What is the ruling regarding stealing?

[AlexJ90]

Salam

I have come across a verse in surah 5, that i need to discuss on.

[5:38] The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands* as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

I was slighly confused. Does ''MARK'' mean cut off??

I know the verse after that says
[5:39] If one repents after committing this crime, and reforms, GOD redeems him. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

But it still bothers me to read the verse before that.

Could anyone clear this up for me?

Salam.

[AlexJ90]

Thanks in advance

[AlexJ90]

I would be greatful

[aamirsaab]

Salam

What is the ruling regarding stealing. For example what are the punishments. What if one seeks for forgiveness?

Thanks in advance.

The punishment is to cut their hand off. But this is only given in the most severe theft cases and/or items above a certain value. Even then, the first thing the judge will ask the defendant is to give the item back. If this is not possible, they will be asked to reimburse the victim for their loss. If not, the judge will decide on a punishment best suited to fit the circumstance.

The limb cutting is the maixmum punishment - not the minimum.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[AlexJ90]

The punishment is to cut their hand off. But this is only given in the most severe theft cases and/or items above a certain value. Even then, the first thing the judge will ask the defendant is to give the item back. If this is not possible, they will be asked to reimburse the victim for their loss. If not, the judge will decide on a punishment best suited to fit the circumstance.

The limb cutting is the maixmum punishment - not the minimum.

Yes but even if these cases are severe, today we cant cut off peoples hands as a punishment can we? Wouldnt inprisonment seem more of a humane and better option? Cutting off someones hand seems too extreme doesnt it not?

[aamirsaab]

Yes but even if these cases are severe, today we cant cut off peoples hands as a punishment can we? Wouldnt inprisonment seem more of a humane and better option? Cutting off someones hand seems too extreme doesnt it not?

Imprisonment can be (and often is) used as a punishment for most crimes under Sharia. In the prophet's (SAW) time, it was rare for limb cutting just as it was for any form of capital punishment AND it only applies to muslim criminals, who are not children or mentally ill.

It is intentionally difficult to receive any of the capital punishments in Islam because their aims are to deter people away from those crimes.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Both hands of the thief have to be firstly cut off from being in a position to steal; the ayah states this as being a deterrent.

Sahih International 5:38:

[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah . And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.

:wa:

[Hamza Asadullah]

Yes but even if these cases are severe, today we cant cut off peoples hands as a punishment can we? Wouldnt inprisonment seem more of a humane and better option? Cutting off someones hand seems too extreme doesnt it not?

Asalaamu Alaikum brother, consider the following short article in regards to the concept of punishment in Islam:

Before deciding whether or not a criminal should be punished, we must determine the extent of his responsibility for the offence he committed. It is to be noted that Islam takes this into account when it considers the question of crime and punishment.

Islam strives by various means to preclude circumstances that may lead to crime..

Islam imposes preventive punishments, which may appear to be cruel or coarse if viewed superficially or without proper consideration. But Islam does not execute such punishments unless it ascertains that the crime was not justifiable or that the criminal was not acting under any obligation.

STEALING

Islam prescribes that a thief’s hand should be cut, but such punishment is never inflicted when there is the slightest doubt that the thief was impelled to crime by hunger. It can only be applied if goods stolen are over a set value and consideration is given to whether this is a first offence or the person is a compulsive thief. Its effectiveness as a deterrent can be demonstrated in that in a 400 year period when it was applied 6 people had their hand cut off.

Compare this with the rampant crimes being committed every day in modern society, where houses are broken into every few minutes and cars are stolen with such frequency that police find themselves in a vicious circle of car chases, leading in most instances to damage to property and in some cases death of innocent people. Police are also finding that in many instances it is repeat offenders who have scant regard for people’s property and less regard for the judicial system. In America many dozens of people are killed every day because of petty theft.

ADULTERY

Islam prescribes that both adulterer and adulteress should be stoned but it does not inflict such punishment unless they are married persons and upon conclusive evidence by 4 witnesses who saw everything with complete clarity. Any doubts and the sentence would be commuted. This principle is supported by the saying of the Prophet (Sallallahu ALaihi Wasallam);

“Avoid the execution of punishment by doubt”.

