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MrKhan89
10-14-2010, 10:55 PM
I don't understand why any Muslim would say this.
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S.Belle
10-14-2010, 11:12 PM
I was wondering the same
but what I really dont understand is why people broke into different sects...cant we all just be muslim and get alone..

maybe this will answer your question the explaination is terribly long though
http://www.muftisays.com/qa/question...s-kafirs,.html
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sabr*
10-15-2010, 01:05 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

The part of Islamic history that is always avoided. Tribalism at its best. The assassinations, etc. A horrible time in Islamic history.

Those who follow the Sunna and those who follow the Ahl al-Bayt (People of the House) have factions within that promote negative and unflattering history and have differing views of who should have succeeded the Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah (SAWS) after his death.


THE SCHISM


There are differing interpretations over the scope and importance of Ahl al-Bayt.

In those who observe the Sunna view the household of Nabi Muhammad (SAWS) includes his wives, his daughter, Fatimah, her three children, Hassan, Husayn, and Zaynab, as well as his cousin and son-in-law, Ali. Other interpretations include Muhammad's blood relatives, such as the Banu Hashim or the Banu Muttalib.

Many who observe the Sunna believe every Muslim has the obligation to love the Ahl al-Bayt.

In Twelver and Ismaili (Shia), view that the Ahl al-Bayt are central to Islam and they believe are the true successors of Nabi Muhammad (SAWS). The Shi'a definition of the phrase includes Muhammad, Fatimah, Ali, Hasan, and Husayn (known collectively as the Ahl al-Kisa (people of the mantle) and the Imams, The Twelve Imams are considered descendants of Fatimah or families of the Ulama (Islamic clergy).

Most, but not all Shi'a believe that these Imams to be the divinely chosen leaders of the Muslim Community.

This is based on the hadith, "People of the Cloak", a hadith which many who observe the Sunna acknowledge in Sahih Muslim.

Those who observe the Sunna acknowledge only Allah can be worshipped and acknowledged as divine.

It really frustrates me that threads are created to highlight division or controversy.

It doesn't require a PhD to research the differences and why some views are considered heretical by some. Just a suggestion, do your research before creating these threads.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 69:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established till two (huge) groups fight against each other, their claim being one and the same."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Number 70:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

When the Verse:--'Those who believe and did not confuse their belief with wrong (worshipping others besides Allah).' (6.82) was revealed, it was hard on the companions of the Prophet and they said, "Who among us has not wronged (oppressed) himself?" Allah's Apostle said, "The meaning of the Verse is not as you think, but it is as Luqman said to his son, 'O my son! Join not in worship others with Allah, Verily! Joining others in worship with Allah is a great wrong indeed.'" (31.13)

Sahih Bukhari Book 039, Number 6752:

Jabir reported: I heard Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily, the Satan has lost all hopes that the worshippers would ever worship (him) in the peninsula of Arabia, but he (is hopeful) that he would sow the seed of dissension amongst them.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 805:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Day of (Judgment) will not be established till there is a war between two groups whose claims (or religion) will be the same."

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 823:

Narrated Abu Bakra:

Once the Prophet brought out Al-Hasan and took him up the pulpit along with him and said, "This son of mine is a Saiyid (i.e. chief) and I hope that Allah will help him bring about reconciliation between two Muslim groups."

(Reference: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/c...i/056.sbt.html)
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YusufNoor
10-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by MrKhan89
I don't understand why any Muslim would say this.
:sl:

be VERY VERY VERY Careful in calling someone who claims to be A Muslim a kaffir. in fact, unless you have concrete evidence, doing so makes YOU a kaffir. you might even go further and let the Ulema make those statements as they are better qualified to make those judgments.

we have a belief system in Islam, when you become a Muslim, your Islam is based on the 5 Pillars of Islam. Shii'ism is NOT built on those same pillars! they have a different set of beliefs. ergo, Shii'ism is NOT Islam, HOWEVER, you don't pronounce takfir on ANYONE without proof. even then, better to tell the brother or sister that their beliefs are not Islam and try to guide them to the truth. you don't know, MAYBE your or my explanation of Pure Tawheed didn't make sense to them because of fault in our explanation. give them guidance, make dua for them but i would hold off calling them a kafr.

the best advise is to learn your Din. if you understand Islam and especially Tawheed, you will recognize error when you see it or hear it.

the muftisays line isn't bad, and i wouldn't call it terribly long either. you MUST understand these things in order to properly convey Islam.

Br Bilal Philips covers this in his series of lecture entitled: Foundation of Islamic Studies. you caqn download them here, they are at the VERY bottom of the page (ad if you think muftisays was long, this set runs over 17 hours):

http://www.bilalphilips.com/bilal_pa...sk=view&id=288

Sh Abdullah al-Farsi also covers this topic in his series of lectures on the 6 Pillars of Faith:

http://www.qsep.com/EemanDVD/index.htm

and revisits it on the one on Shirk:

http://www.qsep.com/dvd/fourfoundations.html

you may also take a course based upon Dr Philips work at his free online course here:

http://www.islamiconlineuniversity.com/opencampus/

you can't understand Islam without understanding Tawheed and Shirk. ONCE you understand Tawheed, it would be like someone saying something that is against Surah Ikhlas, you simply KNOW it can't be true! Shiias give the attributes of Allah to their Imams, which would be shirk in Tawheed al Asma wa Sifat. some even go further than.

if you are ever in Seattle, i have all those lectures on dvd and i pass them out freely all the time. but please take the time to learn about our Fabulous Religion that Allah gave us through Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe was Salaam! it can only bring benefit, In Sha'a Allah!

:sl:
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أحمد
10-19-2010, 01:13 AM
:sl:

People argue and call each other "kafir" as a resort to satisfy their own ego; its not necesarrily something related to Islam.

:wa:
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sabr*
10-19-2010, 10:09 PM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Just reviewed some treaties of the Shi'a madhhab and unable to verify the validity of the references.

Unverified citings:

http://www.kr-hcy.com/shia/kufr.shtml

The citings would put in question the Iman of anyone who would believe it.

The verified Shi'a accepted treaties:

Nahj al-Balagha- — Collected sermons of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib (RA) by Sayyad Raza

The Four Book (Al-Kutub Al-Arb'ah)

1. Kitab al-Kafi or Kulayni (divided into Usul al-Kafi, Furu al-Kafi and Rawdat al-Kafi)
2. Man la yahduruhi al-Faqih of Shaikh Saduq
3. Tahdhib al-Ahkam by Abu Ja'far al-Tusi
4. Al-Istibsar by Abu Ja'far al-Tusi

Wasael ush-Shia — 17th century by Shaikh al-Hur al-Aamili.
A 20 volume collection, meant to include all 'authentic' Hadith from the available Shia hadith books.

Just difficult to decipher the rhetoric from the actual statements that many who follow the Sunna consider heretical veiws. Reading the entire treaties in not in my current or future schedule.

I am comfortable with following the Sunna and acknowledging the Salafi. (First generations)
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Woodrow
10-19-2010, 10:43 PM
There are some differences between Sunni and Shi'i that are sufficient to cause each to wonder if the other is following Islam. The differences are large enough that some of us do not view the other as being Muslim. But, that is personal opinion and none of us should call the other kaffir as we both do say the same shahadah, follow the same 5 pillars and consider ourselves to be Muslim.

It is best none of us call anyone Kaffir without verified proof. Our opinions are just that, opinions.

Before we cause needless division among ourselves let us put this thread to sleep and keep in mind we are all Muslim in spite of what our personal views may be.

One Ummah-One Islam
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