What makes a Muslim, Shahada or Salaah?

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

I get confused with this because I know that if a Muslim that doesn't pray willingly he's considered a kaafir, but then what about the shahada?

I tried to advise someone about salah and told him that a muslim who doesn't pray is considered a kaafir, and he got really offended :x I didn't mean to offend him or relate him to a kaafir, but that's how he took it...he said the shahada is what makes them a Muslim..but how much is the shahada's weight compared to salaah?

[distressed]

Salaam

Its not as simple as that, if a muslim doesnt pray cos he doesnt belive its necessary, or not part of islam is known as a kaafir, but one who doesnt pray out of laziness...isnt, thats the way i see, it, and have been told. I dont pray, and i would be highly offended, if some1 called me a kaafir, i dont blame your friend. no1 has the right to call any1 a kaafir.

doesnt a muslim calling another person a kaafir, get taken out of the fold of islam themselves ? not sure if theres any truth on that.

D

[Alpha Dude]

Its not as simple as that, if a muslim doesnt pray cos he doesnt belive its necessary, or not part of islam is known as a kaafir, but one who doesnt pray out of laziness...isnt
D

This is correct. According to the majority of ulema, such a person would be considered fasiq, not kaafir.

[serena77]

i'm sorry... please forgive my ignorance but what is fasiq....
Serena

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[Alpha Dude]

Serena, a faasiq is an open sinner/corrupt person.

Not necessarily directed at the OP, but just to add, it would be better if you used the mentioned hadith in the following manner, if you were advising someone:

Prophet Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam has said words to the effect: "the dividing line between kufr and iman is salah". This highlights the importance of salah. It's a very very grave matter and one that we cannot afford to take lightly. So inshaAllah, let's make effort.

Vs

Haram!!! You're a kaafir cos you don't pray!!! La howla wala quwata! Inna Lillahi wa innah ilahi ra'jioon. Repent!! Astaghfirullah.

The latter approach is not likely to work on anyone. :)

[serena77]

thank you brother ...
sounds like the old.. you get more flies w/ honey then w/ vinegar?

Salaam
Serena

[جوري]

but one who doesnt pray out of laziness.

yes that is what we would call a fasiq not a kaffir.. not a good thing either but hey.. many of us where there once..

:w:

[جوري]

Serena, a faasiq is an open sinner/corrupt person.

ha you beat me to it :lol: I guess I should read all the posts before I myself post..

Jazaka Allah

:w:

[marwen]

^^ I agree with these answers above.

If I may only add something on the importance of shahada. Shahada is not just some words to say. it's a commitment, and we should be aware of its meaning and its implications/conditions.

There should not be a separation between Shahada and Ibadat (acts of worship).

Shahada is a kind of contract, it implies that you do worship (prayer, zakat, fasting, hajj : the pillars of islam).

Saying Shahada means you believe in Allah, the only one God, and that Muhammad (PBUH) is His messenger : Muhammad(PBUH) is a messenger of Allah means that Muhammad(PBUH) is carrying a message from Allah : Quran+Sunnah. This means : you accept this message from Allah (through his messenger) and you follow the instructions in this message, like the ibadat (prayer, etc.) and the islamic faith (creed).

Making only Shahada and intentionally* neglecting one of / or all the other pillars of islam (prayer, zakat, fasting, hajj) has only 2 explanations :
1) The person believes he must do them but he neglected them because of laziness or delinquency, in this case he's still considered a muslim, but he's considered 'fasiq' (a delinquent muslim /not sure of the right translation of 'fasiq').
2) The person don't believe we should do prayer or zakat, etc. This means he didn't understand/accept the meaning/terms of Shahada. Therefore he's considered a kaffir.

* : We're only talking about intentionally neglecting prayer or any other pillar of islam while we're able to do it. We're not talking about muslims who are not able to do an act of worship (fasting, prayer, ..) because of forgetfulness, sickness, lack of knowledge etc.

[distressed]

a faasiq is an open sinner/corrupt person.

corrupt ? just cos a person doesnt pray, doesnt automatically make them a corrupt person, that can mean loads of different things, they are disobedient to the faith, and sinning, your right, but hardly corrupt.