Islam does not hasten to inflict punishment unless the criminal has disregarded traditions and degenerated to animality by committing adultery so openly that he could be seen by 4 eye-witnesses.

CAPITAL PUNISHIMENT

Islam has a unique system in that the relatives can have a say in the sentence of a murderer, and when taken in perspective it makes such obvious sense as the relatives are the people most affected by such a crime.

If the evidence is conclusive the relatives have the right to either ask for capital punishment to be carried out or to commute the sentence to a jail term with the murderer also having to pay compensation to the victim’s family.

If we study the policy adopted by Islam in prescribing punishment we realise that Islam tries in the first place to purify society from circumstances that may lead to crime. After taking such precautions Islam prescribes a preventive and just punishment which may be inflicted upon persons who have no reasonable justification for their crimes.

Where the community is unable to preclude circumstances which may lead to crime or where there is some doubt regarding the crime, the punishment will not be inflicted and the ruler will set the criminal free or he may inflict on him a light punishment (beating or imprisonment) in proportion to his extent of responsibility for the crime.

These punishments were prescribed in order to frighten those individuals who have no reasonable motive for crime yet felt a strong desire for committing crimes. However strong their motives may be, punishment will surely make them think twice before committing any crime. So long as the community works for the public good and cares for all its members, the community is entitled to full security with respect to persons and property.

On the other hand, those people who tend to commit crimes for no clear reasons are not left to their fate. Islam tries all possible means to treat and restore them to normality.

Source: http://www.islamicnetwork.com/index....f_punishment1/

Hope that clarified things for you. If you have any questions at all then please do not hesitate to ask.

And Allah knows best in all matters

[Yanal]

Asalam alaykum,

Theft s another device for acquiring wealth in a haaram way,it is unlawful in Islaam because it deprives a man of his belongings without any justifiable reason.Moreoer it causes unrest in the society.The theives are menace to the society and are looked upon as a source of terror,in order ti cruch the tendancy of stealing the Holy Qur'aan has ordained strict measures,it says: "And as for the theif,both male and female,cut of their hands as a punishement for what they have done;an exemplary punishement from Allaah,The Mighty,The Wise,but who repents after his transgression and amends himself,Allaah shall turn to him mercifully,for Allaah if all Forgiving and Merciful." (5:38,39)

Theft is Haraam (forbidden) according to the Quran, Sunnah [sayings of Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam (may Allaah exalt his mention)] and Ijmaa’ (scholarly consensus). Allaah, the Most Exalted, has condemned this action and decreed an appropriate punishment for it. The Hadd [i.e. the legal punishment prescribed by the Sharee'ah (Islamic law)] for a thief is to cut off the thief's hand. Allaah Almighty Says in the Noble Quran (what means):
“[As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they earned [i.e. committed] as a deterrent [punishment] from Allaah. And Allaah is Exalted in Might and Wise.” [Quran 5:38]
The Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam said:
“The hand (of the thief) should be cut off for (the theft of) a quarter of a Dinar or more.” [Al-Bukhaari]
The Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, cursed the thief because he is a corrupt element in society, and if he is left unpunished, his corruption will spread and infect the body of the Ummah (Muslim community). He, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, said:
“May Allaah curse the thief who steals an egg and has his hand cut off, or steals a rope and has his hand cut off.” [Al-Bukhaari]
What indicates that this ruling is definitive is the fact that a Makhzoomi noblewoman (from the tribe of Makhzoom) stole at the time of the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, and Usaamah Ibn Zayd, may Allaah be pleased with him, wanted to intercede for her. The Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, became angry and said:
“Do you intercede concerning one of the Hadd set by Allaah? Those who came before you were destroyed because if a rich man among them stole, they would let him off, but if a lowly person stole, they would carry out the punishment on him. By Allaah, if Faatimah Bint (daughter of) Muhammad were to steal, I would cut off her hand.” [Al-Bukhaari]
This is the ruling of Allaah concerning theft; that the hand should be cut off from the wrist joint.
Al-Nawawi, may Allaah have mercy upon him, said in his commentary on Saheeh Muslim (Hadeeth collection): Al-Shaafa'i, Abu Haneefah, Maalik and the majority (of scholars), may Allaah have mercy upon them, said: "The hand should be cut off from the wrist, where the hand meets the forearm." Al-Qurtubi, may Allaah have mercy upon him, said: "All the scholars said: The hand should be cut off from the wrist, not as some of the innovators do when they cut off the fingers and leave the thumb."
Because cutting off the hand is a serious matter, it should not be done for just any case of theft. A combination of conditions must be fulfilled before the hand of a thief is cut off. These conditions are as follows:
1- The thing should have been taken by stealth; if it was not taken by stealth, then the hand should not be cut off, such as when property has been seized by force in front of other people, because in this case the owner of the property could have asked for help to stop the thief.
2- The stolen property should be something of worth, because that which is of no worth has no sanctity, such as musical instruments, wine and pigs.
2- The value of the stolen property should be above a certain limit, which is three Islamic Dirhams or a quarter of an Islamic Dinar, or their equivalent in other currencies.
3- The stolen property should have been taken from a place where it had been put away, i.e., a place where people usually put their property, such as a cupboard, for example.
4- The theft itself has to be proven, either by the testimony of two qualified witnesses or by the confession of the thief twice.
5- The person from whom the property was stolen has to ask for it back; if he does not, then (the thief’s) hand does not have to be cut off.
If these conditions are fulfilled, then the hand must be cut off. If this ruling was applied in the societies which are content with man-made laws and which have cast aside the Sharee’ah of Allaah and replaced it with human laws, this would be the most beneficial treatment for this phenomenon. But the matter is as Allaah Says (what means):
“Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allaah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].” [Quran 5:50]

