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Grace Seeker
11-29-2010, 09:11 PM
The following comes from another thread in which a portion of that thread was spent discussing Muslim responses to unIslamic acts committed in the name of Islam:

All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
I thought it was a great question. Certainly a fair question. And therefore a question deserving of a response. I invite all non-Muslims who have an answer to that question to share it here.

But let us answer with things that can actually be done. We can't ask someone here to turn in Osama binLaden or solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I also ask that this not be turned into a thread to merely vent.

And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing. Don't assume that every person that does not praise Islam is therefore attacking Islam. None of us are perfect either as individuals or collectively. I believe the same could be said of our various religious histories in that even religions which are given to us by a perfect God are practiced by imperfect individuals. So, questions may arise about Islam that don't cast it in a favorable light. That they are asked is not to ignore that the same could be said about every other religion or philosophy known to man. But here the question that is being asked is what do non-Muslims want from Muslims. And to answer that question, the first thing we need is to be given a hearing.
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أحمد
11-29-2010, 09:26 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The following comes from another thread in which a portion of that thread was spent discussing Muslim responses to unIslamic acts committed in the name of Islam:

All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?

I thought it was a great question. Certainly a fair question. And therefore a question deserving of a response. I invite all non-Muslims who have an answer to that question to share it here.

But let us answer with things that can actually be done. We can't ask someone here to turn in Osama binLaden or solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I also ask that this not be turned into a thread to merely vent.

And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing. Don't assume that every person that does not praise Islam is therefore attacking Islam. None of us are perfect either as individuals or collectively. I believe the same could be said of our various religious histories in that even religions which are given to us by a perfect God are practiced by imperfect individuals. So, questions may arise about Islam that don't cast it in a favorable light. That they are asked is not to ignore that the same could be said about every other religion or philosophy known to man. But here the question that is being asked is what do non-Muslims want from Muslims. And to answer that question, the first thing we need is to be given a hearing.
Please provide a thread and post link, to the quoted text.

:wa:
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2010, 09:41 PM
The second thing that we want is more Muslims who represent their faith in the manner as did the Islamic community this past weekend in Portland, OR. For those who may not have heard the news an Oregon teen attempted to blow up a car bomb at a large Christmastree-lighting ceremony. The teen actually carried out his plans, but was thwarted because the bomb that he attempted to detonate was a fake he had actually obtained, not from co-conspirators, but from the FBI. Reports are the Muslim community in Portland assisted the FBI and issued a strong condemnation of the terrorist attempt.

As the father of the Iman at the mosque which the young man would occassionally attend said, that Mohamud was e-mailing someone in Pakistan shows nobody in the U.S. supported his extremist ideology. "He's reaching for people outside because he doesn't find any terrorists here." It might seem obvious and something that should go without saying, but we need to hear that as well.
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GuestFellow
11-29-2010, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

And the first thing I would ask is that we actually be given a hearing.
Okay, you've got it.
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2010, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by أحمد
Please provide a thread and post link, to the quoted text.
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1387232

But let us not rehash that which brought about the closing of that thread.



format_quote Originally Posted by ProfessorSunday
Okay, you've got it.
Thanks! You have always behaved on this forum in a way which causes me to believe that your truly do make a strong attempt to not just listen, but to actually hear before responding.
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Perseveranze
11-30-2010, 12:54 AM
Why is he reaching for people outside the US? My guess is, because he's hoping someone from Iraq or Afganistan who has been war-torn because of the US/UK invasion, who's deeply influenced by this and has pure hatred set for these people would inevitably reply to him.

Just glad he got caught and didn't find anyone in the US.
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2010, 01:39 PM
Here's another thing that this particular non-Muslim wants. I want to be able to have a conversation on world politics without having the crusades thrown back in my face. I didn't participate in them. I don't know anyone who did participate in them. They have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all of western civilization and most definitely by Christians. Certainly, I've never heard anyone in my lifetime ever speak favorably of them.
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GuestFellow
11-30-2010, 05:27 PM
^ Yes, but I think it is fine to use the crusades as an example. Using it as an example does not mean you participated in it or support it.

Did I post this before? o_O
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tango92
11-30-2010, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
^ Yes, but I think it is fine to use the crusades as an example. Using it as an example does not mean you participated in it or support it.

Did I post this before? o_O
agreed. it is a great example, especially as such a mentality still exists today
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Zafran
11-30-2010, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Here's another thing that this particular non-Muslim wants. I want to be able to have a conversation on world politics without having the crusades thrown back in my face. I didn't participate in them. I don't know anyone who did participate in them. They have been thoroughly repudiated by nearly all of western civilization and most definitely by Christians. Certainly, I've never heard anyone in my lifetime ever speak favorably of them.
Your right, but niether did any Muslim on this board (that I'm aware of) particpate in 9/11, 7/7, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc etc.
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Grace Seeker
12-01-2010, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Your right, but niether did any Muslim on this board (that I'm aware of) particpate in 9/11, 7/7, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine etc etc.

Agreed, though on rare occassions a person has shown up (and then usually disappeared) who did express support for them.



format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Yes, but I think it is fine to use the crusades as an example.
An example of what? I guess I need to be educated.


format_quote Originally Posted by tango92
agreed. it is a great example, especially as such a mentality still exists today
If that mentality still exists today (and I'm sorry to hear that you still encounter it), then please speak to that mentality directly. To refer to something that took place 500+ years ago, even if it is a good example, makes it very hard for me to identify what it is that you find objectionable today because my memory doesn't go back to those events.
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Zafran
12-01-2010, 01:39 AM
Agreed, though on rare occassions a person has shown up (and then usually disappeared) who did express support for them.
Including people that support the Iraq , Afghan and anti palestine wars?
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Grace Seeker
12-01-2010, 03:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
Including people that support the Iraq , Afghan and anti palestine wars?
I don't remember any who were anti-palestine. But, YES, to the rare individual Muslim who supported NATO forces in Afghanistan and US in Iraq. Though they certainly are NOT the same or as many as those who expressed support for 9/11 or 7/7 events. And many, by my way of counting, who have expressed support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
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sister herb
12-01-2010, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't remember any who were anti-palestine. But, YES, to the rare individual Muslim who supported NATO forces in Afghanistan and US in Iraq. Though they certainly are the same or as many as those who expressed support for 9/11 or 7/7 events. And many, by my way of counting, who have expressed support for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
They might be many whose support USA acts in Iraq and Afghanistan and are non-muslims. I see kind of acts as crusades of our time, not just 500+ years before.

Yes yes for example I support Talibans and Hamas too, but I don´t see they have anything to do with any 9/11 or 7/7 happenings (I don´t even know what is 7/7).

Is it better if we stop totally keep here any kind of political discussions if it makes some of our sensitive non-muslim members feels themselves unfomfortable when they have to read what kind of crimes against humanity some non-muslims have done and are doing every single day? And discuss about Islam only?
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GuestFellow
12-01-2010, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I guess I need to be educated.
To keep this short, history repeats itself but in a different shape and form.
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Grace Seeker
12-01-2010, 02:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Yes, I think you should. To keep this short, history repeats itself but in a different shape and form.

You're going to have to go longer in your explanation. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to Muslims making their case that there is a second crusade going on today. What you see as history repeating itself, I don't see. The motives, locations, and participants today are different.
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Grace Seeker
12-01-2010, 03:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Is it better if we stop totally keep here any kind of political discussions if it makes some of our sensitive non-muslim members feels themselves unfomfortable when they have to read what kind of crimes against humanity some non-muslims have done and are doing every single day? And discuss about Islam only?
No. How could you do this? Islam touches every aspect of a person's life.

But another thing that non-Muslims would like is to see Muslims be more attuned to differentiating between the actions of governments, culture, and individuals.

For example: It is often projected here that Christians are immoral, lovers of or personally involved in homosexuality, pedophilia, all sorts of pronography and other lewd behaviors simply because these things are seen through western media outlets. If non-Muslims are not to believe everything that the western media tells us about Muslims, please apply that same standard to not believing everything you see from the western media with respect to morality among western citizenry, and especially Christians.


Note: In citing the above example, I don't mean to imply that no Christians ever engage in any immoral acts, in fact none of us are perfect. But as a broad generalization it simply isn't true and would be a false stereotype.
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GuestFellow
12-01-2010, 03:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You're going to have to go longer in your explanation. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to Muslims making their case that there is a second crusade going on today. What you see as history repeating itself, I don't see. The motives, locations, and participants today are different.
Yes, go ahead and create a topic about it. For now, I hope your satisfied that when an event is raised in a discussion, it does not mean that you support it or participated in it.

But another thing that non-Muslims would like is to see Muslims be more attuned to differentiating between the actions of governments, culture, and individuals.
It will be done.
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Woodrow
12-01-2010, 03:34 PM
Let us try to stay on topic here. some of us have often asked what do Non-Muslims expect to gain from being members of this forum. Let us give them a chance to tell us why they are here. We may disagree with why some are here, but the least we can do is learn why they are here in their own words. There is no need to debate their reason. Just let them answer the question that was asked in the OP and let us also see what they expect from us.

We do not have to agree with each other, but we can all learn what we each expect from each other. Some things may even benefit all of us.
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titus
12-01-2010, 03:47 PM
All right, let's just be out with it then, Pygo and Seeker and all you folks: what exactly do you want us to say? What is it you want to hear so badly?
I just want to hear what Muslims, and others, think about different issues. That's all.

When I first started posting on a Muslim forum way back in the day I couldn't have even told you what "halal" meant. I have used such forums as tools to learn, and hopefully some Muslim have gleaned some bits of knowledge or insight from my posts also.
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Pygoscelis
12-02-2010, 05:05 PM
What titus said.

And to refrain from sheltering, condoning, or calling violent radicals "brothers" and "sisters", and from automatically siding with fellow muslims even when they are clearly in the wrong, just because they are muslims.

Not necessary, but speaking out against high profile events like 9/11 also helps, as does reacting to negative actions done against them in a good and sensible manner. The reaction from muslims following the "9/11 mosque" and quran burning fiasco was examplary. It was calm and reasoned. More of that would help. We see some christians do this as well sometimes, a calm sort of "I feel bad that somebody could be so filled with hate against us and I pray for them to find peace" sort of response. Contrast that to the reaction to the cartoons. That reaction to the cartoons did more harm to my view of muslims and Islam than the cartoons themselves could have ever done.
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IAmZamzam
12-02-2010, 05:45 PM
Funny how all of this started with me simply asking Grace Seeker to go ahead and spit something out already. I did not mean my question as some sort of call for round table discussion on deep, philosophical interpretations of it.
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Grace Seeker
12-02-2010, 06:01 PM
Whether meant in the way it developed or not, we still appreciate the request for information and opportunity to share. Hopefully we've provided the other information you sought as well.
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Perseveranze
12-02-2010, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You're going to have to go longer in your explanation. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to Muslims making their case that there is a second crusade going on today. What you see as history repeating itself, I don't see. The motives, locations, and participants today are different.
youtube.com/watch?v=Jvq_yigisnA
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titus
12-03-2010, 06:07 PM
I got to the part of the video where he describes what non-Muslims mean when they say fundamentalist. Once he proved himself wrong on that point I stopped listening.
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Grace Seeker
12-03-2010, 07:06 PM
And I watched it and still have no idea how this relates to the explanation I requested.