[Alpha Dude]

Good post Marwen, totally agree.

corrupt ? just cos a person doesnt pray, doesnt automatically make them a corrupt person, that can mean loads of different things, they are disobedient to the faith, and sinning, your right, but hardly corrupt.

Kindly appreciate that I was trying to give a definition of the Arabic word 'faasiq', not necessarily trying to say one who does not pray salah is 'corrupt' in and of itself.

Faasiq is a term applied to those people who indulge in sin (could be any sin, not just missing salah). I translated that word to mean 'corrupt'. My translation could be wrong.

However, I see no problem in calling a sinner as 'corrupt'. Anyone on the wrong path/not trying, is corrupt. This doesn't mean I am being judgemental, I wish them to see the light but you have to see them for what they are through the lens of sharia.

So, in the eyes of sharia:

corrupt person = one who indulges in sin without striving or trying (whilst accepting that he is sinning, so he wouldn't be considered a kaafir)

uncorrupt person = one who is striving and trying his level best (whilst may still fall into sin, he will immediately repent)

[serena77]

is it common .... or more likely that a new muslim is more often to forget all the prayers.... i mean being catholic..... its ( rough example... ) but.... forgetting some of the lower feast days.... is more common until you get used to .. again for lack of better words ... how things work....
Does that make them a sinner.. when they are trying when it is their intent to make every prayer but on occasion.. time does get away from them.

Serena

[جوري]

Kindly appreciate that I was trying to give a definition of the Arabic word 'faasiq', not necessarily trying to say one who does not pray salah is 'corrupt' in and of itself.

here is the definition:

فاسق = n . fornicator, philanderer, Don Juan, libertine, miscreant, scab

adj. dissolute, dissipated, debauched, profligate, wanton, degraded, licentious, lecherous, lewd, lascivious, rakish, raffish, immoral, unchaste, uninhibited, bawdy, obscene, punk, scarlet, light, lubricious, slippery

http://translation.babylon.com/arabic/to-english/

[Alpha Dude]

adj. dissolute, dissipated, debauched, profligate, wanton, degraded, licentious, lecherous, lewd, lascivious, rakish, raffish, immoral, unchaste, uninhibited, bawdy, obscene, punk, scarlet, light, lubricious, slippery

Looks like the definition of corrupt to me. :)

[distressed]

However, I see no problem in calling a sinner as 'corrupt'. Anyone on the wrong path/not trying, is corrupt. This doesn't mean I am being judgemental, I wish them to see the light but you have to see them for what they are through the lens of sharia

i find it offensive. being lazy, yeh but hardly corrupt. you dont see no problem in it, cos your on the right path, therefore its easy for you to say, to some1 else, like its easy for the OP to say to her friend hes a kaafir ? !!! & you are judging. !

[distressed]

فاسق = n . fornicator, philanderer, Don Juan, libertine, miscreant, scab adj. dissolute, dissipated, debauched, profligate, wanton, degraded, licentious, lecherous, lewd, lascivious, rakish, raffish, immoral, unchaste, uninhibited, bawdy, obscene, punk, scarlet, light, lubricious, slippery

I looked up the meaning for fasiq, got none of the above, and wanton actually refers to a **** ?

[جوري]

Looks like the definition of corrupt to me. :)

Yup...

i find it offensive. being lazy, yeh but hardly corrupt. you dont see no problem in it, cos your on the right path, therefore its easy for you to say, to some1 else, like its easy for the OP to say to her friend hes a kaafir ? !!! & you are judging. !

There are worse things in life than being offended, for instance being a sinner (I understand the need for political correctness) with all this globalization that is going on but in actuality one who neglects their duties is exactly that .. I have myself admitted that many of us were there (myself included) I have gone through the entirety of my teenage years not praying (astghfor Allah) and may Allah swt forgive me-- I was Muslim in name only and wanted nothing to do with Islam.. it is truly a gift to realize the error in ones ways.. I don't think however on my journey back that it was offense of the term 'fasiq' that swayed me one way or the other-- I always knew what it was, I just didn't care.. I don't think people who are remiss about their religion really care for the labels!

