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truth finder
09-16-2010, 04:49 PM
Is USA a Christian country? Absolutely not! If I declare the message of Gospel in the main street of New York City, I would be ridiculed and made fun of by passersby. Perhaps security guards would come to shut my mouth. If I talk about Jesus openly in the workplace, I would be fired. The list goes on and on. Abortion, same sex marriage, too liberal life style and other immoral behaviors are accepted as normal because the majority of the population supports them. Then how could US be a Christian country no matter how many percentages of people claim to be Christians? If just half of the population were genuine Christians, the society would be much different from what it is now. Do not be confused with patriotism and faith. No, US are a secular country. They decide things for their own national interest, not for the interest of Jesus. However, I want US to remain a secular country although I am concerned about some undesirable immoral issues. I would be one of the first people against the nationalization of our faith, because we have learned a painful lesson from the history during the Dark Ages. Nationalization or institutionalization of (any) belief is the beginning of disaster!

When our belief was nationalized long time ago, everybody was required or forced to believe it from birth against their will. If any question or doubt was raised openly which was against the belief or its tradition, people were persecuted just for their different views. Because honest question or doubt was considered as dishonoring God, society, and family, cruel punishments such as honor killing and public execution were justified and exercised. I do admit that during this dark age of our belief our spiritual forefathers did many cruel things to humanity in the name of God through the Crusades, the Inquisition and some other means. They were in stark contrast to the unconditional love of Jesus for all human beings. Many innocent people including Jews and Muslims were persecuted during this Dark Age. On behalf of our spiritual ancestors I sincerely apologize to all humanity. Every cruel deed was justified simply because it was done for the glory of God. Without knowing that God regards human beings the most precious in the world, religious and political leaders persecuted and killed many innocent people with the wrong perception that this cruel act purified the society from evil and thus honored God. In fact these things are much more evil than immorality. It was very much like former communist countries such as North Korea with the only difference that the ideology of communism was replaced by religion.

This is what I mean by the danger of nationalization or institutionalization of belief. I am glad we do not live anymore in this shameful dark age of the past caused by the nationalization of faith. Belief should be a personal matter. It is a personal relationship between an individual and God. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or leave their belief. Only the Creator himself is above human beings because He created them. No religions, no religious rules, no religious traditions, and absolutely nothing are above the precious human lives.
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Grace Seeker
09-16-2010, 06:59 PM
I agree. Though I have no doubt that most (not all) of the Founding Fathers were themselves sincere Christians and hoped that the Christian culture would be the dominant culture of the land. The USA is NOT a Christian nation. It is secular. It's political structure is completely a-theistic. (Meaning without God, not anti-God.) And I don't really want to live in a theocracy that is actually ruled by human intermediaries who interpret for me what God's will is alleged to be. I say "alleged" because as I look at some who have been in authority and declared what they understood God's will to be in the operation of governments in the past, I often find myself in disagreement. So, should any one be given that kind of authority today, I have no reason to believe that they would do a better job than those in the past. Therefore, I am more comfortable with the government being derived from the collective will of the governed than the interpretation of a few with regard to the divine will.
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truth finder
09-16-2010, 08:44 PM
Hi Grace Seeker

Thank you very much for your reply. I agree with much of your comment. USA is not a Christian country in the sense that the Constitution does not accept Christianity as the national religion, together with the principle of the separation of church and state. It is clearly different from other theocratic countries. Here is the definition of a Christian. A Christian is someone who has restored the broken relationship with God by sincerely accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness. It does not matter if he/she was born to Christian parents, or he/she was baptized when young, or he/she goes to church every Sunday, or he/she is a priest or pastor or even a pope. Many people in the west think they are Christians, although they are not. They are merely church goers.
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marwen
09-16-2010, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by truth finder
People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or leave their belief. Only the Creator himself is above human beings because He created them. No religions, no religious rules, no religious traditions, and absolutely nothing are above the precious human lives.
I liked these lines. Thank you for sharing this thread with us.
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سيف الله
09-16-2010, 09:20 PM
Salaam

So what is the point of your post? That Christians have to suppress their faith in order to fit in? And if you express it you'll be mocked or worse get sacked from your job? Wonderful where do I sign up?

Muslim peoples encounter with western style secularism has not been a happy one and so are deeply suspicious. In fact many secular governments in the middle east ruthlessly imposed secularism on an unwilling public. In the 1920s the Turkish leader Attaturk determined to ape after the western suppressed the madrasas (religious schools) abolished sufi orders, mandated a latin alphabet instead of arabic, imposed western surnames in place of old Islamic names and titles and forced Turks to wear western dress.