But talk about gross generalizations. He frequently phrases things as such: "They are...." "They think...." they this and they that without ever identifying who "they" is. He simply presents it as if the "they"s he references can apply to the whole of western societies, cultures, nations, governments, and people. On one occassion even quotes something directly, without naming the source of the quote. It makes a big difference if the person he is quoting is a government official or a political talking-head pundit, but there is no way to know from his presentation.


I reiterate. One thing this non-Muslims wants from Muslims is for Muslims to quit speaking of non-Muslims as if we are all part of some monolithic entity.
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IAmZamzam
12-03-2010, 07:28 PM
Only if all the non-Muslims attacking Islam in similar ways will also stop looking at Muslims as a single monolithic entity. And you know what kind of day in hell it will be when either occurs.
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sister herb
12-03-2010, 10:32 PM
Some days ago I read new about assasination thread against wikileak leader from senior advisor and strategist to the Canadian Prime Minister.

So Wikileak leader may not be muslim neither that advisor. Are they possible christians or what? Can I say asking to kill someone is wrong even it is not religion but seems so political matter?

*confused*
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Grace Seeker
12-03-2010, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Only if all the non-Muslims attacking Islam in similar ways will also stop looking at Muslims as a single monolithic entity. And you know what kind of day in hell it will be when either occurs.
Not all non-Muslims do this. But Islam itself likes to teach that there is one Ummah. The speaker in the video that Perseveranze wanted me to watch actually seems to promote the idea that the world can be divided into Muslims and non-Muslims and one of his prime objections was that he saw the "they" he was attacking as seeking to divide Muslims into different smaller groups. So, be advised that it isn't just non-Muslims that you have to convince that Muslims are not a monolithic entity.

But as far as your point goes on this forum, I agree. We non-Muslims who are here need to recognize individuality within Islam as much as we ask it from Muslims. I don't think we have to wait for cold day in hell for that to happen. Start where we can, with you and me, and then see if others will join us.
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Grace Seeker
12-03-2010, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Some days ago I read new about assasination thread against wikileak leader from senior advisor and strategist to the Canadian Prime Minister.

So Wikileak leader may not be muslim neither that advisor. Are they possible christians or what? Can I say asking to kill someone is wrong even it is not religion but seems so political matter?

*confused*
I'm confused as well, Sister Harb.

I know very little about wikileaks. I've not read any substantatiated reports of there being serious threats made against Julian Assange, other than that he is wanted in Sweden on a rape charge. It would of course be wrong to threaten him with assassination, let alone to plot to actually do it. It matters not what his politics nor his religion are. And not only can you say that, you already have.

But my confusion, Sister Harb, is not with the above details, but rather that I don't see what any of that has to do with the topic at hand.
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Ramadhan
12-03-2010, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But Islam itself likes to teach that there is one Ummah
I very much doubt the non-muslims who normally attack islam would know that 'Islam itself likes to teach that there is one ummah".
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Argamemnon
12-04-2010, 01:03 AM
Non-Muslims want us to abandon our religion and become like them; that's what the Quran says.

Secondly, most non-Muslims (including non-Muslims on this forum) don't realize that most conflicts throughout the world are caused by the West and not by Muslims. Muslims are the victims of western aggression and state terrorism and various forms of "interventions" - the latest example being the assasination of Iranian nuclear scientists :raging:
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Perseveranze
12-04-2010, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Not all non-Muslims do this. But Islam itself likes to teach that there is one Ummah. The speaker in the video that Perseveranze wanted me to watch actually seems to promote the idea that the world can be divided into Muslims and non-Muslims and one of his prime objections was that he saw the "they" he was attacking as seeking to divide Muslims into different smaller groups. So, be advised that it isn't just non-Muslims that you have to convince that Muslims are not a monolithic entity
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I think what he's saying is that the Muslims are already divided at this moment in time, and the western Governments want to keep it that way, ever since (I think nearly 80 years ago) when the Last Caliphate fell. There are alot of organizations and campaigns at the moment that are trying to promote support for a United Ummah under a single Caliphate once again.

This campaign (though not as strong right now) really peaked during Gaza Strip bombings by Isreal. 1.5 Billion people in the world first and foremost turned to the Muslim Leaders to in any way stop the injustice from happening, but because of division and disunity, nothing happened. This is just an example mixed with a personal opinion, that at this moment in time, the Ummah is not as united as it would've liked to be and governments of the world are happy to keep it that way, I'm sure they have their own reasons for this.
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Argamemnon
12-04-2010, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The second thing that we want is more Muslims who represent their faith in the manner as did the Islamic community this past weekend in Portland, OR. For those who may not have heard the news an Oregon teen attempted to blow up a car bomb at a large Christmastree-lighting ceremony. The teen actually carried out his plans, but was thwarted because the bomb that he attempted to detonate was a fake he had actually obtained, not from co-conspirators, but from the FBI. Reports are the Muslim community in Portland assisted the FBI and issued a strong condemnation of the terrorist attempt.

As the father of the Iman at the mosque which the young man would occassionally attend said, that Mohamud was e-mailing someone in Pakistan shows nobody in the U.S. supported his extremist ideology. "He's reaching for people outside because he doesn't find any terrorists here." It might seem obvious and something that should go without saying, but we need to hear that as well.
There are 4-5 million orphans in Iraq due to U.S state terrorism.
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Ramadhan
12-04-2010, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Secondly, most non-Muslims (including non-Muslims on this forum) don't realize that most conflicts throughout the world are caused by the West and not by Muslims.
Exactly.
If you scrutinize world history from 0 AD to December 2010 AD, you will be able to see very clearly who killed the most, who plundered the most, who destroyed the most.
And yet, these days we often hear that Islam teaches violence and that muslims are murderous.

very sick and cunning, eh?

As Allah SWT says in the Qur'an, we need to re-check and confirm the news if it is coming from kaafirun, munafiqqun or musyrikin, and should not take it at face value especially if it is related to or has any impacts on muslims well-being.
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Argamemnon
12-04-2010, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Agreed, though on rare occassions a person has shown up (and then usually disappeared) who did express support for them.
Just like millions of Americans supporting American terror in Afghanistan and Iraq and elsewhere?
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Argamemnon
12-04-2010, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Exactly.
If you scrutinize world history from 0 AD to December 2010 AD, you will be able to see very clearly who killed the most, who plundered the most, who destroyed the most.
And yet, these days we often hear that Islam teaches violence and that muslims are murderous.

very sick and cunning, eh?

As Allah SWT says in the Qur'an, we need to re-check and confirm the news if it is coming from kaafirun, munafiqqun or musyrikin, and should not take it at face value especially if it is related to or has any impacts on muslims well-being.

Exactly brother naidamar, well said. Muslims should never expose themselves to western media or else they will be brainwashed and become their servant...

Whenever westerners speak about "Islamic terrorism" we should immediately confront them with facts about western terrorism and aggression, which is the root cause of most conflicts. Islamic terrorism (in most cases) is merely a reaction to western terrorism.

:w:
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Grace Seeker
12-04-2010, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
There are 4-5 million orphans in Iraq due to U.S state terrorism.

This non-Muslim would like Muslims to speak closer to the truth when it comes to the blame they cast on the US. Most of the deaths in Iraq where NOT the result of the US military, but of Sunni on Shia and Shia on Sunni violence.


Also when casting about stats such as this, please provide sources, and where possible links to those sources. I've seen some quotes blaming the US for more deaths than people who actually lived in the country.
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Grace Seeker
12-04-2010, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Whenever westerners speak about "Islamic terrorism" we should immediately confront them with facts about western terrorism and aggression, which is the root cause of most conflicts. Islamic terrorism (in most cases) is merely a reaction to western terrorism.

:w:
That sounds like something for the "What do Muslims want from non-Muslims?" thread.
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Grace Seeker
12-04-2010, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Non-Muslims want us to abandon our religion and become like them; that's what the Quran says.
Then the Qur'an is in error. Most non-Muslims couldn't care less about Islam either pro or con.
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IAmZamzam
12-04-2010, 04:05 AM
No, Argamemnon is in error. Read the Koran more carefully: it's talking about very specific groups of people.
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Grace Seeker
12-04-2010, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
No, Argamemnon is in error. Read the Koran more carefully: it's talking about very specific groups of people.

Well, that probably is true. There are some groups of people who would like to see everyone abandon all religions. And even more than that who would like to see Muslims abandon their religion. Indeed, while I would rather have a person be a devout Muslim than a nominal Chirstian, I also would rather see a person a devout Christian above all else. I think that you would similarly like to see all the world become devout Muslims, would you not? Nothing particularly revelatory about that.
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Thucydides1987
12-04-2010, 06:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
Non-Muslims want us to abandon our religion and become like them; that's what the Quran says.
Okay, you need to stop looking at what the Quran says, and look at the world and the people around you to understand what they want.

Westerners don't want you to abandon your religion; maybe the crazy fundamentalist evangalical Christians do, or the hardcore anti-theists. Most westerners want Muslims, or any other peoples of any non-Western background who live in the West, to respect their cultural and political institutions, and to participate in them along with everyone else! Do you know how much we hate non-Westerners spitefully making stereotypes and generalizations about the "corrupt" and "immoral" culture of the West?

I sympathize with ordinary Muslims who are being discriminated and treated presumptuously like terrorists, but at the same time I cannot ignore the way other Muslims think of Westerners as morally inferior and deserve to be treated with contempt, just because they behave contrary to the Quran.
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Pygoscelis
12-04-2010, 07:54 PM
^ Well put. And welcome to the forums.
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IAmZamzam
12-04-2010, 08:05 PM
I think we could all use one of these.
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Thucydides1987
12-04-2010, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
^ Well put. And welcome to the forums.
Thanks, man.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I think we could all use one of these.
Lol, I think we may, yes :p
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Grace Seeker
12-04-2010, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I think we could all use one of these.
Now, there's someone who knows what non-Muslims want. Enjoying my lollipop as I type. Thanks!
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Ramadhan
12-05-2010, 04:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
This non-Muslim would like Muslims to speak closer to the truth when it comes to the blame they cast on the US. Most of the deaths in Iraq where NOT the result of the US military, but of Sunni on Shia and Shia on Sunni violence.

