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h-n
10-10-2010, 02:02 AM
They ask to see proof that Allah exists (when already explained about test in Show me, show me, but we're humans-now in h-n reflection thread) BUT they have shown that when they have seen something, they are biased and still being ignorant.

For example

1. Crop Circles

They have seen crop circles and cannot still agree to what caused them.

2. UFOs

Also there are plenty of UFO sightings, BUT they claim that the photos of some are something else, so they refuse to accept what is in the photograph which they agree some are genuine, but still have not agreed to what the photograph is of, whether it be a UFO or not. Calling people liars, when people have not considered the evidence, of course not all people who claim to have seen UFOs are uneducated etc, there is no need to call people liars, and if they have seen something else, then you should be able to confirm by now what those are.

SO why don't the Atheists tell us here of what they have done with the above two issues, on 100% tell us of what is going on (not 60% on one sided argument and 40% on the other, but what has been really going on 100% of the above two) in both of those issues.

Of course surely after what you have seen, you should be able to tell us what are behind those two issues. IF YOU CANNOT SAY 100% OF WHAT CAUSES THEM, DO YOU NEED TO SEE ANOTHER CROP CIRCLE/UFO? Of course not as they have received so many.

As we only live here for a short amount of time, and they certainly have had plenty of time to look at the issues. You say you only believe what you see, then surely you should be able to tell us 100% what they are (when we believe that Devils are accountable as per the "Devils" thread).

So instead of wasting time asking to see something else, show us what you have already done with what you have already seen (what is the point of asking for something else, when you have already ignored what you have already seen, including signs everyday of rainfall etc). :D I believe that Scientists have proven they are biased, for example in their hypothesis they choose to ignore that Devils are involved, now they show an image of being imparitial, but they already choose to ignore the issue of Devils existing.

Even look at what happened with Stephen Hawking incident, he recently said that the Universe had always existed. Where other Atheists had rejected, but why did they reject this? They claim that Stephen Hawking is intelligent (when intelligent is about saving yourselves from Hell), but what is there problem with him now, are they going to say find another Scientist to say he is more intelligent then Stephen Hawking to counteract an argument that the Universe had not always existed?? They have proven that they don't read on Science (and as per "No such things as Atheism"), they choose to side with anyone and anything that rejects the truth of Islam. They have shown how biased they are. Yes, they don't have to listen to anyone, but they chose to go against him because they did not have the desired conclusion so already being biased on what they are after and not the truth.

DO NOT DERAIL BY TALKING ABOUT HOW SCIENCE WORKS ETC, JUST ANSWER WHAT 100% CONCLUSION YOU HAVE COME TO WITH THE ABOVE TWO EXAMPLES.


:popcorn:
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titus
10-10-2010, 05:49 AM
Crop circles have been proven to be a hoax. Only a few random wackos still believe that aliens caused them, especially since the men who made the first crop circles have admitted to it along with those who made many others.

UFO's are a variety of things.

I don't understand your logic here or exactly what point you are trying to make.

After all, even if I said I had no idea what caused crop circles how would that in any way lead me to become a Muslim?
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Al-Indunisiy
10-10-2010, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Crop circles have been proven to be a hoax. Only a few random wackos still believe that aliens caused them, especially since the men who made the first crop circles have admitted to it along with those who made many others.

UFO's are a variety of things.

I don't understand your logic here or exactly what point you are trying to make.

After all, even if I said I had no idea what caused crop circles how would that in any way lead me to become a Muslim?
She attempts to make an analogy between people's (read: atheist's) skepticism towards UFO's & Crop Circles and their saying on the position of Iblis*. From that she attempts to show their hypocrisy.

*From another thread some atheist member post the difference between their position and Iblis'. On account that Iblis has already seen God and interacted with him (probably still does so), so Iblis does not believe in God, instead he knows him. And thus the difference between atheists and Iblis. Atheists claim that if they see and interact with God(just like believers will do in Judgement Day), then they will believe/know. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the last sentence.)
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h-n
10-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Thanks for showing that Atheists just brush off anything, that shows yes their hypocrisy, NO they haven't agreed to what causes crop circles which have also happened well in the past, yes some people were caught, but they still have not explained what causes plenty of others as well as UFOs.

Yes this is about Atheists wanting to have proof before they believe, but they have already been shown that even when they see something (they haven't even looked into crop circles, UFOs properly studying the issues, just brushing over the issue), they still with their ignorance brush it off, no matter how interesting issues have been, no matter how many times they have shown themselves, as they are too engrossed with how they want the life to be, they do not look at issues with an unbiased prespective. How poor in their being and responses. How pathetic they claim to be thinkers, when they are unintelligent.

