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truth finder
10-14-2010, 05:41 PM
Music is one of the greatest arts that human beings have created and enjoyed since the creation of the world. In a sense it is a universal language without words for all nations and ages. Most of us remember great composers such as Handel, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and so on. As we listen to the songs composed by these great musicians, they tend to bring the beauty of nature closer to us. Personally I do not like loud wild music or some other music promoting self-pity and immorality. Besides this kind of unhealthy music, I believe music is a great art that God allowed us to enjoy. This is even more so in the context of worshipping God. Every morning I wake up early to have a personal worship time with God for about 30 minutes. All I do during this time is praising God with song and music. Actually this is the best time every day and my great joy from this worship carries me through the whole day. When good lyrics (often prayers) are combined with good music, the synergy effect is explosive. Psalms are well known songs in the Bible many believers such as King David enjoyed greatly in worshiping God. As an example, I write you the last psalm to show you how it is like.

Praise the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens.
Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness.
Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre,
Praise him with tambourine and dancing, praise him with the strings and flute,
Praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
Let everything that has breath praise the LORD. Praise the LORD.(Psalms 150:1-6)

If I am not mistaken, however, I was told that music is discouraged or even banned in Islam. Is it true?
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Tyrion
10-14-2010, 06:23 PM
From what I can tell, people differ on the matter. It seems like most people on this board feel that music is forbidden though.

I've personally seen very intelligent Muslims argue both sides, and I don't really understand why or how music as a whole can be forbidden. However, I still don't really listen to it for a number of different reasons.
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Asiyah3
10-14-2010, 07:00 PM
Peace,

We don't need Music to worship Allah swt. Music distracts the heart and mind, and brings an unrealistic spirit.
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PouringRain
10-14-2010, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
From what I can tell, people differ on the matter. It seems like most people on this board feel that music is forbidden though.

I've personally seen very intelligent Muslims argue both sides, and I don't really understand why or how music as a whole can be forbidden. However, I still don't really listen to it for a number of different reasons.
I have heard very differing opinions also.

Some people say "no" to all. (Actually, most seem to be in this camp.)

Some say that certain instruments were allowable. (I forget which ones. I think there were 3 of them. Perhaps someone can share.)

Some say that music is not allowed, but if the lyrics are worshiping God then they are allowable.

I can completely understand and agree with the reasoning behind why music is not permissible.... but not in a blanket statement way, since not all music would fall within that. Singing is a form of music, it is making music with the mouth, and even the Qur'an is sung in recitations. So, in that sense, not all music can be considered forbidden.

I, like the opening poster, often use music in my worship to God. I walk around the house singing praise songs while I do housework even.
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glo
10-14-2010, 08:17 PM
Like Pouring Rain I find singing songs which glorify and praise God a great way of dedicating my time and myself to God.

I hold a key to our local church, because I go there quite regularly to clean or tidy one thing or another, and I particularly love being there all alone, singing my heart out!
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Insecured soul
10-14-2010, 11:48 PM
Christians have made ibadaah (worship) entertainment in thier religion, there is a need of entertainment but we muslim do not agree with singing and dancing in the mosque

there is a need of entertainment of everyone but worship is worship, we dont have any singing in our mosque but we have many things which fills our heart
like how we stand shoulder to shoulder in salaah and arrange ourselves and bow down and prostrate at the same time.

and in haj when u see millions of people doing the same thing, i personally feel how deprived we would be if we never had such things in our worship

we dont have so much of music and singing in our worship but allah had blessed with this kind of worship

and then we have concept of ramadan in which u have to fast and break the fast, whole concept is so beautiful, we would really be deprived without all this.
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Trumble
10-15-2010, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Runaway
Peace,

We don't need Music to worship Allah swt. Music distracts the heart and mind, and brings an unrealistic spirit.
That must depend on the music, surely... not all music is 'singing and dancing'! Wrong religion sure, but something like Bach's St Matthew Passion is about as close to God/ultimate reality as art can take you. I don't believe there is a God, of course, but the idea that if there was He would gift composers like Mozart, Bach and Beethoven with the genius they had to produce something forbidden just seems utterly absurd.
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PouringRain
10-15-2010, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Insecured soul
Christians have made ibadaah (worship) entertainment in thier religion,
Sadly, in many churches, yes, it has become this.

Good post!
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Ummu Sufyaan
10-15-2010, 02:55 AM
why would the melodious voice of someone along with the music instruments make one closer to god? why would any of those factors have any bearance (sp?) of our worship of god. i personally find melodious voices and instruments can be rather annoying and i cant figure out how such disruption can me feel closer to god.
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Lynx
10-15-2010, 03:25 AM
One positive thing about music + worship is that music tends to stir up emotions and songs about something like God's praise might stir up the appropriate emotions one would like to feel towards God. Something like a love song except about God and more...appropriate in content :)

Music is an interesting phenomenon.
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truth finder
10-15-2010, 03:26 AM
As I mentioned, one of the greatest worshippers in history, King David, enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments. Numerous Christians have also shared the same experience. Human beings are not robots and there are always some people who do not have the same view. Perhaps some Christians prefer worshiping God without music. I have no problem with that. You may belong to this class of people. But it should not justify that all music must be forbidden in worshiping God. For instance, some people do not like riding a car. Even tens of thousands of people are killed in car accidents each year. Then do we have to ban all cars on the street? When good lyrics or prayers are combined with good music, many (if not all) believers have enjoyed greatly worshipping God. I am one of them.
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Zafran
10-15-2010, 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
As I mentioned, one of the greatest worshippers in history, King David, enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments. Numerous Christians have also shared the same experience. Human beings are not robots and there are always some people who do not have the same view. Perhaps some Christians prefer worshiping God without music. I have no problem with that. You may belong to this class of people. But it should not justify that all music must be forbidden in worshiping God. For instance, some people do not like riding a car. Even tens of thousands of people are killed in car accidents each year. Then do we have to ban all cars on the street? When good lyrics or prayers are combined with good music, many (if not all) believers have enjoyed greatly worshipping God. I am one of them.
You have to think - when your listening to Music are worshipping the music or God? Music can give you a five minute emotional rush - then its over. The love of God is always there for anyone that believes in God with a tune or not.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that Music is definitly not needed to get close to God - that can be done in many ways - as for Muslims the Quran and sunnah are the best things to stick with rather then these grey areas.
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islamaholic™
10-15-2010, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Insecured soul
Christians have made ibadaah (worship) entertainment in thier religion, there is a need of entertainment but we muslim do not agree with singing and dancing in the mosque
I don't know if it's just me, but there is something weird about busting a move and shaking your hips and bottoms infront of the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth <_<

I feel awkward doing that infront of my family, how much more Him? :embarrass
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Ramadhan
10-15-2010, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by islamaholic™
I don't know if it's just me, but there is something weird about busting a move and shaking your hips and bottoms infront of the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth
Most likely it was left over from pagan practices.

They danced and sang to their gods.
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islamaholic™
10-15-2010, 09:53 AM
lol, were they trying to entertain God or what? Astaghfirullah.
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Insaanah
10-15-2010, 10:18 AM
In Islam, we glorify and praise Allah without music.

We don't need any extraneous things to pray or worship, or to somehow attempt to make it more enjoyable for us.

We concentrate on what we are saying, the beautiful words we say in praise are far more meaningful than any music can ever be...

We praise and glorify Allah from the minute we are conscious when waking, to the last moments before we sleep, when going about our daily business we glorify and praise the Lord, even when entering or leaving the lavatory, we praise Allah for having relieved us.

Music is used in many other settings, and the use of music in worship would not be as something done especially for God. e.g. it is used in discos and nightclubs too, and even though it may be a different type of music, it is still music. In Islam, we prostrate to Allah in our five daily prayers, an act of submission and humility, reserved strictly for Allah only.

Indeed music can lead to inappropriate behaviour. Even in some churches, you see undignified behaviour with people waving their arms, and jumping and shouting and wiggling body parts.

The recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears, not only in it's meaning, but it's sound. Kate Humble from the BBC was moved to tears when she heard the adhaan (call to prayer) echoing from the minarets of Jeddah.

We worship Allah with a combination of love, hope and fear. We glorify Him, exalt His Majesty, and praise Him, and ask Him for our worldly needs, and for success in the hereafter, with full presence of heart and mind. No music is needed to either praise Him or to add to our enjoyment of our worship. No music, nothing else in the background, just us and Him. The words themselves, the silence in between the words, captures something that no music ever can or will.

Peace.
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Ramadhan
10-15-2010, 10:34 AM
There's something wrong if you need music to move you and get close to god.
It actually reminds me of those people in ancient times and even today who needed drugs to be in a state where they feel very close to god.
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glo
10-15-2010, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
There's something wrong if you need music to move you and get close to god.
Why do you think it is wrong, naidamar?
It may be different from how you get close to God, but does that necessarily make it wrong?

I have seen people striving to draw closer to God in many different ways:
Some seek solace and quiet, others seek the company of fellow believers; some pray out loud, some sit silently; some sing, others don't; some move as they feel comfortable, others move and pray in unison within a group; some come to a place of worship, others stay at home, others again seek to be outdoors ...

So many different ways.
Which are right and which are wrong, and who makes that judgement?
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obedient-muslim
10-15-2010, 02:39 PM
listen to Quran.Argument Over.
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Ramadhan
10-15-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by glo
I have seen people striving to draw closer to God in many different ways:
Some seek solace and quiet, others seek the company of fellow believers; some pray out loud, some sit silently; some sing, others don't; some move as they feel comfortable, others move and pray in unison within a group; some come to a place of worship, others stay at home, others again seek to be outdoors ...
I see. From your explanation, i can only conclude that for you, any way is a good way as long as it draws people to god.
Based on this, I guess you approve some people who claim they get closer to god when they are having sex with other people's partners, or when they get naked and holding hands singing and dancing while high on marijuana, etc etc
I have seen/read news on how those cults pray, glo. Those people too do claim they get closer to god while they were doing things I mentioned above or worse.
And please don't say they do the wrong thing.
Because, who are we to judge?
(sorry can't resist using a variation of your favorite phrase, you don't mind do you)

Originally Posted by glo
So many different ways.
Which are right and which are wrong, and who makes that judgement?
Great, so you agree with those pagans who use fire dance and worship a cow because they truly believe it draws them to god.
Is your view regarding using any way to draw us closer to god just your personal view, or is it the view of christianity?

I just hope you are not one of those many christians who says one thing, but whats in their heart is the opposite.

a question to you:

Did Jesus sway his hips, shake his bootay and dance and and sang to instrumental music when he was praying to and worshipping his god?
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truth finder
10-15-2010, 03:39 PM
Of course, glo was not talking about cults or music used in cults. Do you think King David was a cult leader? King David, one of the greatest worshippers in history, used both his voice and musical instruments. Because of limited space, I list only three verses in which King David enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments.

David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
David said, "Of these, twenty-four thousand are to supervise the work of the temple of the LORD and six thousand are to be officials and judges. Four thousand are to be gatekeepers and four thousand are to praise the LORD with the musical instruments I have provided for that purpose." (1 Chronicle 23:4-5)
David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. (1 Chronicle 25:1)
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Ramadhan
10-15-2010, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Of course, glo was not talking about cults or music used in cults
who are you to judge which is cult and which is not and who makes that judgement?
Read again what glo said.



Originally Posted by truth finder
Do you think King David was a cult leader? King David, one of the greatest worshippers in history, used both his voice and musical instruments. Because of limited space, I list only three verses in which King David enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments.
Last time I checked, this is Islamic Board, and in Islamic board, we don't use bible as authority, especially to determine how/ways of worship
So you need to cut down on that, and better yet, please bring islamic argument to support your argument that music is allowed in worship.

If you insist on using bible verses, bring it to comparative religion where there is already threads like qur'an vs. bible to verify whether david pbuh really used instrumental music as his mean of worship.

And by the way, since your name is truth finder, i suggest you to read and study more Al Qur'an since it is the truth. May Allah gives you guidance. amiin.
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Dagless
10-15-2010, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Of course, glo was not talking about cults or music used in cults. Do you think King David was a cult leader? King David, one of the greatest worshippers in history, used both his voice and musical instruments. Because of limited space, I list only three verses in which King David enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments.
You keep mentioning King David, but in Islam I don't think it is accepted that Dawood (as) played any instrument, so it's not an argument which can be used.

The bottom line is that music alters your state of consciousness and while it's not going to be as bad as drugs or alcohol, the effect is definitely apparent. When we pray we should keep a clear head and be able to concentrate. If your mind is on the music or heightening emotion (which is not akin to heightening prayer), you're concentrating less on the prayer.

I also don't think marvelling at how good someone is at playing an instrument makes it acceptable. You may see God in skill, but there are skilful assassins, that doesn't mean killing people is a beautiful thing and should be used in religious worship.

The boundaries in prayer have been set, and we have no authority to change them.
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PouringRain
10-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
The recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears, not only in it's meaning, but it's sound. Kate Humble from the BBC was moved to tears when she heard the adhaan (call to prayer) echoing from the minarets of Jeddah.
The majority of qur'an recitations I have heard, are music. They are not set to any instruments, no, but they are sung. Music created with the voice. The adhaan, those I have heard, are most often sung. I watched a video of prayer yesterday, and it was sung. (Most prayer videos I have seen and when I have prayed with another, it was not sung.) Nasheeds are sung.
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Muhaba
10-15-2010, 05:10 PM
One positive thing about music + worship is that music tends to stir up emotions and songs about something like God's praise might stir up the appropriate emotions one would like to feel towards God. Something like a love song except about God and more...appropriate in content

Music is an interesting phenomenon.
Music only seems to stirs up sexual / romantic emotions.

whenever i've listened to nasheed sung to musical instruments my mind wasn't focused on God. It wasn't like listening to the Quran which is recited without music. One needs to sincerely analyze their feelings to see whether they are thinking of God more when worshipping with music or when worshipping without it.

As I mentioned, one of the greatest worshippers in history, King David, enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments. Numerous Christians have also shared the same experience. Human beings are not robots and there are always some people who do not have the same view. Perhaps some Christians prefer worshiping God without music. I have no problem with that. You may belong to this class of people. But it should not justify that all music must be forbidden in worshiping God. For instance, some people do not like riding a car. Even tens of thousands of people are killed in car accidents each year. Then do we have to ban all cars on the street? When good lyrics or prayers are combined with good music, many (if not all) believers have enjoyed greatly worshipping God. I am one of them.
That's the Christian belief. Islamically we know that Allah had given King Prophet David (A.S) a very beautiful voice and he used to recite the praises of Allah (God) and the birds and mountains would recite with him. there were no musical instruments involved. Allah says in the Quran: We bestowed Grace earlier on David from Ourselves. "o mountains, echo you back the Praises of Allah with him, and you birds (also). And We made the iron soft for him.
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truth finder
10-15-2010, 05:40 PM
I was told by Muslim friends that Torah and Psalms are accepted as holy scriptures for Muslims. I can quote numerous verses where believers enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments.

When we Christians think about worshipping God, the first word that comes to our mind is joy, the joy of salvation! To us the most important part of worship is expressing our joy and thanks in most genuine ways. Music is one of the powerful ways to express our joy to God. Of course, in worship music is not a goal in itself, but a way to express our joyful and thankful emotions to the Creator. The other parts of worship include supplications and listening to sermons, which are usually more quite without music.
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Asiyah3
10-15-2010, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx
One positive thing about music + worship is that music tends to stir up emotions and songs about something like God's praise might stir up the appropriate emotions one would like to feel towards God. Something like a love song except about God and more...appropriate in content :)
Exactly. Music tends to stir up emotions.

As Muslims we're always supposed to be in a clear and natural state of mind.
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Muhaba
10-15-2010, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I was told by Muslim friends that Torah and Psalms are accepted as holy scriptures for Muslims. I can quote numerous verses where believers enjoyed worshipping God with musical instruments.

When we Christians think about worshipping God, the first word that comes to our mind is joy, the joy of salvation! To us the most important part of worship is expressing our joy and thanks in most genuine ways. Music is one of the powerful ways to express our joy to God. Of course, in worship music is not a goal in itself, but a way to express our joyful and thankful emotions to the Creator. The other parts of worship include supplications and listening to sermons, which are usually more quite without music.
Torah and Psalms were Holy scriptures revealed by God and we must believe in them but what you've got aren't the original forms. You can even tell when you're reading it, which part are original and which aren't. For example, in the verses about praising the Hymns of God, you can see that the ones about praising God to musical instruments and dance have been added.
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truth finder
10-15-2010, 06:25 PM
Because our minds are tuned in to God most of the time, music stirs the joy and love of God in our heart. In a sense music stirs up our emotions deeply hidden in our heart. I do not understand why music stirs sexual / romantic emotions in you. Is this because you think about these things all the time?

