/adults have hooked up on FB?

wrong! Again it have a setting and you can STILL make it extremely private. I just asked my sister whether the setting has changed and found out there is no changes. Why is this person who has written this article given false information?
Did you bother to check the references used? [6,7,8]:

[6]“ Under the new regime, Facebook treats that information — along with your name, profile picture, current city, gender, networks, and the pages that you are a "fan" of — as "publicly available information" or "PAI." Before, users were allowed to restrict access to much of that information. Now, however, those privacy options have been eliminated.” ( Site accessed 14th July 2010 ) http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly

[7] http://www.quitfacebookday.com/#why

[8] http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/05/facebook-rogue/

Plenty of info there to suggest that privacy is indeed a legitimate concern. Sad that you would neglect this and in your fervour to defend something rush to condemnation and accusations.

Does this person not fear Allah (swt)....why on earth is this guy giving false information. If you have posted pictures and video on groups and on your profile, you are still able to delete it permanently. The link return the individual back to facebook homepage.
Again, look at refs [9,10], sister. Even I know this is true due to the numerous news articles that have come out regarding it, despite not being such an avid FB user.

Again does this individual not fear Allah (swt)? and are we now getting to point where we have lie to prevent people doing to certain website? Subhallah! Once you delete facebook, your friends and family no longer see your profile, you have disappeared. No one is able to access the profile. But you are able to return to it to activate it for at least 14 days. After that your profile is gone forever.
I challenge you to show me one statement of lie in that paragraph. Here is how I read it:

"The website also does not allow you to delete your own account." - If you use some sense, you can figure out that he meant you're not allowed delete it completely by the click of a button but have to follow this long complicated procedure. As he further goes on to elaborate upon.

"It follows a procedure of requesting a permanent delete, in which you submit a request which deactivates your account. The account still remains with Facebook and is only deleted permanently after 14 days of zero activity on the website. Furthermore, should there be any activity during these 14 days, the website automatically reinstates the account and the request for deletion is revoked." Show me what is incorrect about this?

You say that was the best article written against facebook. I say it is the worse article written about facebook and full of false information. It is so obviously that this individual has not used facebook. As you dawah? When I used facebook, I corrected so many stupid misconception people had against Islam and Muslims in general. I know that there are some muslims that are still clearing up misconception by people. Again facebook is a tool, you can either use it or good or bad.
The reason I hold that this is a good argument against FB is spelled out in the initial paragraphs of the article. Namely, related to the clear bias they show against Islam as apparent by the dishonour they showed our Prophet, peace be upon him. That is the most important reason and the one I would argue any muslim leave FB for. All the rest are secondary.

Please read the article with an unbiased and open mind.
Reply

Woodrow
08-17-2010, 02:34 PM
:sl:

I doubt very many here remember the days when our telephone numbers were on a party line. I still remember our first phone the number was Oldfield-5493 ring 3 and we shared the line with the Gallaghers, the Mays, the Gingras's and the Petritus's.

How we could accidentally pick up other people's phone calls and how nosy Mrs. Gallagher would listen in on everybody's phone calls. Back then The telephone was very much like the facebook of today. A nice tool to use, but know and understand the limitations and how to secure your privacy and above all resist the temptation to eavesdrop in on other people.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
Wa alaykum salam,

Done with the temper tantrum, sister? :)

Firstly, be careful of your words. Accusing someone of lying is in itself a sin. The safest option for you is to assume he is mistaken (husn al dhaan). No need to go far as assuming someone has no fear of Allah.

Where did I say he was lying? I said he was giving false information (which BTW i sill stand by) whether he did intentionally or not.
Oh sorry just notice yes I did say lie, actually meant give false information and talk out of ignorance

I believe from the words the mufti used, that he meant it in a wider scope. It may be that on the local scope users can choose who to have as friends but despite this, there is no gender based segregation. Hence haram is very easy to fall into.

Haram is easy to fall into if you are stupid enough not to use the setting and if you have the opposite sex as already "friends" and if you have bad friend on your list (which you can still control by restricting your profile or blocking them completely)

Can you really disagree with this: "The website does not offer any restriction in gender interaction (if we assume he is talking about the absence of strict segregation). This means that it is very difficult to safeguard oneself or youth from interacting with a non mahram (strangers)." given the raging hormones youth have, coupled with constant bombardment via media of everything related to sex, coupled with the general lack of conscsiousness of Allah and taqwa?

I have used facebook for FIVE YEARS. You are able to restrict your profile to certain people whether they are your friends or not. I have used this several times. Half of the people on my facebook cant see my pictures or information like my family can. Whether the individual chooses to talk to the opposite sex is up to them, but the setting is there to prevent it. I hardly see any advisement on facebook. It is up to the person to restrict their sites. Stop trying make life difficult for the youth. I started as a youth using facebook, I can safety say the setting is there for the youth to use .

“I don’t know but I have been informed that young boys and girls have been befriending each other through this site and the moral teachings of religion are being stampeded and trampled upon. So this site should be blocked and banned!” Can you also deny this? That there have been several thousand if not million cases where teens/adults have hooked up on FB?

so? thousands of youth can easily hook over the telephone....are you going to ban telephone now? Like I say over and over again facebook has a setting, it up to the parents and teenagers themselves to use that setting.

Did you bother to check the references used? [6,7,8]:

[6]“ Under the new regime, Facebook treats that information — along with your name, profile picture, current city, gender, networks, and the pages that you are a "fan" of — as "publicly available information" or "PAI." Before, users were allowed to restrict access to much of that information. Now, however, those privacy options have been eliminated.” ( Site accessed 14th July 2010 ) http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/facebooks-new-privacy-changes-good-bad-and-ugly

[7] http://www.quitfacebookday.com/#why

[8] http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/05/facebook-rogue/

Plenty of info there to suggest that privacy is indeed a legitimate concern. Sad that you would neglect this and in your fervour to defend something rush to condemnation and accusations.

I am speaking as a person that used facebook for five years. I should know the inside and out of facebook. Facebook has really good privacy setting, it up the individual to use it.

Again, look at refs [9,10], sister. Even I know this is true due to the numerous news articles that have come out regarding it, despite not being such an avid FB user.

Yeah I read them so? And you know what those news article contain? stupid teenagers that desperate enough to contact strangers and that hasn't used the privacy setting. What about the thousands of teenagers that do protect themselves like myself. Again Facebook does have a privacy setting, it up to the person to use it. You obviously are not aware of this setting.

I challenge you to show me one statement of lie in that paragraph. Here is how I read it:

"The website also does not allow you to delete your own account." - If you use some sense, you can figure out that he meant you're not allowed delete it completely by the click of a button but have to follow this long complicated procedure. As he further goes on to elaborate upon.


"It follows a procedure of requesting a permanent delete, in which you submit a request which deactivates your account. The account still remains with Facebook and is only deleted permanently after 14 days of zero activity on the website. Furthermore, should there be any activity during these 14 days, the website automatically reinstates the account and the request for deletion is revoked." Show me what is incorrect about this?

His information is still false! Once you deactivate your account, no one , not even your family can see it. so how on earth does that mean it "remains on facebook" when you yourself are the only person to activate your account otherwise no one on facebook can see your profile. It would have disappeared. your profile only returns if you decide to activate before 14 days. Again like I said it is up to the individual to whether they want their profile permanently deleted. The writer fails to mention any activity by the individual themselves not by facebook. I ask you a question how on EARTH does your profile still "remain" when no one can see your profile and members using it cant track you down and the comments you leave disappear and your family and friends cant access you profile. Basically you just disappeared. so what is wrong the procedure facebook has that suit both who choose to leave and those who choose to return?

The reason I hold that this is a good argument against FB is spelled out in the initial paragraphs of the article. Namely, related to the clear bias they show against Islam as apparent by the dishonour they showed our Prophet, peace be upon him. That is the most important reason and the one I would argue any muslim leave FB for. All the rest are secondary.

If you actually followed such groups then you would know that facebook deletes them and does somewhat control them. Like I said the same idiots will create another group. It all depends on whether the masses that report such groups.

Please read the article with an unbiased and open mind.
I still stand by my point. Facebook is a tool, it doesn't make anyone do something like this article states. It is your responsibility to use the setting and if you want to delete your profile again it is your responsibility to follow the procedure. Facebook has the setting and tools for halal uses.
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أحمد
08-17-2010, 03:27 PM
:sl:

Truth can sound harsh when something has become part of one's everyday life. I don't blame those who go out of their way to defend facebook, or any other such social networking site.

If I wasn't aware of the problems with facebook; I'd probably be criticising anyone speaking against it.

:wa:
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

Truth can sound harsh when something has become part of one's everyday life. I don't blame those who go out of their way to defend facebook, or any other such social networking site.

If I wasn't aware of the problems with facebook; I'd probably be criticising anyone speaking against it.

