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abdussattar
09-19-2010, 03:51 PM
Okay so the most surprising thing I find about Hinduism is the Ganesha festival...

You make an Idol with your own hands, worship it, then throw it in the river, and even throw footwear on it??

Okay I can understand that you have to worship it for only some days, and then throw it away....

But Why do you throw footwear on it and kick it? how can you throw footwear on a God ? how can you KICK A GOD?? thats just a sign of plain... disrespect...


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Charzhino
09-19-2010, 05:44 PM
I was not aware of this type of festival, maybe its a cultural thing, unless it says specifically to perform the ritual in a Hindu scripture. And also, you can never disprect a being which is perfect no matter what you do. You only end up disrespecting of your own self, not God.
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bhakti
09-19-2010, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by abdussattar
Okay so the most surprising thing I find about Hinduism is the Ganesha festival...

You make an Idol with your own hands, worship it, then throw it in the river, and even throw footwear on it??

Okay I can understand that you have to worship it for only some days, and then throw it away....

But Why do you throw footwear on it and kick it? how can you throw footwear on a God ? how can you KICK A GOD?? thats just a sign of plain... disrespect...
thats certainly funny...wonder where you heard that story man! got a link?
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abdussattar
09-20-2010, 01:53 AM
Hmm I see it every year here in Hyderabad... :(
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bhakti
09-20-2010, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by abdussattar
Hmm I see it every year here in Hyderabad... :(
what...no way! If there was something like that and if its as widespread as you claim the news would have made it to the mainstream media and would have been all over the internet. Could be a stray incident or some dude from another opposing faction or something trying to create mischief.
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'Aleena
09-20-2010, 05:13 AM
Originally Posted by abdussattar
Why do you throw footwear on it and kick it? how can you throw footwear on a God ? how can you KICK A GOD?? thats just a sign of plain... disrespect...
Assalamu alaikum,
erm... brother to be honest i have never seen this... atleast not in Mumbai.

I dont know about its origin but it was popularized by Lokmanya Tilak to strenthen the freedom movement.

Originally Posted by abdussattar
You make an Idol with your own hands, worship it, then throw it in the river
I wud love to know the reason/logic behind this. Any answers?
Reply

tango92
09-20-2010, 05:37 AM
Originally Posted by Charzhino
I was not aware of this type of festival, maybe its a cultural thing, unless it says specifically to perform the ritual in a Hindu scripture. And also, you can never disprect a being which is perfect no matter what you do. You only end up disrespecting of your own self, not God.
i wasnt aware humans could sculpt perfect beings with with their own hands. unless you mean to say humans are perfect themselves?
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Predator
09-20-2010, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
what...no way! If there was something like that and if its as widespread as you claim the news would have made it to the mainstream media and would have been all over the internet. Could be a stray incident or some dude from another opposing faction or something trying to create mischief.


Err .. wake up . It is spread all over the internet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohgc8Go9gIE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQ4CYt_rqA

This is pathetic .What a waste of money which could have been better spent in charity . No wonder ,these statues will be fuel for hellfire as stones and stubborn unbelievers make the fuel of Hell as God says:


“…then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 2:24)

“Indeed, you (disbelievers) and what you worship other than God are the firewood of Hell. You will be coming to (enter) it. Had these (false deities) been (actual) gods, they would not have come to it, but all are eternal therein.” (Quran 21:98-99)
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abdussattar
09-20-2010, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
what...no way! If there was something like that and if its as widespread as you claim the news would have made it to the mainstream media and would have been all over the internet. Could be a stray incident or some dude from another opposing faction or something trying to create mischief.
Are you An Indian? :X
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Charzhino
09-20-2010, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
i wasnt aware humans could sculpt perfect beings with with their own hands. unless you mean to say humans are perfect themselves?
The icons/avatars (Ishvar) are representations of a formless God, used to aid worship. A finite mind cannot know something which is infinite.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-20-2010, 06:27 PM
I'll try to get some pictures. They do all that crazy things.
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tango92
09-20-2010, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Charzhino
The icons/avatars (Ishvar) are representations of a formless God, used to aid worship.
cool a contradiction already and were not even into the depts of your theology.....

A finite mind cannot know something which is infinite
agreed.. on the original point do you not accept kicking an idol to be disrespect? clearly it is (even if it is only disrespect aginst yourself), i bet you wouldnt like it if i kicked you?...
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Danah
09-20-2010, 06:56 PM
All what I can say is Alhumdulilah for the grace of Islam.

But seriously thought, how do you feel when you see your gods broken like that, covered with dirt and thrown in the river and can't even remove the dirt from their own faces?? Do you still have any respect for them? or how it works with you?
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-20-2010, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Danah
But seriously thought, how do you feel when you see your gods broken like that, covered with dirt and thrown in the river and can't even remove the dirt from their own faces?? Do you still have any respect for them? or how it works with you?
That is part of their faith.

While you are riding or driving through the roads where these ganeshs are placed you have to be very careful, your one wrong move or one wrong comment would cost you your life. they may beat you to death. So I wear a smile (fake smile) as if my heart is filled with communal harmony and have respect towards their faith. ;D I did this today as there was a traffic jam and a Hindu was controlling the traffic and he was scary and I thought if I do something stupid he'll beat me and I'll not be able to reach my home.

The same applies when some 'muslims' celebrate 'urs' (dargah thing) and Shia celebrate 'alam' during muharram.
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Charzhino
09-20-2010, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
cool a contradiction already and were not even into the depts of your theology.....
Its no contradiction, only your lack of education in Adviata Vedenta theology.

agreed.. on the original point do you not accept kicking an idol to be disrespect? clearly it is (even if it is only disrespect aginst yourself), i bet you wouldnt like it if i kicked you?...
I dont know about the details of the festival, I woud suspect its largly cultural, but I would consider it disrespect yes.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 02:57 AM
lol...you guys really have no idea do you?

of course I know of Ganesh chaturthi....but the OP was talking about beating the idol with footwear...which is clearly retarded!

I think the whole problem comes from a basic difference in theology. You guys think you are actually praying to Allah directly and that by doing so Allah is going to get happy so you can notch up a lot of points which you can redeem later for a ticket to paradise.

The Hindu belief however, is that God doesn't need to get happy by his devotees doing something. He is the very essence of happiness itself. When a devotee is praying he is practicing bhakti yoga which results in a communion between the joy of the devotee's soul and the supreme unaffected happiness. As such, the IDOL IS NOT GOD! But something you can pray to so you can tap into your inner divinity. How hard is this to understand?

Please look at my earlier post in another thread for my views on idol worship. I believe idol worship is beautiful and puts joy in your heart, a smile on your face and a song on your lips rather than grim and serious worship. http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1356303

As for the problem of pollution due to dumping of idols, that is purely a social problem that certainly needs to be addressed. Every theology has some social ramifications or the other that are undesirable. But there's nothing that cannot be solved by educating people about environmental damage, eco-ganeshas etc.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 03:08 AM
Another thing I cant comprehend is why you guys are so obsessed with "logic of worship". Seriously, get over it guys! Worship is personal. Every man chooses to do it his way. The Ganesh Chaturthi festivals are awesome fun! When you can mix happiness with worship, enjoy worshiping and have so much fun while at the same time engage in prayer, what's so bad about that?

If you really want to talk about logic, then we need to talk about the higher echelons of philosophy in Hinduism that is contained in the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. Searching for logic in how common people pray and worship is just retarded.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by Airforce
This is pathetic .What a waste of money which could have been better spent in charity . No wonder ,these statues will be fuel for hellfire as stones and stubborn unbelievers make the fuel of Hell as God says:


“…then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.” (Quran 2:24)

“Indeed, you (disbelievers) and what you worship other than God are the firewood of Hell. You will be coming to (enter) it. Had these (false deities) been (actual) gods, they would not have come to it, but all are eternal therein.” (Quran 21:98-99)
You really believe I'm going to eternal hell coz I was born into a Hindu family? And you are going to paradise coz you were born muslim? So if I was, by chance, born into a muslim family then that would change my destiny right? Who decides who's being born where and in what family and why? Who decides what faith a guy is going to follow in his life? You don't believe in reincarnation and Karma right? So what's the criteria to decide who's gonna be muslim or non-muslims? Or in other words, who's goin to paradise and who's goin to burn in an eternal hell?
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Insecured soul
09-21-2010, 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
IDOL IS NOT GOD!
We always say that
Originally Posted by bhakti
I think the whole problem comes from a basic difference in theology. You guys think you are actually praying to Allah directly and that by doing so Allah is going to get happy so you can notch up a lot of points which you can redeem later for a ticket to paradise.
He doesnt need our prayer to be happy, its we who need him

Originally Posted by bhakti
Another thing I cant comprehend is why you guys are so obsessed with "logic of worship". Seriously, get over it guys! Worship is personal. Every man chooses to do it his way. The Ganesh Chaturthi festivals are awesome fun! When you can mix happiness with worship, enjoy worshiping and have so much fun while at the same time engage in prayer, what's so bad about that?
May be fun to you, but it causes a lot of problem to those who are going to work and find traffic jams, so much of noise.
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Insecured soul
09-21-2010, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
You really believe I'm going to eternal hell coz I was born into a Hindu family? And you are going to paradise coz you were born muslim? So if I was, by chance, born into a muslim family then that would change my destiny right? Who decides who's being born where and in what family and why? Who decides what faith a guy is going to follow in his life? You don't believe in reincarnation and Karma right? So what's the criteria to decide who's gonna be muslim or non-muslims? Or in other words, who's goin to paradise and who's goin to burn in an eternal hell?
A person will definately go and burn in hell eternally if they dont worship allah azzawajal

you are missing the point, the issue is not about where a person is born, its about how a person dies, if he dies in faith (being muslim) he will be pardoned but if he rejects faith then he is accountable
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
You guys think you are actually praying to Allah directly and that by doing so Allah is going to get happy so you can notch up a lot of points which you can redeem later for a ticket to paradise.
This is a blasphemy against Allah.
Please provide evidence of your accusation, otherwise I will report you for breaking the forum rules.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
This is a blasphemy against Allah.
Please provide evidence of your accusation, otherwise I will report you for breaking the forum rules.
Im sorry....but I have to meet blasphemy with blasphemy. Besides, since Allah provides paradise to those that pray to him, does it not mean the same stuff as what as I said?