Most of the deaths in Iraq may not be *directly* caused by the US military, although we may never know for sure.
But who is directly responsible for causing the current mess that is Iraq? US government is it not?

So you think Iraq mess is caused by Sunni-Shia violence, eh?
Next, maybe you'll be saying Afghanistan mess was caused by the talibans.
Or Palestinian occupation was caused by Hamas.

As I have said in my previous post, you only have to scrutinize world history to see who has been the repeating transgessors, but deceivingly claim the opposite.
I did not have to wait long before GS come up and blamed the iraqis as the bad guys.
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ICYUNVMe
12-05-2010, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Most of the deaths in Iraq may not be *directly* caused by the US military, although we may never know for sure.
But who is directly responsible for causing the current mess that is Iraq? US government is it not?

So you think Iraq mess is caused by Sunni-Shia violence, eh?
Next, maybe you'll be saying Afghanistan mess was caused by the talibans.
Or Palestinian occupation was caused by Hamas.

As I have said in my previous post, you only have to scrutinize world history to see who has been the repeating transgessors, but deceivingly claim the opposite.
I did not have to wait long before GS come up and blamed the iraqis as the bad guys.
The United States involves themselves in these regions to protect our own country from continued attacks. Trust me when I tell you that NO American wants to be in the middle east unnecessarily. If Muslims stood up and defended rationality and reason, and therefore fought against those Muslim fundamentalists who do harm to people around the world as well as the reputation of Muslims around the world, then the US would have no need to interfere. Just based on outward appearances however, that lack of action on the part of the Muslim community has been perceived as an alliance with those fundamentalists.

When that crazy guy was planning on holding his Burn a Qu'ran day, EVERYONE in the US stood up and told him to knock it off, because we all knew it was wrong, and we don't want to be associated with people who are willingly doing harm to America's reputation.

What do I want from Muslims?

Accountability.
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IAmZamzam
12-05-2010, 06:13 PM
Hold the United States government and military accountable for its own horrible actions, then.

Every country is corrupt (i.e. its leaders are). Hello?
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aadil77
12-05-2010, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
The United States involves themselves in these regions to protect our own country from continued attacks.
Sorry, what 'continued attacks' or any were you getting from iraq or afghanistan?

If Muslims stood up and defended rationality and reason
'rationality' is you don't go and kill millions just to save a few who were never at risk in the first place
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Lynx
12-05-2010, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
The United States involves themselves in these regions to protect our own country from continued attacks. Trust me when I tell you that NO American wants to be in the middle east unnecessarily. If Muslims stood up and defended rationality and reason, and therefore fought against those Muslim fundamentalists who do harm to people around the world as well as the reputation of Muslims around the world, then the US would have no need to interfere. Just based on outward appearances however, that lack of action on the part of the Muslim community has been perceived as an alliance with those fundamentalists.
I don't think you've got your history right. There are attacks against Americans primarily because of the continuous meddling of the United States in places where it does not belong. For example, consider USA's role in the Iraq-Iran conflict or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; do you think if USA did not so earnestly support Israel in everything it does that there would be as much animosity towards the US? Or do you think if USA did not fund Saddam's killing of thousands of Iranians that maybe Iran wouldn't call USA the 'great satan'.


When that crazy guy was planning on holding his Burn a Qu'ran day, EVERYONE in the US stood up and told him to knock it off, because we all knew it was wrong, and we don't want to be associated with people who are willingly doing harm to America's reputation.
I am pretty sure most Muslims here would stand up against public Bible burning...nevertheless, America is a funny place; you have open minded individuals who genuinely believe in essential freedoms like freedom of religion and expression etc and separation of church and state, while at the same time you have close minded backwards fundamentalist types that advocate Israel's oppression of the Palestinians on the basis that the Bible promised the Jews the land of Israel. Unfortunately the latter types of people have too much influence in American politics.

What do I want from Muslims?

Accountability.
Yeah, some Muslims, if not a lot of them, have a bad habit of supporting their brothers and sisters despite the insane and ridiculous things committed by them in their own countries.
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ICYUNVMe
12-05-2010, 09:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
I don't think you've got your history right. There are attacks against Americans primarily because of the continuous meddling of the United States in places where it does not belong. For example, consider USA's role in the Iraq-Iran conflict or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; do you think if USA did not so earnestly support Israel in everything it does that there would be as much animosity towards the US? Or do you think if USA did not fund Saddam's killing of thousands of Iranians that maybe Iran wouldn't call USA the 'great satan'.

You're correct here, to a degree. The Iran-Iraq conflict, from America's point of view, was a proxy war with the Soviet Union. Each side was supplying weapons to people we didn't even consider friends in order to prevent the spread of ideologies we didn't agree with. "Containment", is what we called it. It was a stupid idea, I agree with you there. Regarding Israel, the US will always be an ally of Israel. However, I do agree that not everything the Israelis do is justified or intelligent. However, that issue is very complicated and would totally derail this thread. In short, both sides have made many, many mistakes.

Iranian leadership considers the US to be the Great Satan for many reasons. Its simply untrue that all of that has to do with the Iran-Iraq conflict. Ahmadinejad doesn't like the fact that they allied with Israel. He's not a fan of democracy, obviously. He is basically the public face of all Muslims who consider the West to be immoral and corrupt; a vile entity that needs to be wiped clean. There's no room for negotiations with a guy like that, and that's a shame. Iran used to be a wonderful country, and Tehran used to be an amazing city.


format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
I am pretty sure most Muslims here would stand up against public Bible burning...nevertheless, America is a funny place; you have open minded individuals who genuinely believe in essential freedoms like freedom of religion and expression etc and separation of church and state, while at the same time you have close minded backwards fundamentalist types that advocate Israel's oppression of the Palestinians on the basis that the Bible promised the Jews the land of Israel. Unfortunately the latter types of people have too much influence in American politics.

Crazy people are always the loudest. Its a shame. However, most Americans are in favor of a two-state solution, which is what it should have been from the very beginning. Anyone who chooses to use the Bible or the Qur'an as a means of determining political boundaries or anything of that nature is going to make progress very difficult.
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Mike3449
12-05-2010, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
They might be many whose support USA acts in Iraq and Afghanistan and are non-muslims. I see kind of acts as crusades of our time, not just 500+ years before.

Yes yes for example I support Talibans and Hamas too, but I don´t see they have anything to do with any 9/11 or 7/7 happenings (I don´t even know what is 7/7).

Is it better if we stop totally keep here any kind of political discussions if it makes some of our sensitive non-muslim members feels themselves unfomfortable when they have to read what kind of crimes against humanity some non-muslims have done and are doing every single day? And discuss about Islam only?

As a non-Muslim I find it difficult to understand anyone supporting the Taliban. The Taliban, even without 9/11, are an example of a government that suppresses all freedom. No TV, of course no internet. No opinion. It's very hard to support such a thing. War or no war. Anytime, it would be hard to support. If I can ask, what is it that makes you support them?
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sister herb
12-05-2010, 10:51 PM
What all this thread has to with USA policy at all?

What do non-Muslims want from Muslims?

I am muslim but not from USA. I am European.
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Mike3449
12-05-2010, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
What all this thread has to with USA policy at all?

What do non-Muslims want from Muslims?

I am muslim but not from USA. I am European.

I was just responding to what you said previously.

As a non-Muslim all I would ask from Muslims is to discuss things with me and help me understand Islam which would help me have a more grounded opinion. Based on knowledge.
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Perseveranze
12-05-2010, 11:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mike3449
I was just responding to what you said previously.

As a non-Muslim all I would ask from Muslims is to discuss things with me and help me understand Islam which would help me have a more grounded opinion. Based on knowledge.
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Inshallah you'll be able to know the true Islam :) Feel free to make a thread regarding any queries you have.
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Mike3449
12-05-2010, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Inshallah you'll be able to know the true Islam :) Feel free to make a thread regarding any queries you have.

I used to belong to MWU which was a Progressive (Leftist) Islamic Forum.

Some good folks there and we discussed Politics as well as religion.

It's very hard for me to base opinions on what the media offer. Not just about Islam, but about everything. All they really offer are talking heads and they argue and they expect you to believe whatever side you want to believe, for whatever reason. And, people do just that.

In our current circumstances, the war, it is very important to have an opinion that is as correct as possible. Also, our leaders must have correct opinions. It is the lack thereof that has led us to our current troubles. I believe that if our leaders had a good understanding of Islam we could have avoided all of our current troubles.
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Ramadhan
12-06-2010, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
The United States involves themselves in these regions to protect our own country from continued attacks.
How do The United States protect its country by attacking, invading and occupying other foreign states?
Please enlighten us.

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Trust me when I tell you that NO American wants to be in the middle east unnecessarily
Is that why The US government was so gung-ho in attacking and invading, and creating lies in order to justify the invasion?

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
If Muslims stood up and defended rationality and reason, and therefore fought against those Muslim fundamentalists who do harm to people around the world as well as the reputation of Muslims around the world, then the US would have no need to interfere. Just based on outward appearances however, that lack of action on the part of the Muslim community has been perceived as an alliance with those fundamentalists.
Have you actually ever lived in any muslim countries?
Please provide evidence to support your assertion above.

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
When that crazy guy was planning on holding his Burn a Qu'ran day, EVERYONE in the US stood up and told him to knock it off, because we all knew it was wrong, and we don't want to be associated with people who are willingly doing harm to America's reputation.
Is that why everyone in the US is so excited and happy when a very peaceful group of muslims decided to build a house of worship which also serve as community centre in downtown NYC?

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
What do I want from Muslims?

Accountability.
What do I want from non-muslims?

less bull**** and hypocrisy.
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IAmZamzam
12-06-2010, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Is that why everyone in the US is so excited and happy when a very peaceful group of muslims decided to build a house of worship which also serve as community centre in downtown NYC?
Not everyone in the U.S., not by far. It was a source of huge controversy, which alone is appalling enough, but at least it was there.
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ICYUNVMe
12-06-2010, 03:12 AM
I'd be glad to do my best to answer your questions:

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
How do The United States protect its country by attacking, invading and occupying other foreign states? Please enlighten us.
Groups such as the Taliban that exercised a great deal of control in Afghanistan enabled terrorist cells to flourish, and promoted an ideology of hatred that I'm sure most moderate Muslims would disagree with. The idea is: removing those influences removes a portion of the threat. (And its not an "occupation". Its temporary, until control can be safely turned over to the citizens. And I know deep down, you know that to be true).


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Is that why The US government was so gung-ho in attacking and invading, and creating lies in order to justify the invasion?

