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Junon
10-21-2010, 06:18 PM
Salaam

A Saudi prince has been jailed for life for murdering his servant at a hotel in central London.

The Old Bailey was told the assault by Saud Abdulaziz bin Nasser al Saud had a "sexual element" and he had attacked Mr Abdulaziz many times before.

Al Saud, 34, who had admitted manslaughter but denied murder, was given a minimum jail term of 20 years.

The Saudi prince was also found guilty of causing grievous bodily harm with intent in relation to an earlier attack in a hotel lift, a charge which he had denied.

The murder of Mr Abdulaziz was the final act in a "deeply abusive" master-servant relationship in which Al Saud carried out frequent attacks on his aide "for his own personal gratification".

Dashing' killer

Judge Mr Justice Bean said: "You were in a position of authority and trust over him which you exploited ruthlessly.

"I think the most likely explanation is that you could not care less whether you killed him or not."
Rest of story here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11581728
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Muslim Woman
10-29-2010, 01:01 AM
Salaam

what's the reaction of Saudi Royal family ???
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جوري
10-29-2010, 01:56 AM
he caused a death and was given life? sob7an Allah.. what is this world coming to?
I don't understand where people get the heart to torture yet alone murder another human being but in my book a life for a life as prescribed by Allah swt is justice!
the so-called royal family should lead by example!

:w:
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Ramadhan
10-29-2010, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
the so-called royal family should lead by example!
I concur.

I remember a hadith that basically tells Rasulullah SAW said along the line "By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. " (HR. Bukhari)

The ruling should lead by the best example.
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Trumble
10-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
he caused a death and was given life? sob7an Allah.. what is this world coming to?
It's senses. No country in the EU has the death penalty; we leave that particular barbarism for the likes of China, Burma, North Korea, the USA....

the so-called royal family should lead by example!

:w:
I doubt they'll get the chance. The sentence will be served in a British prison; not least because Al Saud is hardly likely to want to move to a Saudi prison in the circumstances.
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Argamemnon
10-29-2010, 06:17 PM
Not applying the death penalty to a murderer is barbarism...
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marwen
10-29-2010, 06:38 PM
The good news is that he was at least accused and jailed, fortunately. If he was still in KSA, no one probably will hear about the poor servant murder, aal Saud (the ruling family) are above the law.
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nousername
10-29-2010, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
It's senses. No country in the EU has the death penalty; we leave that particular barbarism for the likes of China, Burma, North Korea, the USA....



I doubt they'll get the chance. The sentence will be served in a British prison; not least because Al Saud is hardly likely to want to move to a Saudi prison in the circumstances.
If your son or daughter is tortured, possibly sexually assaulted, and then ruthlessly murdered, God Forbid, we'll see if you keep the same attitude. The killer obviously believes in the death penalty so why in the world should he be exempt from his own policy??
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جوري
10-29-2010, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
It's senses. No country in the EU has the death penalty; we leave that particular barbarism for the likes of China, Burma, North Korea, the USA..

It isn't Barbarism in your mind to inflict death upon a poor blue collar worker and abuse him? but barbarism to deal with the abuser justly in a like manner?
as stated prior I find your moral compass to be questionable to say the least!
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IslamicRevival
10-29-2010, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
we leave that particular barbarism for the likes of China, Burma, North Korea, the USA
If a dog attacks an innocent bystander, that dog would be put down (No questions asked). If a Human being kills another human being, whats wrong with giving him a taste of his own medicine IE The Death Penalty?
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S_87
10-29-2010, 08:02 PM
should be sent back to saudi to face the death penalty. now that its public, its not something they can put under the carpet easily. Especially since they were involved
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Trumble
10-29-2010, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
If a dog attacks an innocent bystander, that dog would be put down (No questions asked).
Dogs are generally considered less important than people (I'm making no moral comment on that one way or the other). In the case of people, questions usually ARE asked, ultimately in the form of a trial. A trial, being ultimately a human activity is subject to error; many murder convictions are overturned. Bit late if the person has been hung or fried, isn't it?

