Why do Muslims want to move to "Western" countries?

[Kashnowe]

i was recently reading about how france outlawed the burka and hijab in public as well as head scarves in school. i understand the burka and hijab as being seen as a threat to security as a man could very well be under that black veil, you would not know. it would be a very clever and useful disguise for criminals. i do not undertand the law about head scarves in schools, (also turbin, yarmulka,a nd crucifixes) as i think we are all reminded every day that each person is an individual and should not be forced to make themselves invisible, as most religious people actually identify with their religion as their whole reason for being, they should be able to dress accordingly. some are fat, some are tall, none invisible. if a person did not want themselves to be known then they should stay home.

the head scarf law reminds me of communist china. next everyone will be forced to wear a uniform in public....? it just doesn't make sense to me. my mother told me when she was a child all women had to conver their heads in church too.

many people are offended but "when in rome, do as the romans do" right?

so everyone here has heard that the Muslim world does not agree with "western civilization" so then why are there millions and millions of Muslims living in western countries? why are there lotteries for people desperate to escape their just, fair, loving Muslim communities to live among heathens and temptation and evil? why would you want to move to the UK or the US or France if you know they are countries with Christian forefathers and their laws do no reflect the law of Islam and their people are not all tolerant of Islam?

why then do people move here and still talk negativly about the place they tried so hard to belong to. why would you want to follow our laws if you find them insulting? why would you want to raise your children here if you do not agree with the values of the society, which your child will surely be exposed to on a daily basis?

if it is because these western countries offer more money and jobs then why not ask yourself why is my country in peril? have our leaders let us down? have our laws not brought prosperity? have our leaders not invested in our future? instead people leave, rather than being part of the solution they just quit.

it seems to me if Allah wants you to live a certain way, moving to America does not fit into that equation for millions of reasons.....like not being a Muslims country etc etc

[syed_z]

Its basically earning and job and work, because of which Muslim families are forced to move. If you really see that which Muslim country populations have moved in large numbers to Europe, you'll be surprised that it is mostly those countries which were colonized by either one of the European countries at a time and it was later the same country which population had moved in large numbers to Europe/West because of lack of job opportunities.

For example, take the example of Palestine. You will see many palestinians living inside Europe, but you should also see that it was mainly Europe who is responsible for their emigration. How ? Where does Israel get all of its weapons and modern technology to drive out and occupy and kill the Palestinians ? Obviously blind support of AMerica, Canada, UK etc. And so you will see many Palestinian families in Canada and specially in UK etc.

Take example of Algeria and Tunisia, if you go there, have you ever thought why they speak so much French there ? And so you see their populations in Large number in France because France occupied their regions. Now it is not ONLY because of lack of employment opportunities, but the main reasons they move their is because the occupiers when they leave, they left and devastated their economies as well.

A good example is Iraq. Wasn't it George Bush saying "We will give Peace and Prosperity and blah blah to Iraq" ... and so the issue of Iraq is crystal clear, we can see how much "peace" there is after such a long time.... and then you mostly see Kurdish people living in USA, because it was USA who supported Saddam at that time and he killed Kurdish people and then refugees fled from Iraq and USA gave them Asylum !

So there are many examples of Western governments always trying to support the regimes they think are right, in the Middle East countries who then are corrupt and create problems for the citizens of that country and then they flee to other lands where there is, peace... and that is West.

And then how can We forget the Role of IMF and World Bank. Who give loans in Huge amounts , in their currencies, which are over valued than the country whom they are giving loans to, knowing very well that governments are corrupt, yet they sanction the loan. The government corrupt officials eat up the money and then poor citizens of the county have to bear the wrath of policies formulated by these institutions which in turn create more economic problems, because they cannot pay back the loans in Dollars and Euros while earning their local devalued currencies. And so people run to such lands to save themselves from poverty.

i can give you tons and tons of examples. But i just want you to ponder over words i have said above and think. If West would stop interfering in the Muslim world affairs, may be we would not be moving there in such numbers....

[aadil77]

We can move to any part of this earth we like, no one owns USA or UK or other western countries - not you or your govts.

And its true - nearly every muslim country is a mess and we blame no one but ourselves, its because we abondoned our faith. It has nothing to do with 'have our laws not brought prosperity', its about practicing those laws, look back at the islamic khalifate period - there was no nation on earth more prosperous than the islamic empire, it was due to us sticking to our god's command, as soon as we abondoned the command of Allah, Allah abondoned us.

[tango92]

its not just muslims that want to move to the west, even europeans are looking for work in the big cities etc

most true muslims dont really want to live in the west. for different people the reasons will be different eg

personally im here for my education, but since i was born here migrating east seems a bit daunting plus i have freinds and family etc. Also, like myself, alot of muslims born here didnt actually have a choice of where to live. its the call of Allah swt at the end of teh day. perhaps it is our oppurtunity to make dawah.....

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[Amoeba]

Don't forget also many are simply born in western countries.

[Kashnowe]

it was due to us sticking to our god's command, as soon as we abondoned the command of Allah, Allah abondoned us.

and we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

[Kashnowe]

You will see many palestinians living inside Europe, but you should also see that it was mainly Europe who is responsible for their emigration. How ? Where does Israel get all of its weapons and modern technology to drive out and occupy and kill the Palestinians ? Obviously blind support of AMerica, Canada, UK etc. And so you will see many Palestinian families in Canada and specially in UK etc.

this makes no sense. "hey europe you sent money to israel so they could kill us and make us leave out homes. now we want to live with you! " not exactly the type of neighbors i'm looking for......

i don't see mostly kurdish people here.. i see mostly persians and pakistanis in my city.. and it hasn't been along time since iraq war its been a few years. im not even going to get into get into george bush..lol.

but yea so you pretty much backed up the fact that ther is more money here. you know you will be free. you feel safer. our governments are less corrupt. justice is served...but we are evil and stand against everything you believe in....i don't get it. aadil you actually can't move wherever you want. many countries have restrictions on immigration. a merciful God does not abandon his people. quite the contrary. if muslim countries are bsaed on muslim law then why are they more dangerous like u just said?