I have already showed you what music instruments King David used in his worship for God. Just in case you missed it, I write it again for you.

David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
David said, "Of these, twenty-four thousand are to supervise the work of the temple of the LORD and six thousand are to be officials and judges. Four thousand are to be gatekeepers and four thousand are to praise the LORD with the musical instruments I have provided for that purpose." (1 Chronicle 23:4-5)
David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. (1 Chronicle 25:1)
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Muhaba
10-15-2010, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Because our minds are tuned in to God most of the time, music stirs the joy and love of God in our heart. In a sense music stirs up our emotions deeply hidden in our heart. I do not understand why music stirs sexual / romantic emotions in you. Is this because you think about these things all the time?
I don't believe that. I've seen people dancing to islamic nasheed (poems sung to music) and going wild, shaking all parts of their bodies, it was obviouse they weren't thinking of God.

I have already showed you what music instruments King David used in his worship for God. Just in case you missed it, I write it again for you.

David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
David said, "Of these, twenty-four thousand are to supervise the work of the temple of the LORD and six thousand are to be officials and judges. Four thousand are to be gatekeepers and four thousand are to praise the LORD with the musical instruments I have provided for that purpose." (1 Chronicle 23:4-5)
David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. (1 Chronicle 25:1)
The Quranic verse is far more beautiful and effective. Read it again:
We bestowed Grace earlier on David from Ourselves. "O mountains, echo you back the Praises of Allah with him, and you birds (also). And We made the iron soft for him.

How beautiful. mountains and birds praising God with David (A.S). no musical instruments were needed.
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Alpha Dude
10-15-2010, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't believe there is a God, of course, but the idea that if there was He would gift composers like Mozart, Bach and Beethoven with the genius they had to produce something forbidden just seems utterly absurd
This is a silly argument to make. Anyone could say the same about anything that is impermissible. For example, one could consider himself to be a 'gifted' theif. Going by your logic, it would have been 'absurd' to make theft haraam too.
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Lynx
10-15-2010, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
This is a silly argument to make. Anyone could say the same about anything that is impermissible. For example, one could consider himself to be a 'gifted' theif. Going by your logic, it would have been 'absurd' to make theft haraam too.
Music and stealing are completely different. For one, thievery hurts people and no society could function if it were not forbidden. Jeez.
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Lynx
10-15-2010, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Runaway
Exactly. Music tends to stir up emotions.

As Muslims we're always supposed to be in a clear and natural state of mind.
Listening to a beautiful recitation of the Quran has the same effect don't you think? Isn't that why Muslims are discussing all the time which Reciter is the best or sounds good? The addition of melody or music can act as a catalyst when trying to incite some kind of reaction or emotion such as Love or etc.
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Insecured soul
10-15-2010, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
It may be different from how you get close to God, but does that necessarily make it wrong?

I have seen people striving to draw closer to God in many different ways:
we get close to god in a way that pleases allah swt, we cannot invent our own ways to do that, we worship allah the way we were told by prophets
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Insaanah
10-15-2010, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by PouringRain
The majority of qur'an recitations I have heard, are music. They are not set to any instruments, no, but they are sung.
They may sound beautiful, but they are neither song nor music. We beautify the Qur'an with our voices to give it due honour and to distinguish it from any other book. Not even ahadeeth are read in that fashion. It is not sung. If you listen to recitations of the Qur'an, while the sounds may be melodious and enjoyable, they are quite distinct from songs and singing. We don't say we are going to sing the Qur'an, we recite the Qur'an. If we were to take (for argument's sake just to illustrate my meaning) the example of "singing without music", I think this is what everybody understands music to be: the use of instruments. So just because something sounds nice, doesn't make it music. And recitation in a nice tone doesn't equate to singing.

Originally Posted by truth finder
King David, one of the greatest worshippers in history, used both his voice and musical instruments
Jesus (peace be upon him) prostrated himself to God when he prayed.

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed..." (Matthew 26:39).

Jesus (peace be upon him), if I'm not mistaken, is the most central figure in Christianity.

Do Christians prostrate in their worship also?

Biblical Prophets (peace be upon them) made ablution before prayer, removed their shoes, faced a direction of prayer, bowed, prostrated (all pretty much like Muslims do)

I don't see many Christians doing these things.

Peace.
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Asiyah3
10-15-2010, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx
Listening to a beautiful recitation of the Quran has the same effect don't you think? Isn't that why Muslims are discussing all the time which Reciter is the best or sounds good?
Peace,

The Qur'aan is a guidance for mankind. It is a guidance in all aspects of life, a revelation from Allah swt, the One, the Almighty, not an entertainment or a 'LA-LA' fantasy world.

The recitation of the Qur'aan is beautiful. Allah is beautiful and Allah loves beauty. When I listen to the Qur'aan, it's the message, it's meaning and beauty that I see, affects me and guides me in my life.

As for Muslims favoring one reciter's voice, it's only natural to find someone's voice more beautiful and attractive, right? Like I mostly listen to the recitation of Shuraim, because I love his voice the most, his style of reciting, his speed and stressing of the words. That helps me in memorizing.


The addition of melody or music can act as a catalyst when trying to incite some kind of reaction or emotion such as Love or etc.
As already explained, in Islam, we don't need Music to worship Allah swt or to make the worship more enjoyable for us. Worshiping Allah is a full joy. We don't feel any less complete without music.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 08:58 PM
Peace Lynx
Originally Posted by Lynx
Listening to a beautiful recitation of the Quran has the same effect don't you think? Isn't that why Muslims are discussing all the time which Reciter is the best or sounds good? The addition of melody or music can act as a catalyst when trying to incite some kind of reaction or emotion such as Love or etc.
You are indeed incorrect, listening to the Quraan does not have same effect as listening to music! Try listening to the Quran : )

Music makes one dance and sometimes go crazy depending on the genre, Qu`raan does NOT make one go crazy and start jumping up and down like a lunatic, it lets us "Muslims" connect to his Lord spiritually whereas muslim does not, although you may have your own opinion.Yes Muslims do talk about their fave recitors because we all have a "variety" of different recitors who recite in different ways, but i dont understand how that relates to Music in any way?

Listening to the Quraan is also a way to get close to our creator.
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Alpha Dude
10-15-2010, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx
Music and stealing are completely different. For one, thievery hurts people and no society could function if it were not forbidden. Jeez.
It's true that music doesn't 'hurt' anyone but that's irrelevant here.

Kindly read Trumble's post again. He tried to point out an absurdity on the part of God for 'gifting' someone with good music skills yet prohibiting the use of it.

I pointed out this is a silly and inconsistent argument to make since people could just as well say that about any act they are good at which goes against the commands of God.

Theft was just an example - you may substitute in its place something else that in most non-muslim minds does not harm people, e.g. homosexual behaviour. I.e. a gay person could say: 'isn't it absurd that God made me such an awesome homosexual, yet I am not allowed to practice it?'

A point to note here is, if all people were given the freewill to decide exactly what constitutes right and wrong behaviour, then there would be a massive inconsistency. One person's right would be wrong for others and vice versa.

However, as far as muslims are concerned, Allah has given us the law and it is not up to us to circumvent or make our own rules up.
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truth finder
10-15-2010, 09:17 PM
Prayer is any communication between God and human beings. Several postures are fine for prayer. Jesus also prayed to the Father while standing with his hands raised. When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. (Luke 24:51). Jesus also prayed to the Father while sitting on the dining table. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." (Matthew 26:26) Many Christians (including me) often like to pray with our hands lifted high above, and with our face toward the heaven longing to meet and see our Creator. Some Christians like praying to God in prostration. I have no problem with that. Worshiping is enjoying God as much as we can, and expressing our joy and thanks in most genuine ways. The heart of the matter is the matter of heart, not the matter of posture.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by PouringRain
The majority of qur'an recitations I have heard, are music. They are not set to any instruments, no, but they are sung. Music created with the voice. The adhaan, those I have heard, are most often sung. I watched a video of prayer yesterday, and it was sung. (Most prayer videos I have seen and when I have prayed with another, it was not sung.) Nasheeds are sung.
You must be mistaken, no Quran recitations contain "music" in them. The Quran literally means the recitation, so the Quran is recited but in a beautiful way. The Azhaan is not sung its recited in a beautiful way to bring people to pray, that is why it is known as the "Call to prayer". Do you have the link to the vid?

However "some" Nasheeds do not contain musical instruments so this doesnt make them "music". They are basically "read" but nasheeds are not as important as the Quraan as the Quran is the word of God. However, i really dont think singing is same as music. When you add musical instruments this then makes it Music. Hope i made sense :-\

Peace
Reply

serena77
10-15-2010, 09:26 PM
salaam -

okay... i'm new.. ive not reverted yet... but... i have a question and if it was answered in this thread or in another and i missed it, my most humble apologies.. i'm still trying to navigate the site. and there is a lot to go through, but...
Are nasheeds considered music? if no instruments are they wrong.... or unislamic. Its odd ...because i was raised a fiddle player... teaching myself the guitar.... while I have played in church .... for me the fiddle is ... well i have my own no religious reasons for it..... but anyway.... Nasheeds are so beautiful.... and in a sense they have helped draw me closer to Islam. They are beautiful... and maybe due to the religious life i've had to this point... they bring me closer to God ... they have taught me about islam... even if its just teaching me about how important it is to listen and not let the everyday world get to you... so... Nasheeds are okay as long as no music.. or with a drum?

There seem to be so many different schools of thought... how does on even keep them straight?
I hope the question makes sense , work was stressful to say the least and so i'm having trouble being clear, and my sincere apologies if i step on any toes...

Serena
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 09:28 PM
Peace to you

Originally Posted by truth finder
Prayer is any communication between God and human beings. Several postures are fine for prayer. Jesus also prayed to the Father while standing with his hands raised. When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. (Luke 24:51). Jesus also prayed to the Father while sitting on the dining table. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." (Matthew 26:26) Many Christians (including me) often like to pray with our hands lifted high above, and with our face toward the heaven longing to meet and see our Creator. Some Christians like praying to God in prostration. I have no problem with that. Worshiping is enjoying God as much as we can, and expressing our joy and thanks in most genuine ways. The heart of the matter is the matter of heart, not the matter of posture.
How ironic "Jesus prayed to the Father while standing with his hands raised"! As Muslims we know that Jesus (Pbuh) raised his hands to God Allmighty and praised him. As muslims we raise our hands when asking Allaah Allmighty your creator and mine.

But did God ask you to dance and sing to praise him? Yes i indeed enjoy standing infront of Allmighty God and praising him but honestly i could never see the creator of the Universe being worshipped in such way. We can also enjoy worshipping God without singing.
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czgibson
10-15-2010, 09:55 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Insaanah
They may sound beautiful, but they are neither song nor music. We beautify the Qur'an with our voices to give it due honour and to distinguish it from any other book. Not even ahadeeth are read in that fashion. It is not sung. If you listen to recitations of the Qur'an, while the sounds may be melodious and enjoyable, they are quite distinct from songs and singing. We don't say we are going to sing the Qur'an, we recite the Qur'an. If we were to take (for argument's sake just to illustrate my meaning) the example of "singing without music", I think this is what everybody understands music to be: the use of instruments. So just because something sounds nice, doesn't make it music. And recitation in a nice tone doesn't equate to singing.
Qur'an recitations consist of organised sound with fixed pitches and rhythmic effects which derive from the poetic language. They fit the definition of 'song' as well as any purely vocal music, such as Gregorian chant or other a capella performances. All responses to the recitation that you feel that are not directly related to the textual content or personal feelings towards the reciter are the effects of music.

Peace
Reply

Insaanah
10-15-2010, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Worshiping is enjoying God as much as we can, and expressing our joy and thanks in most genuine ways.
Christians seem to worship God with joy only, whereas Muslims worship with a combination of love, hope and fear. The prayer itself in the ahadeeth has been described as a joy and a sweetness for the eyes.

It seems that Christians believe that loving God means not having any fear, and instead they should "enjoy a state of permanent forgiveness". This is where it must be pointed out that love on its own becomes an extreme, to the extent that it gives one a false sense of security against God's Wrath. It opens the way for one to do as he pleases instead of doing what is required - submitting to God's Will.

One of the most beautiful things about the concept of worship in Islaam is the truly unique way in which it incorporates the feeling of love, fear and hope within the hearts of the worshippers of Allaah.

Love of Allaah, hope in His Mercy and fear of His Punishment.

Love and gratitude for the one who has given us so much that we could not enumerate it if we tried.

Hope in He Who is full of Mercy, that He will forgive our mistakes and shortcomings on the Day, when all of humanity shall stand before Allaah account for their sins, knowing that not even the smallest action which they did is hidden from Allaah.

Fear that we may incur punishment by doing wrong.

The love makes us do what is prescribed with an open heart and makes us thankful, the fear checks us from sinning, and the hope keeps us going when we have sinned.

Originally Posted by truth finder
The heart of the matter is the matter of heart, not the matter of posture.
The heart of the matter is obeying God, worshipping Him alone, in the way that He taught us, and not deviating from that by one iota.

Peace.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by serena77
salaam -

okay... i'm new.. ive not reverted yet... but... i have a question and if it was answered in this thread or in another and i missed it, my most humble apologies.. i'm still trying to navigate the site. and there is a lot to go through, but...
Are nasheeds considered music? if no instruments are they wrong.... or unislamic. Its odd ...because i was raised a fiddle player... teaching myself the guitar.... while I have played in church .... for me the fiddle is ... well i have my own no religious reasons for it..... but anyway.... Nasheeds are so beautiful.... and in a sense they have helped draw me closer to Islam. They are beautiful... and maybe due to the religious life i've had to this point... they bring me closer to God ... they have taught me about islam... even if its just teaching me about how important it is to listen and not let the everyday world get to you... so... Nasheeds are okay as long as no music.. or with a drum?

There seem to be so many different schools of thought... how does on even keep them straight?
I hope the question makes sense , work was stressful to say the least and so i'm having trouble being clear, and my sincere apologies if i step on any toes...

Serena
Wa Alaaykum Salaam Serena

May Allaah guide you to the righteous path Ameen

Firstly you must know that the nasheeds that contain instruments are considered forbidden, no they are not wrong if they do not have instruments.

According to Quran and Sunnah musical instruments are forbidden, and keep in mind Music meaning an act that takes you away from the remembrance of your Lord as from my experience music does that very well. i call it the tool of Shaytaan.

As Muslims we are the followers of Islaam, and the Prophet Muhammad (May the peace and blessings of Allaah be unto him) was a perfect example set for mankind to follow. So what did in his life we do that, as God has displayed him as a good example for us to follow

as mentioned in this Ayah: "And We have not sent you except as a mercy to mankind"(Al Quraan 21:107)

Say (O Muhammad SAW to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Quran and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."(Al Quran 3.31)

The Prophet Peace be upon didnt listen to music nor did he encourage it, and as Muslims thats all we need to believe, we dont need music. He told us how to live our lives,so if he didnt since he was the best of Examples, then we follow him.

Do the words/lyrics of the Nasheeds bring you closer to Islaam or the ones that contain musical instruments bring you closer with the rhythm because they sound nice? If not then you can listen to nasheeds without Musical instruments. so there is no need to add music if the words are what are important, i hope i make sense.

I apologise if i didnt make sense, i do hope someone with more knowledge can answer your Question in a better way.


peace
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



Qur'an recitations consist of organised sound with fixed pitches and rhythmic effects which derive from the poetic language. They fit the definition of 'song' as well as any purely vocal music, such as Gregorian chant or other a capella performances. All responses to the recitation that you feel that are not directly related to the textual content or personal feelings towards the reciter are the effects of music.

Peace
The effects of Music?

The Effects of Music include, dancing, jumping and moving in different weird ways, this does not happen while listening to the Quran.

And like i mentioned above, the Quran - The Recitation, hence reciting in different ways. I think you should compare the effects of the Quraan to the effects of Music!.
Reply

czgibson
10-15-2010, 10:08 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

The effects of Music?

The Effects of Music include, dancing, jumping and moving in different weird ways, this does not happen while listening to the Quran.
This may be true, but are these the only effects of music? Someone mentioned that the recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears - the same is true of music.

Peace
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-15-2010, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


This may be true, but are these the only effects of music? Someone mentioned that the recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears - the same is true of music.

Peace
Yes but crying doesnt mean that its regarded as Music. There are things in life that also make us cry, for example when a loved one passes away we cry, we cry in happiness etc etc.