:wa:

I don’t use facebook. I still stand by what I said.
I don’t join people that make everything in this world to be haram. Tell me where I have written that was not true? Does facebook not have a settling? Yes or no?
The only reason it becomes bad use is if you have bad friends, even so does facebook not allow you control that?
Reply

ابن آل مرة
08-17-2010, 03:42 PM
Facebook is nothing but Fitnah, so it should be avoided completely. For those who say they can control what they do and etc, look at it in this perspective. Why would you even use a website that allowed a disgraceful event against our Prophet:saws1: ? Even though that event never took place but it still has history of dirty pages against Islam. I would not even think about typing facebook on the url.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 03:49 PM
What about you stop using the internet then Ahmed....i mean there loads of anti islamic sites? why would you be on something like the internet that allows disgraceful event against out Prophet peace be upon him and our religion in general? Your argument can be applied to the internet so why are you on it? Just like internet cannot be controlled completely, it is the same with facebook. Thus I don't blame people that are still on it.

It is like people are trying to avoid installing responsibilities into their youths. They rather take everything away from play stations to the facebook. How about controlling facebook, playstations and install some schedule and responsibility toward the youth and children.

Play station: avoid violent games, rent or buy sport games then making sure they are only allowed certain days for certain time.

Internet; put the computer in the sitting room, explore privacy setting in social networking sites and use that setting and teach your youth to use it and to only contact same gender friends. Keep the computer in the sitting room so you are able to see what they do.

Go to education games for younger children and fun without violent again for certain days and time.

Stop trying to restrict everything completely.
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ابن آل مرة
08-17-2010, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
What about you stop using the internet then Ahmed....i mean there loads of anti islamic sites? why would you be on something like the internet that allows disgraceful event against out Prophet peace be upon him and our religion in general? Your argument can be applied to the internet so why are you on it? Just like internet cannot be controlled completely, it is the same with facebook. Thus I don't blame people that are still on it.

It is like people are trying to avoid installing responsibilities into their youths. They rather take everything away from play stations to the facebook. How about controlling facebook, playstations and install some schedule and responsibility toward the youth and children.

Play station: avoid violent games, rent or buy sport games then making sure they are only allowed certain days for certain time.

Internet; put the computer in the sitting room, explore privacy setting in social networking sites and use that setting and teach your youth to use it and to only contact same gender friends. Keep the computer in the sitting room so you are able to see what they do.

Go to education games for younger children and fun without violent again for certain days and time.

Stop trying to restrict everything completely.
Internet in general can be used for great purposes Islamically and its a necessary tool in this time and age. Facebook rather is usually a leicure, in which people waste time and create fitnah among each other. Us muslims are ready to defend ourselves when being adviced or criticized on things that has doubts.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed M.
Internet in general can be used for great purposes Islamically and its a necessary tool in this time and age. Facebook rather is usually a leicure, in which people waste time and create fitnah among each other. Us muslims are ready to defend ourselves when being adviced or criticized on things that has doubts.

So? Facebook can be used Islamically as there are Islamic groups on facebook, you can post verse from Quran to non Muslim member in your friends list, you can talk to those that have misconceptions and clear those misconceptions. You can share Islamic events on facebook. I found facebook useful to contact and share information with family members that on the other side of the world including pictures. As for wasting your time, same thing can be said about the internet. Again it is your responsibility to control yourself whether you are on facebook or the internet in general. Facebook can used for many things including work rather than leisure.
Reply

أحمد
08-17-2010, 04:14 PM
:sl:

Facebook isn't the same as forums, email services or general websites. The internet isn't limited to facebook or similar sites.

As you've chosen to compare facebook to the rest of the internet, which you probably mean the web; let's look at email privacy. No matter what changes occur on the service host by the email providers; the privacy level doesn't fall, on facebook its known to fall, and has been a cause for concern for users in the past.

Emails can be phished, but using any conventional attack will not reveal your credentials, facebook's encryption is the best terms is complete rubbish. I'm sorry if this comes as a shock to you, but kids hack facebook accounts "all the time".

Emails can be checked for authenticity, the same cannot be said for anyone who adds your contact on facebook.

Next: Forums.
As I am making this post on LI, my IP, host, browser details are logged. This allows members of staff to check for web-bots and problematic users.
The same cannot always be said for facebook.

Although forums can be hacked, any information shared is at ones own risk. You shouldn't share personal information over the internet anyway; forums are for discussions, not for sharing personal information.

:wa:
Reply

Vigno
08-17-2010, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
What about you stop using the internet then Ahmed....i mean there loads of anti islamic sites? why would you be on something like the internet that allows disgraceful event against out Prophet peace be upon him and our religion in general? Your argument can be applied to the internet so why are you on it? Just like internet cannot be controlled completely, it is the same with facebook. Thus I don't blame people that are still on it.

It is like people are trying to avoid installing responsibilities into their youths. They rather take everything away from play stations to the facebook. How about controlling facebook, playstations and install some schedule and responsibility toward the youth and children.

Play station: avoid violent games, rent or buy sport games then making sure they are only allowed certain days for certain time.

Internet; put the computer in the sitting room, explore privacy setting in social networking sites and use that setting and teach your youth to use it and to only contact same gender friends. Keep the computer in the sitting room so you are able to see what they do.

Go to education games for younger children and fun without violent again for certain days and time.

Stop trying to restrict everything completely.
Asalamu Alekum

You are absolutely right sister, if we go on saying this is haram and this and this then we ll end up saying TV, telephones (as woodrow suggested), internet and playstation as you suggested etc are haram. Everything in life has good and bad, this is life and none can change it. Even in the Hereafter there is good and bad (Paradise and Hell).
It is up to us to choose the good from the bad and we can't just keep stopping everything that has bad in it, rather take the good and leave the bad.
To my brothers and sisters avoid being aggressive at everything or you ll end up being extremists.
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said: “The extremist fanatics are doomed.”
So beware of falling in such a category.
Jazakum Allah khiir


Reply

أحمد
08-17-2010, 04:19 PM
:sl:

If you know anything about facebook; you must know its purpose is stated in their advert below.



"Facebook helps you connect and share with the people in your life."

This sums up what I said about social networking and sharing personal information.

:wa:
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
08-17-2010, 04:20 PM
:sl:

It's like anything else, it depends on how you use it. Besides, it's a great social media tool - with many of our teachers using it such as Suhaib Webb, Muhammad AlShareef, and Abu Eesa and they're doing a lot of good with it, masha'Allaah. I don't see any problem in using it. If someone is going to mention its fitnah, they might as well apply the same ruling on the internet itself. It's not very different. So if you can keep yourself away from the bad stuff on the internet, you can do the same on facebook. There's no need to differentiate between the two. Muslims, especially those in the West need to be in tune with the social media of the day and age. If the individual is spiritually sound, he can keep himself away from whatever fitnah is found in life, not just on facebook.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

Facebook isn't the same as forums, email services or general websites. The internet isn't limited to facebook or similar sites.

As you've chosen to compare facebook to the rest of the internet, which you probably mean the web; let's look at email privacy. No matter what changes occur on the service host by the email providers; the privacy level doesn't fall, on facebook its known to fall, and has been a cause for concern for users in the past.

Emails can be phished, but using any conventional attack will not reveal your credentials, facebook's encryption is the best terms is complete rubbish. I'm sorry if this comes as a shock to you, but kids hack facebook accounts "all the time".

Emails can be checked for authenticity, the same cannot be said for anyone who adds your contact on facebook.

Next: Forums.
As I am making this post on LI, my IP, host, browser details are logged. This allows members of staff to check for web-bots and problematic users.
The same cannot always be said for facebook.

Although forums can be hacked, any information shared is at ones own risk. You shouldn't share personal information over the internet anyway; forums are for discussions, not for sharing personal information.

:wa:
You grossly underestimate the privacy setting on facebook.

Where do you get the idea that kids hack facebook ALL the time?

I and many people never ever had a problem with privacy on facebook. Tbh I just think you lot are sucking on straw.

And how do you think police track down criminal on facebook if same cannot be said for facebook?
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

If you know anything about facebook; you must know its purpose is stated in their advert below.



"Facebook helps you connect and share with the people in your life."

This sums up what I said about social networking and sharing personal information.

:wa:
I guess you missed with people in your life. Facebook allows you to choose who is in your life.

You know what if people choose not to be on facebook then fine. But you have no rights to criticise other people that choose to be on facebook. I choose not to be on facebook but I choose not to look down on those that choose to be on facebook. That is all I have to say.
Reply

أحمد
08-17-2010, 04:35 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
You grossly underestimate the privacy setting on facebook.

Where do you get the idea that kids hack facebook ALL the time?

I and many people never ever had a problem with privacy on facebook. Tbh I just you lot are sucking on straw.

And how do you think police track down criminal on facebook if same cannot be said for facebook?
The difference between hacking facebook and hacking accounts on it isn't a small one.

As for security on facebook, its not surprising to see that on news topics.
http://www.pcworld.com/article/16054..._one_week.html
http://www.pcworld.com/article/19572..._problems.html
http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/11/yel...rsonalization/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/7375772.stm
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle2253720.ece

Old and new news, yet the problems reappear as if each case is looking at it for the first time. Many people have failed to learn from their mistakes; I'm not saying whether its halal or haram, I'm talking about security problems and the purpose of facebook.

:wa:
Reply

أحمد
08-17-2010, 04:37 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I guess you missed with people in your life. Facebook allows you to choose who is in your life.

You know what if people choose not to be on facebook then fine. But you have no rights to criticise other people that choose to be on facebook. I choose not to be on facebook but I choose not to look down on those that choose to be on facebook. That is all I have to say.
Every good and bad choice is made by the individual; whether its filling in their credentials on a phishing page, or its to do with facebook.