[Muhaba]

It must be human nature. When the americas were discovered many people from Europe moved to the new world to start a new life.

But don't forget that europeans had killed native americans in the native americans' own land, and later put them in reservations, not giving them much rights etc. Look at your own history before you start picking on others, most of whom are innocent people just trying to live a peaceful life away from all the corruption and troubles your governments have created all over the world.

[CosmicPathos]

this is not "YOUR" country. Neither your ancestors nor your government bought these lands. These are the common inheritance of human species. We have the RIGHT to go anywhere on earth as Muslims. It does not mean, however, that we also give into the stupid cultures and beliefs of the lands we are migrating to. Why? because its a dynamic process, 50000 years earlier, your very own lands had different cultures which were probably replaced by you or your ancestors. So dont blame us, blame yourselves too for destroying those who came before you.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Just because USA is 'benevolent' domestically doesnt translate into 'benevolence' internationally, as any cursory look at the history of the US actions abroad will tell you.

Lets take Iraq, this is a good summary of what the US efforts to promote 'American values' has achieved in Iraq over the decades.

"... no American should be allowed to forget that the nation of Iraq, the society of Iraq, have been destroyed, ruined, a failed state. The Americans, beginning 1991, bombed for 12 years, with one excuse or another; then invaded, then occupied, overthrew the government, killed wantonly, tortured ... the people of that unhappy land have lost everything — their homes, their schools, their electricity, their clean water, their environment, their neighborhoods, their mosques, their archaeology, their jobs, their careers, their professionals, their state-run enterprises, their physical health, their mental health, their health care, their welfare state, their women's rights, their religious tolerance, their safety, their security, their children, their parents, their past, their present, their future, their lives ...

“More than half the population either dead, wounded, traumatized, in prison, internally displaced, or in foreign exile ... The air, soil, water, blood and genes drenched with depleted uranium ... the most awful birth defects ... unexploded cluster bombs lie in wait for children to pick them up ... an army of young Islamic men went to Iraq to fight the American invaders; they left the country more militant, hardened by war, to spread across the Middle East, Europe and Central Asia ... a river of blood runs alongside the Euphrates and Tigris ... through a country that may never be put back together again."

In fact Millions of Iraqi refugees went to Jordan and Syria, only a trickle went to Europe or the US and (from the european perspective) are busily being repatriated. Its the same all over the world. Pakistan hosts millions of Afghan refugees. So no I dont buy this picture of the Muslim hordes just waiting to get into America.

Americans like to howl on about how free they are, it would be nice if they could let other countries live in freedom as well.

On the question of why people emigrate, its obvious, they go where the money is.

[marwen]

edit........

[Yanal]

:sl:

Some Muslims are only Muslims by name(may Allaah guide them,insha'Allaah) and care about their childrens studies and how important it is to raise them in a Western Country . Some are blinded by the few advantages and don't think about the disadvantages which are many.

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

The so-called benefits are shrinking because the developing countries ability to attract globally recognized accredited educational institutions. http://collegiateway.org/news/2008-mideast-ivy-league

But the motivations for Muslims immigrating to the West are various.

The perception that the majority of countries that are populated by Muslims have leadership that is based upon Quran and Sunnah is a myth. The Shariah is usually applied to the poor and less fortunate which is a fact.

There are other reasons and motivations for the immigration to the West.

The corruption has been established since the existence of countries coming out of colonialism.

The foreign aid accepted by the leadership from Western countries to purchase villas abroad while the country’s population continues in poverty is well documented.

Those who are apologist for the corrupt stooges only allow everyone to know who they support and what they are about.

If dedicated Muslims in the West were offered full scholarships to attend Universities like Al Azhar University or University of Al Medina there would be a mass exodus from the West to the East.

http://iu.edu.sa/web/Default.aspx

http://translate.google.com/translat...Den%26prmd%3Dv

[Zafran]

to earn money, to eat KFC, and [comment removed]

You can do all this in muslim countries now as well.

However your right the biggest reason for people to migrate to the west is for money.

peace

[Kashnowe]

i never said i thought america was right or better. i just wanted to know why the majority of *reported opinions is that we are not good and do not hold the same values that muslims hold dear. i would not choose to live in a satanist colony if i thought they could offer me a better job. lol.

and i'm not saying i don't want muslims here. thats not true at all. and by no means do i wish to generalize the religion based on the extremist views we see on the news. i am fully aware that most muslism are lovely peaceful people. i am fully aware every religion and country has nut jobs.

i don't agree that people have the right to live wherever they want. thats just not true and never was. you can live wherever you want if you destroy the inhabitants and take it over....i.e. war. but you don't have a right to do that. lol if thats true then what the heck are the palestinians and the israelis fighting over?

i don't support the war we are in now.
i have my problems with all governments. havent heard of one being free from corruption yet.

[Woodrow]

and we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

It is not just Muslims who are hostile to the Western world. Come join me on the Pine Ridge Oglala Sioux Reservation and I will introduce you to the Warrior Clan and the Ghost Dancers. There you will see true hostility to the wasichu government. Look at how the Western Government treats it's earliest citizens and then you will cease to wonder why there is hostility. Many Muslims here in the USA were born here and a growing number such as my wife are Native Americans who occupied this land thousands of years before there was a Europe.