Reza Shah Pahlavi, the shah of Iran who ruled from 1921 to 1941, stripped the ulama, the religious scholars of their endowment, replaced the sharia with a civil law code, prohibited citizens from going on hajj, suppressed the shia religious rites commemorating the death of Husayn and forbade Islamic dress. His soldiers tore off womens veils in the street, and unarmed protesters who demonstrated against the regime dress laws in 1935 were shot hundred died. His son Muhammed Reza Shah (1944 - 1979) was just as anti relgious. He closed madrasas, retricted public displays of religion and imprisoned exiled and killed many members of the ulama

Because of this and undoubtedly many more experiences secualrism is perceived by many Muslims as anto religious, intolerant and a threat to the very basis of Islamic society and judging by USA 'efforts' to bring 'freedom' and 'democracy' to the middle east, muslims are right to be wary, very wary.

So no just because you have had a bad experience with christianity during your history doesnt mean all religious people from whereever have had similiar experiences. Your style of government works for you, why dont you leave others to decide what type of governments work for them alright and stop interfering.

It is secular. It's political structure is completely a-theistic. (Meaning without God, not anti-God.)
Actually in the decades to come you'll realise that secularism is probably (among other things) the greatest danger to Christanity (other religions as well) as many perceptive American commentators have noted. Secularisation is well on its way in Europe and you can see the consequences for christianity as it is steadily marginalised out of public life (and if dawkinites could have their way, private life as well) becoming a weak and insignificant faith.

As has happend in Britain

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truth finder
09-17-2010, 01:27 AM
Hi Junon

The first purpose of my post is that many people including Muslims tend to identify USA with Christianity. USA is a secular country and makes their domestic and foreign policies for their own nation interest, not for the interest of Jesus. While USA is very much interested in oil, Jesus is not. As a born again Christian I do not support some of their domestic and foreign policies. The second purpose is the danger of nationalization of belief. Belief is a personal matter between an individual and God. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or leave their belief. No religions, no religious rules, no religious traditions should be above the precious human lives. Throughout the human history people including Christians have persecuted and killed fellow human beings for the sake of religion. They had the wrong perception that their cruel act purified the society from evil and thus honored God. As I reflect on what turned people into this kind of cruel behavior, the root cause of the problem is religious zeal. Many people are confused with religious zeal and the love of God. They are two different things. People with religious zeal think that religion is the most important, while people with the love of God think that God and human beings are the most important. People with religious zeal are very sensitive and explosive, while people with the love of God are very tolerant and joyful. People with religious zeal are easily offended, while people with the love of God are just smiling.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 01:34 AM
U.S is a zionist/fundie country (at least of late) and that is what dictates their decision and especially foreign policies!

all the best
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
U.S is a zionist/fundie country (at least of late) and that is what dictates their decision and especially foreign policies!

all the best
That is wrong, ignorant and hostile.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
That is wrong, ignorant and hostile.
It is the truth.. perhaps the truth can be a little harsh for delicate ears, but ignorant and wrong it isn't!

all the best
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

It is the truth.. perhaps the truth can be a little harsh for delicate ears, but ignorant and wrong it isn't!

all the best
What you've expressed here is an opinion. And you're certainly welcome to it. I won't argue with you on that. But it is certainly not the truth. It is more like, one side of a coin. There is good and bad in everything. Some things you may not like, but there is also plenty to like.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 02:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
What you've expressed here is an opinion. And you're certainly welcome to it. I won't argue with you on that. But it is certainly not the truth. It is more like, one side of a coin. There is good and bad in everything. Some things you may not like, but there is also plenty to like.
The opinion is an educated one and based on facts.. is there any other side than the one we see?
I don't need to even purchase books on the matter to see it plain'/patent to the naked eye.. let's not do the laundry list of laurelses foreign and domestic against folks well not fundie christian or Zionists..

have a grand day!
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:08 AM
It is how you see the world.... Believe me, I can't change that, nor can I try. A small percentage of what you say may hold some truth, but it is not the entire picture. If I'm not mistaken from reading other posts on this board, you're also of he belief that 9-11 was an inside job (forgive me if I'm mistaken). If that's the case, sadly I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. That's perfectly fine, but I don't like the idea that you may be walking around with this unnecessary hatred.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
It is how you see the world.... Believe me, I can't change that, nor can I try. A small percentage of what you say may hold some truth, but it is not the entire picture. If I'm not mistaken from reading other posts on this board, you're also of he belief that 9-11 was an inside job (forgive me if I'm mistaken). If that's the case, sadly I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. That's perfectly fine, but I don't like the idea that you may be walking around with this unnecessary hatred.
I can't believe you'd be challenging me on how 'I see the world' rather than the world currently for what it is-- I don't really value the opinion of folks who worship a man from west Asia nor do I view any decision made by them big or small as having any semblance of logic or common sense or of interest to their fellow man!..
nor have I the desire to see eye to eye with you, what would be the point of that?
As for my feelings, they are my own whatever their nature is, or would you like beyond wars, destruction and immense hatred (which is in fact spawned and bred) by your fellow countrymen to perform little lobotomies on people to rob them of whatever is left of their sense of self?

