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imran123
10-10-2010, 11:26 AM
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?
Reply

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Dagless
10-10-2010, 11:49 AM
You'd be better off posting this in a Christian forum since this is a bible quote.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-10-2010, 01:38 PM
I don't know which is more wrong, your christian friend who asked a muslim (if you are one) about a bible verse,
or you asking about a bible verse in an Islamic forum.


That would be like me asking about the meaning of Ayatul Qursyi to a christian friend, who in turn goes to a christian forum to ask about it.
Reply

ardianto
10-10-2010, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?

format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

CHRISTIANS CLAIM SPIRIT IS GOD
HOW TO PROVE THEM WRONG.
WHICH SPRIIT IS TALKED ABOUT IN THIS VERSE.
Two similar posts in two different threads.
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PouringRain
10-10-2010, 02:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Two similar posts in two different threads.
He actually posted it three times, but the first thread was deleted, that is why I said what i said in his other thread. Maybe if the mods have no objections, they can delete one of his threads and move the other to comparative religion?
Reply

جوري
10-10-2010, 05:19 PM
the verse means he is haunted by a ghost and shouldn't sleep with the lights off..

peace
Reply

PouringRain
10-10-2010, 05:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
the verse means he is haunted by a ghost and shouldn't sleep with the lights off..

peace
In isolation it certainly sounds like it. :giggling:





To the OP:

The passage is speaking about God and his spirit. The word "spirit" in that passage and context refers to the invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature. The questions posed are rhetorical in nature-- where can I go, where can I flee? The answer is nowhere, because God is everywhere. If you read that entire Psalm, then the context becomes quite clear. It is a beautiful Psalm.

Yesterday, your deleted post on this topic, was asking about the "Holy Spirit". You said your Christian friend says this is the Holy Spirit in this passage. I think the problem you are having is with his use of the term "Holy Spirit" and the idea that this is the third part of the trinity. Am I correct? If you put out of your mind the term "holy spirit" and "trinity" then would you have a problem with the passage?
Reply

imran123
10-11-2010, 08:01 AM
christian sister dont believe in trinity sorry
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-11-2010, 03:18 PM
I don’t know Hebrew. I can tell you this excerpt from my site:

There are several things that the Bible can mean by the phrase “Holy Spirit”, but none of them suggest that it’s God Himself being referred to. (For more information on this than I give in this article, see the section on the phrase “Holy Spirit” in my article “Answering Islam’s Article on the Trinity Refuted”.) First, contrary to the allegations Christians made that we Muslims are being silly when we say that in the Koran the Holy Spirit is Gabriel, the Bible itself sometimes refers to angels as “spirits of God”:

"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

Read through the rest of the relevant chapters of Revelation and it will be clear that these seven spirits are the seven angels in 8:2 and so on. So the term “spirit of God”, which Christians consider synonymous with the term “Holy Spirit”, can mean “angel”. The word “spirit” can also mean “prophet”, as we can tell from 1 John:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

Hence the Islamic belief that the Holy Spirit prophesied in John 14-17 is Muhammad (peace be on him). Then, of course, there is the literal meaning of the phrase, which involves the Greek term “spiritos” literally meaning “breath”:

"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (John 20:22)

Then there is the more nebulous meaning of the term, in which the spirit is simply the spirit of inspiration, in the ordinary English sense of the word. Christians lump up all of these different meanings, all of which are both obvious and obviously different, under the same definition, and that is precisely why the Holy Spirit is the hardest part of the Trinity to define, the most meaningless of the three phrases. There is no single meaning of the phrase in actuality, but only a long string of different non-Trinitarian meanings, but Christians consider them all to be the same, and so they end up with a term that cannot be clearly defined, or can be only when everyone has a different definition to give. It’s jargon, in other words, nonsense talk. That’s what you get when you oversimplify a complicated series of different meanings of a term--you inevitably end up with a difficult, nebulous, hard to fix, subjectively interpreted meaning on your hands.
I made a rather shameful goof there by getting the Greek and Latin terms for "soul" mixed up ("spiritus" is Latin, "pneuma" is the Greek word), but I stand by everything else I said. As for Psalms 137:9, that very same verse uses the term “spirit” interchangeably with “presence”, so there’s your answer. A person’s presence is not the same thing as the person himself. However, given that the Old Testament (certainly at least in its current form) has a way of depicting God as if he were some bodily, anthropoid creature of flesh (such as in Genesis 3:8, to give just one of many examples), I suppose it could literally mean God’s “soul”.
Reply

PouringRain
10-11-2010, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
christian sister dont believe in trinity sorry
I know you don't. That is why I asked what I asked.

Are you saying that you still have a problem with the verse? That you have a problem with using the word spirit in reference to God?
Reply

PouringRain
10-11-2010, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I don’t know Hebrew.
I don't either..... but the word for spirit in the Psalm is ruach, which can mean wind, breath, spirit, etc. From my understanding, and someone is free to correct me, but the arabic equivalent used in the qur'an is ruh, which also means the same things depending on the context.
Reply

imran123
10-12-2010, 12:20 PM
The Bible states the exact opposite of Job 33:4. God is the creator of human beings.

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:7)

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:14)

I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created. (Isaiah 57:16)

God is the Creator of mankind and the Spirit is created from God.

Let us examine the verse closely

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath (ruach) of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

The Hebrew word for “spirit” is Nashamah, according to Strong’s Number 05397, it also means breath:
Strong’s Number: 05397
Transliterated Word:
Nashamah
Phonetic
nesh-aw-maw'
Definition: breath, spirit
breath (of God)
breath (of man)
every breathing thing
spirit (of man)
(online Source)
The Hebrew word means “spirit of man”, so Job 33:4 cannot be referring to the Spirit of God, because Nashamah denotes a human spirit.
The Bible translation is distorted because it renders the Hebrew Nashamah as “spirit”.
Let us quote the verse using “breath” and not “spirit”

"The breath of God has made me, and the breath (ruach) of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

The writer of Job is speaking of God alone, the Bible says:

When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust. (Psalms 104:29, NIV)
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath (ruach), they die, and return to their dust. (KJV)

When their spirit (ruach) departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing. (Psalms 146:4, NIV)

His breath (ruach) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (KJV)

The breath (ruach) of God gives him life, and God takes away the breath (ruach) of the human being.

Also, the Hebrew word Nashamah (Job 33:4) is applied to humans (Genesis 7:22).

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. (1)

Basically, the breath which God breathes into His creatures (Ps. 104:29-30, 146:4, Ecc. 12:7) is the same Hebrew word used in Job 33:4 for “Spirit of God”, so logically Job 33:4 could be interpreted to read:

“The breath (Nashamah) of God sustains me…

Job is using the Hebrew word to signify the breath of God in human beings (Gen. 7:22)

The following example clarifies:

The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath (Nashamah) of life, and the man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7)

The latter text of Job 33:4 reads:

…and His breath (ruach) gives me life”

The following example clarifies this:

When you send your Spirit (ruach), they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30)

And the LORD said, My spirit (ruach) shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)

Since the Hebrew word is applied to both God and man, it means God is the Highest spirit (ruach) above the human, who is also ruach.

God breathed into Adam the breath of life:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed (Nashamah) into his nostrils the breath (Nashamah) of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

According to this verse, God breathed his Nashamah into Adam, so the “Spirit” of Job 33:4 is referring to God’s breath, not Spirit. The word Nashamah cannot be signifying God’s Spirit because the Hebrew is feminine [1], God is not feminine.

The Crosswalk does not capitalize the Hebrew word Nashamah, which directly implies this Hebrew word is not masculine; therefore it cannot apply to God.

Let us assume the Hebrew word is masculine, the correct translation of Job 33:4 then should read:

“The Spirit of God sustains me, and his breath gives me life”.

Cleary the words “his breath gives me life” can be reconciled with Gen. 2:7.

Since the Bible teaches only God is the Creator of man (Ps. 139:14), Job is not saying the Spirit made him, it only sustains him.