Iblis does not have interaction with Allah, but does seek information from those in high stations.

Anyhow taking a break, hopefully others can see that Atheists are just liars, liars and liars, who Allah has stated reject the truth.
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Trumble
10-10-2010, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
they haven't even looked into crop circles, UFOs properly studying the issues, just brushing over the issue
Whereas all muslims, of course, have made in depth studies of those vital issues that are far too important to living a good, happy and informed life to just 'brush over'?!

"they do not look at issues with an unbiased perspective"
Whereas, of course, you do? Excuse me while I collapse laughing... :rollseyes

How poor in their being and responses. How pathetic they claim to be thinkers, when they are unintelligent.
Because they disagree with the cogitations of your towering intellect? I hate to burst your arrogance bubble but the dfferences between theists and atheists are in beliefs and opinions, not intelligence.
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h-n
10-10-2010, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Whereas all muslims, of course, have made in depth studies of those vital issues that are far too important to living a good, happy and informed life to just 'brush over'?!



Whereas, of course, you do? Excuse me while I collapse laughing... :rollseyes



Because they disagree with the cogitations of your towering intellect? I hate to burst your arrogance bubble but the dfferences between theists and atheists are in beliefs and opinions, not intelligence.
Post amended

Burst my bubble?? No, if you really had something to say, then you would have answered post 1!! What matter of fact conclusion have they come to.

Of course I live a lot better then you do (anyhow what is your problem with suffering as are you forgetting that is mentioned in Buddhism?), I have helped others, and as specified in another thread, I do not run a religious group and tell others not to live, I respect even my family members doing what they want in this world, but I am HERE to talk about Islam, in an Islamic website !! So of course your only going to see this one side (and not my personal life), of course your so unintelligent you haven't thought of that!!!

WE DO NOT Differentiate between the inhabitants of Hell-fire (whatever you want to call yourselves as)!! The test is one that Allah has set, to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell! You don't get different laws that you have to follow, so regardless of what you may think, if you don't think of what contains in the Quran you are plain stupid.

Allah sends you to one Hell, so if you do not repent, you will be going to the fires of Hell, with the likes of Pharaoh, Satan, and other non-Muslims.

Your not clever when you get thrown into Hell-fire, and see then, on the Day of Judgement were we both are, and you will only be saying that Islam is correct.

Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims, they have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!

Prophet Moses peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims,
have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!

Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him NEVER said that it was OK for non-Muslims to be non-Muslims,
have to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell!

You have said NOTHING by your posts, and your only showing to people that you have NOTHING to say and that if you were alive at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him, you would have drowned with the rest of the sinners!

Buddhist are in error, full of idol worship, they say they don't worship a God, but happy to make idols and talk of many different Gods, the focus is on self-value, why look at yourselves more? Did you create yourself??? Surely why not look at who has created you and the Universe? They claim to be enlightened, but going to the Hell-fire. Who is going to save you from the fires of Hell? If they say there is God of the Universe?

They say they change into different forms and are cycles-then who changes you into the difference creatures??? If there is not God of the Universe to do that?? Just a FARCE!! You call yourself intelligent. Somebody's going to change you and your part of the Universe, because you sit there looking at your pitiful existance rather then as Muslims do look towards our Lord, the ONE.

Buddhist = self value, self worship when they cannot create their own food, make the rain fall, change their own form to another. So who is going to change your form? It magically happens? They don't worship the Lord of the Worlds, and someone else exists to be able to do that?? There is only one God, hence why the Universe runs so well.

:bump1:


You do NOT have anything to do with the rest of the Universe, typical just as Scientists (in the No such thing as Atheism thread) were looking at what the rest of the Universe means to them, rather then what saying it belongs to Allah.

I do NOT have anything to do with other planets, let alone this one, the trees, the fishes etc, how in error, and arrogance they truly are! How awful, if you were so connected to the Universe the Universe would not even be the way it is today, it would not even exist, the beauty of other planets, the stars, they worship Allah, the Lord of the Universe, the Master on the Day of Judgement.


Prophet Jesus peace be upon him -Buddhists do NOT have a Male better then him no wonder some are having to speak highly of him, but still in error when they do not repent and become Muslims. They rather talk a bit about him, but leave out the fact that everything he is, is because he was created by the one God, Allah!

Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him - Buddhists do NOT have a Male better then him.
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Ezekiel_B
10-12-2010, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
DO NOT DERAIL BY TALKING ABOUT HOW SCIENCE WORKS ETC, JUST ANSWER WHAT 100% CONCLUSION YOU HAVE COME TO WITH THE ABOVE TWO EXAMPLES.
If you want a 100% answer to what UFOs are, without any mention of the scientific process of elimination, then the only answer I can confidently give you is:

Unidentified Flying Object

-------------

The problem is, there is no 100% answer currently available to that sort of question - and I think you know that.

Tell me - what is it, exactly, you're hoping to achieve by asking that?
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Ezekiel_B
10-12-2010, 04:03 PM
You see, if you're not sure of the process by which a set of ideas begets a theory; what a theory actually is and how one can evolve with time - then it's likely you won't understand why or how scientists could disagree. Is that something you would like help to understand? If so, I will do my best to help, but not if I am going to be accused of 'derailing a thread' by merely explaining the basis of your problem.
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Ezekiel_B
10-12-2010, 04:19 PM
Perhaps I should amend that, by asking: how do you envision a 100% explanation for UFOs and crop circles is going to help you with the question of whether god exists or not?
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Ezekiel_B
10-12-2010, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Indunisiy
She attempts to make an analogy between people's (read: atheist's) skepticism towards UFO's & Crop Circles and their saying on the position of Iblis*. From that she attempts to show their hypocrisy.

Oh, so that's what it is! Well, it's certainly an attempt. One which I would have to give an 'e' for effort.

*From another thread some atheist member post the difference between their position and Iblis'. On account that Iblis has already seen God and interacted with him (probably still does so), so Iblis does not believe in God, instead he knows him. And thus the difference between atheists and Iblis. Atheists claim that if they see and interact with God(just like believers will do in Judgement Day), then they will believe/know. (Correct me if I'm wrong on the last sentence.)
So what's the devil got to do with flying saucers? Is she trying to say they're related or something?
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Gator
10-12-2010, 06:31 PM
Just a quick aside. For me, its not just about a lack of evidence I would find compelling that makes me an atheist (though its a part of it), but also I don't find the definition or premise of most gods a compelling basis to explain how things are.

If you came to me with a definition of a god that seemed TO ME plausible, coherent in framework and was a better explanation to me of how the world worked than anything else, I would definitely give you the benefit of the doubt.

As for the OP, the problem would be that I don't really have to be 100% sure about something to dismiss it. You can't go around researching everything with 100% certainty (which would be the Truth, which is of course, unknowable) as it would be a waste of time. You start at the premise and if it sounds reasonable, you research the facts and evidence and then, based on your limited knowledge (as all knowledge is), you take your best shot. If new evidence or arguments emerge, you revisit your conclusion.

Crop Circles - No interest. Easily faked, so I don't care.
UFOs - A little more interesting. A lot of hoaxes or misunderstandings, plus from what I know of Interstellar travel, really unlikely.

Thanks.
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Ezekiel_B
10-12-2010, 06:33 PM
Well, that sounds reasonable!
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czgibson
10-12-2010, 07:18 PM
Greetings,

I'm having trouble following the logic in the original post, probably because I'm extremely unintelligent. Maybe someone could clear this up:

What do crop circles and UFOs have to do with atheism, and why should atheists all be expected to share a definitive explanation for them?

Peace
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 08:17 PM
What I think she was saying, czgibson, is that atheists insist on being shown proof of God's existence and yet shy away from proof of other paranormal things. A rather sweeping blanket statement, at that (not to mention how much doubt there is for the veracity of crop circles and UFO sightings), but no more hateful or ignorant than any number I've seen from atheists.
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sister herb
10-12-2010, 08:23 PM
I think kind of statements don´t help anyone (who is not muslim yet), looking for more information about Islam:

hopefully others can see that Atheists are just liars, liars and liars, who Allah has stated reject the truth.
Before than I became muslim, I was atheist too but I was lucky when I didn´t meet muslims at that time whose would only repeat to me how big liar I was but just muslims whose were kindly and patient to tell me more about Islam, not just judge me at that time.

And sorry, also I am so unintelligence to get meaning of atheism and UFOs.
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czgibson
10-12-2010, 08:58 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
What I think he was saying, czgibson, is that atheists insist on being shown proof of God's existence and yet shy away from proof of other paranormal things. A rather sweeping blanket statement, at that (not to mention how much doubt there is for the veracity of crop circles and UFO sightings), but no more hateful or ignorant than any number I've seen from atheists.
I think atheists ask for evidence of god's existence; demanding 'proof' would probably be asking too much. It may be true to say that many atheists tend to be sceptical about paranormal activity in a similar way to their being sceptical about god. Having said that, I can't see how the fact that atheists discount or disagree about the evidence for paranormal activity in relation to crop circles or UFO sightings makes it wrong (or stupid) of them to ask for evidence about god from theists.

