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jimbo123
10-09-2010, 12:49 PM
First of all I'll say that if I did move out my parents will be looked after by my older brother who also lives with us (with his wife and kids).

My parents would like it if I stayed for at least the first year of marriage. This makes financial sense. I live in a fairly big house with big bedrooms. But the kitchen, living room and bathroom will be shared.

I personally would like to move out after I get married. I love my family but I'm a very private person and there's certain things I wouldn't be able to do. I don't just mean sex but overall intimacy and joking around (can I shout "Honey I'm home!"?). I'd also like to take on the responsibility of looking after someone and a home.

Soon, I'm going to be introduced to muslim girls for marriage. But I need to have this talk with my parents at some point and I'm not sure the right words to use!

Has anyone else been through this and whatever choice you made, did you regret it?
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'Abd Al-Maajid
10-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by jimbo123
But the kitchen, living room and bathroom will be shared.
I don't know if my post will make sense. I'd like to say one thing, 'but' is a word which erases everything previously said. And Sharing is Caring. :D

If you parents like you to stay with them and you love your parents then stay. If you ask me, I'll never move out off my parents. They cared me so much when I was an unknown quantity. Also living with parents after marriage doesn't mean that they need your help or something, it is akhlaq to stay with your parents. I'd rather stay single if my would be wife asks me to move out.

:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass :embarrass
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jimbo123
10-09-2010, 01:36 PM
I dunno sometimes absence makes the heart grow fonder. There's nothing to stop me from visiting regularly.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
10-09-2010, 01:40 PM
^ You... already moved out.
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jimbo123
10-09-2010, 01:42 PM
No I'm just imagining in my head a life here and a life in another house.
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Muhaba
10-09-2010, 03:11 PM
people should live separately after marriage. If they can't move out, then at least have a portion of the house all to yourselves which contains at least one bedroom, living room, kitchen, and bathroom. This should be your area and other family members shouldn't be able to enter it without your permission. This will give you more privacy and you'll feel like you have control over your lives. It'll be better for you as well as your wife since she needs to feel that she has control over her life. And it's only fair since she had to leave her parents' house. Having a separate area will also be better islamically since she has to cover from your brother since the brother-in-law isn't her mahram.

A lot of women have problems with mothers-in-law and sisters-in-law (husbands' brothers' wives) because they feel they are competing with them, mainly because they live together or because the in-laws don't let the newlywed couple live their lives. But when everyone lives separately and knows their place in the family and noone interferes with the other, theres more harmony and fewer problems. The new wife doesn't feel like she doesn't have a life, like she has to do what others say, etc.

If you have a big house with lots of spare bedrooms, it's easy to separate a portion. Turn some rooms into the living room, kitchen and bathroom. It will cost a bit but can be done. & I think it may even be less costly than renting your own place. Plus your parents will be happy and your wife as well.
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salma777
10-09-2010, 08:22 PM
I'd agree with brother Abdul majid...your parents brought you up your entire life, they have so many rights upon you. your wife should iA understand, there is a hadith that says your in-laws are like your parents. maybe brother you'll only really understand when you are a parent yourself, and the huge amount of sacrifice you make and all the hardships you go through for your offspring and then they run off at the first chance. I'd advise you to stay. you only have one set of parents, whilst there are many many many (maybe too many) women in the world.
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tigerkhan
10-10-2010, 05:51 AM
:sl:
in my sight its v.serious issue.... in both the cases there are some +ives and -ives ....so i think in some conditions living seperate will be better and in some condition living together is best....
eg if u r religious mind and u r family is not.....then probably u r children will get bad habits from ur nephews....so if there is some religious/emmani obligation then u may get seperate home.....
but if just for ur worldy dreams and love etc,,,,,u want to leave ur parents its not good .... think ur parent had sacrificed much when u are baby.....2ndly u have love with family,,,,so obviosly u will get support from them...u r wife will be more safe and secure...u r babies will be in more loves....and i see ppl living seperately have weak personalities of their children..bcz of being alone more the time,,,u r wife and children can be defeated by satan easily....bcz generally men of now a days have much job load and busy.....
so bro its only my opinion that stay with ur parents unless there is some serious problem....
JZK
:wa:
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titus
10-10-2010, 06:02 AM
The main factors would be age, income and the needs of the parents.

I would only recommend staying with the parents if you are very young (in which case I wouldn't recommend the marriage anyway), can't afford it (in which case I would also recommend waiting for marriage, after all if you can't afford a wife you certainly can't afford a child), or if the parents have some physical need to have you there.

Marriages are hard enough as it is with just two people, much less with four or more. I believe that if you aren't ready for independence then you aren't ready for marriage. The two go hand-in-hand.

maybe brother you'll only really understand when you are a parent yourself, and the huge amount of sacrifice you make and all the hardships you go through for your offspring and then they run off at the first chance
I look forward to the day my kids run off ;D
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jimbo123
10-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
people should live separately after marriage. If they can't move out, then at least have a portion of the house all to yourselves which contains at least one bedroom, living room, kitchen, and bathroom. This should be your area and other family members shouldn't be able to enter it without your permission. This will give you more privacy and you'll feel like you have control over your lives. It'll be better for you as well as your wife since she needs to feel that she has control over her life. And it's only fair since she had to leave her parents' house. Having a separate area will also be better islamically since she has to cover from your brother since the brother-in-law isn't her mahram.