We repeat the verses quoted above:

So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6:7)

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalms 139:14)

I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me— the breath of man that I have created. (Isaiah 57:16)
The book of Job is doubtful because Job was not the author:

"Although most of the book consists of the words of Job and his counselors, Job himself was not the author." (The NIV Bible commentary, p. 722)

Hebrews 9:14 merely says Jesus died on the cross while “filled with the Holy Spirit” and the Holy Spirit left his body after he died:

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (Pneuma) (1) . (John 19:30)

Jesus gave up the Holy Spirit.

God is the Eternal creator of the universe, not his Spirit, a created being.

Paul wrongly deifies Holy Spirit by using the Greek word Aionios which means eternal.
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imran123
10-12-2010, 12:36 PM
Christian Brother
I got the answer which i was looking for PSALMS(139:7)

The Psalms is not speaking of the Spirit but describing the eternal presence of God in all creation. There is no reference to the Spirit as a separate entity, God is the only character spoken here; He is present over all creation.

Ruach is Spirit according to pslam than why not the spirit conisdered as angles or prophet from the following verses

"And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth." (Revelation 5:6)

Read through the rest of the relevant chapters of Revelation and it will be clear that these seven spirits are the seven angels in 8:2 and so on. So the term “spirit of God”, which Christians consider synonymous with the term “Holy Spirit”, can mean “angel”. The word “spirit” can also mean “prophet”, as we can tell from 1 John:
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imran123
10-12-2010, 12:55 PM
IN QURAN ALLAH SAYS

"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My Spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him. (The Noble Quran, 38:72)"

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ALLAH HAS PUT HIS SPIRIT IN HUMAN BEINGS IN ANY CONTEXT.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-12-2010, 02:14 PM
I am sensing we will see the departure of Imran123 pretty soon.

I won't be missing him though.
Reply

Woodrow
10-12-2010, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
(PSALMS 139:7)

ONE OF CHRISTIAN FRIEND SAID HE NEEDED ANSWER ON THIS
CAN ANYONE PLZ HELP
WHAT DOES SPIRIT IN THIS VERSE MEANS?
:sl:

UH, it is virtually impossible for us as Muslims to clarify the Bible. We do not see the bible as the word of God(swt) and many of the members here have very little if any knowledge of the Bible. Do not attempt to answer your friend from the Bible, lead him to the truth and seek verification what is meant by spirit in the Qur'an.

IE:
QUESTION:

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. I was a Christian before, and now I am confused about the definition of the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit according to Islam? I would like to know the meaning of the Holy Spirit specifically in surat al-Ma'idah (5: 110). Jazakum Allah khayran.

ANSWER:

Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, we commend your eagerness to get Islamic knowledge. We earnestly implore Allah to bless your efforts in this honorable way and help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Answering the question you raised, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

"The Holy Spirit mentioned in the above verse refers to the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel), also known as Jibraaeel; he is the message-bearer par excellence from Allah, the Lord of Glory and Grace; he is also the conduit of divine support and assistance bestowed on Prophets, Messengers as well as righteous people who strive in the path of Allah.

1. Thus we read in the Qur’an that the Prophets (peace be upon them all) are chosen by Allah by sending down the Holy Spirit with the revelations: “He sends down the Spirit from His command, upon those of His servants He chooses, in order to warn people of the Day of Meeting.” (Ghafir: 15)

2. We also read in the Qur’an that it (the Qur’an) was sent down upon the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) through the medium of Holy Spirit: “Say: The Holy Spirit brought it down from your Lord with the truth, to strengthen those who believe, and as a guidance and good tidings to the Muslims.” (An-Nahl: 102)

"And your Lord, He is indeed the August, the Compassionate. And it is a sending down from the Lord of the Worlds, brought down by the Trustworthy Spirit, upon your heart, that you may be one of the warners, in Arabic speech.” (Ash-Shu`ara': 191-195)

3. It is in the same spirit that we read in the Qur’an that the Holy Spirit was sent down to strengthen Jesus and assist him in his work:
“We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear signs, and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Baqarah: 253)

“Then Allah will say, O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favor upon you and upon your mother; how I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit…” (Al-Ma'idah: 110)

4. Furthermore, we read in the Prophetic traditions: The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Verily, the Holy Spirit has cast this idea in my heart: No soul shall die before its appointed time and without having exhausted the means of livelihood apportioned for it, so try to look for a livelihood as best as you can, but don’t seek it through unlawful means.” (Reported by Abu Nu`aym in Hilyah)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) prayed to Allah to strengthen the famous poet Hassan ibn Thabit with the Holy Spirit in composing poems in defense of Islam: “O Allah! Strengthen him with the Holy Spirit.” (Reported by al-Bukhari)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) later on said about Hassan: “Verily Allah, the Glorious and Mighty, is strengthening Hassan with the Holy Spirit.” (Reported by at-Tirmidhi and Ahmad) “The Holy Spirit is with Hassan in his work!” (Reported by Abu Dawud)

It should be clear from the above that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Jibreel sent by Allah to assist His chosen servants in their divinely ordained missions."

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: www.islam.ca
SOURCE
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PouringRain
10-12-2010, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123

The Psalms is not speaking of the Spirit but describing the eternal presence of God in all creation. There is no reference to the Spirit as a separate entity, God is the only character spoken here; He is present over all creation.
If this is the conclusion you have come to, then you have finally got it. :) This is what I was telling you in my response. The word "spirit" in the verse is that "eternal presence of God" as you call it, or the "invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature" as I called it.

That wasn't so difficult, was it?

The problem in your original conceptualization is that you were trying to separate it from God and make it out to be a separate distinct entity. Which, of course, it isn't.

I'm glad you finally understand it.

At least I think you do from this paragraph I quoted. :p I can't tell from the rest of you wrote.
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
The problem in your original conceptualization is that you were trying to separate it from God and make it out to be a separate distinct entity. Which, of course, it isn't.
Yes it is. You can semantically obfuscate that by referring to it as that "aspect of God's nature" all you like, but once again, that doesn't change that fact that a person's presence is not part of the person. It's a separate, external trait, an effect which the person is causing.
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PouringRain
10-12-2010, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Yes it is. You can semantically obfuscate that by referring to it as that "aspect of God's nature" all you like, but once again, that doesn't change that fact that a person's presence is not part of the person. It's a separate, external trait, an effect which the person is causing.
Without a person, there is no presence. A presence can only exist with a person. They are not separate, distinct entities. The presence emanates from a person.
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imran123
10-12-2010, 06:55 PM
The verse clearly speaks about omnipresence of god and NOT spirit it is not mentioned as separate identity.
read the complete verse and u can understand

Why there is not a single verse in bible where holy spirit says WORSHIP me.
Reply

imran123
10-12-2010, 06:59 PM
HOW CAN U PROVE THAT THESE VERSE SPEAKS ABOUT HOLY SPIRIT FROM GOD ONLY WHEN THERE ARE NUMBER OF SPIRITS AVAILABLE IN BIBLE
Isaiah 11:1-3
1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

As we see in Isaiah 11:1-3, there is:

1- Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding.

2- Spirit of Counsel and of power.

3- Spirit of Knowledge.

4- Spirit of the fear of the LORD.
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PouringRain
10-12-2010, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
The verse clearly speaks about omnipresence of god and NOT spirit it is not mentioned as separate identity.
read the complete verse and u can understand

Why there is not a single verse in bible where holy spirit says WORSHIP me .
Absolutely @ the portion I bolded....... I don't think anyone here has said any differently, so I don't understand why you are so worked up. :)

But I disagree with where you wrote "but NOT spirit". In between those bolded areas. The word "spirit" is used in the English language in that context to describe the invisible, omnipresent nature of God. It comes from the Hebrew word ruach, which can be translated in a number of ways depending on the context. The word "spirit" is one of those words that is lost in translation. If you read the verse in its original language, and you understood all the denotations and connotations of the word in its original, then we would not be having this discussion. The reason this discussion is in existence in because of the manner in which the word was translated, and the manner in which you are wanting to understand it to mean.

