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Pygoscelis
11-23-2010, 06:42 PM
In the holy books, the Bible and Quran, we have claims of all powerful Gods who have a message for us humans and have certain things they want us to and not to do. Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language (can a divine message even be put into human words?). Surely he didn't need to rely on human messengers or "prophets". An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that. To suggest otherwise is to question is omnipotence.

So given he COULD have avoided using prophets and books, which are subject to misinterpretation, and which have resulted in so much religious tension in the world.. why didn't he? He clearly intended all this tension to exist since he could have avoided it, no?

This is a point on religion that I have rarely seen expressed. So it would be interesting to explore. Maybe God has a good reason for wanting this tension to exist?

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman from another thread
If you see no reason to seek out any deities then I can only wonder, how hard have you tried to understand the communication in question before passing it off as poor?
Indeed, and that is what this thread is created for.

Just because I don't believe these stories and beliefs to reflect truth doesn't mean I don't enjoy studying them from an academic standpoint. Mythology is interesting, be it ancient Greek or present day. It reflects the psychology of its believers which may have very real world implications and consequences.
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B_M
12-03-2010, 03:01 AM
Hmmm.

Nature, Earth and the entire universe itself is God's most powerful communication..






For example, a female has a reproductive tract. She also contains eggs. A male has a reproductive organ. He also contains sperm. I believe that's a pretty clear message, lol. I don't think we need a book or prophet for that one, lol.
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Pygoscelis
12-03-2010, 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by B_M
For example, a female has a reproductive tract. She also contains eggs. A male has a reproductive organ. He also contains sperm. I believe that's a pretty clear message, lol. I don't think we need a book or prophet for that one, lol.
Not a very clear message to me. What do you take from this message? That we should all have sex and reproduce? Doesn't seem to in any way suggest anything further, nor anything regarding a deity or what it may want (beyond us to copulate?)
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Zafran
12-03-2010, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Not a very clear message to me. What do you take from this message? That we should all have sex and reproduce? Doesn't seem to in any way suggest anything further, nor anything regarding a deity or what it may want (beyond us to copulate?)
The signs are there in the universe if you cant read them then thats your problem.
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CosmicPathos
12-03-2010, 05:20 AM
Not sure why you try to play God to know what God wanted and what He did not. Maybe that is your problem, to know what God wants and thinks and then use that to deny His existence by showing that what He wants is not perfect. So in essence, you try to play God.

Not sure if "God making us believe in Him," which of course He could do, serves any purpose for the existence of this universe ....
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S.Belle
12-03-2010, 06:08 AM
God can make us believe anything that he wanted us to but instead he blessed us with free will and has given certain knowledge to people who then extended that knowledge in search for the truth. The reason for prophets is to remind mankind of the truth, this life is nothing but a test. When people went astray in the past God sent a prophet from among them to rectify their actions and lead them towards the truth it was by the grace of God if they chose to listen bc God leads who he wills to the truth.
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Alpha Dude
12-03-2010, 09:44 AM
Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language
The existence of Allah and the Prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him, is evident and has been made abundantly clear. However, it takes a sound heart and mind to recognise the writing on the wall.

Allah says in the Quraan, chapter 26:
1. These are revelations of the Scripture that maketh plain.
2. It may be that thou tormentest thyself (O Muhammad) because they believe not.
3. If We will, We can send down on them from the sky a portent so that their necks would remain bowed before it.
4. Never cometh there unto them a fresh reminder from the Beneficent One, but they turn away from it.
5. Now they have denied (the Truth); but there will come unto them tidings of that whereat they used to scoff.
6. Have they not seen the earth, how much of every fruitful kind We make to grow therein?
7. Lo! herein is indeed a portent; yet most of them are not believers.
8. And lo! thy Lord! He is indeed the Mighty, the Merciful
can a divine message even be put into human words?
It's interesting that you say this. We are told that the Qur'aan is the uncreated, eternal speech of Allah.

The translation of the Quraan cannot be considered a pure revelation. Hence, this is why we Muslims stick to praying solely in Arabic (during the main 5 times prayers - supplication/asking for help can be done in any language).

An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that. To suggest otherwise is to question is omnipotence.
The question of compromised omnipotence does not arise because it is a deliberate choice on the part of Allah that things were revealed in the manner that they were.

why didn't he? He clearly intended all this tension to exist since he could have avoided it, no?

This is a point on religion that I have rarely seen expressed. So it would be interesting to explore. Maybe God has a good reason for wanting this tension to exist?
Yes, there is a reason. Fundamental premise in Islam: This life is a test. It doesn't last forever and does not compare to the vastness of the hereafter.

There will most definitely be trials and tribulations via natural calamities along with shaytan inspiring man into doing evil things. All this is part of the test to see how much a person can avoid doing bad, how much good a person can do, how much patience and trust in Allah he can show during times of distress, how much gratitude he can show during times of blessings/happiness etc.
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جوري
12-05-2010, 06:33 PM
To arrive to God it doesn't take a book.. to understand what God wants from us will take one, as is the case with any discipline.

You know engineering exists you see handiwork all around, but if you want to be an engineer you'll have to do it through formal means (which will include books) that is if you desire to be recognized for your achievements!
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IAmZamzam
12-05-2010, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
In the holy books, the Bible and Quran, we have claims of all powerful Gods who have a message for us humans and have certain things they want us to and not to do. Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language (can a divine message even be put into human words?). Surely he didn't need to rely on human messengers or "prophets". An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that. To suggest otherwise is to question is omnipotence.

So given he COULD have avoided using prophets and books, which are subject to misinterpretation, and which have resulted in so much religious tension in the world.. why didn't he? He clearly intended all this tension to exist since he could have avoided it, no?

This is a point on religion that I have rarely seen expressed. So it would be interesting to explore. Maybe God has a good reason for wanting this tension to exist?
This is the essence of antitheistic argumentation (or half of it, maybe: there are so many more cliches still), as a paper I'm right in the midst of right now elaborates on in more detail. This rationale is the source of all the snobby remarks about theism or theistic arguments being "dead in the water" or "obsolete" or "primitive"; it really doesn't get any better. This is at least half the scope of atheistic reasoning writ large in one concise capsule: unanswerable and only deceptively relevant questions about motive disguised as argument (we can't even know for sure why people, often including our own selves, do anything they do), appeals to probability (the "if something can happen, therefore it will" fallacy), and claims of no clarity or of "incoherency" where no one else finds anything to be unclear.

