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LauraS
09-14-2010, 08:16 PM
Well to stop the other thread "rip" from going too far off topic there is a new discussion about homosexuality here. So people's views?

All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality. I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?

Also I would love to hear opinions of all different religions.
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Dan-fish
09-14-2010, 08:21 PM
I know this is quite rude. but i just generally feel a bit uncomfortable around gay people.
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tango92
09-14-2010, 08:30 PM
even if your a darwinistic atheist, homos do the exact opposite of what survival of the fittest dictates. at least social acceptance of homosexuality will protect deserving sisters from marrying men with such tendencies

personally i think most homos are just unaware they are straight, you can rip me apart for that statement but thats just what i think.
Reply

Woodrow
09-14-2010, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Well to stop the other thread "rip" from going too far off topic there is a new discussion about homosexuality here. So people's views?

All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality. I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?

Also I would love to hear opinions of all different religions.
Many years ago I had 2 homosexual foster teenage sons living with us. Both took different paths. One chose the life of living a homosexual life style. the other sought ways to channal his desires into constructive endeavors. The one died at a young age in the home of his wusband or hife. The other never did marry but he avoided the gay life style. It has been over 20 years since I last saw him, but from I hear he is living a very good life and upholds very strong moral standards. I can not say if he is happy or sad, but it does seem he is avoiding the temptation to enter into any homosexual relationship.

I have found several cause for homosexuality and do agree that there is a genetic predisposistion for some people. However, this is a nature/nurture issue. It takes both the predisposition and the desire to cause a person to live a homosexual life style. I will agree it is difficult, but all of us are the ones ultimately responsible for the sexual life style we live.
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distressed
09-14-2010, 08:37 PM
Islam forbids it, but personally i dont have a problem with gay people, i mean its not like anyone would stop being gay, on the basis of religion ? I know a couple and there nice people, these are non muslim. However i also live in a pakistani community and to be honest most of the older guys who are married with kids/grandkids, in their 40s+ now seem to be batting for the other side, i feel sorry for their wives, cos stuff like this always ends up coming out. Also an old school, friend of mine, used to know a muslim guy who was quite openly gay and apparently his parents were ok with it ? so maybe people are getting more tolerant ova it ? esp muslims. A couple of years back i remember a youn lad in the community getin married to his partner. his parents had to be ok with it.
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LauraS
09-14-2010, 08:40 PM
People may feel uncomfortable with the idea, I find lesbianism harder to feel comfortable with than men who are gay. I think that's because I'm a woman and men probably feel the same way vice versa.

Woodrow- I agree there are people who just say "no" and ignore their feelings. It would be hard for a gay person to do that if they have no particular religious convictions and just want to be happy.
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MEG
09-14-2010, 08:54 PM
I agree that it can't be helped. Gay men make great friends as they tend to be very sociable, but I don't approve of gay marriage/relationships (it defies pro-creation and unity between husband/wife). My gay step brother said that there's some religious club for chaste gay men :p
Reply

Alpha Dude
09-14-2010, 08:55 PM
It seems that it's mostly women who like to campaign for gay rights etc. I think they have this urge to find a 'caring, compassionate male friend' who won't betray them.

These women usually wouldn't mind undressing in front of gays either. :hmm:
Reply

czgibson
09-14-2010, 09:00 PM
Greetings,

I have no objection to homosexual people. I've known a few gay people, and have found them to be rather ordinary in the way that most of us are; one exception was a person at school who is probably one of the top five most hilarious people I've ever met. Some of my favourite artists, musicians and writers are or were gay.

I can't really comment on "the gay lifestyle" in the way that some others have, because there are many different behaviour patterns for people who are gay, just as there are for straight people. Some people are sexually profligate and others are celibate, and you'll find people of all persuasions at all points in between. Similarly, sometimes it is screamingly obvious that a person is gay, but sometimes there is no way of telling from a person's public behaviour.

The fact that someone is gay doesn't really tell you anything about whether they are a good person or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
even if your a darwinistic atheist, homos do the exact opposite of what survival of the fittest dictates.
I am a Darwinistic atheist and I don't see the problem here. There are lots of activities that don't lead to reproduction of the species. Also, call me rash, but I don't see our species dying out any time soon as a result of too few people having heterosexual intercourse.

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
09-14-2010, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
People may feel uncomfortable with the idea, I find lesbianism harder to feel comfortable with than men who are gay. I think that's because I'm a woman and men probably feel the same way vice versa.

Woodrow- I agree there are people who just say "no" and ignore their feelings. It would be hard for a gay person to do that if they have no particular religious convictions and just want to be happy.
Yes it would be very difficult if not impossible for a gay person to just say "NO" if they had no religious convictions. I personally feel it is only the mercy of Allaah(swt) and praying for strength that would enable a gay person to say "NO" to the gay life style.
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marwen
09-14-2010, 09:19 PM
Sorry to give the following shocking example, but it's really how I see things here :

You all know know how the digestive system works : we enter food in our mouth, then it's digested in the stomach, and finally wastes are expelled trough the bottom orifice.
Can you imagine doing the the same digestive process but, in the opposite way i.e : you enter food from your bottom and then you take out excrements through your mouth +o( : Yes some people can live with that and may also like to do it but, it's not sane, it's not normal, and it makes you look bad in front of normal people.

That's how I see homosexuality. I ask God to guide these people.
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aadil77
09-14-2010, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by distressed
Islam forbids it, but personally i dont have a problem with gay people, i mean its not like anyone would stop being gay, on the basis of religion ? I know a couple and there nice people, these are non muslim. However i also live in a pakistani community and to be honest most of the older guys who are married with kids/grandkids, in their 40s+ now seem to be batting for the other side, i feel sorry for their wives, cos stuff like this always ends up coming out. Also an old school, friend of mine, used to know a muslim guy who was quite openly gay and apparently his parents were ok with it ? so maybe people are getting more tolerant ova it ? esp muslims. A couple of years back i remember a youn lad in the community getin married to his partner. his parents had to be ok with it.
I don't know what kind of muslim community you live in, where practicing sodomy is seen as acceptable, paki communities have lost the plost - majority of them are very far from islam, the nutcase paki mullahs who initiate the homo marriages have commited kufr.... (im paki btw)

and maybe you aren't aware that tolerating homo's is one thing but accepting homosexuality as 'ok' or permissable will make you a kaffir
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-14-2010, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Well to stop the other thread "rip" from going too far off topic there is a new discussion about homosexuality here. So people's views?

All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality. I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?

Also I would love to hear opinions of all different religions.
As i mentioned in the other thread, its wrong and not something that is normal. Nope i dont think ive ever met anyone whos gay or whatever, and i really would be terrified to ever meet anyone like that. The thought is just shocking.

