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MysticRiver
09-17-2010, 08:19 AM
A 15 year old girl was found dead in Ghazza street in Makkah. She was raped and then thrown from the roof of a nearby hotel. The police arrested a Yemeni citizen and another from Bengladesh while two others are being searched for. All of them work in the hotel where the victim and her family were staying.

Hundreds of Algerian citizens, who were there to perform the Umrah, gathered to ask for justice. Will we ever know the truth? Will the disgusting stages be followed? I mean the stages where people will say things about the poor girls. Why she was there, what she was wearing, you know, the kind of lies that veil most of the rapes that happen there...

Sattar ya Rabb!!

http://www.saudiwave.com/index.php?o...ity&Itemid=166 ........
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
09-17-2010, 04:18 PM
Subhaan`Allaah

May Allaah grant the girl Justice Ameen

Sad and sick world we live in!
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ardianto
09-17-2010, 04:41 PM
That's happened not in another place, but in Makah.


Why ?
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cat eyes
09-17-2010, 04:54 PM
i am shocked that people would even attempt a crime like that with the punishments they have out their.
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Cabdullahi
09-17-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by cat eyes
i am shocked that people would even attempt a crime like that with the punishments they have out their.
They have nowhere to run to now when its a straight axe to the neck!
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tango92
09-17-2010, 05:38 PM
a shame you cant kill these types of criminals twice
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Snowflake
09-17-2010, 05:53 PM
SubhanAllah!!! I felt I was going to die reading that. In makkah? :cry:

May Allah bring forth the shaytaans responsible
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Güven
09-17-2010, 06:52 PM
Just when you think you are at the safest place on earth, you get this. subhanAllah, The day of judgement is truly near. May Allah have mercy upon us.
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tango92
09-17-2010, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Güven
Just when you think you are at the safest place on earth, you get this. subhanAllah, The day of judgement is truly near. May Allah have mercy upon us.
theres plenty of theivery there aswell, be under no illusion
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Mujahidah4Allah
09-17-2010, 07:32 PM
:sl:

If you ever do go for hajj/umrah, i suggest the women to really be careful of the hotel workers, even the ones who work in the shopping centers [especially if you're their kind i.e. bengali/pakistani].

Wassalam
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islamirama
09-17-2010, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Mujahidah4Allah
:sl:

If you ever do go for hajj/umrah, i suggest the women to really be careful of the hotel workers, even the ones who work in the shopping centers [especially if you're their kind i.e. bengali/pakistani].

Wassalam
are you talking from experience? If not than that is a sweeping generalization. This girl was algerian, not one of "their kind"
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Mujahidah4Allah
09-17-2010, 08:06 PM
^ yes sister i'm talking from experience, even when it came down to the little children [girls aged 2-7].

Wassalam
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aadil77
09-17-2010, 08:23 PM
no place on earth is free from evil, messed up world we live in
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TabTabiun
09-17-2010, 09:00 PM
That is sick inshaAllahu taala they will find the nuts that did this heinous crime!
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Billal-A
09-17-2010, 09:23 PM
Rape victim plunges to death in Makkah By Hatim Al-Mas’oudi and Muhammad Al-Omairi

MAKKAH – Authorities in Makkah are investigating four expatriates from Yemen and Bangladesh in connection with the suspected rape and murder of a 15-year-old Algerian girl.
She was reportedly thrown from the 16th floor of Al-Muhajireen Hotel in Makkah on Wednesday. Security officials had to be brought in to restore order after the girl’s body was found because Algerian Umrah pilgrims in Al-Ghazzah District closed the main road and demanded to see the Algerian envoy to the Kingdom. Maj. Abdul Mohsin Al-Maiman, spokesman for the Makkah Police, said a group of Algerian Umrah pilgrims had gathered following the girl’s fall from the 16th floor of a hotel in the area close to the Grand Mosque. She fell on the roof of a neighboring hotel. He said the girl’s fall had slightly injured two Bangladeshi laborers working on the roof of the neighboring hotel.

Al-Maiman said that according to the girl’s former stepfather, the girl and her family live in France. She went missing at 9 P.M. on the night of the incident. Al-Maiman pointed out that the girl’s body was examined by criminal investigation teams and a forensic expert. He said several workers in the hotel are being held for interrogation. Foul play is suspected, he said. The security authorities in Makkah Police have arrested several people who were present when the incident took place. They were taken to Al-Qararah Police Station for further investigation. Sources told Okaz/Saudi Gazette that the two Yemeni workers employed by the hotel are illegal residents and violators of the residency (Iqama) and labor regulations. One of them has allegedly admitted he had developed a relationship with the girl during Ramadan. The sources said the girl came for Umrah in Ramadan with a guardian. Her family was not able to bring her for Umrah so she came with a relative. They were supposed to depart on the morning the incident took place. A preliminary examination of the body by the coroner found several fractures on different parts of her body. The body is in the King Faisal Hospital’s morgue in Al-Shisha. There are demands for the body to be examined by a Shariah medical committee and for a detailed report on her condition to be issued.