If you really must know (and I hate to indulge the discussion because it would be encouraging the above), God has told us in the Koran that even if He did send down angels in their true form with the message, people would still just cry, "Witchcraft!" or, "Magic trick!" or "I must be seeing things." Sure He has the power to remove or override the capacity for this, but when He gave us the ability to make up our minds for ourselves about anything, He wasn't whistling dixie. He was committed. And if miracles were commonplace then they would not seem so much like miracles. Not to mention that as long as people have their inner moral law, recognize it as such, and follow it, then they are still obeying God even if they have never heard of these laws' source. Our conscience is (usually) the only sign or communication that we need. God is not, I think, the type to shout over everyone else, but merely the type to tell you to listen for him so that he doesn't have to raise his voice when he has something to say. (Would you expect such a huge authority figure to be otherwise?) And even if he never did say anything to you, that would only mean that you're not at fault for not heeding it.

I reiterate: the important thing is that asking, "Why would God do this why wouldn't he do that etc." does not help theists understand anything better and it does not help atheists make any good points against theism either, and I really do wish you'd learn not to make appeals to probability. Things don't happen that can happen all the time: it doesn't prove squat. More often than not, it doesn't mean squat.
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aadil77
12-05-2010, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
In the holy books, the Bible and Quran, we have claims of all powerful Gods who have a message for us humans and have certain things they want us to and not to do. Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language (can a divine message even be put into human words?). Surely he didn't need to rely on human messengers or "prophets". An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that. To suggest otherwise is to question is omnipotence.

So given he COULD have avoided using prophets and books, which are subject to misinterpretation, and which have resulted in so much religious tension in the world.. why didn't he? He clearly intended all this tension to exist since he could have avoided it, no?
.
The whole point is not to make the truth seem so obvious that it requires no faith at all. Otherwise everyone would be true believers.
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M.I.A.
12-05-2010, 06:54 PM
there is a really fundamental question here and one that i could put a theory on... nothing but conjecture though so take it with a pinch of salt.

how about this,

humans act without thinking,
humans think before acting,
humans follow there agendas,
humans follow there wants and needs,
humans follow there religions,
humans do a trillion things and all for a trillion reasons.

as muslims we believe in an all knowing and all powerful god, we are by default believing in things that we dont know about...its a faith thing.

we prostrate before our god, this is not our world.
i guess this world was made for something that did not prostrate... it may be a lesson for something else entirely.

this reasoning is not thought through or explained properly, i guess you can read between the lines and i also know that it goes against the things in islam but it makes sence as to why freedom of choice exists, why we were put here and who tests us and who tries to misguide us.
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The signs are there in the universe if you cant read them then thats your problem.
If everything we need to know of God can be found in signs in the universe, then what need have you of the Quran or of Mohammed?
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Not sure why you try to play God to know what God wanted and what He did not. Maybe that is your problem, to know what God wants and thinks and then use that to deny His existence by showing that what He wants is not perfect. So in essence, you try to play God.

Not sure if "God making us believe in Him," which of course He could do, serves any purpose for the existence of this universe ....
The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?

If we all simply knew he existed and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't reject or rebel against something that doesn't exist).

It is a similar question that I have pondered on Christian forums. Are people who don't believe in God capable of blasphemy?
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
To arrive to God it doesn't take a book.. to understand what God wants from us will take one, as is the case with any discipline.

You know engineering exists you see handiwork all around, but if you want to be an engineer you'll have to do it through formal means (which will include books) that is if you desire to be recognized for your achievements!
This comparison to other subjects, that we learn from human teachers, leaves out the power that God would have to simply make us know what he wants. If God is all powerful, he is not limited in what information or how much information he can instantly put in our heads, and neither are we, his creation limited if he doesn't want us to be.
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
appeals to probability (the "if something can happen, therefore it will" fallacy)
Look at it again. This is in no way saying "if something can happen, therefore it will".

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Not to mention that as long as people have their inner moral law, recognize it as such, and follow it, then they are still obeying God even if they have never heard of these laws' source. Our conscience is (usually) the only sign or communication that we need.
Problem there is that our conscience and "inner moral sense" has nothing to do with following or worshiping any particular God. Even if you could establish that we inherently have a moral rule that we should worship a god, that still leaves out which one, in what manner, etc. It also leaves out a lot of arbitrary (as I would see it) or less obvious (as you would see it) moral rules - the ones that vary from religion to religion.
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جوري
12-05-2010, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This comparison to other subjects, that we learn from human teachers, leaves out the power that God would have to simply make us know what he wants. If God is all powerful, he is not limited in what information or how much information he can instantly put in our heads, and neither are we, his creation limited if he doesn't want us to be.
The information we have in our head is basic.. basic knowledge is usually what is needed to get you through the door, the rest if acquired as far as you wish to take it..
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IAmZamzam
12-05-2010, 08:38 PM
Pygo, your entire OP was just one long string of appeals to probability. It even started right out with one: “God could have sent his message ‘better’; therefore it throws His omnipotence into doubt if He didn’t.” God could also have made us all polka-dotted. I could have given you an example earlier, yet I trusted you to be able to figure it out for yourself, and if you had tried and been genuinely unable then I wouldn’t have held it against you. “Could” is not a word that proves anything about anything: only “does” does. It’s all about motive to you atheists, isn’t it? Half the time you’re justifying disbelief in God’s existence by presuming motives on His behalf, the other half you’re doing the same thing by demanding to know what His motives are. Motive cannot be definitely established even with humans, even in our own selves. Recognize matters of mere speculation for what they are.
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IAmZamzam
12-05-2010, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This comparison to other subjects, that we learn from human teachers, leaves out the power that God would have to simply make us know what he wants. If God is all powerful, he is not limited in what information or how much information he can instantly put in our heads, and neither are we, his creation limited if he doesn't want us to be.
Imagine if a character from a story came to life and wondered how there could be an author if he didn't write them into existence with a full initial knowledge of their signficance in the plot, or because they personally don't see any bits of foreshadowing around them!
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
It even started right out with one: “God could have sent his message ‘better’; therefore it throws His omnipotence into doubt if He didn’t.”
That is not a quote from my OP. Nor is that it otherwise stated or suggested in my OP. You have read that into it yourself and the rest of your post above flows from that error.
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Pygoscelis
12-05-2010, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Imagine if a character from a story came to life and wondered how there could be an author if he didn't write them into existence with a full initial knowledge of their signficance in the plot, or because they personally don't see any bits of foreshadowing around them!
Not sure what you are trying to do here. An author of a story does not make sentient characters he wishes to communicate with. Nor does my question in the OP have anything to do with a God existing or not.
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IAmZamzam
12-05-2010, 09:32 PM
So you do recognize speculation for what it is? And this isn't about (making weak attempts at) incurring doubts in us? You're speaking purely out of curiosity instead of skepticism and not attacking any beliefs? Is that right? If it is, I think I've already answered well enough in my first response.
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Zafran
12-06-2010, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If everything we need to know of God can be found in signs in the universe, then what need have you of the Quran or of Mohammed?
The Quran and Muhammad pbuh are one of the signs - see what I mean By not being able to read the signs.
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya
So you do recognize speculation for what it is? And this isn't about (making weak attempts at) incurring doubts in us? You're speaking purely out of curiosity instead of skepticism and not attacking any beliefs? Is that right? If it is, I think I've already answered well enough in my first response.
More like deduction. And others were raising interesting points flowing from it.

