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h-n
11-04-2010, 12:06 AM
There has been mentioned that people are listening to individuals and then being taught to attack non-Muslims. They try and portray an image, if you don't believe in me, then you aren't Muslim enough.

Allah has not taught us to;-

-attack non-Muslims because they are non-Muslims,
-people are being tested in this world, and it is not for us to do anything to anyone, their deeds are written on the Day of Judgement. We respect that Allah is giving time for people to repent.
-neither did the Prophets attack people just because they were were non-Muslims.

We only fight when people fight us. We do NOT start a fight.

We do not stop showing dissaproval of the non-Muslims unreligious way of life, as neither did the Prophets, so why should we? We forbid evil and enjoin good. Why should we stop talking about Islam, whilst they can carry on talking about living in sin? We shall never stop talking about Islam.

This is a follow up from Terrorists, why they are completely wrong, Murder, Collapse of these countries and the Major Signs of the Day of Judgement threads.

Remember Allah and the Day of Judgement much.
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sister herb
11-06-2010, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by h-n
There has been mentioned that people are listening to individuals and then being taught to attack non-Muslims. They try and portray an image, if you don't believe in me, then you aren't Muslim enough.

Allah has not taught us to;-

-attack non-Muslims because they are non-Muslims,

Salam alaykum

Islam doesn´t teach us to attack against non-muslims. Islam is religion of peace, not for attacking against others. It is much better to treat non-muslims kindly (I think also Prother treated them kindly) than attack against them and insult them.

Dear sister, now take again a deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep breath of this and calm down.

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Rafeeq
11-06-2010, 10:54 AM
Killing a man is killing a humanity in Islam. Islam does not teach killing/attacking non muslims unless they are opponent in the bettle field.
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IAmZamzam
11-06-2010, 02:41 PM
h-n, I think you could use one of these.
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Perseveranze
11-06-2010, 06:26 PM
If you are a non-muslim that is not open minded, you just won't ever understand this concept of Islam. It's unbelievable of the amount of non-muslims that are brainwashed, will try and use out-of-context Qur'anic verses to say Islam is a religion of violence, which is quite sad.

But, this is the world we live in and we can't just stop speaking what's right.
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LauraS
11-09-2010, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
If you are a non-muslim that is not open minded, you just won't ever understand this concept of Islam. It's unbelievable of the amount of non-muslims that are brainwashed, will try and use out-of-context Qur'anic verses to say Islam is a religion of violence, which is quite sad.

But, this is the world we live in and we can't just stop speaking what's right.
Or maybe they see the secret videos of hate preachers who advocate killing non-Muslims, i.e. Omar Bakri. These sort of people may not represent what Islam really teaches but they don't do any favours for Muslims.
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Dagless
11-09-2010, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Or maybe they see the secret videos of hate preachers who advocate killing non-Muslims, i.e. Omar Bakri. These sort of people may not represent what Islam really teaches but they don't do any favours for Muslims.
That is the MINORITY which is focussed on by the media to forward their own agenda. You should be smart enough to see how the majority behave and not focus on the negatives. You don't do yourself any favours. Look at the bad apples in your own backyard sometime.
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LauraS
11-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Of course people (not all obviously) realise that it's a minority that do this kind of thing but do you reall think preachers with audiences don't have some effect? I doubt every Muslim dismisses what they say. I have seen comments in the press (and on TV) from representatives of Muslim communities speaking out against violence. You shouldn't be too derisive of non-Muslims that are "brainwashed" though when there are people like Omar Bakri out there, incidents such as Muslims scrawling over a war memorial and flag burnings. When you have someone promoting hate and killings of non-Muslims of course not everybody will dismiss it as "oh whatever, they're just a minority". If it was a Christian preacher saying Muslims should be killed there would soon be an outcry. You have to be more understanding.
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Dagless
11-09-2010, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
If it was a Christian preacher saying Muslims should be killed there would soon be an outcry. You have to be more understanding.
Er they do, but you seem oblivious to it. There are groups ranging from white supremacists to Christian religious extremists who disrespect dead soldiers. Most of the posts I see from you are along the lines of "Muslims don't do themselves any favours" whereas the larger wave of hate and terror on your side of the fence goes unnoticed. Fortunately most people on here don't generalize like you do.
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sister herb
11-09-2010, 09:45 PM
LauraS;

I don´t understand what you try to say by your comments. Here one member just told as common opinion that Islam doesn´t teach killing/attacking against non muslims. If someone try to teach opposite can you claim it is islamic opinion at all?
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LauraS
11-09-2010, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Er they do, but you seem oblivious to it. There are groups ranging from white supremacists to Christian religious extremists who disrespect dead soldiers. Most of the posts I see from you are along the lines of "Muslims don't do themselves any favours" whereas the larger wave of hate and terror on your side of the fence goes unnoticed. Fortunately most people on here don't generalize like you do.
Yes I know there are non-Muslim groups the same, that was exactly my point, the boards are full of threads about attacks against Muslims while actually what Muslims do goes unnoticed.

Well, you haven't read all my posts because in the past I've had quite a big rant about things going on "over this side of the fence".

"Fortunately most people on here don't generalize the way you do." I've already said in another thread just how much generalising goes on here about westerners. Like the fact because I'm from the west I must spend my spare time "glugging" away in a pub with my friends (just one example) when actually I can't stand alcohol.
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Dagless
11-09-2010, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Yes I know there are non-Muslim groups the same, that was exactly my point, the boards are full of threads about attacks against Muslims while actually what Muslims do goes unnoticed.
I've seen many examples of where this is not the case.

Originally Posted by LauraS
"Fortunately most people on here don't generalize the way you do." I've already said in another thread just how much generalising goes on here about westerners. Like the fact because I'm from the west I must spend my spare time "glugging" away in a pub with my friends (just one example) when actually I can't stand alcohol.
Even if this were the case, does this then give you the right to generalize? Btw many Muslims on here are also "Westerners".
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Perseveranze
11-09-2010, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Yes I know there are non-Muslim groups the same, that was exactly my point, the boards are full of threads about attacks against Muslims while actually what Muslims do goes unnoticed.

Well, you haven't read all my posts because in the past I've had quite a big rant about things going on "over this side of the fence".

"Fortunately most people on here don't generalize the way you do." I've already said in another thread just how much generalising goes on here about westerners. Like the fact because I'm from the west I must spend my spare time "glugging" away in a pub with my friends (just one example) when actually I can't stand alcohol.
Your not really understanding are you... You keep saying "what Muslims do goes unnoticed", but Killing innocents isn't really an at of a Muslim.

It's like I can tomorrow be a terrorist and say I'm doing this in the name of Jesus Christ, and everyone should blame or say that it's the Christians that are doing this.

People just use religion as an excuse, as a shield, as a mere title to try and justify their wrong actions. And it's unfortunate to see your brainwashed enough to believe that their actions reflect upon religion of peace.

And as far as the west is concerned, that isn't a minority such as yourself that have this misunderstanding about Islam, it's all over the media which is what people tend to believe in most nowadays.

Honestly reading your comments again, I feel sorry for you. It's as if the moment you think of Islam, the name "Omar Bakri" pops up and you just buy into that and don't even get me started on the fact you tried to say so called "Christians" don't do this kind of stuff. Even though i don't label them as Christians, just people filled with hate and desperate for attention.
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GuestFellow
11-09-2010, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
If you are a non-muslim that is not open minded, you just won't ever understand this concept of Islam. It's unbelievable of the amount of non-muslims that are brainwashed, will try and use out-of-context Qur'anic verses to say Islam is a religion of violence, which is quite sad.

But, this is the world we live in and we can't just stop speaking what's right.
Originally Posted by LauraS
Or maybe they see the secret videos of hate preachers who advocate killing non-Muslims, i.e. Omar Bakri. These sort of people may not represent what Islam really teaches but they don't do any favours for Muslims.
Laura, I am not sure what the purpose of your post is. Brother Perseveranze stated that non-Muslims that are not open-minded, will never understand the teachings of Islam. He claimed that many non-Muslims are brain-washed into believing that Islam is a violent religion due to Quranic verses taken out of context.

You responded by stating that some no-Muslims have watched secret videos of hate preachers who advocate killing non-Muslims. This show that some non-Muslims are truly brainwashed because they accept what see or hear on the mainstream media, instead carrying out research on Islam. In addition, they are no longer secret videos because everyone knows about them. XD

Your right that individuals that preach inaccurate Islamic teachings are not helping Muslims, but the same applies to certain non-Muslims who go around repeating them like parrots suffering from verbal diarrhea. Plus, have you actually watched the entire video, or are there little quotes taken out of these videos? Personally, I never watched any of them.

Originally Posted by LauraS
Of course people (not all obviously) realise that it's a minority that do this kind of thing but do you reall think preachers with audiences don't have some effect? I doubt every Muslim dismisses what they say.
I agree that there might be some Muslims that agree what these preachers say. As I mentioned before, some non-Muslim too listen to these preachers, believe them and repeat them, thus increasing the chances of some Muslims believing them...is this not a possibility?

You shouldn't be too derisive of non-Muslims that are "brainwashed" though when there are people like Omar Bakri out there, incidents such as Muslims scrawling over a war memorial and flag burnings.
There are some Muslims who have burned flats and behaved inappropriately, and I agree, that Muslims should critique our own community too.

When you have someone promoting hate and killings of non-Muslims of course not everybody will dismiss it as "oh whatever, they're just a minority".
Then these people need to be re-educated, learn not to generalise and to treat everyone as individuals.

If it was a Christian preacher saying Muslims should be killed there would soon be an outcry. You have to be more understanding.
Not necessarily. There was a video game based on killing Muslims online. The mainstream media never reported it. Though of course, there are some cases where the mainstream media does defend Muslims.

Originally Posted by LauraS
Yes I know there are non-Muslim groups the same, that was exactly my point, the boards are full of threads about attacks against Muslims while actually what Muslims do goes unnoticed.
Then why don't some non-Muslims members report these attacks? Actually, there have been topics in the world section where Muslims members have posted topics about Muslims carrying out attacks against non-Muslims.
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serena77
11-09-2010, 11:52 PM
salaam and greetings to all
i just read most of the sura the heifer ... sorry i don't remember the arabic spelling but to me that explained in pretty good deal tail why it is wrong to attack non muslims.
also didnt Mohammed refuse to hurt those who were on the battlefield unless he had too? I may have misread something and my apologizes if i did, but i believe i did come across it somewhere. iF Mohammed (PBUH) wouldn't attack those who weren't muslim.... why is it to us to even believe it can or should happen.
Serena
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Zafran
11-10-2010, 01:16 AM
salaam

those videos wernt so secret especailly if the narrow minded have seen them and actually believe it represents the majority of muslims.

By the way there are many crazy christians out there - Terry Jones, John Hagee and the pastor (Parsley I think) that promoted Mccain are preety crazy and whats more scary is that these guys are in with americas mainstream republicans unlike Bin Laden, Omer Bakri and Anjem Chaudery who are preety much nobodies.

peace
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GuestFellow
11-10-2010, 01:21 AM
^ :wa:

Your forgot Sarah Palin...Alaska! She was crazy too.
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Dagless
11-10-2010, 03:31 AM
<sarcasm>

Adolf didn't do white people any favours either.

</sarcasm>
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LauraS
11-11-2010, 11:36 PM
I would never deny that there are white western racist lunatics out there.

I have thought about posting about things that have happened attacking non-Muslims, but I reckon a lot of people would get narked and just think I was attacking Islam/tarring everyone with the same brush like on this thread. It's hard to debate things on the internet sometimes because people can read your tone in a different way it was intended.

And I don't know how many times I have to post I don't judge all Muslims by people like Omar Barkri X| I was just using him as an example of someone who represents Islam badly.

To summarise both Muslims and non-Muslims can be as bad as each other. The End. :p If not we'll go around in circles I suppose.
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Zafran
11-12-2010, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I would never deny that there are white western racist lunatics out there.

I have thought about posting about things that have happened attacking non-Muslims, but I reckon a lot of people would get narked and just think I was attacking Islam/tarring everyone with the same brush like on this thread. It's hard to debate things on the internet sometimes because people can read your tone in a different way it was intended.

And I don't know how many times I have to post I don't judge all Muslims by people like Omar Barkri X| I was just using him as an example of someone who represents Islam badly.

