What is a moderate Muslim?

[Thinker]

Hi Group. Long time no post – did you miss me?

After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.

The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims. Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution."

My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?

The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?

If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?

If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?

TIA

Thinker

[Perseveranze]

I don't know what a Moderate Muslim is. I believe that, the way the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) lived, the way the Sahaba's lived, that was true Islam. The teachings of the Prophet, that was how to be a proper Muslim. Overtime, people went astray and now were having all these different labels as "Extremists", "Good", "Moderate", "Bad", "Strict" etc. People argue about the teachings of the Prophet and thus there is a division.

An example is the "Muslim Terrorists". They kill innocents, that is not what the Prophet taught us and for me that is not Islam. This is just an example of how astray people have become towards the true message. People twist his words and the Qurans and try to bring something which is far from the understanding of the message, Muhammed (pbuh) gave to us.

Anyways, I pray one day that the Ummah will be united.

[جوري]

There is no such thing as moderate Muslim vs. Extremist Muslim..
there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, as to how you desire to quantify and qualify is entirely based on your personal opinion.

If there are radical and moderate Muslims, what percentage of the membership here is radical / moderate?

That is just plain funny.. next time your (murse) man-purse is stolen, do yell out stop thief and let me know if the perpetrator responds...


all the best

[FS123]

There is no standard definition how people use it.

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[Ramadhan]

The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims

While that is the feeling of non-muslims (no doubt fuelled and inflamed by media such as fox), the reality is that citizens of muslims world are being attacked by non-muslims.

Do you not agree?
or do I still have to give you numbers?
or do you need time to do more thinking?

[almahdali]

The citizens of muslims world are being attacked by non-muslims.

Good question and posing a new insight. Anyway, i'm quite bored with the statement that non-muslims being attacked by muslim. it's exaggerated worldwide. everybody already knows that -yawn-

[*charisma*]

Before I begin, I'll tell you that I believe the words "radical" and "moderate" were thrown out there in the mix of all this islamophobia propoganda. Thus, any Islamic values or practices that cannot or do not assimiliate in western culture/society is considered to be "extreme" and anything that can be tolerated or be practiced unnoticeably is "moderate." Furthermore any practices or people that were connected to Islam that are not a technically Islamic are also considered "extreme" and anything good connected with a Muslim that is not Islamic is considered to be "moderate."

My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?

In the world of Islam, you're either a Muslim or you're not. If you follow the Quran and Sunnah the way it's meant to be followed, then you're in the fold of Islam. If you don't you're sinning or you're putting yourself in a situation where you're going to push yourself away from all that is Islamic.

For instance, it's an obligation upon us as Muslims to pray 5 times a day. If we want, we can pray extra prayers for whatever reason, but of course we have to be mindful to our 5 obligatory prayers first and make those our priority. If we miss our prayers and don't make them up, if we pray less than 5 prayers, or don't pray at all, then you're sinning and commiting an act of kufr (disbelief) by neglecting your prayers. In a way I guess this would be considered "extreme" on one side of the spectrum. Now if you're praying 24/7/365, then that's also being "extreme" and it may lead you to kufr because it's not the way of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and it may cause apathy inside a person that they just leave it all together one day, or it may make them feel prideful when the purpose of prayer is to feel humility. Finally, if someone is practicing a way which is different, like listening to music while praying, or doing movements and things which are not a part of the sunnah, and justifies it as ok, then he is innovating and that is also forbidden and not a part of Islam.

Islam is about practicing what is prescribed for us to practice. How much to practice, when, where, and how is all ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, not by us as individuals. Whoever goes and does his own thing against what Allah has ordained for us, is not following Islam correctly.

is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?

Depending on the way you'd look at it, I'd say both. Islam preaches peace and cohesion, obviously "Islam" itself means peace, and "ummah" is the Islamic nation of brotherhood and unity, so it definitely promotes peace. However we're all human and expect to be treated as such, if someone or a group is going to opress, humiliate, and belittle our existance, we're supposed to fight them til death if necessary, but there are rules to that of course.

There's some division and there isn't. The division in Islam is obviously the fact that we need to remain our own religion, not allow any cultural infiltration affect our faith, and for us to follow the religion by dressing a certain way or practicing a certain way. In this way I suppose there is a natural division in which people will know this is Islam and it is different and it's people are Muslims and they are different from us. Yet, at the same time we are meant to show kindness and love and allow people to feel welcome around us, to the extent where they could ask sincere questions and not feel that they would offend us, and if they like, to befriend us as well. As humans though, conflict may arise in some instances due to misunderstandings or intolerance and disrespect, I wouldn't say Islam would promote this type of conflict.

If you believe that there is a radical Islam and a moderate Islam and radical Muslims and moderate Muslim; what is a moderate Muslim, what does he/she believe and do differently than the Islamist?

I think I answered that above as well.

[Thinker]

I wonder whether all those using the term radical and moderate Muslim have their own and different profile of what it is a radical etc.!

Bye the by I am interested to know how Muslims define them. From the posts above I formed the view that you think solely in terms of good Muslims and bad Muslims where a good Muslim is defined as someone who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah (and note hadith wasn’t mentioned?) and a bad Muslim is one who does not i.e. the range of how good and how bad is defined by how devout or how lax the Muslim is.

The question that follows is, could the non Muslims world fairly define a person who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah as a radical extremist? Charisma’s eloquent post above describes how Islam promotes both peace and division, cohesion and conflict. I would argue that if you weighed the volume of Islamic teachings preaching conflict and division against that preaching peace and cohesion there would be a lead weight one side and a few feathers the other. I have studied the verses of the Qu’ran and have found non which preach unconditional peace and tolerance, all I have found are a few verses which at best suggest that non Muslims be tolerated, treated with some respect and kept at arms length; that’s a long way from unconditional peace and tolerance.

I watched a debate sometime back. The motion was “Islam is a Religion of Peace”. The motion was defeated when 25% against before the debate rose to 55% after the debate. See http://intelligencesquaredus.org/ind...debates/islam/

Does it not then follow that the person you describe as a good Muslim is the person non Muslims describe as the radical extremist and the person you describe as the bad Muslim is the person is the person non Muslims describe as the moderate?

[جوري]

It does indeed follow-- as such you should qualify and quantify 99% of us on this forum and perhaps the world over as extremists/fundamentalist/fanatical/overzealous Muslims if a percentage point similar to that one you presented is what you were looking for.. Hope that resolves any further queries for you?

have a great day

[*charisma*]

From the posts above I formed the view that you think solely in terms of good Muslims and bad Muslims where a good Muslim is defined as someone who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah (and note hadith wasn’t mentioned?) and a bad Muslim is one who does not i.e. the range of how good and how bad is defined by how devout or how lax the Muslim is.

I actually had one particular hadith in mind while writing, decided not to use it because I didn't want to be redundant, but here it is:

Anas reported that: “Three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet and asked how his worship was. When they were informed, they considered their own worship to be insignificant and said: 'Where are we in comparison to the Prophet when Allaah has forgiven his past and future sins?' One of them said: 'As for me, I shall offer prayer all night long.' Another said: 'I shall observe fasting perpetually, never to break it.' Another said: 'I shall abstain from women and will never marry.' The Prophet then came to them and said: “Are you the people who said such things? I swear By Allaah that I fear Allaah more than you do, and I am most obedient and dutiful among you to Him, but still, I observe fasting (sometimes) and break it (at others); I perform (optional) prayer (at night sometimes) and sleep at night (at others); I also marry. So whoever turns away from my Sunnah (i.e., my way) is not from me.” [Al-Bukhaari & Muslim]

The question that follows is, could the non Muslims world fairly define a person who adheres strictly to the Qu’ran and the sunnah as a radical extremist?

There is nothing stable about the definitions nonMuslims give Muslims. In fact, the majority of nonMuslims can't even define a Muslim because they're simply ignorant. I've had a lot of people mistake me for being Indian Hindu and are baffled by why I don't have a red dot on the middle of my forehead. Many nonMuslims don't pray at all, some take those two minutes before they go to sleep, some only when they're conflicted with a problem, etc. so for them to hear that a Muslim must pray 5 times a day, the reaction is always, "That's too much." Why is it too much? When your soul is not perfect and you sin through out the day and need forgiveness, and when you should thank God for everything He's blessed you with, or when you just need a 5 minutes to remember Him, 5 prayers is honestly nothing, but Allah has made them to be the weight of more than all this earth and all that's in it. When I explain it to them, they fully understand and so many of them have said, "I respect you so much for sticking to your beliefs and practicing the way you do," and others have said, "I wish I could do that, but that'll just take too much out of my day" or something along those lines, so in the end it's their problem, not the religion, and they acknowledge it.

Back to my point, anything that seems to be different or is different from the nonMuslims' practices is going to be viewed differently by different people. There are some Muslims who, due to their ignorance of their own religion, sugarcoat Islam because they are afraid to say "I don't know," and thus they mislead people into having a different concept of Islam. I do feel that the more nonMuslims are exposed to Islam through questioning, the more they grow interested in it and the more they are able to tolerate it or even grow to love it.

Charisma’s eloquent post above describes how Islam promotes both peace and division, cohesion and conflict. I would argue that if you weighed the volume of Islamic teachings preaching conflict and division against that preaching peace and cohesion there would be a lead weight one side and a few feathers the other. I have studied the verses of the Qu’ran and have found non which preach unconditional peace and tolerance, all I have found are a few verses which at best suggest that non Muslims be tolerated, treated with some respect and kept at arms length; that’s a long way from unconditional peace and tolerance.

Post up the verses you've studied, let's see. You too should provide proof of your work, can't always expect us Muslims to do it for you ;)

One thing I don't understand is why do nonMuslims only study the Quran when Islam is Quran & Sunnah? Our practices come mostly from Sunnah, not the Quran.

Does it not then follow that the person you describe as a good Muslim is the person non Muslims describe as the radical extremist and the person you describe as the bad Muslim is the person is the person non Muslims describe as the moderate?

Through my perspective, it's not to which the degree the Muslim practices, it's honestly the degree to which the viewer is knowledgable about Islam. Whether I prayed once or 50x a day and made it a religious obligation, to one person it may be more radical than to another simply by the degree in which they themselves practice or understand. Therefore, I cannot generalize because I've met some different nonMuslims who's thoughts quite differed. There are whites who are still very much racist, so no matter what shade of "dark" someone is, they'll still dislike them because they have been conditioned to do so, or because they isolate themselves in a white community where everyone else is an outsider and does not belong, even if they talked, ate, slept in the same exact manner that they do. In the same way I suppose, that's how Muslims are viewed by those types of close-minded individuals.

The video looks interesting, will check it more later.

[جوري]

Post up the verses you've studied, let's see. You too should provide proof of your work, can't always expect us Muslims to do it for you ;)

You are not satisfied with his personal testimony and link?
I rather think we should give him exactly what he wants and feed it to him to absolute satisfaction, as he seems to be seeking out one particular answer anyway..

certainly fidelity and the sublime nature is a secret that God puts only in his faithful servants.

:w:

[*charisma*]

You are not satisfied with his personal testimony and link?
I rather think we should give him exactly what he wants and feed it to him to absolute satisfaction, as he seems to be seeking out one particular answer anyway..

certainly fidelity and the sublime nature is a secret that God puts only in his faithful servants.

:w:

\

Haha, no of course not, I have to be fair :D

I'll tell you this much, when I post up anything, I realize that there will be more than one reader, not just him. Therefore, whatever his intentions are don't really matter to me, if one person cannot learn from what is said, someone else will.

So far the link he showed is actually interesting.

[جوري]

I'll tell you this much, when I post up anything, I realize that there will be more than one reader, not just him. Therefore, whatever his intentions are don't really matter to me, if one person cannot learn from what is said, someone else will.

Fair enough.. I don't have the time nor am I amused by prolonged and refractory condescension and willful ignorance.

Have you gone over any constitution? Do you know any country in the world that doesn't per its constitutional rights have an army, a navy and air force etc.?
Yet they seek to deprive Muslims of their rights and slap labels on them..

Islam is a complete way of life, governance, finance, social structure, beliefs, inheritance, jurisprudence. A complete religion, a religion that is truly from God should not be some relic visited three times a year and on sunday. It is a complete system.. a system that will include war and treaties, and economics and politics.

Here you have a guy who decided that he read and in his two weeks of grazing he knows all about Islam, all about the Quran, and has the nerve to come here with utmost insolence and temerity to teach us Muslims how it is.

I personally lost interest back in 2008.. I think encroaching upon three years is ample time to catch if but a small distillate of the subject or simply get out and live in that hateful bubble and fill it with the same ole until it bursts upon its creator!

:w:

[Cabdullahi]

Moderate Islam = no Salah.....no Shariah.....no modesty......

Moderate Islam = A diluted form of Islam

[serena77]

i'm gonna give my opinion... but ... while i'm a non muslim westerner... i don't ... and have never shared western media's view on islam.
I look at moderate islam much the way i look at mainstream christianity. they do follow what they should as the tenents or pillars... but they don't take it to such an extreme that nothing else is accepted. for example.. my grandmother (may she rest in peace) was a primative baptist. She believed the bible to be literal. She went to churches that did the whole snake handling tent revivals talking in tongues..etc. i do not doubt her faith... or the faith of anyone else who falls under the extremist/fundamental ways.

For me.... i would say I'm a moderate christian... or was.... I did what i was supposed to... i volunteered at my parish so much i was there more than our priest was.... but I followed what i was supposed to do... and did so happily ( i say.. or was as i'm studying to determine whether or not i should revert... )

I think the same would be the truth in other religions other than just baptists or catholics.

Salaam to all
Serena

[جوري]

I disagree with that-- Jesus (p) didn't hang around long enough to complete and lead aright the lost sheep of Israel and establish their law in the land, as a result christianity rather than enforcing the OT laws became this monolithic religion and adapted to pagan practices and rituals and eventually was shelved as a spiritual thing rather than a complete way of life.. Only Judaism and Islam are both religion and law.. of course the Jews though they have their alleged 'Jewish state' also don't follow Jewish laws and substituted for secular ones like their Muslim counterparts they have to implement God's law but at least the secular system they adopted is a better one for no seats are bequeathed to kings.

The west merely wants to separate the Quran from the Sunnah and delete half of the Quran leaving it to the Makkan suras that deal with spirituality and not much to do with governance etc. They do that every which way, smear campaigns, images played over and over, on the web, on the media, in the midst of Muslims, casting doubt upon the scholars trying divisions here and there, bombing places and blaming it on partisan divide to provoke civil wars amongst those who have lived side by side for millenniums
read for instance:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...aq-475889.html

keeping prodigal kings on a leash while instigating war in every other Muslim region. Are they successful at it? well you merely need to look at folks like our well learned and deeply thoughtful ''Thinker' to draw your own conclusion.. They brreed ''Thinkers'' a dime a dozen!

But I tell you in spite of all of that the majority of Muslims are extremely well educated, and quite familiar with what is going on as well the Quran, so to all those efforts I'll quote the noble Quran:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا يُنْفِقُونَ أَمْوَالَهُمْ لِيَصُدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ فَسَيُنْفِقُونَهَا ثُمَّ تَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ حَسْرَةً ثُمَّ يُغْلَبُونَ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَىٰ جَهَنَّمَ يُحْشَرُونَ {36}
[Pickthal 8:36] Lo! those who disbelieve spend their wealth in order that they may debar (men) from the way of Allah. They will spend it, then it will become an anguish for them, then they will be conquered. And those who disbelieve will be gathered unto hell,



Who are they truly at war with? a few Muslims that they are trying to separate and conquer or God's divine promise?

all the best

[Thinker]

Post up the verses you've studied, let's see. You too should provide proof of your work, can't always expect us Muslims to do it for you ;)

I can and if you insist I will post hundreds of verses of the Qu’ran that promote conflict and division. I am not rushing to do that because I presume that the members of this forum, being Muslims who actively pursue Islam, know of their existence. And I know from experience that such a post will get a rough ride here. Most Muslims (and Christians etc) are instructed in their religion from childhood and beyond. I came to study Islam from absolute ground zero, with no bias, no presupposition, no steer or guidance from someone with bias and no fear of God. The Qu’ran was constructed at a time when Muslims fought with non Muslims and if read objectively is clearly heavily weighted in terms of Muslims must mistrust, not associated with and fight against non Muslims. I started my studies looking for the ‘love thy neighbour’ verses and I never found them! Maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough – do they exist?

[Muhaba]

^dont take them out of context though. Also, you'll want to post their historical background which shows for what type of circumstances they were revealed. You can't just take some verses of the Quran and interpret or use them the way you want. You have to look at commentary and the manner in which the Prophet (SAW) applied those verses and in what sort of circumstances they were applied.

[Thinker]

[QUOTE] Here you have a guy who decided that he read and in his two weeks of grazing he knows all about Islam, all about the Quran, and has the nerve to come here with utmost insolence and temerity to teach us Muslims how it is.[QUOTE]

I don’t understand why Muslims think that only Muslims can know anything about Islam particularly when to become a Muslim no knowledge is required and no test is taken. I know more about Islam that I do about Christianity because although I was raised by Vhristiann parents and went to a Christian school I have never studied Christianity; I have never read the Bible. I suspect that most Muslims have never studied Islam, like me they will have been taught at school and accepted what they were taught as fact. I know there is lots I don’t know but I also know that I know more about Islam than most Muslims; why because I have studied it but more importantly I have studied it objectively and without the freat that God will send me to hell for questioning "His word."

[Muhaba]

Thinker, why don't u read Quran with commentary and then see whether you still have complaints. Don't ask why youmust read commentary, since God sent the Prophet (SAW) to show us how to follow the Quran. God didn't just send the Quran. And to understand the Quran you need to read commentary.

[Thinker]

^dont take them out of context though. Also, you'll want to post their historical background which shows for what type of circumstances they were revealed. You can't just take some verses of the Quran and interpret or use them the way you want. You have to look at commentary and the manner in which the Prophet (SAW) applied those verses and in what sort of circumstances they were applied.

I really don’t want to post hundreds of verses promoting conflict hate and division.

Context - that is exactly the point, the context is that these verses were written at a time when different tribes fought, killed and took slaves of their enemies who were the other tribes. And the context is that at a point in time it went from tribe A fighting tribe B and C etc to Muslims fighting non Muslims. That is the context of the Qu’ran, although it is purported to be God’s word and final word for all mankind forever, it is totally preoccupied with the conditions of that time and that was Muslim fighting against, killing and being killed by non Muslims; that is fact and it comes through clearly in the sentiment of the Qu’ran. Surely nobody would argue otherwise?

[*charisma*]

I can and if you insist I will post hundreds of verses of the Qu’ran that promote conflict and division. I am not rushing to do that because I presume that the members of this forum, being Muslims who actively pursue Islam, know of their existence. And I know from experience that such a post will get a rough ride here. Most Muslims (and Christians etc) are instructed in their religion from childhood and beyond. I came to study Islam from absolute ground zero, with no bias, no presupposition, no steer or guidance from someone with bias and no fear of God. The Qu’ran was constructed at a time when Muslims fought with non Muslims and if read objectively is clearly heavily weighted in terms of Muslims must mistrust, not associated with and fight against non Muslims. I started my studies looking for the ‘love thy neighbour’ verses and I never found them! Maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough – do they exist?

Cool, we're on the same boat then I guess concerning how you came around to studying Islam and in the manner that you did. I still would like for you to post the ayahs just to visualize where you're coming from. Yes, I am aware of some of the most infamous ayahs that are used, but I would like to see the hundreds. Also, maybe you should search a little harder for those "love thy neighbor" ayahs you are searching for because they do indeed exist, even if you don't find the exact wording you want, then at least search for something as close to that ideology as possible, that part should not be too hard. (: I know there's more to it than just finding them though, you nonMuslims don't let go that easily :D.

I'll say this again, however, Islam is not just Quran, it's also Sunnah. So for you to study Islam as a whole, you can't neglect that aspect of Islam, otherwise you're really not studying Islam.

[IAmZamzam]

"Radical" and "moderate" Islam are terms that the West has invented to distinguish true Islam from politically influenced, against-the-scriptures, twisted "Islam" like the terrorists practice. Although really, at least as often it seems to serve as a euphemistic-sounding apparently false distinction so that anti-Islamic bigots like Geert Wilders can make quotable sound bytes with the statement, "There is no 'moderate' Islam." Not to mention that putting true Islam the "moderate" kind can subtly backhand it while allegedly acting against the demonization of our religion, since the automatic implication is that taking Islam to its natural extreme produces wickedness and madness. If I were you I'd avoid the terms altogether and just make corrections to what is Islamic and what isn't when necessary.

P.S. right here

[Thinker]

I still would like for you to post the ayahs just to visualize where you're coming from.

I get them together, hopefully tomorrow, and send them to you privately. If you then still want them published here I’ll do that.

I'll say this again, however, Islam is not just Quran, it's also Sunnah. So for you to study Islam as a whole, you can't neglect that aspect of Islam, otherwise you're really not studying Islam.

