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truth finder
11-01-2010, 01:12 PM
This personal story is the product of my own struggle with doubt and questions about my own belief, when I was going through a very difficult time in my life. "Do I have my current belief, just because I blindly believe what I was taught to believe by others or because in the worst case scenario I am brainwashed by the whole religious system just like in former communist countries?" This thought had bothered me for a while. But I did not tell others about my struggle for fear that I would be mocked and rejected by them. I really wanted to find the answer myself and started to read the whole Bible. Of course we were not supposed to question our belief and our scripture. But with courage and curiosity I decided to start my journey of investigation. I read the whole scripture with the mind that I might have been educated to believe what I was told by others or that I might have been brainwashed by the whole religious system. During my own investigation to find the truth, I met my God personally and intimately instead of rejecting him. I found God is very close to me instead of far away.

About twenty years ago I came to the United States for a PhD in theoretical physics. I was an ambitious young student who wanted to make a major breakthrough discovery in physics, earning recognition and awards from physics community and general public. During this period I became a Christian. After finishing the PhD we went to Europe for two years of research and came to the current place about ten years ago. Because I wanted to continue scientific research in academia as a professor, I worked hard to build up more research experience to apply for a faculty position at universities. So far I had five interviews with various universities and five more in industry. In particular job competition in academia is so strong that typically more than one hundred people apply for one opening from all over the world. Since usually three candidates are invited for interview, having an interview in academia and industry alike was a very exciting experience with a lot of expectation. Because of this high expectation, however, the disappointment following after failure is also tremendous, and unfortunately it came to me as reality as many as ten times in a row. On one occasion the chairperson of the search committee talked to me privately that he would be most pleased if I come, but it did not happen. I simply could not accept the reality that I have got none of them! One failure after another has led me into deep disappointment and bitterness toward everything. Furthermore the majority of my friends have already reached their career goals. From the worldly point of view, many of them did not do better than me at school and their research was not better than mine after the PhD. Nothing happened the way I wanted it and the way they should have happened. I could not stand the reality any more.

Why must I struggle here for so many years for nothing? “God, are you really taking care of me? What is wrong with me? Are you angry with me? This world is surely not fair!” Out of desperation I came to the point where I screamed to God, “God, I acknowledge you saved me from eternal condemnation through faith in Jesus Christ, but I do not think you continue to care for me afterwards. It seems as if you were only interested in bringing me into your family, but leaving me behind helpless. God, now you are making a terrible mistake to me. You said in 1 Corinthians 10:13, ‘No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.’ God, it does not apply to me. This trial is certainly beyond what I can bear. I am already crushed. Instead of getting closer to you as a result of this trial, I am getting more sour to you and more distant from you. God, you are miscalculating about me. God, I am really disappointed with you. If you give me a job today at Harvard University, the best university in the world, I may accept it but I will never thank you because of that. The words, thanks and gratitude, have left me for good and now there are no such words in my dictionary. I assure you, God, that these words will never come out of my mouth again until I breathe my last breath!”

Then, to make things even worse, I started having a health problem not long ago. In the past ten months I had to have two surgeries for the first time in my life. Besides these operations, I had to go through various tests to check if the cancer in my stomach has spread to the other parts of the body. I thought people with this kind of disease were living on a different planet, but suddenly found myself stepping one of my feet onto that unknown world. Everything started falling apart in my life. My life seemed to be being finished. I reached the bottom of my life. I literally cried out to God. “God, what is this now? I am still young. I have a young family who totally depend on me. What do you want more from me? Are you determined to destroy me completely, both in and out?” To my surprise and shame I found years of my Christian belief rooted on sand, shaky and unstable ground. Although I went to the church every Sunday and read the Bible regularly, I did not really come close to God to know and meet him personally. At that time my belief was all about a religion trying to keep the rules, rituals and traditions out of duty or out of fear of punishment, not about a loving relationship with the Creator of my very own soul. I had to begin to research the bible to find out what trust really is, and most of all who God really is.

Exodus 14:13-14 is one of the passages I found very encouraging and instructing to help me get out of the pain of self-condemnation, self-pity and self-denial. In the midst of trial I was able to understand and experience what trust is. This passage eventually helped me replace my anger with thanks and my fear with trust, and restore my broken relationship with God. Here is the bible text in Exodus 14:13-14. This is what Moses told the people of Israel terrified in front of the Red sea while watching the mighty Egyptian army chasing after them behind. ‘Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the LORD will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. The LORD will fight for you; you need only to be still.’ During the storm I met my personal God for the first time, not the kind of God I speculated in my imagination. Before God, I was able to see what was really at the bottom of my heart: Pride, arrogance, stubbornness, self-righteousness, superiority and other self-centered desires disguised as something decent. In fact I was trying to use God for my own self-actualization. God was my personal Genie. I simply fell on my knees and confessed to God, “You are my Creator and I am your mere creature. Without you I am only a dust floating around in the massive universe without meaning and purpose. Only with you I find the meaning and true identity of my existence.” I am happy my “great” sin was completely forgiven, because on the cross Jesus Christ already paid the penalty on my behalf. Before God, my own problems that once looked very great became much smaller. They were eventually resolved not the way I wanted it originally, but the way that turned out to be the best later. Now all things seem to have returned to what they were before except two things: surgery scars and the heart. Yes, now I have a new heart! The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart.

I believe our God allowed all these trials to me for a purpose, for a reason. I do not think all the disappointment, frustration, bitterness and fear I have gone through were meaningless. As I look back now, I believe God allowed me to go through them in order for my faith to grow to the next level of maturity, which otherwise would not be possible. Job 23:10 says, ‘But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.’ Romans 8:28 says, ‘And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.’ Now I thank God even for the cancer I struggled with recently. Because of the disease, I learned to love and trust my God more, learned to be more thankful for everything, learned to have more compassion for other people, learned to resist better the temptation of lust and selfishness. God’s words have an amazing power that turned my anger, disappointment and fear into joy, thanks and freedom. I was transformed from a caterpillar into a butterfly that flies high into the world of the love of God. Thanks! Finally in the middle of the suffering I was able to taste this precious word that once was lost but now was found. Now I have a new heart of joy, thanks and freedom. Now my spiritual walk with God is really the process of correcting my misunderstandings about him one at a time, developing a more intimate and loving relationship with the Creator of the universe and my own soul.

I have reached the current spiritual stage as a result of doubt and questions on my belief. I strongly encourage you to do the same to meet God more intimately. God is not far way, but very close and personal. The infinite God cannot be defined by a few lines of any religious rules and traditions. In fact this is one of the greatest mistakes people make, namely, not seeing God as He really is but seeing God as a few lines of their religious rules and traditions are! The infinite God waits to be explored and known more by His creatures. The infinitely gracious God is not offended by honest questions and doubt of His tiny creatures. According to the Bible, God was not bothered by our honesty, but actually encouraged it to know Him more intimately and personally! This I found out by myself hard in the middle of trial.
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Woodrow
11-01-2010, 02:09 PM
We all are obligated to question and ask more questions. It is through these questioning periods we come to understand the reality of Allaah(swt). We are not to be blind followers we have to enforce our faith with knowledge that comes from genuine questioning.

We need not fear in our quest to learn reasons for our beliefs. We each our responsibility for our own actions and none of us can place what we believe upon the teachings of others. We can not use the excuse that we were led astray. It is our obligation to question all things and learn.
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truth finder
11-01-2010, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
We all are obligated to question and ask more questions. It is through these questioning periods we come to understand the reality of Allaah(swt). We are not to be blind followers we have to enforce our faith with knowledge that comes from genuine questioning.

We need not fear in our quest to learn reasons for our beliefs. We each our responsibility for our own actions and none of us can place what we believe upon the teachings of others. We can not use the excuse that we were led astray. It is our obligation to question all things and learn.
I fully agree with you, brother.
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Insaanah
11-01-2010, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
At that time my belief was all about a religion trying to keep the rules, rituals and traditions out of duty or out of fear of punishment, not about a loving relationship with the Creator of my very own soul.
In Islam we are encouraged to obey Allah, out of Love (amongst other things) for Him:

"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 3:31)

Love for God is not divorced from keeping rules and rituals, on the contrary, it is incorporated in them.

Originally Posted by truth finder
Now my spiritual walk with God is really the process of correcting my misunderstandings about him one at a time
I am glad to hear it.

To correct any misunderstandings about God, one must go back to the very concept of God. I encourage you and invite you to explore the concept of God in Islam. A concept that is simple, logical, makes sense and is easy to understand.

• There is One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, essences or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.
• He is Loving and Forgiving, but also Severe in punishment, yet He is Fair and the Most Just, such is the perfectly balanced nature of Allah.

No trinity, no sons, no 3-in-1s, just One, in the truest sense of the word.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe in all God's messengers as they were, the noblest of humanity chosen and sent to guide and warn mankind. We neither reject any of them, nor exaggerate the status of any of them to something it wasn't, i.e. divine.

This world is our test. Nobody has taken the test for us. As it would not be allowed in this world for someone to sit your test on your behalf, so such an injustice is not allowed with God, for God is the most Just. Each person is responsible for their sins, and on the Day of Judgement we will either pass or fail. It is this, coupled with God's Mercy, that we hope will enable us to pass. We worship God with a balance of love, hope and fear.

Originally Posted by truth finder
I strongly encourage you to do the same to meet God more intimately.
While this may be new to you, Muslims already meet God intimately, at least five times a day, when in prostration, and when remembering, glorifying, praising, and thanking God even when going about their daily business, be it walking down the street, commuting, when in the kitchen, even praising God for having relieved them when coming out of the bathroom. And those of my Muslim brothers and sisters who are fortunate enough to wake up for Qiyaam al Layl, worshipping God in the last third of the night, forsake their beds for the love of God. However there is much we can all do to become closer still.

Most people who become Muslim, do so after questioning, reasoning, and learning - they come to realise that in Islam they do not need to separate their spiritual selves from their logical selves, because the concepts actually make sense.

Peace.
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M.I.A.
11-01-2010, 09:07 PM
im glad you posted after you had found happiness and acceptance of your god.. if you were to post your story at an incomplete stage the responses you have been given may have been totally different.
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truth finder
11-01-2010, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

In Islam we are encouraged to obey Allah, out of Love (amongst other things) for Him:

"Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (Qur'an 3:31)

Love for God is not divorced from keeping rules and rituals, on the contrary, it is incorporated in them.



I am glad to hear it.

To correct any misunderstandings about God, one must go back to the very concept of God. I encourage you and invite you to explore the concept of God in Islam. A concept that is simple, logical, makes sense and is easy to understand.

• There is One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, cousins, grandparents or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, essences or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.
• He is Loving and Forgiving, but also Severe in punishment, yet He is Fair and the Most Just, such is the perfectly balanced nature of Allah.

No trinity, no sons, no 3-in-1s, just One, in the truest sense of the word.

Jesus (peace be upon him) is one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe in all God's messengers as they were, the noblest of humanity chosen and sent to guide and warn mankind. We neither reject any of them, nor exaggerate the status of any of them to something it wasn't, i.e. divine.

This world is our test. Nobody has taken the test for us. As it would not be allowed in this world for someone to sit your test on your behalf, so such an injustice is not allowed with God, for God is the most Just. Each person is responsible for their sins, and on the Day of Judgement we will either pass or fail. It is this, coupled with God's Mercy, that we hope will enable us to pass. We worship God with a balance of love, hope and fear.


While this may be new to you, Muslims already meet God intimately, at least five times a day, when in prostration, and when remembering, glorifying, praising, and thanking God even when going about their daily business, be it walking down the street, commuting, when in the kitchen, even praising God for having relieved them when coming out of the bathroom. And those of my Muslim brothers and sisters who are fortunate enough to wake up for Qiyaam al Layl, worshipping God in the last third of the night, forsake their beds for the love of God. However there is much we can all do to become closer still.

Most people who become Muslim, do so after questioning, reasoning, and learning - they come to realise that in Islam they do not need to separate their spiritual selves from their logical selves, because the concepts actually make sense.

Peace.
Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.

First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). We do not exaggerate the status of Jesus, but accept him as he revealed by what he said and more importantly by what he did. Do you not agree that the almighty God could reveal Himself or His presence to human beings in a hundred different ways if He wants? Do you limit God’s ability and power?

You mentioned “logical”, “makes sense”, “common sense” several times. I agree we need to use our common sense when it is most appropriate. By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his creation? Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his mysterious birth? There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God. By definition a miracle is something that we cannot understand with a common sense or logic. Basically you deny all miraculous things done by God, because you cannot understand them with your logic and common sense. As Isaiah admitted, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9), there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.
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Ğħαrєєвαħ
11-01-2010, 10:04 PM
Peace truthfinder
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.

First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods. We worship one God that has been revealed to us in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). We do not exaggerate the status of Jesus, but accept him as he revealed by what he said and more importantly by what he did. Do you not agree that the almighty God could reveal Himself or His presence to human beings in a hundred different ways if He wants? Do you limit God’s ability and power?

You mentioned “logical”, “makes sense”, “common sense” several times. I agree we need to use our common sense when it is most appropriate. By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his creation? Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO. Then, why do you believe his mysterious birth? There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God. By definition a miracle is something that we cannot understand with a common sense or logic. Basically you deny all miraculous things done by God, because you cannot understand them with your logic and common sense. As Isaiah admitted, "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9), there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.
Jesus(peace be unto him) worships god many times in the bible, now is God worshipping god? Mary (peace be unto her) the mother of Jesus (peace be unto him) worshipped god, is she worshipping her son? You mention "Logical" i dont see any logic in this, as an individual this makes no sense to me. We as muslims know that God can do what he wills, but not of that which does not suit him. If he can guide us humans, create the trees, the sky, the river, the ocean, the brain, the eye (the human body is a miracle) and everything that exists, then he can also control the world without entering it. But as your belief is that God the creator of the heavens and the earth and all that exists within it has to die for our sins? whats the point of heaven and hell? The reason of "Justice" is really nowhere to exist in this case, it seems pointless. If God dies for your sins, then that means you can do what so ever you will in this world and then the concept of "repentance" makes no sense. Logic is out of the Question because there is absolutely no Logic.

The birth of Jesus (May the blessings of God be unto him) was a miracle. I agree we dont need any common sense or logic in miracles otherwise it would not be a "Miracle".

Gods power is Unlimited. By the way would you care to explain how God created the universe out of nothing?

I hope i have not offended you and hope i answered some of your Questions.

Peace
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Insaanah
11-01-2010, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your time sharing your comment with me.
My pleasure.

Originally Posted by truth finder
Do you limit God’s ability and power?
It is current day Christianity that limits and denigrates God's ability and power.

To suggest that God had to beget a son and then let that son (who is also God, as it is a different way he has revealed himself according to what you are saying) be killed in order to be able to forgive people's sins if they accept that, and to prove His love to the world, that is what limits His power:

  • That He was unable forgive people without making a person (who is Himself) die.
  • He could not prove His love to the world without making this sacrifice.
  • He could not prevent himself from dying, like humans.
  • And the injustice of making one person carry the burden of the sins of mankind is a whole separate issue.

We believe that God is All-Powerful to do anything that befits His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty.

Christians often use the argument that God can do anything. God can do anything that befits His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty, and will only do such things as do befit His Majesty. He cannot lie, cannot steal, and even if He dislikes someone, He cannot kick that person out of His All-Encompassing Dominion. He cannot be ignorant of anything that goes on in the world. He cannot die, for He is Eternal, Immortal. He cannot be unjust by burdening all of mankind's sins onto one innocent person. And He cannot beget offspring or perform such other lowly human functions. Because none of these things befit His Glorious and Transcendent Majesty. And Allah Himself has told us this many times in the Qur'an, which is 100% His word. Here is the translation of just a few verses out of many:

"It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is." (Qur'an 19:35)

"They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son.
For it is not consonant with the Majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
There is no one in the heavens and earth but that he comes to the Most Merciful as a servant." (Qur'an 19:88-93)

Originally Posted by truth finder
There is always something miraculous beyond our understanding, whenever it has to do with God.
When it comes to the concept of God, that should be logical and easy to understand, because this is the foundation the faith is based upon. Once that is clear, logical and easy to understand, then you accept everything else in the religion. If the foundation itself doesn't make sense, then what of anything else? Look at the bullet points in my previous post above, as an example. It makes sense, is simple, and easy to understand for anyone.

Why would God give you a concept you don't understand, can't explain, doesn't make sense, and then tell you that your salvation depends on believing that? A belief that you have to resort to eggs, water and rocks etc to try to explain?

If we took a child with no prior knowledge of either religion right now and explained the bullet points in my previous post above, or explained to him that there is one God revealed in three different ways (according to you), one of those ways is human (but also god) and had to be killed by humans so God could forgive mankind's sins and prove his love to the world, what will make more sense? What is more God-like to the child? Surely the child will think (amongst other things), "A God that dies? What kind of a god is that, doesn't sound very God like if he dies like humans."

The concept of God in Islam makes sense. It follows that if that does, then you accept everything else.

We do not deny miracles, we are talking about the very concept of God. And that is the beauty of Islam. Let's take a non-religious person, who does not believe in miracles, who sees the simplicity and logic of the Islamic concept of God, and then believes it. He doesn't need to believe in miracles to understand the concept of God. Once he understands the concept of God however, then he also comes to believe that God can make miracles happen.

That is why I said that as far as the foundation of our faith goes, we do not need to separate our spiritual selves from our logical selves, for both agree harmoniously. All praise be to Allah.

Originally Posted by truth finder
there are many things with God that we cannot even understand by our reasoning. Here our logic or common sense is not a reliable source.
True. However, as I said, the main foundation the faith is built upon, the concept of God, must make sense, and in Islam, it does. Our reliable source is the Qur'an, which is 100% the word of God. There are no human authors, and no versions, and it is fully preserved.

Peace.
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Ramadhan
11-02-2010, 06:28 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
First I want to correct your misunderstanding of our faith. We do not worship 3 gods
You are one of extremely few christians who do not worship 3 gods. Majority christians worship 3 gods.

