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Tyrion
12-10-2010, 10:40 AM
:sl:

I'll start off by saying that I personally don't believe music/musical instruments or drawing things (living or non-living) to be haram. I understand that with music especially, this is considered to be a minority view (especially here on IB), but I've found the arguments to be far more convincing on the "not haram" side. :p (Obviously I'm just speaking for myself here though)

But yeah, I've noticed that the majority of Muslim members on this forum are of the opinion that both the drawing living things and listening to music is totally haram... So I have a few questions to ask you. (Just out of curiosity) First off, what do you do when it comes to movies? Pretty much all of them contain music, so do you just avoid them all? Is it the same with tv and most internet videos? Or are there exceptions made? Also, when it comes to pictures... If you get really technical, cartoons would count as pictures I suppose... So do you guys avoid those as well? How about books with images? Or even web pages that use drawings? And if you want to get really really really technical, all video is just a stream of images with some audio... Is there anyone that's totally against videos on the basis that they're haram? Or is that going too far?

Also, is there anyone else on the board who also has the view that these two things aren't haram? It definitely seems like the vast majority of members here think they are, but perhaps the ones that don't just aren't vocal... The reason I ask this is because in my community/family, very few people hold the opinion of these things being haram... I myself didn't even know the different opinions existed until a year or so ago, and that was only thanks to the internet. Arguments over this stuff seem to exist more on the internet than they do in the communities I've seen, so I was also curious about why that is,and about the actual number of people who hold certain views vs. those you hear talking about them.

I really am curious about all this, so I'd appreciate some replies. Also, can we please try to refrain from getting into an argument about whether or not I'm wrong? I don't want to get into a halal/haram debate, as it's been done numerous times in other threads... I posted this in the general section in hopes of avoiding a debate on rulings. :p
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nature
12-10-2010, 11:14 AM
:wa:
Originally Posted by Tyrion
I'll start off by saying that I personally don't believe music/musical instruments or drawing things (living or non-living) to be haram. I understand that with music especially, this is considered to be a minority view (especially here on IB), but I've found the arguments to be far more convincing on the "not haram" side. (Obviously I'm just speaking for myself here though)
ahem, good luck with this, one. :D Im glad you asked this. Im kinda with you on some of these things. I too only knew about music being haram a few months ago. Some people are of the view that going to the cinema is haram even ? Ive been bought up knwing no different, so music/movies is the norm for me. but like you im really interested in this stuff. I understand certain types of music is very inappropriate, but its part of the world, so how can you avoid it ? esp for young people, that go to a state school ? some schools have dance as part of the core subjects. How far does it go ? What about dolls ? Ive been told this is haram, but wen i looked into it, its ok if its for a child to play with ? but yet theres question as to if its really ok, as they have faces ? What about eating things that represent living things ? like shaped biscuits in the forms of people ? sorry if this sounds stupid..but i would be interested to know.


Originally Posted by Tyrion
Also, is there anyone else on the board who also has the view that these two things aren't haram? It definitely seems like the vast majority of members here think they are, but perhaps the ones that don't just aren't vocal...
I dont know yet, to me its normal, but if its haram it is, im just trying to find out the answers too.
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أبو سليمان عمر
12-10-2010, 11:50 AM
I'll start off by saying that I personally don't believe music/musical instruments or drawing things (living or non-living) to be haram. I understand that with music especially, this is considered to be a minority view (especially here on IB), but I've found the arguments to be far more convincing on the "not haram" side. :p (Obviously I'm just speaking for myself here though)
akhi it doesnt matter what people say on LB or what you think haqq is haqq we are laypeople and it is majority say it is haram and even if not it is the correct opinion i will explain below
But yeah, I've noticed that the majority of Muslim members on this forum are of the opinion that both the drawing living things and listening to music is totally haram... So I have a few questions to ask you. (Just out of curiosity) First off, what do you do when it comes to movies? Pretty much all of them contain music, so do you just avoid them all? Is it the same with tv and most internet videos? Or are there exceptions made? Also, when it comes to pictures... If you get really technical, cartoons would count as pictures I suppose... So do you guys avoid those as well? How about books with images? Or even web pages that use drawings? And if you want to get really really really technical, all video is just a stream of images with some audio... Is there anyone that's totally against videos on the basis that they're haram? Or is that going too far?
again it doesnt matter what the majority on this fourm says i doubt any of us are scholars here as for moives and videos i believe to be haram for it is a motion picture and the prophet said All picture makers are in the fire if you say well what about if i just watch them and not make them will akhi i will say you are rathi (accpet would be the closet worst i can get) that this haram thing to be made and Allah said to help one another in good and to accpet somthing that isnt is not right the prophet said if one of you sees a munkar change it with you hand if you cant then with your tounge and if you cant then hate it in your heart and this is the least of iman and hating it doesnt mean accpting it read bleow i will further explain
Also, is there anyone else on the board who also has the view that these two things aren't haram? It definitely seems like the vast majority of members here think they are, but perhaps the ones that don't just aren't vocal... The reason I ask this is because in my community/family, very few people hold the opinion of these things being haram... I myself didn't even know the different opinions existed until a year or so ago, and that was only thanks to the internet. Arguments over this stuff seem to exist more on the internet than they do in the communities I've seen, so I was also curious about why that is,and about the actual number of people who hold certain views vs. those you hear talking about them.
Allah says if we differ in a matter take it back to Allah and his messneger

I really am curious about all this, so I'd appreciate some replies. Also, can we please try to refrain from getting into an argument about whether or not I'm wrong? I don't want to get into a halal/haram debate, as it's been done numerous times in other threads... I posted this in the general section in hopes of avoiding a debate on rulings. :p
[/QUOTE]
i will not debate anyone in this matter i will post my daleel and those who look for haqq can see it insha Allah those who want to debate im tired of it anyhow

Evidence that Music and Singing are Haram

Ma’aazif is the plural of mi’zafah, and refers to musical instruments (Fath al-Baari, 10/55), instruments which are played (al-Majmoo’, 11/577). Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated from al-Jawhari (may Allaah have mercy on him) that ma’aazif means singing. In his Sihaah it says that it means musical instruments. It was also said that it refers to the sound of the instruments. In al-Hawaashi by al-Dimyaati (may Allaah have mercy on him) it says: ma’aazif means drums (dufoof, sing. daff) and other instruments which are struck or beaten (Fath al-Baari, 10/55).

Evidence of prohibition in the Qur’aan and Sunnah:

Allaah says in Soorat Luqmaan (interpretation of the meaning):

“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…” [Luqmaan 31:6]

The scholar of the ummah, Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: this means singing. Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this means playing the drum (tabl). (Tafseer al-Tabari, 21/40).

Al-Hasan al-Basri (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this aayah was revealed concerning singing and musical instruments (lit. woodwind instruments). (Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/451).

Al-Sa’di (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: this includes all manner of haraam speech, all idle talk and falsehood, and all nonsense that encourages kufr and disobedience; the words of those who say things to refute the truth and argue in support of falsehood to defeat the truth; and backbiting, slander, lies, insults and curses; the singing and musical instruments of the Shaytaan; and musical instruments which are of no spiritual or worldly benefit. (Tafseer al-Sa’di, 6/150)

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The interpretation of the Sahaabah and Taabi’in, that ‘idle talk’ refers to singing, is sufficient. This was reported with saheeh isnaads from Ibn ‘Abbaas and Ibn Mas’ood. Abu’l-Sahbaa’ said: I asked Ibn Mas’ood about the aayah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘“And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks’ [Luqmaan 31:6]. He said: By Allaah, besides Whom there is no other god, this means singing – and he repeated it three times. It was also reported with a saheeh isnaad from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) that this means singing. There is no contradiction between the interpretation of “idle talk” as meaning singing and the interpretation of it as meaning stories of the Persians and their kings, and the kings of the Romans, and so on, such as al-Nadr ibn al-Haarith used to tell to the people of Makkah to distract them from the Qur’aan. Both of them are idle talk. Hence Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Idle talk” is falsehood and singing. Some of the Sahaabah said one and some said the other, and some said both. Singing is worse and more harmful than stories of kings, because it leads to zinaa and makes hypocrisy grow (in the heart); it is the trap of the Shaytaan, and it clouds the mind. The way in which it blocks people from the Qur’aan is worse than the way in which other kinds of false talk block them, because people are naturally inclined towards it and tend to want to listen to it. The aayaat condemn replacing the Qur’aan with idle talk in order to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah without knowledge and taking it as a joke, because when an aayah of the Qur’aan is recited to such a person, he turns his back as if he heard them not, as if there were deafness in his ear. If he hears anything of it, he makes fun of it. All of this happens only in the case of the people who are most stubbornly kaafirs and if some of it happens to singers and those who listen to them, they both have a share of this blame. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, 1/258-259).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“[Allaah said to Iblees:] And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice (i.e. songs, music, and any other call for Allaah’s disobedience)…” [al-Israa’ 17:64]