Indeed it is and the hadith, but it is only the Qu’ran that is the word of God; only the Qu’ran that is God’s immutable message; only the Qu’ran which MUST be obeyed all the rest is arguable. In fact in my opinion (and my opinion has changed several times over the past few years) I think I could make an argument that the sunnah is a form of idol worship which contravenes the Qu’ran

[جوري]

I don’t understand why Muslims think that only Muslims can know anything about Islam particularly when to become a Muslim no knowledge is required and no test is taken. I know more about Islam that I do about Christianity because although I was raised by Vhristiann parents and went to a Christian school I have never studied Christianity; I have never read the Bible. I suspect that most Muslims have never studied Islam, like me they will have been taught at school and accepted what they were taught as fact. I know there is lots I don’t know but I also know that I know more about Islam than most Muslims; why because I have studied it but more importantly I have studied it objectively and without the freat that God will send me to hell for questioning "His word."

I don't know why doctors think you have to go to medical school and get licensed to practice medicine? So many quacks read about medicine in books and know more about it than herbalism. You don't require any knowledge to enter into medical school and no licensure exam is then given (true). I suspect that most doctors have never studied medicine, like most quacks they'll have accepted what they were taught as a fact. Quacks know alot and they also know about Medicine more than most doctors, why because they have studied quackery, but more importantly studied objectively outside of academia, without fear that someone will take away that license!

all the best

[جوري]

I get them together, hopefully tomorrow, and send them to you privately. If you then still want them published here I’ll do that.

most if not all of us have read the Quran and some of us have memorized and continue to memorize it, there is nothing in the Quran that should or is to be hidden.. Don't be Pming sisters in private if you have a noble character or you too much of a coward to bring your 'studies' for everyone to judge just how 'studied' you actually are?

Everything the prophet taught whether the divine word of God or that, which he spoke in layman's word is divinely inspired, Who are you at all in the scheme of anything to decide that sunna is a form of 'idol worship' or contravenes with the Quran?

Why don't you simply stop all that hot air and put your money where your mouth is? There is no point in two pages worth of spam for the rest of us to try to decipher as we may to the 'genius' that hovers in your 'objective' head!

all the best

[*charisma*]

I get them together, hopefully tomorrow, and send them to you privately. If you then still want them published here I’ll do that.

That sounds good to me.

Indeed it is and the hadith, but it is only the Qu’ran that is the word of God; only the Qu’ran that is God’s immutable message; only the Qu’ran which MUST be obeyed all the rest is arguable. In fact in my opinion (and my opinion has changed several times over the past few years) I think I could make an argument that the sunnah is a form of idol worship which contravenes the Qu’ran

Everything can be made an argument out of, every little intricate detail, and I adulate if you sincerely look into those for educational purposes because there's nothing wrong with questioning all that's around you as long as you're intentions are to gain an understanding. I, however, don't know what your intentions are, but either way I'm still going to answer because I'll be learning from you whilst teaching myself.

With that, through your point of view and many others I'm sure, just as you said hadith can be questioned, then in the same way Quran can be as well, and just as you said sunnah can be interpreted as being a form of idol worship (I have no idea how but feel free to shed some light on the matter), then I guess you could also say or believe that Quran is not from God at all, which you probably already do, I don't know. So I'm still wondering, why Quran and not Hadith? There are ahadith which must be obeyed in the same respect that the ayahs of the Quran have to be obeyed. I understand the frustration/confusion that undivine human beings are what recorded the ahadith, and that after the death of Muhammad (peace be upon him) conflicting matters arised, and that the Quran is the only scripture in which we consider to be Holy and divine so the way you see it is that the Quran must or should weigh significantly more to us than ahadith, which it does, but Islamically they are both needed and one does not outlaw the other. If this were just about Allah only, then He would've made it so, but He gave us a prophet for a purpose. But all of this is besides the point, the point is that if you're going to study Islam, you can't just pick and choose parts of it, you have to learn it as a whole, otherwise it's just not Islam.

[Woodrow]

I can and if you insist I will post hundreds of verses of the Qu’ran that promote conflict and division. I am not rushing to do that because I presume that the members of this forum, being Muslims who actively pursue Islam, know of their existence. And I know from experience that such a post will get a rough ride here. Most Muslims (and Christians etc) are instructed in their religion from childhood and beyond. I came to study Islam from absolute ground zero, with no bias, no presupposition, no steer or guidance from someone with bias and no fear of God. The Qu’ran was constructed at a time when Muslims fought with non Muslims and if read objectively is clearly heavily weighted in terms of Muslims must mistrust, not associated with and fight against non Muslims. I started my studies looking for the ‘love thy neighbour’ verses and I never found them! Maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough – do they exist?

'
I see how you as a non-Muslim would see many ayyats in the Qur'an as promoting division and distrust. Yes, we are cautioned many times about the errors of non-Muslims and not to adopt their ways. In similar type writings non-Muslims give virtually the same message about themselves. The simple fact is when there is disagreement about beliefs and non-beliefs, each group does appear to be isolationists in regards to all other people. This is not necessarily a bad thing and can/should be done with as much peace as possible. Because a person disagrees with another, should not be equated as aggression.

[Muhaba]

I really don’t want to post hundreds of verses promoting conflict hate and division.

Context - that is exactly the point, the context is that these verses were written at a time when different tribes fought, killed and took slaves of their enemies who were the other tribes. And the context is that at a point in time it went from tribe A fighting tribe B and C etc to Muslims fighting non Muslims. That is the context of the Qu’ran, although it is purported to be God’s word and final word for all mankind forever, it is totally preoccupied with the conditions of that time and that was Muslim fighting against, killing and being killed by non Muslims; that is fact and it comes through clearly in the sentiment of the Qu’ran. Surely nobody would argue otherwise?

They were revealed at a particular time and for certain circumstances, but it is amazing how the verses of the Quran can be applied at all times, which only proves that it is the Word of God.

I started my studies looking for the ‘love thy neighbour’ verses and I never found them! Maybe I wasn’t looking hard enough – do they exist?

There is the "sahibul janb" verse which i believe means your neighbor and travelling companion, but I don't remember exactly where that verse is.

Indeed it is and the hadith, but it is only the Qu’ran that is the word of God; only the Qu’ran that is God’s immutable message; only the Qu’ran which MUST be obeyed all the rest is arguable. In fact in my opinion (and my opinion has changed several times over the past few years) I think I could make an argument that the sunnah is a form of idol worship which contravenes the Qu’ran

Sunnah and Hadith are also from God, although they are't the direct Word of God. God says in the Quran, Chapter Al-Najm verses 1 - 5 that whatever the Prophet (SAW) says is from God:

1. By the star when it goes down
2. Your companion is neither astray nor being mislead
3. Nor does he say (anything) of his own desire
4. It is no less than a revelation sent down to him
5. He was taught by one Mighty in power.

Additionally in many places of the Quraan, God tells us to obey God and the Prophet (SAW). Also, in chapter 34, verse 28, God says that He sent the Prophet (SAW) sufficient for us.

[جوري]

beautiful ahadiths that the learned one perhaps has either ignored or would love for us to divorce all together so that his 'objective' understanding would have some credence!

.. "What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured." (Bukhari)

"Religion is very easy and whoever overburdens himself in his religion will not be able to continue in that way. So you should not be extremists, but try to be near to perfection and receive the good tidings that you will be rewarded." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 38

"It is better for a leader to make a mistake in forgiving than to make a mistake in punishing." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1011

" '...what is the best type of Jihad [struggle].' He answered: 'Speaking truth before a tyrannical ruler.' " Riyadh us-Saleheen Volume 1:195

"...you should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm." Riyadh-us-Saleheen. Hadith 602.

"Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day (of Judgment) should not harm his neighbor. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet." Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 47.

"(Each one) of you should save himself from the fire by giving even half of a date (in charity). And if you do not find a half date, then (by saying) a pleasant word (to your brethren)." Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Hadith 394.

"It is better for any of you to carry a load of firewood on his own back than begging from someone else." Riyadh-Us-Saleheen, Chapter 59, hadith 540

"In the name of God, I put my trust in God. O God, I seek refuge in Thee lest I stray or be led astray or cause injustice or suffer injustice or do wrong or have wrong done to me!" Fiqh-us-Sunnah, Volume 2, Number 67b.

"Righteousness is good morality, and wrongdoing is that which wavers in your soul and which you dislike people finding out about." An-Nawawi's "Forty Hadith," Hadith 27.

"Do not turn away a poor man...even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you...God will bring you near Him on the Day of Resurrection." Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 1376.

"Avoid cruelty and injustice...and guard yourselves against miserliness, for this has ruined nations who lived before you." Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Hadith 203.

"Seven kinds of people will be sheltered under the shade of God on the Day of Judgment...They are: a just ruler, a young man who passed his youth in the worship and service of God...one whose heart is attached to the mosque...two people who love each other for the sake of God...a man who is invited to sin...but declines, saying 'I fear God'...one who spends his charity in secret, without making a show...and one who remembers God in solitude so that his eyes overflow." Riyadh-us-Salaheen, Hadith 376.

1.. "Acquire knowledge, it enables its professor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armour against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))

2.. "A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity." (Muslim)

3.. "There is a polish for everything that takes away rust; and the polish for the heart is the remembrance of Allah." (Bukhari)

5.. "The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)

6.. "If you put your whole trust in Allah, as you ought, He most certainly will satisfy your needs, as He satisfies those of the birds. They come out hungry in the morning, but return full to their nests." (Tirmidhi)

7.. "When Allah created his creatures He wrote above His throne: 'Verily, my Compassion overcomes my wrath." (Bukhari & Muslim)

8.. "Allah will not give mercy to anyone, except those who give mercy to other creatures." (Abdullah b. Amr: Abu Daud & Tirmidhi)

9.. " 'Son, if you are able, keep your heart from morning till night and from night till morning free from malice towards anyone.' Then the Prophet said: 'O my son! This is one of my laws, and he, who loves my laws verily loves me.' " (Bukhari)

10.. "Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people." (Baihaqi)

11.. "Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith." (Muslim)

12.. "When you see a person who has been given more than you in money and beauty, look to those, who have been given less." (Muslim)

13.. "If you do not feel ashamed of anything, then you can do whatever you like." (Abu-Masud: Bukhari)

14.. "O Lord, grant me your love, grant me that I love those who love you; grant me, that I might do the deeds that win your love. Make your love dearer to me than the love of myself, my family and wealth." (Tirmidhi)

15.. "It is better to sit alone than in company with the bad; and it is better still to sit with the good than alone. It is better to speak to a seeker of knowledge than to remain silent; but silence is better than idle words." (Bukhari)

16.. "Verily, a man teaching his child manners is better than giving one bushel of grain in alms." (Muslim)

17.. "Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He Who is in heaven will show mercy on you."(Abu Daud: Tirmidhi)

18.. "It is difficult for a man laden with riches to climb the steep path, that leads to bliss." (Muslim)

19.. "Once a man, who was passing through a road, found a branch of a tree with torns obstructing it. The man removed the thorns from the way. Allah thanked him and forgave his sins." (Bukhari)

20.. "Who are the learned? Those who practice what they know." (Bukhari)

21.. "Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another." (Iyad b. Hinar al-Mujashi: Muslim)

22.. "Who is the most favoured of Allah? He, from whom the greatest good comes to His creatures." (Bukhari)

23.. "A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity." (Muslim)

24.. "A Muslim who meets with others and shares their burdens is better than one who lives a life of seclusion and contemplation." (Muslim)

25.. "Serve Allah, as you would if you could see Him; although you cannot see Him, He can see you. (Umar: Muslim)

26.. "Allah does not look at your appearance or your possessions; but He looks at your heart and your deeds." (Abu Huraira: Muslim)

27.. "The best richness is the richness of the soul." (at the field ofTabuk, Syria, Rajab 9 A.H.: Bukhari)

28.. "Keep yourselves far from envy; because it eats up and takes away good actions, like a fire eats up and burns wood." (Abu Daud)

29.. "Much silence and a good disposition, there are no two things better than these." (Bukhari)

30.. "Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh." (Muslim)

31.. "Whoever loves to meet Allah, Allah loves to meet him." (Bukhari)

32.. "Once the Prophet was asked:'Tell us, which action is dearest to Allah?' He answered:'To say your prayer at its proper time.' Again he was asked: 'What comes next?' Mohammed said: 'To show kindness to parents.' 'Then what?' he was asked, 'To strive for the cause of Allah!' " (Ibn Masad: Bukhari)

33.. "When two persons are together, two of them must no whisper to each other, without letting the third hear; because it would hurt him." (Bukhari & Muslim)

34.. "Verily, it is one of the respects to Allah to honor an old man." (Bukhari)

35.. "All Muslims are like a foundation, each strengthening the other; in such a way they do support each other." (Abu Musa: Bukhari & Muslim)

36.. "Strive always to excel in virtue and truth." (Bukhari)

37.. "You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another." (Muslim)

38.. "He, who wishes to enter paradise at the best gate, must please his father and mother." (Bukhari & Muslim)

39.. "I am leaving two things among you, and if you cling to them firmly you will never go astray; one is the Book of Allah and the other is my way of life." (Farewell Pilgrimage: Muatta)

40.. "Allah is One and likes Unity." (Muslim)

41.. "The best of alms is that, which the right hand gives and the left hand knows not of." (Bukhari)

42.. "The perfect Muslim is not a perfect Muslim, who eats till he is full and leaves his neighbors hungry." (Ibn Abbas: Baihaqi)

43.. "He is not of us who is not affectionate to the little ones, and does not respect the old; and he is not of us, who does not order which is lawful, and prohibits that which is unlawful." (Ibn Abbas: Tirmidhi)

44.. "No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself." (Abu Hamza Anas: Bukhari & Muslim)

45.. "To strive for the cause of Allah from daybreak to noon and sunset is better than the goods and enjoyment of the whole worldly life." (Bukhari)

46.. "Be not like the hypocrite who, when he talks, tells lies; when he gives a promise, he breaks it; and when he is trusted, he proves dishonest." (Bukhari & Muslim)

47.. "The proof of a Muslim's sincerity is, that he pays no heed to that, which is not his business." (Abu Hureira: Tirmidhi)

48.. "Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." (Muslims & Bukhari)

49.. "Conduct yourself in this world, as if you are here to stay forever; prepare for eternity as if you have to die tomorrow." (Bukhari)

50.. "The worldly comforts are not for me. I am like a traveller, who takes a rest under a tree in the shade and then goes on his way." (Tirmidhi)

Ahâdîth

The Prophet [peace be upon him]

1. The Prophet said: 'I am the Prophet of mercy and I am the Prophet of repentance. (Shamâ'il At-Tirmidhî, Musnad Ahmad)
2. The Prophet said: 'The likeness of me and the Prophets before me is that of a man who built a house which he made all complete and beautiful except for one brick in a corner. People visited and admired it but said: ‘Shouldn’t that brick be put in?’ I am that brick and I am the last of the prophets.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
3. The Prophet said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)
4. Ali ibn Abî Tâlib said: 'Anyone who saw him suddenly would stand in awe of him, and anyone who got to know him through spending time with him came to love him. Those who described him said that they had never seen anyone like him, before or since.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
5. 'Â'ishah said: 'The Prophet spoke in a simple and clear way so that all those who heard him, understood him'. (Sunan Abî Dawûd)
6. Anas ibn Mâlik said: 'I was in the Prophet's service for ten years, and he never once said "Uff (i.e. shame)!" to me. When I did something (wrong) he never asked me, "Why did you do that?" When I did not do something (that I should have done) he never asked me, "Why did you not do that?" The Messenger of Allah had the best disposition of all people'. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
7. Abdullah ibn Ja'far said: 'Whenever Allah's Messenger came back from a journey, the children of his family used to (run to) welcome him. This was how he once came back from a journey when I was the first to go to him: he mounted me (on his camel) in front of him. Then one of his daughter Fatimah's two sons came, and he mounted him behind him, and that is how the three of us were brought into Madinah on a single mount. (Sahîh Muslim)
8. Ka'b ibn Mâlik reported: 'When the Messenger of Allah was pleased, his face lit up as if it was a piece of the moon. That is how we could tell when he was pleased.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Musnad Ahmad)
9. Abdullah ibn Al-Hârith said: 'I never saw anyone who smiled more than Allah's Messenger'. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
10. Â'ishah said: 'The Prophet never hit anything or anyone - not a woman or a slave - except when he was fighting in the cause of Allah'. (Sahîh Muslim)
11. Jâbir said: 'Allah's Messenger never said no when anyone asked him for anything at all' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
12. The Prophet said: 'None of you (truly) believes until I am dearer to him than his own parents, his children and all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
13. The Prophet said: 'Whoever asks Allah to bless me once will be blessed by Allah ten times over' (Sahîh Muslim)
14. The Prophet said: 'Whoever loves my way of life (Sunnah) loves me, and whoever loves me will be with me in Paradise.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

Fundamentals

1. The Prophet said: 'Actions will be judged according to their intentions.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
2. The Prophet said: 'The religion (of Islam) is easy. No one ever made it difficult without it becoming too much for him. So avoid extremes and strike a balance, do the best you can and be cheerful, and seek Allah's help (through prayer) in the morning, and evening, and part of the night.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
3. The Prophet said: 'The similitude of the one who contemplates his Lord versus the one who does not is that of the living versus the dead.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
4. Abu Umamah related: 'A man once asked Allah's Messenger, 'What is faith?' He replied, 'When your good deeds make you happy and your bad deeds make you sad, then you have faith.' Then the man asked him, 'What is sin?' THe Prophet replied, 'When anything troubles your conscience, stop doing it'.' (Musnad Ahmad)
5. The Prophet said: ''Whoever has three qualities will taste the sweetness of faith: To love Allah and His Messenger more than anything else; to love someone for Allah's sake alone, and to hate to return to unbelief just as much as one would hate to be thrown into fire'. (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)
6. The Prophet said: 'The burden of proof is upon the plaintiff and the taking of oath is upon the defendant.' (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)
7. The Prophet was asked about the major sins, and he mentioned: 'To worship other than Allah, to disobey your parents, to commit murder and to give false testimony'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)
8. The Prophet said: 'Allah will send humiliation upon you and will not remove it until you return to your religion.' (Sunan Abi Dawûd)
9. The Prophet said: 'If one of you had a stream running at his door and he bathed in it five times every day, do you think any dirt would be left on him?' His companions answered, 'No dirt at all would be left on him.' He said, 'That is what the five prayers are like, with which Allah washes away your sins.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
10. The Prophet said: 'A person's wealth will never decrease from giving in charity. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
11. The Prophet said: 'No creature should be obeyed if it entails disobedience to the Creator.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sharh As-Sunnah Al-Baghawî)

Knowledge

1. The Prophet said: 'The best among you are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
   
2. The Prophet said: 'Seeking knowledge is a religious obligation for every Muslim (male and female).' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)
3. The Prophet said: 'The cure for ignorance is to question.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)
4. The Prophet said: 'Whomsoever Allah wishes goodness for, He grants him understanding of the religion.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
5. The Prophet said: 'Acquire knowledge, and teach it to people; learn your religious obligations and teach them to people; learn the Qur'an and teach it to people.' (Sunan Ad-Dârimî)
6. The Prophet said: 'The superiority of a religious scholar an (ignorant) worshipper is like that of myself over you (my followers). Truly, Allah, His angels and all those in the heavens and the earth - even the ants in their anthills and the fish - invoke blessings on those who instruct others in anything good.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
7. The Prophet said: 'Allah will not take away (religious) knowledge by removing it from people's hearts, but He will take it away by the the death of scholars, until, when no (true) scholars remain, people will take the ignorant (among them) as their leaders. When they are consulted, they will give their verdicts without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead people astray.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
8. The Prophet said: 'From the signs of the hour is that people will seek knowledge from the asâghir [small ones]. (Al-Lâlikâ'î in Sharh Usûl-I'tiqâd).
9. The Prophet said: 'Whoever seeks sacred knowledge to vie with scholars, argue with fools, or capture public notice, Allah will enter him into Hellfire.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
10. The Prophet said: 'Whoever seeks that knowledge by which the pleasure of Allah is sought [sacred knowledge] only to acquire some worldly gain, he will not smell the fragance of Paradise on Judgement Day.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Musnad Ahmad)
    