Christians I know normally pray to the father, and often to the son, but very rarely to the holy spirit.

It seems holy spirit is the lesser god.
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Ramadhan
11-02-2010, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
By the way, do you know how God created the universe from nothing? You answer is most likely to be NO.
huh?

Even a 5 yo muslim child would know that God created the universe from nothing.

Do christians know that according to bible, the universe is created in exactly 6 DAYS EARTH, and then God had to rest after that? (he was tired? na'udzubillah)

read your own bible with open mind, mister, and then read the Qur'an with the same open mind, and see the difference.


Originally Posted by truth finder
Then, why do you believe his creation?
What kind of non-sensical rambling is this?
are you sure you are writing for the right forum?

Originally Posted by truth finder
Do you know how Jesus was born of a virgin? You answer is most likely to be NO.
Are you kidding me?

Go back, read the qur'an with good translation and preferably with tafseer as well, and then come back here.


And mention, [O Muhammad], in the Book [the story of] Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place toward the east.

She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh [angel Jibrael (Gabriel)], and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.

She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."

She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

He said, "Thus [it will be]; your Lord says, 'It is easy for Me, and We will make him a sign to the people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter [already] decreed.' "

So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place.

And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"

But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

"And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.

"So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"

At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!

"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"

But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"

"He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"

"And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;

"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;

"So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.

[Jesus said], "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."

But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!



(QS. Maryam: 16-37)
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Amat Allah
11-02-2010, 01:40 PM
May Allah make you recover asap my respected brother truth finder and all sick people around the world and May Allah lead your way to the path of the endless happiness and give you the best of this life and of the hereafter Ameeeeen

take care of your self ...

leaving you under Allah`s sight...
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IAmZamzam
11-02-2010, 03:37 PM
truth finder, you must understand, we are not denying (well, I guess I can't speak for anyone but myself) that Trinitarianism is supposedly monotheistic, but as the old saying goes, you can say with your lips that God is one but also three yet you can't truly believe it deep down inside because it's just words. Let me demonstrate with this old and favorite syllogism of mine:

1. Monotheism is simple and comprehensible.
2. The Trinity doctrine is complex and incomprehensible.
3. Therefore, the Trinity is not monotheistic.
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truth finder
11-02-2010, 05:12 PM
I thank several readers very much for taking time sharing their views with me. I agree with some of their points, while I disagree with others. In various places readers have asked me several questions about the necessity of the sacrificial death of Jesus for our sins. In response to their questions I try to answer them in this post. The sacrificial death of Jesus may look illogical at first glance, but it is not difficult to understand it if you are familiar with Torah. God does things not arbitrarily, but only in the way he prescribed. Have you ever read Torah, which is part of the Old Testament in the Bible? Have you read Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, and understood the spiritual implications of them?

The significant portion of Torah was devoted to the animal sacrifice. It was absolutely required before starting a fellowship between God and the people of Israel. The animal sacrifice devised by God reveals the characters of God, both his justice (The consequence of our sins must be always paid) and his love (The consequence of our sins is paid on pure animals instead of us to spare us from the punishment). In other words, complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. But God is so holy that even the smallest blemish of impurity would evaporate before Him. “Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished (Exodus34:7). “For the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Therefore, if man is to come to God, his sins must have been justly punished. In order to allow man to come to God, He permitted man to "cover" his sins by sacrificing pure lambs in their place. By laying hands on the animals, the sins of people were symbolically transferred to the animals that must be pure and without defect according to God’s specific instruction. Then the animals were slaughtered and burned completely as the punishment of our sins on our behalf, which eventually allowed man to come to God.

In fact this was a prophetic shadow of things to come, where God would sacrifice the Lamb of God, sinless Jesus Christ, to cleanse away the sin of man, that whosoever would take His sacrifice for their own, would be able to stand in the presence of God. So, God's justice and His love are both fulfilled in the sacrifice. Instead of pouring his wrath and curse of judgement on his children because of our sins, God chose to pour them on Jesus to spare us from the punishment. “He was crushed for our iniquities” (Isaiah 53:5)”. The consequence of sin is death so Christ died on the cross to pay the price on our behalf. The animal sacrifice, which was an absolute requirement before God in the Old Testament time, was not an accident but had a very important prophetic implication for our salvation. The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29) God’s way revealed in Torah is that complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. It may be quite different from what you wish it to be, but that is God’s way. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12)

This is just my answer in response to the questions of readers. I hope the administrators will not delete it just as they did so in the past.
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M.I.A.
11-02-2010, 08:29 PM
if jesus peace and blessings be upon him took from peoples sins then they were the sins of those around him and im sure he left you a teaching so you could do the same with your lives.
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IAmZamzam
11-02-2010, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. It may be quite different from what you wish it to be, but that is God’s way.
If payment is required--at all--it is not forgiveness. Period. Forgiveness is not one person paying another person's debt but the debt being simply erased, by one who does not need anything and has no reason to demand anything except our own repentance. There is no escaping the basic fact of the contradiction in terms in pardoning entailing or containing punishment, whatever Old Testament re-interpretations you may pull out in a vain attempt to justify it. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard the animal sacrifice defense before. We've heard it presented much less unconvincingly, though always unconvincingly to some high degree. Nor is the other inevitable defense, which I'm sure is next on your itenerary--the vague and circular appeal to "the law"--going to fly. Say that you heard of a judge pardoning a guilty man from his death sentence and, with the very next bang of his gavel, sentencing himself to death in the culprit's stead. You ask what on earth is going on and your friend told you, "That's the law, so it's gotta be like this. They used to do something similar in the old days and this is just the continuation and consummation of it." What would your reaction be? To think that the story about the judge probably isn't true, especially given what you believe about the judge's wisdom and moral character? To think that there is something seriously wrong with the law and tradition being spoken of, and therefore that if someone told you that a person of the judge’s wisdom and character wrote that law himself then they were obviously wrong? Or would you just shrug and go, “Oh, well, if it’s the law then….”
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truth finder
11-03-2010, 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
If payment is required--at all--it is not forgiveness. Period. Forgiveness is not one person paying another person's debt but the debt being simply erased, by one who does not need anything and has no reason to demand anything except our own repentance. There is no escaping the basic fact of the contradiction in terms in pardoning entailing or containing punishment, whatever Old Testament re-interpretations you may pull out in a vain attempt to justify it. You seem to be under the impression that we've never heard the animal sacrifice defense before. We've heard it presented much less unconvincingly, though always unconvincingly to some high degree. Nor is the other inevitable defense, which I'm sure is next on your itenerary--the vague and circular appeal to "the law"--going to fly. Say that you heard of a judge pardoning a guilty man from his death sentence and, with the very next bang of his gavel, sentencing himself to death in the culprit's stead. You ask what on earth is going on and your friend told you, "That's the law, so it's gotta be like this. They used to do something similar in the old days and this is just the continuation and consummation of it." What would your reaction be? To think that the story about the judge probably isn't true, especially given what you believe about the judge's wisdom and moral character? To think that there is something seriously wrong with the law and tradition being spoken of, and therefore that if someone told you that a person of the judge’s wisdom and character wrote that law himself then they were obviously wrong? Or would you just shrug and go, “Oh, well, if it’s the law then….”
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I think it is not totally unreasonable.

If a man killed several people brutally and was caught later, should the judge release him simply because of his sincere repentance? Then where is the justice and righteousness of the nation? What about the pain of victim's families? If a man stole a large amount of money from the national bank causing a catastrophe on the economy and was caught later, should the judge let him go simply due to his sincere repentance? What about the pain of many people? Where is the justice and righteousness of the society? Please do not think lightly our sins and rebellions against God, which are not less severe than the above examples to the eyes of God. The justice and righteousness of God requires the appropriate consequence of our sins must be paid in addition to sincere repentance. Your argument may be "logical" if you regard your sins and rebellions against God very lightly.

If you consider Torah as garbage, you do not need to bother yourself with God's way or God's law. We Christians believe that God had revealed his attributes, his way and his law as he interacted with the people of Israel. In fact God chose Israel as an object lesson for the whole world in order to show how sinful we (represented by Israel) are and reveal his characters while dealing with sinful human beings.
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IAmZamzam
11-03-2010, 03:54 PM
I am not regarding sin lightly: you are regarding grace lightly. That's the main problem with Christianity: it has to compromise the idea by tempering it with its mutually exclusive opposite. You can't allow yourself to accept the idea that God is beyond all needs, all parsity, and all obligations, and therefore has no incentive to appease the wrongly vengeful emotions of a wronged party or follow rules established by societies. And I don't appreciate your putting words in mouth either: I never said anything about the Torah being garbage. Already, so early in a debate, you are lapsing into the defense mechanism of attacking straw men. I really should (and perhaps do) admire the way you trot out the usual evasions and inevitable defenses much faster than most people in your situation do. Perhaps this will be over with sooner than I think.

The judge doesn't have any way of knowing for certain whether someone's repentance is sincere; God does. If the judge did too then it would probably be best for him to accept a sincere one, yes, very much so.
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Muhaba
11-03-2010, 04:25 PM
trinity is absolutely not monotheistic. there is no way three can equal one. ask any person who knows a bit of math and they will tell you.

(BTW this post is just one-third of a post and three of my posts will be equal to one post.)
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Muhaba
11-03-2010, 04:27 PM
brother truthfinder, i'm glad God helped you find him. misfortunes are blessings in disguise. i hope you will find the truth some more and realize that God is one and not three.
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Muhaba
11-03-2010, 04:28 PM
i'm also glad that you survived cancer. as they say, all's well that ends well!
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truth finder
11-03-2010, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
trinity is absolutely not monotheistic. there is no way three can equal one. ask any person who knows a bit of math and they will tell you.

(BTW this post is just one-third of a post and three of my posts will be equal to one post.)
Hi Yahya Sulaiman

I will get back to you soon.


Hi Muhabe

Thanks for your kind words. Because the stomach caner was discovered in the early stage, it was successfully treated without surgery or chemotherapy. Besides this problem, I also had a separate surgery in which a tumor was removed from my lower abdomen. The official biopsy test (which was sent to France from Canada for further analysis) said it could be either malignant or benign. It sounded strange at first, but at least it did not say the tumor was malignant. As I mentioned in the first post of this thread, all things have returned to what they were before except two things: surgery scars and the heart. Yes, I have become a new person with a new heart! Before the trials I was full of disappointment, frustration and bitterness about my situation, myself and, most of all, God. As a result of my struggle with the disease and with doubt and questions about my own belief, I have become a true worshipper of God full of joy, thanks and freedom. Now I thank God even for the cancer I suffered from. Because of the disease, I learned to love and trust my God more, learned to be more thankful for everything, learned to have more compassion for other people, learned to resist better the temptation of lust and selfishness. God’s words have an amazing power that turned my anger, disappointment and fear into joy, thanks and freedom. Now to me, my faith is not a religion anymore, but a personal loving relationship with God. Now to me, worshiping means enjoying God as fully as possible, and expressing my joy and thanks to him in most genuine ways.

Back to your persistent comments, we do not worship 3 gods. We worship only one God that has been revealed to the world in different ways (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit). Of course you should not think the Father has the biological Son. It would be absurd to say that Jesus was born as a result of physical relationship between God and a woman. Jesus (the Word) was with the Father before the creation. Jesus already existed long before he became flesh. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” (John 1:1-3) Here the Word means Jesus. When we call Jesus as the Son, it refers to the relationship between them, not a biological one.

Several readers have made the following comment to me, “1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Holy Spirit) = 3 Gods. Therefore Christians worship three Gods.” But it comes from your confusion about deity and non-deity. You are applying non-deity mathematics to deity. We cannot compare deity with non-deity. Deity is eternal, while non-deity is mortal. Deity is perfect, while non-deity is imperfect. Deity is pure, while non-deity is impure. The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Non-deity is like finite, while deity is like infinity. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. Please do not use non-deity mathematics to deity, which would be very inappropriate.
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M.I.A.
11-03-2010, 08:45 PM
i guess if i was really struggling i could kinda justify a trinity in example...

god says if you are two the he is a third and if you are three then he is a fourth.

you could say jesus peace and blessings be upon him was strengthened by the spirit.

2+1 = 3, not counting anyone else in the room.

i also could use that example to further explain the way muslims believe in the crusification of christ...

imagine two people who are accused and tortured daily.. both are there for a reason and both represent the will of god. sooner or later you would not be able to tell the difference between them. well i know i would try and be as he was (peace and blessings be upon him)

really random conjecture but i mean no malice or mischief, just really random thoughts... too much spare time.
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IAmZamzam
11-03-2010, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Several readers have made the following comment to me, “1 God (the Father)+1 God (the Son)+1 God (the Holy Spirit) = 3 Gods. Therefore Christians worship three Gods.” But it comes from your confusion about deity and non-deity. You are applying non-deity mathematics to deity. We cannot compare deity with non-deity. Deity is eternal, while non-deity is mortal. Deity is perfect, while non-deity is imperfect. Deity is pure, while non-deity is impure. The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Non-deity is like finite, while deity is like infinity. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. Please do not use non-deity mathematics to deity, which would be very inappropriate.
I often wonder if the "1+1+1=1" cliche has any usefulness at all except to the Christians coming up with cute answers to it. You'll notice no one in this thread (at least, I don't think) has actually used it. The real issue is something more like "1=3". But ultimately argumentation about the Trinity is useless since it yields only flawed analogies on both sides and can always be ducked out of by the Christian whom we are attempting to reason with, using the classic tactic of "first I defend it based on the Muslim's purported misunderstanding of it, then based on its incomprehensibility, then claim knowledge of misunderstanding again, then play the beyond-human-comprehension card again, shifting my ground back and forth between the two mutually exclusive options whenever it is necessary."

I suggest that we stop here with the Trinity. The subject is quicksand. The amount of mental fortification (with rationalization and semantics) necessary to maintain the belief is almost impossible to be overcome by another person. I have generally observed the average Trinitarian to seem more likely to give up all of Christianity than to allow himself to listen to reason about this one particular optional doctrine of the religion.
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جوري
11-03-2010, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The official biopsy test (which was sent to France from Canada for further analysis) said it could be either malignant or benign. It sounded strange at first

There is nothing strange about that, sometimes the bx is equivocal either the surgeon didn't get a good sample or didn't take a biopsy which includes the margins also inflammatory and fibrotic lesions can be confused for malignancy. I wouldn't call having a cancer or non-cancer a leeway to renew or drop out of faith. If you love God and believe in God's grace and mercy that will be the case in the difficult and lean times--surely death will ensue for every living being will you then stop your beliefs? I am not sure if you are using your experience to cajole the reader that the particular man/god you prayed to saved you whereas if you'd prayed to odin you'd have had a different outcome-- and if that is your intent then I feel sorry for you indeed.. I see many people given 2 months to live go on to live another 7 years, atheists though they maybe. God doesn't need us to believe, and god is in no need for our prayers, or fast or adoration. If you do good you do it for your own soul and if you do bad again it is for your own soul!

all the best
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IbnAbdulHakim
11-03-2010, 10:42 PM
i honestly think our hearts are what leads us to God, which you also seem to believe.


I think our bodies which are created by God also indicate by its many reactions such as falling ill due to what God forbids and feeling shy of what God forbids are signs of the one true God.


Islam manifests all of these for us, therefore both heart - mind - soul - and body... all point towards islam being the truth.


I only posted this because i detested your saying "A FEW LINES". i know your refering to the Quran, Hadith and other religious scriptures.

These scriptures arent just a few lines my friend... they really arent.
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Muhaba
11-03-2010, 10:55 PM
no matter how much you say that trinity doesn't mean three separate beings, the truth is that everything in your scriptures shows that jesus, God, and the holy spirit were separate beings and could in no way be one. jesus cried out to God, according to your bible, asking why God forsaked him. that clearly shows two things: 1. Jesus didn't have the power to save himself from the people. If he were divine, he'd have been extremely powerful and no human would have been able to capture him. he'd have been able to fly, he'd have a body stronger than steel so even a bullet wouldn't have harmed him (think superman). 2. Jesus and God aren't the same being. Jesus is a separate being from God.

The only way you can say you are monotheist is if you believe Jesus is God and there is no other God other than Jesus. But if you believe that there is Jesus and there is God then you are believing in two different Gods.
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M.I.A.
11-03-2010, 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
no matter how much you say that trinity doesn't mean three separate beings, the truth is that everything in your scriptures shows that jesus, God, and the holy spirit were separate beings and could in no way be one. jesus cried out to God, according to your bible, asking why God forsaked him. that clearly shows two things: 1. Jesus didn't have the power to save himself from the people. If he were divine, he'd have been extremely powerful and no human would have been able to capture him. he'd have been able to fly, he'd have a body stronger than steel so even a bullet wouldn't have harmed him (think superman). 2. Jesus and God aren't the same being. Jesus is a separate being from God.

The only way you can say you are monotheist is if you believe Jesus is God and there is no other God other than Jesus. But if you believe that there is Jesus and there is God then you are believing in two different Gods.
no matter how much you say that trinity doesn't mean three separate beings, the truth is that everything in your scriptures shows that jesus, God, and the holy spirit were separate beings and could in no way be one.

jesus peace and blessings be upon him was a prophet... so inherently linked to god.
the fact that the spirit was a seperate entity does not detract from anything... if it was with him his whole life then who knew him better?
also the spirit was inherently linked to god.. so still no division.
also god... what can i say?

the fact that he peace and blessings be upon him cried out shows you who he was..seemingly without the spirit and seemingly without god.
he was a man that shouldered the problems of the whole world.. like all prophets did, peace and blessings be upon them.

you make the superhero analogy and for one thing.. its probably harder to stand up when you know you are not bulletproof.
i guess when he comes back the next time we should pray he is bulletproof, maybe he can break the laws of gravity...maybe he can break the world as we know it.
then we might not reject him...but we will as is always the case for the masses.
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Ramadhan
11-04-2010, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The difference between deity and non-deity is like sky and land, and in fact even more. Non-deity is like finite, while deity is like infinity. For non-deity mathematics, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But deity mathematics, infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity, not 3 infinities. There is no such thing as 3 infinities. Please do not use non-deity mathematics to deity, which would be very inappropriate.