To summarise both Muslims and non-Muslims can be as bad as each other. The End. :p If not we'll go around in circles I suppose.
You like to bring him up a lot - its seems your more intrested with those type of people then the mainstream muslims.
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sister herb
11-12-2010, 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
You like to bring him up a lot - its seems your more intrested with those type of people then the mainstream muslims.
To LauraS;

I don´t even know who is that Omar Barkri you mention all the time. He might be more known for non-muslims than for muslims in general.
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Yanal
11-12-2010, 05:44 AM
:sl:

For Muslims,we musn't attack non-Muslims,but non Muslims shouldn't attack Muslims either.
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glo
11-12-2010, 06:12 AM
^
Seems quite straight forward, when you say it like that, Yanal. :)
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Yanal
11-12-2010, 06:14 AM
Hi Glo,

Yes,it should be like that in my opinion and is the best opinion.
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glo
11-12-2010, 06:16 AM
I agree, Yanal.

If everybody lived by that very simple principle, the world would surely be a more peaceful place.
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Yanal
11-12-2010, 06:20 AM
:sl:

Yes,but as simple as it sounds,it is really difficult for some to act upon it in reality,which is the root of the problem.
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glo
11-12-2010, 07:24 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
salaam

those videos wernt so secret especailly if the narrow minded have seen them and actually believe it represents the majority of muslims.

By the way there are many crazy christians out there - Terry Jones, John Hagee and the pastor (Parsley I think) that promoted Mccain are preety crazy and whats more scary is that these guys are in with americas mainstream republicans unlike Bin Laden, Omer Bakri and Anjem Chaudery who are preety much nobodies.

peace
I agree that there are many crazy people who give our religions a bad name and do very serious damage. Sadly! imsad
All we can do is stand up and speak out against them, to let the world know that they do not speak for the rest of us!
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by ralf123
but its ok to kill idolators and polytheists. surah 9 vers 5 tells so!

Can you tell me what QS. at Tauba says from the beginning, not just cut and choose?
can you tell me WHY and HOW the series of the beginning of QS. at Tauba were revealed?
Who are those idolators and polytheists that were allowed to be killed?

Since you seem to have very strong conviction about that ayat, I expect you to be also very knowledgable about the ayahs.
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Trumble
11-12-2010, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Laura, I am not sure what the purpose of your post is. Brother Perseveranze stated that non-Muslims that are not open-minded, will never understand the teachings of Islam. He claimed that many non-Muslims are brain-washed into believing that Islam is a violent religion due to Quranic verses taken out of context.
I don't think 'brain-washed' is exactly appropriate, unless you wish to apply the same description to those muslims who believe even half the garbage about other religions spread by Harun Yahya and his ilk. Misled, possibly. I would also, frankly, suggest that opinions are formed far more by events shown on TV than out-of-context Qur'anic verses, although I fully except media coverage might well be selective, biased and focus on a tiny minority of muslims.

You responded by stating that some no-Muslims have watched secret videos of hate preachers who advocate killing non-Muslims. This show that some non-Muslims are truly brainwashed because they accept what see or hear on the mainstream media, instead carrying out research on Islam.
Again, where is the 'brain-washing'? These people do exist. If they did not, there would be no such videos. I would also be curious to see how many muslims 'carry out research' on other religions before condemning them and the actions of their believers.. there has been scant evidence of that here recently, particularly in relation to Hinduism.
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't think 'brain-washed' is exactly appropriate, unless you wish to apply the same description to those muslims who believe even half the garbage about other religions spread by Harun Yahya and his ilk.
I don't even know Harun Yahya. :/

Yes, there some Muslims who are ignorant about other religions.

Misled, possibly. I would also, frankly, suggest that opinions are formed far more by events shown on TV than out-of-context Qur'anic verses, although I fully except media coverage might well be selective, biased and focus on a tiny minority of muslims.
Yes, there are biased politicians, academics and authors that are taken Qur'anic verses out of context.

Again, where is the 'brain-washing'? These people do exist. If they did not, there would be no such videos.
Then post the videos then. I would like to hear what these people have to say.

I would also be curious to see how many muslims 'carry out research' on other religions before condemning them and the actions of their believers.. there has been scant evidence of that here recently, particularly in relation to Hinduism.
Then post the topic, showing Muslims on this forum their ignorance towards Hinduism?

Yes, misled is a better term.
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Darth Ultor
11-12-2010, 01:11 PM
I know the majority do not attack non-Muslims, but let me express this. I do hate it that when I speak with Muslims, and mention that I'm Jewish, the subject somehow manages to veer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
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Ramadhan
11-12-2010, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
I know the majority do not attack non-Muslims,
Let's have a look at the fact, shall we: the number of muslims who have been killed in the past decade by non-muslims, whether in Palestina, Iraq or Afghanistan is FAR FAR GREATER than the number of non-muslims killed by muslims.


Originally Posted by Boaz
I do hate it that when I speak with Muslims, and mention that I'm Jewish, the subject somehow manages to veer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
That is unfortunate.
But it is what it is.
Although not all jews support Israel, but most do.

Let's see the comparison:
a few muslims supposedly flew three planes into buildings in the US, and after that the attitude of western govt/people have been venomous towards muslims with most associating muslims as condoning suicide terrors or as terrorists themselves, resulting in two muslim countries attacked and invaded resulting in more than a million killed, men women young old and children.

meanwhile, a state of israel (which is basically a state of the jews) with the full support of western government especially the US (and especially the jewish population and jewish establishments in the US) have been invading muslim lands for years, killing and attacking its populations sistematically, marginalising the rest, driving the muslim populations to few confined areas, restricting aid (even sabotaging and destroying incoming aid), stealing their lands and homes,
and jews expect what from muslims?
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Darth Ultor
11-12-2010, 02:24 PM
Not as much as Muslims killed by Muslims. For the conflict, I'll say this, no side is innocent. If I had children, I would never send them to Israel to serve in the army. Jews and Muslims are the children of Abraham, and we are capable of peaceful coexistence (e.g. Muslim Spain). I have a pretty conservative, if not narrow-minded view of this, but if you get rid of the nutjobs in the Knesset and the Hamas, and replace them with reasonable thinking people, then we might get somewhere.
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
I do hate it that when I speak with Muslims, and mention that I'm Jewish, the subject somehow manages to veer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Yes, I do think some Muslims need to understand that Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together for a thousands of years in peace in general. In addition, they need to understand there is a difference between Judaism and Zionism. I would not like it if anyone came to me and kept going on about September 11th.

I have a pretty conservative, if not narrow-minded view of this, but if you get rid of the nutjobs in the Knesset and the Hamas, and replace them with reasonable thinking people, then we might get somewhere.
What do you mean reasonable thinking people?
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sister herb
11-12-2010, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
I know the majority do not attack non-Muslims, but let me express this. I do hate it that when I speak with Muslims, and mention that I'm Jewish, the subject somehow manages to veer to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
In Palestine situation hasn´t nothing between jews/muslims but about zionists. It depends are you just Jew or are you pure Zionist?
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sister herb
11-12-2010, 05:11 PM
but if you get rid of the nutjobs in the Knesset and the Hamas, and replace them with reasonable thinking people, then we might get somewhere.
Do you think that people in Hamas aren´t thinking people? Only because they represent Islamic Movement they possible don´t think?
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Darth Ultor
11-12-2010, 06:13 PM
Saying Hamas represents Islam is like saying Kahane represents Jews. And I was under the impression that suicide and killing of non-combatants is forbidden in Islam. I'm sure I saw it in the Quran somewhere. So they do not represent Islam, they represent themselves.
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Perseveranze
11-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by ralf123
what exactly is your point here brother. i just recited Allahs word and he said idolators must get killed!! and what does QS mean?


what exactly is your point here brother
:sl: Brother

I believe your misunderstanding the message of Allah(swt). I suggest you read up a bit about the History of the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) so you have a better understanding of how events unfolded under which circumstances. Maybe then you might be able to better understand the context of each verse in regards to this subject.
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Dagless
11-12-2010, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Boaz
Saying Hamas represents Islam is like saying Kahane represents Jews. And I was under the impression that suicide and killing of non-combatants is forbidden in Islam. I'm sure I saw it in the Quran somewhere. So they do not represent Islam, they represent themselves.
Who said Hamas represent Islam? They represent the Palestinian people.
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 07:28 PM
^ It is more of a nationalistic group. I don't think they have any interest in establishing the Sharia.
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LauraS
11-12-2010, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
To LauraS;

I don´t even know who is that Omar Barkri you mention all the time. He might be more known for non-muslims than for muslims in general.
He's an extremist Muslim preacher who was kicked out of the UK. He's quite..mad...and calls for the death of non-muslims.

Zafran- I've brought him up twice.

Trumble- I think that's exaclty what I was trying to say. :)
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LauraS
11-12-2010, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
To LauraS;

I don´t even know who is that Omar Barkri you mention all the time. He might be more known for non-muslims than for muslims in general.
He's an extremist Muslim preacher who was kicked out of the UK. He's quite..mad...and calls for the death of non-muslims.

Zafran- I've brought him up twice.

Trumble- I think that's exaclty what I was trying to say. :)
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Noddy
11-12-2010, 09:22 PM
:sl:

This is a very interesting topic to say the least and credit to those who have contributed to the discussion.

But the question I pose regarding the topic is – why don’t Muslims speak out and condemn these speeches which urge the killing of non-Muslims?

Furthermore there are many non-Muslims who attack our holy book the Quran and we are rightly taking to the streets to condemn the act but why don’t we take the streets to condemn these Preachers?

May Allah (swt) guide us all,

Noddy
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
He's an extremist Muslim preacher who was kicked out of the UK. He's quite..mad...and calls for the death of non-muslims.
Can I see evidence of this please? The full video or the article?
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Noddy
:sl:

This is a very interesting topic to say the least and credit to those who have contributed to the discussion.

But the question I pose regarding the topic is – why don’t Muslims speak out and condemn these speeches which urge the killing of non-Muslims?

Furthermore there are many non-Muslims who attack our holy book the Quran and we are rightly taking to the streets to condemn the act but why don’t we take the streets to condemn these Preachers?

May Allah (swt) guide us all,

Noddy
:sl:

There are Muslims that condemn terrorists attacks:

Al-Asheikh calls for fighting terrorism

Indian Muslims condemn terrorism
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glo
11-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Actually, knowing where to look you come across Muslims publically condemning acts of terrorism quite often.
I guess the mainstream media might not cover such news often enough.

Here is an example I came across only today:
As the Presidents of the Christian Muslim Forum we condemn the attack on the Syriac Catholic Church in Baghdad on 31 October which resulted in the deaths of at least 46 worshippers, including priests. We strongly emphasise that any attack on Christians or any innocent people is not condoned by Islam, the Qur’an or the example of the Prophet Muhammad. In fact, Islamic teaching safeguards the rights and security both of the innocent and of places of worship. The terrorists who committed these murders do not act or speak for Islam and should not be seen as representing Islam in any way. We also condemn the threats of suicide bombing by ‘The Islamic State of Iraq’ (an al-Qaeda affiliate) against the Coptic Orthodox Church in Egypt.

[...]

We therefore:

1. Urge all people of faith and goodwill to see beyond hate, hostility, extremism and terrorism and not judge any religion, especially in this case Islam, by the violent and destructive acts of those who claim allegiance to a religion but deny it through their actions.
2. Draw attention to the resources Christianity and Islam have in their traditions, scriptures and wise, courageous and gentle leadership to bring peace rather than war.
3. Ask all who associate religions with hatred, bloodshed and war to look deeper into their all-pervading messages of peace with God, neighbour and the stranger.
4. Commend all genuine peace-building and inter-religious initiatives as antidotes to extremism, violence and terrorism and pray that the example of friendship and peaceful living together is seen as more ultimately more powerful than acts of hatred.
5. Ask the governments of Muslim countries to make every effort to protect their Christian communities where they are threatened by terrorists and extremists
6. Ask our own Government to recognise the legitimate case for asylum of Christians fleeing oppression, persecution, death threats and terrorism in Middle Eastern and other countries

[...]