:w:

[جوري]

I looked up the meaning for fasiq, got none of the above, and wanton actually refers to a **** ?

a ***** amongst other things-yes! fasiq/fasid are pretty much of the same stock. Someone who is sinning, the gradation of sin isn't mentioned in the definition.. as in Islam we have cardinal sins and minor sins, but the term is a catchall!

:w:

[distressed]

it is truly a gift to realize the error in ones ways.. I don't think however on my journey back that it was offense of the term 'fasiq' that swayed me one way or the other-- I always knew what it was, I just didn't care.. I don't think people who are remiss about their religion really care for the labels!

ok, Good for you!

[جوري]

ok, Good for you!

Yup--Thanks!

[GuestFellow]

i find it offensive. being lazy, yeh but hardly corrupt. you dont see no problem in it, cos your on the right path, therefore its easy for you to say, to some1 else, like its easy for the OP to say to her friend hes a kaafir ? !!! & you are judging. !

Salaam,

I don't think anyone meant to judge you. There must have been many Muslims who became religious later on in life. None of us are perfect.

[Alpha Dude]

Dear sister, I think you are not following what I am trying to say.

Faasiq, is not what I termed a person who does not pray. Faasiq is a term the scholars of Islam have used to categorise those people who indulge in major sins like missing salah. This is an issue related to jurisprudence.

I.e. scholars have taken the term kaafir and given a definition of what acts one must do or beliefs one must hold to be considered a kaafir and likewise with the term faasiq.

So you have for example:

Kafir: one who disbeliefs in Allah, one who blasphemes, etc. This is a DEFINITION of kafir.
Faasiq: one who openly sins with total disregard for sharia (yet acknowledging that he is sinning). This is a DEFINITION of faasiq.
Muttaqi: Upright and pious person, someone who tries his best to avoid sin and gives Allah his due. This is a DEFINITION of muttaqi.

If we see someone who doesn't pray we are not going to say he is a kaafir (unless he believes praying is not required or does something else blatant that takes him outside of the fold of islam), and we can hardly say he is a muttaqi, so where else does he fit in the above list? Obviously, faasiq.

Now, faasiq translated into English can mean 'corrupt', but not in the sense that you are assuming/ i.e. 'evil' or something along those lines, I assume.

I would say, faasiq = one who indulges in sin WITHOUT FEELING GUILT or any remorse, without even having the desire to rectify himself.

Also, re: judging. I don't look at everyone who doesn't pray and think 'tsk tsk tsk'. That's stupid. I am personally a very sinful person and would NEVER assume or TAKE FOR GRANTED that I am on the straight path and neither should anyone else.

Anyone who does has falled prey to the shaytan.

I try to make dua for guidance at least 32 times a day and we ALL do in our salah when we say 'ihdinas siratal mustaqeem'/'show us the right path way' in surah fatiha.

If it was a matter of having guarantee of being on the right path, we wouldn't ask Allah this many times a day for guidance.

[distressed]

I don't think anyone meant to judge you. There must have been many Muslims who became religious later on in life. None of us are perfect.

you'd think so ? I like the way, some members on here they think they are just that PERFECT ..seriously no1 makes mistakes, but its pretty easy for you guys to talk down and judge others.

[Alpha Dude]

If we see someone who doesn't pray we are not going to say he is a kaafir (unless he believes praying is not required or does something else blatant that takes him outside of the fold of islam), and we can hardly say he is a muttaqi, so where else does he fit in the above list? Obviously, faasiq.

Also, just to note, it would be tactless and devoid of wisdom, to go around telling anyone who doesn't pray 'hey, you're a faasiq <_<'. That's not going to help them. They're not going to start praying if you try to say that.

The only reason the word faasiq has been mentioned in this thread at all is because the sister wanted to know for the sake of knowledge. It's not like we're advising her 'hey, go ahead and call your friend a faasiq'. :)

[GuestFellow]

you'd think so ? I like the way, some members on here they think they are just that PERFECT ..seriously no1 makes mistakes, but its pretty easy for you guys to talk down and judge others.

I am certain that all Muslims on this forum are aware that they are not perfect and we all make mistakes.

[جوري]

you'd think so ? I like the way, some members on here they think they are just that PERFECT ..seriously no1 makes mistakes, but its pretty easy for you guys to talk down and judge others.

