Hi, I am considering Islam.

[potentialmuslim]

Hi, I am a white, educated Western guy starting to learn more and more about Islam after I have seen through the ridiculous stereotyping that exists in our media. I used to oppose Islam, without knowing much about it other than the stories of repression, wife-beating, 'sharia' law and terrorism that persist in the West. I decided to learn more and learn about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for myself and I see the beauty of the religion and how mislead we are about Islam. When I apply the same standards of criticism to my own society, I saw that my belief about Islam were misguided and caricatured. However, there are many things stopping me saying my Shahada, I am a rationalist (shame there aren't many Mu'tazili around!) and find the concept of faith difficult. I believe in a Creator through reason, not faith (cosmological argument and argument from design) - making the leap to accepting a revealed religion will be difficult. I am also a strong supporter of Israel, not necessarily its current policies but definitely in its right to exist - I know that puts me at odds with most Muslims, though not all (Sheikh Hadi Palazzi for instance). Anyway, whether or not I end up reverting or not, my views on Islam have been changed forever, I see its beautiful, reverential, peaceful tradition and I look forward to learning more here. Salaam.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Hi Potentialmuslim

Welcome to the forum, glad to see you have learnt the truth about Islaam and not some fake claims from the unknowledgeable and ignorant!

If you have any Questions regarding any issue feel free to ask here and we shall all try our very best to answer.

May you benefit yourself on this forum and also have a wonderful stay

Peace

[Misz_Muslimah]

Welcome to the forum!

[Dagless]

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[جوري]

:welcome: to the forum..

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

:welcome:

I hope you enjoy your time on this forum.

[aadil77]

Hi, I am a white, educated Western guy starting to learn more and more about Islam after I have seen through the ridiculous stereotyping that exists in our media. I used to oppose Islam, without knowing much about it other than the stories of repression, wife-beating, 'sharia' law and terrorism that persist in the West. I decided to learn more and learn about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for myself and I see the beauty of the religion and how mislead we are about Islam. When I apply the same standards of criticism to my own society, I saw that my belief about Islam were misguided and caricatured.

Hi and welcome to the forum, glad to here you've learnt some positive things about islam. Can I ask what is your religious background?

However, there are many things stopping me saying my Shahada, I am a rationalist (shame there aren't many Mu'tazili around!) and find the concept of faith difficult. I believe in a Creator through reason, not faith (cosmological argument and argument from design) - making the leap to accepting a revealed religion will be difficult.

Not a problem, islam requires you to use faith and reason/logic to accept certain beliefs. What I'd advise at this point is reading a english translation of the Quran, prefferebly by pickthall or yusuf ali, you'll see how the Al-Mighty will challenge you or make you ponder in certain verses. You can get a free translation from here http://www.idci.co.uk/home.php

I am also a strong supporter of Israel, not necessarily its current policies but definitely in its right to exist - I know that puts me at odds with most Muslims, though not all (Sheikh Hadi Palazzi for instance). Anyway, whether or not I end up reverting or not, my views on Islam have been changed forever, I see its beautiful, reverential, peaceful tradition and I look forward to learning more here. Salaam.

I hope then you also support the muslims over there having the right to exist

[YusufNoor]

Hi, I am a white, educated Western guy starting to learn more and more about Islam after I have seen through the ridiculous stereotyping that exists in our media. I used to oppose Islam, without knowing much about it other than the stories of repression, wife-beating, 'sharia' law and terrorism that persist in the West. I decided to learn more and learn about Islam and the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for myself and I see the beauty of the religion and how mislead we are about Islam. When I apply the same standards of criticism to my own society, I saw that my belief about Islam were misguided and caricatured. However, there are many things stopping me saying my Shahada, I am a rationalist (shame there aren't many Mu'tazili around!) and find the concept of faith difficult. I believe in a Creator through reason, not faith (cosmological argument and argument from design) - making the leap to accepting a revealed religion will be difficult. I am also a strong supporter of Israel, not necessarily its current policies but definitely in its right to exist - I know that puts me at odds with most Muslims, though not all (Sheikh Hadi Palazzi for instance). Anyway, whether or not I end up reverting or not, my views on Islam have been changed forever, I see its beautiful, reverential, peaceful tradition and I look forward to learning more here. Salaam.