Yes that is indeed the truth that the Quraan has moved grown men to tear up, but has Music? Also the words of Quraan have benefit in them and those who dont even understand tear up, this doesnt happen with Music. There is no benefit in listening to some sad song or love song or whatever.But again this is the opinion of a muslim against an Athiest who has no belief.
Reply

Asiyah3
10-15-2010, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


This may be true, but are these the only effects of music? Someone mentioned that the recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears - the same is true of music.

Peace
Peace,

What do you call something that is sang? A song.
What do you call something that is recited? A recitation.

The Qur'aan is a recitation. Hence, it is recited.

A song is sang.
A recitation is recited.
Reply

czgibson
10-15-2010, 10:34 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє
Yes but crying doesnt mean that its regarded as Music.
Did I claim that it does?

Yes that is indeed the truth that the Quraan has moved grown men to tear up, but has Music?
Yes. I've just mentioned it.

Also the words of Quraan have benefit in them and those who dont even understand tear up, this doesnt happen with Music.
You may not be aware of it, but it does happen.

There is no benefit in listening to some sad song or love song or whatever.But again this is the opinion of a muslim against an Athiest who has no belief.
My lack of religious belief doesn't really have any bearing on my understanding of what music is. In a converse way, your orthodox opinion does not alter the fact that Qur'an recitations rely significantly on musical features for their effect.

Peace
Reply

serena77
10-15-2010, 10:49 PM
salaam
no you did answer quite well. it is the words, the meaning( both said and not ) that have drawn me. i haven't listened yet to a lot of those who perform the Nasheeds, at the same time i have yet to find one i didnt like. I do like that drums can be used.....but thats the musician in me..... i love how the harmonies can be used to make a point clearer when the message said is still very simple. i don't speak arabic.. though honestly would like to learn and so as of yet all the nasheeds i've listened to have been in English and if i've liked one that did use music - i have tried to find its counterpart that didnt.

thank you again for taking the time to respond. I'm most thankful.
Serena
Reply

Hugo
10-16-2010, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Christians seem to worship God with joy only, whereas Muslims worship with a combination of love, hope and fear. The prayer itself in the ahadeeth has been described as a joy and a sweetness for the eyes. It seems that Christians believe that loving God means not having any fear, and instead they should "enjoy a state of permanent forgiveness". This is where it must be pointed out that love on its own becomes an extreme, to the extent that it gives one a false sense of security against God's Wrath. It opens the way for one to do as he pleases instead of doing what is required - submitting to God's Will.
This may be your understanding of how Christian see it but it is far from being correct. Christianity is more than accepting a series of statements about Jesus, true though they are. We have to accept that we are sinners and can only escape punishment by God's mercy not anything we can do or say, but knowing this does not even make us Christian - for that we have to make a personal decision and the call is for us to give up self and forfeit the world. That is we must renounce sin with no compromises, renounce self and give up the very principles of self-will and deny ourselves - so there is a cost. So you are wrong to suggest that Christians sit back and enjoy - forgiveness we have but our lives are dedicated to God and a life long struggle for Holiness and our fear is not His wrath so much as a conciousness that every sin brings pain to God and implies a shameful disregard for his mercy and how far we fall short of his majestic standards. There is of course joy for how can we be joyless when we know God has provided a way of salvation - from a Music point of view as the Psalmist said Psalm 150:1-10 (KJV)

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.

Of course as you say we can praise God in silenced and surely that is sometimes right but when we see his great and wonderful works how can we keep silent?
Reply

serena77
10-16-2010, 12:42 AM
there is something about singing is the highest form of prayer.... i don't know if thats a christian thing in general or specifically a catholic thing.. i do have to *chuckle* the 6 verses he named are from my favorite catholic hym..... I was sitting here trying to imagine the hymn in the style of the nasheed.... honestly i can...... the biggest reason i always like hymns w/ music is so i stay on key... the words still have their power w/o music ...

the nasheeds i'm looking to though are teaching me that its easier to stay on key than i once thought..... and that while i grew up w/ music being in every part of my possible, i'm quickly learning, its not as necessary as i once thought.

peace to all
serena
Reply

Hugo
10-16-2010, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, This may be true, but are these the only effects of music? Someone mentioned that the recitation of the Qur'an has moved grown men to tears - the same is true of music.Peace
This is true and often there is almost nothing that touches us so deeply as Music, perhaps especial when thing in life are hardest and words just cannot express how we feel deep inside. For me such experiences are in what is called Classical Music but it must occur for others in other forms of Music. Music of course is Universal and as far as I know there is not a single culture or time where Music in one for or another has been ascent. Scientifically there is no doubt that music has benefits (though of course not every kind of music) and if you search the net you will find plenty of evidence in including a study if my memory serves me that show that babies in the womb put on weight more quickly for some kind of music. Music also seem to be attached to language in some way and again there are many studies on that and it would account for the many many music styles found all over the world in worship and elsewhere.

Incidentally somewhere in this board is a long and detailed discussion of why Music is not Islamic - I cannot quite find it again but perhaps someone knows where it is?
Reply

truth finder
10-16-2010, 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

Christians seem to worship God with joy only, whereas Muslims worship with a combination of love, hope and fear. The prayer itself in the ahadeeth has been described as a joy and a sweetness for the eyes.

It seems that Christians believe that loving God means not having any fear, and instead they should "enjoy a state of permanent forgiveness". This is where it must be pointed out that love on its own becomes an extreme, to the extent that it gives one a false sense of security against God's Wrath. It opens the way for one to do as he pleases instead of doing what is required - submitting to God's Will.

One of the most beautiful things about the concept of worship in Islaam is the truly unique way in which it incorporates the feeling of love, fear and hope within the hearts of the worshippers of Allaah.

Love of Allaah, hope in His Mercy and fear of His Punishment.

Love and gratitude for the one who has given us so much that we could not enumerate it if we tried.

Hope in He Who is full of Mercy, that He will forgive our mistakes and shortcomings on the Day, when all of humanity shall stand before Allaah account for their sins, knowing that not even the smallest action which they did is hidden from Allaah.

Fear that we may incur punishment by doing wrong.

The love makes us do what is prescribed with an open heart and makes us thankful, the fear checks us from sinning, and the hope keeps us going when we have sinned.



The heart of the matter is obeying God, worshipping Him alone, in the way that He taught us, and not deviating from that by one iota.

Peace.

In fact some Muslim friends have made a similar comment to me before: Christians enjoy immorality because they always talk about the love of God through Jesus Christ, instead of God's judgment and punishment. First of all a Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus Christ as God’s forgiveness for our sins. It does not matter if he/she was born to Christian parents, or he/she was baptized when young, or he/she goes to church every Sunday, or he/she is a priest or pastor or even a pope. Presumably a large fraction of people you think are Christians, are merely churchgoers. Do you think Christians enjoy an illegal sexual relationship outside of marriage? Do you think we enjoy watching pornography secretly at night? Do you think we support abortion and same sex marriage? Do you think we take drugs secretly? Of course not! Not at all! When people deeply experience the breadth and depth of God's love that was most explicitly demonstrated through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, they naturally stay away from immorality. “While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). I am one of many living examples. This is the best and perhaps the most effective way to stay away from sin. Instead of struggling hard to avoid committing sins supplemented with the constant reminder of the threat of hell fire, we need to deeply experience the breadth and depth of God's love through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” (Matthew 26:28). This is the power of the love of God. It does all, love, joy, hope, accountability and healthy fear. The obvious result of struggling hard to avoid committing sins supplemented with the constant reminder of the threat of hell fire, is a guilt and fear driven life. The main concern of people with this state is to perform some kind of religious duties and rituals to compensate for their past sins and mistakes. They are often plagued by the urgent need to engage in certain rituals that are usually repetitive. As they perform these rituals, they may feel temporarily better, but there is no long-lasting sense of satisfaction or completion after the act is performed. Often, these people believe that if the ritual isn't performed, something dreadful will happen. Yes, the love of God does all, love, joy, hope and healthy fear for most (if not all) Christians. I am one of them.
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Tyrion
10-16-2010, 02:37 AM
While I would agree for the most part that Music should be kept out of worship, I feel like some of the things being said here by Muslims are just... Well, ridiculous. So many members are trying to say why they believe it to be forbidden, but the reasons being given are just laughable... (Well, in my opinion anyway.) Sure, some music will cause some people to feel like getting up and dancing or singing along... But you cannot say that for all music. What about classical music? Instrumentals? I know you don't want to admit it, but some people do benefit from this kind of music, and they simply don't do the things you're saying they do. I think it would be far more respectable if some of the members just said they don't listen to music because they believe that's what has been commanded, instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments. (Most of which I'm pretty sure aren't even found in Islamic texts...)

Again, this is just my opinion... I hope what I've said hasn't offended anyone.
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PouringRain
10-16-2010, 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє

You must be mistaken, no Quran recitations contain "music" in them. The Quran literally means the recitation, so the Quran is recited but in a beautiful way. The Azhaan is not sung its recited in a beautiful way to bring people to pray, that is why it is known as the "Call to prayer". Do you have the link to the vid?

However "some" Nasheeds do not contain musical instruments so this doesnt make them "music". They are basically "read" but nasheeds are not as important as the Quraan as the Quran is the word of God. However, i really dont think singing is same as music. When you add musical instruments this then makes it Music. Hope i made sense :-\

Peace
You do make sense, because you say that you equate "music" with something that includes instruments. That is very clear. To me, singing without instruments is still music. The word "music" is even included in the definition of the word "sing." It is making music with the voice. Music can exist completely without instruments. By the very definition of "music" it is also clear that the voice alone can make music.

When I listen to recitations, most that I have heard, they are sung and are music. They are no different than if I listened to the Pslams being sung a capella. (Or any other passage of the Bible.) When Glo and I mentioned singing praises to God, a capella, we are doing so without any instruments.


There are even Christians churches who also do not believe in the use of instruments in their music-- so all music is sung a capella.

I realize that a part of your argument is that the Qur'an is recited, not sung, but honestly the manner in which it is recited is considered "singing." I have even read about Muslim's taking voice lessons to be able to sing it well. I have also seen and heard Muslims everywhere who refer to recitations as being sung. I would agree that a "recitation" alone does not mean that something is sung. There are certainly recitations which are not sung.

This article is interesting: http://www.quranreciters.com/wp/index.php/category/1/

There are other interesting articles on the topic, but that one seems more comprehensive and detailed than most others.
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Insecured soul
10-16-2010, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed.
subhan allah, even esa alaysalam used to make sujood to allah azzawajal, i guess every prophet did that and alhamdolillah every muslim do too
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Lynx
10-16-2010, 05:42 AM
Originally Posted by Runaway
Peace,

The Qur'aan is a guidance for mankind. It is a guidance in all aspects of life, a revelation from Allah swt, the One, the Almighty, not an entertainment or a 'LA-LA' fantasy world.

The recitation of the Qur'aan is beautiful. Allah is beautiful and Allah loves beauty. When I listen to the Qur'aan, it's the message, it's meaning and beauty that I see, affects me and guides me in my life.

As for Muslims favoring one reciter's voice, it's only natural to find someone's voice more beautiful and attractive, right? Like I mostly listen to the recitation of Shuraim, because I love his voice the most, his style of reciting, his speed and stressing of the words. That helps me in memorizing.
So Muslims who listen to Quran recitations for pleasure (i.e., not to understand a message since, let's say, they don't understand arabic or need to memorize) are doing something wrong? in that instance i can't think of a difference between music and listening to quran recitation.

As already explained, in Islam, we don't need Music to worship Allah swt or to make the worship more enjoyable for us. Worshiping Allah is a full joy. We don't feel any less complete without music.
I never claimed you needed music to worship Allah; clearly you don't *need it* as many Muslims can worship God and they don't ever listen to music.

@Muslimah

You are indeed incorrect, listening to the Quraan does not have same effect as listening to music! Try listening to the Quran : )
I have many many times.

Music makes one dance and sometimes go crazy depending on the genre, Qu`raan does NOT make one go crazy and start jumping up and down like a lunatic, it lets us "Muslims" connect to his Lord spiritually whereas muslim does not, although you may have your own opinion.Yes Muslims do talk about their fave recitors because we all have a "variety" of different recitors who recite in different ways, but i dont understand how that relates to Music in any way?
I don;t know why so many people keep saying music makes everyone dance and go crazy. I listen to music and I am the last person to dance or go crazy. Anyway, my point about having favourite reciters is that in it's almost, if not the same, as having a favourite singer. What exactly is the difference? Most of the time people are judging the sound of the voice.
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Lynx
10-16-2010, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
It's true that music doesn't 'hurt' anyone but that's irrelevant here.

Kindly read Trumble's post again. He tried to point out an absurdity on the part of God for 'gifting' someone with good music skills yet prohibiting the use of it.

I pointed out this is a silly and inconsistent argument to make since people could just as well say that about any act they are good at which goes against the commands of God.
If music does not hurt anyone and some people are created with an undeniable gift in music then it does seem strange for God to forbid the use of that talent especially since there's no reason to forbid it as there is with other haraam things like theft. I hope that clears up what I am trying to say.

Theft was just an example - you may substitute in its place something else that in most non-muslim minds does not harm people, e.g. homosexual behaviour. I.e. a gay person could say: 'isn't it absurd that God made me such an awesome homosexual, yet I am not allowed to practice it?'
Lol, yeah I happen to find it odd that God creates gay people and then forbids them from acting upon it; it's unfortunate that while many of us straight people have the potential to meet someone we can truly love and sped the rest of our lives with, a portion of us humans are denied that pleasure. Maybe I am a sentimental guy, but it kind of sucks to deny someone a profound emotion like love.

A point to note here is, if all people were given the freewill to decide exactly what constitutes right and wrong behaviour, then there would be a massive inconsistency. One person's right would be wrong for others and vice versa.

However, as far as muslims are concerned, Allah has given us the law and it is not up to us to circumvent or make our own rules up.
I respect the fact that rules are rules; we're just having a friendly discussion about possible reasons to why such are the rules :)
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Ramadhan
10-16-2010, 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Prayer is any communication between God and human beings. Several postures are fine for prayer. Jesus also prayed to the Father while standing with his hands raised.

Did jesus sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc when he was praying to and worshipping his god?
Reply

Asiyah3
10-16-2010, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
While I would agree for the most part that Music should be kept out of worship, I feel like some of the things being said here by Muslims are just... Well, ridiculous. So many members are trying to say why they believe it to be forbidden, but the reasons being given are just laughable... (Well, in my opinion anyway.) Sure, some music will cause some people to feel like getting up and dancing or singing along... But you cannot say that for all music. What about classical music? Instrumentals? I know you don't want to admit it, but some people do benefit from this kind of music, and they simply don't do the things you're saying they do. I think it would be far more respectable if some of the members just said they don't listen to music because they believe that's what has been commanded, instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments. (Most of which I'm pretty sure aren't even found in Islamic texts...)

Again, this is just my opinion... I hope what I've said hasn't offended anyone.
:sl:
We're not trying to justify music being forbidden. Rules are rules. We're neither expecting a non-Muslim to agree with music's prohibition. We are Muslims and we follow the Qur'aan and Sunnah. However, we are discussing the possible effects of music because a non-Muslim asked us. I don't see anything wrong in this, or do you mean whenever a non-Muslim asks us about an Islamic ruling we should answer "Because Allah says so"?

The truth is there is a wisdom behind everything prohibited. Allah has forbidden from us that which is bad for us. There is nothing wrong in trying to discuss why it could be bad for us. For example if you check this thread a non-Muslim did start to understand that there is a wisdom behind the rulings:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1363517

There is a difference in understanding and agreeing. I can understand why non-Muslims date years before getting married, yet I don't agree.
Reply

M.I.A.
10-16-2010, 10:14 AM
music cant make you go crazy all the time, they wouldnt have put radios in cars otherwise.
anyway thats the only time i listen to music and at work if the radios on... its a bad habbit of mine. :hiding:
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-16-2010, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Lynx
@Muslimah

I have many many times.

I don;t know why so many people keep saying music makes everyone dance and go crazy. I listen to music and I am the last person to dance or go crazy. Anyway, my point about having favourite reciters is that in it's almost, if not the same, as having a favourite singer. What exactly is the difference? Most of the time people are judging the sound of the voice.
Well from what ive seen, ive seen people dance to tunes and dance like crazy , and the OPs Question was regarding Music in worship and not in general life. you choose to listen to Music, your will do what you will. But my opinion is that praising God with Music i see no need. However, you may have a different opinion regarding that and i have no problem.