Signed by Rt Revd Dr Richard Cheetham (Acting Bishop of Southwark, Co-Chair, Christian Muslim Forum), Imam Dr Musharraf Hussain OBE (Co-Chair), Revd Dr Nicholas Wood, Shaykh Ibrahim Mogra, Bishop Donnett Thomas, Bishop Paul Hendricks, Shaykh Abbas Ismail
Source
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LauraS
11-12-2010, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Can I see evidence of this please? The full video or the article?
The videos were on the news, they were him preaching to quite big groups of people. There are a lot of articles about him out there. Here's one where British Muslims speak up in support of seeing him deported: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4144792.stm

glo- there's a Christian Muslim forum? That's really nice to see!
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GuestFellow
11-12-2010, 10:52 PM
^ Thanks, I will have a look.
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glo
11-12-2010, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
glo- there's a Christian Muslim forum? That's really nice to see!
Yep, go and check it out! :)

Here is how it started:
The Christian Muslim Forum is built on friendship between a group of Christians and Muslims, showing how faith is a catalyst for good relationships and welcomes the 'other'. This friendship began with a small group of Muslims and Christians working on the Archbishop of Canterbury's Initiative in Christian-Muslim Relations. This grew from Archbishop Carey's comments in 1997, "For the sake of the health of this country, we need to find ways in which members of our two communities can meet regularly together in a more structured way than has been possible up to now." His remarks were received warmly and positively by leaders of the Muslim community ...
Source
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sister herb
11-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
He's an extremist Muslim preacher who was kicked out of the UK. He's quite..mad...and calls for the death of non-muslims.
Dear LauraS;

to muslims kind of people are not muslims at all. Islam is religion of peace, not kill or harm others. Here isn´t any extremist muslim priest at all. So I have no idea who you are talking.
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LauraS
11-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Dear LauraS;

to muslims kind of people are not muslims at all. Islam is religion of peace, not kill or harm others. Here isn´t any extremist muslim priest at all. So I have no idea who you are talking.
References are made to extremist Christians yet they aren't following what Jesus preached and so aren't true Christians.

He still exists and he still considers himself a Muslim and so do the the few Muslims that actually support him. He preaches in the name of Islam whether he truly represents Islam or not.

oops hadn't finished- glo thanks, I think I will. These sort of things need to be more more widely publicised I think.
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sister herb
11-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Dear LauraS;

both true muslims and true christians aren´t interesting about extremists.

Are you more interest about extremists than true religion?
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tango92
11-13-2010, 06:05 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
The videos were on the news, they were him preaching to quite big groups of people. There are a lot of articles about him out there. Here's one where British Muslims speak up in support of seeing him deported: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4144792.stm

glo- there's a Christian Muslim forum? That's really nice to see!
i wonder is they blurred the videos to give a "terrorist" look. and muted the audio so they could misquote him in dodgy news articles?
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tango92
11-13-2010, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by ralf123
salam

you have to know that in sharia there is a term called harbie which means that there are people like idolators, polytheists and unbelievers that can get killed at any time.
thats Allahs will!!
troll got identified, bring in the troll extermination team. aka the reds, blues and blacks
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sister herb
11-13-2010, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by ralf123
it seems like im that only real muslim on this site is this possible?
Salam alaykum;

only Allah can decide who is real muslim and who is not.
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LauraS
11-13-2010, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
i wonder is they blurred the videos to give a "terrorist" look. and muted the audio so they could misquote him in dodgy news articles?
Nope, it was a clear video, no blurring. What's the problem? Muslims on this board admit there are extremists out there so why dismiss the evidence? What's dodgy about that article?

sister harb- I'm not the only one one this board talking about extremists.
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sister herb
11-13-2010, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
sister harb- I'm not the only one one this board talking about extremists.
Really? And who other is here just finding extremism from Islam? Most of people it is just enough to know that Islam is religion of peace.

Seems that to some it is not enough. Pity for them.
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Grace Seeker
11-14-2010, 01:06 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Really? And who other is here just finding extremism from Islam? Most of people it is just enough to know that Islam is religion of peace.

Seems that to some it is not enough. Pity for them.

No, it isn't enough. I pull in a comment from another thread that seems to apply here as well:
Originally Posted by Woodrow
The past few posts bring to mind:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"
attributed to Edmund Burke-- circa:1790

Now the way I interpret that, we who are against hate being acted out in the name of a faith that we confess have an obligation to our own set of beliefs (be they Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, or Wiccan) to stand up and denounce anyone who would besmirk our faith by behaving in a way that is contrary to it. Certainly we all preach against sins such as murder, stealing, and adultery; shouldn't we also preach against violence and terrorism? Now this isn't going to be solved by me telling a Muslim that there are problems within Islam if I ignore the problems in that people create in the name of Christianity. But the reverse is true as well.

We each have some work to do within our own faith communities. So, I'll try to put a stop to folks like Fred Phelps and Terry Jones, and even more those like them who names that you don't hear about in the news but live in my own community. Now, who else is willing to join me in doing the same with their neighbors?
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IAmZamzam
11-14-2010, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Certainly we all preach against sins such as murder, stealing, and adultery; shouldn't we also preach against violence and terrorism? Now this isn't going to be solved by me telling a Muslim that there are problems within Islam if I ignore the problems in that people create in the name of Christianity. But the reverse is true as well. We each have some work to do within our own faith communities. So, I'll try to put a stop to folks like Fred Phelps and Terry Jones, and even more those like them who names that you don't hear about in the news but live in my own community. Now, who else is willing to join me in doing the same with their neighbors?
Just exactly exactly do you expect us to do about it? And for that matter, what are you capable of doing about Fred Phelps?
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Grace Seeker
11-14-2010, 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Just exactly exactly do you expect us to do about it? And for that matter, what are you capable of doing about Fred Phelps?
I take it you didn't see this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...stors.cnn.html


But the big thing to do is to speak up when someone, anyone uses hate speech or condones the use of violence in our presence. If we could win all these little one-on-one battles in our own communities, each of us with our own neighbors, there wouldn't be anyone for the likes of Phelps, Jones, or any other madman to recruit.
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IAmZamzam
11-14-2010, 02:34 AM
And equally in theory, if everyone made a better effort not to litter, we would have a much cleaner world. But that doesn't change the fact our own personal decisions and words on the matter are not enough to change the fact of the thing. Everyone should stand up for what's right, but everyone should also recognize that at no point, at least before judgment day, are the great people in the wrong going to be a problem we realistically have any way of solving, at least as powerless everyday individuals with our own problems to work out. You have an issue with these people, be an activist. And see what good it does you.
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Grace Seeker
11-14-2010, 02:58 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
And equally in theory, if everyone made a better effort not to litter, we would have a much cleaner world.
Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?
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glo
11-14-2010, 06:49 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I take it you didn't see this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...stors.cnn.html


But the big thing to do is to speak up when someone, anyone uses hate speech or condones the use of violence in our presence. If we could win all these little one-on-one battles in our own communities, each of us with our own neighbors, there wouldn't be anyone for the likes of Phelps, Jones, or any other madman to recruit.
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?
I agree, Grace Seeker.

Sometimes the tasks might seem too great, the adversity too powerful and our own strength too feeble - but we should never give up striving to make a difference in the world.
However little and insignificant it may seem to us, if enough people join the cause the effect will be enormous!

A wise man once said: "Be the change you want to see in the world."
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tango92
11-14-2010, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Nope, it was a clear video, no blurring. What's the problem? Muslims on this board admit there are extremists out there so why dismiss the evidence? What's dodgy about that article?

sister harb- I'm not the only one one this board talking about extremists.
what you call extreme others may not do. evidence is only evidence if youve seen it yourself. otherwise your just buying into somebody pushing their own agenda. so many times you see criminals potos shown on the news and they look horrendous. im not condoning them, but it shows you the news groups are out to give people what they want to see.

that article is dodgy, because i was expecting to see a video. if you can find the video it would be helpful.
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IAmZamzam
11-14-2010, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Indeed, Canada is cleaner than the USA for exactly this reason. I don't believe we are powerless. We have the power to effect our world, each one of us. Maybe not the whole, but that part in which we live. Either we are part of the solution or part of the problem. Which part have you decided to be?
Since 99.9999% of us have the choice of either being such a miniscule part of the problem as not to really affect it at all or such a miniscule part of the solution so as not to really affect it at all, I hardly see how it even matters which I am. God will end the world, one way or another, exactly when He must.
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LauraS
11-14-2010, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
what you call extreme others may not do. evidence is only evidence if youve seen it yourself. otherwise your just buying into somebody pushing their own agenda. so many times you see criminals potos shown on the news and they look horrendous. im not condoning them, but it shows you the news groups are out to give people what they want to see.

that article is dodgy, because i was expecting to see a video. if you can find the video it would be helpful.
Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.
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GuestFellow
11-14-2010, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.
It is not conclusive is it? There is too much speculation.

I agree there are Muslims that wish to harm others. For example, I remember a student, reverted to Islam, was planning to attack mall but failed. It occurred last year and was discussed on this forum. I will see if I can find it.
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Grace Seeker
11-15-2010, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Since 99.9999% of us have the choice of either being such a miniscule part of the problem as not to really affect it at all or such a miniscule part of the solution so as not to really affect it at all, I hardly see how it even matters which I am. God will end the world, one way or another, exactly when He must.

OK. You win. You've convinced me. There is precious little I can do to make the world a better place. So, next time I see/hear someone start using racial epiteths, resort to ethnic stereotypes or say that all Muslims are terrorists, I won't challenge them. There is precious little I could do, and even if I did change one mind, what difference would that really make in the world. On your recommendation, I'll just ignore them and continue on my way. God's going to figure it all out in the end anyway, no point in me getting involved along the way.

-------------------

Edit: You think I still got time to put through a stop payment on that check I wrote to Muslim Aid?
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tango92
11-15-2010, 06:02 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Just because you were expecting a video doesn't make the article dodgy, it even contains a quote from British Muslims. I wouldn't be able to find the video, it was on the news a year or two ago. In fact I've seen a couple. In one he was preaching in the street.
the problem is "a quote". often i see news pick up lines and sentences and then present them in such a way as to make a mockery of the person or to change their meanings entirely. if you havent got the vid we have nothing left 2 discuss.
but one thing, do you believe news groups are completely unbiased?
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GuestFellow
11-16-2010, 04:33 PM
^ It is pretty sick for individuals to celebrate 9/11. I wonder how these individuals would feel if their families had been killed in that attack.
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IAmZamzam
11-16-2010, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
OK. You win. You've convinced me. There is precious little I can do to make the world a better place. So, next time I see/hear someone start using racial epiteths, resort to ethnic stereotypes or say that all Muslims are terrorists, I won't challenge them. There is precious little I could do, and even if I did change one mind, what difference would that really make in the world. On your recommendation, I'll just ignore them and continue on my way. God's going to figure it all out in the end anyway, no point in me getting involved along the way.

-------------------

Edit: You think I still got time to put through a stop payment on that check I wrote to Muslim Aid?
Just because it's supremely unlikely that you can do anything that affects history or even current events doesn't mean that you can't affect your own self for the better, or possibly a few people here and there. My problem is certainly not with ethics but with that "any one person can make a difference" B.S. It's ignorance at best and a severe case of being in denial at worst.
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IAmZamzam
11-16-2010, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by vale'slily
You seem to seek a certain type of news, and you've come to the right place to get a better picture!
Probably, but it really isn't necessary for those of us living in America to seek anything at all since the news media has for at least a decade or so made quite a deliberate point of focusing their hatemongering almost exclusively on Muslims. Every generation needs a bogeyman in the media or else the news theoretically won't sell as well or something, and it's easy enough to make said bogeyman out of any party needed much more by selectively deciding what to report than by reporting it with biased insinuations or fabrications, although those happen as well. In my parents' generation it was Communists; today it's Muslims; in Victorian times it was pornographers. I wonder what poor people will be the next victims.
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Grace Seeker
11-16-2010, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Just because it's supremely unlikely that you can do anything that affects history or even current events doesn't mean that you can't affect your own self for the better, or possibly a few people here and there. My problem is certainly not with ethics but with that "any one person can make a difference" B.S. It's ignorance at best and a severe case of being in denial at worst.

I still think it comes down to the Edmund Burk quote. We make a mistake when we think that making a difference is something that can only be done by "others". I really do believe that any one person can make a difference.

Making a Difference

An old man was strolling along a beach one day. In the distance he saw a young boy and girl reach down, pick something up and throw it back into the sea.

Drawing nearer, he saw that the sand was littered with thousands of small stranded sand dollars. The children were patiently picking them up, one at a time, and returning them to safety below the water.