How could you possibly guess what other people think of themselves? or that they are making judgment about others? Do you not think that perhaps you are prematurely doing just that? passing judgment and falsely attributing traits that might not have crossed other people's minds all together?
When we project our feelings unto others we are letting people know what goes on in our own psyche!

:w:

[جوري]

just as an addendum to the above. to judge is to be critical of someone, and I don't see how anyone can be critical of those they've never met? people are simply sharing definitions. Definitions don't necessarily have feelings of hope or disdain or anything else attached to them unless the individual chooses to elaborate on what those definitions conjure up in feelings. It is certainly not our place to inject that one must have a feeling of perfection or superiority or that of looking down on others simply for elaborating on a terminology!

I could have for instance taken your 'good for you' as a caustic tone of biting sarcasm, but choose not to attribute such a hostile notion to something as innocuous as 'good for you' I choose to take it in good will. We see in others what we are in fact!

all the best

[serena77]

i'll be the first to admit on here i make mistakes as i have yet to take my shahada ... There may even be those who think that is a mistake.....
but I have never seen anyone on here who thinks they know everything about Islam or anything else. i'm sorry distressed that some may have come across that way to you... but a lot of things that are percieved... may or may not be truth.
Serena

[YusufNoor]

is it common .... or more likely that a new muslim is more often to forget all the prayers.... i mean being catholic..... its ( rough example... ) but.... forgetting some of the lower feast days.... is more common until you get used to .. again for lack of better words ... how things work....
Does that make them a sinner.. when they are trying when it is their intent to make every prayer but on occasion.. time does get away from them.

Serena

i'll be the first to admit on here i make mistakes as i have yet to take my shahada ... There may even be those who think that is a mistake.....
but I have never seen anyone on here who thinks they know everything about Islam or anything else. i'm sorry distressed that some may have come across that way to you... but a lot of things that are percieved... may or may not be truth.
Serena

:sl:

OK folks, the sister had a question. no need to stop arguing...:omg:

in addressing the 5 Pillars of Islam:

1 Shahada - declaration of faith and belief
2 Salat - prayer 5 times a day
3 Fasting- Saum IF you are able
4 Zakat - charity IF you have so much $$
5 Hajj - journey to Makka IF you can afford it

there's no IF next to Salat, ergo it is of extreme importance, non negotiable so to speak. THAT BEING SAID, you're not gonna be "pope" over night, remember?

always do your best and seek the assistance of Allah! those who struggle get extra reward!

and everyone here means well! :peace:

:wa:

[Woodrow]

The Shahadah makes a person a Muslim, but it takes a life time of Salah to be a Muslim.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Its not a religious duty of a Muslim to call anyone a Faasiq. Nor is it within our knowledge, whether our own Ibadah is anywhere near good enough to deserve forgiveness. Often people in need of advice are turned away very indirectly, when someone tell's them that due to their current position of not practicing acts of Ibadah; they have become Faasiq or Kaafir.

Islam teaches Muslims to encourage good and forbid evil; it doesn't teach us to throw hints towards people who may not be as practicing. People "naturally" have some sense of pride, which is elevated by their social reputation and status. Often this is a major fitna, which prevents them from being able to assist others, where others may require advice, understanding and knowledge.

For Ibadah, one must do this for the purpose of speaking to their creator. Its a chance to ask for forgiveness, guidance, blessings and support. Imagine being given the rare opportunity to get to meet and speak to someone very important (someone you've always wanted to meet). You may spend most of your time thinking of how to please that person, behave your best, dress as smart as possible, etc. Now what are the chances that you'll want to reschedule the meeting for another thirty odd years?

You neither need an appointment to speak to Allah, nor are you added to any waiting lists. In fact, you are booked five appointments daily for the rest of your life. Why waste that time doing something else?

If you are still reading this; Allah has given you a great blessing of sight and understanding. This isn't something everyone is gifted with, so one should be thankful for whatever he or she has.

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

Ibadah is a blessing, not a chore.

:wa:

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

Jazakum Allahu khair for your replies.

I'll present my views because I'm just trying to understand this a little more clearly as I find this something to be serious.

May Allah forgive me if I say anything out of ignorance but I would like to correct my ignorance.