This thread has nothing to do with worshiping the Holy spirit.... nor does the verse. I'm not sure why you keep trying to make it about something that it isn't.
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
Without a person, there is no presence. A presence can only exist with a person. They are not separate, distinct entities. The presence emanates from a person.
Just because A is necessary for B to exist, that does not entail that B is a part or aspect of A. For example, smoke emanates from a fire and couldn't exist without it, yet the smoke is not part of the fire.
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
The word "spirit" is used in the English language in that context to describe the invisible, omnipresent nature of God. It comes from the Hebrew word ruach, which can be translated in a number of ways depending on the context. The word "spirit" is one of those words that is lost in translation. If you read the verse in its original language, and you understood all the denotations and connotations of the word in its original, then we would not be having this discussion. The reason this discussion is in existence in because of the manner in which the word was translated, and the manner in which you are wanting to understand it to mean.
Then by all means, explain all about the denotations and connotations of the word. (You seem to be awfully precise and confident for someone who doesn't know Hebrew....)
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PouringRain
10-12-2010, 10:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Just because A is necessary for B to exist, that does not entail that B is a part or aspect of A. For example, smoke emanates from a fire and couldn't exist without it, yet the smoke is not part of the fire.
Smoke is not a separate, distinct entity. You said yourself that it can not exist without fire. A separate, distinct entity is something that can exist on its own-- it has its own existence. Smoke does not. An individual's presence does not. If a is necessary for B to exist, then B is not its own entity. The very definition of an entity is that it has its own existence, independent, self-contained, etc.



format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Then by all means, explain all about the denotations and connotations of the word. (You seem to be awfully precise and confident for someone who doesn't know Hebrew....)
Entire papers have been written on the word ruach and its uses in the OT. You are more than welcome to look them up on your own. I mentioned briefly earlier that the three of these are wind, breath, and spirit.

I am not sure how you get that I am "awfully confident" or "awfully precise". Nothing in my words has been. I have no confidence in my ability to properly explain all the denotations and connotations of the term in its original language, but I am confident that if someone did understand it then we would not be having this discussion. The discussion is based upon a translation, and not upon the word itself. The misunderstanding comes from the interpretation of the translation. I would love for nothing more than someone to chime in and discuss the arabic ruh and it's uses in the qur'an. Woodrow, above, provided an example of one case where it referred to an angel. I have read discussions form other scholars of the other places it is used in the qur'an and what it means. One word-- multiple meanings and connotations. If you want to, you are more than welcome to also research the Hebrew word ruach and see all the meanings and uses. One word-- translated in different ways and with different meanings.

My only confidence is that an individual who understands the intricacies of the original word, would not have need to discuss it, no more than two native English speakers from Wisconsin would have a need to discuss the use of the term "bubbler" in the context of a drinking fountain. (Try translating that into another language. :) ) There is no secret of the problems that come in translating things into other languages. There are terms that you all use in Islam, which in English carry very different connotations (and even sometimes incorrect denotations) than is originally intended. I know this, because I have logged many hours on Christian forums clearing up misconceptions and misunderstandings based upon the way that an English word is used to explain something in Islam. I do not speak Arabic either, but I have taken the time to understand the terms as they are intended to be used, rather than how a native English speaker would interpret its use. I always welcome native speakers to correct me, so that I can better understand what the word means and connotes in its original language. I am far from knowledgeable, but I try not to be ignorant.



I find it ironic that the very thing that imran is upset about (separating out an aspect of God), is the very thing that you are defending when you are trying to make an individual's presence into a distinct, separate entity. :)
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IAmZamzam
10-12-2010, 10:46 PM
Look, it's as simple as this: a trait someone has, be it presence or anything else, is not the person himself in any capacity, regardless of how you slice it, but only something about the person. I am a brunette, but nobody ever speaks of my brown hair as an aspect of myself. It just grows out from me, like my presence in a room. Neither are me, they're just things about me. In much the same way my breath is not me. It is an effect that I am the cause of. How you think of the smoke as being the fire, either literally or figuratively, is beyond me. Neither is a fire's brightness or hotness the fire itself: fire is a type of oxidation.
Reply

PouringRain
10-13-2010, 12:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Look, it's as simple as this: a trait someone has, be it presence or anything else, is not the person himself in any capacity, regardless of how you slice it, but only something about the person. I am a brunette, but nobody ever speaks of my brown hair as an aspect of myself. It just grows out from me, like my presence in a room. Neither are me, they're just things about me. In much the same way my breath is not me. It is an effect that I am the cause of. How you think of the smoke as being the fire, either literally or figuratively, is beyond me. Neither is a fire's brightness or hotness the fire itself: fire is a type of oxidation.

I agree that in your example of your hair, your hair is not "you", but is something that grows out from you. It is a part of you. But your hair is also not a distinct, separate entity-- not by any means of the imagination.

No matter how you slice it something that is a separate, distinct entity is something that exists apart (on its own). Not hair, not smoke, not your presence exist on their own. They all come from a source. By the very nature of what a separate, distinct entity is none of those things can be one.



Maybe nobody speaks of your brown hair as an aspect of yourself, for the simple reason that the majority of the world is brunette. :p If you were a blonde or a red head, living in a region with a sea of brunettes, then certainly your hair would be a defining factor of "you." (But it still would not be a separate, distinct entity. :) )


I am just curious as to why it is so important for you to define God's spirit as being a separate, distinct entity? I have never known a Muslim who works so hard at trying to separate the two.
Reply

imran123
10-13-2010, 07:42 AM
sister u didnt reply my previous questions

HOW CAN U PROVE THAT THESE VERSE SPEAKS ABOUT HOLY SPIRIT FROM GOD ONLY WHEN THERE ARE NUMBER OF SPIRITS AVAILABLE IN BIBLE
Isaiah 11:1-3
1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD (Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

As we see in Isaiah 11:1-3, there is:

1- Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding.

2- Spirit of Counsel and of power.

3- Spirit of Knowledge.

4- Spirit of the fear of the LORD.
Reply

imran123
10-13-2010, 08:45 AM
Pouring rain for sake of argument even if i agree it speaks about god
here is one thing for u

The Bible says that God is everywhere including the heavens and the earth...

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

Psalms 139: 7-8
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.


So here we see that God does fill the heaven and the earth. But else where it says that the heavens and the earth cannot contain God...


1 Kings 8:27

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6

But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?



Wouldn't this also contradict the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit is literally dwelling inside the individual? But how, if the person's body can't contain God?
Reply

FS123
10-13-2010, 09:58 AM
Wouldn't this also contradict the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit is literally dwelling inside the individual? But how, if the person's body can't contain God?
Don't know, never tried to put God into a person's body.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-13-2010, 08:05 PM
PouringRain, I don't know what I have to do to get you to where you can understand this. Identity has nothing to do with being "separated" from something else and "apart from it". If it did then conjoined twins would be the same person. Nor does it have anything whatever to do with a "source": God is our source yet we are not part of God! The source is the cause of the that which it is the source of, just as fire, an entirely separate substance from smoke, is the cause of the smoke. The light of a fire is a quality in it and not "distinct from its nature", yet it is still not the fire itself. If you were not blinded by Trinitarianism, or if you were talking about any other subject, anything not involving the Trinity, then I'm sure you would find it just as absurd as I do to consider any entity's presence to be part of the entity. You are not your being here: you are you. So it is with God. I'm getting tired of repeating myself, and I am not feeling inclined to do it again.
Reply

PouringRain
10-13-2010, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
If you were not blinded by Trinitarianism, or if you were talking about any other subject, anything not involving the Trinity, then I'm sure you would find it just as absurd as I do to consider any entity's presence to be part of the entity.
Ironically, I wondered the same about you, given your position. I was quite shocked to hear those ideas coming from the mouth of a Muslim, to be quite honest. :)