At Fajr (dawn) prayers the news had spread of the girl’s death. Over 300 Algerian Umrah pilgrims protested in front of the hotel after closing the main road. They demanded to see their ambassador to the Kingdom and for the perpetrators to be arrested and punished. Brig. Gen. Ibrahim Al-Hamzi, director of Makkah Police, moved his security teams into the area to pacify the angry pilgrims and to reassure them that the Kingdom’s law will ensure justice is done. After three hours of discussions the road was reopened and normal traffic flow resumed. – Okaz/SG

--------------

Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaah

OK now this is bad no doubt. May the perpetrators of such evil be punished severely and justice prevail.

But as always there seems to be more to it than just what is read about it. The man who did it admitted to having a relationship with the girl. Now if this is true this shows the evil and danger of zina and any kind of it, whether that be zina of the eyes, of speech, of hearing and of action. We are warned "Laa taqrabuz zinaa" - "Do not approach/come near zina" meaning all avenues to it must be strictly cut off. A woman must be accompanied by a mahram when travelling away from home, she must not be initiating any kind of relationship with strange men and must be on guard from the plots of the shayaateen from among men and jinn.

So yet again we cannot be so extreme as just to say what a fellow member is saying about criticising the girls actions in what she was doing or wearing etc. We always condemn evil in all of its forms and in all of its mistakes and cannot let our mind and our emotions block us from speaking the truth. From what the reports are saying she is also liable for her negligence in adhering to the Islamic principles regarding unknown men.

Please do not confuse me as blaming the girl for everything. The man who has done it is a dog who deserves severe punishment, but we cannot exempt the sister from her negligences also.

May Allaah correct our affairs. Ameen.
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Al-Yasa
09-17-2010, 09:36 PM
no place is perfect. kinda shock it happaned there
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manaal
09-17-2010, 09:46 PM
The punishment for sins committed within the haram boundary is multiplied many times. These men will get their punishment from Allah on the day of Judgement, for nothing is hidden from Allah.



While, the crime of rape in my mind the worst on the face of this earth, this incident makes me think of the plight of migrant workers, working as labourers in the middle east. They get very poor salaries and have hardly enough to send back home. They rely on the tips and sadaqah given to them by the pilgrims. They don't have the means to maintain a family over here. Many of them have probably not seen their wives in many years.

I am not sympathising with these criminals in any way. It just made me think about what would have driven them to such a thing in the Holiest of places.
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islamirama
09-17-2010, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by manaal
It just made me think about what would have driven them to such a thing in the Holiest of places.
modern day slavery of migrant workers by arab world is the root cause of all this.

Gulf slavery system
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aadil77
09-17-2010, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
modern day slavery of migrant workers by arab world is the root cause of all this.

Gulf slavery system
bro nothing can make you rape and kill someone, mistreatment of foreign workers is a seperate issue
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Insecured soul
09-17-2010, 11:15 PM
This happend in makkah? are u guys sure?
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MysticRiver
09-17-2010, 11:27 PM
yes, in Ghazza street.
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Insecured soul
09-17-2010, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by MysticRiver
yes, in Ghazza street.
So i guess i was wrong to think such crimes didnt occur in mekkah? hmm....

These guys are muslim i assume?
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MysticRiver
09-17-2010, 11:42 PM
well, I wish they were not. Truly, I don't know if they're or aren't muslims.
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Billal-A
09-19-2010, 08:15 PM
Assalaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

This is what I was fearing that yet again the people who cannot control their emotional spew for the sake of the deen we know as Islaam simply cannot understand my point. Please I advise you all to fear Allaah as he aught to be feared and go back to my post, read it 10 times so that you may understand my point.

Every time a westerner in particular hears of rape it is as though they are unable to grasp the principles sharee'ah came with. As I mentioned time and time again I wish that the due punishment be afflicted upon the rapist which is that they should be killed. The murderer should be killed and I have always advocated this and will continue to advocate this till my dying days.

All I did and may Allaah correct you all by way of the Qur'an and Sunnah, is that everyone has a responsibility. All people have a duty to fulfill and a role in Islaam, they all have the responsibility to live their lives by way of what Allaah has decreed for them. In this manner we look at all aspects of any incident in order to ascertain the lessons we need to learn from it.

Likewise in this situation, although sensitive, highlights a reminder to us all about the principles Islaam has been revealed with. We are not 10% Muslim, in that we only follow parts of Islaam and leave parts, this is the trait of the Munaafiq and the Faasiq, not of a Muslim or a Mu'min. This incident has highlighted the following which is what I advised:

1. A woman must always be accompanied by a mahram: that is a brother, uncle, nephew or any man whom it is haram to marry because of their closeness to us in the family. This is to maintain the protection of the woman at all times especially overseas or in places where she may be vulnerable. This incident is living proof that Allaah is the Most Wise in giving us this ruling as the girl would not have been subject to this if accompanied by a mahram, Allaah willing it would have been a greater preventative measure for her.

2. A woman must also disengage from any talk or personal rapport with any non-Mahram [a person she is allowed to marry if she does a marriage contract with him]: This is to prevent oppression and the likelihood of fornication. So the eye must be protecting its gaze, the ear its hearing and all of the limbs must protect themselves from unnecessary and personal contact with non-Mahram members of society. This also applies equally to the man.