as a uneducated western white guy who used to be a supporter of Israel, who held many opinions similar to yours, i guess i throw down the challenge to you in
regards to:

1) Tawhid. i would venture to say that TRUE Tawheed, is VERY rational and that ONLY TRUE Tawheed, as defined by Taheed Ar Rubbuubeeyah, Tawheed Al Asma wa Sifaat and Tawheed al Ibaadah makes perfect sense.

2) once you are convinced of a creator, does anything but Tawheed make sense, as any other option would leave you with creators.

3) not everything about the Mu'tazili IS rational.


for Tahweed, i recommend DR Bilal Philipès course on the Foundation of Islamic Studies found here:

http://www.islamiconlineuniversity.c...rses&Itemid=20

for learning about the Prophet, Peace be upon him, i recommend these lectures by Dr Bashar Shala:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...wi%20%28saw%29

and here:

http://www.pleasantviewschool.com/me...t%20%28pbuh%29

for Quran search, use this:

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html

for comparing Quran translations, use this:

http://quran.com/

what part of future Chinese satellite do you live in

:wa:

[PouringRain]

Welcome to the forum.

[Ramadhan]

Welcome to the forum, brother!

I hope you have and enjoyable and beneficial stay!
And may Allah SWT guide you to the straight path and give you strength to follow His guidance. Amiin

[GreyKode]

3) not everything about the Mu'tazili IS rational.

I have to agree here. On the surface the view of mu'tazila being strict afherents to rationality might be true. However, when you dig deeper I think the view of ahlusunnah wal jam'a makes the most sense (where you realize that certain things are beyond the realms of the mind or thinking although they don't contradict). This is only my personal humble view.

Faith will sink when your heart starts moving (in arabic Qalb), you need to undersatnd the language of the heart, this will isa(God willing) come eventually by practising the religion and reading the Qur'an

[Grace Seeker]

Hi, another "white, educated Western guy" here. Welcome.

[IAmZamzam]

However, there are many things stopping me saying my Shahada, I am a rationalist (shame there aren't many Mu'tazili around!) and find the concept of faith difficult. I believe in a Creator through reason, not faith (cosmological argument and argument from design) - making the leap to accepting a revealed religion will be difficult.

Why? The Koran makes those very same arguments itself. Is there anything specific in our doctrine that you find irrational or are you just one of those people who defines faith falsely as something inherently irrational itself?

I am also a strong supporter of Israel, not necessarily its current policies but definitely in its right to exist - I know that puts me at odds with most Muslims, though not all (Sheikh Hadi Palazzi for instance).

I'm at odds with other Muslims all the time, over many things. Chances are, whatever you believe in, you'll have some serious disagreements with other people who share your viewpoint. Islam is nothing special in that regard.

Anyway, whether or not I end up reverting or not, my views on Islam have been changed forever, I see its beautiful, reverential, peaceful tradition and I look forward to learning more here. Salaam.

Will you let me help you?

[potentialmuslim]

Hi and welcome to the forum, glad to here you've learnt some positive things about islam. Can I ask what is your religious background?

Atheist / agnostic. I was Christened as a formality but never taken to Church.

Not a problem, islam requires you to use faith and reason/logic to accept certain beliefs. What I'd advise at this point is reading a english translation of the Quran, prefferebly by pickthall or yusuf ali, you'll see how the Al-Mighty will challenge you or make you ponder in certain verses.

I have two copies, one a more traditional translation and another in more modern prose.

I hope then you also support the muslims over there having the right to exist

Certainly, though surrounding Arab countries could end their suffering by accepting the refugees into their lands.