Character, Etiquettes and Morals

1. The Prophet said: 'Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character (Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik)
2. The Prophet said: 'There is nothing which is heavier upon the balance than the good character.' (Musnad Ahmad)
3. The Prophet said: 'Righteousness is good character, and sin is what makes you uncomfortable inside and you would not like other people to find out about.' (Sahîh Muslim)
4. The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
5. The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)
6. The Prophet said: 'Indeed Allah is gentle and loves gentleness, and gives due to gentleness that which He does not give to harshness.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
7. The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
8. The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
9. The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
10. The Prophet said: 'Purity and cleanliness is part of faith. (Sahîh Muslim)
11. The Prophet said: 'By Allah, he is not a believer! By Allah, he is not a believer! By Allah, he is not a believer!' He was asked, 'Who, O Messenger of Allah?' He replied, 'Anyone whose neighbor does not feel safe from his harm.' (Musnad Ahmad)
12. The Prophet said: 'There is no better gift a parent can give his child than good manners'. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
13. The Prophet said: 'No one can give a better or more abundant gift than patience.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
14. The Prophet said: 'Calmness and determination is from Allah and haste is from Satan.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
15. The Prophet said: 'Wealth does not come from having great riches; (true) wealth is contentment of the soul.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
16. The Prophet said: 'Whoever does not thank people (for their favors) has not thanked Allah (properly), Mighty and Glorious is He!' (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
17. The Prophet said: 'The believer is one who is sociable [with others], and there is no benefit in one who is not sociable [with others] nor in one who is not met sociably [by them].' (Mustadarak Al-Hâkim, Shu'ab al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)
18. The Prophet said: 'Do not search for (the faults of others), for if anyone searches for (others) faults, God will search for his.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd)
19. The Prophet said: 'Blessed is he who preoccupies himself with his own defects, rather than those of others.' (Musnad Al-Bazzâr)
20. The Prophet said: 'The believer is not the one who eats his fill when the neighbour beside him is hungry.' (Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)
21. The Prophet said: 'Make things easy (for people) and do not make them difficult, and cheer people up and do not drive them away.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
22. The Prophet said: 'The food of two people is enough for three, and the food of three people is enough for four.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
23. The Prophet said: 'Eat together and do not separate, for the blessing is in companionship. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
24. The Prophet said: 'Modesty is part of faith.' (Sahîh Muslim)
25. The Prophet said: 'There are two blessings that many people fail to make the most of: good health and free time.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
26. The Prophet said: 'He who does not keep his trusts lacks in faith and he who does not keep his agreements lacks in religion'. (Shu'ab Al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)
27. The Prophet said: 'None of you is truly a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself.' (Sahîh Muslim)
28. The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his own family, and I am the best of you towards my family.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
29. The Prophet said: 'He is not one of us who does not show mercy to our little ones and respect to our elders.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
30. The Prophet said: 'Contemplate those who have less than you and not those who have more than you, lest you belittle the favors of Allah conferred upon you'. (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
31. Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his companions remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim, Sunan An-Nasâ'î)
32. The Prophet said: 'Seeking knowledge is a religious obligation for every Muslim (male or female). (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan Al-Bayhaqî)
33. The Prophet said: 'A truthful and trustworthy merchant will be in the company of the prophets, the very truthful, and the martyrs.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sunan Ad-Dâraqutnî)
34. The Prophet said: 'On a journey, the leader of the group is their servant.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Shu'ab Al-Îmân Al-Bayhaqî)
35. The Prophet said: 'The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
36. A disbelieving Bedouin urinated in the mosque, and the people rushed to beat him. Allah's Apostle ordered them to leave him alone, let him finish and pour water over the place where he has passed urine. The Prophet then explained to the Bedouin calmly, "This is a place of worship, in it is the worship of God and the reading of Qur'an." After the Bedouin had left, the Prophet then said to his companions, " You have been sent to make things easy (for the people) and you have not been sent to make things difficult for them." (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
37. The Prophet said: 'Allah is beautiful and loves beauty.' (Sahîh Muslim)
38. The Prophet said: 'There is no clement person who has not stumbled, nor is there no wise person who possesses no experience.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)
39. The Prophet said: 'Pay the laborer his due before his sweat dries.' (Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
40. The Prophet said: 'A believer is not stung from the same hole twice.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
41. The Prophet said: 'The wise one is he who has subdued his nafs and has prepared for what follows death. And the foolish one is he who has placed his nafs in pursuance of its desires and has vain hopes about Allah.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
42. The Prophet said: 'Believers are like a single person; if his eye is in pain his whole body pains, and if his head is in pain his whole body pains.' (Sahîh Muslim)
43. The Prophet said: 'Truly, I have been sent as a teacher.' (Sunan Ad-Dârimî)
44. Mu'awiyah ibn al-Hakam al-Sulami said: 'By my father and mother, (I swear that) I never saw a teacher, before or after him, who was a better teacher than the Messenger of Allah. By God, he never shouted at me, or punished me, or insulted me.' (Sunan Ad-Dârimî)
45. The Prophet said: 'If one of you happens to be standing when he becomes angry, then he should take a seat. If this helps his anger to subside, then good and well. Otherwise, he should go and lie down.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
46. The Prophet said: 'The strong man is not the one who knocks others down, but the one who controls himself when angry.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
47. The Prophet said: 'Teach the people and give them glad tidings. Do not make things difficult. And if you get angry, remain silent.' (Musnad Ahmad, Musnad al-Tayâlisî, and al-Adab al-Mufrad Bukhârî)
48. The Prophet said: 'Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not trouble his neighbor, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously, and whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should say what is good, or be silent.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim).
49. The Prophet said: 'Honesty leads to righteousness and righteousness leads to Paradise. A man remains honest and concerned about honesty until he is recorded as an honest man with Allah. Lying leads to sinfulness and sinfulness leads to the Fire. A man keeps lying and remains partial to lies until he is recorded as a liar with Allah.' (Sahîh Bukharî, Sahîh Muslim)
50. The Prophet said: 'Do not indulge in excessive talk except when remembering Allah. For it hardens the heart; and those who are the farthest from Allah are those whose hearts are hard.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
51. The Prophet said: 'Three things are the sign of the hypocrite: when he speaks he tells lies, when he promises he breaks it and when he is trusted he proves to be dishonest.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
52. The Prophet said: 'Charity (sadaqah) is due upon every joint of a person on every day that the sun rises. Administering justice between two people is an act of charity; and to help a man concerning his riding beast by helping him on to it or lifting his luggage on to it is an act of charity; a good word is charity; and every step which you take to prayer is charity; and removing that which is harmful from the road is charity.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
53. The Prophet said: 'What is little but sufficient is better than that which is abundant but causes heedlessness.' (Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
54. The Prophet said: 'Two hungry wolves let loose amongst sheep will not cause more harm to them than the harm a person causes to his religion by craving after wealth and fame. (Musnad Ahmad)
55. The Prophet said: 'A man went out to visit a brother of his in a different village, so Allah, the Most High, put an angel in wait for him in the road. So when the angel came to him he said: Where are you going? He said: I am going to visit a brother in this village. He said: Is it that you have done something for him for which you seek repayment? He said: No, it is just that I love him for Allah's sake. He said: Then I am one sent by Allah to you (to inform you) that Allah, the Mighty and Majestic, loves you, just as you have loved for His sake.' ' (Sahîh Muslim)
56. The Prophet said: 'The believer is a mirror for the believer, and the believer is the brother of the believer. He safeguards his property for him and defends him from behind.' (Adab Al-Mufrad Bukhârî, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
57. The Prophet said: 'From the perfection of a person's Islam is that he leaves alone that which does not concern him.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
58. The Prophet said: 'God has revealed to me that you must be humble, so that no one oppresses another and boasts over another.' (Sahîh Muslim, Sunan Abî Dawûd)
    
59. The Prophet said: 'Two characteristics are not found together in a hypocrite: good manners and understanding of the Religion.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
60. The Prophet said: 'Each of you is a guardian and is responsible for those whom he is in charge of. So the ruler is a guardian and is responsible for his subjects; a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for those under his care; a woman is a guardian of her husband's home and is responsible for those under her care; a servant is the guardian of his master's wealth and is responsible for that which he is entrusted with; and a man is the guardian of his father's wealth and is responsible fore what is under his care. So each one of you is a guardian and is responsible for what he is entrusted with.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
61. Some of the Companions once asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) to pray to Allah to invoke His curse upon the pagans. He replied: “I was not sent to curse people but as a blessing. (Sahîh Muslim)
62. The Prophet said: 'Beware of envy, for envy destroys good deeds the way fire consumes firewood. (Sunan Abî Dawûd)
63. The Prophet said: 'There is to be no envy except with regard to two: A man whom Allah has given wealth which he strives to spend righteously, and a man to whom Allah has given the Wisdom (i.e. the Qur'aan) and he acts according to it and teaches it to others.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
64. The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)
65. The Prophet said: 'There is no vessel worse for the son of Adam to fill than his stomach. A few morsels are sufficient for him. If he is to consume more then a third is for his food, a third for his drink, and a third for air.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
66. The Prophet said: 'Anyone who kills even a sparrow for no reason (should know that) it will cry alound to Allah on the Day of the Resurrection, saying, "O my Lord! So-and-so killed me just for fun; he killed me for no reason!" (Sunan An-Nasâ'î)
67. A'isha said: 'I was once riding a difficult (slow-moving) camel, so I kept hitting it. When the Prophet saw me, he said: 'Be gentle, for gentleness adorns everything in which it is found, and its absence leaves everything tainted.' (Musnad Ahmad)
68. The Prophet said: 'If a Muslim plants a seedling or cultivates a field, whenever a bird a human or an animal eats of it, it will be counted as a charity for him.' (Sahîh Muslim)

Women

1. The Prophet said: 'Anyone who cares for three daughter, gives them a good upbringing, marries them to good husbands and treats them well, they will enter paradise. The companions asked, "What about two daughters?" He said, "Even two daughters". They asked what about one daughter? He said "even one". (Sunan Abi Dawûd, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)
2. A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking “ O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company?” The Prophet (P) said “Your mother”. The man said “then who else?” The Prophet (P) said “Your mother”. The man asked, “then who else?” The Prophet (P) replied “Your mother” When the man asked for the fourth time, only then did the Prophet (P) say, “Your father” ( Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
3. The Prophet said: 'Paradise lies at the feet of your mother' (Musnad Ahmad, Sunan An-Nasâ’i, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
4. A'isha, the wife of the Prophet (peace be upon him), said: 'A poor woman came to me carrying her two daughters. I gave her three dates to eat. She gave each child a date, and raised the third to her own mouth to eat it. Her daughters asked her to give it to them, so she split the date that she had wanted to eat between them. I was impressed by what she had done, and told the Messenger of Allah P about it. He said, “Allah has decreed Paradise for her because of it”.' (Sahîh Muslim)
5. The Prophet said: 'Whoever has a daughter born to him, and he did not prefer his son over him, Allah will admit him to Paradise because of her.' (Mustadarak Al-Hâkim)
6. The Prophet said: 'There is no one who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he treats them well, but Allah will admit him/her to Paradise.' (Al-Adab Al-Mufrad of Bukhârî)
7. The Prophet said: 'There is no one among my ummah who has three daughters, or three sisters, and he supports them until they are grown up, but he will be with me in Paradise like this – and he held up his index and middle fingers together. (Mu'jam At-Tabarânî)
8. The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. I am the best of you to his wife and I'm the best to my wife.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
9. The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
10. The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
11. The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
12. The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
13. The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
14. A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
15. The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
16. The Prophet said: 'Iblees (satan) sets up his throne on the water, then he sends out his raiding parties. The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation (fitnah). One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' He (Iblees) says, 'You have not done much.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then he (Iblees) comes close to him and says, 'How good you are!' (Sahîh Muslim)
17. The Prophet said: 'A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so marry one who is religious, may you be blessed.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
18. The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
19. The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
20. Al-Khansaa’ bint Khidaam complained to the Prophet that her father wanted her to marry someone she didn’t want, saying “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.” The Prophet said, “Then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” Al-Khansaa’ said, “I have actually accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters” (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fath Al-Barî Ibn Hajr, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
21. The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)
22. The Prophet said: 'The life of this world is bountiful, and the best of the bounties of this world is the righteous woman.' (Sahîh Muslim)

[Thinker]

Yahya Sulaiman In post number 23 of this thread gave a link to the web page http://www.xyapx.com/ziggyzag/doesislampromotepeace.php which is an article purporting to support the suggestion that Islam is a religion of peace.

The article starts with examples (presumably the best examples) of verses from the Qu’ran that support the suggestion that Islam is a religion of peace.

See here below the examples given. Look at those examples and then look at what is said in the accompanying verses.

Example 1. Making peace between people, according to verse 2:224, is a virtue

This series of verses starts with the assurance that fighting during the holy months is permitted as long as the fighting is against non believers. The seven verses later after giving guidance on marriage and sex, verse 224 says that they Muslims must not use his name as an excuse for not making peace between ‘people’. After specifically calling for the slaughter of non believers seven verses earlier I think it’s a bit of a stretch to suggest that the mention of peace between ‘people’ included no believers. (See below)

217. They ask thee concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of God To prevent access To the path of God, To deny Him, To prevent access To the Sacred Mosque, And drive out its members. Tumult and oppression Are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until They turn you back From your faith If they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith And die in unbelief, Their works will bear no fruit In this life And in the Hereafter; They will beCompanions of the Fire And will abide therein.
218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought In the path of God, They have the hope Of the Mercy of God; And God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
219. They ask thee Concerning wine and gambling . . . .
220. They ask thee Concerning orphans. . . .
221. Do not marry Unbelieving women (idolaters), Until they believe: . . .
222. They ask thee Concerning women's courses; . . .
223. Your wives are as a tilth unto you; . . .
224. And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; For God is One Who heareth and knoweth All things.

Example 2. The Koran is meant (amongst other things) to bring inner peace, according to verse 20:47.

Peace indeed but only to those who ‘follow guidance’ and a penalty awaits all those who turn away from Islam! (See below)

47. "So go ye both to him, And say, "Verily we are Apostles sent by thy Lord:
Send forth, therefore, the Children Of Israel with us, and Afflict them not:
With a Sign, indeed, Have we come from thy Lord! And Peace to all who follow guidance!
48. "Verily it has been revealed To us that the Penalty (Awaits) those who reject
And turn away (from Islam)."


Example 3 Making peace with an unbeliever is a mark of a true believer according to 25:63.

This series of verses speaks about how God created everything and how Muslims should not listen to the evil unbelievers and verse 25:63 suggests it would be gracious when addressed by the ignorant to say “Peace”. This verse, in my opinion, is the nearest Islam gets to offering Peace to the evil unbeliever who shouldn’t be listened to! (see below)

52. Therefore listen not To the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost
Strenuousness, with the (Qur-ān).
55. Yet do they worship, Besides God, things that can Neither profit them nor Harm them: and the Misbeliever Is a helper (of Evil), Against his own Lord!
62. And it is He Who made The Night and the Day To follow each other: For such as have the will To celebrate His praises Or to show their gratitude.
63. And the servants of (God) Most Gracious are those Who walk on the earth
In humility, and when the ignorant Address them, they say, "Peace!";


Example 4 Allah is the bringer of peace according to 59:23

This verse doesn’t say God is the bringer of Peace it says He is the source of peace and there is no suggestion that he will bring peace to anyone other than ‘believers’.

23. God is He, than whom there is no other god; The Sovereign, the Holy One, The Source of Peace (and Perfection), The Guardian of Faith, The Preserver of Safety, The Exalted in Might, The Irresistible, the Supreme: Glory to God! (High is He) Above the partners
They attribute to Him.


Example 5 - Not equal are the good deed and the evil deed. Repel with that which is fairer and behold, he between whom and thee thereis enmity shall be as if he were a loyal friend. 41:34

The author of the article suggest that this verse of the Qu’ran is akin to verse from the bible which says . . .Jesus Christ taught his followers to "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." (Note: these are not my words I just cut and pasted it)

The author states that . . the Koran says the same thing and produces that above. See below verses 33 and 34.

If you read the preceding verses they talk about crushing the vile disbeliever, finally verse 33 talks about converting ‘men’ to Islam and verse 34 says that once the evil (disbelief) is repelled and replaced with better (Islam) then there will be no hatred and the converted man will be a friend. There is nothing in this that can be used to portray Islam as a religion of peace and it is nothing like the verse from the Bible produced by the author! (see below)

33. Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) To God, works righteousness, And says, "I am of those who bow in Islam"?

34. Nor can Goodness and Evil Be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were Thy friend and intimate!

Example 6 – The author produces a version of verses 2:190 and 191 and suggest that these verses taken together with 2:256 the ‘no compulsion in religion’ verse proves that the terrorists are not killing for Islam but for political reasons!

[I]Verse 190 and 191 suggests it is better to slaughter than suffer tumult and oppression but that there are limits which shouldn’t be transgressed and the no compulsion verse states that there is no compulsion but non belivers will fry in hell and then there’s the question of whether Muslims are allowed to leave Islam for another religion. And where does any of that suggest in any way that terrorists are killing for politics and not Islam? (see below)[/I}

190. Fight in the cause of God Those who fight you, But do not transgress limits;
For God loveth not transgressors
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them and turn them out from where they have
turned you out; For tumult and oppression Are worse than slaughter; But fight them not
At the Sacred Mosque, Unless they (first) Fight you there; But if they fight you,
Slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

The article then goes on to talks about many of the Islamic teachings about conflict, war, killing and slaughter and suggests that it’s all been misinterpreted but without any evidence to support the suggestion.

[Thinker]

If I were a Muslim I would be what has become known as an ‘extremist’ because I would have to accept that the Qu’ran is the word of God, that He didn’t make a mistake and that He didn’t need His words interpreting in some way other than how He said them. I started my question here because there are Muslims who speak of other Muslims in terms of radical extremist and moderates and I wondered how Muslims defined those two types of Muslim. Why, because it seems to me that the ‘west’ wants to support moderate Muslims and isolate and vilify extremist Muslims; I wondered what a moderate Muslim is? It has been said here that for Muslims there are no extremists and moderates just good and bad Muslims; a good Muslim being the one who adheres strictly to Islamic teachings. We could argue about which interpretation by which scholar but whatever the interpretation the weight and sentiment of the Qu’ran and Islamic teaching promotes division and conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. So what is a moderate Muslim?

Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims, they must not have non Muslim friends, they must not live amongst non Muslims, they must not even live on the land of non Muslims. Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy. Count the number of words in the Qu’ran that speak of conflict, violence and hate and then count the number of words that speak about love and peace; then examine the verses that speak about peace and look at the context. That isn’t me being nasty or judgmental that is what the text says and you can “ah but” “ah but” all you like, that is fact.

The Muslim you call a ‘good’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and adheres to the script. The ‘bad’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and decides that he/she is going to adhere to the script. Then there’s a whole bunch of Muslims who are in denial, they look towards the ‘scholars’ for reasons why the text doesn’t actually mean what it says; they search for excuses. I started my journey searching for reasons why and how the script had been misinterpreted, I’ve ended up having to accept that if it walks with a waggle, has feathers and quacks it’s a duck. Consequently If I were a Muslim I would accept those words as Gods word and in Muslim terminology I would submit and that would make me an extremist.

[جوري]

If I were a Muslim I would be what has become known as an ‘extremist’ because I would have to accept that the Qu’ran is the word of God, that He didn’t make a mistake and that He didn’t need His words interpreting in some way other than how He said them.

You are not a Muslim, folks who enter Islam have the same character before and after, for instance abu baker (RA) didn't like being drunk, and that was with him before and after Islam. I don't find you to have a decent moral fiber and don't pursue work with high fidelity which is a trait of a Muslim, and as such I doubt you'd make a good Muslim.

I started my question here because there are Muslims who speak of other Muslims in terms of radical extremist and moderates and I wondered how Muslims defined those two types of Muslim.

There are no Muslims who speak in terms of radicals or moderates, those are terms your media churned out and you jumped right up on the band wagon, perhaps you are addressing the wrong people with your concerns?

Why, because it seems to me that the ‘west’ wants to support moderate Muslims and isolate and vilify extremist Muslims; I wondered what a moderate Muslim is?

Indeed, they'd like to turn Islam into a mere religion and not a way of life. Islam as discussed before is a complete constitution, a covenant a way of life. We are not to adopt 18th c. french constitution and visit a mosque on friday only. That wouldn't make for a 'moderate Muslim' it makes for a non-practicing fasiq!

It has been said here that for Muslims there are no extremists and moderates just good and bad Muslims; a good Muslim being the one who adheres strictly to Islamic teachings. We could argue about which interpretation by which scholar but whatever the interpretation the weight and sentiment of the Qu’ran and Islamic teaching promotes division and conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. So what is a moderate Muslim?

What interpretation by what scholar .. do you care to back up your opinion in lieu of merely dispensing with it?

Islam, the Religion of Ease

Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, is the creator of mankind and therefore knows his nature more intricately than mankind himself. Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, has therefore chosen for us a religion best suited to the nature of mankind, a religion that goes neither to the extremes of hardship nor of laxity, but instead provides a middle path; in other words, a religion of ease. Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, said;

"Allah intends for you ease, and does not want to make things difficult for you" [2:185]; and "Allah does not want to place you in difficulty" [5:6].

Such easiness is well explained in the hadeeth reported by Abu Hurairah, radiya Allahu 'anhu, that the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, said, "Religion is easy..." [Bukhari], he also said; "The best of your religion, is the easiest." [Ahmad]

The easiness of this religion was put into practise by the best of humanity, the one who came to deliver the message, as Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, said;

"Verily there has come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves, it grieves him that you should suffer any difficulty, he is anxious for you, for the believers he is full of pity and merciful" [10:128]

This understanding is clarified in a hadeeth in which the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, said; "… Allah did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He sent me to teach and make things easy" [Muslim]. This understanding is further implemented by the mercy sent to mankind, Muhammed, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, in the hadeeth reported by his noble and pure wife, 'Aishah, radiya Allahu 'anhu, who said; "Whenever the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, has a choice between two matters, he would choose the easiest, unless it is sinful (act)" [Bukhari].

Many hadeeths have been reported on the matter of easiness: "Allah likes for this nation ease and hates for it hardship and adversity." [Tabaraani].

"We have been given a privilege over other nations... .we have been given verses that no one else has been given, the last two verses of Surah Baqarah(chapter 2)"Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall into error. Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear" After each statement, Allah responded by saying, "I did, I did, I did"" [Muslim].

To further emphasise this understanding to his companions, when once a Bedouin stood up and started urinating in the mosque, the people caught him; but he, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, ordered them to leave him and to pour a bucket or a tumbler of water over the place where he had urinated. The Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, then said, "You have been sent to make things easy and not to make them difficult" [Bukhari].