http://main.islamweb.net/emainpage/i...cles&id=136791

Insha'Allaah this will assist you.

[AlexJ90]

Thanks for the reply guys.

As i was going through the Qu'ran recently. I have come across this verse and need some advice on this. The above verse In 5:38 states to ''mark the hand'', there are many interpretations on this, however lets just assume it means to cut the hand.

However why isit in verse 12:76 it basically states that Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen.

??? Even though this punishment seems more appropriate. Why are there two different verses expalining the punishment for stealing in a different way?

Personally I believe its best to interpret the punishment for stealing in regards to 12:76. But doesnt that in some way contradict the punishment in 5:38?

Would be grateful if somebody could clear this up for me.

Jazkallah

[AlexJ90]

anyone reply?

[AlexJ90]

anyone reply?

[anonymous]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

Salamu alaykum brother, i have tried to reply to your post about ruling of theft in Islam, but it wasn't convenient so i thought about posting a thread in reply to your concerns.

Firstly, its important to note that the majority of Islamic rulings are about Charity, then family matters such as marriage and divorce...etc. Punishments only make up 5% of the total contents of Islamic law. However, we see that the anti-Islamic media likes to put the focus on the punishments fields and disregard the other contents such as Charity and Purification.

When we examine the rulings of Islam, we will find them to be the most perfect, and this is when we carefully take them into examination and put every condition into consideration. This is why we need to take time is required to think and carefully observe before we make any haste wrong remarks such as "that's ridiculous".
Its also important to note that No punishment will be applied on the following:

- The insane
- Children
- In an accidental case

Another very important point is that there are conditions where the punishments are absolutely lifted and that's when their is a case like EXTREME POVERTY. In such cases there would be no punishments carried at all, and this is what happened in the time of the Caliphate of Umar Ibn AlKhattabb.

The person accounted for applying the Islamic law is THE MUSLIM RULER in authority. No average citizen can be assigned, or assign himself to carry them. This is a very clear point in Islamic law.

There is no way that part of the Islamic ruling would be applied and some part not. Therefore, if we are in a country where the inhabitants don't give Zakat and contribute in charitable funds, then in such a community if a person committed robbery(especially if they were poor), no punishment will be applied on them. Thus to get the fair balance set the rich community has to give the poor their due rights otherwise punishment of theft will not be applied.