What is amazing is that in spite of 200 years of slavery and ongoing genocide, the Sioux still treat the White invaders with fairness. The European world is the invader, in some cases the Muslims are simply moving home.

Perhaps the Western Christian world fears the influx of Muslims because of the way the Christian Westerners treated the people of the lands they invaded. Think back as to what the Christian world did to the Muslims of Spain, France, Portugal during the inquisitions or to the Muslim Tatars of Lithuania and Poland during the Crusades of the North. I won't even attempt to speak much about the crusades into the "Holy Land" when the blood of the Jews and Muslims flowed knee deep in Jerusalem.

The Muslim world can not begin to match the brutality of the Christian invaders as they conquered Europe and the Americas. Nor do very many of us have the desire to sink that low. Muslims have much more reason to fear Christians than Christians have to fear Muslims. You guys have historically been butchers of the civilizations you invaded.

I will admit not all Christians are like that, but the historical past gives ample reason for non-Christians to fear Christians.

Now to get back to the original Question on a personal answer: I was born in the USA My wife was born here also and her ancestors have lived here for over 20,000 years, undisturbed until 1492.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Why do Muslims want to move to "Western" countries?

im not sure, good question. maybe its the same reason why western (non-Muslim) women chase after and fall in love with Muslim men whilst believing they are oppressive. now that is what a call joke...and im sure anyone with half a brain would agree. whats also funny is that they also come on forums looking for some kind of revenge...hmm... umm well hello, it may come as a surprise to you, but the man you are after ISN'T here! oops, all the best next time :><:

[Ramadhan]

and we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

Who are "we"?

you live in the USA i suspect.

what's your ancestry?

were your great-great-great-great-great ...........great-great-great.....great parents USA citizens as well?

[Zafran]

i never said i thought america was right or better. i just wanted to know why the majority of *reported opinions is that we are not good and do not hold the same values that muslims hold dear. i would not choose to live in a satanist colony if i thought they could offer me a better job. lol.

and i'm not saying i don't want muslims here. thats not true at all. and by no means do i wish to generalize the religion based on the extremist views we see on the news. i am fully aware that most muslism are lovely peaceful people. i am fully aware every religion and country has nut jobs.

i don't agree that people have the right to live wherever they want. thats just not true and never was. you can live wherever you want if you destroy the inhabitants and take it over....i.e. war. but you don't have a right to do that. lol if thats true then what the heck are the palestinians and the israelis fighting over?

i don't support the war we are in now.
i have my problems with all governments. havent heard of one being free from corruption yet.

Like america or australia? I mean you do know that the american indians lived in america way before the europeans who took the land by force and preety much destroyed the indians that lived there.

[aamirsaab]

My home land is a POS. My parents got the **** out of dodge as soon as.

In the UK, we have a working legal system, top of the range NHS (without which I personally would not be alive), I can practice my religion freely in a peaceful community and the job prospects in general are amazing (compared to say child labour!). I also cannot get arrested or beaten up by the police for walking down the ****ing road here. Neither can I pay a cop to do either (or both) of those to someone I don't like.

Sure the Government in UK is probably just as bad as in Pakistan when you break it down, but the standard of living is much better.

[aadil77]

and we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

Who 'is' we? and what 'hostility'?

You don't own the land you happen live in - so don't try to show us this false sense of ownership and authority, if god wanted he could've turned the whole of USA upside down - then you'd have nothing

you americans have too much nationalism messing around with your brains

[AzizMostafa]

@ Why do Muslims want to move to "Western" countries?
Because Muslims follow peace-loving leaders and Scholars?
http://typophile.com/node/53099?page=2#comment-322450
http://typophile.com/node/53099?page1#comment-320686

[Maryan0]

Actually, westerners were too kind and visited us in the previous century (as colonists), so we loved them and we wanted to act like gentlemen and visit them back.

lol
In answer to the poster, people will go where the money is. My family went from E.Africa to Italy to Canada and even within Canada from eastern Canada to western Canada based on where has better work and cheaper living. Although I do believe Canada and Canadians are for the most part good people if not muslim.h
*The problem isnt with the west but with western foreign policy.
Salam

[titus]

nd we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

Who 'is' we? and what 'hostility'?

You don't own the land you happen live in - so don't try to show us this false sense of ownership and authority, if god wanted he could've turned the whole of USA upside down - then you'd have nothing

you americans have too much nationalism messing around with your brains

Well, I can see some hostility in that post.

Also, I don't see where he implied ownership. After all if someone was talking about Islam and called it "my religion" that would not mean they thought they owned it.

Who are "we"?

you live in the USA i suspect.

what's your ancestry?

were your great-great-great-great-great ...........great-great-great.....great parents USA citizens as well?

For me, my ancestry is German, Irish, Scottish, English and Cherokee (and whatever else the amateur genealogists in my family have failed to find) and my son is also part Korean. We are all 100% American.

So yes, some of my great-great-great-great-great-etc grandparents were here in what is now the USA.

Not that it matters, really. I mean, what is the time limit on becoming a native? How many generations "allow" you to call a place home? I know that some of my European ancestors have been in this country since at least the early 1800's, and my family first moved to East Texas where I live now during the Civil War.

I am an American. This is my country. I consider myself just as much as an American as anyone from Egypt considers them Egyptian, anyone from China considers themselves Chinese or anyone from Sweden considers themselves Swedish, and I don't know many Americans that feel all that much different than I do about it.

[Woodrow]

Well, I can see some hostility in that post.