No rational people wish to kill innocents. Rational people are never "gung-ho" for wars. Sometimes people make mistakes, as was the case with Iraq, as it turns out. But you go on the best information you have at the time. Regardless, I don't think anyone was too fond of Saddam anyway. Not that that justifies it, but I'm just sayin'.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Have you actually ever lived in any muslim countries? Please provide evidence to support your assertion above.

Not a chance... And that really wouldn't change anything anyway. You can't provide proof for conjecture. All you can do is look at patterns. So, I have my assertions, and you have yours. We can disagree on that. Doesn't really matter to me. Though I do think that nearly everyone in the West would appreciate a more unified stand against radicals within the fold of Islam. It would do us a lot of good AND would do a lot of good for ALL of the Muslims around the world who genuinely do want peace.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Is that why everyone in the US is so excited and happy when a very peaceful group of muslims decided to build a house of worship which also serve as community centre in downtown NYC?

No one in the US has suggested that the group of Muslims building the mosque and religious center near the WTC site doesn't have the RIGHT to do it. Of course, in America, they do. However, is it the SMARTEST thing to do? No, it isn't. And given the sensitivity of the situation and the area in question, it would have been taken as a very noble gesture to move it to a different location. Reverse the roles, and consider how a Muslim community would feel if a group of crazy evangelicals destroyed a small town, and then decided to erect a church nearby.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
What do I want from non-muslims? less bull**** and hypocrisy.

I'll have my people call your people. We'll get it done. Lets do lunch.
Reply

جوري
12-06-2010, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
The United States involves themselves in these regions to protect our own country from continued attacks.
You call inside attacks a cause to invade sovereign nations?
Trust me when I tell you that NO American wants to be in the middle east unnecessarily.
I doubt that very much.. it is lucrative to be a warmonger!

If Muslims stood up and defended rationality and reason,
One wonders of your definition of 'rationality' and 'reason' is it a subjective per capita thing of a global sentiment?
and therefore fought against those Muslim fundamentalists who do harm to people around the world as well as the reputation of Muslims around the world, then the US would have no need to interfere.
Why should anyone take the U.S's word on whom it deems a 'fundamentalist'--rather what does the term mean all together?

Just based on outward appearances however, that lack of action on the part of the Muslim community has been perceived as an alliance with those fundamentalists.
What would you like to have done?
When that crazy guy was planning on holding his Burn a Qu'ran day, EVERYONE in the US stood up and told him to knock it off, because we all knew it was wrong, and we don't want to be associated with people who are willingly doing harm to America's reputation.
really 'everybody' stood against him? or were they simply fearful of retaliation.. fear seems to be the biggest motivator of the under-educated WOULDN'T YOU AGREE?

What do I want from Muslims?

Accountability.
Will you take accountability for the The stealth-crusade or are christian nutters exempt from hooliganism and terrorism?

all the best
Reply

جوري
12-06-2010, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Groups such as the Taliban that exercised a great deal of control in Afghanistan enabled terrorist cells to flourish, and promoted an ideology of hatred that I'm sure most moderate Muslims would disagree with. The idea is: removing those influences removes a portion of the threat. (And its not an "occupation". Its temporary, until control can be safely turned over to the citizens. And I know deep down, you know that to be true).

One country's 'terrorists' is another country's freedom fighters.. There is NO such thing as a 'moderate Muslim' you are either a good Muslim or a bad Muslim..
Afghanistan has been and will be the death of empires as early as was recorded by history:

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...ard-of-empires

I doubt the new century's identification tags and puerile description is going to bring a different outcome for the U.S' accomplishments in that region-- it will go down the same path as other nutters before it.. with or without the help of those alleged 'moderate Muslims' and well the rest of us are really enjoying it unravel..
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IAmZamzam
12-06-2010, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
No rational people wish to kill innocents. Rational people are never "gung-ho" for wars. Sometimes people make mistakes, as was the case with Iraq, as it turns out. But you go on the best information you have at the time.
Since when was the government rational?!

No one in the US has suggested that the group of Muslims building the mosque and religious center near the WTC site doesn't have the RIGHT to do it. Of course, in America, they do. However, is it the SMARTEST thing to do? No, it isn't. And given the sensitivity of the situation and the area in question, it would have been taken as a very noble gesture to move it to a different location. Reverse the roles, and consider how a Muslim community would feel if a group of crazy evangelicals destroyed a small town, and then decided to erect a church nearby.
I call bull. I call serious bull. Not only would it not be the same evangelicals building the church (indeed, these evangelicals probably hate the ones who did the destroying at least as much as you do), but what is "smart" is not even the issue. In fact, it sounds a lot like the distinction is nothing more than an excuse for disapproval. TONS of people have been saying that we Muslims have no right to build a mosque there, just because eleven bad apples out of a billion happened to go rotten within a certain number of blocks in distance. I am not going to debate this with you. Though I'm sure you'll still try to debate it with me, which is sad.
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Ramadhan
12-06-2010, 04:21 AM
Just asking here, are you by any chance working for Fox News?

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Groups such as the Taliban that exercised a great deal of control in Afghanistan enabled terrorist cells to flourish, and promoted an ideology of hatred that I'm sure most moderate Muslims would disagree with. The idea is: removing those influences removes a portion of the threat.
Can you please provide evidence how the Talibans enabled terorist cells to flourish?

and how do you measure that a certain country enable terrorist cells to grow?

and is that enough reason, to attack and invade a sovereign state just because they are not seen as capable in handling their interior affairs?

Another thing, your "logic" here does not apply to Iraq, because the reason given by the US govenrment for invading Iraq was that Iraq had "WMD"

By your admission, why has the US not attacked and invade north korea? North Korea is proven to have Nuclear weapon, and has been sending missiles to south korea and japan and has nuclear missiles with a range to attack the US.
There are plenty poor african countries who provide environment that "enable terrorist cells", so why has the US never attack and invade any of those countries?

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
(And its not an "occupation". Its temporary, until control can be safely turned over to the citizens. And I know deep down, you know that to be true).
So, in your language, if it is temporary, then it is not occupation?
Since when an occupation has to be permanent and lasting?


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
No rational people wish to kill innocents. Rational people are never "gung-ho" for wars. Sometimes people make mistakes, as was the case with Iraq, as it turns out. But you go on the best information you have at the time. Regardless, I don't think anyone was too fond of Saddam anyway. Not that that justifies it, but I'm just sayin'.
It seems you have an extremely short memory.
let me copy and paste my post which was in reply to your previous post:

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe View Post
Trust me when I tell you that NO American wants to be in the middle east unnecessarily

Is that why The US government was so gung-ho in attacking and invading, and creating lies in order to justify the invasion?
So, are you now saying that The US government is rational and only made mistakes when decided to to attack and invade Iraq?

Let me get one thing straight:
You think it was only a mistake when the US government lied to its teeth by saying Iraq has WMD and then sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers with full military might to a sovereign state who did not "breed terrorist cells" and who did not provoke attack to the USA?
who's irrational now?



format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Not a chance... And that really wouldn't change anything anyway. You can't provide proof for conjecture. All you can do is look at patterns. So, I have my assertions, and you have yours. We can disagree on that. Doesn't really matter to me. Though I do think that nearly everyone in the West would appreciate a more unified stand against radicals within the fold of Islam. It would do us a lot of good AND would do a lot of good for ALL of the Muslims around the world who genuinely do want peace.
As I suspect. No one who has lived in a muslim majority countries would ever think or say that way.



format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
No one in the US has suggested that the group of Muslims building the mosque and religious center near the WTC site doesn't have the RIGHT to do it. Of course, in America, they do. However, is it the SMARTEST thing to do? No, it isn't. And given the sensitivity of the situation and the area in question, it would have been taken as a very noble gesture to move it to a different location. Reverse the roles, and consider how a Muslim community would feel if a group of crazy evangelicals destroyed a small town, and then decided to erect a church nearby.

You elevate yourself to another level of bull and phoniness.
Is the group that is building cordoba house the same as the one who is accused of destroying the towers?


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
I'll have my people call your people. We'll get it done. Lets do lunch.
Sure. Make sure your people call mine only after christians, jews and other non-muslims stop killing my brothers and sisters in Afghanistan, Iraq and Palestine.
Reply

ICYUNVMe
12-06-2010, 04:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


One country's 'terrorists' is another country's freedom fighters.. There is NO such thing as a 'moderate Muslim' you are either a good Muslim or a bad Muslim..
Afghanistan has been and will be the death of empires as early as was recorded by history:


I doubt the new century's identification tags and puerile description is going to bring a different outcome for the U.S' accomplishments in that region-- it will go down the same path as other nutters before it.. with or without the help of those alleged 'moderate Muslims' and well the rest of us are really enjoying it unravel..
I enjoy your rants as much as the next guy, but I won't be responding to them. Sorry.
Reply

ICYUNVMe
12-06-2010, 04:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I call bull. I call serious bull. Not only would it not be the same evangelicals building the church (indeed, these evangelicals probably hate the ones who did the destroying at least as much as you do), but what is "smart" is not even the issue. In fact, it sounds a lot like the distinction is nothing more than an excuse for disapproval. TONS of people have been saying that we Muslims have no right to build a mosque there, just because eleven bad apples out of a billion happened to go rotten within a certain number of blocks in distance. I am not going to debate this with you. Though I'm sure you'll still try to debate it with me, which is sad.
No, I'm not here to debate. I'm not here to tell you what you should think. Personally, I don't care. I was sharing my view in relation to the comments presented to me. But your input is appreciated.
Reply

ICYUNVMe
12-06-2010, 05:07 AM
You need to lighten up a little, dude. This is a forum. Not politics. I'm not here to challenge your views on the world, nor do I expect this thread to change it. Take it down a notch. To answer your questions as best as I can:

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Just asking here, are you by any chance working for Fox News?
No.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Can you please provide evidence how the Talibans enabled terorist cells to flourish? and how do you measure that a certain country enable terrorist cells to grow? and is that enough reason, to attack and invade a sovereign state just because they are not seen as capable in handling their interior affairs? Another thing, your "logic" here does not apply to Iraq, because the reason given by the US govenrment for invading Iraq was that Iraq had "WMD" By your admission, why has the US not attacked and invade north korea? North Korea is proven to have Nuclear weapon, and has been sending missiles to south korea and japan and has nuclear missiles with a range to attack the US. There are plenty poor african countries who provide environment that "enable terrorist cells", so why has the US never attack and invade any of those countries?
There are a million sources of information regarding the Taliban. You would be in the minority of Muslims if you felt this wasn't actually true. You don't have to look far. I'm not here to do research. Regarding Iraq, I said as much in the last post. You must have missed it. When North Korea shoots a missile at the US, you can be sure they will be in trouble. As soon as the US discovers that terror cells from Africa are coming into the US to blow things up, they will do something about that as well.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
So, in your language, if it is temporary, then it is not occupation? Since when an occupation has to be permanent and lasting?
More accurately, its about intent. The US does not have the intent to "occupy" countries in the middle east. But if you end up removing the power structure that is already in place, then you have to settle things down, have the people create a government, have them create a police force to protect themselves, and then you can leave. Those things take a little time. If you just cut the head off the snake and leave, there will be chaos, and things will be worse than they already are.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
So, are you now saying that The US government is rational and only made mistakes when decided to to attack and invade Iraq? Let me get one thing straight: You think it was only a mistake when the US government lied to its teeth by saying Iraq has WMD and then sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers with full military might to a sovereign state who did not "breed terrorist cells" and who did not provoke attack to the USA? who's irrational now?
People and governments make mistakes. It is understandable, as it has been the case for a century now, that the US get held to a different standard than the rest of the world. I would like nothing more than to have the powers that be operate in a perfect manner. But that's not possible. Regarding Iraq, you can look at it and say they purposely lied to start a war, or you can look at it and say they thought they had good evidence, but it turns out they were wrong. I don't intend to convince you of either position.


