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lostman
11-22-2010, 10:40 AM
Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.
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جوري
11-22-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by lostman
Losing Faith - No... I mean lost it already
What are you hoping for by posting this? You can't solve queries/problems with the same mindset used to create them-- I'd say it is about time you were getting on with your life as for your psychosocial retardation, I am sure some group therapy will be beneficial not a public diatribe.

all the best
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Alpha Dude
11-22-2010, 06:59 PM
I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.
As long as you don't insult or mock the Islamic faith in your stay here and your intentions are to have a sincere conversation, then that's fine.

With regards to condemning you to hell - may Allah guide you to faith instead. Aameen.

We will be judged according to whether we die in a state of faith, so we Muslims should never take our own iman for granted in the first instance. No matter how much worship we do, if our last moment on Earth is a faithless one, we will be punished and our deeds would be worthless.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

You are only seeing this from one side. Perhaps your experience of Islam to date has been one where people have only been showing you to have fear of Allah but that is a totally incorrect approach. Yes, fear is necessary but at the same time, you need hope and love for Allah.

We can't always have total fear of Allah thinking that Allah will destroy us for the tiniest of things so that we are never able to have a moment's peace.

At the same time, however, we can't always have hope in Allah thinking that Allah will forgive anything and everything we do. We'd end up complacent and go on to commit sin after sin.

Balance is required. We take the middle and moderate path. Have hope in the mercy of Allah (Allah is All Merciful, All Compassionate afterall, these are his well known attributes) and at the same time, we fear his punishment. That way, we don't go astray either way.

If we commit a sin, it's not the end of the world. It's very important to not live in despair and fear. Allah has created us sinful in nature. It is natural that we will sin.

However, He wants us to seek sincere repentance and he will forgive us if we are genuine.

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.
He created us. We are to love him and to fear him for what he can do to us. Once again, balance.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)
Even the most ardent of Islamophobes don't deny that Prophet Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam existed.

If he didn't exist, who did write the Quran? Who united the many fractured Arab tribes and made them go on to conquer much of the known world? These early people went and risked their lives for the cause of Islam. If they did not, then there would be no Islam. So we can ascertain that something definitely possessed them to do what they did. What was it? A poem? A metaphor? Who would give their life for something that they were not sure of?

Regarding muslims fighting amongst each other - what exactly is your point? How does that affect the veracity/truthfullness if Islam?

We believe that there will always be strife and tribulation in this world. A fundamental tenet of the faith is the we will be tested. There is not going to be any everlasting utopia on this world.

Our time in this world is transitory. It lasts a day or part of a day of the 'real' time (of the hereafter). It's a worthless world, existing purely for the sake of a test.

We are told time and time again not to be materialistic people. Money doesn't mean anything if we are devoid of guidance. By contrast, being destitute and struggling for food whilst being content and thankful to Allah for the guidance he has given is priceless to us in the hereafter.

As to why there is such a split amongts Muslims - firstly, we believe in shaytan/iblees. An avowed enemy on to us. He will do anything in his power to mislead us.

Secondly, each person has his own nafs (dark inner desires) that he needs to overcome.

This explosive mix of shaytan whispering bad things into our hearts and corrupting us, coupled with our own inner desires which we need to overcome, lead us to do immoral things.

So it's understandable that there are divisions amongst Muslims. People for whatever reason, have behaved in a less than honorouable manner throughout our past and present and they will continue to do so.

HOWEVER, this is a reflection on them. NOT the Islamic faith.

Shaytan in his enmity to mankind will most definitely try to corrupt the true religion of Islam. It stands to reason, again, that you have such divisions then.

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?
Allah has informed us that he has created each human being in a state of fitrah. A clean slate. We get corrupted by our environment.

Allah tells us that truth stands clear from falsehood. So we have been created in such a way that we know what is right and wrong when it is presented to us. The issue is, will we act upon what we know to be right or go on the wrong?

For example, if you tell a person theft is wrong, that would stand clear to reason. In cases where people give in to it, it's not a matter of them not knowing it is wrong: they will do it because it feels good to them (e.g. stealing the latest iphone), despite having full awareness that it is wrong.

People give in to their dark desires. This is wrong and THIS is what Allah wants us to fight against. He has made us susceptible and weak. He has made us thirst for material comforts and pleasures. We need to fight them and it can be done if we:

(i) use our willpower
(ii) make dua! Seek guidance from and refuge in Allah from all evil.

We pray Surah Fatiha several times, with each of the five time daily prayers. This surah has a verse 'ihdinas siratul mustaqeem', which is a supplication, asking Allah to show us the correct path.

So despite all these temptations and problems we find, we need to show our servitude to Allah and seek help from him.

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?
Please set yourself straight: Ultimate control of everything belongs to Allah. Whatever control the people in this world have has been bestowed upon them by Allah as a gift. It is up to them how they use it. If they use it in a bad manner, they will be reckoned for it.

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create.
Wrong. We were made to worship Allah. Getting married and procreating is part and parcel of life and CAN be considered worship if and when the right formalities are observed and pure intentions kept.

I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?
This is nonsense. You simply wish to indulge in your inner desires without having to commit to anything. Walk in and walk out.

You are trying to degrade the status of man. We are RESPONSIBLE and have RESPONSIBILITIES. We don't live like animals. You might as well walk around naked if you think we are nothing but animals.

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.
Nikkah is a CONTRACT that is signed. When you sign up for one, you have rights and duties to fulfil and rights and duties to expect. For example, a man has the right that his wife provides for his sexual needs and a woman has the right granted by this contract that her husband provides food and shelter for her.

If a man cannot control his sexual desire, Islamic law has given him the ability to marry up to four women - in fact, it becomes wajib/near compulsory upon him to take on more wives if he is in fear of commiting adultery.

To be perfectly honest, I think your reasons are due to lack of Islamic knowledge and more related to side issues, rather than any dissatisfaction with the Islamic theology (how can you hate it when you don't even know the beauty of it yet).

First, kindly try to learn about Islam properly, before dismissing it.
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جوري
11-22-2010, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
This is nonsense.

That about sums it up.. I have to say Kudos to you that you took the time out for this-- I couldn't be bothered to dignify that much emotive drivel with a response.

:w:
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GuestFellow
11-22-2010, 07:15 PM
Losing Faith - No... I mean lost it already
Then what is the purpose of this topic?

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play? A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.
The contract protects the rights of women.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.
You should have been studying. There is nothing wrong with being shy. I'm shy and I use it to my advantage.

Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)
...Your point?

I personally have no energy to address your remaining points. You should study Islam properly. Find a book about Islam and read, from the basics to the advance.
Reply

أحمد
11-22-2010, 07:22 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by lostman
Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Fear. Fear. Fear.
Islam is a complete way of life, which takes us out of the mindset of slavery to and from others; we are only slaves of our creator. We have nothing to fear from any creature, nor fear death. We fear only our creator. This fear is unlike the "socially acceptable" cowardice, which we are taught by our "elders", "teachers" and "peers". If you love someone so much, that displeasing them is a fearful concept; you've come out of the limits of irrational fears. This is perfectly acceptable in reality; though it maybe unacceptable in the common social pyramids of thought.

You're only 20, and you "don't see the point of Islam anymore". This is a big step for someone who hasn't "been around" for very long; there're people who've lived for 70 years or more, which gave them a little more time to experience this dunyah. Even they haven't lived long enough to say they don't see the point of Islam, based on their few misconceptions taught to throughout a short lifetime. If you don't understand the point of something; simply ask. And no, we're not here to send people to hell.