:wa:
Reply

Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 04:44 PM
Where did I say he was lying? I said he was giving false information (which BTW i sill stand by) whether he did intentionally or not.
Accusing someone of not having fear of Allah after saying he gives out false information tends to give that impression. Don't you think?

Anyway, here is a direct statement you made: "are we now getting to point where we have lie to prevent people doing to certain website?"

I have used facebook for FIVE YEARS. You are able to restrict your profile to certain people whether they are your friends or not. I have used this several times. Half of the people on my facebook cant see my pictures or information like my family can. Whether the individual chooses to talk to the opposite sex is up to them, but the setting is there to prevent it. I hardly see any advisement on facebook. It is up to the person to restrict their sites.
Do you get male friend recommendations? You know 'users you may know' or something like that. I don't think you have any control over that, do you (spell it out for me please, I am not as familiar with FB as you appear)?

Can you not see a problem (assuming that the above is truly the case, please confirm) if say there is a young teen child, who gets a sexy posing friend recommended to him by Facebook's algorithm?

In any case, here is a plausible case: Say there is a teen who emails someone (perhaps via gmail) on the other side of the world, not knowing who that person is for an entirely legitimate reason (perhaps he met her on a forum and wanted to ask about the best recipe for cake, I dunno) and then after getting what he wants, doesn't think much about her. However, a little while later, he logs into facebook and thinks about importing contacts from his email and lo and behold, sees this sexy lady friend of his. Hmm. Raging hormones.

Can you see how he might be tempted to evil? Do you think any kid these days when there is the general lack of taqwa wouldn't be tempted to become more of a friend?

Are ulema wrong to want to prevent instances like the above?

Secondly, is everyone fully aware of FB settings and how to make their profiles private and further, do people tend to even bother with it? Do our lazy youth care who sees them or not?

So in light of the above, the ulema have a real dilemma. Far from being some old bearded mullahs that are doing ought but restrict the kids from 'having fun', they actually have concern for our imaan and want us to be perfected in adab/taqwa. Hence they need to take steps to ensure the people don't go astray. Hence even if they were to declare FB haram outright, they wouldn't be in the wrong because their intention is to protect us (and people DO need protection, since there has been a stupendous amount of haraam that FB has directly facilitated).

Stop trying make life difficult for the youth. I started as a youth using facebook, I can safety say the setting is there for the youth to use .
Again, the majority of people may not care about privacy/not know how it words so there is
the very real risk of haram happening. If not to the accont holder himself, then to his friends via them being introduced through his list.

so? thousands of youth can easily hook over the telephone....are you going to ban telephone now? Like I say over and over again facebook has a setting, it up to the parents and teenagers themselves to use that setting.
Firstly, the telephone comparison is a silly one. Simply because FB allows youth to hook up with random people and it is much easier with typed words than it is via voice. You ring up a girl telling her you like her and she'll shut the phone in your face but you msg her on FB with a sexy picture of yourself, she'll get tempted. Then of course there is the obvious difference between FB and telephones, pictures that tempt!

I am speaking as a person that used facebook for five years. I should know the inside and out of facebook. Facebook has really good privacy setting, it up the individual to use it.
I suspect you missed the point that was being made.

The intial quote which you deemed 'wrong!':

The website offers a poor security for private material. This has been an administrative concern for Facebook for quite some time now. Moreover their new privacy measures which claims to tackle these security issues suggests that many aspects of ones profile now becomes public information.[6] Focusing on such issues, other people including non Muslims, have been contemplating leaving Facebook.[7][8]
This does not directly allude to what you are most likely assuming (i.e. hidden photos, friends etc) but rather about privacy in terms of what you do not have control over.

Read this for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...f-privacy.html the recent case of someone who “harvested” the names, profile addresses, and unique ID numbers of 100 million Facebook users – a fifth of the network’s total user base.

Indeed, if this kind of privacy was so good, why is there such a big hoo-haa about it in the media!

Yeah I read them so? And you know what those news article contain? stupid teenagers that desperate enough to contact strangers and that hasn't used the privacy setting. What about the thousands of teenagers that do protect themselves like myself. Again Facebook does have a privacy setting, it up to the person to use it. You obviously are not aware of this setting.
You must be 'lying' here because references [9,10] contain no such mention of teenagers or their stories. Here is what you rubbished off the mufti's article:

The website’s structure makes the user incapable to deleting information like pictures and videos permanently. This means that should you want to delete any impermissible picture, it will remain accessible through its direct link even after a month or so, and in some cases up to a year later.[9] [10]
Does this person not fear Allah (swt)....why on earth is this guy giving false information. If you have posted pictures and video on groups and on your profile, you are still able to delete it permanently. The link return the individual back to facebook homepage.
The cause of confusion that you have (i.e. it seems you're assuming he is talking about pics remaining visible to friends/fam after you 'delete' them, when that is not what is being discussed).
I uploaded one picture and one video with restricted permissions so only I could access them through Facebook wherever possible, then deleted them. Even though the user has specifically deleted the content, they are still stored on Facebook’s servers and content delivery network by accessing the direct hotlink.
format_quote Originally Posted by Facebook
It is possible that someone who previously had access to a photo on Facebook, and who saved the direct URL from our content delivery network (CDN) partner (this is different from the Facebook URL) might still have access to that photo. We have been working with our CDN partner to reduce the amount of time that these backup copies persist.”
At least till a year ago, the above was a problem (as I've personally read in news articles of the time). Allahu Alaam if they've changed now. For you to call 'lie' on the mufti is out of order especially when there is a body of news articles that corroborate what he said. Instead of reacting emotionally, try to see this with a rational eye. Obviously, the way the web works is that it evolves very fast. Things change in quick periods of time. What may have been true at one point may not be at another. So being wrong (which the mufti wasn't, it seems) does not necessitate deception/lie.

In this partocular case, the issue of the direct link storing pics was true before and it may still be at present (which at least the person in the zdnet linked blog found it true for him (here is his video proof, April 2010!).

His information is still false! Once you deactivate your account, no one , not even your family can see it. so how on earth does that mean it "remains on facebook" when you yourself are the only person to activate your account otherwise no one on facebook can see your profile. It would have disappeared. your profile only returns if you decide to activate before 14 days.
Lol. You obviously misunderstood what is being said. If your account didn't remain on facebook, how else are you able to reactivate it within 14 days?! THAT is what he is talking about (obv it may be invis to others but the account details are still there). So instead of accusing people of lying, please attempt to understand what is being said first.

If you actually followed such groups then you would know that facebook deletes them and does somewhat control them. Like I said the same idiots will create another group. It all depends on whether the masses that report such groups.
Oh really? That's funny, so all that fiasco about the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him a few months ago was all out of nothing? They were quite prompt in their deletion, weren't they? It may be that there are some enlightened souls that do have a moral compass and would delete such things but given the case in question, that did not happen. It did not happen until after it was brought to the attention of the whole world! Pakistan went to the extent of blocking FB completely. Why would they let it reach that far when clearly their rules don't allow such hate talk? Why the double standards?

I still stand by my point. Facebook is a tool, it doesn't make anyone do something like this article states. It is your responsibility to use the setting and if you want to delete your profile again it is your responsibility to follow the procedure. Facebook has the setting and tools for halal uses.
Fair enough and I really don't dispute that.

However, you have to look at it from their perspective. They are ulema and they have a duty of guiding and protecting the common people away from deeni harm. Facebook unfortunately has ruined many a people which really, we can't deny. You or I may be strong enough to resist falling into shaytan's trap but thousands more aren't strong enough. Hence, they are right to be against it in their position as our guiders.

Remember, this isn't about a debate on their part just for the sake of it. They have a duty to complete and erring on the side of caution is always the better option.

It's fine if you disagree but don't rubbish them for doing their duty and rush to condemn them as liars.
Reply

Sawdah
08-17-2010, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
:sl:

It's like anything else, it depends on how you use it. Besides, it's a great social media tool - with many of our teachers using it such as Suhaib Webb, Muhammad AlShareef, and Abu Eesa and they're doing a lot of good with it, masha'Allaah. I don't see any problem in using it. If someone is going to mention its fitnah, they might as well apply the same ruling on the internet itself. It's not very different. So if you can keep yourself away from the bad stuff on the internet, you can do the same on facebook. There's no need to differentiate between the two. Muslims, especially those in the West need to be in tune with the social media of the day and age. If the individual is spiritually sound, he can keep himself away from whatever fitnah is found in life, not just on facebook.
:wa:

I agree, it's all on how you use it.

Same goes for internet, televison, telephones, etc. It's all on how you use it. All these things are tools. It's not the tool that's haram, it's how you use it that can be.

:w:
Reply

Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed
Facebook is nothing but Fitnah, so it should be avoided completely. For those who say they can control what they do and etc, look at it in this perspective. Why would you even use a website that allowed a disgraceful event against our Prophet:saws1: ? Even though that event never took place but it still has history of dirty pages against Islam. I would not even think about typing facebook on the url.
Exactly! This is the most important reason why any muslim should leave it.