It was narrated that Mujaahid (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “And befool them gradually those whom you can among them with your voice” – his voice [the voice of Iblees/Shaytaan] is singing and falsehood. Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This idaafah [possessive or genitive construction, i.e., your voice] serves to make the meaning specific, as with the phrases [translated as] “your cavalry” and “your infantry” [later in the same aayah]. Everyone who speaks in any way that is not obedient to Allaah, everyone who blows into a flute or other woodwind instrument, or who plays any haraam kind of drum, this is the voice of the Shaytaan. Everyone who walks to commit some act of disobedience towards Allaah is part of his [the Shaytaan’s] infantry, and anyone who rides to commit sin is part of his cavalry. This is the view of the Salaf, as Ibn ‘Abi Haatim narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas: his infantry is everyone who walks to disobey Allaah. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan).

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do you then wonder at this recitation (the Qur’aan)?

And you laugh at it and weep not,

Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”

[al-Najm 53:59-61]

‘Ikrimah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: it was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that al-sumood [verbal noun from saamidoon, translated here as “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)”] means “singing”, in the dialect of Himyar; it might be said “Ismidi lanaa” [‘sing for us’ – from the same root as saamidoon/sumood] meaning “ghaniy” [sing]. And he said (may Allaah have mercy on him): When they [the kuffaar] heard the Qur’aan, they would sing, then this aayah was revealed.

Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning) “Wasting your (precious) lifetime in pastime and amusements (singing)” – Sufyaan al-Thawri said, narrating from his father from Ibn ‘Abbaas: (this means) singing. This is Yemeni (dialect): ismad lana means ghan lana [sing to us]. This was also the view of ‘Ikrimah. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer).

It was reported from Abu Umaamah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not sell singing slave women, do not buy them and do not teach them. There is nothing good in this trade, and their price is haraam. Concerning such things as this the aayah was revealed (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e. music, singing) to mislead (men) from the path of Allaah…’ [Luqmaan 31:6].” (Hasan hadeeth)

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This is a saheeh hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh, where he quoted it as evidence and stated that it is mu’allaq and majzoom. He said: Chapter on what was narrated concerning those who permit alcohol and call it by another name.

This hadeeth indicates in two ways that musical instruments and enjoyment of listening to music are haraam. The first is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “[they] permit” which clearly indicates that the things mentioned, including musical instruments, are haraam according to sharee’ah, but those people will permit them. The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)

Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth indicates that ma’aazif are haraam, and ma’aazif means musical instruments according to the scholars of (Arabic) language. This word includes all such instruments. (al-Majmoo’, 11/535).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: And concerning the same topic similar comments were narrated from Sahl ibn Sa’d al-Saa’idi, ‘Imraan ibn Husayn, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr, ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbaas, Abu Hurayrah, Abu Umaamah al-Baahili, ‘Aa’ishah Umm al-Mu’mineen, ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Anas ibn Maalik, ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Saabit and al-Ghaazi ibn Rabee’ah. Then he mentioned it in Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, and it indicates that they (musical instruments) are haraam.

It was narrated that Naafi’ (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Ibn ‘Umar heard a woodwind instrument, and he put his fingers in his ears and kept away from that path. He said to me, O Naafi’, can you hear anything? I said, No. So he took his fingers away from his ears and said: I was with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he heard something like this, and he did the same thing. (Saheeh Abi Dawood). Some insignificant person said that this hadeeth does not prove that musical instruments are haraam, because if that were so, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would have instructed Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both) to put his fingers in his ears as well, and Ibn ‘Umar would have instructed Naafi’ to do likewise! The response to this is: He was not listening to it, but he could hear it. There is a difference between listening and hearing. Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Concerning (music) which a person does not intend to listen to, there is no prohibition or blame, according to scholarly consensus. Hence blame or praise is connected to listening, not to hearing. The one who listens to the Qur’aan will be rewarded for it, whereas the one who hears it without intending or wanting to will not be rewarded for that, because actions are judged by intentions. The same applies to musical instruments which are forbidden: if a person hears them without intending to, that does not matter. (al-Majmoo’, 10/78).

Ibn Qudaamah al-Maqdisi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: the listener is the one who intends to hear, which was not the case with Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with them both); what happened in his case was hearing. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) needed to know when the sound stopped because he had moved away from that path and blocked his ears. So he did not want to go back to that path or unblock his ears until the noise had stopped, so when he allowed Ibn ‘Umar to continue hearing it, this was because of necessity. (al-Mughni, 10/173)

(Even though the hearing referred to in the comments of the two imaams is makrooh, it was permitted because of necessity, as we will see below in the comments of Imaam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him). And Allaah knows best).

The views of the scholars (imaams) of Islam

Al-Qaasim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Singing is part of falsehood. Al-Hasan (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: if there is music involved in a dinner invitation (waleemah), do not accept the invitation (al-Jaami by al-Qayrawaani, p. 262-263).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The view of the four Imaams is that all kinds of musical instruments are haraam. It was reported in Saheeh al-Bukhaari and elsewhere that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that there would be among his ummah those who would allow zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments, and he said that they would be transformed into monkeys and pigs… None of the followers of the imaams mentioned any dispute concerning the matter of music. (al-Majmoo’, 11/576).

Al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The four madhhabs are agreed that all musical instruments are haraam. (al-Saheehah, 1/145).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The madhhab of Abu Haneefah is the strictest in this regard, and his comments are among the harshest. His companions clearly stated that it is haraam to listen to all musical instruments such as the flute and the drum, even tapping a stick. They stated that it is a sin which implies that a person is a faasiq (rebellious evil doer) whose testimony should be rejected. They went further than that and said that listening to music is fisq (rebellion, evildoing) and enjoying it is kufr (disbelief). This is their words. They narrated in support of that a hadeeth which could not be attributed to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They said: he should try not to hear it if he passes by it or it is in his vicinity. Abu Yoosuf said, concerning a house from which could be heard the sound of musical instruments: Go in without their permission, because forbidding evil actions is obligatory, and if it were not allowed to enter without permission, people could not have fulfilled the obligatory duty (of enjoining what is good and forbidding what is evil). (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, 1/425).

Imaam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about playing the drum or flute, if a person happens to hear the sound and enjoy it whilst he is walking or sitting. He said: He should get up if he finds that he enjoys it, unless he is sitting down for a need or is unable to get up. If he is on the road, he should either go back or move on. (al-Jaami’ by al-Qayrawaani, 262). He (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The only people who do things like that, in our view, are faasiqs.” (Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 14/55).

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Among the types of earnings which are haraam by scholarly consensus are ribaa, the fee of a prostitute, anything forbidden, bribes, payment for wailing over the dead and singing, payments to fortune-tellers and those who claim to know the unseen and astrologers, payments for playing flutes, and all kinds of gambling. (al-Kaafi).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, explaining the view of Imaam al-Shaafa'i: His companions who know his madhhab (point of view) stated that it is haraam and denounced those who said that he permitted it. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan, 1/425).