Ok so I always believed that the Shahada and salaah go hand in hand and that one is invalid without the other. I say this because the shahada to me is the faith aspect of Islam, while salaah is the worship/practice aspect of islam and the greatest of practices. We proclaim the shahada on the basis and intent that we will follow it up with our practices. If you neglect your salaah, your deeds are invalid aren't they? Meaning whatever good you do, it is not counted. I understand that through Allah's mercy He would accept us just to believe in the shahada, but at the same time the difference between the Muslimeen and the kuffar is that we practice our faith rather than just believe in it...so what would be the point in believing something but not practicing it? I can't call someone a kaafir and I suppose I said what I said out of ignorance may allah forgive me...but isn't there some grievious punishment for one who neglects his salaah?

Sorry if I'm complicating things for myself :D Which I believe I am.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[أحمد]

:sl:

The Quran and Sunnah highlight criteria for Faith and Submission. Its not enough to say "I'm a Muslim (by name), so I don't have to practice or go through any trials". At the same time, practicing Islam isn't limited to Shahadah and Salah (although these are the first two pillars and of great importance). Other than the five pillars, Islam commands kindness, justice and understanding. Rasoolullah :saws1: is reported to have said that the one who fills his belly while his neighbour starves, isn't one of us. Another hadeeth states the importance of good character (morals).

As Islam is a complete perfect way of life; one mustn't forget that their themselves still in that life, which they haven't completed. So saying "I can call you a Faasiq, because I was once like you are now" doesn't encourage the seeker of advice towards good; it only encourages rebellion. We can see examples of this problem, but many times we fail to realise that the person we're speaking to isn't going to learn anything benefitial by being called a Faasiq". Yes, its a duty for every sane Muslim to pray, but you have to consider the difference between advising someone and pushing them away.

The Quran gives many examples, e.g. "And why should I not worship Him (Allah Alone) Who has created me and to Whom you shall be returned. " "Shall I take besides Him aliha (gods), if the Most Beneficent (Allah) intends me any harm, their intercession will be of no use for me whatsoever, nor can they save me? " "Then verily, I should be in plain error." "Verily! I have believed in your Lord, so listen to me!" It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise." He said: "Would that my people knew! "That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!"(36:22-27).

:wa:

[Muhaba]

Laziness isn't an excuse for not praying. I can't see how one can just not pray out of laziness, and i'm talking about the fard prayer and not nawafil, although one shouldn't be too lazy to not pray nawafil either. There must be an underlying reason for not praying. It may be that the person feels they won't be punished for not praying. Or they may not have enough belief in the aakhira, belief like as if you could see Hell with your eyes, and feel the hardness of the Day of Judgment? Because if one had such a belief then i doubt they would feel too lazy to pray. Allah says in the Holy Quran in Surah 102:

Surah 102 - Al Takathur THE PILING UP
102.001 The mutual rivalry for piling up (the good things of this world) diverts you (from the more serious things),
102.002 Until ye visit the graves.
102.003 But nay, ye soon shall know (the reality).
102.004 Again, ye soon shall know!
102.005 Nay, were ye to know with certainty of mind, (ye would beware!)
102.006 Ye shall certainly see Hell-Fire!
102.007 Again, ye shall see it with certainty of sight!
102.008 Then, shall ye be questioned that Day about the joy (ye indulged in!).

If people had the belief in hell as if they could see it right now, then they would never be too lazy for praying.

Also, in Surah 68, verses 42 - 44 it says:

42: The Day that the Shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to bow in adoration, but they shall not be able,-
43: Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).
44: Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message: by degrees shall We punish them from directions they perceive not.


So one should remember that not praying in this world will cause a disgrace in the next. Does anyone want that?

[جوري]

Laziness isn't an excuse for not praying.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.. One should seek refuge from laziness, I find it along with lying to be two of the most abhorrent traits!

[*charisma*]

Salaam

Its not as simple as that, if a muslim doesnt pray cos he doesnt belive its necessary, or not part of islam is known as a kaafir, but one who doesnt pray out of laziness...isnt, thats the way i see, it, and have been told. I dont pray, and i would be highly offended, if some1 called me a kaafir, i dont blame your friend. no1 has the right to call any1 a kaafir.

doesnt a muslim calling another person a kaafir, get taken out of the fold of islam themselves ? not sure if theres any truth on that.