[potentialmuslim]

1) Tawhid. i would venture to say that TRUE Tawheed, is VERY rational and that ONLY TRUE Tawheed, as defined by Taheed Ar Rubbuubeeyah, Tawheed Al Asma wa Sifaat and Tawheed al Ibaadah makes perfect sense.

2) once you are convinced of a creator, does anything but Tawheed make sense, as any other option would leave you with creators.

3) not everything about the Mu'tazili IS rational.

for Tahweed, i recommend DR Bilal Philipès course on the Foundation of Islamic Studies found here:

for learning about the Prophet, Peace be upon him, i recommend these lectures by Dr Bashar Shala:

Thank you for the information, I will take a look at those.

I am re-reading Karen Armstrong's book about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), it is a fascinating, honest and respectful book. This book is what made me forget my preconceptions about Islam.

what part of future Chinese satellite do you live in

lol, the UK

[potentialmuslim]

Why? The Koran makes those very same arguments itself. Is there anything specific in our doctrine that you find irrational or are you just one of those people who defines faith falsely as something inherently irrational itself?

Faith is inherently irrational, as it is not backed by evidence and we are dealing with something that is beyond our comprehension or understanding. Belief in a Creator is rational, but there is no evidence that can confirm one religion to be superior to any other. I think each religion is an attempt to encounter the Divine and some come closer than others - that is why there is "no compulsion" in Islam and also explains Surah 109.

I find Islam to be more rational than Christianity, strict monotheism is more rational than the confused and ill-defined concept of the Trinity.

I'm at odds with other Muslims all the time, over many things. Chances are, whatever you believe in, you'll have some serious disagreements with other people who share your viewpoint. Islam is nothing special in that regard.

Anti-Semitism

[potentialmuslim]

Sorry, posted before I finished my response

I'm at odds with other Muslims all the time, over many things. Chances are, whatever you believe in, you'll have some serious disagreements with other people who share your viewpoint. Islam is nothing special in that regard.

I understand what you are saying, but anti-semitism is a problem in Islam at the moment, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (Christian Europe was much worse for the Jews in history).

It is upsetting to see racial stereotypes about Jews from Europe being produced in Muslim coutntries. I suspect it is a political and cultural issue, but worry that it is a religious issue as Muslims are using the Qur'an to justify it.

[aadil77]

Sorry, posted before I finished my response

I understand what you are saying, but anti-semitism is a problem in Islam at the moment, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (Christian Europe was much worse for the Jews in history).

It is upsetting to see racial stereotypes about Jews from Europe being produced in Muslim coutntries. I suspect it is a political and cultural issue, but worry that it is a religious issue as Muslims are using the Qur'an to justify it.

True, but the Qur'an also differentiates between disobedient jews and jews who obeyed Allah's commands

and now a days muslims know the differences between zionist jews and non-zionist jews

[Woodrow]

Sorry, posted before I finished my response



I understand what you are saying, but anti-semitism is a problem in Islam at the moment, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (Christian Europe was much worse for the Jews in history).

It is upsetting to see racial stereotypes about Jews from Europe being produced in Muslim coutntries. I suspect it is a political and cultural issue, but worry that it is a religious issue as Muslims are using the Qur'an to justify it.

Welcome to the forums,

Most of us are not Jew haters. However we are very much haters of Zionism. What you often see being portrayed as anti-Semitism is anti-Zionism. We are not the only haters of Zionism, many Orthodox Jews also do. Zionism did not rear it's ugly head until the late 1800s and was not threat until 1947. Until the rise of Zionism there had been many centuries of peaceful co-existence between Muslims and Jews

[GuestFellow]

I understand what you are saying, but anti-semitism is a problem in Islam at the moment, though it is a relatively new phenomenon (Christian Europe was much worse for the Jews in history).

The treatment of the Jews in the Middle East from what I've heard, was a lot better than compared to Europe. In Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together peacefully.