The original poster's issue stems from the fact that believers and non-believers typically have different criteria for evaluating evidence. What I see as convincing evidence for natural selection may not convince you; the scripture that sets out your religious beliefs may not be convincing to me. There's no sense in calling each other stupid simply because we disagree. We should be happy to let each other to believe what we like, as long as we don't start hurting other people over it.

On your last point, I've seen plenty of hateful and ignorant comments from all sides over the years; I'm sure we can all agree that they help nobody. The trouble is, people often can't tell they're being hateful or ignorant until others point it out to them, and they may not respond positively to that message. And so it goes on...

Peace
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
I think atheists ask for evidence of god's existence; demanding 'proof' would probably be asking too much. It may be true to say that many atheists tend to be sceptical about paranormal activity in a similar way to their being sceptical about god.
More often than not, from what I've seen. Apparently it's just a mindset for most of them.

Having said that, I can't see how the fact that atheists discount or disagree about the evidence for paranormal activity in relation to crop circles or UFO sightings makes it wrong (or stupid) of them to ask for evidence about god from theists.
The OP, I think, was saying that they reject all the evidence available in one case while insisting on more of it in the other. I never said that I agreed.

The original poster's issue stems from the fact that believers and non-believers typically have different criteria for evaluating evidence. What I see as convincing evidence for natural selection may not convince you; the scripture that sets out your religious beliefs may not be convincing to me.
True (except that I have no problem with natural selection, though please let's not open up that hackneyed can of worms again). The only real problem is if anyone's particular idea of evidence is itself unreasonable, like a religious person using their own scripture as inherent proof of itself in a circular way instead of first starting with an external reason to believe it in the first place (you know, like evangelists toting 1 Timothy 3:16 as proof of the Bible's inerrancy), or atheists demanding scientific proof of a thing like God which could never ever be scientifically proven or disproven.

There's no sense in calling each other stupid simply because we disagree. We should be happy to let each other to believe what we like, as long as we don't start hurting other people over it.
If only more of us had that attitude.

On your last point, I've seen plenty of hateful and ignorant comments from all sides over the years; I'm sure we can all agree that they help nobody. The trouble is, people often can't tell they're being hateful or ignorant until others point it out to them, and they may not respond positively to that message. And so it goes on...
...until we have a message board on our hands. :P

EDIT: In all fairness to the OP, I have sometimes seen instances of skeptics apparently dismissing paranormal claims just on general principles and considering them hoaxes without showing any evidence for their own claim in turn. For instance, everywhere I've ever read about the phantom leaf phenomenon in skeptical literature it is just glossed over with a mere assertion that the pictures are faked.
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Lynx
10-13-2010, 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
I think kind of statements don´t help anyone (who is not muslim yet), looking for more information about Islam:



Before than I became muslim, I was atheist too but I was lucky when I didn´t meet muslims at that time whose would only repeat to me how big liar I was but just muslims whose were kindly and patient to tell me more about Islam, not just judge me at that time.

And sorry, also I am so unintelligence to get meaning of atheism and UFOs.
Well you must not be following h-n's arguments closely then! You were never an atheist; you were just a liar before and when you converted to Islam you basically decided to not lie anymore about your disbelief in God. According to h-n :)
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Ezekiel_B
10-13-2010, 04:55 AM
I'm very glad to see not every muslim here is supportive of h-n's twisted logic. Following her posts, it appears she is here for the purposes of flaming and spreading hatred towards anything she perceives non-muslim. It's not a good example to be setting for her fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. I came here in the good faith we can all share a common ground of humanity and, owing to some of you, I'm not altogether dissapointed.

Thanks.
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sister herb
10-13-2010, 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Lynx
Well you must not be following h-n's arguments closely then! You were never an atheist; you were just a liar before and when you converted to Islam you basically decided to not lie anymore about your disbelief in God. According to h-n :)
Liar? Me? Ooops... :omg: So seems me too don´t understand kind of logical thinking. I better return to post and discuss only about Palestine and human right matters. They are more simple. There are bad guys and good guys, international laws and no UFOs.

:skeleton:
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Muezzin
10-13-2010, 09:52 AM
While I can see what the first post is driving towards, I do not think crop circles and UFOs are the best examples to use.