Additionally, no where in this thread was I ever talking about the trinity, but only about God. My position from the beginning is that the Psalm is about God. It was the originator of the thread who kept bringing up the "trinity" and giving reference to the trinity. That is why I asked him if he put aside his thoughts on the trinity, if he would then have a problem with the verse.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-13-2010, 11:56 PM
You cannot refer to a Bible verse speaking of the "spirit" of God and then expect us not to believe that there isn't any Trinitarian overtone to your interpretation, spoken or unspoken. God's breath is an effect He causes. God's presence is not God. "X=x's presence" is a silly interpretation of anything, Trinitarian or Unitarian, God or no God, religious or secular. Please stop making me repeat myself, because I'm at the end of my rope.
Reply

PouringRain
10-14-2010, 05:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You cannot refer to a Bible verse speaking of the "spirit" of God and then expect us not to believe that there isn't any Trinitarian overtone to your interpretation, spoken or unspoken.
That is an assumption. To my knowledge I have never discussed my personal beliefs in the trinity or the lack thereof on this forum (nor on most any forum, for that matter), so I do not know what grounds you would have for assuming that when I speak of the "spirit" of God that I have "trinitarian overtones" in my words. Is your assumption made simply because I am a "Christian" as my stated religion? If this is so, it is not a valid reason considering not all Christians are trinitarian and those who are can have very different beliefs regarding the trinity.

IMO your beliefs sound more "trinitarian" than my own, which is why I have been so shocked all this time that you actually believe the "spirit" is a distinct, separate entity of its own. I am now compelled to try and understand if this is a common Islamic belief.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Please stop making me repeat myself, because I'm at the end of my rope.
I am not making you repeat yourself. I have no power to make you do anything. Anything you do is on your own volition.
Reply

FS123
10-14-2010, 05:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You cannot refer to a Bible verse speaking of the "spirit" of God and then expect us not to believe that there isn't any Trinitarian overtone to your interpretation, spoken or unspoken. God's breath is an effect He causes. God's presence is not God. "X=x's presence" is a silly interpretation of anything, Trinitarian or Unitarian, God or no God, religious or secular. Please stop making me repeat myself, because I'm at the end of my rope.
Bro, Jews speak of the "spirit" of God, but they don't believe in Trinity.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-14-2010, 12:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
That is an assumption. To my knowledge I have never discussed my personal beliefs in the trinity or the lack thereof on this forum (nor on most any forum, for that matter), so I do not know what grounds you would have for assuming that when I speak of the "spirit" of God that I have "trinitarian overtones" in my words. Is your assumption made simply because I am a "Christian" as my stated religion? If this is so, it is not a valid reason considering not all Christians are trinitarian and those who are can have very different beliefs regarding the trinity.
Perhaps it's more the way you spoke than anything else. All the same, I'm willing to bet you do believe in the Trinity. Do you? Because if you do then I hardly see how you could keep it out of your interpretation of the verse even if you tried. It sounds an unnatural task.

IMO your beliefs sound more "trinitarian" than my own, which is why I have been so shocked all this time that you actually believe the "spirit" is a distinct, separate entity of its own. I am now compelled to try and understand if this is a common Islamic belief.
A distinct ENTITY? I never said that myself, and pretty much said the opposite. A distinct QUALITY? Most certainly.

format_quote Originally Posted by FS123
Bro, Jews speak of the "spirit" of God, but they don't believe in Trinity.
Which is why I was referring to her interpretation, not theirs.
Reply

PouringRain
10-14-2010, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
A distinct ENTITY? I never said that myself, and pretty much said the opposite. A distinct QUALITY? Most certainly.
If this is what you said all along, then why were you disagreeing with me? If you look back, I was saying from the beginning that the spirit is not a distinct, separate entity, and you kept disagreeing with me. Why do you think I was so shocked? Look back at my post #17 where I said the spirit is not a distinct, separate entity, and your post 18 where you say "Yes, it is." Then in my post 19 I reiterated that it is not a distinct, separate entity.... and you continued to disagree with me from there.

Either you were not reading my posts, or your lenses were so colored by your assumption about my beliefs that you didn't want to properly read what I wrote to know my beliefs.
Reply

Woodrow
10-14-2010, 04:48 PM
Just a quick reply to address the last few post. The biggest fuel for the confusion is the multitude of "spirit":

Spirit \Spir"it\, n. [OF. espirit, esperit, F. esprit, L. spiritus, from spirare to breathe, to blow. Cf. Conspire, Expire, Esprit, Sprite.]

1. Air set in motion by breathing; breath; hence, sometimes, life itself. [Obs.]

"All of spirit would deprive." --Spenser. [1913 Webster]

The mild air, with season moderate, Gently attempered, and disposed eo well, That still it breathed foorth sweet spirit. --Spenser. [1913 Webster]

2. A rough breathing; an aspirate, as the letter h; also, a mark to denote aspiration; a breathing. [Obs.]

[1913 Webster]

Be it a letter or spirit, we have great use for it. --B. Jonson. [1913 Webster]

3. Life, or living substance, considered independently of corporeal existence; an intelligence conceived of apart from any physical organization or embodiment; vital essence, force, or energy, as distinct from matter. [1913 Webster]

4. The intelligent, immaterial and immortal part of man; the soul, in distinction from the body in which it resides; the agent or subject of vital and spiritual functions, whether spiritual or material. [1913 Webster]

There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. --Job xxxii. 8. [1913 Webster]

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. --James ii. 26. [1913 Webster]

Spirit is a substance wherein thinking, knowing, doubting, and a power of moving, do subsist. --Locke. [1913 Webster]

5. Specifically, a disembodied soul; the human soul after it has left the body. [1913 Webster]

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. --Eccl. xii. 7. [1913 Webster]

Ye gentle spirits far away, With whom we shared the cup of grace. --Keble. [1913 Webster]

6. Any supernatural being, good or bad; an apparition; a specter; a ghost; also, sometimes, a sprite,; a fairy; an elf. [1913 Webster]

Whilst young, preserve his tender mind from all impressions of spirits and goblins in the dark. --Locke. [1913 Webster]

7. Energy, vivacity, ardor, enthusiasm, courage, etc. [1913 Webster]

"Write it then, quickly," replied Bede; and summoning all his spirits together, like the last blaze of a candle going out, he indited it, and expired. --Fuller. [1913 Webster]

8. One who is vivacious or lively; one who evinces great activity or peculiar characteristics of mind or temper; as, a ruling spirit; a schismatic spirit. [1913 Webster]

Such spirits as he desired to please, such would I choose for my judges. --Dryden. [1913 Webster]

9. Temper or disposition of mind; mental condition or disposition; intellectual or moral state; -- often in the plural; as, to be cheerful, or in good spirits; to be downhearted, or in bad spirits. [1913 Webster]

God has . . . made a spirit of building succeed a spirit of pulling down. --South. [1913 Webster]

A perfect judge will read each work of wit With the same spirit that its author writ. --Pope. [1913 Webster]

10. Intent; real meaning; -- opposed to the letter, or to formal statement; also, characteristic quality, especially such as is derived from the individual genius or the personal character; as, the spirit of an enterprise, of a document, or the like. [1913 Webster]


1. Tenuous, volatile, airy, or vapory substance, possessed of active qualities. [1913 Webster]

All bodies have spirits . . . within them. --Bacon. [1913 Webster]

12. Any liquid produced by distillation; especially, alcohol, the spirits, or spirit, of wine (it having been first distilled from wine): -- often in the plural. [1913 Webster]

13. pl. Rum, whisky, brandy, gin, and other distilled liquors having much alcohol, in distinction from wine and malt liquors. [1913 Webster]

14. (Med.) A solution in alcohol of a volatile principle. Cf. Tincture. --U. S. Disp. [1913 Webster]

15. (Alchemy) Any one of the four substances, sulphur, sal ammoniac, quicksilver, or arsenic (or, according to some, orpiment). [1913 Webster]

The four spirits and the bodies seven. --Chaucer. [1913 Webster]

16. (Dyeing) Stannic chloride. See under Stannic. [1913 Webster]

Note: Spirit is sometimes joined with other words, forming compounds, generally of obvious signification; as, spirit-moving, spirit-searching, spirit-stirring, etc. [1913 Webster]

Astral spirits, Familiar spirits, etc. See under Astral, Familiar, etc.