So here you are saying Jesus is infinity, but the fact is Jesus was born, and (according to you) he died.
So he had a beginning and he had an end.
Does not sound like an infinity to me.
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siam
11-05-2010, 06:54 AM
"Diety-mathematics"?!!!!
Christian apologetics is amusingly entertaining......

As for the Torah----Ask any Rabbi---The Torah does not have the concept of "original sin"---its purely a Christian re-interpretation.

how about this equation

original sin + crucifixion = salvation

but if you take out the original sin---there is no need for crucifixion or the resulting salvation......or is it that anything logical and reasonable isnt "diety-math" enough for a Christian?
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Muhaba
11-05-2010, 02:21 PM
if God couldn't forgive the original sin without a sacrifice (according to christians) then every sin would need a sacrifice. the original sin wasn't such a great sin compared to other sins, like murder. So what do Christians say about that? Between the creation of Adam (AS) and the birth of Jesus ppl must have committed millions of far terrible sins, why weren't there sacrifices for those? Also, if humans inherited Adam and Eve's sin, then does that mean we inherit our parents' sins and should be punished for them by God?
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Ramadhan
11-05-2010, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by muhaba
if God couldn't forgive the original sin without a sacrifice (according to christians) then every sin would need a sacrifice. the original sin wasn't such a great sin compared to other sins, like murder. So what do Christians say about that? Between the creation of Adam (AS) and the birth of Jesus ppl must have committed millions of far terrible sins, why weren't there sacrifices for those? Also, if humans inherited Adam and Eve's sin, then does that mean we inherit our parents' sins and should be punished for them by God?

There are more holes in christianity theology than a sieve after being attacked by a hive of moth. The more you study christianity closely, the more questions it cannot answer.
And all these stemmed from one act: elevating a human, albeit a very very special human, into an equal of God.
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Woodrow
11-05-2010, 02:56 PM
Just my own opinion. The Christian concept of entering Heaven is similar to going to the movie theater. To get in you need to pay the ticket price. If you can not afford the price you get rich uncle Charlie to cough up the money for you.

I do not see this as forgiveness. forgiveness erases all debt and their is no longer a price to be paid. To be forgiven we need only to repent fully and strive to become loyal servants of Allaah(swt). When our repentance is accepted, there is no longer any bill to pay, we no longer need to pay the purchase price as there is no charge for Allaah(swt)'s mercy.
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IAmZamzam
11-05-2010, 03:01 PM
Guys, you’re kind of swamping him. Let me help so that he no longer has any excuse not to indeed “be back with me soon”. Because I think that I know what he will respond:

Originally Posted by muhaba
no matter how much you say that trinity doesn't mean three separate beings, the truth is that everything in your scriptures shows that jesus, God, and the holy spirit were separate beings and could in no way be one. jesus cried out to God, according to your bible, asking why God forsaked him. that clearly shows two things: 1. Jesus didn't have the power to save himself from the people. If he were divine, he'd have been extremely powerful and no human would have been able to capture him. he'd have been able to fly, he'd have a body stronger than steel so even a bullet wouldn't have harmed him (think superman). 2. Jesus and God aren't the same being. Jesus is a separate being from God.
Here he’ll either ignore what you said altogether about crying out to God, or brush it off as the prophecy from psalm 22, as always leaving the important missing context from the “prophecy” omitted or, if particularly desperate, pulling a far out “metaphorical” interpretation out to justify it. I’ve already said too much because this thread is likely now to be derailed on Psalm 22, but I guess it’s a risk I’ll have to take. As for the rest he’ll obviously tell you that there’s no problem with God being killed if He’s willingly let Himself be killed (even though he still hasn’t explained why this should have to be the case—and has all but ceded the point to me, in fact), and therefore it wouldn’t diminish His abilities. Which technically speaking it wouldn’t. He may hit you with a swarm of biblical quotations (the same ones you always hear) supposedly establishing the incarnation doctrine in response to the "everything in your scriptures shows that jesus, God, and the holy spirit were separate beings" part.

Originally Posted by naidamar
So here you are saying Jesus is infinity, but the fact is Jesus was born, and (according to you) he died. So he had a beginning and he had an end. Does not sound like an infinity to me.
Here he’ll hit you with the opening of John and the elaborate labyrinths of semantics Christian theology have built up around it. Getting back into square one Trinity territory here, so expect the discussion to eventually go in a circle when he does so.

Originally Posted by siam
"Diety-mathematics"?!!!! Christian apologetics is amusingly entertaining......

As for the Torah----Ask any Rabbi---The Torah does not have the concept of "original sin"---its purely a Christian re-interpretation.

how about this equation

original sin + crucifixion = salvation

but if you take out the original sin---there is no need for crucifixion or the resulting salvation......or is it that anything logical and reasonable isnt "diety-math" enough for a Christian?
To answer your last question (speaking as myself again), yes. To answer as I’m sure truth finder will, there are certain passages in the Old Testament which are often touted by Christians to that end and I may even be able to guess which ones he’ll cite, not that it matters since, as you have pointed out, during thousands of years of Judaism nobody ever took them in such a way as to indicate original sin until the Christians started touting it.

Originally Posted by muhaba
if God couldn't forgive the original sin without a sacrifice (according to christians) then every sin would need a sacrifice. the original sin wasn't such a great sin compared to other sins, like murder. So what do Christians say about that? Between the creation of Adam (AS) and the birth of Jesus ppl must have committed millions of far terrible sins, why weren't there sacrifices for those? Also, if humans inherited Adam and Eve's sin, then does that mean we inherit our parents' sins and should be punished for them by God?
The Bible goes back and forth and back and forth on the subject of whether people should be unfairly punished for their parents’ sins, so I don’t know what he’ll say about that. Probably he’ll ignore most of your post and just give a “general answer” that Christ (P) paid for all sins period on the cross. He may use some loaded analogy to this end. Never mind the fact that even if there were any reason for someone else to have to pay for our sins, it would absurd to think of them all being paid for by a few acts of torture and an unusually brief crucifixion.

Let me guess: the “he was suffering his whole life, not just on the cross” comeback? I don’t see 30-35 years as doing the trick either.

But once again, the important issue is whether or not the trick needs to be done. I repeat:

Originally Posted by YahyaSulaiman
Forgiveness is not one person paying another person's debt but the debt being simply erased, by one who does not need anything and has no reason to demand anything except our own repentance. There is no escaping the basic fact of the contradiction in terms in pardoning entailing or containing punishment, whatever Old Testament re-interpretations you may pull out in a vain attempt to justify it…Nor is the other inevitable defense, which I'm sure is next on your itenerary--the vague and circular appeal to "the law"--going to fly. Say that you heard of a judge pardoning a guilty man from his death sentence and, with the very next bang of his gavel, sentencing himself to death in the culprit's stead. You ask what on earth is going on and your friend told you, "That's the law, so it's gotta be like this. They used to do something similar in the old days and this is just the continuation and consummation of it." What would your reaction be? To think that the story about the judge probably isn't true, especially given what you believe about the judge's wisdom and moral character? To think that there is something seriously wrong with the law and tradition being spoken of, and therefore that if someone told you that a person of the judge’s wisdom and character wrote that law himself then they were obviously wrong? Or would you just shrug and go, “Oh well, if it’s the law….” You are regarding grace lightly. That's the main problem with Christianity: it has to compromise the idea by tempering it with its mutually exclusive opposite…The judge doesn't have any way of knowing for certain whether someone's repentance is sincere; God does. If the judge did too then it would probably be best for him to accept a sincere one, yes, very much so.
EDIT: Brother Woodrow actually put it pretty well himself just as I was posting this! Well, how do you like that?
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M.I.A.
11-05-2010, 10:22 PM
i kinda get the concept of original sin,
so people are inclined towards sin by nature.. this is true.

the quran says that mankind is nothing but insolence and competition, by our very nature.
although it does not say we are sinful by nature im sure you would all agree we are. (if you do not then thats really funny)

"In the theology of the Catholic Church, original sin is regarded as the general condition of sinfulness, that is (the absence of holiness and perfect charity) into which humans are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits"

thats from wiki and i kinda agree.

i know as kids we are supposedly closest to god.. but i know how i was when i was a kid :sorry::phew

anyway the only way forward is to our death and ressurection and finally judgement.. no bribes taken and little intercession.
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truth finder
11-08-2010, 02:19 PM
Hi readers

I am very sorry for very late reply since I have been extremely busy these days. I hope to catch up with your replies. I have opened this thread to hear about your own personal stories of spiritual journey with God by starting with my own. As many of you have already read the first post, I was very disappointed with God at some point of my life, and my anger and bitterness against God were boiling inside my heart. As I said, I did not reveal it to others for fear that I would be ridiculed or rejected by them. I just shared my (shameful) past personal spiritual experience with you to ask you to share your own personal stories with me and other readers.

But quite a number of readers keep making some insulting comments to me and I had to get sidetracked to answer them in response to their comments. As I read some latest replies, several readers have made a comment on original sin. God expected Adam and Even to listen to Him, but they decided to give in to the temptation. God created us as human beings with free wills, not as robots, but we too often use our free wills doing sinful things. Although the Bible does not mention “original sin” by words, it is evident by reading the Bible and by observing how seemingly innocent babies behave. Young babies have never learned how to fight for toys from their parents or older siblings or TV. They have never had any bad influence from outside. But when they are put together with other babies, they automatically fight for the toys they want and try to take away toys from their competitors. Although at the beginning this greedy or sinful nature is not serious or cute if you wish to call it, surely it comes from the seed of sin because they were born with it.

As I mentioned, I opened this thread to share our honest spiritual experiences with God with each other, not to discuss the theology of Islam or Christianity. If you keep the contents of your reply to this direction, it would be greatly appreciated although you can make any comment as you wish.
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Woodrow
11-08-2010, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Hi readers

I am very sorry for very late reply since I have been extremely busy these days. I hope to catch up with your replies. I have opened this thread to hear about your own personal stories of spiritual journey with God by starting with my own. As many of you have already read the first post, I was very disappointed with God at some point of my life, and my anger and bitterness against God were boiling inside my heart. As I said, I did not reveal it to others for fear that I would be ridiculed or rejected by them. I just shared my (shameful) past personal spiritual experience with you to ask you to share your own personal stories with me and other readers.

But quite a number of readers keep making some insulting comments to me and I had to get sidetracked to answer them in response to their comments. As I read some latest replies, several readers have made a comment on original sin. God expected Adam and Even to listen to Him, but they decided to give in to the temptation. God created us as human beings with free wills, not as robots, but we too often use our free wills doing sinful things. Although the Bible does not mention “original sin” by words, it is evident by reading the Bible and by observing how seemingly innocent babies behave. Young babies have never learned how to fight for toys from their parents or older siblings or TV. They have never had any bad influence from outside. But when they are put together with other babies, they automatically fight for the toys they want and try to take away toys from their competitors. Although at the beginning this greedy or sinful nature is not serious or cute if you wish to call it, surely it comes from the seed of sin because they were born with it.

As I mentioned, I opened this thread to share our honest spiritual experiences with God with each other, not to discuss the theology of Islam or Christianity. If you keep the contents of your reply to this direction, it would be greatly appreciated although you can make any comment as you wish.
I would like to share a trilogy with you. This trilogy is the true path of how a person found Christianity, embraced it dearly and never thought he would ever leave it.

The first part of the trilogy covers the first 40 or so years of the person's life. The second part covers the person's next 25 years and why the person left Christianity and the last part covers the past 5 years.

It is a long read, but perhaps it may explain some things to you.

My path to Christianity and the road to becoming an Evangelist

I thought I was born Christian. I was raised in a very religious family during a time of great hardship.WW2 had not yet started and the USA was still suffering the effects of the great depression, My family and community was devoutly Roman Catholic and predominatly Lithuanian/Polish. To add to the hardsip my father was drafted into the Army shortly after the USA became involved in the war. That was the last time I saw him. Although we were quite poor my mother raised us to always have faith in God and He would provide. That belief has remained a strong part of my life.

I was raised as a proper Catholic, having been Baptized a few days after birth, receiving First Communion at the age of 7 and being confirmed at the age of 12. I attended mass daily, recieved communion every Sunday and was an avid Catechism student. After my confirmation I joined CYO and like many served as an alter boy. I learned sufficient Latin to understand the Gregorian Mass which was the standard high mass on Sunday. Like many young Catholic boys my ambition was to be a Priest. At the age of 18 I joined the Knights of Columbus, shortly after I was accepted as a seminarian at .St. Thomas Seminary in Bloomfield, CT. I lasted one semester and decided the priesthood was not for me and dropped out.

I proceeded to my second love, aviation. I applied for and was accepted for the Aviation Cadet Program of the USAF. After completing training at Lackland and Kelly Airforce Bases near San Antonio TX I was commissioned a 2nd Lieutenant and was officially the proud pilot of an F-86. I had a very strange military career much of what it is best I do not share. I will only say I often did not fly in military uniform and often the planes I flew did not have USA markings. In 1963 I was flying a mission that took me at very low level over Hanoi in what was then North Vietnam. I picked up small arms fire from the ground and realized blood was filling my flight suit. When I felt the pain in my leg. I felt my best option was to climb to a higher elevation and attempt to reach Da Nang. As I pulled my plane upwards I lost conciousness. Some how the plane made it out over the Gulf of Tonkin, and miracuosly pancaked instead of nose diving into the Gult. I went down a matter of yards from a US submarine that had just surfaced. I was visually seen to go down and was pulled from my plane without even getting wet. I remained in a coma for the next three months or so..Over the next year I was moved to several different hospitals the last one being in Louisiana. After being discharged from the hospital I was found to be no longer physically fit to fly and lost my commission and flying status. I did want to remain in the Air force and was pemitted to re-enlist at an enlisted rank. This sent me on a 4 year journey that took me to many places. One place was Morocco and while there I enrolled in the University of Rabat to learn Arabic. Several other events in my life also took place. I became totally convinced that Catholocism was not proper Christianity. I had strong love for Jesus and sincerly felt I was spared so that I could find my place to serve Jesus. But I knew Catholocism was not the path. I began a search.

My search led me first to the Baptist Church, which I did love. but somehow it did not feel right I sensed I was on the right search, but had not reached my destination.Over the next few years I stumbled from denomination to denomination always looking. In 1968 I chanced upon a small Assembly of God church in Waskom, TX. My first meeting I felt overwhelmed by the presence of the holy spirit and by my second visit I was speaking in tongues. the feeling was beyond description, but I knew God had sent the Holy Spirit to work in me. Very soon I was Baptized in water and felt I had found my way to serve Jesus,

Because of my familiarity with the Arabic Language, some knowledge of North Africa and the mideast it was natural that one day I would become a Missionary to the region. first I established a very good reputation as a preacher and pastor, I also became quite good at evangelism in the States. Before long my dream came true and I began my evangelism in Morocco. Which was like returning home. I already had friends there and I knew that the people were very hospitable and tolerant of Christians. .

Over time I broke free from all denominational barriers and began Evangeliizng throughout the Islamic Nations. leading the lost to the truth of Christianity. I felt complete and finally serving Jesus as I had always wanted to and was given the strength and means through the ever present spirit of the Holy spirit. Amen


Christian to Agnostic

It is not a clear time line as to when I first began questioning the truth of Christianity. I deeply loved Jesus and still do. I fought the idea for a long time that Christianity was in error. It was something I did not want to consider. To me Christianity and the Bible were obvious tuths and even more certain then the sun will rise in the morning.

To me Christianity was the only path and any error was the result of man and the mistakes of some denominations. The bible was true, but man often misused it. resulting in many denominations some of which had strayed far from the truth. But, in spite of this the thought that the bible might be in error was unthinkable.

Denominations were the problem, if there was any problem. I can recall an incident in Agadir, Morocco. A very charismatic preacher was holding a gigantic tent revival and a call for Muslims to come to Christ. Each night the tent was filled to capacity with an overflowing,enthusiastic crowd. It was quite an exciting event. On the next to the last night of the revival he asked all of the crowd to return on the last night and to bring their Qur'ans. with them. The next night several hundred if not over 1,000 arrived with their Qur'ans. He asked them to stack them in a pile. They did so, he then poured kerosene over them and lit the pile the revival quickly ended as a near riot. He then discovered that what he had burned was a stack of bibles, he had not been aware that in the Darija Arabic the word Qur'an is used for any religious book. He was also unaware that Agadir is a city with a very large Arabic speaking Christian population. His entire revival was composed of Christians and not Muslims as he thought. This gave me a very dramatic lesson in the importance of fully understanding the people you preach to. It also made me wonder how and why Jesus would call such ignorant people to spread his word..


I knew it was impossible to study each and every one of the 30,000+ known denominations in depth to discover which was true. This led me to believe the only path was the bible based path untethered by denominational idiosyncrasies. The only way to Christ was through the Bible alone, the teaching of man only caused confusion. This necessitated a thorough study of the bible from it's origin to it's translations. The Bible had to be infallible as it was the true Word of God. As I studied the Bible more in depth and searching back through older translations including the Koine Greek. I became aware of how little the bible is composed of words from God, it is nearly all the words of man.The questions began to come. What was the basis for the particular books in the NT selected by the Council of Nicea as true and so many others were cast aside as being Gnostic? Why is it that no copies of any book in Aramaic exists or even mentioned. Aramaic was the common language of the time. Hebrew had stopped being a spoken language at about the time of Isiah and Koine greek was used mostly by the educated and along with Latin for legal decrees..Looking deeper into the NT I can find none of the characteristics of the metaphorical thought processes consistent with semitic people. Could it be the NT does not contain any books written by Jewish followers of Jesus? I always thought the followers of Jesus were Jews and considered themselves as pious Jews.