A lot of women have problems with mothers-in-law and sisters-in-law (husbands' brothers' wives) because they feel they are competing with them, mainly because they live together or because the in-laws don't let the newlywed couple live their lives. But when everyone lives separately and knows their place in the family and noone interferes with the other, theres more harmony and fewer problems. The new wife doesn't feel like she doesn't have a life, like she has to do what others say, etc.

If you have a big house with lots of spare bedrooms, it's easy to separate a portion. Turn some rooms into the living room, kitchen and bathroom. It will cost a bit but can be done. & I think it may even be less costly than renting your own place. Plus your parents will be happy and your wife as well.
I like this answer a lot because the thing about having control and privacy is a big issue. Whenever I try to explain this to people I can tell what they're thinking "all this guy wants to do is have intercourse all around the house". But it's not, there's loads of random things I've seen. I know a couple where the husband allowed his wife to stay with her mother for a few days but the husbands mother disallowed it. Another example, let's say I want to cook something (Mexican dish) I saw on TV with my wife but everybody else wants a traditional curry, you'd get two different cooks in the kitchen and it makes things a bit awkward.

Islamically, what is recommended? All I know is that you shouldn't break off ties with your family but moving out doesn't mean you are breaking ties with your family!
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أحمد
10-10-2010, 08:14 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
people should live separately after marriage. If they can't move out, then at least have a portion of the house all to yourselves which contains at least one bedroom, living room, kitchen, and bathroom. This should be your area and other family members shouldn't be able to enter it without your permission. This will give you more privacy and you'll feel like you have control over your lives. It'll be better for you as well as your wife since she needs to feel that she has control over her life. And it's only fair since she had to leave her parents' house. Having a separate area will also be better islamically since she has to cover from your brother since the brother-in-law isn't her mahram.

A lot of women have problems with mothers-in-law and sisters-in-law (husbands' brothers' wives) because they feel they are competing with them, mainly because they live together or because the in-laws don't let the newlywed couple live their lives. But when everyone lives separately and knows their place in the family and noone interferes with the other, theres more harmony and fewer problems. The new wife doesn't feel like she doesn't have a life, like she has to do what others say, etc.

If you have a big house with lots of spare bedrooms, it's easy to separate a portion. Turn some rooms into the living room, kitchen and bathroom. It will cost a bit but can be done. & I think it may even be less costly than renting your own place. Plus your parents will be happy and your wife as well.
Theoretically speaking, your theory about harmony makes some sense. In the real world however, the scenario maybe very different. The theory may make more sense to the OP, as he has shown that as the favourable decision originally, but speaking from a position of someone who has seen problems in many families over the past years; I'd have to disagree with living separately to the parents. Abdulmājid has highlighted the matter from its origin, which has more compatibility with Islam than that which you said is Islamically better. On the topic of separate bedrooms; its perfectly reasonable and covers the laws of 'awrah, but separate kitchens is going too far to call it an Islamically better scenario. We must remember that Islam is not a joke to be played lightly in any topic we wish. Allah has set certain limits, as long as these limits are not transgressed; we cannot make up our own version of what is better and attribute it to Islam. Please try to be careful in future; no matter how small a matter is, its unwise to just assume without knowledge that your opinion is what Islam also says. This applies in everything, in these matters it can easily confuse someone who isn't aware of any Islamic rulings, to assume laws of 'awrah to apply to a kitchen.

This isn't the first time I've seen misuse of an Islamic ruling, but I would like to see less assumptions as such, because it does lead to disturbing results over a longer period of time.

You have to consider the difference between something which is compatible, and something which is a ruling. When you say something is better Islamically; it means that this is something which is part of Islam. The meaning portrayed is not necessarily the correct one in all circumstances.

Leaving aside any relation to Islam in this matter; it is considered more practical for those living a western lifestyle to live separately. This is very easy to spot for those living in countries such as the UK, where elderly parents are left at care homes and many youngsters begin to move out after sixteen.

One must be practical in whichever lifestyle one can apply to; as long as the limits set by Allah are not transgressed. Both; living with and moving out have their own ups and downs. Neither is haram, nor is one more Islamic than the other; staying with parents is more compatible under the criteria stated by Abdulmajid, while the same can be said for what has been stated by Muhaba.

:wa:
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M.I.A.
10-10-2010, 08:42 PM
iv been married for nearly three years and am still living with my parents,
you and the mrs have your whole lives to get to know each other, so its not all that bad to have family around.
also its better to have support when the arguments happen lol :omg:

when you have children for the first time its kinda hard for new parents and all the love in the world is no substitute for good technique on the little things...and your parents will obviously know what to do.
also living with parents allows you to hopefully save some money for the future and give you a good base to build on.