funny stuff!
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I can't believe you'd be challenging me on how 'I see the world' rather than the world currently for what it is-- I don't really value the opinion of folks who worship a man from west Asia nor do I view any decision made by them big or small as having any semblance of logic or common sense or of interest to their fellow man!..
nor have I the desire to see eye to eye with you, what would be the point of that?
As for my feelings, they are my own whatever their nature is, or would you like beyond wars, destruction and immense hatred (which is in fact spawned and bred) by your fellow countrymen to perform little lobotomies on people to rob them of whatever is left of their sense of self?

funny stuff!
I know my opinion doesn't matter here, as you're "clearly" the superior to me, but you're not showing yourself in the best light. I'm not challenging you on any of your beliefs. I was merely trying to point out that things are not as clear cut and negative as you make them out to be. But I think it's good that you don't value other people's opinions or listen to what anyone has to say. It makes it much easier to stick to what you "know". That's fine.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 02:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
I know my opinion doesn't matter here, as you're "clearly" the superior to me, but you're not showing yourself in the best light. I'm not challenging you on any of your beliefs. I was merely trying to point out that things are not as clear cut and negative as you make them out to be. But I think it's good that you don't value other people's opinions or listen to what anyone has to say. It makes it much easier to stick to what you "know". That's fine.
You can 'point out' the positives and your own brand of truths to like minded individuals, and I am sure you'd have quite the turnout as I understand it, the majority are molded from the same stock!
It is fine indeed.. as to why it required four unnecessary posts remains a conundrum or where you hoping for an ego stroke from some member who'll take pity on your insta modest, yawningly predictable rhetoric?


all the best
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truth finder
09-17-2010, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I can't believe you'd be challenging me on how 'I see the world' rather than the world currently for what it is-- I don't really value the opinion of folks who worship a man from west Asia nor do I view any decision made by them big or small as having any semblance of logic or common sense or of interest to their fellow man!..
nor have I the desire to see eye to eye with you, what would be the point of that?
As for my feelings, they are my own whatever their nature is, or would you like beyond wars, destruction and immense hatred (which is in fact spawned and bred) by your fellow countrymen to perform little lobotomies on people to rob them of whatever is left of their sense of self?

funny stuff!

You seem to have misunderstanding. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God who is revealed in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit). As DavidK565 said, you seem to be full of hatred and anger for whatever reason. This is a good indication that your temper comes from religious zeal instead of the love of God.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to have misunderstanding. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God who is revealed in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit). As DavidK565 said, you seem to be full of hatred and anger for whatever reason. This is a good indication that your temper comes from religious zeal instead of the love of God.
Having spent my youth in a catholic school, I am quite familiar with your beliefs, and it doesn't matter how you slice it, you are not monotheists, more akin to greek mythology except even there Zeus and Hercules aren't one in the same..
btw is there a hell in christianity? if yes and we all know that, it is the case, then how do you reconcile all that so called godlove with his eternal wrath?

funny stuff
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titus
09-17-2010, 02:56 AM
if yes and we all know that, it is the case, then how do you reconcile all that so called godlove with his eternal wrath?
Very similar to the way that Muslims do. After all, aren't some of the 99 names of Allah "The All Forgiving", "The Loving", and "The Merciful"?
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جوري
09-17-2010, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Very similar to the way that Muslims do. After all, aren't some of the 99 names of Allah "The All Forgiving", "The Loving", and "The Merciful"?
Not at all, whereas God's mercy overtakes his wrath in Islam, we have no disillusionment about incurring it.
There is been a swarm of late of 'Does Allah love everybody' you know the new christian motto if we are to neglect wipe-outs of entire folks as per bible and ignore centuries of christian history, to this newly found Jesus loves you, well if he loves you so much why does he haul your behind to the abyss? How does that work out exactly?
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truth finder
09-17-2010, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

Having spent my youth in a catholic school, I am quite familiar with your beliefs, and it doesn't matter how you slice it, you are not monotheists, more akin to greek mythology except even there Zeus and Hercules aren't one in the same..
btw is there a hell in christianity? if yes and we all know that, it is the case, then how do you reconcile all that so called godlove with his eternal wrath?

funny stuff
I do not think you were a Christian while going to the Catholic school. A Christian is someone who has restored the broken relationship with God by sincerely accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness. It does not matter if he/she was born to Christian parents, or he/she was baptized when young, or he/she goes to church every Sunday, or he/she is a priest or pastor or even a pope. Many people in the west think they are Christians, although they are not. They are merely churchgoers.