Another experiment took place, using the Red Letter editions of the KJV and the New Revised I wrote out only the words believed to have been exact quotes of Jesus and reading them without the comments by the alleged authors, the NT takes on a meaning much different than what is taught as Christianity. There is no concept of the Trinity nor that Jesus is the Son of God. There is no religion called Christianity. We have individual people calling themselves Christians but each following their own interpretations of what they want Christianity to be.The concept of a trinity and of god having a son were common beliefs among the ancient Greeks, Romans and Hindus. The new testament is composed of books selected by Romans and Greeks, could it be Christianity was merged with pagan beliefs? A thought I wanted to disbelieve..

Further study and more praying for guidance from the Holy spirit and many prayers for Jesus to remove all doubts from my thoughts. This was not what I wanted. I sincerely wanted to continue believing Jesus was the son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins to be forgiven.

It was all to no avail. the more I studied the more I came to understand that the Christianity I loved was no more real than Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny. Christianity is simply a revised version of Greek/Roman mythology perpetrated by Greeks and Romans to revive a dieing myth.

I can no longer sincerely call myself a Christian. While I still have strong belief in God verified by the many miracles in my life I can not find any instruction as to how to worship God or How Jesus fits into the picture. I have to be honest and adopt the label of agnostic, but while I continue my search to find the true way to serve God I will simply live the life style of the Buddhist which essentially follow the pricnciples of a Christian life but, without the worship. Contrary to popular belief True Buddhism is not a religion it is a philosophical method of living a moral life.



My Third and Final Testimony

The third testimony is how Islam found me and I returned home to where I belong. That I have posted on the forum several times in a short synopsis.
I will share the long version with you here

In my early years one of my interests was the study of languages. among the languages I learned was Arabic. However I studied in Morocco at the University of Rabat and learned the Darija Dialect, which unfortunately is not understood in much of the Arabic speaking world. But the written Arabic is the same world wide no matter what dialect you speak, so it was not a total loss.

I first learned of Islam to any extent while I was a Pilot in the USAF. One thing we were taught was how to say the shahadah in Arabic. It was believed that if we were found by any Muslims after crashing and if we said the Shahadah we would be treated as friends.This was taught in the event we ever crashed in a Muslim Nations, Our flights often originated near the Mediterranean and we sometimes flew over the Islamic nations.

By the year 1988 I had very much given up on organized Christianity, although I still felt Christianity was the path to salvation. I no longer belonged to any church and considered myself agnostic although I called myself Buddhist. In 1989 I lost my first wife and in 1990 married my second wife. My children did not like my second wife and that became the last year I had contact with my children. My wife and I pretty much became wanderers around the world. I had sufficient personal income and savings so we could pretty much indulge our travel desires. We both also did as much evangelical work we could during this time. However, my preaching became plain simple Christianity with no denomination affiliation. It was a self paid venture with no sorces for any religious panphlets, bible etc except for my own wallet. Yet, there was always sufficient money to provide for any needed material.

In 2004 We were living in the small town of Tennessee Colony. Texas a very Red Neck town smack in the Center of the Bible Belt. I was diagnosed with lung cancer and began preparing for my final days. But my wife passed away suddenly just a few weeks after my diagnosis. I went into a very deep depression and began drinking quite heavily. In May of 2005 I realized the stupidity of my drunken binge sobered up and set forth to regain control of my life. I began with a general clean up of the house. During my clean up I found my old Qur'an in Arabic that I had bought while I was a student at Rabat. I had bought it as a study guide to help me learn to read Arabic.

It had been many years since I had last read anything in Arabic. I was curious as to if I could still read it. I opened it to Surah Fatiha and the first line lieraly jumped out at me.

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem. "In the name of Allaah, the provider, the Most merciful"

It was like the words glowed and completely filled me with an inner peace I never felt before.

I turned back to the fac page and saw:
“Auzu Billahi Mina Al Shaytan Al Rajeem”.
(In Allaah(swt) I seek refuge from the evils of Satan)

After over 20 years of not speaking Arabic it all flowed back to me. I coulc not stop reading and I was not simply reading words, the feeling of each ayyat came upon me with an indescribable warmth and sense of understanding. I could not stop. I do not know how long I read I know it was fro at least 48 hours and I still could not stop the feeling was so powerful and filling me with a strong sense of love and joy on the morning of what I believe was the 3rd day I finally set the Qur'an down and knew I was Muslim. I instantly said the Shahadah and knew I was now part of the Ummah. I did not even know if there were any Muslims in Texas much less if there were any Mosques.

I realized I was hungry and there was no food in the house. The nearest store was only a mile from me so I decided to walk down to it. When I entered the store there was a stranger from out of town. He was dark skinned. Our eyes met and he smiled and said "As salaamu Alaikum Akhi" without hesitation I answered back "Wa alaikum wa reamatullahi wa baraktuhu" He then asked "How long have you been Muslim, I answered about 15 minutes.

He then asked me if I had ever been in a Mosque, I said no. He then invited me to go to the Mosque in Tyler on Friday. I accepted. I later learned his name was Aadil and he had just moved to Texas from Pakistan. He had gotten lost and accidentally drove into Tennessee Colony, He had stopped at the store to get directions. Aadil and I became very close friends and still are although he has since moved back to Pakistan.

Things then moved so fast it became a blur. My youngest Daughter who I had not seen for 15 years called me on the telephone. She had been contacted by the VA and had learned they were concerned about my health. She insisted I move in with her family in Austin, which I did. The biggest surprise was finding out she had accepted Islam 10 years before and was married to a fine pious Muslim man and had 2 children I had never seen. A bigger surprise was soon to come. I discovered all of my children had reverted to Islam and all of my Grandchildren were Muslim.

My cancer was in remission for a while. In January of 2006 the cancer became active again. without treatment my prognosis was 3-4 months. I elected not to receive treatment and set about making my own funeral arraingements. In May for some reason I was still alive and accidentally stumbled across this forum. I joined and it became a source of purpose for me. Ramadan came and I was still alive. During Ramadan, came what I call the Beard miracle. People of my race have no facial hair or at most a few scattered whiskers(I am predominately Mongol)(Lithuanian Tatar-Lietuva Lipkas) I had never had to shave in my entire life. Yet on that Ramadan I grew a full, fist length, very thick beard. I still have the beard and although it has never been trimmed it is still the same length.

I am still alive and have not been back to any doctor since January 2006. I think I have lived past the 3-4 month prognosis.
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the long story. I can also find quite similar stories from Islam to Christianity. But I want to hear “your own personal” stories, not the stories of somebody else.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-08-2010, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for the long story. I can also find quite similar stories from Islam to Christianity. But I want to hear “your own personal” stories, not the stories of somebody else.
I believe that is unc. Woodrow's personal story.

truthfinder, I believe everyone has their own miraculous story whether they realise it or not.
yours is far from unique.
Reply

Woodrow
11-08-2010, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for the long story. I can also find quite similar stories from Islam to Christianity. But I want to hear “your own personal” stories, not the stories of somebody else.
I am the author of that trilogy and that is my own story and words written by my own hand. That is my life story and why I am here on this forum.
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am the author of that trilogy and that is my own story and words written by my own hand. That is my life story and why I am here on this forum.
Please accept my sincere apology. I did not know you were the author. I will get back to you during the lunch time.
Reply

Woodrow
11-08-2010, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Please accept my sincere apology. I did not know you were the author. I will get back to you during the lunch time.
Peace, no apology needed. I can understand you would not have recognized it as being my own life.

I wrote the first part a long time ago as my Testimony, when I was Christian. This is the first time I posted it on this forum. The second part I wrote about 10-15 years ago, up until now I had only shared it with one other person. The last part I have posted most of on this forum several times. I was looking through my notes last night and saved all 3 to a folder on my PC. Paper is hard to keep up with. It dawned on me that the 3 together, do show my personal path to Islam and decided it may be of interest on this thread.
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Peace, no apology needed. I can understand you would not have recognized it as being my own life.

I wrote the first part a long time ago as my Testimony, when I was Christian. This is the first time I posted it on this forum. The second part I wrote about 10-15 years ago, up until now I had only shared it with one other person. The last part I have posted most of on this forum several times. I was looking through my notes last night and saved all 3 to a folder on my PC. Paper is hard to keep up with. It dawned on me that the 3 together, do show my personal path to Islam and decided it may be of interest on this thread.
Hi Woodrow

Finally it is lunch time. Thank you very much for your story. I appreciate it greatly. I believe it was your genuine personal experience. I respect your decision to choose another faith. As many readers agree, belief should be a purely personal matter between God and an individual. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or even leave their belief. No religion, no religious rule or no religious tradition should be above the precious human beings. In a sense you should be thankful that you were able to change your faith without harm in USA. The other way path from Islam to Christianity would be much dangerous in many countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, the two model countries Muslims wish their counties to be like.

Since you were born and raised in a Catholic family, and I was born in a non-believing family of a secular country (Buddhism was the dominant religion) and chose my faith in my late twenties, I believe I was much less “brainwashed” than you were young.

I am sorry for the bad experience with the charismatic preacher in Morocco. I agree with the problem of some charismatic preachers. I also disagree with his attempt to burn Qurans. In fact personally I sent three separate emails to Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Center not to burn Qurans. Fortunately he listened to the requests of his fellow Christians. I explained him that there are many other polite ways to convey his message.

As I mentioned above, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord in my late twenties, and did not go to a seminary or take any course in theology. Despite of the lack of my “religious” education, the following is a short summary of my own personal relation with Jesus. You are very welcome to share your comment with me. I sincerely wish your good health for the rest of your life.

The grace of God is a key concept of our faith. While Christianity is all about a faith based relationship with God, even some Christians take it as a religion. Unfortunately these people try to make religious duties and rituals, and try to perform them before God in order to make Him happy. Their main concern is to earn a right to heaven by doing good works in order to compensate the mistakes and sins they have committed in the past. They try hard to reach the unachievable high standard for heaven, namely, righteousness. Righteousness is a state where one can stand with God without any harm. This is the same as trying to go up to heaven by their human effort. Actually this is true for all the other religions in the world. In reality, however, God knows we are incapable of perfect and sinless. He knows we are weak so that it is an impossible task for the sinful to achieve righteousness in their own effort. Out of His compassion and love for us, He Himself decided to come down to earth from heaven in order to give us Himself as righteousness. Of course He is Jesus Christ. This is a fundamental between Christian faith and all the other religions of the world.

Some people make a comment about our faith, “What is the point for good deeds? We do not need to do good works for others!” The reality is the opposite. We have received the wonderful gift of eternal life through Jesus without paying the price. In fact the sacrificial death of Jesus for us is priceless! Because of this undeserved grace from God, we offer our heartfelt thanks to God and express our love for God through our love for other human beings such as social outcasts. Mother Teresa is one of good examples. Here is another fundamental difference between Christian faith and the other religions of the world. The believers of these religions try to do good works either as a religious requirement or to outweigh their past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgment, while we do it out of thanks and joy for the grace we have already received.
Reply

IAmZamzam
11-08-2010, 07:06 PM
Buddhists insist Buddhism isn't a religion, Christians keep saying Christianity isn't a religion...Probably there are Muslims who do the same. Really, is there any religion on earth that actually acknowledges being a religion anymore? Has the mockery and sophistry of the irreligious permeated our consciousness so much that now we're ashamed deep down inside to be members of a religion at all??

You're part of a religion, folks. Be proud of it already. Enough with the stupid semantics.
Reply

جوري
11-08-2010, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The other way path from Islam to Christianity would be much dangerous in many countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran, the two model countries Muslims wish their counties to be like.
I can't see anyone changing path from Islam to Christianity it is ludicrous to willfully choose ignorance and darkness over the light as falsehood by its very nature is bound to perish -- nonetheless it is interesting you should point this out, given how many sisters in Egypt have been kidnapped by the church when they decided to convert to Islam. It is a shame that Muslims should protect all yet fails to protect those sisters from those beasts and of course given Egypt's secular regime and the money the ruling class gets to hush up we can expect nothing less!

for instance sister wafa constantine:

http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.c...idnapping.html

of course the christians never seem to quit their filthy tactics, centuries worth of filthy tactics like allying with the mongols against the muslims, now alleging that these are forced conversions..

I find you to be of that same stock by the way.. and you serve only to forge a greater gap and sever any bonds of friendship by your same disgusting tactics-- how about you take a look at what your own clan is doing before making the sweeping generalizations as you so often do?

all the best
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 08:19 PM
I have seen and heard some Christians who were genuine believers in the past and later changed their mind to become Muslims. I have equally seen and heard some Muslims who were genuine believers in the past and later changed their mind to become Christians. I believe most (if not all) of their stories are genuine. Actually some of them were former pastors in the church and former imams in the mosque. Although many of the readers have difficulty accepting it, this is the case. It is very interesting to note that at some point of their life or for their entire life they were really passionate about their belief and later changed their mind.

I do not support any forced conversion from one religion to another such as Islam to Christianity or Christianity to Islam. I am not sure how convincing your argument is in such a country where 90% of the population is Muslims, which means virtually all of them are Muslims.
Reply

جوري
11-08-2010, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I have seen and heard some Christians who were genuine believers in the past and later changed their mind to become Muslims. I have equally seen and heard some Muslims who were genuine believers in the past and later changed their mind to become Christians. I believe most (if not all) of their stories are genuine. Actually some of them were former pastors in the church and former imams in the mosque. Although many of the readers have difficulty accepting it, this is the case. It is very interesting to note that at some point of their life or for their entire life they were really passionate about their belief and later changed their mind. I do not support any forced conversion from one religion to another such as Islam to Christianity or Christianity to Islam. I am not sure how convincing your argument is in such a country where 90% of the population is Muslims, which means virtually all of them are Muslims.

as stated no Genuine Muslim would ever go back to the dark ages which is a symbol of Christianity. There is no 'argument' those are the current facts, those who convert to Islam from Christianity have roused the wrath of the 'venereal' shenuda and caused much civil unrest. Egypt runs by French constitution since its occupation and not Islamic jurisprudence. We don't expect you to understand that since basic common sense and logic eludes you, I wouldn't venture into geopolitical and socioeconomic conditions when you can't get past a dying mangod!

all the best
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 09:27 PM
You seem to be one of those people who cannot accept the reality that some of genuine Muslims have left their religion to take another path. I have no problem accepting the reality that some of genuine Christians have left their belief to take another path. Belief is a purely personal matter between God and an individual and thus people have freedom to choose one. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or even leave their belief. No religion, no religious rule or no religious tradition should be above the precious human lives.
Reply

جوري
11-08-2010, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to be one of those people who cannot accept the reality that some of genuine Muslims have left their religion to take another path. I have no problem accepting the reality that some of genuine Christians have left their belief to take another path. Belief is a purely personal matter between God and an individual and thus people have freedom to choose one. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or even leave their belief. No religion, no religious rule or no religious tradition should be above the precious human lives.

Yes indeed we are called the thinking type!.. not the sort of idiots who buy into the B.S-- although I can't currently locate the thread, we have had a recent one about christians pretending to be Muslim and have apostatized after finding christianity .. I can only imagine the depth of their sickness.. perhaps the OP of that thread can post it for you so you can feast your eyes on why what you allege is so laughable!

you should consult your bible by the way on the fates of apostates:

1- In the Old and New Testaments:
In the Old Testament:
Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9 "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."
Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:3-5 "And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die."
This verse was sent to me by Yusif 65; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him: 2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."

In the New Testament by Jesus and Paul:
Jesus:
Note: Please pay close attention to my red emphasis below.
Let us look at what Jesus said in the New Testament in context:
Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
There are few points to notice here:
1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.
2- In verse 4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example. The context, however, is not limited to just this example!
3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.
4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents or any punishment of death that is commanded in the OT for this matter! In fact, Jesus himself said:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"



maybe you should brush up on your bible.. christians can't help but be such hypocrites, unfortunately never able to reconcile what their books says with what they actually preach!

all the best
Reply

tango92
11-08-2010, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to be one of those people who cannot accept the reality that some of genuine Muslims have left their religion to take another path. I have no problem accepting the reality that some of genuine Christians have left their belief to take another path. Belief is a purely personal matter between God and an individual and thus people have freedom to choose one. People should not be discriminated or persecuted just because they do not believe the same God or have a different belief or even leave their belief. No religion, no religious rule or no religious tradition should be above the precious human lives.
i fail to understand. does that mean humans are above the laws of God because our lives are somehow more meaningful? or does it means Gods laws are only for those who believe in him? but i dont think you have true belief.
Reply

truth finder
11-08-2010, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
i fail to understand. does that mean humans are above the laws of God because our lives are somehow more meaningful? or does it means Gods laws are only for those who believe in him? but i dont think you have true belief.
Many people are confused about religion and God. They could be two different things. Before Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Eden of garden due to their sins, there was only a loving relationship with God and human beings. There was only a perfect union between God and human beings as the Creator and his creatures. That was all there was. There was no religion or religious formality. Just read the most authentic account of Adam and Even in the Genesis of Torah. Only after they had to leave the presence of God because of their sins, religious formalities started to be introduced as means to approach God in a new reality of their separation from God. Over the years these religious rules and rituals became a formal system, which is called a religion. A religion or a collection of religious formalities were designed to serve as an arrow to the way to God, namely, the restoration of the original relationship between God and human beings, but not as a goal in itself. But unfortunately many people have been bogged down with it, struggling and burdened with it. Unfortunately many Christians belonged to this group of people in the past. It is like my young children who are preoccupied with my index finger, examining it hard this way and that way, instead of looking to what it points to. Once the broken relation is restored, religion as a collection of religious rules and rituals starts to lose its importance and can often be hurdles to the intimate loving relationship with God as the Friend and Lover.