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
As I suspect. No one who has lived in a muslim majority countries would ever think or say that way.
If you don't mind, could you explain to me what living in a Muslim country as to do with standing up against the minority of Muslims who wish to do harm to the reputation of Islam as a whole?


format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
You elevate yourself to another level of bull and phoniness. Is the group that is building cordoba house the same as the one who is accused of destroying the towers?
That is uncalled for. You're very hostile for no reason. I haven't called you any names..... Watch yourself.

No, it isn't the same group, but that is not the point. There is a sensitivity involved. Its a really simple concept. It doesn't matter if its the same group. Its the perception that bothers people and no matter how you want to rationalize these things by saying its not the same group, you can't control people's emotions.
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جوري
12-06-2010, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
I enjoy your rants as much as the next guy, but I won't be responding to them. Sorry.

what do you call this? just the usual run of the mill braying of donkeys?

funny stuff.. when you want to not respond perhaps it would cement your views more to simply do so rather than getting the town crier (yourself) to announce it!

we had no expectation of a ''rational' response anyway given bog-standard diatribe you have shared thus far!

all the best
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Ramadhan
12-06-2010, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
You need to lighten up a little, dude. This is a forum. Not politics. I'm not here to challenge your views on the world, nor do I expect this thread to change it. Take it down a notch. To answer your questions as best as I can:
I didn't expect you to challenge my views on the world, anyway.
and FYI, this is a discussion forum, so of course when you spew a lot of bulls you will get challenged, so you might as well accustom yourself with it.

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
No.
You are not working for Fox news?
Blimey, your views here seem 100% regurgitated from Fox news.
Not even the US govt has those kind of views anymore, especially related how to deal with terrorism.

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
There are a million sources of information regarding the Taliban. You would be in the minority of Muslims if you felt this wasn't actually true. You don't have to look far. I'm not here to do research.
There are also a million sources of information regarding Taliban that do not conform to your views about them.
and how do you know that I am in the minority of muslims regarding opinion about the taliban?
It seems you have done nothing other than throwing a lot of prejudices against muslims since you joined this forum, and without any evidence or logic to back them up.

format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Regarding Iraq, I said as much in the last post. You must have missed it. When North Korea shoots a missile at the US, you can be sure they will be in trouble. As soon as the US discovers that terror cells from Africa are coming into the US to blow things up, they will do something about that as well.
Did you know that you just actually shot your argument to pieces?

You claimed that Iraq was attacked and invaded because the US government "think" it has WMD. That's the only reason.
And when I presented that North Korea has proven to have nuclear weapons and is clearly hostile towards to USA and has attacked two of US closest allies (japan and south koorea), you shifted your stance, and said that North Korea needed to attack the uS first.
Iraq had no WMD, and it wasnt attacking and had no plan and never attack the US, and yet it was invaded by the US.
Actually, I don't hope you will be able to see the double standards and hypocrisy, seeing that you have an abundant of those your own.


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
More accurately, its about intent. The US does not have the intent to "occupy" countries in the middle east.
I say the US has intent to occupy the countries in the middle east.


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
People and governments make mistakes. It is understandable, as it has been the case for a century now, that the US get held to a different standard than the rest of the world. I would like nothing more than to have the powers that be operate in a perfect manner. But that's not possible. Regarding Iraq, you can look at it and say they purposely lied to start a war, or you can look at it and say they thought they had good evidence, but it turns out they were wrong. I don't intend to convince you of either position.
People and government do make mistakes, however with regard to Iraq, you can say as much as you want and want to defend Bush, but clearly it was not a mistake.
recent evidence and articles coming to the surface in the past two years (some of them are chronicled in Vanity Fair mind you, not in some obscure muslims media) have shown that the plan to attack and invade Iraq had been made way way before, and even before 9/11. all the govt needed was an excuse.


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
If you don't mind, could you explain to me what living in a Muslim country as to do with standing up against the minority of Muslims who wish to do harm to the reputation of Islam as a whole?
The major thing that is feared by the westerners and against the principle of Islam with respect to the so-called muslim terrorist is suicide bombing. In Indonesia (the biggest muslim country in the world, FYI), many da'i and imams have frequently given lectures that explains 1. suicide is haram 2. killing innocent civilians is haram. However, defending one's honor and one's property and opposing transgessors is fard.


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
That is uncalled for. You're very hostile for no reason. I haven't called you any names
I am saying it as it is. No one is forcing you to be here.


format_quote Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
.... Watch yourself.
I don't like to watch myself, thank you.
DO YOU like to watch yourself?
Reply

Ramadhan
12-06-2010, 08:22 AM
ICYUNVMe, you can see this following thread, in order to see who are the most likely terrorists in US soil or in Europe:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...94-aren-t.html

another good advise for you: cut down on the number of hours spent watching Fox News.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-06-2010, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
What all this thread has to with USA policy at all?

What do non-Muslims want from Muslims?

I am muslim but not from USA. I am European.
It is a spin from answering questions that Muslims have put to non-Muslims as they counter our statements as to what non-Muslism want from Muslims.

A non-Muslims says: "We want Muslims to not condone terrorism." A Muslim responds: "Well, when will the USA quit advancing terrorism itself?" And suddenly the thread goes down that line.
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جوري
12-06-2010, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
A non-Muslims says: "We want Muslims to not condone terrorism." A Muslim responds: "Well, when will the USA quit advancing terrorism itself?" And suddenly the thread goes down that line.

then why start off with a faulty premise?
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Grace Seeker
12-06-2010, 06:46 PM
Non-Muslims want Muslims to recognize that though a lot of people may play the role of lemmings to one's government in the west, that this is not universally so and that there are other voices. For instance: "The Anarcho-Cynicalist"

(OK, really I just liked this article and thought others might as well. But I didn't want to start a new thread just for it, so I was looking for an excuse to post it somewhere and this seemed the best fit. :embarrass)
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sister herb
12-06-2010, 07:55 PM
Seems non-muslums want that muslims will condemn every bad things what some other muslims have done but don´t condemn bad things what some non-muslims have done.
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Grace Seeker
12-06-2010, 11:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
Seems non-muslums want that muslims will condemn every bad things what some other muslims have done but don´t condemn bad things what some non-muslims have done.

Already addressed in this very thread. But worth repeating:

1) While it would be nice to have bad things condemned, given the number of bad things that are done in this world everyday, I don't think it is fair to ask anyone to spend all of their time making such condemnations, you would never finish and you could never be aware of them all. However, I do believe it is fair to ask Muslims who become aware of a bad thing that is done in the name of Islam to at least not condone it. As a non-Muslim, I do ask that of Muslims who are serious about their faith.

I suspect those unwilling to agree to that are MINOs (Muslims In Name Only) and are more interested in political objectives for which they are willing to hijack Islam than persons who truly desire to follow Islam as a way of life. I suspect they have neglected internal jihad for other ends. And I fear that some who truly seek to follow Islam as a way of life are misled by these folk into condoning things that Islam itself does not.


2) I've tried to condemn bad things that I've seen non-Muslims do when appropriate. I've especially been atune to this when they were actions by either my government or people did things I disagreed with in the name of the faith I believe in. I've told the story too many times to repeat here that this is precisely what led me to this forum in the first place. So, I don't think it's true that non-Muslims don't condemn bad things that other non-Muslims have done. I know lots of cases of just such condemnations occuring. Some have even been cited by others in this thread.


3) Of course we have to each recognize that you and I may disagree as to what are and are not bad things. But I would like to think that our lists have enough in common that you would realize the truth of what I have said above.
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سيف الله
12-07-2010, 12:28 AM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker


I suspect those unwilling to agree to that are MINOs (Muslims In Name Only) and are more interested in political objectives for which they are willing to hijack Islam than persons who truly desire to follow Islam as a way of life. I suspect they have neglected internal jihad for other ends. And I fear that some who truly seek to follow Islam as a way of life are misled by these folk into condoning things that Islam itself does not.
What do you mean by 'political objectives'? If you mean mindless indiscriminate killing, hunger for power etc etc then yes I agree.

However palestinians struggling for statehood. Iraqis trying to create a free independent state. Or generally Arab/Muslims trying to free themselves from Uncle Sams boot (among many other boots). These goals are not incompatible with the Islamic faith.

Ive noticed a trend amongst certain segments of the Western media. That those who oppose or speak out against Western policy say in the middle east are 'hijacking' Islam.

Perhaps its an attempt by them to 'define' what it means to be a Muslim.

Have to say its much more subtle than the usual denuciations.
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Woodrow
12-07-2010, 12:49 AM
A reminder to all of us. There are 2 separate, similar but different threads. One thread (this one) is made for non-Muslims to say what they want from us The other thread http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...muslims-4.html is for us to say what we want from non-Muslims. Let us try to keep our replies on the appropriate thread.

Neither thread is intended to generate arguments or create a war zone. Just a chance for us to come to an understanding of what we each want. None of us will agree with all of the wants of the other. But let us try to understand why Muslims and non-Muslims differ and more specifically in what areas.

It is possible some goals may be similar, and could be something we all can work towards such as:

1. Peaceful dialogue

2. Disagreement without malice

3. Cessation of hostilities and animosities for entire groups because of the actions of some

4. Everybody being treated as people and not as labels.

These threads are not going to make any world shattering changes nor affect any forum rules. But, perhaps they will give all of us a time to reflect on if we are acting defensively or as aggressors. We all need to work on being able to defend without transgressing or attacking with unbridled malice, thinking it is defense.
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Grace Seeker
12-07-2010, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

What do you mean by 'political objectives'? If you mean mindless indiscriminate killing, hunger for power etc etc then yes I agree.