hopefully your parents can strengthen you during the hard times so overall i would say stick around for a while or untill they kick you out lol
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S.Belle
10-10-2010, 11:20 PM
im not married so i have no experience with somehing like this.....but i suppose there are pros and cons when living with your parents while you're married.
Probably not alot of privacy and the feeling of having your own.
but look on the positive side of things
when you have kids and need a babysitter there are plenty around
always someone to give you advice or talk to
your wife would have someone to help her cook/clean and adapt to being a wife (want be as stressed)
your kids would grow up surrounded and smothered with love

also maybe you should ask your older bro for advice, what are his feeling on being married and still living with your parents, was it a good choice, does he plan/ desire to move...you know get a basic idea from someone who's going thru what you are asking and since he is your bro you know he will help and give you great advice.
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Zafran
10-10-2010, 11:40 PM
salaam

it depends on your culture - I know some cultures find it shocking if people move out of there parents house - whilst other cultures see it as a normal transition in life - both also have practical implications - such as if you moved out it would be better in the sense of space for children, privacy etc - but if you stayed then it would be easier to look after the parents, get help from them etc. You also have to see what the wife thinks and how her relationship is with the parents and your family.

peace
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Muhaba
10-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



Theoretically speaking, your theory about harmony makes some sense. In the real world however, the scenario maybe very different. The theory may make more sense to the OP, as he has shown that as the favourable decision originally, but speaking from a position of someone who has seen problems in many families over the past years; I'd have to disagree with living separately to the parents. Abdulmājid has highlighted the matter from its origin, which has more compatibility with Islam than that which you said is Islamically better. I didn't write that living separately was more islamic. I wrote: Having a separate area will also be better islamically since she has to cover from your brother since the brother-in-law isn't her mahram. On the topic of separate bedrooms; its perfectly reasonable and covers the laws of 'awrah, but separate kitchens is going too far to call it an Islamically better scenario. separate kitchens will be better especially in case there are brothers-in-law living in the same house because if the wife has to share the kitchen she'll have to wear her hijab/abaya in the kitchen as well or she'll have to keep the kitchen door closed which may be impossible if it gets too hot. it'snot practical to wear the abaya while working in the kitchen and one may even have to wear body-hugging clothes, pull up their sleeves, etc. when working in the kitchen, cleaning etc. We must remember that Islam is not a joke to be played lightly in any topic we wish. Allah has set certain limits, as long as these limits are not transgressed; we cannot make up our own version of what is better and attribute it to Islam. Please try to be careful in future; no matter how small a matter is, its unwise to just assume without knowledge that your opinion is what Islam also says. This applies in everything, in these matters it can easily confuse someone who isn't aware of any Islamic rulings, to assume laws of 'awrah to apply to a kitchen.

This isn't the first time I've seen misuse of an Islamic ruling, but I would like to see less assumptions as such, because it does lead to disturbing results over a longer period of time.

You have to consider the difference between something which is compatible, and something which is a ruling. When you say something is better Islamically; Whether living separately is more islamic or not, i didn't say it was. Please read what a person wrote and try to understand it before you throw accusations. in fact if you'd read right, you'd have seen that i wasn't even talking about living separately. I provided a compromise between living totally separately and living in the same house but having a separate area, which is possible in the OP's case because he said he had a big house with lots of bedrooms.it means that this is something which is part of Islam. The meaning portrayed is not necessarily the correct one in all circumstances.

Leaving aside any relation to Islam in this matter; it is considered more practical for those living a western lifestyle to live separately. This is very easy to spot for those living in countries such as the UK, where elderly parents are left at care homes and many youngsters begin to move out after sixteen. actually in the Arab world newlyweds have a separate house from the first day of marriage. Only in the south asian culture the new wife is expected to live with the in-laws and only have a single bedroom to herself. she has to share the house with brothers-in-law and their wives and has no privacy. The whole lifestyle is unislamic, because she has to walk around in front of her brothers-in-law without abaya (burka) and even has to serve them food, etc. Additionally it causes difficulties as her father, brothers, and uncles may not be able to visit her because they are non-mahram to her sisters-in-law.

One must be practical in whichever lifestyle one can apply to; as long as the limits set by Allah are not transgressed. Both; living with and moving out have their own ups and downs. Neither is haram, nor is one more Islamic than the other; staying with parents is more compatible under the criteria stated by Abdulmajid, while the same can be said for what has been stated by Muhaba.

:wa:
see my comments in red.

you have to be considerate toward women's feelings and needs as well. We need a place of our own after marriage. Nowhere does it say in the Quraan that we should live with in-laws. It's true that one should accompany their parents but that doesn't mean the wife/husband has to be forced to live with in-laws or that they can't have a separate area in the house, especially when the parents aren't old or when there are other children present in the house.

having a separate area is much better because it makes it easier to follow the Islamic rules of hijab. there's a hadith that states that the husband's brother is equal to death. so it's extremely necessary that the wife isn't alone in the house with her brother-in-law but such circumstances may arise when she has to live in the same house and share the kitchen, living room, etc. You can't expect her to be locked in her room all the time.

to those who wonder why i usually don't use personal pronouns (I, we) it's because of journalist style. while studying journalism, i learned that the reporter should be invisible, so that's why usually my writing doesn't contain I, we, us.
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distressed
10-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Islamically i aint 2 sure whats correct, were i am theres free mixing between the families anyway, so cant advise there. but what about getting a place close by ? even next door ?? i know loads of people that have done this, in fact 1 of our neighbours has children owning nearly half the houses in the street. you get to keep close contact with your family and get private space also. personally I think it would be difficult to share with other people, esp strangers...and like some1 mentioned above, theres also the chance of clash of personalities esp wen theres more than 1 woman in the kitchen.