This is what I say not only to believers in other religions, but also to fellow Christians.
Reply

tango92
11-08-2010, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Many people are confused about religion and God. They could be two different things. Before Adam and Eve were forced to leave the Eden of garden due to their sins, there was only a loving relationship with God and human beings. There was only a perfect union between God and human beings as the Creator and his creatures. That was all there was. There was no religion or religious formality. Just read the most authentic account of Adam and Even in the Genesis of Torah. Only after they had to leave the presence of God because of their sins, religious formalities started to be introduced as means to approach God in a new reality of their separation from God. Over the years these religious rules and rituals became a formal system, which is called a religion. A religion or a collection of religious formalities were designed to serve as an arrow to the way to God, namely, the restoration of the original relationship between God and human beings, but not as a goal in itself. But unfortunately many people have been bogged down with it, struggling and burdened with it. Unfortunately many Christians belonged to this group of people in the past. It is like my young children who are preoccupied with my index finger, examining it hard this way and that way, instead of looking to what it points to. Once the broken relation is restored, religion as a collection of religious rules and rituals starts to lose its importance and can often be hurdles to the intimate loving relationship with God as the Friend and Lover.

This is what I say not only to believers in other religions, but also to fellow Christians.
so basically you admit to being a man of no true faith. indeed if adam and eve were the first two humans created then where do you get your loving relationship with all humans before them from?

in other words what you are saying is let man make the rules and be his own lord. he can follow his hearts desires with the intent of coming closer to god.

so you dont believe in the laws of the bible. which is only possible if you dont believe the bible to be the word of god. in which case y r u quoting the biblical story?
Reply

جوري
11-08-2010, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
so basically you admit to being a man of no true faith.

Should be obvious the way he doesn't even wish to acknowledge the biblical stand on apostasy.. if they don't see it, you can't see it too!

:w:
Reply

Ramadhan
11-09-2010, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Mother Teresa is one of good examples. Here is another fundamental difference between Christian faith and the other religions of the world. The believers of these religions try to do good works either as a religious requirement or to outweigh their past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgment, while we do it out of thanks and joy for the grace we have already received

I have addressed your mother teresa in http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...mmunity-4.html

Now, let's take a look at your statement above:

You claim all christians do good deeds out of joy for the grace of god, while others do good deeds solely as religious requirement.
This means you KNOW whats in the heart of every human being on earth, and you KNOW each and every intentions of every human beings.

This means you are either God or you are a liar.

Since we know you are not god, that leaves us with the other option.
Is that what they teach in church to recruit people to worship mangod?
It actually reminds me of how christian missionaries work in Indonesia.
Reply

truth finder
11-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
so basically you admit to being a man of no true faith. indeed if adam and eve were the first two humans created then where do you get your loving relationship with all humans before them from?

in other words what you are saying is let man make the rules and be his own lord. he can follow his hearts desires with the intent of coming closer to god.

so you dont believe in the laws of the bible. which is only possible if you dont believe the bible to be the word of god. in which case y r u quoting the biblical story?
You seem to misunderstand my point completely. I have faith in God, his love and his salvation from our sin through the atonement of Jesus. The loving relationship means a loving relationship between God, and Adam and Eve as the creator and his creatures, not between Adam and Eve, and other people.

No, men should not make the rules by themselves to follow. The rules were given to people from God in Torah in a new reality that there is a barrier between God and human beings because sin entered into them.

Yes, I do believe the Bible as much as you do. The laws were given to us for the purpose of pointing to the way to the Father, not the goal in itself. If human beings had not invited sin into their lives, there would not have been given the rules.
Reply

جوري
11-09-2010, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
No, men should not make the rules by themselves to follow. The rules were given to people from God in Torah in a new reality that there is a barrier between God and human beings because sin entered into them.

Is the god of the ot not the same god of this nt? or does this god change his mind? There are no barriers between man and God.. only christians are under that inane notion-- and to counter that inane notion they don't seem to do much, but go on sinning and coveting, for this new improved god of the NT ate their sins so long as they can buy into it!
Reply

tango92
11-09-2010, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to misunderstand my point completely. I have faith in God, his love and his salvation from our sin through the atonement of Jesus. The loving relationship means a loving relationship between God, and Adam and Eve as the creator and his creatures, not between Adam and Eve, and other people.

No, men should not make the rules by themselves to follow. The rules were given to people from God in Torah in a new reality that there is a barrier between God and human beings because sin entered into them.

Yes, I do believe the Bible as much as you do. The laws were given to us for the purpose of pointing to the way to the Father, not the goal in itself. If human beings had not invited sin into their lives, there would not have been given the rules.
I believe there are very few people who have come truly close to God on this planet. tell me, how does a christian know when he has come close to God or that God loves him?
Reply

GuestFellow
11-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


as stated no Genuine Muslim would ever go back to the dark ages which is a symbol of Christianity. There is no 'argument' those are the current facts, those who convert to Islam from Christianity have roused the wrath of the 'venereal' shenuda and caused much civil unrest. Egypt runs by French constitution since its occupation and not Islamic jurisprudence. We don't expect you to understand that since basic common sense and logic eludes you, I wouldn't venture into geopolitical and socioeconomic conditions when you can't get past a dying mangod!

all the best
:sl:

I too find it surprising when a Muslim converts to Christianity. I highly doubt they have studied Islam and Christianity thoroughly. Studying Islam takes a lot of effort and learning Arabic is also difficult if you are learning it by yourself.

Originally Posted by truth finder
You seem to be one of those people who cannot accept the reality that some of genuine Muslims have left their religion to take another path. I have no problem accepting the reality that some of genuine Christians have left their belief to take another path.
There are some ex-Muslims who publicly announced that they have converted to Christianity, such as Nonie Darwish. However, I feel people like Nonie Darwish converted based on political and monetary gain, due to inconsistencies in their stories.
Reply

truth finder
11-09-2010, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
I believe there are very few people who have come truly close to God on this planet. tell me, how does a christian know when he has come close to God or that God loves him?
Could you tell me who are those few people that enjoy intimate friendship with God? People who spend lots of time for prayer? People who spend lots of time for fast? People who donate large money to the poor? Although these things can be good, they do not make people come truly close to God. The only way people can come close to God is to become a child of God again. Although we were created a child of God, we became the enemy of God with our rebellions and sins. Unless the problem of sin is dealt with completely, we could never go before God, thus eternally separated from God. It does not matter how many good deeds you perform to compensate your past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement. Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. A large chuck of Torah was given to us by God to show the way to God’s forgiveness. when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. (Exodus 12:13) By the way, have you ever read Torah and understood the spiritual implication? Or still struggling to find the spiritual meaning of all kinds of animal sacrifices?
Reply

جوري
11-09-2010, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Could you tell me who are those few people that enjoy intimate friendship with God?
All devout Muslims do!
People who spend lots of time for prayer?
Indeed, what better way to communicate directly with God?
People who spend lots of time for fast?
Indeed what better way to give up all worldly pleasure to become closer to God?
People who donate large money to the poor?
Indeed, what better way to establish kinship and brotherhood with the creation of God?
Although these things can be good, they do not make people come truly close to God.
Really based on what? what
I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.
It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).
The only way people can come close to God is to become a child of God again.
God isn't human and he has no children, a God that begets and is begotten is no god at all!

Although we were created a child of God, we became the enemy of God with our rebellions and sins.
We weren't created children of God, and certainly a devout faithful isn't rebellious!

O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself.
It was related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).

Unless the problem of sin is dealt with completely, we could never go before God, thus eternally separated from God.
That is a christian myth, and sadly that fear of sin hasn't stopped any christian from committing sins, they fornicate, they bribe, they use usury, they have children out of wedlock, they don't keep God's commandments, they covet, they are gluttonous, they don't feed the poor, they don't establish prayer or fast or charity, and love to be exalted for their deeds, paltry as they are, as if committing any sort of decency is something to be praised for as opposed to mere common sense and human nature!
It does not matter how many good deeds you perform to compensate your past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement. Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin.
Indeed, payment for sins lies with God, however:










1
“Allâh will change their sins into good deeds”
Some explanations to Surah al Furqân: 68-71
Abu Umayza ibn Abd Al-Râhman
All praise is due to Allâh. We praise Him and seek His aid and forgiveness. We seek refuge in Allâh from the evil of our own selves and from the evil of our actions. Whomsoever Allâh guides, none can send astray and whoever Allâh sends astray, none can guide.
I bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allâh alone, who has no partner. And I bear
witness that Muhammad ( is His slave and His Messenger. May Allâh send peace and blessings
upon him, his family and his Companions until the Last Day.
Then which of the Blessings of your Lord will you both (jinns and men) deny? (Ar Rahmân)
It is indeed a favour upon favour and a blessing upon blessing that Allâh
has created infinite means to His Mercy and ways to be granted His Forgiveness. Every aspect of Islâm contains within it, ways to achieve this.
Allâh’sو Mercy is indeed more endearing than His Anger as the Messenger of Allâh (ِ

و) said: “When Allâh decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down
with Him: ‘My mercy prevails over my wrath.’” [Hadeeth Qudsi; related by Muslim, al-Bukhâri, Nasâ'i and Ibn
Mâjah]
The Lord of the Worlds provides opportunities for the Muslim to earn His Forgiveness and continuously work
goodness. As humans we always look for a good deal in life; something that is profitable. Allâh
) is giving us something far more and greater than a mere worldly reward; rather He is offering something beyond anything that man can offer.
From the moment we awake to the moment we sleep, every moment has the potential to become a means of forgiveness for us. From the innumerate adhkar and du’a (supplication and invocation) we make at various juncture of our daily lives to the salah (obligated prayers); even to the way we conduct our personal and professional duties towards our families and work can become a means of ‘ibâdah (comprehensive worship).
Further to our daily junctures, we have weekly junctures that provide more opportunities to reap rewards and
forgiveness, for example on Jumu’ah (Friday); or the encouragement to fast on Mondays and Thursdays etc.


We also have opportunities to gain maximum rewards and times of forgiveness during the month of Ramadan.
These are but some of the opportunities which our Lord
(
) provides His creation with in order to forgive them. It takes a very little part on our behalf to gain something so precious and rewarding that it has been described as the true success for us: And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to
Paradise, he indeed is successful. (Aal Imrân: 185)
As Muslims, we understand the critical and negative consequences sin has on our salvation. Allâh is promising to turn our sins into good deeds! Can there be a better deal than this? Which human is there who is happy to take on your debt and in return give you equal amount of credit for free?
Allâh
(
) says in His Noble Book:
And those who invoke not any other illah (god) along with Allâh, nor kill such life as Allâh has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.
The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;
Except those who repent and believe (in Islâmic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds, for those, Allâh will
change their sins into good deeds, and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds, then verily, he repents towards Allâh with true
repentance. [Al Furqân: 68-71]
Indeed these four ayat should be received with the elation and happiness and hope. Allâh
(
) is promising to turn our sins into good deeds; what other result would we achieve if not success? Commenting on ayah 70, Ibn Katheer writes in his acclaimed tafseer: “Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Dharr said, "The Messenger of Allâh (
said: I know the last person who will be brought forth from
Hell, and the last person who will enter Paradise. A man will be brought and it will be said, "Take away his major sins and ask him about his minor sins.'' So it will be said to him: "On such and such a day, you did such and such, and on such and such a day, you did such and such.'' He will say, "Yes, and he will not be able to deny anything.'' Then it will be said to him: "For every evil deed you now have one good merit.'' He will say: "O Lord, I did things that I do not see here.'') He (Abu Dharr) said: "And the Messenger of Allâh (
smiled so broadly that his molars could be seen.'' Muslim recorded it. Ibn Abi Hâtim recorded that Abu Jabir heard Makhul say, "A very old man with sunken eyes came and said, `O Messenger of Allâh, a man betrayed others and did immoral deeds, and there was no evil deed which he did not do. If (his sins) were to be distributed among the whole of mankind, they would all be doomed. Is there any repentance for him'' The Messenger of Allâh said: (Have you become Muslim) He said, "As for me, I bear witness that there is no God but Allâh Alone, with no partner or associate, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger.'' The Prophet said: (Allâh will forgive you for whatever you have done like that, and will replace your evil deeds with good merits.) The man said: "O Messenger of Allâh, even my betrayals and immoral actions'' The Prophet said: (Even your betrayals and immoral actions.) The man went away saying `Lâ illâha illallâh' and `Allâhu Akbar.' Allâh tells us how His mercy extends to all His creatures, and that whoever among them repents to Him, He will accept his repentance for any sin, great or small.


Allâh
(
) says: And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds; then indeed he has repented to Allâh Mataba - meaning, Allâh will accept his repentance. This is like the Ayat: And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allâh's Forgiveness, he will find Allâh Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (An Nisa’: 110)
Know they not that Allâh accepts repentance from His slaves and takes theSadaqât (alms, charities) and that
Allah Alone is the One Who forgives and accepts repentance, Most Merciful? (At Tawbah: 104)








A large chuck of Torah was given to us by God to show the way to God’s forgiveness. when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. (Exodus 12:13) By the way, have you ever read Torah and understood the spiritual implication? Or still struggling to find the spiritual meaning of all kinds of animal sacrifices?
animal sacrifices and all other such nonsense seems to plague the christian and the Jew (although I doubt Jews are plagued by it)-- if God cared for sacrifices he wouldn't have spared Ishmeal life and granted life and celebration!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
11-09-2010, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
The only way people can come close to God is to become a child of God again.
How exactly?

Although we were created a child of God, we became the enemy of God with our rebellions and sins.
At what point did a child became the enemy of God? What did that child do? :skeleton:

Unless the problem of sin is dealt with completely, we could never go before God, thus eternally separated from God.
It would be helpful to explain what sins your referring to.

It does not matter how many good deeds you perform to compensate your past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement. Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin.
Paying what?

Sorry, I don't understand your post...
Reply

tango92
11-09-2010, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Could you tell me who are those few people that enjoy intimate friendship with God? People who spend lots of time for prayer? People who spend lots of time for fast? People who donate large money to the poor? Although these things can be good, they do not make people come truly close to God. The only way people can come close to God is to become a child of God again. Although we were created a child of God, we became the enemy of God with our rebellions and sins. Unless the problem of sin is dealt with completely, we could never go before God, thus eternally separated from God. It does not matter how many good deeds you perform to compensate your past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement. Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin. A large chuck of Torah was given to us by God to show the way to God’s forgiveness. when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. (Exodus 12:13) By the way, have you ever read Torah and understood the spiritual implication? Or still struggling to find the spiritual meaning of all kinds of animal sacrifices?
you answered basically a question i didnt ask. what you are saying is that believeing in jesus' crucifixion brings you close to God therefore all true christians believers are close to God?
Reply

Insaanah
11-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Seems God in Christianity is not as loving as Christians make him out to be. On the one hand they say He is loving, then they attribute all sorts of unloving behaviour to him.

Originally Posted by truth finder
It does not matter how many good deeds you perform to compensate your past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement.
It is like saying to a student, it doesn't matter how hard you study, even if you get very good marks you will never pass. Glorified be the Majesty of God above such injustice!

We try to do good works, and hope for His Mercy, and we know our good works will not be in vain if done sincerely for God.

Here is what Allah says:

"Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul bad deeds. This is reminder for the mindful. And be patient, for indeed, Allah does not allow to be lost the reward of those who do good." (11:114-115)

Originally Posted by truth finder
Complete forgiveness requires not only sincere repentance, but also paying the appropriate consequence for the sin.
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do not see this as forgiveness. forgiveness erases all debt and there is no longer a price to be paid. To be forgiven we need only to repent fully and strive to become loyal servants of Allaah(swt). When our repentance is accepted, there is no longer any bill to pay, we no longer need to pay the purchase price as there is no charge for Allaah(swt)'s mercy.
Peace.
Reply

Ramadhan
11-10-2010, 12:04 AM
Christians, like our latest resident evangelist truthfinder, are not aware that in Islam, we believe that ultimately only by God's mercy that we will be granted paradise as our good deeds alone is far from sufficient.

Meanwhile christians believe that God needs to pay for human sins for the entrance ticket to paradise.
No wonder many christians feel they can live their life to the "full" or to the "max" because they think God has paid for their sins and so they are guaranteed paradise, regardless of God's commands in their scripture.
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Christians like our latest evangelist, truthfinder, are not aware that in Islam, we believe that ultimately only by God's mercy that we will be granted paradise as our good deeds alone is far from sufficient. Meanwhile christians believe that God needs to pay for human sins for the entrance ticket to paradise. No wonder many christians feel they can live their life to the "full" or to the "max" because they think God has paid for their sins and so they are guaranteed paradise, regardless of God's commands in their scripture.
I saw this really funny clip today with evangies setting up shop in a mall with 'take a two minute quiz to see if you are going to make it into heaven' :lol: and the caption said 'can I get a receipt with that'-- everything about them outside of completely annoying and transgressing is just utterly insane. Surely they can't hope to win people with such nonsense? whatever happened to logic and intellect?

:w:
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 12:17 AM
here it is in fact:


Posted:
Tuesday, September 28, 2010
Reply

M.I.A.
11-10-2010, 02:02 AM
i find the term mangod really disrespectful, we all know who you are referring to and its not the proper way. dont hurt your own iman for the sake of an argument.
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
mangod really disrespectful,

Indeed christians are disrespectful to the magistrate of God:

مَّا لَكُمْ لَا تَرْجُونَ لِلَّهِ وَقَارًا (71:13)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Ma lakum la tarjoona lillahi waqaran
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Noah] [Noah:people of]
71:13 (Asad) "'What is amiss with you that you cannot look forward to God's majesty, [6] -
_________________________

we certainly don't worship what they worship, they don't worship what we worship and will not worship what we worship hence the mention of the verse twice:

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ (109:1)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:1 (Asad) SAY: "O you who deny the truth! -
لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ (109:2)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
La aAAbudu ma taAAbudoona
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:2 (Asad) "I do not worship that which you worship, -
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ (109:3)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala antum AAabidoona ma aAAbudu
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:3 (Asad) and neither do you worship that which I worship! [1] -
وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ (109:4)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala ana AAabidun ma AAabadtum
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:4 (Asad) "And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped, -
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ (109:5)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala antum AAabidoona ma aAAbudu
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:5 (Asad) and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship. [2] -
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ (109:6)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Lakum deenukum waliya deeni
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Islam] [Muhammad:faith of] [Unbelievers]
109:6 (Asad) Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine !" [3] -



Jesus (p) and Allah swt are above what they ascribe. These are their beliefs.. they believe in a man/god!