Also, I don't see where he implied ownership. After all if someone was talking about Islam and called it "my religion" that would not mean they thought they owned it.



For me, my ancestry is German, Irish, Scottish, English and Cherokee (and whatever else the amateur genealogists in my family have failed to find) and my son is also part Korean. We are all 100% American.

So yes, some of my great-great-great-great-great-etc grandparents were here in what is now the USA.

Not that it matters, really. I mean, what is the time limit on becoming a native? How many generations "allow" you to call a place home? I know that some of my European ancestors have been in this country since at least the early 1800's, and my family first moved to East Texas where I live now during the Civil War.

I am an American. This is my country. I consider myself just as much as an American as anyone from Egypt considers them Egyptian, anyone from China considers themselves Chinese or anyone from Sweden considers themselves Swedish, and I don't know many Americans that feel all that much different than I do about it.

Peace Titus,

Your Tsalagi (Cherokee) side of your family tree would see the rest of your ancestors as having been invaders who answered hospitality with hostility.

I think for the most part we all at one time were invaders that came from the east into the west and were seen to greet hospitality with hostility. Perhaps we all need to look at our past and see how we all have treated the host in the countries we migrated to and the hosts need to remember the days they were the invaders and faced the same problems today's migrants face. Perhaps it is not a question of hospitality/hostility but fear of the unknown and new challenges to be faced.

To blatantly steal and paraphrase from something I read a long time ago (I forgot the source of the original)

"My family came to America because they heard the roads were paved with gold. When they got here they discovered the roads were not paved with gold, in fact the roads were not even paved. They were expected to do the paving. Furthermore they were sold shovels at inflated prices and ordered to pave the roads and after they did, they were accused of stealing jobs from American road builders."

[Muhaba]

"My family came to America because they heard the roads were paved with gold. When they got here they discovered the roads were not paved with gold, in fact the roads were not even paved. They were expected to do the paving. Furthermore they were sold shovels at inflated prices and ordered to pave the roads and after they did, they were accused of stealing jobs from American road builders."

beautiful quote

[almahdali]

western never impress me at all... i don't feel like migrating to europe or the US anymore after i've learned about EU... nothing interesting, boring and learning about europeans makes me headache :phew

[Ramadhan]

For me, my ancestry is German, Irish, Scottish, English and Cherokee (and whatever else the amateur genealogists in my family have failed to find) and my son is also part Korean. We are all 100% American.

So yes, some of my great-great-great-great-great-etc grandparents were here in what is now the USA.

Not that it matters, really. I mean, what is the time limit on becoming a native? How many generations "allow" you to call a place home? I know that some of my European ancestors have been in this country since at least the early 1800's, and my family first moved to East Texas where I live now during the Civil War.

I am an American. This is my country. I consider myself just as much as an American as anyone from Egypt considers them Egyptian, anyone from China considers themselves Chinese or anyone from Sweden considers themselves Swedish, and I don't know many Americans that feel all that much different than I do about it.

My question was addressed to Kashnowe who wrote:

and we welcomed you all with open arms. the hostility seems misplaced. no?

I am sure you don't share the same view as kashnowe, right?

[titus]

Which view in particular?

Welcoming immigrants with open arms or thinking that such hostility is misplaced?

I certainly did my part in welcoming immigrants with open arms. I married one.

And yes, I think there is often hostility and that it is misplaced.

[Ramadhan]

Which view in particular?

Welcoming immigrants with open arms or thinking that such hostility is misplaced?

I certainly did my part in welcoming immigrants with open arms. I married one.

And yes, I think there is often hostility and that it is misplaced.

In the context of the exchange between Kashnowe and Aadil77, Kashnowe implied that "we" exclude muslims and that muslims are hostile towards all americans.

Surely you don't share her view, no?

[Muezzin]

I think the appeal of Westerns has something to do with Clint Eastwood and John Wayne.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

i understand the burka and hijab as being seen as a threat to security as a man could very well be under that black veil, you would not know. it would be a very clever and useful disguise for criminals.

Criminals can disguise themselves in whatever manner of clothing they wish. In fact, many people carry out crimes without even being disguised. So it doesn't make sense to blanket ban a particular set of clothing - especially when the vast majority of people wearing it have proven to be absolutely no threat to society. Anyone determined to be a criminal will still be a criminal, regardless of which type of clothing is banned.

i do not undertand the law about head scarves in schools, (also turbin, yarmulka,a nd crucifixes) as i think we are all reminded every day that each person is an individual and should not be forced to make themselves invisible, as most religious people actually identify with their religion as their whole reason for being, they should be able to dress accordingly. some are fat, some are tall, none invisible. if a person did not want themselves to be known then they should stay home.

the head scarf law reminds me of communist china. next everyone will be forced to wear a uniform in public....? it just doesn't make sense to me. my mother told me when she was a child all women had to conver their heads in church too.

Nobody is "forced" to do anything, especially in the west. People are free to become Muslims, and when they do, they follow the guidelines given by God. If they don't want to choose that path, they are free to do as they wish (although in the end, everyone will be answerable to God for their decision). So your analogy to Communist China bears no relevance here. The only "force" that is being used is by those who are forcing women to expose themselves and wear the clothes (or more accurately, the lack thereof) of the west!

many people are offended but "when in rome, do as the romans do" right?

But we are not in 'Rome'. Some parts of the West celebrate cultural diversity. They believe people should have the freedom to practice whatever faith and culture they wish. So long as it is not causing any harm, there is no problem. But sadly some of the people who boast about freedom and human rights are the very same who are snatching it away, without valid justification, from their citizens...

