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aadil77
08-21-2010, 10:02 AM
:sl:

Once again they came to my door and tried handing me their leaflets - only this time I didn't accept them, but instead they've agreed to come round my house next week and have a 'little' discussion.

For me this seems like a serious dawa'h opp, they already started feeling uneasy when I asked them where in the bible does it say jesus is the begotten son.

Basically my plan is to disprove some of their beliefs then hopefully start talking to them about islam and I wanna hand them a quran english translation in the end.

I don't know much about their beliefs, so if someone can highlight the main beliefs I can hammer them on, that would great

JazakhAllah khair


btw whats with all the stupid center aligning?
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Far7an
08-21-2010, 02:05 PM
Assalaamu alaikum bro,

They come to my house often and I always call them in and talk with them. They told me they don't believe in the Bible but the dead sea scrolls. I asked them what is the difference between Muslims and them. They said the following:

1. They believe Isa alayhisalaam is the son of God wana 'audhubillah
2. They don't believe in violence, even in defending!
3. They don't believe in Hell
4. They said a person who is a Muslim can stay a Muslim if he smokes, but if a Jehovas witness is caught smoking his membership will be revoked until he has some sort of hearing.

Can't remember what else he said. I asked him that if no one has the fear of any punishment in the hereafter what is to stop them from sinning? Most of the time they will answer saying if we love God anything is possible, and if they don't have the answer to something they'll say we'll wait for an answer from God.

One thing that disturbed me was the booklets they have with images of what looked like my local park on a Saturday afternoon and they claim that it is "paradise".
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aadil77
08-21-2010, 05:44 PM
they came to me this morning and starting talking about 'the end of time' and all these natural disasters lol

I think I'll avoid getting into their beliefs too much, just refute the son of god claim and then go onto islam
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distressed
08-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Salaam

You know what ? a girl i work with tried to convert me- no joke. at the time, i didnt knw wat to say? im not very assertive and didnt wana seem rude. anyway this girl bought me a copy of her bible and offered to take me to her kingdom hall.

from what i understand they believe in some1 called Jehovah (there god) and that hes gona save the world. also theres only something like 58,000 places in heaven. ? If they manage to convert a muslim, then its massive reward for them, hence the reason why this girl just wouldnt leave me alone.

they dont believe in birthdays. and theres always conventions going on around the world.

I read up about it last year, but cant remember the rest now.

D
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cat eyes
08-21-2010, 10:20 PM
:sl:they don't celebrate anything at all.. they also don't give blood if you were nearly dying and in need of it, they'd rather watch you suffer a painful death.

heres just one example

Critically-ill father faces death because Jehovah's Witness wife refuses to let him have a blood transfusion


A father who was gravely injured by a hit-and-run car could die because he is a Jehovah's Witness.
John Edwards, 58, needs a blood transfusion but his wife Sheila insists he would not want the life-saving procedure, which is against their religious beliefs.
As a result the couple's sons, who are not Jehovah's Witnesses, could have to watch their father die.
Jonathan Edwards, 36, his brother Tom, 29, and the doctors treating Mr Edwards are powerless to act in the face of his religious beliefs.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible forbids them from accepting blood, either in food or for medical reasons.
Mr Edwards, a council worker, was hit by a silver Mercedes in the early hours of Wednesday morning near
his home in Southall, West London. He suffered massive internal injuries and wounds to his head, leg and arm and was taken to Ealing Hospital.
Yesterday, he was fighting for his life in intensive care.
Doctors are reported to have told Mrs Edwards, a 61-year-old retired teacher, that her husband of 37 years could die within two or three days without a transfusion.
A family source said: 'Sheila is adamant that John must not have blood. She says giving him a transfusion would be like assaulting him - and he wouldn't want to live knowing he'd disobeyed his God.
'She's in a terrible state, constantly in tears at his bedside, but she won't give in to requests from anyone.'



A lodger at the couple's three-bedroom home in Southall said the family were 'devastated' by their situation.
She said the pair were both raised as Jehovah's Witnesses and were devoted to the religion, and added that Mr Edwards was a 'highly respected elder' who often spoke at prayer meetings.'
Mr Edwards' father Frederick said he hoped his son would recover naturally from his injuries.
The 88-year-old grandfather said: 'I believe he is now on the mend. He is in a stable condition and we are just hoping for the best.'


A neighbour of the couple, who refused to give her name, said: 'I feel very sad for them because it must be such a difficult time and a difficult-decision. But I cannot understand why they would refuse treatment that can save his life. It makes no sense to me.'
Paul Wade, a spokesman at the religion's London headquarters, said the faith's ban on blood transfusion was based on 'careful study of the Bible'.
He said: 'This man has held his beliefs for many decades and the hospital - to its credit - is respecting his wishes. It is an issue of personal choice.'
The driver of the silver Mercedes fled the scene but was later traced and arrested, police said.
The man, who is in his 20s, has been released on bail.
Police refused to comment on claims that he was breathalysed and found to be over the drink-drive limit.
Another Jehovah's Witness, 22-year- old Emma Gough, died last October after refusing to have a blood transfusion following the birth of her twins.
An inquest into the death of the young mother, of Telford, Shropshire, heard that she told a midwife she was happy to die rather than have the procedure.
Courts recently have respected the wishes of adult Witnesses to refuse transfusions but doctors can attempt to have medical responsibility transferred away from parents if they refuse treatment for their children.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz0xHWR4onq
:wa:
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جوري
08-21-2010, 10:21 PM
1-what are your beliefs
2-why should I subscribe to those beliefs
3-has anyone come back from the dead to validate your beliefs as true.
4-your beliefs are illogical why are they superior to any others in your opinion (including other christian denominations when you use the same corrupted bible but add your own twist)
5- does your god require you to go door to door shouldn't the truth stand on its own without indoctrination?
6- are blacks and whites created equal in your religion
7- why do you need to wear special under-wear and do you sell that at the gift shop adjacent to your church or does it come free when you are fully indoctrinated?
8- why does god ask you to withhold life and or limb saving treatment when sick?
Reply

aadil77
08-21-2010, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
1-what are your beliefs
2-why should I subscribe to those beliefs
3-has anyone come back from the dead to validate your beliefs as true.
4-your beliefs are illogical why are they superior to any others in your opinion (including other christian denominations when you use the same corrupted bible but add your own twist)
5- does your god require you to go door to door shouldn't the truth stand on its own without indoctrination?
6- are blacks and whites created equal in your religion
7- why do you need to wear special under-wear and do you sell that at the gift shop adjacent to your church or does it come free when you are fully indoctrinated?
8- why does god ask you to withhold life and or limb saving treatment when sick?

2 of them came to my door, one was black the other was white

lol
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*charisma*
08-21-2010, 10:48 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

You could just have them talk about their beliefs and ask them as many questions you can...maybe record the convo?
I'm guessing they come often, so you can use the material they have to conjure up a good debate for the next time they arrive.
I don't know how consistent they are with their beliefs but this is a good way to figure it out.

Fi aman allah
wsalaam
Reply

Cabdullahi
08-22-2010, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
2 of them came to my door, one was black the other was white

lol
the black guys isn't black that brother is a bounty
Reply

جوري
08-22-2010, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
2 of them came to my door, one was black the other was white

lol
just because they came together doesn't mean that there is equality ask them to quote you their book in that regard.. you might just sow the seeds of discord right there and then...
Reply

*Hana*
08-22-2010, 01:06 AM
Salam Alaikum Brother:

I'm not sure where the information came that they believe in the Divinity of Jesus, they don't. They believe in Jesus as the son of God, but not in equality....so He is a separate entity. They absolutely do use the bible and believe in it as well. I have received a number of free copies. lol I found the following information and copied it for you:

According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is one God, and since 1931, they have insisted that He be called "Jehovah." This is a corruption in the pronunciation of the Hebrew <Yahweh>, which occurred about the third century B.C. and was carried into the King James Bible's translation of <Yahweh> in Exodus 6:3. The Jehovah's Witnesses say that Jesus is God's Son, but is inferior to God. They condemn the Trinity as pagan idolatry and accordingly deny Christ's divinity. Russell even claimed that the Trinity was the idea of Satan. Ironically, however, when they baptize, they use the formula, "...In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Nevertheless, the Jehovah's Witnesses consider Jesus as the greatest Witness of all, inferior to no one except Jehovah Himself. Before existing as a human being, Jesus was a spiritual creature called the Logos, or Word, or even Michael the Archangel. He died as a man and was raised as an immortal Spirit-Son. His passion and death were the price He paid to regain for mankind the right to live eternally on earth. Indeed, the great multitude of true Witnesses hope in an earthly Paradise (These teachings echo the heresies which the early Church condemned beginning at the council of Nicea in 325).

They believe that the Bible is the only source of belief and rule of conduct. However, their Bible aids seem to have more strength. They are only allowed to use their own translation of the Bible and other official publications. Unfortunately, many purposeful mistranslations exist in their version to support their tenets. For example, in the New Testament, "Lord" is translated <Jehovah> except where it refers directly to Christ. In the Last Supper account, they translate, "Take, eat. This is My body." To "Take, eat. This means My body." To affirm that Jesus was created, they add the word other to Colossians 1:16, "By means of Him, everything was created...,"; "By means of Him, all other things were created in the heaven and upon the earth... All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, He is before all other things and by means of Him all other things were made to exist."