However palestinians struggling for statehood. Iraqis trying to create a free independent state. Or generally Arab/Muslims trying to free themselves from Uncle Sams boot (among many other boots). These goals are not incompatible with the Islamic faith.
What I mean by political objectives would include all of the above. It isn't the objective that is itself the problem (though certainly some could be), but rather the willingness to resort to unIslamic means to achieve them. That is why I said it is the hijacking of Islam. To claim to be Muslim, seeking an Islamic goal, but using means that are themselves unIslamic in nature is to be a Muslim in name only. For if Islam is a way of life, then it is also a way of achieving one's ends.

One could of course make similar complaints about many groups. And if you want to say that this is one of the problems with western powers in places like Iraq and Afghanistan -- that they claim to be democracies, but democracies forced on people who don't want it isn't being very democractic -- I won't argue with you. It doesn't change my answer to the question of what this non-Muslim wants of Muslims.

.
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mike3449
As a non-Muslim I find it difficult to understand anyone supporting the Taliban. The Taliban, even without 9/11, are an example of a government that suppresses all freedom. No TV, of course no internet. No opinion. It's very hard to support such a thing. War or no war. Anytime, it would be hard to support. If I can ask, what is it that makes you support them?
^ I would like to see an answer to this question. I do know that the Taliban does some limited humanitarian work (perhaps you could highlight that?), but beyond that what draws you to them?
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Zafran
12-07-2010, 07:49 PM
The people that agree with the Taleban and there views and ideas would support the Taleban - If you think that TV and Internet and stating opinions which have no bearing in reality is "freedom" then you realy have to rethink what "freedom" is. Watching TV on the couch for hours, surfing the internet for hours and talking crap is not a very good idea of "freedom" - its more like slavery to the internet, TV and meaningless talk.
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Pygoscelis
12-07-2010, 09:29 PM
Well then here is your chance. Dispel away. Show us the good views of the Taleban.
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Zafran
12-07-2010, 09:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well then here is your chance. Dispel away. Show us the good views of the Taleban.
what do you mean - I just told you that the a person would support the taleban if he or she agreed with them. The Poster that asked the question listed a no TV, opinions, and no internet - If a person agreed with the ideas of the taleban and saw them as good ideas then they would support the Taleban - Its not rocket science now is it.
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IAmZamzam
12-07-2010, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I just told you that the a person would support the taleban if he or she agreed with them. The Poster that asked the question listed a no TV, opinions, and no internet - If a person agreed with those ideas and saw them as good idea then they would support the Taleban
???

Agreeing with them about one, single thing means supporting them, does it???
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GuestFellow
12-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Salaam,

How come we are discussing about the Taliban?

:offtopic:
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Ansariyah
12-07-2010, 10:17 PM
oops wrong thread.
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Ansariyah
12-07-2010, 10:20 PM
oops wrong thread.
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Zafran
12-08-2010, 02:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
???

Agreeing with them about one, single thing means supporting them, does it???
what are you on - was one single thing listed?
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Darth Ultor
12-08-2010, 03:11 AM
To represent their faith as Muhammad did. Also to stop alienating themselves from other religions and cultures.
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Grace Seeker
12-08-2010, 05:28 PM
^^yeah, that last part is important.
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Ramadhan
12-08-2010, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
^^yeah, that last part is important
If not alienating from other religions and cultures means that muslims must partake in pagan celebrations, idol worships, homosexuality and adulteries/fornication approval/tolerance, riba-based finances, alcohol-fueled parties, then I'm afraid good muslims are not only not able to do that, but it is compulsory for all muslims to alienate ourselves from all those things.
But other than against a list of things haram to us, then yeah, we're all for cultures and stuff!
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سيف الله
12-08-2010, 06:39 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
^^yeah, that last part is important.
Actually the first part is more important because were Muslims :P

And the bro naidamar is right, on a personal note there is plenty to be impressed with other cultures/worldviews. Im not the type to 'look down' on other peoples way living or doing things. Im an accomodating kind of person (I hope).

Having said that there plenty of aspects of other cultures that Im not impressed with and has no place in the Islamic worldview. Some of been listed above, but we also have our 'own way' of doing things even if its 'unfashionable'. You guys are going to have to accept that.
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Grace Seeker
12-08-2010, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam



Actually the first part is more important because were Muslims :P
As a Muslim, that first part would reasonably be more important to you. But as a non-Muslim the second part is more important to me. Muslims could divorce themselves completely from Muhammad, and while that would be ashame, as a non-Muslim that would not affect me nearly as much as if Muslims behaved in such a way as to alienate themselves from other religions and cultures.

As for being impressed or unimpressed with other cultures, that's not what I mean by not being alienated. Nor do I mean being in agreement with or practicing things done in other cultures or religions. That something has no place in the Islamic world does not mean that you have to alienate yourself from the culture or religion, or even more importantly the people, wherein those things are found.



from Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of ALIENATE

transitive verb
1: to make unfriendly, hostile, or indifferent especially where attachment formerly existed

2: to convey or transfer (as property or a right) usually by a specific act rather than the due course of law

3: to cause to be withdrawn or diverted

Examples of ALIENATE

  • He alienated most of his colleagues with his bad temper.
  • Her position on this issue has alienated many former supporters.
source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alienate




from a Thesaurus:
Verb1.alienate - arouse hostility or indifference in where there had formerly been love, affection, or friendliness; "She alienated her friends when she became fanatically religious" disaffect, estrange, alien
alter, change, modify - cause to change; make different; cause a transformation; "The advent of the automobile may have altered the growth pattern of the city"; "The discussion has changed my thinking about the issue"

drift apart, drift away - lose personal contact over time; "The two women, who had been roommates in college, drifted apart after they got married"

wean - detach the affections of
2.alienate - transfer property or ownership; "The will aliened the property to the heirs" alien
transfer - cause to change ownership; "I transferred my stock holdings to my children"
3.alienate - make withdrawn or isolated or emotionally dissociated; "the boring work alienated his employees" impress, strike, affect, move - have an emotional or cognitive impact upon; "This child impressed me as unusually mature"; "This behavior struck me as odd"

source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alienate


alienating - causing hostility or loss of friendliness; "her sudden alienating aloofness"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
alienation - the action of alienating; the action of causing to become unfriendly; "his behavior alienated the other students"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


I've been repeatedly told how once upon a time all peoples of all religions were able to live happily and peacefully together under Muslim rule. Well, just because there is no Caliphate doesn't mean that one needs to now be unfriendly or hostile to non-Muslims. We aren't asking you to become drunkards or carousers. Opposition to immoral behaviors we understand (some of us will even applaude), just don't withdraw to the point of setting yourself in opposition to people.
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سيف الله
12-08-2010, 07:35 PM
Salaam

Well again the first part is more important (respecting the prophets (pbuh) example) to me, in fact its fundamental to being a Muslim. Surprised after all this time being here you dont understand this.

Again as Brother naidamar there are aspects and practices of western society that are incompatible with a Muslim. Do you really think if a person is drunk I want to be around them? Really? Thats a stereotypical example but you get the point. Incidentally I do have non muslim friends and colleagues who drink yet they understand my reaction, they dont make a big fuss about it. You have your way of doing things, we have ours, accept it.

Nobody wants to set themselves in opposition to anyone unless they have [I]]good[/I reason to, and juding by the hostile media attention (among other things) you shouldnt be surprised at the 'wary' reaction by some.

Personally I dont have the urge to be nasty or unhelpful to people just because they are non muslims, seems strange to me.
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Grace Seeker
12-08-2010, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Well again the first part is more important (respecting the prophets (pbuh) example) to me, in fact its fundamental to being a Muslim. Surprised after all this time being here you dont understand this.
I do understand. What did I say about your previous statement?


format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As a Muslim, that first part would reasonably be more important to you.



Do you understand the nature of this thread? It's not asking: What is important to Muslims? Yeah, we know that the Sunnah would be important.

Rather, it's asking: What do non-Muslims want from Muslims? Now, if you don't care wha'ts important to us, then that could be part of the problem. But if you do care, then hear our actual response, don't tell us what you wish our response to have been. (Not listening can itself be an alienating behavior after all.)


format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Personally I dont have the urge to be nasty or unhelpful to people just because they are non muslims, seems strange to me.

That's great!! That's all that we were saying. Now if that can happen on the larger scale, and also be matched by non-Muslim attitudes toward Muslims, we will have a much better world.
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سيف الله
12-08-2010, 11:07 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker

Do you understand the nature of this thread? It's not asking: What is important to Muslims? Yeah, we know that the Sunnah would be important.

Rather, it's asking: What do non-Muslims want from Muslims? Now, if you don't care wha'ts important to us, then that could be part of the problem. But if you do care, then hear our actual response, don't tell us what you wish our response to have been. (Not listening can itself be an alienating behavior after all.)
Yes I understand that. If you want this thread to be monologue with everybody nodding compliantly like a parrot to your every suggestion then so be it, Ill withdraw.

Im not trying to get you to agree with me. You made a suggestion, Ive thought about it and gave a response. Im trying to be constructive, to see what problems your suggestion raises and if there is middle ground that can be occupied.

One could wish otherwise but theres no straightforward solutions to these problems.
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Darth Ultor
12-08-2010, 11:55 PM
Not all non-Muslims are lazy, wild drunks. Mormons don't drink either or partake in fornication and they interact with people of other faiths. I mean get out and make friends with Christians, Jews, and Atheists and allow your children to do so. Join in the democratic process. Get involved in national holidays (that don't have any haraam aspects). We live in a mostly tolerant society but people fear what they don't know. Show Islam as outreaching, friendly, and peaceful rather than engender the media portrayal of it as angry, humorless, and alienating.
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aadil77
12-09-2010, 12:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Not all non-Muslims are lazy, wild drunks. Mormons don't drink either or partake in fornication and they interact with people of other faiths. I mean get out and make friends with Christians, Jews, and Atheists and allow your children to do so. Join in the democratic process. Get involved in national holidays (that don't have any haraam aspects). We live in a mostly tolerant society but people fear what they don't know. Show Islam as outreaching, friendly, and peaceful rather than engender the media portrayal of it as angry, humorless, and alienating.
not all muslims isolate themselves from non-muslims

loads of us have non-muslim friends
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Grace Seeker
12-09-2010, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
not all muslims isolate themselves from non-muslims

loads of us have non-muslim friends
And aadil, you and others who have adopted this attitude and practice truly do help us non-Muslims to put a face on Islam. That very real face helps to teach us what Islam is really. When this happens enough no media message will ever be able to convince us that we have anything to fear from Islam. So, thanks for making the effort to not isolate nor insulate yourself and for putting up with some of the crap I expect you have to take before people get to know you as a person.