Animal spirits.
(a) (Physiol.) The fluid which at one time was supposed to circulate through the nerves and was regarded as the agent of sensation and motion; -- called also the nervous fluid, or nervous principle.
(b) Physical health and energy; frolicsomeness; sportiveness.

Ardent spirits, strong alcoholic liquors, as brandy, rum, whisky, etc., obtained by distillation.

Holy Spirit, or The Spirit (Theol.), the Spirit of God, or the third person of the Trinity; the Holy Ghost. The spirit also signifies the human spirit as influenced or animated by the Divine Spirit.

Proof spirit. (Chem.) See under Proof.

Rectified spirit (Chem.), spirit rendered purer or more concentrated by redistillation, so as to increase the percentage of absolute alcohol.

Spirit butterfly (Zool.), any one of numerous species of delicate butterflies of tropical America belonging to the genus Ithomia. The wings are gauzy and nearly destitute of scales.

Spirit duck. (Zool.)
(a) The buffle-headed duck.
(b) The golden-eye.

Spirit lamp (Art), a lamp in which alcohol or methylated spirit is burned.

Spirit level. See under Level.

Spirit of hartshorn. (Old Chem.) See under Hartshorn.

Spirit of Mindererus (Med.), an aqueous solution of acetate of ammonium; -- named after R. Minderer, physician of Augsburg.

Spirit of nitrous ether (Med. Chem.), a pale yellow liquid, of a sweetish taste and a pleasant ethereal odor. It is obtained by the distillation of alcohol with nitric and sulphuric acids, and consists essentially of ethyl nitrite with a little acetic aldehyde. It is used as a diaphoretic, diuretic, antispasmodic, etc. Called also sweet spirit of niter.

Spirit of salt (Chem.), hydrochloric acid; -- so called because obtained from salt and sulphuric acid. [Obs.]

Spirit of sense, the utmost refinement of sensation. [Obs.]

--Shak.

Spirits of turpentine, or Spirit of turpentine (Chem.), rectified oil of turpentine, a transparent, colorless, volatile, and very inflammable liquid, distilled from the turpentine of the various species of pine; camphine. It is commonly used to remove paint from surfaces, or to dissole oil-based paint. See Camphine.

Spirit of vitriol (Chem.), sulphuric acid; -- so called because formerly obtained by the distillation of green vitriol. [Obs.]

Spirit of vitriolic ether (Chem.) ethyl ether; -- often but incorrectly called sulphuric ether. See Ether. [Obs.]

Spirits of wine, or Spirit of wine (Chem.), alcohol; -- so called because formerly obtained by the distillation of wine.

Spirit rapper, one who practices spirit rapping; a "medium" so called.

Spirit rapping, an alleged form of communication with the spirits of the dead by raps. See Spiritualism, 3.

Sweet spirit of niter. See Spirit of nitrous ether, above. [1913 Webster]

Syn: Life; ardor; energy; fire; courage; animatioon; cheerfulness; vivacity; enterprise. [1913 Webster]

Source: The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48



spirit level
noun

indicator that establishes the horizontal when a bubble is centered in a tube of liquid [syn: level]

Source: WordNet (r) 2.0



Level \Lev"el\ (l[e^]v"[e^]l), n. [OE. level, livel, OF. livel, F. niveau, fr. L. libella level, water level, a plumb level, dim. of libra pound, measure for liquids, balance, water poise, level. Cf. Librate, Libella.]

1. A line or surface to which, at every point, a vertical or plumb line is perpendicular; a line or surface which is everywhere parallel to the surface of still water; -- this is the true level, and is a curve or surface in which all points are equally distant from the center of the earth, or rather would be so if the earth were an exact sphere.

2. A horizontal line or plane; that is, a straight line or a plane which is tangent to a true level at a given point and hence parallel to the horizon at that point; -- this is the apparent level at the given point.

3. An approximately horizontal line or surface at a certain degree of altitude, or distance from the center of the earth; as, to climb from the level of the coast to the level of the plateau and then descend to the level of the valley or of the sea.

After draining of the level in Northamptonshire. --Sir M. Hale.

Shot from the deadly level of a gun. --Shak.

4. Hence, figuratively, a certain position, rank, standard, degree, quality, character, etc., conceived of as in one of several planes of different elevation.

Providence, for the most part, sets us on a level. --Addison.

Somebody there of his own level. --Swift.

Be the fair level of thy actions laid As temperance wills and prudence may persuade. --Prior.

5. A uniform or average height; a normal plane or altitude; a condition conformable to natural law or which will secure a level surface; as, moving fluids seek a level.

When merit shall find its level. --F. W. Robertson.

6. (Mech. & Surv.)
(a) An instrument by which to find a horizontal line, or adjust something with reference to a horizontal line.
(b) A measurement of the difference of altitude of two points, by means of a level; as, to take a level.

7. A horizontal passage, drift, or adit, in a mine.

Air level, a spirit level. See Spirit level (below).

Box level, a spirit level in which a glass-covered box is used instead of a tube.

Carpenter's level, Mason's level, either the plumb level or a straight bar of wood, in which is imbedded a small spirit level.

Level of the sea, the imaginary level from which heights and depths are calculated, taken at a mean distance between high and low water.

Line of levels, a connected series of measurements, by means of a level, along a given line, as of a railroad, to ascertain the profile of the ground.

Plumb level, one in which a horizontal bar is placed in true position by means of a plumb line, to which it is at right angles.

Spirit level, one in which the adjustment to the horizon is shown by the position of a bubble in alcohol or ether contained in a nearly horizontal glass tube, or a circular box with a glass cover.

Surveyor's level, a telescope, with a spirit level attached, and with suitable screws, etc., for accurate adjustment, the whole mounted on a tripod, for use in leveling; -- called also leveling instrument.

Water level, an instrument to show the level by means of the surface of water in a trough, or in upright tubes connected by a pipe.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)



Spirit \Spir"it\, n. [OF. espirit, esperit, F. esprit, L. spiritus, from spirare to breathe, to blow. Cf. Conspire, Expire, Esprit, Sprite.]

1. Air set in motion by breathing; breath; hence, sometimes, life itself. [Obs.]

``All of spirit would deprive.'' --Spenser.

The mild air, with season moderate, Gently attempered, and disposed eo well, That still it breathed foorth sweet spirit. --Spenser.

2. A rough breathing; an aspirate, as the letter h; also, a mark to denote aspiration; a breathing. [Obs.]

Be it a letter or spirit, we have great use for it. --B. Jonson.

3. Life, or living substance, considered independently of corporeal existence; an intelligence conceived of apart from any physical organization or embodiment; vital essence, force, or energy, as distinct from matter.

4. The intelligent, immaterial and immortal part of man; the soul, in distinction from the body in which it resides; the agent or subject of vital and spiritual functions, whether spiritual or material.

There is a spirit in man; and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. --Job xxxii. 8.

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. --James ii. 26.

Spirit is a substance wherein thinking, knowing, doubting, and a power of moving, do subsist. --Locke.

5. Specifically, a disembodied soul; the human soul after it has left the body.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. --Eccl. xii. 7.

Ye gentle spirits far away, With whom we shared the cup of grace. --Keble.

6. Any supernatural being, good or bad; an apparition; a specter; a ghost; also, sometimes, a sprite,; a fairy; an elf.

Whilst young, preserve his tender mind from all impressions of spirits and goblins in the dark. --Locke.

7. Energy, vivacity, ardor, enthusiasm, courage, etc.

``Write it then, quickly,'' replied Bede; and summoning all his spirits together, like the last blaze of a candle going out, he indited it, and expired. --Fuller.