Originally Posted by Insecured soul
A person will definately go and burn in hell eternally if they dont worship allah azzawajal you are missing the point, the issue is not about where a person is born, its about how a person dies, if he dies in faith (being muslim) he will be pardoned but if he rejects faith then he is accountable
look...almost 95% of those that are born to a certain faith die in the same faith. It is only a small minority that convert etc. So if I'm born a muslim there's 95% chance that I'll die a muslim. If I'm born non-muslims there's 95% chance I'll die non muslim. There are also many that sadly die at a young age and dont even get a chance to convert.

So whats your point?

Originally Posted by Insecured soul
May be fun to you, but it causes a lot of problem to those who are going to work and find traffic jams, so much of noise.
Are you saying large crowds of muslims around mosques and coming and going to mosques during prayer time doesnt cause the same? Besides traffic is a recent thing. Worship is on for several millennia. So its traffic thats coming in the way of celebration and not vice versa.

Originally Posted by Insecured soul
He doesnt need our prayer to be happy, its we who need him
"And I have not created the Jinn and man but that they worship Me" Holy Quran 51:57

The entire cause of creation is to satisfy Allah's NEED to be worshiped.
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 05:04 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Im sorry....but I have to meet blasphemy with blasphemy. Besides, since Allah provides paradise to those that pray to him, does it not mean the same stuff as what as I said?
I have to say that your logical/reasoning skills is awful.
is that from years of worshipping stone statues?
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-21-2010, 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
"And I have not created the Jinn and man but that they worship Me" Holy Quran 51:57

The entire cause of creation is to satisfy Allah's NEED to be worshiped.
^ Again you are taking my Lord's name in vain.
Originally Posted by bhakti
"And I have not created the Jinn and man but that they worship Me" Holy Quran 51:57
Where did you get this from? Did you actually read the Quran? If yes I'd pity your comprehension.

P.S. the verse number is not 57 it is 56, 51:56, Surah Al-Dhariyat
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
"And I have not created the Jinn and man but that they worship Me" Holy Quran 51:57

The entire cause of creation is to satisfy Allah's NEED to be worshiped.
and does it say in the verse that Allah needs human and djinn to worship Him?

Think again.
your logical ability is extremely weak
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
and does it say in the verse that Allah needs human and djinn to worship Him?

Think again.
your logical ability is extremely weak
Im really really sorry if you think I've hurt you or anyone here. I'm only defending some of the nonsense posted here on hinduism that people obviously have no idea about. In the process I may have pained you for which I honestly ask for forgiveness from the depths of my heart. But you too must realize the same when you belittle someone else without even making a token effort to try and understand the underlying philosophy of at all.

And btw, please let me know what your interpretation of the verse is. I would love to know.
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
The Ganesh Chaturthi festivals are awesome fun! When you can mix happiness with worship, enjoy worshiping and have so much fun while at the same time engage in prayer, what's so bad about that?
I have heard that some of the mandals extort money from people. If you refuse to donate them they will physically abuse you. I see no fun in it.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid
That is part of their faith.

While you are riding or driving through the roads where these ganeshs are placed you have to be very careful, your one wrong move or one wrong comment would cost you your life. they may beat you to death. So I wear a smile (fake smile) as if my heart is filled with communal harmony and have respect towards their faith. ;D I did this today as there was a traffic jam and a Hindu was controlling the traffic and he was scary and I thought if I do something stupid he'll beat me and I'll not be able to reach my home.

The same applies when some 'muslims' celebrate 'urs' (dargah thing) and Shia celebrate 'alam' during muharram.
I would like it if you pondered over what you said a little deeply. If you had good will for the people celebrating, you would have had no cause to fear. If you really respected their faith, why would you fear them?

Isn't your fear a manifestation of the filth in your own heart and your own hypocrisy?
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-21-2010, 06:38 AM
But what's the point of placing 10' ganesh idols on roads? Some are even yards away from each other which will certainly obstruct the flow of traffic.
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
If you had good will for the people celebrating, you would have had no cause to fear.
Good will, Huh?
some of the mandals are to ignorant to stop the music while passing a mosque when they know that muslims are offering namaz. Few even yell at you if u confront them.
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by Abu Ya7ya
Masaajids are covered with thick clothes from outside to prevent it from the stones they pelt at it just for fun? They are always asking for trouble. That's not how you celebrate your festivals and cause fear. The masjid in the neighborhood here is always covered in these days, but at the end... you still see the one or two window glasses broken
What!!! why dont people complain to the police ? throwing stones at masjids is so humiliating and should not be tolerated:raging:
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-21-2010, 07:26 AM
The police wont do anything. It is painful to know that the commissioner of Police and Member of parliament of Hyderabad being Muslims don't take necessary steps to safeguard guard Muslims. In recent riots in Hyderabad two Muslim girls who were returning to their home after school in an auto rickshaw were pulled out by HINDU terrorists and were killed. They were butchered. The media didn't show this news many people are unaware of it.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 07:52 AM
oh come on guys....maids are overworked and tortured in Saudi Arabia during the month of Ramadan...maybe we need to ban Ramadan?

What about the recent rape cases in Mecca? What about all the deaths in stampedes during Haj?

In a nation of billions there are bound to be a few miscreants. If you want to start nitpicking...there's no end to it....

There definitely are many religious clashes in India. But then, there's definitely more religious freedom in India than in all the Islamic countries. Surely you would accept that?
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
But then, there's definitely more religious freedom in India than in all the Islamic countries.
If u had used democratic countries instead of islamic countries than may be i wud have agreed.

If by freedom u mean u are allowed to do things which are forbidden by islam then i wud be more than happy to give away my frredom.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-21-2010, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
oh come on guys....maids are overworked and tortured in Saudi Arabia during the month of Ramadan...maybe we need to ban Ramadan?
They don't torture or make them over-work (if they did) in the name of Ramadan!

Originally Posted by bhakti
What about all the deaths in stampedes during Haj?
Those are causalities. No one deliberately incites stampede. Even though people don't stop going to the Hajj.

Dont be such narrow minded.
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aadil77
09-21-2010, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
look...almost 95% of those that are born to a certain faith die in the same faith. It is only a small minority that convert etc. So if I'm born a muslim there's 95% chance that I'll die a muslim. If I'm born non-muslims there's 95% chance I'll die non muslim. There are also many that sadly die at a young age and dont even get a chance to convert.
People who die at a young age will be judged accordingly, kids who die in a state of innocence will enter paradise

Actually your figures are incorrect, 50% of hindus and sikhs that I know have now become atheists/agnostic and they openly mock their own religion. I know many christians who have become atheists/agnostic. Only backwards people stick to their faith because of family, these type of family loyalties are becoming less and less common, people are moving forward and are willing to look around and question before accepting a religion just because of family.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid
They don't torture or make them over-work (if they did) in the name of Ramadan!

Those are causalities. No one deliberately incites stampede. Even though people don't stop going to the Hajj.

Dont be such narrow minded.
Obviously its not done in the name of religion. I'm saying these are the fallouts of having huge festivals. Does that mean having the festival itself is a bad thing?

If you want to point out stuff done in the name of religion...there definitely are very many terrorist strikes that happen in the name of Islam. But what good would listing all of that here do?
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-21-2010, 08:21 AM
^ but those do that (throw stones on mosques and always look for trouble) represent a religion and actively participate in such rituals and parade.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid
^ but those do that (throw stones on mosques and always look for trouble) represent a religion and actively participate in such rituals and parade.
look...this year's Ganesh Chaturthi was very very peaceful except for one or two stray incidents. Muslims and Hindus live largely in peace throughout India. Period.

Compare it to Islamic nations such as Bangladesh and Pakistan where large scale oppression of minorities and vandalism of Hindu temples etc. happens and you will thank your stars that you are living in India.

There are a few Hindus in India who still hold grudges against Muslims coz the sub-continent is essentially Hindu land that was overrun my Islamic invaders. They still hold grudges for all the demolition of over 3000 temples and large scale genocides that happened during the Islamic invasion which is the reason for antagonism. It will take time for these wounds to heal and one can only pray that happens fast.
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
People who die at a young age will be judged accordingly
How? Based on what? Does the Quran mention this?

Originally Posted by aadil77
Actually your figures are incorrect, 50% of hindus and sikhs that I know have now become atheists/agnostic and they openly mock their own religion. I know many christians who have become atheists/agnostic.
Nonsense. Here in India queues at temples are getting longer by the day and new temples are mushrooming everywhere. Spiritual discourses are attracting bigger crowds and many are affluent and well-to-do people. Hindus are beginning to discover their rich spiritual heritage in big numbers.

Originally Posted by aadil77
Only backwards people stick to their faith because of family,
So if backwards people stick to their faith, who decides who and why is born in 'backward' and conservative families for whom it is tougher to leave their faith? Do they go to hell coz they are in 'backward' families?

Originally Posted by aadil77
these type of family loyalties are becoming less and less common, people are moving forward and are willing to look around and question before accepting a religion just because of family.
Since they are getting less and less common these days, what about the days when family loyalties were more common? Do people goto hell coz they were born in times when family loyalties were more common?
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bhakti
09-21-2010, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by k.aleena
If by freedom u mean u are allowed to do things which are forbidden by islam then i wud be more than happy to give away my frredom.
which is exactly the point. If I said mosques, ramadan, burqas etc is not allowed in Hinduism and therefore you are not supposed do all that in India, how would that feel?
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
happens and you will thank your stars that you are living in India.
I do thank Allah (swt) for that.
Bhakti we are not against Hindus in general (except those who hate us).
Most of my friends are hindus and they are all really nice. They respect me and my religion.
As i pointed out to u in one of the threads that u have closed ur mind. U have some very strong conviction about the concept of God and worship.
U are not going to benefit from this forum unless u shed away that attitude which i think is not possible for u(except if Allah wishes).
If u r here to promote that every one should live in peace and harmony than we do agree wid u. But if u suggest that for attaining harmony we need to compromise on our religion then we disagree.
Islam does promote religious tolerance without compromising on its teaching.