"What are you doing?" he asked.

"Saving sand dollars," replied the children as they continued about the job at hand.

The old man, somewhat jaded by age, thought the children's actions were futile.

"But the beach is littered with dying sand dollars. What possible difference can you make by doing this?"

The young girl bent over, picked up another, and threw it with all her might. With a plop the sand dollar sank safely below the water. Then, turning to the old man, she said with all the wisdom of a child:

"I made a difference for that one."

Making a difference doesn't have to mean changing the entire world, it can also mean changing one person's world. We don't accomplish that by throwing up our hands in surrender.
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IAmZamzam
11-16-2010, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I still think it comes down to the Edmund Burk quote. We make a mistake when we think that making a difference is something that can only be done by "others". I really do believe that any one person can make a difference.
If the person is extremely lucky. Their own efforts only count for so much. It's really up to God, not us, and He gives the power of massive, widespread change of any sort only to the remotest few "others". To accept this is not to be pessimistic or lazy any more than it is pessimistic or lazy to accept how low our chances of winning the lottery are. It's just common sense issues of odds.

Making a difference doesn't have to mean changing the entire world, it can also mean changing one person's world.
Which is pretty much what I've just told you. If I didn't think there was any chance or point at all in helping individual people then I wouldn't be a da'i, would I? Although experience has taught that I get through to people much, much, much less often than not, it still happens occasionally, and that's reason enough for me.
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Woodrow
11-17-2010, 04:00 PM
Please Everybody stay on topic. This is not a thread about how some non-Muslims treat us. It is about how we are to treat non-Muslims.
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LauraS
11-17-2010, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
the problem is "a quote". often i see news pick up lines and sentences and then present them in such a way as to make a mockery of the person or to change their meanings entirely. if you havent got the vid we have nothing left 2 discuss.
but one thing, do you believe news groups are completely unbiased?
Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.
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tango92
11-17-2010, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.
to summarise my points were:

how do we define extreme?
i dont trust the media as much as some people do

and my last point:
i dont really care what the muslims in the pockets of politicians have to say either.

finally, before i accuse my brother of an extremely terrible crime i would want to examine evidence from multiple sources. as you could not find the video i propose we end this discussion.

and i cant be bothered to do it myself, nor can i be bothered even googling his name. which begs the question why did i even join this thread?
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LauraS
11-18-2010, 06:25 PM
Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

So now Muslim opinions must be dismissed if they don't suit your own?

If you can't be bothered to find evidence then you can't be so defensive over the idea this Omar Bakri might be violent.

But yeah, I'm getting bored too.
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tango92
11-18-2010, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

so this is a good discussion point. perhaps you could start a new thread, or will i have to do the honours?

So now Muslim opinions must be dismissed if they don't suit your own?

i had initially simply stated skpeticism over the authenticity/honesty/integrity of bbc and the rest regarding who they label "extremist". im not saying this guy is a great muslim. but it would be hypocritical of me to blindly follow the majority when we are always telling the non muslims to not believe everything they see in the media.

If you can't be bothered to find evidence then you can't be so defensive over the idea this Omar Bakri might be violent.

i can do, in Islam we are told to verify what we hear. but since i dont really care at this moment in time i refuse to label him one way or another.

But yeah, I'm getting bored too.

watch some news? lol
need teh more characters
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Ramadhan
11-19-2010, 02:02 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.

How about advocating and condoning killings in the name of democracy? or in the name of anti-terrorism? or in the name of peace? or in the name of security threat?
Can we define that as extreme as well?
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GuestFellow
11-19-2010, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Of course they aren't, but then that works the other way too. If the Muslim community itself has spoken out against Omar Bakri then, again, I still don't see why you don't want to believe him to be an extremist.
What evidence is there that he is an ''extremist?''

Profile: Omar Bakri Mohammad

There is a video of them. Check at the top right side of the article, it will say Watch Omar Bakri Mohammad's interview. It is not much of an interview. He said that Muslims in England lived in peace but the war against terror pushed Muslims in the wrong direction and does not believe that Osama is behind the 9/11 attacks.

^ What is so bad about this?

In fact, I doubt Osama is behind 9/11 attacks as well. He has not been charged behind these attacks, according to the FBI website. He is considered to be a suspect for ''other terrorist attacks around the world.''

FBI

Originally Posted by LauraS
Extreme would be advocating and condoning killing in the name of your religion in my opinion.
So the term extremist applies only to Muslims? Why use the term extremist? Are there not any other terms to describe such people? Why repeat phrases you hear on the news like parrots? It is a propaganda term in my opinion, it does not reveal why people commit a crime to begin with.
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Perseveranze
11-19-2010, 08:08 PM
You shoud know that if anyone hurt or killed an innocent on purpose "in the name of Allah", is pretty clearly identified in the Koran as a hypocrite.

“Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah save a little. ”

(The Women 4.142)


"The Hypocrites enjoin what is forbidden, and forbid what Islam commands. They withhold their hands (from spending in Allah's Cause [Jihad]). They have forgotten Allah so He has forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are oblivious, rebellious and perverse." (Quran 9:16)
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Beardo
11-19-2010, 08:30 PM
I find it very irritating how people hate on non-Muslims and start using "kaafir" as a cuss word. That's why they repel from us and our religion. Be kind, accept them for who they are, and treat them with kindness. And pray that they be guided to The Truth. It's as simple as that. If they insist on their own opinion, don't start a useless debate knowing well that they will only be persistent. Give your opinion, give them time, and let them ponder over it. Done deal.
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Watcher888
11-23-2010, 02:06 PM
Five Muslim boys and white girl, all 12, excluded over Facebook death threats to classmate who supported British troops
By Claire Elicott
Last updated at 9:01 AM on 18th November 2010


A 13-year-old boy who penned an online Remembrance Day tribute to Britain’s fallen soldiers was subjected to a vicious hate campaign by fellow pupils.
A gang of 12-year-old pupils made up of five Muslim boys and one non-Muslim girl made death threats to Darius Gill involving knives and knuckle-dusters because of his support for British troops.
One member of the gang also posted a picture of himself holding a rifle and threatened to hijack a plane.

Darius Gill and his mother Clare Allington: She pulled her son out of school after he received death threats on Facebook
The campaign was backed by more pupils belonging to a self-styled ‘Muslim Defence League’ celebrating British deaths in Afghanistan.
The abuse was so serious that police are now investigating.
On November 11, Darius – whose father is Asian – wrote on Facebook: ‘RIP to all the lads who never made it home.’
He also posted two pictures showing British troops on Armistice Day.
He was then branded ‘racist’ and two of the accused pupils began a flurry of online messages to each other setting out what they were going to do to him.

Threats: The Facebook page of one of the bullies
One wrote to Darius on Facebook criticising him for failing to acknowledge the dead *Muslim soldiers in the Middle East.
Darius explained that Remembrance Day honoured British troops and pointed out that he was paying tribute to his great-great uncle, who died aged only 17 on the first day of the Battle of the Somme in 1916.
The students attend the 1,250-pupil Sidney Stringer Academy in Coventry. Muslim pupils make up 65 per cent of the school, which caters for children aged 11-18.
The main six pupils, none of whom can be named for legal reasons, have now been suspended and may be expelled over their chilling threats.
One of the online messages – which were littered with spelling mistakes – read: ‘Fight on Monday gonna be heavy knuckle dusters and knifes hopefully I don’t die.’
Another pupil added: ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist.’

The children were excluded from the Sidney Stringer Academy in Coventry following the Facebook bullying campaign
One pupil’s Facebook profile is full of chilling references to Islamic fundamentalism and shows a *picture of him posing with an AK47 rifle.
He also penned a terrifying poem about hijacking a plane.
On November 12, he wrote: ‘You better watch what the **** flies outta ya mouth. Or I’ma hijack a plane and fly it into your house.
‘Burn your apartment with your family tied to the couch. And slit your throat, so when you scream, only blood comes out.’
More.
Other pupils from the Muslim Defence League added comments condemning Darius.
Fortunately, Darius’s mother Clare Allington read the comments on her son’s Facebook page on Monday morning – the day of the promised attack – and immediately pulled her son out of school.
Yesterday, Mrs Allington, 42, a mature student from Coventry, said: ‘I logged on and it broke my heart. I was reading all sorts about knuckle-dusters, knives and death.
‘They were planning to attack him at school that day so I rang the school straight away.’

Patriotic: But Darius Gill now says he feels scared to wear a poppy in future because of the vicious abuse
She added that she usually keeps an eye on her son’s posts on Facebook every day but had not done so last weekend. She only read them on Monday.
She added: ‘If I hadn’t read the threats and pulled my son out of school he could be dead.
‘They might just be schoolchildren but they are fanatical and dangerous. The threats have to be taken seriously.’
Even yesterday, one of the yobs bragged about being quizzed by police and continued his online threats to attack Darius. He wrote: ‘Im in trouble wiv de police cuz of susspician of threat to Darius ... Im banggin Darius Thursday.’
He goes on to say he wants a one-on-one fight and demands that no one defends Darius.
Yesterday Darius said he was now too frightened to wear a poppy and claims he has been picked on at school because he is not Muslim.
Mrs Allington added: ‘My son wrote supporting the British troops in Afghanistan and also said he was sad so many soldiers had died.
‘The so-called Muslim Defence League, which has been set up in the school by a number of pupils, believe that Darius should join them in hating British soldiers. It’s appalling and extremely upsetting for Darius.’
Sidney Stringer Academy’s principal, Wendy Thomas, said Facebook was an increasing concern for schools. She said the children have been told to remove the comments from the site.
She said: ‘Darius is the victim of bullying. All the students involved have told me they did not mean what they said but they will learn a hard lesson from this.
‘Facebook is a big concern for schools and we urge all parents to monitor what their children say on the site. As soon as the school was notified about the comments on Monday we interviewed the pupils.
‘No weapons were found on any of the pupils. We notified the police and they are investigating.’
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Woodrow
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction

Originally Posted by Watcher888
Five Muslim boys and white girl, all 12, ’
Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?
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IAmZamzam
11-23-2010, 03:12 PM
Just goes to show how wretched the news media is, doesn't it?
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Grace Seeker
11-23-2010, 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction
Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.
I grant you this first point (though I think you objection may more be with the copy editor who wrote the headline than with Watcher888), but on the second...

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?
Of course not. Or at least this reader does not. But it is a concern I have as well. I have it in my own neighborhood in which I know of no Muslims, but see other behavior that I would consider outrageous being practiced by 12-year olds. Their behavior is learned behavior and the most obvious source of it is the adult community around them. So, just as I see outrageous behavior practiced by children in my community to be an indictment our myself and my neighbors, I must tell you that the same goes when a 12-year old says things like, " ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist." I find myself asking, "Where did he learn such things?" And the answer, for one who likes to believe that Islam is a religion of peace, is rather distressing and raises grave concerns for the future if it isn't nipped in the bud today. But the really scary part is how rather than deal with the main thrust of the article and the issues it raises, I continue to see the Muslim community neglect those issues and try to draw attention to something else.

If nothing else, it shows us that Muslims and non-Muslims do not share a common concern as to what the major issues are that need to be addressed with regard to the nature of relationships between the Muslim and non-Muslim community.
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tango92
11-23-2010, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I grant you this first point (though I think you objection may more be with the copy editor who wrote the headline than with Watcher888), but on the second...

Of course not. Or at least this reader does not. But it is a concern I have as well. I have it in my own neighborhood in which I know of no Muslims, but see other behavior that I would consider outrageous being practiced by 12-year olds. Their behavior is learned behavior and the most obvious source of it is the adult community around them. So, just as I see outrageous behavior practiced by children in my community to be an indictment our myself and my neighbors, I must tell you that the same goes when a 12-year old says things like, " ‘ill bang [attack] him ma slef [myself] am a terrorist." I find myself asking, "Where did he learn such things?" And the answer, for one who likes to believe that Islam is a religion of peace, is rather distressing and raises grave concerns for the future if it isn't nipped in the bud today. But the really scary part is how rather than deal with the main thrust of the article and the issues it raises, I continue to see the Muslim community neglect those issues and try to draw attention to something else.