An example that illustrates this point is Salah, an act so important and vital to Islam that the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, said; "Between a person and disbelief is discarding prayer" [Muslim]. He also warned against leaving salah, even at the time of his death, in his very last breaths before departing from this world.

Yet in this worship Allah has also prescribed easiness. At first, the number of prayers was fifty in number, but they were reduced several times until they were five. Then it was proclaimed 'O Muhammad, the order is not changed. These five are (equal in reward) to fifty' [Tirmidhi].

Causes of hardship
If Islam is a religion of ease, why do we find many Muslims not practising it? Why do we find them doing very little of what they ought to be doing, and why do even those who practise their religion sometimes find it difficult?

There are reasons why the practice of Islam can becomes hard:

1) Lack of piety
When we speak about Islam being easy we are, in reality, speaking about the easiness of its acts of worship and morals. Religion by definition means commitment and an obligation to a master. Therefore, being a religious person means to be always aware that we are slaves to a master, Allah, subhanahu wata'aala.

From here we see the mistake of those who want 'ease' to mean 'doing nothing', just saying "I am a Muslim", committing themselves to nothing. It is obvious that they want it to be easy, but what exactly do they want? They want an easy life, a life without any religious practices.

The idle belief of 'existing only to live' has long ago been negated by Allah, subhanahu wata'aala. He said:

"Do you think you have been created for nothing and that you will not be resurrected and brought back to Allah again!" [23:115]. He also said: "Thinks man that he is left aimless?" [75:86].

Islam is easy to practice; but those who do not understand the reasons behind their existence, who do not understand the concepts of religion, but meanwhile are striving to secure themselves in this life; then surely they will find its practices difficult.

The easiness of Islam is felt in all of its commandments. Some people find this or that commandment hard to follow but this does not mean that the command is in itself hard; often it is the person who is the cause.

For example Salah, it is an easy act of worship, as Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, has made clear:

"And seek help in patience and prayer and truly it is (prayer) extremely heavy and hard except for Al-Khashi'un (i.e. true submitting)" [2;45].

Prayer is an easy act of worship except, of course, for those who do not truly submit to their Lord; they will find it toilsome.

Why do they find it so? The answer is that it is not the prayer that is difficult, but it is the hearts of these people which have changed from good to bad, as Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, mentioned:

"Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up to pray, they stand with laziness …" [4;142]; in another verse He subhanahu wata'aala, said; "And that they came not to prayer except in a lazy state …" [9;54].

2) Ignorance
The rules of Islam did not come as mere do's and don'ts. Each obligation has wisdom and motivation behind it. It should make no difference to us if the wisdom for that particular practice is known or not, because if it is not known to us today, then if Allah wills, He will reveal it to future generations. What is primarily expected from us is to fully submit and implement every command.

For example, the giving of charity, which apparently decreases the wealth of the giver. Islam did not say "Pay charity, pay charity", as this would not motivate people and therefore make it difficult to act upon. Instead Allah says;

"Would you not like to give a loan to your Lord, and this loan will be paid back to you multiplied and you will be rewarded for it." [2:245]

The Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, said; "Verily, wealth does not decrease because of charity." [Muslim]

It seems Muslims often ask why this act or matter is Halaal or Haraam. With such an attitude they will never achieve their goal, because behind each injunction there is an aspect of wisdom. Without understanding this, practising Islam becomes a heavy burden. With strong belief, we do not even have to ask whether this or that is halaal or Haraam, but rather if it pleases Allah. Therefore we should take the rules seeking the pleasure of Allah subhanahu wata'aala,. If pleasing Allah subhanahu wata'aala, is, always, our aim, then undoubtedly the practice of religion becomes easy, no matter what apparent hardships we may encounter.

3) Inappropriate environment
It is true that sometimes we find it difficult to practise the religion, even those who are committed to it!

The reason behind this is that we are practising our religion in an non-religious environment. Islam is not meant to be practised while being immersed in a Kufr (disbelieving) society. Its practice will indeed be difficult in such an environment. Therefore, the difficulty cannot be blamed upon Islam as a religion, but rather on the circumstances of the society.

Returning to our example of prayer, we see that prayer by itself is easy, but if you have to stand alone to pray amongst non-Muslims, all of them watching you, it will suddenly become difficult. The obvious conclusion is that the prayer in itself is not difficult, but the environment has made it difficult.

Another example is that of a woman who wears hijaab and is happy to cover herself. If this were an Islamic society, it would have been difficult for her not to be covered, or for a man not to respond to the call to prayer and pray in a mosque. Thus difficulty is not the nature of our religion, but we are trying to be pure in a decadent and immoral environment. These realities are not unknown to Islam, because the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, already warned his companions some fourteen centuries ago, and by that has also warned us by saying, as reported by Abu Tha'laba, radiya Allahu 'anhu, "… Ahead of you are days which will require endurance (in the practice of religion), in which he who shows endurance will be like him who grasps live coals. The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does."

The hearers said, "The reward of fifty of them, Messenger of Allah!" He replied, "The reward of fifty of you." A companion said about this difference in reward, "Now you find people helping you to do good deeds, but then they will not find things to help them but they will find things to resist and oppose them." [Tirmidhi].

So Islam is the religion of ease. If we accept it as a religion to start with, then we should take it with its concepts, and practise it in a pure environment (as opposed to a corrupted and decadent one); it will then become an easier religion to practise.

As it is not possible to have a 100% pure society, we have to strive to achieve this by being surrounded by good Muslims. In doing this, the religion will loosen the burdens around it.

The easiness of Islam has even been testified by the enemies of Islam. This was apparent in the statement of the Jews at the time of the Prophet, salla Allaahu 'alaihe wasallam, when a man and a woman from amongst them committed fornication. Some of them said to the others: "Let us go to this Prophet, for he has been sent with an easy law …". [Abu Dawood].

So may Allah, subhanahu wata'aala, make us amongst those who

"Listen to the word and follow the best thereof, whom Allah has guided and those are men of understanding." [39;18].

Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims, they must not have non Muslim friends, they must not live amongst non Muslims, they must not even live on the land of non Muslims.

That isn't true at all.. How dishonest that you should proclaim to be read and 'objective' and merely parroting the same stupid sentiment of the most ignorant of orientalists akin to the moongod crowd!

Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy. Count the number of words in the Qu’ran that speak of conflict,

Again not true at all, perhaps you'd have been better reading a few snippets that I have enclosed in the previous page before opening your stinking bazoo to spill such excrement?

violence and hate and then count the number of words that speak about love and peace; then examine the verses that speak about peace and look at the context. That isn’t me being nasty or judgmental that is what the text says and you can “ah but” “ah but” all you like, that is fact.

yes let's count

here we go
Results 1 - 20 of 113 for love‎ (0.054 seconds)

http://quran.com/search?q=love

Results 1 - 20 of 43 for hate‎ (0.01 seconds)

http://quran.com/search?q=hate

again how is that 'objective' education working out for you?

The Muslim you call a ‘good’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and adheres to the script. The ‘bad’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and decides that he/she is going to adhere to the script. Then there’s a whole bunch of Muslims who are in denial, they look towards the ‘scholars’ for reasons why the text doesn’t actually mean what it says; they search for excuses. I started my journey searching for reasons why and how the script had been misinterpreted, I’ve ended up having to accept that if it walks with a waggle, has feathers and quacks it’s a duck. Consequently If I were a Muslim I would accept those words as Gods word and in Muslim terminology I would submit and that would make me an extremist.

All we can say is that Thank God you are not a Muslim, for you are a poor excuse for a human being and I'd hate to think you'd have to think of what it would be like for you to exercise some decent human qualities, those that make a Muslim!


all the best

[IAmZamzam]

Thinker, either really respond to my article or stop pretending to do so. Discussion of a few opening sentences is not enough. They were almost a superfluous preliminary. Or could it be that the reason you glossed over the majority and main points of my article is that it proves you wrong?

[Zafran]

what is Thinker trying to do exactly - is he promoting falsehood? thats what it looks like from his last post.

and this guy claims hes not bias? I've got news for you everyone is bias - your a prime example of it.

Just to tell you its not the muslims who created the labels of moderate and extremism - somebody else did like the people who benefit from applying these labels - maybe finding them and asking them the questions would be more productive.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

what is Thinker trying to do exactly - is he promoting falsehood? thats what it looks like from his last post.

and this guy claims hes not bias? I've got news for you everyone is bias - your a prime example of it.

Just to tell you its not the muslims who created the labels of moderate and extremism - somebody else did like the people who benefit from applying these labels - maybe finding them and asking them the questions would be more productive.

He's trolling.

Thinker, if you look at his posts is little more than a conventional Orientalist.

[Muhaba]

My replies are in red color.

Yahya Sulaiman In post number 23 of this thread gave a link to the web page http://www.xyapx.com/ziggyzag/doesislampromotepeace.php which is an article purporting to support the suggestion that Islam is a religion of peace.

The article starts with examples (presumably the best examples) of verses from the Qu’ran that support the suggestion that Islam is a religion of peace.

See here below the examples given. Look at those examples and then look at what is said in the accompanying verses.

Example 1. Making peace between people, according to verse 2:224, is a virtue

This series of verses starts with the assurance that fighting during the holy months is permitted as long as the fighting is against non believers. The seven verses later after giving guidance on marriage and sex, verse 224 says that they Muslims must not use his name as an excuse for not making peace between ‘people’. After specifically calling for the slaughter of non believers For your information, the verse said slaughter is graver than fighting in the Holy months. Which means that if nonbelievers are slaughtering and oppressing muslims it is permitted to fight them even in the Holy months. It didn't say that muslims should slaughter nonbelievers for no reason. seven verses earlier I think it’s a bit of a stretch to suggest that the mention of peace between ‘people’ included no believers. (See below) Are you blind? Can't you see that it doesn't say anything about nonbelievers but about those who cause oppression and slaughter, those who prevent people from the Path of God.

217. They ask thee concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: "Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of God To prevent access To the path of God, To deny Him, To prevent access To the Sacred Mosque, And drive out its members. Tumult and oppression Are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until They turn you back From your faith If they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith And die in unbelief, Their works will bear no fruit In this life And in the Hereafter; They will beCompanions of the Fire And will abide therein.

218. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought In the path of God, They have the hope Of the Mercy of God; And God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
219. They ask thee Concerning wine and gambling . . . .
220. They ask thee Concerning orphans. . . .
221. Do not marry Unbelieving women (idolaters), Until they believe: . . .
222. They ask thee Concerning women's courses; . . .
223. Your wives are as a tilth unto you; . . .
224. And make not God's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; For God is One Who heareth and knoweth All things.

Example 2. The Koran is meant (amongst other things) to bring inner peace, according to verse 20:47. Can a murderer feel peace of mind? It's a natural thing for those who follow the true path have peace of mind and those who don't don't have it. This is because the mind knows they aren't on the correct path so feels restless. the reason is that deep down they know they will be questioned about their faith and actions and punished for disobeying. Do you feel inner peace or are you restless to find the truth because deep down you feel that you are wrong? Once you had written what you would say to God if He asked you why you hadn't used your intellect to find the true path, which means that your inner self is bothering you about what you would do if you were resurrected and God questioned you. This shows that God exists and there will be Life after death and your mind feels that you are wrong to deny these things and denying them will get you in trouble in the after-life. We muslims don't wonder whether we are on the right path or not because our minds know that we are.

Peace indeed but only to those who ‘follow guidance’ and a penalty awaits all those who turn away from Islam! (See below) These verses are about Prophet Moses and Pharoah.

47. "So go ye both to him, And say, "Verily we are Apostles sent by thy Lord:
Send forth, therefore, the Children Of Israel with us, and Afflict them not:
With a Sign, indeed, Have we come from thy Lord! And Peace to all who follow guidance!
48. "Verily it has been revealed To us that the Penalty (Awaits) those who reject
And turn away (from Islam)."


Example 3 Making peace with an unbeliever is a mark of a true believer according to 25:63.

This series of verses speaks about how God created everything and how Muslims should not listen to the evil unbelievers and verse 25:63 suggests it would be gracious when addressed by the ignorant to say “Peace”. This verse, in my opinion, is the nearest Islam gets to offering Peace to the evil unbeliever who shouldn’t be listened to! (see below)

52. Therefore listen not To the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost
Strenuousness, with the (Qur-an).
You should quote the verses before this verse so we can see who the Quran is talking about.
55. Yet do they worship, Besides God, things that can Neither profit them nor Harm them: and the Misbeliever Is a helper (of Evil), Against his own Lord!
62. And it is He Who made The Night and the Day To follow each other: For such as have the will To celebrate His praises Or to show their gratitude.
63. And the servants of (God) Most Gracious are those Who walk on the earth
In humility, and when the ignorant Address them, they say, "Peace!";

Insha-Allah more coming later.

[Thinker]

I am here to learn; note that is not the same as to be instructed. I will be courteous and respectful to anyone who helps me learn. I will not attempt to destroy anyone else’s posts of opinions with insults or by cutting and pasting volumes of diatribe. I don’t expect to be liked as I understand that my posts often irritate because humans being human don’t like anyone challenging what they believe.

[Thinker]

Quote (Thinker): Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims, they must not have non Muslim friends, they must not live amongst non Muslims, they must not even live on the land of non Muslims.

Your reply: That isn't true at all.. How dishonest that you should proclaim to be read and 'objective' and merely parroting the same stupid sentiment of the most ignorant of orientalists akin to the moongod crowd!

Quote (Thinker): Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy. Count the number of words in the Qu’ran that speak of conflict,

Your reply: Again not true at all, perhaps you'd have been better reading a few snippets that I have enclosed in the previous page before opening your stinking bazoo to spill such excrement?

Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims . . .
It is narrated in the Sunan of Abu Dawud (#4032) that the Prophet said:
“He who imitates a nation is from them.”
He also said, as narrated by Imam Tirmidhi in his Sunan:
“He is not from us who resembles other than us.”

That’s why Muslim men wear the fist long beard and Muslim women wear the hijab

Musilms must not have non Muslim friends
3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah. See also verses 5:54; 5:55; 5:57; 9:16; 60:1 and others

Muslims must not live amongst non Muslims
Then, in the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him): "Whoever joins the,disbelievers and lives amongst them is one of them' Ibn Ateeq, "Ad-Difaa "', p, 10- 12

Muslims must not even live on the land of non Muslims.
God commands that all Muslims must migrate (hijrah) to live in Muslims lands - Qur'an verse 4:97 . . . They (angels) say: "Was not the earth of Allâh spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?" Such men will find their abode in Hell!

“I disown every Muslim who settles among the mushrikeen.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2645; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: Hijrah (migration) means leaving dar al-harb [non-Muslim lands] and going to dar al-islam [Muslim lands]. This was obligatory at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and remains so after his time for those who fear for their lives. From Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/33, by al-Shawkaani.

Ibn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni: It is mustahabb for him (to migrate) so that he will be able to wage jihad against them i.e. the kuffaar – and he will increase the numbers of the Muslims and support them.

“I am not responsible for any Muslim who stays among polytheists. They asked: 'Why, Apostle of Allah? He said: ‘Their fires should not be visible to one another.’, and he said, “Who joins the polytheists and lives with them then he is like them” and he said: “Migration will not end until repentance ends, and repentance will not end until the sun rises in the west.” Al-Musnad", Vol.4/99, Abu Dawud, Kitab al-Jihad, Vol.3/7, Hadith 2479, and ad-Darami, Kitab as-Siyyar, Vol.2/239. Albani classifies it as Sahih. See: "Sahih al-Ja'mi' as-Sagheer", Vol.6/186, Hadith 7346.

Al-Hassan Ibn Salih said: "whoever remains in the land of the enemy (kufar), will be treated like the disbelievers, so long as he was able to join the Muslims but did not do it. If one of the disbelievers accepts Islam, but still remains with the disbelievers, even though he was able to go to join the Muslims, he is to be treated like them; neither his blood nor his property will be protected. Al-Jasaas, "Ahkam al-Qur'an", Vol.3/216.

Al-Hassan said: "If a Muslim emigrates to the land of the disbelievers, yet does not renounce Islam, he will be an apostate by virtue of his abandonment of 'Dar ul-Islam"'

Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy.

Qur’an 2:216 Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But God knows, and you know not. See also verses 8:12-17; 3:151; 3:152; 2:216; 2:217; 4:84; 8:38-39; 9:5; 9:29; 9:123; 47:4; 2:243-5; 4:74; 4:76-77; 4:95-96; 9:111; 62:6; 9:38-39; 9:44-45; 48:17; 63:7; 5:36; 4:88-91; 8:1; 8:41; 2:178-9; 2:190-4; 3:240; 42:40-43; 3:118; 6:159; 4:75; 4:139; 4:144; 4:51; 5:33; 5:51; 5:80; 8:12; 8:30; 8:60; 8:73; 9:123; 9:30; 13:35; 17:16; 33:64; 40:25; 47:4; 47:4; 60:10; 66:9 and others

[IAmZamzam]

You know, for someone who allegedly doesn't "cut and paste volumes of diatribe", your diatribes do at the very least sound so much like the typical cut-and-paste jobs, refuted nineteen hundred times over on this and other boards (much of it already in this very thread), that we're used to seeing as to make no practical difference. You don't act like someone who's here to learn. What is it you even want to learn?

[جوري]

I am here to learn; note that is not the same as to be instructed. I will be courteous and respectful to anyone who helps me learn. I will not attempt to destroy anyone else’s posts of opinions with insults or by cutting and pasting volumes of diatribe. I don’t expect to be liked as I understand that my posts often irritate because humans being human don’t like anyone challenging what they believe.

you haven't challenged anything we believe, I can't even give you the credit of having come up with it yourself given how many times posted and refuted (including above where you have claimed that love is mentioned less than hate and I have demonstrated that the ratio isn't even 5:1 not that either terms in solitary isolation would have meaning anyway.. you take out of context and expect to be seen as some sort of Illuminati -- the greatest guffaw of all is if some western swine was telling his kids to be true to who they are and not imitate others and follow them into ignorance and stupidity you'd have thought them the greatest words uttered.. The mere fact that you so despise Islam and Muslims and have no desire to read but the greatest desire of all to complain and pat yourself on the back for allegedly being challenging while ironically suffering exactly that which you attribute to others. Cuts and pastes, lack of objectivity, lack of reading and voluminous diatribes!


good luck with all of that!

[Argamemnon]

Islam = Qu'ran + Sunnah.

[Argamemnon]

The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims .

Strange people those non-Muslims... we see the opposite. We see western imperialism and aggression and exploitation. We see invasions and massacres by western armies.. overthrowing of governments.. installing of puppet regimes.. economic and political sanctions.. manufacturing "news".. CIA operations.. systematic torture.. false flag operations... depleted uranium.. constant violations of international agreements and rules by those who want others to abide by them.. terrible warcrimes and much more.

[serena77]

its not just muslims who see that.
I said before i'll say again.... the US was a lot better off during its period of isolationism bfore WW2... and even if the war meant we "had" to get out of that philosophy we would have been much better returning to it. While i have had people in a few countries wish that the US would invade and over throw certain governments... every time i hear it ... it kinda turns my stomach because i've watched so much of what happened in Iraq and afghanistan and i am not so sure they understand what they are asking for.
Salaam to all
Serena

[Argamemnon]

The US has never been isolationist and the aggression did not start after WW2. This is a myth.

[serena77]

well.. it was what they called it..... isolationism to a total... no but very little in politics is ever complete.

However our policy of policemen of the world..... ( shakes head ) .... has been out of control for far too long.

[IAmZamzam]

Yeeeeeeeaaaaaahh!! Yoo-ess-ay! Yoo-ess-ay! No one's as hated or stereotyped as us! W'ere! Number! One! We're! Number! One!

[أحمد]

:sl:

If I were a Muslim I would be what has become known as an ‘extremist’ because I would have to accept that the Qu’ran is the word of God, that He didn’t make a mistake and that He didn’t need His words interpreting in some way other than how He said them. I started my question here because there are Muslims who speak of other Muslims in terms of radical extremist and moderates and I wondered how Muslims defined those two types of Muslim. Why, because it seems to me that the ‘west’ wants to support moderate Muslims and isolate and vilify extremist Muslims; I wondered what a moderate Muslim is? It has been said here that for Muslims there are no extremists and moderates just good and bad Muslims; a good Muslim being the one who adheres strictly to Islamic teachings. We could argue about which interpretation by which scholar but whatever the interpretation the weight and sentiment of the Qu’ran and Islamic teaching promotes division and conflict between Muslims and non Muslims. So what is a moderate Muslim?

Islam teaches that Muslims must physically look different to non Muslims, they must not have non Muslim friends, they must not live amongst non Muslims, they must not even live on the land of non Muslims. Islam does not preach that we should all love each other, it teaches that anyone who is not Muslim is the enemy. Count the number of words in the Qu’ran that speak of conflict, violence and hate and then count the number of words that speak about love and peace; then examine the verses that speak about peace and look at the context. That isn’t me being nasty or judgmental that is what the text says and you can “ah but” “ah but” all you like, that is fact.