Salam.
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'Aleena
09-21-2010, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
If I said mosques, ramadan, burqas etc is not allowed in Hinduism and therefore you are not supposed do all that in India, how would that feel?
That is the reason i consider India best among democratic nations.
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
And btw, please let me know what your interpretation of the verse is. I would love to know.
“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have created them so that I may command them to worship Me, not because I have any need of them. ‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (alone)” willingly or unwillingly. This is the view favoured by Ibn Jareer. Ibn Jurayj said: i.e., except that they should know Me. Al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said: “Except that they should worship Me”, i.e., for the purpose of worship. End quote.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 4/239

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah, may He be exalted, created mankind to worship Him and to know Him by His names and attributes, and to enjoin that upon them. Whoever submits to Him and does what is enjoined upon him will be one of those who are successful, but whoever turns away from that, they are the losers. He will inevitably gather them together in the Hereafter where He will reward or punish them for what He commanded and forbade them to do
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Ramadhan
09-21-2010, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
you will thank your stars that you are living in India.
I find it interesting that as a hindu you'd rather thank the stars than those whom you consider as your god, ie. shiva, vishnu, brahma, etc etc.
Shouldnt you worship stars then?
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abdussattar
09-21-2010, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
The entire cause of creation is to satisfy Allah's NEED to be worshiped
Read the post in my signature....
Reply

abdussattar
09-21-2010, 11:04 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
look...almost 95% of those that are born to a certain faith die in the same faith. It is only a small minority that convert etc. So if I'm born a muslim there's 95% chance that I'll die a muslim. If I'm born non-muslims there's 95% chance I'll die non muslim. There are also many that sadly die at a young age and dont even get a chance to convert.


Read this article :-


Is Islam a Birthright?

But, first, think for a while: What does the word ‘Muslim’, which we all use so often,
really mean? Can a person a Muslim simply because he is the son or grandson of a
Muslim? Is a Muslim born a Muslim just as a Hindu Brahman’s son is a Brahman, or an
Englishman’s son is born an Englishman, or a white man’s son is born a white man, or
a Negro’s son is born a Negro? Are ‘Muslims’ a race, a nationality or a caste? Do
Muslims belong to the Muslim Ummah like Aryans belong to the Aryan race? And, just
as a Japanese is a Japanese because he is born in Japan, is a Muslim similarly a
Muslim by being born in a Muslim country?

Your answer to these questions will surely be: No. A Muslim does not become truly a
Muslim simply because he is born a Muslim. A Muslim is not a Muslim because he
belongs to any particular race; he is a Muslim because he follows Islam. If he
renounces Islam, he ceases to be a Muslim. Any person, whether a Brahman or a
Rajput, an Englishman or a Japanese, a white or a black, will, on accepting Islam,
become a full member of the Muslim community; while a person born in a Muslim
home may be expelled from the Muslim community if he gives up following Islam,
even though he may be a descendant of the prophet, an Arab or Pathan.

Such will surely be your answer to my question. This establishes that the greatest gift
of Allah which you enjoy-that of being a Muslim-is not something automatically
inherited from your parents, which remains yours for life by right irrespective of your
attitudes and behaviour. It is a gift which you must continually strive to deserve if you
want to retain it; if you are indifferent to it, it may be taken away from you, God
forbid.
Reply

abdussattar
09-21-2010, 11:09 AM
Originally Posted by k.aleena
If by freedom u mean u are allowed to do things which are forbidden by islam then i wud be more than happy to give away my frredom.
Originally Posted by bhakti
which is exactly the point. If I said mosques, ramadan, burqas etc is not allowed in Hinduism and therefore you are not supposed do all that in India, how would that feel?
It wold not feel bad if you removed the SECULAR word from the indian constitutions and replaced it with HINDU.

Why do you think India is great?
Reply

abdussattar
09-21-2010, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
What about all the deaths in stampedes during Haj?

Ofcourse , the stampedes were not intentional, while the stoning was.... (or it wasnt?)
Reply

GreyKode
09-21-2010, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by abdussattar

Okay, go on and ban hajj if :-

1) The Stampedes were intentional.
2) The stoning was unintentional.
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters in Islam and to our dear guest bhakti,

I do this for the sake of ALLAH(swt) and justice.
I'm an old member of this forum probably no one remebers me or even cares :), I don't participate much as I got very busy lately although I love to pass by this beloved forum from now to then. I came past this thread and I followed the conversation as it progressed. I urge my borthers and sisters to respect our dear guest bhakti as he is a respectful individual and from his previous threads he has proved to be a very sane and right-minded person. I respect all the member's views but let's try not to offend each other's faith, what bhakti says regarding the rationale of the practices in his religion should be accepted as he has the right to represent his religion, we as muslims should take things on face value and not search for intentions.

Maybe he can offer an apology for his statements that offended the members and we can reciprocate back. Then the conversation can continue.

Wama tawfiqi illa billah.
Reply

Charzhino
09-21-2010, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56]

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have created them so that I may command them to worship Me, not because I have any need of them. ‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (alone)” willingly or unwillingly. This is the view favoured by Ibn Jareer. Ibn Jurayj said: i.e., except that they should know Me. Al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said: “Except that they should worship Me”, i.e., for the purpose of worship. End quote.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 4/239

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

Allaah, may He be exalted, created mankind to worship Him and to know Him by His names and attributes, and to enjoin that upon them. Whoever submits to Him and does what is enjoined upon him will be one of those who are successful, but whoever turns away from that, they are the losers. He will inevitably gather them together in the Hereafter where He will reward or punish them for what He commanded and forbade them to do
So Allah created us for his creation to worship him. Doesnt that sound egotisical? Also, since Allah knows where a person will end up even before he is born, Allah is essentially creating someone to go to hell or heaven.
Reply

Insecured soul
09-22-2010, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
look...almost 95% of those that are born to a certain faith die in the same faith. It is only a small minority that convert etc. So if I'm born a muslim there's 95% chance that I'll die a muslim. If I'm born non-muslims there's 95% chance I'll die non muslim. There are also many that sadly die at a young age and dont even get a chance to convert.

So whats your point?
The point is .. the sahaba who reverted to islam werent born of the muslim family they were christian, jews or idol worhsippers, but they accepted the faith when the truth was presented to them and some rejected it like you are rejecting now and like we say it everytime you will be accoutable on the day of judgement.

Originally Posted by bhakti
Are you saying large crowds of muslims around mosques and coming and going to mosques during prayer time doesnt cause the same? Besides traffic is a recent thing. Worship is on for several millennia. So its traffic thats coming in the way of celebration and not vice versa
common now buddy, who is having problems with large crowd of muslim going and coming to mosque????, there are hardly few muslim pray salaat now

and believe me iv travelled all over india and i havent seen anyone non muslim having problem with a muslim who is "going and coming" to mosque

on the other hand u people do traffic jam and yesterday i saw a man on truck on which they had ganpati, he was dancing and was so drunk that he didnt know what he was doing,, IS THAT HOW you worship?
Originally Posted by bhakti
"And I have not created the Jinn and man but that they worship Me" Holy Quran 51:57

The entire cause of creation is to satisfy Allah's NEED to be worshiped.



AGAIN he doesnt need anything, he created us out of nothingness with a purpose of US serving and worshipping, infact i should be happy he gave us a purpose to worship him and every muslim is proud that he worship the real almighty god
Reply

Insecured soul
09-22-2010, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I find it interesting that as a hindu you'd rather thank the stars than those whom you consider as your god, ie. shiva, vishnu, brahma, etc etc.
Shouldnt you worship stars then?
This is common with idol worshippers, they can make anything into god, because they worship the created things (stars, humans, idols and the list goes on) except worshiping the creator
Reply

Ramadhan
09-22-2010, 02:52 AM
Originally Posted by Charzhino
So Allah created us for his creation to worship him. Doesnt that sound egotisical?
I am posting the thread that is also currently happening in the general section, where I think brother muhammad explains the issue much better than I:
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...-slaves-2.html

Assalaamu Alaykum,

We are all slaves of Allaah (swt) because He created us and to Him is our return. But Allaah (swt) has given us the freedom to make choices in this short life, to test us whether we will be obedient slaves or disobedient ones. And we have been told the consequences of each choice.

Quote Originally Posted by LauraS

The word "slave" really bothers me. Is is believed that we were only created to worship Allah? I read in another thread that we were created to look after the world sort of thing. Because otherwise it's just like we were created specifically to worship Him, but we're not allowed to question why, just to accept it's God's will and that He is perfect because He tells us so. :/

It is indeed true that we were only created to worship Allaah (swt). Allaah (swt) did not place us on earth for play and amusement, rather we are all heading for our true home in the afterlife. But it should be noted that worship is not restricted to praying in a mosque. Actions like looking after the world - looking after other people and even animals and plants are all forms of worship of Allaah (swt). Worship in Islam is a very broad concept and includes any action that Allaah (swt) loves, and staying away from whatever He dislikes. Allaah (swt) has given us responsibilities in this life such as looking after each other, especially being kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the poor etc. so fulfilment of all this is a very important form of worship. Even actions of the heart like loving, fearing, being patient and having trust in Allaah (swt) are forms of worship and are in fact what much of the Qur'an emphasises. Thus, many ordinary actions can actually become acts of worship based upon one's intention for doing them.


Also, since Allah knows where a person will end up even before he is born, Allah is essentially creating someone to go to hell or heaven.
This from Islamqa answer best your question:

A questioner is asking: Why did Allaah create mankind when He knows what their destiny will be, in Paradise or Hell?
I have a question which I hope you will answer, may Allaah reward you with good.
If Allaah knows the unseen, and He knows what people will do, and He knows who will go to Hell or to Paradise – because the knowledge of Allaah precedes all things – then why did He create us? Why did Allaah send Iblees down to earth with Adam and Hawwa’, when He knew that repentance would not benefit him and He had already decreed that he will go to Hell?.

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Knowledge of the purpose for which Allaah created mankind may answer many questions that the atheists raise in order to confuse people, and by which some Muslims may be influenced. These issues include the idea that Allaah created mankind in order to put some of them in Paradise and the others in Hell! This is a mistaken notion. It is not for this purpose that Allaah created mankind and brought them into being.

The brother who asked this question – and whoever wants to know the truth – should realize that the purpose behind the creation of man and the creation of heaven and earth, is that Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, may be known and that His Oneness (Tawheed) may be affirmed and that He may be obeyed.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

i.e., I have only created them so that I might command them to worship Me, not because I am in need of them.

‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: “except that they should worship Me (Alone)” means: except that they should affirm their servitude to Me, willingly or unwillingly.

This was the view favoured by Ibn Jareer.

Tafseer Ibn Katheer (4/239).

Many people are confused about what is wanted from the slaves of Allaah, which is adhering to His religion which He has chosen for them, and what is wanted for them, which is rewarding the obedient and punishing the disobedient. This is part of Allaah’s decree which will never be altered or changed.