I also don't see why somebody would believe devils are involved in making crop circles. They're really not that hard for ordinary people to make if they know what they're doing. Crop circles and UFOs are not required to prove God's existence anyway - there is evidence enough in places such as the Quran and the natural world. Because everyone has free will, it is up to each individual what to make of such evidence.
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h-n
10-14-2010, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Ezekiel_B
I'm very glad to see not every muslim here is supportive of h-n's twisted logic. Following her posts, it appears she is here for the purposes of flaming and spreading hatred towards anything she perceives non-muslim. It's not a good example to be setting for her fellow brothers and sisters in Islam. I came here in the good faith we can all share a common ground of humanity and, owing to some of you, I'm not altogether dissapointed.

Thanks.

How pathetic!!! Proven that non-Muslims as I have already mentioned willing to dismiss anything, biased, they can't even prove what causes crop circles and UFOs and they want proof for something else. If they can't come to a conclusion with this, then what can they prove when they see something??

Also How laughable!!!! "Setting me up against other Muslim" They are WRONG! So are you! If you feel so comfortable that they are set up against me then simply get them to dismiss the following statements, and I AWAIT FOR THEM TO DO THIS!!!!! :bump1:. AS I stand by that all Atheist are LIARS!!;--

1. Allah himself has stated that people reject the "TRUTH" not something that they did not know. "Of course Allah is not going to send someone to Hell for something that they didn't know"

2. People claim they didn't know about God, but actually it rather that they did not make their lives about Islam. Whatever they do in this world, they are aware that there are people who worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. So its rather that they are so engrossed in living their life that they choose to ignore Islam, just as a person goes on holiday and they don't want to hear about the Day of Judgement as they look for the life of this world.

3. All Prophets when preaching the message of Islam, told people to REPENT ON THE FIRST DAY!! Now if Islam meant so little to people then why would the Prophets Noah, Lut, Jesus, Moses peace be upon them etc tell people to worship Allah the FIRST DAY? AS it was normal, and the non-Muslims were avoiding the truth for the life of this world!

4. No Prophet called any non-Muslim who rejects Islam a "good person"

5. No Prophet ever said that people who reject Islam really don't know the truth,

-Prophet Noah peace be upon him NEVER said that people genuinely don't accept the existance of Allah, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell etc.

6. All the Prophets said that everyone SHOULD be worshipping the one God, remember the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and Hell. Yes, they were not forced to become Muslims, as it is their choice, but no Prophet ever said to people to wait and repent tomorrow, after you thought of what I am telling you, as the truth is plain to see, and everyone should be worshipping the one Go.

7. What people like "Sister harb" should remember that Islam and the Quran does not change, she should listen to as above what Allah has stated NOT listen to the excuses of evil people and lie to others about her condition when being an Atheist. As simply put let her refute this;-

-She is getting confused with for example with people who ignore Islam and people REJECTING Islam.


Ignoring Islam

As again if someone is going on holiday, they are still aware that in this world that people worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell, that various Prophets have been sent. They are busy looking for the life of this world that they ignore the Mosque, the ignore looking towards Allah. This is the state of ignorant people, there are NO excuses for being this way, people would look back and say they needed more help, but again we don't make people Muslims, they are being tested, they are eating the food that Allah has provided but they neglect to worship him. These people are not called innocent as they do the same things as people who reject Islam openly, as they too ignore Islam, and make Islam a part of their lives.

Rejecting Islam

This is a step further from people who ignore Islam. As those people just don't care to think about Islam, so may not go as far as saying they believe or not, but people look at Islam, there is one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell - and say that God does not exist, that is a MAJOR SIN. IT is EVIL (Major sins are not just about murdering someone).

Allah does not accept either conditions, it is NEVER acceptable for a person to be a non-Muslim! Not any day. Your not going to be treated as a child, etc.

Allah has NEVER said it was acceptable, understandable it wasn't the person's fault for not being Muslim. It is their fault.

Allah has NEVER said that people genuinely reject Islam because they don't know its true, if that was the case, then you would not be tested this way. OF course Allah has taken many people into the next world and they have died in state of ignorance and rejecting the truth, getting drunk, being on drugs even, they are not innocent. Do you really think that their conditions that all the people that died last year are so different to the people that are alive today?? They have the same test and how they respond to Islam whether ignoring it and rejecting Islam is the same. THey go to Hell together.


I stand by using the crop circles, UFOs examples, and neither would Allah ignore what they see or hear, as even Allah mentions they see the rain, the sun, many foods, the milk they gain from cows so ignoring all this and rejecting Islam is a SIN. They are not able to make excuses to Allah on the Day of Judgement why they ignored so many signs and if they are so truthful of being shown something, why have they not come to a clear conclusion on what they are when they did see something. :bump1:

No one gong to Hell is called "clever", non of the Prophets said that people who were rejecting Islam had sense.