You mentioned fear three times; giving it rather a unique importance above anything and all else. In fact, although we do fear Allah; this isn't all Islam is about. I'm sure if you studied enough to make a rational decision to leave Islam; you've already at least studied the Quran and a number of ahadeeth. Both of which explain much more to Islam than your post comes anywhere near to scrape.

If you have questions; ask. Don't take out your anger upon a religion, which you've failed to understand. By no means does this indicate no fault upon others influencing your way of thinking, or your misunderstanding of the deen.

:wa:
Reply

Woodrow
11-22-2010, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by lostman
Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.
:sl: Akhi,

Your thoughts and words are not unique. Many in your age group have experienced the same thought. But, you are one of the few to openly express them. I see that is a good sign as your are seeking verification of the validity or invalidity of your thoughts. Always seek verification of all things.

You do not have to even be a Muslim to have those thoughts. Many of us here came from other faiths or even no faiths. A good many of us felt very similar to the way you are feeling today and in different ways have said almost the very same words. But, we discovered Islam and found hope and promise of a future. We found our past beliefs and non-Beliefs were wrong and saw Islam as a bright guiding light that led us home.

Is it you do not believe in Islam or is it you no longer want to believe in Islam?

I see you as seeker looking for a way to justify your beliefs and in doing so you came herein anticipation we would condemn you and by that give you a reason to leave Islam. Sorry, to disappoint you. Mostof us here will do no more that let you know the door is always open for you to return home. but, if it is your desire to have your freedom out in the cold, so be it, that is your choice.

No matter what your choice is, make it out of knowledge and not personal desire.
Reply

lostman
11-23-2010, 03:42 AM
Thank you for your informative replies. The reason I am asking these questions on a forum is because understandably, a Maulana or elder would get easily offended if I asked these questions. Please do not take offense... I am seeking clarification for myself and get burning questions answered by people who may have an open mind.


Heres the thing...

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).

Also Bedouin:

Our time in this world is transitory. It lasts a day or part of a day of the 'real' time (of the hereafter). It's a worthless world, existing purely for the sake of a test.

We are told time and time again not to be materialistic people. Money doesn't mean anything if we are devoid of guidance. By contrast, being destitute and struggling for food whilst being content and thankful to Allah for the guidance he has given is priceless to us in the hereafter.
Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.

I agree, materialism is a terrible thing. But you are also assuming that having money means you are without guidance (and not just in a religious sense). Mind telling me why?

We can't always have total fear of Allah thinking that Allah will destroy us for the tiniest of things so that we are never able to have a moment's peace.

At the same time, however, we can't always have hope in Allah thinking that Allah will forgive anything and everything we do. We'd end up complacent and go on to commit sin after sin.
Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

Wrong. We were made to worship Allah. Getting married and procreating is part and parcel of life and CAN be considered worship if and when the right formalities are observed and pure intentions kept.
Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

This is nonsense. You simply wish to indulge in your inner desires without having to commit to anything. Walk in and walk out.

You are trying to degrade the status of man. We are RESPONSIBLE and have RESPONSIBILITIES. We don't live like animals. You might as well walk around naked if you think we are nothing but animals.
Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.
Reply

Dagless
11-23-2010, 04:07 AM
Firstly I find it odd you have come here to ask questions when you could have found most, if not all, of these answers elsewhere. The main one for me was your statement questioning the Prophet (pbuh) existed. There is so much evidence for this that even a simple google search could have put your doubts to rest... so again I wonder why you asked it here.

Originally Posted by lostman
You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).
What strength do you have other than that which you've been given? You didn't make yourself and you cannot save yourself. Even events are beyond your control despite your best efforts.

Originally Posted by lostman
Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.
History proves otherwise.

Originally Posted by lostman
Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?
The religion tells you the right way of doing something. It's like someone telling you not to touch a hot pan; you can obey or you can disobey, learn the hard way and get hurt in the process. Sleeping with many women outside of marriage is wrong. You can obey, or you can sleep around, try to work out how to support all the women, their children, treat them right, treat their families right, deal with jealousy, cheating, crack under the pressure, run out on your responsibility, etc. etc. You'll probably learn in the end, but it will be expensive. Not to mention the sins.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-23-2010, 04:31 AM
Hey there brothers....
That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.
are sisters not allowed to post in this thread?
Reply

Muslim Woman
11-23-2010, 04:50 AM
Salaam/Peace

Originally Posted by lostman
.... I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. .
a man asked permission from Prophet Muhammed pbuh to commit adultery . Prophet pbuh said , will u be happy if someone commits zina with your mother ? The man was shocked and answered, no.

Prophet pbuh again asked , what about if a man commits zina with your sis ?

Again the man said , no. Thus Prophet pbuh repeated the question regarding his wife , daughter and each time the man said , no . I won't tolerate if any man has such relationship with any of my female family members. He then understoon his mistake .

Now , bro , ask the same questions to yourself . What if ur mom tells u she does does not believe is marriage system and will have many sex partners ? Will u say it's ok ?
Reply

tigerkhan
11-23-2010, 08:22 AM
:sl:
i have read ur msg. i feel sampathy for u. to me its seems u are really LOST. ALLAH SWT keep mercy on U. i remember my one friend of college. we are firend in college and then we both join same university. in uni He goes on wrong side, drinking, sex etc etc...i feel for him and often i went to him but he was always very tough and rude to me. in 3rd year,one day i went to him and that what he say me; bro blv its is rite that "drink is base for every sin". he say i drink so much and thay y i dislike u that time and i dislike every good thing and my heart want to do every bad. but now i leave drinking and blv everything is going well.
so i just say bro if u are involved in Haram things, just stop.... i hope ALLAH SWT will fill ur heart with satisfation and all this confused and puzzeled state of ur mind will be removed.

2nd thing what i want to say, since ur just 20, growing stage. and it seems u had much effect of propoganda of west media on U, i suggest try to join some islamic forum and company. and i think u are not lost already bcz if so u dont post ur pbm here, there is something in u, its make u post ur pbm and worries about ur faith here. so keep it up with sincere intention to find the truth and my brotherly advise will be 1. leave haram things if its so, and learn about islam from soem one with knowledge and piouty.
sorry for weak english if u fell difficulty in understanding some lines.
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*charisma*
11-23-2010, 10:23 AM
Islam is not about doing things out of fear of Allah or refraining from things due to fearing Allah. Nor is it about paradise or hellfire. Islam is worshipping Allah and whether it is out of fear or love towards Allah is the individual's choice.

Originally Posted by lostman
Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.
This really makes no sense. If this world is a test how can you not need to strive for anything??

And no matter what path of life you choose buddy, you're going to have struggles, that's just life. Islam is a way of life that connects all the Muslims with the same guidance. There are people who aren't Muslim, living what appears to be a wonderful life, but they are not satisfied for whatever reason and on the other end there are Muslims who have very little and are completely satisifed with their lifestyle. It's all a matter of how you perceive your life no matter what religion you follow.


Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.
This is all going to come down to what is perceived as a sin. In Islam it's clear-cut what a sin is and what isn't, and by studying the previous nations, we know according to the Islamic definition of a sin, pre-Islam, people were sinners because they didn't have proper guidance. Furthermore, we are by nature sinners. However, if we wanted to look at it from your perspective, a sin in Islam may not seem like a sin at all to you. Yet in Islam everything is laid out and universal, so we know we're all on the same page. You don't need Allah to tell you stealing is bad, yet there are many thieves in the world, right? And how would you punish a thief? In America, a theif is a thief, no matter what he steals or his economic status, but in Islam Allah grants mercy to those who steal out of extreme necessity, ignorance, etc.