The Muslim you call a ‘good’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and adheres to the script. The ‘bad’ Muslim is the Muslim who accepts Islam for what it is and decides that he/she is going to adhere to the script. Then there’s a whole bunch of Muslims who are in denial, they look towards the ‘scholars’ for reasons why the text doesn’t actually mean what it says; they search for excuses. I started my journey searching for reasons why and how the script had been misinterpreted, I’ve ended up having to accept that if it walks with a waggle, has feathers and quacks it’s a duck. Consequently If I were a Muslim I would accept those words as Gods word and in Muslim terminology I would submit and that would make me an extremist.

Interesting you should say the text says one thing and means something else. You must have Islam confused with something else, or have little or no idea on asbab an nuzool.

You have probably noticed "mischief is worse than killing" to mean "go and kill those you disagree with", while the Quran is saying something completely different to your theory. The "mischief" of the makkans wasn't a light disagreement; they tortured many Muslims to death. This problem continued until the "conquest" of makkah. You haven't pointed out the fact that Rasoolullah :saws1: didn't punish the makkans for what they had been doing.

Islam allows plenty of room for justice; if someone has been torturing innocent people to death, then the death penalty isn't too much for him.

Islam doesn't allow killing of innocent people; the examples of killing clearly mention that its to put an end to their evils, which they inflict upon innocents.

Do you still believe the Quran is teaching the media's "extremist" view of Islam? If so, study about Islam. If not, still study and you may learn more.

:wa:

[Thinker]

You know, for someone who allegedly doesn't "cut and paste volumes of diatribe", your diatribes do at the very least sound so much like the typical cut-and-paste jobs, refuted nineteen hundred times over on this and other boards (much of it already in this very thread), that we're used to seeing as to make no practical difference. You don't act like someone who's here to learn. What is it you even want to learn?

Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!

Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?

[أحمد]

:sl:

Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!

Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?

Its unwise to waste two days of your life writing a post of references, which you don't even understand. Its better to write one reference with understanding, than a million without.

:wa:

[جوري]

Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!! Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?

If that took you a few days to compile from ready existing cuts and pastes, I hazard think of how long it will take you to read the refutations given.. maybe you should come back when you are fully evolved? That might take care of a few problems for you -- speed, reading, comprehension and perhaps an original thought!

all the best

[Woodrow]

I just realized what I do not like about this thread.

The connotations the media has caused people to have over the words Extremist and Moderate.

It seems that to many the word Extremest means violent and the word moderate means liberal, permissive. A Muslim is neither.

A true extremist Muslim will be a very Peace seeking person and desire what is fair and just while following Allaah(swt). A moderate would be similar, but not as out spoken.

[IAmZamzam]

Cut and paste, that's not cut and paste - it took me two days to compile that post!!

Refuted nineteen hundred times - show me one?

If you're not going to bother giving a full and real rebuttal to me, I don't see why I should bother doing the same to you. Do a search.

[Karamazov]

It seems that to many the word Extremest means violent and the word moderate means liberal, permissive. A Muslim is neither.

I live in the UK and we hear the term "moderate Muslims" a lot on the news. Your description is perfect of what "moderate" seems to mean; liberal, progressive, etc. Before I actually started looking into Islam myself, I had no idea what "moderate" Islam was supposed to be. I think the media and the UK Government in general is desperate to distinguish between "extremism" and "normal" Islam, and thus they could only come up with the term "moderate". But, from what I'm seeing on this and other Muslim forums I've been reading, Muslims themselves hate the word "moderate". It looks like the UK government has really screwed up here.

[Woodrow]

I live in the UK and we hear the term "moderate Muslims" a lot on the news. Your description is perfect of what "moderate" seems to mean; liberal, progressive, etc. Before I actually started looking into Islam myself, I had no idea what "moderate" Islam was supposed to be. I think the media and the UK Government in general is desperate to distinguish between "extremism" and "normal" Islam, and thus they could only come up with the term "moderate". But, from what I'm seeing on this and other Muslim forums I've been reading, Muslims themselves hate the word "moderate". It looks like the UK government has really screwed up here.

I agree. The media has really messed up the word definitions and have turned into labels of their own design. If we stick to the true meaning of Moderate one would understand Islam is a very peaceful religion with a lot of tolerance for all people. But, we are not liberal, nor permissive. Because the media seems to have changed moderate to mean permissive, many of us are growing to hate the label Moderate.

Extremist has also been messed up, it does not mean the same as fanatical, which is more in line with blind obedience with no thought of others. Extremist need not be a bad thing. At least I hope not as I am a bit of an extremist in my Moderate views.

Perhaps it would be nice if the press came to the understand we are Muslims first, but we are also human and have human traits with individual behaviors, I think the words of the press are designed to label the actions of individuals as actions of an entire group.

[GuestFellow]

Hi Group. Long time no post – did you miss me?

Hi.

After deciding to depart this forum and take from you the benefits of my insightful thought and sharp wit

:X

I find myself with a question which I am having difficulty to answer and knowing the answer lies amongst you I return for your help.

I would glad to answer your...question.

The non Muslims world sees its citizens being attacked by Muslims and in considering what is happening has formed the view that there are two types of Muslim, Islamists and Muslims or radical Muslims and moderate Muslims.

I disagree. I highly doubt you speak for the non-Muslims across the globe. The non-Muslims I assume your referring to are westerners. Yes, it does represent the simplistic minds of some westerners, splitting everything into two categories.

Words have been invented to describe the ‘bad’ Muslims and the ‘good’ Muslims. I came across an article on the Middle East Forum which Argued that "radical Islam is the problem, moderate Islam is the solution." My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?

There is no such thing as moderate or radical Islam. I have no idea why you are asking Muslims on this forum this question. Last time I checked, it was westerners that divided Islam into moderate and radical. This question should be presented to those who have created these categories.

The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?

You need to define radical and moderate. What is radical and moderate?

[jabirmusa]

Just a few newbie thoughts and I will try to keep this brief, though of course there are so many elements in the picture that it's impossible to address them all.

I have had similar discussions in the past regarding 'moderate' and 'radical' Muslims, with both Muslims and kafir, and I feel some items should be clarified early on in any such discussion because so many people confuse Muslims with Islam. It has happened in this thread, with references to both moderate Islam and radical Islam.

First, radical and moderate are subjective terms, so a moderate to one person may be a radical to someone else. It is not Muslims but the kafir that are obsessed by such notions which were created by them in order to pigeonhole Muslims neatly into one box or the other. I feel sad when I see my brothers taken in by this cheap political stunt, looking all warm and fuzzy when condescending kafir put them into the 'moderate' box. It is still a box!

That said, such terms may be useful for context in discussion. It's just that I feel uncomfortable when Muslims use them without safely distinguishing between Muslims and Islam, as commonly happens. Unless this difference is clearly understood, it can wrongly be implied that just as each Muslim is an individual and unique, there is also a selection of Islams according to what is being discussed.

So, while there may be 'moderate' and 'radical' Muslims, with a 'radical' today perhaps becoming less or more 'radical' tomorrow, there is only one Islam in perpetuity for all people and that will not change because it cannot, since if it does it can no longer respectfully be called Islam. To use simple logic, it is patently absurd to assume that anything perfect can be improved by changing it in any way.

Then, again using the discriminatory terms of the kafir, what is the difference between a 'moderate' and a 'radical' Muslim?

If someone stands outside your house and throws stones at your windows are you a 'moderate' Muslim if you hide your frightened children under the bed, and then after a week or a month or sixty years, do you now become a 'radical' Muslim for daring to leave the rubble and defend them?

Is a 'moderate' Muslim striving for peace and justice and equality any different to a so called 'radical' Muslim that is also striving for peace and justice and equality, or are they both striving towards the same ends using different means?

Sorry, I didn't expect such a long post...


Thinker: Never mind how many days you squandered compiling a post, your best will take a few minutes if they're straight from a lifetime of peace and pain.

[kidcanman]

My question is – what is radical Islam and what is moderate Islam; surely there is just Islam?

About 90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. That means by definition they strictly follow the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. The texts are available world wide and American Muslims practice Islam with the same rules and the same absoluteness as Muslims in every culture.

There is no organized group of Muslims who consciously do not fully follow Islam and still consider themselves practicing Muslims. Muslims who don't fully follow Islam are really not recognized by most Muslims in terms of giving them a separate label. They are simply people who are not that religious.

#1 People who do not fully follow Islam make that choice individually.

#2 There is no group of people who have organized in order to not fully follow Islam.

#3 There is no philosophy that exists that directs a person in which way to go about to not fully follow Islam.

Therefore the term "Moderate Muslim" does not make sense because it does not describe any organized group of people.

What is the definition of a "Moderate Muslim"? There is none. Muslims don't have one and non-Muslims don't have one.

The term "moderate Muslim" was not really used until after 9/11. It is a term that the media made popular in order to feed into the misconception that the 9/11 hijackers attacked America because they were practicing the true religion of Islam; that is to say, the implication is that "Moderate Muslims" are not fully practicing Islam and the true religion of Islam teaches violence. The media has obviously succeeded in deceiving most non-Muslims.

The vast majority of Muslims define Islam as a peaceful religion. Again the term "Moderate Muslim" is a concocted term but unfortunately some Muslims use it. However as I just explained the term does not have a definition and when some Muslims use it they do not necessarily believe it to mean what you take it to mean. But of course these Muslims have been tricked into spreading confusion about their own religion.

They know that indiscriminate killing is not sanctioned by Islam so some Muslims label the Muslims that kill indiscriminately as "Radical". But the point they are attempting to make is that people who practice Islam fully and properly are "Moderate Muslims", i.e. 99% of Muslims are "Moderate Muslims" and therefore peaceful, and "Muslims" who kill indiscriminately are "Radical" Muslims. But Muslims who use the term "Moderate Muslims" are inadvertently, due to media propaganda, confusing people into thinking the exact opposite. When Muslims use the term "Moderate Muslim" they legitimize the term from the point of view of a non-Muslim. However the non-Muslim continues to define the term in the way that the media has portrayed it.

#1 Muslims use the term "Moderate Muslims" to refer to the true adherents of the teaching of Islam.

#2 The media has confused people into thinking that "Moderate Muslims" are people who do not truly adhere to the teachings of Islam.

[kidcanman]

The next question is, is Islam radical or moderate; is Islam a religion promoting cohesion and peace or division and conflict?

Islam in many ways does not promote cohesion you are correct. However you are incorrect in your assertion that Islam promotes conflict.

Islam promotes the devision of good from evil and of truth from falsehood.

Promoting division is not a bad thing in and of itself.

You don't want your kids to live in the wrong neighborhood or socialize with the wrong people.

Division has no violent effect on non-Muslims or Muslims.

The Quran speaks poorly about unbelievers but nowhere does it command Muslims to instigate violence towards them or to treat them unjustly.

You cited 50 verses from the Quran and I read them ALL. I have no doubt in my mind that you cut and pasted them off a website. Two of them are in your list twice (8:12 and 9:123) another one is listed three times (47:4), and Surah 3:240 is in your list, but it DOES NOT EXIST (Surah 3 only has 200 verses). The verses you cited do not teach that unbelievers are the enemies of Muslims. Islam is not a "Radical" way of life.

You actually only quoted one verse about violence for us to examine.

"Jihad is ordained for you".

The word "Jihad" means struggle. Or fight. Or fight in the cause of Allah.

The word "Jihad" itself has nothing to do with unbelievers.

So basically the verse reads, "Fighting in the cause of Allah is prescribed for you".

In the context you realize that the fighting prescribed is in self defense.

If Islam promotes conflict you would see it at your front door. There are 5 million + Muslims in America.

[Jibrael]

السلام عليكم

Moderate Muslims are those Muslims who follow the Religion, without going into extreme, and without falling into neglect. They follow a middle course. In this sense, moderate Muslims are the true Muslims, who are truly following in the footsteps of our beloved Prophet, Muhammad Mustafaa صلى اللّه عليه وآله وسلم

Muslims are very diverse, after all, there are seventy-three different sects among the Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad صلى اللّه عليه وسلم said that out of all the sects, there is only one which is saved. It was asked to him which one is that, to which he replied: "The like of that which today I and my companions are upon."

[Mohamed Issa]

There is no such thing as Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim its just Muslim one who worships Allah (SWT) & all who say Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim are cowards working for the Zionists/Crusaders. How dare you Kafir call Muslims Extremists just becaues they are Muslims defening themselves in Afghanistan, Palestine & Iraq. May Allah (SWT) help the Mujahideen to crush the crusaders/zionists in all Muslim lands. Please dear Muslim Brothers & Sister don't say a hurtful thing like Moderate or Extremists we are all Muslims, all part of one family. A Muslim is required to defend his brother when someone talks about him behind his back. In Islam, Muslims should not do injustice to others nor do they tolerate any injustice to themselves. In their love and concern for each other, all Muslims are like one body, as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

“when any part of the body suffers, the whole body feels the pain”.(Sahih Muslim)

[Jibrael]

There is no such thing as Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim its just Muslim one who worships Allah (SWT) & all who say Moderate Muslim or Extremist Muslim are cowards working for the Zionists/Crusaders. How dare you Kafir call Muslims Extremists just becaues they are Muslims defening themselves in Afghanistan, Palestine & Iraq. May Allah (SWT) help the Mujahideen to crush the crusaders/zionists in all Muslim lands. Please dear Muslim Brothers & Sister don't say a hurtful thing like Moderate or Extremists we are all Muslims, all part of one family. A Muslim is required to defend his brother when someone talks about him behind his back. In Islam, Muslims should not do injustice to others nor do they tolerate any injustice to themselves. In their love and concern for each other, all Muslims are like one body, as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

“when any part of the body suffers, the whole body feels the pain”.(Sahih Muslim)

Of course ideally there should be no such thing as "moderate", "extremist", "modern", "traditional", and any other label. Ideally, there should only be Muslims, who have a united word.

But unfortunately, the reality is not the same as what is ideal. Unfortunately, Muslims are broken up into seventy-three different sects. Muslims have differences with each other in virtually each and every aspect of the Religion, including the most fundamental pillar of Islam, which is Tawheed.

So we need to accept this reality that there are indeed Muslims who go to different extremes. There are some Muslims who go to the extreme of negligence. They do not feel it necessary to abide by the divine injunctions and ordinances of the Quran and Sunnah. They are totally secularized and only Muslim in name. This is one extreme.

Another extreme you have Muslims who add things to the religion. They invent extreme forms of worship like Sufism. They go to extremes in asceticism. And likewise in this category are the extremists who do acts of terrorism and killing of innocents in the name of "Jihaad".

However, the Muslims who stick to the Quran and the Sunnah follow the middle path between the extremes. They strictly follow only the Quran and Sunnah, not taking anything away from it, and likewise not adding anything to it.

[Hossam Al-Deen]

Moderate Islam = no Salah.....no Shariah.....no modesty......

Moderate Islam = A diluted form of Islam

Troof. As someone who studies Political Science, a social science, it is remarkable how people with such high credentials, such as PhDs and so on, are yet so utterly ignorant of Islam.

They define a civilized society as one that possess what is called "self-expression" values, such as high levels of individualism, homosexuality, all forms of freedom of speech, including blasphemy, and so on. So, what they are implying, is that until you have homosexuals, blasphemy, porn, and people who only care about themselves, then you are backward.

And essentially a Muslim who accepts this, such as "progressive Muslims", "secular Muslims", etc, they are moderate. On the other hand, if you want Sunnah, and you want to rule off the Qur'an and Sunnah you are backward, terrorist, fundamentalist, etc. Which, to me is fine if you choose to believe that (talking about non-Muslims), my problem is when they try and force their way of life on others, in particular Muslim countries.

[M.I.A.]

labels stick if you allow them, i dont know of the sect and this is my ignorance.
i started from scratch a book and four walls, i had already been tought to read the quran at an early age but the first time i actually read the quran i was 26.
i remember at uni i would go to the mosque with my friends but did not affiliate with the islamic society at the uni, we would see the same people day in and day out but religiously the sermons that i heard were what we had in common.
there are three mosques i visit and i know they are different in teachings but the only thing i know are the sermons before prayer.. this ramadan the main mosque imam said he was against the other mosque and he would never take advice from them or be with them, so i no longer use that mosque.
the other mosque that he talked about was very close to where i used to work and i never ever heard mention of the main mosque or the imam.

all my relatives visit the main mosque so i guess i pretty much lost out on a lot but to me that was the difference between moderate and extreme.
lol anybody can call me anything they like but i didnt want to know the 73 devisions just as much as i can about the book and the things that it has lead me to hear.

[kidcanman]

السلام عليكم

Moderate Muslims are those Muslims who follow the Religion, without going into extreme, and without falling into neglect. They follow a middle course. In this sense, moderate Muslims are the true Muslims, who are truly following in the footsteps of our beloved Prophet, Muhammad Mustafaa صلى اللّه عليه وآله وسلم

Muslims are very diverse, after all, there are seventy-three different sects among the Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad صلى اللّه عليه وسلم said that out of all the sects, there is only one which is saved. It was asked to him which one is that, to which he replied: "The like of that which today I and my companions are upon."

Jibrael you have sidetracked from the actual idea of this thread and you assisted in spreading deception to non-Muslims. The spirit of Thinker's (OP) original question has to do with the false idea that the reason Moderate Muslims are not violent is because they do not actually follow Islam and that Muslims who are violent, are violent because they follow Islam stringently.

The idea of the questioner is that the Quran and the Hadith are radical books, and Muslims that actually follow the Quran and the Hadith correctly are therefore radical. Thinker suggested that Muslims who do not think that they should correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith are the moderate Muslims.

And you have helped to confuse him.

You attempted to explain a point about Islam that really has little to do with the spirit of Thinker's question.

In order to make this tangential point, you stated that moderate Muslims are the ones that correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith; in other words you stated that moderate Muslims are the true Muslims.

Thinker suggested that moderate Muslims are Muslims that do not correctly following the Quran and the Hadith.

You stated that moderate Muslims are Muslims that do correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith.

You both have different definitions of the same term.

However there is no organized group of people that define themselves as "Moderate Muslims".

Unfortunately many Muslims like you frequently use the term. The term is now taken to be a legitimate term because Muslims like you agree that "moderate Muslims" exist.

I understand the meaning of the Hadith that you cited but Thinker does not need to know that many Muslims follow different paths besides the Quran and the Hadith and that true Muslims follow the Quran and the Hadith. And you should not have defined the path of the prophet and his companions as the "Moderate" path. That is the language that non-Muslims have concocted. "Straight" path, or perhaps "Middle" path, is the language of Islam.

The prophet was not a "Moderate Muslim"

NON-MUSLIMS DO NOT DEFINE "MODERATE MUSLIMS" THE SAME WAY AS YOU DO. AND THEY ALSO DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR DEFINITION. WHAT THEY UNDERSTAND IS THAT MUSLIMS USE THE TERM AND THEREFOR THEY THINK THAT THE TERM IS LEGITIMATE.

Furthermore, you stated that Muslims are divided into 73 sects.

Your statement did not promote the idea that you intended.

Your intended idea was that there are 72 groups of Muslims that do not correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith and that these Muslims are radical because they do not correctly follow the Quran and the Hadith.

When non-Muslims here that Islam is divided into 73 sects they understand that the Quran and the Hadith can be interpreted in 73 different ways and that "radical" Muslims are interpreting the Quran and the Hadith the correct way.

In any event I don't agree with you that there are 73 different sects of Islam. 90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. Within the Sunni Muslim group probably 30% also subscribe to the advise of a particular scholar. But all of these scholars give advise based upon the Quran and the Hadith.

You made the claim that there are 73 different sects. I would like for you to list these sects because I don't agree with you.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

Abû Hurayrah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said “This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]



These words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) defines for us the concept of moderation in its proper Islamic context. When it comes to understanding the principles of Islamic Law, our definitions must be drawn from established sources and not purely from the discretion of the individual. Otherwise, our definition might yield a practical model that justifies nothing but itself. Many of our accepted and established principles have begun to take forms that represent only one narrow vision and that are unable to cope with the many demands of Islamic work and propagation.


The Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “This religion is easy.” Ease is moderation. So our religion is moderate and we as a nation of people are moderate.

Allah says: “Thus We have made you a moderate nation”. [Quran Sûrah al-Baqarah 2: 143]


http://islamtoday.com/artshow-426-3225.htm

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^ditto.

What is a moderate Muslim?

a moderate Muslim is one who believes in "there is god god but Allah and Muhammad is his messenger" adding no more than what has been approved by Allah and his messenger (peace be upon him) and taking away nothing less what Allah and his messneger have approved.

a moderate muslim is one who sticks to all commands of Islamic law, be it obedience to paretns, prayer, jihad, upholding ties pf kinship, neighborliness, polygamy, ...everything that Islam comes with and the servant believes and practices, this is what a moderate Muslim is.

a moderate Muslim is not one defined by what hate mongers define him as, in an attempt t make him feel belittled and sow doubt in the hearts concerning his lord and religion.

a moderate Muslim is not one who gives up their prayer or starts drinking and committing zina becuase everyone else thinks its extreme to do so or not to do so..

[Jibrael]

In any event I don't agree with you that there are 73 different sects of Islam.

Brother, it's not my personal opinion that there will be 73 sects among the Muslims, it is an authentic Hadeeth which I already quoted. How can you reject an authentic Hadeeth of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم

Don't you know that anyone who rejects even a single authentic Hadeeth is on the brink of destruction?

90% of Muslims are Sunni Muslims. Within the Sunni Muslim group probably 30% also subscribe to the advise of a particular scholar. But all of these scholars give advise based upon the Quran and the Hadith.