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
What about you stop using the internet then Ahmed....i mean there loads of anti islamic sites? why would you be on something like the internet that allows disgraceful event against out Prophet peace be upon him and our religion in general? Your argument can be applied to the internet so why are you on it? Just like internet cannot be controlled completely, it is the same with facebook. Thus I don't blame people that are still on it.
Have you been living under a rock lately, sister? For someone so familiar with FB didn't you read about the thing that happened a few months back?

Secondly, your suggestion of leaving the internet altogether is laughable because facebook has owners who have a policy in which it is directly stated that they would delete such offensive content. So when users sign up, they should expect this. They have a right to be upset when they let the whole thing that happened a few months ago go without taking any action and lol don't give that rubbish about people not being able to police it all, given that it was world news, they obviously knew about it!
Reply

Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
It's like anything else, it depends on how you use it. Besides, it's a great social media tool - with many of our teachers using it such as Suhaib Webb, Muhammad AlShareef, and Abu Eesa and they're doing a lot of good with it, masha'Allaah. I don't see any problem in using it. If someone is going to mention its fitnah, they might as well apply the same ruling on the internet itself. It's not very different. So if you can keep yourself away from the bad stuff on the internet, you can do the same on facebook. There's no need to differentiate between the two. Muslims, especially those in the West need to be in tune with the social media of the day and age. If the individual is spiritually sound, he can keep himself away from whatever fitnah is found in life, not just on facebook.
Wa alaykum salam,

It may be surprising but I also agree with most of this.

Just because I endorsed the fatwa I pasted, does not mean I am fully against FB.

However, there is a legitimate concern here which cannot be overlooked and some of ulema are right in my opinion to say it is not permissible (or that in the very least, it ought to be heavily monitored by parents).

I think we have to look at this issue through a broader lens. The kind of people that are able to preserve themselves are usually religiously minded. We'll find the majority of the rest are not sound, hence the dilemma for ulema - how far do they go toward protecting (the usual alcohol example can be used here, i.e. some may be able to stay sober but that doesn't mean it is safe for all).

Nevermind the people that can protect themselves, there is a big problem with haram happening with the rest, especially the youth.

Saying something like 'we are able to control ourselves with the correct privacy settings, it's all good' is fine for yourself but we have a duty to care for our brethren and the sad truth is the most aren't able to exercise the same level of control. The shaytan's trap is far too easy to fall into, even for the most religous. So in light of this, those that have a position against FB are not being 'backward'. The concern is legitimate.

Pro FB's can say why not get off the internet then, except the problem is that FB is an outlet that is conducive toward this kind of haram moreso than other social networks and the web at large. Not that it's not possible elsewhere, facebook just makes it easier. Indeed, that's the whole purpose of FB, to connect people. You'll find so many instances of kids adding their 'friends' (who are not really friends but just classmates that they would not otherwise talk to) which in turn would lead into some kind of relationship.

Now, it may be that the same people that would indulge in this kind of haram on FB would do so elsewhere on the web but FB certainly breaks down the barriers and makes it easier.

It's like if a person has the intention to hookup with some girl and so walks into a club where he knows there will be many to talk to. He can do it elsewhere too but being in the club makes it a heck of a lot easier.

I think our young sisters especially need protecting from the FB fitnah. They are so prone to being duped and played with by guys who have less than honourably intentions.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 05:27 PM
I just replied to two posts and it hasn't appeared.

I cant be ask to write another :(
Reply

Soulja Girl
08-17-2010, 05:30 PM
:sl:

Facebook this & Facebook that.. Jus cut it out.. How many threads have there been on LI regardin FB? Countless.. & people say the same things again and again, jus go round in circles.. Those who are on FB, if they wanna stay on it, let em, those who aren't, well you can't stop others.. Yea, warn them about the fitnah etc buh if they ain't doin anyfin wrong, what's the big deal eh?? At teh end of the day: "lana a3maluna wa lakum a3malukum.." Having said that, if people know they're weak & don't have control over themselves well then yea, they should stay away.. =)

:wa:
Reply

tango92
08-17-2010, 05:31 PM
i agree with sis sweet106, the argument of facebook being fitna is not true for alot of people.

for one you can choose to have no members of the opposite sex in your freinds list and there are many privacy options. it is no more of a fitna than anything in the dunya.

and shes right, what are you doing browsing the web with all the anti islam/ perverted websites on it? at the end of the day life requires few necessities from the internet.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
Exactly! This is the most important reason why any muslim should leave it.



Have you been living under a rock lately, sister? For someone so familiar with FB didn't you read about the thing that happened a few months back?

Secondly, your suggestion of leaving the internet altogether is laughable because facebook has owners who have a policy in which it is directly stated that they would delete such offensive content. So when users sign up, they should expect this. They have a right to be upset when they let the whole thing that happened a few months ago go without taking any action and lol don't give that rubbish about people not being able to police it all, given that it was world news, they obviously knew about it!
You know zero about facebook and how many groups facebook has deleted which I know of because I have reported them. Let me give you a cule:

<comments deleted>

You get the idea right, that facebook does deleted group but not all? Just like the internet groups in facebook is out of control even though there are good groups. The only thing facebook is good at is that the person is able to control their profile from others.
Reply

أحمد
08-17-2010, 05:38 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Lady
:sl:

Facebook this & Facebook that.. Jus cut it out.. How many threads have there been on LI regardin FB? Countless.. & people say the same things again and again, jus go round in circles.. Those who are on FB, if they wanna stay on it, let em, those who aren't, well you can't stop others.. Yea, warn them about the fitnah etc buh if they ain't doin anyfin wrong, what's the big deal eh?? At teh end of the day: "lana a3maluna wa lakum a3malukum.." Having said that, if people know they're weak & don't have control over themselves well then yea, they should stay away.. =)

:wa:
You are right; this is going around in circles, starting and ending, then repeating on choice.

:wa:
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 05:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
Accusing someone of not having fear of Allah after saying he gives out false information tends to give that impression. Don't you think?

Anyway, here is a direct statement you made: "are we now getting to point where we have lie to prevent people doing to certain website?"

Do you get male friend recommendations? You know 'users you may know' or something like that. I don't think you have any control over that, do you (spell it out for me please, I am not as familiar with FB as you appear)?

Can you not see a problem (assuming that the above is truly the case, please confirm) if say there is a young teen child, who gets a sexy posing friend recommended to him by Facebook's algorithm?

In any case, here is a plausible case: Say there is a teen who emails someone (perhaps via gmail) on the other side of the world, not knowing who that person is for an entirely legitimate reason (perhaps he met her on a forum and wanted to ask about the best recipe for cake, I dunno) and then after getting what he wants, doesn't think much about her. However, a little while later, he logs into facebook and thinks about importing contacts from his email and lo and behold, sees this sexy lady friend of his. Hmm. Raging hormones.

Can you see how he might be tempted to evil? Do you think any kid these days when there is the general lack of taqwa wouldn't be tempted to become more of a friend?

Are ulema wrong to want to prevent instances like the above?

Secondly, is everyone fully aware of FB settings and how to make their profiles private and further, do people tend to even bother with it? Do our lazy youth care who sees them or not?

So in light of the above, the ulema have a real dilemma. Far from being some old bearded mullahs that are doing ought but restrict the kids from 'having fun', they actually have concern for our imaan and want us to be perfected in adab/taqwa. Hence they need to take steps to ensure the people don't go astray. Hence even if they were to declare FB haram outright, they wouldn't be in the wrong because their intention is to protect us (and people DO need protection, since there has been a stupendous amount of haraam that FB has directly facilitated).

Again, the majority of people may not care about privacy/not know how it words so there is
the very real risk of haram happening. If not to the accont holder himself, then to his friends via them being introduced through his list.

Firstly, the telephone comparison is a silly one. Simply because FB allows youth to hook up with random people and it is much easier with typed words than it is via voice. You ring up a girl telling her you like her and she'll shut the phone in your face but you msg her on FB with a sexy picture of yourself, she'll get tempted. Then of course there is the obvious difference between FB and telephones, pictures that tempt!

I suspect you missed the point that was being made.

The intial quote which you deemed 'wrong!':

This does not directly allude to what you are most likely assuming (i.e. hidden photos, friends etc) but rather about privacy in terms of what you do not have control over.

Read this for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...f-privacy.html the recent case of someone who “harvested” the names, profile addresses, and unique ID numbers of 100 million Facebook users – a fifth of the network’s total user base.

Indeed, if this kind of privacy was so good, why is there such a big hoo-haa about it in the media!

You must be 'lying' here because references [9,10] contain no such mention of teenagers or their stories. Here is what you rubbished off the mufti's article:

The cause of confusion that you have (i.e. it seems you're assuming he is talking about pics remaining visible to friends/fam after you 'delete' them, when that is not what is being discussed). At least till a year ago, the above was a problem (as I've personally read in news articles of the time). Allahu Alaam if they've changed now. For you to call 'lie' on the mufti is out of order especially when there is a body of news articles that corroborate what he said. Instead of reacting emotionally, try to see this with a rational eye. Obviously, the way the web works is that it evolves very fast. Things change in quick periods of time. What may have been true at one point may not be at another. So being wrong (which the mufti wasn't, it seems) does not necessitate deception/lie.