The author of Kifaayat al-Akhbaar, who was one of the Shaafa’is, counted musical instruments such as flutes and others, as being munkar (evil), and the one who is present (where they are being played) should denounce them. (He cannot be excused by the fact that there are bad scholars, because they are corrupting the sharee’ah, or evil faqeers – meaning the Sufis, because they call themselves fuqaraa’ or faqeers – because they are ignorant and follow anyone who makes noise; they are not guided by the light of knowledge; rather they are blown about by every wind. (Kifaayat al-Akhbaar, 2/128).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: With regard to the view of Imaam Ahmad, his son ‘Abd-Allaah said: I asked my father about singing. He said: Singing makes hypocrisy grow in the heart; I do not like it. Then he mentioned the words of Maalik: the evildoers (faasiqs) among us do that. (Ighaathat al-Lahfaan).

Ibn Qudaamah, the researcher of the Hanbali madhhab – (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Musical instruments are of three types which are haraam. These are the strings and all kinds of flute, and the lute, drum and rabaab (stringed instrument) and so on. Whoever persists in listening to them, his testimony should be rejected. (al-Mughni, 10/173). And he said (may Allaah have mercy on him); If a person is invited to a gathering in which there is something objectionable, such as wine and musical instruments, and he is able to denounce it, then he should attend and speak out against it, because then he will be combining two obligatory duties. If he is not able to do that, then he should not attend. (al-Kaafi, 3/118)

Al-Tabari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The scholars of all regions are agreed that singing is makrooh and should be prevented. Although Ibraaheem ibn Sa’d and ‘Ubayd-Allaah al-‘Anbari differed from the majority, (it should be noted that) the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Adhere to the majority.” And whoever dies differing from the majority, dies as a jaahili. (Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 14/56). In earlier generations, the word “makrooh” was used to mean haraam, then it took on the meaning of “disliked”. But this is to be understood as meaning that it is forbidden, because he [al-Tabari] said “it should be prevented”, and nothing is to be prevented except that which is haraam; and because in the two hadeeths quoted, music is denounced in the strongest terms. Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) is the one who narrated this report, then he said: Abu’l-Faraj and al-Qaffaal among our companions said: the testimony of the singer and the dancer is not to be accepted. I say: if it is proven that this matter is not permissible, then accepting payment for it is not permissible either.

Shaykh al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: What Ibraaheem ibn Sa’d and ‘Ubayd-Allaah al-‘Anbari said about singing is not like the kind of singing that is known nowadays, for they would never have allowed this kind of singing which is the utmost in immorality and obscenity. (al-I’laam)

Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: It is not permissible to make musical instruments. (al-Majmoo’, 22/140). And he said: According to the majority of fuqahaa’, it is permissible to destroy musical instruments, such as the tanboor [a stringed instrument similar to a mandolin]. This is the view of Maalik and is the more famous of the two views narrated from Ahmad. (al-Majmoo’, 28/113). And he said: …Ibn al-Mundhir mentioned that the scholars were agreed that it is not permissible to pay people to sing and wail… the consensus of all the scholars whose views we have learned about is that wailing and singing are not allowed. Al-Shu’bi, al-Nakha’i and Maalik regarded that as makrooh [i.e., haraam]. Abu Thawr, al-Nu’maan – Abu Haneefah (may Allaah have mercy on him) – and Ya’qoob and Muhammad, two of the students of Abu Haneefah said: it is not permissible to pay anything for singing and wailing. This is our view. And he said: musical instruments are the wine of the soul, and what it does to the soul is worse than what intoxicating drinks do. (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 10/417).

Ibn Abi Shaybah (may Allaah have mercy on him) reported that a man broke a mandolin belonging to another man, and the latter took his case to Shurayh. But Shurayh did not award him any compensation – i.e., he did not make the first man pay the cost of the mandolin, because it was haraam and had no value. (al-Musannaf, 5/395).

Al-Baghawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) stated in a fatwa that it is haraam to sell all kinds of musical instruments such as mandolins, flutes, etc. Then he said: If the images are erased and the musical instruments are altered, then it is permissible to sell their parts, whether they are silver, iron, wood or whatever. (Sharh al-Sunnah, 8/28)

An appropriate exception

The exception to the above is the daff – without any rings (i.e., a hand-drum which looks like a tambourine, but without any rattles) – when used by women on Eids and at weddings. This is indicated by saheeh reports. Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: But the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) made allowances for certain types of musical instruments at weddings and the like, and he made allowances for women to play the daff at weddings and on other joyful occasions. But the men at his time did not play the daff or clap with their hands. It was narrated in al-Saheeh that he said: “Clapping is for women and tasbeeh (saying Subhaan Allaah) is for men.” And he cursed women who imitate men and men who imitate women. Because singing and playing the daff are things that women do, the Salaf used to call any man who did that a mukhannath (effeminate man), and they used to call male singers effeminate – and how many of them there are nowadays! It is well known that the Salaf said this.

In a similar vein is the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), when her father (may Allaah be pleased with him) entered upon her at the time of Eid, and there were two young girls with her who were singing the verses that the Ansaar had said on the day of Bu’aath – and any sensible person will know what people say about war. Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Musical instruments of the Shaytaan in the house of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)!” The Messenger of Allaah had turned away from them and was facing the wall – hence some scholars said that Abu Bakr (may Allaah be pleased with him) would not tell anybody off in front of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), but he thought that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was not paying attention to what was happening. And Allaah knows best. He (the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)) said: “Leave them alone, O Abu Bakr, for every nation has its Eid, and this is our Eid, the people of Islam.” This hadeeth shows that it was not the habit of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions to gather to listen to singing, hence Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq called it “the musical instruments of the Shaytaan”. And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) approved of this appellation and did not deny it when he said, “Leave them alone, for every nation has its Eid and this is our Eid.” This indicates that the reason why this was permitted was because it was the time of Eid, and the prohibition remained in effect at times other than Eid, apart from the exceptions made for weddings in other ahaadeeth. Shaykh al-Albaani explained this in his valuable book Tahreem Aalaat al-Tarab (the Prohibition of Musical Instruments). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) approved of young girls singing at Eid, as stated in the hadeeth: “So that the mushrikeen will know that in our religion there is room for relaxation.” There is no indication in the hadeeth about the two young girls that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was listening to them. The commands and prohibitions have to do with listening, not merely hearing, just as in the case of seeing, the rules have to do with intentionally looking and not what happens by accident. So it is clear that this is for women only. Imaam Abu ‘Ubayd (may Allaah have mercy on him) defined the daff as “that which is played by women.” (Ghareeb al-Hadeeth, 3/64).
An inappropriate exception

Some of them make an exception for drums at times of war, and consequentially some modern scholars have said that military music is allowed. But there is no basis for this at all, for a number of reasons, the first of which is that this is making an exception with no clear evidence, apart from mere opinion and thinking that it is good, and this is wrong. The second reason is that what the Muslims should do at times of war is to turn their hearts towards their Lord. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“They ask you (O Muhammad) about the spoils of war. Say: ‘The spoils are for Allaah and the Messenger.’ So fear Allaah and adjust all matters of difference among you…” [al-Anfaal 8:1]. But using music is the opposite of this idea of taqwa and it would distract them from remembering their Lord. Thirdly, using music is one of the customs of the kuffaar, and it is not permitted to imitate them, especially with regard to something that Allaah has forbidden to us in general, such as music. (al-Saheehah, 1/145)

“No people go astray after having been guided except they developed arguments amongst themselves.” (Saheeh)

Some of them used the hadeeth about the Abyssinians playing in the mosque of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as evidence that singing is allowed! Al-Bukhaari included this hadeeth in his Saheeh under the heading Baab al-Hiraab wa’l-Daraq Yawm al-‘Eid (Chapter on Spears and Shields on the Day of Eid). Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This indicates that it is permissible to play with weapons and the like in the mosque, and he applied that to other activities connected with jihaad. (Sharh Muslim). But as al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: whoever speaks about something which is not his profession will come up with weird ideas such as these.

Some of them use as evidence the hadeeth about the singing of the two young girls, which we have discussed above, but we will quote what Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said, because it is valuable:

I am amazed that you quote as evidence for allowing listening to sophisticated songs the report which we mentioned about how two young girls who were below the age of puberty sang to a young woman on the day of Eid some verses of Arab poetry about bravery in war and other noble characteristics. How can you compare this to that? What is strange is that this hadeeth is one of the strongest proofs against them. The greatest speaker of the truth [Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq] called them musical instruments of the Shaytaan, and the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) approved of that appellation, but he made an exception in the case of these two young girls who had not yet reached the age of responsibility and the words of whose songs could not corrupt anyone who listened to them. Can this be used as evidence to allow what you do and what you know of listening (to music) which includes (bad) things which are not hidden?! Subhaan Allaah! How people can be led astray! (Madaarij al-Saalikeen, 1/493).