90% of Muslims are not Sunni. In fact, vast majority of Muslims are people of innovation.

You made the claim that there are 73 different sects. I would like for you to list these sects because I don't agree with you.

There are Seventy-three sects, but actually, there are thousands of sub-sects which branch out of the deviated seventy-two sects. The Muslim historians compiled lists of these seventy-two sects. For example, Abdul Qaahir al Baghdadi compiled a list of seventy-two deviated sects in his book "Al-Farq Baynal Farq".

you can Google "List of 73 sects in Islam" and you will find it, insha Allah.

[kidcanman]

:salamext:

Abû Hurayrah relates that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said “This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]



These words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) defines for us the concept of moderation in its proper Islamic context. When it comes to understanding the principles of Islamic Law, our definitions must be drawn from established sources and not purely from the discretion of the individual. Otherwise, our definition might yield a practical model that justifies nothing but itself. Many of our accepted and established principles have begun to take forms that represent only one narrow vision and that are unable to cope with the many demands of Islamic work and propagation.


The Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “This religion is easy.” Ease is moderation. So our religion is moderate and we as a nation of people are moderate.

Allah says: “Thus We have made you a moderate nation”. [Quran Sûrah al-Baqarah 2: 143]


http://islamtoday.com/artshow-426-3225.htm

Qatada, I will try to reiterate this point and explain it in different terms.

The Quran teaches, "do not go into excess in your religion". And personally I interpret the teachings of Islam to be an ideology of moderation. But as I have pointed out now a number of times, when Christians here the term "Moderation" in reference to Islam they don't understand that you should "not go into excess", what they understand is that "you should not properly follow".

If you want to express the idea that Islam is a religion of moderation, please, use a different term than "Moderate" Muslim. The term moderate has a different meaning in this society than what you are trying to convey (I'm not sure how many times I have stressed this point).

There is nothing wrong with expressing moderation in Islam with a different term than "Moderate Muslim".

And the media has promoted this confusion to the extent that they have trick us into misconstruing our deen. You quoted the Quranic verse 2:143 with these terms: "Thus We have made you a moderate nation".

I have never heard this verse translated in this fashion.

Yusuf Ali translates 2:143 "Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced"

Picktall translates 2:143 "Thus We have appointed you a middle nation"

M Asad translates 2:143 "And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way"


You see "middle way" implies that you follow the way fully, but the way is a specific way that is within boundaries and does not go into excess. Whereas the term "moderate" implies that one should not actually fully follow.

[- Qatada -]

Qatada, I will try to reiterate this point and explain it in different terms.

The Quran teaches, "do not go into excess in your religion". And personally I interpret the teachings of Islam to be an ideology of moderation. But as I have pointed out now a number of times, when Christians here the term "Moderation" in reference to Islam they don't understand that you should "not go into excess", what they understand is that "you should not properly follow".

If you want to express the idea that Islam is a religion of moderation, please, use a different term than "Moderate" Muslim. The term moderate has a different meaning in this society than what you are trying to convey (I'm not sure how many times I have stressed this point).

There is nothing wrong with expressing moderation in Islam with a different term than "Moderate Muslim".

And the media has promoted this confusion to the extent that they have trick us into misconstruing our deen. You quoted the Quranic verse 2:143 with these terms: "Thus We have made you a moderate nation".

I have never heard this verse translated in this fashion.

Yusuf Ali translates 2:143 "Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced"

Picktall translates 2:143 "Thus We have appointed you a middle nation"

M Asad translates 2:143 "And thus have We willed you to be a community of the middle way"


You see "middle way" implies that you follow the way fully, but the way is a specific way that is within boundaries and does not go into excess. Whereas the term "moderate" implies that one should not actually fully follow.

I'm fully aware of the western mindset/objective in regard to 'moderate Islam'. However, we Muslims have more right to defining the religion as it has been defined by God and His Messenger themselves (whether you agree or otherwise.) Since a religion/way of life is based on its teachings, and not on what other outsider people define it as.


In regard to the word used in the Qur'an ayah 2:143, the word "Wasatta" is used, which means a "middle way". Moderate can also be used a definition of the word "Wasatta."

[kidcanman]

Brother, it's not my personal opinion that there will be 73 sects among the Muslims, it is an authentic Hadeeth which I already quoted.

The Hadith states that "there will be". You stated that there "are". So please list them for me.

90% of Muslims are not Sunni. In fact, vast majority of Muslims are people of innovation.

The vast majority of Musilm are not devout. Many of us model our behavior on cultural mores as opposed to the teachings of Islam. But there is a difference between a person who does not care to correctly practice Islam and a person who makes a conscious effort to practice a variant form of Islam.

But actually this is kind of off topic.

There are Seventy-three sects, but actually, there are thousands of sub-sects which branch out of the deviated seventy-two sects. The Muslim historians compiled lists of these seventy-two sects. For example, Abdul Qaahir al Baghdadi compiled a list of seventy-two deviated sects in his book "Al-Farq Baynal Farq".

you can Google "List of 73 sects in Islam" and you will find it, insha Allah.

I Googled the topic and I can't find the list. If you will, please cut and paste the list so that we can examine it

[kidcanman]

we Muslims have more right to defining the religion as it has been defined by God and His Messenger themselves (whether you agree or otherwise.) Since a religion/way of life is based on its teachings, and not on what other outsider people define it as.

In regard to the word used in the Qur'an ayah 2:143, the word "Wasatta" is used, which means a "middle way". Moderate can also be used a definition of the word "Wasatta."

God and his messenger use the word "middle way", and then you use word "moderate" in order to fit the definition that non-Muslims have given to you.
You should follow your own advice.

[- Qatada -]

God and his messenger use the word "middle way", and then you use word "moderate" in order to fit the definition that non-Muslims have given to you.
You should follow your own advice.

The word 'moderate' has an implication of something not leaning to either extreme. Whatever extreme that might be.

i.e. "That is a moderately cool drink" i.e. it is neither too hot, neither too cold.


That is the pure root of the word Moderate. And that is the definition of the word Wasatt - that which is in the Middle - that which is inclining to neither extreme.

Hence my definition is correct.

[- Qatada -]

The Hadith states that "there will be". You stated that there "are". So please list them for me.

You should really study Arabic and then study the Qur'an and Sunnah. Without knowing these, you are getting a false sense of confidence.


To answer your point; "there will be" and "there are" is said the same way in Arabic. Since there are only 2 tenses in arabic: Past tense, and Present-Future tense. The exception is if the letter "seen" or the word "sawfa" is added before a statement - which means 'soon'/future tense.


The hadith mentioned by bro Jibrael is as follows;

( أَلَا إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَامَ فِينَا فَقَالَ : أَلَا إِنَّ مَنْ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ افْتَرَقُوا عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً ، وَإِنَّ هَذِهِ الْمِلَّةَ سَتَفْتَرِقُ عَلَى ثَلَاثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ ، ثِنْتَانِ وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ ، وَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ ، وَهِيَ الْجَمَاعَةُ )

رواه أبو داود ( 4597 ) وغيره وصححه الحاكم ( 1 / 128 )

It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise...

Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128),


That letter "seen" made the statement into future tense [coming from the word "sawfa"], so the sects can continue to arise in future generations.

But actually this is kind of off topic.

I Googled the topic and I can't find the list. If you will, please cut and paste the list so that we can examine it

There are many sects which have formed throughout our 1,400 year history. All of them stray from the pure teachings of the Qur'an and prophet Muhammad. This is why they are criticized. If someone cannot name all 73, it may be because there will be more to come in the future.



PS: If anyones interested in finding out what more Letters mean in the Arabic language, and their meanings - they can see this link;

http://linguisticmiracle.com/markings.html

[kidcanman]

The word 'moderate' has an implication of something not leaning to either extreme. Whatever extreme that might be.

i.e. "That is a moderately cool drink" i.e. it is neither too hot, neither too cold.


That is the pure root of the word Moderate. And that is the definition of the word Wasatt - that which is in the Middle - that which is inclining to neither extreme.

Hence my definition is correct.

The pure root of the word is not what is questionable. The issue is that non-Muslims don't define the word when applied to Islam the same way as you do.

"MODERATE MUSLIM" IS A TERM THAT NON-MUSLIMS HAVE ADOPTED TO DISCREDIT ISLAM

YOU HAVE ADDED TO THEIR CONFUSION.

STOP USING THE TERM.

THERE ARE OTHER TERMS THAT YOU CAN USE TO RELATE A SIMILAR, AND LESS CONFUSING UNDERSTANDING.

IT IS NOT HARAM FOR YOU TO USE A SYNONYMOUS TERM.

[kidcanman]

You should really study Arabic and then study the Qur'an and Sunnah. Without knowing these, you are getting a false sense of confidence.


To answer your point; "there will be" and "there are" is said the same way in Arabic. Since there are only 2 tenses in arabic: Past tense, and Present-Future tense. The exception is if the letter "seen" or the word "sawfa" is added before a statement - which means 'soon'/future tense.

You just agreed with the exact point that I made.

The Hadith refers to the future. But Jibrael stated that there are 73 sects right now.
Jibrael does not know if the Hadith is referring to our current time or a time in the future.

But since he stated unequivocally that it is referring to our current time.

I would like for him to show me his proof.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

bro kidcanman :) yes, non muslims have used it to discredit Islam and i don't like using it either.

However, the Muslims on this site used it to 'fight against' those who claim 'moderate Islam' is to give up Islamic values.


The people on this site wanted to say that 'Moderate Islam is the Full Quran and the Full Prophetic Sunnah' since God and His Messenger told us that this is the Moderate/Middle way.

[- Qatada -]

You just agreed with the exact point that I made.

The Hadith refers to the future. But Jibrael stated that there are 73 sects right now.
Jibrael does not know if the Hadith is referring to our current time or a time in the future.

But since he stated unequivocally that it is referring to our current time.

I would like for him to show me his proof.

:salamext:

I've quoted the hadith which states it is the future tense.

( أَلَا إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَامَ فِينَا فَقَالَ : أَلَا إِنَّ مَنْ قَبْلَكُمْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ افْتَرَقُوا عَلَى ثِنْتَيْنِ وَسَبْعِينَ مِلَّةً ، وَإِنَّ هَذِهِ الْمِلَّةَ سَتَفْتَرِقُ عَلَى ثَلَاثٍ وَسَبْعِينَ ، ثِنْتَانِ وَسَبْعُونَ فِي النَّارِ ، وَوَاحِدَةٌ فِي الْجَنَّةِ ، وَهِيَ الْجَمَاعَةُ )

رواه أبو داود ( 4597 ) وغيره وصححه الحاكم ( 1 / 128 )
It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise...

Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128),

Even if we look at the hadith logically, Angel Jibreel would not say that there are 73 sects in Islam during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), since there was only one group at that time - Prophet Muhammad and his companions way only. That was the Ahlus Sunnah (the people of the Prophetic way.)

Only later on different sects formed as history progressed.

[kidcanman]

:salamext:

Even if we look at the hadith logically, Angel Jibreel would not say that there are 73 sects in Islam during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), since there was only one group at that time - Prophet Muhammad and his companions way only. That was the Ahlus Sunnah (the people of the Prophetic way.)

Only later on different sects formed as history progressed.

I did not refer to the angel Jibreel. I referred to the poster Jibrael. Jibrael insisted, in post #60, that there are 73 different sects in our current time. I would like to know how he determined that the Hadith is referring to our current time.

[Jibrael]

There are indeed 73 sects which emerged in the early history of Islaam. Now however, there are literally THOUSANDS of sects and parties...which have branched out of the main 72 divisions.

I don't have the full list with me, but here are some of the common deviated sects:

1. Qadariyyah -who deny the Qadr
2. Rafidhah (Shi'ah) -who bear enmity toward the Companions
3. Murji'ah - the most common today are the Maturidi Hanafis -believe faith is static, neither increases nor decreases
4. Khawaarij (including the Ibadhi sect in Oman) -believe major sins takes one out of Islaam
5. Zaidi Shi'ah (mostly in Yemen)
6. Isma'ili Shi'ah - divided into Nizari and Musta'ali branches - represented today by Agha Khani and Bohra subsects
7. Sufi sects, orders, and suborders (Naqshbandi, Qadiri, Chishti, Suhruwardi, Shadhili, Tijani, Rifa'i, Niamatullahi, Bekhtashi, etc.)
8. Ashari and Neo-Jahmis (who deny the Attributes of Allaah except for about 7 odd)
9. Mu'tazilah (who believe the Quraan is created and not the speech of Allaah)
10. Mujbirah (who deny free will and believe a person is forced)
11. Nawaasib (who bear enmity towards Ahlul Bayt)
12. Akhbari Twelver Shi'ah (who believe the Quraan has been corrupted)
13. Hizb-ut-Tahrir (who deny punishment of the grave)
14. Ahlul Quraan (who deny the Sunnah and Ahadeeth)
15. Parwaizi (who reject the importance of the Sunnah)
16. Submitters/19ers (who believe Rashad Khalifah to be a Messenger of Allaah)
17. Qadiyanis/Ahmadis (who believe Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani to be a Prophet)
18. Nation of Islam (who believe Elijah Poole to be a prophet)
19. Jama'at-ul-Muslimeen (a sect which believes anyone who is not part of their Jamaa'ah is out of Islaam)
20. Habashis
21. Ikhwan-ul-Muslimeen/Jama'ati Islaami
22. Barailwis (who promote grave worshiping and other innovations)
23. Deobandis (who believe in Wahdatul Wujood) -divided into Hayati and Mamati subsects
24. Nusairis
25. Dhahiris

From the top of my head I counted at least 25 major sects. But trust me, there are a lot more than that.

[kidcanman]

From the top of my head I counted at least 25 major sects. But trust me, there are a lot more than that

If you can list 25 from the top of your head, then surely you can list 73 from the place that you found them.

[Bro]

If you can list 25 from the top of your head, then surely you can list 73 from the place that you found them.

I can't post links here but try "different sects in islam" in google.

[Bro]

I can't post links here but try "different sects in islam" in google.

"Islam" ....

[Jibrael]

1.
Jarudiyah
Followers of Abu'l-Jarud, They believe Prophet (pbuh) designated Ali (ra) as the Imam by his characteristics but not by name.
2.
Sulaimaniah / Jaririyah
Followers of Sulaiman ibn-Jarir al-Zaidi, They believed Imamat was a matter of conference and could be confirmed by two best Muslims.
3.
Butriyah / Hurariyah
They did not dispute the Khilafat of Uthman, neither they attack him nor praise him.
4.
Yaqubiyya
They accepted the Khilafat of Abu Bakr and Umar, but did not reject those who rejected these Khulafaa. They also believed that Muslim committers of Major sins will be in hell fire forever.
5.
Hanafiyah
Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.
6.
Karibiyah
They believed that Imam Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah is not dead and is the Imam Ghaib (in disappearance) and the expected Mahdi.
7.
Kamiliyah
Followers of abu-Kamil. They believed companions to be heretic because they forsook their allegiance to Ali and condemn Ali for ceasing to fight them. They believed in the returning of the dead before the Day of Resurrection and that Satan is right in preferring fire to clay.
8.
Muhammadiyyah / Mughairiyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah ibn-al-Hassan. They do not believe that Imam Muhammad ibn-'Abdullah died and that he is Imam Ghaib and awaited Mahdi.
9.
Baqiriyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-'Ali al-Baqir. They believe him to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.
10.
Nadisiyah
They believe that those who consider themselves better than anyone else are Kafirs (disbelievers).
11.
Sha'iyah
They believe that the one who has recited La Ilaha Il-Allah (There is none worthy of worship except Allah), whatever she or he does, will never be punished.
12.
Ammaliyah
They believe that faith for one is what he/she sincerely practices.
13.
Ismailiyah
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Ismail ibn-Ja'far.
14.
Musawiyah / Mamturah
They believe Musa ibn-Ja'far to be the Imam Ghaib and expected Mahdi.
15.
Mubarikiyah
They believe in the continuity of Imammate among the descendants of Muhammad ibn-Ismail ibn-Ja'far.
16.
Kathiyah / Ithn 'Ashariya (the Twelvers)
They believe that expected Mahdi will be the twelveth Imam among the descendants of 'Ali ibn-abi-Talib.
17.
Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah
They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.
18.
Zarariyah
They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.
19.
Younasiyah
Followers of Younas ibn-'Abd-al-Rahman al-Kummi. They believe that Allah is borne by bearers of His Throne, though He is stronger than they.
20.
Shaitaniyah / Shireekiyah
They believed in the view that deeds of servants of Allah are substances; and a servant of Allah can really produce a substance.
21.
Azraqiah
Followers of Nafi ibn-al-Azraq. They do not believe in the good dreams and vision and claim that all forms of revelation has ended.
22.
Najadat
Followers of Najdah ibn-'Amir al-Hanafi. They abolished the punishment for drinking wine also they believed that sinners of this sect would not be treated in hellfire but some other place before allowed in paradise.
23.
Sufriyah
Followers of Ziyad ibn-al-Asfar. They believed that sinners are in fact polytheists.
24.
Ajaridah
Followers of Abd-al-Karim ibn-Ajrad. They believed that a child should be called to Islam after it has attained maturity. Also they believed booty of war to be unlawful till the owner is killed.
25.
Khazimiyah
They believe Allah loves men of all faiths even if one has been disbeliever most of his life.
26.
Shuaibiyah / Hujjatiyah
They believe that what Allah desires does happen no matter what and what does not happen it means Allah desires it not.
27.
Khalafiyah
Followers of Khalaf. They do not believe in fighting except under the leadership of an Imam.
28.
Ma'lumiyah / Majhuliyah
They believed that whoever did not recognize Allah by all His names was ignorant of Him and anyone ignorant of Him was a disbeliever.
29.
Saltiyah
Followers of Salt ibn-Uthman. They believed in the conversion of adults only and if father has converted to Islam children were considered disbeliever till they reach maturity.
30.
Hamziyah
Followers of Hamza ibn-Akrak. They believe that children of polythiests are condemned to hell.
31.
Tha'libiyah
Followers of Tha'labah ibn-Mashkan. They believe that parents remain guardian over their children of any age until children make it clear to parents that they are turning away from truth.
32.
Ma'badiyah
They did not believe in taking or giving alms from or to slaves.
33.
Akhnasiyah
They do not believe in waging a war except in defense or when the opponent is known personally.
34.
Shaibaniyah / Mashbiyah
Followers of Shaiban ibn-Salamah al-Khariji. They believe Allah resembles His creatures.
35.
Rashidiyah
They believe that land watered by springs, canals or flowing rivers should pay half the Zakat (Tithe), while land watered by rain only should pay the full Zakat.
36.
Mukarramiyah / Tehmiyah
Followers of abu-Mukarram. They believe that ignorance constitutes as disbelief. Also that Allah enmity or friendship depends upon the state of a persons belief at his death.
37.
Ibadiyah / Af'aliyah
Consider Abdullah ibn-Ibad as their Imam. They believe in doing good deeds without the intention of pleasing Allah.
38.
Hafsiyah
Consider Hafs ibn-abi-l-Mikdam as their Imam. They believe that only knowing Allah frees one from polytheism
39.
Harithiya
Followers of Harith ibn-Mazid al-Ibadi. They believe that the ability precedes the deeds.
40.
Ashab Ta'ah
They believe that Allah can send a prophet without giving him any sign to prove his prophecy.
41.
Shabibiyah / Salihiyah
Followers of Shabib ibn-Yazid al-Shaibani. They believe in the Imamate of a woman named Ghazalah.
42.
Wasiliyah
Followers of Wasil ibn-'Ata al-Ghazza. They believe that those who commit major sins will be punished in hell but still remain believers.
43.
'Amriyah
Followers of 'Amr ibn-Ubaid ibn-Bab. They reject the legal testimony of people from supporters of either side of the battle of Camel.
44.
Hudhailiyah / Faniya
Followers of abu-al-Hudhail Muhammad ibn-al-Hudhail. They believe that both Hell and Paradise will perish and that preordination of Allah can cease, at which time Allah will no longer be omnipotent.
45.
Nazzamiyah
Followers of abu-Ishaq Ibrahim ibn-Saiyar. They do not believe in the miraculous nature of the Holy Quran nor do they believe the miracles of Holy Prophet (pbuh) like splitting the moon.
46.
Mu'ammariyah
They Believe that Allah neither creates life nor death but it is an act of the nature of living body.
47.
Bashriyah
Followers of Bashr ibn-al-Mu'tamir. They believe that Allah may forgive a man his sins and may change His mind about this forgiveness and punish him if he is disobedient again.
48.
Hishamiyah
Followers of Hisham ibn-'Amr al-Futi. They believe that if a Muslim community come to consensus it need an Imam and if it rebels and kills its Imam, no one should be chosen an Imam during a rebellion.
49.
Murdariyah
Followers of Isa ibn-Sabih. They believe that staying in close communication with the Sultan (ruler) makes one unbeliever.
50.
Ja'friyah
Followers of Ja'far ibn-Harb and Ja'far ibn-Mubashshir. They believe that drinking raw wine is not punishable and that punishment of hell could be inferred by a mental process.
51.
Iskafiyah
Followers of Muhammad ibn-Abdallah al-Iskafi. They believe that Allah has power to oppress children and madmen but not those who have their full senses.
52.
Thamamiyah
Followers of Thamamah ibn-Ashras al-Numairi. They believe that he whom Allah does not compel to know Him, is not compelled to know and is classed with animals who are not responsible.
53.
Jahiziayh
Followers of 'Amr ibn-Bahr al-Jahiz. They believe that Allah is able to create a thing but unable to annihilate it.
54.
Shahhamiyah / Sifatiyah
Followers of abu-Yaqub al-Shahham. They everything determined is determined by two determiners, one the Creator and the other acquirer.
55.
Khaiyatiyah / Makhluqiyah
Followers of abu-al-Husain al-Khaiyat. They believe that everything non-existant is a body before it appears, like man before it is born is a body in non-existance. Also that every attribute becomes existant when it makes its appearance.
56.
Ka'biyah
Followers of abu-Qasim Abdullah ibn-Ahmad ibn-Mahmud al-Banahi known as al-Ka'bi. They believe that Allah does not see Himself nor anyone else except in the sense that He knows Himself and others.
57.
Jubbaiyah
Followers of abu-'Ali al-Jubbai. They believe that Allah obeys His servants when He fulfill their wish
58.
Bahshamiyah
Followers of abu-Hashim. They believe that one who desires to do a bad deed, though may not do it, commits infidelity and deserves punishment.
59.
Ibriyah.
They believe that Holy Prophet (pbuh) was a wise man but not a prophet.
60.
Muhkamiyah
They believe that God has no control over His creations.
61.
Qabariyya
They do not believe in the punishment of grave.
62.
Hujjatiya
They do not believe in the punishment for deeds on the grounds that because everything is determined so whatever one does s/he is not responsible for it.
63.
Fikriyya
They believe that doing Dhikr and Fikr (Remembering and thinking about Allah) is better than worship.
64.
'Aliviyah / Ajariyah
They believe that Hadhrat Ali share prophethood with Muhammad (pbuh).
65.
Tanasikhiya
They believe in the re-incarnation of soul.
66.
Raji'yah
They believe that Hadhrat Ali ibn-abi-Talib will return to this world.
67.
Ahadiyah
They believe in the Fardh (obligations) in faith but deny the sunnah.
68.
Radeediyah
They believe that this world will live forever.
69.
Satbiriyah
They do not believe in the acceptance of repentance.
70.
Lafziyah
They believe that Quran is not the word of God but only its meaning and essence is the word of God. Words of Quran are just the words of narrator.
71.
Ashariyah
The believe that Qiyas (taking a guess) is wrong and amounts to disbelief.
72.
Bada'iyah
They believe that obedience to Ameer is obligatory no matter what he commands.