You would have seen this had you read the thread before jumping in with your haughty straw man (complete with fake quotes in quotation marks).
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran and Muhammad pbuh are one of the signs - see what I mean By not being able to read the signs.
Only one of? Does that mean that there is more to be known and understood about Allah than what is written in the Quran? Does your fitrah (is that the right word?) and scripture combine and are both necessary or is one of them redundant?
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Zafran
12-06-2010, 01:37 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Only one of? Does that mean that there is more to be known and understood about Allah than what is written in the Quran? Does your fitrah (is that the right word?) and scripture combine and are both necessary or is one of them redundant?
No thats not what it means - its means what I said - the prophets, the books, the creation are all signs.
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IAmZamzam
12-06-2010, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
More like deduction. And others were raising interesting points flowing from it.
Answer the question. Are you asking these things out of curiosity, for the mere sake of clarification, or are they in question form only as a trope or grammatical technicality and you're just trying to "debunk" our beliefs or something?

You would have seen this had you read the thread before jumping in with your haughty straw man (complete with fake quotes in quotation marks).
What is it with people and the phrase "straw man"?? It's getting to be a cliche if not an obsession. Do quote marks always literally have to indicate quotation? Have you honestly never seen people use them with a summary or paraphrasing before? You said that God's omnipotence is called into question because of His not doing something He is theoretically capable of doing. If that isn't an appeal to probability and an argument well summarized by what I had in quotation marks there, whatever could be?
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 04:48 AM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
What is it with people and the phrase "straw man"??
I have not encountered people calling straw man very often at all. Maybe you keep hearing people call out straw men on you because you keep engaging in them?What you did here is a text book case of a straw man argument. You made up an argument and attributed it to me, even using quotation marks to make it look like you were quoting verbatim. You then proceeded to attack this argument you yourself made up and concluded that you had defeated me (for an argument I never made), all laced with indignation towards those dastardly arrogant atheists.

As I have told you repeatedly now, it was deduction/induction/exploration, as everyone else in the thread, mostly muslims, were quite aware (and a few made interesting points of their own following it up). Read it again without your preconceived idea, and it should be pretty clear. Instead of projecting motives on people and assigning arguments to them, perhaps you could read and address what people actually do say? It makes for a more coherent conversation.

You said that God's omnipotence is called into question because of His not doing something He is theoretically capable of doing.
And there you go with it again. I did not say that at all, no matter how bad you want me to have. This is tiresome and at this point you may have permanently derailed the thread from what we actually were discussing.
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Trumble
12-06-2010, 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
The whole point is not to make the truth seem so obvious that it requires no faith at all. Otherwise everyone would be true believers.
And that would be a problem because.... ? In what way is a condition where everyone is a true believer inferior to one where many/most are not?!!
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جوري
12-06-2010, 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Quote Originally Posted by aadil77 View Post The whole point is not to make the truth seem so obvious that it requires no faith at all. Otherwise everyone would be true believers.
Originally Posted by Trumble
And that would be a problem because.... ? In what way is a condition where everyone is a true believer inferior to one where many/most are not?!!

I don't personally agree with Br. Aadil on his view. Given the universality and ease of the message of Islam.. however one should at least make a minor effort.
No teacher is going to hand you the exam results before the test.. it doesn't make for an interesting existence!

all the best
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Ramadhan
12-06-2010, 07:49 AM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't personally agree with Br. Aadil on his view. Given the universality and ease of the message of Islam.. however one should at least make a minor effort.
No teacher is going to hand you the exam results before the test.. it doesn't make for an interesting existence!

all the best
I agree with this.
Unless their hearts are truly sealed, anyone with working braincells who has heard and understood the true mesage of Islam would know that it is the truth.
Most would reject it for many various reasons, however, but not because of the message itself.
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aadil77
12-06-2010, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
And that would be a problem because.... ?
Because it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers are in your face
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M.I.A.
12-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?

If we all simply knew he existed and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't rejecthttp://www.islamicboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1389966 or rebel against something that doesn't exist).

It is a similar question that I have pondered on Christian forums. Are people who don't believe in God capable of blasphemy?
im not sure i believe that islam is the only pathway to heaven, its very similar to the christ being salvation from hellfire thing the christians do.

to each soul will be judgement and god is not unmindful of what you have done with your life.
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
im not sure i believe that islam is the only pathway to heaven, its very similar to the christ being salvation from hellfire thing the christians do.

to each soul will be judgement and god is not unmindful of what you have done with your life.
Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?
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جوري
12-06-2010, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?
does your belief in God hinge on whether or not other theists hold the belief that you'll end up in heaven?
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Because it wouldn't be much of a test if the answers are in your face
It would be a true test of if people will accept and worship Allah, or reject and rebel against him. I do not reject Allah any more than you reject Jesus as your personal saviour. I do not disobey Allah any more than you disobey Odin and Thor (or any other imaginary figure). You can not reject or rebel against something without first knowing it exists.

Lots of well meaning Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and atheists honestly and earnestly search for God an find different answers. None of them are turning against Allah mindfully. If God is all powerful then he did not have to make the message so cryptic and resort to ancient tomes and human messengers.He didn't have to resort to human language at all, and could haev simply made us all know what he wishes us to know. We would then have the free will to make the informed decision to either follow him or rebel against him. That he did not do this shows that he intended the religious confusion and tension that we have in the world, Atheists against Theist, Christian against Muslim, Suni against Shia, etc. My question is why.
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

does your belief in God hinge on whether or not other theists hold the belief that you'll end up in heaven?
No. Why would you think that? I was just seeking to clarify my friend's viewpoint.
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جوري
12-06-2010, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No. Why would you think that? I was just seeking to clarify my friend's viewpoint.

seemed like the sort of clarification upon which something else is based.. but if you say so..

all the best
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IAmZamzam
12-06-2010, 04:03 PM
Here's a radical idea: if I have misunderstood you, Pygoscelis, why don't you actually correct my interpretation of your words instead of just hurling around accusations yourself?
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Pygoscelis
12-06-2010, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Here's a radical idea: if I have misunderstood you, Pygoscelis, why don't you actually correct my interpretation of your words instead of just hurling around accusations yourself?
I did. Twice. And pointing out your straw man argument is not hurling accusations. Calling you tiresome in my most recent post was bad form, so for that I apologize. I will redouble my effort to be civil and respectful. I ask that you do the same.
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IAmZamzam
12-06-2010, 04:34 PM
You did not correct me on anything. You just insisted that I was wrong about what you meant and left it at that. And saying the word "deduction" does not do anything all by itself. What is being deduced? That's what I want to know: your conclusion.