In this partocular case, the issue of the direct link storing pics was true before and it may still be at present (which at least the person in the zdnet linked blog found it true for him (here is his video proof, April 2010!).

Lol. You obviously misunderstood what is being said. If your account didn't remain on facebook, how else are you able to reactivate it within 14 days?! THAT is what he is talking about (obv it may be invis to others but the account details are still there). So instead of accusing people of lying, please attempt to understand what is being said first.

Oh really? That's funny, so all that fiasco about the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him a few months ago was all out of nothing? They were quite prompt in their deletion, weren't they? It may be that there are some enlightened souls that do have a moral compass and would delete such things but given the case in question, that did not happen. It did not happen until after it was brought to the attention of the whole world! Pakistan went to the extent of blocking FB completely. Why would they let it reach that far when clearly their rules don't allow such hate talk? Why the double standards?

Fair enough and I really don't dispute that.

However, you have to look at it from their perspective. They are ulema and they have a duty of guiding and protecting the common people away from deeni harm. Facebook unfortunately has ruined many a people which really, we can't deny. You or I may be strong enough to resist falling into shaytan's trap but thousands more aren't strong enough. Hence, they are right to be against it in their position as our guiders.

Remember, this isn't about a debate on their part just for the sake of it. They have a duty to complete and erring on the side of caution is always the better option.

It's fine if you disagree but don't rubbish them for doing their duty and rush to condemn them as liars.
The example you have given is so wrong and it can be appiled to the internet in general. Okay let take that example, why not ban gmail? That is how she got in contact with him. And mobile phones have pictures, why not ban that?

I wasnt talking about the article you have provided I was talking about the news: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...acebook-killer
The girl had failed to look after herself. I say this so many times, it is up to the individual and their parents to use Facebook safely.

Btw we are not allowed label things haram unless it was written by Allah (swt) or said by the prophet peace be upon him. So we meant to say talking to opposite sex unnecessarily is haram. But you can't say facebook is haram.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
You know zero about facebook and how many groups facebook has deleted which I know of because I have reported them. Let me give you a cule:
<comments deleted>

You get the idea right, that facebook does deleted group but not all? Just like the internet groups in facebook is out of control even though there are good groups. I only thing facebook is good at is that the person is able to control their profile from others.
You still fail to explain the fiasco that happened a few months back.
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أحمد
08-17-2010, 05:46 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I say this so many times, it is up to the individual and their parents to use Facebook safely.
You have a valid point; internet security software can provide some extra protection in that case (parental controls).

:wa:
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 05:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
The example you have given is so wrong and it can be appiled to the internet in general. Okay let take that example, why not ban gmail? That is how she got in contact with him.
The issue is that Facebook allowed this youth to see what this girl looked like and hence decide to persue her, which he wouldn't otherwise have done.

And mobile phones have pictures, why not ban that?
What soc net is there on mobiles?

Secondly, if I was a parent, I would go out of my way to make sure my kids don't own a phone till they are well into their late teens.

I wasnt talking about the article you have provided I was talking about the news: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/ma...acebook-killer
The girl had failed to look after herself. I say this so many times, it is up to the individual and their parents to use Facebook safely.
OK. I don't see the relevence to what you quoted when you replied, though.

Btw we are not allowed label things haram unless it was written by Allah (swt) or said by the prophet peace be upon him. So we meant to say talking to opposite sex unnecessarily is haram. But you can say facebook is haram.
What's your point? Have I done that? We leave that to the ulema.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 05:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
You still fail to explain the fiasco that happened a few months back.
Because it wasn't in their policies. What we consider offensive was not in their policies.

But that doesn't mean the groups above which I mentioned equally as offensive if not MORE has been deleted. Facebook doesn't answer to every call of reports. Some of the groups that I have mentioned are being remade by nutjobs that have no time in their hands.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
i agree with sis sweet106, the argument of facebook being fitna is not true for alot of people.

for one you can choose to have no members of the opposite sex in your freinds list and there are many privacy options. it is no more of a fitna than anything in the dunya.

and shes right, what are you doing browsing the web with all the anti islam/ perverted websites on it? at the end of the day life requires few necessities from the internet.
i. it may not be true for you but undoubtedly, many of our youth have been led astray. So in my opinion, those ulema that seek to label it impermissible are not wrong to want to prevent such mass direct haram and desensizitation to inter-gender communication. So when they give their fatwas out opposing it, at the very least, it gives parents (many of whom are clueless about what fb allows and what their kids are up to) a good wake up call.

ii. as mentioned, regarding the issue of hate, this is in response to Facebook's biased handling of the anti-islamic content that was posted. They have an obligation to remove it according to the rules that we agreed to, yet refused to do it. Hence the bias against Islam is clear. Regarding perverted sites on the net, of course that's true and you don't really find porn on facebook. Facebook is more of a hookup medium.

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Because it wasn't in their policies. What we consider offensive was not in their policies.

But that doesn't mean the groups above which I mentioned equally as offensive if not MORE has been deleted. Facebook doesn't answer to every call of reports. Some of the groups that I have mentioned are being remade by nutjobs that have no time in their hands.
Are you serious?! O_o wasn't in their policies?

You will not post content that: is hateful, threatening, or pornographic; incites violence; or contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.
So they can remove the hitler crap under the same reason ok but not what millions upon millions of muslims find offensive?

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps they only consider offensive stuff that doesn't include islam. Anything that degrades Islam is not offensive, really. Just freedom of speech. <_<

Facebook doesn't answer to every call of reports.
That's the dumbest thing. If they can delete all those that you mentioned then they have every right to delete this one, especially given the outcry. Why they didn't do it, is obvious. They remained stubborn. Gee, I wonder why they deleted it in the end if it wasn't offensive.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 06:12 PM
No it was not on their policies. The group was about drawing, whether the participants within the group drew someone committing a violent act for example then the group is held not responsible unless the groups is overwhelmed by such drawing.

The drawing of the prophet peace be upon him did not break their policies because it (the group not members) did not suggest or claim "hateful, threatening, pornographic; incites violence; or contain nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence".

You obviously don't consider the groups they have removed, you know the examples I have given. And dont care the amount of groups they have already removed? To you facebook hates Muslims, then I dont why they decided to ban the groups I have already mentioned.

Btw not even ulema can make facebook haram, no one can. Who said they can?

Anyway, I want to end this conversation, so agree to disagree.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 06:18 PM
No it was not on their policies. The group was about drawing, whether the participants within the group drew someone committing a violent act for example then the group is held not responsible unless the groups is overwhelmed by such drawing.

The drawing of the prophet peace be upon him did not break their policies because it (the group not members) did not suggest or claim "hateful, threatening, pornographic; incites violence; or contain nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence".
This is just a wishy washy excuse for their mishandling of it. Millions found it offensive yet no action taken. That's all that matters.


Btw not even ulema can make facebook haram, no one can. You said they can?
You're dead wrong. Of course they can declare something haram. The principle is that if anything goes against Islam, it becomes sinful.

If for whatever wacky reason on facebook it became mandatory for all people to have as a friend and send messages to people of the opposite gender, then obviously, facebook would become haraam. There's something called fiqh. Scholars will take into account the quran/sunnah and deduce from the circumstance whether or not something is permissible.
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Soulja Girl
08-17-2010, 06:23 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Btw not even ulema can make facebook haram, no one can. Who said they can?
^They have every right to and neither you nor I can stop them..

:wa:
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 06:28 PM
So wait, are people actually saying the ulema can makes haram or halal? what? I thought only Allah (swt) can and prophet peace be upon him?

Goodness, prepare them to make TV and the internet haram. I am sure the same principle would apply there too?
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 06:32 PM
Anyways the ulmea hasn’t made haram. And you have not rights to judge people that use it or say it is haram.
As for facebook hating you, I am sure they do hate you otherwise why on earth would they remove hates group based on Muslims and considered incredibly offensive. Agree to disagree on this matter?

Edit: My mistake, ignore what I said about ulema.
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أحمد
08-17-2010, 06:59 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
So wait, are people actually saying the ulema can makes haram or halal? what? I thought only Allah (swt) can and prophet peace be upon him?

Goodness, prepare them to make TV and the internet haram. I am sure the same principle would apply there too?
Some of us don't like or watch TV, so any such ruling against a TV wouldn't make any difference to us.

:wa:
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



Some of us don't like or watch TV, so any such ruling against a TV wouldn't make any difference to us.

:wa:

That was one of those examples regardless whether you or others like to watch it. :shade:

I doubt they would even make it haram considering how popular peace tv etc is...
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tango92
08-17-2010, 07:14 PM
no doubt ulema have made living in the west extremely difficult
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
08-17-2010, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
Wa alaykum salam,

However, there is a legitimate concern here which cannot be overlooked and some of ulema are right in my opinion to say it is not permissible (or that in the very least, it ought to be heavily monitored by parents).
To me its not even as issue of what the Ulema say - because at the end of the day the Ulema that ARE saying its haram are not from the West, for the majority of them and therefore are not aware of the place where they're trying to give a fatwa for. The scholars in the West, the ones that are actually in tune with the society here, you'll find them on facebook, such as those I mentioned earlier because they realize that telling people that facebook is haraam won't cut it and most people won't listen anyway. Therefore, utilize it best you can.