By seeing the way of your writing, you seem to be infected with negative psychology. God’s eternal wrath is not caused by rejecting Jesus as the Savior and Lord! Because our sins and rebellions against God, we were doomed to the eternal separation from God which is nothing but eternal death. That was our destiny in the first place. But we were rescued from God’s eternal wrath by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness for our sins. God’s love for us is unconditional in character. “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). Regardless of whether we will receive or reject His love of forgiveness, or whether we will submit to Him or not, He first gave us Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. This unconditional love motivates our deepest love and submission for God.
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titus
09-17-2010, 03:27 AM
Not at all, whereas God's mercy overtakes his wrath in Islam, we have no disillusionment about incurring it.
Exactly like I said, many Christians would argue something similar.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by truth finder
I do not think you were a Christian while going to the Catholic school. A Christian is someone who has restored the broken relationship with God by sincerely accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness. It does not matter if he/she was born to Christian parents, or he/she was baptized when young, or he/she goes to church every Sunday, or he/she is a priest or pastor or even a pope. Many people in the west think they are Christians, although they are not. They are merely churchgoers.
What does this have to do with understanding the basic tenets of your religion? faith shouldn't be based on blind acceptance in totality!
some semblance of common sense has to enter the picture, especially the article having to do with your salvation!
you allege I don't know that you don't worship three gods, and I am here to tell you, I have spent quite a large chunk in a catholic school taking your religion classes and attending your masses. I have quite the clue what your beliefs entail!
By seeing the way of your writing, you seem to be infected with negative psychology. God’s eternal wrath is not caused by rejecting Jesus as the Savior and Lord! Because our sins and rebellions against God, we were doomed to the eternal separation from God which is nothing but eternal death. That was our destiny in the first place. But we were rescued from God’s eternal wrath by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness for our sins. God’s love for us is unconditional in character. “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). Regardless of whether we will receive or reject His love of forgiveness, or whether we will submit to Him or not, He first gave us Jesus as a sacrifice for our sins. This unconditional love motivates our deepest love and submission for God.
lol.. why don't you break this down? Does god love everybody, it is a yes or no question, I don't need additives or preservatives, if god loves everyone then there would be no hell!

BTW, I don't need a cognitively conservative christian assessing my psychology. I'd really work on logic and basic math before I carry it over to complex sciences!

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Exactly like I said, many Christians would argue something similar.
Not at all, God doesn't love everyone, certainly not the evildoers!

all the best
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
That is wrong, ignorant and hostile.
Then explain about US middle east policy.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Then explain about US middle east policy.
benevolence, 'democracy' and 'christian enlightenment'

:w:
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titus
09-17-2010, 03:49 AM
I love my son but I still punish him.

You seem to believe that punishment, even eternal, and love are mutually exclusive.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

benevolence, 'democracy' and 'christian enlightenment'

:w:
I find it amusing that you can utter such random, inaccurate generalities, and not see how hypocritical you're being in the process.

The people on this board try to preach understanding and tolerance. However, you in particular do not practice what is being preached here. You make generalized, bigoted statements without giving thought to the possibility that you might have overreached.

If you want change in this world, try leading by example, rather than continuing to make all of the same mistakes, committing all of the same "crimes" that you accuse people in the west of making against Muslims do to their lack of understanding of Islam. All you're doing is propogating divisiveness.

And like I was trying to state in the beginning: Nothing is perfect, and the world is not black and white. There may be problems with the West, with the United States, with Christianity/Judaism, etc. But there are also problems with The middle east, and Islam and some of the Muslims who claim it is their religion.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I love my son but I still punish him.

You seem to believe that punishment, even eternal, and love are mutually exclusive.
If you really loved your son, then punishing him for eternity seems rather sadistic and out of reason!
punishment is meant to rehabilitate and better one, not be an eternal state!

format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
I find it amusing that you can utter such random, inaccurate generalities, and not see how hypocritical you're being in the process.
you mean like the utter random inaccurate generalities you are spewing now?
The people on this board try to preach understanding and tolerance. However, you in particular do not practice what is being preached here. You make generalized, bigoted statements without giving thought to the possibility that you might have overreached.
another general statement about a vague misunderstanding?
If you want change in this world, try leading by example, rather than continuing to make all of the same mistakes, committing all of the same "crimes" that you accuse people in the west of making against Muslims do to their lack of understanding of Islam. All you're doing is propogating divisiveness.
I just rather like pointing them out, as well they should be pointed out to the maximum!
And like I was trying to state in the beginning: Nothing is perfect, and the world is not black and white. There may be problems with the West, with the United States, with Christianity/Judaism, etc. But there are also problems with The middle east, and Islam and some of the Muslims who claim it is their religion.
I love the way you always rise to the occasion, thank God for your presence here!

all the best
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 04:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I love the way you always rise to the occasion, thank God for your presence here!
I love the way you try to get the last word :p
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جوري
09-17-2010, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
I love the way you try to get the last word :p
here is more to love! :rolleyes:

all the best
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 04:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to have misunderstanding. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God who is revealed in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit). As DavidK565 said, you seem to be full of hatred and anger for whatever reason. This is a good indication that your temper comes from religious zeal instead of the love of God.
let me count again:
The father (1) + the son (1) + holy spirit (1) = 3

or
Wishnu (1) + Shiva (1) + Brahma (1) = 3

or

Isis (1) + Horus (1) + Osiris (1) = 3

or

Zeus (1) + Poseidon (1) + Hades (1) = 3 (can be many more, depending how many person-gods you want to throw in)

or

The Horned God (1) + The Goddess (1) = 2 (Many Wiccans believe that the Horned God and Goddess are merely two aspects of the same Godhead, obviously they think 2 is more efficient than three, although they also supplement the two with various gods/goddesses).