Ibn al-Jawzi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was young at that time; nothing was transmitted from her after she reached the age of puberty except condemnation of singing. Her brother’s son, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad, condemned singing and said that it was not allowed to listen to it, and he took his knowledge from her. (Talbees Iblees, 229). Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: A group of the Sufis used this hadeeth – the hadeeth about the two young girls – as evidence that singing is allowed and it is allowed to listen to it, whether it is accompanied by instruments or not. This view is sufficiently refuted by the clear statement of ‘Aa’ishah in the following hadeeth, where she says, “They were not singers.” She made it clear that they were not singers as such, although this may be understood from the wording of the report. So we should limit it to what was narrated in the text as regards the occasion and the manner, so as to reduce the risk of going against the principle, i.e., the hadeeth. And Allaah knows best. (Fath al-Baari, 2/442-443).

Some people even have the nerve to suggest that the Sahaabah and Taabi’een listened to singing, and that they saw nothing wrong with it!

Al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: We demand them to show us saheeh isnaads going back to these Sahaabah and Taabi’een, proving what they attribute to them. Then he said: Imaam Muslim mentioned in his introduction to his Saheeh that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Mubaarak said: The isnaad is part of religion. Were it not for the isnaad, whoever wanted to could say whatever he wanted to.

Some of them said that the ahaadeeth which forbid music are full of faults. No hadeeth was free of being criticized by some of the scholars. Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The ahaadeeth which were narrated concerning music being haraam are not full of faults as has been claimed. Some of them are in Saheeh al-Bukhaari which is the soundest of books after the Book of Allaah, and some of them are hasan and some are da’eef. But because they are so many, with different isnaads, they constitute definitive proof that singing and musical instruments are haraam.

All the imaams agreed on the soundness of the ahaadeeth which forbid singing and musical instruments, apart from Abu Haamid al-Ghazzaali, but al-Ghazzaali did not have knowledge of hadeeth; and Ibn Hazam, but al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) explained where Ibn Hazam went wrong, and Ibn Hazam himself said that if any of (these ahaadeeth) were saheeh, he would follow that. But now they have proof that these reports are saheeh because there are so many books by the scholars which state that these ahaadeeth are saheeh, but they turn their backs on that. They are far more extreme than Ibn Hazam and they are nothing like him, for they are not qualified and cannot be referred to.

Some of them said that the scholars forbade singing because it is mentioned alongside gatherings in which alcohol is drunk and where people stay up late at night for evil purposes.

Al-Shawkaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The response to this is that mentioning these things in conjunction does not only mean that what is haraam is what is joined together in this manner. Otherwise this would mean that zinaa, as mentioned in the ahaadeeth, is not haraam unless it is accompanied by alcohol and the use of musical instruments. By the same token, an aayah such as the following (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, he used not to believe in Allaah, the Most Great,

And urged not on the feeding of Al‑Miskeen (the poor).”

[al-Haaqqah 69:33-34]

would imply that it is not haraam to disbelieve in Allaah unless that is accompanied by not encouraging the feeding of the poor. If it is said that the prohibition of such things one at a time is proven from other reports, the response to that is that the prohibition of musical instruments is also known from other evidence, as mentioned above. (Nayl al-Awtaar, 8/107).

Some of them said that “idle talk” does not refer to singing; the refutation of that has been mentioned above. Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This – the view that it means singing – is the best that has been said concerning this aayah, and Ibn Mas’ood swore three times by Allaah besides Whom there is no other god, that it does refer to singing. Then he mentioned other imaams who said the same thing. Then he mentioned other views concerning the matter. Then he said: The first view is the best of all that has been said on this matter, because of the marfoo’ hadeeth, and because of the view of the Sahaabah and the Taabi’een. (Tafseer al-Qurtubi).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him), after quoting this Tafseer, said: Al-Haakim Abu ‘Abd-Allaah said in the Tafseer of Kitaab al-Mustadrak: Let the one who is seeking this knowledge know that the Tafseer of a Sahaabi who witnessed the revelation is a hadeeth with isnaad according to the two Shaykhs (al-Bukhaari and Muslim). Elsewhere in his book, he said: In our view this hadeeth has the same strength as a marfoo’ report. Although their tafseer is still subject to further examination, it is still more readily acceptable than the tafseer of those who came after them, because they are the most knowledgeable among this ummah of what Allaah meant in his Book. It was revealed among them and they were the first people to be addressed by it. They heard the tafseer from the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in word and in deed. And they were Arabs who understood the true meanings of (Arabic) words, so Muslims should avoid resorting to any other interpretation as much as possible.

Some of them said that singing is a form of worship if the intention is for it to help one to obey Allaah!

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: How strange! What type of faith, light, insight, guidance and knowledge can be gained from listening to tuneful verses and music in which most of what is said is haraam and deserves the wrath and punishment of Allaah and His Messenger? … How can anyone who has the least amount of insight and faith in his heart draw near to Allaah and increase his faith by enjoying something which is hated by Him, and He detests the one who says it and the one who accepts it? (Madaarij al-Saalikeen, 1/485)

Shaykh al-Islam said, discussing the state of the person who has gotten used to listening to singing: Hence you find that those who have gotten used to it and for whom it is like food and drink will never have the desire to listen to the Qur’aan or feel joy when they hear it, and they never find in listening to its verses the same feeling that they find when listening to poetry. Indeed, if they hear the Qur’aan, they hear it with an inattentive heart and talk whilst it is being recited, but if they hear whistling and clapping of hands, they lower their voices and keep still, and pay attention. (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 11/557 ff)

Some say that music and musical instruments have the effect of softening people’s hearts and creating gentle feelings. This is not true, because it provokes physical desires and whims. If it really did what they say, it would have softened the hearts of the musicians and made their attitude and behaviour better, but most of them, as we know, are astray and behave badly.

Conclusion

Perhaps – for fair-minded and objective readers – this summary will make it clear that the view that music is permissible has no firm basis. There are no two views on this matter. So we must advise in the best manner, and then take it step by step and denounce music, if we are able to do so. We should not be deceived by the fame of a man in our own times in which the people who are truly committed to Islam have become strangers. The one who says that singing and musical instruments are permitted is simply supporting the whims of people nowadays, as if the masses were issuing fatwas and he is simply signing them! If a matter arises, they will look at the views of fuqahaa’ on this matter, then they will take the easiest view, as they claim. Then they will look for evidence, or just specious arguments which are worth no more than a lump of dead meat. How often have these people approved things in the name of sharee’ah which in fact have nothing to do with Islam!

Strive to learn your Islam from the Book of your Lord and the Sunnah of your Prophet. Do not say, So-and-so said, for you cannot learn the truth only from men. Learn the truth and then measure people against it. This should be enough for the one who controls his whims and submits himself to his Lord. May what we have written above heal the hearts of the believers and dispel the whispers in the hearts of those who are stricken with insinuating whispers. May it expose everyone who is deviating from the path of Revelation and taking the easiest options, thinking that he has come up with something which none of the earlier generations ever achieved, and speaking about Allaah without knowledge. They sought to avoid fisq (evildoing) and ended up committing bid’ah – may Allaah not bless them in it. It would have been better for them to follow the path of the believers.

And Allaah knows best. May Allaah bless and grant peace to His Messenger who made clear the path of the believers, and to his companions and those who follow them in truth until the Day of Judgement.

Summary of a paper entitled al-Darb bi’l-Nawa li man abaaha al-Ma’aazif li’l-Hawa by Shaykh Sa’d al-Deen ibn Muhammad al-Kibbi.

For more information, please see:

Al-I’laam bi Naqd Kitaab al-Halaal wa’l-Haraam, by Shaykh al-‘Allaamah Saalih ibn Fawzaan al-Fawzaan

Al-Samaa’ by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn al-Qayyim

Tahreem Aalaat al-Tarab, by Shaykh Muhammad Naasir al-Deen al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him)

pictures

'Abdullaah ibn Mas'ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Those who will be most severely punished by Allaah on the Day of Resurrection will be the image-makers." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see al-Fath, 10/382).

Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Allaah, may He be exalted, says: 'Who does more wrong than the one who tries to create something like My creation? Let him create a grain of wheat or a kernel of corn.'" (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see Fath al-Baari, 10/385).

'Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: "Shall I not send you on the same mission as the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent me? Do not leave any built-up tomb without levelling it, and do not leave any picture in any house without erasing it." (Reported by Muslim and al-Nisaa'i; this is the version narrated by al-Nisaa'i).

Ibn 'Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him and his father) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "Every image-maker will be in the Fire, and for every image that he made a soul will be created for him, which will be punished in the Fire." Ibn 'Abbaas said: "If you must do that, make pictures of trees and other inanimate objects." (Reported by Muslim, 3/1871)

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or pictures." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see al-Fath, 10/380

Taking pictures with a camera involves human actions such as focusing, pressing the shutter, developing, printing, and so on. We cannot call it anything other than "picture-making" or tasweer, which is the expression used by all Arabic-speakers to describe this action.

In the book Al-I'laam bi naqd kitaab al-halaal wa'l-haraam, the author says: "Photography is even more of an imitation of the creation of Allaah than pictures which are engraved or drawn, so it is even more deserving of being prohibited… There is nothing that could exclude photography from the general meaning of the reports." (p. 42, see also Fataawa Islamiyyah, 4/355).

Among the scholars who have discussed the issue of photography is Shaykh Naasir al-Deen al-Albaani, who said: "Some of them differentiate between hand-drawn pictures and photographic images by claiming that the latter are not products of human effort, and that no more is involved than the mere capturing of the image. This is what they claim. The tremendous energy invested the one who invented this machine that can do in few seconds what otherwise could not be done in hours does not count as human effort, according to these people! Pointing the camera, focusing it, and taking the picture, preceded by installation of the film and followed by developing and whatever else that I may not know about… none of this is the result of human effort, according to them!

Some of them explain how this photography is done, and summarize that no less than eleven different actions are involved in the making of a picture. In spite of all this, they say that this picture is not the result of human action! Can it be permissible to hang up a picture of a man, for example, if it is produced by photography, but not if it is drawn by hand?

Those who say that photography is permitted have "frozen" the meaning of the word "tasweer," restriciting it only to the meaning known at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and not adding the meaning of photography, which is "tasweer" or "picture-making" in every sense - linguistic, legal, and in its harmful effects, and as is clear from the definition mentioned above. Years ago, I said to one of them, By the same token, you could allow idols which have not been carved but have been made by pressing a button on some machine that turns out idols by the dozen. What do you say to that?"
(Aadaab al-Zafaaf by al-Albaani, p. 38)

now you will have those people who will say this is drawing only not camera well i say THE Prophet spoke arabic and Alhumdulillah islam is for all time and the prophet said tasweer and sura and musuwer all this are arabic words to mean picture when we take a picture with a camera it is called a sura so lets not full ourself or there are those will well say well this scholar says and that scholar says i say the prophet said and if anyone oppses the prophet then this is his mistake and if his ruling is from ijtihad then he will be rewarded but haqq is haqq

our role model is the prophet

and if any of you understand arabic and want more daleel and saying of the scholars of the old and new let me know and i get them for you insha Allah

"It is not fit for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Messenger has indeed strayed in a plain manner." (33:36)

Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said: “None of you truly believes until I am more beloved to him than his father, his child and all of mankind.” [Bukharee and Muslim]

“Say (O Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam)): 'If you truly love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins.” [Soorah al-Imraan (3): 31]

The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said: “All the people of my Ummah will enter Paradise except he who refuses.” The Companions (radhi allahu anhu) asked: 'Who refuses?' The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) explained: “He who obeys me will enter Paradise and he who disobeys me is as if he has denied me.” [Saheeh Bukharee]

On this occasion Allah revealed the following verse: “And those who obey Allah and the Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam), they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophet, the Siddiqun (those followers of the Prophet who were first and foremost to believe in them, like Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (radhi allahu anhu)), the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are!” [Soorah an-Nisa (4): 69]

"And whatsoever the Messenger gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment." (59:7)

"But no, by your Lord, they can have no (real) faith until they make you (Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." (4:65)

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is better and more suitable for final determination." (4:59)

"And obey Allah and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with each other), lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allah is with those who are patient." (8:46)

from this ayah and ahadith we see that it is a must to obey Allah and the messenger and to return our affairs to them
Reply

nature
12-10-2010, 01:32 PM
:sl:

Excuse my ignorance, ive briefly scanned over this and have a few q's.

Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
the singing and musical instruments of the Shaytaan; and musical instruments which are of no spiritual or worldly benefit.

What about nasheeds then ? Ive only ever heard a couple on the islamic channels, but i thort this was ok ? but im pretty sure they have drums in the background music.

Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam
I didnt know that. I just thort kufr music was haram.


Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
companions clearly stated that it is haraam to listen to all musical instruments such as the flute and the drum, even tapping a stick.
In school, esp nurseries, they teach kids all this stuff. Ive even bought a glockenspiel ages ago for a young cousin to play with, so is that classed as sin on my part ? how do we get round this, if we send our children to a nursery, and the main things they do is, music ?


Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
Taking pictures with a camera involves human actions such as focusing, pressing the shutter, developing, printing, and so on. We cannot call it anything other than "picture-making" or tasweer, which is the expression used by all Arabic-speakers to describe this action.
I understand the drawing thing, but i thort pictures if limited was allowed ? as long as they arent displayed everywhere in the home ?
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Woodrow
12-10-2010, 02:13 PM
:wa:

To be honest there are several things I can think of that I wish were not haram as they seem to be harmless. But, the simple fact is something is haram not because it is harmful, it is haram because Allaah(swt) has forbidden it to us.

Haram is not always just to protect us although that is often the case, it is also an exercise in faith and obedience. It is easy to avoid the haram that causes us pain, but it takes love of Allaah(swt) to avoid the haram we would enjoy and see no harm in.

We only need to know something has been forbidden by Allaah(swt) there should be no need to seek out any secret reason behind it being so.
Reply

أبو سليمان عمر
12-10-2010, 04:31 PM
Excuse my ignorance, ive briefly scanned over this and have a few q's.
Insha Allah you should read it all

What about nasheeds then ? Ive only ever heard a couple on the islamic channels, but i thort this was ok ? but im pretty sure they have drums in the background music.
First akhi i would like to say there are better ways to past time or increase iman then listening to nasheeds personally i dont like them but as for the ones that the munashid is singing it like a song has instruments in the back doing music video like the kufr and dance trying to rap them it is not permissable and if it takes to much of a persons time it is not permissable

I didnt know that. I just thort kufr music was haram.
Masha Allah akhi if what you mean here is now you know then Alhumdulillah i love to see brothers and sister accpting the haqq but to answer this no akhi it isnt permissable at all i read that some or maybe one i dont remember of the salaf said there isnt enough room in the heart to have love for both meaning music and quran


In school, esp nurseries, they teach kids all this stuff. Ive even bought a glockenspiel ages ago for a young cousin to play with, so is that classed as sin on my part ? how do we get round this, if we send our children to a nursery, and the main things they do is, music ?
as for is it a sin on your part then no we are not accounted for that which we didnt know if it wasnt due to neglecting to knowing meaning you dont want to learn it for the sake that u wont be question but if you didnt know becasue it hasnt came to you then no sin Insha Allah as for what should we do we need to remember that we are all shepherds and will be asked about our flock and a man is his family shepherd and need to try to rasie them islamicly a child doesnt love music he grows to love it and by allowing our children to go to school and learn this might make them love this thing and become attached to it my advice is that we should look for alternatives




I understand the drawing thing, but i thort pictures if limited was allowed ? as long as they arent displayed everywhere in the home ?
[/QUOTE]
there is a few scholars who say this but the hadiths are clear and we refer back to them and we dont look for difference in opinion rather we look for haqq picture are permissible if it is necessary such as I.D cards passport photos taking picture of criminals for purpose of finding them etc with saying this i would like to remind myself and others that this hadith im going to post is very nice and straight to it and if alot of us took this and acted on it we will be saved insha Allah

“That which is Halaal is clear and that which is Haraam is clear, and between the two of them are certain doubtful (mutashabihat) matters many people are unaware of. Thus he who avoids certain doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honour, but he who falls into certain doubtful matters (eventually) falls into that which is Haraam, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allaah’s sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh, which, if it be whole, all the body is whole, and which, if it is diseased, all of (the body) is diseased. Truly, it is the heart.”
[Related by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.
Reply

Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Wa alaykum salam,
Originally Posted by Tyrion
First off, what do you do when it comes to movies? Pretty much all of them contain music, so do you just avoid them all? Is it the same with tv and most internet videos? Or are there exceptions made? Also, when it comes to pictures... If you get really technical, cartoons would count as pictures I suppose... So do you guys avoid those as well? How about books with images? Or even web pages that use drawings?
There's a difference between a. indulging in something whilst knowing and acknowledging it to be haram and b. doing it but under the pretence that it is not wrong.