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?
There are logical reasons for this actually, even if you removed religious incentives. You just said people are influenced by the media, why do you have to be one of them? Personally, whether Muslim or not, I prefer not to give up my innocense and purity especially to a guy who only wants to play around. You don't know the true intention of a man or a woman unless they choose to remain chaste for each other, then choose marriage and lay it down on a paper, with dowry, public exposure, and plan a LIFE together because that is more stable than to go from one person on to the next. Otherwise, you're just playing around, testing the waters for your own ardent desire.

You didn't lose your faith, you're just lost--in general.
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'Abd Al-Maajid
11-23-2010, 11:02 AM
mad_scientist and I say: Don't feed the troll.
Reply

Alpha Dude
11-23-2010, 11:06 AM
Lostman, most of your points are nothing but philosophical musings. There is nothing objective that you say which disproves the theology.

It's fine to say 'this world being a test annoys me' but from that you can't go on to say 'therefore, Islam couldn't be real'. That's an absurd conclusion. As is your 'i have natural desires inside me and Islam doesn't let me have sex with whoever I want, therefore Islam isn't real' and 'Allah tells us to have fear of him, therefore Islam isn't real'.

This isn't a logical nor rational approach to take. All these points make no sense as a reason to leave Islam.

If you are sincere, you need to first look at the primary sources of Islam: The Qur'aan and the life of the Prophet and Messenger, Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam and evaluate whether it is possible for it to be true.

If we realise it is true, then we submit and accept everything that is mentioned and what you say becomes moot.

Originally Posted by lostman
You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).
We don't just attribute the existence of the universe to Allah willy nilly. We have ascertained that Allah exists in the first place. This we have done by reading the scriptures. If we can ascertain Allah exists then it stands to reason that we must obey and attribute strength to him. Why shouldn't we? It's the only logical step forward.

If you can prove Allah doesn't exist, only then you can say what you do here.

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.
Again, what you say here is another philosophical musing.

Is this supposed to be a reason for you to leave Islam?

First and foremost, disprove the theology. If you can do that, then what you say here can be accepted but till then, it means nothing.

I'll answer you all the same. Your assumption that we don't need to strive for anything is false. Muslims can strive for the world. They simply need to do things with the right intention. For example:
'I will become a brain surgeon so that people will have respect for me'
vs.
'I want to be a brain surgeon to help people for the sake of Allah'
'I want to be a lawyer because they get paid a lot and I could show off to others'
vs.
'I want to be a lawyer to help people for the sake of Allah'
Etc.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.

I agree, materialism is a terrible thing. But you are also assuming that having money means you are without guidance (and not just in a religious sense). Mind telling me why?
I meant having money without guidance only in a religious sense. The reasons for that ought to be obvious.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.
Sin is defined by Allah in the first place. Not believing in Allah itself constitutes a sin.

I suspect what you mean to ask is: "would everyone be immoral if it wasn't for Allah". I.e. the usual 'can there be morality without God' question.

I argue no, there cannot be any objective morality. What one person will consider a bad thing others will not.

You personally may not steal because you don't wish for such things to happen to youself but others may not hold such a mentality.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?
You degraded it when you said man and woman should go about having sex whenever they please, without any sort of commitment.

Think about this - animals do all sorts of weird things, like homosexual and incestous relations. So the people who have these weird feelings should also go about publicly doing these things? They shouldn't supress their 'feelings'?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?
Who said supress them? Just go about it the right way. I even said, if you have so much desire, Islam allows you to marry four different women.

Islam even rewards you for fulfulling your natural desires, as long as it is with a spouse of yours!

Once again, I will say: Please look at the PRIMARY SOURCES and try to figure out whether they are true of false. Stop musing over these issues. If you can prove Islam is false, then muse about all you want but till then, none of what you say here is a (logical) reason to leave Islam.
Reply

Amat Allah
11-23-2010, 11:32 AM
May Allah guide you and give you a speedy recovery and all people around the world...Ameeeeeeen
Reply

GuestFellow
11-23-2010, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by lostman

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.
Bash? We are just getting started. ^_^

On a serious note, some of us were outside the Islamic box for some time. I used to be agnostic and returned back to Islam.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).
I disagree. Why should not we seek help from our creator? Allah knows us best, and understands what makes us tick. Therefore, we should seek help from Allah. This does not mean Allah will get rid of our problems completely, we will have to put some effort into resolving our problems.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.
Yes, this world is not worthless. It will be of importance to the next generation. This world is temporary and we will not live forever. Becoming to attached to this world will mean nothing once we die. So, it is fine to be happy in this world but becoming too attached is not wise because we should aim to return back to Allah.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.
We all have a general idea of what is right and wrong. However, Muslims must take a step further. Allah has told us how we should live. This includes not to date, not to drink alcohol, not to engage in business transactions that involve interest (riba) and so on. There are some issues when it is difficult to determine whether something is right and wrong, and guidance is required. For example, whether a women should have an abortion or not will require guidance because this is a controversial issue and it is difficult to tell whether it is right or wrong.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?
It should be practiced within marriage because not to take advantage of women. How would you feel if random men used your female relatives or your daughter for sex? It is a natural desire that can harm yourself (STD) and women. We're just saying to practice this within marriage, geez. Yes, Allah told you its bad. That is the most important reason. :statisfie

Go ahead and trash yourself around like an eel to embrace your desires. It is your choice. :hiding:
Reply

أحمد
11-23-2010, 06:14 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by lostman
I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.
Just as you've got the right to reject Islam; we have the right to be Muslims. You've been given the opportunity to ask questions and clear your misconceptions, which isn't wise to waste by complaining that Muslims here haven't left Islam to "see things" from your view.

Secondly, there's been no incidences of harassment towards you. The need to play "victim" show's your lack of interest in knowledge, and more in ignorance.

If you have any questions; ask.

:wa:
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
11-23-2010, 07:48 PM
Aslaamu`alaaykum Lostman
Originally Posted by lostman
Hey there brothers.... .
and sisters also. . . .


Originally Posted by lostman
I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem..
Alhamdulilaah you have been "brought up" as a muslim, but you didnt even give your "brothers" salam, so im guessing you wasnt taught a lot regarding your faith, im i right?

Originally Posted by lostman
I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell..
Outrageous indeed!, we are not who decides who goes to hell but your "creator" who knows you more than ourselves!


Originally Posted by lostman
Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear. .


If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished. .
If there was no "fear.fear.fear" then we wouldnt stay away from the wrong stuff in life, maybe you should think about that, remember we have free will and its your choice weather you wish to do what "you" want by following your own desires, or what your creator wants, who knows you even more than yourself and knows what is good for you.


Originally Posted by lostman
The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?.
Is there wrong in "striving" to be perfect? or am i lost? Are you saying its okay to go kill people or take drugs? its okay, do you not realise that we belong to Allaah and we will return to Allaah? What kind of life is that where you live a life and then you die? ask yourself that, Death is reality, Allaah says in his noble book that "every soul shall taste death!", do you need proof for that aye? that is indeed a fact you cannot escape brother no matter what you say or try to do.