D
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أحمد
10-11-2010, 03:04 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
see my comments in red.

you have to be considerate toward women's feelings and needs as well. We need a place of our own after marriage. Nowhere does it say in the Quraan that we should live with in-laws. It's true that one should accompany their parents but that doesn't mean the wife/husband has to be forced to live with in-laws or that they can't have a separate area in the house, especially when the parents aren't old or when there are other children present in the house.

having a separate area is much better because it makes it easier to follow the Islamic rules of hijab. there's a hadith that states that the husband's brother is equal to death. so it's extremely necessary that the wife isn't alone in the house with her brother-in-law but such circumstances may arise when she has to live in the same house and share the kitchen, living room, etc. You can't expect her to be locked in her room all the time.

to those who wonder why i usually don't use personal pronouns (I, we) it's because of journalist style. while studying journalism, i learned that the reporter should be invisible, so that's why usually my writing doesn't contain I, we, us.
My point wasn't about your style of writing from a journalism view; it was about the philosophy behind it, clearly its yet to be understood correctly. As I pointed out in the last paragraph:

One must be practical in whichever lifestyle one can apply to; as long as the limits set by Allah are not transgressed. Both; living with and moving out have their own ups and downs. Neither is haram, nor is one more Islamic than the other; staying with parents is more compatible under the criteria stated by Abdulmajid, while the same can be said for what has been stated by Muhaba.
The problem is when guesswork is attributed to Islam in such a way that one indicates towards it as if it is part of the deen.

As for living under one roof; there are many examples from the Sahabah and the Tabi'een on its practicality and compatibility with Islam. This doesn't mean I should say such is better Islamically just based on those few examples. Saying something to be preferred as better Islamically means to say Allah and His Prophet :saws1: like prefer it like that. Unless you are to know for certain that it is the case; it is unwise to make assumptions based on western philosophies.

I am not saying its bad to live separate, but what I am saying is it isn't good to directly or indirectly give false reference to Islam on any matter just to make it seem like the better decision. This is why I said Islam isn't a joke.

:wa:
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Muhaba
10-11-2010, 04:34 PM
I don't think you understood what I wrote. Maybe you don't understand english well?
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Farjana
10-11-2010, 06:45 PM
I agree with sister Salma777 wise words Mashallah :)
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أحمد
10-11-2010, 10:14 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
I don't think you understood what I wrote. Maybe you don't understand english well?
I understand English very well :Alhumdill; that's not the issue here.

You may ignore my advice about not refering such assumptions; clearly you are thinking from a western philosophical view with some emotional backing. Try to take advice as advice, rather than rushing towards arguments to defend a philosophy, especially as its clear that such a philosophy has no favourability in Islam in the way you stated.

If you still feel angry; use the post reporting feature () provided or the ignore list () from the profile page. Try to keep an open mind whenever using philosophies as your source of argument; no matter how many human beings get together, mankind cannot measure up to the knowledge provided by Allah through their philosophies.

:wa:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-12-2010, 09:25 PM
:sl:

This is an interesting topic, and it's something Ive been thinking about for a while. The conclusion I reached is that it depends on each person's situation, understanding of the parents, the girl you marry, and the culture of the place you are from, have been brought up and live and that there is no set rule on what you should do. As long as you're in line with the Islamic guidelines, then there is room to adapt to your particular situation.

Coming from a family where my parents didn't stay with their parents after getting married despite that being the cultural norm, only because they got married and got themselves halfway around the world, but having retained those cultural understandings of the daughter in-law moving in with the in-laws, its a tough situation to balance. Myself, having grown up in a society where the guy and girl DO move out when they get married and wanting that for myself because it's part of the culture I identify with is a tough situation to deal with. I'll be honest, I'm sure every guys wants to experience living alone with his wife and being able to come home from work and be able to kiss his wife at the door without having to wonder if his parents are close by or if they're watching. I don't think it's selfish on their part, they're not denying their rights and the major sacrifices they've made. That's not the issue. The point is, as I see it, as long as he's taking care of them and fulling his obligations towards them, even if they're living right next door, then I don't think it's wrong for him to live in a place by himself with his wife. The problem, however, comes in when the parents start emotionally blackmailing the child based on cultural norms and saying things like, 'If you move out with her, then you're no longer my son.' and other similar statements which are very inconsiderate and wrong.

Having spoken to many people who have been married for a while now and some having their wives living with the parents and others living separately, I realized that it really is tough to balance the rights of the parents and the rights of the wife if you get them to live together, especially if the girl you marry has not grown up back home. She wants to have her home with her husband and she is completely right in wanting that as that's her right to have. So these brothers tell me that their wives find it tough to live with the parent in-laws and a lot of time it's the small things that she has to deal with. She wants to be able to live her way with her husband, she doesn't want to have to cover her chest every time she steps outside of the bedroom (i.e. with a scarf etc, desi people, dupatta), and sometimes there is tension between what the two parties want. And the brothers themselves feel like they can't for a lack of a better word, enjoy, those intimate moments because of the possibility of being over heard or seen etc. They can't argue when they need to because if they get over heard, then people will start assuming and getting into the private affairs of the couple. So there are a lot of issues to think about.

I think at the end of the day, us being brought up where we've been brought up, our parents need to understand our culture and where we're coming from when we say that we want to live with our wives. It's not that we don't care about them, but its that we're trying to balance everything on our plate.