Wa'alaikum Asalaam

My intent was not to call him a kaafir, and out of my own ignorance I attributed not praying to disbelief. My intent was to advise him and remind him the importance of salaah, and I did it in an awful way, I recognize this because if I were in his shoes I would feel the same.

When you care about the well being of a person and you try to advise them, even if it comes out wrong, it does not mean you're belittling them. You just would like the best for them and would like Allah to raise their status. In the end it is their choice, but we have to be a reminder to each other whether through word or practice. My mistake was in the way I said it, but if it were said in a better and correct I do not think it should be or would have been taken into offense inshallah.

Everyone struggles with some aspect of their faith and no one likes to be judged especially if they recognize their own faults and just need some kind of nudge, but if you openly sin you can't blame people for judging you or trying to help you correct your ways because this is something that is inevitable. In the end its between them and Allah but me personally, it's difficult to be around people who neglect their duties as Muslims, and I feel that I may be questioned for it if I do not say something or try to help them as much as I can. If they do not want my help that is ok too, but thats when they should let me know. I have my own faults to fix so I've never judged the iman of anyone that's for Allah solely to judge, but I don't neglect my duties as a fellow muslim either. We don't always know who's ignorant or who is neglectful, but today i have been reminded in how to spread dawah in the kindest and most efficient way possible alhemdulilah whilst searching for something else.

And going through this thread, I don't believe anyone was judging you inshallah, I hope you do not feel attacked because this forum was created in order to help eachother towards guidance not to judge one another, but at the same time we should not sugar coat our religion. Some things are just blunt and straight to the point as they should be, its how Islam remains easy and clear.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

The Quran and Sunnah highlight criteria for Faith and Submission. Its not enough to say "I'm a Muslim (by name), so I don't have to practice or go through any trials". At the same time, practicing Islam isn't limited to Shahadah and Salah (although these are the first two pillars and of great importance). Other than the five pillars, Islam commands kindness, justice and understanding. Rasoolullah is reported to have said that the one who fills his belly while his neighbour starves, isn't one of us. Another hadeeth states the importance of good character (morals).

However with the concern of not praying, isn't it true that despite whatever good you do, if you neglect your prayers, your deeds do not count. Or let's say there was a married couple, both who always pray their prayers, but then all of a sudden the husband stops praying, doesn't his wife's 3iddah begin unless he returns to his prayers? And in the case of two people who do not pray and decide to get married, isn't their marraige void?

[Muhaba]

^Good questions. i'd like to know the answers too. i read something on the seriousness of not praying, but don't remember much.

[distressed]

just as an addendum to the above. to judge is to be critical of someone, and I don't see how anyone can be critical of those they've never met? people are simply sharing definitions. Definitions don't necessarily have feelings of hope or disdain or anything else attached to them unless the individual chooses to elaborate on what those definitions conjure up in feelings. It is certainly not our place to inject that one must have a feeling of perfection or superiority or that of looking down on others simply for elaborating on a terminology! I could have for instance taken your 'good for you' as a caustic tone of biting sarcasm, but choose not to attribute such a hostile notion to something as innocuous as 'good for you' I choose to take it in good will. We see in others what we are in fact!

I aint even gona bother replying to you, in depth, i have the pleasure of working with people in the same field as you. + I know how things work on this board. save your psycho-analysis for everyone else, & I was being sarcastic, just as you were being back to me.

[distressed]

Its not a religious duty of a Muslim to call anyone a Faasiq. Nor is it within our knowledge, whether our own Ibadah is anywhere near good enough to deserve forgiveness. Often people in need of advice are turned away very indirectly, when someone tell's them that due to their current position of not practicing acts of Ibadah; they have become Faasiq or Kaafir.

So why do most people on here, think its ok to do just that ?

It wasnt long ago, that someone referred to me as a kaafir on this very forum ? (no1 has the right to call any1 that) funny really, cos even being so slack, i knew that was wrong. Isnt hurting another muslim feelings a sin, even if it is verbal ? I mite not have as much knowledge of islam as any of you guys, but at least i know how to speak to people with respect & I would never EVER refer to someone as that. Its not my place.