There are certain items and food items under a certain proportion where no punishment is required if they are stolen. Money theft does is not charged if it's below 1/4 a a quarter.(Insha'Allah we will talk through why exactly a quarter because some argue that its a low portion for a punishment to be carried at.) As well as the stolen item has to be preserved in a lock or bank and not displayed to the public reach for the crime to be classified as theft. If a parent takes money from their offspring , no punishment is applied on the parent; the same goes for the offspring if they stole from their parents no punishment is applied on them.

No punishment can be applied without clear evidence and that requires witnesses and the accused person has to further confirm whether he is guilty.

Alright, now lets come to your concern about the ruling of theft. Lets consider the other punishments that other lets say irreligious verdicts would give which is mainly going to be jail , imprisonment. Now, Islam is the most religion that values human life and considers it sacred. In the same Chapter of the Glorious Qura'n , Allah The Exalted says:

((Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!.)). Truthful Is Allah, The Great.

Human beings and their safety as well as other living souls are no game, and their body parts including their limbs are not plastic which we can play with. If one human is killed injusticely is considered as killing the whole human race, then also cutting one human being's hand unjustly is like having the hands of the entire human race being dispatched. This is something indisputable. When a person commits theft and takes lets say 25c; a quarter, then if he is fully convicted, considering all the above conditions( such as he is not insane, he stole from other than his parents or children, he is not under extreme poverty conditions, he is a full grown adult, he has been witnessed at, he himself confirms his guilty of robbery, he is bought to the authority,) then at this case the punishment will be applied (by the ruler in authority). You may ask why at such a low wage , i mean its 1/4 a bill. Through the answer, Insha'Allah you will come to learn how Allah is perfect and His Divine law is flawless. If the person is pardoned for the 25c and gets away with it, then if he is associated in a gang of only 4 members then that would be enough for each of them to collect 1 dollar and get away with it. In reality most theft gangs consist of 20 and above members, so you could imagine the amount of dollars they will be collecting if each of them steal only 1 quarter. When you mindfully measure it, these gangs would end up stealing hundreds if not thousands of dollars according to their amount of membership. This is of course with putting the mentioned conditions in mind, such as they are not insane, they are not in desprate poverty conditions, they are fully grown adults, they confirm their conviction, the citizen population pays Zakat, the person responsible for applying the lay is the ruler in authority.

And AlHamduli'Allah Rabb AlAlameen, May Allah give you the best in this world and in the hereafter fellow brother.

[aamirsaab]

Thanks for the reply guys.

As i was going through the Qu'ran recently. I have come across this verse and need some advice on this. The above verse In 5:38 states to ''mark the hand'', there are many interpretations on this, however lets just assume it means to cut the hand.

However why isit in verse 12:76 it basically states that Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen.

??? Even though this punishment seems more appropriate. Why are there two different verses expalining the punishment for stealing in a different way?

Personally I believe its best to interpret the punishment for stealing in regards to 12:76. But doesnt that in some way contradict the punishment in 5:38?

Would be grateful if somebody could clear this up for me.

Jazkallah

There's more than one punishment for theft. From memory: You can either pay for the good, replace it, make up for it, community service, serve jail time or in some, very exceptional circumstances, receive capital punishment. So there's no contradiction.

[AlexJ90]

There's more than one punishment for theft. From memory: You can either pay for the good, replace it, make up for it, community service, serve jail time or in some, very exceptional circumstances, receive capital punishment. So there's no contradiction.

Thanks for the reply. But i dont understand, what is the main punishment? why is there 2 different verses giving out a different meaning in regards to this? Why wasnt the verses in 12:76 just givenin 5:38 as one?. I need a thorough explanation please. This has confused me. Im just saying this because i have friends who could be interested in converting but if i give them the quran to read what can i say if they come across this issue and ask me a question as to why theres different ways of punishing the offender in different verses? ....

[aamirsaab]

Akhi, could you paste the whole of sura 12 verse 76, so we are both on the same page.

For your friends wishing to convert, just tell them what I posted: there is more than one punishment for theft (it depends on the case).

[Hamza Asadullah]

Thanks for the reply guys.