Perhaps it would be easier if you restate your point in the form of a syllogism. Unless you really do mean for it to only be an inquiry out of genuine curiosity. If you don't, you may as well be out with it instead of being all rhetorical about it.
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M.I.A.
12-06-2010, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do you believe that even atheists can go to heaven if they live a moral life and do good by their fellow humans, even though they don't believe that God exists?
i remember what happened yesterday but i do not know what will happen tomorrow.
i believe up until your dying breath there is hope, a persons entire viewpoint can change in the blink of an eye if allah so wills.

morality is subjective, some people save the cat in the tree and end up chopping down the whole forrest.

allah swt knows best and the truth of all that we did in this life is with god alone.
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aadil77
12-06-2010, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If God is all powerful then he did not have to make the message so cryptic and resort to ancient tomes and human messengers.He didn't have to resort to human language at all, and could haev simply made us all know what he wishes us to know. We would then have the free will to make the informed decision to either follow him or rebel against him.
Again, if we all had knowledge of the truth from the start - most of us would probably believe in it, making no room for personal choice.

That he did not do this shows that he intended the religious confusion and tension that we have in the world, Atheists against Theist, Christian against Muslim, Suni against Shia, etc. My question is why.
Islamic belief is pretty clear and stands out well from all other religions, I don't see what 'religious confusion' you're talking about. You just need to do your research, look past all the crap that you hear and come to a honest decision.
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 02:10 AM
Originally Posted by aadil77
Again, if we all had knowledge of the truth from the start - most of us would probably believe in it, making no room for personal choice.
But personal choice in what? Personal choice to believe something you don't? Or personal choice to obey and follow God presuming that you already believe he exists and know what he demands of you?

Islamic belief is pretty clear and stands out well from all other religions
What religion does not claim the same? I know that you honestly believe Islam is different and special, but that is how everybody else feels about their religions too.

You just need to do your research, look past all the crap that you hear and come to a honest decision.
I have and I have reached a very different conclusion than you have. So has Grace Seeker, and he's reached yet another conclusion. So has Trumble, and he has reached yet another. Then there are Hindus, Jews, etc. All are seeking earnestly and looking past what they believe to be crap they hear and all come to honest conclusions. Yet everybody's conclusion, even within a given religion, seems to be a little bit different than everybody elses. That is the confusion.
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aadil77
12-07-2010, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I have and I have reached a very different conclusion than you have. So has Grace Seeker, and he's reached yet another conclusion. So has Trumble, and he has reached yet another. Then there are Hindus, Jews, etc. All are seeking earnestly and looking past what they believe to be crap they hear and all come to honest conclusions. Yet everybody's conclusion, even within a given religion, seems to be a little bit different than everybody elses. That is the confusion.
You do know that not everyone is meant to be muslim, that there are will always be believers and disbelievers? This is why heaven and hell were created - there will be inhabitants in both places.

You say you and others have come to an honest conclusion, but why then are you here asking such questions, if you are set in your beliefs then you shouldn't really have the need to dwell on issues like this. I can't judge and say how genuine/sincere/honest you and others are, only god knows that - so we can't say for certain that everyone has come to honest conclusions. I believe only following the truth can bring true inner contempt and satisfaction, without any intention to boast - this is what I feel this inside me, can you say the same? (you don't have to answer this question)
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by aadil77
You do know that not everyone is meant to be muslim, that there are will always be believers and disbelievers? This is why heaven and hell were created - there will be inhabitants in both places.
It is your view that Allah creates some of us intending us to go to hell? He doesn't want everybody to be saved?
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Ramadhan
12-07-2010, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
He doesn't want everybody to be saved?
Have you ever thought that maybe Allah wanted you to be saved by sending you to Islamic board and learn about His message and then submit to him?
At the end, you have a freewill to submit and reject Him. It is up to you.
Had we all been forced to submit to Him, He would have created robots or cyborgs instead of human.
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
Have you ever thought that maybe Allah wanted you to be saved by sending you to Islamic board and learn about His message and then submit to him?
No more that such a thing has occurred to me when I visit the Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Scientologist boards.

At the end, you have a freewill to submit and reject Him.
Not really. I don't have that choice to make any more than you have the choice to make to submit to or reject Odin or Zeus. You have to believe such beings exist before you can make such decisions.

It is up to you.
Had we all been forced to submit to Him, He would have created robots or cyborgs instead of human.
But not had we all been forced to know he exists. Then we would all truly have the choice you mention above.
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جوري
12-07-2010, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Jewish, or Scientologist boards.
I'd have to say that statement is very untruthful..firstly Jews don't accept converts and are closed to themselves and Scientology well I guess with them you can catch a tax break.. there are no 'souls' to be saved you return back to the battery that charged you up.. I however never felt your purpose here was for any other reason than overt trolling..

all the best
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I however never felt your purpose here was for any other reason than overt trolling..
all the best
Pot meet kettle.
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جوري
12-07-2010, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Pot meet kettle.
Not at all-- I have no cause to troll on an Islamic forum while asserting the same puerile points of 'spaghetti and tea pots' for almost half a decade.. it is really sad for your own person that you have gained nothing at all from your very protracted stay here!

all the best
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Zafran
12-07-2010, 07:41 PM
I agree with Vale lily - You've been here for a very long time - Yet you keep coming back even though your preety dead set on a particular viewpoint. You've clearly made your mind up - thats very little to actually talk about on the topic with a person who already knows the conclusion.
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IAmZamzam
12-07-2010, 09:02 PM
And you still haven't told me what your goal is or whether you're forming an argument or an inquiry.
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aamirsaab
12-07-2010, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?
I think God chose to relay His message through human examples so we could understand it better. Not to sound like a troll., but I am not fluent in the diction of Giraffe or Chicken. In fact, I'm not sure anyone in the world is.