The Jehovah's Witnesses also deny the immortality of the soul, the existence of hell, and the seven sacraments. (Although they have ritual of baptism, they regard it as merely the exterior symbol of their dedication to the service of Jehovah.) They observe no feast—including Christmas—except the Memorial of the Last Supper, which they hold once a year after sundown on the 14th day of Nisan (a former method of computing the date of Easter and Passover) and during which only those who consider themselves as being among the celestial 144,000 may partake of the "emblems"—the bread and wine. They refuse blood transfusions. They also refuse to salute the flag, seeing this as an act of idolatry. They also condemn smoking.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are also preoccupied with Armageddon—the final clash between the forces of good and evil. Here God will destroy the old system of creation and establish Jehovah's Kingdom. A group of 144,000 spiritual sons of God will rise to heaven, rule with Christ, and share their happiness with the others. However, the wicked will undergo complete destruction. Russell said that this Armageddon could not happen later than 1914. (He had given specific dates and times on three earlier occasions, but was wrong). From 1920, Rutherford proclaimed that "millions now living will never die"; he also expected the "princes of old"—Abraham, Isaac, and the others—to come back to life by 1925 as rulers over the New World.

After so many mistaken predictions, the Watch Tower Society of the mid-20th century no longer specified an exact date for all of this to happen; but it repeated that "this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur." More recently, Nathan Knorr, who succeeded Rutherford in 1942 as head, predicted that the world would end in 1974; the world itself did not end, but this world did for Knorr—he died in 1974. Nevertheless, Witnesses are deeply convinced that the end of the world will come within a very few years.

Each member is considered an ordained minister to give witness to Jehovah by announcing His approaching Kingdom. He may do this by door-to-door evangelization, by meeting with others for home Bible studies, or by standing at street corners to display Watch Tower literature. Preaching the good news is the only means of salvation. Ordinarily, the entry level Jehovah's Witness is called a "servant". A "publisher," attends five hourly meetings a week and is to devote 10 hours a month witnessing. A "pioneer" gives 100 hours a month to the society.

The source is here: http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JWBELIEV.HTM I'm sorry, I don't remember the code to show just source. I will try to find it and fix the url. :hmm:

According to my new found friend, John, who comes a knockin' every now and then, they do believe the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms their beliefs. However, I just happen to have been studying the Scrolls for the past 5 years or so and I have yet to see for myself or from any other source that agrees with that.

Inshallah, this will provide you with some basic information.

Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana
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جوري
08-22-2010, 01:20 AM
woops sorry I don't know why I confused Mormons with Jehovah there for a while..

:w:

p.s Masha'Allah sis that was very informative ..
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Rabi Mansur
08-22-2010, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
1-what are your beliefs
2-why should I subscribe to those beliefs
3-has anyone come back from the dead to validate your beliefs as true.
4-your beliefs are illogical why are they superior to any others in your opinion (including other christian denominations when you use the same corrupted bible but add your own twist)
5- does your god require you to go door to door shouldn't the truth stand on its own without indoctrination?
6- are blacks and whites created equal in your religion
7- why do you need to wear special under-wear and do you sell that at the gift shop adjacent to your church or does it come free when you are fully indoctrinated?
8- why does god ask you to withhold life and or limb saving treatment when sick?
:sl:


Good points. But I think you are confusing some of their beliefs with Mormonism. JWs don't wear special underwear like devout Mormons do. They believe in the Bible, but they use their own translation. That makes it hard to bible-bash with them. Their translation supports their special beliefs. Any decent student of Greek can demonstrate the errors in their Bible translation.

Their translation of John1:1 is faulty. Other christian religions hammer on that all the time because their translation denies the divinity of Jesus.

Hence they do not believe that Jesus is God, so in that respect they might agree with Islam.They rely on the old men who run their church from headquarters to tell them what to believe and what to teach each Sunday.

You can ask them why they have predicted the end of the world so many times and it didn't happen. They are waiting for the end and it just doesn't happen. Why so many false prophecies? They probably don't have a very good answer for that.

I don't think they are racially prejudiced at all. Maybe I'm wrong but I've never come across any racist teachings from them. Mormonism used to deny the priesthood to blacks, but I think JWs have always allowed people of all races to lead.

They don't participate in the pledge of allegiance. They don't celebrate birthdays or other holidays. They vote but I'm not sure if they ever run for office.

I work with some JWs and they are real nice people. But I could never become one of them. It is too much of a brainwash.

They have to go door to door and spread the word. I recommend you talk to them. They probably don't understand Islam at all.

:wa:
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جوري
08-22-2010, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by Rabi Mansur
:sl:


Good points. But I think you are confusing some of their beliefs with Mormonism. JWs don't wear special underwear like devout Mormons do.
:wa:
^^ you are absolutely correct br. Rabi, and I did acknowledge my mistake .. Jazaka Allah khyran..

:w:
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Rabi Mansur
08-22-2010, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

^^ you are absolutely correct br. Rabi, and I did acknowledge my mistake .. Jazaka Allah khyran..

:w:
Oops. I missed that.

'Na Asf Ukti

رمضان مبارك

:statisfie
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*Hana*
08-22-2010, 02:41 AM
Salam Alaikum:

You're right that many do not have a lot of knowledge about Islam. In my experience, when you explain a particular belief of Islam and they are unable to respond, they most often admit they didn't know it and will tell you they will come back after speaking with others. Some will come back, while others will not. They have always been extremely kind when they came to my house and I too have worked with many and have also found them to be very kind.

I've tried a lot of searches to try to study their beliefs, but the information is very scarce. Usually what I find is anti-JW sites, which are useless.

Inshallah, the brother will have enough understanding of their basic beliefs to engage in conversation with them.

Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana
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Rabi Mansur
08-22-2010, 02:59 AM
:sl:

One of the main differences between JWs and Orthodox Christianity is with regard to Jesus Christ. Here is basically what JWs believe about Jesus (copied from another site):

JW’s believe that Jesus Christ was a perfect man, and that He is a person distinct from God the Father. However, they also teach that before His earthly life, Jesus was a spirit creature, Michael the archangel, who was created by God and became the Messiah at His baptism. According to Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jesus is a mighty one, although not almighty as Jehovah God is. According to John 1:1 in their Bible, The New World Translation, Christ is “a god,” but not “the God.” They teach that Jesus “was and is and always will be beneath Jehovah” and that “Christ and God are not coequal”.
So as you can see, they do not subscribe to a belief in the trinity. I think that would be a good starting point for a Muslim to engage a JW in discussion. You could point out that Islam does not subscribe to a belief in the trinity either, and show them what the Qur'an teaches about Isa. That might be some common ground for a discussion.

:wa:
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أحمد
08-22-2010, 03:14 AM
:sl:

Its been over a year since any Jehovas Witnesses knocked on my door. We had some rather interesting conversations on topics of scriptures, society, faith, morality, theology, salvation and corruption. They would usually come in twos, sometimes one, sometimes a small group. I wouldn't have a clue why they stopped coming, though their absence seems to have coincided with the recession.

:wa:
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Woodrow
08-22-2010, 03:39 AM
:sl:

As has already been mentioned, you can not use the same arguments as refutations about JWs as you would use to refute Christianity. They believe so much different that many if not most Christians do not view them as being Christian.

They are one of the newer cults having been founded in 1872 by Charles Taze Russell. They do use a Bible version that is considerably different than any other. They do not believe in the existence of the soul. They do not believe there is a hell and they believe heaven is already filled. they believe heaven only had room for 144,000 people and those 144,000 are already there. They believe that after the final judgment the JWs will be recreated and will live in eternity on a now everlasting earth. their lives will be much the same, everybody will have jobs, food will be plentiful etc. The non- JWs will not be recreated and all memory of them will be erased.

Their primary source of scripture comes from their "Watch Tower" magazine. Apparently according to them revelations are still being handed down and sent only to the "The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society", their official name, and they claim to be God’s prophet on Earth.

They are very anti-Christian, anti-Jew, anti-Muslim, anti-everybody except JWs. Their main means of gaining members is to befriend people, share things with them develop a friendship and then tell them the friendship ends unless the person becomes a JW.

Very difficult group to reach, impossible to reach if you use anything disapproving Christianity, as they already agree that Christianity is false (except for the JWs)

One ploy they use with Christians is they often conduct "Bible Studies" based upon the KJV and slowly point out discrepancies and how the Bible does not support the trinity, all the time proclaiming the bible is the truth. The JWs are not Trinitarian (Maybe they have one good point) but when approaching Christians they will often appear to be so.
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جوري
08-22-2010, 04:22 AM
^^ sob7an Allah akhi.. that is very informative.. I really enjoy concise pieces like that..

:w:
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Woodrow
08-22-2010, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
^^ sob7an Allah akhi.. that is very informative.. I really enjoy concise pieces like that..

:w:
:sl:

One of my cousins became a JW nearly 50 years ago. At first she did her best to convert the rest of us. When we did not convert she "shunned" us. She has not spoken to any of her blood relatives for over 40 years now. I learned that if a JW fails to convert a person, they are to write that person out of their life and avoid all contact with them.