or

Thor (1) + Odin (1) = 2 (can be many more, depending on your preferences).
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Exactly like I said, many Christians would argue something similar.
I have yet to read about that.
So far I've seen/read is these christians evangelists/missionaries/zealots talk endlessly abouthow god loves everybody, how god's love saves us all... love this..love that...
I have yet to hear christian talks about "justice", "fairness"
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 04:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565

And like I was trying to state in the beginning: Nothing is perfect, and the world is not black and white. There may be problems with the West, with the United States, with Christianity/Judaism, etc. But there are also problems with The middle east, and Islam and some of the Muslims who claim it is their religion.
Then explain about the jewish and christian leaders and churches and majority who are the main cheerleaders for the US foreign policies that specifically have killed millions of muslims.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I love my son but I still punish him.

You seem to believe that punishment, even eternal, and love are mutually exclusive.
How do you punish your son?

Do you punish your son by torturing him for the rest of his life until he dies?
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Karl
09-17-2010, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
U.S is a zionist/fundie country (at least of late) and that is what dictates their decision and especially foreign policies!

all the best
You hit the nail on the head LOL
All the real Christians in the USA are probably considered enemies of the state and are under constant serveilance. Look what happened at Waco Texas, Christians were exterminated.
Muslims in the US are probably targeted for termination too. They're all terrorists right?
Well maybe when the American empire falls we can all have a good nights sleep.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 04:43 AM
My quote that you have up there does not mean that I have to rationalize a justification for everyone's actions. It is merely a statement trying to demonstrate that no one is 100% innocent or 100% guilty. Everyone and everything is a mix of both.

On this board, I'm not going to take part in any political bickering. We're all adults here, for the most part, and all of us have our viewpoints. I doubt that anything I say would have an influence on you that would cause you to drastically change the way you look at the world. And the same probably goes for me.

Muslims have been killed and that is a shame. No one wants to see unnecessary loss of life. Christians and Jews and non-religious people have also been killed. It's all very unfortunate.
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جوري
09-17-2010, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
You hit the nail on the head LOL
All the real Christians in the USA are probably considered enemies of the state and are under constant serveilance. Look what happened at Waco Texas, Christians were exterminated.
Muslims in the US are probably targeted for termination too. They're all terrorists right?
Well maybe when the American empire falls we can all have a good nights sleep.
what makes you think we are not target for extermination and pretty soon by state law in that same fashion that enabled them to haul the japs and mexicans to concentration camps before.. they fix it so people think it is natural to hate out loud and turn into that mob mentality with full approval-- they couldn't open their mouth with a sliver what they spew toward any other minority, the way they do against Muslim. I am yet to go through a day without reading some disturbing vile comment or seeing someone actively suffer a sort of harassment or crime because they are bearded or covered up .. and the amazing thing is that they circulate books against us entitled because 'they hate' talk about projection?

:w:
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
You hit the nail on the head LOL
All the real Christians in the USA are probably considered enemies of the state and are under constant serveilance. Look what happened at Waco Texas, Christians were exterminated.
Muslims in the US are probably targeted for termination too. They're all terrorists right?
Well maybe when the American empire falls we can all have a good nights sleep.
Ok, I'll ignore the rest of the craziness, but just so you know, the people in the Waco Texas incident were not Christians. It was a cult of crazy people who thought that a guy named David Koresh was god. There were cases of illegal firearms and child abuse taking place.

They were not law-abiding Christians being "watched" by the government.
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Karl
09-17-2010, 05:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

what makes you think we are not target for extermination and pretty soon by state law in that same fashion that enabled them to haul the japs and mexicans to concentration camps before.. they fix it so people think it is natural to hate out loud and turn into that mob mentality with full approval-- they couldn't open their mouth with a sliver what they spew toward any other minority, the way they do against Muslim. I am yet to go through a day without reading some disturbing vile comment or seeing someone actively suffer a sort of harassment or crime because they are bearded or covered up .. and the amazing thing is that they circulate books against us entitled because 'they hate' talk about projection?

:w:
But I said Muslims ARE probably targeted for termination.
Muslims had better get out of the USA for their own survival. The US is unsafe and totally uncivilized. The people there are crazy bigots, look what happened to the native Americans only a few survived and they are still fighting for their rights. No use being somewhere where your hated.
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Karl
09-17-2010, 05:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
Ok, I'll ignore the rest of the craziness, but just so you know, the people in the Waco Texas incident were not Christians. It was a cult of crazy people who thought that a guy named David Koresh was god. There were cases of illegal firearms and child abuse taking place.