If nothing else, it shows us that Muslims and non-Muslims do not share a common concern as to what the major issues are that need to be addressed with regard to the nature of relationships between the Muslim and non-Muslim community.
you must be gaining in age if you forget what its like to be 12. i remember me and my freinds always saying stuff like this just out of ego, and trying to look tough and rebellion. and empowering ourselves by using the word whilst it is considered taboo

but whilst this seems a rather trivial point, i wonder why you are so quick to jump the gun "wondering" what our parents teach us etc. it raises questions about ur sincerity
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Grace Seeker
11-23-2010, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
you must be gaining in age if you forget what its like to be 12. i remember me and my freinds always saying stuff like this just out of ego, and trying to look tough and rebellion. and empowering ourselves by using the word whilst it is considered taboo
I too remember that sort of vibratto being part of what it means to be 12. I remember that some choose to be cowboys and Indians, others cops or robbers, still others gangsters, gang members, and one or two astronauts. What did this child choose? This particular child choose to be a terrorist as his way of expressing his idealized view of himself.

but whilst this seems a rather trivial point, i wonder why you are so quick to jump the gun "wondering" what our parents teach us etc. it raises questions about ur sincerity
You'll have to articulate that question then, because I'm oblivious to what you might be referencing. You were most correct when you said that this sort of child's play and child's words are expressions of their ego. The ego that Freud spoke of unfettered by the superego of adult inhibitions and restraints. But that is exactly why I find the expression to be scary, just like I find the racist language of children to be scary as well. They speak to us of not just the child's ego, but what lays behind the masks of adult restraints that govern the lives of those who are mentoring them in their young lives.

Now a child of 12 is just beginning the search for identity. He/she is going to try on many hats before he settles on one that he adopts for himself. And he is going to get his ideas from many different sources. So, I understand that to say these words today does not mean that his parents are raising him to be a terrorist. That's not what I was saying. But the idea of being a terrorist was introduced into his life by some means and it was a means that allowed him to identify with the concept. I submit to you that this is not the norm, but it has occurred in this child's panoply of possible identities that he can relate to, and that any child should consider the role viable enough to articulate is, IMO, a significant problem. But significant as it is, I say again it is still NOT the biggest concern. The bigger concern would be if it were to be ignored or dismissed as not needing to be addressed. For to do that gives tacit approval. And when that is one of the main issues presented by this child's behavior and we seek to deflect attention from it to other things then I also submit we are ourselves complicit in that process.

My parents had a solution for such behaviors that they didn't want to see repeated or even condoned in my life. They didn't try to defend it, justify it or even excuse it. If I said something as off the wall as this, they took a bar of soap and washed my mouth out. I quickly found my acceptable ways of expressing myself and searched for identities that would leave a better taste in my mouth afterward as well. That may also have been exactly what this young man's parents did as well. Let us hope so.
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IAmZamzam
11-23-2010, 08:20 PM
What is your point, Grace Seeker? And what does it have to do with anything?
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tango92
11-23-2010, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I too remember that sort of vibratto being part of what it means to be 12. I remember that some choose to be cowboys and Indians, others cops or robbers, still others gangsters, gang members, and one or two astronauts. What did this child choose? This particular child choose to be a terrorist as his way of expressing his idealized view of himself.

You'll have to articulate that question then, because I'm oblivious to what you might be referencing. You were most correct when you said that this sort of child's play and child's words are expressions of their ego. The ego that Freud spoke of unfettered by the superego of adult inhibitions and restraints. But that is exactly why I find the expression to be scary, just like I find the racist language of children to be scary as well. They speak to us of not just the child's ego, but what lays behind the masks of adult restraints that govern the lives of those who are mentoring them in their young lives.

Now a child of 12 is just beginning the search for identity. He/she is going to try on many hats before he settles on one that he adopts for himself. And he is going to get his ideas from many different sources. So, I understand that to say these words today does not mean that his parents are raising him to be a terrorist. That's not what I was saying. But the idea of being a terrorist was introduced into his life by some means and it was a means that allowed him to identify with the concept. I submit to you that this is not the norm, but it has occurred in this child's panoply of possible identities that he can relate to, and that any child should consider the role viable enough to articulate is, IMO, a significant problem. But significant as it is, I say again it is still NOT the biggest concern. The bigger concern would be if it were to be ignored or dismissed as not needing to be addressed. For to do that gives tacit approval. And when that is one of the main issues presented by this child's behavior and we seek to deflect attention from it to other things then I also submit we are ourselves complicit in that process.

My parents had a solution for such behaviors that they didn't want to see repeated or even condoned in my life. They didn't try to defend it, justify it or even excuse it. If I said something as off the wall as this, they took a bar of soap and washed my mouth out. I quickly found my acceptable ways of expressing myself and searched for identities that would leave a better taste in my mouth afterward as well. That may also have been exactly what this young man's parents did as well. Let us hope so.
fair enough, i can see how it may influence teh childs later life. although i expect it isnt the case for the majority.

strange thing is, go back 10 yrs or so and the muslim community do not even recognize the word "terrorist". many yrs have my parents lived in this country peacefully and i can assure you never once did my parents (or any of my freinds parents as far as im aware) condone actions of the "terrorists" (lets presume they exist as the media portray them, it is beyond the scope of our current discussion). it is something alien to islam...

so where did the children pick up "im a terrorist gangsta yo!"? the media of course. I propose that had islam not been generally stereotyped as a terrorist religion we would never have seen such a phenomenon.
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Grace Seeker
11-23-2010, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by tango92
so where did the children pick up "im a terrorist gangsta yo!"? the media of course. I propose that had islam not been generally stereotyped as a terrorist religion we would never have seen such a phenomenon.
Oh, I agree with that. I understand that the problem is two-fold. It doesn't help when the world in which you live casts you this way. For an impressionable youngester, it's almost as if you're being told this is who you are. And when you hear this over and over again, well, it's going to have an effect. I didn't learn to play cowboys and Indians or cops and robbers from my parents, but from the movies they let me watch. And you can't blame a parent for watching the news. I'm not about trying to point fingers in blame, if I was those that created the stereotype would have the greater responsibility. I am suggesting that given the messed up world we live in, it is going to take more than denying the problem to resolve the problem.
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Pygoscelis
11-23-2010, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Rashad
I find it very irritating how people hate on non-Muslims and start using "kaafir" as a cuss word. That's why they repel from us and our religion. Be kind, accept them for who they are, and treat them with kindness. And pray that they be guided to The Truth. It's as simple as that. If they insist on their own opinion, don't start a useless debate knowing well that they will only be persistent. Give your opinion, give them time, and let them ponder over it. Done deal.
What a refreshing live and let live attitude. Thank you for posting that. If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.
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GuestFellow
11-23-2010, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What a refreshing live and let live attitude. Thank you for posting that. If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.
I highly doubt that.
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IAmZamzam
11-23-2010, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If this was the image of Islam I received overall I would not be so anti-muslim as you correctly predict here.
Being anti-Muslim is just one particular way of being a bigot. Anti-Islam would be iffy territory anyway, since to go from simply not believing in something to actively being opposed to it is a trait so commonly found in those with irrational hatred. But being anti-Muslim means setting yourself against an entire group of over a billion people, only the tiniest fraction of whom you could possibly have ever even heard of individually, let alone learned enough about to judge. Don't pretend it was just a poor choice of words. Just don't.
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Ramadhan
11-23-2010, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
I highly doubt that

I second this.

Just have a look at pygoscelis' profile, he's been here since october 2006.
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Watcher888
11-24-2010, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I find it very strange and close to being racist that you begin your post with this introduction



Does that automatically mean the girl is not Muslims and all Muslims are non-White. Us Muslims are color blinds and come in every color possible, never noticing the skin pigment of our Brothers and Sisters.

Do you also assume that five 12 year old boys represent all Muslims and are qualified to show the beliefs of Islam?
Firstly I thought it relevant to the thread topic.
And your accusation of being "close to racist" is strange!

The article from the Daily Mail in the UK, says that the white girl is a non muslim, that's all!
And I note that the boy victim of this 'HATE' has an Asian father!

And as islam is a 'religion' for all nations, and muslims are all colours and races.
How can any question, enquiry, debate, or even a verbal or physical attack, be called 'racist'?

And I don't think that these 5 boys represent all muslims or islam at all!
I just found it highly disturbing from the human point of view.
And wonder where the parental guidance is from their parents and the ummah in general?


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quranalim
11-24-2010, 12:40 PM
I think depending on what madhab you are. you should follow the scholar (not interpret hadith or quran yourself)

if your hanafi you should beleive Imam Hanifa's theory of Darl al harb.

All 4 imams believed that muslims should fight non muslims in an offensive war. because they are non muslim (this is called jihad al talab).

But they disagreed on whether they should be attacked or given dawah first. all 4 schoalars believed (from what i have seen) have the view that they should be asked to pay jizyah first


(also, this offensive war can not be carried out without a muslim ruler)

""They would not invade you, but you invade them."" [Quote of the prophet]

Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography (Damascus: Dar al-Fikr, 2001), pp. 242

http://downloads.islambase.info/booksEN/RulingJihad.pdf
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LauraS
11-24-2010, 12:42 PM
The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame. You can say it's the bravado of youngsters (I personally never made death threats against people at that age), but they actually established themselves as a Muslim defence group and what happens when they get older? Do their views take a more radical turn? It's just as serious as if a thread appeared saying young Muslims had been getting death threats.

They may not represent the majority of Muslims, but their actions can still have impact.
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GuestFellow
11-24-2010, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame.
Last time I checked, Woodrow did not twist the article to blame others. He has an issue with how the article is presented. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Ironically, it appears to me you twisted Woodrow's comment...

Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?
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sister herb
11-24-2010, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?
I have though same many times. I think in this thread too muslims have already told several times what is opinion of them (and Islam in general) about bad things what some individuals may have done. Also in general it sometimes seems that we as muslims should spend all of our time to condemn any wrong actions what muslims may have done in anywhere in this world (or what some non-muslims claim they have done).

But if some muslims ask every non-muslims (like christians or jews) condemn acts what some christians or jews have made, answer will always be: "it is not religion what made them behave so". What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".
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Zafran
11-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame. You can say it's the bravado of youngsters (I personally never made death threats against people at that age), but they actually established themselves as a Muslim defence group and what happens when they get older? Do their views take a more radical turn? It's just as serious as if a thread appeared saying young Muslims had been getting death threats.

They may not represent the majority of Muslims, but their actions can still have impact.
and??? theres a non muslim there as well what do you want all non muslims to do about that???

By the way its from the daily mail - can you get any more racist newspaper then that? anybody who lives in the UK knows what the daily mail is about.
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Grace Seeker
11-24-2010, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
But if some muslims ask every non-muslims (like christians or jews) condemn acts what some christians or jews have made, answer will always be: "it is not religion what made them behave so". What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".
How true that you cannot spend all of your time condemning every act by a Muslim that runs contrary to the teachings of Islam. My goodness, you would hardly have time for anything else -- as would every religion in trying to self-regulate its adherents. And we non-Muslims are wrong when we ask for that.

But I do think we are right to ask for some level of consistency:
  • that Muslims don't dance in the streets celebrating when non-Muslims are attacked;
  • that devout Muslims don't excuse other Muslims who perpetrate unIslamic acts while clainming to do so in the name of Allah; and
  • that when Muslims misuse the teachings of Islam to non-Islamic ends those who see these things as not being truly representative of Islam should continue to deny and repudiate them both face-to-face when these persons are personally known to them, and in the media when such an event is large enough to receive media attention.
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Pygoscelis
11-24-2010, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?
I wish that were the case.

But given the image cultivated by and for Islam in recent times, it just isn't.

Blunt and somewhat unfair, I know, but it is the truth. You have a serious PR problem and it is naive and blind to not see that. Perhaps prior to 9/11 and the London subway bombings and all that came after you could have relied on the assumption you speak of, but not today. These events put the spotlight on Islam in a negative light (which prior to these events was hated by some but known to relatively few in the west, and to most of us was just a remote somewhat irrelevant religion like Sikhism or Hinduism. Mohammed Ali was muslim I believe? I don't think many cared).

Once Islam was in the spotlight, yes the western media did villify it and yes there are people out there who are blindly following that media and who hate Islam and muslims, never actually having interacted with them. These are mostly conservative Christians, the tea party type, those who went visceral at the "9/11 mosque", which was ridiculous. These people are your simple bigots.