Honestly, in this age when almost every kid is online, using the internet, has a ton of friends, and wants to stay connected - how is this kid going to stop using facebook just because a fatwa online somewhere tells him to stop? The answer is he wont. We mght not like to hear this, but this is reality. So the question is no longer is facebook halal or haraam, it becomes: 'Since facebook is something the present generation is going to use regardless, what can be done to make it a better, more halaal experience?' That's the question that needs to be answered.

The answer doesn't like in abandoning the social media tools of the 21st century - rather it lies with how to use those social media tools to get the users on it (i.e. the even least bit religious Muslims) to become better. People like Muhammad AlShareef, Suhaib Webb, Abu Eesa, Muhammad Faqih and other scholars who are in the West, you find them on facebook. Why? Because they realize it's tool and potential in reaching to masses of people. And guess what? There is a lot of good being done by them on it.

And finally, the problem does not lie with facebook at all or with how its used. The problem lies in how spiritually close to Allaah a person is. If he's close, then he'll avoid fitnah in all areas of his life, if he's not then facebook is just another outlet for him, as easily accessible as pornography.

I think we have to look at this issue through a broader lens. The kind of people that are able to preserve themselves are usually religiously minded. We'll find the majority of the rest are not sound, hence the dilemma for ulema - how far do they go toward protecting (the usual alcohol example can be used here, i.e. some may be able to stay sober but that doesn't mean it is safe for all).

Nevermind the people that can protect themselves, there is a big problem with haram happening with the rest, especially the youth.
Of course there is a problem with the youth - but answer the following: i) If you tell these youth that facebook is haram, are they really going to listen to you? & ii) How is stopping them from using facebook going to be of any help to them when the real problem is something else entirely?

Saying something like 'we are able to control ourselves with the correct privacy settings, it's all good' is fine for yourself but we have a duty to care for our brethren and the sad truth is the most aren't able to exercise the same level of control. The shaytan's trap is far too easy to fall into, even for the most religous. So in light of this, those that have a position against FB are not being 'backward'. The concern is legitimate.
There is a difference between the concern being legitimate and the way the concern is addressed. Frankly, if these Ulema go up to these youth and tell them facebook is haram, they'll be laughed at. It's simple as that. The answer is not blocking something that's a simple social media tool, but addressing the problem of getting these youth to be more spiritually close to Allaah. Saying facebook is haraam to me sounds like just a frustrated attempt at not being able to solve the underlying problem.

Pro FB's can say why not get off the internet then, except the problem is that FB is an outlet that is conducive toward this kind of haram moreso than other social networks and the web at large. Not that it's not possible elsewhere, facebook just makes it easier. Indeed, that's the whole purpose of FB, to connect people. You'll find so many instances of kids adding their 'friends' (who are not really friends but just classmates that they would not otherwise talk to) which in turn would lead into some kind of relationship.
I don't think facebook is as big a problem as pornography is, especially amongst our communities, married and non-married people alike. Facebook is not something where a person can go on and just become random friends with random people, there are pretty stringent privacy/control settings there. Contrast that to pornography and the ease of accessibility it enjoys.

If we're to ask ourselves why we're on 'fitna facebook', then by the same token, why not ask ourselves why do we go to 'fitna college campuses'? I think it's way easier for a person to hook up with someone on campus or hit up a party in a dorm then it is on facebook.

I think our young sisters especially need protecting from the FB fitnah. They are so prone to being duped and played with by guys who have less than honourably intentions.
True to an extent, but I do think we underestimate our sisters a tad too much.
Reply

Vigno
08-17-2010, 08:10 PM
Asalamu Alekum

Subhanah so much effort and time wasted on this petty matter. There's no need to have a go at one another, some have a view of facebook being wrong, that's there problem, some don't and so likewise. I myself use facebook and guess what, I don't put any pictures and the only friend I have is my sister who doesn't put any pictures of her either, so what's the big deal? If I put myself on total privacy then none can add me, gameover. Its about responsibility and self control, you control your privacy on facebook just like you control whether you go on a bad website or not. If some people choose to insult Islam on Facebook then that's absolutely their problem, you can't stop walking on a street coz some folks blabber some nonsense there.
And you need to know, Islamic channels are using facebook to communicate with people and they have islamic groups (check Mustafa Hosni). If they thought its wrong, then they won't have promoted the use of this tool i.e. facebook.
So please save yourselves and everyone's energy discussing this matter further and focus more on much more important things like Salah and Quran, its Ramadan time so save unnecessary debates at least till its over.
Jazakum Allah khiir
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Cabdullahi
08-17-2010, 08:20 PM
''Privacy groups gave a half-hearted welcome to Facebook's announcement on Wednesday night that it would roll out new, simplified privacy settings to its 450 million users in the next few weeks.

The UK group Privacy International reacted with "disappointment and frustration", saying that "the latest changes merely correct some of the most unacceptable privacy settings on the site. Very little has changed in terms of the overall privacy challenge that Facebook and its users need to navigate."

Instead it said that the changing of the settings – which previously required users to navigate through up to 150 different settings to control who could see their data, to a simpler four-tiered version plus a "customise" option – was "merely a red herring".''


http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...gs-red-herring
this was time ago maybe it has changed Allahu3alem....i stopped using it when i read how the US government and perhaps other governments spy on the users...facebook gives them a plethora information about...for example your likes and dislikes...what you wear what you're doing.etc
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 08:51 PM
To me its not even as issue of what the Ulema say - because at the end of the day the Ulema that ARE saying its haram are not from the West, for the majority of them and therefore are not aware of the place where they're trying to give a fatwa for. The scholars in the West, the ones that are actually in tune with the society here, you'll find them on facebook, such as those I mentioned earlier because they realize that telling people that facebook is haraam won't cut it and most people won't listen anyway. Therefore, utilize it best you can.
The issue of ulema being from the west or not is quite irrelevent because facebook is a global tool that is not specific to England or America. The fatwa is aimed at all people.

Do we have different standards for what people in the west and the east can achieve in terms of taqwa? Why is it okay for non-westerners but for westerners, we have to make things easy for?

MashaAllah, I applaud the contribution these scholars you mentioned make but I personally do not agree with their stance. Many less renowned scholars living (and raised) in the west have a similar 'anti-facebook' (shall we say) bias. Clearly they know what things are like.

So it is clear that there is a legitimate difference of opinion and I accept that - nowhere have I judged those that think it is permissible (nor have I decisively considered fb haraam for that matter).

Honestly, in this age when almost every kid is online, using the internet, has a ton of friends, and wants to stay connected - how is this kid going to stop using facebook just because a fatwa online somewhere tells him to stop? The answer is he wont. We mght not like to hear this, but this is reality. So the question is no longer is facebook halal or haraam, it becomes: 'Since facebook is something the present generation is going to use regardless, what can be done to make it a better, more halaal experience?' That's the question that needs to be answered.
This doesn't work for me. There has to be a black and white standard between what is and is not acceptable according to the deen, not according to what school kids are willing to accept. There was life before facebook and there will be life after. One could also argue, 'since kids will hang around with the opposite gender anyway, why don't we come up with deen focused things they could do together, e.g. sing nasheeds together'. The fact that you bring deen into it, doesn't make mixing acceptable.

I respect what you say here but personally, this approach is too far bending the deen.

And finally, the problem does not lie with facebook at all or with how its used. The problem lies in how spiritually close to Allaah a person is. If he's close, then he'll avoid fitnah in all areas of his life, if he's not then facebook is just another outlet for him, as easily accessible as pornography.
Of course, I agree that one would sin regardless of facebook being present. The issue however is that we are all weak. No matter how strong one thinks he is, he will inevitably slip up. I can tell you horror stories of supposed hafiz guys seducing girls online. Kids online today go on facebook for a variety of reasons and at least one point in time they will have pondered the idea of chatting to someone of the opposite sex. Many will have given into it and done so. This is undeniable. Usually, people may have very innocent intentions but it is very easy to be misled. So any such fatwa saying facebook is not allowed, I would welcome on the basis that it would prevent at least one person from becoming corrupted.

Of course there is a problem with the youth - but answer the following: i) If you tell these youth that facebook is haram, are they really going to listen to you? & ii) How is stopping them from using facebook going to be of any help to them when the real problem is something else entirely?
i. Those that already respect ulema will listen. If not, at least their parents/siblings may take appropriate measures to ensure at the very least that there is no haraam going on. I.e. such fatwas will give people cause for concern.
ii. a. What might their real problem be? b. as pointed out above, a person might not have any such problem and start off with innocent intentions, yet is very likely to get corrupted, especially if it's a young person with hormones and sex/marriage in mind. Log on one time, see a sister's profile somehow and seek refuge in Allah. See that same sister again the next time and he decides to find out more about her. Etc etc. We all know how things build up. It's the large scale desensitation that happens.

There is a difference between the concern being legitimate and the way the concern is addressed. Frankly, if these Ulema go up to these youth and tell them facebook is haram, they'll be laughed at. It's simple as that. The answer is not blocking something that's a simple social media tool, but addressing the problem of getting these youth to be more spiritually close to Allaah. Saying facebook is haraam to me sounds like just a frustrated attempt at not being able to solve the underlying problem.
I don't think that is the case. This is the typical bearded mullah wil say 'everything is evil' mentality you're speaking about. I'm sure they have more hikmah than you assume.