They were not law-abiding Christians being "watched" by the government.
So you believe in the government spin?
Same spin against Muslims, they're all child raping, women beating, militant terrorists blah blah.
BTW nothing in the bible against child marriage. And besides that most of these Christian cases the government persecution involves are young women aged around 12 or 13, not children.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 05:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
So you believe in the government spin?
Same spin against Muslims, they're all child raping, women beating, militant terrorists blah blah.
BTW nothing in the bible against child marriage. And besides that most of these Christian cases the government persecution involves are young women aged around 12 or 13, not children.
Question: Why is the news that I listen to "spin" but the news you listen to is "fact"? Seems like BS to me...

As for the CHILD RAPE taking place, in the modern world, its a crime. It doesn't matter what the bible says about it.
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Karl
09-17-2010, 05:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
Question: Why is the news that I listen to "spin" but the news you listen to is "fact"? Seems like BS to me...

As for the CHILD RAPE taking place, in the modern world, its a crime. It doesn't matter what the bible says about it.
Sorry I have no time for commie trolls. Twisting the facts.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 06:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
Muslims have been killed and that is a shame. No one wants to see unnecessary loss of life. Christians and Jews and non-religious people have also been killed. It's all very unfortunate.
It is interesting how you use the term "unfortunate" to describe the targeted invasions of muslim lands and killings of millions of muslims
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Insecured soul
09-17-2010, 09:21 AM
Even though USA isnt a christian country but its against tawheed (islamic monotheism) and fighting against it (muslims)
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titus
09-17-2010, 12:13 PM
Sorry I have no time for commie trolls. Twisting the facts.
Name calling instead of reasoned statements is a sign of a poor argument (or a lack of one).

I have yet to read about that.
So far I've seen/read is these christians evangelists/missionaries/zealots talk endlessly abouthow god loves everybody, how god's love saves us all... love this..love that...
I have yet to hear christian talks about "justice", "fairness"
Then you need to read or listen more. It isn't hard to find.

Do you punish your son by torturing him for the rest of his life until he dies?
No, but then I am not God. I wouldn't punish my son for eternity for the rest of his life because he didn't think I was his father.

Allah does that, though, according to your beliefs. I could be the nicest, most loving caring person in the world, but if I don't believe in Islam then I am condemned to eternal torment. That makes about as much sense to me as the Christian Hell.
Example
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truth finder
09-17-2010, 12:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
let me count again:
The father (1) + the son (1) + holy spirit (1) = 3

or
Wishnu (1) + Shiva (1) + Brahma (1) = 3

or

Isis (1) + Horus (1) + Osiris (1) = 3

or

Zeus (1) + Poseidon (1) + Hades (1) = 3 (can be many more, depending how many person-gods you want to throw in)

or

The Horned God (1) + The Goddess (1) = 2 (Many Wiccans believe that the Horned God and Goddess are merely two aspects of the same Godhead, obviously they think 2 is more efficient than three, although they also supplement the two with various gods/goddesses).

or

Thor (1) + Odin (1) = 2 (can be many more, depending on your preferences).
Thanks for your comment, friend. In fact I have heard a very similar argument from many Muslim friends: 1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Father Spirit) = 3 Gods. Therefore Christians worship three Gods.

But you seem to be confused about deity and non-deity. You are applying non-deity mathematics to deity. We cannot compare deity with non-deity. Deity is eternal, while non-deity is mortal. Deity is perfect, while non-deity is imperfect. Deity is pure, while non-deity is impure. The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Deity is like infinity, while non-deity is like finite. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. I hope you had a math class before.
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titus
09-17-2010, 01:04 PM
Saying that Christians believe in three gods is the same as saying that Muslims pray to a rock five times a day.

While on the surface it may appear true, a little honest research proves them both false.

If you don't believe that Christians are monotheistic then take a simple test: Ask them how many Gods there are. They will answer one.

I find it silly that Muslims continually try to convince Christians that they don't believe what they say they believe.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 01:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
It is interesting how you use the term "unfortunate" to describe the targeted invasions of muslim lands and killings of millions of muslims
I said that its unfortunate that anyone has died in conflict. That includes muslims, christians, Jews, and anyone else.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Saying that Christians believe in three gods is the same as saying that Muslims pray to a rock five times a day.
LOL.
Are you christians that desperate?

While on the surface it may appear true, a little honest research proves them both false.

If you don't believe that Christians are monotheistic then take a simple test: Ask them how many Gods there are. They will answer one.
Are you even that insecure?
Just a moment ago i thought you were claiming you worship a three in one gods.


I find it silly that Muslims continually try to convince Christians that they don't believe what they say they believe.
We don't need to convince christians.
Increasing number of christians (especially in developed countries) are becoming disillusioned that the christianity creed is so illogical and absurd that they've become atheists and agnostics in millions.
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aadil77
09-17-2010, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Saying that Christians believe in three gods is the same as saying that Muslims pray to a rock five times a day.