:w:
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 02:18 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Surah Ankabut 29:46-47

46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)." (Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

47. And thus We have sent down the Book (i.e this Qur'an) to you (O Muhammad ), and those whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) aforetime] believe therein as also do some of these (who are present with you now like 'Abdullah bin Salam) and none but the disbelievers reject Our Ayat [(proofs, signs, verses, lessons, etc., and deny Our Oneness of Lordship and Our Oneness of worship and Our Oneness of Our Names and Qualities: i.e. Islamic Monotheism)].
(Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 02:27 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):


Surah An Nahl 16:125
125. Invite (mankind, O Muhammad ) to the Way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Inspiration and the Qur'an) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided.
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 02:29 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Surah TA HA 20:44

44. "And speak to him mildly, perhaps he may accept admonition or fear Allah."
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 02:38 AM
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

Muslims believe only one Creator for all existence. There is no seperate God for Jews, Christians or Muslims.

The intrepretation of the adherents differ but Muslim's believe that the Creator of all existence (Allah) created everyone and everything in existence known and unknown.

Surah Ankabut 29:46-47

46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)." (Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)
Reply

M.I.A.
11-10-2010, 02:38 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


Indeed christians are disrespectful to the magistrate of God:

مَّا لَكُمْ لَا تَرْجُونَ لِلَّهِ وَقَارًا (71:13)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Ma lakum la tarjoona lillahi waqaran
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Noah] [Noah:people of]
71:13 (Asad) "'What is amiss with you that you cannot look forward to God's majesty, [6] -
_________________________

we certainly don't worship what they worship, they don't worship what we worship and will not worship what we worship hence the mention of the verse twice:

قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ (109:1)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Qul ya ayyuha alkafiroona
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:1 (Asad) SAY: "O you who deny the truth! -
لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ (109:2)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
La aAAbudu ma taAAbudoona
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:2 (Asad) "I do not worship that which you worship, -
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ (109:3)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala antum AAabidoona ma aAAbudu
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:3 (Asad) and neither do you worship that which I worship! [1] -
وَلَا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ (109:4)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala ana AAabidun ma AAabadtum
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:4 (Asad) "And I will not worship ~hat which you have [ever] worshipped, -
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ (109:5)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Wala antum AAabidoona ma aAAbudu
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Unbelievers]
109:5 (Asad) and neither will you [ever] worship that which I worship. [2] -
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ (109:6)
Basit - Hussari - Minshawi
Lakum deenukum waliya deeni
Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Islam] [Muhammad:faith of] [Unbelievers]
109:6 (Asad) Unto you, your moral law, and unto me, mine !" [3] -



Jesus (p) and Allah swt are above what they ascribe. These are their beliefs.. they believe in a man/god!

:w:
throwing quotes at me will not make you right, im sorry.
slandering a prophet of god and saying it is because somebody doesnt worship the same as you worship... well then i dont think i would worship the same as you worship.

keep it up, its disgraceful but will always get you the argument you are looking for.. spend your time throwing quotes at people these books were not books of argument. sure you could use them to fight and you obviously have more knowledge than i do but it gives me hope for those that are without.
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
throwing quotes at me will not make you right, im sorry. slandering a prophet of god and saying it is because somebody doesnt worship the same as you worship... well then i dont think i would worship the same as you worship. keep it up, its disgraceful but will always get you the argument you are looking for.. spend your time throwing quotes at people these books were not books of argument. sure you could use them to fight and you obviously have more knowledge than i do but it gives me hope for those that are without.

if you can offer that which is better to these people, then I implore you to do so!
I personally won't stand idle while these paganists (and that is exactly what they are) insult Islam, Muslims and far worse the prophet and God!

I notice the people who criticize the most have the least to contribute when something like this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ml#post1314553
presents itself!

:w:
Reply

M.I.A.
11-10-2010, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


if you can offer that which is better to these people, then I implore you to do so!
I personally won't stand idle while these paganists (and that is exactly what they are) insult Islam, Muslims and far worse the prophet and God!

I notice the people who criticize the most have the least to contribute when something like this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ml#post1314553
presents itself!

:w:
you sound like my brother, he has a way of disregarding what he said just a little before and changing things ever so slightly to make a whole new viewpoint. i love him for it as i know he will get by in this world. i pray that god keeps you safe and that all the knowlage you have amassed is used by god to the fullest extent.
anyway i dont mind playing the bad guy, constructive critisism on the mangod thing.... i cant offer anything better.
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 02:51 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i guess if i was really struggling i could kinda justify a trinity in example...
Originally Posted by M.I.A.

god says if you are two the he is a third and if you are three then he is a fourth.

you could say jesus peace and blessings be upon him was strengthened by the spirit.

2+1 = 3, not counting anyone else in the room.

i also could use that example to further explain the way muslims believe in the crusification of christ...

imagine two people who are accused and tortured daily.. both are there for a reason and both represent the will of god. sooner or later you would not be able to tell the difference between them. well i know i would try and be as he was (peace and blessings be upon him)

really random conjecture but i mean no malice or mischief, just really random thoughts... too much spare time.
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

M.I.A.:

We have the Quran as a guide that refutes the trinity claim or any thoughts that would support this doctrine.

Surah An Nisa 4:171

171. O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh)created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

Surah Al Ma'idah 5:72-75

72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the Messiah ['Isa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Isa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers) there are no helpers.

73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

74. Will they not repent to Allah and ask His Forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

75. The Messiah ['Isa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).
(Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

Surah Al Ma'idah 5:116-118

116. And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise ."
(Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan translation)

Jazakumullahu Khair
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i dont mind playing the bad guy,

I am not making you out to be the bad guy and if I were believe me the wording would have been very different. I am asking you to step to the foray and introduce that which is better.. I am definitely up for learning new techniques --always!

Personally I have no problems with someone who has a genuine interest in Islam and genuine queries.. unfortunately what we are getting here are the bottom sucking scum of the cesspool. There is no point to cast pearl before swine-- and even when pearls are cast they quickly lose value!

:w:
Reply

M.I.A.
11-10-2010, 02:58 AM
73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

yep, i guess i did wronge.
guess my concept of who the two were and who the one was is totally incorrect.


edit, also in my translation im sure it says it is better to say one than three although i cant site verse and book number, i know its from the yusaf ali version (if memorry serves, although i dont know the full context it is used in)
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "Allah is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no ilah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilah (God -Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.
Originally Posted by M.I.A.

yep, i guess i did wronge.
guess my concept of who the two were and who the one was is totally incorrect.


edit, also in my translation im sure it says it is better to say one than three although i cant site verse and book number, i know its from the yusaf ali version (if memorry serves, although i dont know the full context it is used in)
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

M.I.A.:

Reread the ayat (verse) The Disbelievers are those who said. Not Allah or Muslims.

Could this be a language translation issue? Just not quite understanding what you are really attempting to say.
Reply

M.I.A.
11-10-2010, 03:09 AM
Originally Posted by sabr*

As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

M.I.A.:

Reread the ayat (verse) The Disbelievers are those who said. Not Allah or Muslims.
yes but for all intents and purposes that is what i have posted. 2+1=3 it is very much implied lol my personal belief was that there was a schizophrenic+possessed person (peace and blessings be upon him) and god.

although neither of the two could do anything without the permission of god but thats just obvious. its what muslims believe.
Reply

sabr*
11-10-2010, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
yes but for all intents and purposes that is what i have posted. 2+1=3 it is very much implied lol my personal belief was that there was a schizophrenic+possessed person (peace and blessings be upon him) and god.
As-Salāmu `Alaykum (السلام عليكم):

M.I.A.:

First, how long have you been a Muslim if I may ask? If you don't desire to answer no problem. Those who have Iman (faith in Allah) and Taqwa (The fear of Allah) who are reading your responses may have a difficult time digesting the spirit of your posts that don't affirm our beliefs.

That is why I asked if there was a language issue. Allah 'Alim

I just suggest you take a break from the forum or this thread. Just not productive to continue.

Some suggested literature you might find helpful:

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2810.html

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b1849.html

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b1844.html

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7234.html

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b2719.html



Reply

Ramadhan
11-10-2010, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i find the term mangod really disrespectful, we all know who you are referring to and its not the proper way. dont hurt your own iman for the sake of an argument.
I am sorry but I don't understand you.

AFAIK, You have not voiced your objection to christians making a man as god (which is the worst thing a human can do, and is guaranteed for eternal punishment, as described in the scriptures), in fact, in a couple of your recent posts you said you could understand the concept of trinity and original sin (which is a highly questionable if not laughable for someone who claim to be a muslim), but you have a problem with us calling it as it is?

christians worship jesus pbuh as god.
Jesus pbuh is a man.
--> Christian worship the idea of a mangod.
Reply

truth finder
11-10-2010, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by tango92
you answered basically a question i didnt ask. what you are saying is that believeing in jesus' crucifixion brings you close to God therefore all true christians believers are close to God?
I apologize you if I answered a totally different question from your original one. I hope my new answer to be not totally irrelevant this time.

First of all you need to understand what righteousness means. Righteousness is a state where one can stand with God without any harm. Only when people have the righteousness of God, they can come close to God. This is possible if the person is perfectly sinless or has obeyed all of God’s perfect laws without fail. Unfortunately the believers of most religions struggle hard to reach this unachievable high standard by increasing the number of good deeds to compensate their past mistakes and sins in the balance of judgement. Because God’s laws are perfect, it is considered as broken when one fails to carry out all of them. “‘But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant (Leviticus 26:14-15) Although the intention is good, this human effort is bound to fail. However, God knows we are incapable of being perfect and sinless. He knows we are weak so that it is an impossible task for the sinful to achieve righteousness in their own effort. Out of His compassion and love for us, He Himself decided to come down to earth from heaven in order to give us Himself as righteousness. We become righteous by receiving Jesus as the righteousness of God (or as the forgiveness of God for our sins), not by trying to obey all of God’s perfect laws without fail or by increasing the number of good deeds to compensate our past mistakes and sins. This is a fundamental between Christian faith and all the other religions of the world.
Reply

siam
11-10-2010, 07:03 AM
Your definition of "Righteousness" is a Christian definition---based on the idea of original sin which posits that human beings are created inherently sinful. This means that to buy into your argument, one has to first accept the proposition of "original sin". However, since this is a purely Christian invention and no other religions buys into this idea----your argument doesn't apply/is irrelevant.

And "God's Laws"???---comming from a Christian who does not follow the Halaka, the very Laws Jesus Christ(pbuh) himself followed?---such as not eating pork??????
Reply

Ramadhan
11-10-2010, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by siam
And "God's Laws"???---comming from a Christian who does not follow the Halaka, the very Laws Jesus Christ(pbuh) himself followed?---such as not eating pork??????
Yep.
"God's laws" in christian terms is such an oxymoron.
what laws? christian have abrogated almost all of the laws that even Jesus followed.
As long as you accept that Jesus died to pay your sins, then all is well, and you should be full of joy because you are granted paradise.
No need to follow cumbersome laws that prohibit fornication, extra-marital sex, drinking, homosexuality, eating pork,etc etc and laws that regulate dress code, worships, etc. etc.
Reply

truth finder
11-10-2010, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by siam
Your definition of "Righteousness" is a Christian definition---based on the idea of original sin which posits that human beings are created inherently sinful. This means that to buy into your argument, one has to first accept the proposition of "original sin". However, since this is a purely Christian invention and no other religions buys into this idea----your argument doesn't apply/is irrelevant.

And "God's Laws"???---comming from a Christian who does not follow the Halaka, the very Laws Jesus Christ(pbuh) himself followed?---such as not eating pork??????
Thanks for your comment. The definition of righteousness is deducted by examining Torah carefully. Please read Torah carefully with the mind that you would look for the righteousness of God. Here God’s laws mainly refer to the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God, and some other laws.

In the Bible time God chose Israel as His object lesson for the whole world. To distinguish His own people from the rest, God gave them some visible instructions to follow. One of them was their strict diet and pork was forbidden to eat. Another well-known practice was circumcision on the flesh. Simply by observing what they eat, other people would know who are Israelites and who are not (gentiles). But when Jesus Christ finished his earthly mission as the perfect Lamb of God for our sins, the curtain in the temple was torn apart. This symbolizes tearing down the high barrier between God and people, between Israelites and gentiles. Now the true distinction between God’s people and the rest is determined by their heart, not by something external or on the outside such as the diet habit or the circumcision on the flesh.

In fact, some Muslims asked me this question in the past, “Do you eat pork?” The following was my honest answer to them. Personally I like seafood more than meat. If I order the preference of meat, it goes chicken, beef and pork. Pork is the least likely meat I would choose, but I do eat pork. As I have a loving fellowship with God as the Friend and Lover, my conscience in my heart tells me that all foods are clean and no food is unclean. What makes people unclean is what goes into their heart, not what goes into their stomach. In fact Jesus already stated this in the Gospel. Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:18-19) What makes people unclean is what goes into their heart, not what goes into their stomach. The heart of matter is the matter of heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
In fact Jesus already stated this in the Gospel. Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:18-19)
It wasn't Jesus at all who uttered those words and I invite you to reference them back to him.. and if you construe that 'Jesus' is god, then it would make him a very ignorant god, because plenty of what enters man is NOT ONLY UNCLEAN but can cause death in a matter of three days!
surely a god would know that and advise the people 'he so loves' against an immediate doom!


all the best
Reply

YusufNoor
11-10-2010, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
In fact, some Muslims asked me this question in the past, “Do you eat pork?” The following was my honest answer to them. Personally I like seafood more than meat. If I order the preference of meat, it goes chicken, beef and pork. Pork is the least likely meat I would choose, but I do eat pork. As I have a loving fellowship with God as the Friend and Lover, my conscience in my heart tells me that all foods are clean and no food is unclean. What makes people unclean is what goes into their heart, not what goes into their stomach. In fact Jesus already stated this in the Gospel. Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:18-19) What makes people unclean is what goes into their heart, not what goes into their stomach. The heart of matter is the matter of heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
:heated::heated::heated:

Christians are so funny!

quoting the author of Mark:

Mark 7:18-19 (New International Version)

18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
that little enlarged part is NOT part of the text!

what's even funnier is a few verses before it:

What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "
now Christians often[not all Christians, ask Hiroshi] use this verse to declare ALL FOODS "clean." think about this...

are you ready Purest?

i use foul language [let's say] and naidamar does not...

does this mean that naidamar can be eaten for dinner because he is clean and i can't because i'm not???

ridiculous! ;D

the verses are about whether or not you are truly following the religion, NOT what you can eat!

shheeesh! :omg:

peace
Reply

IAmZamzam
11-10-2010, 03:58 PM
Still planning to get around to addressing me, truth finder?
Reply

truth finder
11-10-2010, 05:18 PM
If a certain act is considered sinful, it always creates urge or desire to disgrace God, nor hurt other people or themselves physically and emotionally. For example, taking drug is sinful because it destroys the body and mind of the person. Stealing money from somebody is sinful because it hurts the victim financially and emotionally. It is very interesting to see that most readers are so sensitive to eating pork. Is this because eating pork does create a lust or sexual desire to commit sin? Is this because eating pork does create a temper to curse and hurt other people? Is this because eating pork does create a desire to deny God or question God's words? Is this because eating pork does create an urge to disobey God? But eating pork does none of these for non-Muslims. Pork is just fat and protein. From nutritional and hygienic points of view there are many other foods worse than pork. What makes people unclean is what goes into our heart, not what goes into our stomach. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
If a certain act is considered sinful, it always creates urge or desire to disgrace God, nor hurt other people or themselves physically and emotionally. For example, taking drug is sinful because it destroys the body and mind of the person. Stealing money from somebody is sinful because it hurts the victim financially and emotionally. It is very interesting to see that most readers are so sensitive to eating pork. Is this because eating pork does create a lust or sexual desire to commit sin? Is this because eating pork does create a temper to curse and hurt other people? Is this because eating pork does create a desire to deny God or question God's words? Is this because eating pork does create an urge to disobey God? But eating pork does none of these for non-Muslims. Pork is just fat and protein. From nutritional and hygienic points of view there are many other foods worse than pork. What makes people unclean is what goes into our heart, not what goes into our stomach. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
pork and pigs in general can cause a laundry list of maladies that are too numerous to list in one thread, and though similar but not worse problems can arise from others foods, we are forbidden from consuming anything that may cause harm-- all there needs to be for a prohibition to take hold is for God to order it be!
Love comes in several forms and one of them is living by God's commands and not simply assuming and taking for granted that he loves sinfulness because you decided so against what it says in the books!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
It is very interesting to see that most readers are so sensitive to eating pork. Is this because eating pork does create a lust or sexual desire to commit sin? Is this because eating pork does create a temper to curse and hurt other people? Is this because eating pork does create a desire to deny God or question God's words? Is this because eating pork does create an urge to disobey God?
Please consider reading this article.
Reply

truth finder
11-10-2010, 06:01 PM
Thanks for your comment. Just now I googled to find which nation or which group has the longest life expectancy in the world. None of countries that avoid eating pork (Muslim countries) belong to this category! Instead, people belonging to the societies having very long life expectancy turn out to maintain a variety of diet including pork and moderate amount of alcohol! Just google it by yourself if you cannot believe me. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your comment. Just now I googled to find which nation or which group has the longest life expectancy in the world. None of countries that avoid eating pork (Muslim countries) belong to this category! Instead, people belonging to the societies having very long life expectancy turn out to maintain a variety of diet including pork and moderate amount of alcohol! Just google it by yourself if you cannot believe me. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!

life expectancy isn't contingent on eating pigs and drinking liquor- other factors come to play. Water/Medicine living conditions.
You'd be interested to know that 'Mormons' the other group of christians you deem heretics have an even longer life expectancy because they don't consume alcohol or smoke cigarettes ..
here is an article from the New England Journal of Medicine:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...97601152940303

you don't want to take me on that road, believe me, you'll not come out a winner!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your comment. Just now I googled to find which nation or which group has the longest life expectancy in the world. None of countries that avoid eating pork (Muslim countries) belong to this category! Instead, people belonging to the societies having very long life expectancy turn out to maintain a variety of diet including pork and moderate amount of alcohol!
So pork and alcohol is an indicator of life expectancy? :uuh:

In case you have not realised, many Muslim countries are poor, where the citizens do not have access to clean water, live in poor conditions and do not have access to medical facilities.