Originally Posted by lostman
Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living..
You should fear Allaah because when you are harming yourself, you are harming the creation of Allaah!, you should fear Allaah when you swear or do a bad thing you will be accountable for it on the day of Qayamah and not me nor anyone, we are all accountable for our own actions. you will be the one stood in front of your Lord on a day where only yourself (your actions/deeds, the asking of forgiveness, your sincerety)can help you. Life is worth living when you follow life the way it should be lived, which is living the way the creator has prescribed for you, ie. staying away from what which is forbidden(as in that can harm you) and doing that which is permissable (which is beneficial and good for you), you decide!

Originally Posted by lostman
Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control....
Other Islaamic books, can you name some inshaAllaah and explain how authentic they are? his "early followers" were those who lived with him, they were not some lies made up. i feel that you have been "brainwashed" by watching or listening to some anti-islamic stuff. The whole sect part you just mentioned such as "Sunni,shia, etc", it was prophesised that there shall be 73 sects and one sect will be of the correct path, and that is indeed the one which follows the Quraan and the Sunnah, that is a proof itself.

Originally Posted by lostman
The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there....
I dont get what any of this has to do with Islam! so it is indeed garbage.


Originally Posted by lostman
But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience. .
What has the controlling of media or channels got anything to do with Islaam brother? weather they are rich or poor, i dont understand your point inshaAllaah feel free to elaborate.

Originally Posted by lostman
Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind? .
Allaah SWT speaks about the Shaytaan and how he will misguide you in many ways. This whole list you mentioned about violence, perverted thoughts etc are indeed something that Shaytaan can trick man into doing. for example "homosexuality", Allaah your mercyful lord says he created us in pairs, female and male, not male and male or vice versa. This state of mind is something caused by the Shaytaan. maybe you should do some research or listen to lectures regarding the Shaytaan and what he can do! we as muslims seek refugee with Allaah by saying "Aazu billah hi mina`shaaytaan nirajeem" "I seek refugee with Allaah from Shaytaan the outcast".


Originally Posted by lostman
Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?.
Nope the media is not controlling us to fear God if thats what you mean :-\.

Originally Posted by lostman
And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.
Okay speaking of "perverted thoughts", you speak of doing stuff before marriage being okay but in reality it is which is wrong. You do realise that Islaam doesnt tell you to keep away from women??if you like women, islaam tells you to do it the correct way which is marriage and not lurking around going to a new women every day. It gives a person a right to be respected. How is it okay to be with a women and committing bad stuff all the time okay? what kinda of ugly life is this brother? These are just your personal views, and what you think are okay i guess, but in reality they are not. I think the brothers and sisters so far who have replied gave you great answers alhamdulilaah, since you asked the Questions you should think about learning something from them.

Feel free to ask any more Questions and i apologise if i sound harsh

wa alaaykum salaam
Reply

Ğħαrєєвαħ
11-23-2010, 08:18 PM
Aslaamu alaaykum

Originally Posted by lostman
Thank you for your informative replies. The reason I am asking these questions on a forum is because understandably, a Maulana or elder would get easily offended if I asked these questions. Please do not take offense... I am seeking clarification for myself and get burning questions answered by people who may have an open mind. .
Im sure they wouldnt get offended if you asked them Questions, but if you mentioned what "you" think it may have.


Originally Posted by lostman
Heres the thing...

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe). .
They are not "Beliefs" brother, they are "opinions", belief? you sound like coudnt care less about God and his religion, so i dont see what "belief" you are referring to. If you understood the concept of Life then you would understand about seeking God for help! There are times when one is indeed of help in life, when they are sad or depressed etc, we as muslims advice one to ask Allaah for help, the thing you dont realise is what in return we "recieve" help!. And keep in mind as muslims we are not only adviced to seek for help in our hard times but also to thank Allaah, to ask Allaah make it easy for those in need, such as the needy/poor/ill.

Originally Posted by lostman
Also Bedouin:

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about. .
The fact is that life is a test, and that you havent accepted that yet is reality. If you realise that there are people dying every second around this Dunya (world), there are people happy one day and sad the other, this life isnt all what we want, and realise that you wont achieve your Goal if you wanted to unless you worked hard as there maybe barriers preventing you from achieving that goal, because this is life not a game. I hope i am makin sense.

Originally Posted by lostman
I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second. .
Yes masha`Allaah i agree, every second is important, because we never when will be our last and final moment, when and how. As muslims we know that Allaah has the power to take our life when he wills as it is easy for him. We try to do all that pleases him untill our last breath for that last breath will be our final and after that there is nothing you can do!



Originally Posted by lostman
Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it..
There is a concept of "Fear, love and hope", this is how we see it. The fear is good as it stops you from doing wrong. For example in the west if you stole something or killed a person you would be punished for it, now if the person knew that he would be punished for it he would have never done it in the first place, do i make sense? So the fear isnt a bad type of fear but a good type of fear, its for your own good. We have parents to tell us whats good for us and whats bad for us, but if we disobey our parents, will that not make them upset/angry at you? Same concept is applied to God, but remember Allaah is the most forgiving the most mercyful , and i know this because Allaah refers to himself as this.


Originally Posted by lostman
Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.
As i explained above, same can be applied to this Question. Yes because "God" told you its bad, and you know it wont change anything from his kingdom, you can go freely do whatso ever you want out there, but remember your only harming your own self! God Allmighty is your creator and he knows whats good for you and whats bad for you, is it wrong for him to let you know? And yes we all have "desires" but we all have the ability to control ourselves, and not push ourselves to do it because its "natural" or "i feel like it" and not because "God" or "someone" told me so.

Wa alaaykum salaam
Reply

lostman
11-24-2010, 12:23 PM
OK... here's the problem I'm having now.

You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.

I didn't have time to read everybodies replies, but I'll get to it soon.

I will say this... I have studied persuasion for a very long time and I know that religion takes it to the very limit - IE. It uses every "trick" in the book.

Coming from a position of power, promising an "end" result, TELLING you what to do, how to do it, and actually THANKING the "creator" of it for giving you all these rules to abide by.

I don't want to do research because all I end up finding is Christian vs Islamic belief wars on the net. It's just so ridiculous.

I did read Muslima 4 Lifes comments... This is for you:

Is there wrong in "striving" to be perfect? or am i lost? Are you saying its okay to go kill people or take drugs? its okay, do you not realise that we belong to Allaah and we will return to Allaah? What kind of life is that where you live a life and then you die? ask yourself that, Death is reality, Allaah says in his noble book that "every soul shall taste death!", do you need proof for that aye? that is indeed a fact you cannot escape brother no matter what you say or try to do.
This is exactly what I'm talking about when you start assuming things about people who "are not on the path".

I never said any of those things... I don't have the motivation to kill someone, or take drugs because I don't have faith in following religion anymore. Read my comment above on "using Quran to "prove" Allah, and using Allah to prove the Quran."

Other Islaamic books, can you name some inshaAllaah and explain how authentic they are? his "early followers" were those who lived with him, they were not some lies made up. i feel that you have been "brainwashed" by watching or listening to some anti-islamic stuff. The whole sect part you just mentioned such as "Sunni,shia, etc", it was prophesised that there shall be 73 sects and one sect will be of the correct path, and that is indeed the one which follows the Quraan and the Sunnah, that is a proof itself.
I could say the same about you, sister.

My next comment will explain why I believe religion could easily be fabricated. Providing "authentic" proof could be fabricated as well as any other religious book to give more credibility to itself. I've never heard of the 73 sects prophecy, but everyone thinks their own path is the best, so how can you know for sure....?