If we all simply knew he existed and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't reject or rebel against something that doesn't exist).
If we all simply knew a lot of things life would be a whole lot easier, I'm sure you will agree ;) However I think the purpose of the so called religion puzzle is actually part and parcel of the test. We're supposed to be strive to be good people as well as having a belief in Allah. Doing one makes the other much easier and I think this is what is being left out with your analysis. That's why the puzzle doesn't make sense to yourself and many other athiests.

Another way of looking at it is to look at the journey and not the destination.
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IAmZamzam
12-07-2010, 10:57 PM
God is concerned with our intentions, our efforts, not our intellectual accuracy. The scriptures have said this time and again. It's not about solving some danged puzzle. It's about our choices.
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Insaanah
12-07-2010, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yet if this God is all powerful, surely he could have communicated this message better than having to rely on human language (can a divine message even be put into human words?). Surely he didn't need to rely on human messengers or "prophets". An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know, simple as that.
If God made you know what He wanted you to know (in the way that you are implying), I wonder what the chances are that you would have said, "But God, I need a human example to show me how to apply this, I need a book with it written down that I can read at my own leisure."

What you're saying here actually isn't anything new. Even the non-Muslims at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said things along similar lines:

"Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels? ..." (Qur'an 2:210)

Then there would be no choice. You would be compelled to accept by what you saw or heard.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
An all powerful being could simply make you know what he wants you to know
Allah won't make you know anything. He has given you His signs, His book, the example of His prophet (peace be upon him), and your faculties to use.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But not had we all been forced to know he exists. Then we would all truly have the choice you mention above.
No. If you were made to know by direct communication from God speaking to you, everyone would submit, because God had spoken to them and told them what to do. In actual fact, that would be no choice.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The point is that by better communicating God could have avoided much of the religious strife and tension in the world. This doesn't in any way disprove God. It only indicates that if he does (and he's all powerful) then he wants such strife and tension to exist, and you have to wonder why. Perhaps it serves some purpose I do not see?
God's communication is not the cause of tension in the world. People have free will. There will always be bad people and good. And each are free, in this world, to do as they please. People often say, well, if there was a God, why is there so much evil in the world? It is like they want intervention from God to stop it, or for Him to prevent it, and feel that somehow this not happening means there either isn't a God or that He is not powerful because He didn't stop it. Even if the examiner in a formal exam can see that the answers you are writing are wrong, he/she doesn't intervene to tell you that. You have your allotted time, at the end of which you pass or fail.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If we all simply knew he existed
If there was a pile of wood lying in an area, and the next day you came back and it had turned into a table, would you come to the conclusion that the pieces of wood had cut themselves up into pieces of the right size, arranged themselves in the right order, and fixed themselves together to become a table, without a maker? Maybe you would, but I doubt it.

Again the universe is full of signs of His existence, for you to contemplate and see. You personally may feel that the signs don't lead you to believe that there is an All-Powerful Creator, and that the universe came into being and arranged itself, but that is a conclusion that you have come to yourself, as you are free to do so, for God won't make you believe anything. Presumably, in your mind, you can justify your stance.

Through His creation, His books, His prophets, He has told you He exists, but if your faculties bring you to a different conclusion, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He has done a lousy job, and you cannot blame God for a conclusion you have come to using your free will. Nobody is made to or forced to believe anything.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
and they he was as muslims (or whichever religion is right) envision him instead of how pagans or christians (or whoever is wrong) envision him, then the only "test" would be wether or not you choose to follow and obey his commands, instead of wether or not you can figure out the religion puzzle. Making us know what he wishes us to know would not take away free will. People would still be free to reject him and rebel against him (which is what I am often told is what I do anyway - but one can't reject or rebel against something that doesn't exist).
You mean, that you believe doesn't exist. Or have you already made up your mind as a foregone conclusion that He doesn't? For you to know that something doesn't exist, you have to know what it is that you are saying doesn't exist. So, for you to say that God doesn't exist, you have to know what God is. What is God to you, and which sources are you deriving your idea of what God is, from?

To you, is God composed of three persons, one of whom is a son that he begot?
Or, are there multiple gods?
Are there two gods, one almighty and one not almighty?
Or, is there:
• One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.

The following is a short basic description of God, though there are more details in the Qur'an:

Say: "He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute.
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him." (Qur'an, 112)

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This comparison to other subjects, that we learn from human teachers, leaves out the power that God would have to simply make us know what he wants. If God is all powerful, he is not limited in what information or how much information he can instantly put in our heads
Again, you are asserting your own belief that if God didn't do what you wanted Him to do, or do it how you personally wanted Him to do it, therefore He lacks power. This is faulty logic, and this point has been addressed above.

If you are sincerely desiring the truth, then I hope you will have an open mind and heart and will contemplate and consider seriously what is said.

Peace.
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Pygoscelis
12-09-2010, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
We're supposed to be strive to be good people as well as having a belief in Allah. Doing one makes the other much easier and I think this is what is being left out with your analysis. That's why the puzzle doesn't make sense to yourself and many other athiests.

Another way of looking at it is to look at the journey and not the destination.
That is a very good point aamisraab. Perhaps God wishse us to have the experience of seeking and perhaps the seeking is valuable in some way.

This prompts me to ask you what you think Allah should/does do with those who seek honestly but come to the wrong answers? Do you think that Allah makes us know the truth just after we die and then judges if we will follow him at that point (presuming we have lived a good and just life)? Or do you believe that he will punish people for not worshiping him even though they did not believe in him (or believed in other gods)?
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IAmZamzam
12-09-2010, 04:17 PM
There is an ahadith in which in the hereafter Allah asks several committers of ostensibly good acts, including a martyr, what they did, and they respond with their actions. Allah replies, "So you did; so it was ordained," and thrusts them all face first into hell. If this hadith is accurate, then the inverse of what it indicates must be as well.

Why does the subject always end up veering into whether atheists can go to heaven with you, Pygoscelis?
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Pygoscelis
12-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
If God made you know what He wanted you to know (in the way that you are implying), I wonder what the chances are that you would have said, "But God, I need a human example to show me how to apply this, I need a book with it written down that I can read at my own leisure."
There would be no such need because God would make there be no such need. If God is all powerful then he can do that.

No. If you were made to know by direct communication from God speaking to you, everyone would submit, because God had spoken to them and told them what to do. In actual fact, that would be no choice.
Only if God forced us to submit. Knowing somebody commands something does not force you to obey. Just becaase we all knew Allah exists and what he wants doesn't mean we'd do it. There are plenty of muslims who (think they) know what Allah wants but still fail to do it, are there not?