8. One who is vivacious or lively; one who evinces great activity or peculiar characteristics of mind or temper; as, a ruling spirit; a schismatic spirit.

Such spirits as he desired to please, such would I choose for my judges. --Dryden.

9. Temper or disposition of mind; mental condition or disposition; intellectual or moral state; -- often in the plural; as, to be cheerful, or in good spirits; to be downhearted, or in bad spirits.

God has . . . made a spirit of building succeed a spirit of pulling down. --South.

A perfect judge will read each work of wit With the same spirit that its author writ. --Pope.

10. Intent; real meaning; -- opposed to the letter, or to formal statement; also, characteristic quality, especially such as is derived from the individual genius or the personal character; as, the spirit of an enterprise, of a document, or the like.


1. Tenuous, volatile, airy, or vapory substance, possessed of active qualities.

All bodies have spirits . . . within them. --Bacon.

12. Any liquid produced by distillation; especially, alcohol, the spirits, or spirit, of wine (it having been first distilled from wine): -- often in the plural.

13. pl. Rum, whisky, brandy, gin, and other distilled liquors having much alcohol, in distinction from wine and malt liquors.

14. (Med.) A solution in alcohol of a volatile principle. Cf. Tincture. --U. S. Disp.

15. (Alchemy) Any one of the four substances, sulphur, sal ammoniac, quicksilver, or arsenic (or, according to some, orpiment).

The four spirits and the bodies seven. --Chaucer.

16. (Dyeing) Stannic chloride. See under Stannic.

Note: Spirit is sometimes joined with other words, forming compounds, generally of obvious signification; as, spirit-moving, spirit-searching, spirit-stirring, etc.

Astral spirits, Familiar spirits, etc. See under Astral, Familiar, etc.

Animal spirits.
(a) (Physiol.) The fluid which at one time was supposed to circulate through the nerves and was regarded as the agent of sensation and motion; -- called also the nervous fluid, or nervous principle.
(b) Physical health and energy; frolicsomeness; sportiveness.

Ardent spirits, strong alcoholic liquors, as brandy, rum, whisky, etc., obtained by distillation.

Holy Spirit, or The Spirit (Theol.), the Spirit of God, or the third person of the Trinity; the Holy Ghost. The spirit also signifies the human spirit as influenced or animated by the Divine Spirit.

Proof spirit. (Chem.) See under Proof.

Rectified spirit (Chem.), spirit rendered purer or more concentrated by redistillation, so as to increase the percentage of absolute alcohol.

Spirit butterfly (Zo["o]l.), any one of numerous species of delicate butterflies of tropical America belonging to the genus Ithomia. The wings are gauzy and nearly destitute of scales.

Spirit duck. (Zo["o]l.)
(a) The buffle-headed duck.
(b) The golden-eye.

Spirit lamp (Art), a lamp in which alcohol or methylated spirit is burned.

Spirit level. See under Level.

Spirit of hartshorn. (Old Chem.) See under Hartshorn.

Spirit of Mindererus (Med.), an aqueous solution of acetate of ammonium; -- named after R. Minderer, physician of Augsburg.

Spirit of nitrous ether (Med. Chem.), a pale yellow liquid, of a sweetish taste and a pleasant ethereal odor. It is obtained by the distillation of alcohol with nitric and sulphuric acids, and consists essentially of ethyl nitrite with a little acetic aldehyde. It is used as a diaphoretic, diuretic, antispasmodic, etc. Called also sweet spirit of niter.

Spirit of salt (Chem.), hydrochloric acid; -- so called because obtained from salt and sulphuric acid. [Obs.]

Spirit of sense, the utmost refinement of sensation. [Obs.]

--Shak.

Spirits, or Spirit, of turpentine (Chem.), rectified oil of turpentine, a transparent, colorless, volatile, and very inflammable liquid, distilled from the turpentine of the various species of pine; camphine. See Camphine.

Spirit of vitriol (Chem.), sulphuric acid; -- so called because formerly obtained by the distillation of green vitriol. [Obs.]

Spirit of vitriolic ether (Chem.) ether; -- often but incorrectly called sulphuric ether. See Ether. [Obs.]

Spirits, or Spirit, of wine (Chem.), alcohol; -- so called because formerly obtained by the distillation of wine.

Spirit rapper, one who practices spirit rapping; a ``medium'' so called.

Spirit rapping, an alleged form of communication with the spirits of the dead by raps. See Spiritualism, 3.

Sweet spirit of niter. See Spirit of nitrous ether, above.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Before there can be any discussion about spirit, it is necessary there is a clear understanding of how all participants define spirit. Can't really discuss if everybody is talking about something different.
Reply

PouringRain
10-14-2010, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Before there can be any discussion about spirit, it is necessary there is a clear understanding of how all participants define spirit. Can't really discuss if everybody is talking about something different.
I agree, as the "spirit" can mean many things. I had brought this up earlier in the thread. It was my understanding that we have been discussing the word "spirit" in the context of one's "presence."

Post #7 I wrote "invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature."
Post #9 Yahya Sulaiman wrote "As for Psalms 137:9, that very same verse uses the term “spirit” interchangeably with “presence”, so there’s your answer."
Post #13 Imran123 wrote "the eternal presence of God "
Post #17 I quoted the line from Imran's #13 post, and I re-iterated my post #7
Post #18 Yahya Sulaiman worte" presence"
Post #19 I wrote "presence"

Etc.

So, from the beginning, it seemed as though we were all on the same page regarding how we were defining "spirit" in the context of the verse.
Reply

Woodrow
10-15-2010, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
I agree, as the "spirit" can mean many things. I had brought this up earlier in the thread. It was my understanding that we have been discussing the word "spirit" in the context of one's "presence."

Post #7 I wrote "invisible, omnipresent aspect of God's nature."
Post #9 Yahya Sulaiman wrote "As for Psalms 137:9, that very same verse uses the term “spirit” interchangeably with “presence”, so there’s your answer."
Post #13 Imran123 wrote "the eternal presence of God "
Post #17 I quoted the line from Imran's #13 post, and I re-iterated my post #7
Post #18 Yahya Sulaiman worte" presence"
Post #19 I wrote "presence"

Etc.

So, from the beginning, it seemed as though we were all on the same page regarding how we were defining "spirit" in the context of the verse.
I agree at the first 20 posts everybody seems to have been discussing the same meaning. But after post 20 it seems a few were using a different meaning.
Reply

imran123
10-15-2010, 12:03 PM
what about this one


The Bible says that God is everywhere including the heavens and the earth...

Jeremiah 23:24

24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

Psalms 139: 7-8
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.


So here we see that God does fill the heaven and the earth. But else where it says that the heavens and the earth cannot contain God...


1 Kings 8:27

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6

But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?



Wouldn't this also contradict the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit is literally dwelling inside the individual? But how, if the person's body can't contain God?
Reply

imran123
10-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Brother read the complete verse
In context it refers to Almighty god not spirit

If your bible is the word of god why there are so many contradictions in bible. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.

It is mentioned in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.12, Verse No.1 to 5, and we know medically, that after a mother gives birth to a child, the post-partal period, it is unhygienic. To say it is ‘unclean’, Religiously - I have got no objection. But Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that… ‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more. It she give birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days. In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child… ‘a son’, she is unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child… ‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like Dr. William Campbell to explain to me scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child.

It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, the context that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people are given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses. Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add up… if you add up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - this is the list of Ezra… this is the list of Nehemiah. Ezra Ch. No 2, Nehemiah Ch. No 7 - If you add up - I had to do my homework…if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer. If you add up all the 60 Verses, it is so easy. Almighty God did not know adding – Nauzubillah… if we presume, that this is the word of God

WORD OF GOD CANNOT SCIENTIFIC ERRORS SORRY BROTHER
Reply

glo
10-15-2010, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imran123
So here we see that God does fill the heaven and the earth. But else where it says that the heavens and the earth cannot contain God...