It is upsetting to see racial stereotypes about Jews from Europe being produced in Muslim coutntries. I suspect it is a political and cultural issue,

Yes, many Muslims have failed to make a distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is a religion while Zionism is a nationalistic ideology. From orthodox Jews perspective, Zionism is not compatible with Judaism. There are many Muslims against Zionism, however this does not mean we hate Jews.

but worry that it is a religious issue as Muslims are using the Qur'an to justify it.

Do you have any verses in mind?

[جوري]

anti-semitism is a problem in Islam at the moment

I think perhaps using the term incorrectly.. a semite by definition
Sem·ite

noun
\ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\
Definition of SEMITE

1
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs b : a descendant of these peoples

2
: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language

So that indeed would render 20% of Muslims of middle eastern origin anti-themselves.. As br. Aadil said, there is a difference between practicing Jews and Zionist Jews. I work with two Hasidics who actually brought me kosher food during Ramadan to break my fast on.
undoubtedly the actions of the Israeli govt. and Zionists against Muslims is nothing to be condoned. And I'd venture to say that they're being anti-semitic given that only less than 5% of them are of middle eastern origin whereas the rest are immigrants (ashkanzic) European Jews.

socioeconomic and geopolitical situations in the world change, that isn't and shouldn't be a determinant to ones beliefs!

[Uthman]

Hi potentialmuslim,

Welcome to the forum. I'm pleased to hear that you're considering Islam. :) I'm also pleased to hear about your belief in the existence of a creator and designer (perhaps "God" is too loaded a term these days) and moreover, that you believe in this on a rational basis. I believe that the existence of a creator is completely intuitive, such that one doesn't actually need intellectual arguments to establish it. Consequently, everything points to it's existence, ranging from our own base intuition to the most complex of intellectual arguments. We appear to be living in a day and age where many people seem to depend on such arguments as cosmology, design and objective morality to establish something which I really think is a given. Given the intuitive nature of belief in the existence of a creator, I think this fact is rather unfortunate.

I noted with interest the following statement from your opening post:

I believe in a Creator through reason, not faith (cosmological argument and argument from design) - making the leap to accepting a revealed religion will be difficult.

You may be surprised to hear this, since it's likely that every experience you've had with religion tells you otherwise, but as Muslims, we believe that Non-Muslims can (and perhaps even should) believe in Islam based on reason and objective investigation. As you know, we believe that many Prophets came before Muhammad (:saws:) including Jesus (peace be upon him). What's more, we believe that all of these Prophets came with something extroardinary ("miracle" is probably another one of those terms which carries too many preconceptions), because of which people believed in them. This was explicitly stated in an authentic statement of the Prophet Muhammad (:saws:) wherein he said:

There has not been a single prophet except that Allah gave him miracles because of which people believed in him. I have been given the Inspiration (i.e., the Quran) as my miracle, which Allah revealed to me. I hope, therefore, that I will have the largest number of followers on the Day of Judgement.

Yes, you read correctly. We literally believe that the Qur'an is a miracle (which can most appropriately be defined as "an event which lies beyond the productive capacity of nature") and, furthermore, we believe that this can be assessed by objective standards. Why? Because the Qur'an itself, in several places, provides the criteria by which it boldly claims to be a revelation from the divine. One such place occurs in the second chapter of the Qur'an and reads as follows:

And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah [chapter] the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah , if you should be truthful. But if you do not - and you will never be able to - then fear the Fire, whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers. [2: 23-24]

The Qur'an is basically saying here, that if you are in doubt that this truly is a revelation from the creator, then you must produce a chapter like it and if you are unable to do so, then you should accept that this is indeed an inspiration from the divine. In academic terms, we would say that the Qur'an's claim to divine origin is falsifiable - if somebody is able to "produce a chapter like it" (and I will get on to exactly what this means in a moment), then the Qur'an's claim will have essentially been falsified. Note here that the shortest chapter in the Qur'an consists of just three verses.