Keep it up!! I really does make a difference.
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CosmicPathos
12-09-2010, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Not all non-Muslims are lazy, wild drunks. Mormons don't drink either or partake in fornication and they interact with people of other faiths. I mean get out and make friends with Christians, Jews, and Atheists and allow your children to do so. Join in the democratic process. Get involved in national holidays (that don't have any haraam aspects). We live in a mostly tolerant society but people fear what they don't know. Show Islam as outreaching, friendly, and peaceful rather than engender the media portrayal of it as angry, humorless, and alienating.
I dont think I agree with that .... so we need to "reach out" to the kaafirs, who supposedly make up a "tolerant society," to convince them that we are not scary? wow. I thought they were tolerant in the first place, as you mentioned, and we wont need to do any reaching out? there is an inherent contradiction in the properties you have ascribed to the society.

you are telling me ( i am a Muslim) to make friends with atheists, the very people who reject the God I believe in and live for? what is this? Tomorrow you will tell me to go and make friends with a person who, God forbid, murdered someone very dear to me? And Allah is dearer to me than this person who got murdered!
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Ramadhan
12-09-2010, 01:56 AM
To all non-muslims (and I mean christians and jews) who like nothing than for muslims to be fond of you and like you, you will get your wish, as prophet Muhammad SAW said it is a sign of the end of times:

The Prophet (saas) said, “Surely you will follow the ways, of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e. inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a lizard, you too would follow them," We said, “O Allah's Messenger! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, “Whom else?"
(Bukhari)
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Tyrion
12-09-2010, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
you are telling me ( i am a Muslim) to make friends with atheists, the very people who reject the God I believe in and live for? what is this? Tomorrow you will tell me to go and make friends with a person who, God forbid, murdered someone very dear to me? And Allah is dearer to me than this person who got murdered!
Who knows, it might do you some good. :p I don't think he means for you to go out and seek the friendship of those who are actually against Islam, but I think you definitely should try and keep friendships with all kinds of people... Believe it or not, not all atheists/Christians/non-Muslims are out to get us... Most of my friends are non Muslim, and we've never had any problems. They respect my beliefs, and I respect theirs. Some of the best religious discussions I've ever had have been with them. :p

To be totally honest, I think people who try really hard to distance themselves from those who have opposing beliefs end up becoming too closed minded about things... Not all people, but it seems to happen to some. Again, I'm not saying you should go out and seek an atheist BFF, but a few casual friendships might be beneficial...
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CosmicPathos
12-09-2010, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Who knows, it might do you some good. :p I don't think he means for you to go out and seek the friendship of those who are actually against Islam, but I think you definitely should try and keep friendships with all kinds of people... Believe it or not, not all atheists/Christians/non-Muslims are out to get us... Most of my friends are non Muslim, and we've never had any problems. They respect my beliefs, and I respect theirs. Some of the best religious discussions I've ever had have been with them. :p

To be totally honest, I think people who try really hard to distance themselves from those who have opposing beliefs end up becoming too closed minded about things... Not all people, but it seems to happen to some. Again, I'm not saying you should go out and seek an atheist BFF, but a few casual friendships might be beneficial...
wow ... self righteousness.

so people who dont seek friendships of kufaar, they become narrow-minded! How do you define narrow-mindedness? Is it narrow-minded to tell an atheist that he is wrong in his logic? Or would you want us to have acknowledge that he (atheist) is right in his position to reject God ....

So what if you had most philosophical discussions with atheists? I realize that I wasted those years of me life discussing this with atheists, I found them to be narrow-minded arrogant bigots who actually used scientific method to deny and disrespect people's beliefs (surprisingly, they were not contributing much to human scientific knowledge through academia!!!!) ....

I had most philosophical discussions with myself, with other Muslims .... i dont need an atheist to stimulate my mental growth.

I never said atheists are "out there to get to me." Probably they are not as they cant even defend themselves except by ridiculing our position and hiding theirs under the facade of pseudo-rationalism and propaganda such as banners on buses "God probably does not exist." Even in that statement, "probably" actually works against them ....

Atheists are the most arrogant bunch of liars I've seen, after the Egyptian Coptic Christians.

And no, I'd rather die in depression than go out with an atheist to chill out in the park.
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Darth Ultor
12-09-2010, 01:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I dont think I agree with that .... so we need to "reach out" to the kaafirs, who supposedly make up a "tolerant society," to convince them that we are not scary? wow. I thought they were tolerant in the first place, as you mentioned, and we wont need to do any reaching out?
Could you no throw the word kafir around like it's an actual insult? On the second point, yes I worded it badly. I meant most people. But some are still closed minded. I don't mean prejudiced types, those types can die in a fire, but people who just fear or are uneasy about what they don't know. The kinds you'd never see traveling to another country even if they had the money. These are the ones who should see what Islam really is. What I like about some Muslim sites that have Sheikhs answering questions about Islam is that they don't intimidate you with "Join us or you will go to Hell" like some Christian sites.
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Pygoscelis
12-09-2010, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I dont think I agree with that .... so we need to "reach out" to the kaafirs, who supposedly make up a "tolerant society," to convince them that we are not scary? wow. I thought they were tolerant in the first place, as you mentioned, and we wont need to do any reaching out?
It would be nice if muslims didn't have to do any reaching out to show that Islam is not hateful and intollerant, wouldn't it? Why isn't this so? Partly because of statements like these by people identifying themselves as muslims.

you are telling me ( i am a Muslim) to make friends with atheists, the very people who reject the God I believe in and live for? what is this? Tomorrow you will tell me to go and make friends with a person who, God forbid, murdered someone very dear to me? And Allah is dearer to me than this person who got murdered!
And no, I'd rather die in depression than go out with an atheist to chill out in the park.
Equating atheism with murder and stating that one would rather die than be around atheists is exactly the kind of attitude that causes the negative stereotype that some of the less hateful muslims here complain about and would like us westerners not to hold.
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GuestFellow
12-09-2010, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
Atheists are the most arrogant bunch of liars I've seen, after the Egyptian Coptic Christians.
:sl:

No need to generalise.

Keep in mind, there are some non-Muslims who have converted to Islam and others who have potential to convert.
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Ramadhan
12-09-2010, 04:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It would be nice if muslims didn't have to do any reaching out to show that Islam is not hateful and intollerant, wouldn't it? Why isn't this so? Partly because of statements like these by people identifying themselves as muslims.
I really doubt that.
I am very certain those who are intolerant and hateful or distrustful of muslims have not actually met in person and known personally a muslim.
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Grace Seeker
12-09-2010, 07:11 PM
Interesting that the same person can say this of another person:
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
wow ... self righteousness.

And then in the very same post say these things of himself:
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I had most philosophical discussions with myself, with other Muslims
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
I'd rather die in depression than go out with an atheist to chill out in the park.

I only hope that he is able to see the irony of those comments when they are juxataposed.

.
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Thucydides1987
12-15-2010, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Keep in mind, there are some non-Muslims who have converted to Islam and others who have potential to convert.

So that's the reason why you feel that they should be treated nicely -- because they may one day convert to Islam? Otherwise, they're not worth more than trash, right?
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Thucydides1987
12-15-2010, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
And no, I'd rather die in depression than go out with an atheist to chill out in the park.

Where's the love, man? Why the hate and insecurity?
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Thucydides1987
12-15-2010, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by mad_scientist
you are telling me ( i am a Muslim) to make friends with atheists, the very people who reject the God I believe in and live for? what is this? Tomorrow you will tell me to go and make friends with a person who, God forbid, murdered someone very dear to me?

What logic in hell are you using in your linking of the rejection of God to the murder of a person?

Also, just because someone doesn't believe in your God, doesn't mean he hates your God, and doesn't mean that he hates you. Your presumption of this hostility is quite elucidating of YOUR OWN irrational hatred and anger toward people who are different than you.
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MartyrX
12-15-2010, 12:48 AM
Not every atheist is arrogant, and self-righteous. I've met quite a few who are, but as I've always said you will always find a bad seed with every group of people. A friendship can be had with people of all beliefs as long as it's kept civil and polite.
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malez
12-15-2010, 09:51 AM
As muslims we need to show non-muslims tolerance and good behevior.
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GuestFellow
12-15-2010, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thucydides1987
So that's the reason why you feel that they should be treated nicely -- because they may one day convert to Islam? Otherwise, they're not worth more than trash, right?
No. People should convert to Islam to please Allah, not me.

End of the day, I don't care whether you or any other non-Muslim converts. I don't want people to convert to please me at all.
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Zafran
12-15-2010, 03:57 PM
Conversion is a personal matter - if you do it for people and society then your falling into hypocricy - the road from there isnt so nice.......
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Perseveranze
12-15-2010, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thucydides1987
So that's the reason why you feel that they should be treated nicely -- because they may one day convert to Islam? Otherwise, they're not worth more than trash, right?
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),

No because the Quran and Sunnah tell us to, I mean being Kind to anyone and everyone is obligatory to every Muslim (No Muslim will turn a hungry man down just because their not Muslims, even at the time of the Prophet(peace be upon him), non-Muslim slaves were treated with greater respect than the non-Muslims treated each others with. Anyone and everyone has potential to revert to Islam, which isn't in our hands but God's (all we can assist in doing is opening their hearts, ie; preaching to them and letting them understand the true Islam). We can never force anyone to revert, we should only try to present Islam the way it's suppose to be presented, not for the non-Muslims but for Allah(swt) (Allah = One True God). Just because were in the presence of a Non-Muslim, do you think we'll suddenly change our attitude and the way we do things? That's a hypocritical thought, since our only witness to the way we act and speak and think is non other than Allah(swt).
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Thucydides1987
12-15-2010, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
No because the Quran and Sunnah tell us to, I mean being Kind to anyone and everyone is obligatory to every Muslim (No Muslim will turn a hungry man down just because their not Muslims, even at the time of the Prophet(pbuh), non-Muslim slaves were treated with respect greater respect than the non-Muslims treated each others with. Anyone and everyone has potential to revert to Islam, which isn't in our hands but God's (all we can assist in doing is opening their hearts, ie; preaching to them and letting them understand the true Islam). We can never force anyone to revert, we should only try to present Islam the way it's suppose to be presented, not for the non-Muslims but for Allah(swt) (Allah = One True God). Just because were in the presence of a Non-Muslim, do you think we'll suddenly change our attitude and the way we do things? That's a hypocritical thought, since our only witness to the way we act and speak and think is non other then Allah(swt).

Well, other than the part about Muhammad's non-Muslim slaves (regardless of the respect they get, they're still slaves), I generally like what you said, it's very humble -- if only I knew more Muslims like you.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2010, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
No because the Quran and Sunnah tell us to,
I choose to believe that you would be kind to non-muslims even if the Quran didn't tell you to.