Wouldn't this also contradict the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit is literally dwelling inside the individual? But how, if the person's body can't contain God?
I think you misunderstand, imran.

Christian teaching is quite clear that God is omnipresent, which means he is everywhere.
The verse "even the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this temple I have built" doesn't say that God cannot be in the heavens or the temple (indeed he is present in both), instead it means that neither heaven nor the temple are great enough to provide a dwelling place for God in his entirety and fullness.

I found some further information here.
Solomon mentioned God’s omnipresence on the day that the temple was dedicated. It was a beautiful building where God would place His name, where He would personally dwell, and where He would meet with His people. But in Solomon’s majestic prayer of dedication he revealed a truth that we still misunderstand today. “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain Thee, how much less this house which I have built!” (1 Kings 8:27) God would dwell in that temple but He would not be restricted to it. We cannot limit God to a building. We cannot even limit Him to a universe. God is everywhere.
In other words, God is greater and bigger and more wonderful and more powerful than anything else in this entire universe!
Everything else pales into insignificance.

Would you, as a Muslim, not agree with that perception of God?
Reply

PouringRain
10-15-2010, 04:19 PM
Glo is correct. It would be like if you filled a glass with water and continued to fill until the glass was just overflowing. The glass is indeed filled with water, but it also can not contain all the water.


Imran, since you have so many questions about Christianity, why don't you open your own thread in comparative religion?
Reply

imran123
10-15-2010, 04:20 PM
Brother wot about the scientific errors in bible
No christian in the world can ever refute this errors.
Reply

imran123
10-15-2010, 04:20 PM
If your bible is the word of god why there are so many contradictions in bible. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.

It is mentioned in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.12, Verse No.1 to 5, and we know medically, that after a mother gives birth to a child, the post-partal period, it is unhygienic. To say it is ‘unclean’, Religiously - I have got no objection. But Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that… ‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more. It she give birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days. In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child… ‘a son’, she is unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child… ‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like Dr. William Campbell to explain to me scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child.

It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, the context that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people are given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses. Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add up… if you add up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - this is the list of Ezra… this is the list of Nehemiah. Ezra Ch. No 2, Nehemiah Ch. No 7 - If you add up - I had to do my homework…if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer. If you add up all the 60 Verses, it is so easy. Almighty God did not know adding – Nauzubillah… if we presume, that this is the word of God

WORD OF GOD CANNOT SCIENTIFIC ERRORS SORRY BROTHER
Reply

imran123
10-15-2010, 04:27 PM
1 Kings 8:27

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6

But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?

Wouldn't this also contradict the Christian belief that the Holy Spirit is literally dwelling inside the individual? But how, if the person's body can't contain God?
Reply

FS123
10-15-2010, 05:32 PM
This thread is for interfaith forum, please move this thread to its appropriate section.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-15-2010, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
If this is what you said all along, then why were you disagreeing with me? If you look back, I was saying from the beginning that the spirit is not a distinct, separate entity, and you kept disagreeing with me. Why do you think I was so shocked? Look back at my post #17 where I said the spirit is not a distinct, separate entity, and your post 18 where you say "Yes, it is." Then in my post 19 I reiterated that it is not a distinct, separate entity.... and you continued to disagree with me from there
Look, let’s get this cleared up once and for all, because with the forum not allowing you to copy and paste from posts it takes me way too long to undertake something like this when I’d rather not be continuing to repeat myself in the first place. Here is what you said in post #17:

The problem in your original conceptualization is that you were trying to separate it from God and make it out to be a separate distinct entity. Which, of course, it isn't.
Then in the next post I responded:

Yes it is. You can semantically obfuscate that by referring to it as that “aspect of God's nature” all you like, but once again, that doesn't change that fact that a person's presence is not part of the person. It's a separate, external trait, an effect which the person is causing.
Then in post #34 you said:

IMO your beliefs sound more ‘trinitarian’ than my own, which is why I have been so shocked all this time that you actually believe the ‘spirit’ is a distinct, separate entity of its own. I am now compelled to try and understand if this is a common Islamic belief.
And even though I clarified the matter for you in post #36…

A distinct ENTITY? I never said that myself, and pretty much said the opposite. A distinct QUALITY? Most certainly.
...you’re still confused, or feigning confusion. I think perhaps you’re getting stuck in an equivocation of the two different meanings of the term “entity”. Just pretend that we had never used the word at all. God’s presence (or in that verse, “spirit”) is an effect that God’s existence naturally produces, just as my presence in this room is an effect that my being here naturally produces. It is as separate from my own self as it gets. As distinct as it gets. The very fact that I am its source makes it not part of me and distinct from me. Because if I were the source of any part of my own self, I would be violating the rules of cause and effect. You have no problem admitting this of me: why not admit it of God? Stop hiding behind semantics. Whether you’re a Trinitarian or not, you seem to have adopted their verbal tricks. Not to mention that you didn’t answer me when I asked whether you were one or not.
Reply

PouringRain
10-16-2010, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
...you’re still confused, or feigning confusion. I think perhaps you’re getting stuck in an equivocation of the two different meanings of the term “entity”. Just pretend that we had never used the word at all.

Whether you’re a Trinitarian or not, you seem to have adopted their verbal tricks. Not to mention that you didn’t answer me when I asked whether you were one or not.
The word "entity" can not just be discarded from the conversation, because I think if you had properly read what I wrote from the onset, then we would not have been having this discussion. I said it is not a distinct, separate entity (post 17), you say in post 36 that it is not a distinct entity-- end of story, because the beliefs are in agreement. All the posts in between were clearly unnecessary, since you cleared up your position in post 36.

There was no trickery. I used the word "entity", or the phrase that it is not a separate, distinct entity in every reply to you (up until you began talking trinitarianism). The word entity was at the very core of what I was saying. It can not be discarded, nor was there any slight of hand, word game, trickery. I don't think I need to go back and count how many times I used the word between posts 17 and 36 in order to demonstrate how very clear I was saying it. It shouldn't be necessary, since the entire conversation is now moot.

Furthermore, I did not see a need to answer your question about being trinitarian in post 36, since it was that same post that you reaffirmed my position from post 17. At that point the question also seemed to be of no consequence.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-16-2010, 06:32 PM
Perhaps you should tell us, then, exactly which meaning of "entity" you were using.

When I said that I was referring to God's presence as "a distinct ENTITY? No. A distinct QUALITY? Yes." I was merely explaining what word I thought more sensible to use for the sake of the point I was making. The qualities a being produces are, however un"separated", still not the being. Since "entity" might or might not refer to life, that tends to obfuscate things.
Reply

PouringRain
10-16-2010, 11:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Perhaps you should tell us, then, exactly which meaning of "entity" you were using.

When I said that I was referring to God's presence as "a distinct ENTITY? No. A distinct QUALITY? Yes." I was merely explaining what word I thought more sensible to use for the sake of the point I was making. The qualities a being produces are, however un"separated", still not the being. Since "entity" might or might not refer to life, that tends to obfuscate things.

In post #25 I defined it as "something that can exist on its own" & "has its own existence, independent, self-contained, etc." And in Post 27 I wrote "exists apart (on its own).

I realize that entity can mean different things, as can spirit, which is why I made attempts early on to be clear which definitions I was using.

The word quality can also have various meanings, and it is not a word I'd personally use to describe the spirit. Although, I would use it to describe some other attributes of things you mentioned earlier.

If I was to explain the "spirit" in a concrete manner (since understanding the spirit is very abstract), I'd describe it in this manner:

If I reach down and pick up a stone with my hand, it would be correct to say that "my hand picked up the stone" but it would be equally correct to say that "I picked up the stone." Both are correct, and my hand is both a part of me and also representative of me as a whole, but clearly my hand is not me. My hand acts in accordance with my will and can do no thing on its own. In this manner it is an integral part of me. Obviously, no one would look at my hand and say, "oh, you are beautiful" or "you are kind" or "you are mighty"-- because my hand is not representative of my whole in that manner. My hand can only be representative of my whole in the manner in which it functions. "I (my hand) picked up the stone." "I (my hand) pushed the box." I (my hand) am strong in grasp." So, the functions and the attributes of my hand can be applied to me as a whole, but my whole can not be applied to my hand. My hand is the means used to perform the action on behalf of my whole.