So instead of thinking that Islam teaches what sinful people wish it to be , then wait for Sister harb etc to refute the above points (, for which she should remember that Islam is not brought down to how sinful people want it to be, but sinful people to repent and say they were wrong for not looking, worshipping Allah earlier and become better as Muslims, so move up not bring Islam down to what sinful people would want it as! I am not going treat people as if they are children, when they have NO excuses and Allah has provided them with so much. :bump1: Unless Sister harb is saying that Allah has not given them enough??? When he has, again it is not upto us to personally be there for them on their journey to Islam, you are asking for someone to do that, when you have to do it yourself, even the Prophet did not hold hands with people so they would repent! :bump1:

It does not embarrass me when people say they repented when speaking to "Nice Muslims" as why didn't you repent before as Allah was being nice to you all that time. I am only hear to talk about Islam and not actively here for non-Muslims, and as per the "I am not going to talk to you" thread, Sinners being destroyed and a good job too thread, I am NOT changing in how and what I write. I am never going to treat people as if they never received anything from Allah, after all the wars, disasters, etc it is a joke, that people see fit to call themselves as innocent when they don't repent. I am happy with all that I have written, see people on the Day of Judgement if they dispute, but they are liars, liars, and liars. I will be taking a long break now, and for those Muslims that are giving the impression that non-muslims genuinely don't know about Islam, when they have heard of one God, the Day of Judgement and in Paradise and hell, should sort themselves out, as that is NOT what Allah has taught you. Listen to Allah first instead of sinful people and accepting their excuses for your past misdeeds as well! There is NEVER a genuine reason why a person (Allah NEVER said it was OK for a person to be a non-Muslim at anytime) did not involve Islam in their lives. and I am not treating you like if you are children in terms of talking to you differently.

Some other threads that I have written covering test;-

Collapse of these countries (covers test)
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134298161-collapse-countries-today.html

The last three of these threads talks about being tested and why I am never going to treat the non-Muslims as if the are innocent etc.

Sinners being destroyed and a good job too!
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134298756-sinners-being-destoyed-good-job-too.html

Non-Muslims turning to Islam
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134298693-non-muslims-turning-islam.html


Non-Muslims and Islam
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134298331-non-muslims-islam.html
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IAmZamzam
10-14-2010, 12:02 PM
So this thread is really about exclusivism then, h-n?

Apparently the skeptics in that other thread aren't the only ones who need to be filled in on taqlid or whatever it's called; such an explanation is quite a desideratum with you as well.

The scriptures tell us: the bare physical facts of everything that happens in this world are predetermined, and this includes our own outward behavior. As a result, we have free will yet not free action (except insofar as the exercise of our will is, merely technically speaking, itself a sort of action). We can still have free will when our worldly actions are all predestined (before God made the world at all, no less) because our will is the only part of us that’s free. Allah decides everything we end up doing in life; we decide whether we do it willingly or unwillingly, sincerely or insincerely. And therefore it is of course only for effort that we are graded for the hereafter on this great test called life because the only meaningful A’s (or F’s) would have to be for effort alone, for intention: it’s the only part of the test that we fill in ourselves. You’ll notice a certain virtual irrefutability in the doctrine existing simply by way of it being the only belief on these matters that makes perfect sense and ties everything together with perfect consistency: God remains fully in control of our lives while we still remain individuals; the essential, preverbal, almost moment-to-moment subjective experience of our free will is not ludicrously branded an “illusion” yet the undeniable influence of external factors on our behavior is not denied either; and we still have the power of choice without being the least bit capable of altering God’s design in any capacity, or in the most miniscule degree.

You remember that hadith about how Allah will confront people who say things like, “I died a martyr for you,” and respond, “So you did; so it was ordained,” and thrust them face first into hell? Logically, it must go the other way too. If people ignore and reject Islam then that is only because Allah has made them do so, as the Koran repeatedly says. Ergo, even the most intellectually slothful, intellectually dishonest, without-excuses kafir may, if he fights against his nature and is a better person deep down inside, see salvation.

Do you understand now?
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h-n
10-15-2010, 12:20 PM
How absolutely stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!! To say that Allah makes people reject Islam. They wrong themselves, he wrongs them not, their hearts get sealed AFTER they reject Islam, they stay deaf, dumb, blind BUT only after rejecting, rejecting Islam, they wanted to live in this world so much being evil, so be careful what you ask for and what you want, but they ABSOLUTELY rejected KNOWINGLY THE TRUTH!!