I swear by Allaah, I didnt say it was the woman's fault that she had been raped. It is the mans fault for the sins he committed, ie the rape and the murder, may Allaah give him what he deserves ameen. So please sweet106 let your "blood boil" for other reasons than me mentioning what the sharee'ah says about women who dont travel with a mahram and who freemix, if you have a problem with what I have said then I am sorry to say you have a problem with sharee'ah as this is what is confirmed in the Qur'an and sunnah. If you are so offended by what I have said regarding this then please take up your complaints with Allaah and his messenger [saws] on the Day of Judgement.

My point has always been that people always fail in their responsibilities and fail to realise that sharee'ah has come to protect them from all forms of harm. If a person strives to implement the Islamic code of conduct in their lives then the chances of them being subjected to such treatment would be minimised as much as possible as the sharee'ah is a means of protection, safety, harmony in society and living in ease.

An example of this incident is: Abdullaah beats up Mu'aadh for stealing. Abdullaah beats Mu'aadh to death. Abdullaah is sinning for the murder he has caused but does this mean that Mu'aadh is exempt from stealing? This is the point I am making. Each person is liable for his own sin and his own lackings and we should never say that a person is exempt from something if it is clear they did something haraam too. This haraam must be pointed out and we must continue to FORBID ALL MATTERS OF SIN.

I request that the so called Muslims on this forum just pause and reflect before they speak in haste, either due to their lack of control of emotion, or due to lack of knowledge about a particular issue. May Allaah allow us to be fair and balanced, have good thoughts and assumption of our fellow Muslims and not jump to conclusions regarding their statements if we may not understand them. May Allaah allow us all to save our women from injustice of the perversions from the men of this world and may Allaah allow them to protect themselves as much as possible by his sharee'ah so as to be as safe as possible from their evil. Ameen.
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Billal-A
09-19-2010, 08:20 PM
P.S: All this is based on going on the apparent statements of the Saudi Gazette or whoever else has reported the incident. I dont know the facts of the case or what was done this is only known to Allaah best. But my responses are based on the hypothetical incident as it has been informed to us. Allaah knows best whether it was migrant workers and not the Royal Family itself! This is why I said in my original post that this is what is being CLAIMED and is APPARENT not certain knowledge.

SubhanAllah
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Yanal
09-19-2010, 08:21 PM
:sl:

AstagfaruAllaah. Ameen to all du'as on this thread.
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Salahudeen
09-19-2010, 08:32 PM
I agree with akhi bilal and I understand his point, the shari'a is there to protect us and if we follow the rulings then the chances of harm coming to us is much less, for example my mother likes to go out at night to the shop, she all ways moans that I don't need to come with her, how she's a big girl and doesn't need protecting, one night a guy hassled her.

When she came back I told her if you had allowed me to go with you as the shari'a states then you would not have been hasssled probably.

now it's not her fault the guy hassled her but it could've been prevented if she followed the rulings of shari'a. This is all bilal is saying I believe.
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manaal
09-20-2010, 05:33 AM
Autopsy finds Algerian girl not raped

By BADEA ABU AL-NAJA | ARAB NEWS

Published: Sep 19, 2010 23:50 Updated: Sep 19, 2010 23:50

MAKKAH: A post-mortem report issued by Saudi authorities on Sunday showed that the 14-year-old Algerian girl who died Tuesday after falling from a Makkah hotel was not raped.

"The girl was not exposed to any physical or criminal attack and was a virgin," the report said. The post-mortem, however, found remnants of food she had partaken with a Yemeni worker before her death.

The post-mortem result refutes reports carried by some local Arabic newspapers that the girl was gang raped before falling from the 16th floor of the hotel where she was staying — Dar Al-Muhajireen in the city's Gaza district — on to the roof of an adjacent building.

Arab News learned from high-level sources that the girl had established friendly relations with the Yemeni worker and had agreed to join him for dinner at the top floor of the hotel where a few guests lived.

The girl went up without informing her stepfather with whom she had come to the Kingdom to perform Umrah.

The stepfather then informed hotel authorities that his daughter was missing and a Yemeni worker went up to the top floor and found the two eating dinner together. The second Yemeni man then rebuked his compatriot and told him that the girl's father was looking for her.

The source added that the girl then tried to jump on to the terrace of an adjacent building but missed. She fell on her legs and sustained bruises to her legs and shoulders.

The stepfather has been following the case from the beginning and has not objected to the results of the investigation, said the source, adding that the stepfather said that the girl went up to meet the Yemeni worker of her own. "It was her mistake and she got her punishment," the source quoted the stepfather as saying.

Meanwhile, a number of pilgrims of different nationalities have expressed their disappointment at the protest carried out by some 300 Algerians soon after news of the girl's death became public. The Algerian pilgrims blocked a road and raised the Algerian flag.

"The Algerians' action frightened other Muslim worshipers in the city," they said, urging all pilgrims to follow the Kingdom's rules and regulations. Businesses close to the hotel said they had lost business as a result of the Algerians' actions.

The police had earlier interrogated the two Yemenis. Police spokesman Maj. Abdul Mohsen Al-Maiman said the two men were living in the Kingdom illegally.