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

As for the truth which is the purpose for which He created them – i.e., the heavens and the earth and everything in between them – it is a twofold aim: what is wanted from His slaves and what is wanted for them.

What He wants from them: is that they should know Allaah and the attributes of His perfection, may He be glorified and exalted, and they should worship Him alone and not associate anything with Him, so He alone will be their God, the One Whom they worship and obey and love. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is Allaah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven). His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allaah has power over all things, and that Allaah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge”

[al-Talaaq 65:12].

He told us that he created the universe so that His slaves might know the perfection of His power, the all-encompassing nature of His knowledge, which requires knowing Him and His names and attributes, and affirming His oneness.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And I (Allaah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone)”

[al-Dhaariyaat 51:56].

This purpose is what is wanted from His slaves, which is that they should know their Lord and worship Him alone.

As for what is wanted for them, it is recompense on the basis of justice and divine grace, reward and punishment. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And to Allaah belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth, that He may requite those who do evil with that which they have done (i.e. punish them in Hell), and reward those who do good, with what is best (i.e. Paradise)”

[al-Najm 5 :31]

“Verily, the Hour is coming __ and I am almost hiding it __that every person may be rewarded for that which he strives”

[Ta-Ha 20:15]

“In order that He may make manifest to them the truth of that wherein they differ, and that those who disbelieved (in Resurrection, and in the Oneness of Allaah) may know that they were liars”

[al-Nahl 16:39]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawâ) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His Leave. That is Allaah, your Lord; so worship Him (Alone). Then, will you not remember? 4. To Him is the return of all of you. The Promise of Allaah is true. It is He Who begins the creation and then will repeat it, that He may reward with justice those who believed and did deeds of righteousness. But those who disbelieved will have a drink of boiling fluids and painful torment because they used to disbelieve”

[Yoonus 10:3, 4].

Badaa’i’ al-Fawaa’id (4/971).

For more information on the wisdom behind the creation of mankind, please see the answer to question no. 45529.

Secondly:

Allaah does not admit people to Paradise or Hell simply because He knows that they deserve that, rather He will admit them to Paradise or Hell on the basis of the deeds that they actually did in this world. If Allaah created mankind and put them in His Hell, they would soon argue that He did not test them or give them the chance to strive. Allaah wanted to refute this argument, so He created them in this world and gave them reason, and revealed His Books, and sent His Messengers; all of that is so that they will have no argument against Allaah on the Day of Resurrection.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Messengers as bearers of good news as well as of warning in order that mankind should have no plea against Allaah after the (coming of) Messengers. And Allaah is Ever All‑Powerful, All‑Wise”

[al-Nisa’ 4:165].

Shaykh Muhammad al-Ameen al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In this aayah it clearly states that it is essential to leave no excuse for anyone, by sending the Messengers who give glad tidings of Paradise to those who obey them and give warning of Hell to those who disobey them.

This excuse is completely ruled out here by the sending of the Messengers with glad tidings and warnings, as is stated at the end of Soorah Ta-Ha where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And if We had destroyed them with a torment before this (i.e. Messenger Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم and the Qur’aan), they would surely, have said: ‘Our Lord! If only You had sent us a Messenger, we should certainly have followed Your Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), before we were humiliated and disgraced’” [Ta-Ha 20:134].

It is also referred to in Soorah al-Qasas where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if (We had) not (sent you to the people of Makkah) __ in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they would have said: ‘Our Lord! Why did You not send us a Messenger? We would then have followed Your Ayaat (Verses of the Qur’aan) and would have been among the believers’”

[al-Qasas 28:47].

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“This is because your Lord would not destroy the (populations of) towns for their wrongdoing (i.e. associating others in worship along with Allaah) while their people were unaware (so the Messengers were sent)”

[al-An’aam 6:131]

“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) making (things) clear unto you, after a break in (the series of) Messengers, lest you say: ‘There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner.’ But now has come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner”

[al-Maa’idah 5:19]

“And this is a blessed Book (the Qur’aan) which We have sent down, so follow it and fear Allaah (i.e. do not disobey His Orders), that you may receive mercy (i.e. saved from the torment of Hell).

156. Lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “The Book was sent down only to two sects before us (the Jews and the Christians), and for our part, we were in fact unaware of what they studied.”

157. Or lest you (pagan Arabs) should say: “If only the Book had been sent down to us, we would surely, have been better guided than they (Jews and Christians).” So now has come unto you a clear proof (the Qur’aan) from your Lord, and a guidance and a mercy”

[al-An’aam 6:155-157]

And there are other similar verses.

It is clear from these and other aayahs of the Qur’aan that Allaah does not punish anyone except after warning and leaving no excuse on the lips of the Messengers (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon them). Allaah clearly states in many aayahs that he does not admit anyone to Hell except after leaving no excuse and warning on the lips of the Messengers, for example He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Every time a group is cast therein, its keeper will ask: ‘Did no warner come to you?’

9. They will say: ‘Yes, indeed a warner did come to us, but we belied him and said: “‘Allaah never sent down anything (of Revelation)”’”

[al-Mulk 67:8]

It is well known that the words of Allaah “Every time a group is cast therein” includes all the groups who will be thrown into it.

Abu Hayyaan said in al-Bahr al-Muheet, commenting on the aayah under discussion: [The word] kullama (“every time”) indicates a general meaning encompassing every time throwing is done, so it includes all those who are thrown in.

Another example is the aayah in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who disbelieved will be driven to Hell in groups till when they reach it, the gates thereof will be opened (suddenly like a prison at the arrival of the prisoners). And its keepers will say: ‘Did not the Messengers come to you from yourselves, reciting to you the Verses of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of this Day of yours?’ They will say: ‘Yes,’ but the Word of torment has been justified against the disbelievers!”

[al-Zumar 39:71].

The words “And those who disbelieved will be driven” are general in meaning and include all the kuffaar.

The words “And those who disbelieved will be driven… They will say: ‘Yes…’ ” are general in meaning and include all the kuffaar. This clearly shows that the all the people of Hell will have been warned by their Messengers in this world, but they disobeyed the command of their Lord, as is clear.

Adwa’ al-Bayaan (3/66, 67)

We believe that knowing the purpose for which Allaah created mankind, and knowing that Allaah will not punish anyone according to what He knows about them, rather it will be recompense for his deeds in this world, and therefore he will not have any excuse before Allaah – this is the answer to the confusion mentioned in the question.

Secondly:

With regard to the question of why Iblees was sent down to earth with Adam and his progeny, the difference between Adam’s coming down and that of Iblees is that when Adam (peace be upon him) was sent down to earth he had repented to Allaah, so Allaah accepted his repentance and guided him, and sent him down to this earth as an honoured Prophet who had been forgiven, and he was to remain in this world until the appointed time that Allaah has decreed for him.

As for the enemy of Allaah Iblees, he did not repent at all or regret his sin, or turn back; he has no hope of repentance and never tried to repent. Rather he was stubborn and arrogant, and he overstepped the mark and disbelieved. But he asked Allaah not to hasten his doom and punishment, but rather to delay that until the Day of the appointed time. He did not ask for that so that he would have the opportunity to repent, rather it was so that he could persist in following the path of doom, and take the misguided people to Hell with him. He came down as a leader of his party, the losing party of the shaytaan, so that Allaah’s wisdom concerning His creation might be fulfilled, and so that He might test them: will they obey Him or will they obey His enemy?, and so that the ultimate doom will be the share of this accursed enemy, because of his stubbornness and evildoing, and he deserves to be a loser.

And Allaah knows best.
Reply

bhakti
09-22-2010, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by k.aleena
I do thank Allah (swt) for that. Bhakti we are not against Hindus in general (except those who hate us). Most of my friends are hindus and they are all really nice. They respect me and my religion. As i pointed out to u in one of the threads that u have closed ur mind. U have some very strong conviction about the concept of God and worship. U are not going to benefit from this forum unless u shed away that attitude which i think is not possible for u(except if Allah wishes). If u r here to promote that every one should live in peace and harmony than we do agree wid u. But if u suggest that for attaining harmony we need to compromise on our religion then we disagree. Islam does promote religious tolerance without compromising on its teaching.
I know you don't hate all hindus just like I dont hate all muslims. But a muslim's general attitude towards hindu faith is appalling. When you see a guy worshipping an idol, you automatically assume he's an idiot who doesn't know squat. If this attitude is that of an "open mind" then your closed mind argument is rather funny. Maybe you should realize that there are intelligent people among Hindu people too. So if an intelligent Hindu still subscribes to worshiping an idol then surely there must be some intelligent reason to it. This is when you set forth questioning the reasons and then arrive at the final philosophy though a series of questions. This should be the open-minded man's attitude. Instead Muslims generally use the word 'idol worshipers' in a highly derogatory sense and with a false sense of supremacy simply disregard all Hindu beliefs as garbage. Is this how an "open mind" thinks?

Originally Posted by abdussattar
Your answer to these questions will surely be: No. A Muslim does not become truly a Muslim simply because he is born a Muslim. A Muslim is not a Muslim because he belongs to any particular race; he is a Muslim because he follows Islam. If he renounces Islam, he ceases to be a Muslim. Any person, whether a Brahman or a Rajput, an Englishman or a Japanese, a white or a black, will, on accepting Islam, become a full member of the Muslim community; while a person born in a Muslim home may be expelled from the Muslim community if he gives up following Islam, even though he may be a descendant of the prophet, an Arab or Pathan.
Sure...that stuff is quite obvious. But the unassailable fact is that there is a lot of emotional effort involved in converting from one religion to another which is why a majority die in the same faith as they are born. So does that mean that one born in a Muslim faith requires far lesser effort (in fact his job is almost half-done) to reach paradise while the non-muslim needs to undertake enormous emotional upheaval (which many are incapable of) to reach paradise? Isn't that biased?

Originally Posted by abdussattar
It wold not feel bad if you removed the SECULAR word from the indian constitutions and replaced it with HINDU.
Don't take me wrong but I hate it when people say that man. What you say suggests that removing the word secular gives you a free hand to curb minority faiths as you want. Simply having the word SECULAR in the constitution of a country itself is a glowing tribute to the tolerance of the majority religion of that nation. And a nation's failure to do so emphasizes the underlying intolerance of it's majority religion.