Ideally, one would avoid most of these things you mention by way of example but in this day and age, in practice, it is near impossible.

My personal opinion is that movies (obv non-Islamic) and TV are a big waste of time and huge source of fitnah, corrupter of morals and desensitising agent, hence I try to avoid them as much as possible. If and when I do watch something, I do so realising full well that I am doing something wrong.

It's better to avoid cartoons but books and web pages with images cannot be avoided due to practical reasons.
Reply

IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Also, is there anyone else on the board who also has the view that these two things aren't haram?
No, you're not, but every time I've tried to explain why they are not haraam the mods edit it out or delete the post. It's a shame, because in actual reality truth (whatever that truth happens to be) always looks even truer when compared to falsehood, so you'd think being allowed to express a dissenting opinion, even if it's wrong, would be a good thing. Not to them, though: don't be surprised if this thread gets quickly locked like so many others. Tolerance is virtually nonexistent here. As much as I love my religion itself I despise the way it's practiced. It has become corrupted in the same way that Catholicism corrupted Christianity, in which the church fathers (or in our case, scholars) are treated as though they were infallible, at least if 51% or more of them happen to agree, and anyone who goes against the majority is not merely unorthodox or minority but an outright blasphemer. These are not good times for our religion or for open-mindedness in general.
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Grace Seeker
12-10-2010, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yahya Sulaiman again.

This is why I respect you even when you strongly object to my posts and argue with me. You do think for yourself and aren't just a parrot of other people's ideas.
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Perseveranze
12-10-2010, 06:14 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

In regards to Music I can see why it's haram. Although the likes of Sami Yusuf will disagree and say that there's nothing wrong with it, Scholars have put up good practical reasons as to why it's not right.

I used to listen to Sami Yusuf (who's a nasheed artist that uses Music), at first I used to listen to the nasheed for the beautiful messages they represented, but sooner or later, the music sort of takes over and before you know it, your listening to it because of it's sound and the message is pretty much thrown out the window. That's what Music can do and in a sense I can understand why it's haram.

Nothing should sound better to you than the recitation of the Quran, if someone does then you need to stop listening to that. Imagine if people recited the Quran with Music in the background? Would people still take note of the Quran which is a healing or will the music begin to poison the mind?

With Pictures, I just heard you can't draw life or any of Allah(swt)'s creation (you can draw sceneries and stuff though). Read some hadith that said that on Judgement day Allah(swt) will show you these pictures and then ask you to create them. Maybe this relates to the Quranic verse which forbids the "altering of Allah(swt)'s creation".

I am pretty sure with Islam there's always some reason for everything, just for some things you have to think harder as to why it's forbidden.
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 06:24 PM
Tyrion, for clarification, do you follow actual scholars when you believe music + animate drawings are not haram or do you just go with the flow based on the opinions of people around you?
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Although the likes of Sami Yusuf will disagree and say that there's nothing wrong with it, Scholars have put up good practical reasons as to why it's not right.
Sigh. I guess I have to try to make myself heard. All I can do is hope this gets read before it gets deleted.

If you want to talk about music in practical terms, let's. Everything in this world has potential drawbacks as well as positive benefits. That's just life and its glorious complexity for you. Music is nothing special in that regard, but it has a LOT of positive practical benefits. It can motivate you when you're feeling listless. It can cheer you up when you're blue. It can make positive messages (including Islamic ones; c.f. Yusuf Islam) heard in a more appealing way and to larger audiences than might be easily done otherwise. It can raise money for charity, as with the Rock Bottom Remainders, "We Are the World", U2, etc. It can keep you going during exercise and improve your performance by relieving the tedium, distracting you from the pain, and motivating you. (I find it very difficult to engage in strenuous workouts without it.) Music is one of the world's most famously effective educational tools due to its amazing ability to make things easier to memorize, and can be used well for everyday pnemonics as well. Two spouses having "a song" can help their bond and improve a romantic atmosphere, and sometimes listening to emotional music can be quite cathartic. I could probably go on with more practical uses but I think I've said enough already.
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GuestFellow
12-10-2010, 06:28 PM
Salaam,

All scholars are in an agreement that music that promotes nationalism or haraam activities is forbidden. The vast majority of musics promoted by Hollywood and Bollywood are haraam. Some scholars state certain type of music is permissible (IslamOnline), while others say it is forbidden (IslamQA). It is important to be aware of all scholarly views.

I think it is best to avoid listening to music because I find it hard to concentrate when I'm praying, studying or going to sleep. The music remains within my head and repeats over and over again. The same for advertisements.

Click here to read about drawing

IslamQA gives a different view on drawing. Check the website for further details.
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Yahya, with all due respect, none of that is a reason for the permissibility of music. One could just as well bring a list of other haram alternatives which can also promote the same positive outcomes you mention (might do it later, pressed for time atm). What does it prove?

As Woodrow has said, if Allah has deemed it impermissible, then it is up to us to submit to the rule.

Now, the way we can know if something is allowed or not is to refer to the Qur'aan and the example of the Prophet peace be upon him, his companions and the people who came after.

If there is something from this that suggests music is haram, then it is incumbent upon all sincere people to follow it. Clearly, there is scholarly consensus on this issue and its foundation is from Quraan and Sunnah.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 06:35 PM
I haven't seen very much Bollywood but not all Hollywood music promotes nationalism. In fact, not that I'm recommending him but Michael Moore's movies are about as anti-America as it gets and they still contain music. So did Robocop, which Paul Verhoeven meant as a satire or condemnation of America (although it didn't always come across that way to Americans). On the other hand, Eisenstein's infamous Russian film The Battleship Potemkin did not, I think, have its own set score at all (as it was silent). You mustn't make stereotypes.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 06:39 PM
I wasn't trying to say that permissibility comes from usefulness. I was responding to what someone else had said about music not having practical value at all.

I am permitted to disagree with scholarly consensus whether you think I am or not, and I think that in this case at least their interpretations are flawed and selective and reflect their own biases. May it be on my own head for daring to think for myself.

It's amazing that I've made it this far without getting a post deleted.
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GuestFellow
12-10-2010, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I haven't seen very much Bollywood but not all Hollywood music promotes nationalism.
Salaam,

I think you were referring to my post. I never said Bollywood and Hollywood music promotes nationalism. I said music that promotes nationalism is haraam. Like the God save the Queen song, that would be considered haraam.

Everyone should note that if it is not clear why something is haraam, it is probably because we lack knowledge.

I've heard during the time of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), he told his followers not to engage in certain acts. It was not clear in those days what was harmful about those acts but now, due to scientific advancements, we've understood why those acts were haraam.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 06:55 PM
Pardon me, GuestFellow. I misunderstood.
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Perseveranze
12-10-2010, 06:57 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Interestingly enough, some Scholars may agree with Yahya.

Wa`alykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thanks for your question, which reflects the great confidence you place in us. We implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

In his response to the question you posed, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“Music is an issue that has been hotly debated by scholars of the past and the present. While many of them have been generally inclined to condemn all forms of music, with the singular exception of ad-duff (tambourine) in weddings, quite a few of them have taken a more positive approach of considering only music containing sensual, pagan, or unethical themes or subliminal messages as being categorically forbidden.