In an abstract manner, this is the same way God and his spirit are. His spirit is an integral part of him, but can only function in accordance with what he wills it. The functions and attributes of the spirit can be applied to God as a whole, but God's whole can not be applied to the spirit. So that, if we speak of God's presence (spirit) as the verses in the first post, we can say that we can not hide from God's presence, and we can also say we can not hide form God. Both are correct, because the spirit (presence, or more accurately omnipresence) is the means by which God is performing the action in the context. To extend this further, if the spirit guides one to the truth, the function of the spirit at that point is in guiding. We can accurately say that God guided man to the truth. The spirit is performing the actions in accordance with God's will, as an extension of God. The functions and attributes of the spirit can accurately be attributed to God (in the same manner that my hand can be attributed to me), but the whole of God can not be applied to the spirit.

Maybe this clarifies my stance further for you, since you weren't quite clear when I used the word entity. :) BTW, we do not have to agree. I am perfectly fine with us not reaching any sort of agreement. I do agree with part of what you are saying, but not completely. Some of that could be your choice of words used as well. When speaking of God and the spirit, obviously we are getting into more abstract ideas, which are not always explained well with concrete examples.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-17-2010, 04:28 PM
Very interesting argumentation, but there is absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind--repeat anyone's--now that you are a Trinitarian. Unless maybe they've never read a Trinitarian article in their lives. Maybe. I'm not going to actually demand that you fess up: you don't have to. At this point it would be so superfluous as to be silly.

I have covered both the Trinity itself and the sort of issues we've been discussing here.
Reply

PouringRain
10-17-2010, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Very interesting argumentation, but there is absolutely no doubt in anyone's mind--repeat anyone's--now that you are a Trinitarian. Unless maybe they've never read a Trinitarian article in their lives. Maybe. I'm not going to actually demand that you fess up: you don't have to. At this point it would be so superfluous as to be silly.

I have covered both the Trinity itself and the sort of issues we've been discussing here.


I find your assessment and confidence in that assessment to be very interesting, considering what I wrote does not fit in with trinitarian doctrine. What definition of trinitarian are you using? I looked at your website and I couldn't find anywhere that you provided a concise definition of what you define as the trinity.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-24-2010, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
I find your assessment and confidence in that assessment to be very interesting, considering what I wrote does not fit in with trinitarian doctrine. What definition of trinitarian are you using? I looked at your website and I couldn't find anywhere that you provided a concise definition of what you define as the trinity.
There is no single, universal, and fully coherent definition of the Trinity, and there never ever will be. But I know Trinitarian thought when I see it so clearly expressed. If you're not a Trinitarian, you sure seem close enough to it to make the difference imperceptible, at least to me.
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-25-2010, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PouringRain
In post #25 I defined it as "something that can exist on its own" & "has its own existence, independent, self-contained, etc." And in Post 27 I wrote "exists apart (on its own).

I realize that entity can mean different things, as can spirit, which is why I made attempts early on to be clear which definitions I was using.

The word quality can also have various meanings, and it is not a word I'd personally use to describe the spirit. Although, I would use it to describe some other attributes of things you mentioned earlier.

If I was to explain the "spirit" in a concrete manner (since understanding the spirit is very abstract), I'd describe it in this manner:

If I reach down and pick up a stone with my hand, it would be correct to say that "my hand picked up the stone" but it would be equally correct to say that "I picked up the stone." Both are correct, and my hand is both a part of me and also representative of me as a whole, but clearly my hand is not me. My hand acts in accordance with my will and can do no thing on its own. In this manner it is an integral part of me. Obviously, no one would look at my hand and say, "oh, you are beautiful" or "you are kind" or "you are mighty"-- because my hand is not representative of my whole in that manner. My hand can only be representative of my whole in the manner in which it functions. "I (my hand) picked up the stone." "I (my hand) pushed the box." I (my hand) am strong in grasp." So, the functions and the attributes of my hand can be applied to me as a whole, but my whole can not be applied to my hand. My hand is the means used to perform the action on behalf of my whole.

In an abstract manner, this is the same way God and his spirit are. His spirit is an integral part of him, but can only function in accordance with what he wills it. The functions and attributes of the spirit can be applied to God as a whole, but God's whole can not be applied to the spirit. So that, if we speak of God's presence (spirit) as the verses in the first post, we can say that we can not hide from God's presence, and we can also say we can not hide form God. Both are correct, because the spirit (presence, or more accurately omnipresence) is the means by which God is performing the action in the context. To extend this further, if the spirit guides one to the truth, the function of the spirit at that point is in guiding. We can accurately say that God guided man to the truth. The spirit is performing the actions in accordance with God's will, as an extension of God. The functions and attributes of the spirit can accurately be attributed to God (in the same manner that my hand can be attributed to me), but the whole of God can not be applied to the spirit.

Maybe this clarifies my stance further for you, since you weren't quite clear when I used the word entity. :) BTW, we do not have to agree. I am perfectly fine with us not reaching any sort of agreement. I do agree with part of what you are saying, but not completely. Some of that could be your choice of words used as well. When speaking of God and the spirit, obviously we are getting into more abstract ideas, which are not always explained well with concrete examples.

Pouring Rain, I can see why Yahya Sulaiman might be convinced that you are a trinitarian after reading this post. The way you explain the relationship between the whole man and the hand is similar to the way that many trinitarians try to explain the relationship between the individual persons of the Trinity and the whole of God. However, such an explanation would be modalism, and you are correct that it is not actual trinitarianism. But, forgive Yahya Sulaiman, it is what often passes for trinitarianism in most conversations among those who claim they are trinitarians. And though I know it is really more modalism than pure trinitarianism, even I seldom try to correct people when they express their understanding of the Trinity this way.

It might be helpful, at least to me, if you were to take the next step and articulate your points of differentation from traditional trinitarian beliefs.
Reply

PouringRain
10-26-2010, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Pouring Rain, I can see why Yahya Sulaiman might be convinced that you are a trinitarian after reading this post. The way you explain the relationship between the whole man and the hand is similar to the way that many trinitarians try to explain the relationship between the individual persons of the Trinity and the whole of God. However, such an explanation would be modalism, and you are correct that it is not actual trinitarianism. But, forgive Yahya Sulaiman, it is what often passes for trinitarianism in most conversations among those who claim they are trinitarians. And though I know it is really more modalism than pure trinitarianism, even I seldom try to correct people when they express their understanding of the Trinity this way.

It might be helpful, at least to me, if you were to take the next step and articulate your points of differentation from traditional trinitarian beliefs.
Modalism states that the forms are consecutive and never simultaneous. This is not what I am describing at all in the hand analogy, considering that one's functions through one's hand can not occur in the absence of the individual. Modalism suggests that there is one God who exists in three modes or forms; whereas, Trinitarianism suggests that there is one God, who exists in three persons, co-eternal and co-equal, having one essence. Non-trinitarian doctrines sometimes reject even one aspect of the Trinitarian doctrine.

I agree with you that my view of the spirit is not Trinitarian, as it does not view the spirit as a co-equal with God. The view of the spirit as emanating from God is a non-trinitarian view, but it is not modalism (even though modalism is a non-trinitarian view also).
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-26-2010, 05:40 AM
Ah, sorry, I didn't get the focuse on the emanating idea from my first reading of what you said. I thought you were focusing on the part of the whole aspect with the hand being part of the body, but not the whole of the body. Thanks for clearing that up.
Reply

IAmZamzam
10-26-2010, 09:51 AM
Again, smoke emanates from fire....
Reply

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