So it really is a multi-faceted issue. You need to be able to balance fulfilling the obligations towards your parents as their rights on you are very great, and along with that, the rights of your wife and her rights are very great too. She's leaving her family and her secure abode to come and live her life with you and you cannot take that for granted. So, in your situation figure out what each party wants, what you want, and how you're going to go about fulfilling your obligations towards each party. Since you're not an only son, this will, insha'Allaah, be of some ease to you. Discuss this openly, respectfully and clearly with all the parties involved.
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nousername
10-13-2010, 02:30 AM
I have read this on islamqa.com and it states that women have a right to separate accommodation away from in-laws and co-wives:

The wife has the right to live in separate accommodation with her husband and children, and not to share it with anyone, whether it is a father, a mother or a relative.
This is the view of most of the Hanafi, Shaafa’i and Hanbali fuqaha’. She also has the right to refuse to live with his father, mother and siblings.
Al-Kaasaani said in Badaa’i al-Sanaa’i (4/24): If the husband wants to make her live with her co-wife or in-laws, such as the husband’s mother or sister or daughter from another wife or his relatives, and she refuses to do so, then he has to accommodate her in a separate house, because they may annoy her or harm her if they live together, and her refusal is an indication that she is being bothered or harmed. And because he needs to be able to have intercourse with her or be intimate with her at any time, and that cannot be done if there is a third person living with them. End quote.
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah favoured the view that if the husband is poor or unable to provide separate accommodation for his wife, she does not have the right to ask for something he is unable to give. This was narrated from him in Mataalib Ooli al-Nuha (5/122). Rather she should bear it with patience until Allaah gives him the means.
To sum up, separate accommodation is the wife’s right, even if she did not stipulate it in the marriage contract, and she has the right to ask for it now, and she is not regarded as being wilfully defiant because of that. The commonly held view among some people, that this is creating division among siblings, is not true, because this is a shar’i right of the wife, and it serves the interests of both spouses, because it prevents free mixing and guards them against looking at things that are not permissible. It is unfortunate that in many shared family homes, a man may look at his brother’s wife, and they may shake hands or be alone together, which may lead to jealousy, envy, disputes and separation. There may also be arguments because of the children. Undoubtedly a man is a stranger (non-mahram) to his brother’s wife, so it is not permissible for him to shake hands with her or be alone with her or look at her, unless he is a mahram to her through some other means, such as breastfeeding.
The one who looks at shared family homes will be certain of the wisdom of what the scholars have said, that a wife should have her own home, because in many of these homes there are problems and differences between the spouses and between a man and his brother, and between the wife and her husband’s mother, and so on, as well as the many evils and things that go against Islam.



source: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/94965
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jimbo123
10-14-2010, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by distressed
Islamically i aint 2 sure whats correct, were i am theres free mixing between the families anyway, so cant advise there. but what about getting a place close by ? even next door ?? i know loads of people that have done this, in fact 1 of our neighbours has children owning nearly half the houses in the street. you get to keep close contact with your family and get private space also. personally I think it would be difficult to share with other people, esp strangers...and like some1 mentioned above, theres also the chance of clash of personalities esp wen theres more than 1 woman in the kitchen.

D
Yup my plan is to move out but live really close by. Clash of personalities is one thing but also I think it would also be really difficult to show affection towards one another when there's someone in every room.
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jimbo123
10-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



I understand English very well :Alhumdill; that's not the issue here.

You may ignore my advice about not refering such assumptions; clearly you are thinking from a western philosophical view with some emotional backing. Try to take advice as advice, rather than rushing towards arguments to defend a philosophy, especially as its clear that such a philosophy has no favourability in Islam in the way you stated.

If you still feel angry; use the post reporting feature () provided or the ignore list () from the profile page. Try to keep an open mind whenever using philosophies as your source of argument; no matter how many human beings get together, mankind cannot measure up to the knowledge provided by Allah through their philosophies.

:wa:
I think she gave some good reasons to support her argument. I mean, it makes sense.
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jimbo123
10-14-2010, 01:43 PM
Thank you nousername (for the IslamQA reference) and Muraad for your thoughts.
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Banu_Hashim
10-14-2010, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid

I don't know if my post will make sense. I'd like to say one thing, 'but' is a word which erases everything previously said. And Sharing is Caring. :D

If you parents like you to stay with them and you love your parents then stay. If you ask me, I'll never move out off my parents. They cared me so much when I was an unknown quantity. Also living with parents after marriage doesn't mean that they need your help or something, it is akhlaq to stay with your parents. I'd rather stay single if my would be wife asks me to move out.

:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass:embarrass :embarrass

In what way is it akhlaaq? I'm just asking because personally my parents would prefer I have a house of my own, and establish myself - My mum is very particular about this, lol... she doesn't want me hanging around. They don't want me to go through the hardships they went through. For them, that would make them happy. Obviously they would want me visitng with their grandchildren inshaAllah!
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أحمد
10-15-2010, 05:40 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by jimbo123
I think she gave some good reasons to support her argument. I mean, it makes sense.
She presented a valid opinion, but the reasoning used to support it wasn't entirely valid. Islamically its neither worse, nor better.

:wa:
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Muhaba
10-15-2010, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by jimbo123
I think she gave some good reasons to support her argument. I mean, it makes sense.
he didn't read it write. but his posts were amusing.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



She presented a valid opinion, but the reasoning used to support it wasn't entirely valid. Islamically its neither worse, nor better.