Yet at the same time there are some points about JWs that make them attractive to some people. You can say they are near the right path, but somehow going in the wrong direction on it.

Some points about what they believe

1. They are not to support any man made government. Can not be a soldier in any nations army. Many were jailed in the USA during WW2 for being draft dodgers. Until a law was passed making Being a conscientious objector a Draft exemption.

2. they do not celebrate any holidays

3. They are not to go to war except to fight for god in the coming "Battle of Armageddon" (I use the small g as their concept does not seem to be what we know as God(swt))

4. They believe blood transfusion is a sin, even if it is to save a life.

5. They are not trinitarians

6. They can not have any non JWs as friends except for the purpose of converting them and if they do not convert, they are to sever all ties with them.

7. They can not have any contact with any ex JW

8. They seem to avoid music and the party life so common in the west.

9. Witnesses are not allowed to read any information that is contrary to the Watchtower. This includes material from former Witnesses, insincere Witnesses or someone who was never a Witnesses.
(A Witness is forbidden to read the Qur'an, that makes it difficult to approach them with Truth from the Qur'an))
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جوري
08-22-2010, 09:15 AM
Sob7an Allah, some of their basic beliefs are so contrary to common sense and to Islam.. firstly abandoning ones family, and secondly withholding life-saving treatment amongst other things.. good thing that medicine doesn't recognize this when the decision comes to minors, I have encountered one Jehova who was aptly against a blood transfusion but ended up having one anyway when she came close to death, it made me feel like if she really held on to those beliefs then she would have been willing to die for them.. still I appreciate how they pointed out all that is wrong with Christianity as someone really studied in the matter could.. I have read many of their articles against saul/paul and found them quite concise, appropriately quoted and lucid.. too bad the lucidity is lost when it comes to their own beliefs.. who in their right mind would subscribe to a religion so exclusive and where a god would have made his choice over who is saved and to hell with the rest quite literally.

I can never accept a religion that caters to a select few or where god has a preference to a handful of people.. where is the hope, where is the free will, what is there to look forward to, what is the point of it?
if they don't read the Quran then on what basis or logic are they refuting Muslims, or rather trying to indoctrinate them--just a mass dumping of irrelevant material so contrary to man's nature that they merely hope will take hold?

:w:
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Woodrow
08-22-2010, 09:47 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Sob7an Allah, some of their basic beliefs are so contrary to common sense and to Islam.. firstly abandoning ones family, and secondly withholding life-saving treatment amongst other things.. good thing that medicine doesn't recognize this when the decision comes to minors, I have encountered one Jehova who was aptly against a blood transfusion but ended up having one anyway when she came close to death, it made me feel like if she really held on to those beliefs then she would have been willing to die for them.. still I appreciate how they pointed out all that is wrong with Christianity as someone really studied in the matter could.. I have read many of their articles against saul/paul and found them quite concise, appropriately quoted and lucid.. too bad the lucidity is lost when it comes to their own beliefs.. who in their right mind would subscribe to a religion so exclusive and where a god would have made his choice over who is saved and to hell with the rest quite literally.

I can never accept a religion that caters to a select few or where god has a preference to a handful of people.. where is the hope, where is the free will, what is there to look forward to, what is the point of it?
if they don't read the Quran then on what basis or logic are they refuting Muslims, or rather trying to indoctrinate them--just a mass dumping of irrelevant material so contrary to man's nature that they merely hope will take hold?

:w:
:sl:

They do have some of the best refutations regarding Paul, that I have ever read and they also are good at exposing the fallacies of Catholicism. I believe they were one of the first groups to bring attention to the abusive Priests.

It is sad that they have failed to look inward at themselves and see that they are doing the same things they refute so strongly.

They are so close to the door of truth it is within their reach, but they refuse to see the door much less open it.

I find them to be a very difficult group to reach as they do have a very thick wall they built around themselves that makes it near impossible for the truth to penetrate. If they are to see the truth, they have to first climb down from their watch tower.

They have a very bizarre hierarchical order in their belief in which they are divided into separate orders, almost a secret society type concept.

Here in the US their fastest growth comes during times of war as their exemption from military service as "Conscientious Objectors" is a strong attraction to those who refuse Military Duty.
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Grace Seeker
08-22-2010, 08:47 PM
Funny this thread should appear at this time. As I was unpacking my books in my new office, a person came in just as I was putting some JW stuff on my shelves. I think they were surprised that their pastor would have such stuff, but I have a fairly eclectic collection of books representing the views of many widely diverse religious groups. What's unique about the JW material is that I have a lot of not just primary source material, but first generation primary source material. My great-grandfather was a JW back at the turn of the 20th century, and from them I am able to show those that knock at my door that more than just a few JW beliefs have changed during the last 100+ years.

As for JW beliefs that a follower of Islam would care about:
1) JWs believe that there is one and only one god. God is the god of the Old Testament, and his personal name is Jehovah.
2) Christian belief in the Trinity originated with Satan.
(This might be confusing because JW's in predominately Christian cultures will present themselves as Christians, and suggest that they are the only ones who correctly practice true Christianity. In non-Christian cultures, they don't seem to care to make that identification.)
3) Jesus is the first son that Jehovah God brought forth, but is just another part of creation. Jesus had a pre-human existence as Michael the arch-angel, and it is in this form that he is the only-begotten son of God. He was born as the human Jesus by the Virgin Mary. He became the anointed Messiah at his baptism by John. He showed that he lived a life of subjection to God by humbling himself to a most disgraceful death not on a Roman cross, but on a torture stake. He did not raise from the dead in the flesh, but with a spiritual body and is now a mighty immortal spirit Son of God.
4) The holy spirit is nothing more than the invisible active force of God by which he moves his servants to do his will.
5) Sin is failing to live up to God's standard which is perfection. Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God's plainly stated law, and so had to die. That death was a return to dust and nothingness. Adam's sin means several things:
5a) that all who come after Adam in time inherit an imperfect world.
5b) that all who descend from Adam are born in sin with wayward tendencies.
5c) that Adam not only brought death upon himself, but all humanity will live and die as mortal beings because the perfect human life has been lost.
6) Redemption or Salvation means restoring our perfect human life to us. But this requires two things:
6a) The offering of a perfect human life (equal to that which Adam forfeited) to pay the redemptive price -- Jesus supposedly did this.
6b) The living of a obedient lives as witness on Jehovah's behalf, dedicated to do Jehovah's will.
7) There is a strong belief that Jehovah will make all things right when he returns to acknowledge those who are his true witnesses and those who are false. This will be the battle of Armageddon and after it survivors will find life on earth a new paradise once again. All who reject or resist will be utterly destroyed; they are not just doomed to hell, but are annihilated in it so that it is as if they never had been.
8) The most important thing a JW can do is to witness to Jehovah. But they are warned to expect that anyone who is a true witness for Jehovah will experience rejection. So, when you shut the door in the face of a JW at your door, you are confirming their belief in themselves as being true followers of Jehovah.
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Grace Seeker
08-22-2010, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
They are so close to the door of truth it is within their reach, but they refuse to see the door much less open it.
It is interesting that you view JWs as being "so close to the door of truth". I see them as lightyears away from it. As I shared with the person who entered my office as I unpack my books representing various religions, I would rather have a child of mine become a follower of Islam than to become a Jehovah's Witness.
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Woodrow
08-23-2010, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
It is interesting that you view JWs as being "so close to the door of truth". I see them as lightyears away from it.
Peace Gene,

What I see as close would understandably be seen as barriers to you. Such as their not being Trinitarian (Although I may be wrong and possibly the way they seem to place Jesus(as) as a lesser god, but still a god, may make me rethink that.) But I do see agreement with Islam in the non-celebrating of most holidays, placing God(swt) above Nationalism and their usual modest dressing. Also the fact they avoid rowdy parties.



Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As I shared with the person who entered my office as I unpack my books representing various religions, I would rather have a child of mine become a follower of Islam than to become a Jehovah's Witness.
Me Too ;D
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Sarada
08-23-2010, 02:26 PM
I abhor any kind of prosletysing. Especially the aggressiveness of the Jehova's Witnesses. If you want people to join your religion, then lead by example, show them what you believe to be the right path by living it yourself. When people ask about your faith and religion, of course, answer them, and explain. But be respectful.
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aadil77
08-26-2010, 07:58 PM
Alhamdulillah

They came over the other day, I refuted their beliefs easily - made them look like right idiots (in a respectful way), then I talked to them about islam and sent them home each with a Pickthall translation of the Quran

Apparently they don't believe in hell, that earth will be turned into paradise, they believe that death is a punishment (LOL), didn't know how far they are from mainstream christianity
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Woodrow
08-26-2010, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Alhamdulillah

They came over the other day, I refuted their beliefs easily - made them look like right idiots (in a respectful way), then I talked to them about islam and sent them home each with a Pickthall translation of the Quran

Apparently they don't believe in hell, that earth will be turned into paradise, they believe that death is a punishment (LOL), didn't know how far they are from mainstream christianity
:sl:

Inaha Allaah possibly they may read the Qur'an. If they do so you may just win a revert. As JW teachings forbid them from reading the Qur'an, in their eyes they would be committing a serious sin to read it, so if any do read it, it is a strong indication they have doubts about JW.
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Danah
08-26-2010, 09:19 PM
Very interesting thread and replies!!