If a Human being kills another human being, whats wrong with giving him a taste of his own medicine IE The Death Penalty?
I'm amazed that some theists hold such a casual view of the value of human life, and consider themselves worthy of deciding whether another deserves to retain it or not. Isn't every human being supposed to be the property of God? Ultimately, surely, the fate of the murderer is decided by God.. but clearly not through always influencing juries to reach the right decision. After all, what is a "taste of his own medicine" compared with a trip to Hell? There is surely no need to accelerate the process except a need to satisfy bloodlust and revenge and, although people don't like to hear it, that is the only genuine motivation capital punishment has.
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Alpha Dude
10-29-2010, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In the case of people, questions usually ARE asked, ultimately in the form of a trial. A trial, being ultimately a human activity is subject to error; many murder convictions are overturned. Bit late if the person has been hung or fried, isn't it?
Trumble, if this is your reason for not supporting executions, then surely in the case where there is absolute proof (e.g. undeniable video evidence) you should relent?

Also, just curious... were it in your power, what punishment would you personally have inflicted on mass murderers like Hitler?
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Ramadhan
10-30-2010, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Ultimately, surely, the fate of the murderer is decided by God.. but clearly not through always influencing juries to reach the right decision. After all, what is a "taste of his own medicine" compared with a trip to Hell? There is surely no need to accelerate the process except a need to satisfy bloodlust and revenge and,
Well, if the murderer repents before their executions, the death penalty may actually be expiation of their sins, and they may be even be spared of hell, if God decides.
but of course you atheists do not believe this.

Originally Posted by Trumble
Ultimately, surely, the fate of the murderer is decided by God
The punishment for unjust murder/killing in Islam is death, unless the family of the murdered/killed forgive the killer.

Originally Posted by Trumble
here is surely no need to accelerate the process except a need to satisfy bloodlust and revenge and, although people don't like to hear it, that is the only genuine motivation capital punishment has.
Maybe this surprises you, but for muslims, enactment of capital punishments for particular crimes is actually from God.
But of course you do not believe that.
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Trumble
10-30-2010, 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
Trumble, if this is your reason for not supporting executions, then surely in the case where there is absolute proof (e.g. undeniable video evidence) you should relent?
It's one of my reasons, but by no means the only one. I don't accept that case exists in reality, anyway. Firstly, a case should be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" to obtain a conviction in the first place. 'Absolute' is a mathematical abstraction, but in the real world how does 'absolute' differ from 'beyond reasonable doubt'? I never could understand why people keep giving video evidence as an example of this.. don't they ever go to the movies?! Video can be faked. Scientific tests can be screwed up. Confessions can be forced.

Originally Posted by naidamar
Well, if the murderer repents before their executions, the death penalty may actually be expiation of their sins, and they may be even be spared of hell, if God decides.
So God decides if the sinner is spared hell, but you get to toss the dice as to whether execution may be sufficient to atone for their sin or not? I could accept that if the murderer freely expressed a genuine wish to be executed for that purpose, perhaps.

But of course you do not believe that.
I believe muslims believe it. I don't, not only because I don't believe there is a God to dispense such instructions but because I think that this one is totally inconsistent with the existence of such a God if He did exist. It's merely a reflection of a particular time and culture long since gone, just as is the OT equivalent. But, of course you don't believe that!
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Ramadhan
10-30-2010, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
So God decides if the sinner is spared hell, but you get to toss the dice as to whether execution may be sufficient to atone for their sin or not?
If my previous post is still not clear to you, let me reiterate:
The capital punishment for unjust murder is from God, we (muslims) do not decide on our own.
But of course you do not believe that, and you do not understand that, despite repeatedly saying so.


I believe muslims believe it. I don't, not only because I don't believe there is a God to dispense such instructions but because I think that this one is totally inconsistent with the existence of such a God if He did exist.
Pardon me, but I find it hilarious that someone who does not believe in the existence of god like you can have such definite expectation of what god should be.

Anyway, an equal and just punishment for crimes fits perfectly with the attribute of God who is just.