1. Allah has stated in the Quran that they "wrong themselves" he wrongs them NOT!! The test is that they are able to choose the RIGHT path, which they are aware of just as the people at the time of Prophet Lut peace be upon him were the homosexuals said that he was telling them to be good, pure. So the homosexuals knew the right path.

Even Pharaoh rejecting the truth, he accused the Prophet Moses peace be upon him of doing magic, so he is happy to believe in magic but not Allah's power?? AS Atheists have shown they are rejectors of truth, they are liars, liars and liars!

Do you forget so plainfully, that Allah is Merciful, Compassionate? Do you think that if he "made" someone evil that he would send them to Hell if it was not their fault?? Of course he does NOT!! He sends them to Hell as it was their fault!!! :bump1:

-the reaction is how dare they be evil, Allah is not criticising them because "he made them evil" as you put it,
-Allah is not sending them to Hell because they "couldn't help being evil"
-they are being sent to Hell because it was their FAULT of being evil!!
-they are being sent to Hell as they have no excuses, they could have made it to Paradise, but chose the path to Hell fire.

2. Even Allah has said they receive the fruits, and rain etc, but because they are too comfortable with receiving so much, they see this as trivial,, when do they not think that how many kinds of berries, apples, pears, and there are peas, potatoes, cucumbers etc that this world contains. So even Allah has not failed to mention this in the Quran and will not fail to mention this on the Day of Judgement as the test does not change and he does not change what he judges us by. So on the Day of Judgement every Atheist will be told;-

-you received pears and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,
-you received apples and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,
-you received rain and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,
-you received honey and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,
-you received coffee beans and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,
-you received sugar and it was sinful that you did not become Muslims,

So even the Atheists being told on the Day of Judgement that they have received the rain, fruits is ample and they should not have rejected the truth, they have received so much in this world and yet do not give thanks.

What did you think happened to the people that got taken by the flood at the time of Prophet Noah peace be upon him?? That Allah drowned the because they "couldn't help being rejectors of the truth"?? :bump1:

Do you think that Allah sends people to Hell because they "genuinely" do know about the existance of Allah and the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell?

As Allah stated it was sinful that they received so much, but still rejected the truth. Nothing will be left out on the Day of Judgement!!

What else do you think the Atheists will be told on the Day of Judgement??? As above they had no excuses to be evil. No atheists will ever get away with stating their lies that they "did not know" that Allah existed, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.

Will add some people do think of the issue at hand, ie, when someone goes and reads something, learns something, they wish they had the opportunity to do this earlier, or even mention that they wished they met that teacher earlier on to give them the help they need, people are treating repenting to Allah the same thing, when it is NOT, as the test is simple, understandable, people can see they will die, the world is limited, there is the one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell, so it isn't that they needed something else from Allah, but for them to make time in their lives to think about Islam (that was missing). OF course all that time, whose food did they think they were eating, all the water they had, the day and night they were receiving, everyday they were willing to take and eat from what Allah has provided, but not willing to spend their time in thought in Islam? TRUST ALLAH, HE PROVIDES A FAIR TEST, AND PEOPLE NEEDN'T BE CONCERNED IF YOU THINK OTHERS ARE INNOCENT, AS ALLAH TESTS THEM FAIRLY, AND THAT REMEMBER THEY WILL BE SENT TO HELL FOR REJECTING THE TRUTH, SO PLACE YOUR TRUST IN ALLAH. You are being tested on what you can do, achieve NOT about receiving attention, motivation from others, you are being tested individually, Allah is testing you on being good, not whether someone else makes you a Muslim.

Nothing will be left out on what they seen and heard, even Allah has mentioned about Pharaoh accusing the Prophet Moses peace be upon him doing magic-happy to accept magic but not the power of Allah, just as Atheists today, happy to say the Universe has come about itself, but not that it was created by Allah etc.

You quote anything, as others instead of reading the Quran first and letting other people's "prespectives" take over, there is no prespective in Islam, there is only one religion, Allah is not judging us on different laws, the test is simple. As I stated in "Sinners being destroyed and a good job too" thread. The people being sent to Hell could not get away with saying that Allah created them, and were responsible for their misdeeds, Allah is testing them, he is , JUST, WISE!!