[titus]

In the context of the exchange between Kashnowe and Aadil77, Kashnowe implied that "we" exclude muslims and that muslims are hostile towards all americans.

Surely you don't share her view, no?

"We", meaning Americans as a whole, do not exclude Muslims. Just the opposite.

And no, I don't believe Muslim Americans are hostile towards Americans. In fact some of the most pro-American people I know are Muslim.

Sure, there are exceptions. There are Americans that want to exclude Muslims, and there are an extremely small number of Muslims that are hostile towards America and Americans, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

[Woodrow]

"We", meaning Americans as a whole, do not exclude Muslims. Just the opposite.

And no, I don't believe Muslim Americans are hostile towards Americans. In fact some of the most pro-American people I know are Muslim.

Sure, there are exceptions. There are Americans that want to exclude Muslims, and there are an extremely small number of Muslims that are hostile towards America and Americans, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

Although I have only lived in 3 or 4 States as a Muslim I would say that matches what I have experienced. I find more curiosity than anything else.

For some reason in America the 2 groups you would expect to be the most against America (Muslims and Native Americans) seem to be the strongest supporters of America. Possibly some American Muslims do not follow Islam as they should or possibly they see a side of America not seen in the media outside the USA. Strange as the majority of American Muslims are immigrants. But perhaps because they are immigrants they came with an attitude favoring America over their homeland is the reason. Perhaps the demographic of the Muslim population in the USA can give a clue.


Read this, click HERE

Looking at the above link, perhaps the answer is because of the high level of success Muslim Immigrants have had in the USA.

[Argamemnon]

i never said i thought america was right or better. i just wanted to know why the majority of *reported opinions is that we are not good and do not hold the same values that muslims hold dear. i would not choose to live in a satanist colony if i thought they could offer me a better job. lol.

and i'm not saying i don't want muslims here. thats not true at all. and by no means do i wish to generalize the religion based on the extremist views we see on the news. i am fully aware that most muslism are lovely peaceful people. i am fully aware every religion and country has nut jobs.

i don't agree that people have the right to live wherever they want. thats just not true and never was. you can live wherever you want if you destroy the inhabitants and take it over....i.e. war. but you don't have a right to do that. lol if thats true then what the heck are the palestinians and the israelis fighting over?

i don't support the war we are in now.
i have my problems with all governments. havent heard of one being free from corruption yet.

As far as I know, Muslims are not "destroying" the U.S.. rather the opposite is true. Your troops are currently raping thousands of my Iraqi and Afghani sisters. The Muslim world has far more to complain about the western world.

[greenshirt]

When a Caliphate is established insha allah I will move to Muslim lands. In the mean time, I feel that in the Muslim countries there are so many people who wish to interpret laws their own way and implement it. I must say, I feel safer in the west. And I can practice my religion freely alhumdullillah!

Never will pledge allegiance to the USA but I appreciate the rights I am given in this land. :)

[nousername]

Everytime there is an influx of "exotic" immigrants to the US, Americans get all worked up and paranoid that they will "change" the culture, or over rule with their own beliefs. This isn't new at all. It happened to every ethnic group, with exception to English immigrants. Italian, Polish, Japanese, Mexican, etc. all experienced the xenophobia that Muslims are currently going through. This will pass too in time, inshaALlah.

[Argamemnon]

Everytime there is an influx of "exotic" immigrants to the US, Americans get all worked up and paranoid that they will "change" the culture, or over rule with their own beliefs. This isn't new at all. It happened to every ethnic group, with exception to English immigrants. Italian, Polish, Japanese, Mexican, etc. all experienced the xenophobia that Muslims are currently going through. This will pass too in time, inshaALlah.

In reality, most immigrants eventually lose their own culture and become totally Americanized. This happened to hundreds of thousands of Muslims, if not more. There were many Muslim immigrants at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century who came to places like Detroit to work in car factories and eventually became totally Americanized. The real danger is Americanization and westernization.

[FS123]

Well, it has to do with peace and prosperity. I see lot of people from the west moving to UAE for similar reasons: peaceful place, can practice their religion freely, good job/income opportunities, good educational system for children, and good health care system.

[Beardo]

The education system, the freedom...

In America, I feel a huge sense of freedom. I rarely, and i mean VERY rarely, meet those type of people who believe that Muslims and any other non-white ethnicity/group should just go "back home." Yet now, America is my home. I'm American, and I am grateful that my ancestry had migrated here because it provided me with better opportunity, I believe.

I don't believe it would have been possible to make something like Labbayk Academy or Jannah Network in Bangladesh, my home country. Not just because of the Internet connection, but life is different there. Here in America, a "Western" country, I am in that environment of opportunity and possibility.

[Woodrow]

In reality, most immigrants eventually lose their own culture and become totally Americanized. This happened to hundreds of thousands of Muslims, if not more. There were many Muslim immigrants at the end of the 19th century and early 20th century who came to places like Detroit to work in car factories and eventually became totally Americanized. The real danger is Americanization and westernization.

That reminds me very much of what the Chinese writer Lin Yu Tang once wrote.

These words or very similar:

"China can not be conquered as all invaders will always be outnumbered and adapt the ways of the majority. All invaders eventually become Chinese. They have not conquered, they became Chinese themselves."

I see the same happening with immigrants to the USA. They come into America, soon their heritage and culture becomes part of the American culture and before long the immigrants have become Americans ready for the next wave of immigrants.

[titus]

The real danger is Americanization and westernization.

You speak as if being a Muslim and American are mutually exclusive.

[Argamemnon]

That reminds me very much of what the Chinese writer Lin Yu Tang once wrote.