Meanwhile, Al-Fajr, an Algerian newspaper, carried a report recently saying that the girl was not raped. The paper quoted the girl's stepfather as saying she did not commit suicide and that he was planning to travel with her brother, Muhammad, to France the next day, Wednesday. He said he found the body of the girl while searching for her. The paper also said that the stepfather had expressed confidence in the investigations that are being carried out by the Saudi authorities.

In a related development, a video clip entitled "Message from Martyr Sarah Al-Khateeb to Saudi newspapers" have been circulating for some time on YouTube. One of the clips contains a number of pictures of the girl with comments. One comment said she came to Makkah to perform Umrah and never expected that people would try to rape her at such a holy place and that when she refused they threw her from the top of the hotel.

The video also attacked Saudi newspapers for allegedly accusing her of having sexual relations with the Yemeni worker. It was not clear who posted the video.
*Awaits attacks on Arab News from forum members.......*
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manaal
09-20-2010, 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:

I am always hesitant posting news like this on Islamic forum (I hardly do) because there are always people like Billal- A (people like that make my blood boil).

Amen to duas.
I personally would have posted this in the Muslim-only section.
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Salahudeen
09-20-2010, 04:45 PM
Sister Sweet, it would be beneficial if you applied the meaning of your name in the way you dialogued with people and talked in a nice way to your brothers. Not as if he's the scum of the Earth who's just comitted the most heinous of crimes. Good manners when discussing with people goes a long way as opposed to emotional outbursts.

I really don't understand what your issue is with Bilal's post. If you read his last post he said it's not the girl's fault. What he was saying is that such incidents are less likely to happen if the shari'a is followed. Now that doesn't mean he was saying the girl wasn't following the shari'a he said "If it's true she had a zina relationship" the keyword being "if" which means he didn't accept the testimoney of the murderer as true hence he said "If it's true"


Originally Posted by sweet106
Bilal

But just wanted to one thing

Funny
How
We
Apply
70 excuses
To brothers
So
Regularly
But
when
it is a sister
that is assaulted and killed
She must have played a part in it


Fear allah (swt).
Your point is? when did bilal make 70 excuses for the murderer? Read what he said below if you're confused.

Originally Posted by Billal-A
I swear by Allaah, I didnt say it was the woman's fault that she had been raped. It is the mans fault for the sins he committed, ie the rape and the murder, may Allaah give him what he deserves ameen. So please sweet106 let your "blood boil" for other reasons than me mentioning what the sharee'ah says about women who dont travel with a mahram and who freemix, if you have a problem with what I have said then I am sorry to say you have a problem with sharee'ah as this is what is confirmed in the Qur'an and sunnah.


Originally Posted by sweet106
We wont there, you have noooo right to place some or even little blame on her. Tbh honest you disgust me. Wasn’t she with her step father? That is a mahram. Because a scum said he had a relationship with her, it must be true. Shame she isn’t here to say her side because she is dead.
You're right none of us were there and none of us know the facts of the case, she may have been in a zina relationship with the individual she may not have been allah hu alam we don't really know cos we wern't there were we. We can not determine this unless we know the facts of the case so it's pointless discussing whether she was in zina relationship because we just don't know. How do you know there wasn't a zina relationship? Do you have access to witness reports or CCTV camera's?

What if there's witnesses claiming to have seen the couple together on prior occassions? what if there's cctv footage of the two of them walking around together? Do you have access to such things to see if the rapists claim is true or not? we can't merely say it's not true because of what he done, nor can we say it is true. We don't have the means to reach a conclusion about whether or not his statement about the zina relationship was true or not.

Regardless even if she was in a zina relationship this in no way justifies what was done to her, no body is justifying what happened to this girl or blaming her, this is your misconeption. I understood Bilal to mean that, the following of the shari'a reduces the chances of such an incident occurring. And if there was any negligence on the girls side this in no way justifies what happened to her however had she not been negligent the incident could have been prevented.

The key word being "and if" I'm not condemming her and saying it was all her fault because she should not have been in a zina relationship we're simply saying IF she was in a zina relationship she coulld've prevented this from occurring to herself by not getting involved in such a relationship. That's "if" she was,

^that doesn't immply what happened to her is justified it simply means it could have been prevented IF infact she was in a zina relationship, but the fact of the matter is neither of us can prove she wasn't and neither of us can prove she was because we don't have access to resources such as witness reports, cctv footage, all we know is she was thrown off a building. How this occurred we don't know. We can only say if she was in such a relationship then she could have prevented this harm from coming to her. But this in NO WAY JUSTIFIES what happened to her.

And we don't know of anything to say she was in a zina relationship, that's why we say "IF" meaning she is free from the charge, no 1 is saying she's guilty of a zina relationship however IF she was in such a relationship this could have been prevented by following the shari'a..

And no she wasn't with her stepfather you have seemd to misread again, she came with a guardian, we do not know if he accompanied her at all times or whether she was wondering around the city alone.

The sources said the girl came for Umrah in Ramadan with a guardian. Her family was not able to bring her for Umrah so she came with a relative. They were supposed to depart on the morning the incident took place.