Allaah SWT speaks about the Shaytaan and how he will misguide you in many ways. This whole list you mentioned about violence, perverted thoughts etc are indeed something that Shaytaan can trick man into doing. for example "homosexuality", Allaah your mercyful lord says he created us in pairs, female and male, not male and male or vice versa. This state of mind is something caused by the Shaytaan. maybe you should do some research or listen to lectures regarding the Shaytaan and what he can do! we as muslims seek refugee with Allaah by saying "Aazu billah hi mina`shaaytaan nirajeem" "I seek refugee with Allaah from Shaytaan the outcast".
The reason why I mentioned the influence of the media, is that you are attributing the "medias" power to shaytaan. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

That's also why I mentioned in my first post that, the same people perpetuating these perveted thoughts of feminism, demasculization, and homosexuality could in fact, have fabricated religion to keep you from making the most of this life (because you'll go to heaven afterwards, remember?).

So why...? Why do you believe that "shaytaan" is trying to persuade you to do the wrong thing, when in fact it's really a "higher" form of control (psychological) from the elite forces of this planet?

That's another topic for another day - but think about it. And I mean THINK!!!

By the way, it's been "prophesized" by the Quran, that men will become more feminine, while women become more masculine, right?

And who's making **** sure that happens?

Think about it...

Think...

THE MEDIA!

Be back soon...
Reply

جوري
11-24-2010, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by lostman
You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.

No one uses the Quran to prove that God exists-- you build pages of buffoonery entirely on false assumptions that you have created in your mind and believe and expect that others carry on from your very faulty premise-- it bewilders me more that others are actually responding to your foolish nonsense as if it holds any merit !.. Abraham and Moses (p) along with all the other messengers and sages didn't have any books to rely on to believe in God. The logic people use to disbelief in God is the same one others use to find God.


To be frank I think it is better to lose someone like you than cater to your absurdities as if you at all matter, that is if you are indeed what you allege we gain far better Muslims wal7mdlillah.. I say good riddance!

____________________
p.s beyond references to literature I recommend that no one else responds to this fellow..

:w:
Reply

lostman
11-25-2010, 02:20 AM
Thanks brothers and sisters.

Sigh.

I'm done with it. I just thought that maybe someone would refrain from telling me about what they read in the holy book, and reply to my "nonsense" with fair statements to make me see another point of view.

The logic people use to disbelief in God is the same one others use to find God.
Exactly.

So that would mean you have to consider both sides of the coin.

Where is the (historical or scientific) proof that the moon was ever split? Where is the "scientific" proof that Islam holds so dear? Why does Islam say that semen is created in the backbone (as I recall - correct me if i'm wrong, it was something ridiculous like that), why is it that the elite have the power that you attribute to the media?

It's questions like this that people start to throw quotes at me to decipher because they cannot be truly proven.

I could go up into a mountain, write a massive book, write tales of my believers following and reaping the benefits of my new religion, and make straw man scientific claims and act like it's the new word of god....

If you are aware of your environment, this is exactly what is happening with the "new age" movement today... They have manipulated the information on quantum physics and made it seem all scientific and viable when really, it's just using the law of attraction, which I believe only happens because you worked towards something you wanted.

Whatever floats your boat.

Stay under control. They don't want you to wake up. You have no power without God. You are nothing in this world. You'll get 70 virgins later... be good... not bad... God created the universe just to "test" you... I almost forgot, you can drink wine in heaven too...

My username is LostMan. But I am not "lost" in life. I know what I want, and I'm going to get it one way or another and I'm working diligently to get there. I "prayed" when I was young to help me be "normal", and fit in with the other kids... but nothing ever happened. You can say "ohhhh but it's a test" all you want. But the fact is, Islam has done nothing for me... It's made me wierd, caused me heartaches, and it's tough to deprogram yourself out of that fear based mentality.

My mother still has that type of thinking. She will always try to instil fear of Allah, yet I never ever saw tangible effects of praying, achieving "peace", or having my prayers answered...
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-25-2010, 02:35 AM
oh cut out the drama and emotional blackmail.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2010, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by lostman

Sigh.
There there..

I'm done with it.
Then why are you still here?
I just thought that maybe someone would refrain from telling me about what they read in the holy book, and reply to my "nonsense" with fair statements to make me see another point of view.
I don't think you are willing to read anything.. it seems you have already made up your mind that you know everything and in such a case you are not only wasting your time.. worse yet you are wasting ours!



Exactly.
Indeed
So that would mean you have to consider both sides of the coin.
Absolutely!
Where is the (historical or scientific) proof that the moon was ever split?
here is an independent eye witness amongst others:
2- Chakrawati Farmas, King of Malabar in India, WITNESSED the splitting of the moon!

The following link was given to me by brother Karim, who is one of the site's authors; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

From http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html:

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”
The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.
The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, Surah Al-Qamar (54), Verses 1-3:

The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain.
And if they behold a portent they turn away and say:
Prolonged illusion.
They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts.
Yet everything will come to a decision.
According to Maududi, the traditionists and commentators have agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra (migration) to Madinah.
The Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers (in Makkah) one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined. This was a manifest proof of the truth that the system of the universe was neither eternal nor immortal, it could be disrupted.
This incident indicated that huge stars and planets could split asunder, disintegrate, collide with each other, and everything that had been described in the Qur'an on the Resurrection could happen. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) invited the people's attention to this event only with this object in view and asked them to mark it and be a witness to it. But the disbelievers described it as a magical illusion and persisted in their denial. They were reproached in Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) for their stubbornness.
Other Relevant Notes:
It is due to this incident about their king, the people of Malabar became the first community in India to accept Islam. Subsequently, they increased their trade with Arabs, as the Arab ships used to pass by their shores on the way to China before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Malabar also had a Christian community dating back from the earliest followers of Prophet Jesus ('Isa), pbuh. St. Thomas is believed to have migrated to India and died there. This community remained untouched by later theological developments in Christianity until the arrival of Portugese traveler Vasco da Gama.
When the British were consolidating their stronghold in India, they deployed the largest naval operation (on the shores of India) against the Muslims of Malabar




Question is how is the splitting of the moon relevant to your argument, it was meant as a miracle to the people of its time. Our beliefs as Muslims aren't contingent on whether the moon was split or not.



Where is the "scientific" proof that Islam holds so dear? Why does Islam say that semen is created in the backbone (as I recall - correct me if i'm wrong, it was something ridiculous like that), why is it that the elite have the power that you attribute to the media?
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...tml#post565501 (Question about a verse from the Qur'an)

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
To quote IslamToday fatwâ committee: It is inconceivable that the true word of Allah could ever contradict scientific fact, since the universe is Allah's creation, and Allah fully knows what He created. A Muslim, when faced with what appears to be a contradiction between the Qur’ân and a scientific fact knows there can only be two possibilities: 1. That which is being construed as a scientific “fact” is not in actuality a fact. 2. The verse that is being construed as being in conflict with science is being misinterpreted, misapplied, or misunderstood. Any claim being made that there is a contradiction between science and the Qur’ân has to be evaluated individually. The factuality of the scientific claim needs to be assessed as well as the true meaning of the verse that is supposedly at variance with it. It is an inarguable fact that sperm is created in the testicles. Therefore, we must make sure we are understanding these verses correctly. We must look carefully at the verses to ascertain exactly what the Qur’ân is saying and – more importantly – what it is not saying. There are some serious problems with this translation and the assumptions made therein. To begin with, these verses say nothing whatsoever about the creation of sperm or the creation of anything else. Consequently, they do not inform us of where the creation of sperm takes place. They merely say that the substances under discussion come out form the places being described. The word being used is “yakhruj” meaning “to exit, leave, come out, emerge”. It in no way implies anything related to creation or origination. Secondly, the phrase “mâ’ dâfiq” (emitted fluid) is not restricted in meaning to sperm but is used in Arabic for both the sperm and the egg. Ibn Kathîr, in his commentary on this verse, writes: “It emanates from the man and the woman, and with Allah’s permission, the child comes forth as a product of both.” Thirdly, the words translated as “backbone” (sulb) and “ribs” (tarâ’ib) are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the “sulb” to refer to a part of the male body and the “tarâ’ib” to a part of the female. Ibn Kathîr states: “It refers to the ‘sulb’ of the man and the ‘tarâ’ib’ of the woman, which is the area of her chest.” He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet’s companion Ibn `Abbâs. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur’anic commentary. Moreover, the word “sulb” should not necessarily be translated as “backbone”. This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Prohibited to you (for marriage) are…wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins. Likewise, when we look at the word being translated as “ribs” (tarâ’ib, the plural of tarîbah) we find that it is used linguistically for the general are of the chest and the abdomen. In al-Qâmûs, the famous classical dictionary of al-Fayrûzabâdî it is defined as a number of things: “the bones of the chest or what comes after the two collarbones or what comes between the collarbones and the chest or the four ribs to the right of the chest or the four ribs to the left of the chest or the hands, eyes and feet or the collarbones.” Some Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and some Successors had also provided many possible meanings, like the lower ribs and al-Dahhâk’s statement that it is the area between the breasts and feet and the eyes (a mere indication of centrality). This word clearly has a very broad and diverse definition. It is so ambiguous a word that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) could not give it a precise definition. Scholars of Qur’ânic commentary have consistently admitted to there being at least three different possible meanings for this word as it is used in the verse. This is an admission that they do not know for certain what the tarâ’ib are, except that they generally agree it refers to an area of the woman’s body. It can apply to any region nearing the ribcage. Therefore, the area of the ovaries, the fallopian tubes, or the uterus can easily fit into the general area that is being indicated by these verses. What we are dealing with here is a gross error in translation and not a scientific error at all. This should answer your question. It should be noted that there are other explanations and interpretations of these verses that Muslim writers and scholars have proposed, of which we have quoted some here: http://www.islamicboard.com/152142-post6.html As for your studies on Islam, we highly encourage you make use of the excellent resources listed here: http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...resources.html (Studying Islam - List of Resources) If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. Regards





It's questions like this that people start to throw quotes at me to decipher because they cannot be truly proven.
how is this relevant?
I could go up into a mountain, write a massive book, write tales of my believers following and reaping the benefits of my new religion, and make straw man scientific claims and act like it's the new word of god....
If it were as simple as your simpleton mind Islam wouldn't be the fastest growing religion and one for the most brilliant minds in their fields. In fact I think it would be a shame for someone like you to have a label of Muslim. For Islam it truly a thinking man's religion.
If you are aware of your environment, this is exactly what is happening with the "new age" movement today... They have manipulated the information on quantum physics and made it seem all scientific and viable when really, it's just using the law of attraction, which I believe only happens because you worked towards something you wanted.
Successive Muslim empires that have enchanted conquered and conqueror alike says different. Neither history, no science, nor exegesis nor common sense are on your side, the more you babble the more platitudes of the sophomoric sort you spew -- it is fortunate that I don't have enough time to waste on you because I could truly squish your pubertal ideology as I would a bug.
Whatever floats your boat.
Whatever floats yours.
Stay under control.
as opposed to what? for someone who is so free you seem to be spending an awful great deal of time on a religious forum?
They don't want you to wake up
Who are they?
. You have no power without God. You are nothing in this world. You'll get 70 virgins later...
How many w hores have you been through to speak of an eternal life of which you have positively no knowledge?
be good... not bad... God created the universe just to "test" you... I almost forgot, you can drink wine in heaven too...
is there a question somewhere in there?
My username is LostMan. But I am not "lost" in life. I know what I want, and I'm going to get it one way or another and I'm working diligently to get there.
Good for you new found man.

I "prayed" when I was young to help me be "normal", and fit in with the other kids... but nothing ever happened. You can say "ohhhh but it's a test" all you want. But the fact is, Islam has done nothing for me... It's made me wierd, caused me heartaches, and it's tough to deprogram yourself out of that fear based mentality.
I have no desire to tell you anything at all as a matter of fact I don't think anyone can lead anyone aright.. Abraham (p) would have done so with his father, Noah with his son, prophet Muhammad with his beloved uncle.. houda is something bestowed on the righteous, the one pure of heart:

18:17------ He whom God guides, he alone has found the right way; whereas for him whom He lets go astray thou canst never find any protector who would point out the right way. -

My mother still has that type of thinking. She will always try to instil fear of Allah, yet I never ever saw tangible effects of praying, achieving "peace", or having my prayers answered...
What type of thinking, and what does this have to do with any of us? you've a very sheltered, extremely under-educated and very obtuse view of others, religion/philosophy and generally the universe around you. In fact I hope you've found peace by whatever means you've decided for yourself. Your experience is yours alone, stop baiting others and ingratiating yourself with some concocted sob story and ill defined questions and faulty premises to somehow feed into the attention you so crave.. let me tell you a good way to get fame and fortune in this world.. write an anti-Islamic book and hang with like minded individuals.. being amongst Muslims isn't going to cater to those needs that you desire fulfilled.


all the best
Reply

lostman
11-25-2010, 03:49 AM
Don't know why the poster after you started the personal attacks. I'm not going to reply to that.

I guess it's harder to explain my thoughts on religion because I've studied control structures and persuasion and can see right through it. It IS made to control you and obey authority (good or bad).

"Authority" can come in many forms. But the worst is subliminally, and the psychological effects of it. You can see it allegorized in the media today...

Heck I'm pretty sure most of us have seen "Alladdin" right?

Why don't you try breaking words down and giving different meanings to things... for example... Allah + Dinn (jinn)....

And then:

what happens when he RUBS the LAMP? (yes... im talking dirty undertones). Lamp also has the definition of "light" as given to "god".

There is a GENIE that appears. Genie also has it's roots in GENE (creation, which = 3 wishes)...


I could go on and on with different examples of manipulation... but I feel that most people won't understand these kinds of psychological effects (because it seems minimal), but it adds up over many years from different sources.

I'm tired now, I'll be back later to finish this post... But if you're interested in how I come to these kinds of conclusions, look up Dr Phil Valentine.

Religion is about structuring a feeling to make you feel better about yourself. The heaven/hell or Push/pull tactics in the holy book is very transparent when you educate yourself on facts rather than following the herd and try to justify it by any means necessary.
Reply

*charisma*
11-25-2010, 04:27 AM
Wow, are you serious??

Aladdin is not even pronounced that way in arabic. In arabic its 3ala' 2adeen.
3alaa'- the highest
adeen- of faith

nonArabs can't even pronounce that so it comes out as Aladdin, which sounds NOTHING like Allah and jinn, and what point are you trying to make if it's Allah + jinn? Allah is the creator of jinn sooo..?


And no duh, we're supposed to be obedient to our creater, that's why it's called ISLAM. We submit to him through whatever reason, there is really nothing subliminal about it. Athiests have come to Islam so whatever philisophical psychological arguments you're trying to spur up are completely useless honestly, people aren't muslim out of following "the herd" they're Muslims by individualistic choice. You should educate yourself about the facts and don't worry about us. It shouldn't kill you just because there are people there who enjoy their life being Muslims, it's really pathetic.
Reply

Tyrion
11-25-2010, 04:47 AM
Originally Posted by abdulmājid
Don't feed the troll.


Everybody, think of the kittens before you post. Please. :(
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-25-2010, 05:27 AM
Im not exactly sure what the point of this thread is. Are you asking genuine questions or coming here for a fight? Do you actually care to save your faith or are you just here to tell us what close minded people we are. We've had many people try do that here and we take no notice so no need to waste your energy because we will happily stay closed minded.


Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.
Not completely true. Even in your following sentence you practically state it isn’t the case...unless you think reward is a type of punishment.


If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.
isn’t that how everything is life works? Go to school, study well enough get a good grade (reward), go to school, dont study well, get a bad grade (punishment).

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?
1. God created us to worship so it only makes sense we get punished and rewarded for the right and wrong we do.
2. we also strive to be perfect so that we get rewarded.

Everything requires a time and place so to speak. Sometimes you will be in situations that will require you to strive for the reward. Other times you will be in a situation were you have to think of the fear..But i know you will take what you want from my post and ignore the reward part and only bother to take into consideration the punishment part.


Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.
im not following your point here. Are you suggesting we are animals?


Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)
Some thoughts: which way are you approaching your belief/lack thereof? You have mentioned science and history in your post which makes me think you deem these 2 topics as important to determine your belief in Islam or not. Correct me if im wrong.

So if my assumption is correct:
No one said that in Islam you need historical proofs, or that you need science to prove faith. Islam has never made these 2 a foundation for accepting or rejecting faith. You are judging something based on an assumption that has no basis to it. Do you therefore, think it is right to accept or reject something based on an assumption which no-one and nothing has deemed relevant to accepting or rejecting it. Does that truly make any sense to you?

Why disregard Islam for something that isn’t even required in order for you to belive in to begin with?

belief (any belief for that matter) requires something called’ faith’ and if you lack that (faith), then what’s it got to do with Islam? thats your own problem.

What the problem is with people like you , is that you dont understand the concept of faith. you dont realize what this term truly means and how the implementation of this concept will affect what you choose to reject or accept (whether it has something to do with a set of beliefs or otherwise).

Alot iof people fall into this problem where they believe that Islam has to have some type of scientific proof to it, but who said it does? Often people reject Islam based on their own (mis)understandings and assumptions despite the fact that such complications are not even needed or required to understand Islam.

their whole methodology of approaching Islam and trying to understand is incorrect, and therefore their results are also incorrect which leads them to easily rejecting it which is a shame because if only they approached things differently, then the result could also be very different.

Thats your problem...your yardstick to measure to measure the authentically of Islam is thought history and science, however as mentioned, no-one said that you need this to determine your faith.

Although science and history, etc can sometimes contain things which conform to Islam (notice how i say "[...] which conform to Islam" and not "which Islam conforms to them") it should not be used as a yardstick to determine whether we believe or not simply because the acceptance of Islam (or my other religion) is about having ‘faith’ and whether there is physical proof which is harmonies with it, then it doesn’t matter because it isn’t really all that relevant to begin with.

Even atheism requires some degree of faith.
--------
to further see how ludicrous the above approach is, Lets pretend that believing in Islam did indeed depend on historical and scientific facts. No one knows who wrote the history books, i.e no-one can trace their authenticity down. Thus, how do we know they are reliable ?

also the dependence on using History (or science) may be deemed as necessary in one day/age/time/place whilst in another day/age/time/place, it wont be. The plain fact that it maybe disregarded and seen as unnecessary in at some points in times and necessary in other points in time doesn’t really show that it is really a basis to determine the acceptance or rejection of something.

How does that make sense and how does that reflect on the authenticity on something. If anything, it shows loopholes.

That is the purity of Islam and the fact that it isn’t based on people’s opinions, is what has kept it pure and free of distortion and idiocy. Imagine if any odd Joe puts their opinion about Islam across. What a joke.

Btw “day and age” is just an example I’ve used.

Science as well will prove to be difficult to determine faith. Science changes and new discoveries are made all the time, negating/alerting old ones and bringing new ones into light. How can something of this nature be used to determine our belief...our belief which will make us enter heaven or hell. It just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

Im sorry, i just dont see How science and history which often changes be use to establish justice.


And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?
No. Everyone has to conform to something at some point in their lives, does that mean and entail that they are being controlled? By me living in this land (non-Muslim) does that mean that since im a citizen and therefore have to abide by the law...well yes does that mean that the law controls me? And if for some reason i choose to break that law, should i not be fearful of the punishment i may receive from the law enforced? And i dont break that law, and therefore have no punishment to my name, does that mean im also controlled?

Why am i considered to be controlled when im only breaking the law. Why aren’t i considered to be controlled when i dont break the law and therefore live a good happy life??

It doesn’t make sense. just because something doesn’t go my way, i therefore should consider that this controlling? Dont you think that thats an over simplification...dont you think that the term controlling is abit out of context and not really all that relevant to your argument.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2010, 05:30 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Don't feed the troll.
I don't get it either--same junk from the same cesspool frequented by all those 'free thinkers' whose two cells are held by a spirochete, refuted to a pulp, he later focuses on some axillary comment when in actuality he's not looking for any form of logical or scholarly discussion and yet people come here feeding him and anticipating his micturate and all too frequent dropping!
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-25-2010, 05:33 AM
You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.
What else are we supposed to use? The problem isn't with what is being uses to prove what but YOUR LACK OF FAITH.

I will say this... I have studied persuasion for a very long time and I know that religion takes it to the very limit - IE. It uses every "trick" in the book.
I disagree with you because i have been in a similar position (completely unrelated though) from these types of experiences, i have come to realize that you take any one thing (any thing) and it can have several meanings to it depending if you have been taught that thing to be good (or bad) then that is what it’s going to be. sometimes the case is, is that one thing can have several interpretations on it, and it isn’t necessarily that thing that is bad itself but your (lack of) knowledge and other factors will impact the way you view that particular thing.

So in all honesty (and with due respect) i think you might be a bit over thinking and blowing things out of proportion. I know this because I’ve been there myself.


Coming from a position of power, promising an "end" result, TELLING you what to do, how to do it, and actually THANKING the "creator" of it for giving you all these rules to abide by.
And even if persuasion is used, so what? We are put on this earth to worship god, then in the end we will die and either go to heaven or hell. How else will we be motivated towards good if it weren’t for paradise and how else would we want to stay away from hell if it weren't for fear.
Reply

lostman
11-25-2010, 06:58 AM
OK... I'm not trying to troll the forum.

I agree that my points can seem pretty unrelated. I've justified my thinking in more ways than I can possibly explain in a short time.

As for the persuasion comment. That's how cults form.... Usually the "smartest" type of people fall for them because there has to be a REASON for everything. IE. That's why there is a push/pull element of heaven vs hell.

Not going to go in depth into that, because persuasion has to be studied carefully over many years.

It just seems silly to me. You either see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy, or from the outside where it seems so far removed from reality.

I do believe in the soul, and an ultimate creator. Just not the way any religion sees it. (keeping tabs on insignificant people on a dot somewhere in the universe).

I had a very spiritual experience last year which lead me to study all these different schools of thought. I experienced what some might call "astral projection".

If you do some research you might think that it's satanic or haram. Those are typical replies to something that seems impossible... yet it is VERY possible. If you go back far enough in time you'll find the ancient cultures (BTW, I don't know why Islam claims to be ancient when it is AD) having knowledge that allowed their souls to leave their bodies and have a recollection of the experience after becoming aware in a physical state (the body).

Did anyone look up Dr Phil Valentines videos? He can articulate far better than me.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
11-25-2010, 07:52 AM
As for the persuasion comment. That's how cults form.... Usually the "smartest" type of people fall for them because there has to be a REASON for everything. IE. That's why there is a push/pull element of heaven vs hell.
this is ridiculous.

Not going to go in depth into that, because persuasion has to be studied carefully over many years.
why becuase you know its the truth? nice way to bail out.

You either see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy, or from the outside where it seems so far removed from reality.
or you see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy becuase your heart is truly guided.
or you see it form the outside where it seems so far removed from reality becuase you are paranoid and blowing things out of proportion and seem to live your life by theories (as opposed to reality).

the same way our beliefs are supposedly insane, then there is no reason why that cant be reciprocated onto you.

just becuase you have studied whatever you have studied it doesn't make your argument to disprove Islam any better.

besides your persuasion thoery makes no sense in the real world anyway. people with ill intentions don't follow through with their promise of reward. they like to (and indeed do) deceive. someone who truly has an evil intent doesn't care for those who follow them. they just care about their own good end. Allah does follow through with his reward.
eg we know that in this world those who give up something for the sake of Allah have been promised something better...and there are many stories from all sorts of people who can bear witness to that.

the only thing your persuasion thoery proves and hold true for, is probably Satan.
Reply

lostman
11-25-2010, 08:28 AM
besides your persuasion thoery makes no sense in the real world anyway. people with ill intentions don't follow through with their promise of reward. they like to (and indeed do) deceive. someone who truly has an evil intent doesn't care for those who follow them. they just care about their own good end. Allah does follow through with his reward.
Yes it does. How much do you know about cults and persuasion? I could go in depth but that would take many pages of information which you won't read anyway. I have read accounts of super smart people get sucked into cults and do things that they wouldn't normally do.

Whether thats committing adultery, crime, suicide, it's all part of the same kind of influence.

You hold onto Islam dearly because it's your only support structure.

As I said, you are now using the promise of rewards to fuel a lifestyle that forces you live well within your comfort zone of Islam. I could guess, but I see how most women are in islamic households - no friends, most of the time no job, no humour, no confidence, etc.

Remember I said MOST. I am not judging you, so don't take that personal.
Reply

Snowflake
11-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Any person who has denied the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has disbelieved.



"...Allah guides whom He wills and misguides whom He wills.." Surah 14:4


Surah 18:29
Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

Surah 2:26
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

Surah 22:4
Against him it is written down that whoever takes him (the devil) for a friend, he shall lead him astray and conduct him to the chastisement of the burning fire.

Surah 7:30
A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

Surah 33:36
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

Surah 14:27
Allah confirmeth those who believe by a firm saying in the life of the world and in the Hereafter, and Allah sendeth wrong-doers astray. And Allah doeth what He will.

Surah 25:44
Or deemest thou that most of them hear or understand ? They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray ?

Surah 33:67
And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way.


Surah 73:19
Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.


Surah 25:57
Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso will may choose a way unto his Lord.


Surah 80:11-12
Nay, but verily it is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it


Surah 29:69
As for those who strive in Us, We surely guide them to Our paths, and lo! Allah is with the good



Surah 52:13-19

The day when they are thrust with a (disdainful) thrust, into the fire of hell (And it is said unto them): This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny. Is this magic, or do ye not see ? Endure the heat thereof, and whether ye are patient of it or impatient of it is all one for you. Ye are only being paid for what ye used to do. Lo! those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight, Happy because of what their Lord hath given them, and (because) their Lord hath warded off from them the torment of hell-fire. (And it is said unto them): Eat and drink in health (as a reward) for what ye used to do






1. Say (O Muhammad (SAW) to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar)!
2. "I worship not that which you worship,
3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

Surah 17:72 Whoso is blind here will be blind in the Hereafter, and yet further from the road.



O Allah keep me and the muslimeen rightly guided. Ameen




Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Al-hamdu lillahi Rabb il-'alamin
Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Maliki yawmi-d-Din
Iyya-ka na'budu wa iyya-ka nasta'in
Ihdina-sirat al-mustaqim
Sirat al-ladhina an'amta 'alai-him
Ghair il-Maghdubi 'alai-him wa la-d-dallin
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds:
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgement.
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) was ask for help.
Show us the straight path:
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.


Ameen



Subhan Allah wal hamdulillah wa la ilaha illAllah my Rabb, my Creator, my Guardian, Sustainer and Forgiver of sins. The King of the Universe. My life is for Him. My death is for Him. I love for His sake, and I hate for His sake. I worship none but Allah al Quddus - The Holy, The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries. There is no power or might except with Allah.

Reply

Woodrow
11-25-2010, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by lostman
Yes it does. How much do you know about cults and persuasion? I could go in depth but that would take many pages of information which you won't read anyway. I have read accounts of super smart people get sucked into cults and do things that they wouldn't normally do.
It is very difficult to escape or break free from a cult. Many people who claim to have broken free from one either never were in a cult or were enticed into joining an even more entrapping one.


Originally Posted by lostman
You hold onto Islam dearly because it's your only support structure.
True, and why not hold onto something that is not going to fail you? Should a test pilot throw away his parachute because he knows it is the only thing that can save his life?


Originally Posted by lostman
As I said, you are now using the promise of rewards to fuel a lifestyle that forces you live well within your comfort zone of Islam. I could guess, but I see how most women are in islamic households - no friends, most of the time no job, no humour, no confidence, etc.
And you are certain the Musilimahs on this forum live like that? If you ever saw my wife break an untrained horse or back down a store clerk who tried to cheat her I do not think you would see any lack of confidence. Before we were married 2 years ago she was driving alone on the back roads of South Dakota on almost daily 200+ miles for shopping and doctors appointments and had done so for over 20 years. I am too scared to ever tell her she has no confidence.
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tango92
11-25-2010, 12:49 PM
if you have doubts about the quran bring forth another surah somewhat similar to it. its that simple. nobody has done so yet. this is its greatest miracle (alongside others) and the people of mecca became muslim due to hearing these words. therefore the quran has convinced us and we have not convinced ourselves of the quran.

therefore if another surah was produced the faith of the muslims would collapse.
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Hamza Asadullah
11-27-2010, 06:32 AM
One of your threads was already closed and the same is going to happen with this one as it is clear from your posts that you are not here to learn and that was clearly never your intention. You are only here to reject and your baseless arguments against Islam and religion are typical of one who's heart is filled with pride and arrogance that he will not listen nor accept no matter what is said to him.

"Who feared the Most Beneficent (Allah) in the Ghaib (unseen): (i.e. in this worldly life before seeing and meeting Him), and brought a heart turned in repentance (to Him - and absolutely free from each and every kind of polytheism), (Surat Qaf: 33).

"Verily, therein is indeed a reminder for him who has a heart or gives ear while he is heedful". (Surat Qaf: 37).

If only you knew what tranquility is felt in the hearts of the believers then you would do anything to gain such a feeling. It is never to late. Look into the Qur'an for yourself with an open heart and contemplate over the words. Just give it that chance and then you can make up your mind.

Only God can unseal the hearts so May Allah unseal yours. Ameen.
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