:wa:
Islamically when there are non-mahram in-laws present it is better and that's what I had written in my original post.
Reply

أحمد
10-21-2010, 03:59 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
he didn't read it write. but his posts were amusing.



Islamically when there are non-mahram in-laws present it is better and that's what I had written in my original post.
Neither my posts are for your amusement, nor is the matter of separate kitchens within the laws of 'awrah in Islam. Laws of 'awrah are not based on philosophies, they are faraaid (maktoob). When mixing your own philosophies with Islamic laws; its not valid to pass your on philosophy as the law or part of the deen itself.

:wa:
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Muhaba
10-21-2010, 04:20 PM
whatever is your problem? I don't care what your intention was when writing those posts. separate kitchens are necessary when you have brothers-in-law in the same house since the wife can't be around them without islamic dress nor can she be expected to wear abaya / niqab in the kitchen. in fact, the wife should never live in the same house with in-laws when there are brothers-in-law living in the same house. And another member already posted from a n islamic site that separate accomodation for the wife was her islamic right, so stop giving unislamic rulings regarding this matter.
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أحمد
10-21-2010, 04:27 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
whatever is your problem? I don't care what your intention was when writing those posts. separate kitchens are necessary when you have brothers-in-law in the same house since the wife can't be around them without islamic dress nor can she be expected to wear abaya / niqab in the kitchen. in fact, the wife should never live in the same house with in-laws when there are brothers-in-law living in the same house. And another member already posted from a n islamic site that separate accomodation for the wife was her islamic right, so stop giving unislamic rulings regarding this matter.
The wife has the right to request it; that doesn't mean there's anything Islamic about her request. If you think its Islamic; show some evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. Otherwise stop passing your own philosophies as "Islamic".

Islamic laws do not require the existence of an indoor western modern kitchen.

:wa:
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nousername
10-21-2010, 04:33 PM
many prominent scholars have ruled that the wife does have a right to separate accomodations that include a private bedroom with a lock, her own kitchen and her own bathrooom. the husband has no right to force her to live with his inlaws unless she accepts that arrangement.
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أحمد
10-21-2010, 04:40 PM
:sl:

The wife does have the right to request to live separately, but this action is mubah, not mustahab. There are people who think its Islamically a better or preferred action (mustahab), which isn't really the case.

:wa:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-21-2010, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

Islamic laws do not require the existence of an indoor western modern kitchen.

:wa:
:w:

Interesting discussion. True, there is no explicit text or law that says she needs a kitchen but isn't that more so because the texts are general to accommodate the different situations and times the people live in?

For example, doesn't the text say,

وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ

And that 'urf can change according to time, place, culture and situation of the person and his abode of living? So a woman can say she wants to have a separate kitchen for an Islamic reason, i.e. that she wants to stay away from the brother in-law and she wouldn't be wrong in asking that. Also, it would be part of 'urf as well if that's the culture of the land she lives in.

Islamic laws do not require the existence of an indoor western modern kitchen only because not everyone wants that or needs that and to require it would be a burden on the people. But Islamic law does require a husband to give proper accommodation to his wife and 'urf plays a role in that accommodation. So while the specific example might not be in the text, the general directive does exist and is left up to the time and location of the parties in the contract.
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أحمد
10-21-2010, 05:04 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Muraad
:w:

Interesting discussion. True, there is no explicit text or law that says she needs a kitchen but isn't that more so because the texts are general to accommodate the different situations and times the people live in?

For example, doesn't the text say,

وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ

And that 'urf can change according to time, place, culture and situation of the person and his abode of living? So a woman can say she wants to have a separate kitchen for an Islamic reason, i.e. that she wants to stay away from the brother in-law and she wouldn't be wrong in asking that. Also, it would be part of 'urf as well if that's the culture of the land she lives in.

Islamic laws do not require the existence of an indoor western modern kitchen only because not everyone wants that or needs that and to require it would be a burden on the people. But Islamic law does require a husband to give proper accommodation to his wife and 'urf plays a role in that accommodation. So while the specific example might not be in the text, the general directive does exist and is left up to the time and location of the parties in the contract.
The wife can request the separation to make it "more convenient" or "easier" for her, which is acceptable under the grounds being discussed. She may also request it without any reason at all, which again is acceptable. This however is the wifes preference, and in no way does Allah or Rasulullah's :saws1: preference change along with her's. This is the confusion I have been trying to clear up. The action falls under mubah; where we drag it towards mustahab, it creates room for confusion, and external philosophies.

:wa:
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Muhaba
10-21-2010, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



The wife has the right to request it; that doesn't mean there's anything Islamic about her request. If you think its Islamic; show some evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. Otherwise stop passing your own philosophies as "Islamic".

Islamic laws do not require the existence of an indoor western modern kitchen.

:wa:
Show evidence for what? that it's necessary for her to get separate accomodation where she won't have to be around the brothers-in-law and won't have to be forced to wear hijab all the time? Didn't the Prophet (SAW) say that the brother-in-law is death? stop accusing me of passing my own philosophies as islamic and stop pretending to have islamic knowledge when you don't. you're the one passing your own philosophies as islamic and you don't even have islamic manners.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-21-2010, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

The wife can request the separation to make it "more convenient" or "easier" for her, which is acceptable under the grounds being discussed. She may also request it without any reason at all, which again is acceptable. This however is the wifes preference, and in no way does Allah or Rasulullah's :saws1: preference change along with her's. This is the confusion I have been trying to clear up. The action falls under mubah; where we drag it towards mustahab, it creates room for confusion, and external philosophies.