Actually it can be helped by controlling ones desires, and as have many posters mentioned its not normal, thats true, its not normal because God didnt create us that way, thats why Allaah tells us he created us in pairs i.e. male and female.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-14-2010, 10:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by distressed
Islam forbids it, but personally i dont have a problem with gay people, i mean its not like anyone would stop being gay, on the basis of religion ? I know a couple and there nice people, these are non muslim. However i also live in a pakistani community and to be honest most of the older guys who are married with kids/grandkids, in their 40s+ now seem to be batting for the other side, i feel sorry for their wives, cos stuff like this always ends up coming out. Also an old school, friend of mine, used to know a muslim guy who was quite openly gay and apparently his parents were ok with it ? so maybe people are getting more tolerant ova it ? esp muslims. A couple of years back i remember a youn lad in the community getin married to his partner. his parents had to be ok with it.
As a muslim it should concern all, im sure you`ve read the story of LUTT as? InshaAllaah, if you read it, those people commited sin a huge sin, they were punished for commiting acts that werent humane. Being nice and not nice doesnt justify whether its correct to be one. And May Allaah guide those men you mentioned that are married,its ruining there future and their wife and kids future and life alltogether. SubhaanAllaah
Reply

MartyrX
09-14-2010, 10:13 PM
I have several friends both male and female that are either gay or bisexual. Personally I don't have an issue with it. I can not place judgement on these people either. I have my own sins to contend with.
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tango92
09-14-2010, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson

I am a Darwinistic atheist and I don't see the problem here. There are lots of activities that don't lead to reproduction of the species. Also, call me rash, but I don't see our species dying out any time soon as a result of too few people having heterosexual intercourse.

Peace
i never said the second half of ur statement. most cases when sexual intercourse isnt taking place is due to illness or some psychological problems, like impotence, depression.
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cat eyes
09-14-2010, 10:28 PM
yeah i know a gay, he use to babysit me when i was little, he was normal guy dating girls etc and he loved kids but as he grew older he got involved with some junkies and they turned him a bit gay to be honest,

i believe they influenced him in to it, now he dresses like a woman even, hes not the same person he was, hes totally changed. i don't believe this is something a person is born with, its the influence of the perverted society we live in to indulge in lesbianism etc.

i had a lesbian manager too at work and she was very open about it. i don't judge that guy whom i now know is gay, he still says hello to me when he sees me but its hard for me to even look at him with that belly top he wears and pink trousers... whilst my sister was walking with me, she did laugh pretty hard and he looked upset, i think the poor guy is lost i think, i think most of them are because of this effed up society

Yes they are humans and yes they are nice but that does not mean im going to agree with there lifestyle and never will.
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czgibson
09-14-2010, 10:48 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
i never said the second half of ur statement.
That's a response to a direct implication of your words. Otherwise what point were you actually making?

As I seem to have misunderstood, could you perhaps explain why you think homosexuality is a problem in the light of Darwinian natural selection?

Peace
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aadil77
09-14-2010, 10:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cat eyes
i think the poor guy is lost i think, i think most of them are because of this effed up society

Yes they are humans and yes they are nice but that does not mean im going to agree with there lifestyle and never will.
key point there, when people are lost/depressed they start experimenting with different things to get some happiness, some try different drugs others become gay and try it with men or with children...

disgustin world this is
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جوري
09-14-2010, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



That's a response to a direct implication of your words. Otherwise what point were you actually making?

As I seem to have misunderstood, could you perhaps explain why you think homosexuality is a problem in the light of Darwinian natural selection?

Peace
'nature' doesn't allow for futile cycles especially in complex organisms. If we were strict naturalists homosexuality would be the end of the line, there would be no further propagation of the specie, there would be no 'survival of the fittest' there would simply be an end point (period)-- the whole point would indeed be about reproduction (what other point can there be) when the 'meta needs' are meta physical?

all the best

p.s don't we have a zillion homosexuality thread.. shouldn't people simply do a basic search instead of this crap again?

:w:
Reply

Salahudeen
09-14-2010, 11:23 PM
I am just wondering if being gay has a genetic cause then wouldn't it eventually die out the gene pool since gays don't reproduce?

I am just wondering, paedofiles also say they can not help the way they are this is the way they were born with a fetish for children so should we make this acceptable to? How is this different from being gay? they are both sexually devient. How come we accept 1 and make the other unacceptable, I mean after all a paedofile can not help how he is, this is the way he was born with a desire for children.

What about people who have sex with animals are they born like this too? lol should we accept this pratice also since people can't help how they were born?
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czgibson
09-14-2010, 11:30 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
'nature' doesn't allow for futile cycles especially in complex organisms. If we were strict naturalists homosexuality would be the end of the line, there would be no further propagation of the specie, there would be no 'survival of the fittest' there would simply be an end point (period)-- the whole point would indeed be about reproduction (what other point can there be) when the 'meta needs' are meta physical?

all the best

p.s don't we have a zillion homosexuality thread.. shouldn't people simply do a basic search instead of this crap again?

:w:
I can't see what you're getting at. If everyone exclusively practised homosexual sex, then I expect what you say would be true. Seeing as they don't, where is the problem?

Peace
Reply

جوري
09-14-2010, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't see what you're getting at. If everyone exclusively practised homosexual sex, then I expect what you say would be true. Seeing as they don't, where is the problem?

Peace
Homosexuality would have been long extinct as dictated by the laws of 'natural selection' it is so simple that I believe you are deliberately missing it.

all the best
Reply

tango92
09-14-2010, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



That's a response to a direct implication of your words. Otherwise what point were you actually making?

As I seem to have misunderstood, could you perhaps explain why you think homosexuality is a problem in the light of Darwinian natural selection?

Peace
my point was to show homosexuality is deviance.
Reply

cat eyes
09-15-2010, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can't see what you're getting at. If everyone exclusively practised homosexual sex, then I expect what you say would be true. Seeing as they don't, where is the problem?

Peace
the point is its not natural ;D

darwin would find no logic in gays even ;D

oh and by the way if they do not have sex whats the point in being gay then? why does it exist.

why do they put label on themselves if majority of them do not sleep around which is kinda rubbish to me, they all sleep around
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czgibson
09-15-2010, 12:28 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
I am just wondering if being gay has a genetic cause then wouldn't it eventually die out the gene pool since gays don't reproduce?
Does anyone claim that the cause of homosexuality is exclusively genetic?

I am just wondering, paedofiles also say they can not help the way they are this is the way they were born with a fetish for children so should we make this acceptable to? How is this different from being gay? they are both sexually devient. How come we accept 1 and make the other unacceptable, I mean after all a paedofile can not help how he is, this is the way he was born with a desire for children.