These words or very similar:

"China can not be conquered as all invaders will always be outnumbered and adapt the ways of the majority. All invaders eventually become Chinese. They have not conquered, they became Chinese themselves."

I see the same happening with immigrants to the USA. They come into America, soon their heritage and culture becomes part of the American culture and before long the immigrants have become Americans ready for the next wave of immigrants.

Yes, I agree. Also, let's be frank, most people in the West dislike Islam and Muslims. Hence I don't believe that one can be American (or Dutch) and Muslim at the same time.

[Argamemnon]

You speak as if being a Muslim and American are mutually exclusive.

I don't live in the U.S. but people are becoming increasingly intolerant here in the Netherlands, they shoot at mosques or try to set them ablaze (all of these happened recently). It's hard to call myself "Dutch" when they don't accept my Islamic identity while I've always been a law-abiding citizen.

[Argamemnon]

As for the the thread title, what kind of question is that? OP, why are westerners moving to Turkey and other Muslim countries?

[titus]

Also, let's be frank, most people in the West dislike Islam and Muslims.

That is not my impression of the US, nor the impression of my Muslim friends.

Gallup did a poll this year:

71% of Americans feel little or no prejudice towards Muslims.

Of those that responded negatively the main factor given was Muslim prejudice towards Jews.

I have also seen polls in which Americans say they would be more prone to vote against someone because they are atheist than because they are Muslim.

Also, one of the main factors in the attitudes towards Muslims was whether or not one knew a Muslim. Those that did not know any Muslims were twice as likely to have a negative attitude. I believe that as Muslims and Islam become more well known that the negative attitudes will decline.

Hence I don't believe that one can be American (or Dutch) and Muslim at the same time.

Again, I know many Muslim Americans that would disagree with you (and Rashad who posted earlier).

[سيف الله]

Salaam

You know the saying, there are "Lies, ****ed lies, and statistics".

People can massage them anyway they like. There are plenty of people who hold a less optimistic view than you do. (Repeating myself I know)

Shalom:

What are the significance and extent of Anti Arab racism?

Chomsky

In the United State, its really the last legitimate form of racism. You don’t have to try to cover it up. You may be racist towards other groups, but you have to pretend you aren’t. In the case of anti Arab racism there’s no pretence required. The things I mentioned before are a perfect example. Distinguished Harvard professors produce statements that regard as hideously racist if they were aimed at any other target – Jews: impossible; Blacks, Italians any of them, unacceptable – but if you say them about Arabs, its fine. Jack Shaheen is one scholar whos done a lot of research on images of Arabs in cinema. Its grotesque right up to the present day. There’s not even much to say about it; its open, its considered natural and normal that you should be an anti Arab racist. Nobody will use the term for it, but it’s the kind of attitude and discourse that we regard as hideously racists if it was directed at any other target. Its all over the place.

Achcar:

And anti Arab racism is probably the sharpest form of even something more general, Islamophobia

Chomsky

Well nobody makes that distinction – Arabs, Iranian, Islam its all the same thing

Achcar

Exactly try to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim and monitor the mass media. Its appalling. You get the feeling of being assaulted permanently. I am not speaking of actual acts of racists aggression, the discrimination and all that. I am speaking just about the media. Edward Said touched upon that in Covering Islam. The situation has worsened a lot since that book was first published in 1981, and it reached a peak after 9/11. The sheer quantity of ant Islam insanities and racists categorisations being hurled by people who are in most cases totally ignorant is absolutely horrible. I cant measure the difference between Europe and United States but in any case, in Europe this Islamophobia is a huge and worrying phenomenon.

[Zafran]

salaam

Chomsky

Well nobody makes that distinction – Arabs, Iranian, Islam its all the same thing

Thats the biggest mistake many non muslims make when looking at the mid east

[almahdali]

this question should backlash Westerners again, why do they come to the East during 15th C - 19th C? natives too have the same feeling like what Westerners feel nowadays :)

[Argamemnon]

"In fact some of the most pro-American people I know are Muslim.

They are probably not Muslim, could you define "pro-American"? Does that mean supporting U.S. massacres and aggression in Muslim lands?

[titus]

They are probably not Muslim, could you define "pro-American"? Does that mean supporting U.S. massacres and aggression in Muslim lands?

They are Muslim.

"pro-American" means being proud of what American stands for and the opportunity it brings and the freedoms it allows its people.

It does not mean agreeing with everything that the US government does, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Argamemnon]

They are Muslim.

"pro-American" means being proud of what American stands for and the opportunity it brings and the freedoms it allows its people.

It does not mean agreeing with everything that the US government does, including the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

America (as a state) stands for:

"invasions … bombings … overthrowing governments …
occupations … suppressing movements for social change …
assassinating political leaders … perverting elections …
manipulating labor unions … manufacturing "news" …
economic and political sanctions ... death squads …
torture … biological warfare … depleted uranium …
drug trafficking … mercenaries …"

http://killinghope.org/

Perhaps less pride and more objectivity wouldn't hurt? This of course applies to most countries in the world, but especially to the U.S.

[titus]

By that same token, then, there are those who could equally claim that Islam (as a political state) stands for:

Suicide bombing innocent civilians.... forced conversions.....
chemical warfare.... oppression of women....
dictatorship.... oppression of religious minorities...
assassinating political leaders... torture... drug trafficking....
occupation... manipulating news... death squads...


All of the above, and more, have been done by "Islamic States" and Muslim governments.

So one can judge America or Islam however they like, using whatever criteria. If you are taught to hate America or Islam then you can easily isolate the negatives, ignore all the positives, and claim that is what the whole thing is about.

[Argamemnon]

^Yes and no.