Originally Posted by aadil77
Alhamdulillah

They came over the other day, I refuted their beliefs easily - made them look like right idiots (in a respectful way), then I talked to them about islam and sent them home each with a Pickthall translation of the Quran

Apparently they don't believe in hell, that earth will be turned into paradise, they believe that death is a punishment (LOL), didn't know how far they are from mainstream christianity
Good work bro! inshaAllah they will read it, actually I hope they will read it but if they are strict JWs then I suspect they will do as that will be a great sin as uncle Woodrow said.

Maybe they have such rule to prevent their followers from knowing the truth! because I can't recall any religion that prevent its followers from reading other scriptures!

So in other words, they just want their followers to blindly believe in their belief :hmm:
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Woodrow
08-26-2010, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Danah

Maybe they have such rule to prevent their followers from knowing the truth! because I can't recall any religion that prevent its followers from reading other scriptures!

So in other words, they just want their followers to blindly believe in their belief :hmm:
:sl:

That is true, which makes them seem to more of a cult rather than a religion. There is a lot of secrecy within them as an organization. Most seems to be designed to keep the members from learning about other beliefs.

This is sad as most that I have met are very nice and friendly people. Very generous, thoughtful of others and always willing to help anybody in need.
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aadil77
08-27-2010, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Inaha Allaah possibly they may read the Qur'an. If they do so you may just win a revert. As JW teachings forbid them from reading the Qur'an, in their eyes they would be committing a serious sin to read it, so if any do read it, it is a strong indication they have doubts about JW.
I could tell one of them seemed a bit reluctant to take the Quran - when I was giving it to her she said she's read the Quran before - I just pretended not to hear her and handed her it anyway

but the other opened it and started reading it infront of me and incidently the first page she came across talked about Maryam and the birth of prophet Isa, she seemed quite interested in it

some of the things I asked them definately made them think about their beliefs, they had to twist their words in order to give acceptable answers
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-27-2010, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Apparently they don't believe in hell, that earth will be turned into paradise, they believe that death is a punishment (LOL), didn't know how far they are from mainstream christianity
Originally Posted by Danah
Maybe they have such rule to prevent their followers from knowing the truth! because I can't recall any religion that prevent its followers from reading other scriptures!

So in other words, they just want their followers to blindly believe in their belief :hmm:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

That is true, which makes them seem to more of a cult rather than a religion. There is a lot of secrecy within them as an organization. Most seems to be designed to keep the members from learning about other beliefs.
Now, can you see why I have objected in other threads when some on this forum have mistakenly grouped JWs within Christianity? I have different set of issues with Mormonism, but they don't fit within orthodox Christianity either.
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جوري
08-27-2010, 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, can you see why I have objected in other threads when some on this forum have mistakenly grouped JWs within Christianity? I have different set of issues with Mormonism, but they don't fit within orthodox Christianity either.
from our perspective all of Christianity is faulty, for there is nothing after worshiping a man that can possibly be anymore deviant or any worse..

all the best
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Grace Seeker
08-28-2010, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

from our perspective all of Christianity is faulty, for there is nothing after worshiping a man that can possibly be anymore deviant or any worse..

all the best
Yes, I understand that from your perspective all of Christianity is faulty. But what of JWs? They don't worship a man, and on that basis alone they aren't Christian.
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Rabi Mansur
08-28-2010, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yes, I understand that from your perspective all of Christianity is faulty. But what of JWs? They don't worship a man, and on that basis alone they aren't Christian.
That is why I mentioned to Bro Aadil some possible common ground for discussion being the role of Jesus. The JW's don't treat Jesus as God. They don't believe in the trinity. From that perspective a Muslim may have some room for discussion with a JW.

Maybe the missionary who was willing to read the Qur'an will learn a thing or two.

:wa:
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Karl
08-28-2010, 02:35 AM
The Nazis used to persecute the JWs, they may have links with Zionism. Also they are very sycophantic to the secularist systems and laws of the land. Their head office is in New York and they seem to go along with the Zionist American way. Their magazines are full of propaganda a bit like a religious version of Time magazine.
I have talked to them about Islam and they seemed to like the fact I was a believer in God. They wanted to visit me regularly to teach me their religion, but I said I am studying Islam and not interested. That was a long time ago and they never came back. They probably thought I was too much of a tough nut to crack.
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جوري
08-28-2010, 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But what of JWs?
what of them? as the great mother of a martyr once said, ''does it matter if you skin the sheep after you have slaughtered it?'' it wouldn't matter whom you consider outside the folds of Christianity when from our perspective there is no greater sin than the one you are currently committing!
There are so many Christians with different beliefs that run the gamut from hutterites to uniterians each undoubtedly thinking the others heretics..from our perspective they all are heretics!

all the best!
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Grace Seeker
08-28-2010, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

There are so many Christians with different beliefs that run the gamut from hutterites to uniterians each undoubtedly thinking the others heretics..from our perspective they all are heretics!
That shows as little understanding of Christianity as if someone were to say that there are many different kinds of Islam from Ahmadi to Nation of Islam, from Sufi to Wahhabi.
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جوري
08-28-2010, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
That shows as little understanding of Christianity as if someone were to say that there are many different kinds of Islam from Ahmadi to Nation of Islam, from Sufi to Wahhabi.
I know you like to use the 'ahmadi' crap often.. fact is you have a zillion bible with no consensus on which one is the 'real bible' after all god isn't the author of confusion or is he? So which sect of you is correct? who knows, you are all equally deviant!
In Islam we have one Quran for the 85-90% sunnies and the same with remaining shiites.. ahmadis have their own british imperialist written Quran and lick and follow the boots of their British gods so again your example fails and I hope you retain this information this time for the next time you desire to use the 'ahamdi' example to make your usual non-point!

all the best
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Grace Seeker
08-29-2010, 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I hope you retain this information this time for the next time you desire to use the 'ahamdi' example to make your usual non-point!

all the best
Or maybe you will finally see that this is exactly the point that you are blind to. The differences between Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant, and of no more importance in the long run than are the differences between Sunni and Shi'a. But the JWs are a completely different story. While we worship Christ, they do not. Surely any reasonable definition of Christianity needs to include that rather obvious detail.

Just as you complain that the Ahmadi have their own version of the Qur'an, so too the JWs have their own scriptures as well.

You don't except the Ahamdi as being part of Islam. Well, I do. And since I'm not a Muslim certainly I should be able to say who is and who is not a Muslim. That is the whole basis of your arguement with regard to these spurious sects that have nothing to do with Christianity, other than that they like to mis-use the term and apply it to themselves just like the Ahmadi do in your case. So, every time you give credence to one of these psuedo-Christian cults as being a true part of Christianity, you can bet I'll bring up the Ahmadi, the Sufi, and the Nation of Islam again and again and again.

all the best
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جوري
08-29-2010, 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Or maybe you will finally see that this is exactly the point that you are blind to. The differences between Catholic, Orthodox, and protestant, and of no more importance in the long run than are the differences between Sunni and Shi'a. But the JWs are a completely different story. While we worship Christ, they do not. Surely any reasonable definition of Christianity needs to include that rather obvious detail.
'obvious' by popular vote, I understand!
Just as you complain that the Ahmadi have their own version of the Qur'an, so too the JWs have their own scriptures as well.
They seem to be using your own scriptures to point out the obvious not one that came to them courtesy of some colonialists!
You don't except the Ahamdi as being part of Islam. Well, I do. And since I'm not a Muslim certainly I should be able to say who is and who is not a Muslim. That is the whole basis of your arguement with regard to these spurious sects that have nothing to do with Christianity, other than that they like to mis-use the term and apply it to themselves just like the Ahmadi do in your case. So, every time you give credence to one of these psuedo-Christian cults as being a true part of Christianity, you can bet I'll bring up the Ahmadi, the Sufi, and the Nation of Islam again and again and again.
Not at all, the basis of the argument is, that if your whole religion is faulty whether you believe in a mangod or not, and none of you with a consensus on what the bible ought to include, if in fact you voted on the deification of your messenger then you can stand to vote on his non-deification using the same methodology, or is the fact that it happened of antiquity loan it more credence? this is further cemented by your own admission that the bible isn't the word of god, then what difference would it make if they read the same passages and come up with a different interpretation than yours, you can call them a cult all you want, they are equally deviant to the rest of Christianity but certainly less obnoxious and in your face as Glenn Beck and his crowd!


all the best
all the best indeed
Reply

Hiroshi
08-31-2010, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
:sl:

Once again they came to my door and tried handing me their leaflets - only this time I didn't accept them, but instead they've agreed to come round my house next week and have a 'little' discussion.

For me this seems like a serious dawa'h opp, they already started feeling uneasy when I asked them where in the bible does it say jesus is the begotten son.

Basically my plan is to disprove some of their beliefs then hopefully start talking to them about islam and I wanna hand them a quran english translation in the end.

I don't know much about their beliefs, so if someone can highlight the main beliefs I can hammer them on, that would great

JazakhAllah khair


btw whats with all the stupid center aligning?
Hi Aadil77.