I always stay always from people like YOU (for good reasons).
That meaning? people who advocate the following of the shari'a? or are you suggessting that Bilal is saying it's the victims fault? in which case see below.

Originally Posted by Billal-A
I swear by Allaah, I didnt say it was the woman's fault that she had been raped. It is the mans fault for the sins he committed, ie the rape and the murder, may Allaah give him what he deserves ameen. So please sweet106 let your "blood boil" for other reasons than me mentioning what the sharee'ah says about women who dont travel with a mahram and who freemix, if you have a problem with what I have said then I am sorry to say you have a problem with sharee'ah as this is what is confirmed in the Qur'an and sunnah.
I really don't see your issue, I think you have a stereo typed image in your head of Bilal being a person who all ways blames the woman and considers the man to never be at fault. If this is indeed true then what is your reason for thinking such a thing? Because I don't recall seeing in any of his posts blame being placed upon the girl. Rather all I see is you misunderstanding his statements and jumping the gun.


Let me give you an example,

"I heard sister sweet that you're into cocaine, if this is true then you're doing a bad thing here and it will lead to your destruction".

^Is this statement bad? does it mean you're guilty of what I said? of course not because I said "if it's true" and then I pointed out the consequences of doing such a thing.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
09-20-2010, 05:12 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum...audhubillah! Ameen to all the du'as...

Originally Posted by squiggle
Sister Sweet, it would be beneficial if you applied the meaning of your name in the way you dialogued with people and talked in a nice way to your brothers. Not as if he's the scum of the Earth who's just comitted the most heinous of crimes. Good manners when discussing with people goes a long way as opposed to emotional outbursts.

I really don't understand what your issue is with Bilal's post. If you read his last post he said it's not the girl's fault. What he was saying is that such incidents are less likely to happen if the shari'a is followed. Now that doesn't mean he was saying the girl wasn't following the shari'a he said "If it's true she had a zina relationship" the keyword being "if" which means he didn't accept the testimoney of the murderer as true hence he said "If it's true"




Your point is? when did bilal make 70 excuses for the murderer? Read what he said below if you're confused.







You're right none of us were there and none of us know the facts of the case, she may have been in a zina relationship with the individual she may not have been allah hu alam we don't really know cos we wern't there were we. We can not determine this unless we know the facts of the case so it's pointless discussing whether she was in zina relationship because we just don't know. How do you know there wasn't a zina relationship? Do you have access to witness reports or CCTV camera's?

What if there's witnesses claiming to have seen the couple together on prior occassions? what if there's cctv footage of the two of them walking around together? Do you have access to such things to see if the rapists claim is true or not? we can't merely say it's not true because of what he done, nor can we say it is true. We don't have the means to reach a conclusion about whether or not his statement about the zina relationship was true or not.

Regardless even if she was in a zina relationship this in no way justifies what was done to her, no body is justifying what happened to this girl or blaming her, this is your misconeption. I understood Bilal to mean that, the following of the shari'a reduces the chances of such an incident occurring. And if there was any negligence on the girls side this in no way justifies what happened to her however had she not been negligent the incident could have been prevented.

The key word being "and if" I'm not condemming her and saying it was all her fault because she should not have been in a zina relationship we're simply saying IF she was in a zina relationship she coulld've prevented this from occurring to herself by not getting involved in such a relationship. That's "if" she was,

^that doesn't immply what happened to her is justified it simply means it could have been prevented IF infact she was in a zina relationship, but the fact of the matter is neither of us can prove she wasn't and neither of us can prove she was because we don't have access to resources such as witness reports, cctv footage, all we know is she was thrown off a building. How this occurred we don't know. We can only say if she was in such a relationship then she could have prevented this harm from coming to her. But this in NO WAY JUSTIFIES what happened to her.

And we don't know of anything to say she was in a zina relationship, that's why we say "IF" meaning she is free from the charge, no 1 is saying she's guilty of a zina relationship however IF she was in such a relationship this could have been prevented by following the shari'a..

And no she wasn't with her stepfather you have seemd to misread again, she came with a guardian, we do not know if he accompanied her at all times or whether she was wondering around the city alone.







That meaning? people who advocate the following of the shari'a? or are you suggessting that Bilal is saying it's the victims fault? in which case see below.



I really don't see your issue, I think you have a stereo typed image in your head of Bilal being a person who all ways blames the woman and considers the man to never be at fault. If this is indeed true then what is your reason for thinking such a thing? Because I don't recall seeing in any of his posts blame being placed upon the girl. Rather all I see is you misunderstanding his statements and jumping the gun.


Let me give you an example,

I heard sister sweet that you're into cocaine, if this is true then you're doing a bad thing here and it will lead to your destruction. Is this statement bad? does it mean you're guilty of what I said? of course not because I said "if it's true" and then I pointed out the consequences of doing such a thing. Where is the problem?

SubhaanAllah...totally agree.

Back up off the bro please, thanks! It's not cool.
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The Ruler
09-20-2010, 05:34 PM
Silly feminists.