In other words, not having SECULAR in a country's constitution is nothing to be proud of. And this is especially so in this age of globalization when everyone is interdependent on the other. You can't demean another's faith while still relying on other people of that faith

Originally Posted by GreyKode
Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters in Islam and to our dear guest bhakti, I do this for the sake of ALLAH(swt) and justice. I'm an old member of this forum probably no one remebers me or even cares , I don't participate much as I got very busy lately although I love to pass by this beloved forum from now to then. I came past this thread and I followed the conversation as it progressed. I urge my borthers and sisters to respect our dear guest bhakti as he is a respectful individual and from his previous threads he has proved to be a very sane and right-minded person. I respect all the member's views but let's try not to offend each other's faith, what bhakti says regarding the rationale of the practices in his religion should be accepted as he has the right to represent his religion, we as muslims should take things on face value and not search for intentions. Maybe he can offer an apology for his statements that offended the members and we can reciprocate back. Then the conversation can continue. Wama tawfiqi illa billah.
I appreciate it GreyKode. Props to you! I have apologized profusely before in this thread and I would like to apologize again if anyone's hurt here. I assure all of you I have no malicious intent. If there is a majority consensus here that I'm crossing the limits in anyway, then I'll just stop.

Originally Posted by Insecured soul
AGAIN he doesnt need anything, he created us out of nothingness with a purpose of US serving and worshipping, infact i should be happy he gave us a purpose to worship him and every muslim is proud that he worship the real almighty god
You mean he created us first and then thought let's give them a purpose. So initial creation had no purpose? Or did he first think of the purpose of his creation and then created? In which case creation happened so we could all worship him.

Originally Posted by Insecured soul
This is common with idol worshippers, they can make anything into god, because they worship the created things (stars, humans, idols and the list goes on) except worshiping the creator
This is the crap that gets thrown at me inspite of all my exposition on this thread on idol worship. Maybe k.aleena should adjudicate whose mind is closed here?

Originally Posted by naidamar
It is indeed true that we were only created to worship Allaah (swt). Allaah (swt) did not place us on earth for play and amusement, rather we are all heading for our true home in the afterlife. But it should be noted that worship is not restricted to praying in a mosque. Actions like looking after the world - looking after other people and even animals and plants are all forms of worship of Allaah (swt). Worship in Islam is a very broad concept and includes any action that Allaah (swt) loves, and staying away from whatever He dislikes. Allaah (swt) has given us responsibilities in this life such as looking after each other, especially being kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the poor etc. so fulfillment of all this is a very important form of worship. Even actions of the heart like loving, fearing, being patient and having trust in Allaah (swt) are forms of worship and are in fact what much of the Qur'an emphasizes. Thus, many ordinary actions can actually become acts of worship based upon one's intention for doing them.
I love and immensely admire that explanation. I hope the Quran explicitly emphasizes this attitude towards worship coz I firmly believe that if you try to be a good guy and have noble intentions and harbour no ill will, then you have nothing to fear from. No hell-fire or no wrath of the supernatural. However, the pivotal question is what happens if I perform good deeds and all that but fail in worshiping Allah? Does that still send me to hell? Which would mean my going to paradise is a gift in exchange for me worshiping Allah....which brings us back to square one.
Reply

Predator
09-22-2010, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
This is the crap that gets thrown at me inspite of all my exposition on this thread on idol worship.
I suppose these verses from your own scripture are [edit]

Yajurved Chapter 32 Verse 3

“There is no image of Him”
(Svetashvatara Upanishad 4:19, Yajurved 32:3

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 7 verse 20:
“Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires they worship demigods i.e. idols.(Bhagavad Gita 7:20)


Yajurveda Chapter 40 verse 9
“They enter darkness those who worship natural things (for e.g. air, water, fire, etc.). They sink deeper in darkness those who worship sambhuti i.e. created things (for e.g. table, chair, car, idol etc.)

(Yajurveda 40:8)
“He is bodiless and pure”.



“His form cannot be seen, no one sees Him with the eye”.
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 4:20

(Bhagwad Geeta 7:20)
“He is one only without a second.”
(Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1)

Of Him there are neither parents nor Lord.”
(Shwetashvatara Upanishad 6:9)
Reply

'Aleena
09-22-2010, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
I know you don't hate all hindus just like I dont hate all muslims. But a muslim's general attitude towards hindu faith is appalling. When you see a guy worshipping an idol, you automatically assume he's an idiot who doesn't know squat. If this attitude is that of an "open mind" then your closed mind argument is rather funny. Maybe you should realize that there are intelligent people among Hindu people too. So if an intelligent Hindu still subscribes to worshiping an idol then surely there must be some intelligent reason to it. This is when you set forth questioning the reasons and then arrive at the final philosophy though a series of questions. This should be the open-minded man's attitude. Instead Muslims generally use the word 'idol worshipers' in a highly derogatory sense and with a false sense of supremacy simply disregard all Hindu beliefs as garbage. Is this how an "open mind" thinks?
You got me wrong there. I presume if a person visits an islamic forum( or any other religios forum) he does so either to have a better understanding of that religion or (a peron who has not made a decision yet as to what religion to follow) to seek the true religion .
You have made it pretty clear that you will never be able to understand the islamic concept of God and its prescribed way worshipping.
By closed mind i meant that you have already made up your mind that God can be worshipped through any form and by any means.
Even i have closed my mind from other beliefs which are not in accordance with the Quran and the Hadeeth ( which was not the case few months back).




Originally Posted by bhakti
Instead Muslims generally use the word 'idol worshipers' in a highly derogatory sense and with a false sense of supremacy simply disregard all Hindu beliefs as garbage.
If any of my posts has suggested this then i ask Allah for forgiveness coz He says:

And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.
6:108)

I apologise if any of my comments have offended you.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-22-2010, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by abdussattar



Read this article :-


Is Islam a Birthright?

But, first, think for a while: What does the word ‘Muslim’, which we all use so often,
really mean? Can a person a Muslim simply because he is the son or grandson of a
Muslim? Is a Muslim born a Muslim just as a Hindu Brahman’s son is a Brahman, or an
Englishman’s son is born an Englishman, or a white man’s son is born a white man, or
a Negro’s son is born a Negro? Are ‘Muslims’ a race, a nationality or a caste? Do
Muslims belong to the Muslim Ummah like Aryans belong to the Aryan race? And, just
as a Japanese is a Japanese because he is born in Japan, is a Muslim similarly a
Muslim by being born in a Muslim country?

Your answer to these questions will surely be: No. A Muslim does not become truly a
Muslim simply because he is born a Muslim. A Muslim is not a Muslim because he
belongs to any particular race; he is a Muslim because he follows Islam. If he
renounces Islam, he ceases to be a Muslim. Any person, whether a Brahman or a
Rajput, an Englishman or a Japanese, a white or a black, will, on accepting Islam,
become a full member of the Muslim community; while a person born in a Muslim
home may be expelled from the Muslim community if he gives up following Islam,
even though he may be a descendant of the prophet, an Arab or Pathan.

Such will surely be your answer to my question. This establishes that the greatest gift
of Allah which you enjoy-that of being a Muslim-is not something automatically
inherited from your parents, which remains yours for life by right irrespective of your
attitudes and behaviour. It is a gift which you must continually strive to deserve if you
want to retain it; if you are indifferent to it, it may be taken away from you, God
forbid.

What is the source of this article? I might be interested in reading more by this author.
Reply

Insecured soul
09-22-2010, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
I know you don't hate all hindus just like I dont hate all muslims. But a muslim's general attitude towards hindu faith is appalling. When you see a guy worshipping an idol, you automatically assume he's an idiot
No we dont take them as idiots but we feel pity for them that they are worshipping idols, there is huge difference in both the words and in thier meanings.

Originally Posted by bhakti
Maybe you should realize that there are intelligent people among Hindu people too. So if an intelligent Hindu still subscribes to worshiping an idol then surely there must be some intelligent reason to it.
Our prophet pbuh named a guy "abu jahl" which means father of ignorance though he was a very intellectual guy and a huge businessman but he didnt accept the word of the almighty god and became muslim hence he was named the father of ignorance.

Your intellect should lead you to acknowledge the truth and thats why allah azzawajal says in the quran that in hellfire people will curse thier intellectual for bringing them into this misery and pain and afterall what use is the intellect when it does not lead u to truth and benefits you?


Originally Posted by bhakti
Instead Muslims generally use the word 'idol worshipers' in a highly derogatory sense and with a false sense of supremacy simply disregard all Hindu beliefs as garbage. Is this how an "open mind" thinks?

I know what u want buddy and i.e. respect from muslim fellows, see a muslim will never disperect ur idols but we cant help feeling pity for a non muslim who rejects the truth

Originally Posted by bhakti
You mean he created us first and then thought let's give them a purpose. So initial creation had no purpose? Or did he first think of the purpose of his creation and then created? In which case creation happened so we could all worship him.
I can only to tell u on this that allah doesnt think that way, he knows the unknown and the future, past n everything u wanna know what he thought 1st last and in the middle??? I DONT KNOW.... may be someone can answer u on this,
Reply

'Aleena
09-23-2010, 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by GreyKode
I'm an old member of this forum probably no one remebers me or even cares
wa alaikum salam brother,
We wud love to here more from you:)
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-23-2010, 05:01 PM
Today, my friend and I visited our another friend and were waiting outside for him just then a Hindu man who was stoned asked us to dance with them in the Ganesh rally. I tried to refuse him by saying that we have some work here while my heart was pounding (what if he his us and calls his friends to beat us to death for refusing his proposal to dance with them?). To which he replied, "He (the ganesh) is everyone's god, come on".:raging: We had to give a strong reply and we said,"Our God is, Allah Rabb-ul -Aalameen." :)
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Insecured soul
09-24-2010, 02:03 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Of course there's no image of him. Seriously, get your lazy ass to read the posts on idol worship I've made before on this thread. You are getting on my nerves now.
Ofcourse there is no image and yet u fall prostrate in front of an idol? you all guys dont like when we call you idol worshipper, aint that an idol? and arent u worshipping it?

people from other countries who has never seen ganpati idol when they see it they say what is it? a man with an elephant trunk and thats what its looks like, am i right?

you call any one of us worshipper of allah and we would be happy to hear it

Originally Posted by bhakti
I want muslims to respect hinduism as much as I want hindus to respect Islam. I want everyone to respect each other's religion and recognize that there's good and bad in everything.

There is only good in true religion and thats what we believe and say.