It's merely a reflection of a particular time and culture long since gone, just as is the OT equivalent. But, of course you don't believe that!
Pardon me again, but I keep find you hilarious, as an atheist buddhist (as opposed to many buddhists I know who believe in the existence of a creator), you could have such a strong christian view, who regard the OT as a mere relic from the ancient past.

But of course you do not believe THAT!
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Alpha Dude
10-30-2010, 10:34 AM
It's one of my reasons, but by no means the only one. I don't accept that case exists in reality, anyway. Firstly, a case should be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" to obtain a conviction in the first place. 'Absolute' is a mathematical abstraction, but in the real world how does 'absolute' differ from 'beyond reasonable doubt'? I never could understand why people keep giving video evidence as an example of this.. don't they ever go to the movies?! Video can be faked. Scientific tests can be screwed up. Confessions can be forced.
Okay. How about for absolute, undeniable proof, you have someone who kills another man in front of a crowd of several thousands (e.g. at a football match) and which is broadcast for millions around the world live.

You didn't say what you would have happen to people like Hitler. :)
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CosmicPathos
10-30-2010, 10:57 AM
they had homosexual relations. But we dont know if the slave was doing it willingly or was being raped.
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Cabdullahi
11-03-2010, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
they had homosexual relations. But we dont know if the slave was doing it willingly or was being raped.
He looked like an african dude....and was abit submissive he could of just knocked out the prince but qadah wa qadr
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sabr*
11-10-2010, 03:22 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Surah Al-A'raf 7:80-81

80. And (remember) Lout (Lot), when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns)?

81. "Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)."
(Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

Surah ASh Shu'ara 26:165-166

165. "Go you in unto the males of the 'Alamin (mankind),

166. "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your wives? Nay, you are a trespassing people!" (Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

Surah Hud 11:77-79

77. And when Our Messengers came to Lout (Lot), he was grieved on their account and felt himself straitened for them (lest the town people should approach them to commit sodomy with them). He said: "This is a distressful day."

78. And his people came rushing towards him, and since aforetime they used to commit crimes (sodomy, etc.), he said: "O my people! Here are my daughters (i.e. the daughters of my nation), they are purer for you (if you marry them lawfully). So fear Allah and degrade me not as regards my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?"

79. They said: "Surely you know that we have neither any desire nor in need of your daughters, and indeed you know well what we want!" (Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Even as we have provided the clear dalil (evidence) regarding the prohibition against homosexuality the tribalism and need to protect the name of a country and tribe prevails. The endless arguements what type of relationship, etc. There is no honor in defending the homosexual prince no matter what country he originates. This has been occurring in the United States and Britian for years he just got caught.

If someone from my own family committed an act that was haram I would condemn them and not dance around the wrong. Shameful!

Surah Al Imran 3:110
110. You [true believers in Islamic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad and his Sunnah (legal ways, etc.)] are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islam has forbidden), and you believe in Allah. And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some who have faith, but most of them are Al-Fasiqun (disobedient to Allah - and rebellious against Allah's Command).
(Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)
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GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In the case of people, questions usually ARE asked, ultimately in the form of a trial. A trial, being ultimately a human activity is subject to error; many murder convictions are overturned. Bit late if the person has been hung or fried, isn't it?
How about in the case where a 21 year old man is wrongly convicted of murder, receives life imprisonment, gets beaten up, mocked or even raped by other prisoners and after 35 years later, due to DNA evidence it was found that he was wrongly convicted of murder? He is going to be 56 years old when he leaves prison. It is not too late here? Unfortunately, some people might still suspect him and probably might be suffering from a mental condition such as depression.
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Trumble
11-12-2010, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
How about in the case where a 21 year old man is wrongly convicted of murder, receives life imprisonment, gets beaten up, mocked or even raped by other prisoners and after 35 years later, due to DNA evidence it was found that he was wrongly convicted of murder? He is going to be 56 years old when he leaves prison. It is not too late here? Unfortunately, some people might still suspect him and probably might be suffering from a mental condition such as depression.
I'm afraid I don't see your point?