I agree that no state is perfect, that's the part I agree with. However, a lot of people don't realize that there is a major difference between aggressive or less aggressive interventions in other states and some of the issues you mentioned - such as oppression of women within a certain state (which is an internal issue).

Could you tell me for example which countries Iran has attacked in the last 300 years or so? The Turkish-Iranian border hasn't changed since the Treaty of Zuhab (Kasri Shirin) in 1639. There have been no wars between Turkey and Iran ever since. When you compare this to the long list of U.S. state terrorism and wars and aggression you will have to conclude that the U.S. (as a state, because we are never talking about people) is infinitely more aggressive than Iran and has caused terrible human suffering. I honestly can't think of any state that's as aggressive as the U.S. It's almost a history of aggression; not a history of peaceful coexistence and cooperation by any means.

[titus]

You could use the original khalifate as an example then. It had almost continual wars of aggression with its neighbors until it ran out of neighbors it could conquer.

If you want current examples I agree that Iran is not he best example, but let's look at Iraq. In the last 50, not even 300, years they have attacked Israel, Iran and Kuwait. Far more people died in the Iran/Iraq war than in the current war in Iraq, and the majority of deaths in the current war were caused by Muslim on Muslim violence.

Iran is poor analogy with the US in this circumstance since their military power is extremely limited. Instead Iran simply funds and trains other people to do their fighting for them because they cannot handle it militarily. If Iran was more powerful militarily I have little doubt that you would see a large difference in their foreign relations. Simply look at the rhetoric of their president when it comes to Israel. And what other state often leads its people in chants calling for the "death" of another country? Just because the means are not there does not mean that the will is not there.

The Turkish-Iranian border hasn't changed since the Treaty of Zuhab (Kasri Shirin) in 1639.

And the US/Canada border is the worlds longest un-militarized border, and has been in place since 1846. If borders are your litmus test for aggressiveness then the US hasn't been aggressive since the end of the Mexican-American War. So even though Iran and Turkey have shared a border for X number of years is not proof of non-aggressiveness.

However, a lot of people don't realize that there is a major difference between aggressive or less aggressive interventions in other states and some of the issues you mentioned - such as oppression of women within a certain state (which is an internal issue).

But is because of those internal issues that many Muslims move to "Western" countries. In the US they are free to practice their religion however they want, not how the government tells them they have to.

They can also teach their children however they want. You can compare that to Iran which is "revising" what can be taught in their universities because they believe such subjects as women's studies and human rights are too "Western".

In the US Muslims have the freedom to send their children to Muslim schools in which the government does not control the curriculum. They can also home school their children.

It is because of freedoms like this, and many others, that many Muslims are pro-American.

[Zafran]

There is a flaw here with both of your analysis of the mid east - you have to remember that "Iraq", "Iran" and "Turkey" and any nation in the mid east didnt actually exist until the 20th century.

The most intresting examples you give about Iraq as the war against Iran was backed by the US pro saddam Hussien time and the war against Kuwait was anti saddam Hussien time - what war was it against Isreal?

The US has an entire history of proxy warfare - the cold war is a great example of it.

they have many blunders as well - Vietnam, Nicaragua, Iraq with a release of wikileaks and afghanistan where everyone knows that Karzai is corrupt but nevertheless the US support him. Its intresting that there was no muslim on muslims violence before the war on Iraq.......Until the US came along.

In the last 15 years the US has been more aggresive then any nation on earth with radically confusing wars. Whats odd about this is that this is nation that claims to be anti invasion and anti imperialism - its action show otherwise.

Talking about revising education - there was an issue about the text books in Texas I believe where your from where they saw them to be too pro Islam and anti christian.

In the US You can practice your religion however you want and the government wont do anything - but if you try to build a community center near ground zero - expect a war on your hands with the population. Some politicans even used this Issue for there own political gain.

[titus]

Talking about revising education - there was an issue about the text books in Texas I believe where your from where they saw them to be too pro Islam and anti christian.

In the US You can practice your religion however you want and the government wont do anything - but if you try to build a community center near ground zero - expect a war on your hands with the population. Some politicans even used this Issue for there own political gain.

Yes, unfortunately there are idiots in this country who feel the need to impose their religious views on others. The text book advisers in Texas are one of them. They also tend to try and insert their political leanings into the books which I cannot stand either. That being said one could always send their child to a private school of their choosing or home school, in either case those books would not have to be used. Living in Texas when my children start school in a few years I intend to send them to public school, yet be involved in their studies so I can give them a more complete picture.

Don't even get me started on the people that don't want the community center. Unfortunately part of having a country that allows free speech is allowing ignorant people to voice their opinions. You have to take the good with the bad.

There is a flaw here with both of your analysis of the mid east - you have to remember that "Iraq", "Iran" and "Turkey" and any nation in the mid east didnt actually exist until the 20th century.

True, but if you want to go back in history it is quite easy to find Muslim wars of conquest, from India to Spain to Africa and more.

[جوري]

Why do Muslims want to move to "Western" countries?

You'd too many bumpkins who didn't know how to run the show, so they called upon the best minds to come aid them..

BTW Titus.. I am curious as to what you consider 'freedoms' afforded people in the states? Better buckle up the fascist police state has been up & running and your same fellow bumpkins have been giving up their basic rights to protect those so-called 'freedoms' whatever they maybe.. I am certainly curious to have them listed..

best..