So yet again we cannot be so extreme as just to say what a fellow member is saying about criticising the girls actions in what she was doing or wearing etc. We always condemn evil in all of its forms and in all of its mistakes and cannot let our mind and our emotions block us from speaking the truth. From what the reports are saying she is also liable for her negligence in adhering to the Islamic principles regarding unknown men.

Please do not confuse me as blaming the girl for everything. The man who has done it is a dog who deserves severe punishment, but we cannot exempt the sister from her negligences also.
I believe Bilall (sp?) blames the perpetrator of the crime equally.
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The Ruler
09-20-2010, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
The fact that he is even blaming her “equally” is the problem. Maybe you should read what I have written (the last sentence of my last post at least). You "equally" disgust me too.
I am equally horrified.

There should be no ifs or buts. what happened has happened (if indeed it did happen). The rapist should take full responsibility.
There is no negligence on the girl’s part. It takes a certain type of mentality to rape. Once a rapist always a rapist.
Rather contradictory. Also, I find it highly amusing how you can, with such confidence, say, "there is no negligence on the girl’s part".
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Cabdullahi
09-20-2010, 05:59 PM
if you were doing halal i.e walking from the masjid or the shop and you got raped = no blame

if you went to another country and dined with a stranger on top of a hotel = blame for carelessness ( one cannot make bad choices and expect to be safe all the time )

The sister is dead so i think we should stop speculating we dont know what happened.
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The Ruler
09-20-2010, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
I suppose if your sister got raped in similar manner you would put some blame on her. Disgusting

What is rape? Would it be called rape or murder if the victim had some blame?
If she walked up to a man, in a bikini, then yes, I would blame her for whatever followed.

...Get a grip. However you look at it, you and others are justifying the crime.
No one is justifying the crime. What you have read in the above posts were mere speculations.
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Salahudeen
09-20-2010, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
:sl:


The whole point she is DEAD. We never know her part of the story. There are no ifs or buts. The whole point of him using “ifs” is put the blame of the victim. I am not the only one that concluded this. Bilal is obviously blaming the victim. He is trying to sugar coat the situation especially when he was questioned after his first post.
Bilal is obviously blaming the victim according to you and a few other people, bilal is obviously NOT blaming the victim according to me and a few other people so what does this proove? ;D

This is an extract from his first post,

Originally Posted by Billal-A
The man who did it admitted to having a relationship with the girl. Now if this is true this shows the evil and danger of zina and any kind of it, whether that be zina of the eyes, of speech, of hearing and of action. We are warned "Laa taqrabuz zinaa" - "Do not approach/come near zina" meaning all avenues to it must be strictly cut off. A woman must be accompanied by a mahram when travelling away from home, she must not be initiating any kind of relationship with strange men and must be on guard from the plots of the shayaateen from among men and jinn.
I high lighted the bit above where he cleared the girl of such charges by saying "Now if this is true" so what is your problem? he is not saying she is guilty, he is simply pointing out the dangers of zinna and all that you quoted came after he said "now if this is true" he didn't bang her to rights and say it's all her fault and she's guilty of zina, he said IF what the reports suggest are true and he has every right to do this. So what is the problem?


Originally Posted by sweet106

Why we even assuming she was or wasn’t with a guardian?
Let me explain it to you in a different way, Bilal said if she wasn't with a guardian then it's unfortuante because if she had a guardian with her this might have been prevented.

Originally Posted by sweet106

How does he know she had any relation with the man concerned? What is the point of that?
How do you know she never had a relation with him? are you her blood sister that she confided every intimate detail of her life to? have you seen any witness reports? have you seen any cctv footage? equally you can not say she never had any relation with the man can you?

You are asking what the point is? well let me explain to you, he is saying if she did have a relation let this be a warning to everyone not to go near zina.

Originally Posted by sweet106
From the quote above, he obviously think she has some blame.
hmm lets examine the quote you posted fairly shall we, it seems you are selective in your reading. Below is the post you quoted saying
t's obvious from this post that he thinks she has some blame.
Originally Posted by Billal-A
So yet again we cannot be so extreme as just to say what a fellow member is saying about criticising the girls actions in what she was doing or wearing etc. We always condemn evil in all of its forms and in all of its mistakes and cannot let our mind and our emotions block us from speaking the truth. From what the reports are saying she is also liable for her negligence in adhering to the Islamic principles regarding unknown men.

Please do not confuse me as blaming the girl for everything. The man who has done it is a dog who deserves severe punishment, but we cannot exempt the sister from her negligences also.
Now it seems you forgot to mention that at the start akhi bilal said Now if this is true this shows the evil and danger of zina and any kind of it, So what is your problem? he is saying if it is true then she could have prevented it by not getting involved in the relationship.

Is this not in fact a valid statement? And please don't judge him on one post, look at what else he said don't be selective be fair.

Originally Posted by Billal-A
I swear by Allaah, I didnt say it was the woman's fault that she had been raped. It is the mans fault for the sins he committed, ie the rape and the murder, may Allaah give him what he deserves ameen. So please sweet106 let your "blood boil" for other reasons than me mentioning what the sharee'ah says about women who dont travel with a mahram and who freemix, if you have a problem with what I have said then I am sorry to say you have a problem with sharee'ah as this is what is confirmed in the Qur'an and sunnah
Originally Posted by sweet106
Tell me the whole point of his posts then come back to me and say he isn't putting some blame on the victim.
The whole point of his posts are from what I can grasp is that you shouldn't, go near zina as it can lead to things like this. Not in any way that the girl is guilty of zina relationship because we don't know if she is or isn't.