Note that the OP asked the Q regarding what the Islamic view is and not your personal views.
The difference is that we are reciting the Quraan a holy book we tend to choose to read that as it keeps us strong in faith , whereas your singing some song or listening to it and whatever you choose to do that.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-16-2010, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
While I would agree for the most part that Music should be kept out of worship, I feel like some of the things being said here by Muslims are just... Well, ridiculous. So many members are trying to say why they believe it to be forbidden, but the reasons being given are just laughable... (Well, in my opinion anyway.) Sure, some music will cause some people to feel like getting up and dancing or singing along... But you cannot say that for all music. What about classical music? Instrumentals? I know you don't want to admit it, but some people do benefit from this kind of music, and they simply don't do the things you're saying they do. I think it would be far more respectable if some of the members just said they don't listen to music because they believe that's what has been commanded, instead of trying to justify it with flimsy arguments. (Most of which I'm pretty sure aren't even found in Islamic texts...)

Again, this is just my opinion... I hope what I've said hasn't offended anyone.
Classical music? Instrumentals and the benefit from them? Islamically what benefit is there? Please Explain InshaAllaah.

There was once a lecture regarding the topic of Music i cannot remember the lecture. The shiekh Mentioned that the Heart can love one thing in a sense. That if you make yourself listen to Music constantly, like almost in love with it as you can see with many in this world today, and then when you listen to the Quraan you will not want to listen to it, your love for the Quran is not there, you get bored you dont want to listen to it etc. But if you listen to the Quraan constantly, and then you play music, you will hate the music, your love is only for the Quraan you will hate music. I can for a fact 100% say that it is true. Anyways i hope i made sense.


Peace
Reply

Hugo
10-16-2010, 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by мυѕℓιмαн 4 ℓιfє
Classical music? Instrumentals and the benefit from them? Islamically what benefit is there? Please Explain InshaAllaah.
The benefit is in listening to what is beautiful and how the sounds mix and mingle and themes are explored and how this can be satisfying and deeply personal. There is also of course the absolute Joy of playing the music yourself or singing with others. From a simple point of view who would discourage a mother singing a lullaby to a sick child and kids love singing and making music. There also sacred music where a text is taken and set to music and this can be hugely uplifting in praise to God for all he has done.

If one goes down the road of "benefit" than everything we do comes under that spotlight from football to needle point - all these are part of who we are but of course they can be abused and draw us away from God - but surely we can and should worship, serve and praise Him in all we do, with respect we cannot be reciting the Bible or Qu'ran all the time can we?
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Dagless
10-16-2010, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
The benefit is in listening to what is beautiful and how the sounds mix and mingle and themes are explored and how this can be satisfying and deeply personal. There is also of course the absolute Joy of playing the music yourself or singing with others. From a simple point of view who would discourage a mother singing a lullaby to a sick child and kids love singing and making music. There also sacred music where a text is taken and set to music and this can be hugely uplifting in praise to God for all he has done.
That satisfaction is only what you feel, it still alters your state of consciousness. Small doses of heroin can be deeply satisfying too, but it isn't used in worship.
There is absolute joy in a lot of things but 1) feeling joy does not make something beneficial, and 2) not everyone feels joy at music.

Originally Posted by Hugo
If one goes down the road of "benefit" than everything we do comes under that spotlight from football to needle point - all these are part of who we are but of course they can be abused and draw us away from God - but surely we can and should worship, serve and praise Him in all we do, with respect we cannot be reciting the Bible or Qu'ran all the time can we?
That doesn't make sense. God has told us how to worship, serve, and praise Him - but you say we can't just do that all the time? Do you know better than God? :S
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Ramadhan
10-16-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm forever amused by christians.

When it comes to mosaic laws in OT which hinder their lifestyles (such as circumcision, not eating pork, fasting, etc etc), they would say "oh, when jesus died, it abrograted the mosaic laws so we are not supposed to observe them"

But when it fancies them, although it is only in their OT and jesus did not observe it, they quickly say "oh, but david did it, so we can do it too".

which I find staggering.
Christians believe jesus is god, and do they not want to pray and worship in the same way of their god?

But No, and now because christians today want to use instrumental music in their worship they point out to david who according to OT use instrumental music (which I dont think it's true, based on the Quran), while Jesus definitely never used instrumental music in his worship, and it seems he sang hymns in the same manner of a muslim reciting quran.
Reply

truth finder
10-18-2010, 04:55 PM
Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.
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Dagless
10-18-2010, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.
Lol! Well that was subtle... maybe you'd like to hand out some pamphlets too? ;)
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Hugo
10-18-2010, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
That satisfaction is only what you feel, it still alters your state of consciousness. Small doses of heroin can be deeply satisfying too, but it isn't used in worship.
There is absolute joy in a lot of things but 1) feeling joy does not make something beneficial, and 2) not everyone feels joy at music. That doesn't make sense. God has told us how to worship, serve, and praise Him - but you say we can't just do that all the time? Do you know better than God? :S
I cannot speak about heroin as I have never experienced it but I assume you know what it is like or are you just telling us what you have been told? However, it is undeniable that Music can bring Joy and that joy can be lasting, meaningful and good and anyone who denies that knows nothing whatever about Music or joy. From you words it seems to be you have a very narrow conception of worship so may I ask, do you think worship is just saying your prayers or do you have a wider definition?

Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."

So of course one can worship in prayer and reading but if ones whole life is given over to God then every simple act, from washing up to the most heroic action becomes a form of worship because we do it FOR God. Do you not agree that one could say ones prayers faultlessly but if that is not all worked out in your life in godly actions and holy living it is worthless?
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-18-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.
Seems that the people be listening to Music, and call themselves "Christians", do you ever recall Jesus Pbuh singing or praising God with Music?
Same story can be applied to Islaam, there are former drugs addicts, theives etc etc who chose to forget alot of that and become a clean and rightoues person. Also we as muslims do believe in Jesus (peace and blessings be unto him), one is not a "Muslim" if they do not believe in Jesus(pbuh).

Thanks for sharing the story though, very much appreciated

Peace
Reply

Hugo
10-18-2010, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I'm forever amused by christians. When it comes to mosaic laws in OT which hinder their lifestyles (such as circumcision, not eating pork, fasting, etc etc), they would say "oh, when jesus died, it abrograted the mosaic laws so we are not supposed to observe them". But when it fancies them, although it is only in their OT and jesus did not observe it, they quickly say "oh, but david did it, so we can do it too". which I find staggering. Christians believe jesus is god, and do they not want to pray and worship in the same way of their god?

But No, and now because christians today want to use instrumental music in their worship they point out to david who according to OT use instrumental music (which I dont think it's true, based on the Quran), while Jesus definitely never used instrumental music in his worship, and it seems he sang hymns in the same manner of a muslim reciting quran.
In the OT there are 631 laws but many are effectively obsolete because they refer to circumstances or institutions that no longer exist - for example the Temple or laws about showing yourself to the priest for certain kinds of illness and many other laws of a ceremonial nature. One can of course use any or all of these laws in an analogical sense. I assume Islam does the same - for example the Qu'ran has verses that tells you how to decide the end and beginning of days in Ramadan but you don't do that now, you uses a clock so you are disobeying one of Allah's laws?

There is a famous story about the illustrious Rabbi Hillel who died about 30 years before Jesus’ ministry. The story goes that he was asked by someone to teach him the whole of the Torah while he stood on one leg. Hillel replied “love your neighbour as yourself, this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary". Do you see the point, focusing on the minutiae of the law is like not being able to see the forest for the trees so if you or I say our prayers faithfully but fail to love our neighbour as ourselves then the whole point of the law is lost and its only end is self-righteousness.

There is no need to point to David for music (though Muslim scholars do) because music, singing and instruments are mentioned almost everywhere, even Moses is recorded as singing - surely you cannot think rationally that the Bible has been corrupted to such an extent that Music has been inserted into all over the place when it was not there before?
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Dagless
10-18-2010, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
I cannot speak about heroin as I have never experienced it but I assume you know what it is like or are you just telling us what you have been told?
So you only speak about things you've experienced? I don't think saying heroin brings about a sense of satisfaction or well-being is anything revolutionary. If you have some other evidence then please go ahead.

Originally Posted by Hugo
However, it is undeniable that Music can bring Joy and that joy can be lasting, meaningful and good and anyone who denies that knows nothing whatever about Music or joy.
Not all music brings joy, and not all people feel joy from music.

Originally Posted by Hugo
From you words it seems to be you have a very narrow conception of worship so may I ask, do you think worship is just saying your prayers or do you have a wider definition?
Like I've already stated; it's not my definition, and it doesn't matter what I think. The rules of worship have already been stated by God.

Originally Posted by Hugo
Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."
Ok, but people can also state that drugs bring them closer to God. I don't see how stating other religions makes the argument stronger. The fact remains that music directly affects concentration and state of consciousness - you can quote as many religions as you like but it won't change that fact.
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Hugo
10-18-2010, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
So you only speak about things you've experienced? I don't think saying heroin brinsg about a sense of satisfaction or well-being is anything revolutionary. If you have some other evidence then please go ahead.
I can only speak with authority about things I have experienced - that seem obvious. I don't think I said or even implied that ALL music brings joy or is good; there are lots of kinds of music I dislike but since you seem to think in universals it is obvious that not all music is bad. I have read a large number of hadith on Music and one central idea is that it MIGHT lead you into sin but to me that argument must also apply to almost anything else - reading, writing, watching a films, talking,... all directly affects conciousness and it is undoubtedly true that they can lead you away from what is best but they are not intrinsically evil are they surely - so why single out Music? Many people as you probably know have used excerpts from the Qu'ran in films to denounce Islam itself - I guess you would think that wrong even blasphemous so here we have something, the Qu'ran itself used for a wrong?
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Dagless
10-18-2010, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
I can only speak with authority about things I have experienced - that seem obvious. I don't think I said or even implied that ALL music brings joy or is good; there are lots of kinds of music I dislike but since you seem to think in universals it is obvious that not all music is bad. I have read a large number of hadith on Music and one central idea is that it MIGHT lead you into sin but to me that argument must also apply to almost anything else - reading, writing, watching a films, talking,... all directly affects conciousness and it is undoubtedly true that they can lead you away from what is best but they are not intrinsically evil are they surely - so why single out Music?
I have never seen a hadith which showed it was allowable or even one which was ambiguous towards music in worship.


Originally Posted by Hugo
Many people as you probably know have used excerpts from the Qu'ran in films to denounce Islam itself - I guess you would think that wrong even blasphemous so here we have something, the Qu'ran itself used for a wrong?
Not too sure what this means.
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Muhaba
10-18-2010, 09:59 PM
Christians are entitled to their own opinions regarding music or whatever. But don't come here trying to convince us Muslims that we are wrong and that one can get closer to God with Music. We believe that Music is forbidden by God and God obviously knows better with what we can get closer to Him and what will take us farther away from God and religion.

Those who want to learn about Islam should not let this point become a hindrance. They should learn Islam, reading Quraan and Islamic history, getting to know muslims, etc. to know whether it is the truth or not. And once you get enough information and have made up your mind regarding this religion, then insha-Allah (God willing) you will be enlightened and will accept whatever this religion has ordained.
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Tyrion
10-18-2010, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
Christians are entitled to their own opinions regarding music or whatever. But don't come here trying to convince us Muslims that we are wrong and that one can get closer to God with Music. We believe that Music is forbidden by God and God obviously knows better with what we can get closer to Him and what will take us farther away from God and religion.

Those who want to learn about Islam should not let this point become a hindrance. They should learn Islam, reading Quraan and Islamic history, getting to know muslims, etc. to know whether it is the truth or not. And once you get enough information and have made up your mind regarding this religion, then insha-Allah (God willing) you will be enlightened and will accept whatever this religion has ordained.
Well, not all Muslims feel this way... It's not very honest of you to make it sound like it's totally unanimous. In fact, I didn't even know some Muslims considered music forbidden until I came onto this forum.
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Muhaba
10-18-2010, 10:39 PM
Music is forbidden in Islam. you should research this. you can read the commentary to Surah Luqman where you'll find the ruling on music. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's allowed.
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Tyrion
10-18-2010, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
Music is forbidden in Islam. you should research this. you can read the commentary to Surah Luqman where you'll find the ruling on music. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's allowed.
I don't want to get into my own personal views here... I just wanted to point out that it's not something that everyone agrees on, and that there isn't total unanimity on the issue.
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Muhaba
10-18-2010, 11:01 PM
oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?
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Tyrion
10-18-2010, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?
I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.
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Muhaba
10-18-2010, 11:43 PM
well, that's the thing. it doesn't matter what someone believes. beliefs automatically doens't make them right. They have to back their beliefs with evidence from Quraan and Sunnah. if they don't have it, then it is an incorrect belief and they will be asked by Allah and even be punished.
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truth finder
10-19-2010, 12:08 AM
People tend to draw to whatever brings pleasure or joy to them. For instance, drug addicts are drawn to drug because it brings pleasure to them. Of course it is very unhealthy pleasure as we all agree. Although most of these people know taking drug is wrong, they cannot escape its enslavement for fear of losing pleasure. The same is true with many other chronically sinful behaviors such as pornography, sex abuse and alcoholism. A well-known traditional way is to punish them harshly so that they would stop their sinful acts for fear of punishment. Simply people try hard to suppress their sinful desires with the reminder of hell fire. It may work temporarily, but easily fails in the long run. The best solution is to bring much greater healthy joy to them so that they would seek this joy rather than other temporary sinful pleasures. This is the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in the loving relationship with Jesus. I do not know how many of readers have really expedited this kind of intensive joy in the love of God. Without exaggeration I can tell other people that all the other joys or pleasures in life is nothing compared with this joy. This is one of the reasons why I get up an hour early every morning to enjoy the joyful personal time with God. All I do during this time is to worship and praise God with songs and music.
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Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Everywhere in the Bible one finds music and singing as part of worship - everywhere. For example, when the Arc of the Covenant was restored to Israel we read (1 Chron 13:8 (NIV) "David and all the Israelites were celebrating with all their might before God, with songs and with harps, lyres, tambourines, cymbals and trumpets.". At the other end of the scale we have Job hearing of the death of his sons but even in that great anguish we hear (Job 1:18-22 (NIV) ".. Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship ...."

Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Last weekend our church had a guest speaker from Chicago. He has run a street church for more than 10 years. His church has currently about 200 members and more of them are former drug addicts, alcohol addicts, thieves and prostitutes. According to him about 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, recovered from their previous sinful habits and started contributing to the society. They had been addicted to drug, alcohol, theft and sex for 10 to 20 years and some of them for their life time. According to his testimony, these addicts could not liberate themselves from the pleasure of the substances or their behaviors in all previous efforts. These included the warning of the danger of those chemicals and even the warning of hell for their sinful life style. Basically nothing worked for them. But one day it came to his mind that the only way to stop their chronically sinful habits is for them to experience the joy of salvation through Jesus so that the previous pleasures would be nothing compared with this new joy in their heart. It worked spectacularly for most of them and 10,000 people have gone through his ministry, fully recovered from their previous sinful habits. According to him, the experience of the love of God in joyful worship service combined with music was the major driving force of this wonderful success. When good lyrics or prayers were combined with good music, the good synergy effect was beyond our imagination. I fully agree with his strategy. All worldly pleasures are incomparable to the joy of salvation or the joy of the presence of God in our loving relationship with Jesus. Now I joyfully pursue a holy life, not because I am scared of the threat of hell fire, but because sinful behaviors are not appealing any more.


Let's just assume what you said is 100% true.

I've got news for you:

The pagans, the primitive tribes, the shamans have all done what your priest friend did:

They have cured people from their physical and mental illnesses using music and dance, and joy of the salvation from their gods and goddesses.

so, are you now going to join those tribes?

Here's some tribes in Kalimantan (Indonesia) where you might want to convert to:

Reply

Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
There is no need to point to David for music (though Muslim scholars do) because music, singing and instruments are mentioned almost everywhere, even Moses is recorded as singing - surely you cannot think rationally that the Bible has been corrupted to such an extent that Music has been inserted into all over the place when it was not there before
Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?

And if music is such an important part of christian worship as christians claim today, why did jesus not ask his disciple to sway their hips, shake their bootay, danced their hearts out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when they were praying to and worshipping their god?
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truth finder
10-19-2010, 03:20 AM
Hi naidamar

The fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, while those tribes do not. The fundamental difference is that people cured from the physical and mental illnesses praise and glorify the God of the universe, while those tribes do not. The fundamental difference is that we experience intense joy in the love of Jehovah, while those tribes do not.
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Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, while those tribes do not.
Are you a jehovah witness?

Originally Posted by truth finder
The fundamental difference is that people cured from the physical and mental illnesses praise and glorify the God of the universe, while those tribes do not.
anyway, who are you to say that those tribes did not praise and glorify the God of the universe?