[kidcanman]

1-72

I don't have time to examine them right now. I wonder if a thread already exist that discussed this topic or if we can open a new thread to do so. In any event i will examine them within the next two days inshaallah

[syed_z]

If you can list 25 from the top of your head, then surely you can list 73 from the place that you found them.

Hello. I agree with what brother in Islam have said so far about different sects in Islam. There have been many throughout 1400 years of Islamic history. Never at one time have they existed amongst Muslims together. However i would also like to give explanation on this Hadith, as to what is being emphasized over here. We can understand this under the Light of Quran 1st..

(23:52) And, Verily, this community of yours is one single community, since I am the Sustainer of you all, remain, then, Conscious of Me!

(23:53) But they (who claim to follow you) have torn their unity wide asunder, piece by piece, each group delighting in (but) what they themselves possess (by way of tenets).


The above Verses 1st give us a Message, that in the history of mankind, every religious group who was given a revelation and a Prophet sent by God, had divisions which took place amongst them and it was this division which led them astray. But since division occurred amongst religious groups of all Prophets, so would such division take place amongst the followers of Prophet Muhammad (Saw). And so Prophet himself gave prediction of such divisions which would take place, NOT exactly the time frame is given in the hadith but ONLY that this would take place in future, we can assume it means would take place from his time onwards till before the Day of Judgment.

Most important point being mentioned in the Hadith is "The Jews have been split up in to seventy one sects, Christians in to seventy two sects, whereas my community will be split up in to seventy three sects." .... In Classical Arabic the number "seventy" often stands for "many" - just as "seven" stands for "several" or "various" - and does not necessarily denote an ACTUAL figure! Hence what Prophet (saw) meant to say was that the sects and divisions among Muslims of later days would become many, and even more numerous than those among Jews and Christians.)

[syed_z]

Whoa..Brother Jibrael actually posted all of them. From what i know, they do not exist together in our times. They have existed in 1400 years of Muslim history. So there is no time frame. Also in the 72 posted you did not mention the 20 sub sects amongst the shias ? Would that mean 72 plus 20 = 92 ? Then wouldn't the Hadith become wrong ? So brother, the figure 71 and 72 for Jews and Christians and 73 for Muslims, is just to show that we would become even WORST in divisions then the Jews and Christians. Its not Literal :)

[Jibrael]

Whoa..Brother Jibrael actually posted all of them. From what i know, they do not exist together in our times.

Actually some of the sects I listed may not exist anymore...especially some of the Shi'ah subsects like the Hanafiyah or the Baqiriyah, etc.

Most of the sects that I listed are actually branches of several main groups: the Rafidhah, the Khawarij, the Murji'ah, the Qadariyyah, the Mu'tazilah, the Jahmiyyah, the Mujassimah, and the Jabariyyah.

Also in the 72 posted you did not mention the 20 sub sects amongst the shias ?

Actually you could say most of the sects I listed are subsects of the Rafidhah Shi'ah, such as the Hanafiyah, the Ithna Ashariyah, the Baqiriyah, the Isma'iliyah, the Zaidiyah, etc.

Would that mean 72 plus 20 = 92 ? Then wouldn't the Hadith become wrong ? So brother, the figure 71 and 72 for Jews and Christians and 73 for Muslims, is just to show that we would become even WORST in divisions then the Jews and Christians. Its not Literal

The Hadeeth is literal, because like I said, there are 72 main sects, but there are thousands of sects which branch off from the 72 main deviated sects.


And of course there is 1 sect which is upon the Truth and which is Ahlus Sunnah (the People of Sunnah), in this time known as Ahlul Hadeeth (the People of Hadeeth)

[syed_z]

Brother Jibrael, i still do not believe that they exist today all together, yes they might have in the past. But not today. For example the Hashashins were the extremists Ismailis, do they exist today in our times ? No. Khawarij used to exist, but not today. Even if you say they have sub branches, then that branch does not hold to the exactly same views of their original sect, like ibadi exists from khawarij, yet their views have completely changed, so that would add Ibadi plus Khawarij and then Hashashin Plus Ismailism, and then that would add up to many many more. And then the Seventy part does make sense, as being interpreted as Various and Several. But i have no arguments with you my brother, i was trying to explain Kidmancan and make him understand about the Hadith. Salaam.

[Jibrael]

Brother Jibrael, i still do not believe that they exist today all together, yes they might have in the past. But not today. For example the Hashashins were the extremists Ismailis, do they exist today in our times ? No. Khawarij used to exist, but not today. Even if you say they have sub branches, then that branch does not hold to the exactly same views of their original sect, like ibadi exists from khawarij, yet their views have completely changed, so that would add Ibadi plus Khawarij and then Hashashin Plus Ismailism, and then that would add up to many many more. And then the Seventy part does make sense, as being interpreted as Various and Several. But i have no arguments with you my brother, i was trying to explain Kidmancan and make him understand about the Hadith. Salaam.

I disagree with you about the Khawaarij. They do indeed exist today, in fact the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that they would be in every generation until when the Dajjaal comes, they will follow him.

The Khawaarij historically consisted of many groups. However, there are two kinds of Khawaarij, what I call "Paleo-Khawarij" and "Neo-Khawarij". Most of the Paleo-Khawarij don't exist anymore, except for the Ibadhis. However, as you rightly pointed out, the Ibadhis are not as extreme, but they still have remnants of Khawarij aqeeda.

As for the Neo-Khawaarij, they are the present day Takfiris, like Al-Qaida, etc., who make Takfeer against the Muslim rulers and believe it is allowed to take the blood of innocent Muslims, just like the ancient Khawaarij who rebelled against Ali رضى الله عنه in the Battle of Nahrawan.

[GuestFellow]

What about Muslims who believe in secularism and reject the Sharia? Is that not a sect? Or is it in the list (sorry I may not have spotted it)?

:/

[Woodrow]

Ladies and Gentlemen and Children of all ages step up and witness the most amazing transformation act of the 21st century. Before your very eyes you will see 1.6 billion people turn from being peaceful people into terrorists.

Look up my sleeve nothing there, no slight of hand. Just control of the language and altering definitions.

A very simple but effective trick. We change the popular meaning of Moderate to being liberal and show that liberal means non-practicing. Immediately we get 1.6 billion people to despise being called Moderate and refusing to call themselves Moderate.

Next we only give them 2 choices they can call themselves Moderate or they can call themselves Extremists. The old forced choice trick. Of course most will then call themselves extremist.

Now this is where the clincher comes in, we use the press and promote extremist as being terrorist. Voila, with out even working up a sweat we have just changed 1.6 Billion peace loving people into terrorists.

People it looks like 1984 is here and whoever controls the media controls the thoughts.

Let us stop being forced into choices that make us look bad. Live as Muslims, Act like Muslims in all things and refuse to accept any label that puts a qualifying adjective on our names. We are Muslims we are not Moderate Muslims, we are not extremist Muslims.

We are Muslim and darn happy to be so.

[kidcanman]

1-72

Jibrael I don't think that I will have time to examine this list until this weekend. But one question: out of this list is there any group that is called "Moderate Muslims"?

[Tyrion]

Well, I think a "moderate" Muslim is just any Muslim who tries to follow the religion in a sincere and humble way... In other words, a moderate Muslim is a good Muslim.

I feel like the thing that makes someone "extreme" has more to do with their interpretation of certain aspects of the religion, and the tendency to stick to a very rigid way of seeing things...Sometimes that happens because of an agenda (and they might use the religion to get their way), and other times it happens because of arrogance or ego. I don't like using the word extreme to label Muslims, but still... I can't deny that there does exist that type that believes only his understanding is the correct one, and who leaves the example of the Prophet (pbuh) behind and becomes arrogant or self-righteous... That type of Muslim typically doesn't take well to another Muslim who holds different views, and usually ends up being consumed by his anger/ego/agenda/desire/etc...

I don't think this covers everything, or that it's entirely accurate... But I'll stick with it for now. :p

[kidcanman]

Actually some of the sects I listed may not exist anymore...especially some of the Shi'ah subsects like the Hanafiyah or the Baqiriyah, etc.

Most of the sects that I listed are actually branches of several main groups: the Rafidhah, the Khawarij, the Murji'ah, the Qadariyyah, the Mu'tazilah, the Jahmiyyah, the Mujassimah, and the Jabariyyah.


Actually you could say most of the sects I listed are subsects of the Rafidhah Shi'ah, such as the Hanafiyah, the Ithna Ashariyah, the Baqiriyah, the Isma'iliyah, the Zaidiyah, etc.

Can you please provide the confirmed list of 73 sects so that I can examine it?

[kidcanman]

1-73

I agree with the idea that we should take the prophet as an example, but that does not mean that all hadith are true.

You believe that Islam will be broken into 73 sects. I found the website that contains your list and the author of your list did not sufficiently answer the most important question concerning the legitimacy of his/your list.

What is the definition of a sect?


This question is vital for two reasons. The first reason is because, as you touched on in a previous post, if a sect is simply a group of muslims that have a particular set of beliefs that differ from another group, than there are millions of sects of Islam. Because if you visit any large city in the United states you will find multiple masjids that have many different practices. So again if you define sects as groups of muslims that differ in their beliefs than of course there are millions of sects, not 73, and the hadith is false.

If you define a sect in a different way, then I need to know how you define a sect, on what authority do you define it this way, and then I can determine if the sects on your list fit into the authentic definition of a sect. But of course the hadith that you quoted did not provide what the definition of a sect is.

The second reason why the definition of a sect is important is because Allah does not divide Islam into sects in the quran. On the contrary the quran states

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the last day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear nor shall they
grieve. Yusuf Ali Quran 2: 62

And the quran also states

"whoever submits his whole self to Allah and is a doer of good he will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear nor shall they grieve." Yusuf Ali Quran 2:111.

And of course we know that you will not find any verse in the quran that will contradict these verses.

The quran also states

If Allah had so willed He would have made you a single people but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute.

[Argamemnon]

The hadith about 72 false sects could also refer to or include Buddhism, Hinduism, as well as all other false religions (committing shirk). I believe as Muslims we are wasting valuable time we should be spending to do righteous deeds for the benefit our soul.

And as always; God knows best... Allahu Alem.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

brother argamenon, no - the hadith is not about buddhists and hindus. :) They are polytheists and not a subsect within Islam.


kidcanman, please refer to this if you are sincere;
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Note: Sects begin when people stray from the Pure teachings of the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad.

[Argamemnon]

brother Qatada,

but within ahl us sunnah ("firqa-i-najiya") there can be very differing views about many topics. So it makes one wonder which is the real ahl us sunnah. I've read a few books (different authors who claim to belong to ahl us sunnah) who were expressing rather differing (conflicting) views regarding certain important issues. Is there really one ahl us sunnah sect (in reality) ?

[- Qatada -]

brother Qatada,

but within ahl us sunnah ("firqa-i-najiya") there can be very differing views about many topics. So it makes one wonder which is the real ahl us sunnah. I've read a few books (different authors who claim to belong to ahl us sunnah) who were expressing rather differing (conflicting) views regarding certain important issues. Is there really one ahl us sunnah sect (in reality) ?

Asalam alykum.

Its not about who CLAIM to follow the way of Prophet Muhammad and his companions, rather its about those who actually DO follow their way and example.

Those who do that are ahlus sunnah (the people of the Qur'an and Sunnah).

[kidcanman]

kidcanman, please refer to this if you are sincere;
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...ection=Hadeeth

Here is my reply to each point.

Myth #1Ahadeeth were written 200 years after the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): I actually believe that people did right down ahadith during the time of the prophet so on this point I am in agreement with the author.

Myth #2 Al-Hikmaah is an attribute of the Glorious Qur’aan. It does not matter if Hikmaah is referring to the quran or the teachings of the prophet. I have no qualms with the idea that the teachings of the prophet are a wisdom from Allah, my position is that there is no way to verify that what we have now are the authentic teachings from the prophet because ahadith preservation is conducted through mortal channels.

Myth #4 The ahadeeth is not protected.: This is the single most important issue in my assessment of the legitimacy of ahadith. And the author fell short in his defence of ahadith preservation. The ayat that the author cited is as follows:

"With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you the Dhikr, that you may tubayyina (explain clearly) to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. (Soorah An-Nahl:44)"

The author said that Dhikr has numerous meanings and one of the meanings is sunnah. The above ayat is his proof of his position. However he is obviously being hypicritical. When he wanted to separate the quran from Hikmaah in order to bolster his previous argument he cited an ayat that states that the prophet teaches "the book and the Hikmaah". And he argued that these are two seperate things.

Now that he wants to bolster a different argument he cites a verse that says "we...sent...you the Dhikr, that you may teach (explain clearly) to men". And he said that the dhikr and the teaching is the same thing.

The truth is that "Dikr" in the latter ayat refers to the Quran and the "teaching" is a reference to ahadith.

If I am mistaken in this assessment than please correct me. The bottom line is that the author does not provide any valid evidence to oppose the most delegitimizing factor when speaking of ahadith (and in fact the most important and the only point that I pointed out in my argument against them).

And that is that ahadith preservation is a mortal endeavor and therefore flawed


Myth #5 Some authentic ahadeeth contradict the Glorious Qur’aan

The author himself admitted that there are some "apparent" contradictions but then he states that it is because the sahabas narrated according to their own understanding? Then he states that the general public cannot point out a contradiction because our capacity to interpret is not as good as the scholars. So we should look to the scholars.

But of course there are Quraniyyah scholars who will also point out the same contradictions.

So the author fails again.

In any event Qatada, the preservation of ahadith is the most important issue and this article failed to show that they are definitely preserved.

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Surah Hujarat 49:13

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَى وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ (49:13)

Ya ayyuha alnnasu inna khalaqnakum min thakarin waontha wajaAAalnakum shuAAooban waqabaila litaAAarafoo inna akramakum AAinda Allahi atqakum inna Allaha AAaleemun khabeerun

49:13 (Y. Ali) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ty-hadith.html

There are various threads addressing the validity of Sahih Sittah (Six sound ahadith)

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):


Surah An-Nisa 4:59

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلاً (4:59)

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee alamri minkum fain tanazaAAtum fee shayin faruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntum tuminoona biAllahi waalyawmi alakhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu taweelan

4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.



There is one way to refer anything in which we differ to the Messenger, His Sunna which is contained within the Sahih Sitta (Six sound).

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Auth...of_the_Hadiths_

[- Qatada -]

kidcanman, thankyou for your willingness to discuss and learn :)

My Question: Can you prove to me that the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad?

The only real way we can know this is if we study Authentic history, with a Authentic chain - back to the time of Prophet Muhammad and his Companions - the generation which taught it to us.

So if you accept the Quran, you also accept the AUTHENTIC hadith, those statements which have Trustworthy, truthful narrators within them, leading all the way back to Prophet Muhammad.

[Argamemnon]

Asalam alykum.

Its not about who CLAIM to follow the way of Prophet Muhammad and his companions, rather its about those who actually DO follow their way and example.

Those who do that are ahlus sunnah (the people of the Qur'an and Sunnah).

Esselamu aleykum,

Every sincere Muslim obviously wants to follow the way of prophet Muhammed and the Sahaba, but it's not always easy to access that knowledge. But I digress.. let's go back to the main subject. I haven't really followed the whole thread and don't want to interrupt..

[- Qatada -]

Esselamu aleykum,

Every sincere Muslim obviously wants to follow the way of prophet Muhammed and the Sahaba, but it's not always easy to access that knowledge. But I digress.. let's go back to the main subject. I haven't really followed the whole thread and don't want to interrupt..

:salamext:


Akhi, i'm fully aware of what you are talking about since i have been through this period of confusion myself. However I will tell you that those who have claimed to follow Allah's Messenger and his companions, while claiming to be Ahlus Sunnah will infact turn away from the evidences when they are given to them, merely because they were brought up learning a different version of Islam.

For example, I am a pakistani. I know that there are sects within Pakistan who claim to be Ahlus Sunnah, they will claim to love Allah's Messenger more than anyone else, yet that love makes them imitate the Christians who worshipped Jesus, except this sect will worship Allah's slave and Messenger Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam). Even if you give them clear proofs from the Qur'an!


Those who follow the Sunnah in its totality are an Extreme Minority. Those who agree with it while not 100% following it are also a minority. Yet those who oppose it knowingly or unknowingly are the majority.

[Argamemnon]

:salamext:


Akhi, i'm fully aware of what you are talking about since i have been through this period of confusion myself. However I will tell you that those who have claimed to follow Allah's Messenger and his companions, while claiming to be Ahlus Sunnah will infact turn away from the evidences when they are given to them, merely because they were brought up learning a different version of Islam.

For example, I am a pakistani. I know that there are sects within Pakistan who claim to be Ahlus Sunnah, they will claim to love Allah's Messenger more than anyone else, yet that love makes them imitate the Christians who worshipped Jesus, except this sect will worship Allah's slave and Messenger Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam). Even if you give them clear proofs from the Qur'an!


Those who follow the Sunnah in its totality are an Extreme Minority. Those who agree with it while not 100% following it are also a minority. Yet those who oppose it knowingly or unknowingly are the majority.

:sl:

Very true akhi, I agree. On the other hand, I would never make tekfir on anyone who believes in Allah and his messenger (s.a.w.).. some extremists unfortunately do this. This person is kafir, that woman is kafir.. almost everybody is kafir except himself of course :D I condemn this attitude, only Allah s.w.t. knows who is or isn't a real kafir!

:w:

[- Qatada -]

:sl:

Very true akhi, I agree. On the other hand, I would never make tekfir on anyone who believes in Allah and his messenger (s.a.w.).. some extremists unfortunately do this. This person is kafir, that woman is kafir.. I'm against this attitude, only Allah s.w.t. knows who is or isn't a real kafir.
:w:

:wasalamex


Yeah :) I leave that to the people of knowledge, who sometimes have to do it to expose someone who may be spreading mis-truths [lies].

[kidcanman]

49:13 (Y. Ali) O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

Nation and tribes does not mean sects. Do you mean to tell me that Allah made us into sects that we may know each other? And if that is what it means then it refutes the hadith in topic because it goes on to say that the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous. which means it does not matter what sect you are in as long as you are righteous.

[kidcanman]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ty-hadith.html

There are various threads addressing the validity of Sahih Sittah (Six sound ahadith)

I read the thread and I did not see any new evidence that is different from what Qatada presented to me.

[kidcanman]

4:59 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.



There is one way to refer anything in which we differ to the Messenger, His Sunna which is contained within the Sahih Sitta (Six sound).

http://muslim-responses.com/The_Auth...of_the_Hadiths_

If you read my previous post then you would understand that I do not think that sunnah is a bad thing. My position is that we don't know if the sunnah that we have with us right now is the original.