It will be made known to all of them that they have received so much in this world, and to the people of Hell fire, if you really think they are speakers of truth-how can they be speakers of truth when the reject Islam, but if you really believe they are telling the truth, then wait then for the Day of Judgement and they will not be standing by what they have said except admitting that they were want of living in this world and lied, lied and lied.
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h-n
10-15-2010, 12:23 PM
Atheists remind me of prostitutes, no matter how many times a prostitute tries to justify her lifestyle she knows she can't stand up to marriage, a goodly life, and she just goes BRIGHT RED :mad:, FRUSTATED :grumbling, that she has nothing to say to try and justify her lifestyle in response to what Allah has taught us!!!!!!! :D
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h-n
10-15-2010, 12:29 PM
I am not going to be here for the rest of the year now. So take care everyone, and don't be fooled by what non-Muslims say, listen to what Allah has taught you in the :Koran:.

I thank the Moderators for allowing me to post and to others on this forum for taking the time to read them.

Thank-you. :muslimah:

Sister h-n
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DavidK565
10-15-2010, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
Atheists remind me of prostitutes, no matter how many times a prostitute tries to justify her lifestyle she knows she can't stand up to marriage, a goodly life, and she just goes BRIGHT RED :mad:, FRUSTATED :grumbling, that she has nothing to say to try and justify her lifestyle in response to what Allah has taught us!!!!!!! :D
Crazy people just keep popping out of the woodwork. Its very disheartening.

Let me be blunt: Who the hell are you to presume you know the Truth? You have no right to feign superiority, to insult those who do not adhere to your line of thinking. If you're a religious person, a major part of your religion is based on "faith". "Faith" means that you believe in something, or trust it to be true. It does NOT mean that you have the ANSWER. You can believe you do, but that is as far as it goes. Otherwise, you know "The Truth", and NO ONE knows The Truth but God, right? A major aspect of all religions (supposedly) is showing humility. One must acknowledge others and their beliefs; they must realize that while they THINK they are doing the right thing and are on the right path, they will never KNOW. That is Faith.

Atheists are not refusing to accept Allah or God. They simply don't believe he exists. You can not actively reject something that doesn't exist. Atheists could be wrong too, just as those of faith are. But to suggest that Atheists are like "prostitutes" is absurd. There are rational explanations for nearly all things, outside of God's influence, and they are allowed to live that way without being looked upon as an inferior specimen, or someone who willfully lacks enlightenment.

Learn to respect others. Realize that while your understanding of the universe works for you, it does not have to work for everyone else. Your beliefs are the truth to you, but it is not absolute.
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IAmZamzam
10-15-2010, 08:02 PM
Since sister h-n isn't going to be with us, is there anyone else who seeks further elucidation or comment?
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czgibson
10-15-2010, 08:38 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by h-n
Allah does not accept either conditions, it is NEVER acceptable for a person to be a non-Muslim! Not any day.
Who knows, h-n, you might come back and read this or you might not:

Although I disagree with you, I fully support your right to believe what you like, as long as it doesn't lead to harming others. I view you as a fellow human being, and I hope that the life you've chosen brings you happiness.

Peace
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Ezekiel_B
10-16-2010, 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Allah does not accept either conditions, it is NEVER acceptable for a person to be a non-Muslim! Not any day.
Hmm... A religious extremist. How old are you and how long have you been in the UK, h-n? I'm interested to know what sort of education you've had, so far.
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Ezekiel_B
10-16-2010, 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by h-n
No one gong to Hell is called "clever", non of the Prophets said that people who were rejecting Islam had sense.
But I don't want to go to heaven if it means spending an eternity with people like you.
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Ezekiel_B
10-16-2010, 02:26 AM
And the most pitiful part of this is that you can't even stay on topic in your own thread! So far, we've shot from demanding a 100% answer to UFOs and crops circles, to the day of judgement and all that entails... and in so doing, we all have to witness you getting drunk on your own rhetoric! If you want to talk about how scientists come to conclusions about pictorial and anecdotal evidence of unexplained phenomena, then do so... and I will do my best to have an intelligent and civil debate with you... but please... do try to keep your little toothbrush moustache out of it. Okay? It's NOT attractive.
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sister herb
10-16-2010, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ezekiel_B
But I don't want to go to heaven if it means spending an eternity with people like you.
Neither I even I am muslim!

Roses to h_n again:



Take a deep breath of them and think what kind of image about Islam you actually give about your posts in here!

Your islam is not religion of peace, mine is.
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Ezekiel_B
10-16-2010, 04:23 PM
Can you back that up with a picture of kittens? That often helps calm them down. :)
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Muezzin
10-16-2010, 05:05 PM
Okay. The thread starter has said she will not be posting for a year, and meaningful discussion seems to have broken down in this thread. I'm going to close it for now.
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