But wait; isn't this challenge subjective? What does it mean by "a chapter like it"? How can we objectively judge whether a person has succeeded in "producing a chapter like it"? Has anybody tried in the past? What is so unique about the Qur'an anyway and what exactly makes it inimitable? If you're interested in finding out more, I'd point you towards this website which was set up by Hamza Andreas Tzortzis - one of many people who have converted to Islam on an intellectual basis and who now lies at the forefront of articulating the message of Islam and the rational arguments for it.

Finally, I want to point out that there are some Islamic scholars who believe that, to stand the test of time and still be relevant as a miracle in the 21st century, the Qur'an should also be a scientific miracle. I would argue that it certainly doesn't disappoint although I'll let you be the judge of that. One such scholar is Dr. Zakir Naik and you can access one of his recent lectures on the topic here.

Regards

[IAmZamzam]

potentialmuslim, faith is, when used by anyone other than the ignorant, no different in meaning in a religious context than a secular one, in which it means "trust with fidelity". I will admit that it was probably religious people misusing the term much more than disbelievers who have ruined it for the rest of us.

Perhaps this article of mine could help you.

[potentialmuslim]

Whilst the etymology of the term derives from "semite" (which as you point out is a broader group), "Anti-Semitism" as a term was coined in Germany to refer specifically to discrimination and violence towards Jews. Sadly, there is a great deal of anti-Semitism in the Muslim community, more than just anti-Zionism or opposition to Israeli policies.

[potentialmuslim]

potentialmuslim, faith is, when used by anyone other than the ignorant, no different in meaning in a religious context than a secular one, in which it means "trust with fidelity". I will admit that it was probably religious people misusing the term much more than disbelievers who have ruined it for the rest of us.

The problem is who and what to trust? Dawkins? Mohammed? Buddha? Jesus? The Torah? The Guru Granth Sahib? Socialism? The Qur'an? There are so many ideologies competing for our faith, it can be difficult from the outside to determine which to trust!

Perhaps this article of mine could help you.

That was very interesting, thank you.

[potentialmuslim]

The treatment of the Jews in the Middle East from what I've heard, was a lot better than compared to Europe. In Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together peacefully.

That is true, up until the last century.

Yes, many Muslims have failed to make a distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is a religion while Zionism is a nationalistic ideology. From orthodox Jews perspective, Zionism is not compatible with Judaism.

That is not true, some small sects within Orthodox Judaism oppose Zionism (Satmar and the Haredim) but most Orthodox Jews passionately support Zionism as a religious duty.

I know that some Muslims are Zionists though and they do support the Jewish people.

Do you have any verses in mind?

Various verses, often taken out of context - but it is worrying that such a prominent scholar as Yusuf al-Qaradawi indulges in this behaviour - weblink: timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5678764.ece

Also, I find Surah 62:6-8 quite troubling.

[Trumble]

The problem is who and what to trust? Dawkins? Mohammed? Buddha? Jesus? The Torah? The Guru Granth Sahib? Socialism? The Qur'an? There are so many ideologies competing for our faith, it can be difficult from the outside to determine which to trust!

Trust yourself! There are no guarantees.. if there were there would only be one religion. Read the teachings, listen to the debates, ask questions, consider the answers and go with what makes sense and feels right to you.

[جوري]

Anti-Semitism" as a term was coined in Germany to refer specifically to discrimination and violence towards Jews.

Indeed and those who coined the term are those responsible for the acts... be that as it may, Trumble has actually given you pretty sound advise.. the only thing I can add to that is for you to ask God with a sincere heart to guide you to the path of the righteous!

all the best

[potentialmuslim]

Thank you for the responses :)

[- Qatada -]

Allah said:

O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you.

O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself.

It was related by Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah).

[IAmZamzam]

This conversation has been dormant. How are you doing, potentialmuslim? Feeling all right? Any closer to embracing Islam? Anything I can help you with?