Originally Posted by bhakti
I dont want anyone to label his own religion as 'only true religion'
Even you if you dont want but muslim will keep saying that till the world ends
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid
, "He (the ganesh) is everyone's god, come on".
Everyone's god is a man-elephant mutant??

come on!
Reply

bhakti
09-24-2010, 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Insecured soul
Ofcourse there is no image and yet u fall prostrate in front of an idol? you all guys dont like when we call you idol worshipper, aint that an idol? and arent u worshipping it? people from other countries who has never seen ganpati idol when they see it they say what is it? a man with an elephant trunk and thats what its looks like, am i right? you call any one of us worshipper of allah and we would be happy to hear it
Originally Posted by naidamar
Everyone's god is a man-elephant mutant??
wait what?!! lol guys....did you people even bother reading the loads of text I've typed on this thread on idol worship? I just cant believe this man. It's starting to get funny now. You ask me questions on idol worship (the OP) and I answer it. I then raise specific questions about your faith that no one can gimme convincing answers for. Instead you completely ignore the answers that I gave earlier and keep harping on about the same old stuff repeatedly. wow! just wow!

I guess I was completely wrong in coming here and trying to foster mutual respect and understanding. You guys have gone blind and deaf and just cant think beyond your limited squares of thought. I am prolly wrong in having participated in this forum.

I suppose they got it right when they say "Never Argue With A Fool – They Will Drag You Down To Their Level, Then Beat You With Experience!"
Reply

'Aleena
09-24-2010, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
I suppose it is our different upbringings? Yet, you are going to paradise and me to hell. And all your nice Hindu friends that are respectful to you and your religion too too are going straight to hell for an eternity of burning. Doesnt that strike you as funny?
Nope. Actually it scares me. May Allah give them Hidayat.
Even though i am a muslim i will be punished for my sins and whatever good a disbeliver does he will be rewarded in this life and not in the hereafter.

There are many members on this forum who didnt have an islamic upbringing. If you have been invited to truth and u reject it then its ur choice and u will bear the burden.
However,
Originally Posted by abdussattar
What about those people to whom the message of Islam never reached?
(Such as Muhammad(P.B.U.H)'s parents?)


Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
(17:15) Whoever is guided is only guided for [the benefit of] his soul. And whoever errs only errs against it. And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
Originally Posted by Bedouin
There is however, a difference of opinion on whether or not those people that have never received the message of Islam would enter hell. Allah knows best their fate.

Another thing, a person that disbelieves in his short finite time on Earth would continue in disbelief had he been given the chance to live a much longer time or were he to be given another chance in life. Hence the argument that they're getting an infinite punishment for a finite crime does not apply here.

They would choose wrong every time, thus punishment is justified.
Originally Posted by Bedouin
Disbelievers will go to hell because the signs of Allah and the signs of the Prophethood of Muhammad are so clear that they have no right to reject it.
err... do u understand sanskrit ? have u learned sanskrit ?
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-24-2010, 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
I want muslims to respect hinduism as much as I want hindus to respect Islam. I want everyone to respect each other's religion and recognize that there's good and bad in everything. The world is full of duality (opposing qualities) is one of the principle teachings of the Bhagavad Gita. I dont want anyone to label his own religion as 'only true religion' or 'the only way' or 'everyone else but me is going to hell'. Don't you see how much antagonism such an attitude can cause? Your supremacist attitude, however, is never gonna bring about communal harmony. Shedding that is the only way for the world to move forward and people to be happy in a pluralistic world.
Learning to respect people is good. And when pluralism means learning to respect the different faiths of different people is also good. However for pluralism to become the equal of every other religion does not follow.

Your statement: "I dont want anyone to label his own religion as 'only true religion' " caused me to remember a conversation I had with a young man from India, a hindu by faith. He was trying to convince me that there were no such things as absolutes, that everything was relative. He went so far as to suggest that my belief in absolutes was not only wrong, but wrong absolutely.
Reply

Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
wait what?!! lol guys....did you people even bother reading the loads of text I've typed on this thread on idol worship? I just cant believe this man. It's starting to get funny now. You ask me questions on idol worship (the OP) and I answer it. I then raise specific questions about your faith that no one can gimme convincing answers for. Instead you completely ignore the answers that I gave earlier and keep harping on about the same old stuff repeatedly. wow! just wow!
I apologize if I missed or did not understand your explanation.
Please enlighten me again.

So, according to you, all those hindus who worship and pray to ganesh, wishnu, shiva, brahma etc and who put offerings to the statues of those gods (devas?) do not follow the correct teaching of hinduism?
Is this what you are saying?
Reply

abdussattar
09-24-2010, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
What is the source of this article? I might be interested in reading more by this author.


It is written by Maulana maududi.

Here's more literature by him.
http://www.teachislam.com/content/view/118/119/
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bhakti
09-24-2010, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I apologize if I missed or did not understand your explanation. Please enlighten me again. So, according to you, all those hindus who worship and pray to ganesh, wishnu, shiva, brahma etc and who put offerings to the statues of those gods (devas?) do not follow the correct teaching of hinduism? Is this what you are saying?
please see http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1369408

and

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ml#post1356303

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Learning to respect people is good. And when pluralism means learning to respect the different faiths of different people is also good. However for pluralism to become the equal of every other religion does not follow. Your statement: "I dont want anyone to label his own religion as 'only true religion' " caused me to remember a conversation I had with a young man from India, a hindu by faith. He was trying to convince me that there were no such things as absolutes, that everything was relative. He went so far as to suggest that my belief in absolutes was not only wrong, but wrong absolutely.
I don't see how you can respect another religion while at the same time considering it false? However, I do understand it is tough for a person of Abrahamic faith to see truth in all religions owing to certain dogmatic principles. Therefore I wouldn't expect what I said off you and take back my words. It is just impractical.

oh...and our perception of the world is definitely relative. Heard of Schrodinger's cat? Whatever is absolute is what is God.

Originally Posted by k.aleena
And never would We punish until We sent a messenger.
I thought the belief is that messengers (100,000 or so?) have been sent all over the world? Anyway, so if a person doesn't know of a messenger how is he judged? And don't you think such a person has it rather easy? Coz a person from a place where a messenger is sent has the enormous additional emotional burden of having to choose between his old beliefs and the new path. And we all know how tough breaking an emotional bond is. If someone suddenly told you your parents are completely different people than whom you have been considering as your parents since birth, it would be very very tough to accept the new 'truth' and severe emotional ties with the former parents, loose all old habits and adapt to a radically different lifestyle.

The other guy that knows nothing of the messenger though has it real easy coz he continues with his lifestyle and has no emotional upheaval to make. So why the added burden on some selected people? On what basis is this decided?

Originally Posted by k.aleena
Disbelievers will go to hell because the signs of Allah and the signs of the Prophethood of Muhammad are so clear that they have no right to reject it.
I don't want to get into a long-winding discussion on 'scientific truths' n such (I'm already a lil tired of the discussion actually :) ) but I'll just say that if the 'truth' were so obvious then it should be like a bright light shining into your eyes that anyone and everyone be he an absolute moron or an Einstein shouldn't be able to reject it. Obviously this is not the case. We have millions of apostates of Islam all over the Globe and these guys clearly didn't see the light shining into their eyes. Even during the time of the prophet himself there were very many people that rejected him which is what caused all the wars etc.
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Ah ok, thank you for the confirmation.

so hindus do worship idols and indeed pray to those statues.

thank you.
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abdussattar
09-24-2010, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
so if a person doesn't know of a messenger how is he judged?
Messenger = Someone with a message. The Ummah Muhammadia carries the Message of the Messengers. So we're all messengers of the Messenger of Allah :saws1: here, talking to you.
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bhakti
09-24-2010, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Ah ok, thank you for the confirmation.

so hindus do worship idols and indeed pray to those statues.

thank you.
my dear dear dear dear brother naidamar...can I ask you a simple question lik a real good friend asking another? I want an honest answer.

When you pray, how do you know you are praying to Allah only?
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
my dear dear dear dear brother naidamar...can I ask you a simple question lik a real good friend asking another? I want an honest answer.

When you pray, how do you know you are praying to Allah only?
I know that I am praying to Allah SWT only because I have NO mental image of Allah at all (although in my heart and intention I am performing it in front of Allah) and no mental image of ANYTHING in front of me.

no half naked blue man with many hands, no elephant-man mutant, no mean-looking lady wearing antique jewelleries sitting on a cow, no half naked blond guy nailed on a cross, no old guy with beard, no woman with veil carrying a baby, no fat guy sitting and laughing, no serene-looking guy sitting cross legged etc etc...
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bhakti
09-24-2010, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I know that I am praying to Allah SWT only because I have NO mental image of Allah at all (although in my heart and intention I am performing it in front of Allah) and no mental image of ANYTHING in front of me.
Exactly! So the only thing that matters is your "heart and intention" right? Therefore, as long as in your "heart and intention" you have it set that you are praying to Allah, then Allah will receive your prayers right coz Allah certainly understands his devotee's heart and intention very well. So, if you are worshipping an idol and in your heart and intention you are worshiping Allah, then surely Allah will receive his devotee's prayers? coz Allah understands his devotee's deepest emotions very well.....
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Exactly! So the only thing that matters is your "heart and intention" right?
no, that's not correct. heart and intention is a must, followed by action, that's why in my sentence I said I have NOTHING in front of me.
For example, if first I intend to worship Allah but then I need to place a fat guy with elephant head statue in front of me, that means my mental image of Allah is that elephant-man mutant guy, and hence I worship that elephant-man or at least I feel I need the assistance of that mutant to connect with Allah, and so automatically that destroys automatically my first intention.


Therefore, as long as in your "heart and intention" you have it set that you are praying to Allah, then Allah will receive your prayers right coz Allah certainly understands his devotee's heart and intention very well. So, if you are worshipping an idol and in your heart and intention you are worshiping Allah, then surely Allah will receive his devotee's prayers? coz Allah understands his devotee's deepest emotions very well.....
Again, you are committing principles of contradiction error.
You are either worshipping Allah or not worshipping Allah.
It is not possible to worship idols and Allah at the same time.
Once you worship idols, you associate Allah, and hence denying Allah of His attribute.
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bhakti
09-24-2010, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
no, that's not correct. heart and intention is a must, followed by action, that's why in my sentence I said I have NOTHING in front of me. For example, if first I intend to worship Allah but then I need to place a fat guy with elephant head statue in front of me, that means my mental image of Allah is that elephant-man mutant guy, and hence I worship that elephant-man or at least I feel I need the assistance of that mutant to connect with Allah, and so automatically that destroys automatically my first intention.
How does it destroy your intention if your 'heart and intention' is that the idol is God? So by worshiping the idol, your intention is still that you are worshipping God.