As i was going through the Qu'ran recently. I have come across this verse and need some advice on this. The above verse In 5:38 states to ''mark the hand'', there are many interpretations on this, however lets just assume it means to cut the hand.

However why isit in verse 12:76 it basically states that Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen.

??? Even though this punishment seems more appropriate. Why are there two different verses expalining the punishment for stealing in a different way?

Personally I believe its best to interpret the punishment for stealing in regards to 12:76. But doesnt that in some way contradict the punishment in 5:38?

Would be grateful if somebody could clear this up for me.

Jazkallah

Asalaamu Alaikum, sorry for the late reply. Regarding your question, verse 12:76 is part of the story of Yusuf (AS) where early on in his life both of his brothers had pushed him in a well out of jealousy but he did manage to escape and was eventually sold as a slave in Egypt.

After many events he was imprisoned where it became known that he could interpret dreams. The king asked for him to intepret a dream he kept having and he interpreted it correctly which resulted in him saving the whole kingdom from famine and starvation. From this he gained an important government position looking after food stocks.

His brothers and his father Yaqub (As) lived in Palestine which was experiencing a lot of famine and starvation because of crop and food shortages and so the father of Yusuf's two brothers (who had pushed him in the well) ordered his two brothers to go and get grain from Egypt where stock was plentiful. This is where Yusuf was looking after the grain stores.

So his brothers came to get grain but they did not recognise Yusuf (As) but Yusuf (AS) recognised them and he was happy inside and most generous to them. He enquired about their father and they informed him about his halth and also mentioned they had a younger brother Benyamin.

Yusuf (AS) really wanted to see his younger brother so he ordered the two brothers to bring their younger brother Benyamin with them next time they came to get grain otherwise they would not get any grain again.

So his brothers informed their father Yaqub (As) that the opne who looked after the grain stores (Yusuf) ordered them to bring their younger brother next time they came otherwise they would not get any grain. So they convinced their father who was very worried because the last time he trusted the two brothers they had lost Yusuf (As0 and he did not want the same to happen to their younger brother.

He eventually agreed and Yusuf's brothers returned again for grain bringing their younger brother Benyamin with them. Yusuf (AS) was most happy and took Benyamin aside and revealed his true identity only to him to which Benyamin was most happy.

In order for Yusuf (AS) to keep Benyamin with him with him he ordered one of his servants to put a golden cup into Benyamins bag and when the people searched the brothers bags and found the cup in Benyamins bag they told him he will have to stay here because of his crime meaning the brothers who still did not know that was Yusuf (AS) had to go back home and explain to their father that he had now also lost his younger son who had to stay because of being accused of stealing. But this was only a plot by Yusuf (As) to keep his younger brother with him as Allah had willed.

Eventually when his brothers came back after experiencing much hardship and famine Yusuf (As) revealed his identity to them and asked his father and family to join him.

You should read the story of Yusuf (AS) and you will understand the beautiful story much better. Hope that clarified things for you.

Regarding the Islamic perspective on stealing then Sheikh Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam Al Kawthari answers your question:

The different penalties prescribed by Shariah is not in order to inflict harm on people and make them suffer, rather the Shariah concept for imposing penalties for the various crimes is that they prevent harm, destruction and anarchy in the society. They are not prescribed in order to harm people, but the contrary.

Allah Most High says:

"In the law of retaliation there is (saving of) life to you, O you men of understanding" (Surah al-Baqarah, 179).

Due to the idea behind these various penalties being imposed not to make an individual suffer, rather to create a better society as a whole, the Shariah laid down certain strict rules and conditions in order for the punishment to be established or enforced. These strict conditions can be seen in all the various penalties that have been imposed.

The case with theft and stealing is the same in that certain conditions have been laid down for the penalty to be imposed. If the conditions are met, only then will such a penalty be enforced.

Conditions for the penalty of theft:

The following are the conditions which must be met in order to establish the penalty of theft:

1) The one who steals is sane

2) He has reached puberty

3) He steals equivalent to the amount (nisab) or more. The Nisab is one Dinar or ten Dirhams (i.e. 4.374 grams of gold). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said:

"There is no cutting (of hands) for stealing that is less then ten Dirhams" (Musnad Ahmad).