While on the surface it may appear true, a little honest research proves them both false.

If you don't believe that Christians are monotheistic then take a simple test: Ask them how many Gods there are. They will answer one.

I find it silly that Muslims continually try to convince Christians that they don't believe what they say they believe.
hmm...never seen such a large cube shaped rock before

I find it silly how 3 can equal 1, so?
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
I said that its unfortunate that anyone has died in conflict. That includes muslims, christians, Jews, and anyone else.
right.

We were not talking about generic though.
We were talking about specific US foreign policies that invaded muslim lands, killing million muslims, and drove away the whole nation and subject them to constant missiles attack while labelling them as terrorists.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your comment, friend. In fact I have heard a very similar argument from many Muslim friends: 1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Father Spirit) = 3 Gods. Therefore Christians worship three Gods.

But you seem to be confused about deity and non-deity. You are applying non-deity mathematics to deity. We cannot compare deity with non-deity. Deity is eternal, while non-deity is mortal. Deity is perfect, while non-deity is imperfect. Deity is pure, while non-deity is impure. The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Deity is like infinity, while non-deity is like finite. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. I hope you had a math class before.
So Jesus pbuh was infinity?

this is a new one. nice.

this is getting more absurd by the day.

I love how christians keep inventing more and more absurd terms and attempt at explaining how they worship three gods and yet are insecure enough that they don't want to be called as polytheists.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:15 PM
I wasn't talking about that.... you were the one that brought it up.

But if to you, the world starts on Day 0, and on Day 0, the US "invaded" or "occupied" Muslim lands, then there's nothing I can say that will change you mind. In reality, actions cause reactions. And it's a cycle that's been going on for quite some time.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:18 PM
What is the need to ridicule Christianity? If you don't believe in the trinity or whatever, then you find something you DO believe in. You already have, as you're Muslim. What does it matter to you what others believe? No one is trying to convert you here....
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
No, but then I am not God. I wouldn't punish my son for eternity for the rest of his life because he didn't think I was his father.
huh?
you made the analogy yourself because you attempted to explain christianity concept of god's love, and now you are taking it back?

Are you christians that devious and cunning and think others as blind as you are?


Allah does that, though, according to your beliefs. I could be the nicest, most loving caring person in the world, but if I don't believe in Islam then I am condemned to eternal torment. That makes about as much sense to me as the Christian Hell.
We don't claim Allah loves everyone, did we?

YOU were claiming God loves everyone, and you even made the analogy about you punishing your son

I suspect christians are very susceptible to anthromorphize their gods since they worship father and son.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
But if to you, the world starts on Day 0, and on Day 0, the US "invaded" or "occupied" Muslim lands, then there's nothing I can say that will change you mind. In reality, actions cause reactions. And it's a cycle that's been going on for quite some time.
In reality,
- The US totally supports Israel who drove away the natives of the whole nation (palestinians), took away their lands, and subject them to missiles attack and other attacks that killed women and children.
- The US invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq and killed a millions of muslims.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
What is the need to ridicule Christianity? If you don't believe in the trinity or whatever, then you find something you DO believe in. You already have, as you're Muslim. What does it matter to you what others believe? No one is trying to convert you here....
I don't think anyone is as much ridiculing christianity as putting facts in words.
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truth finder
09-17-2010, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I have yet to read about that.
So far I've seen/read is these christians evangelists/missionaries/zealots talk endlessly abouthow god loves everybody, how god's love saves us all... love this..love that...
I have yet to hear christian talks about "justice", "fairness"
Many Muslims make a similar statement about our faith: Christians enjoy immorality because they always talk about the love of God through Jesus Christ, instead of God's judgment and punishment? First of all, a Christian is someone who has restored the broken relationship with God by sincerely accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness. It does not matter if he/she was born to Christian parents, or he/she was baptized when young, or he/she goes to church every Sunday, or he/she is a priest or pastor or even a pope. We Christians are as serious as you Muslims are about immorality and social injustice in the world. Do you think most Christians enjoy illegal sexual relationships with more than one wife and some concubines? Do you think most of us watch pornography secretly at night? Do you think we support abortion and same sex marriage? Do you think we take drugs secretly? Of course not! When people deeply experience the breadth and depth of God's love that was most explicitly demonstrated through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for all human beings, they naturally stay away from immorality. “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). I am one of many living examples. This is the best and perhaps the most effective way to stay away from sin. Instead of struggling hard to avoid committing sins supplemented with the constant reminder of the threat of hell fire, people must deeply experience the love of God through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ to forgive our sins. “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28). This unconditional love for us motives our deepest love and submission to God. The obvious result of struggling hard to avoid committing sins supplemented with the continuous threat of hell fire, is a life of constant guilt, fear and frustration.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
In reality,
- The US totally supports Israel who drove away the natives of the whole nation (palestinians), took away their lands, and subject them to missiles attack and other attacks that killed women and children.
- The US invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq and killed a millions of muslims.
Right, so like I said, if you look at the world as though it started on Day 0, and on Day 0, the US came to town, then of course that's how you're going to see things. As usual, its not as clear-cut as that. The world is a complex place. Issues between Muslim and Christian nations have been going on long before the US even existed.
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DavidK565
09-17-2010, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
I don't think anyone is as much ridiculing christianity as putting facts in words.
When it comes to people's religions, there are beliefs. No facts. You have a set of beliefs and other people have a different set. Even within the same religion, people have a different interpretation of God and what he does. It really doesn't matter, as long as you are secure in your own faith.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 02:59 PM
Contrary to what christians -in this forum at least- who have been trying to spread lies about Islam, we muslim do not fear hellfire.
We fear Allah.
and not only that.
We have FEAR, LOVE and HOPE of Allah SWT.