Others in the west saw this and instincitvely defended Islam, simply becuase it looked like it was being blindly and unfairly attacked by these people. I am one. I met Skavau (also on this board) on Paltalk in the social issues section while I was doing that. I, and others like me, actually went to the effort of going to places like that, and here, and other places around the internet and in real life communities to discover what exactly Islam is and who muslims are and if we can co-exist and if we should defend them from these crazies (the crowd in the paragraph above).

In doing so, some of us actually became muslims. So there is a plus for you. Others of us however encountered more hateful muslims than expected, and discovered distasteful ideologies within Islam that even the friendlier muslims do not oppose, or at least not vocally. Things like homosexuals and apostates deserving death. It is hard to truly respect a religion that considers it just for you to suffer in hellfire for not adopting it (this applies to Christianity too).

We also encounter a culture within Islam that is just as tribal as the people we see attacking it. Muslims siding with muslims, just because they are muslims, even when they are wrong. "Brothers" and "sisters" vs "Kafirs". The us vs them mentality that we looked to defend muslims from turns out to be just as propped up by muslim communities themselves.

It is rare that I have seen people like the gentleman in this thread I responded to above with such a live and let live attitude, which is why I replied to him in an encouraging and friendly manner. I would LIKE the assumption you speak of to be one that we would have of people when we learn they call themselves muslims and follow Islam, but it will take some doing to get there. More people like this gentleman I was replying to is a good start.
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Pygoscelis
11-24-2010, 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".
It is unfair to assume religion was teh cause when knowing nothing else about the situation. You're right, it could be something completely unrelated to the religion of the person. But it is perfectly fair to highlight the religion when the person proudly states the religion to be the cause or justification, which happens quite often.
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Pygoscelis
11-24-2010, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
[*]that devout Muslims don't excuse other Muslims who perpetrate unIslamic acts while clainming to do so in the name of Allah; and [*]that when Muslims misuse the teachings of Islam to non-Islamic ends those who see these things as not being truly representative of Islam should continue to deny and repudiate them both face-to-face when these persons are personally known to them, and in the media when such an event is large enough to receive media attention.
^ This

You need not spend much time or effort condemning radical muslims, but you do need to refrain from sheltering them, excusing them, enabling them, justifying them, and calling them "brothers". And when really big tings happen that draw major media attention, you should certainly be mindful of your collective image. The best example of this I can think of is the "9/11 mosque" outrage and how well the muslim people involved handled it. The crazy guy who was threatening to burn Qurans etc. This was handled very well by a number of people in various muslim communities, calmy, and taking the moral high road. Contrast that to the rioting over cartoons.
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LauraS
11-24-2010, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Last time I checked, Woodrow did not twist the article to blame others. He has an issue with how the article is presented. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Ironically, it appears to me you twisted Woodrow's comment...

Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?
I wasn't even talking about Woodrow.


Zafran- The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.

It's not that Muslims should be expected to just sit there saying so and son shouldn't have done that, that was wrong, like parrots. Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.

Pycosgelis (possible sp) pretty much sums it up.
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جوري
11-24-2010, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.

we don't believe in trickle down sins in the Muslim world.. if we did, we'd hold each western accountable for a laundry list and a history filled with hatred, rape, pillaging, colonialism, mass graves and endless wars. People usually react to an action not simply out of whimsy.. perhaps it is prudent to study what it is that causes folks to act out in such a manner you know a 'root cause analysis' instead of requesting that a billion and a half other should 'acknowledge it'

funny stuff
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GuestFellow
11-24-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I wasn't even talking about Woodrow.
Then who? Or was it a general statement. I assumed it was Woodrow since he was the first to respond to the article.

The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.
I agree the girl was just as bad as the boys. However, the media was blamed for a different issue.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I wish that were the case. But given the image cultivated by and for Islam in recent times, it just isn't. Blunt and somewhat unfair, I know, but it is the truth. You have a serious PR problem and it is naive and blind to not see that.
Yes, I am aware Muslims have failed to develop public relations skills. Karen Armstrong has highlighted this issue too. However, some Muslims have attempted to improve the Muslim community image and this cannot be denied either.

It is hard to truly respect a religion that considers it just for you to suffer in hellfire for not adopting it (this applies to Christianity too).
Personally, I am not asking for respect. Just not sweeping generalisations.

We also encounter a culture within Islam that is just as tribal as the people we see attacking it. Muslims siding with muslims, just because they are muslims, even when they are wrong. "Brothers" and "sisters" vs "Kafirs". The us vs them mentality that we looked to defend muslims from turns out to be just as propped up by muslim communities themselves.
I agree with you there. There are Muslims who have problems with other Muslims too. :

It is rare that I have seen people like the gentleman in this thread I responded to above with such a live and let live attitude, which is why I replied to him in an encouraging and friendly manner. I would LIKE the assumption you speak of to be one that we would have of people when we learn they call themselves muslims and follow Islam, but it will take some doing to get there. More people like this gentleman I was replying to is a good start.
Rashad? He is always cheerful. XD

I still doubt developing good public relation skills will significantly improve the image of Muslims. There are conflicts involving Muslim countries and until they are resolved, I doubt much will change.
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Grace Seeker
11-24-2010, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Personally, I am not asking for respect. Just not sweeping generalisations.
I don't blame you at all for seeking this. As a general rule, I too hate sweeping generalizations or any other form of stereotype.

One of the reasons that I joined this forum years ago, was to find and provide credible evidence in written form from Muslims themselves of the true nature of Islam to some of my Christian friends who were engaged in what I saw as stereotypical portrayals of Islam. I knew those generalizations that they were engaged in where not indicative of Islam because they reflected not a single Muslim that I knew personally. And at that time I was occassionally attending a mosque with my daughter, so I did indeed have regular contact with quite a number of Muslims.

Here is the sad thing. If I were to know Islam based soley on the interactions I have had with Muslims on this board, and not with those whom I know in personal and real life, I would say that the stereotype proves itself more true than false. Again, I don't say that all of Islam is that way. I certainly don't say that every individual here is that way, I could easily recite a dozen or more names that run counter to the generalization. But sadly I learned that while the generalization should never be assumed to be true of any given individual, as the public image of Islam is not universally true, that there actually is some reality behind the view of Islam that has been popularized in the western media. Muslims generally will aver to other Muslims over and against non-Muslims regardless the attitudes expressed by their fellow Muslim.

When there is a conflict between the goals or agendas of two persons and one of them is a Muslim and one of them is not. Other Muslims not invovled in the conflict generally don't seem to view the conflict in terms the issues themselves, but in terms of being supportive or non-supportive of a brother or sister in the faith.

You may disagree that this is an expression of reality. You may argue that what I say is untrue. And you may indeed be more right than I. But what you still need to hear is that these were not views that I came to this board holding, nor were my views developed as a result of the influence of western media, but rather this view that I have expressed is a direct result of my time on LI and the general tenor of what I have read here.

It is only because of my close personal relationships with Muslim friends and family in real life, that I have not fully adopted the above view. Fortunately, in every day life, Muslims remain among the nicest people I meet.
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IAmZamzam
11-24-2010, 08:17 PM
Grace Seeker, if you think of the behavior at message boards as any respresentation of any group, there is something seriously wrong with you. Think about it this way: how easily would you sleep if aliens used as their primary resource in a survey of how to judge earthlings samplings of Youtube commenters on a few videos?

You'll notice the non-Muslims of this board (which I grant are in a minority, this bearing consideration) don't very often act noticeably better. Internet places like this are to trolls and putzes what the sun would be to moths were it brought low enough to swarm around.
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Grace Seeker
11-24-2010, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Internet places like this are to trolls and putzes what the sun would be to moths were it brought low enough to swarm around.
So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?


Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.
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glo
11-24-2010, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?
Which would you rather be??
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Zafran
11-24-2010, 09:18 PM
Zafran- The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.

It's not that Muslims should be expected to just sit there saying so and son shouldn't have done that, that was wrong, like parrots. Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame
the boys did wrong - the girl did wrong - the problem lies when people do wrong - why does the enitre muslim community have to say sorry??? Your right these are incidents they come and they go.

Terry Johns showed himself in a bad light but I dont expect the entire christendom to blame there religion or even themselves for it.

another thing about Bad PR - sorry we're not selling anything here - if people want to follow Islam they can and if people dont they dont have to - if the want to hate Islam because of a few people then they are free to waste there own time and life.

well it is from the daily mail - do i have to say anymore? If we were going to condem everything the daily mail reports we will be here all day.
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Zafran
11-24-2010, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't blame you at all for seeking this. As a general rule, I too hate sweeping generalizations or any other form of stereotype.

One of the reasons that I joined this forum years ago, was to find and provide credible evidence in written form from Muslims themselves of the true nature of Islam to some of my Christian friends who were engaged in what I saw as stereotypical portrayals of Islam. I knew those generalizations that they were engaged in where not indicative of Islam because they reflected not a single Muslim that I knew personally. And at that time I was occassionally attending a mosque with my daughter, so I did indeed have regular contact with quite a number of Muslims.

Here is the sad thing. If I were to know Islam based soley on the interactions I have had with Muslims on this board, and not with those whom I know in personal and real life, I would say that the stereotype proves itself more true than false. Again, I don't say that all of Islam is that way. I certainly don't say that every individual here is that way, I could easily recite a dozen or more names that run counter to the generalization. But sadly I learned that while the generalization should never be assumed to be true of any given individual, as the public image of Islam is not universally true, that there actually is some reality behind the view of Islam that has been popularized in the western media. Muslims generally will aver to other Muslims over and against non-Muslims regardless the attitudes expressed by their fellow Muslim.

When there is a conflict between the goals or agendas of two persons and one of them is a Muslim and one of them is not. Other Muslims not invovled in the conflict generally don't seem to view the conflict in terms the issues themselves, but in terms of being supportive or non-supportive of a brother or sister in the faith.

You may disagree that this is an expression of reality. You may argue that what I say is untrue. And you may indeed be more right than I. But what you still need to hear is that these were not views that I came to this board holding, nor were my views developed as a result of the influence of western media, but rather this view that I have expressed is a direct result of my time on LI and the general tenor of what I have read here.

It is only because of my close personal relationships with Muslim friends and family in real life, that I have not fully adopted the above view. Fortunately, in every day life, Muslims remain among the nicest people I meet.
The same can be said about christian forums or any other religous forums and groups in reality.
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Zafran
11-24-2010, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
^ This

You need not spend much time or effort condemning radical muslims, but you do need to refrain from sheltering them, excusing them, enabling them, justifying them, and calling them "brothers". And when really big tings happen that draw major media attention, you should certainly be mindful of your collective image. The best example of this I can think of is the "9/11 mosque" outrage and how well the muslim people involved handled it. The crazy guy who was threatening to burn Qurans etc. This was handled very well by a number of people in various muslim communities, calmy, and taking the moral high road. Contrast that to the rioting over cartoons.
who started the 9/11 contrevesy or Quran burning or the cartoon? doesnt matter how muslims handle it - It doesnt stop the anti Islamic hatred from the extremists.
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Grace Seeker
11-24-2010, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The same can be said about christian forums or any other religous forums and groups in reality.
I am sorry if this is what you have experience. Perhaps I have been fortunate, but my experience has been different than your post would suggest.
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Pygoscelis
11-24-2010, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
who started the 9/11 contrevesy or Quran burning or the cartoon? doesnt matter how muslims handle it - It doesnt stop the anti Islamic hatred from the extremists.
True. There will always be crazies (usually the ultra right wing fundamentalist Christians ironically) who will hate muslims simply for being the "other" - for not being christians - for being muslims etc. I feel your pain from these people, because they feel the same way towards atheists as they do towards muslims.

But when the muslims then turn around and take the moral high road, don't freak out and get violent, don't respond in kind, it improves the image of Islam to those of us who are not these people. And believe it or not, we outnumber them. And perhaps muslims may wish to deny it, but yes, it does matter what image we non-muslims hold of Islam. Have you not been eyed wearily by some ignorant westerner or been racially profiled? Heck, the Image of Islam has gotten so bad that a friend of mine who is atheist gets harrassed because he "looks muslim". Apparently some people are even confusing "muslim" as a race. Some guy got stabbed in New York around the time of the "ground zero mosque" too, for "looking muslim".

I truly believe that the quran burning crazy preacher guy PURPOSEFULLY did what he did in an attempt to bait and rile up muslims so as to provide another talking point about how muslims are. I would wager very heavily that he did it hoping for a violent response. Instead he got a measured, calm, and peaceful response of "how sad for this man to be so hateful".