I am a Jehovah's Witness. So you can practice on me if you like and then be prepared for when they come back.
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aadil77
08-31-2010, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Hi Aadil77.

I am a Jehovah's Witness. So you can practice on me if you like and then be prepared for when they come back.
interesting, well as I mentioned above they came round we had our discussion and they went, one of them seemed quite interested in the Quran - don't know if they'll come again in the future

so you're a JW, well tell me then how death (not existing) can be a just punishment for a lifetime of sin?

what leads you to believe that hell does not exist?

and what leads you to believe that god has a begotten son? and does this make sense to you?
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Hiroshi
08-31-2010, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
interesting, well as I mentioned above they came round we had our discussion and they went, one of them seemed quite interested in the Quran - don't know if they'll come again in the future

so you're a JW, well tell me then how death (not existing) can be a just punishment for a lifetime of sin?

what leads you to believe that hell does not exist?
A lot of people feel that there can be no justice and proper punishment without a hell of torment. But what you have to consider is that the future stretches on into eternity. And so punishment in hell would literally be infinite: unending. Now however evil or destructive a person has behaved in their lifetime, whatever wickedness they would have committed would be limited. It wouldn't be justice to chastise them forever for a limited period of sin.

God's punishment always has a purpose. When he brings suffering and hardship upon someone as a consequence for sin, it is with the view of changing that person's course, making them turn around and repent of their sins. This took place with King Manasseh the king of Judah. He filled Jerusalem with bloodshed, practiced idolatry, the occult and magic and did worse than any king before him. But when God punished him and he was taken into exile by a pagan nation he repented and changed completely.

Obviously though, those ones supposedly burning in hell would have no opportunity to repent and regain God's favour. They would be stuck in hell forever. Their ongoing suffering would serve no purpose.

Hell does, of course, exist and is referred to in the Bible. "Hell" is translated from the Hebrew word: "sheol" and the Greek words: "hades" and "gehenna". But the meanings of these terms does not correspond with a place of eternal fiery torment. Sheol and hades mean the same thing: the grave. Gehenna corresponds to the Hebrew "Gei-Hinnom" (from where the Qur'an's Arabic term "jahannam" is derived) meaning the "Valley of Hinnom". This was the location, not of a place of torture, but of a burning rubbish dump. Hence gehenna fitly represents a place of total and final destruction.

This is a very broad and simplified overview. I could go into much more detail if you wish.

The real starting point to lead into a study of this subject would be to consider what is meant by a "soul". A soul is not some immaterial, immortal part of man. Rather, soul means a living person and could even mean an animal.
Originally Posted by aadil77

and what leads you to believe that god has a begotten son? and does this make sense to you?
It makes sense to me that God has created living beings and given them life. Mankind and the angels are made in God's image, and since a father is a life-giver, God can be viewed as their Father and they can be called sons of God. We believe that Jesus was the first creation of God and so, in a special sense, his son. The word for "only-begotten" is understood to literally mean: "unique", "one of a kind". I don't see a problem with saying that Jesus is the first creation, the only one of his kind.
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جوري
08-31-2010, 04:41 PM
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 41 Surah Haa Meem verse 46:

46 Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His servants!
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 22 Surah Hajj verses 7-10:
7 And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves.
8 Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah without knowledge, without guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment.
9 (Disdainfully) bending his side in order to (lead men) astray from the Path of Allah; for him there is disgrace in this life and on the Day of Judgment we shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
10 (It will be said): "This is because of the deeds which thy hands sent forth for verily Allah is never unjust to His servants!

One amongst the many Noble and Exclusive Attributes of our Lord Creator is that He is the' 'Al-Aadil' or the All-Just; and it does not behove and befit His Majesty and His Mercy to ever be unjust to any in His creation.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 17 Surah Israa verses 13-15:

13 Every man`s augury We have fastened on his own neck: on the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll which he will see spread open.
14 (It will be said to him:) "Read thine (own) record: sufficient is thy soul this day to make out an account against thee."
15 Who receiveth guidance receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent Our messenger!

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 26 Surah Shuaraa verses 208-209:

208 Never did We destroy a people but had its warners
209 by way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 35 Surah Faatir verse 24:

24 Verily We have sent thee (O Prophet) in Truth, as a bearer of glad tidings and as a warner: and there never was a people without a warner having lived among them.

And just to make absolutely sure that this Just-Law is implemented and that one who has not received the Message of their Lord is punished, every time a people are about to be cast into the dungeons of the Hell Fire, they will be asked by the guardian Angels of the Hell Fire whether or not a warner from their Lord came to them and recited to them the Warning and the Message of their Lord! And every wrongdoer at the gates of Hell Fire on that Tumultuous Day will indeed admit and confess himself that Allah's warner did indeed come unto them, but it was they themselves who in their arrogance rejected Allah's Message and His Warning!
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 67 Surah Mulk verses 6-11:

6 For those who reject their Lord is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such) destination.
7 When they are cast therein they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath, even as it blazes forth.
8 Almost bursting with fury: every time a group is cast therein its keepers (the Angels) will ask "Did no warner come to you?"
9 They will say: "Yes indeed: a warner did come to us but we rejected him and said `Allah never sent down any (Message): ye are in nothing but an egregious delusion!` "
10 They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the companions of the Blazing Fire!"
11 They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire!

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 39 Surah Zumar verses 71-72:

71 The unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowds; until when they arrive there its gates will be opened and its Keepers (the Angels) will say "Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the decree of punishment has been proved true against the unbelievers!"
72 (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell to dwell therein: and evil is (this) abode of the arrogant!"
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 35 Surah Fatir verses 36-37:

36 But those who reject (Allah) for them will be the Fire of Hell: no term shall be determined for them so they should die nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them: thus do We reward every ungrateful ones!
37 Therein will they cry aloud (for assistance): "O Our Lord! Bring us out: we shall work righteousness not the (deeds) we used to do!" Did We not give you long enough life so that he that would should receive admonition? And (moreover) the warner came to you! So taste ye (the fruit of your deeds): for the wrongdoers there is no helper."



the operative word here is sinning against the soul, the soul is eternal, and committing a sin is an estrangement from God and a breech in his covenant. As such indeed deserves eternal punishment for unlike worldly sins which can be expiated, a sin against the soul is ever lasting for God in creating us has bestowed upon us with that the gift of two lives.

Just as there is eternal heaven, so there is an eternal hell.. else what would be the point? What theme would this earth run on? one would be better off an atheist than holding on to such odd beliefs... further compounded by the ridiculous rituals and lack of common sense for instance refusing blood transfusions, well if you fear no hell (not that hell would be a punishment for one seeking medical attention) then why bother at all hold on to such silliness, further impose it on your loved ones in cases where life and limb saving treatment is needed.


Thank God medicine has more common sense and autonomy is limited to self and not minors when it comes to life threatening situations.



your descriptions of Jouhnam being a dump in Israel is perpetuated by the un-educated only..
how about you find us the derivatives of:


Jahannam:
“Truly Jahannam
[an-Naba, 78: 21]
Latha:
[Ma’arij, 70: 15-16]
Al-Hutamah
[al Humazah, 104: 4-7]
Sa’eer
[ash-Shura, 42: 7]
Saqar:
[al Muddaththir, 74: 26-29]
Al-Jaheem
[ash-Shu’ara, 26: 91]
Al-Hawiyah
[al Qar’iah, 101: 8-11]
and last but certainly not least!
Zamhareer



or did they not teach you about those where they have you indoctrinated?



all the best
Reply

aadil77
08-31-2010, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
A lot of people feel that there can be no justice and proper punishment without a hell of torment. But what you have to consider is that the future stretches on into eternity. And so punishment in hell would literally be infinite: unending. Now however evil or destructive a person has behaved in their lifetime, whatever wickedness they would have committed would be limited. It wouldn't be justice to chastise them forever for a limited period of sin.
Nope it is justice, especially when you blaspheme against god and claim he has a son or a daughter when all you have to do is except he was one, god is most severe in punishment. He is above the claims of humans who attribute to Him humanistic traits

God's punishment always has a purpose. When he brings suffering and hardship upon someone as a consequence for sin, it is with the view of changing that person's course, making them turn around and repent of their sins. This took place with King Manasseh the king of Judah. He filled Jerusalem with bloodshed, practiced idolatry, the occult and magic and did worse than any king before him. But when God punished him and he was taken into exile by a pagan nation he repented and changed completely.
How do you know that 'harship and suffering' is purely punishment? A baby could go through hardship although it is sinless. The wisdom of gods trials are only with Him, His trials can be a source of blessings and rewards or they can be punishment - you can't just claim they're purely punishment.

The JW lady who came to my house said that children are not innocent, that they're born with sins - couldn't believe the words coming out her mouth

Is this what you call justice? to punish toddlers for another persons mistake?

Obviously though, those ones supposedly burning in hell would have no opportunity to repent and regain God's favour. They would be stuck in hell forever. Their ongoing suffering would serve no purpose.
Whats the purpose of approximately 100 years of life on this earth then, only to be given another (unfair) chance when you're certain of the truth?

Is it Just that a man lives a lifetime of sin, rejects faith in the Al-Mighty is to be given another chance when he comes face to face with god?