Sure, in that unfortunate instance much time has been lost and pain suffered. I see no reason not to take the example to its logical conclusion where the miscarriage of justice is never discovered and the man dies in prison. In either case, though, there is no way of knowing in advance what will happen... only a slight change in circumstances might result in the conviction being overturned in a few years, or even months. But surely you can't be suggesting that it is somehow beneficial to innocent victims of a miscarriage of justice that everyone be executed (and, by logical extension, as soon as possible) as this is preferable to the unpleasantness of the possible alternative?! I can accept that a guilty man, knowing he has no chance of reprieve, might prefer an immediate death to life without parole, but not an innocent one, or at least an innocent one in a sound state of mind (such a hopeless seeming position may well make one depressed and suicidal).
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 10:20 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I'm afraid I don't see your point?
Well let me help you. The outcome of the death penalty and life imprisonment can both be horrible for innocent people. Keep in mind, there are things much worse than death.
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Trumble
11-12-2010, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Well let me help you.
You would do that by responding to my second paragraph? I believe it takes full account of your last response.
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Ansariyah
11-12-2010, 12:28 PM
This fills me wit disgust autho'billah but I'm happy that he committed this crime in a country where he can't buy his freedom with his 'Ayraab moneeey'. However I'm not so pleased with the 20 years, I reckon he shouldve gotten atleast 80 years men like this should never be let out into the world.
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Darth Ultor
11-12-2010, 12:36 PM
Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
You would do that by responding to my second paragraph? I believe it takes full account of your last response.
I was simply presenting an example, how traumatic life imprisonment can be for innocent defendants. : P

You would do that by responding to my second paragraph?
No need to.
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?
the crime happened in London, he was tried and sentenced in London court.
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Pygoscelis
11-12-2010, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
death, unless the family of the murdered/killed forgive the killer.
This right here underscores Trumbles point above. If forgiveness by the family is sufficient to let the man escape the death penalty, then clearly the only reason for it was vengeance and bloodlust. Other reasons may have been detterence (Other people may be less likely to do what he did if he's hanged for it) and possibility of re-offence. But both of those concerns are still there even if the family forgives the man. So as Trumble said, you're left with the base instincts of vengeance and bloodlust and nothing more. That is barbarism indeed.

Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this.
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This right here underscores Trumbles point above. If forgiveness by the family is sufficient to let the man escape the death penalty, then clearly the only reason for it was vengeance and bloodlust.

For you, a punishment for unjust murders maybe few years behind the bar, and you call it civilized.
but for muslims we have guidance from God, and what is more just punishment for unjust murder than death.
So for you the punishment for Hitler or stalin is few years behind the bar, right?


Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this sort of barbarism.
How is your example related to this discussion?
In Islam, the punishment for a crime can only be served after the trial of the crime and sentence by an Islamic court/judge.
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
We should elevate ourselves above this.
A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.
I highly doubt many people would forgive the rapist/murderer. In addition, someone who does something so sick and dangerous, needs to be executed in order to protect society and deter others.

So for you the punishment for Hitler or stalin is few years behind the bar, right?
Personally, I think Hitler and Stalin are just as bad as individuals who have taken one innocent life. Killing one person is bad enough as it is and to kill millions...

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So as Trumble said, you're left with the base instincts of vengeance and bloodlust and nothing more. That is barbarism indeed.
Personally, I don't see it as barbaric.

Now, sprinkle in a little tribal thinking, and you've got those reciprocal murders that hit the news from time to time. One gang kills a member of another, and then the other gang strikes back killing a member of the first gang (who may have had nothing to do with the first killing). We should elevate ourselves above this.
It is not tribalism at all, individuals cannot take the law into their own hands. This should take place through the criminal justice system.