I expect that there would be plenty more who even if they knew God exists, they actually WOULD turn against him. One could then truthfully call those people infidels (disobedient) instead of just disbelievers. You can't obey an authority that you don't beleive to exist.

An atheist is incapable of blasphemy, because blasphemy requires intent. Do you disagree?

God's communication is not the cause of tension in the world.
Certainly not the only cause. But can you really deny that religious tension and strife exists between those who beleive God wants A and those who believe God wants B? There are atheists vs theists, muslims vs christians, sunni vs shia, catholics vs protestants, each of them fighting for what they believe to be the truth. This religious tension could very easily have been avoided by a God having us all know who he really is and what he really wants. People would still be free to act how they will on that information.

Even if the examiner in a formal exam can see that the answers you are writing are wrong, he/she doesn't intervene to tell you that. You have your allotted time, at the end of which you pass or fail.
You go into a formal exam knowing who the teacher is, knowing which text book and material you were to study. You're not given a myriad of conflicting textbooks and teachers and left to wonder which material you will be graded on.

Through His creation, His books, His prophets, He has told you He exists, but if your faculties bring you to a different conclusion, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist, or that He has done a lousy job, and you cannot blame God for a conclusion you have come to using your free will. Nobody is made to or forced to believe anything.
No it doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but yes it does mean he could do a better job at communicating his message. He is not limited in his means of communication as humans are and would not be restricted to our normal means of communication, such as books and messengers. That he could have used better means of communication and chose not to is where my thoughts on this begin.

Again, you are asserting your own belief that if God didn't do what you wanted Him to do, or do it how you personally wanted Him to do it, therefore He lacks power. This is faulty logic, and this point has been addressed above.
No, you have this is exactly backwards. I am taking as a premise that he DOES have the power and that he has chosen not to use it and drawing my query from there.
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IAmZamzam
12-09-2010, 05:05 PM
So it is a query? In that case I already answered it with my first post.
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Insaanah
12-09-2010, 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If God is all powerful then he can do that.
He can do things that He wills and that befit His majesty. To show He is all powerful God doesn't have to do that. His power is manifest. If you are sincere, seek. Do your research and explore (you may well already have done this). Look at the concept of God in different religions. Does it make sense for Him to beget a child? Is He composed of three persons? Are there lots of him? Is there a major god and minor god? Or, is there just One eternal, immortal, indivisible God? How many versions are there within a religion of the main scripture? Are they scientifically sound? Is there any unchanged book, that all followers of a religion, no matter how diverse, follow the same single book? No versions. Traceable back to the time of revelation. Not a word has changed, etc etc. If you have already done all of that, sincerely trying to find guidance, and come to the conclusion that there is no God, and have created this thread, then perhaps your journey of exploration is not over yet...

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
There are plenty of muslims who (think they) know what Allah wants but still fail to do it, are there not?
That only holds if God had made them know something, which is the argument you are using, but He didn't. Islam is perfect, but not every Muslim is.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
You can't obey an authority that you don't beleive to exist.

An atheist is incapable of blasphemy, because blasphemy requires intent. Do you disagree?
I can't say, because if you say you don't believe God exists, I don't know what it is that you are referring to when you're saying that you don't believe that God exists.

Originally Posted by Insaanah
For you to know that something doesn't exist, you have to know what it is that you are saying doesn't exist. So, for you to say that God doesn't exist, you have to know what God is. What is God to you, and which sources are you deriving your idea of what God is, from?

To you, is God composed of three persons, one of whom is a son that he begot?
Or, are there multiple gods?
Are there two gods, one almighty and one not almighty?
Or, is there:
• One God, other than Whom there is none worthy of worship.
• He has no associates whatsoever in His Divinity.
• He has no sons, daughters, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any kind.
• He does not beget, not is He begotten.
• He is not composed of any number of persons, godheads, or anything else.
• He is Eternal, Immortal, indivisible.
• He is free of all need and dependence.
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Certainly not the only cause.
It is not a cause.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But can you really deny that religious tension and strife exists between those who beleive God wants A and those who believe God wants B? There are atheists vs theists, muslims vs christians, sunni vs shia, catholics vs protestants, each of them fighting for what they believe to be the truth. This religious tension could very easily have been avoided by a God having us all know who he really is and what he really wants.
Throughout the world, there are far more atheists plus theists, Muslims +christians, catholics + protestant than there are against. And, as I already said, there are good and bad in every community. There is far more strife over land, politics, etc, but religion is often used as a scapegoat.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That he could have used better means of communication and chose not to is where my thoughts on this begin.
I know they do, and I addressed that in my first post and brother Yahya addressed that in his first post in the thread too. The "Why did God not do such and such, and if God had done that, I would have believed, or would had the freedom to choose" scenario...You have the freedom to choose now. Take it.

Peace.
Reply

Ramadhan
12-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No more that such a thing has occurred to me when I visit the Christian, Jewish, Hindu, or Scientologist boards.
Ah, then you are on the right track.

I hope the next thing you do is to learn how God is described in Islam compared to those religions, and use your faculty of logic (that God has given you) to investigate which one of those descriptions of God is the most likely to befits the creator of the who universe, the uncaused.

Is God likely to be one in three, a third came down to earth, suffering the humiliation of its creation, powerless and suffering from amnesia?
or is God an ancient indian king with multiple arms riding on a giant eagle?
or is god an intergalactic aliens spawning the earth?

Or is God as described in the QS. Al Ikhlas written in previous post by sis. Insanaah, along with the beautiful attirubutes that He has revealed:


1. Allah: He who has the Godhood which is the power to create the entities.

2. Ar-Rahman: The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers and the blasphemers in this world and especially for the believers in the hereafter.

3. Ar-Rahim: The One who has plenty of mercy for the believers.

4. Al-Malik: The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.

5. Al-Quddus: The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries.

6. As-Salam: The One who is free from every imperfection.

7. Al-Mu'min: The One who witnessed for Himself that no one is God but Him. And He witnessed for His believers that they are truthful in their belief that no one is God but Him.

8. Al-Muhaymin: The One who witnesses the saying and deeds of His creatures.

9. Al-^Aziz: The Defeater who is not defeated.

10. Al-Jabbar: The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.

11. Al-Mutakabbir: The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures and from resembling them.

12. Al-Khaliq: The One who brings everything from non-existence to existence.

13. Al-Bari': The Creator who has the Power to turn the entities.

14. Al-Musawwir: The One who forms His creatures in different pictures.

15. Al-Ghaffar: The One who forgives the sins of His slaves time and time again.

16. Al-Qahhar: The Subduer who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.

17. Al-Wahhab: The One who is Generous in giving plenty without any return.

18. Ar-Razzaq: The One who gives everything that benefits whether Halal or Haram.

19. Al-Fattah: The One who opens for His slaves the closed worldy and religious matters.

20. Al-^Alim: The Knowledgeable; The One nothing is absent from His knowledge.

21. Al-Qabid and 22. Al-Basit: The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdom and expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.