Hell does, of course, exist and is referred to in the Bible. "Hell" is translated from the Hebrew word: "sheol" and the Greek words: "hades" and "gehenna". But the meanings of these terms does not correspond with a place of eternal fiery torment. Sheol and hades mean the same thing: the grave. Gehenna corresponds to the Hebrew "Gei-Hinnom" (from where the Qur'an's Arabic term "jahannam" is derived) meaning the "Valley of Hinnom". This was the location, not of a place of torture, but of a burning rubbish dump. Hence gehenna fitly represents a place of total and final destruction.
It doesn't concern a muslim what the corresponding hebrew translation for the arabic word Hell is

Your bible describes hell but you choose to ignore it, the JW's that came to my house said the image of hell given in the bible is not literal - that was quite amusing - choosing to dismiss something that could negatively affect you - ironic?

This is a very broad and simplified overview. I could go into much more detail if you wish.

The real starting point to lead into a study of this subject would be to consider what is meant by a "soul". A soul is not some immaterial, immortal part of man. Rather, soul means a living person and could even mean an animal.

It makes sense to me that God has created living beings and given them life. Mankind and the angels are made in God's image, and since a father is a life-giver, God can be viewed as their Father and they can be called sons of God. We believe that Jesus was the first creation of God and so, in a special sense, his son. The word for "only-begotten" is understood to literally mean: "unique", "one of a kind". I don't see a problem with saying that Jesus is the first creation, the only one of his kind.
If Jesus (peace be upon him) was the first of creation then why was he not the first man on earth? Why did he have to born again through mary? The bible describes Adam (peace be upon him) being created with no parents, doesn't that make him even more 'unique' than Jesus (peace be upon him)? Does that also make him a son of god?

God is the one like no other, he can't be very unique if he decides to take up a beget a son like humans (may Allah forgive me)
Reply

Grace Seeker
08-31-2010, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
God is the one like no other, he can't be very unique if he decides to take up a beget a son like humans (may Allah forgive me)

Define "beget" please. What does it mean to say "he decides to take up a beget [sic] son like humans"?

I find that some people have such a misunderstanding of the begetting of the Son, so different than that which the Bible puts forth, that I would disbelieve it too. It is not at all like how humans beget one another.
Reply

aadil77
08-31-2010, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Define "beget" please. What does it mean to say "he decides to take up a beget [sic] son like humans"?

I find that some people have such a misunderstanding of the begetting of the Son, so different than that which the Bible puts forth, that I would disbelieve it too. It is not at all like how humans beget one another.
be·get/biˈget/Verb1. (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

well then he can't be the 'begotten son', and if he's not the begotten son then what is he? he's about as much of a son as I am to god
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-01-2010, 12:26 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
be·get/biˈget/Verb1. (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) Bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

well then he can't be the 'begotten son', and if he's not the begotten son then what is he? he's about as much of a son as I am to god
He is the monogenes, however you translate that into English is up to you. It is a hybrid word that you don't find outside of the few places where it is used in the Bible. So, you have to get its meaning primarily from the context. The KJV and several other translations have decided to translate it "begotten"; the NIV translates it "one and only", others use the term "unique". "Begotten" is a more literally understanding of the words from which it is composed, but "unique" makes better sense when utilizing dynamic equivilance rules for translating. There will forever be an argument between translators as they weigh how much stress to put on which end of the spectrum in the translation process. But either way, outside of this forum, I've never heard anyone suggest that these Biblical passages are trying to communicate the idea that the Son was brought into existence as a result of reproduction. Indeed the (trinitarian) Christian view -- which I stress is in contradistinction to that of JWs, Mormons, and Unitarians -- is that the Son has always existed since before the act of creation, that there is no time when the Son was not. Therefore, the Son cannot be the result of any sort of reproduction, human like or otherwise.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 06:06 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 41 Surah Haa Meem verse 46:

46 Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His servants!
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 22 Surah Hajj verses 7-10:
7 And verily the Hour will come: there can be no doubt about it or about (the fact) that Allah will raise up all who are in the graves.
8 Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah without knowledge, without guidance, and without a Book of Enlightenment.
9 (Disdainfully) bending his side in order to (lead men) astray from the Path of Allah; for him there is disgrace in this life and on the Day of Judgment we shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire).
Asking a Muslim not to believe in hellfire is the same as asking a Muslim not to believe in the Qur'an. Unquestionably the Qur'an teaches that there is eternal fiery torment for the wicked after death and even gives reasons to justify this. All I can say is that the Bible gives a different picture.

According to the Qur'an and hadith you yourself will go to burn in hell after you die.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 78, Number 650 says:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Any Muslim who has lost three of his children will not be touched by the Fire except that which will render Allah's oath fulfilled."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/078.sbt.html


"Allah's Oath" referred to here is that mentioned in Surah 19:71 which promises that everyone must enter hell for a time. Surah 19:72 then goes on to say that the righteous will be delivered out of hell but the wrongdoers would be left there.

Not a happy message.

Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
If Jesus (peace be upon him) was the first of creation then why was he not the first man on earth? Why did he have to born again through mary?
Jesus existed in heaven before any man was created on earth.


Originally Posted by aadil77
The bible describes Adam (peace be upon him) being created with no parents, doesn't that make him even more 'unique' than Jesus (peace be upon him)? Does that also make him a son of god?
Yes. The Bible calls Adam: "son of God".
Reply

جوري
09-01-2010, 08:54 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Asking a Muslim not to believe in hellfire is the same as asking a Muslim not to believe in the Qur'an. Unquestionably the Qur'an teaches that there is eternal fiery torment for the wicked after death and even gives reasons to justify this. All I can say is that the Bible gives a different picture.

According to the Qur'an and hadith you yourself will go to burn in hell after you die.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 78, Number 650 says:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "Any Muslim who has lost three of his children will not be touched by the Fire except that which will render Allah's oath fulfilled."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/078.sbt.html


"Allah's Oath" referred to here is that mentioned in Surah 19:71 which promises that everyone must enter hell for a time. Surah 19:72 then goes on to say that the righteous will be delivered out of hell but the wrongdoers would be left there.

Not a happy message.
I wouldn't be using the 'Jewish''Muslim'' engagement' to make a point to a Muslim wouldn't you think?
and even if every Muslim were to go to hell which isn't actually the case, it wouldn't make it any more or less true simply because you find it an 'unhappy' message. Truth isn't about what is appealing to your desires, truth is about what stands out from error!

all the best
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 09:29 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
the operative word here is sinning against the soul, the soul is eternal, and committing a sin is an estrangement from God and a breech in his covenant. As such indeed deserves eternal punishment for unlike worldly sins which can be expiated, a sin against the soul is ever lasting for God in creating us has bestowed upon us with that the gift of two lives.
Can you show me where the Qur'an states that the soul is immortal?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I wouldn't be using the 'Jewish''Muslim'' engagement' to make a point to a Muslim wouldn't you think?
and even if every Muslim were to go to hell which isn't actually the case, it wouldn't make it any more or less true simply because you find it an 'unhappy' message. Truth isn't about what is appealing to your desires, truth is about what stands out from error!

all the best
You say that it isn't actually the case that every Muslim goes to hell. Let me again quote the Sahih Bukhari hadith: "will not be touched by the Fire except that which will render Allah's oath fulfilled."
Reply

جوري
09-01-2010, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
You say that it isn't actually the case that every Muslim goes to hell. Let me again quote the Sahih Bukhari hadith: "will not be touched by the Fire except that which will render Allah's oath fulfilled."
again, a NonMuslim who has no knowledge of Arabic, the science of hadith and especially quotes a now hijacked so called Islamic site, shouldn't come teach a Muslim about their religion what do you think? unless you enjoy openly displaying your ignorance?

Reply

جوري
09-01-2010, 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Can you show me where the Qur'an states that the soul is immortal?

“On the day when thou wilt see the believers, men and women, their light shining forth before them and on their right hands, (and wilt hear it said unto them): Glad news for you this day: Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein ye are immortal. That is the supreme triumph.” (Al-Hadid:

one of many btw, but I need to go to work..I find it strange for someone who is quoting me a hadith from a Jewish site to come and ask me of the soul's mortality, resurrection and eternal life.. I mean simply pick up the Quran and read it sometime you can't miss it, browse to suret Al-kahf or even the suret Ad-Dukhan above which I have posted to see, that the death of this world is only but once and a way to eternity!

all the best
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
again, a NonMuslim who has no knowledge of Arabic, the science of hadith and especially quotes a now hijacked so called Islamic site, shouldn't come teach a Muslim about their religion what do you think? unless you enjoy openly displaying your ignorance?

Peace, The Vale's Lily.
I don't mind at all displaying ignorance if it means that I will learn something. Feel free to shoot me down in flames if I am in the wrong.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601 says: "Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.' ... Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."'

This clearly shows believers being rescued out of hell fire to enter paradise. I have even read commentary on Surah 19:71 that suggests that the fire may be cool and pleasant while Muslims are there. But the vast majority of Islamic authorities agree that everyone of humanity will spend some time in hell.
Reply

Insaanah
09-01-2010, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
"Allah's Oath" referred to here is that mentioned in Surah 19:71 which promises that everyone must enter hell for a time. Surah 19:72 then goes on to say that the righteous will be delivered out of hell but the wrongdoers would be left there.