If someone asks a question and they know that facebook is likely to lead them to corruption, then at least they will have fulfilled their obligation according to their ijtihaad.

For every one person that's guided by the dawah on facebook, I would assume there are at least 5 or 6 people that are misguided and have commited some level of sin (weakest being lusting on random pics). So for the greater good, I would say such fatwas are wise.

I don't think facebook is as big a problem as pornography is, especially amongst our communities, married and non-married people alike. Facebook is not something where a person can go on and just become random friends with random people, there are pretty stringent privacy/control settings there. Contrast that to pornography and the ease of accessibility it enjoys.
That is most likely true, but I didn't mean to imply facebook is more of a problem than say porn, for example.

What I meant was, facebook is the best medium out there for people to meet others for the sake of haraam.

Facebook is not something where a person can go on and just become random friends with random people
This I disagree with. Even I know this is easily possible in facebook. Find one person who has friends on display to the public and request and add, simple.

True to an extent, but I do think we underestimate our sisters a tad too much.
Disagree again. There might be some exceptions but I guarantee you, the majority are EASILY duped.
Reply

cat eyes
08-17-2010, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
To me its not even as issue of what the Ulema say - because at the end of the day the Ulema that ARE saying its haram are not from the West, for the majority of them and therefore are not aware of the place where they're trying to give a fatwa for. The scholars in the West, the ones that are actually in tune with the society here, you'll find them on facebook, such as those I mentioned earlier because they realize that telling people that facebook is haraam won't cut it and most people won't listen anyway. Therefore, utilize it best you can.

Honestly, in this age when almost every kid is online, using the internet, has a ton of friends, and wants to stay connected - how is this kid going to stop using facebook just because a fatwa online somewhere tells him to stop? The answer is he wont. We mght not like to hear this, but this is reality. So the question is no longer is facebook halal or haraam, it becomes: 'Since facebook is something the present generation is going to use regardless, what can be done to make it a better, more halaal experience?' That's the question that needs to be answered.

The answer doesn't like in abandoning the social media tools of the 21st century - rather it lies with how to use those social media tools to get the users on it (i.e. the even least bit religious Muslims) to become better. People like Muhammad AlShareef, Suhaib Webb, Abu Eesa, Muhammad Faqih and other scholars who are in the West, you find them on facebook. Why? Because they realize it's tool and potential in reaching to masses of people. And guess what? There is a lot of good being done by them on it.

And finally, the problem does not lie with facebook at all or with how its used. The problem lies in how spiritually close to Allaah a person is. If he's close, then he'll avoid fitnah in all areas of his life, if he's not then facebook is just another outlet for him, as easily accessible as pornography.

Of course there is a problem with the youth - but answer the following: i) If you tell these youth that facebook is haram, are they really going to listen to you? & ii) How is stopping them from using facebook going to be of any help to them when the real problem is something else entirely?

There is a difference between the concern being legitimate and the way the concern is addressed. Frankly, if these Ulema go up to these youth and tell them facebook is haram, they'll be laughed at. It's simple as that. The answer is not blocking something that's a simple social media tool, but addressing the problem of getting these youth to be more spiritually close to Allaah. Saying facebook is haraam to me sounds like just a frustrated attempt at not being able to solve the underlying problem.

I don't think facebook is as big a problem as pornography is, especially amongst our communities, married and non-married people alike. Facebook is not something where a person can go on and just become random friends with random people, there are pretty stringent privacy/control settings there. Contrast that to pornography and the ease of accessibility it enjoys.

If we're to ask ourselves why we're on 'fitna facebook', then by the same token, why not ask ourselves why do we go to 'fitna college campuses'? I think it's way easier for a person to hook up with someone on campus or hit up a party in a dorm then it is on facebook.

True to an extent, but I do think we underestimate our sisters a tad too much.
:sl: im not getting involved in this stupid debate at all

but i just wana say one thing, people always go on about imams being on these sites an all this.. but they are humans like all the rest of us and are prone to sin too lol

so i don't get why if a certain imam is on lets say myspace or something where load of fitnah is too so that means all the muslims should follow after him?

as the brother said obove we are all weak and can fall in to sin.. the strongest of us can fall into sin.

and yes even if he is an imam, he can fall in to sin too. its better to follow what our creator has told us in holy qur'an its better to avoid something altogether if it contains fitnah rather then opening the door to it and giving yourself a chance to commit a sin.

its just opening all doors to shayytan.

im talking about every site and not just fb but facebook is always spoken about because i think many of us have heard on the news its the most popular site so more people are inclined to join it this is why its of importance for the scholars to warn the youth about it.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 09:56 PM
Actually you may have a point. But I do think facebook is much safer then this site for varies reasons.
I wouldn't talk random people like our brother is trying to make. Yes you do get request or you add, ultimately it is up to you to decide whether to choose to accept the request or add the person.
End of the day, it comes down to your intention. Are we honestly saying we are incredibly weak? Then why are we on this site talking to each other? If we want to take far, and actually follow our teaching...then that should be applied to this site and outside (universities, employment).

And the brother is seriously underestimating the sisters.
Reply

marwen
08-17-2010, 10:19 PM
wow ! another 10 hours and more than 50 posts (including this) are spent on facebook.

What do you people want to know ?

if you can't decide, just visit facebook and see if it suits you to be there. No need to ask others.
I can say that "Some things are not haram, it's only how you use it". It's applicable to facebook too, but in facebook there is more chance to fall in fitna (unknown friends requests(opposite gender), pictures popping up everywhere, etc...), although you can use it for good actions too.

I confess that I have a facebook account, but I don't use it frequently, I just use it to contact good brothers or for learning/sharing informations about Islam and other useful stuff.

But to be honest, I recommend people (including me) to not use it, and if you want to use facebook, you should use it with caution.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 10:31 PM
The site was best way I remain contact with family members in Italy and Somalia (yes Somalia does have internet). Now I have actually spent money to talk to them and money to send pictures. All of which I could have done for free (library) or less money. I know there are ways of contacting but facebook was the common and the best way. For that reason I can see why people may want to use it. I gave up on facebook because of the offensive group and is part for my plan to stopped internet all together or lessen the time significantly. But let not be hypocrite, there is fitna right now on this forum and internet in general. Friend request, pictures and all that can be controlled. I think you can advise people not go on facebook but I would say you have no rights to look down upon them nor ban them from using it.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 10:38 PM
I agree with marwen.

If you guys read the thread carefully, you'll see my intention is not to have an argument against/for facebook.

I simply posted an article which I think points out good reasons as a whole on why facebook should be left/boycotted - the primary reason being the way FB dishonoured our Prophet, peace be upon him.

It was only after sweet106 posted declaring lies and deception upon the author that I felt a need to clarify. Obviously she misread and in her emotional state decided to have a tantrum.

Clearly, though, there is difference of opinion here (and amongst scholars) and we're not really going to convince anyone arguing about it here. I do agree it's a pointless debate.

I wouldn't talk random people like our brother is trying to make. Yes you do get request or you add, ultimately it is up to you to decide whether to choose to accept the request or add the person.
End of the day, it comes down to your intention. Are we honestly saying we are incredibly weak? Then why are we on this site talking to each other? If we want to take far, and actually follow our teaching...then that should be applied to this site and outside (universities, employment).
Nope. I didn't say you would talk to random people. This isn't even a discussion about you. I accept that you're obviously strong enough to avoid it. However, several of our youth are obviously weak given the huge amount of fitnah you can see with your own eyes. These kinds of fatwa, for them especially, is not wrong. If a telephone becomes haram for someone that uses it in the wrong manner, in the same way with facebook.

And the brother is seriously underestimating the sisters.
Maybe or maybe I just know what the inferior gender is like all to well. :exhausted

I think you can advise people not go on facebook but I would say you have no rights to look down upon them nor ban them from using it.
What is it with all these strawmen? Go on, I challenge you to show me where I (or the fatwa) have looked down upon those that use FB.

However, ulema clearly do have a right to say something is not permissible. This should of course be seen as ADVICE (not judgement) because obviously they want what is best for our deen. They used their scholarly deductions and have come up with valid reasons.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
I agree with marwen.

If you guys read the thread carefully, you'll see my intention is not to have an argument against/for facebook.

I simply posted an article which I think points out good reasons as a whole on why facebook should be left/boycotted - the primary reason being the way FB dishonoured our Prophet, peace be upon him.


It was only after sweet106 posted declaring lies and deception upon the author that I felt a need to clarify. Obviously she misread and in her emotional state decided to have a tantrum.whatever you say, sir. :rollseyes:rollseyes

Clearly, though, there is difference of opinion here (and amongst scholars) and we're not really going to convince anyone arguing about it here. I do agree it's a pointless debate.

Nope. I didn't say you would talk to random people. This isn't even a discussion about you. I accept that you're obviously strong enough to avoid it. However, several of our youth are obviously weak given the huge amount of fitnah you can see with your own eyes. These kinds of fatwa, for them especially, is not wrong. If a telephone becomes haram for someone that uses it in the wrong manner, in the same way with facebook.