Contrast that to people rioting in the streets after learning about a cartoon. That difference in approach really DOES make a difference for the image of Islam.
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GuestFellow
11-24-2010, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

But when the muslims then turn around and take the moral high road, don't freak out and get violent, don't respond in kind, it improves the image of Islam to those of us who are not these people.
Your right that Muslims should not respond violently to insults. It gives publicity to these people who insult Islam.
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Zafran
11-24-2010, 10:16 PM
well they you go the 9/11 contreversy and the Quran burning incidents have demonized Muslims - Even if muslims acted calmly people are still harrassed simply because they look muslim - You gave good examples of showing that it doesnt matter how muslims act - people are ready to hate muslims and even try to kill them - like the Taxi driver during the ground zero contreversy.

The people that demonize muslims are winning not because they are right but people want to believe there messege.
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IAmZamzam
11-24-2010, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?
I can't speak for you but the very fact I continue to post makes me a putz.

Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.
I have no love lost for someone telling me (though of course refusing to come right out and say it directly) that they're trying to fight off a growing prejudice. It's an admirable effort if you're really making it (most people probably never bother to try and fight the onset at all when it happens to them) but not one that other people can help you with, let alone by behaving differently from the attitudes you're trying to train yourself not to expect through stereotype. Your "distress" is natural and upright. What am I supposed to do, act sympathetic toward someone who euphemizes that they're "generally" against sweeping stereotpyes but there is a "grain of truth" to this one even though they don't actually hold it, really they don't!

Fight it, yes. Fight it and die fighting if you must. What will not help you in doing so is making your successes dependent on individual people's behavior. That is not fighting it; that is feeding it. If a man is trying to stave off a racism against blacks, letting his opinion be at the mercy of any black who happens to come his way or interact with him regularly is exactly the last thing he needs to be doing.
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LauraS
11-25-2010, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


we don't believe in trickle down sins in the Muslim world.. if we did, we'd hold each western accountable for a laundry list and a history filled with hatred, rape, pillaging, colonialism, mass graves and endless wars. People usually react to an action not simply out of whimsy.. perhaps it is prudent to study what it is that causes folks to act out in such a manner you know a 'root cause analysis' instead of requesting that a billion and a half other should 'acknowledge it'

funny stuff
I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us.
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أحمد
11-25-2010, 12:08 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by LauraS
I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us.
Look at what triggers such responses; instead of identifying certain Muslims who are "extremists", you choose to write "Islamic extremists", as if Islam is behind their "extremism".

Just because the media makes an insult common, doesn't mean its no longer an insult. Try to keep that in mind.

This disease seems to be growing rapidly, any time a "Muslim" commits a crime; somehow its an "Islamic act".

:wa:
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IslamicRevival
11-25-2010, 12:17 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong.
I kind of get where you're coming from but i wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone here is a Taliban sympathizer
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جوري
11-25-2010, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?
who are the 'Muslims' that your ladyship would like to acknowledge the blame?
Originally Posted by LauraS
Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.
take a moment or two to think before you write!
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Perseveranze
11-25-2010, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?


Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.
You should judge a Religion, in particularly Islam by it's teachings not by it's followers. Were all human at the end of the day, we do make mistakes and things such as ignorance, hypocrasy and evil desires can sometimes sway minds away from the real deen.

Yes, some Muslims who I rather label as hypocrites do take things to the extreme and go against teachings of the Sunnah/Quran and try to justify actions behind the "Islam Title", you can call them bad seeds if you like, but every religion or group shall I say has bad seeds. There are also those that are "slightly misguided", but that's usually down to human error or a direct misunderstanding.

Point is, Islam's root teachings do no promote violence against other people or races. Yes, it does allow a person to be violent, but that's only under special circumstances. These circumstances might I add go together with "basic human nature", in other words, self-defence. Animals will always struggle(fight) to protect not only themselves but also their cubsin a bid to survive. Humans are no different, if we are being attacked, or oppressed then we will by natural human instincts fight against the oppression. Any other form of fighting is against Islams teachings. I have absolutly no doubts about this, no way nearly 2 Billion people are following this religion because it encourages violence, with the exception of few, no one likes real unconditioned violence in this world.

Regarding negative expression of words, again this goes against the fundemental teachings of Islam.

"Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious." – Qur’an English Translation [16:125]

When you look at countries today like Indonesia, China, parts of Africa, Malaysia - some of these places have the largest Muslims population in the world, yet not a single Muslim army set foot on their lands. Only merchants/traders who preached the religion through rightoues and peaceful manners did it spread throughout the countries. On top of this, many established hadiths support the fact that as a Muslim, bad words and negativity should never come out from his/her mouth.

I suppose your main concern might not be the teachings, but the fact that somehow there are people that are being "influenced" shall we say in a negative manner that could be dangerous to yourself or others in a violent sense, right? Ofcourse you should realise that people in different religions are influenced by different things, I could likewise say some Christians are influenced by the Crusaders etc. As far as Islam goes, these misguided people can only be guided back to the right teachings of its religion, as its obligatory for every Muslim to guide their brother/sisters who have astrayed. Those that transgress laws get punished, according to their state laws.

I remember reading a article and it highlighted that, when people read the Quran they can try to make out of it what "they want". So if someone is clearly looking for any negatives in the Quran, then they'll certainly make that of it. Most, usually don't seek any knowledge on the meanings of verses and when they put it up against a Muslim and the Muslim tells them that they are either intepretting it wrong or taking it out of context, the non-believer is so secluded in their own intentions that they'll narrow mindedly won't accept such a justification as an answer. Ofcourse it's usually the one who's more open minded that will get a click in their brain and not ignore the overwhelming amount of positives/peace teachings the book contains. And you can say whether something is violent or peaceful, it should be catagorized under one. Some who misintepret/brainwashed will put it under violent/evil, others will think a bit and say, something can't contradict like this, it can't tell you to "give to charity, help the elderly/widow, respect your parents, have tolerance, take in orphans etc in one chapter and then tell you to kill people in another chapter", it just doesn't make sense. There has to be a meaning behind one of them which justify's it, and most obviously it's likely to be the one which you percieve to "encourage" violence. The person will then further research these verses and clear the doubt and put Islam's mainstream and proper teachings under the Peace catagory.

In the end, I just think it is pretty unfair to pin violence on Muslims, when what we are meant to follow certainly contradicts this. The majority of the Muslims in the world do not encourage violence, not by words or actions. Islam didn't spread through violence, over 80% of the muslims in the world are non-arabs (arab lands is where Islam orginated from). It is only people who believe otherwise that usually judge a religion by acts of a small minority of it's followers, which I think in all moral senses is wrong.
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IAmZamzam
11-25-2010, 02:53 AM
Suggestion for Grace Seeker and any number of others: stop watching the news. As I've explained before every generation has its pet great big bogus bogeyman to scare you with so you'll keep supporting the news and its ratings. In Victorian times it was pornographers, in the 50's and whereabouts Communists, now it's Muslims selectively focused and spat on. We should all just wait for it to blow over eventually, because the moment they find their next boogeyman and start reporting their scare stories almost exclusively on him instead, prejudice against Muslims (what a coincidence!) will take a sharp drop.
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Pygoscelis
11-25-2010, 02:16 PM
Yahya, that is about half the problem.

The other half is what this thread has been about.
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GuestFellow
11-25-2010, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

Look at what triggers such responses; instead of identifying certain Muslims who are "extremists", you choose to write "Islamic extremists", as if Islam is behind their "extremism".

Just because the media makes an insult common, doesn't mean its no longer an insult. Try to keep that in mind.

This disease seems to be growing rapidly, any time a "Muslim" commits a crime; somehow its an "Islamic act".

:wa:
:wa:

You've raised a very good point. Sometimes, these people remind me of children, always repeating what is said on TV. :/
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IAmZamzam
11-25-2010, 03:04 PM
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
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sister herb
11-25-2010, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
What about this: "Islam teaches it is wrong to attack non-Muslims"?

A problem are of course those people whose don´t want to believe/listen this but only opposite.
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LauraS
11-25-2010, 06:34 PM
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.
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أحمد
11-25-2010, 06:41 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by LauraS
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.
If you think its an "Islamic" act, then present your evidence.

:wa:
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LauraS
11-25-2010, 06:56 PM
Of course it's not an Islamic act, but it's soemthing calling for people not of their religion to be killed and a form of extremism. The crusaders slaughtered innocent Muslims, any God worth worshipping would never condone it, but these people are still called Chritians.
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أحمد
11-25-2010, 07:18 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by LauraS
Of course it's not an Islamic act, but it's soemthing calling for people not of their religion to be killed and a form of extremism. The crusaders slaughtered innocent Muslims, any God worth worshipping would never condone it, but these people are still called Chritians.
Indeed, they were Christians, but their actions weren't caused by their religion. They were following the commands of a human being, who wanted to "take back" some land, and kill people in the process.

Similarly, if a "Muslim" commits an evil act; it doesn't become "Islamic". Before anything else, human beings are capable of sin, greed, jealousy and many other attributes, which makes us far from flawless. The deen on the other hand, teaches perfection; one can only try to follow it to the best of their ability. There are always obsticles; life is full of "good" and "bad" trials.

The media's term extremism is quite different to the real English word, which means to abide by something "to the extreme". Islam prohibits killing of innocent, including the person in war who drops his sword while you're about to kill him. As he has dropped his sword; he's no longer attacking you, so you can't kill him. This is the real Islamic extremism. Are you talking about this?

Usama bin Zayd (RA) had killed a man he was fighting; just as he was "finishing him off", the man shouted his surrender, by saying لا إله إلا الله (there's no God, except Allah [the one true God]). Rasoolullah :saws1: questioned him later, أقتلته بعدما قال لاإله إلا الله؟, that you killed him even though he said la ilaaha illallah? (i.e. after he surrendered). To say the shahaadah; its more than just surrendering, but given the circumstances between the Muslims at the time, and those oppressing them; it meant that the person you're fighting is now serious about peace.

Hadeeth also teaches us another truth about someone who commits an evil act; that such a person isn't in the state of Imaan, while he/she is sinning.

:wa:
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Woodrow
11-25-2010, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?

It's not about wanting Muslims on this board to apologise for everything that goes on, why should you? I've already said numerous times what bothers people, the fact that there's refusal to see the problems at the moment, it's not just western media portrayals. There is some basis of truth behind what is said and there is a lot of hate directed towards western non-Muslims. It's not all one sided. To not get so angry and defensive whenever something is posted putting fellow Muslims in a bad light, but discuss it as an issue. You expect non-Muslims to ignore anything Muslims do wrong as not truly representing the religion but are forever posting about Jews, Christians or whatever who have done this and that.
Just entering in a few of my own views here. Extremism need not be a bad thing. If a person firmly believes in something it is to be expected and perhaps even admired that they will stand by their convictions and let their views be kept open and public. That may be an extremist. Many of us Muslims are extremists in that context. But we would never willfully harm another person for the purpose of imposing our beliefs upon them.

I think what is called extremist in the media is better defined as being unreasoning radicalism. That is the type of thought that would justify any act for the purpose of making one's own thoughts to be the only ones permitted.

Terrorism is another matter. Terrorism has no religious or ethnic identity a terrorist is a terrorist and there is no need for any identifying label to be attached to them. Terrorists come in all shapes, colors beliefs and flavors. They basically all follow the same concepts and serve only themselves.

Christian Terrorist=Muslim Terrorist=Jewish Terrorist=Hindu Terrorist=Buddhist Terrorist=Atheist Terrorist All the same thing, but often labeled as a religion's teachings by the media. Oddly tho the press seems to find it easiest to use the title Muslim terrorist and simply call any other Terrorist. We do not hold a monopoly on owning any terrorists and condemn the actions of all terrorists. They all share the same evil heart.
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LauraS
11-25-2010, 10:26 PM
^^^Maybe members are offended by the term extremist because the meaning has been changed but to the poster (are you still Ahmed Waheed? :S Sorry lol, obviously I don't know Arabic) you know what I'm referring to, whatever word you want to label preachers of violence, it's still an issue.

Woodrow- you are right, they are all the same- misguided people carrying out evil acts and they exist amongst all of us, regardless of religion or race. That's what I personally want, to be generally able to discuss radical Muslims or any other religion and for it to be accepted they are out there instead of denial. If none of us agree with their views then we shouldn't be arguing, but be able to talk sensibly with each other because we are the ones that have to stand against it.