Originally Posted by truth finder
The fundamental difference is that we experience intense joy in the love of Jehovah, while those tribes do not.
Excuse me, but those tribes also experience intense joy in the love of their god.


You see, I am showing you that your priest friend experience using music to cure people is not unique.

Anyway, this is to ponder:

Did jesus sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?
Reply

Hugo
10-19-2010, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
oh really? There are hadith that prove that music is forbidden. And mainstream muslims believe it is forbidden. which factions don't believe that and what is there evidence that it isn't forbidden?
Can you tell us where in the Qu'ran it says music is forbidden, as far as I can tell the word music is never used but I can only look it up in English. In the hadith it is used but I can only find about 6 examples and none of those are clear at least to me because of their contexts. For example there is one that speaks of camels knowing they will be slaughtered when they hear music and another that seems to say music and wearing silk is not always good - so its anything but clear to me - so perhaps you can explain. When I go to the middle east, which is often, I don't see much evidence and everyone seems to have music on in their cars and you can buy CDs everywhere plus even in Saudi Arabia there is a concert hall???
Reply

Hugo
10-19-2010, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Did jesus (a person you consider god, let me remind you) sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god? And if music is such an important part of christian worship as christians claim today, why did jesus not ask his disciple to sway their hips, shake their bootay, danced their hearts out to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when they were praying to and worshipping their god?
Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns. But where do you get all this swaying of hips and so on and you seem to be confusing music and dancing - though in general I find nothing wrong with dancing. The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not. Just a question, but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time, when I see Muslim pray there also is a lot of movement and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?

Why would it be wrong to shout or even scream hallelujah (just as some Muslims shout 'God is Great', or is that wrong?) if one want to praise God and at the same time one can praise God in silence from the heart. When I look at the stars and the wonders of nature as well as what God has done for us I can hardly keep quite sometimes - am I wrong?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns.
singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an

So, my question remains :

Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?


Originally Posted by Hugo
The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not
It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car.
That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.

Originally Posted by Hugo
but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time
And your point is....?

Originally Posted by Hugo
and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?
Are you a jew?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-19-2010, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns.
singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an

So, my question remains :

Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?


Originally Posted by Hugo
The trouble is that you are drawing unwarranted conclusions for if we extend your argument one might as well argue that Jesus or Mohammed did not drive a car so we should not
It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car.
That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.

Originally Posted by Hugo
but when I see people memorising the Qu'ran they are often shown moving their whole bodies at the same time
And your point is....?

Originally Posted by Hugo
and if you see Jews at the Wailing Wall you will find them moving their whole bodies and they do it because they want their whole attention focused on God so moving whilst engaging in worship is not of necessity wrong is it?
Are you a jew?
Reply

Hugo
10-19-2010, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
singing hymns to me sounds like when a muslim reciting the qur'an
Well I have heard both and in some cases the analogy is sound such as singing metrical Psalms but there is huge variation and different cultures may well be more or less inhibited in how they worship - but it is God the looks to the heart not just the outward manifestation - is this how you see it in Islam?

So, my question remains : Did he sway his hips, shake his bootay, danced his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god?
I cannot think that I can be any clearer that what I said in my earlier post "Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns but how exactly is unknown."

It is interesting to note that you make analogy for the way we worship god with the way we travel and drive car. That explains why some christians do all kinds of disgusting things when they pray and worship god, because apparently "everything goes" in christianity, including how they pray and worship god.
You are just inventing things now and deciding that because you don't like what others do that it is automatically disgusting but that does not make it wrong and perhaps points to a trace of your own self-righteousness and readiness to judge others but not necessarily throw a light on your own attitude. But tell me what do you think of say Sufi's and whirling dervishes as part of Islamic worship?
Reply

truth finder
10-19-2010, 01:09 PM
Hi naidamar

I think hugo made the good answer to your question. Many people are drawn closer to God in worship with music, while others are drawn closer to God in worship without music. That is fine, because we are not robots and we are all different. In a previous post I said that when good lyrics or prayers are combined with good music, the synergy effect is quite dramatic. Of course good lyrics or prayers are more important than music. Without good lyrics or prayers, it would be just a musical performance. In worship music is not a goal in itself but a good way to get closer to the presence of God.

In previous posts you seemed to ask me a few times “What makes Christians joyful?” In the biblical time God’s presence was allowed as the Holy Spirit only to a few special people such as Moses, Elijah and Elisha. In the new era of grace initiated by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit can come to anybody whose sinful heart is washed away by the blood of Jesus. This state, namely, all our sins are forgiven by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness and as a result the Holy Spirit dwells in our heart, is called salvation. We are joyful because we have confidence to meet God face to face in heaven. We are joyful because God is with us right in our heart as the Holy Spirit. You may not know how much joyful we are as the children of God. Of course we have peace in our heart, but it is too weak to describe our spiritual journey. Joy is the right word to express our genuine emotion in our loving relation with Jesus.
Reply

Asiyah3
10-19-2010, 01:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Well, not all Muslims feel this way...
As-salaamu alaykum,

Islam is not what is felt, especially by present-day's Muslims considering (generally) our poor understanding of the religion. Islam is based on the Qur'aan and Sunnah.

Abu Dawood narrated that the prophet SAAS said: "...I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs. Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error."

If you really want to follow this advice of the Prophet SAAS, the following thread could be a start:

http://www.islamicboard.com/worship-...an-sunnah.html

If you know of some companions of the Prophet SAAS or well-known scholars, such as Hasan al-Basri, who used to play or listen to musical instruments and say it's halal, al-hamdulillah I'm open-minded to hear the explanation. I've read a few refutations of some scholars that try to defend music but to be blunt, they've been pretty lame.

It's not very honest of you to make it sound like it's totally unanimous. In fact, I didn't even know some Muslims considered music forbidden until I came onto this forum.
Most Muslims I know listen to Music, but al-hamdulillah these many also admit that music is forbidden or say they don't know. Some others don't even bother to seek Islamic knowledge and haven't even heard the Hadiths on music. Many born Muslims belong to this group unfortunately, knowing only that which their parents have taught them or that which they've read in school, which are often the most basic things about Islam (Often something along the lines don't eat pork, don't drink alcohol, pray, fast, read the Qur'aan etc.). And some others aren't willing to follow the ruling even if they hear it and the evidence for it, and keep following their culture and/or whims and desires.

Originally Posted by Tyrion
I don't want to get into my own personal views here... I just wanted to point out that it's not something that everyone agrees on, and that there isn't total unanimity on the issue.
Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.
Ok.
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
10-19-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'm not going to get into an argument with you sis, I'm just saying that not all "mainstream" Muslims believe this. You may not have met any, but you'll just have to take my word for it that they exist. Whether or not they're wrong is a different matter, and it's a discussion I don't want to get into.
Aslaamu`Alaaykum Bro

Nobody is getting into arguments, also if you have nothing to say regarding Halal and Haram then you should indeed remain silent, and regarding music being haram or halal, are you going to depend on the minority or majority of people listening to music or are you going to look at the Quraan and Sunna h which has been prescribed for you?


forgive me if i have said a word that has offended you.

‘Whosoever believes in Allaah and the Last Day, then let him speak good or remain silent.’
[Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree]

"O you who believe! Keep your duty to Allah and fear Him, and speak (always) the truth."
(Surah Al Ahzaab:ayah 70)
Reply

Ramadhan
10-20-2010, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
I cannot think that I can be any clearer that what I said in my earlier post "Well we only know that at one point he sang hymns but how exactly is unknown."
But do you think that "swaying his hips, shaking his bootay, dancing his heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, etc and screaming "hallelujah!" when he was praying to and worshipping his god" is in jesus' character?

Originally Posted by Hugo
But tell me what do you think of say Sufi's and whirling dervishes as part of Islamic worship?
Anyone with very basic understanding of islam would definitely know that whirling dervishes is bid'ah (invention in worship) and hence is never part of Islamic worship.
Where did you get info that whirling dervishes is part of islamic worship, anti sialmic sites?
Reply

Ramadhan
10-20-2010, 06:46 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
I assume Islam does the same - for example the Qu'ran has verses that tells you how to decide the end and beginning of days in Ramadan but you don't do that now, you uses a clock so you are disobeying one of Allah's laws?
The qur'an verses that you may have cited do not command "how" to mark the start of fasting period, but tells "when".
Also, in Islam innovation in worldly affairs are allowed as long as they are not contrary to fiqh.
While innovation in worship (ibada) are not allowed as they could lead to shirk, which has been proven by christianity itself by worshipping jesus, mary, holy spirit, saints, cross, music, etc etc.

Originally Posted by Hugo
There is a famous story about the illustrious Rabbi Hillel who died about 30 years before Jesus’ ministry. The story goes that he was asked by someone to teach him the whole of the Torah while he stood on one leg. Hillel replied “love your neighbour as yourself, this is the whole Law; the rest is mere commentary".
I often wonder who exactly is christians following? jesus? saul? hillel?
I have read that Jesus sent to "the lost sheep of israel" and that he "come not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it".


Originally Posted by Hugo
Do you see the point, focusing on the minutiae of the law is like not being able to see the forest for the trees so if you or I say our prayers faithfully but fail to love our neighbour as ourselves then the whole point of the law is lost and its only end is self-righteousness.
I am sorry that you cannot see the forest while still seeing the trees clearly.
And I am sorry that christians cannot BOTH pray faithfully AND love their neighbors as themselves.

Personally, I think it is a cop out.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-20-2010, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Many people are drawn closer to God in worship with music, while others are drawn closer to God in worship without music.
And I have also shown you before that many pagans, tribes, etc are also drawn closer to God in worship with music.

Originally Posted by truth finder
In worship music is not a goal in itself but a good way to get closer to the presence of God.
Sounds like you are dependent on music to get closer to God.

This actually reminds me of my former friends who swore by God that they felt much closer to God when they were ingesting drugs.


Originally Posted by truth finder
In previous posts you seemed to ask me a few times “What makes Christians joyful?” In the biblical time God’s presence was allowed as the Holy Spirit only to a few special people such as Moses, Elijah and Elisha. In the new era of grace initiated by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit can come to anybody whose sinful heart is washed away by the blood of Jesus. This state, namely, all our sins are forgiven by accepting Jesus as God’s forgiveness and as a result the Holy Spirit dwells in our heart, is called salvation. We are joyful because we have confidence to meet God face to face in heaven. We are joyful because God is with us right in our heart as the Holy Spirit. You may not know how much joyful we are as the children of God. Of course we have peace in our heart, but it is too weak to describe our spiritual journey. Joy is the right word to express our genuine emotion in our loving relation with Jesus.
nice fiction, not very creative though.
Reply

truth finder
10-20-2010, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
And I have also shown you before that many pagans, tribes, etc are also drawn closer to God in worship with music.
As I mentioned before, the fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, while those tribes do not.

Sounds like you are dependent on music to get closer to God. This actually reminds me of my former friends who swore by God that they felt much closer to God when they were ingesting drugs.
The fundamental difference is that the joy of worship (combined either with music or without music) brings pleasure to God, while the sinful pleasure of drugs brings grief to God.


nice fiction, not very creative though.
The first word that comes to our mind when it comes to worship is joy. Peace is too weak to describe our joyful heart when we are in the presence of God.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-20-2010, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
s I mentioned before, the fundamental difference is that we worship Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, while those tribes do not.
You mention christian in your religion status. Christians worship jesus.
You are right. those tribes do not worship jesus, a man.

Originally Posted by truth finder
The fundamental difference is that the joy of worship (combined either with music or without music) brings pleasure to God, while the sinful pleasure of drugs brings grief to God.
who is your god exactly? your god is pleasured by music and griefed by drugs? is he a human? sounds like he is one of those ancient greek god actually.

Originally Posted by truth finder
The first word that comes to our mind when it comes to worship is joy. Peace is too weak to describe our joyful heart when we are in the presence of God
to your mind.
why did you suddenly mention "peace"? and who mentioned the word "peace" in this conversation?

I get it that your god derived pleasure from watching and listening to you guys swaying your hips, shaking your collective bootay, dancing your heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, piano, violins. organs, guitars, electronic music etc and screaming "hallelujah!"

No wonder none of you christians take your god seriously.
Reply

truth finder
10-21-2010, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
You mention christian in your religion status. Christians worship jesus.
You are right. those tribes do not worship jesus, a man.



who is your god exactly? your god is pleasured by music and griefed by drugs? is he a human? sounds like he is one of those ancient greek god actually.



to your mind.
why did you suddenly mention "peace"? and who mentioned the word "peace" in this conversation?

I get it that your god derived pleasure from watching and listening to you guys swaying your hips, shaking your collective bootay, dancing your heart out and singing enthusiastically to the sound of cymbals, trumpets, drums, flutes, piano, violins. organs, guitars, electronic music etc and screaming "hallelujah!"

No wonder none of you christians take your god seriously.

I really want to focus on music in worship in this thread, but you kept questioning the divine nature of Jesus. In response to your repeated questions, I sidetrack to answer your questions.

If you read carefully the whole Bible with open mind and ponder over the implication of what Jesus said and more importantly what He did, it is not difficult to see Jesus is both divine and human. I am not saying that Jesus is only God, or He is only man, but Jesus is both God and man. In this post I talk about one of His divine natures briefly. First of all you need to understand as a background that Jesus lived according to all Jewish cultures and customs. You have heard the famous statement of God to Moses “I am who I am” (Exodus 3:14). After this statement by God, Jewish peoples have been strictly forbidden to say “I am …..” Only the almighty God was allowed to say this statement. If somebody had said “I am …..”, he would have been accused of blasphemy and condemned to death. I suppose you might have heard the following statements by Jesus. I am the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6). I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). I am the light of the world (John 8:12). I am the bread of life (John 6:35). I am the gate for the sheep (John 10:7). There are more but I have to stop. Each every statement of these was equivalent to saying, “I am the almighty God” in Jewish cultures and customs. Of course Jesus was well aware of this and knew well what He was saying. He just revealed to people who he really is. Because of this kind of statements He was condemned to death and crucified on the cross by Jewish religious leaders and experts in the laws. "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." (John 10:33) If you have doubt about this Jewish custom, please ask Jewish friends familiar with it. Jesus is who He revealed Himself to be, both God and man.
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جوري
10-21-2010, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I really want to focus on music in worship in this thread, but you kept questioning the divine nature of Jesus. In response to your repeated questions, I sidetrack to answer your questions.

Music has no place in worship.. if you come with a pure heart then you don't need instruments to drown out God calling..
everything in creation will chant and praise God then in its own melodious way.. the wind in the trees, the rustling of the leaves, birds chirping and man reciting his words in a melodious tone.

as for the rest, quoting your bible does little for anyone. You are yet to establish contextual and chronological integrity for that book. I am sure the Hindus can quote Ganesh being the way to truth, or Zarathustra being the way to the truth.. surely you can see the absurdity in that.. one pagan belief is as good as the next..

have a great day!
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Ramadhan
10-21-2010, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I really want to focus on music in worship in this thread, but you kept questioning the divine nature of Jesus.
Excuse me! Please do not insult my intelligence.

where in my post that I question the divine nature of Jesus?

I know 100% that Jesus not divine, so I have no need to ask you about his divinity.

All I was saying is that those pagan tribes experiencing joy of salvation in using music with worship of their god, and true, they do not worship a man like you christians who worship jesus (a man).
Reply

Hugo
10-21-2010, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Music has no place in worship.. if you come with a pure heart then you don't need instruments to drown out God calling.
Is this possible in Islam, a pure heart every time we come to God - though I am not entirely sure what you mean: sinless, no stray thoughts, no unkind thoughts about anyone, honest motives, ...?
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Hugo
10-21-2010, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Excuse me! Please do not insult my intelligence. where in my post that I question the divine nature of Jesus? I know 100% that Jesus not divine, so I have no need to ask you about his divinity.
How do you know this? The evidence of the Gospels says he did miracles and rose from the dead - surely that might give you an incling that he was in some way at least different?
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truth finder
10-21-2010, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
You mention christian in your religion status. Christians worship jesus.
You are right. those tribes do not worship jesus, a man.
If I misunderstood you, I apologize you. But your latest comment clearly indicates that Jesus is not divine, but just a man. That is why I sidetracked to answer your wrong comment to show you that Jesus is both divine and human, namely, both God and man.


To The yale’s lilly

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years. Among 5,300 copies, there are 40 disputed lines of text. This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,300 copies and fragments of the New Testament that, together, assure us that nothing's been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the early church fathers in the second and third centuries. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

I do not know about the manuscript reliability of your scripture. I think there is for the Quran. The Bible is authentic, as your scripture is authentic. The fundamental difference between Hindus and Christians is that they believe Ganesh is the way to the truth, while Christians believe Yahweh (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is the way to the truth. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit).