:wa:
Yes, you're correct provided there are no external factors effecting the issue. Generally, the action will be mubah - but when there is a need the ruling on the action can change, according the time, place and situation, and it can go up to mustahab or even higher, depending on the situation.

A ruling is not static but is relative to the person who needs it, and his situation and predicament. The ruling has to be pertinent to his reality and needs to properly and adequetly address his concerns - which is why, even if the base of this action is mubah, it can change according to the person it is being applied to.

Originally Posted by muhaba
Show evidence for what? that it's necessary for her to get separate accomodation where she won't have to be around the brothers-in-law and won't have to be forced to wear hijab all the time? Didn't the Prophet (SAW) say that the brother-in-law is death? stop accusing me of passing my own philosophies as islamic and stop pretending to have islamic knowledge when you don't. you're the one passing your own philosophies as islamic and you don't even have islamic manners.
I think I get the miscommunication happening here.

Ahmed Waheed is speaking about a static situation - where there are no external factors effecting the action - at which point it probably is just mubah. It is neither disapproved nor recommended.

Muhaba is speaking about a situation which has external influence, i.e. the brother in-law at home, where the wife can be a fitnah for him or he be a fitnah for her - at which point the action to get her her own place can potentially change from being mubah to mustahab or perhaps even higher because of the new variable added into the situation.

Both of you are right, but since you're speaking about different situations I think you keep missing each others points.
Reply

أحمد
10-21-2010, 08:26 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Muraad
Muhaba is speaking about a situation which has external influence, i.e. the brother in-law at home, where the wife can be a fitnah for him or he be a fitnah for her - at which point the action to get her her own place can potentially change from being mubah to mustahab or perhaps even higher because of the new variable added into the situation.
The reason for separation is justified as a neutral action. This however doesn't mean the action becomes mustahab; mustahab is something which Allah and Rasool :saws1: have specified as being so. If an action seems practically better for certain people within a specific situation and given time; it doesn't mean it has become mustahab. The wife may request separation for her own convenience; that itself isn't something which is encouraged or discouraged in Islam.

:wa:
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Muhaba
10-22-2010, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Muraad

I think I get the miscommunication happening here.

Ahmed Waheed is speaking about a static situation - where there are no external factors effecting the action - at which point it probably is just mubah. It is neither disapproved nor recommended.

Muhaba is speaking about a situation which has external influence, i.e. the brother in-law at home, where the wife can be a fitnah for him or he be a fitnah for her - at which point the action to get her her own place can potentially change from being mubah to mustahab or perhaps even higher because of the new variable added into the situation.

Both of you are right, but since you're speaking about different situations I think you keep missing each others points.
Brother Muraad, that is what I have been saying all along. Brother Ahmed Waheed didn't read my post right.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

The reason for separation is justified as a neutral action. This however doesn't mean the action becomes mustahab; mustahab is something which Allah and Rasool :saws1: have specified as being so. If an action seems practically better for certain people within a specific situation and given time; it doesn't mean it has become mustahab. The wife may request separation for her own convenience; that itself isn't something which is encouraged or discouraged in Islam.

:wa:
Brother Ahmed Waheed, I don't know where you got the idea that I said living separately was islamically mustahaab. No where did i say it was.

My original post was a reply to the OP who wanted advice in particular circumstances, where his family want him to live with them after marriage and he wants to live separately. The OP has a brother-in-law in the same house. The house is big, with many rooms.

So I suggested he turn some rooms into a kitchen, bathroom, living room, and bedroom and separate that area so others can't enter it without permission.

I wrote:

Originally Posted by muhaba
people should live separately after marriage.
Did I write it was mustahab islamically?

Originally Posted by muhaba
If they can't move out, then at least have a portion of the house all to yourselves which contains at least one bedroom, living room, kitchen, and bathroom.
Originally Posted by muhaba
Having a separate area will also be better islamically since she has to cover from your brother since the brother-in-law isn't her mahram.
Here I wrote that it was islamically better because she has to cover from the brother-in-law.

So, brother Ahmed Waheed, before you lash at others, read and understand what the person has written.

This is my last post to you, insha-Allah.
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أحمد
10-22-2010, 03:53 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by muhaba
Here I wrote that it was islamically better because she has to cover from the brother-in-law.

Originally Posted by muhaba
This is my last post to you, insha-Allah.


Its more convenient for her, not "islamically better" or worse.

:wa:
Reply

Cabdullahi
10-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
Show evidence for what? that it's necessary for her to get separate accomodation where she won't have to be around the brothers-in-law and won't have to be forced to wear hijab all the time? Didn't the Prophet (SAW) say that the brother-in-law is death? stop accusing me of passing my own philosophies as islamic and stop pretending to have islamic knowledge when you don't. you're the one passing your own philosophies as islamic and you don't even have islamic manners.
Ouch! another hijab pin was poked in the eye


Can i say something....if you live in the UK just get another house man!....the houses here are so small and if the wife lived with her in-laws it would be extremely difficult...you have to squeeze through the doors...one bathroom means long queues in the morning....it just isnt gonna work
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أحمد
10-22-2010, 04:08 PM
:sl:

Yes, its more about the practicality and convenience, including location and culture.