I wish I could word it better but there we are.
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GuestFellow
11-25-2010, 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
Ahmed Waheed- If it's not Islamic extremism to advocate killing non-Muslims (which does happen) then what is it?
There are some Muslims that carry out attacks against western countries and even Muslim countries, targeting US embassies. Some westerners believe that these Muslims are attacking non-Muslims because of Islam. However, this is not the case. These people can continue to believe this, but end of the day, they are only fooling themselves.

The US and it allies have been developing policies that have angered many Muslims in the Middle East and South Asia. These policies involved supporting Israel unequivocally, supporting dictatorship regimes like in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and setting up military bases throughout the Middle East. This is before 9/11. Now, some Muslims are getting more angry due to the Afghanistan and Iraq war. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the cartoon controversy, Niqaab ban in France, Minerat ban and the mainstream media attitude towards Islam and Muslims have made things much worse. Following 9/11, many westerners took a hawkish stance against Muslims.

As a result, some Muslims are angry with westerners. Some will go further and carry out attacks and use Islam to justify it. Of course, killing innocent civilians is wrong and only makes things worse.
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Zafran
11-26-2010, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
I'm sorry? Does this board have a billion and a half members?

To Zafran too, this isn't about (my part in the discussion anyway) the Muslims community across the world, but this messageboard. I've actually read many statements and heard Muslims speak out against the actions of fellow Muslims. However on this board, on the whole, you prefer to defend Muslims rather than admit they're wrong. I even saw members dismiss another Muslim's post about his family's suffering under the Taliban because they refuse to hear bad things about Muslim groups.

There is talk of non-Muslims extremists but whenever I mention Islamic extremists I get questions like "well, what's an extremist?" Every article written about the actions of non-Muslims is believed but articles like the above (it may be from the Daily Mail, but the story will obviously have some ring of truth it) are just dismissed as having an anti-Muslim agenda.

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us .
This is about the muslim community for goodness sake we're talking about an example that actually happend by muslims - do you know the reason they like to use - its got everything to do with the muslim community.

Again your problem is that you like Generalising - here is a very good example - just because some muslims on this board have view A does not mean that all muslims have the same view on this board. Some people do support the taliban on this forum but so far I havent heard a single muslim on this board defending what the muslims did in the daily mail article if you have I like to see examples - many muslims have clearly said that the the muslims and the non muslim did wrong -

On this board in general, I'm afraid there is an attitude of you must respect Islam, but we can pick apart and dismiss all other religions. We acknowledge not all Muslims are good but refuse to believe any might antagonise non-Muslims like non-Muslim extremists antagonise us
I havent heard a single person actaully being coerced on this board to respect Islam. If we had dismissed all religions all non muslim members who disagreed with Islam would have been banned by now. -On you last statement can you give an example where or who actually said that?

Edit - last but not least I think Proffessorsunday has given a wholistic view on the entire Islamic extremists view and preety much what its about - picking up a single example in the daily mail doesnt explain why there are extremists out there and how they came about and what needs to be done to solve the problem. Frankly your one way focus hasnt solve the problem so far and never will. Its a daily mail waste of time.
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Zafran
11-26-2010, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
There are some Muslims that carry out attacks against western countries and even Muslim countries, targeting US embassies. Some westerners believe that these Muslims are attacking non-Muslims because of Islam. However, this is not the case. These people can continue to believe this, but end of the day, they are only fooling themselves.

The US and it allies have been developing policies that have angered many Muslims in the Middle East and South Asia. These policies involved supporting Israel unequivocally, supporting dictatorship regimes like in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and setting up military bases throughout the Middle East. This is before 9/11. Now, some Muslims are getting more angry due to the Afghanistan and Iraq war. Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, the cartoon controversy, Niqaab ban in France, Minerat ban and the mainstream media attitude towards Islam and Muslims have made things much worse. Following 9/11, many westerners took a hawkish stance against Muslims.

As a result, some Muslims are angry with westerners. Some will go further and carry out attacks and use Islam to justify it. Of course, killing innocent civilians is wrong and only makes things worse.
Very well said I hope Laura is paying attention.
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Ramadhan
11-26-2010, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
There are some Muslims that carry out attacks against western countries and even Muslim countries, targeting US embassies. Some westerners believe that these Muslims are attacking non-Muslims because of Islam. However, this is not the case. These people can continue to believe this, but end of the day, they are only fooling themselves.

In fact, the so-called western-branded "muslim extremists slash muslim terrorists" who committed suicide bombings in Indonesia have killed more muslims than non-muslims.

All muslim groups in Indonesia have publicly condemned the terrorists acts, saying that Islam certainly does not teach to kill innocent civilian people, let alone innocent civilian muslims.
However, this does not mean that it weakens strong condemnations by those same groups against injustices done on muslims worldwide by non-muslims.
There are infinitely more innocent civilian muslims killed by non-muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan and palestine than non-muslims killed by muslims in western countries, but have we ever heard the term "western terorrists"? certainly NOT in all mainstream media.

As unc. Woodrow said, a terrorist is a terrorist, and there has been strong concerted efforts to make the term terrorists synonimous with Islam. why were IRA terrorists not called Catholic terrorists? etc etc.

Hence, I don't get the rants by non-muslims in this thread. As another poster has asked earlier:
So, what do you want people (I'm pointing finger at you, Laura, GS and the likes)??
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Junon
11-26-2010, 01:22 PM
Salaam

Originally Posted by naidamar
As unc. Woodrow said, a terrorist is a terrorist, and there has been strong concerted efforts to make the term terrorists synonimous with Islam. why were IRA terrorists not called Catholic terrorists? etc etc.
Just a little aside on the prejudice the Irish experienced in the UK during the time of the 'troubles' and the similarities to the experience of Muslims

Anti-Irish racism in the late 20th century because there are so many parallels with the recent experience of the Muslim population. Racism occurs in a political context; in the case of the Irish in Britain it was the war in the North rather than IRA attacks on civilians (e.g. the Birmingham pub bombings) that gave it legs. The Prevention of Terrorism Act, pushed through after the bombings, had little effect on ‘terrorism’ but, by stigmatising the Irish population, effectively silenced criticism of British actions in Ireland.

To speak out was to be identified as a ‘terrorist sympathiser’. Long held notions of the primitive backwardness of Irish Catholicism were often invoked to explain the ‘fanaticism’ of Republicans and their supporters. A great deal of media time was spent examining the ways in which Catholic theology could be seen as justifying IRA actions – for example, the idea of a ‘just war’.

Demonisation of Republicans was common: media headlines often used the word ‘evil’ to describe both actions and the people who carried them out. Most venom was reserved for the small number of priests who were IRA supporters. Finally, and most importantly, the deeply held and particularly English view of the Irish as ‘thick Paddies’ came into its own in police or Special Branch-inspired media commentary on the methods, especially the mistakes, of IRA members.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...m-world-4.html post #49

So yeah what Muslims are experiencing is not a new phenomena.
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sister herb
11-26-2010, 03:06 PM
I am member of one Irish forum. In cause what I know about British occupation in Northern Ireland, I wouldn´t call IRA as terrorist but freedom fighters. If someone really wants to label IRA as terrorist, then British occupy troops are also terrorist?
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glo
11-26-2010, 03:25 PM
^
Isn't that always the way? That one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?

What's interesting about the Northern Ireland conflict is that a reasonable peace and living/working together and reconciliation was actually achieved. And Protestants and Catholics, who were at war with each other for generations are relearning to live side by side.
That's very encouraging!

By the end of the day everybody wants the same - a peaceful community to raise ones children, and the same rights and freedoms as everybody else.
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Junon
11-26-2010, 03:34 PM
Salaam

I think the Northern Ireland conflict is a bit more complicated than that.

Theres no doubt that there has been British oppression, prejudice in Northern Ireland (see above post). But much of the prejudice faced by the Irish Catholics were actually from the Irish Protestant side of the population. (they had access to the best jobs etc etc). In fact during the late 1960s Irish Catholics initially wanted the British army to come in to protect them but as usual when you have an occupying force, atrocities are going to happen so the conflict escalated.

In fact there are many in the British establishment who would be quite happy if Northern Ireland went its own way so to speak.

However there is a substantial Protestant population in northern Ireland and they wish to remain part of the UK, so its not such a clear cut conflict and you have to remember atrocities were committed by both sides.
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glo
11-26-2010, 03:39 PM
^
You are right, the Northern Ireland conflict was much more a political conflict than a religious one.
It just so happened that - for historical reasons and loyalties - the Catholics sided with the Republic of Ireland and the Protestants saw their allegiance with Britain.
Hence what might appear like a religious conflict on the surface was really about political loyalties.
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GuestFellow
11-26-2010, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by glo
^
Isn't that always the way? That one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?
I think the word terrorist should not be used, especially by politicians and academics. There is a reason why people carry out attacks. Labeling these people terrorists tends to portray an inaccurate picture of what is actually happening.
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Junon
11-26-2010, 04:00 PM
Salaam

I never liked the use of the word 'religion' or 'religious' what on earth does it mean? whenever I ask I get a hundred, thousand different definitions. the word is actually a recently invention of the 18th C when European colonisers came into contact with other people who had vastly different world views but I'm digressing (maybe I should make a topic about it :P ).

so to say 'religion' is not involved in the conflict, I'm not to sure what to think - I think the reasons for the conflict are multifaceted, 'religion' is in there somewhere.
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sister herb
11-26-2010, 04:01 PM
I didn´t claim that conflict in there is by religion - they both are Christians, right? But why to call only other side as terrorists and other side not? Ok ok then call other side simply terrorist and others as state terrorism? Are they both then Christian etxremist or Christian terrorist as they are Christians and attack against another Christians?
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glo
11-26-2010, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Are they both then Christian etxremist or Christian terrorist as they are Christians and attack against another Christians?
Yes, they are.
I guess people try to differentiate by breaking the group 'Christans' into sub-groups - Protestants and Catholics.
Similar to making a distinction between Sunni and Shia Muslims in those places where the two groups are feuding.
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Junon
11-26-2010, 04:12 PM
Salaam

Yes sister Harb, I don't think anybody called the IRA or its opposite numbers 'extremists', 'terrorists' yes but not extremists. Certainly not 'Christian extremists'.
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IAmZamzam
11-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Do I really have to be the first to make the common sense suggestion that we all drop all these labels and just talk about the issues? What is it with people and labels??
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sister herb
11-26-2010, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Yes, they are.
I guess people try to differentiate by breaking the group 'Christans' into sub-groups - Protestants and Catholics.
Similar to making a distinction between Sunni and Shia Muslims in those places where the two groups are feuding.
Peace my sister in humanity

(actually I respect humanity the most)

I think you understood meaning of my post. Not sur if some muslims understood it at all as to many shias are not muslims at all.

Any ways, we are sisters and brothers together like all humans are. Allah doesn´t create us to attack each others without very good reason. This is what Islam teach to us.

To me glo you are respected sister by humanity and my sister of Eve.
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Watcher888
11-26-2010, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by quranalim
I think depending on what madhab you are. you should follow the scholar (not interpret hadith or quran yourself)

if your hanafi you should beleive Imam Hanifa's theory of Darl al harb.

All 4 imams believed that muslims should fight non muslims in an offensive war. because they are non muslim (this is called jihad al talab).

But they disagreed on whether they should be attacked or given dawah first. all 4 schoalars believed (from what i have seen) have the view that they should be asked to pay jizyah first


(also, this offensive war can not be carried out without a muslim ruler)

""They would not invade you, but you invade them."" [Quote of the prophet]

Muhammad Sa'id Ramadan al-Buti, Jurisprudence in Muhammad's Biography (Damascus: Dar al-Fikr, 2001), pp. 242
(Link removed.)


This lets the cat out of the bag!
And if non muslims are killled/murdered, how does anyone know if they would or would not have submitted in the future?
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جوري
11-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by Watcher888
This lets the cat out of the bag! And if non muslims are killled/murdered, how does anyone know if they would or would not have submitted in the future?

It isn't not up to 'someone' to decide folks are all resurrected and judged on their intent have you any basic background in Islam at all past the inane drivel they feed you at Zionist training camps?
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'Abd-al Latif
11-26-2010, 06:06 PM
:salamext:

Have a break, have a kit kat.

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