The latter view seems to be more consistent with the general nature of Islam, which is undoubtedly a complete way of life that caters to all of the genuine human instincts and needs within permissible limits. Thus, to say that all music is forbidden in Islam does not seem to agree with the balanced approach of Islam to issues of human life and experience.

Traditions often cited by the first group scholars to justify condemnation of all musical instruments and music, according to some scholars, are considered as either spurious, or phrased in such way solely because of their associations with drinking, dancing, and sensuality.

While everyone agrees that all forms of music that contain pagan, sensual themes, or subliminal messages are clearly forbidden, the latter group of scholars considers all forms of music free of such themes and messages as permissible.

As a matter of fact, we know from the authentic traditions that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, not only allowed music in the weddings but also listened to girls singing: While listening to girls singing on such an occasion, he interrupted them only once when they sang the following verse, “In our midst is a prophet who knows what will happen tomorrow”; whence, the Prophet, peace be upon him, told them, “Cut this sentence out, and continue singing what you have been singing earlier.” There is nothing in the sources to indicate that the above permission is limited to the occasion of wedding, as some people tend to think.

In light of these, according to the last mentioned group of scholars, music that is deemed to be free of un-Islamic and unethical themes and messages, the same is true of musical instruments so long as they are not used for the above, have been considered as permissible.

But we have to stress that Islam clearly prohibits mixed dancing of males and females.”
Source - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503545728

So by the above does it mean Sami Yusuf that promotes Islamic messages in his music is fine?
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nature
12-10-2010, 07:02 PM
:sl:


Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
Insha Allah you should read it all
I have now. Jazakhallah.

Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
First akhi i would like to say there are better ways to past time or increase iman then listening to nasheeds personally i dont like them but as for the ones that the munashid is singing it like a song has instruments in the back doing music video like the kufr and dance trying to rap them it is not permissable and if it takes to much of a persons time it is not permissable
I dont really have that much free time, that i sit and listen to music. I knew certain types werent appropraite cos of the lyrics, but no-one could really tell me why its haram apart from cos its compiled by non religious folk. that to me is not a propa explanation. I presume sami yusuf music would be impermissable then as well? seen as though its got music in it ?


Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
Masha Allah akhi if what you mean here is now you know then Alhumdulillah i love to see brothers and sister accpting the haqq but to answer this no akhi it isnt permissable at all i read that some or maybe one i dont remember of the salaf said there isnt enough room in the heart to have love for both meaning music and quran
Your right! Jazakhallah for the indepth answer. I only listen to it really whilst travelling to work, but ive not bothered 4 a while now, and thort about replacing it with nasheeds, just as time pass, for travelling. I'm gona delete that stuff now anyway.

Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
as for is it a sin on your part then no we are not accounted for that which we didnt know if it wasnt due to neglecting to knowing meaning you dont want to learn it for the sake that u wont be question but if you didnt know becasue it hasnt came to you then no sin Insha Allah as for what should we do we need to remember that we are all shepherds and will be asked about our flock and a man is his family shepherd and need to try to rasie them islamicly a child doesnt love music he grows to love it and by allowing our children to go to school and learn this might make them love this thing and become attached to it my advice is that we should look for alternatives
they usually teach music to kids in nursery, so i expect it would be hard to teach a child that young haram/halal.

Originally Posted by أبو سليمان عمر
there is a few scholars who say this but the hadiths are clear and we refer back to them and we dont look for difference in opinion rather we look for haqq picture are permissible if it is necessary such as I.D cards passport photos taking picture of criminals for purpose of finding them etc with saying this i would like to remind myself and others that this hadith im going to post is very nice and straight to it and if alot of us took this and acted on it we will be saved insha Allah
I remember seeing a programme on the islam channel saying it was permissable, as long as they werent displayed everywhere. what about making videos of family events such as weddings just for memories?
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nature
12-10-2010, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
It's better to avoid cartoons
I dont understand this ? kids grow up watching this sort of stuff ? theres even islamic cartoons on the islam channel ?

Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Everyone should note that if it is not clear why something is haraam, it is probably because we lack knowledge.
agree. I just dont understand sometimes why everything has to turn into a big argument on this forum ? instead of peaceful discussion ? like you sed, some of us lack knowledge.
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Insaanah
12-10-2010, 07:13 PM
:sl:

The hadeeth quoted in the fatwa posted by Br perseveranze talks about singing and does not talk about musical instruments. But then, without quoting any hadeeth as evidence, goes on to say:

Originally Posted by Perseveranze
the same is true of musical instruments so long as they are not used for the above, have been considered as permissible.
This is what rasoolullah :saws: said about musical instruments:

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).

Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This is a saheeh hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh, where he quoted it as evidence and stated that it is mu’allaq and majzoom. He said: Chapter on what was narrated concerning those who permit alcohol and call it by another name.

This hadeeth indicates in two ways that musical instruments and enjoyment of listening to music are haraam. The first is the fact that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “[they] permit” which clearly indicates that the things mentioned, including musical instruments, are haraam according to sharee’ah, but those people will permit them. The second is the fact that musical instruments are mentioned alongside things which are definitely known to be haraam, i.e., zinaa and alcohol: if they (musical instruments) were not haraam, why would they be mentioned alongside these things? (adapted from al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 1/140-141)

Shaykh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyah) (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: This hadeeth indicates that ma’aazif are haraam, and ma’aazif means musical instruments according to the scholars of (Arabic) language. This word includes all such instruments. (al-Majmoo’, 11/535).
Brief extract from full source: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/5000/music

Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I am permitted to disagree with scholarly consensus whether you think I am or not, and I think that in this case at least their interpretations are flawed and selective and reflect their own biases. May it be on my own head for daring to think for myself.
The four imams are in unanimous agreement of music being haraam, Sheikh Ibn al Qayyim, Ibn Taymiyyah, Sheikh Al-Albaani and many, many others, including sahaabah, taabieen, followers of taabieen are agreed that music is haraam. Their evidence has been based on saheeh ahadeeth and Qur'anic exegesis. May Allah forgive them all for their "flawed and selective interpretations and reflections of their own biases." I submit that it was precisely due to people "thinking for themselves" that other religions got changed, and that is it precisely due to us sticking to the Qur'an and sunnah and not making up our own interpretations that our deen has not been corrupted, alhamdulillah.

:sl:
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
I wasn't trying to say that permissibility comes from usefulness. I was responding to what someone else had said about music not having practical value at all.
Fair enough.

I am permitted to disagree with scholarly consensus whether you think I am or not, and I think that in this case at least their interpretations are flawed and selective and reflect their own biases. May it be on my own head for daring to think for myself.
You are permitted to believe as you please, yes. However, if you then wish to go on and promote something that goes against the consensus then you will find people (rightfully, imo) attacking such beliefs.
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Tyrion
12-10-2010, 07:26 PM
Please don't let this become a debate thread... I've heard the arguments before, so can we focus on the questions I brought up and not the permissibility of music/drawing?

Originally Posted by Bedouin
Tyrion, for clarification, do you follow actual scholars when you believe music + animate drawings are not haram or do you just go with the flow based on the opinions of people around you?
While I've been told that my position is not the majority, based on my own research there do exist legitimate scholarly opinions that disagree with the mainstream. I've researched these, and I personally find the reasoning and evidences more convincing.