Sayyidah Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reports that "The hands were not cut in the time of the Messenger of Allah for stealing worthless things" (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah).

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates that: "The hand of a thief was not cut off during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give peace) except for stealing something equal to a shield in value" (Sahih al-Bukhari, 6792, & Sahih Muslim, 1685).

A shield was worth one Dinar at that time, as narrated by Ibn Abbas in Sunan Abu Dawud & Sunan Nasa'i.

4) He steals the article from a place that meets the requirements of security and safeguarding. This security is considered when the article is safeguarded by a guard or by it being locked in a place.

5) The article is in the ownership of another person

6) There is no confusion in it (as to whether he took it by way of theft or for some other reason).

7) It was stolen secretly (not by force, etc).

If any of the above conditions are not met, then the penalty of theft will not be established.

Allah Most High says:

"As to the thief, male of female, cut off his or her hands. A punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime" (Surah al-Ma'idah, 38).

As far as the evidence and testimony is concerned, stealing will be established by self admittance once or by the testimony of two adult males. The witnesses will be asked the details of the incident, as not to make an error.

A person's hand is not amputated when he steals less than the equivalent of 4.374 grams of gold, from place that does not meet the requirements of security, something that is useless, something that is in general ownership such as water in the river, sticks from the wood, etc�, food that rots very quickly such as milk, meat, fruits, etc�, articles that are unlawful due to the possibility that one had an intention of getting rid of it, such as musical instruments.

The penalty:

The penalty for the one who steals (when the above conditions are met) is that his/her right arm is amputated. If a person steals a second time, his left foot is amputated; if a third time, then he will be imprisoned until he repents, but no further amputation will take place.

Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) says:

"I feel guilty in front of Allah if I leave him without hands (i.e. amputating both) by which he eats, and feet, by which he walks" (Sunan Darqutni, al-Bayhaqi & Musannaf ibn Abi Shayba).

The above are some of the important aspects relating to the penalty of theft. It has been primarily based on the famous Hanafi work (al-Ikhtiyar li ta'lil al-Mukhtar, P341-351).

Source: http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=1895&CATE=12

So Islam prescribes that a thief’s hand should be cut, but such punishment is never inflicted when there is the slightest doubt that the thief was impelled to crime by hunger. It can only be applied if goods stolen are over a set value and consideration is given to whether this is a first offence or the person is a compulsive thief. Its effectiveness as a deterrent can be demonstrated in that in a 400 year period when it was applied 6 people had their hand cut off.

Compare this with the rampant crimes being committed every day in modern society, where houses are broken into every few minutes and cars are stolen with such frequency that police find themselves in a vicious circle of car chases, leading in most instances to damage to property and in some cases death of innocent people. Police are also finding that in many instances it is repeat offenders who have scant regard for people’s property and less regard for the judicial system. In America many dozens of people are killed every day because of petty theft.


And Allah knows best in all matters

[AlexJ90]

Thanks for the reply brother. I appreciate you clarifying the verses about Yusuf. However In regards to the verse where the punishment is indeed amputation. Even though witnesses must be needed etc, wouldn't you agree there ought to be a re-interpretation of Islamic verses about ancient punishments? Personally I believe the punishments laid down fourteen centuries ago had to be truly severe enough to be a deterrent in their day, but since then our God has taught us more about crime, its causes, the methods of its investigation, the limits of guilt, and the much wider range of possible punishments.

Wouldn't you agree?

Please state reasons, this is a very interesting discussion. I personally would say i hold a very liberal thought within Islam.
I have friends wishing to convert so i just want them to know our religion is a religion of peace entirely. While stealing is wrong indeed, there are more humane methods of punishment today, which im sure you can agree on.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Thanks for the reply brother. I appreciate you clarifying the verses about Yusuf. However In regards to the verse where the punishment is indeed amputation. Even though witnesses must be needed etc, wouldn't you agree there ought to be a re-interpretation of Islamic verses about ancient punishments? Personally I believe the punishments laid down fourteen centuries ago had to be truly severe enough to be a deterrent in their day, but since then our God has taught us more about crime, its causes, the methods of its investigation, the limits of guilt, and the much wider range of possible punishments.