Originally Posted by sweet106
There should be no ifs or buts. what happened has happened (if indeed it did happen). The rapist should take full responsibility.
There is no negligence on the girl’s part. It takes a certain type of mentality to rape. Once a rapist always a rapist.
You're right the rapist is at fault and what he done can not be justified in any way, but IF she was in a haraam relationship with him then she could of avoided what happened to her by not getting into that relationship. And this is what Bilal is saying I believe what part do you disagree with?
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Cabdullahi
09-20-2010, 06:16 PM
men get raped too :( but nobody cares we dont have no help lines or anything....when men get raped by other aggressive men they just get up and walk it off :(
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Salahudeen
09-20-2010, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
men get raped too :( but nobody cares we dont have no help lines or anything....when men get raped they just get up and walk it off :(
Well if the man was in a haraam relationship with a girl then he could've prevented her from raping him by avoiding this relationship. :)
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Cabdullahi
09-20-2010, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by squiggle
Well if the man was in a haraam relationship with a girl then he could've prevented her from raping him by avoiding this relationship. :)
no you silly lol :) i was not talking about that kind of rape......i was talking about men raped by rapist men theres no help line brother :cry:


i get ur point though and i agree
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S_87
09-20-2010, 06:29 PM
didnt anyone read sister manaals post on page 2? reports that the girl WASNT raped? :-\
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cat eyes
09-20-2010, 06:34 PM
yes its true men get raped by other men sadly their is not enough support for these victims.
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Salahudeen
09-20-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by sweet106
I suppose if your sister got raped in similar manner you would put some blame on her. Disgusting

What is rape? Would it be called rape or murder if the victim had some blame?...Get a grip. However you look at it, you and others are justifying the crime.

*awaits admin to close this thread*
If my sister got raped and it turned out she was in a haraam relationship I would say "see what happens when you disobey Allah and follow your desires my sister, it leads to destruction, had you not gotten involved with this man and obeyed Allah you could've avoided this harm, but what's done is done now we must look to the future, make repentance from being in this relationship and live ur life obeying allah from now on.

Then I would push for the man to receive the punishment for the crime.

If she had died and the man who raped her said he was in a relationship with her, then I would investigate such a claim. If it was found to be true I'd be sad that she didn't obey Allah and formed a haraam relationship and would kick myself for not advising her on the dangers of haraam relationships, I'd feel responsible for not making her see the dangers of disobeying Allah.

I'd also expect the man to be punished. And I would be saying to myself, "if only I had educated her better on the ills of haraam relationships she would still be alive"

If however such a relationship never existed I would feel like I never failed the girl and would still see the rapist punished.
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Woodrow
09-20-2010, 07:05 PM
This horrible story points out a sad fact of today's world.

Not everybody who wears the name Muslim, follows Islam.

It is disgusting this happened in one of our most Holy of cities, and a place where all Muslims should feel and be safe. But, the sad reality is that today evil is infiltrating ever corner of the Earth. Today is the time each and every Muslim needs to look within their own hearts and do a full self examination to verify they are not just wearing the name Muslim, but do their best to follow Islam.
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Billal-A
09-20-2010, 07:47 PM
Assalaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Subhaan Allaah it is amazing how we can dedicate so much time in argumentation and bonds of brotherhood, manners and respect can be so flimsily and easily ignored in the name of self-defence and lack of humbleness. Allaah knows of my sadness whenever I hear of the dhulm that happens to our sisters in various countries, in their various contexts around the world. Not only are our sisters subjected to rape, murder and oppression to the highest degree but we have to hear of unbelievable stories of the details of such events. Allaah also knows of my intense hatred of the rapist and murderer and he knows of my du'aas against the perpetrators of such crimes. Allaah also knows what is in my heart, what I intended by this defence and what I said was clear of what my intent was.

What scares me the most is, some of the sisters on here have subjected to insulting myself personally, generalising against me, making accusations and slanders againts what I said or meant in my post. But this I think should be forgiven of them due to the sensitive nature of this topic. Which leads me to ask these sisters the question, if they are unable to control themselves emotionally when discussing these topics and atleast have the courtesy to speak to me as I have addressed them, then surely they should exclude themselves from the discussion? Perhaps lack of knowledge of this issue mixed with sadness requires them to remain silent as they cannot stop themselves from insulting and generalising against their fellow Muslim, whom they are obliged to treat with kindness and respect, this is the basic requirement of sharing the kalimah Laa Ilaaha ill Allaah. But things can be forgiven.