Not a happy message.
Greetings Hiroshi,

Firstly, in this thread and in others, you have demonstrated your blind acceptance of anything being the truth that is written in the answering islam website, especially articles by the foul-mouthed Sam Shamoun, who is known for his f-word responses to Muslims.

Just changing a few words here and there so that it can't be recognised as a copy and paste makes no difference. Your attitude appears to be one of, "Ah, lets see how the Muslims respond to this now!" rather than one of a true seeker of knowledge.

If you want to play the answering islam and answering christianity game, frankly there isn't much point in your coming to this forum, because all you have to do is to go to answering christianity website, and find the answer to your point. If you have a genuine interest in Islam and for sincere interaction with Muslims then you are welcome. Only Allah knows innermost intentions, but I can only go by what I have seen you do in this thread and others, and which, when I have twice pointed the fact out to you, you have not denied.

However, I will take this opportunity to correct what you have obtained from the answering islam website that the Qur'an says that everyone must enter hell for a time. It does not. You can't rely on a blind copy and paste. The Arabic word dakhala for enter is not used in this verse (19:71)

Sahih International
And there is none of you except he will come to it. This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed.

Muhsin Khan
There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord; a Decree which must be accomplished.

Pickthall
There is not one of you but shall approach it. That is a fixed ordinance of thy Lord.

Yusuf Ali
Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

Nowhere does it say everyone will enter it, in fact the word enter isn't even used. To approach, to pass over, or to come to something, does not equate with entering.

All of will pass over hell fire, on a bridge over it; those who go to Paradise wll pass over it speedily and easily, and those who have done the deeds of the people of hell will fall into it and enter it.

Peace.
Reply

Insaanah
09-01-2010, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I don't mind at all displaying ignorance if it means that I will learn something. Feel free to shoot me down in flames if I am in the wrong.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601 says: "Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.' ... Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."'

This clearly shows believers being rescued out of hell fire to enter paradise. I have even read commentary on Surah 19:71 that suggests that the fire may be cool and pleasant while Muslims are there. But the vast majority of Islamic authorities agree that everyone of humanity will spend some time in hell.
I'm afraid they don't. This refers to those believers whose bad deeds outweighed their good deeds (but they still had faith), thus went into the fire first before going into paradise. All those whose good deeds outweigh their outweigh their bad deeds, and to whom Allah shows His Mercy, go straight to heaven. Nowehere does this hadeeth say everyone will go to hell.

Peace.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

I'm afraid they don't. This refers to those believers whose bad deeds outweighed their good deeds (but they still had faith), thus went into the fire first before going into paradise. All those whose good deeds outweigh their outweigh their bad deeds go straight to heaven. Nowehere does this hadeeth say everyone will go to hell.

Peace.
They don't? How about Ibn Kathir’s Commentary on that verse?

Surah 19:71 Not one of you but will pass through it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

Imam Ahmad narrated that Sulaiman Ibn Harb narrated that Khalid Ibn Sulaiman narrated that Kathir Ibn Ziad Al- Barsani narrated that Abu Sumaya said, "We differed about the meaning of ‘Passing through it’ (wari-duha). For some of us said that no believer will enter hell and others said all (people) shall enter it and then Allah will save those who have done righteousness. Then I met Jabir Ibn Abdallah and I informed him that we differed about the meaning of, ‘Pass through it,’ and he replied that: "Everyone shall enter it."
Reply

Insaanah
09-01-2010, 12:36 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Just changing a few words here and there so that it can't be recognised as a copy and paste makes no difference. Your attitude appears to be one of, "Ah, lets see how the Muslims respond to this now!" rather than one of a true seeker of knowledge.
Originally Posted by Insaanah
If you want to play the answering islam and answering christianity game, frankly there isn't much point in your coming to this forum, because all you have to do is to go to answering christianity website, and find the answer to your point.
Ok. You want to play the game.

Just google answering christianity +key words and you'll get the answer.

As your answers are all there, I won't be wasting any more of my precious Ramadan moments playing your game copying and pasting answers/refutations/rebuttals that you can easily find and read for yourself.

Peace.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

Greetings Hiroshi,

Firstly, in this thread and in others, you have demonstrated your blind acceptance of anything being the truth that is written in the answering islam website, especially articles by the foul-mouthed Sam Shamoun, who is known for his f-word responses to Muslims.

Just changing a few words here and there so that it can't be recognised as a copy and paste makes no difference. Your attitude appears to be one of, "Ah, lets see how the Muslims respond to this now!" rather than one of a true seeker of knowledge.

If you want to play the answering islam and answering christianity game, frankly there isn't much point in your coming to this forum, because all you have to do is to go to answering christianity website, and find the answer to your point. If you have a genuine interest in Islam and for sincere interaction with Muslims then you are welcome. Only Allah knows innermost intentions, but I can only go by what I have seen you do in this thread and others, and which, when I have twice pointed the fact out to you, you have not denied.
I have researched a great many things over the years and from many different sources. The availablity of Islamic information on the internet is not restricted to Sam Shamoun of "Answering Islam".

I have formed the opinion that many popular beliefs of Muslims today are quite different to those that existed in earlier times following the rise of Islam and the fundamental establishment of it's doctrinal tenets. I don't know why this should be. I am interested to know what others on Islamic Board think on this.

But mainly, I wanted to give Aadil77 some idea of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they might respond to him in a discussion. I am surprised, though, that you and The Vale's Lily reject the belief that all humanity enter hell as I thought that there were even direct quotes from Muhammed confirming this.

I am a little tired of you and others repeatedly questioning my motives.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-01-2010, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But mainly, I wanted to give Aadil77 some idea of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they might respond to him in a discussion. I am surprised, though, that you and The Vale's Lily reject the belief that all humanity enter hell as I thought that there were even direct quotes from Muhammed confirming this.
I have a question for you, Hiroshi, as a representative of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you see trinitarian Christians as merely wrong with regard to their beliefs regarding the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, or do you see those concepts as being so egregious in nature that you would reject that those who hold them should even call themselves Christian?
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I have a question for you, Hiroshi, as a representative of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you see trinitarian Christians as merely wrong with regard to their beliefs regarding the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, or do you see those concepts as being so egregious in nature that you would reject that those who hold them should even call themselves Christian?
Hi Grace Seeker.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the only true Christians doing God's work today and that doctrines like the trinity are part of a great apostacy and falling away from the truth. That really puts you and I in strong disagreement over what many consider are the basic doctrines of Christianity. But, of course, we also have a lot in common (I hope).
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Grace Seeker
09-01-2010, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
But, of course, we also have a lot in common (I hope).
Surely some things. But as you indicate our core beliefs are about as diameterically opposed to one another as one could get. I'm not insulted that you don't consider me to be a true Christian. And I suspect you're not surprised, and I hope not insulted, to know that the feeling is mutual.

When the comparative section is open, I think it would be interesting to see how it is that different groups on this form define what it means to be a Christian. I wonder, among those who don't identify themselves as Christian, whether your beliefs or mine are those that they perceive as representative of Christianity?
Reply

Rabi Mansur
09-01-2010, 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Surely some things. But as you indicate our core beliefs are about as diameterically opposed to one another as one could get. I'm not insulted that you don't consider me to be a true Christian. And I suspect you're not surprised, and I hope not insulted, to know that the feeling is mutual.

When the comparative section is open, I think it would be interesting to see how it is that different groups on this form define what it means to be a Christian. I wonder, among those who don't identify themselves as Christian, whether your beliefs or mine are those that they perceive as representative of Christianity?
Good point as I think most here see Christianity as one big conglomeration that worships a man/god and believes in the trinity. That of course is not ALWAYS the case. But the vast majority of Christians do subscribe to the trinity and that is what defines them as Christian. There are sects that have varying views on the trinity. For example, Mormons as you know, don't believe in it but have their own form of man/god worship that would be viewed by Muslims as just as egregious as mainstream Christian trinitarianism.
:wa:
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جوري
09-01-2010, 04:22 PM
Thanks sis Insanah..
at least it was good for a chuckle if nothing else..
he'd been holding that secret information and waiting for the moment to shock us with it ;D ;D ;D
I love the stuff they indoctrinate them with in their schools.. it is perfectly acceptable for them to believe what they say, what is beyond me is how they think they can come teach us Quran/Sunnah And Arabic with their own desired renditions!

:w:
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Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Surely some things. But as you indicate our core beliefs are about as diameterically opposed to one another as one could get. I'm not insulted that you don't consider me to be a true Christian. And I suspect you're not surprised, and I hope not insulted, to know that the feeling is mutual.