I read your link and I don't fall into any of the catagories that the author addresses. #1. I don't think that all hadith are false. On the contrary, I follow many hadith and really I don't have a problem with the teachings. My position is that I think that many hadith are true, and I don't have a problem with almost any hadith, but I don't think that we are able to say unequivocally that what we have now is the original. #2 I am not a secularist as evidenced by my explanation in #1. #3 it does not matter if the first muslims said to follow what the prophet said because I agree with that. Where is the evidence that what we have now is what the prophet said?

[kidcanman]

kidcanman, thankyou for your willingness to discuss and learn :)

My Question: Can you prove to me that the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad?

The only real way we can know this is if we study Authentic history, with a Authentic chain - back to the time of Prophet Muhammad and his Companions - the generation which taught it to us.

So if you accept the Quran, you also accept the AUTHENTIC hadith, those statements which have Trustworthy, truthful narrators within them, leading all the way back to Prophet Muhammad.

Qatada this claim is a dangerous one, and this is the second time you have made a claim about Islam based upon "ahadith" and that is what I'm telling you. That you need to think twice. And all muslims do.

How can you say that the only way to prove the quran is authentic is through "ahadith" when the quran itself refutes this. The quran says if you think he forged it then produce a surah like it. The quran says if it came from any besides Allah then you would find in it many contradictions (like in "ahadith"). But I think your concern arises from the fact that there is supposedly more than one version of the quran. To this I say that you simply apply what Allah himself said and look for contradictions. But really there is another way. The quran is truth. So you can simply look at each verse and reason and see if what is says makes sense. If it does not then you make your choice. You can either think that perhaps you don't understand and continue to try and find the meaning, or else you can think that there is no doubt that the quran does not make sense and then you can reject it.

I just hope that you don't go around telling people that the only way to understand the quran is through "ahadith". This is a good example of how "ahadith" have caused muslims to make up ideas that are not found in the quran and that are perhaps contrary to truth.

And I put ahadith in quotes because I am not against following the teachings of the prophet, but there is no proof that what we have now are the orginal.

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Anonymous Poster:

There is a reason why you are hiding behind the Anonymous Account and Posting.

Just one question: If you are claiming to be a practicing Muslim, observing the (arkā al-Islām أركان الإسلام): Shahada, Salah, Saum, Zakat and Hajj, عقائد ʿaqā'id (Aqīdah): Tawhid,Mala'ika,Kutub,Rasul (Nubuwwah),Qiyammah and Qadar.

When time permits can you provide the forum the way you perform Salat from just the Quran. The Quran provides the commandment, describes different direction but the functions, movements are in the Sunna.

Surah Ali Imran 3:31

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (3:31)

Qul in kuntum tuhibboona Allaha faittabiAAoonee yuhbibkumu Allahu wayaghfir lakum thunoobakum waAllahu ghafoorun raheemun


3:31 (Y. Ali) Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

[sabr*]

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):


Surah Al-Ahzab 33:36

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا (33:36)

Wama kana limuminin wala muminatin itha qada Allahu warasooluhu amran an yakoona lahumu alkhiyaratu min amrihim waman yaAAsi Allaha warasoolahu faqad dalla dalalan mubeenan


33:36 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


kidman, this whole discussion has been extremely confusing because I did not understand your stance and what you believe. But now that you have clarified yourself, I will try to address your main point;

How can we be sure that Ahadith are direct from Prophet Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam)?

There is a science of Hadith called Ilm al Rijaal - Knowledge of Men. This knowledge quotes the biographies, knowledge, teachers/students, trustworthiness of known Narrators of Hadith, from the generations in which Ahadith were conveyed.

So a chain will look like this;

[Saying of Prophet Muhammad] - Companion/s who Narrates it - His Students' who heard it's Names - their Students - the Compilers in the famous Books i.e. al Bukhari, Muslim etc.

Each person in the hadith has to be trustworthy for it to be an Authentic hadith. Which we may accept in Islamic law. If there are liars/forgetful people in the chain, the scholars of that generation will have pointed out their mistakes in the books of Ilm al Rijaal [knowledge of men].


See this link for more examples;
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...g-ahadith.html



This is just a basic overview of the issue. If you have any misunderstandings or questions, please do ask. :)

[جوري]

kidman, this whole discussion has been extremely confusing because I did not understand your stance and what you believe.

You mean it isn't obvious?


:w:

[IslamicRevival]

Can you prove to me that the Qur'an we have today is the same Qur'an revealed to Prophet Muhammad?

How can we be sure that Ahadith are direct from Prophet Muhammad (sal Allah alaihi wasalam)?

Are you for real brother? What sort of questions are these?

[GuestFellow]

I am confused. What are we discussing here? First about moderates and extremists, then about sects and now about the Qur'an and Hadith? o_o

[kidcanman]

Just one question: If you are claiming to be a practicing Muslim, observing the (arkā al-Islām أركان الإسلام): Shahada, Salah, Saum, Zakat and Hajj, عقائد ʿaqā'id (Aqīdah): Tawhid,Mala'ika,Kutub,Rasul (Nubuwwah),Qiyammah and Qadar.

When time permits can you provide the forum the way you perform Salat from just the Quran. The Quran provides the commandment, describes different direction but the functions, movements are in the Sunna.
Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Allah advises us to pray five times a day. The details about prayer are traditional. I don't have a problem with the details but I recognize that there is no concrete evidence that I am obligated to follow them. So the answer to your question is: we are instructed to pray five times a day; the decisions concerning the details of the manner in which we pray are contingent upon our own opinion of what is proper (this may or may not include ahadith) and our sincere effort to please Allah.

[Ali Mujahidin]

There are no such things as "moderate" Muslims and "extremist" Muslims. There are only people who try their best to live, as far as humanly possible, according to the teachings of Islam and people who commit sins in the name of Islam. As a simple example, there are people who quote the Quranic verse to justify why they practice polygamy. What they omitted to do was to read to the end of the verse they quoted.

[truthseeker63]

I think I have a idea of what the Western media means by a moderate Muslim.

[Ali Mujahidin]

From what I can understand so far, the western media's idea of a moderate Muslim is one who subscribes to Western concepts of life and living, meaning a Muslim in name only and, for all practical purposes, might as well be a non-Muslim. To the western mindset, it is totally incomprehensible that any other way of thinking can be correct. In simple words, their guiding principle is "If you are not with us, you are against us".

[Ramadhan]

From what I can understand so far, the western media's idea of a moderate Muslim is one who subscribes to Western concepts of life and living, meaning a Muslim in name only and, for all practical purposes, might as well be a non-Muslim. To the western mindset, it is totally incomprehensible that any other way of thinking can be correct. In simple words, their guiding principle is "If you are not with us, you are against us".

This hits the mark. Even muslims now subscribe to this view. Islam is confined as mere rituals (shalah, fasting, that is if they still do it), and not a way of life.
For all we know, the world is already operating on dajjal-system: what look good and acceptable (by society) are actually paths to hell, and vice versa.

[Ali Mujahidin]

So let's get back to the basics. Islam is complete. There is no need to add or modify anything to make Islam suitable for our present world. We are not trying to win a popularity contest. We are here to appreciate the greatness of Allah's creation. Let me put it this way:

If you are invited to a rich man's house, you would not make a mess of the house by defecating all over the place, would you?

[جوري]

So let's get back to the basics. Islam is complete. There is no need to add or modify anything to make Islam suitable for our present world. We are not trying to win a popularity contest. We are here to appreciate the greatness of Allah's creation. Let me put it this way: If you are invited to a rich man's house, you would not make a mess of the house by defecating all over the place, would you?

I really appreciate your wisdom.. and masha'Allah reading your intro.. how amazing was it to raise ten children?

:w:

[needtorepent]

The phrase "moderate Muslim" is redundant.

[Woodrow]

Let us return to the original topic. this is not a thread about Ahadith.

[GuestFellow]

This hits the mark. Even muslims now subscribe to this view. Islam is confined as mere rituals (shalah, fasting, that is if they still do it), and not a way of life.
For all we know, the world is already operating on dajjal-system: what look good and acceptable (by society) are actually paths to hell, and vice versa.

:sl:

I think there is pressure on Muslims to modernise Islam. I think when some Muslims try to defend Islam, they are trying their best to please others to the extent where they abandon their own Islamic beliefs...though I hope it is unintentional.

Even Amnesty International or I think it was the University of Exeter report which said that the government in western countries are trying to make Muslims abandon certain beliefs within Islam.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Islam is complete and perfected and is also timeless and dynamic as in it adapts with time and will therefore be relevant until the end of this earth so it certainly does not need modernising. This is what liberalists and secularists will tell you or those with a lack of knolwedge of Islam. Islam will NEVER become like Christianity has become today which is like a religion so far from its scriptures that it is unrecognisable. It has become a religion with so many different denominations that each has different core beleifs from the other.

Clearly the west are putting pressure on Muslims using the media and other scare tactics to try and stop Muslims practising Islam and they are trying their utmost to liberalise our beliefs and practices and our response to that pressure should be to practice Islam more than ever before in its pure form.

Regardless of the evil tricks of the west using the media to try and defame Islam and brand it as a religion with medieval practices more people than EVER before are turning to Islam.

Those who talk about modernising certain beliefs in Islam do not even understand those beliefs in the first place and need to educate themselves about those beliefs before they come to such conclusions. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

You are either a fully practising Muslim or just Muslim by name. Allah also tells us this in the Qur'an to go FULLY into Islam and not become a part timer or moderate Muslim:

O believers enter into Islam completely and do not follow the footsteps of Shaitan, surely he is your clear-cut enemy. (Surah Al-Baqara, Ayah 208-210)

Therefore let us enter fully into Islam and make Islam our life not part of our life.

And Allah knows best in all matters

[Ali Mujahidin]

Myself, I didn't have the urge to be moderate or to be modern. Maybe that's because I have always been the odd man out ever since I could remember. So, for example, it is no big deal for me to wear Muslim attire (meaning beard, flowing robe and serban) even when I was operating my computer shop. Quite a few new customers did a double-take when they found out that ThisOldMan who looked like a discard from the "Lawrence of Arabia" movie could actually write computer programs. I have never found that practicing Islam is a hindrance to my professional work.

However I can empathize with our Muslim brothers and sisters who may feel compelled to tone down or even hide their Muslim identity so as to fit in, so to say. This is what I would suggest. Begin by making an effort to pray in jemaah. It is not coincidental that praying in jemaah is worth 25-27 times the pahala of performing salah alone. As a very rough analogy, consider how direct sales businesses are conducted. They organize weekly meetings to motivate their members to stay strong in their belief that they can make a lot of money, if they will just keep on going and keep on going to visit their prospects.

Take that first step today and may Allah keep you strong on the true path of Islam. Insha Allah.

[Little_Lion]

Someone once termed me a "hippie Muslim", and it is a term I wear with pride - I was called that because, the person said, "you're all about peace and love and helping everyone"! I think to that person I would probably be considered a "moderate Muslim" . . . I think that moderates, to Westerners, are those Muslims in whom they can see a reflection of themselves rather than someone without any connection to themselves in belief, action, and manner.

I think the west just needs to spend more time with more Muslims!

[Argamemnon]

Islam is complete and perfected and is also timeless and dynamic as in it adapts with time and will therefore be relevant until the end of this earth

Truth has to be told though, there are (and were) a great deal of ignorant Muslims who don't/didn't appreciate or understand this face of Islam. During the Ottoman period there were many Muslim shaikhs and scholars who were actively trying to block Ottoman technological advancements. In Islam there must be a balance between wordly life and the Hereafter. Therefore we shouldn't blindly follow certain scholars or shaikhs, even if they are popular. We shouldn't be afraid to disagree with them. In the glorious Qur'an Allah (swt) literally warns us "not to become like a flock of sheep".

[Thinker]

You say . . . “Islam is complete,” “Islam is perfect,” “Muslims should not feel the need to adapt or modernise or fit in”

The problems with these statements is that the Koran is almost totally focused on events of the 6th century, the sunnah is absolutely all about adopting the standards and values of the 6th century. And those standards are incompatible with every the 21st non-Muslim country.

Muhammad knew that there would be problems for Muslims living amongst the kuffar that’s why he (and God) commanded that anyone finding themselves in such a place must make hijrah but most of you choose to dress like a 6th century mujahadeen but live in the security and comfort of 21st century land of the kuffar. You pick and choose which of God’s commands you choose to obey and think that because you’ve got a beard God will forgive you!!

[Ali Mujahidin]

because you’ve got a beard God will forgive you!!

Just curious. How did you come to that conclusion?

[kidcanman]

You say . . . “Islam is complete,” “Islam is perfect,” “Muslims should not feel the need to adapt or modernise or fit in”

The problems with these statements is that the Koran is almost totally focused on events of the 6th century, the sunnah is absolutely all about adopting the standards and values of the 6th century. And those standards are incompatible with every the 21st non-Muslim country.

Muhammad knew that there would be problems for Muslims living amongst the kuffar that’s why he (and God) commanded that anyone finding themselves in such a place must make hijrah but most of you choose to dress like a 6th century mujahadeen but live in the security and comfort of 21st century land of the kuffar. You pick and choose which of God’s commands you choose to obey and think that because you’ve got a beard God will forgive you!!

The quran is not totally focused on the 6th century. We believe that the quran is from Allah. The majority of the book does not directly address the events that occurred at the time of its revelation. The quran gives instructions for living a good life and it also presents information to help an individual succeed spiritually.

The information contained in the quran is still relevant in the 21st century.

Some people argue that it is virtually impossible to correctly follow islam in the West.

This argument holds weight in the eyes of people who are more inclined to think that a person must strive to live exactly as the prophet did in order to correctly follow islam. That is their opinion (and I think it is a valid one).

You correctly pointed out , islam is absolutely compatible with many 21st century Muslim countries.

You observed the hypocrisy of muslims that focus on imitating the prophet when it comes to practicing Islam; even though just by living in the west they indulge in countless acts that are against the practices of the prophet.

I agree with that observation.

But your claim that Islam is not compatible with 21st century Western countries is an ignorant one.

You have not read, or do not understand, enough about the quran to make that claim.

If you did understand the quran and ahadith than you would have accounted for the different ways in which muslims practice the religion; some preferring to lean more towards the quran and some the sunnah, and others who don't care.

And if you did understand the quran and the sunnah than you would have understood "What a "moderate" muslim is".

What incompatible information in the quran are you referring to?

[Thinker]

Just curious. How did you come to that conclusion?

It seems to me, from what I have seen on this forum and elsewhere that Muslims in the UK are even more ‘devout’ than Muslims living is dar al Islam and I have formed the view that this is because they know they are committing a sin by not making hijrah and try to make up for that by being even more Muslim in other ways. Hence you grow the beard and wear the style of clothing worn by Muhammad.

And, getting back on thread – what is a moderate Muslim? You must know that looking like a member of the Taliban is not consistent with ‘moderation’ and is consistent with extremism yet you choose to do it because you hope in doing so God will forgive you for not complying with his command in Qur'an verse 4:97.

[Thinker]

But your claim that Islam is not compatible with 21st century Western countries is an ignorant one.

You have not read, or do not understand, enough about the quran to make that claim.

If you did understand the quran and ahadith than you would have accounted for the different ways in which muslims practice the religion; some preferring to lean more towards the quran and some the sunnah, and others who don't care.

And if you did understand the quran and the sunnah than you would have understood "What a "moderate" muslim is".

What incompatible information in the quran are you referring to?

Islam is only compatible with 21st western values and culture if you can find a scholar who will tell you that the literal word of the Qur’an and Hadith doesn’t actually mean what it say but should be interpreted as meaning something else. And, most Muslims choose to believe whichever scholar interprets the text in a way which suites them. You choose to take verses a, b and c literally but x, y and z not literally. The problem with interpreting a verse other than literally is to suggest that God wasn’t clear in what he said and meant something else – God made a mistake!!

[aamirsaab]

Islam is only compatible with 21st western values and culture if you can find a scholar who will tell you that the literal word of the Qur’an and Hadith doesn’t actually mean what it say but should be interpreted as meaning something else. And, most Muslims choose to believe whichever scholar interprets the text in a way which suites them. You choose to take verses a, b and c literally but x, y and z not literally. The problem with interpreting a verse other than literally is to suggest that God wasn’t clear in what he said and meant something else – God made a mistake!!

You're supposed to use your brain when reading the Qur'an. Following it blindly will get you nowhere. Some verses are literal, some require interpretation.

Also, you're being very judgemental. It's laughable actually given that I myself do not fit any of your western-muslim stereotypes.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Hence you grow the beard and wear the style of clothing worn by Muhammad

Please be informed that any Muslim who grows a beard and wears the style of clothing worn by the Holy Prophet, for the purpose of showing that he is a better Muslim than other Muslims have booked himself a permanent place in hell. To practice Islam and to follow the Sunnah for the purpose of showing off one's piety is a major sin and is expressly forbidden in Islam.

[Little_Lion]

If I dressed like an extremist, I would find a quick trip to the trunk of a car, a dirt county road, and the business end of a sawed-off shotgun in my future in short order. But I still have no problem with following the Qur'an in dress . . . headscarves are not uncommon out here on the Great Plains, especially in the summertime, and in the winter, for a college student an oversized hoodie with the hood pulled up works great!

I think one of the greater questions is, what is meant by "interpretation"? Is it, to interpret the Qur'an to get out of following it? I don't think anyone here would advocate that. But to interpret the Qur'an to look at our modern world and see how its changes can still help us to serve Allah, or serve him better? That I think is something completely different.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Slight detour:

I teach English. Used to be I would put on a shirt and tie when I teach so as to look the part, so to say. Then one day, I decided to teach wearing my robe, serban and even kohl. My students, both Muslims and Buddhists, were surprised and asked a lot of questions about my attire. It gave me the opportunity to do da'wah in a very productive way. Now I wear my Muslim attire all the time. My white beard is now red from the application of henna. I am also keeping my hair long. Actually it is easier to just shave bald, like I used to do, but the Ahadith said that the Holy Prophet kept his hair long, so I am trying to find out how it is like to do so.

I am sharing this because I found out that putting on Muslim attire does not impair my ability to interact with other people, both Muslims and Muslims-to-be. Hope this will inspire more brothers and sisters to put on Muslim attire. Insha Allah.

[kidcanman]

Islam is only compatible with 21st western values and culture if you can find a scholar who will tell you that the literal word of the Qur’an and Hadith doesn’t actually mean what it say but should be interpreted as meaning something else. And, most Muslims choose to believe whichever scholar interprets the text in a way which suites them. You choose to take verses a, b and c literally but x, y and z not literally. The problem with interpreting a verse other than literally is to suggest that God wasn’t clear in what he said and meant something else – God made a mistake!!

What incompatible verses are you referring to? I addressed the verses that you cited in post #39, in post #59.

Forget about pasting articles from the internet. Bring the most incompatible verse in your opinion so that we can get to the bottom of the matter.

[Zafran]

It seems to me, from what I have seen on this forum and elsewhere that Muslims in the UK are even more ‘devout’ than Muslims living is dar al Islam and I have formed the view that this is because they know they are committing a sin by not making hijrah and try to make up for that by being even more Muslim in other ways. Hence you grow the beard and wear the style of clothing worn by Muhammad.

And, getting back on thread – what is a moderate Muslim? You must know that looking like a member of the Taliban is not consistent with ‘moderation’ and is consistent with extremism yet you choose to do it because you hope in doing so God will forgive you for not complying with his command in Qur'an verse 4:97.

You understaning of Dar al Islam is YOURS alone. Its also funny coming from a non muslim who can tell muslims when they are sinning or not just becasue the way they are dressed subhan Allah now we have non muslims telling Muslims what haram and halal is.

[Woodrow]

If I dressed like an extremist, I would find a quick trip to the trunk of a car, a dirt county road, and the business end of a sawed-off shotgun in my future in short order. But I still have no problem with following the Qur'an in dress . . . headscarves are not uncommon out here on the Great Plains, especially in the summertime, and in the winter, for a college student an oversized hoodie with the hood pulled up works great!

I think one of the greater questions is, what is meant by "interpretation"? Is it, to interpret the Qur'an to get out of following it? I don't think anyone here would advocate that. But to interpret the Qur'an to look at our modern world and see how its changes can still help us to serve Allah, or serve him better? That I think is something completely different.

LOL When I am down on Pine ridge or in Rapid I often get mistaken for being native and get asked what tribe I am from. Next comment is "You are the first Indian I ever saw with a long beard" The wasichu seem to identify my clothing as being native, but the Lakotah, Makota, Nakotah, Oglala and Dakotah recognize instantly I am not Native American.

[Ramadhan]

Islam is only compatible with 21st western values and culture if you can find a scholar who will tell you that the literal word of the Qur’an and Hadith doesn’t actually mean what it say but should be interpreted as meaning something else. And, most Muslims choose to believe whichever scholar interprets the text in a way which suites them. You choose to take verses a, b and c literally but x, y and z not literally. The problem with interpreting a verse other than literally is to suggest that God wasn’t clear in what he said and meant something else – God made a mistake!!

Obviously you havent met a single muslim in real life.

stop hiding inside the cave, and come out to meet few true muslims in real life and you would be surprised to know that many muslims are living the 21st century successfully while still keeping their faith and followingh qur'an and sunnah.

[Ali Mujahidin]

stop hiding inside the cave

Maybe being inside a cave helps the thinking process? So as not to be polluted by other people's thinking processes? WaLLahu aklam.