Originally Posted by naidamar
Again, you are committing principles of contradiction error.
You are either worshipping Allah or not worshipping Allah.
It is not possible to worship idols and Allah at the same time.
Once you worship idols, you associate Allah, and hence denying Allah of His attribute.
But you are not worshiping the idol at all! Since 'heart and intention' is what matters! So by heart and intent you are worshiping God. Don't you get it?
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Ramadhan
09-24-2010, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
How does it destroy your intention if your 'heart and intention' is that the idol is God? So by worshiping the idol, your intention is still that you are worshipping God.

But you are not worshiping the idol at all! Since 'heart and intention' is what matters! So by heart and intent you are worshiping God. Don't you get it?
I think our differences in understanding is because muslims and hindus have different understanding of god.

for muslims, we get to know god from the Qur'an in which Allah Himself tells us about His attributes (99 attributes of God) and in QS. Al Ikhlas (QS. 112):
Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

Pay attention to the last verse. Therefore, there is nothing in this universe that can represent Him, and hence if we create an image to represent him, it will be associating him with a creation.

For hindus, you guys create all sorts of personalities to represent god, and in Islam, that is associating god with creation.

You know, you don't need to claim that hindus believe in one absolute god when the facts point to the opposite
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-24-2010, 08:23 PM
From one who stands outside of both Islam and Hinduism this is what I see:

Originally Posted by bhakti
Exactly! So the only thing that matters is your "heart and intention" right? Therefore, as long as in your "heart and intention" you have it set that you are praying to Allah, then Allah will receive your prayers right coz Allah certainly understands his devotee's heart and intention very well.
So good, so far.



Originally Posted by bhakti
So, if you are worshipping an idol and in your heart and intention you are worshiping Allah, then surely Allah will receive his devotee's prayers? coz Allah understands his devotee's deepest emotions very well.....
Originally Posted by bhakti
How does it destroy your intention if your 'heart and intention' is that the idol is God? So by worshiping the idol, your intention is still that you are worshipping God.
No. That would be like me telling my wife that my heart and my intention were focused on her all the while I was making love to a prostitute. If you are worshipping an idol, and you know it is an idol, then you are worshipping an idol. It doesn't somehow change the object of your worship into a mental substitute or a surrogate for God because in your mind you claim it is actually God you are worshipping. You identified the real truth for us when you said it is an idol; in your mind you know it is not the real God and yet you still worship it substituting something created by human hands for the one who is the creator of all.
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bhakti
09-25-2010, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
No. That would be like me telling my wife that my heart and my intention were focused on her all the while I was making love to a prostitute. If you are worshipping an idol, and you know it is an idol, then you are worshipping an idol. It doesn't somehow change the object of your worship into a mental substitute or a surrogate for God because in your mind you claim it is actually God you are worshipping. You identified the real truth for us when you said it is an idol; in your mind you know it is not the real God and yet you still worship it substituting something created by human hands for the one who is the creator of all.
lovemaking is a physical activity while prayer/worship is a mental activity which is why intent becomes so important.

let us say I'm separated from my wife for some time and long to be with her. So I take a pic of her with me and shower all my love on it. If somehow, my wife had the ability to understand my devotion, wouldn't she accept that love? Now, lets go further and say I forget to wear my spectacles and therefore take a pic of some other woman with me and start showering my love on that pic while actually thinking that pic is of my wife. Would that still change the fact that my love is for my wife and not for the woman in the pic? Would that still stop my wife from feeling the love I have for her even though the pic is definitely not her?

The devotee is not identifying the idol as an idol. To the devotee's mind the idol is god. This is the subjective truth. And therefore, as far as intent goes, he is praying to god.

And btw if I'm worshiping a false god by worshiping an idol and you are worshiping the true god, then what is this true god that you are worshiping? Don't gimme the name of the God coz it is absurd to think that God is limited by name.

I would also like to understand what the purpose of worship is?
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Insecured soul
09-25-2010, 02:57 AM
This thread is still ON, may be for the good, i told myself to be a spectator as i cant find no words which can convince bhakti............. (insha allah)
Reply

Ramadhan
09-25-2010, 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
So I take a pic of her with me and shower all my love on it. If somehow, my wife had the ability to understand my devotion, wouldn't she accept that love?
So hindus do actually think that god looks like a man with elephant head?



Originally Posted by bhakti
Now, lets go further and say I forget to wear my spectacles and therefore take a pic of some other woman with me and start showering my love on that pic while actually thinking that pic is of my wife.
faulty analogy.

hindus still can see that they are showering their love on the statues, they are not blind. Unless, they actually believe that god looks like half naked blue man with many hands wearing antique jewelleries dancing on a cow.
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Ramadhan
09-25-2010, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
To the devotee's mind the idol is god
Finally, you admit that god indeed looks like the idols you worship.

enough said.
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Ramadhan
09-25-2010, 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Don't gimme the name of the God coz it is absurd to think that God is limited by name.
Oh, so it is not absurd to call god shiva, vishnu, brahma, ganesh, etc etc (how many gods are there?).
It is also not absurd to picture god as a man with elephant head? as a dancing half naked blue man on a cow? as an ancient king flying on a giant bird?
Actually, by using the word "god" you are also limiting Him by a name.

We are given capacity to reason and heart to identify which the truth.

In the Qur'an, Allah (the identifying name of The majestic "The God") reveals Himself.
Please read this Concept of God in Islam:
http://www.whyislam.org/BrochuresOnl...8/Default.aspx
and His attributes:
http://www.whyislam.org/Submission/C...8/Default.aspx
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Yanal
09-25-2010, 04:52 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
You really believe I'm going to eternal hell coz I was born into a Hindu family? And you are going to paradise coz you were born muslim? So if I was, by chance, born into a muslim family then that would change my destiny right? Who decides who's being born where and in what family and why? Who decides what faith a guy is going to follow in his life? You don't believe in reincarnation and Karma right? So what's the criteria to decide who's gonna be muslim or non-muslims? Or in other words, who's goin to paradise and who's goin to burn in an eternal hell?
:sl:

I don't think anyone thinks that,you might convert and become a revert,whatever is in your destiny shall occur,insha'Allaah.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
09-25-2010, 05:39 AM
Okay, my question for bhakti, What is the fate of our Muslims (after this life) according to your beliefs?
Reply

Insaanah
09-25-2010, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
I believe idol worship is beautiful and puts joy in your heart, a smile on your face and a song on your lips rather than grim and serious worship
Originally Posted by bhakti
So if an intelligent Hindu still subscribes to worshiping an idol then surely there must be some intelligent reason to it
Originally Posted by bhakti
If you consider an idol as God and worship it then, essentially, to your mind, you are worshiping God since, to you, the idol is God.
Yet:

Originally Posted by bhakti
But you are not worshiping the idol at all! Since 'heart and intention' is what matters! So by heart and intent you are worshiping God. Don't you get it?
Poor bhakti, sounds like you're not quite sure what you believe.

Originally Posted by bhakti
let us say I'm separated from my wife for some time and long to be with her. So I take a pic of her with me and shower all my love on it. If somehow, my wife had the ability to understand my devotion, wouldn't she accept that love? Now, lets go further and say I forget to wear my spectacles and therefore take a pic of some other woman with me and start showering my love on that pic while actually thinking that pic is of my wife. Would that still change the fact that my love is for my wife and not for the woman in the pic? Would that still stop my wife from feeling the love I have for her even though the pic is definitely not her?
Your analogy is faulty, because you admit that it is some other woman, not your wife. Similarly, those idols are not God but some other thing, namely human made idols. You are worshipping them instead of God. You are not worshipping God when you worship them, as you yourself have shown in your analogy.

I call you and invite you to worship and obey the One true God, who is One, has no sons, daughters, partners, and there are no other gods but Him. There are no physical representations of Him. He has created everything.

I invite you to explore with an open heart and mind the simple, logical concept of God in Islam.

Peace.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-25-2010, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Insecured soul
This thread is still ON, may be for the good, i told myself to be a spectator as i cant find no words which can convince bhakti............. (insha allah)
I'm not here to convince bhakti or anyone else; I think this is what leads us to have threads that turn into angry arguments rather than civil discussions. But I am here to learn, to ask questions of others, and to give reasons for my own faith. I pray that might lead others to be more accepting of Christianity and, if so, I am happy to help them explore it more. But as for convincing, I'm content to let that Holy Spirit fulfill that role in a person's life.
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-25-2010, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by bhakti
And btw if I'm worshiping a false god by worshiping an idol and you are worshiping the true god, then what is this true god that you are worshiping? Don't gimme the name of the God coz it is absurd to think that God is limited by name.

I would also like to understand what the purpose of worship is?
Let's start by discussing the purpose of a name. You are right, names don't limit. But what you appear to miss is that names identify. So, when I say that I worship Jesus, that name identifies who I worship. When you say that you worship Vishnu or Shiva, you are identifying that you worship a different god than Jesus. And when you, with clear vision, create some physical object and say about the object not that it is a tool to help you worship Ganesha, but that it actually is Ganesha, then you are not worshipping a mental construct but that very physical object which you made.

Originally Posted by bhakti
The devotee is not identifying the idol as an idol. To the devotee's mind the idol is god. This is the subjective truth. And therefore, as far as intent goes, he is praying to god.
Tell me, when to a devotee's mind in Mumbai the idol is Ganesha, and to another devotee's mind in Delhi a different idol is Ganesha, it seems that you would assert that the subjective truth is there are two gods, both of them Ganesha. Is this your understanding? And if so, what would be the absolute number of gods that are being worshipped?


Originally Posted by bhakti
et us say I'm separated from my wife for some time and long to be with her. So I take a pic of her with me and shower all my love on it. If somehow, my wife had the ability to understand my devotion, wouldn't she accept that love?
Yes, and so I am not against iconography. If that is all that you say an idol is, nothing but a tool for worshipping the real god that you belief exists outside the idol. But that is not what I heard you expressing above. What I heard was that god actually existed within the physical construct of the object created by human hands. Please be clear if that is NOT what you meant.