Maybe or maybe I just know what the inferior gender is like all to well. :exhausted

What is it with all these strawmen? Go on, I challenge you to show me where I (or the fatwa) have looked down upon those that use FB.

However, ulema clearly do have a right to say something is not permissible. This should of course be seen as ADVICE (not judgement) because obviously they want what is best for our deen. They used their scholarly deductions and have come up with valid reasons.
You prove me where I said you or the ulema or fawta judge people who use facebook? I said people shouldn't judge.


Inferior gender? :raging:

There is no such thing as inferior gender in Islam. Well as far as I am aware. I hope you are joking. I just came out my "youth" wait I think some people still consider as a youth. and I am telling you, you are underestimating our youth.
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Alpha Dude
08-17-2010, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
I would say you have no rights to look down upon them nor ban them from using it.
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Inferior gender? :raging:
Yup, that's what your kind are. :statisfie

Do relax, I was joking.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 10:56 PM
why did you highlight that? It is clear what I meant by "you" as in the reader whether it was you or Marwen for example. You pretty much refer to anyone who is reading. :heated:

...........

anyway that line is like the end of the line for this topic right?:hiding:
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Cabdullahi
08-17-2010, 10:58 PM
do we have to fight even in ramadan ?

everybody wants to obliterate someone, it excites them
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
08-17-2010, 11:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
The issue of ulema being from the west or not is quite irrelevent because facebook is a global tool that is not specific to England or America. The fatwa is aimed at all people.
It actually is very relevant. Facebook is a global tool, but the people that use it are not global, i.e. a person that's using it in America is American and not like someone from across the globe. He doesn't have the same lifestyle, upbringing, society, norms, culture, etc as someone from somewhere else.

When you give a fatwa, you give it to the people, regardless of whether its being given about something that is a global phenomenon - the people using it are very specific to their place and time.

So when you tell someone in Saudi that facebook is Haram, cool, that would work because the society there is way more conservative than someone who's living in the West. And that's exactly why a fatwa that might work there should not be given to an individual that lives somewhere else. A fatwa changes according to many variables such as time, place, the individual in question, the cultural norms of a society etc.

Tying this back to facebook - the issue that I have a problem with is telling youth that live in the West, where the internet and social media is a part and parcel of who they are - to stop using that very social media that is part of their identity - that won't work. We can sit here and discuss all day about whether the Ulema are right or wrong, or whether this fatwa or that fatwa is ok, but the reality is that the situation on a societal level by far won't take someone that tells them facebook is haram seriously.

Therefore, the question itself changes. When something is part of the lifestyle of a large mass of people, something that in and of itself isnt haram in the first place - declaring it haram won't make any difference in the number of people that use it.

Do we have different standards for what people in the west and the east can achieve in terms of taqwa? Why is it okay for non-westerners but for westerners, we have to make things easy for?
i) It's not about taqwa, because if it were the implication would be that anyone that uses facebook lacks taqwa & ii) yes we do have different standards and different approaches for people that live in different lands.

The nature of fatawa itself is that it changes according to time and place. As long as the Usool are not being violated, there is room for changing of rulings according to time, place and situation.

As for your question as to why is it ok to have different standards for westerners and non-westerners, then the answer is in the question itself. Westerners are not like non-westerners. The society is different, the culture is different, the lifestyle itself is completely different. Therefore, they need a fiqh that works for them in their situation. We're not talking about making violating the fundamentals of Islaam, but that which is known as furoo' there is ample room for difference.

This doesn't work for me. There has to be a black and white standard between what is and is not acceptable according to the deen, not according to what school kids are willing to accept. There was life before facebook and there will be life after. One could also argue, 'since kids will hang around with the opposite gender anyway, why don't we come up with deen focused things they could do together, e.g. sing nasheeds together'. The fact that you bring deen into it, doesn't make mixing acceptable.
Fiqh itself is not black and white, so if we're going to hold off for a standard that clearly separates between everything acceptable and not acceptable, we're never going to get there.

See for me, the issue is not just whether someone is saying it's haram or not, the issue for me is whether this individual is being socially aware and relevant before issuing a fatwa - and anyone that tells me that facebook is haram is not being socially relevant or aware because he is not taking into account a variety of factors such as the ones Ive mentioned before - 1) The fact that it is part and parcel of today's society, 2) That the vast majority of people that use the internet do use facebook.

It's like saying you can't have a cellphone because of potential haraam way you can use it. It's like saying you can't use texting because of who you might text. It really makes no sense.

If Muslims in the West are to become integrated as a contributing part of the society, they can't go around demonizing and brandishing the haram card on anything that can remotely land a person in fitnah. We might as well tell all the Muslims to go live in the East because when you walk outside in the West you're bound to see a lady in a miniskirt. That's the implication being made.

I respect what you say here but personally, this approach is too far bending the deen.
Is asking for something that is socially relevant and practically applicable 'bending the deen'? I don't think so.

Of course, I agree that one would sin regardless of facebook being present. The issue however is that we are all weak. No matter how strong one thinks he is, he will inevitably slip up. I can tell you horror stories of supposed hafiz guys seducing girls online. Kids online today go on facebook for a variety of reasons and at least one point in time they will have pondered the idea of chatting to someone of the opposite sex. Many will have given into it and done so. This is undeniable. Usually, people may have very innocent intentions but it is very easy to be misled. So any such fatwa saying facebook is not allowed, I would welcome on the basis that it would prevent at least one person from becoming corrupted.
If we were to apply the same reasoning as this across the board then there should be fatwa issued that declare the internet as a whole, haraam. This forum should also be haram because there are brothers and sisters taking part in it together. A person is not automatically more religious because he doesn't use facebook.

Do you see why at the end of the day this logic won't work? The phenomenon is way too widespread to tell the millions of Muslims using it to get off because it's haraam. It's impossible and won't happen. It's like the famous hijrah from the West fatwa - it won't work on the millions of people. And Allaah does not obligate something that is impossible.

Once we understand and accept this fact, then we can instead of discussing this moot issue, come up with ways to turn facebook and other social media tools into positive influences. Burying our head to the fact that reality is that millions of Muslims already use it and will not stop using it won't do us any good.

i. Those that already respect ulema will listen. If not, at least their parents/siblings may take appropriate measures to ensure at the very least that there is no haraam going on. I.e. such fatwas will give people cause for concern.
Again you're speaking in ideals akhi. I respect the Ulema, but it's not like I'm going to stop using facebook because of a fatwa they gave, because i) I know what I use it for, ii) it's not wajib upon me to leave it, it's wajib upon me to stay away from the clear haram.

Secondly, we're not talking about those that 'respect' the Ulema, we're talking about the millions that are regular kids trying to be good Muslims where facebook is part of their lives like the telephone is.

Thirdly, there is a difference between blindly respective of the Ulema and being critically respective. Muslims need to learn to think for themselves and not take everything hook line and sinker. This isn't a criticism against our Ulema, but what it is Muslims being able to think for themselves and analyze their reality and societal existence and understand when a fatwa is practically applicable or practically inapplicable.

ii. a. What might their real problem be? b. as pointed out above, a person might not have any such problem and start off with innocent intentions, yet is very likely to get corrupted, especially if it's a young person with hormones and sex/marriage in mind. Log on one time, see a sister's profile somehow and seek refuge in Allah. See that same sister again the next time and he decides to find out more about her. Etc etc. We all know how things build up. It's the large scale desensitation that happens.
What's the difference between that and seeing a sister on the college campus, lowering your gaze the first time and then the second time asking her if she needs any help in class politely? I don't see any difference.

The reality is the same, the medium is different. Let's address the reality and not the medium because the mediums change.

I don't think that is the case. This is the typical bearded mullah wil say 'everything is evil' mentality you're speaking about. I'm sure they have more hikmah than you assume.
I'm sure they do. I'm just asking for them to give a fatwa that takes into account the society, time and place before they declare something haraam.

For every one person that's guided by the dawah on facebook, I would assume there are at least 5 or 6 people that are misguided and have commited some level of sin (weakest being lusting on random pics). So for the greater good, I would say such fatwas are wise.
I'd say the same for real life. For every person that's guided by the dawah, there are atleast 5 or 6 others that go astray on campus, at the very least checking out some girl. So would you say, for the greater good, we issue a fatwa that makes college campuses haraam?

Do you see the inconsistency?

What I meant was, facebook is the best medium out there for people to meet others for the sake of haraam.
Definitely not. A college campus, dorm rooms are way worse. It's so easy to hook up with someone on campus - just go to any dorm room where there's a party going on.

This I disagree with. Even I know this is easily possible in facebook. Find one person who has friends on display to the public and request and add, simple.
That is, only if the other person accepts that request right? Most people don't.

Disagree again. There might be some exceptions but I guarantee you, the majority are EASILY duped.
I disagree - we have a problem of underestimating our practicing sisters way too much.
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Rhubarb Tart
08-17-2010, 11:04 PM
:sl:

no one is fighting...
:coolalien
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
08-17-2010, 11:06 PM
Disclaimer: I'm not fighting, believe me, I don't even have any bad feelings in my heart as Im writing out a reply. It's an interesting discussion and I'm enjoying the exchange of ideas as Im sure everyone else is as well. :)
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Amat Allah
08-17-2010, 11:24 PM
laa ilaha illa Allaaah .......
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