Wouldn't you agree?

I couldnt disagree more.

There is NO doubt that harsher penalites and punishments are needed more now than EVER before. Inn the UK and US there is a VERY major and worrying problem of overfilled prisons. Why? Simply because people are not scared to commit crimes because the penalties are way to lenient. It is also a FACT that the majority of those in prisons WILL re-offend. That means that the current laws are simply just NOT working. Why do you think so many laws in the UK have been made slightly harsher especially regarding knife crime which is rapindly on the increase but those harsher penalties are still NOT working because knife crime is still rising. That is simply because the current laws just do not act as a good enough deterrant. A person could steal and walk free like normal not even having a tarnish on their record. The laws are too relaxed and that is why theft and all other crimes are on the increase.

At the moment the UK government is desperatley trying to find ways to reduce prison populations but how can they without releasing criminals? The only other way is to introduce harsher penalties because the facts are that the current laws are just NOT deterring criminals from committing crimes. If they did then why do the majority go on to re-offend? Simply because the laws just do NOT deter people from committing crimes.

Thefts, burglarys and all other crimes are spiralling out of control at very worrying levels and there is NOTHING that will stop this increase except harsher penalites. Therefore the ONLY answer is to establish the law of Allah and that is the ONLY law best for the whole of mankind and without a doubt these laws would bring crimes down significantly in every society.

What we must understand is that the laws of Allah are NOT just for one part of society at a certain time perioud but they are for EVERY society until the very last day on Earth. They are for all times and all societies because crime exists in every society and the laws of Allah are needed in every society particularly in the west where EVERY single crime is on the rise.

So brother if you are truly a Muslim then you must never think that the laws of Alah are only for a certain time perioud because the laws of Allah are universal and apply to every aspect of every society. There is no doubt that all crimes are on the increase so is it not logical that the laws of Allah are needed in such a time like we are in now to stem the rapid increase in crime?

Without a doubt the laws of Allah are crucial for the success of every society in this world.

And Allah knows best in all matters

[AlexJ90]

thanks akhi.

i understand you have a point. However punishments for murder i would say capital punishment would be reasonable (an eye for an eye). But i doubt the UK would bring that in to power. The death penalty for murder could be a strong deterrent itself. Alot of young people out there involved in knife crime would think twice. However for stealing, I personally believe amputating somebodys hand is too harsh, especially if this thief stole for example food to feed to his poor and hungry family.. Would he deserve his hand cut off then?

Just out interest, what country actually places this punishment into power?

[Hamza Asadullah]

thanks akhi.



i understand you have a point. However punishments for murder i would say capital punishment would be reasonable (an eye for an eye). But i doubt the UK would bring that in to power. The death penalty for murder could be a strong deterrent itself. Alot of young people out there involved in knife crime would think twice. However for stealing, I personally believe amputating somebodys hand is too harsh, especially if this thief stole for example food to feed to his poor and hungry family.. Would he deserve his hand cut off then?



Just out interest, what country actually places this punishment into power?

No country currently has any shariah law in place. From what you have mentioned it is clear that you have not fully understood the correct Islamic position regarding stealing and that is thattin order for the theif to be convicted of his crime and for the punishment to be established then it can only be done after testimony of two adult males. The witnesses will be asked the details of the incident, as not to make an error.



A person's hand is not amputated when he steals less than the equivalent of 4.374 grams of gold, from place that does not meet the requirements of security, something that is useless, something that is in general ownership such as water in the river, sticks from the wood, etc�, food that rots very quickly such as milk, meat, fruits, etc, articles that are unlawful due to the possibility that one had an intention of getting rid of it, such as musical instruments.



So food is not mentioned as part of the punishment for theft. In order for this punishment to be carried it the above strict conditions have to be met and so if this law was establish it would not be carried out a lot of the times because of the fact that so many conditions have to be met but what it is really good for is an effective deterrant.