And hey, check it out, an atheist having faith about something :p
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aadil77
12-16-2010, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I choose to believe that you would be kind to non-muslims even if the Quran didn't tell you to.
theres no reason not to
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siam
12-16-2010, 02:27 AM
What do non-muslims want?----apologies everytime there is a "terrorist" act---supposedly in the name of Islam. But when confronted by terrorist acts that their countries/governments have (and continue) to perpetrate IN THEIR NAME---there are always excuses--and hardly any apologies.

So, non-muslims might say---but hey, what the governments do is not for religion----well---what the suicide terrorists do is not for religion either---they are protesting the brutal western terrorists acts of killing hundreds of innocent civilians and children in their countries.---Read Robert Pape or look up his database at the University of Chicago.

So, there is domestic voilence, capital punishment, lack of freedom---etc and Muslims should apologise for this?----all of this also exists in the West--I don't hear any apologies for this---in fact, the U.S. defends its human rights abuses---(The U.S. is currently under review of its human rights records----Glenn Greenwald also has some interesting stuff to say about U.S. abuse of rights/civil liberties)

So what do we do?---sit around and blame each other?---spend our time apologiszing for every other thing? In my opinion, we need to ask---what can I/we do to help?. We are all brothers and sisters in humanity and if we help each other---we can make this world better. Instead of the cycle of blaming and apologising---we should come up with creative solutions to our World problems---because these problems are all similar all over the world.

.....and maybe we should start by cultivating an attitude of mutual respect......?
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Ramadhan
12-16-2010, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thucydides1987
I generally like what you said, it's very humble -- if only I knew more Muslims like you.

You should move to Indonesia, the largest muslim country, and you will find that that is the general attitude of muslims.
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Grace Seeker
12-16-2010, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by siam
So what do we do?---sit around and blame each other?
Well, we're doing that already. Doesn't seem like it's working very well.

---spend our time apologiszing for every other thing?
I still think that some time spent doing this has merit. But you're absolutely right if you're saying that one can't spend all of one's time doing this. There are more productive things that we can do.


In my opinion, we need to ask---what can I/we do to help?. We are all brothers and sisters in humanity and if we help each other---we can make this world better. Instead of the cycle of blaming and apologising---we should come up with creative solutions to our World problems---because these problems are all similar all over the world.
And I have said this before and been shot down for it on these very forums. I was told that the efforts of one person are meaningless in a global environment. So, I'm glad to hear your reaffirming voice.

One of the things that I think we can do is to hold those who represent us (or claim to) accountable. Citizens should be writing letters to their governments protesting the actions of those governments when they don't behave in appropriate ways and pursue agendas we disagree with. And when given the opportunity we should be voting for other candidates than those who have led to some of the injustices of the past. If there are none, where practical, we should consider running for office ourselves.

With regard to ideologies that spring up on their own, we need to join groups that promote those things that we can support and resist those that don't. Again, we should not be silent, but need to make our voices heard.

To that end I do applaud that the Fiqh Council of North America issued a statement "to reaffirm Islam's absolute condemnation of terrorism and religious extremism" following the attempted bombing of a Christmas tree lighting celebration in Corvallis, OR. CAIR reported it as "A Fatwa Against Terrorism." That's not an apology, because they did nothing wrong. Rather it is to assert what Islam truly stands for in contrast to those who might pervert it.

Sadly, there were those in Corvallis who still decided to resort to terror; this time it was directed at Muslims and a Mosque was firebombed. But I also applaud the non-Muslim community in Corvallis who, on learning of the firebombing, organized a "Not In Our Town" response to that sort of hate with a candlelight vigil in which "more than 300 people stood in a driving rain ... to show support for the Muslim community in the wake of a firebombing that destroyed an office at the Corvallis mosque and shook a city proud of its diversity."

That's just one community. But if that pattern was repeated around the world, it would seem to me to be a model that would truly lead to peace. Not that there wouldn't ever been any incidents, but that they would be come the exception rather than the rule and option of first resort that they seem to be to so many.


.....and maybe we should start by cultivating an attitude of mutual respect......?
No doubt. We could even begin to practice those behaviors on this very forum.

But again, not everyone is going to offer the mutual respect you suggest. So, how should the rest of us respond when we run into statements like: "The day [name omitted] writes anything of tangible substance hell will freeze over and all the devils will be ice skating."? Especially when the person so slandered has not even yet posted in the thread in which s/he has been vilified, and those who made such statements dropped in only to make unkind remarks and they themselves did not contribute anything of substance to the thread?

If we can't practice offering mutual respect on a forum that has as one of its rules "Thou shalt not be rude" and where we are told that "being kind to anyone and everyone is obligatory to every Muslim," how shall we cultivate this mutual respect in the world at large?
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Darth Ultor
12-16-2010, 11:45 PM
Also, I have only experienced this on the internet. But I would appreciate it if Muslims on the Web would quit lumping me with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as if they think I sit on the Knesset just because I'm a Jew. You don't see me bothering Muslims with issues like terrorism, the Taliban, and the Saudi Royals.
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aadil77
12-16-2010, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Boaz
Also, I have only experienced this on the internet. But I would appreciate it if Muslims on the Web would quit lumping me with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as if they think I sit on the Knesset just because I'm a Jew. You don't see me bothering Muslims with issues like terrorism, the Taliban, and the Saudi Royals.
lol I think some members are curious to know your views
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glo
12-23-2010, 07:08 AM
Thank you for this thread, Grace Seeker.
It has gone on for so long and I haven' read all of it.

I think what I desire most from my Muslim friends here in LI, is to be accepted as I am - despite our differences.

What I would like most (and I don't actually think it is possible, due to the strict Islamic nature of this forum) is to be able to stand up and say 'I believe X and Y' without being attacked or ridiculed for it (I am not talking about meaningful discussion or peaceful debates and exchanges of views here).
Equally I would love the forum rules to enable me to express who I am and being myself.
(Again - as mods have explained to me over time - this is probably not very realistic due to the fact that this is not a multi-faith forum, but an Islamic forum with a strong intention to bring people to Islam)

I guess my own life circumstances have grown in me a desire to love and accept people, whoever they are, and to try my very hardest to understand what they believe and why. If you get to know people (even those you feel you have little in common with) and hear their stories and understand their journeys, it becomes quite easy to love and understand them.
That pretty much sums up my greatest desire in life - to see people live together in peace and harmony.

As I try so hard to be accepting and tolerant of other people I find it hard when others don't extend that same sentiment to me. If I try to accept others as they are, why can't they accept me?

That's my personal struggle at the moment - not just here, but in my real world too.

What I would love to hear from Muslims here is "I don't agree with everything you say, think or believe, but you are welcome and accepted here anyway."
Insha'allah
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siam
12-23-2010, 02:33 PM
@ GS and Glo

This is the answer from the Quran......

Surah 41 verse 34-36
34. Nor can Goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better: then between whom was hatred, become as it were, friends and intimates.
35. And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self restraint--none but persons of the greatest good fortune.
36. And if (at any time) an incitement to discord is made to you by satan, seek refuge in God. He is the one who hears and knows

We cannot control someone else---we can only control ourselves. However, our interactions with others can serve as examples. For human beings, patience and self-restraint are very difficult struggles that need practice......

but why make the effort?----because impatience and excessive passion feed the ego which leads to pride and arrogance and this removes us from the path that leads to nearness to God.....and I speak from experience as impatience is a personal flaw of mine.....
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aadil77
12-23-2010, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo

What I would love to hear from Muslims here is "I don't agree with everything you say, think or believe, but you are welcome and accepted here anyway."
Insha'allah
You can hear that from me Glo

What you've probably noticed is that on any kind of forum people love to strike up a debate, its what makes forums interesting.

Obviously in real life face to face interaction, people will accept each other with no questions asked or statements made, in order not to offend each other. But forums give us a means to discuss things we would not do in normal circumstances with people we don't know. So when you bring up your beliefs on a religious forum - we may not agree with them, we'll respect them but we may take the opportunity to discuss your beliefs further, because obviously this is the right place to do so, its something you can expect here.
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glo
12-23-2010, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
You can hear that from me Glo
Thank you, aadil. :)
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sister herb
12-23-2010, 09:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
What I would love to hear from Muslims here is "I don't agree with everything you say, think or believe, but you are welcome and accepted here anyway."
Insha'allah
I try to send this message to everyone, not only in this forum but in everyday life.

Kind of way to think make this life much easy to live - to everyone.

Thanks glo about your wise words.

p.s. and don´t forget I told you about cookies...
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glo
12-23-2010, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb
I try to send this message to everyone, not only in this forum but in everyday life.
No doubt about it, sister harb. That's very obvious to me, and no doubt to others too. :)

Kind of way to think make this life much easy to live - to everyone.

Thanks glo about your wise words.
No, thank you!

p.s. and don´t forget I told you about cookies...
Haha! I promise I'll be good!

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sister herb
12-23-2010, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Haha! I promise I'll be good!

Sure. We just want you back after your holiday dinner(s).



Forgive that I am teasing her.
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Grace Seeker
12-23-2010, 10:05 PM
And I beg patience of my Muslim friends at this time of year. I'm not much involved in the more weighty threads as I've many things on my plate right now. So, not ignoring them, but waiting till I'm able to give them the attention they deserve. In the meantime, glad for the occassion break that some of the lighter threads (like "Snow") have given me.
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glo
12-23-2010, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb



Forgive that I am teasing her.
Who told you that that's how I was planning to spend the holidays??! :D

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And I beg patience of my Muslim friends at this time of year. I'm not much involved in the more weighty threads as I've many things on my plate right now. So, not ignoring them, but waiting till I'm able to give them the attention they deserve. In the meantime, glad for the occassion break that some of the lighter threads (like "Snow") have given me.
Sometimes it's just good to chill and enjoy the company.
Why not join me and sister harb for coffee and cookies?



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sister herb
12-23-2010, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And I beg patience of my Muslim friends at this time of year. I'm not much involved in the more weighty threads as I've many things on my plate right now. So, not ignoring them, but waiting till I'm able to give them the attention they deserve. In the meantime, glad for the occassion break that some of the lighter threads (like "Snow") have given me.
We are here to wait your posts and opinions.



With our arguments.
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Grace Seeker
12-24-2010, 12:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister harb



With our arguments.
LOL!! Touché!!

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IAmZamzam
12-24-2010, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
And I beg patience of my Muslim friends at this time of year. I'm not much involved in the more weighty threads as I've many things on my plate right now. So, not ignoring them, but waiting till I'm able to give them the attention they deserve.
Has anyone complained?
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Grace Seeker
12-24-2010, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Has anyone complained?
No. And I didn't mean to imply that anyone would. But you might send me a PM in about a week to remind me to return to the Trinity thread. Knowing how involved that discussion has gotten on past threads, I've not even read that one recently let alone posted on it.
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IAmZamzam
12-24-2010, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You might send me a PM in about a week to remind me to return to the Trinity thread.
No, I won't.
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