[Abz2000]

people were going to iraq and libya to get jobs while most of the people of those countries only ever went abroad on holiday, now iraqis and libyans are fleeing their bankrupt and destroyed countries.
do you wonder why?

here's one for ya:

[جوري]

^^ Riyad is wrong about the number of Dead Iraqis.. try a million and a half!
I also have a better explanation for 911..
but what's their explanation for the first invasion of Iraq? or the bombing of an aspirin factory in Sudan, or the previous invasions of Afghanistan from the 1800's on? or or or or? hmm? I'd like to know.

[Abz2000]

obviously most of us know that 9/11 was an inside job and we can prove it, and we also know they've been caught lying about how many murders they've committed,
but this was an arguement according to their own facts and figures,
useful to anyone who jumps to the term "conspiracy theories".

[جوري]

I am impressed.. I'd really like to know who is the head sitting atop of that pyramid mobilizing all these events for a new world order, a united global govt. where of course '911' is the crux.. their trump card to shut people up should they protest! .. I am starting to believe the anti-Christ is already with us..
I'd like some relevant info. on the dajjal because I am not liking this world I find myself in..

George Soros rears his ugly head here again behind that martial law

[Abz2000]

lol, i remember when the spokesman told the reporter: everyone will have to undergo military training at some point between the ages of X and Y",
the reporter asked: "is it compulsory?"
the spokesman replies: no it's not compulsory, it's errr, required".

[جوري]

I love that use of semantics I ought to take a course in deceptive speech sometimes.. During my grad school I had to master many things outside of medicine including fixing my pathfinder, rotating tires and changing batteries jolting it every other day, fixing the alternator and pulleys .. I don't know why I didn't have enough foresight to take a course in mastering political BS it would have served me well in lieu of passively having my blood boil on daily basis..a cooking course would have been helpful too :hmm:

[Ramadan90]

We can move to any part of this earth we like, no one owns USA or UK or other western countries - not you or your govts. And its true - nearly every muslim country is a mess and we blame no one but ourselves, its because we abondoned our faith. It has nothing to do with 'have our laws not brought prosperity', its about practicing those laws, look back at the islamic khalifate period - there was no nation on earth more prosperous than the islamic empire, it was due to us sticking to our god's command, as soon as we abondoned the command of Allah, Allah abondoned us.

Attachment 4685This.

[CosmicPathos]

OP, memorize this mnemonic for cranial nerves, I`d leave your Western country

Old Oprah Occasionally Trots Triumphantly About, Farting Velveeta Globs, Vaunting Accolades Hysterically

[جوري]

OP, memorize this mnemonic for cranial nerves, I`d leave your Western country

Old Oprah Occasionally Trots Triumphantly About, Farting Velveeta Globs, Vaunting Accolades Hysterically

:haha: that's new.. I am more familiar with the other one.. you know o o o to touch
etc... this one kicks it up a better notch..

[Amigo]

We can move to any part of this earth we like, no one owns USA or UK or other western countries - not you or your govts.

this is not "YOUR" country. Neither your ancestors nor your government bought these lands. These are the common inheritance of human species.

Could we say the same regarding Muslim countries?

[جوري]

Could we say the same regarding Muslim countries?

the mere fact that practically every so-called Muslim country is defiled and invaded by your troops already so says! Pay attention no one enjoys 2nd rate rehetoric!


Best,

[CosmicPathos]

Could we say the same regarding Muslim countries?

you could, Islam allows dhimmis to live in peace in Muslim lands.

[Amigo]

you could, Islam allows dhimmis to live in peace in Muslim lands.

hmmm... Muslim lands...dhimmis ...

[GuestFellow]

Could we say the same regarding Muslim countries?

Yes, but they are restrictions. Like non-Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol or advocate/preach a different religion in public.

[White Rose]

Some Muslims are only Muslims by name(may Allaah guide them,insha'Allaah) and care about their childrens studies and how important it is to raise them in a Western Country . Some are blinded by the few advantages and don't think about the disadvantages which are many.

So true :hmm:. And in some so called Muslim countries, they encourage you to follow western ideas, dress code and allow corrupted transactions to occur.:heated:

[Aprender]

Like non-Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol

Oh but they do. They bring their own booze. There's a non-Muslim lady I know who moved to Saudi Arabia and they have Christmas parties out there too. I don't think it's as bad and restrictive as people like to make it seem.

[Santoku]

:haha: that's new.. I am more familiar with the other one.. you know o o o to touch
etc... this one kicks it up a better notch..

I was taught:- On Old Olympus's Towering Top A Finn And German Viewed a Hop

[yasirslm]

Well I have live in a country where human rights are zero, Human life have no worth ..People kill other People and Police watches the happening without taking any action...Police stations are DUMP, you can't got to police station for filing any complaint as police people are corrupt and demands for money...Political persons have major influence due to their sources and they are the main cause of all violations...Prices of all things are soOOOO high that a common man can't buy them...There is Corruption in every Government sector even to build your own home you will have to pay money for passing of home map other than Government fee. If you will pay corrupt money you will get objection on you home map.....

There are Big Crime gangs which have direct connection with Political persons and no one can't do anything if they commit crime due to their approach.

having said above there a so many thing I can't explain here and keeping in view all these I don't want my children's to grow in such environment so I am planning to move to a western country..

Peace!!!

[~ Sabr ~]

Well I have live in a country where

Pakistan...?

[Snowflake]

I want to move out of the western country I'm living in. Just yesterday I asked my teenage son how he felt about moving to a rural Pakistan (well Saudi won't have us). He said it was fine as long as we didn't live in a hut :skeleton: Wonder what gave him that idea. :S

Pakistani Village Life - A bit too arid for me personally. But love the simplicity :statisfie

[~ Sabr ~]

Pakistani government is corrupt. You'd have to be out of it to live there voluntarily. There is hardly any water, electricity, heat, etc.