Although a petty crime theft costs society millions every year. There is also no doubt that those who commit theft are regular in their crimes. In every area there will be known theifs and most of the times they keep on stealing simply because they can get away with lenient punishments. There is NO doubt that if every society adopted the laws of Allah that theft would literally vanish from society simply because NO ONE would want to risk having their hand cut off just for stealing something.



You look in prison and you will notice that those who commit serious theft like aggravated burglary and voilet thefts started off with petty minor thefts and eventually built their way up to more serious theft. So if a person is not stopped they will eventually progress into committing more serious thefts which involve aggravated burglarys. If you or anyone you know were a victim of such a horrible crime then you would realise why such laws are needed.



Worryingly aggravated burglarys are on the increase and again it is because the laws are just too lenient. If the laws were harsh then those committing such crimes would think twice. If petty theifs are not stopped they will inevitabley progress into becoming burglars using voilance to steal things.



Therefore there is NO doubt that every society needs these laws to get rid of these crimes particularly theft which is the most common of crimes in most societies. How can such a common crime be eradicated? NOT by any laws that are established today because they are simply too lenient and no one is put off stealing. But by establishing the laws of Allah which will result in those theives thinking twice before even considering theft.



In regards to what you stated about a man theiving for his family well that would not be the case under the laws of Allah as such people would be provided for by the government.



And Allah knows best in all matters

[Ramadhan]

Personally I believe the punishments laid down fourteen centuries ago had to be truly severe enough to be a deterrent in their day, but since then our God has taught us more about crime, its causes, the methods of its investigation, the limits of guilt, and the much wider range of possible punishments.

Just out interest, what country actually places this punishment into power?

do you know that China executes its biggest government official corruptors as method of deterrent, and it works! The Index of perception of corruption in China continues to get better.
While in Indonesia, people who steal big are dealt leniently, and as a result, more people continue to steal and many if not most government officials are corrupt (yes, corruption is stealing, and it is actually much worse than stealing in terms of effect)

As Aamirsaab mentioned, in Islam there's more than one punishments for stealing.

[AlexJ90]

Right so wouldnt this method of punishment be more of a deterrent than a punishment itself? I mean what are the odds of having four witnessess (for eye witness testimony im sure you know the number of witnesses required was doubled from Islamic law's usual standard of two to four), and getting a confession out of the offender four times.

Lets say he did steal something and only 1 witness saw him. He cannot be punished as a) there was only 1 witness and b) he is not confessing so the lack of evidence would drop any charges against him, correct?

its sort of like the punishment for adultery, which is flogging right? however im sure for that there need to be 4 witnesses to actually witness penetration, what are the odds in that?

I see this as a deterrent to put people off from committing these crimes in the first place, which is smart as it could help bring down the crime rate etc.

[GuestFellow]

Thanks for the reply brother. I appreciate you clarifying the verses about Yusuf. However In regards to the verse where the punishment is indeed amputation. Even though witnesses must be needed etc, wouldn't you agree there ought to be a re-interpretation of Islamic verses about ancient punishments?

Salaam,

You are not allowed to re-interpret the Qur'an.

Personally I believe the punishments laid down fourteen centuries ago had to be truly severe enough to be a deterrent in their day, but since then our God has taught us more about crime, its causes, the methods of its investigation, the limits of guilt, and the much wider range of possible punishments.

I've studied Criminal Litigation. From what I can remember we have 5 main sentencing principles: retribution, deterrence, protection, rehabilitation and reparation. The current system focuses on rehabilitation which I doubt is working because we have a high crime rate. Even with all the advancements of psychology and rehabilitation schemes, offenders re-offend in the future.

The Sharia focuses on deterrence. In order for deterrence to be effective, the punishments need to be severe. This will put people off from committing the crime.

The Sharia will lead to reduced crime rate, safer society, resolve the problem of prison overpopulation and less stress for the courts.

While stealing is wrong indeed, there are more humane methods of punishment today, which im sure you can agree on.

Imprisonment and fines do not work all the time. There are other problems with the UK criminal litigation process but these punishments are not severe. It is embarrassing to the extent that the UK protects criminals more than homeless people. We spend so much money on these criminals when the money could be used to help people that did nothing wrong.