This is my last response concerning this issue as I feel I do not need to defend myself any further my stance on this is clear:

1. We do not know what actually happened: it is now even questionable as to whether rape even occurred. This just proves my point that we should only speak hypothetically if matters are uncertain. This is the reason why I adopted the Sunnah of Abu Bakr [ra] in saying "If this is true...". Can we remember when Rasulullaah [saws] went to Al-Israa wal Mi'raaj (the night jorney)? The Prophet [saws] went to Al-Aqsa, to the seven heavens and back in one night and the next day when the kuffaar heard, they went to Abu Bakr [ra] and mocked at this event. Abu Bakr [ra] did not know if this was what the Prophet [saws] claimed so he said: "If this is true, then I believe in it". This also links with the aayah in Surah al-hujuraat [49]: "When a faasiq comes to you with news, verify it...". Because we dont know we cannot say a thing definitely happened until trustworthy news came to us.

Bearing this in mind, I never accused the girl of any illicit relationship nor of travelling without a mahram, but said if this was the case then if she adheres to these beautiful ahkaam in our deen it will better protect her from the plots of these dogs of the world.

2. The way some sisters have been speaking is indicative of the growing trend, especially in the West; that of Feminism: So many sisters become incredibly irrate at being told about the responsibilities of the woman, lowering the gaze, needing a mahram when travelling, a man having four wives without the permission of any of them, two female witnesses being needed but only one male witness in court and so on. This to them feels as an insult upon the woman and this is also the case with many western Muslimahs and even kuffaar women when discussing the issue of rape.

But our deen commands that we live our lives in submission to Allaah, in obeying Allaah and his messenger [saws] and putting our own personal opinions after the Qur'an and Sunnah. We dont use our own logic to assess something but use the Qur'an and Sunnah as was mentioned by Ali [ra] in a saheeh narration: "Deen is not based on ra'y [opinion/interpretation/logic], if it was then Rasulullaah [saws] would have commanded us to wipe under the sock [as it would be the dirty part] when doing the wiping, but he commanded us to wipe over it". This shows that sometimes things may conflict with our logic but if they are based on clear aayahs and ahaadeeth, no emotion or logic can supercede it. So please fellow Muslims dont let our own reasoning/emotional thinking be a barrier from us practising Islaam correctly.

3. As for the role of the woman in general. She is commanded in the Qur'an and the Sunnah to do the following:

- Not to leave the home excessively and without reason. This is to prevent her from the eyes of the people of fitnah. She seeks the permission of parents, or of the husband of intent to do something or go somewhere in order that people responsible over her are aware of her plans and so on.

- To cover modestly [for both men and women]: for a number of reasons, to not attract the opposite sex, to not be a means of dishonour by anyone treating her in a promiscuous way, to give a clear message to all strange men that she is a respected and honoured Muslimah, who wants no illicit contact with them.

- To travel long distances or in strange locations with a guardian in order to be safe to the best of her ability and to be protected as much as possible from the evildoers of the world.

4. The woman is honoured, respected, exalted in the eyes of Allaah, the Prophet [saws] and the Mu'minoon, her chastity is preserved with fists and swords against the evildoers - subhanAllaah do we remember the incident in the time of Caliph Mu'tasim when a Jew tied a Muslimahs niqaab to a post while she was unaware? The niqaab fell and she was exposed, she called out "Yaa Mu'tasim" and when news came to him of it he sent an army to deal with the case! These rulings are in place to protect her and as a sanctity to her modesty.

5. The sin is according to its level: The man who is guilty of rape bears the punishment of it - to be killed. The person who is negligent in anything, he is negligent for it to the extent of his bad action. If a man swears once, he is guilty of one swear, if he is guilty of striking a blow, he is punished according to one blow. Similarly if any sister is guilty of not abiding by sharee'ah for any particular issue, then she is guilty of that VERY SAME ISSUE. Not for anything else that was done to her that she did not intend or act for.

So this is my stance until I die. That a person is guilty of their own sins. They are guilty of what they are negligible in and not in what others do to them. This is the meaning of the aayah: "No person bears the load of another" - If a son becomes a drug dealer we cannot blame the father for the drugs the son sells, if the father doesnt do it too, but if the father didnt raise the son based on Islamic methods, the father is blameworthy for his negligence of the son's upbringing. Similarly, if a sister is raped, she in not blamed for the rape ie "you did this and that so you deserve to be raped" etc this is a vile and judgemental statement to make, but if she failed to apply the shar'i rulings regarding covering and public relations, then she is blameworthy for what she sinned in.

May Allaah make us fair, honest, balanced, reasonable, patient and may Allaah allow us to comprehend and understand his blessed way so that we may be of the Muttaqun in high stations in this world and the hereafter ameen.
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h-n
09-20-2010, 08:19 PM
May Allah punish these Males severely, also if the girl was in a relationship Allah does NOT punish the girl by allowing her to be raped and killed, rather that they allow themselves to hang around in the bad crowd, and of course if you seek not Allah but others then why should Allah protect you. Allah is All-Wise and will judge all Justly on the Day of Judgement, if she enters Paradise and Hell.

Also one thing good has been shown that MEN (if some Women were present don't know) DID COME TOGETHER, to PROTEST until something was done. May Allah reward them MUCH!
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cat eyes
09-20-2010, 08:21 PM
yes it is quite sad indeed im quite angry actually all this happened in the holy land. i hope this rapist receives a harsh punishment to show all those animals we wont tolerate any crimes here.
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