What about people who have sex with animals are they born like this too? lol should we accept this pratice also since people can't help how they were born?
In these two cases, either the child or the animal is not considered by most people to be able to give informed consent to sexual relations, therefore such action is seen as highly unethical.

Regarding the last three posts addressed to me, I am not sure I can find suitable words to respond.

Peace
Reply

جوري
09-15-2010, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


In these two cases, either the child or the animal is not considered by most people to be able to give informed consent to sexual relations, therefore such action is seen as highly unethical.

Regarding the last three posts addressed to me, I am not sure I can find suitable words to respond.

Peace
'not considered' is the operative word here, we have certainly seen 13 year olds consenting to sex and lying about their age to make pornographic videos, not to mention having children out of wedlock, we have BCP passed to children as young as 11 in Midwestern states, emancipated while pregnant and then considered children after giving birth like in Chicago!
so simply because someone assumed that there were no consent doesn't make homosexuality more glorious and less aberrant!

They are all equally abhorrent if one merely tightens that confidence interval!


I expected you to not have a response otherwise, it would require a bit of science and that can be challenging when trying to reconcile with personal beliefs as I understand!
all the best
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DavidK565
09-15-2010, 01:46 AM
I just wanted to mention something quick regarding the posts about Homosexuality and Darwinism.

Human beings are (for the most part) a higher-thinking species, in comparison to all of the other animals on the planet. Our knowledge has permitted us to spend more of our time on things other than survival. So as strange as it may sound, Drawinian principles regarding propagation of the species and survival don't really apply to Humans.

The idea behind this notion is that animals do what is best for their survival. "Survival of the fittest" means that when it comes time to propagate the species, one would pick the best physical specimen, or one who is resistant to a disease spreading through the group, or whatever.

Humans however have the ability to think about things in a different manner. We marry and have children with people based on who makes more money, one's religion, pre-arranged marriages, love, etc. None of those things are supported by the natural evolutionary process.

Just look at modern medicine. It basically keeps alive people who otherwise would have been long gone, and never get the chance to have children. That is not "natural" either.

Based on that, homosexuality is not a surprise. And while the root cause has yet to be determined, what we do know is that its not genetically inherited, as it WOULD be eliminated from the gene pool, as someone else here had mentioned.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by distressed
Islam forbids it, but personally i dont have a problem with gay people, i mean its not like anyone would stop being gay, on the basis of religion ?
You are completely wrong.
Through my work (I work for an organization that funds many social causes), I got acquainted with a support network in Indonesia whose thousands of members are those with SSA - same sex attraction (they refuse to call themselves gay).
They are all muslims, males and females, and they are aware that they have this SSA, but they are fighting it, and they even call themselves muhajeerin (people who do the hijrah - for the sake of Allah).
Some of them never had SSE (same sex experience), while some others have.
But they all have the same goal: to please Allah SWT and to fight their unnatural urges/nafs and to complete their deen.
Many have successfully got married with children and live a (married, straight) happy life.
They realize that their SSA is just a test from Allah SWT and if they are successful to overcame it, they will be rewarded immensely Insya Allah.
I heard there are also similar organizations exist internationally in many other countries.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 06:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality.
Interesting to note that years ago, before all these so called "sexual liberation", many people who had homosexual tendency held themselves back and got married and lived straight life (and I believe many millions more are still able to do it, instead succumbing to their forbidden desires). So there goes your theory that it can't be helped.
Many people who have tendency to steal do not become thieves.
Many people who have tendency to be violent do not become murderers.
Many peole who have very strong tendency to have sex do not become rapists.
etc.
etc.


I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?
who has said that gay people cannot be lovely?
Many sickos are also amazingly lovely people. You read about a guy who imprisoned his own daughter for many years in the dungeon and raped her repeatedly was a normal lovely guy that not his own wife nor his neighbors suspected of being evil. Many paedophile priests who raped young boys are charming, lovely and respected. Hell, I am sure that even Hitler was lovely to his friends.
So what are you trying to prove here?
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distressed
09-15-2010, 07:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
I don't know what kind of muslim community you live in, where practicing sodomy is seen as acceptable, paki communities have lost the plost - majority of them are very far from islam, the nutcase paki mullahs who initiate the homo marriages have commited kufr.... (im paki btw)

and maybe you aren't aware that tolerating homo's is one thing but accepting homosexuality as 'ok' or permissable will make you a kaffir

Thats cos most yongsters grow up without deen and do what they like, living in cultural society, and 4get their religion and eventually adopt the western way of living well obviosly there gona be far from islam. theres only one guy that i know of, from what i remember i dont think his family, knew anything, just wen he turned 18 he went to the registry office, married his bf and then told his family,..within few weeks they closed their business, and moved away from the local area. the other muslim guy was actually a mate of my ex, and he used to tell me about him all the time, apparently this guy was gay and proud and his parents were in2 their religion and were ok with it ?? I didnt know him, so cant comment, but he was from london.

Like i sed b4, i dont have a problem with them, but if a muslim decides to take that lifestyle, then he/she does it knowingly that there sinning. I never sed it was ok/permissable i sed islam forbade it.
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distressed
09-15-2010, 07:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

As a muslim it should concern all, im sure you`ve read the story of LUTT as? InshaAllaah, if you read it, those people commited sin a huge sin, they were punished for commiting acts that werent inhumane. Being nice and not nice doesnt justify whether its correct to be one. And May Allaah guide those men you mentioned that are married,its ruining there future and their wife and kids future and life alltogether. SubhaanAllaah
Sis, ive not read that story, so ive no idea. but where i live there are men like that, as muslims they shud know its wrong....but they still continue to do it. Some think they are being clever and no1 knows, but seriously people always get caught out, and its like there not even bothered. A couple of the wifes i think know, but what do they do ?? if they've bin married to that guy for so many years, they just let them continue, cos its better than the shame they hav to face to confront the man or make an issue of something that is haram. At then end of the day i cant stop people being gay, if they know its rong and continue to do it, then sometimes theres nothing any1 can do to stop them. as muslims I can make dua for people like that, but i cant stop them being gay.
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distressed
09-15-2010, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
What about people who have sex with animals are they born like this too? lol should we accept this pratice also since people can't help how they were born?
Ive heard of stories of men that do that too. nope there not born like that there just disgusting and perverted.
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distressed
09-15-2010, 07:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
You are completely wrong.
Through my work (I work for an organization that funds many social causes), I got acquainted with a support network in Indonesia whose thousands of members are those with SSA - same sex attraction (they refuse to call themselves gay).
They are all muslims, males and females, and they are aware that they have this SSA, but they are fighting it, and they even call themselves muhajeerin (people who do the hijrah - for the sake of Allah).
Some of them never had SSE (same sex experience), while some others have.
But they all have the same goal: to please Allah SWT and to fight their unnatural urges/nafs and to complete their deen.
Many have successfully got married with children and live a (married, straight) happy life.
They realize that their SSA is just a test from Allah SWT and if they are successful to overcame it, they will be rewarded immensely Insya Allah.
I heard there are also similar organizations exist internationally in many other countries.
ok, ive never heard of anything like that, so im unsure if theres sumfin like that in uk. the difference is these people WANT TO STOP, most dont + they have deen, deep down they know its wrong, they've willpower, most of all they fear allah, so they were willing to change, not everyone is like that.
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 09:56 AM
:sl:

Didn’t people of Lutt commit other sins too or was it just homosexuality?