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar




Question


Dear scholars, As-salamu `alaykum. Why is there is so much fear of Allah? We should love Allah, not be scared of Him. Jazakum Allahu khayran.




Answer


Wa `alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His sake.

As servants of Allah, we must entertain love and hope in Allah with fear of His wrath, for Allah is Most Merciful and Compassionate and He is also Stern in punishment. Fear alone, without hope, is not recommended, just as hope alone, without fear, is not recommended.

The ideal way is, therefore, to combine fear of Allah with hope in His mercy. We must fear Allah in such a way that we are prompted to avoid the things that incur His wrath; while we must entertain hope in Allah’s mercy in such a way that we must never hesitate to repent and change ourselves in order to receive the mercy of Allah.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

You are right in saying that we must love Allah, but at the same time it is wrong to suggest that love of Allah excludes fear of Him. For while we are to love Allah unconditionally, we must also be afraid of incurring His wrath. This is because of the fact that just as Allah, the Most Exalted and Glorious, is the Compassionate and Merciful, He is also the Just and Stern in punishment.

If we wish to delve deeper in to this issue, we must clarify the following:

The issue of love of Allah is not so much a matter based on reason and logic; it is, rather, something based on revelation, for the way to approach Allah is dictated by revelation and not by pure reason. It is Allah and Allah alone Who must teach us how to approach Him. Otherwise, we are simply comparing Allah with His creation, and thus we end up shaping Allah in our own mind. Therefore, there is no way for us humans to know about Allah’s nature except through His own revelation.

Allah tells us about His nature in the Qur’an: (Tell My servants that I am the Forgiving, the Compassionate, and that My torment is indeed the painful torment) (Al-Hijr 15: 49–50). And in another place, Allah describes Himself as follows: (Allah, the Mighty, the Knower, the Forgiver of sins, the Acceptor of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Bountiful. There is no deity beside Him. To Him is the final journey.) (Ghafir 40: 2–3).

Revelation tells us that as servants of Allah we must entertain love and hope of Allah with fear of His wrath, for Allah is Most Merciful and Compassionate and He is also Stern in punishment. Fear alone, without hope, is not recommended, just as hope alone, without fear, is not recommended.

The ideal way is, therefore, to combine fear of Allah with hope in His mercy. This, according to the Qur’an, is the way of prophets, the ideal role models for humanity. (They used to hasten to do good works, and called upon Us with hope and fear, and they were humble before Us) (Al-Anbiya’ 21: 90). We must fear Allah in such a way that we are prompted to avoid the things that incur His wrath, while we must entertain hope in Allah’s mercy in such a way that we must never hesitate to repent and change ourselves in order to receive the mercy of Allah.

It is also possible to explain this rationally, for it is not hard to reason that every earnest and sincere lover must also be afraid of displeasing his or her beloved, and hence he or she will be careful not to say or do things that may directly or indirectly earn his or her anger.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 03:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DavidK565
Right, so like I said, if you look at the world as though it started on Day 0, and on Day 0, the US came to town, then of course that's how you're going to see things. As usual, its not as clear-cut as that. The world is a complex place. Issues between Muslim and Christian nations have been going on long before the US even existed.
Facts:
- The US totally supports Israel who drove away the natives of the whole nation (palestinians), took away their lands, and subject them to missiles attack and other attacks that killed women and children.
- The US invaded and occupied Afghanistan and Iraq and killed a millions of muslims.
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Ramadhan
09-17-2010, 03:11 PM
When christians do not have fear of God, this is what has become of them:

Churches leaders who rape young boys,
general degradation of morals in society (high level of promiscuity, high rate of divorces and complete breakdowns of marriage and family, widespread abuse of drugs and alcohols, extreme and widespread pornography, destruction of women dignity)
super hipocrisy where it is ok to kill millions as long as they are not christians
high rates of conversion to atheism and agnotism and general abandonement of religion
etc etc
Reply

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