23. Al-Khafid and 24. Ar-Rafi^: The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.

25. Al-Mu^iz and 26. Al-Muthil: He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degradeswhoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.

27. As-Sami^: The One who Hears all things that are heard by His Eternal Hearing without an ear, instrument or organ.

28. Al-Basir: The One who Sees all things that are seen by His Eternal Seeing without a pupil or any otherinstrument.

29. Al-Hakam: He is the Ruler and His judgment is His Word.

30. Al-^Adl: The One who is entitled to do what He does.

31. Al-Latif: The One who is kind to His slaves and endows upon them.

32. Al-Khabir: The One who knows the truth of things.

33. Al-Halim: The One who delays the punishment for those who deserve it and then He might forgive them.

34. Al-^Azim: The One deserving the attributes of Exaltment, Glory, Extolement,and Purity from all imperfection.

35. Al-Ghafur: The One who forgives a lot.

36. Ash-Shakur: The One who gives a lot of reward for a little obedience.

37. Al-^Aliyy: The One who is clear from the attributes of the creatures.

38. Al-Kabir: The One who is greater than everything in status.

39. Al-Hafiz: The One who protects whatever and whoever He willed to protect.

40. Al-Muqit: The One who has the Power.

41. Al-Hasib: The One who gives the satisfaction.

42. Aj-Jalil: The One who is attributed with greatness of Power and Glory of status.

43. Al-Karim: The One who is clear from abjectness.

44. Ar-Raqib: The One that nothing is absent from Him. Hence it's meaning is related to the attribute ofKnowledge.

45. Al-Mujib: The One who answers the one in need if he asks Him and rescues the yearner if he calls upon Him.

46. Al-Wasi^: The Knowledgeable.

47. Al-Hakim: The One who is correct in His doings.

48. Al-Wadud: The One who loves His believing slaves and His believing slaves love Him. His love to His slavesis His Will to be merciful to them and praise them:Hence it's meaning is related to the attributes of the Will and Kalam (His attribute with which He orders and forbids and spoke to Muhammad and Mu sa -peace be upon them- . It is not a sound nor a language nor a letter).

49. Al-Majid: The One who is with perfect Power, High Status, Compassion, Generosity and Kindness.

50. Al-Ba^ith: The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.

51. Ash-Shahid: The One who nothing is absent from Him.

52. Al-Haqq: The One who truly exists.

53. Al-Wakil: The One who gives the satisfaction and is relied upon.

54. Al-Qawiyy: The One with the complete Power.

55. Al-Matin: The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.

56. Al-Waliyy: The Supporter.

57. Al-Hamid: The praised One who deserves to be praised.

58. Al-Muhsi: The One who the count of things are known to him.

59. Al-Mubdi': The One who started the human being. That is, He created him.

60. Al-Mu^id: The One who brings back the creatures after death.

61. Al-Muhyi: The One who took out a living human from semen that does not have a soul. He gives life bygiving the souls back to the worn out bodies on the resurrection day and He makes the hearts alive by the light of knowledge.

62. Al-Mumit: The One who renders the living dead.

63. Al-Hayy: The One attributed with a life that is unlike our life and is not that of a combination of soul, fleshor blood.

64. Al-Qayyum: The One who remains and does not end.

65. Al-Wajid: The Rich who is never poor. Al-Wajd is Richness.

66. Al-Majid: The One who is Majid.

67. Al-Wahid: The One without a partner.

68. As-Samad: The Master who is relied upon in matters and reverted to in ones needs.

69. Al-Qadir: The One attributed with Power.

70. Al-Muqtadir: The One with the perfect Power that nothing is withheld from Him.

71. Al-Muqaddim and 72. Al-Mu'akhkhir: The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.

73. Al-'Awwal: The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

74. Al-'Akhir: The One whose Existence is without an end.

75. Az-Zahir 76. Al-Batin: The One that nothing is above Him and nothing is underneath Him, hence He exists without aplace. He, The Exalted, His Existence is obvious by proofs and He is clear from the delusions of attributesof bodies.

77. Al-Wali: The One who owns things and manages them.

78. Al-Muta^ali: The One who is clear from the attributes of the creation.

79. Al-Barr: The One who is kind to His creatures, who covered them with His sustenance and specified however He willed among them by His support, protection, and special mercy.

80. At-Tawwab: The One who grants repentance to whoever He willed among His creatures and accepts his repentance.

81. Al-Muntaqim: The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It maymean the One who destroys them.

82. Al-^Afuww: The One with wide forgiveness.

83. Ar-Ra'uf: The One with extreme Mercy. The Mercy of Allah is His will to endow upon whoever He willedamong His creatures.

84. Malik Al-Mulk: The One who controls the Dominion and gives dominion to whoever He willed.

85. Thul-Jalal wal-Ikram: The One who deserves to be Exalted and not denied.

86. Al-Muqsit: The One who is Just in His judgment.

87. Aj-Jami^: The One who gathers the creatures on a day that there is no doubt about, that is the Day of
Judgment.

88. Al-Ghaniyy: The One who does not need the creation.

89. Al-Mughni: The One who satisfies the necessities of the creatures.

90. Al-Mani^: The Supporter who protects and gives victory to His pious believers. Al-Mu'tiy The Withholder

91. Ad-Darr and 92. An-Nafi^: The One who makes harm reach to whoever He willed and benefit to whoever He willed.

93. An-Nur: The One who guides.

94. Al-Hadi: The One whom with His Guidance His belivers were guided, and with His Guidance the living: beings have been guided to what is beneficial for them and protected from what is harmful to them.

95. Al-Badi^: The One who created the creation and formed it without any preceding example.

96. Al-Baqi: The One that the state of non-existence is impossible for Him.

97. Al-Warith: The One whose Existence remains.

98. Ar-Rashid: The One who guides.

99. As-Sabur: The One who does not quickly punish the sinners.
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GuestFellow
12-10-2010, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It is your view that Allah creates some of us intending us to go to hell? He doesn't want everybody to be saved?
Allah would like to see all of us to be saved. Accepting Islam will benefit us in this world and the next world. You have a choice to accept it or not, it's your responsibility.
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aamirsaab
12-10-2010, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That is a very good point aamisraab. Perhaps God wishse us to have the experience of seeking and perhaps the seeking is valuable in some way.
I happen to have my own theory on our existence on an individual level. Won't detail it here cus it's off-topic (and will most likely cause a derailment) but if you want we can discuss it in PMs.