Reply

جوري
10-21-2010, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Is this possible in Islam, a pure heart every time we come to God - though I am not entirely sure what you mean: sinless, no stray thoughts, no unkind thoughts about anyone, honest motives, ...?
Well of course you don't know what that means!

When I see christians and their music in church I think of Satanists summoning the devil!






Originally Posted by truth finder


To The yale’s lilly

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD. Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years. Among 5,300 copies, there are 40 disputed lines of text. This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,300 copies and fragments of the New Testament that, together, assure us that nothing's been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the early church fathers in the second and third centuries. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

I do not know about the manuscript reliability of your scripture. I think there is for the Quran. The Bible is authentic, as your scripture is authentic. The fundamental difference between Hindus and Christians is that they believe Ganesh is the way to the truth, while Christians believe Yahweh (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is the way to the truth. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit).
please spare me the cuts and pastes.. but if you dig them, sink your teeth into this:

Textual Integrity Of The Bible
Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.
This page is to educate the Muslims about the Bible of the Christians, concerning mainly with its compilation and textual reliability. It is often seen that Christian missionaries dupe less-knowledgeable Muslims about the Bible by saying that the Qur'an confirms the Bible and hence Muslims should believe in the Bible. Muslims should remember that the Qur'an attests Torah, Zabur and Injil as revelations from God given to the Prophet. It does not attest whatever writers of the Old Testament or St. Paul in the New Testament wrote or said.
But what is the textual reliability of the so-called Torah, Zabur and Injil present in the modern Bibles? The aim of this page is to venture into this issue. If one can't establish the 'revealed' books' textual reliability, is there any point calling it as the Word of God?
Lastly, we have made sure that we use the references of Judeo-Christian scholars of repute not the apologetical literature for very obvious reasons.
The Canon Of The Bible
A detailed discussion about the various canons of the Bible drawn at various times by different Churches can be seen here.
The New Testament Manuscripts Was The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?
The Bible and Its 'Inspiration'
Textual Reliability Of The Bible - Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?
Criteria Used In Choosing Among Conflicting Readings In New Testament Witnesses

  1. Introduction
  2. The Criteria
  3. Outline Of Criteria
    1. External Evidence
    2. Internal Evidence

  4. Some Examples

Textual Reliability / Accuracy Of The New Testament
Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), The Patristic Citations Of The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers And The Search For Eleven Missing Verses Of The New Testament
Based on a narrative whose source is alleged to have been the renowned Scottish Judge Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), it is frequently asserted that the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from the citations of the Church Fathers of the first three centuries, with the exception of only eleven verses. Going back to the original documents, something which none of the authors have attempted to study, it is shown that the data in them clearly disproves this claim – repeated in numerous missionary and apologetical publications for a period of more than 165 years.


Modern Approaches To New Testament Textual Criticism

  1. Radical Eclecticism (G. D. Kilpatrick, J. K. Elliott)
  2. Reasoned Eclecticism (B. M. Metzger, K. Aland)
  3. Reasoned Conservatism (H. A. Sturz)
  4. Radical Conservatism (Z. Hodges, A. Farstad)

Critical Text Of The New Testament: Methodology and Implications

  1. Introduction
  2. Formation Of A Critical Text: Methodology and Implications
  3. Conclusion
  4. Appendix: Other Articles Of Interest

The Multivalence Of The Term "Original Text" In New Testament Textual Criticism, E. Jay Epp, Harvard Theological Review, 1999, Volume 92, No. 3. pp. 245-281.

  1. Introduction
  2. The Use of the Term "Original Text" Past and Present and Its Multivalence
  3. The Relation of an Elusive, Multivalent "Original Text" to the Concept of "Canon"
  4. Conclusion

Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

  1. Variant Readings In The Qur'an and In The Bible
    1. The Qur'an, Its Variant Readings and Islamic Scholarship
    2. The New Testament, Its Problems and The Critical Texts

  2. Textual Criticism and The Reaction Of The Church
    1. J Mill
    2. R Bentley
    3. J J Wettstein
    4. B F Westcott and J A Hort

For centuries, they have been saying that Muhammad(P) composed the Qur'ân by borrowing the Judeo-Christian material. The 'logic' of showing the borrowing was to simply show similarity between the Qur'ânic and Biblical narrative and then conclude that Muhammad(P) copied the verses in question from the Judeo-Christian sources.
So we figured that it was about time that we reciprocated the favour and pay the Christian missionaries their due in full. We will use their own methodology to show how good the Bible stands the scrutiny.
Borrowing In The Old Testament
Borrowing In The New Testament
Epimenides Paradox and St. Paul


Is The Bible Inimitable?
Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.
As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'an versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states:
In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.[19]
Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible:
The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....
In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.[20]
That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.


The criticism is as follows:
I hope you see my problem. If God comes to the conclusion that he has to abrogate and make new orders then this is admitting that he made mistakes. It shows that what he gave before was not perfect. It could be improved.

Your scenario accuses God of making mistakes.

But God is all-knowing, he is not surprised by new circumstances and new ideas. It is against the nature and attributes of God to change his mind. And clearly, if God had changed the Qur'an before he revealed it then we would never have known about the change. Because we know the abrogated and abrogating verses [at least some] therefore it is clear that you accuse God not only of changing his mind just for himself, but that he took rather long to find out that it was wrong. After all, the Qur'an is uncreated and was with God for eternity, how come he just found out that some things have to be changed after he revealed it to Muhammad?

To me, this does not make sense. It is derogatory of the holy and supreme God. It attributes mistakes to him and that he didn't know what he was doing in the first place. And then he has to abrogate to clean up the mess of wrong revelation.

That is what I cannot accept.
When one studies the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, it becomes clear that omnipotent and omniscient God did make mistakes and repented. This means that the God did not know his own actions and the outcomes of the actions. Now for some fine examples. Let us first start with Old Testament. In the story of Noah(P), it is mention that:
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground anymore for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more everything living, as I have done. [Genesis 8:21]
And in the story of Moses(P), we read
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. [Exodus 32:14]
Oh no! that is Old Testament, cries the Christian. The New Testament has replaced all that. Yes, in the New Testament, the monotheistic and henotheistic God of Israel, Yahweh, suddenly starts to be interpreted as Trinity. So, the concept of monotheistic and henotheistic God itself got abrogated in the New Testament as the Christians allege! So we have to assume that the monotheistic and henotheistic God of Israel did not know that he was Trinity and made a serious mistake or he simply changed his mind or in the worst case scenario, he cheated the People of Israel.
The problem just does not end here. Let us also see what are the problems of the Christian cry; The New Testament has replaced all that. The following essay is intended to show evidence of the concept of abrogation in the Bible both between the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) and Greek Scriptures (New Testament) as well as internally in the Greek Scriptures themselves.
To begin - what is meant by the term "abrogation"? The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines the word Abrogate as:
ab-ro-gate: v.tr. repeal, annul, abolish (a law or custom).
In the context of the will and law of God (Holy is He above all that is attributed to Him) as expressed in Scripture, it refers to the nullification of an older Law or concept in favour of a newer and more appropriate one.
We might ask whether an omniscient God, if He is the one who sent Torah and Injeel, might employ such a concept as abrogation? Surely an all-knowing God would be able to impart His will in entirety without recourse to change? Doesn't the idea of abrogating, or nullifying, a previous law in light of a better one suggest that the Author is not all-knowing?
What these questions don't take into account, is that whilst God is all-knowing, unchanging (e.g., Malachi 3:6, with lots of problems with the concept of Trinity), His audience, humanity, is not. The very concept that Christianity holds so dear, of the difference between the old covenantal relationship of law, as opposed to the new covenantal relationship of grace relies on the understanding that human beings as individuals and in human societies are in fact subjected to change in condition.
According to Matthew, Jesus(P) said:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19)
And surprising, Jesus(P), the omniscient Yahweh incarnate (allegedly!) suddenly had to change the Laws of Divorce, Justice and Oaths apart from changing his own mind!
Abrogation Of Divorce
The best examples of Jesus(P) abrogating parts of Old Testament law concern a number of statements recorded in the gospel according to Matthew. The most prominent of them would be the Law concerning Divorce.
In the Old Testament we find the following law concerning divorce:
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2)
Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry.
However in the time of Jesus(P), the rules of divorce seem to have taken a U-turn.
"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32)
Here Jesus(P) abrogated the former permission to divorce according to the husband's displeasure and strictly allowed it under one condition - adultery. He even went so far as to legislate that divorcees were not permitted to remarry, clearly abrogating the former permission. But what is the reason given for this abrogation? Had God changed His mind? Is this evidence of God not being omniscient? Or more importantly, is this evidence that in fact God was never the author of these laws? Well Jesus(P) himself explains:
"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9)
Jesus(P) points to the fact that God designs laws that are suitable to the needs and exigencies of the time and audience.
Law Of Absolute Justice
In the Hebrew Scriptures it is written:
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21)
Quite a harsh law of absolute justice that was necessary due to the conditions of Moses'(P) age. But Jesus(P) was inspired by God to reveal a softer code for the believers to practice in individual relationships. By abrogating the harshness of absolute justice, Jesus(P) was inspired to encourage the believers to employ forgiveness and mercy. It is recorded he said:
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42)
It is a different story that many Christians do not practice what Jesus(P) has told them to do.
Law Of Oaths
We read:
If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin. But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty. Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth. (Deutronomy 23:21-23)
That is, it is permissible to make an oath for various reasons, however, the swearer must fulfil the oath he makes. In Jesus' time it became necessary for him to abrogate this permission so that the swearing of oaths became forbidden. In Matthew it is recorded:
"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. Simply let your `Yes' be `Yes,' and your `No,' `No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:33-37)
Jesus(P) Abrogating His Own Commandments

Perhaps the clearest example of God inspiring Jesus(P) to practice abrogation can be seen in the commissioning of his disciples. It is written in the New Testament that initially Jesus(P) forbade his disciples from preaching to non-Jews. He restricted their activities and commanded them to avoid Gentiles. However, due to the change in circumstances and the completion of his earthly mission, Jesus(P) abrogated this earlier law and made it not only permissible but obligatory for his disciples to reach out to a broader base.
A nice example of Jesus(P) asking his disciples to preach the lost sheep of Israel is:
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matthew 10:5-6)
This prohibition is reinforced by Jesus'(P) own practice:
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:22-24)
Even though because of his mercy Jesus(P) healed the sick daughter, he made it clear that his mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. Later on this was abrogated and Jesus(P) commanded his disciples to reach out to all peoples. It is recorded he said:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Matthew 28:18-20)
Conclusions
It is clear that the concept of abrogation: the nullifying of an older commandment or practice in favour of a newer law, is nothing new and it has been practiced by God for aeons. What we know is that the laws governing the mankind (i.e., Shariah) changes according to the needs of the society. But the concept of monotheism (i.e., Tawheed) remains the same. The Creator knows very well that his creation, the humans, need time and discipline to grow and mature, He reveals commandments and practices that help them develop both as individuals and as members of society. All Praise be to the God, Lord of the Worlds.
And Allah knows best!




_______________________




have a good one
Reply

YusufNoor
10-21-2010, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
If I misunderstood you, I apologize you. But your latest comment clearly indicates that Jesus is not divine, but just a man. That is why I sidetracked to answer your wrong comment to show you that Jesus is both divine and human, namely, both God and man.


To The yale’s lilly

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is dramatic, with over 5,300 known copies and fragments in the original Greek, nearly 800 of which were copied before 1000 AD.

actually, the "evidence" for the "authenticity" is pretty sad. you have hearsay upon hearsay. if i were an arbitrator deciding the matter, i might let 7 letters of Paul into evidence. however Paul claims to bring a new religion, so it doesn't help you. there are NO CONTEMPORANEOUS EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS of ANY PART OF Jesus' human life! NOT A ONE!


Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing copies being a remarkably short 60 years.

that is just not true! why try to mislead? you mean FRAGMENTS of manuscripts, NOT manuscripts! the oldest FRAGMENT of the NT is a piece of "John" that is sometimes thought to be from as early as 125AD. this fragment is no bigger than a credit card. while Paul's letters can be approximated, at least those that "Scholars" assume Paul wrote, to the 50's, this fragment is 75 years older than that! it is my understanding, that there NO COMPLETE Manuscripts until the 3rd Century! Jesus lived in the 1st Century, you do the math!

Among 5,300 copies, there are 40 disputed lines of text. This pales in textual comparison with the over 5,300 copies and fragments of the New Testament that, together, assure us that nothing's been lost. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven verses can be reconstructed from the writings of the early church fathers in the second and third centuries. Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons: Julius Caesar's "The Gallic Wars" (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph); Pliny the Younger's "History" (7 manuscripts; 750 years elapsed); Thucydides' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Herodotus' "History" (8 manuscripts; 1,300 years elapsed); Sophocles (193 manuscripts; 1,400 years); Euripides (9 manuscripts; 1,500 years); and Aristotle (49 manuscripts; 1,400 years).

I do not know about the manuscript reliability of your scripture. I think there is for the Quran. The Bible is authentic, as your scripture is authentic.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! EVERY SINGLE S0LITARY "VERSE" IN THE Qur'an WAS WRITTEN DOWN "IN THE PRESENCE OF THE PROPHET ON THE DAY IT WAS REVEALED!" The earliest that the majority of scholars can agree that the "Gospels" were written was 65 to 75AD for "Mark"; 80 to 85AD for "Matthew" and "Luke" and around 95AD for "John." i put the names in quotes because ALL of the Gospels were written anonymously and NO ONE KNOWS who really wrote them! the 2 don't compare in the least bit!

The fundamental difference between Hindus and Christians is that they believe Ganesh is the way to the truth, while Christians believe Yahweh (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) is the way to the truth. We do not worship three gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit).

Jesus claims, in YOUR Bible to "sit at the right hand of the father," does he not? 2 butts equals 2 gods any way you slice it!
now, let us take a look at what you Christians have posted:

If you read carefully the whole Bible with open mind and ponder over the implication of what Jesus said and more importantly what He did, it is not difficult to see Jesus is both divine and human. I am not saying that Jesus is only God, or He is only man, but Jesus is both God and man. In this post I talk about one of His divine natures briefly. First of all you need to understand as a background that Jesus lived according to all Jewish cultures and customs. You have heard the famous statement of God to Moses “I am who I am” (Exodus 3:14). After this statement by God, Jewish peoples have been strictly forbidden to say “I am …..” Only the almighty God was allowed to say this statement. If somebody had said “I am …..”, he would have been accused of blasphemy and condemned to death. I suppose you might have heard the following statements by Jesus. I am the way and the truth and the life (John 14:6). I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). I am the light of the world (John 8:12). I am the bread of life(John 6:35). I am the gate for the sheep (John 10:7). There are more but I have to stop.
where do you get your "best evidence" that Jesus is god? from "John!" this is a document that the MAJORITY of Biblical Scholars date to the min 90's AD. when did the ministry of Jesus end? ovver 60 years earlier! have you ever seen a movie about Jesus? [and YES, that IS a rhetorical question. i assume you have.] in these movies, Jesus is portrayed as a young upstart with maybe the Apostle John being of similar age. According to "Matthew" Jesus had be born before 4BC, that would make him and John around 35 when Jesus' ministry ended. 65 years later John would be 100! and we can safely presume the other Apostles long dead and John at least a little dead. so now that the Apostles are dead, what begins to be taught? that ?Jesus is god! why did they wait so long? eh?

with the veracity of the Qur'an LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF your Bible, we can safely depend on what we are taught!

we worship ONLY the Creator, Provider, Protector and Sustainer of ALL that has been created. we seek the help of [pray to] Him and Him alone! and we do this as taught by our Messenger. we have replaced ALL of the previous uncertain "books" with the Noble Qur'an. THIS Qur'an, we do our share in preserving. THAT does NOT require music so "you can feel good." it requires serving Allah and Allah Alone as directed by Rasulullah! THAT is PURE Guidance!

:sl:
Reply

Hugo
10-21-2010, 11:23 PM
I know this off topic but its just a short note to correct false notions about the Bible, for simplicity I will just speak about the New Testament. There are about 5,400 primary sources for the Gospels themselves as mostly parchments or papyri and many of these these goes back to about 150CE. In addition to this there are about 15,000 other secondary source such as commentaries, letters, hymns etc and using these alone it would be possible to reconstruct the NT. Using the huge volume of evidence it is possible to reconstruct the NT and scholars agree that the Greek text is accurate and perfectly reliable and only about 1/1000 is still in doubt and this involves just three passages: Mark 16:9-20 (an added ending to the Gospel), Luke 22:41-45 (Jesus prayer in the Garden) and John 7:53-8:11 (woman caught in the act of adultery). These three sections represent the only major textual problems in the Gospels and no important teaching hangs on any one of them unless you have some weird beliefs. So we have 20,000 sources and it is probably correct there are 300,000 variant readings but what is often forgotten by those with bias that is we might have say have 500 different copies of a verse from Matthew's Gospel with the same single spelling error and that would count as 500 variants readings.