Just google it by yourself if you cannot believe me. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
Post a link to back up your claim.
Reply

truth finder
11-10-2010, 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


life expectancy isn't contingent on eating pigs and drinking liquor- other factors come to play. Water/Medicine living conditions.
You'd be interested to know that 'Mormons' the other group of christians you deem heretics have an even longer life expectancy because they don't consume alcohol or smoke cigarettes ..
here is an article from the New England Journal of Medicine:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...97601152940303

you don't want to take me on that road, believe me, you'll not come out a winner!

all the best

Let us compare apple to apple. Take Muslim countries in the North Africa and Middle East, which strictly avoid eating pork. Take Western European countries, which eat a variety of food including pork and moderate amount of alcohol. Do I need to waste my time digging into internet to find which society has much longer life expectancy?
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جوري
11-10-2010, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Let us compare apple to apple. Take Muslim countries in the North Africa and Middle East, which strictly avoid eating pork. Take Western European countries, which eat a variety of food including pork and moderate amount of alcohol. Do I need to waste my time digging into internet to find which society has much longer life expectancy?
'Muslim countries' in the middle east make up only 20% of the Muslim population world wide.. indeed you'd need to 'waste your time' to back up your inane allegations. I'll definitely be waiting on the report that shows how neurocysticercosis beats out beans and rice.. and while at it, you might want to familiarize yourself with who Muslims are. Muslims are in every country, and you'd be surprised that the the largest population of Muslims is neither in the middle east nor Africa. You are so incredibly under-educated it is almost an insult to engage you at all!

all the best
Reply

Insaanah
11-10-2010, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") (Mark 7:18-19)
Since when does clean = allowed? Nowhere in this passage does Jesus (peace be upon him) say that all food is lawful, and the parenthesis have been added afterwards and are not part of the original text. There are other foods that were forbidden to the Children of Israel, but not on the account of being unclean. If you look up the word clean in a dictionary, you will not find any definition of it that states that it means lawful. Also, let's go back in the same passage in Mark and see what Jesus (peace be upon him) says to the pharisees:

And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ (Mark 7:6-7)

Current day Christians are doing exactly the same, by worshipping Jesus (peace be upon him) and following the commandment of a man as a result of his dream!

Peace.
Reply

جوري
11-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Current day Christians are doing exactly the same, by following the commandment of a man as a result of his dream!

Everything about Christians has turned into a joke including how they reason, can you believe the moronity of this fellow, thinking 'life expectancy' denotes that eating pigs and drinking liquor is best?

perhaps he should consider the following:

more Muslims in Germany than in Lebanon and more in China than in Syria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lim_population

perhaps further looking into his own claims, since countries like kuwait and united Arab Emirates have an even longer life expectancy than their western counter-part.. perhaps in his pea sized brain containing two cells held together by a blessed spirochete will enable him the notion that socio-economic conditions and not pigs and liquor is the determining factor in that 'life expectancy' span that has so amused him..

:w:
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GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Do I need to waste my time digging into internet to find which society has much longer life expectancy?
Of course, what you are suggesting is absolutely ridiculous. I would like to see prove of this.
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truth finder
11-10-2010, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
So pork and alcohol is an indicator of life expectancy? :uuh:

In case you have not realised, many Muslim countries are poor, where the citizens do not have access to clean water, live in poor conditions and do not have access to medical facilities.



Post a link to back up your claim.
You misunderstand my point completely. I am not saying that the consumption of pork and alcohol increases life expectancy, but I am saying that the strict banning of pork and alcohol for the sake of health is grossly unjustified. It is better not to mention it, because it is to your disadvantage.
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جوري
11-10-2010, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You misunderstand my point completely. I am not saying that the consumption of pork and alcohol increases life expectancy, but I am saying that the strict banning of pork and alcohol for the sake of health is grossly unjustified. It is better not to mention it, because it is to your disadvantage
you shouldn't mention it indeed because it is a serious blunder from which you can have no hope to recover your credibility, not that you've ever had credibility to begin with:

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Everything about Christians has turned into a joke including how they reason, can you believe the moronity of this fellow, thinking 'life expectancy' denotes that eating pigs and drinking liquor is best? perhaps he should consider the following: more Muslims in Germany than in Lebanon and more in China than in Syria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lim_population perhaps further looking into his own claims, since countries like kuwait and united Arab Emirates have an even longer life expectancy than their western counter-part.. perhaps in his pea sized brain containing two cells held together by a blessed spirochete will enable him the notion that socio-economic conditions and not pigs and liquor is the determining factor in that 'life expectancy' span that has so amused him..
the disadvantage I fear is yours pig/liquor lover.. you are what you eat and drink after all!
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أحمد
11-10-2010, 06:40 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by truth finder
You misunderstand my point completely. I am not saying that the consumption of pork and alcohol increases life expectancy, but I am saying that the strict banning of pork and alcohol for the sake of health is grossly unjustified. It is better not to mention it, because it is to your disadvantage.
Sharing knowledge isn't to anyone's disadvantage, if you've got evidence to present; go ahead.

:wa:
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GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
It is better not to mention it, because it is to your disadvantage.
Then you should not have mentioned it in the first place... =/
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truth finder
11-10-2010, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:



Sharing knowledge isn't to anyone's disadvantage, if you've got evidence to present; go ahead.

:wa:
I chose 5 most religious Muslim countries from North Africa and Middle East. The data was collected by UN, not USA. The first five countries are known to enjoy a variety of food including pork and moderate amount of alcohol.

Ranking Country Life Expectancy Pork/(moderate) alcohol
1 Japan 83 Yes
2 Hong Kong 82 Yes
3 Iceland 82 Yes
4 Switzerland 82 Yes
5 Australia 81 Yes
85 Saudi Arabia 73 No
108 Iran 71 No
156 Sudan 59 No
181 Somalia 48 No
188 Afghanistan 47 (before 9/11) No
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جوري
11-10-2010, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I chose 5 most religious Muslim countries from North Africa and Middle East. The data was collected by UN, not USA. The first five countries are known to enjoy a variety of food including pork and moderate amount of alcohol. Ranking Country Life Expectancy Pork/(moderate) alcohol 1 Japan 83 Yes 2 Hong Kong 82 Yes 3 Iceland 82 Yes 4 Switzerland 82 Yes 5 Australia 81 Yes 85 Saudi Arabia 73 No 108 Iran 71 No 156 Sudan 59 No 181 Somalia 48 No 188 Afghanistan 47 (before 9/11) No

Again we are asking what does this prove? further, how do you define 'most religious'? you are so incredibly silly, I think you should disable your account come up with a new identity to fit with that alleged 'PhD' :haha:
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GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
I chose 5 most religious Muslim countries from North Africa and Middle East. The data was collected by UN, not USA. The first five countries are known to enjoy a variety of food including pork and moderate amount of alcohol.

Ranking Country Life Expectancy Pork/(moderate) alcohol
1 Japan 83 Yes
2 Hong Kong 82 Yes
3 Iceland 82 Yes
4 Switzerland 82 Yes
5 Australia 81 Yes
85 Saudi Arabia 73 No
108 Iran 71 No
156 Sudan 59 No
181 Somalia 48 No
188 Afghanistan 47 (before 9/11) No
Firstly, do you have a link to verify this? I can easily come up with numbers and claim that they come from this source.

Secondly, how would you define ''most religious?'' Is there such criteria to determine whether a Muslim is religious or not?

Thirdly, I don't understand what this proves. There are so many factors relating to life expectancy...
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أحمد
11-10-2010, 08:47 PM
:sl:

To add to the list by truth finder:
194 Swaziland 39 Yes

:wa:
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CosmicPathos
11-10-2010, 09:23 PM
Disappointment with God can take various forms. It could be benign such that the person says things which are against God yet continues to believe in God. In extreme forms, the person is so disappointed with the God that he begins to question His existence. This form can lead to agnosticism and atheism.

Disappointment with God (and rejection of His existence) will not change the course of things in life for the person who is disappointed with God. The world and all that within it is fleeting. One feels embittered if one adopts a materialistic point of view. Embittered because everyone else seems to be doing good in their careers ... for example, you mentioned about your PhD and how you felt that you did not get the professorship while others were getting it. Everything seems futile and hatred for people, who are ahead of you, starts seeping in because you start looking at the world through selfish lens because it seems apparently that you are the only figure of loss in this world. In short, disappointment with God is a pathological state for soul and it can be deadly ....

its best to catch it in earlier stages and develop complete dependence on Allah. Since you brought academics in, you should develop a worldview in which you start believing that getting publications in top journals such as Nature etc should not the goal of your life. If you like to contribute to research and human knowledge, it is a worthwhile goal but dont make it the only goal of your life. It will only bring disappointment. In general, kaafirs/non-Muslims are much more involved in dunya and hence they make great scientists, because that is their purpose of life i.e. love for science. I talk from my personal experience with my professors, non-Muslim peers etc. I am not saying that a Muslim believer settles for a second place, no. Not at all. A believer aims for perfection. In everything. His world as well as his hereafter. But the focus on achieving perfection in the world is to be able to attain perfection in hereafter. But in the end, if a believer is not able to attain perfection in dunya in the ways he wanted, for example getting the professor position, he believes that his God has better plans for him.
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truth finder
11-10-2010, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
Yes, you are right that there are some countries that allow pork and alcohol but has shorter life expectancy than Somalia and Afghanistan. Eating pork or not has virtually nothing with life expectancy or health. Eating pork also does not create sinful desire and urge to disgrace God, or hurt other people or themselves physically and emotionally. Pork is just protein and fat, not much different from other animals. What makes people unclean is what goes into our heart, not what goes into our stomach. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!
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جوري
11-10-2010, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Yes, you are right that there are some countries that allow pork and alcohol but has shorter life expectancy than Somalia and Afghanistan. Eating pork or not has virtually nothing with life expectancy or health. Eating pork also does not create sinful desire and urge to disgrace God, or hurt other people or themselves physically and emotionally. Pork is just protein and fat, not much different from other animals. What makes people unclean is what goes into our heart, not what goes into our stomach. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!

If eating pork has nothing to do with life-expectancy why did you list it with the intention of making it as such. namely that eating pork and drinking liquor has been beneficial. Were you hoping for your average oafish audience? Is that what you are accustomed to in your churches? No one really seems to expend a thought so why bother with a thoughtful conjecture?
Since you are NOT GOD you can't speak for god, indeed those who break the commandments don't disgrace God, they disgrace themselves. God is above the creation, their prayers, fast and worship are meaningless save for the sincerity in the heart and the acceptance of this sincerity from a merciful God. I mean exactly what are you hoping for? now that you have declared pork clean and with greater life expectancy that we are all going to run out and get some pork? You are unclean by everything you do what your mouth utters, what your heart hides and the way you live your life in constant breakage of God's commandments. If you are happy with that life style then be happy and buzz off!

all the best
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serena77
11-10-2010, 11:26 PM
i'm going back to the thread title and i hpe that doesn't upset anyone.... the pork discussion i'm sure will go on around me.... but... you know... my parents divorced...both remarried... one of them twice, i'm 33.. my dad is now gone..... i reminded him too much of mom so he didnt like me much anyway.. i've had to leave school.. not once but twice... both due to assualts... one by an ex boyfriend and one by my best friends's brother ... I have more mental illness issues than i really like to admit....

but w/ all of that... i never blamed God... I was never disappointed in what he did... he did allow me to survive the things that happened to me... and he allows me to be alive today... so its very hard for me to be disappointed... even though i've had many people tell me i had every right to be.
Serena
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جوري
11-10-2010, 11:57 PM
Originally Posted by serena77
i'm going back to the thread title and i hpe that doesn't upset anyone.... the pork discussion i'm sure will go on around me.... but... you know... my parents divorced...both remarried... one of them twice, i'm 33.. my dad is now gone..... i reminded him too much of mom so he didnt like me much anyway.. i've had to leave school.. not once but twice... both due to assualts... one by an ex boyfriend and one by my best friends's brother ... I have more mental illness issues than i really like to admit.... but w/ all of that... i never blamed God... I was never disappointed in what he did... he did allow me to survive the things that happened to me... and he allows me to be alive today... so its very hard for me to be disappointed... even though i've had many people tell me i had every right to be. Serena
Serena the negative things that happen to us is what shapes our character and makes us evolve into what we are. If we spill these things outside and don't let it humble us and make us grow we let go of a golden opportunity. In my opinion it is suffering that humanizes the soul..

peace
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serena77
11-11-2010, 12:07 AM
i never said i didnt agree that i learned a lot.... i wouldn't be able to do half the creative things i could w/o the aspergers.... but.. my point was.... there was /is no disappointment in God. It doesn't seem right to be disappointed in Allah *swt* i'm sure some would disagree its just not something i could do.
Serena
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Ramadhan
11-11-2010, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
If a certain act is considered sinful, it always creates urge or desire to disgrace God, nor hurt other people or themselves physically and emotionally. For example, taking drug is sinful because it destroys the body and mind of the person. Stealing money from somebody is sinful because it hurts the victim financially and emotionally. It is very interesting to see that most readers are so sensitive to eating pork. Is this because eating pork does create a lust or sexual desire to commit sin? Is this because eating pork does create a temper to curse and hurt other people? Is this because eating pork does create a desire to deny God or question God's words? Is this because eating pork does create an urge to disobey God? But eating pork does none of these for non-Muslims. Pork is just fat and protein. From nutritional and hygienic points of view there are many other foods worse than pork. What makes people unclean is what goes into our heart, not what goes into our stomach. The heart of the matter is the matter of the heart, not the matter of protein and fat!

I think you'd better direct your rant above to Jesus pbuh who was STICTLY A NON-PORK EATER.

If you want to eat pork, just eat it.
If you want to have extranmarital sex, just do it
If you want to drink alcohol, just drink it
If you want to have gay sexual acts, just do it.
If you want to dress your daughter in tight bikini and prancing around the malls, just do it

After all, those things are getting more and more popular among the christians these days.

Certainly not something that jesus pbuh did or teach anyone they can do those things.

Just do those things, but do NOT smear lies against Jesus pbuh, and claim that He pbuh allowed you do those things.


footnote:
isnt it interesting that muslims respect jesus pbuh and mary pbuh a lot more than christians?
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Ramadhan
11-11-2010, 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
You misunderstand my point completely. I am not saying that the consumption of pork and alcohol increases life expectancy, but I am saying that the strict banning of pork and alcohol for the sake of health is grossly unjustified. It is better not to mention it, because it is to your disadvantage.
No one here as far as I know said that pork and alcohol should be banned for health reasons. Muslims say that alcohol and pork should not be consumed because it is God's commands. period.
There are of course benefits (hikmah) in obeying God's commands, some of those we know (such as ill-effects of alcohols and diseases carried by pork), while most we don't.

You are making up things and attributing it to others.

This is what early priests and scribes did: making up things and attributing it to Jesus pbuh.
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Ramadhan
11-11-2010, 04:17 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
To add to the list by truth finder (Disappointment with God):
194 Swaziland 39 Yes

LOL.
I was too late. I was going to present him with my own list too.

I just cannot believe he has Phd. PhD in what?
He cannot even perform basic critical thinking.
He's an evangelist though.
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truth finder
11-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by serena77
i'm going back to the thread title and i hpe that doesn't upset anyone.... the pork discussion i'm sure will go on around me.... but... you know... my parents divorced...both remarried... one of them twice, i'm 33.. my dad is now gone..... i reminded him too much of mom so he didnt like me much anyway.. i've had to leave school.. not once but twice... both due to assualts... one by an ex boyfriend and one by my best friends's brother ... I have more mental illness issues than i really like to admit....

but w/ all of that... i never blamed God... I was never disappointed in what he did... he did allow me to survive the things that happened to me... and he allows me to be alive today... so its very hard for me to be disappointed... even though i've had many people tell me i had every right to be.
Serena
I agree with your point, which is likely shared by many other people as well. But disappointment was what I really felt at that moment and I wanted to be totally honest to God about my emotions. In contrast to the common perception that God would not be pleased with me, I felt the deepest love of God at that moment. I learned the treasure of being honest with God very hard way. Afterwards I share the following story with other people.

Honesty is one of the major virtues for the character of a person. It is more so in our relationship with God. If you want a deeper, more intimate relationship with God, you must learn to honesty share your feelings with Him. God wants complete honesty – about your faults and your feelings. God does not expect you to be perfect, but He insists on complete honesty. None of God’s friends in the Bible were perfect. If perfection was a requirement for friendship with God, we would never be able to be His friends. Fortunately, because of God’s grace, Jesus is still the friend of sinners. In the Bible, the friends of God were honest about their feelings, often complaining, second-guessing, accusing, and even arguing with their Creator. God, however, did not seem to be bothered by this frankness; in fact, He encouraged it!

For example, God allowed Abraham to question and challenge Him over the destruction of the city of Sodom. Abraham pestered God over what it would take to spare the city, negotiating God down from fifty righteous people to only ten. God also listened patiently to David’s many accusations of unfairness, betrayal, and abandonment. God did not slay Jeremiah when he claimed that God had tricked him. Job was allowed to vent his bitterness during his ordeal, and in the end, God defended Job for being honest, and He rebuked Job’s friends for being inauthentic.