This prompts me to ask you what you think Allah should/does do with those who seek honestly but come to the wrong answers? Do you think that Allah makes us know the truth just after we die and then judges if we will follow him at that point (presuming we have lived a good and just life)? Or do you believe that he will punish people for not worshiping him even though they did not believe in him (or believed in other gods)?
Let me start by saying I don't know what God will do with such people. But, what I do know is God will judge us as individuals and it will be extensive. I also know that He is the most merciful and that His decision is final and I accept that completely.

I also know that to attain admittance to Heaven requires the belief in the oneness of Allah as the bare minimum; a prerequisite if you will. The other half of the equation comes from the balance struck between good and bad deeds (if good is greater, then God permitting, heaven will be granted to you; if not well it's a stay in hell...for sometime anyway).

Now I have never seen nor spoken to a man who calls himself a muslim, believes in the oneness of Allah and at the same time behaves completely counter to Islam. To me that combination cannot exist; if you truly believe in the oneness of Allah then you will act accordingly (and thus Islamically). If not, you are a hypocrite and thus your prerequisite is forfit.
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Perseveranze
12-10-2010, 08:41 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

By telling God to do a better job do you mean by him showing a more clearer sign so that the whole purpose of a "test" becomes pointless?

"Those who do not know say, "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith]." - [2:18]

"Will they wait until Allah comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? but to Allah do all questions go back (for decision)." - [2:210]

End of the day, we weren't made for the "fun" of it, there is a purpose, a test. You as an Athiest might find it ridiculous to see or hear that so many people convert to Islam, amongst them intellects. The testit set out perfectly, the communications were all done perfectly, there's little to question unless your mind's already set on a certain idea...
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Pygoscelis
12-12-2010, 06:10 PM
The test is not set out perfectly, nor the communication done perfectly or to the fullest extent of what an all powerful being could do.

In fact, all that false myth and stories have are people and books making claims, and yet the real all powerful God chooses to communicate in the exact same manner... and you say he wishes to be understood and believed more than those false myths and stories?

Maybe he doesn't wish to be believed and understood by all, as the gentleman a few posts above was saying.
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IAmZamzam
12-12-2010, 07:44 PM
And yet you still claim not to be making appeals to probability!

Those who are genuinely, truly, really incapable of grasping anything are not held accountable for grasping it. Yet most of the claims of incoherency in religion I've seen from the nonreligious are just their own forced semantic squabbling. If there is anything you would like to understand then you can always feel free to ask us instead of just sitting there saying that it doesn't matter since God should place understanding in your head already.
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Zafran
12-12-2010, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The test is not set out perfectly, nor the communication done perfectly or to the fullest extent of what an all powerful being could do.

In fact, all that false myth and stories have are people and books making claims, and yet the real all powerful God chooses to communicate in the exact same manner... and you say he wishes to be understood and believed more than those false myths and stories?

Maybe he doesn't wish to be believed and understood by all, as the gentleman a few posts above was saying.
How do you know of what extent the all powerful could do and could not - you know more then the all powerful and the all knowing or are you limited?

God communicates for humanities own Good - but if you think you know best then so be it - we'll find out when we all die who knew best.

As I said if you have made up your own mind this talk is preety meaningless.
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Pygoscelis
12-13-2010, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
How do you know of what extent the all powerful could do and could not
If he's all powerful then by definition there is no could not.
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Zafran
12-13-2010, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If he's all powerful then by definition there is no could not.
By definition as your limited - what do you know what a perfect method of communication is or what should be the best mode of communciation to man? Only the all wise knows that.
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Pygoscelis
12-13-2010, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
By definition as your limited - what do you know what a perfect method of communication is or what should be the best mode of communciation to man? Only the all wise knows that.
Indeed. As I said, perhaps there is a reason for all of the tension and strife caused by unclear and competing books and prophets. I don't know what that would be.
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Zafran
12-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Indeed. As I said, perhaps there is a reason for all of the tension and strife caused by unclear and competing books and prophets. I don't know what that would be.
Books and prophets are preety clear - its humans that make things unclear by thinking they know better.
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Trumble
12-13-2010, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Those who are genuinely, truly, really incapable of grasping anything are not held accountable for grasping it. Yet most of the claims of incoherency in religion I've seen from the nonreligious are just their own forced semantic squabbling.
Odd.. that's much the same as most of the comments made here about the Trinity.^o)
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Ramadhan
12-14-2010, 02:20 AM
The problem with atheists is that they think their intellect and wisdom can explain everything in this universe and beyond, and in fact, many, as pygo and trumble have shown here, they use their wisdom as a standard what god should do.

This reminds me of my little nephews and nieces, who, often complain to their parents why they need to do this and not that while their limited intelect and wisdom say the opposite that they should do that and not this.

Now compare that with our limited intelligence and wisdom against God's who by definition have unlimited intelligence and wisdom.
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M.I.A.
12-14-2010, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
This reminds me of my little nephews and nieces, who, often complain to their parents why they need to do this and not that while their limited intelect and wisdom say the opposite that they should do that and not this.
and this is the world we live in.
although nobody thinks of there own intellect and wisdom as limited.
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Pygoscelis
12-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
The problem with atheists is that they think their intellect and wisdom can explain everything in this universe and beyond,
Not so much. I don't know everything. I doubt anybody else does either. I also do not claim to be able to figure everything out. I do ask questions and explore ideas though. And I try to avoid logical pitfalls like appeals to authority.
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Lynx
12-14-2010, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
The problem with atheists is that they think their intellect and wisdom can explain everything in this universe and beyond, and in fact, many, as pygo and trumble have shown here, they use their wisdom as a standard what god should do.

This reminds me of my little nephews and nieces, who, often complain to their parents why they need to do this and not that while their limited intelect and wisdom say the opposite that they should do that and not this.

Now compare that with our limited intelligence and wisdom against God's who by definition have unlimited intelligence and wisdom.
don't you use your own intellect and wisdom when you argue against christians and jews? in that context you are guilty of the same arrogance that you are accusing atheists of. i think the only explanation of your apparent inconsistency is that you don't like your personal beliefs being questioned.
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IAmZamzam
12-23-2010, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Odd.. that's much the same as most of the comments made here about the Trinity.^o)
And if a Christian were saying it in response to a claim (even a merely insinuated one) that no doctrine as incomprehensible as the Trinity could possibly be true then that would be a cogent analogy. But that's never the argument, is it?
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