:wa:
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Ibn Abi Ahmed
10-22-2010, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

The reason for separation is justified as a neutral action. This however doesn't mean the action becomes mustahab; mustahab is something which Allah and Rasool :saws1: have specified as being so. If an action seems practically better for certain people within a specific situation and given time; it doesn't mean it has become mustahab. The wife may request separation for her own convenience; that itself isn't something which is encouraged or discouraged in Islam.

:wa:
:w:

Generally, yes. But not necessarily all the time, it can change according to the specific situation.

It might be mubah for person X to work someplace, but if that place has fitnah which will hurt the person working there (imaan or otherwise), then I don't think the ruling on that person working there will remain mubah - it will change, either to makrooh or haram for the specific person due to his circumstances. That's what we're talking about, a specific situation during which the ruling can change. That's the thing with Islamic Law - as long as the fundamentals are solid, then there is room for adaptation to individual circumstance in terms of the actual specific application of the ruling.
Reply

أحمد
10-22-2010, 11:24 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Muraad
:w:

Generally, yes. But not necessarily all the time, it can change according to the specific situation.

It might be mubah for person X to work someplace, but if that place has fitnah which will hurt the person working there (imaan or otherwise), then I don't think the ruling on that person working there will remain mubah - it will change, either to makrooh or haram for the specific person due to his circumstances. That's what we're talking about, a specific situation during which the ruling can change. That's the thing with Islamic Law - as long as the fundamentals are solid, then there is room for adaptation to individual circumstance in terms of the actual specific application of the ruling.
This is why Islamic law sets limits for certain things, rather than a a thin line to tread.

:wa:
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S_87
10-23-2010, 01:51 PM
tbh it depends on ur wife, some can make this arrangement hell and unbearable.

personally i think its the first year of marriage that a husband and wife need most privacy, talk to your parents and see what they say, maybe they want u to move out? Of course it also depends on their health, when they get sick in old age thenthats different
Reply

jimbo123
10-26-2010, 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by S_87
tbh it depends on ur wife, some can make this arrangement hell and unbearable.

personally i think its the first year of marriage that a husband and wife need most privacy, talk to your parents and see what they say, maybe they want u to move out? Of course it also depends on their health, when they get sick in old age thenthats different
I haven't spoken too much with mum (dad is dead). But I know she wishes I stay for a year at least. Of course it's my choice and I do want the privacy in the first year. If I have children it might be the only year I get privacy!

I honestly think I'd make a better husband if I lived alone with my wife
Reply

أحمد
10-26-2010, 09:45 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by jimbo123
Has anyone else been through this and whatever choice you made, did you regret it?
To answer your original question:

I know people who have "regretted" and those who haven't regretted moving out, and some who didn't move out but think they should have done so.

The matter isn't always as simple as "I want, so I do". Its something which involves a family discussion and a decision, where the entire family has a voice towards the decision and knows exactly what you want and your views.

Another factor to consider is if your decision may bring a sense of loneliness to your parent(s). I'm not talking about religious rulings here, but some common things which are seen in today's society. Parent(s) work hard; feed, clothe and nurture their child. Child grows up, dumps parent(s) into a care home and lives "his life". The same repeats for the next generation and the next.

A similar case is where the parents cared for a child throughout his early years. When he grew up and got married; he stopped speaking to his parents. The house was then separated into two sections, the smaller section for the parents, the larger section for the boy and his new family. A day this summer his mother fell ill, had no cool water to drink, nor can her husband move around much without collapsing. The old man wanted some water for his ill wife, so he knocked on his son's door. His daughter-in-law told him to go away, they have no water. The daughter-in-law's eldest child later checked and found plenty of cool water, and wanted to take some for her grand parents.

Even if you don't live with your parent(s), keep in mind that they do exist and they do have their rights over you as you do over them. There are some who live under the same roof, yet they forget to respect the rights of their parents, while others living far away remember and respect those rights. So, do not think that living with or away from your parents will necessarily affect you in the sense of their rights. The example about the woman in need of water is one where they all live in one house.

:wa:
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Yanal
10-27-2010, 12:28 AM
:sl:

I have no intention in doing so,insha'Allaah but I still have a few years left..
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jimbo123
10-27-2010, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:
The matter isn't always as simple as "I want, so I do". Its something which involves a family discussion and a decision, where the entire family has a voice towards the decision and knows exactly what you want and your views.

Another factor to consider is if your decision may bring a sense of loneliness to your parent(s). I'm not talking about religious rulings here, but some common things which are seen in today's society. Parent(s) work hard; feed, clothe and nurture their child. Child grows up, dumps parent(s) into a care home and lives "his life". The same repeats for the next generation and the next.
If I were an only child and my parents had no one to look after them I would NEVER consider moving out. My mum definitely isn't alone as she has son, daughter in law and grandchildren living with her.

I understand what you mean though - it's wrong to break ties with parents. I know of someone who moved out after he got married and keeps no contact with his parents. I despise this kind of person. If I were to move out my intention inshallah is to visit regularly and give financial support.
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