Now, lets go further and say I forget to wear my spectacles and therefore take a pic of some other woman with me and start showering my love on that pic while actually thinking that pic is of my wife. Would that still change the fact that my love is for my wife and not for the woman in the pic? Would that still stop my wife from feeling the love I have for her even though the pic is definitely not her?
If you are never informed that the picture is not of your wife so that you live in ignorance of the truth, then it would be the same. But should you be informed, then I would hope that though that image had helped you for some time, that out of deference for your real wife, you would lay that picture aside and, without any image at all, learn to simply focus on her in your heart.

There is one other problem with the use of images as well. Let us suppose that the image you have is indeed an image of your wife. It is a beautiful image. It presents her at her best, it is perhaps a headshot that you carry around in a large enough frame that it is able to even be lifesize. It truly helps you to feel as if she is really with you. I'm sure that such honor and devotion would be well received by your wife. But what if she were to decide to come to where you were and spend some time with you in the flesh? If you chose to continue to share all of your devotion with the image and not with her real presence, how pleased do you think she would be with that type of devotion then? To my understanding, God is really present with us quite apart from the presence of an image. So, to give devotion to the idols that we create and claim that they are our god, and to ignore God who is truly present while doing so, is part of what makes idol worship the antithesis to the true worship of God.
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bhakti
09-26-2010, 03:43 AM
Hey Grace

I'd much rather talk to you than anyone else on this forum. The others just seem incapable of trying to reason coz the 'merciful' God will fry them in heaven if they even try to use their brains. When I say you are not praying to the idol at all coz you are thinking of it as God, someone says "see, you say you are not worhipping the idol and you still worship the idol, haha". lol...such amateurish thinking can take this nowhere except in circles. And when I say I forgot my spectacles and mistook the pic to be of my wife someone says "your analogy is wrong, coz Hindus ain't blind". He doesn't realize that when is comes to realizing divinity, we are all blind. Until such time as when you understand the true nature of God and until such time as you are groping and stumbling in this illusory world we are all blind and we are only trying to make up our own definitions of God. Now, someone will say "I know God coz the Quran has told me about it. Only you are stumbling. I've seen the light". But hey, thats only for you. I don't believe in the Quran just as you don't accept the Bhagavad Gita or the Upanishads. A muslim says quran is the final word while a christian says bible is the final word. So whom am I to believe? Especially when mere questioning of the book invites God's wrath, how can I be assured you are thinking clearly? Wouldn't it be a much saner conclusion to say that both these religions are just trying to understand god within the scope of their own scriptures? Otherwise, if I reject either book and accept the other, I'm committing equal blasphemy!

nyways, I hope no one continues making such thoughtless posts on this thread hereon.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Let's start by discussing the purpose of a name. You are right, names don't limit. But what you appear to miss is that names identify. So, when I say that I worship Jesus, that name identifies who I worship. When you say that you worship Vishnu or Shiva, you are identifying that you worship a different god than Jesus. And when you, with clear vision, create some physical object and say about the object not that it is a tool to help you worship Ganesha, but that it actually is Ganesha, then you are not worshipping a mental construct but that very physical object which you made.
I agree with the identification part. But what are you identifying? I'm identifying a form of God that I wish to see him as by using particular names. I don't believe I'm worshipping a God different than Jesus. You wish to identify the divine underbelly of the universe as Jesus coz that gives you comfort and me as Krishna and Rama and so on.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Tell me, when to a devotee's mind in Mumbai the idol is Ganesha, and to another devotee's mind in Delhi a different idol is Ganesha, it seems that you would assert that the subjective truth is there are two gods, both of them Ganesha. Is this your understanding? And if so, what would be the absolute number of gods that are being worshipped?
Objectively, the truth is that there are two Gods. But subjectively, each devotee is thinking and feeling the same thing. Like two guys thinking of the same person with different photographs in the hands of each. Absolute number is therefore 1

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Yes, and so I am not against iconography. If that is all that you say an idol is, nothing but a tool for worshipping the real god that you belief exists outside the idol. But that is not what I heard you expressing above. What I heard was that god actually existed within the physical construct of the object created by human hands. Please be clear if that is NOT what you meant.
To a devotee's mind, the idol is definitely God. Otherwise, the whole point of worship is defeated. However, the moment you realize that a Hindu worships the same God as Rama and Krishna and Vishnu etc., you realize that he is not restricting God within the "physical constructs of the idol".

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you are never informed that the picture is not of your wife so that you live in ignorance of the truth, then it would be the same. But should you be informed, then I would hope that though that image had helped you for some time, that out of deference for your real wife, you would lay that picture aside and, without any image at all, learn to simply focus on her in your heart.
But exactly! How do you know the true nature of God? How can you describe the infinite to me in finite words? Until such time as you realize the non-dual and infinite nature of divine energy yourself, you only identify God as your mind feels comfortable doing. Every devotee be it hindu muslim or christian finds the same peace in prayer.

oh and even if I focus on her in my heart, I'm still thinking of her form which is certainly idolatry. Besides, having an idol aids worship infinitely more. You interact with God as if he is right in front of you which means devotion starts pouring out like a limitless ocean.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
There is one other problem with the use of images as well. Let us suppose that the image you have is indeed an image of your wife. It is a beautiful image. It presents her at her best, it is perhaps a headshot that you carry around in a large enough frame that it is able to even be lifesize. It truly helps you to feel as if she is really with you. I'm sure that such honor and devotion would be well received by your wife. But what if she were to decide to come to where you were and spend some time with you in the flesh? If you chose to continue to share all of your devotion with the image and not with her real presence, how pleased do you think she would be with that type of devotion then? To my understanding, God is really present with us quite apart from the presence of an image. So, to give devotion to the idols that we create and claim that they are our god, and to ignore God who is truly present while doing so, is part of what makes idol worship the antithesis to the true worship of God.
Like I said before "How do you know the true nature of God? How can you describe the infinite to me in finite words? Until such time as you realize the non-dual and infinite nature of divine energy yourself, you only identify God as your mind feels comfortable doing."

Have you seen God? How will you present God before me just like you would present my wife-in-flesh-and-blood before me? Besides, if you say God exists outside of the image or outside of myself or outside of this Earth or outside of the universe, then are setting spatial limits to an infinite entity. A limitless entity has to be both within and without and all pervading.
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Grace Seeker
09-26-2010, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by bhakti
Wouldn't it be a much saner conclusion to say that both these religions are just trying to understand god within the scope of their own scriptures?
Of course one tries to understand God within the scope of the revelation one has received -- I say revelation and not scriptures as you did because I do not believe that all that we know about God is recorded in our scriptures. I believe that the scriptures do record revelation, but that God is not limited to only revealing himself through scripture alone. Any other revelation would also be a source by which we might try to understand God.

Otherwise, if I reject either book and accept the other, I'm committing equal blasphemy!
Blasphemy, as I have learned to define it, is not the rejection of scripture, or any other sort of revelation. Blasphemy is to signify etymologically gross irreverence towards any person or thing worthy of exalted esteem. In the context in which we are discussing it, blasphemy is to speak contempously toward God or to speak falsely with regard to the nature and character of God in such a way as to insult and dishonor him.


Objectively, the truth is that there are two Gods. But subjectively, each devotee is thinking and feeling the same thing. Like two guys thinking of the same person with different photographs in the hands of each. Absolute number is therefore 1
You're going to have to say this again, but in another way for me. I don't understand how you can say both "objective, the truth is that there are two God" AND "[the]absolute number is therefore 1" at the same time.


To a devotee's mind, the idol is definitely God. Otherwise, the whole point of worship is defeated. However, the moment you realize that a Hindu worships the same God as Rama and Krishna and Vishnu etc., you realize that he is not restricting God within the "physical constructs of the idol".
Now, this is interesting. Are you saying that when you think of Rama you are thinking of the same God as when you think of Krishna? So, adding all of the gods you worship together, can you provide a grand total?

But exactly! How do you know the true nature of God? How can you describe the infinite to me in finite words? Until such time as you realize the non-dual and infinite nature of divine energy yourself, you only identify God as your mind feels comfortable doing.
And do you, after coming to "realize the non-dual and infinite nature of divine energy yourself," identify God as your mind feels uncomfortable doing?


oh and even if I focus on her in my heart, I'm still thinking of her form which is certainly idolatry.
Which is fine for a woman who, because of her nature occupies space and therefore has a shape and form. But you've already said that God is infinite. You talk about God being divine energy. Energy is not matter. Energy does not have shape and form. To cast that which has no shape and form into any given shape or form is to create an idol. To worship that idol which is matter and identify it as the god who is not matter just strikes me as pure nonsense. To identify God who is not matter and worship him as a material physical object is not just idol worship, but seems to me to fits the above definition of blasphemy as well.

Besides, having an idol aids worship infinitely more. You interact with God as if he is right in front of you which means devotion starts pouring out like a limitless ocean.
Maybe I'm drawing to fine of a line, but I can see your point only to the extent that you do not believe the idol to actually be the embodiment of God. Once you cross that line and say this idol is actually the god whom I am worshipping, it seems to me that one has limited god to a particular place, shape, size and time. God is hardly infinite divine energy any more.

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Besides, if you say God exists outside of the image or outside of myself or outside of this Earth or outside of the universe, then are setting spatial limits to an infinite entity. A limitless entity has to be both within and without and all pervading.
God exists not just outside of the image or myself or the Earth or the universe, but also outside all spatial limits. God exists outside both time and space. But, wheras energy can be converted to matter and matter to energy, God cannot be converted into something other than that which he is. Certainly, not by a process as rudimentary as carving, drawing, sculpting, painting or any other form of manufacturing. God is something wholly other than what we are. And so I agree that God is a limitless entity, but for that very reason I think one must be careful that one does not convey the idea that God who transcends time and space is an occupier of either.
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Insaanah
09-26-2010, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
I invite you to explore with an open heart and mind the simple, logical concept of God in Islam.

Peace.
Originally Posted by bhakti
Hey Grace

I'd much rather talk to you than anyone else on this forum. The others just seem incapable of trying to reason coz the 'merciful' God will fry them in heaven if they even try to use their brains.
Greetings Bhakti,

That invitation from me was heartfelt, and still stands. I am saddened at your response to it.

Islam is a religion of logic, where, contrary to your misonception, we actually think, enquire, and then accept and believe. Allah tells us in the Qur'an repeatedly to ponder and contemplate.

If you are willing to put away the barriers, and to listen with a calm and open mind, you will learn much about Islam and have many of your misconceptions corrected.

Peace.
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