What some scholars argue about is not the text as such for as I said little of that is in doubt but they do argue about what it all means and who Jesus is. If you want to see this work then look for the authors Bart Ehrman, James Robinson or the so called Jesus Seminar and then make your own mind up but let it be an honest assessment and not one based on excerpts from websites of dubious quality.

There are many thousands of translations in thousands of languages from Arabic to Klingon and someone who becomes a Christian today can almost certainly read the NT in his or her own modern language today also. In addition if I look at my English Bible and a German one I can see the same message in both for the same verses. So any one who says the Bible is corrupted to such an extent that is message is lost is not telling the truth.

One reads here about the apocryphal Gospels such as The Gospel to The Egyptians, the Secret Gospel of Mark or The Shepard of Hermas and so on but one only has to read them and then read the canonical Gospels to know with absolute certainty which is to be trusted. For example, in one. called the Acts of Paul we have the obviously false and fanciful story of Paul baptising a lion who later spared him when he was sent to the Arena by the Roman Emperor.

There is no shortage of books though I think the best coverage is given by Professor Graig Evans in his book (though a little technical) called "Fabricating Jesus", ISBN 9781844 741724.
Reply

FS123
10-21-2010, 11:27 PM
music is amusement, and worship is not amusement.
Reply

جوري
10-21-2010, 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
There are many thousands of translations in thousands of languages from Arabic to Klingon and someone who becomes a Christian today can almost certainly read the NT in his or her own modern language today also. In addition if I look at my English Bible and a German one I can see the same message in both for the same verses. So any one who says the Bible is corrupted to such an extent that is message is lost is not telling the truth.
The message of the bible whether in Arabic or Klingon is worshiping a man for salvation and much ado about nothing else.. surely it wouldn't matter what you translate that sentence to, as it pretty much spells out a non-religion..

an even better book I recommend is


all the best
Reply

Hugo
10-21-2010, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
The message of the bible whether in Arabic or Klingon is worshiping a man for salvation and much ado about nothing else.. surely it wouldn't matter what you translate that sentence to, as it pretty much spells out a non-religion.. an even better book I recommend is
all the best
Can you confirm that you have also read Professor Evans' book, else how could you know?

But fine read Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus, ISBN 9780060 85910 but if it's the only one you read then you are not being fair even to yourself. In any case Professor Evans give far more information with glossaries, lists of manuscripts, list of all ancient extra canonical sources and much besides and even if you don't agree with him you will at least know what the discussion is all about and you will not get that from Ehrman (incidentally Evans and Ehrman have worked together in translation projects)
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Can you confirm that you have also read Professor Evans' book,

I haven't and to do so would in fact be 'unfair' since most of the information is readily available on the web-- you can have a thousand page manuscript on utter nonsense, not only is it a pure waste of time, but one will have gained nothing except perhaps putting money in a dullard's person's pocket book-- I wouldn't anymore spend time reading a book on the Rehbein's method to treat Hirschsprung's dz. When more clear, precise methods causing lesser morbidity and mortality and higher success rate exist.

Stop promoting your paganistic religion, I'd much rather be an atheist than waste time, or money reading nonsense about the manuscripts that conjecture the sayings of a man now turned god!

all the best
Reply

Hugo
10-22-2010, 12:13 AM
To get back on track.

Legislation in Islâm is based upon the Qur’ân and the Sunnah. All authority to declare things permissible or impermissible must derive from these two sources, directly or indirectly. For as long as the Qur’ân or the Sunnah provide guidance on a particular issue there is no need, or rather, it would be unwarranted, to opt for other sources of legislation. The actions of any particular person, no matter how erudite or pious he may be, will have no bearing on the ruling of the Sharî‘ah, if it does not derive from the Qur’ân and the Sunnah, or is in contradiction with either of these two.

This is where legislation on Music comes from. Although one can see that reason for such a mechanism for deciding it is or may be considered inadequate for there are a million and one things in the modern world that could not possibly have been mentioned in the Qu'ran or Sunnah so as we must "..opt for other sources of legislation.."

The range and utility of Music, instruments and singling today cannot possibly have been known or even anticipated back in the 7-9th centuries so is it stretching way to far such rulings as there are on Music. Indeed in this thread there has been very little discussion of the original, sources of music being forbidden and mostly it has been attempts to justify the ruling and to me that is equivalent to "..opting for other sources.." though without much connecting logic and mostly it has been opinion.

So in the Qu'ran there are thought to be 3 relevant references though none mention Music and I assume there are perfectly good Arabic words to do that. In the hadith we seem to have about 6 references though these are not direct - so its opinion of the exegete at the time but is that opinion still relevant in that the institutions, kind of music and instruments are very different now?
Reply

Hugo
10-22-2010, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I haven't and to do so would in fact be 'unfair' since most of the information is readily available on the web-- you can have a thousand page manuscript on utter nonsense, not only is it a pure waste of time, but one will have gained nothing except perhaps putting money in a dullard's person's pocket book-- I wouldn't anymore spend time reading a book on the Rehbein's method to treat Hirschsprung's dz. When more clear, precise methods causing lesser morbidity and mortality and higher success rate exist.
You might be right and if you really do want a better success rate please don't tell us one book is better that anther when you have not even read it - that is deliberate misinformation and unworthy of this board.
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
You might be right and if you really do want a better success rate please don't tell us one book is better that anther when you have not even read it - that is deliberate misinformation and unworthy of this board.

How do you personally measure a 'higher success rate'?
If you have read the book and would like to share its 'millions upon millions of truthful manuscripts' then do so here and let's all collectively examine it, especially those on board former Christians.
If you have something of substance dear Hugo do share, quit referencing us to books where you yourself haven't glanced passed the title and perhaps the small parts of interests [snip].

all the best
Reply

Zafran
10-22-2010, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
To get back on track.

Legislation in Islâm is based upon the Qur’ân and the Sunnah. All authority to declare things permissible or impermissible must derive from these two sources, directly or indirectly. For as long as the Qur’ân or the Sunnah provide guidance on a particular issue there is no need, or rather, it would be unwarranted, to opt for other sources of legislation. The actions of any particular person, no matter how erudite or pious he may be, will have no bearing on the ruling of the Sharî‘ah, if it does not derive from the Qur’ân and the Sunnah, or is in contradiction with either of these two.

This is where legislation on Music comes from. Although one can see that reason for such a mechanism for deciding it is or may be considered inadequate for there are a million and one things in the modern world that could not possibly have been mentioned in the Qu'ran or Sunnah so as we must "..opt for other sources of legislation.."

The range and utility of Music, instruments and singling today cannot possibly have been known or even anticipated back in the 7-9th centuries so is it stretching way to far such rulings as there are on Music. Indeed in this thread there has been very little discussion of the original, sources of music being forbidden and mostly it has been attempts to justify the ruling and to me that is equivalent to "..opting for other sources.." though without much connecting logic and mostly it has been opinion.

So in the Qu'ran there are thought to be 3 relevant references though none mention Music and I assume there are perfectly good Arabic words to do that. In the hadith we seem to have about 6 references though these are not direct - so its opinion of the exegete at the time but is that opinion still relevant in that the institutions, kind of music and instruments are very different now?
Quran sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas are authorities used in Islam - as nobody on this forum is a qualiifed Jurist I wouldnt expect people to actaully make rulings on it. They are stating there beliefs just like non muslims are.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-22-2010, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Hugo
How do you know this?
a human is not god.
period.
I don't worship a human who needed to be born out of a woman, who needed to take crap, who needed his own god and cried and prayed to be saved by his own god.
If you want to worship that human, it is up to you.
You will have a lot to answer.

Originally Posted by Hugo
The evidence of the Gospels says he did miracles and rose from the dead - surely that might give you an incling that he was in some way at least different
yes, jesus did miracles, his miracles were told by Allah in the Qur'an.
miracles do not make someone divine/god.
if that is your yardstick in determining whether someone is god, then you really have devalued god, because throughout history there have been many priophets and pious people given miracles by god. Adam a.s. didi not have father and mother, jesus had a mother. By christian logic, Adam is a greater god than jesus?
Really, how low do christians want to drag down god?
"hey, that person can perform miracles, let's worship him!"
LOL.
also, Jesus did not die. Allah saved him from the capture and torture of the romans and the betrayal by his own disciple, Allah raised him to heaven, and he will return to break crosses and kill swines and kill the antichrist. I actually am hoping I could see the event, it would be fun to see what the likes of you will react. And jesus will get married and die a natural and peaceful death, just like in his prayer to Allah "Peace is the day I was born and the day I die"
being tortured and left to die on a cross is certainly not a peaceful death.
even Abraham a.s. was saved by Allah from the fire and Allah made the fire cool for him.
All prophets are protected by Allah from the wickedness of their own people.

Originally Posted by Hugo
surely that might give you an incling that he was in some way at least different?
Yes, jesus was not merely a human.
he was a prophet and messenger sent by Allah to lead the lost sheep of Israel to return to the path of Noah, Abraham, and Moses, the path of tawheed.
Reply

Ramadhan
10-22-2010, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
But your latest comment clearly indicates that Jesus is not divine, but just a man. That is why I sidetracked to answer your wrong comment to show you that Jesus is both divine and human, namely, both God and man.
You can bring your "jesus is half man half god" argument to the comparative religion.
Reply

truth finder
10-22-2010, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
now, let us take a look at what you Christians have posted:
where do you get your "best evidence" that Jesus is god? from "John!" this is a document that the MAJORITY of Biblical Scholars date to the min 90's AD. when did the ministry of Jesus end? ovver 60 years earlier! have you ever seen a movie about Jesus? [and YES, that IS a rhetorical question. i assume you have.] in these movies, Jesus is portrayed as a young upstart with maybe the Apostle John being of similar age. According to "Matthew" Jesus had be born before 4BC, that would make him and John around 35 when Jesus' ministry ended. 65 years later John would be 100! and we can safely presume the other Apostles long dead and John at least a little dead. so now that the Apostles are dead, what begins to be taught? that ?Jesus is god! why did they wait so long? eh?
:sl:
Thanks for your reply. I am very sorry for late reply because I was quite busy with my project

The evidence for the divine nature of Jesus was indirect, yet quite convincing. Of course Jesus did not say in the Bible, “I am God” or “Worship me”. But when we ponder deeply the implication of what he said and more importantly what he did, we are faced with only two choices, namely, he was either a crazy man with a narcissistic mental disorder or someone divine. Due to this indirect evidence it might have taken time to realize his true identity among early believers. Actually this can prove that the Bible was not intentionally altered by early Christians. If they had wanted to change it to justify their new theology, they could have inserted in various places Jesus statements such as “I am God” or “Worship me” in order to make their case. But they did not and could not do it, in spite of the potential danger that in the future time some people like you would accuse the divinity of Jesus for the fabrication by early Christians. We do not worship three gods. We worship only one God that was revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). Do you not agree that the almighty God could reveal himself or his presence to human beings in a hundred different ways if he wants? Do you limit God’s ability and power?
Reply

Dagless
10-22-2010, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The evidence for the divine nature of Jesus was indirect, yet quite convincing. Of course Jesus did not say in the Bible, “I am God” or “Worship me”. But when we ponder deeply the implication of what he said and more importantly what he did
Implications are usually for those things which are not too important either way. Why would God only imply such a fundamental thing as worship?

Originally Posted by truth finder
we are faced with only two choices, namely, he was either a crazy man with a narcissistic mental disorder or someone divine.
There is a third option - he was a prophet.

Originally Posted by truth finder
We do not worship three gods. We worship only one God that was revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit).
If this is the case then why would one worship another? If they are the same then technically it would be self worship? They also seem to be independent, ie. capable of differing opinions. This would indicate they are not one perfect entity.

Originally Posted by truth finder
Do you limit God’s ability and power?
You're the one limiting it :p
Reply

YusufNoor
10-22-2010, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
I know this off topic but its just a short note to correct false notions about the Bible, for simplicity I will just speak about the New Testament. There are about 5,400 primary sources for the Gospels themselves as mostly parchments or papyri and many of these these goes back to about 150CE.

whether intentional or not, this is VERY misleading. there are NO complete NT books that have an undisputed date of 150AD. NONE, ZERO. refutation below

In addition to this there are about 15,000 other secondary source such as commentaries, letters, hymns etc and using these alone it would be possible to reconstruct the NT. Using the huge volume of evidence it is possible to reconstruct the NT and scholars agree that the Greek text is accurate and perfectly reliable and only about 1/1000 is still in doubt and this involves just three passages: Mark 16:9-20 (an added ending to the Gospel), Luke 22:41-45 (Jesus prayer in the Garden) and John 7:53-8:11 (woman caught in the act of adultery). These three sections represent the only major textual problems in the Gospels and no important teaching hangs on any one of them unless you have some weird beliefs. So we have 20,000 sources and it is probably correct there are 300,000 variant readings but what is often forgotten by those with bias that is we might have say have 500 different copies of a verse from Matthew's Gospel with the same single spelling error and that would count as 500 variants readings.

What some scholars argue about is not the text as such for as I said little of that is in doubt but they do argue about what it all means and who Jesus is. If you want to see this work then look for the authors Bart Ehrman, James Robinson or the so called Jesus Seminar and then make your own mind up but let it be an honest assessment and not one based on excerpts from websites of dubious quality.

we can use Ehrman's suggested dates, but i prefer my own conclusions. OH THAT'S RIGHT, I AM USING EHRMAN'S dates!

There are many thousands of translations in thousands of languages from Arabic to Klingon and someone who becomes a Christian today can almost certainly read the NT in his or her own modern language today also. In addition if I look at my English Bible and a German one I can see the same message in both for the same verses. So any one who says the Bible is corrupted to such an extent that is message is lost is not telling the truth.

IF you date the NT to the 4th Century, then THAT is a document that we can STILL see changes and errors. NONE of that is PROOF to what late 1st Century documents contained.

One reads here about the apocryphal Gospels such as The Gospel to The Egyptians, the Secret Gospel of Mark or The Shepard of Hermas and so on but one only has to read them and then read the canonical Gospels to know with absolute certainty which is to be trusted. For example, in one. called the Acts of Paul we have the obviously false and fanciful story of Paul baptising a lion who later spared him when he was sent to the Arena by the Roman Emperor.

just because one lie is more obvious than another is NOT proof that the smaller lie isn't a lie!

There is no shortage of books though I think the best coverage is given by Professor Graig Evans in his book (though a little technical) called "Fabricating Jesus", ISBN 9781844 741724.

i wouldn't use Evans. evangelists and fundies don't agree with mainline Scholarship
uncovering the truth:

For such an ancient period as that between A.D. 100 and 300 it is of course much more difficult to be confident about the date of a manuscript. There is infinitely less comparative material. Nevertheless we are now in a fairly comfortable position to date papyrus manuscripts according to their handwriting. We do not have to rely on manuscripts of the New Testament only. We have hundreds of papyrus manuscripts of Greek pagan literary texts from this period and again hundreds of carefully written papyrus documents that show the same types of handwriting. These documents are very important for paleographers because they are often exactly dated. As a rule New Testament manuscripts on papyrus are not. A careful comparison of the papyrus documents and manuscripts of the second and third centuries has established beyond doubt that about forty Greek papyrus manuscripts of the New Testament date from this very period. Unfortunately only six of them are extensively preserved.
http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papy...nuscripts.html

so how many out of 4,500 "date" from "THE 2nd & 3rd Centuries?" eh? FORTY, which of course is practically ALL of...oh wait, let me do the math...0.00888888889! so less than 1% from that time fame and how many from 150AD? TWO! see the chart further down the page. there may be fragments, but reliable sources? ONLY in the mind of fundies and evangelicals!

this is actually discussed here, in a debate between Ehrman and Evans:

http://www.bartdehrman.com/flv_bible...lemisquote.htm

Ehrman has other work as well:

History of the Bible: The Making of the New Testament Canon

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c....aspx?cid=6299

and yes, have the dvd version

New Testament

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c...l.aspx?cid=656

have the dvd as well

From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c....aspx?cid=6577

After the New Testament: The Writings of the Apostolic Fathers

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c....aspx?cid=6537

Lost Christianities: Christian Scriptures and the Battles over Authentication

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c....aspx?cid=6593

have it on mp3

Historical Jesus

http://www.teach12.com/tgc/courses/c...l.aspx?cid=643

mp3 as well

not to mention some books:

Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don't Know About Them) [Paperback]

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrup...7761900&sr=1-1

Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christian...7761900&sr=1-4

Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scripture...7761900&sr=1-5

Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene: The Followers of Jesus in History and Legend

http://www.amazon.com/Peter-Paul-Mar...761900&sr=1-10

Truth and Fiction in The Da Vinci Code: A Historian Reveals What We Really Know about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and Constantine

http://www.amazon.com/Truth-Fiction-...761900&sr=1-14

the 1 the sister posted plus a few other text books although i use the text books mostly for reference ;D

music was acceptable for the followers of other Prophets because THOSE followers were NOT directed to preserve their Message. we were.

chow
Reply

truth finder
10-22-2010, 04:01 PM
Hi YusufNoor

Your original questions are in red and my answers follow in black.

actually, the "evidence" for the "authenticity" is pretty sad. you have hearsay upon hearsay. if i were an arbitrator deciding the matter, i might let 7 letters of Paul into evidence. however Paul claims to bring a new religion, so it doesn't help you. there are NO CONTEMPORANEOUS EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS of ANY PART OF Jesus' human life! NOT A ONE!