Originally Posted by Boaz
Life? LIFE? If a regular Saudi citizen did this, they'd give him a trial that lasts for one day and then they'll take his head off. Are the Royals above the law?
This event took place in London. The prince is not above the law in the UK. In Saudi Arabia, the Royal Monarchy are considered to be above the law.
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Trumble
11-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.
Why? Nobody has mentioned forgiveness or anybody 'walking free'. There is no logical link between the positions, as is clearly demonstrated in practice in countries that do not have capital punishment.. your hypothetical murderer wouldn't 'walk free' in any of them. Such an individual would spend the rest of their life in jail or a high-security psychiatric hospital (which in this case, frankly, seems more likely).
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Pygoscelis
11-15-2010, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
A hypothetical situation: what would your reaction be if someone rapes your mother, tortured her, till she bled to death, let your father watched it live then tortured and killed him too, before killing the rest of your family, your wife and children.

Let's see how you "elevate" above it.
If you are truly into this "elevate" thing, you should just forgive the murderer/rapist and let him walk free.
No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.
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Asiyah3
11-15-2010, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.
Peace,

Allah, may He be Glorified and Exalted, gave us guidance and sent us a messenger (saas) with clear signs from amongst ourselves.

Please understand that you don't believe in the existence of God. As an Atheist you probably don't know what murder is in reality, in Islam.

Would you cry the same way if Hitler or Stalin were killed for their crimes? In Islam, killing one person is like slaying the whole humankind and saving one person is like saving the whole mankind. Do you think death to the person who caused death to the whole mankind – millions of innocent men, women and children – is vengeance and bloodlust? In a country like Saudi Arabia people – those who commit murder – know well that their punishment will be death for death. They are aware of this and it is their own choice whether to choose death (by murdering an innocent person) or not.

5:32 Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
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Ramadhan
11-16-2010, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No... because there are other reasons other than this bare vengeance and bloodlust you have in mind to keep them locked up or even in some cases to execute them, as I wrote in my previous post. Please go back and re-read it.
But who decide one person is a menace and another is not? Isn't a judge or jury subjective?
What is the line that divide the mere murderer from not so mere murderer that deserves death?
How many lives must they kill in order to deserve death penalty?

What is the definition of bare vengeance and bloodlust anyway?

Also, as I have repeatedly explained to you. For muslims, the punishment for murder is not based on our whims and desires, but based on the law that God SWT has laid for us.
I understand that it is very difficult for you to uderstand that, being an atheist and all?
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Pygoscelis
11-16-2010, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
For muslims, the punishment for murder is not based on our whims and desires,
Originally Posted by naidamar
death, unless the family of the murdered/killed forgive the killer.
These two statements conflict. Which do you actually believe?
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Ramadhan
11-17-2010, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
These two statements conflict. Which do you actually believe?
It does not conflict.

We follow Allah's guidance as told in the Qur'an. By "our whims and desires" meaning we decide on punishment others than what Allah SWT has allowed us.

An example of whims and desires for punishments for murders can be found in the US:
a murderer can receive punishment from walk free, 1 year jail, lifetime jail, death penalty, depending on how good lawyers you can afford. There is no consistency whatsoever, there is no standard. Anything goes.
or a punishment for murderers can result in a whole nation being attacked, invaded, a millions killed and raped. THAT is bloodlust and vengeance.
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GuestFellow
11-17-2010, 01:39 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
It does not conflict.

We follow Allah's guidance as told in the Qur'an. By "our whims and desires" meaning we decide on punishment others than what Allah SWT has allowed us.
:sl:

I agree.

An example of whims and desires for punishments for murders can be found in the US:
a murderer can receive punishment from walk free, 1 year jail, lifetime jail, death penalty, depending on how good lawyers you can afford. There is no consistency whatsoever, there is no standard. Anything goes.
or a punishment for murderers can result in a whole nation being attacked, invaded, a millions killed and raped. THAT is bloodlust and vengeance.
Sorry but I do not understand this post. Can you please explain this again?
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Ramadhan
11-17-2010, 01:56 AM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Sorry but I do not understand this post. Can you please explain this again?
I meant that in the US judicial system, there is no certainty whatsoever over the sentence/punishment for murderer.
The outcome of a murder trial can be so random. It ranges from no punishment to death penalty, depending on the quality of the lawyers, demographic of the jury, etc. And this is a failing to give at least a sense of justice to the victims or to the society.
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