[distressed]

Assalamu Alaikum

I tried to advise someone about salah and told him that a muslim who doesn't pray is considered a kaafir, and he got really offended :x I didn't mean to offend him or relate him to a kaafir, but that's how he took it...he said the shahada is what makes them a Muslim..but how much is the shahada's weight compared to salaah?

and anyway, i thort you werent allowed to have male friends ? or was it a family member ? funny how no1 picked up on that ?

[Alpha Dude]

Look, sister distressed. You're just getting the wrong end of the straw and lashing out at people for no real reason.

Let's set this straight. It started with the whole fasiq thing.

Your first post in this thread:

Its not as simple as that, if a muslim doesnt pray cos he doesnt belive its necessary, or not part of islam is known as a kaafir, but one who doesnt pray out of laziness...isnt

My post, AGREEING with what you said:

This is correct. According to the majority of ulema, such a person would be considered fasiq, not kaafir.

Then serena asks what a fasiq is, to which I reply:

Serena, a faasiq is an open sinner/corrupt person.

And your reply to that:

corrupt ? just cos a person doesnt pray, doesnt automatically make them a corrupt person, that can mean loads of different things, they are disobedient to the faith, and sinning, your right, but hardly corrupt.

So here you are INCORRECTLY assuming I said fasiq is only related to those people who do not pray. I have repeatedly set straight in this thread, that this is not the case. Fasiq refers to a sinner, doing any major open sin. Not just missing prayers.

And there is nothing wrong with translating fasiq as corrupt - what else are you going to CLASSIFY* someone who does major sins as though it's nothing?

* And please be clear here, we're not talking about saying this to their faces or looking down on them. This is simply for the purposes of classifiying those ACTS that would make one a fasiq.

Put it into context: Major sins are liable for punishment in hell. If someone is doing something that is likely to take them to hell (if they don't change their ways) then what else except corrupt are they?

Someone sinning but realising he is sinning but still TRYING his best is a DIFFERENT MATTER ALTOGETHER and these people are not being referred to by me when I say fasiq.

So why do most people on here, think its ok to do just that ?

It wasnt long ago, that someone referred to me as a kaafir on this very forum ? (no1 has the right to call any1 that) funny really, cos even being so slack, i knew that was wrong. Isnt hurting another muslim feelings a sin, even if it is verbal ? I mite not have as much knowledge of islam as any of you guys, but at least i know how to speak to people with respect & I would never EVER refer to someone as that. Its not my place.

Right. So now just because SOMEONE on here said something wrong, apparently ALL the muslims here are one and the same? Is that how you see it?

Obviously, you can't brush everyone together. There are bad and confused people everywhere.

Nobody ought to look down on your lack of knowledge, nor think bad of you.

and anyway, i thort you werent allowed to have male friends ? or was it a family member ? funny how no1 picked up on that ?

We are told to beware of suspicion, make excuses and have a good opinion. In this case, it is perfectly plausible that she is referring to a family member and we have no reason to delve into this.

Please, you're just blowing this issue up for the sake of nothing. Read through this thread with a calm and OBJECTIVE mind.

[جوري]

I aint even gona bother replying to you, in depth, i have the pleasure of working with people in the same field as you. + I know how things work on this board. save your psycho-analysis for everyone else, & I was being sarcastic, just as you were being back to me.

I wasn't being sarcastic back to you-- there you again attributing your own folly and judgment unto others..
Thanks for not replying though-- it will save us both time and unnecessary lighthearted banter back and forth!


all the best

[GuestFellow]

It wasnt long ago, that someone referred to me as a kaafir on this very forum ? (no1 has the right to call any1 that) funny really, cos even being so slack, i knew that was wrong.

:sl:

Then you should complain to the moderator if someone accused you of being a kaffir.

[أحمد]

:sl:

Assalamu Alaikum



However with the concern of not praying, isn't it true that despite whatever good you do, if you neglect your prayers, your deeds do not count. Or let's say there was a married couple, both who always pray their prayers, but then all of a sudden the husband stops praying, doesn't his wife's 3iddah begin unless he returns to his prayers? And in the case of two people who do not pray and decide to get married, isn't their marraige void?