At least Matthew and John were direct eye witnesses of Jesus’ human life on earth. In contrast to your accusation Paul was a great man of God. Before he met Jesus personally, he was leading persecution of Christians, imprisoning and killing them with the wrong perception that his cruel act purified the society from evil and thus honored God. When he met Jesus personally on the way to Damascus to bring more harm to believers, his religious zeal was turned into his love for God and other human beings. Because first he hated and persecuted Christians, and later was transformed to live for them, he has been regarded highly among Christians. He was not a blind believer. Paul contributed greatly to turning the ritualistic religion at that time into the faith based relationship with God. Before Adam and Eve committed sin against God and thus were forced to leave the Garden of Eden, there was no religion or ritual, but only a loving relationship with God. While people were bogged down and burdened with religious rituals and laws, Paul recognized the importance of returning to the original relationship with God through the sacrificial death of Jesus for our sins. Because of the contribution of Paul and other early believers, we now enjoy the original loving relationship with God through Jesus, instead of struggling hard to perform religious duties and rituals to take away God’s anger and punishment against us. I admire Paul greatly.


that is just not true! why try to mislead? you mean FRAGMENTS of manuscripts, NOT manuscripts! the oldest FRAGMENT of the NT is a piece of "John" that is sometimes thought to be from as early as 125AD. this fragment is no bigger than a credit card. while Paul's letters can be approximated, at least those that "Scholars" assume Paul wrote, to the 50's, this fragment is 75 years older than that! it is my understanding, that there NO COMPLETE Manuscripts until the 3rd Century! Jesus lived in the 1st Century, you do the math!

Great prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel had only fragments of the Old Testament, when they prophesized the words of God to the people of Israel. Although they did not have the complete manuscript of the Bible, the Holy Spirit dwelling in their heart helped and guided them. The same was true with early believers in Christ. When the Holy Spirit living in their heart guided them, having only fragments of the Bible was not a big issue in their relationship with God. In the Old Testament time the Holy Spirit was given to a few special people such as Moses, Elijah and Isaiah. In the new era of grace initiated by Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit can come to anybody whose sinful heart is washed away by the blood of Jesus.


ABSOLUTELY NOT! EVERY SINGLE S0LITARY "VERSE" IN THE Qur'an WAS WRITTEN DOWN "IN THE PRESENCE OF THE PROPHET ON THE DAY IT WAS REVEALED!" The earliest that the majority of scholars can agree that the "Gospels" were written was 65 to 75AD for "Mark"; 80 to 85AD for "Matthew" and "Luke" and around 95AD for "John." i put the names in quotes because ALL of the Gospels were written anonymously and NO ONE KNOWS who really wrote them! the 2 don't compare in the least bit!

You do not want to accept the authorship of the Gospels, although there is strong evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were indeed the authors of them. Even if the authorship is not clear, we are more interested in the truths or facts of the stories of the Gospels than the authorship. The truths of the contents in them were shown by history and other literatures. The authorship of Torah is also not completely settled. But I have no problem accepting Torah as the words of God whether it was written by Moses or by someone for whom we do not know the name.


Jesus claims, in YOUR Bible to "sit at the right hand of the father," does he not? 2 butts equals 2 gods any way you slice it!

You seem to have said, “1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Holy Spirit) = 3 Gods. Therefore Christians worship three Gods.” But it comes from your confusion about deity and non-deity. You are applying non-deity mathematics to deity. We cannot compare deity with non-deity. Deity is eternal, while non-deity is mortal. Deity is perfect, while non-deity is imperfect. Deity is pure, while non-deity is impure. The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Non-deity is like finite, while deity is like infinity. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. I hope you had a math class before.
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
When he met Jesus personally on the way to Damascus to bring more harm to believers, his religious zeal was turned into his love for God

Did he meet Jesus personally, or just found the most clever way to do the most damage? That is certainly something for discerning minds!

all the best
Reply

YusufNoor
10-22-2010, 04:29 PM
At least Matthew and John were direct eye witnesses of Jesus’ human life on earth. In contrast to your accusation Paul was a great man of God. Before he met Jesus personally, he was leading persecution of Christians, imprisoning and killing them with the wrong perception that his cruel act purified the society from evil and thus honored God. When he met Jesus personally on the way to Damascus to bring more harm to believers, his religious zeal was turned into his love for God and other human beings. Because first he hated and persecuted Christians, and later was transformed to live for them, he has been regarded highly among Christians. He was not a blind believer. Paul contributed greatly to turning the ritualistic religion at that time into the faith based relationship with God. Before Adam and Eve committed sin against God and thus were forced to leave the Garden of Eden, there was no religion or ritual, but only a loving relationship with God. While people were bogged down and burdened with religious rituals and laws, Paul recognized the importance of returning to the original relationship with God through the sacrificial death of Jesus for our sins. Because of the contribution of Paul and other early believers, we now enjoy the original loving relationship with God through Jesus, instead of struggling hard to perform religious duties and rituals to take away God’s anger and punishment against us. I admire Paul greatly.
the gospels were written ANONYMOUSLY! who Matthew and John were is Irrelevant! you have no proof that they wrote the gospels that were later attributed to them! NONE!

and in Paul's writings, he CLEARLY claims to be teaching a different Gospels that that of the Apostles!

Great prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah and Daniel had only fragments of the Old Testament, when they prophesized the words of God to the people of Israel.
the Jewish Tanakh is irrelevant when discussing the NT!

You do not want to accept the authorship of the Gospels, although there is strong evidence that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were indeed the authors of them.
actually, there is little to no evidence! you are blinded to the matter because you are a Christian

Even if the authorship is not clear, we are more interested in the truths or facts of the stories of the Gospels than the authorship
actually, the truth of the matter is that you have a belief system and you work backwords to try to "prove" that belief.

The truths of the contents in them were shown by history and other literatures.
millions of Americans believe George Washington chopped down a cherry tree. you are confusing your mythology with truth because you WANT to believe it

The authorship of Torah is also not completely settled. But I have no problem accepting Torah as the words of God whether it was written by Moses or by someone for whom we do not know the name.
you are entitled to believe whatever you would like to believe, that doesn't make one single iota of it the truth! it is just what you believe.


you wrote:
You seem to have said, “1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Holy Spirit) = 3 Gods
and then:

I hope you had a math class before.
:giggling:

you also claim:

deity is like infinity
and THEN say:

There is no such thing as 3 infinities.
to which i would respond:

EXACTLY!:alright:
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 04:31 PM
This seems so effortless for you akhi, I am loving every moment..
Jazaka Allah khyran..

:w:
Reply

aadil77
10-22-2010, 04:37 PM


this is what happens when you mix music (made using instruments) with worship...

... you get possessed by Satan
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 04:39 PM
out of the videos I have posted here (with regards to music and worship) I have to say that one cracks me up the most.. the fellow could use the workout though albeit once a week..
:haha:

:w:
Reply

aadil77
10-22-2010, 04:46 PM
^ another one

this time 'Holy Ghost' vs MC! :D

Reply

truth finder
10-22-2010, 04:46 PM
To The yale’s lilly

With your statement you are claiming that Moses, Aaron and King David were Satanists. That is too a bold statement for God’s people who God regarded highly.

When Pharaoh's horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. (Exodus 15:19-20)


David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
Reply

جوري
10-22-2010, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
To The yale’s lilly

With your statement you are claiming that Moses, Aaron and King David were Satanists. That is too a bold statement for God’s people who God regarded highly.

When Pharaoh's horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. (Exodus 15:19-20)


David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
I say what your bible ascribes to them certainly makes them satanic indeed.. there is a difference between chanting Psalms and what has been presented above.. furthermore, your bible has already made them into far worse than mere satanists those who sleep with their daughters, those who take concubines on their death bed, how can anything you quote me be trusted or be of relevance? You only have yourself to blame for you are the ones who blaspheme.

all the best
Reply

truth finder
10-22-2010, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

I say what your bible ascribes to them certainly makes them satanic indeed.. there is a difference between chanting Psalms and what has been presented above.. furthermore, your bible has already made them into far worse than mere satanists those who sleep with their daughters, those who take concubines on their death bed, how can anything you quote me be trusted or be of relevance? You only have yourself to blame for you are the ones who blaspheme.

all the best
All human beings are sinful and everybody commits sin. There is no exception. Otherwise they would be God. Those great prophets such as Moses, Aaron and King David also made mistakes as human beings. Is it “halal” in Islam to insult those great prophets of God?

Reply

YusufNoor
10-22-2010, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
To The yale’s lilly

With your statement you are claiming that Moses, Aaron and King David were Satanists. That is too a bold statement for God’s people who God regarded highly.

When Pharaoh's horses, chariots and horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought the waters of the sea back over them, but the Israelites walked through the sea on dry ground. Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. (Exodus 15:19-20)


David told the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brothers as singers to sing joyful songs, accompanied by musical instruments: lyres, harps and cymbals (1 Chronicle 15:16)
you want to build upon the past?

according to the Torah, Abraham married his sister. are Christians allowed to marry their sister today?

according to the Torah, Jacob married 2 sisters are Christians allowed to marry 2 sisters today? can they have more than 1 wife?

According to I Kings, King Solomon came to have seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines! are Christians allowed to have 700 wives today? along with 300 concubines?

IF you answer no, then you MUST agree that what is or is not allowable can change!

capiche?
Reply

truth finder
10-23-2010, 04:04 AM
You seem to suggest that those ugly stories about great prophets in the Bible were intentionally inserted by Jews and Christians. I do not agree with that. Although Jews and Christians have very different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve God’s words. We Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings including Christians.
Reply

Zafran
10-23-2010, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to suggest that those ugly stories about great prophets in the Bible were intentionally inserted by Jews and Christians. I do not agree with that. Although Jews and Christians have very different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve God’s words. We Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings including Christians.
Thats the problem they didnt do a great Job - the so called 5 books of moses pbuh in the OT talking about Moses grave are just a few examples where lets face it somebody tried to remake them and didnt do a good job of it. You can tell by a mile. We dont just say the OT and the NT havent been preserved well - we can give examples of them.
Reply

Hugo
10-23-2010, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
the gospels were written ANONYMOUSLY! who Matthew and John were is Irrelevant! you have no proof that they wrote the gospels that were later attributed to them! NONE!
What difference does it make - the only question of value is if they are the truth about God? One supposed that even you if you found a cure for cancer would hardly throw it away because you did not know who the author was. In any case can you show that God is the author of the Qu'ran, can you get a look so to speak at his copy in heaven to check it out?
and in Paul's writings, he CLEARLY claims to be teaching a different Gospels that that of the Apostles!
Where exactly is this clarity to be found and anyone who reads the New Testament will find quotations from the Hebrew Bible everywhere so it is very very hard to see how it is 'irrelevant' and even you must realise that the Bible Jesus and Paul had was the Hebrew Bible. As posted elsewhere there are some 20,000 manuscripts so what evidence do you want? What manuscript evidence is there for the Qu'ran from the time of the prophet given that the earliest known papyrus of any Arabic writing is 632CE? When it comes to working backwards it is Muslims who do that and if you look you will find endless websites with Islamic 'proofs' of one sort or another but Christians rely on a heart conviction not spurious proofs - so can it be possible that "you are confusing your mythology with truth because you WANT to believe it" or are you some how inoculated against errors?
Reply

Hugo
10-23-2010, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
out of the videos I have posted here (with regards to music and worship) I have to say that one cracks me up the most.. the fellow could use the workout though albeit once a week..
Can you post a video of say whirling dervishes or sufi's in worship please? You can cherry pick as is your usual mode of working
Reply

Hugo
10-23-2010, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Quran sunnah, Ijma, Qiyas are authorities used in Islam - as nobody on this forum is a qualiifed Jurist I wouldnt expect people to actaully make rulings on it. They are stating there beliefs just like non muslims are.
Well technically Ijma and Qiyas are not authorities as such but ways or methods of deriving a ruling when there is nothing in the Qu'ran or Sunnah. I appreciate you point that we are more often than not talking about opinions here but are you saying that one can believe that Music is fine even when there is a ruling?

There are perhaps 4 refs that are relevant in the Qu'ran the most well-known being Q31:6 - "There are those amongst men who purchase vain speech without knowledge, to mislead from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule on (the Path). For them there is a humiliating chastisement.

The context here is about reciting the Qu'ran, however, the words "vain speech" or in other translations we read "frivolous talk" and that clearly links with reciting the Qu'ran. However, many authorities opine it is also a reference to singing (but not music) but if the words sung are of a religiously beneficial nature, the censure is lifted, since it cannot then be classified as "vain speech". (extracted from an answer given by Maulana Taha Karaan al-Shafi, Dar al-‘Ulum Al-Arabiyya al Islamiyyah, South Africa)

So at least singing if its in worship is not to be condemned. The other issue here is that import of the verses is that when anything is vain it is to be discouraged - so one could recite the Qu'ran in a way that is not respectful for example, so even if the most holy can be defiled it is clear that the verse is talking about an attitude of heart not the mode of expression per se. Finally, if God is the author of these words it seems inconceivable to me that he would say "vain speech" when he meant singing.
Reply

GreyKode
10-23-2010, 05:36 PM
You seem to suggest that those ugly stories about great prophets in the Bible were intentionally inserted by Jews and Christians. I do not agree with that. Although Jews and Christians have very different perspectives, we Christians appreciate greatly the great effort of Jewish people to preserve God’s words. We Christians do not claim that the Old Testament was corrupted, in order to justify our belief against Judaism. We do not accuse Jews of the corruption of the Old Testament in order to start a new religion. Jewish people did their best to preserve the Bible, which is greatly appreciated by all human beings including Christians.
Oh the OT that was destroyed several times when the jews were taken into slavery and finally claimed to written all over again by ezra.
Reply

GreyKode
10-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Ok, so now youre an expert claiming that ijma'a qiyas are not authorities, I really have no idea why argue about the authorities in Islam, why don't you tell us what are the authorities in christianity?

Returning to the point of music, although it reamins a grey area to me. Beyond ijmaa and qiyas there are several ahadith that clearly define a ruling regarding music.
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
10-23-2010, 06:42 PM
Reply to the OP:

Because our leader - Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) was able to worship..and get all the help from ALLAH without the requirement of a catalyst = Music.



I feel ...the more your worship is calm/steady/simple.... it will increase ur concentration in worship...

But ...when u add Music or dance.....high possibility that it would - distract the worship...of yours as well as who is standing near by (thats when u dance)
Reply

جوري
10-23-2010, 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Hugo
Can you post a video of say whirling dervishes or sufi's in worship please? You can cherry pick as is your usual mode of working
Cherry pick what you twit? You desiring dervishes to be considered as Muslim doesn't make it so, anymore than us desiring Unitarians to be christians makes them so..

you need to pursue a solid education in the topics you wish to gauge before you are allowed to post!

all the best
Reply

Tilmeez
10-23-2010, 07:41 PM
I strongly believe that all the participants of this thread are tired now and they are waiting for us to take necessary action.

Before I close this thread just a few things:

-So many a time we have mentioned that none of us, including staff members, is authority on Islam.
-The purpose of this forum is to form an online healthy Islamic society that may help new comers/interested Nonmuslims to learn BASICS of Islam.
-Our Nonmuslim members are, we think, beauty of this community as long as they are trying to learn and abide by the rules.
-As this is an Islamic Forum and therefore it is governed by the Islamic Rules and we expect ALL members to respect the rules.
-Islam Teaches us ALL the Prophets are innocent and pure from ANY sin a human can commit.
-We don't discourage debates as long as they are for learning purpose.

And with this

:threadclo
Reply

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