This is a subject that non Muslims (in particular atheists) and Muslims would never agree upon. I see this discussion as pointless.

There is no concrete evidence to prove homosexuals were born to have same attraction to same sex. But I question why would some of them risk their lives just to be homosexual? If it is something they can switch off?

I would never underestimate their struggles (that is “gay” Muslims that have feelings for same sex). I always hope they can peace within themselves instead of turning to what Allah (swt) has forbidden.

Interesting to note that years ago, before all these so called "sexual liberation", many people who had homosexual tendency held themselves back and got married and lived straight life (and I believe many millions more are still able to do it, instead succumbing to their forbidden desires).

Many still had sex with same gender behind their spouse back...
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Asiyah3
09-15-2010, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:

Didn’t people of Lutt commit other sins too or was it just homosexuality?
:wa:
I wonder the intention behind this question. Hope you're aim isn't to belittle homosexuality or lesbianism.

There is no concrete evidence to prove homosexuals were born to have same attraction to same sex. But I question why would some of them risk their lives just to be homosexual? If it is something they can switch off?
Yeah, why would pedophiles and zoophiles risk their lives if it's something they can switch off?

Many still had sex with same gender behind their spouse back...
I'm sure you are aware that he wasn't referring to those.
Reply

Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 11:30 AM
**muslimah**:wa:
I wonder the intention behind this question. Hope you're aim isn't to belittle homosexuality or lesbianism.
Keep wondering. People use example of people of the lutt as an example why homosexuality is the worse sin on earth. But I think the people of the lutt also committed other sins? Like adultery, music? That is no way belittling the sin itself. Homosexuality is a major sin along with other sins people of lutt have committed.


Yeah, why would pedophiles and zoophiles risk their lives if it's something they can switch off?
Paedophiles and zoophiles hardly ever get a death sentence in most countries (including Muslim countries) in this world unless they killed the child unlike homosexuality even in the past. In fact paedophiles are acceptable in some countries under the term "marriage" or "slave, servant" whilst homosexuals get hanged. Hence why I think your question is irrelevant, as most paedophiles dont face death sentence (unless they killed a child) even in America. So my question remains why would homosexuals risk their lives in countries where they would definitely hanged?


I'm sure you are aware that he wasn't referring to those.
Well those he was referring to (if it in west) is pretty small.
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Asiyah3
09-15-2010, 11:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

In these two cases, either the child or the animal is not considered by most people to be able to give informed consent to sexual relations, therefore such action is seen as highly unethical.

Peace
Peace,
You must advocate incest in the same logic.
Reply

LauraS
09-15-2010, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar




who has said that gay people cannot be lovely?
Many sickos are also amazingly lovely people. You read about a guy who imprisoned his own daughter for many years in the dungeon and raped her repeatedly was a normal lovely guy that not his own wife nor his neighbors suspected of being evil. Many paedophile priests who raped young boys are charming, lovely and respected. Hell, I am sure that even Hitler was lovely to his friends.
So what are you trying to prove here?
I believe there's a big huge difference between someone secretly keeping their daughter locked away and raping her and someone happily and openly in a same sex partnership....so I'm actually not sure what you're trying to prove.
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Alpha Dude
09-15-2010, 11:47 AM
There is no concrete evidence to prove homosexuals were born to have same attraction to same sex. But I question why would some of them risk their lives just to be homosexual? If it is something they can switch off?
You could say that about any sin.. Why would any muslim do a wrong act (e.g. lie) and risk burning in hell when they can just as easily switch of their desire to this said act?

Anyway, homosexual acts and any form of sodomy is forbidden in Islam. There are people out there that struggle with it no doubt, may Allah make it easy for them, ameen.

I believe there's a big huge difference between someone secretly keeping their daughter locked away and raping her and someone happily and openly in a same sex partnership....so I'm actually not sure what you're trying to prove.
He's trying to say someone being 'lovely' does not mean it is ok to overlook their evil acts (as you tried to imply we should do when you questionned whether anybody has ever spoken to a gay).

Would you approve of a chronic liar given that he is lovely in every other way? Or a murderer for the same reason?

How about a necrophile? Or those that indulge in willing incest?

The point is that there is a flaw in your logic.
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 11:47 AM
:sl:

Before anyone jumps on me.

I don’t want people to think I accept homosexuality or think Islam should. I know Islam will never accept homosexuality until the end of time, period. This is why I think we would never agree with non Muslims on this issue and see it as pointless.

All I am saying is the struggles and feelings homosexual especially Muslims ones is greater than we may have anticipated. So maybe we should just recognise that it their life time struggle and test? And that they should sacrifice their feelings for sake of Allah (swt) instead putting them in same category as devils really. And that we should help these sisters and brothers to deal with their struggles?

I see it as useless and unhelpful to put them on same category as paedophiles and zoophiles (who happen to commit crimes against those who cannot consent or protect themselves). That is all.
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cat eyes
09-15-2010, 11:53 AM
hes trying to prove that criminals can be nice too.. the priest i know down the road is nice but he knew other priests were raping little boys and didnt do anything about it
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 11:55 AM
You could say that about any sin.. Why would any muslim do a wrong act (e.g. lie) and risk burning in hell when they can just as easily switch of their desire to this said act?

Anyway, homosexual acts and any form of sodomy is forbidden in Islam. There are people out there that struggle with it no doubt, may Allah make it easy for them, ameen.
Ameen

Exactly, I see them as human being with possibly life long struggle and we all have to sacrifice something that haram for sake of Allah. The act of homosexuality is something they have to sacrifice no matter how strong their feelings are. I just don’t undermine their struggle.
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Asiyah3
09-15-2010, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:

I see it as useless and unhelpful to put them on same category as paedophiles and zoophiles (who happen to commit crimes against those who cannot consent or protect themselves). That is all.
:wa:

When I placed pedophiles and zoophiles there with homosexuality, I was referring to sexual deviance and as said by the same token a paedophile cannot help the way he is, this is the way he was born.
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PouringRain
09-15-2010, 12:10 PM
I believe it is a choice.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 12:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106

Many still had sex with same gender behind their spouse back...
True, but I believe many more are able to control their unlawful urges and have faithful loving marriages.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Keep wondering. People use example of people of the lutt as an example why homosexuality is the worse sin on earth. But I think the people of the lutt also committed other sins? Like adultery, music? That is no way belittling the sin itself. Homosexuality is a major sin along with other sins people of lutt have committed.
They did other crimes, too. But what is told in the Qur'an was that it is their crimes of men wanting other men ( a crime that had never been done by any other nation prior to the the people of Lut as - it is there in the Qur'an). I dont have time to search for the related verses. But Ive read them many times.


Paedophiles and zoophiles hardly ever get a death sentence in most countries (including Muslim countries) in this world unless they killed the child unlike homosexuality even in the past. In fact paedophiles are acceptable in some countries under the term "marriage" or "slave, servant" whilst homosexuals get hanged. Hence why I think your question is irrelevant, as most paedophiles dont face death sentence (unless they killed a child) even in America. So my question remains why would homosexuals risk their lives in countries where they would definitely hanged?
Are we talking about the real shariah law, or are we talking about corrupt customary laws in some muslim majority countries?
Also, I'd like to know if those homosexuals who were hanged according to you did any other crime, such as rape and/or murder.




Well those he was referring to (if it in west) is pretty small.
I am talking about muslims, as pious and righteous muslims would love and fear Allah more than anything.
I don't care about any other people who obviously don't have anything as strong as Islam to stand on.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 12:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bedouin
He's trying to say someone being 'lovely' does not mean it is ok to overlook their evil acts (as you tried to imply we should do when you questionned whether anybody has ever spoken to a gay).

Would you approve of a chronic liar given that he is lovely in every other way? Or a murderer for the same reason?

How about a necrophile? Or those that indulge in willing incest?

The point is that there is a flaw in your logic.
This is exactly what I was trying to convey.
You are much more eloquent and effective with words than I.
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Salahudeen
09-15-2010, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Paedophiles and zoophiles hardly ever get a death sentence in most countries (including Muslim countries) in this world unless they killed the child unlike homosexuality even in the past. In fact paedophiles are acceptable in some countries under the term "marriage" or "slave, servant" whilst homosexuals get hanged. Hence why I think your question is irrelevant, as most paedophiles dont face death sentence (unless they killed a child) even in America. So my question remains why would homosexuals risk their lives in countries where they would definitely hanged?
The punishment is not the point here, the point is anyone can argue that they can't help their sexual preference, just like a gay person says
"I can't help how I am I like men this is how God made me there's nothing wrong with it"
a paedo can say also
"I can't help how I am I like children this is the way god made me what's wrong with it it's natural to have this desire for children this is my sexual preferance, I don't get turned on by women or men, little children only turn me on"
One is classed as a sickness the other isn't when infact both are devient.
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Ramadhan
09-15-2010, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:

Before anyone jumps on me.

I don’t want people to think I accept homosexuality or think Islam should. I know Islam will never accept homosexuality until the end of time, period. This is why I think we would never agree with non Muslims on this issue and see it as pointless.
I agree with you. Although it baffles me that christians and jews think that homosexual acts does not break God's command when their scriptures clearly told story about God's wrath for such people and His severe punishments for those people.

All I am saying is the struggles and feelings homosexual especially Muslims ones is greater than we may have anticipated. So maybe we should just recognise that it their life time struggle and test? And that they should sacrifice their feelings for sake of Allah (swt) instead putting them in same category as devils really. And that we should help these sisters and brothers to deal with their struggles?
Sister, we have no problem with those who struggle to obey God's commands and avoid doing sins and in fact we should help them, BUT... there are people who call themselves "gay muslims" (what an oxymoron) and "proud to be who they are" who does not care about what's haram and what's halal even though they have the knowledge and even make their sins public. now how do you suppose we deal with such people?
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 02:40 PM
[=naidamar;1367296]They did other crimes, too. But what is told in the Qur'an was that it is their crimes of men wanting other men ( a crime that had never been done by any other nation prior to the the people of Lut as - it is there in the Qur'an). I dont have time to search for the related verses. But Ive read them many times.
[/QUOTE]

oh Okay it makes sense now.



Are we talking about the real shariah law, or are we talking about corrupt customary laws in some muslim majority countries?
Also, I'd like to know if those homosexuals who were hanged according to you did any other crime, such as rape and/or murder.
There isn't any country in this world that has proper shariah law. And it is not necessarily Muslim countries either. Many African countries prosecute and do hang them and they still do it. I suppose you are talking about the two Iranian boys? Allah (swt) knows if they were even homosexuals or rapists.




I am talking about muslims, as pious and righteous muslims would love and fear Allah more than anything.
I don't care about any other people who obviously don't have anything as strong as Islam to stand on.
okay, sorry.
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 02:45 PM
I agree with you. Although it baffles me that christians and jews think that homosexual acts does not break God's command when their scriptures clearly told story about God's wrath for such people and His severe punishments for those people.
Yeah it baffles me too.


Sister, we have no problem with those who struggle to obey God's commands and avoid doing sins and in fact we should help them, BUT... there are people who call themselves "gay muslims" (what an oxymoron) and "proud to be who they are" who does not care about what's haram and what's halal even though they have the knowledge and even make their sins public. now how do you suppose we deal with such people?
I dont know. Provide evidence using scriptures. I am hoping they are few of them like that tbh.
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Rhubarb Tart
09-15-2010, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
:wa:

When I placed pedophiles and zoophiles there with homosexuality, I was referring to sexual deviance and as said by the same token a paedophile cannot help the way he is, this is the way he was born.
:sl:

Okay sister. That was not in reference to you btw. I was talking about in general.
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DavidK565
09-15-2010, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I agree with you. Although it baffles me that christians and jews think that homosexual acts does not break God's command when their scriptures clearly told story about God's wrath for such people and His severe punishments for those people.

Jews and Christians who take a more secular approach to life generally don't take issue with homosexuality (though most Christians still are against the idea of gay marriage). Religious people, such as Orthodox Jews or Christians who take the bible as the literal, word-for-word truth, consider homosexuality to be "an abomination"... so, they're against it too.
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aadil77
09-15-2010, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
BUT... there are people who call themselves "gay muslims" (what an oxymoron) and "proud to be who they are" who does not care about what's haram and what's halal even though they have the knowledge and even make their sins public. now how do you suppose we deal with such people?
they aren't muslims to begin as they reject it as being haram
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Tyrion
09-16-2010, 06:15 AM
Hasn't this topic been covered enough? I'm sure a simple search through the forum (or google) would suffice for anyone who's interested...
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Predator
09-16-2010, 06:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I agree with you. Although it baffles me that christians and jews think that homosexual acts does not break God's command when their scriptures clearly told story about God's wrath for such people and His severe punishments for those people.
Christian Teli-EvangelistJimmy Swaggart writes in his book "Homosexuality' --- "AMERICA !!! , God will Judge you . If he does not judge you , then he would need to apologize for what he did to Sodom and Gomorah 4000 years ago "
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Woodrow
09-16-2010, 03:04 PM
I think in the Western World we are seeing a pendulum swing regarding attitudes towards homosexuality. In the recent past there was an extreme opposite attitude. Homosexuals were blatantly murdered with no fear of repercussions from the police. When I was a young boy it was common practice for gangbangers to rob Homosexuals knowing that they would not get reported and the gay person would get no support from the police, as the attitude was if the person was gay, they deserved what they got. I think a feeling of communal guilt for the injustices done to them has resulted in a swing to the opposite extreme. It has only been in the past 30 years that homosexuals have gained any protection in the USA. I do agree the pendulum has swung to far in the acceptance of homosexuality. Inshallah, perhaps over time the pendulum will stop at a sensible place.
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Mikayeel
09-16-2010, 03:52 PM
My opinion is that if you are in fact born gay you dont practise it. Don't go against natures flow, surpress your urges, and marry women like the Lord almighty wanted us to.
Just like when some people claim they are born to kill, that doesnt give them right to go out and freely kill others just because they cant control their desires.
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DavidK565
09-16-2010, 04:08 PM
If God knows what's in your heart, can a gay person be punished for simply BEING gay and suppressing it, or must they follow through with the actions that go along with homosexuality?
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Alpha Dude
09-16-2010, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
If God knows what's in your heart, can a gay person be punished for simply BEING gay and suppressing it, or must they follow through with the actions that go along with homosexuality?
God would not punish a man who strives/struggles to refrain from sin, whatever that sin may be. If a person does end up doing a forbidden act, then a sin is counted in his scale of deeds (unless this person repents).

However, you should note that there is no such thing as 'being gay' according to Islam. A person is not thought of as a gay person vs a straight person.

The issue is considered in the light of sin vs. non-sin. A person is either thinking of or doing a gay act or he isn't. The fact that a person has an inclination to do an evil gay act, does not make him a 'gay entity'.

Like, if a person is addicted to gossiping, he wouldn't in his mind define himself as a gossiper. There is no need. He should just see gosipping as a sin to avoid. Likewise with homosexual acts.
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Ramadhan
09-16-2010, 04:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
If God knows what's in your heart, can a gay person be punished for simply BEING gay and suppressing it, or must they follow through with the actions that go along with homosexuality?
In Islam, big sins and major haraam things are very clearly spelled out and defined, and that includes zina and homosexual acts/desires.

Hence, in Islam it is encouraged to get marry as long as one can afford to, one of the purposes is to protect themselves from committing unlawful sexual acts.

Do you ever wonder why only in recent years (maybe the past 30 years) it seems the number of homosexuals increased exponentially, coincided with the general moral degradation of society and the decline of religious values in many societies?

I had a good friend in college who later confessed that he'd had some same sex attraction but he believed it was a test from Allah. He was very righteous (he was even quite active in jamaat tabligh for quite some time). He decided to get married early (right after college), and he has since lived happy married life with two children.

You see that through Islam Allah provides solutions to our problems and conditions.
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IslamicRevival
09-16-2010, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
If God knows what's in your heart, can a gay person be punished for simply BEING gay and suppressing it, or must they follow through with the actions that go along with homosexuality?
No one is born gay, We are the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Adam (May Allah Forgive Me)

God gave us free will..two paths, the right...and the wrong one. Homosexuality is the wrong path to take.

INTENTION in Islam is important, It is what will lead us to Paradise God Willing.

If we sincerely intend to do something good and we failed to go through with it, It still counts as a good deed. If we intend to do something good and we follow thorough with it, Allah will reward us as much as he likes. If we intend to do something bad and go ahead with it, it is recorded as a sin, however, if we intend to do something sinful and do not go through with it, it is recorded as one good deed

See how Merciful Allah, The most high is? INTENTION is so important and it is the key to unlock the door to Paradise!
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ghost
09-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Islam and homosexuality

Let's look at the people of Lut (as), who were practising homosexuality in fact, were the first to do such a thing:
We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? [7-80]

"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." [7-81]
They were then all destroyed.
And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [7-82]

But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind. [7-83]

And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! [7-84]

The Prophet Lut (as) even offered them his daughters (to marry):
When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: "This is a distressful day." [11-77]

And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear God, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?" [11-78]

They said: "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!" [11-79]
They were then all destroyed.
He said: "Would that I had power to suppress you or that I could betake myself to some powerful support." [11-80]

(The Messengers) said: "O Lut! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?" [11-81]

When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,- [11-82]

Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! [11-83]

The next set of verses explain in more detail what transpired in the above set of verses, we find out that it wasn't just Lut (as) who was there, but a number of messengers including Abraham (as):
Abraham said: "What then is the business on which ye (have come), O ye messengers (of God)?" [15-57]

They said: "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin, [15-58]

"Excepting the adherents of Lut: them we are certainly (charged) to save (from harm),- All - [15-59]

"Except his wife, who, We have ascertained, will be among those who will lag behind." [15-60]

At length when the messengers arrived among the adherents of Lut, [15-61]

He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk." [15-62]

They said: "Yea, we have come to thee to accomplish that of which they doubt. [15-63]

"We have brought to thee that which is inevitably due, and assuredly we tell the truth. [15-64]

"Then travel by night with thy household, when a portion of the night (yet remains), and do thou bring up the rear: let no one amongst you look back, but pass on whither ye are ordered." [15-65]

And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning. [15-66]
The people of Lut (as) were all too happy to see these men, but for the wrong reasons:
The inhabitants of the city came in (mad) joy (at news of the young men). [15-67]

Lut said: "These are my guests: disgrace me not: [15-68]

"But fear God, and shame me not." [15-69]

They said: "Did we not forbid thee (to speak) for all and sundry?" [15-70]

He said: "There are my daughters (to marry), if ye must act (so)." [15-71]

Verily, by thy life (O Prophet), in their wild intoxication, they wander in distraction, to and fro. [15-72]
They were then all destroyed.
But the (mighty) Blast overtook them before morning, [15-73]

And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay. [15-74]

Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand. [15-75]

And the (cities were) right on the high-road. [15-76]

Behold! in this is a sign for those who believed. [15-77]
A couple of retelling of Lut's (as) people which is mentioned in later chapters of the Quran. I won't spoil the ending for you but yes, they were then all destroyed.
So also was Lut among those sent (by Us). [37-133]

Behold, We delivered him and his adherents, all [37-134]

Except an old woman who was among those who lagged behind: [37-135]

Then We destroyed the rest. [37-136]

Verily, ye pass by their (sites), by day- [37-137]

And by night: will ye not understand? [37-138]
(Abraham) said: "And what, O ye Messengers, is your errand (now)?" [51-31]

They said, "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin;- [51-32]

"To bring on, on them, (a shower of) stones of clay (brimstone), [51-33]

"Marked as from thy Lord for those who trespass beyond bounds." [51-34]

Then We evacuated those of the Believers who were there, [51-35]

But We found not there any just (Muslim) persons except in one house: [51-36]

And We left there a Sign for such as fear the Grievous Penalty. [51-37]
The people of Lut rejected (his) warning. [54-33]

We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,- [54-34]

As a Grace from Us: thus do We reward those who give thanks. [54-35]

And (Lut) did warn them of Our Punishment, but they disputed about the Warning. [54-36]

And they even sought to snatch away his guests from him, but We blinded their eyes. (They heard:) "Now taste ye My Wrath and My Warning." [54-37]

Early on the morrow an abiding Punishment seized them: [54-38]

"So taste ye My Wrath and My Warning." [54-39]
The story of Lut's (as) people is told quite a few times in the Quran as mentioned above. These people were practicing homosexuality and were warned about what they were doing. They continued their vile practices and were then destroyed.

Homosexuality is not just a sin in Islam, it is clearly a great sin.

It is not something which is genetic, it is a choice which people make. Let's clarify a little about genetics. My height is based on my genetics, I had no choice as to what my height was to be, it is given to me. If Allah were to say that I was 'trespassing beyond bounds' for being my height then Allah would be unjust as it is He who has given me my height in the first place - I never chose it.

And Allah is never unjust.

In the same way, if homosexuality was genetic then again Allah would be unjust. The very fact that Allah is never unjust proves that homosexuality is not genetic, it is a choice. People choose to do these things, the same way people choose to drink alcohol or commit adultery. So no, people are not born with this disease, stop trying to make up excuses to justify it.

From the points above we can conclude that if you claim that homosexulity is genetic and people are born with it, then you must also accept that Allah is unjust because he destroyed a people who didn't choose homosexuality - they were just born that way.

And I reiterate that Allah is NEVER unjust.

The media plays a ridiculously large role in this in advertising that it's ok to be gay and ok to love/marry a man, by allowing this, the media has also allowed the shaytan access to millions if not billions and clearly the people are listening to the shaytan.

The shaytan whispers, the man listens. The man listening is his choice, the shaytan cannot make man do anything.

You may have met a homosexual who is a nice person, or who you enjoy keeping company with however please remember that what they have chosen to do is a great sin (see above about the destroying etc). The same way if you keep company with a person who is committing shirk constantly, they might be a nice person however they are committing a great sin. Why encourage it? Why support it? And always think, what would the Prophet (pbuh) do if he was in your situation, and was in the company of people who commit these kinds of sins.

And this is all without even getting into STD's.

also, what the hell? I'm shocked at the response from many of the Muslims in this thread. Stop trying to justify this abomination. It is a practice that got an entire people destroyed by way of brimstone rained from the sky! Destroyed!

Destroyed! Is that not warning enough?
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Ramadhan
09-19-2010, 01:15 PM
Your exaplanation above is among the best I've seen on this topic. Simple, eloquent and yet incisive.

format_quote Originally Posted by ghost
also, what the hell? I'm shocked at the response from many of the Muslims in this thread. Stop trying to justify this abomination. It is a practice that got an entire people destroyed by way of brimstone rained from the sky! Destroyed!
LOL. I love your verbal style

;D
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Salahudeen
09-19-2010, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
If God knows what's in your heart, can a gay person be punished for simply BEING gay and suppressing it, or must they follow through with the actions that go along with homosexuality?
If you have sinful desires you won't get punished if you refrain from acting upon them. You'll get rewarded instead for striving against the inpure desires.
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Ummu Sufyaan
09-20-2010, 03:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Well to stop the other thread "rip" from going too far off topic there is a new discussion about homosexuality here. So people's views?

All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality. I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?

Also I would love to hear opinions of all different religions.
i think when people are against homosexuality, its more like being against their human nature/barest instincts. i believe innate in the individuals nature, is the need for survival and anything that threatens this, he/she will naturally hate/dislike, in this case homosexuality. Yes, the human race isn't short in numbers, but what if it was? what will keep the human race going? imagine that the human race was short in numbers? would we be pro homosexuality them?
who are we all going to look towards and hold accountable? who will we all fight against to keep us going? heterosexuals? i don't think so.

supporting homosexuality might as well as be supporting your death/death of your instinct to live.
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marwen
09-20-2010, 10:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ummu Sufyaan
i think when people are against homosexuality, its more like being against their human nature/barest instincts. i believe innate in the individuals nature, is the need for survival and anything that threatens this, he/she will naturally hate/dislike, in this case homosexuality. Yes, the human race isn't short in numbers, but what if it was? what will keep the human race going? imagine that the human race was short in numbers? would we be pro homosexuality them?
who are we all going to look towards and hold accountable? who will we all fight against to keep us going? heterosexuals? i don't think so.

supporting homosexuality might as well as be supporting your death/death of your instinct to live.
Good Point ! :thumbs_up

Imagine, if one day a giant comet strike the earth, leading to the death of all humans, except one country containing only gay people (:nervous:) . Result : We're screwed ! :skeleton:
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aadil77
09-20-2010, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by squiggle
If you have sinful desires you won't get punished if you refrain from acting upon them. You'll get rewarded instead for striving against the inpure desires.
thats the beauty of islam, you get rewarded instead for avoiding sin
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czgibson
09-20-2010, 08:08 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Do you ever wonder why only in recent years (maybe the past 30 years) it seems the number of homosexuals increased exponentially, coincided with the general moral degradation of society and the decline of religious values in many societies?
Hasn't pretty much every generation witnessed complaints about the moral decline of society?

Peace
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Hasn't pretty much every generation witnessed complaints about the moral decline of society?

Peace
it maybe true, but are you aware of widespread gay marriages/gay unions/etc in every generation??
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Woodrow
09-21-2010, 07:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


Hasn't pretty much every generation witnessed complaints about the moral decline of society?

Peace
All the ones that left a written legacy seem to have. History does repeat itself and we seldom learn from the lesson's of the past. It seems that many fallen nations had an era of permissiveness and sexual excesses in the era immediatly preceeding their down fall. While there is a strong correlation between over indulgence in sexual activities and the downfall of nations. My opinion as to causation is only my opinion. I really do not know if sexual extremes bring about the fall of nations or if the fall of nations brings about sexual extremes. I only see a correlation between the 2 and when you have one the other is very close.
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czgibson
09-21-2010, 08:29 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
it maybe true, but are you aware of widespread gay marriages/gay unions/etc in every generation??
It depends what you mean by widespread. Homosexuality has been recorded in many societies and during many different times in history, with some examples featuring more widespread or open homosexuality than others. It is a mistake to believe that the current situation, where we apparently have many people openly engaging in homosexual relationships, is something entirely new.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
All the ones that left a written legacy seem to have. History does repeat itself and we seldom learn from the lesson's of the past. It seems that many fallen nations had an era of permissiveness and sexual excesses in the era immediatly preceeding their down fall. While there is a strong correlation between over indulgence in sexual activities and the downfall of nations. My opinion as to causation is only my opinion. I really do not know if sexual extremes bring about the fall of nations or if the fall of nations brings about sexual extremes. I only see a correlation between the 2 and when you have one the other is very close.
If we restrict the discussion to homosexuality, I am not sure this is the case. Homosexuality was widely and openly practised in Ancient Greece for centuries before the downfall of that society. The first Roman emperors were almost all homosexual or bisexual, with certain types of homosexual love being widely accepted at many times during the Roman republic and beyond, and that society remained very strong for centuries after. The Han dynasty had ten openly bisexual emperors during its first two hundred years, and historically the stigma attached to homosexuality in many societies has not always existed in China, since none of its main religions considers homosexual acts to be sinful, as long as those indulging are prepared to produce heirs also.

If you would like elaborate on the correlation you see regarding the wider designation "permissiveness and sexual excesses" and societal breakdown, that would be interesting, but it may be outwith the bounds of this thread.

Peace
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Woodrow
09-21-2010, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



It depends what you mean by widespread. Homosexuality has been recorded in many societies and during many different times in history, with some examples featuring more widespread or open homosexuality than others. It is a mistake to believe that the current situation, where we apparently have many people openly engaging in homosexual relationships, is something entirely new.



If we restrict the discussion to homosexuality, I am not sure this is the case. Homosexuality was widely and openly practised in Ancient Greece for centuries before the downfall of that society. The first Roman emperors were almost all homosexual or bisexual, with certain types of homosexual love being widely accepted at many times during the Roman republic and beyond, and that society remained very strong for centuries after. The Han dynasty had ten openly bisexual emperors during its first two hundred years, and historically the stigma attached to homosexuality in many societies has not always existed in China, since none of its main religions considers homosexual acts to be sinful, as long as those indulging are prepared to produce heirs also.

If you would like elaborate on the correlation you see regarding the wider designation "permissiveness and sexual excesses" and societal breakdown, that would be interesting, but it may be outwith the bounds of this thread.

Peace
I agree that homosexuality was wide spread and lasted for centuries before the demise of the Greek and Roman empires. Homosexuality and other sexual excesses are all parts of behavior that are considered to be abnormal by the Abrahamic Faiths. It is the blatant exhibitionist character of these behaviors that seem to be the most visible at the time of a nation's collapse. There are also not so visible aspects becoming widespread such as apathy, hedonism, loss of Religious practices, and a rise in national aggressiveness. The Great empires such as Rome and Greece did not collapse by being conquered, they imploded and collapsed from within. Many things cause this and while it may be impossible to point a finger at any one cause, a visible happening is Sexual Excesses and acceptance of that which their forefathers shunned (Permissiveness). These all took place in the Roman and Greek Empires, The Courts of Charlemagne, the Reigns of the French kings, The Holy Roman Empire, and even Tsarist Russia. I can not say these are the causes or only causes of the collapse of Nations, but it does seem they do occur or increase in visibility preceding the collapse of a Nation.
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Woodrow
09-21-2010, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



It depends what you mean by widespread. Homosexuality has been recorded in many societies and during many different times in history, with some examples featuring more widespread or open homosexuality than others. It is a mistake to believe that the current situation, where we apparently have many people openly engaging in homosexual relationships, is something entirely new.



If we restrict the discussion to homosexuality, I am not sure this is the case. Homosexuality was widely and openly practised in Ancient Greece for centuries before the downfall of that society. The first Roman emperors were almost all homosexual or bisexual, with certain types of homosexual love being widely accepted at many times during the Roman republic and beyond, and that society remained very strong for centuries after. The Han dynasty had ten openly bisexual emperors during its first two hundred years, and historically the stigma attached to homosexuality in many societies has not always existed in China, since none of its main religions considers homosexual acts to be sinful, as long as those indulging are prepared to produce heirs also.

If you would like elaborate on the correlation you see regarding the wider designation "permissiveness and sexual excesses" and societal breakdown, that would be interesting, but it may be outwith the bounds of this thread.

Peace
I agree that homosexuality was wide spread and lasted for centuries before the demise of the Greek and Roman empires. Homosexuality and other sexual excesses are all parts of behavior that are considered to be abnormal by the Abrahamic Faiths. It is the blatant exhibitionist character of these behaviors that seem to be the most visible at the time of a nation's collapse. There are also not so visible aspects becoming widespread such as apathy, hedonism, loss of Religious practices, and a rise in national aggressiveness. The Great empires such as Rome and Greece did not collapse by being conquered, they imploded and collapsed from within. Many things cause this and while it may be impossible to point a finger at any one cause, a visible happening is Sexual Excesses and acceptance of that which their forefathers shunned (Permissiveness). These all took place in the Roman and Greek Empires, The Courts of Charlemagne, the Reigns of the French kings, The Holy Roman Empire, and even Tsarist Russia. I can not say these are the causes or only causes of the collapse of Nations, but it does seem they do occur or increase in visibility preceding the collapse of a Nation.
Reply

Yanal
09-22-2010, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Well to stop the other thread "rip" from going too far off topic there is a new discussion about homosexuality here. So people's views?

All I can say is that I believe it's something can't be helped, that for some reason certain people have traits of the opposite sex and this leads to homosexuality. I have gay friends and they are lovely people. Has anyone against homosexuality come into contact with many gay people?

Also I would love to hear opinions of all different religions.
Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

As-Salaamu 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi,

I am not oppose to it due to the fact that they cannot resist it(them being attracted to the same sex), it is like how we are attracted to the opposite sex. We must attempt to see it from their point of view before we begin discriminating them(I am not stating that anyone is).I have come across a few in my life span,but I look at them as I would as any regular person,and in my opinion that is how everyone should act when confronted,insha'Allaah.
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