God is our Creator and Maker, Lord and Master, Judge, Redeemer, Father, Savior and much more. But the most wonderful truth is this: The almighty God also yearns to be our Friend and Lover! I wish all of us would have fall in love with God so intimately and deeply that they would feel like they were the only person in the entire universe with God!
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
I just cannot believe he has Phd. PhD in what? He cannot even perform basic critical thinking.
Do you really find that to be a less common trait among the learned than the unlearned?
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truth finder
11-11-2010, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

Preaching a faith other than Islam or inviting others to that faith, is against the rules of the forum. I hope the mods will either edit the above post, or do what they deem fit, and then delete this post of mine if necessary.



Source: http://www.islamicboard.com/faq.php?...orum_rules#faq
I have shared the story with various groups of other people including our friends, which was just copied and pasted here. If you feel uncomfortable with the word “invite”, I will not use the word in the future.
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جوري
11-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Do you really find that to be a less common trait among the learned than the unlearned?

I'd have to say for someone who introduces himself as a PhD undoubtedly hoping his PhD (albeit in under water basket-weaving and perhaps tandem biking) would loan some weightiness to his vision, purpose of thread and direction that we should expect to be slightly dazzled with persuasions that require some thought on our part at least during that portion of the day when we brush our teeth-- but aside from the patent lunacy and if at all lucid when he writes sophistry there is nothing here but laughable premises that have positively no relevance to thread or points raised. worse yet he can't even acknowledge the error of his ways and persists in his folly spite of repeated remonstrations that are cited from esteemed journals.

Why should anyone be forgiving of that whether or not he holds this alleged PhD?

:w:
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 05:13 PM
I said nothing about being forgiving, I only pointed out that one should not speak of a philosophy degree as if it means anything in terms of the quality of argumentation. William Lane Craig has made a whole career out of exploiting that fallacy.* There are perhaps more educated fools in the world than there are unlettered ones--or at least the educated ones are worse--since at least the ignorant are not brainwashed by the biases of their profession's intellectual atmosphere.



* He has a rule that he debates only Ph.D.'s, and while this may be seen as the act of a prima donna it is at least partially a cowardly tactic, a virtual assurance that most of his opponents are professionals at some vaguely connected form of scholasticism yet amateurs at debate and even complex reasoning. All you have to do to get a degree in almost anything is memorize facts out of a book and know how to B.S. your way through essays. Don't forget that George W. Bush got high marks at Yale.
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truth finder
11-11-2010, 05:25 PM
[QUOTE=naidamar;1383326]
If you want to eat pork, just eat it.
[QUOTE]
Yes, because it has nothing to do with health, it does not create sinful desire to disgrace God, hurt other human beings or themselves physically, emotionally and spiritually. But if the person is a vegetarian, or has allergy with pork meat, or has a digestion problem with pork, then it is better not to eat it.

[QUOTE]
If you want to have extranmarital sex, just do it
[QUOTE]
No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and the other innocent spouses emotionally and spiritually

[QUOTE]
If you want to drink alcohol, just drink it
[QUOTE]
No for heavy drinking such as getting drunk, Yes for light consumption such as a few glasses of wine during the meal

[QUOTE]
If you want to have gay sexual acts, just do it.
[QUOTE]
No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and most of all it disgraces God

[QUOTE]
If you want to dress your daughter in tight bikini and prancing around the malls, just do it
[QUOTE]
It is strongly discouraged because it could provoke the sexual desire of some weird sick men.
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جوري
11-11-2010, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
All you have to do to get a degree in almost anything is memorize facts out of a book and know how to B.S. your way through essays. Don't forget that George W. Bush got high marks at Yale.
very true.. I'd argue however that to hold a doctorate you'd have to spew some peer reviewed bull for some future B.S hopefuls to memorize and regurgitate back at some point.. I find it unfortunate all together that someone would resort to this:

Blowhard feels the need to present his credentials before entering the fray - even if they are irrelevant to the discussion. For example, in a movie forum conflict he might attempt to settle the matter by saying, "As a Ph. D. candidate in particle physics I believe I can say with some authority that the 'Beavis and Butthead' movie represents the emergence of a new cultural paradigm." Huh?

_________________________________


as amusing as all this is, I need to make my rounds with Eid greetings and not let that joy be marred by resident trolls whatever form they make take..

:w:
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by thevaleslily
very true.. I'd argue however that to hold a doctorate you'd have to spew some peer reviewed bull for some future B.S hopefuls to memorize and regurgitate back at some point..
And we all know that being peer reviewed somehow makes an argument more trustworthy!

Blowhard feels the need to present his credentials before entering the fray - even if they are irrelevant to the discussion. For example, in a movie forum conflict he might attempt to settle the matter by saying, "As a Ph. D. candidate in particle physics I believe I can say with some authority that the 'Beavis and Butthead' movie represents the emergence of a new cultural paradigm." Huh?
There is no need to resort to namecalling. All the same, that kind of thing is not at all unheard of. Just recently Roger Ebert very seriously argued that there is a certain amount of factuality to his opinion about a certain movie, and said that he doesn't mind being a snob because as a man extremely well trained in the art of cinema he is more "qualified" in his opinions than the average person. The same fellow who said that there's nothing wrong with being an elitist. And people still take him seriously as a critic! (In case anyone is wondering, I do agree with him in my dislike of the film in question, Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen, but as much as I detest that movie I will sooner choke to death on my own bile than say that I am factually right and the people who enjoy the film are making an objective mistake. I am offended by the cheerful embrace of arrogance and nonsense, not the actual estimation of the movie that said embrace was made over.)

as amusing as all this is, I need to make my rounds with Eid greetings and not let that joy be marred by resident trolls whatever form they make take..
Good advice, and I urge you to heed it more often. Forbearance is a difficult virtue--nobody knows that better than I, it's possibly my greatest moral weakness--but we are commanded to perform it.
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truth finder
11-11-2010, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Disappointment with God can take various forms. It could be benign such that the person says things which are against God yet continues to believe in God. In extreme forms, the person is so disappointed with the God that he begins to question His existence. This form can lead to agnosticism and atheism.

Disappointment with God (and rejection of His existence) will not change the course of things in life for the person who is disappointed with God. The world and all that within it is fleeting. One feels embittered if one adopts a materialistic point of view. Embittered because everyone else seems to be doing good in their careers ... for example, you mentioned about your PhD and how you felt that you did not get the professorship while others were getting it. Everything seems futile and hatred for people, who are ahead of you, starts seeping in because you start looking at the world through selfish lens because it seems apparently that you are the only figure of loss in this world. In short, disappointment with God is a pathological state for soul and it can be deadly ....

its best to catch it in earlier stages and develop complete dependence on Allah. Since you brought academics in, you should develop a worldview in which you start believing that getting publications in top journals such as Nature etc should not the goal of your life. If you like to contribute to research and human knowledge, it is a worthwhile goal but dont make it the only goal of your life. It will only bring disappointment. In general, kaafirs/non-Muslims are much more involved in dunya and hence they make great scientists, because that is their purpose of life i.e. love for science. I talk from my personal experience with my professors, non-Muslim peers etc. I am not saying that a Muslim believer settles for a second place, no. Not at all. A believer aims for perfection. In everything. His world as well as his hereafter. But the focus on achieving perfection in the world is to be able to attain perfection in hereafter. But in the end, if a believer is not able to attain perfection in dunya in the ways he wanted, for example getting the professor position, he believes that his God has better plans for him.
I really appreciate your thoughtful comment without bullying others as some Muslims readers do it intentionally. I agree with most of your points. But one more point I wish to add to. Believers should not worry too much about the doubt of God or his existence. They should find their own answer through struggles by facing it just like I did in my struggle. The existence of God is so strong that it should defeat any of our doubt and question about him. People need to face it instead of running away from it. Babies who grow up in an incubator will get easily infected and sick, while babies who grow up with germs will stay strong and resistant to them. This is my personal experience.
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جوري
11-11-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
And we all know that being peer reviewed somehow makes an argument more trustworthy!
Not at all.. having a few published papers myself, I know what fudging goes to create a desired set of data as deadlines draw close!


There is no need to resort to namecalling. All the same, that kind of thing is not at all unheard of. Just recently Roger Ebert very seriously argued that there is a certain amount of factuality to his opinion about a certain movie, and said that he doesn't mind being a snob because as a man extremely well trained in the art of cinema he is more "qualified" in his opinions than the average person. The same fellow who said that there's nothing wrong with being an elitist. And people still take him seriously as a critic! (In case anyone is wondering, I do agree with him in my dislike of the film in question, Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen, but as much as I detest that movie I will sooner choke to death on my own bile than say that I am factually right and the people who enjoy the film are making an objective mistake. I am offended by the cheerful embrace of arrogance and nonsense, not the actual estimation of the movie that said embrace was made over.)
I am not at all name-calling.. I am not even the one who came up with the cartoons.. they are prototypes of the sort of forum members we tend to have.. I am sure we are all guilty of one or the other..



Good advice, and I urge you to heed it more often. Forbearance is a difficult virtue--nobody knows that better than I, it's possibly my greatest moral weakness--but we are commanded to perform it.
Indeed-- I value my opinion enough to know when forbearance is merited and when something else is..

:w:
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 07:26 PM
Forbearance isn't something you can pick and choose. We're supposed to practice it pretty much constantly. Forgiveness is supposed to be the chief virtue, and we are commanded to argue with unbelievers in the fairer manner.
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جوري
11-11-2010, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
we are commanded to argue with unbelievers in the fairer manner.
Tolerance and forbearance by definition is the readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. I believe I have done that. We can't all practice your methodology and certainly don't start with your baseline for forbearance. I am who I am and you are who you are!


:w:
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Tolerance and forbearance by definition is the readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. I believe I have done that.
No, I'm sorry, but you haven't. Not that I always have either, but you hardly ever seem to make a single post that contains anything but obloquy. It's too easy to use the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing as an excuse for acting extremely unlovingly to the sinner, I know. There's still no getting around the fact of the thing. I think both of us are going to have to try harder from now on. It's not easy to refute the same nonsense for a 900th time and still behave patiently while doing so; it's an obstacle I face every day, and I don't always overcome it. But we have to try, and the first step of overcoming a bad habit is recognizing that you have a problem. Do you suppose the Prophets (P) would have behaved as you do?
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جوري
11-11-2010, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Do you suppose the Prophets (P) would have behaved as you do?

We are not prophets.. certainly they lead by example and we should follow in their footsteps.. however, even they who were chosen for their best of manners had their moments.
You make the mistake of believing that some of these people expend any effort even reading what you refute. I invite you to look at Hugo's posts for instance, and see how many times he (singularly) posted the same allegations and a thousand times they've been refuted and a thousand times he regroups to re-posts them-- I can simply blame the mods for there should definitely be some infractions given out forum rules against such an act.. I am not sure how they'd define it in a legally binding way-- until such a time it is indeed prudent to hate the verruca as well excise it. I promise to make an effort but to those worthy of such an effort!

:w:
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IAmZamzam
11-11-2010, 09:46 PM
The mods could just as well fry you for repeated defamation and direct insulting of various board members. "The most virtuous behavior is to engage those who sever relations, to give to those who withhold from you, and to forgive those who wrong you." I would very much like for us to be permitted to be selective as to who we are forbearant towards based on what we think they deserve, but it's not allowed.
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جوري
11-11-2010, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
The mods could just as well fry you for repeated defamation and direct insulting of various board members.

I welcome that, and have received ample infractions and hopeful that they are equally distributed perhaps one day it will spell the last of folks like Hugo and other rancorous evangelists .. It is worth it in my opinion to speak a word of truth means more to me than to be tolerant although I do think you are carrying this a tad too far and repeatedly (perhaps this strange obsession you have with what I write can be channeled in a few different ways)--
1- you can report it and let some other referee decide what is and what isn't suitable forum content.
2- ignore it and focus your attention to the topic and matter at hand not only enabling others to see the best of your work but saving others from the painstaking task of having to reply to some of these colorful characters.
3- make a thread for about it and purge your thoughts on how you believe each member ought to behave.
I am in a celebratory Eid mood and not a contentious one so I invite you to the third option and let the original course of the topic take place!

:w:
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 10:06 AM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Yes, because it has nothing to do with health, it does not create sinful desire to disgrace God, hurt other human beings or themselves physically, emotionally and spiritually. But if the person is a vegetarian, or has allergy with pork meat, or has a digestion problem with pork, then it is better not to eat it
So the decision you eat/do something is based on your OWN assumption that it does/not disgrace god, and NOT based whether God allows/disallows you do/est something?

Pork is definitely not allowed in the OT.
Jesus definitely never ate pork.
Jesus never abrogated the law of not eating pork

Originally Posted by truth finder
No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and the other innocent spouses emotionally and spiritually
how do you know?
God disallow extra-marital sex, but did he ever mentioned why? Or is that your own assumption?
Again, you made up things and attributed it to God.
extramarital sex is not just adultery between married couples, but pre-marital sex is included.
because most pre-marital sex is between loving couple, so it definitely does not hurt them emotionally and spiritually. And if their whole families approves, they are not hurt either.
Based on your own standards, pre-marital sex must be allowed in christianity.

Again, you decide to do/not do something based on your OWN reasoning, not based on what your GOD allows/disallows.

Originally Posted by truth finder
No No No, because it hurts those involved in the act emotionally and spiritually, and most of all it disgraces God
How do you know that gay sex relations hurt them emotionally and spiritually?
many gays in the western world live in "loving" relationships, many of them get "married" too and approved by their families, and many even got married in CHURCH, officiated by gay pastors/priests/ministers. spiritual, right?

How do you know gay sex relations disgraces god, while eating pork does not disgrace god?
How did you make up your own standards?

Again, christians live their life by their own man-laws not by God-laws, just as warned exactly by Jesus.


Originally Posted by truth finder
It is strongly discouraged because it could provoke the sexual desire of some weird sick men.
so is this why you live your life?
not by God's laws, but by your own (human) reasonings and rationalizations.


It is very true that christians pick and choose what's in their scriptures to suit their whims and desires and "reasonings"
They say all those cumbersome laws were abrogated once jesus died and eat their sins so they don't have to follow those laws which interfere with their preferred lifestyles.
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truth finder
11-12-2010, 06:33 PM
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, which is appreciated greatly. I disagree with your argument that the decision I eat/do something is based on my own assumption. Actually it is based on the greatest biblical principle that supersedes all minor issues! "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

The Bible did not tell me not to watch pornography, but I do not watch it secretly or openly at night or daylight. Why? Because I do not want my love for God to be divided or shared by sinful pleasure of watching obscene images. The Bible did not tell me not to take cocaine, but I do not take it anywhere anytime. Why? Because I do not want my passion for God to be divided or shared by sinful desire of consuming chemicals. These are only a few examples that come to my mind right away. I do not spend much time constantly asking other people or scholars for what is allowed and what is not allowed. Actually this is what my young children do it quite often, "Daddy. Would God be angry with me if I do this? Is that allowed to the eyes of God?" All the points I made in the previous post can be understood based on the greatest biblical principle: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. Love your neighbour as yourself."

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Ramadhan
11-13-2010, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by truth finder
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, which is appreciated greatly. I disagree with your argument that the decision I eat/do something is based on my own assumption. Actually it is based on the greatest biblical principle that supersedes all minor issues! "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:36-40)

I dont know about you christians, but for most people, when you love someone, you certainly want to please them.
For example, if you love your parents with all your heart and your soul, that means you would want to obey their wish and you want to please them, and you would want to avoid everything that they ask us not to do.
Just because you claim that you love them, it does not mean that you are allowed to do as you wish, that you are allowed to do things that displease them or the things that they told you not to do.

Unless, of course, if a christian definition of loving someone is only claiming that you love them but without fulfilling their commands.

I can see from your answers and response that for christians, loving their god is only lip service.
Jesus commanded you to worship One God (the Father), and yet you worship tirnity
Jesus never told you that he is god or to worship him, and yet you worship him as god.
Jesus told you not to eat pork and nerver abrogated the law (he came not to change it but to fulfill it) and yet you christians totally destroyed the law and think it is all irrelevant (all those cumbersome dresscode, the law against usury, the circumcision, theregulations on food, etc)

In fact, almost nothing of Jesus' teachings survived christianity, only the name survived.

any sane person would know that the way to love somebody and the expression of loving somebody is to do what they wish and to avoid what they tell us not to do. Not so with christians apparently. As long as they "sing with joy" that they love jesus and that jesus save them, it is not enough apparently.

I give you another analogy:
say you claim you love your wife, and your wife tells you to love her only. But then you have sex with another woman, but yet you still claim you love your wife.
This is what christians are.
Jesus said again and again and again: Your god is one, the god of moses and abraham, do not worship anything/anyone else, do not associate Him with any partner. And do not be idolater.
And yet Christians elevated jesus and holy spirit as God's partners, and they make statues/idols/etc out of jesus, mary etc.
This is how christians "love their god with heart and soul".


Originally Posted by truth finder
The Bible did not tell me not to watch pornography, but I do not watch it secretly or openly at night or daylight. Why? Because I do not want my love for God to be divided or shared by sinful pleasure of watching obscene images.
You sure your bible does not mention anything related to pornography?
Apparently God in the bible is confused whether to allow pornography or not. There are so many passages in the bible that are very explicit in describing sex between strangers, brother and sister, and even father and his two daughters. You don’t need to watch pornography.
On the other hand, there are verses that are CLEARLY against pornography? Let’s see:
Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
1 Corinthians 6:18-20
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world.
Psalm 119:37
Turn my eyes from looking at worthless things; and give me life in your ways.
Hebrews 13:4
Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Job 31:1
“I have made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I gaze at a virgin?
1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
Clearly, either you have NOT read your own bible or you are a LIAR.
I think we all can guess who you are.

The same goes with ingesting cocaine. I can show you many bible verses that deal with drugs and intoxicants if you want.

Truthfinder, you are just another in the long list of evangelists who lie.

Conclusion: "loving god" means almost nothing to christianity
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