Once again though, I don't want to get into a debate about who's right and who's wrong. I've heard all the debates before, and I'm pretty sure having another one here won't do anyone any good. I would like however for people to at least acknowledge that there can be a different view on the matter.... That would be nice. But yeah, let's stay on topic and refrain from debating por favor. :p
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 07:29 PM
Scholars are only human, even in great numbers. Even if those numbers are quadrillions. Of course I am too, and so are you. Our religion went wrong the day we elevated them from merely being heirs of the prophets in terms of what their task is to being actually tantamount to prophets in terms of accuracy. It is no better than Catholicism with their cardinals and popes, or for that matter any secular branch of academia where anyone holding minority viewpoints is sneered at and spat upon, even though academics should know better than anyone else that most of the greatest discoveries in history which led to majority viewpoints today came from people who originally got that treatment.
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Tyrion
12-10-2010, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
No, you're not, but every time I've tried to explain why they are not haraam the mods edit it out or delete the post. It's a shame, because in actual reality truth (whatever that truth happens to be) always looks even truer when compared to falsehood, so you'd think being allowed to express a dissenting opinion, even if it's wrong, would be a good thing. Not to them, though: don't be surprised if this thread gets quickly locked like so many others. Tolerance is virtually nonexistent here. As much as I love my religion itself I despise the way it's practiced. It has become corrupted in the same way that Catholicism corrupted Christianity, in which the church fathers (or in our case, scholars) are treated as though they were infallible, at least if 51% or more of them happen to agree, and anyone who goes against the majority is not merely unorthodox or minority but an outright blasphemer. These are not good times for our religion or for open-mindedness in general.
It's good to know that I'm not the only one here with certain views. :p

I love my religion itself I despise the way it's practiced.
This reminded me of something a speaker once said in a lecture... Something about a recent convert to Islam who had told him something along the lines of, "Thank God I learned about Islam before I met the Muslims." I found it terribly sad, but at the same time a very understandable thing to say...
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Insaanah
12-10-2010, 07:39 PM
:sl:

There is no analogy to be even remotely made between cardinals and popes that corrupted Christianity/Catholicism, and our sahaabah, taabieen, followers of taabieen and righteous scholars who guarded Islam.

:sl:
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CosmicPathos
12-10-2010, 07:41 PM
The reasons yahya gave for music being beneficial, one might derive the same benefit from committing zina. Committing zina with a new woman every week relieves many males from worldly tensions. blah blah. Of course Allah has clearly forbidden zina in Quran. But just like how you said everything in life has good and bad sides, then perhaps apply that to zina too, maybe it has good sides too, at least in the minds of those who commit it. Does it make it right? no, since Allah has called it filthy.
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 07:41 PM
Scholars are heirs and are to be afforded the appropriate respect.

Saying that, nobody should hold any individual scholar to be perfect and infallible. Scholars use their ijtihaad on doubtful matters after having done many years of study of primary sources. It is because of this knowledge that they are in a posistion to give out judgements.

We are told in the Quraan to ask those who know. This is why it is wise of us who lack knowledge to follow the understanding of those who have studied. One lone scholar may make a mistake which is why it would be better to go with consensus.
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Perseveranze
12-10-2010, 07:47 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'll just avoid Music simply because it's too debated and there's some doubt. But I won't go around saying it's haram or anything, just a personal avoidance of it.
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 07:48 PM
The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.
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CosmicPathos
12-10-2010, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.
I have to agree. Many scholars have said that the prohibition of music is actually directly mentioned in Quran. What do your immature internet warrior Muslim youngsters do? Go to usc msa website, get the English translation of that verse and tell us "aaha, music is not mentioned in Quran." As much funny it sounds, it is really damaging many young Muslims.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by mad_scientist
The reasons yahya gave for music being beneficial, one might derive the same benefit from committing zina. Committing zina with a new woman every week relieves many males from worldly tensions. blah blah. Of course Allah has clearly forbidden zina in Quran. But just like how you said everything in life has good and bad sides, then perhaps apply that to zina too, maybe it has good sides too, at least in the minds of those who commit it. Does it make it right? no, since Allah has called it filthy.
What did I say before? That I didn't mean that music is permissible just for having useful properties, but instead was rebutting someone who said that it didn't have any.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
The question I ask is, how can we people who have not studied arabic rhetoric, arabic morphology, arabic lexicology, nor have the complete Sahih Sita memorised in arabic, along with knowledge of the science of hadith collection and classification, Quranic exegis, asbab al nuzul (the circumstances of revelation), the rules of abrogation - for both the Quran and Sunna and understanding of the ijtihad of the 4 rightly guided caliphs even think to question the judgement of people who have?

How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.
Because there is no law of the universe stating that learned people cannot be wrong, even in consensus, nor in ways that those with less educational credentials cannot spot. It actually happens all the time, with both religious and secular subjects. All branches of academia are equally plagued with biases taught as part of the curriculum itself. Funny how you never hear anyone applying such logic to evolution: you know less about science than their learned scholars do and they have reached a very huge consensus, but does that automatically mean they're right and you have no right to speak out in disagreement? You can't have it both ways.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 08:12 PM
How this thread managed to make it to a third page is beyond me. Perhaps the mods haven't seen it yet, otherwise one of them surely must have locked it with a post containing some kind of tendentious final word of their own.
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aamirsaab
12-10-2010, 08:15 PM
I do not think any of us here are qualified to take on the words of scholars. Be that as it may, I do know of some dodgy stuff that goes amongst certain circles of alleged scholars and sheiks (with particular regards to Islamic banking).

To cut straight to the point: we should always be mindful of our teachings. Do not just follow blindly; if you feel the need to investigate on a particular matter, do so. Not everything in Islam is black and white.
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GuestFellow
12-10-2010, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Bedouin
How can the unlearned think they are in a position to correct the knowledgeable with their flimsy understanding? It doesn't make any rational sense.
:sl:

All humans do this. For example, I've met some Muslims that disagree with evolution and believe scientists are incorrect. However, these Muslims have not studied Science at all, some did not even pass their GCSE Science, let alone be in the position to challenge a Scientist holding a Ph.D and studied evolution for years. Some people question politicians who haven't got a clue about how the political system is organised or how policies are introduced. Some even question historians who have studied history for years.

There are many Muslims that question scholars who have studied Islam for years. Some believe there is a possibility that they might be wrong. I'm sure all of us can agree that even the most intelligent scholar can make a mistake, it is a possibility. Some Muslims believe these scholars are influenced by their own culture or some don't trust them at all.

The only mistake these type of people make is challenging scholars, without having studied Islam properly.

All I can say if you disagree with another Muslim, whether educated or not, disagree respectfully.
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Alpha Dude
12-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
Because there is no law of the universe stating that learned people cannot be wrong, even in consensus, nor in ways that those with less educational credentials cannot spot. It actually happens all the time, with both religious and secular subjects. All branches of academia are equally plagued with biases taught as part of the curriculum itself.
Of course they can be wrong but their mistakes should be taken to task by other learned people and this happens all the time and it's perfectly acceptable.

However, lay people who know jack about the sciences are only acting on their arrogance and ego when they claim with no scholarly reason that a mistake has been made.

Music is not haraam, ok - why? What proofs from within Islamic sources have you seen to make you question the consensus? If you can show proof, then that's fine and can be respected as a difference of opinion but if your only proof is something like 'music has a lot of benefit in it and I personally find it to be ok' then it's meaningless.

Funny how you never hear anyone applying such logic to evolution: you know less about science than their learned scholars do and they have reached a very huge consensus, but does that automatically mean they're right and you have no right to speak out in disagreement? You can't have it both ways.
This analogy doesn't apply here. Of course a scholar of evolution will know more about evolution than a lay person like myself but it would not be evolutionary proof that I would take them to task on, rather I would challenge them with the proof of Islam being true (which would automatically render the evolutionary conclusion a moot one).
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Insaanah
12-10-2010, 08:37 PM
:sl:

It is sad to see analogies being made between haqq and baatil, Islamic knowledge and evolution, and rightly guided sahaabah and scholars being compared with Christian cardinals and popes.

:sl:
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Tyrion
12-10-2010, 09:33 PM
Uhmm, can we get back on topic please? This thread was not created to start a debate, and I fear that a mod will close it soon if you all don't get back on track.
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IAmZamzam
12-10-2010, 09:57 PM
I'll gladly get back on track if they will. I'm sick of all this scorn. And the genuine bottom line has already been given:

I we should always be mindful of our teachings. Do not just follow blindly; if you feel the need to investigate on a particular matter, do so. Not everything in Islam is black and white.
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Woodrow
12-10-2010, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Uhmm, can we get back on topic please? This thread was not created to start a debate, and I fear that a mod will close it soon if you all don't get back on track.
You have just won the prize for being correct. That may be the most correct thing said in this entire thread:

:threadclo:
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