For someone who doesn't pray; their other deeds are useless in the Aakhirah. This doesn't change the fact that one should advise them towards prayer rather than trying to insult or humiliate them, which is proven to be unhelpful practically.

Anyone who missess any of his or her fara`idh on purpose; has committed an act of kufr. This appears in ahadeeth about those who doubt anything in the criteria of Shahadah, those who don't pray, and those who don't fast, or don't help the needy, etc.

Rasoolullah :saws1: is reported to have said that a sinner is not in the state of Iman while he is sinning.

Missing Salah is a sin.

However, Islam gives us instructions for life as a whole; its not limited to the Masjid. A Muslim isn't a Muslim, whose Iman is limited to the Masjid. E.g. Allah curses those who pray and show off, and those who refuse to help the needy.

:wa:

[أحمد]

:sl:

So why do most people on here, think its ok to do just that ?

It wasnt long ago, that someone referred to me as a kaafir on this very forum ? (no1 has the right to call any1 that) funny really, cos even being so slack, i knew that was wrong. Isnt hurting another muslim feelings a sin, even if it is verbal ? I mite not have as much knowledge of islam as any of you guys, but at least i know how to speak to people with respect & I would never EVER refer to someone as that. Its not my place.

We are all human beings, and are actually very good at making mistakes. This matter is one, where many people call each-other by a certain label; mostly without even realising they've done so. A person recently labelled much of the Muslim ummah as disbelievers unknowingly and quite indirectly. This problem mainly occurs due to people throwing rulings around without looking at the complete set of rules.

Islam teaches us to try giving advice; several examples are given in the Quran, and many in ahadeeth. If you see someone drinking alcohol; its better to inform them that the action of drinking alcohol is wrong, than to say "You were a Muslim who drank alcohol, so you became a kaafir...".

:wa:

[*charisma*]

edit

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[أحمد]

:sl:

Complete your lifetime of Ibadah, and then consider calling someone a Faasiq (only once you've attained al-Yaqeen).

:wa:

[جوري]

Complete your lifetime of Ibadah, and then consider calling someone a Faasiq (only once you've attained al-Yaqeen).

very true indeed.. Jazaka Allah khyran.. no one on this thread however was suggesting another Muslim a kaffir or a fasiq, rather a definition of what falls under those labels has been presented. We can't collectively be faulted for someone taking a definition personally.
What that echoes to me personally is anger with God and refusal to accept his commandments and judgment. Since we all know that judgment lies with Allah swt alone!

:w:

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum

:sl:

Complete your lifetime of Ibadah, and then consider calling someone a Faasiq (only once you've attained al-Yaqeen).

:wa:

Jazak allahu khair, in my case I had the right intention it just didn't come out right. I recongize my mistake and inshallah I won't commit it again. The purpose of my questions were for my own understanding and clarity about our deen, basically for the purpose of knowing what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and the rasul sallahu 3alahi wasalaam have taught us and not for the purpose or intention to label anyone with such terms. The more i know the more it helps my iman since I have fluctuations and would like to keep these as reminders to myself and during this process I understand the sensitivity of using these terms around others.

I hope inshallah no one else got offended, I sincerely apologize for what this thread has caused. Please forgive what has been said either from me or other members bi'idhnillah.

Barak allahu feek for your patience and assistance :D

fi Aman allah
w'salaam

[أحمد]

:sl:

To do justice to the title "Re: What makes a Muslim, Shahada or Salaah?"; the answer is given in the Quran and ahadeeth, as well as in explanations by mufassireen. The actions of a sinner are to be criticised, rather than the sinner, unless the sin get's to the point of harming others; either harming them physically, or their iman. Shahadah and Salah are only two of five pillars, of which its essential to perform as much of the actions of the pillars as one has the means and ability to do so.

What makes a Muslim a Muslim?

(2:1-5)
Alif, Lam, Meem.
This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -
Who believe in the unseen, establish prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them,
And who believe in what has been revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what was revealed before you, and of the Hereafter they are certain [in faith].
Those are upon [right] guidance from their Lord, and it is those who are the successful.

:wa: