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سيف الله
11-22-2010, 11:03 PM
Salaam

Another documentary on the subject of Muslims living in UK. This time its about Islamic education (again):hmm:

The government says it will not tolerate anti-Semitic and homophobic lessons being taught to Muslim children in the UK.

BBC Panorama found that more than 40 Saudi Students' Schools and Clubs are teaching the official Saudi national curriculum to about 5,000 pupils.

One text book shows how the hands and feet of thieves are chopped off.

The Saudi government said it had no official ties to the part-time schools and clubs and did not endorse them.

However, a building in west London where Panorama obtained one of the text books is owned by the Saudi government.

The director of education for the Saudi Students' Schools and Clubs said the Saudi Cultural Bureau, which is part of the embassy, had authority over the network.

'Hellfire'

Education Secretary Michael Gove said there was no place for the Saudi teachings with regard to Jews or homosexuals in Britain: "To my mind it doesn't seem to me that this is the sort of material that should be used in English schools."

He said in light of the BBC's findings, the school inspectorate Ofsted was looking into the possible regulation and inspection of out-of-hours schools and clubs. At present, part-time schools do not fall within Ofsted's mandate.

"Ofsted are doing some work in this area, they'll be reporting to me shortly about how we can ensure that part-time provision is better registered and better inspected in the future," Mr Gove said.

One of the text books asks children to list the "reprehensible" qualities of Jewish people. A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".

Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.

In a book for 14-year-olds, Sharia law and its punishment for theft are explained, including detailed diagrams about how hands and feet of thieves are amputated.

'Out of context'

In a written response, the Saudi embassy said such materials were often taken out of context and often referred to historical descriptions.

But Neal Robinson, an expert in the Koran, said the context in which the materials are presented comes with risks.

"To present it cold, as it seems to be here, just part of the teaching of Islam, no it's not wise. In the wrong hands I think it is... ammunition for anti-Semitism."

The use of these materials in Britain comes three years after a BBC investigation found a Saudi-funded school in west London was using texts that referred to Jewish people and Christians in derogatory terms. That prompted assurances at the highest diplomatic levels that the materials would be removed.

Panorama has also found evidence of extreme views on some private, full-time Muslim school websites, including messages that state: "Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition to almost everything Islam stands for" and "We need to defend our children from the forces of evil".

MP Barry Sheerman, former Labour chairman of the Children, Schools and Families parliamentary committee, said politicians had avoided the issue of controversial teachings in some Muslim schools.

"There are some very good Muslim schools but there are some Muslim schools that give me great cause for concern that is often around the ethos of the schools, the focus of the school and the kind of ideology that is concerning."

Dr Usama Hasan, an Islamic scholar and part-time imam in east London, warned of the dangers of segregating young Muslims in Britain, particularly the seminaries where the next generation of imams are being educated.

"They don't interact with people who are not Muslim... they don't learn the ingredients of the western world, so it's very easy for them to read the medieval texts which were written at a time when Islam was under attack and say non-believers are our enemies and we have to fight them."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11799713

What do you guys think?
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Ramadhan
11-22-2010, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
What do you guys think?

Think?
I couldn't think.
I was laughing throughout the article at all the gems uttered by the so-called 'education minister"
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أحمد
11-22-2010, 11:30 PM
:sl:

I think the ignorance minister failed to understand the context; the system's a mess because of such ignorant "ministers". They spend too long taking passages out of context; to spread hatred, than to do anything useful for education.

:wa:
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GuestFellow
11-22-2010, 11:43 PM
One text book shows how the hands and feet of thieves are chopped off.
So?

A text for younger children asks what happens to someone who dies who is not a believer in Islam - the answer given in the text book is "hellfire".
So? I knew this since I was six.

Another text describes the punishment for gay sex as death and states a difference of opinion about whether it should be carried out by stoning, burning with fire or throwing the person over a cliff.
Can anyone confirm this?

But Neal Robinson, an expert in the Koran, said the context in which the materials are presented comes with risks.
What expert? I never even heard of him. Of all experts, they selected him?
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glo
11-23-2010, 07:00 AM
The half-hour programme can be watched (at least by people in the UK) on the BBC iplayer.

I found it quite balanced and not anti-Islamic schools per se, indeed it showed some Islamic schools in a very positive light.
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manaal
11-23-2010, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Panorama has also found evidence of extreme views on some private, full-time Muslim school websites, including messages that state: "Our children are exposed to a culture that is in opposition to almost everything Islam stands for" and "We need to defend our children from the forces of evil".

They call this extreme? And Gay Marriages are not?
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S_87
11-23-2010, 08:28 PM
it was clutching at straws. i bet they couldnt investigate a jewish school teaching jewish scriptures, oh no that would be anti semitic. but a muslim school-thats ok? and the average non muslim aint gonna know any different.
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purple
11-23-2010, 09:14 PM
:sl:

The Jewish schools did not let them in. They tried to access it but couldn’t even access it. The problem is with us, we let them in. And some of which the books are worded is worrying especially the women have to be confined to their homes. Also why was there a diagram of where the hands were to be cut? I don’t understand, unless the children are being taught to cut hands, I don’t see the point of it. And the reprehensible characteristics of Jew part is extremely worrying. Not all Jews are bad.
This is only few schools they went to, not all Islamic schools are like this. I know personally, the mosque that teaches my child is very good.
:wa:
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أحمد
11-23-2010, 09:41 PM
:sl:

The problem is, whenever the media or politicians discuss "information" they've stumbled upon; they automatically attribute it to Islam, and within a certain narrow definition, which they or others have cooked up in their own minds.

Islam teaches justice; not to go around chopping hands and feet over a missing piece of bread. Rights, duties and limits are all set in place.

:wa:
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Ramadhan
11-23-2010, 11:10 PM
The "education" minister needs to be educated about Islam.
This is a responsibility that Imams or Muslim associations in UK need to take up.
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GuestFellow
11-23-2010, 11:34 PM
^ I doubt the Imams will want to get involved. However, whether they do or not will not make much of a difference because the mainstream media is not interested.

As for the documentary, it is not bad, however it does not reveal the full picture either. I wouldn't say it is anti-Islam.
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~Raindrop~
11-23-2010, 11:39 PM
True^^

When our local Masjid was branded the 'Taliban Mosque' by CNN, the media were pretty interested. Now that the Home Office have investigated, seen that there's nothing untoward apart from the fact that most people in the locality originate from the Pak-Afghan border (thus the only link) and there isn't anything going on (they even send invites for the youth to visit the Houses of Parliament lol) CNN conveniently forgot to mention that.

No matter how much the righteous Ulama speak out, they're ignored by the mainstream media.
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manaal
11-24-2010, 09:44 AM
You know, I have seen a school textbook on British History that contains graphical pictures of how people were punished for either high treason, witch craft or being Catholic.... can;t recall which. This was a textbook for 6th graders. There was one I remeber very well of people with a spears through their bodies! These are OK then?
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glo
11-24-2010, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by manaal
You know, I have seen a school textbook on British History that contains graphical pictures of how people were punished for either high treason, witch craft or being Catholic.... can;t recall which. This was a textbook for 6th graders. There was one I remeber very well of people with a spears through their bodies! These are OK then?
Manaal, I suppose the difference is that those text books don't intend to teach children that those practices were good and correct. These are not instruction books of how to punish witches, Catholics or traitors!
Instead they intend to teach children about the horrific mistakes and crimes which people have condoned and committed over the course of history, and surely set out to teach that we must learn from our past and not to allow such things again!

But I agree with you that graphic depictions can be harmful and are not usually necessary or beneficial.
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IslamicRevival
11-24-2010, 09:50 PM
Although im not a big fan of the Saudis and their ideology, this is another an attack on Islam by the zionist controlled BBC.

Sallu Alal Habeeb, Sallahu Ta'Ala Ala Muhammad.
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GuestFellow
11-24-2010, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Although im not a big fan of the Saudis and their ideology, this is another an attack on Islam by the zionist controlled BBC.
:sl:

I would not say BBC is controlled by Zionists. The BBC has been critical of Israel.
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IslamicRevival
11-24-2010, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
:sl:

I would not say BBC is controlled by Zionists. The BBC has been critical of Israel.
Critical of Israel? I suppose you haven't seen the biased documentary the BBC aired after the Israeli terrorists massacred several people on the Flotilla convoy.
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GuestFellow
11-24-2010, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
Critical of Israel? I suppose you haven't seen the biased documentary the BBC aired after the Israeli terrorists massacred several people on the Flotilla convoy.
The documentary might have been biased (I never watched it), but that does not mean it is controlled by Zionists. Please, do present evidence to back up your claim that BBC is controlled by Zionists.


Alex Thomson shuts-up Israeli spokesman!
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سيف الله
11-24-2010, 11:09 PM
Salaam

To say BBC is 'Zionist' is going too far, however the BBC has had a poor record on helping people understand the Israeli-Palestine or even just reporting it. In fact its due to alternative news stories and activism that the BBC has had to improve its reporting.

I mean the Israeli massacre of Gaza, BBC reporting was dire, very poor and really showed the influence of the Israeli lobby + the fact that many in the British establishment supported the destruction of Gaza (to get rid of Hamas) but did voice mild concern when the massacre wasn't going according to plan.

Just two further examples

Go to post #444 and #447

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ivists-30.html

There's plenty more.

Troubled Soul, I think is right - there seems to be an effort by certain sections of the British establishment to put Muslims 'under pressure' to submit to 'British' values. Hence the spate of documentary's dealing with the Muslim 'problem' and how they are going to 'integrate' them into society.

Essentially they want to westernise, secularism, maybe even Christianise Islam so it becomes a weak, irrelevant and pointless faith, much like what Christianity has become in Britain (for anybody whose interested check out latest on the the potential break up of the Anglican Church).

We Muslims need to be alert (though not paranoid) about the potential challenges to our culture, values and faith.

Ill talk about this more later when I get some time.
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جوري
11-24-2010, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I suppose the difference is that those text books don't intend to teach children that those practices were good and correct. These are not instruction books of how to punish witches, Catholics or traitors!

You sound like the censorship guy who watches porno all day to give parental control rating .. surely doing it for the benefit of the people and not at all because s/he is a perverted hypocrite.

you are just too funny. Reaction formation anyone?
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glo
11-25-2010, 06:50 AM
^
I have no idea what the point is you are trying to make, Lily.
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Ummu Sufyaan
11-25-2010, 08:05 AM
i think this sums up her point pretty daym well.
surely doing it for the benefit of the people and not at all because s/he is a perverted hypocrite.
if you still need an elaboration, please go right ahead. the honor is only ours.
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manaal
11-25-2010, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Troubled Soul
im not a big fan of the Saudis and their ideology

I don;t think they are in any kind of popularity contest looking for fans.
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Perseveranze
11-25-2010, 06:26 PM
Why do people even debate about the hand-cutting, there's a very good moral story to it you know. You never steal, simple.
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Dagless
11-25-2010, 06:46 PM
I finally saw the full documentary on iplayer. It didn't really tell me much more than the clips on the news had. They didn't elaborate on the context in which the Jewish statements were given or even the book/chapter name; only the statements themselves.

The thing about fire and Islam being the right way is a normal thing in all religions. Did they expect "nobody will enter the fire and there will be no punishment"?

The homosexuality statements were not explained. I've never heard of a Saudi homosexual being burned or thrown off a cliff. In fact I thought the death sentence only applied if the person was married? They should have given the whole chapter in context. I found it really annoying that 5 or 6 words in the middle of a sentence were being read out and then we were expected to be shocked.

The explanation about hand and foot cutting seemed ok too since they said at the start of the program these were Saudi curriculum books. Since this is in the Saudi legal system what the hell did they expect? Next they'll import Christianity books from the Vatican and act all horrified when they have references to the pope.

This was honestly one of the worst documentaries I've seen. Either tighten the education system or quit complaining (although it probably doesn't help that we call them our best allies but disagree with their fundamental laws).
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Pygoscelis
11-25-2010, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
So?
So? I knew this since I was six.
What is truly odd about it is that Christians also say those who do not follow their religion deservedly burn in hell forever. It is an offensive concept, but it is by no means exclusive to muslims. It is in the biggest religious sector they have in the country.... so why is it only a problem for this guy when said by muslims? This is a good example of hypocracy and unfairly singling out Islam.

If he wants to make this point then address it evenly to ALL people who believe those who don't think like them deserve to suffer.
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purple
11-25-2010, 08:19 PM
:sl:I don’t see anything wrong with the cutting hands. I just think the diagram targeting 15 years olds as pointless unless the book is teaching them to do it themselves (i doubt it). Words would have been sufficient enough, as they are 15 years old after all. Surely they know what hands and feet are? The diagram is pointless. And like I said they way some of the texts were worded only made it easier for the likes of BBC to criticise.

I think admins should close this thread. :wa:
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جوري
11-25-2010, 08:23 PM
there was a time when 11 year olds were plotting to take the throne of Russia from their ailing siblings.. armies have been led by 13 year olds, 11 year old in middle schools are given birth control pills.. and well my five year old niece's 'peter Rabbit' book the father bunny didn't come home one day because he was turned into stew.. Are we picking and choosing what is appropriate and what isn't purely on whimsy or to cater to some hypocrite agenda which seems to bury its head in the sand to its own unspeakable actions?
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purple
11-25-2010, 08:32 PM
:sl:

I didn’t say it was inappropriate. I said it was pointless having a diagram specifically stating where hands or feet should be cut unless these fifteen years old are being taught to be the ones to cut hands and feet off when they suspect or caught someone stealing. Can you please tell me the point of having a diagram on where to specifically cut hands or feet? Bear in mind this book was targeting15 years olds who know what a hand and foot is!
I think having a picture of someone with no hands and feet should have more beneficial and deterrent!
:wa:
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Dagless
11-25-2010, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ubah
:sl:

I didn’t say it was inappropriate. I said it was pointless having a diagram specifically stating where hands or feet should be cut unless these fifteen years old are being taught to be the ones to cut hands and feet off when they suspect or caught someone stealing. Can you please tell me the point of having a diagram on where to specifically cut hands or feet? Bear in mind this book was targeting15 years olds who know what a hand and foot is!
I think having a picture of someone with no hands and feet should have more beneficial and deterrent!
:wa:
The same reason we are told how a heart works. We might not all operate on one but knowledge is very important.
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aadil77
11-25-2010, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What is truly odd about it is that Christians also say those who do not follow their religion deservedly burn in hell forever. It is an offensive concept, but it is by no means exclusive to muslims. It is in the biggest religious sector they have in the country.... so why is it only a problem for this guy when said by muslims? This is a good example of hypocracy and unfairly singling out Islam.

If he wants to make this point then address it evenly to ALL people who believe those who don't think like them deserve to suffer.
Thats exactly what I'd have said if they'd interviewed me on that programme
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purple
11-25-2010, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
The same reason we are told how a heart works. We might not all operate on one but knowledge is very important.
:sl:
A diagram of a heart might be shown to say how the heart work, because we don’t generally see our own heart. Let face it, we all know and see what a hand and a foot is and would known what the result of losing would be like especially if you are 15 years old!
I still don’t see the point of it. I still think it is pointless. Like I said, a picture of someone with no hand/s or feet would have been more useful. Also I would have added a narrative of what it is like to live with no hands or feet, if the aim was to deterrent young people, in this case in Saudi Arabia. Since the text was intended for those living in Saudi Arabia, maybe it is how they learn. So I couldn’t really criticise. In fact, I don’t even intend to criticise, I just find it odd.
:wa:
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أحمد
11-25-2010, 09:29 PM
:sl:

I attended state school, where they "taught" us that child exploitation during the industrial revolution was "a nice way to get discipline", and that beheading traitors was a better version of the death penalty for them. And still they "teach" the same "stuff" to thirteen year olds. And yes, they do have colourful diagrams of people getting beheaded.

I'm not trying to "justify" the Saudi curriculum, but I am saying; its hypocrisy to critise others, while you do that very criticised action yourself.

:wa:
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جوري
11-25-2010, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Just for clarification (and not wishing to take this thread off topic), but 'hellfire' has very little to do with my understanding of Biblical teaching.
well it is unfortunate that you cherry pick the teachings of your religion but I was really not expecting differently!
your feelings and understanding however have very little to do with the reality of things..

all the best
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glo
11-25-2010, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What is truly odd about it is that Christians also say those who do not follow their religion deservedly burn in hell forever. It is an offensive concept, but it is by no means exclusive to muslims. It is in the biggest religious sector they have in the country.... so why is it only a problem for this guy when said by muslims? This is a good example of hypocracy and unfairly singling out Islam.

If he wants to make this point then address it evenly to ALL people who believe those who don't think like them deserve to suffer.
That's a good point.

The programme does mention some fundamentalist Christian schools and orthodox Jewish schools, but the investigation itself focused on Islamic schools particularly.

However, I feel the programme gave a fairly balanced view of Islamic schools and made it quite clear that it is only a small number of Islamic schools (as well as - and I assume - Christians and Jewish schools) which are cause for concern ...
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Dagless
11-25-2010, 10:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ubah
:sl:
A diagram of a heart might be shown to say how the heart work, because we don’t generally see our own heart. Let face it, we all know and see what a hand and a foot is and would known what the result of losing would be like especially if you are 15 years old!
I still don’t see the point of it. I still think it is pointless. Like I said, a picture of someone with no hand/s or feet would have been more useful. Also I would have added a narrative of what it is like to live with no hands or feet, if the aim was to deterrent young people, in this case in Saudi Arabia. Since the text was intended for those living in Saudi Arabia, maybe it is how they learn. So I couldn’t really criticise. In fact, I don’t even intend to criticise, I just find it odd.
:wa:
My opinion differs. It is helpful and informative to say exactly what is to be cut. In fact students would probably ask if they weren't told. Saying hand is ok for younger students but curiosity asks where on the hand... the fingers? below the thumb? at the wrist? In fact I would hope there would even be some brief explanation as to why that place was chosen. 15 is gcse age and subjects are meant to go into some depth.
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purple
11-25-2010, 10:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dagless
My opinion differs. It is helpful and informative to say exactly what is to be cut. In fact students would probably ask if they weren't told. Saying hand is ok for younger students but curiosity asks where on the hand... the fingers? below the thumb? at the wrist? In fact I would hope there would even be some brief explanation as to why that place was chosen. 15 is gcse age and subjects are meant to go into some depth.
:sl:

okay
:wa:
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Ramadhan
11-26-2010, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Just for clarification (and not wishing to take this thread off topic), but 'hellfire' has very little to do with my understanding of Biblical teaching.
This actually surprised me a lot.
which sect of christianity do yo belong, Glo?
because this is a first time of me hearing a christian who says hellfire has no significance.
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Pygoscelis
11-26-2010, 12:50 AM
How can you have a saviour without having something to be saved from? Does Jesus' sacrifice not depend on Hell existing?
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glo
11-26-2010, 06:43 AM
Naidamar and Pygo, these questions probably belong into the Religions section.
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سيف الله
11-26-2010, 06:03 PM
Salaam

Statement from the Muslim Council of Britain.

MCB Statement on Panorama Story – “British Schools, Islamic Rules”
Tuesday 23 November 2010

In relation to the BBC Panorama programme on Muslim schools, the Muslim Council of Britain issued the following statement: “The vast majority of Muslim schools in this country offer a much-needed service to British Muslims. Many full-time Muslim schools have achieved impressive results in educational league tables, and part-time schools inspire young Muslims to contribute to the common good.

“The Muslim Council of Britain is heartened that the majority of Muslim schools work towards established standards, striving to promote an agenda that recognises Britain’s cherished pluralism. We hope that those few schools that fall short of such objectives, if indeed they do, redouble their efforts for the benefit of their own children”.

Commenting on the programme itself, the Muslim Council of Britain said: “The programme’s incendiary title and commentary from the programme’s presenter has already contributed to the mood-music that Muslims are somehow separate, foreign and un-British. Responsible reporting would examine faith schools in its totality.”

John Ware had complete disregard for the value of Ofsted inspection, a nationally recognised body governing schools, and chose to seek something of a minority to cause contention. The programme did not represent a fair documentation as it failed to inform of the Muslim schools that have conveyed successful achievements and pass rates and was inept to fully highlight the findings from rigorous Ofsted inspection.


http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail...nouncement-942
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سيف الله
11-27-2010, 04:24 PM
Salaam

Heres another viewpoint on the controversy

London, UK, November 22nd 2010 – The media sensationalism generated by tonight’s BBC Panorama [British Schools, Islamic Rules] is the latest attempt to force Muslims to adopt liberal values.

“the tactics are now well understood by most Muslims. You demonise aspects of Islamic beliefs and values linking them to selective quotations, distortions or misrepresentations about Islam in the hope that Muslims will denounce every aspect of Islam that contradicts secular liberal values.”

“The programme talked of ‘diagrams about the punishment for thieves’, verses from the Qur’an, and the unsurprising Islamic view that homosexuality as a sin against the law of the Creator, and presented these as evidence that such Islamic views are unacceptable and Muslims must reject them.”

“Muslims are increasingly used to seeing the myth of liberal tolerance being replaced with the truth of liberal supremacy, having seen similar attacks by some politicians and sections of the media pressurising Muslims to embrace secular values.”

“We doubt if Mr Gove, the Education Secretary, would show consistency and ban H.E. Marshall’s ‘Our Island Story’ – a favourite of conservative educationalists – from school because it talks about ‘Turks’ and ‘Saracens’ in such jingoistic and derogatory terms.”

“Muslims have been expected by the British establishment to concede they have ‘false grievances’ about the West’s foreign policy, that occupation of Muslim lands must go undefended, that attacks on the Shariah are legitimate, and that they should laugh off attacks on the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Now aggressive liberal secularists demand that Muslims endorse same sex relationships as a natural lifestyle choice and distance themselves from Shariah punishments, the effect of which is to deter the levels of criminality all too common in Western cities.”

“Michael Gove and Panorama should perhaps concentrate more on the real problems in British education: the rising levels of attacks on teachers; the bullying of children due to their faith; and the fact that society has rising levels of teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted disease and antisocial behaviour.”

“It is precisely for these reasons that Muslims seek to encourage their children to chose Islamic values, so that they can be wholesome, decent, productive people, who have respect for others – especially for women and the elderly – as well as for themselves, no matter where they are in the world.”

”Despite the huge pressure on Muslims in the west to remain silent in the face of this coercive assimilation campaigns, we will continue to expose such liberal totalitarianism and urge Muslims to engage in the wider debate about the damaging effect of some liberal values on society at large.”

http://www.hizb.org.uk
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GuestFellow
11-27-2010, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
“Michael Gove and Panorama should perhaps concentrate more on the real problems in British education: the rising levels of attacks on teachers; the bullying of children due to their faith; and the fact that society has rising levels of teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted disease and antisocial behaviour.”
:sl:

The issue is, these problems are so common, the media will not attract so many viewers. The public and the media in general are not interested. There is alcohol and drug problems too.
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سيف الله
11-27-2010, 11:39 PM
Salaam

Forgot to add this - one reaction to the 'documentary'

Muslims20Schools20Ban20Our20Culture?  SQUARESPACE CACHEVERSION1235137396428 -

*sigh*
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Dagless
11-28-2010, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

Forgot to add this - one reaction to the 'documentary'



*sigh*
How can this be a reaction to the documentary? The documentary is a few days old but the newspaper headline must be almost 2 years old. It has Jade on the cover and she died in early 2009.
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سيف الله
11-28-2010, 10:20 AM
Salaam

Is it? Im being slack, sorry :(

Yeah this was a year ago. It was a general story about Muslim schooling.

For what its worth it shows this issue has been going on for some time but doesnt destract from my error.

Thanks again for pointing it out :phew
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