When the comparative section is open, I think it would be interesting to see how it is that different groups on this form define what it means to be a Christian. I wonder, among those who don't identify themselves as Christian, whether your beliefs or mine are those that they perceive as representative of Christianity?
No, of course I don't feel insulted and I'm glad that you don't either. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes with you on the comparative section once Ramadam is over.
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جوري
09-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I have researched a great many things over the years and from many different sources. The availablity of Islamic information on the internet is not restricted to Sam Shamoun of "Answering Islam".
Then why is what you bring saturated with ignorance that is dispensed with on the idiots websites?
I have formed the opinion that many popular beliefs of Muslims today are quite different to those that existed in earlier times following the rise of Islam and the fundamental establishment of it's doctrinal tenets. I don't know why this should be. I am interested to know what others on Islamic Board think on this.
That unfortunately hasn't reflected in your writing?
But mainly, I wanted to give Aadil77 some idea of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they might respond to him in a discussion. I am surprised, though, that you and The Vale's Lily reject the belief that all humanity enter hell as I thought that there were even direct quotes from Muhammed confirming this.
I believe she has shown you verses to otherwise .. yatabawa'a maqi3dho min aljannah wa yatabo'a maqi3dho min an'nar hardly translates to exclusive beliefs to me and sis insaannah. Everyone will indeed see their seats in both heaven and hell, including kaffirs, it doesn't mean that they are to enter one or the other!
I am a little tired of you and others repeatedly questioning my motives.
lol, what other purpose can there be when you are 'teaching' us our religion instead of trying to properly learn it?

all the best
Reply

جوري
09-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
No, of course I don't feel insulted and I'm glad that you don't either. I would certainly look forward to comparing notes with you on the comparative section once Ramadam is over.
It is called Ramadan oh learned one!

all the best
Reply

piXie
09-01-2010, 06:09 PM
Hello Hiroshi,

Originally Posted by Hiroshi
whatever wickedness they would have committed would be limited. It wouldn't be justice to chastise them forever for a limited period of sin.
If one is rewarded with Paradise forever, for a limited period of good deeds, then why is it injustice if one is punished with Hell forever, for a limited period of bad deeds?

If you find the notion of Paradise Just and accept it, then should you not also find the notion of Hell Just and accept that too? :ermm:

Having said this, God does not chastise us in Hell forever for a limited period of sins. No rather, He only puts us in Hell for a limited period of time according to the sins we have committed in life. Then He takes us out of Hell and puts us in Paradise (after we have been purified). Please hear the story of the last person who will be taken out of the Hell Fire here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEVZNM1e1FI

The only time God will chastise someone in Hell forever is when they commit the One Unforgiveable Ultimate sin. The Biggest Violation. The Biggest Untruth in the whole of this vast universe. The most Tremendous Lie which makes the earth shake and crumble with fear. The BIGGEST Blasphemy and most grievous crime against God

To say; The Lord is not One, and to attribute partners with Him. (A'udubillaah!)

God says “(they) impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him” [6:100]

Who is guilty of more wrong than he who foregth a lie against God” [6:93]

Glorified be He, and high exalted above (all) that they ascribe (unto Him)!” [6:100]

God has told us explicitly in the scriptures that he is One without partners, and He has warned us time and time again of the consequences of violating this message and most basic right of His.

He says “We sent a messenger to every nation saying Worship Allaah alone, and shun false deities"[16:60]

Hear Oh children of Israel! The Lord thy God is One Lord!

"Say He is God, the One and Only God, the, Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him!" [112:1-4]

God has warned us He will never forgive this one sin.

Indeed Allaah does not forgive associating partners with Him, and He forgives other than that if He wills” [4:48]

Before we speak of hell being unfair and unjust, let me ask you brother Hiroshi, which is an unfairness and an injustice,

For the Lord to send messengers to inform His slaves of His most basic right; the consequences of violating it, and thereafter punishing us if we do not take heed,

Or for His slaves, who eat and live of His bounty, to deny Him His most basic right, despite receiving His numerous warnings?

The Final Prophet peace be upon him said, “Allaahs right upon His worshippers is that they worship Him without associating anything with Him. And the worshippers right upon Allaah is that He does not punish anyone who does not associate anything with Him” [Two Sahihs]

They deny God His right, yet they demand theirs? Who is the one being unfair, God or us? Who is the one committing the crime, God or us? I mean, Who is He and who are We? Its just.. ASTOUNDING, the human being.

Yet, despite the lie they attribute to the Lord of the worlds, He has given them respite. Not only that, but He still looks after them and provides for them.. He still watches over them... He still gives them chance after chance, opportunity after opportunity, reminders after reminders to stop transgressing His right.

This is His patience.. Only His patience. This is His Mercy.. Only His mercy.

I seriously don't understand us. The human being. Why does he carry on denying God His right, and denying himself Paradise? I really really don't understand. Is it that hard to believe 'The Lord thy God is One?'

For Gods sake, let us come back to Tawheed, Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike !

The Final Prophet peace be upon him said: “Whoever testifies that there is no god but Allaah, alone without partners, and that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His worshipper and Messenger, and that Jesus (peace be upon him) is a worshipper of Allaah, His Messenger, His word delivered to Mary, and a soul from Him, and that Paradise is true, and that the fire is true, Allaah will admit Him to Paradise whatever his deeds may be" [al-Bukhari and Muslim]

In another narration: "Oh son of Adam! If you come to Me with mistakes filling the bags of the earth, yet you met Me without associating anything with Me, I would come to you with those bags full of forgievenss" [Tirmidhi]

Lets just read these narrations, lets just contemplate on them for a minute. Lets contemplate on Gods mercy, and how vast is His mercy. Let us contemplate on His patience, and how vast is His patience. Let us contemplate on His compassion, and how vast is His compassion. Let us contemplate on His forgiveness, and how vast is His forgiveness. Now let us contemplate upon His wrath for those who insist and keep on insisting on denying His most basic right, despite all the Lords favors, and then we will begin to understand why He is so vast in retribution.

And I swear by Allaah and His 99 names, He is JUSTIFIED

.

Reply

aadil77
09-01-2010, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
I have formed the opinion that many popular beliefs of Muslims today are quite different to those that existed in earlier times following the rise of Islam and the fundamental establishment of it's doctrinal tenets. I don't know why this should be. I am interested to know what others on Islamic Board think on this.
Never heard anyone say this before, can you give some examples?

But mainly, I wanted to give Aadil77 some idea of the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and how they might respond to him in a discussion. I am surprised, though, that you and The Vale's Lily reject the belief that all humanity enter hell as I thought that there were even direct quotes from Muhammed confirming this.
I am actually suprised that you hold this belief in regards to muslims, everything in our faith makes sense, it would not make sense for everyone to be punished in hell especially if their sins are forgiven or they died in a state of innocence (children)

I think the members above have answered this misconeption of yours
Reply

Hiroshi
09-01-2010, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah



Ok. You want to play the game.

Just google answering christianity +key words and you'll get the answer.

As your answers are all there, I won't be wasting any more of my precious Ramadan moments playing your game copying and pasting answers/refutations/rebuttals that you can easily find and read for yourself.

Peace.
Hey, Insaanah. You did me an injustice here. I checked the answers and responses and found out that a really thorny, bitter and nasty controversy developed between the two parties over these issues. But it is a controversy that I would never want to bring up in the middle of Ramadam, I swear. I just didn't realize what was involved.

I now see what was bothering you and why you wanted to shut me up quickly. My apologies.
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جوري
09-01-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Hiroshi
Hey, Insaanah. You did me an injustice here. I checked the answers and responses and found out that a really thorny, bitter and nasty controversy developed between the two parties over these issues. But it is a controversy that I would never want to bring up in the middle of Ramadam, I swear. I just didn't realize what was involved.

I now see what was bothering you and why you wanted to shut me up quickly. My apologies.
How did Insanaah do you a great injustice here? Not only are you incredibly ignorant in such a fashion that is visible to the naked eyes-- you have no desire to correct your mistakes when evidenced to the contrary.
Just a quick and simple example is your incessant use of the word 'Ramadam' where you were corrected previously and yet chose to repeat the same error twice! This is only reflected in all you write!
How can you possibly blame anyone else for your own folly and refractory ignorance? We need you to shut up for a simple reason, we like to cultivate our fast and not waste it on the ignorant disseminating ridiculous and faulty information during the holy month, surely my ten year old nephew can refute you if that is at all worth his time, question is why lose ones fast arguing trivialities with clods?

all the best
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Hiroshi
09-02-2010, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Never heard anyone say this before, can you give some examples?

Okay. Modern day Muslims believe that the flood of Noah's day was a local one only affecting a limited area of the earth's surface. I read a book by Dr. Maurice Bucaille that says this. But I am sure that Muslims in the past believed that the flood was global, covering the entire earth.


Originally Posted by aadil77


I am actually suprised that you hold this belief in regards to muslims, everything in our faith makes sense, it would not make sense for everyone to be punished in hell especially if their sins are forgiven or they died in a state of innocence (children)

I think the members above have answered this misconeption of yours
Maybe we can discuss it later.
Reply

Hiroshi
09-02-2010, 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Just a quick and simple example is your incessant use of the word 'Ramadam' where you were corrected previously and yet chose to repeat the same error twice! This is only reflected in all you write!

...

all the best
Oh yes. Ramadan. Apologies again.
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Hiroshi
09-02-2010, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by piXie
Hello Hiroshi,



If one is rewarded with Paradise forever, for a limited period of good deeds, then why is it injustice if one is punished with Hell forever, for a limited period of bad deeds?

If you find the notion of Paradise Just and accept it, then should you not also find the notion of Hell Just and accept that too? :ermm:
I don't believe that we earn everlasting life in Paradise. We are undeserving. But it is a loving gift from God, as you said: a reward.
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