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Rafeeq
12-15-2010, 07:56 AM
Following column was published in a Pakistani Newspaper "Daily Express" by Orya Maqbool Jan. I am posting it but due to shortage of time, I can not translate it in english. I will do it soon, till then Urdu readers can enjoy.




PS: I also request any brother or sister who have few minutes to translate it for english readers.
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Rafeeq
12-16-2010, 09:41 AM
Dear friends, :wa:

Below is the translation of above column. Poeple who understand english can enjoy it now. Do let me know about your comments.

Sky reaching high rise buildings, huge shopping malls situated in deserts with built-in ice skating playground which are the games of highly snowing areas, western fast food outlets, very large entertainment complexes, having very small population but stadiums with millions of people capacity, every kind of luxury all around the world and call girls from around the globe, all this is happening in those countries which are rich in our resources. Most of their high rise buildings are empty infect, because the owners of those flats and offices are living in other countries, where they collected all that wealth by all means of corruption, smuggling, storing necessities to increase prices and other illegal sources and invested it in flats, shopping malls and offices in these countries considering them safe.

Reasons are found to spend money in these countries, like conduct Asian games, organize cricket matches, host tennis tournaments and than start widening roads, building over-head bridges, underpasses, and lines of hotels and residences. All these countries are part of Muslim Umma and were part of Othman Caliphate till 20th centaury. That was the time, when oil was discovered in those areas and big renowned oil companies of the world were staring with greed at them. At the other hand, west was thinking, if Othman Caliphate had had wealth of oil also, it would appear with such a power which could not be defended. It was the time, when Britain’s secret agency MI-6 awarded “Laurence of Arabia” the task to divide the Ummah. Again, same old prescription was tested, same old seed was cultivated which Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was sent to remove and destroy and he cleared in his last address (Hujja tul Widaa) that idols of your casts, races and complexions are broken down under my feet today. The same racism and cast system was painted in Muslim Ummah. Hashmi Governer of Makkah was reminded his superiority of race and ignited against Turks to get libration. Army from New Zealand and Australia were brought and areas were librated and than information were passed on to governor of Makkah that your followers established Qureshi government in such and such areas. If it was stopped at racism and complexion division, fear of west was not reduced from a huge Arab country which was also rich in oil. Now this complete area was further divided on the basis of tribes.

Even having common religion, common language, same area and same cultural history, this area was cut such a way like cracks are built on ground when it dries after flood i.e. Iraq, Serya, Labnon, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Umm-ul-Quwain, Sharjah, Fujairah, Muscat, Yemen and Egypt etc. Each tribe and each area was kept in hunger and scantiness for years. It is a bitter fact that these Khaleej countries were looting Hajj Caravans or petting goats and camels for their needs. But each one wanted to remain separate and segregated. That was the sharp time when America and western oil companies started investing in oil there and stated duggin oil wells. During that period, when Muslims were divided, an agreement was signed with Jews which is known as Balfour Declaration of 1917. According to which, Jews of the world were promised to let them have a piece of land.

Muslim Ummah was divided. Laurance of Arabia dreaming an independent country of Israel and taking about it on several forums left the world after dividing that nation in the age of 37, but Jews could not get Israel. It was not to let them reside there until oil wealth was not come under control of western oil companies. Than only, an Israeli government was to establish in the heart of that area to threaten Arabs as per plan. Hence, in 1948, illegal existence of Israel was announced. Those few Muslims, who believed it was a great conspiracy, fought daringly with Israelis. Young Saddam Hussein was also one of them. That mistake made by him was never forgotten and even having very good friendship with America, he was brought to a terrible end.

Now, there were Arabs, divide among each other, segregated in areas and tribes having oil wealth, how to threaten them was the question - so that their wealth could be controlled in western hands. Israel was established for this purpose and as soon as it became a bit stable, it started war against Arabs in 1967. Only after six days of war, Israel expanded itself to 4 times of its original volume as of 1948 fighting against those segregated Arab tribes. In that war, from money to ammunition to Israel, every thing was provided by America and its allies. This war was not to succeed Jews but to use Arabs anger for their benefit. Anwar Sadat of Egypt was pushed to take revenge and he attached Israel in 1973. During that period, an Arab leader decided to use oil as a war-tool, he was King Faisal of Saudi Arabia. War was broke on 6 October and oil prices were raised by 70% on 16 October and by January 1974, oil prices were reached 700%. A large number of cars and vehicles were observed during those days in entire America and Europe. It was an outstanding & strange shortage crisis. King Faisal was murdered and other Arab princes were frightened. It was the time when America published such a large no. of dollars and had no gold to support it. When France asked gold in exchange from America, crisis started. Since, till than, currency was published on international gold standard.

Now time comes of bargains and adroitness. Forcibly deployed Muslim leaders were threatened from Israel and from their own people, and an agreement was made which turned America rich and powerful. America made them agree that whoever would buy oil, transaction would be in Dollars. By that treaty, America was printing dollar notes and for its standard oil was available. Oil standard was introduced to the world by them like that. Now who ever, even very poor country, wants oil, will purchase dollars first and America with just printing paper currency is getting rich and powerful. Muslims are kept frightened and busy in foolish games. They are allowed to conduct games but not to establish universities. They are allowed to build hotels but not to set industry.

Everybody knows, if this Muslim Ummah announced once that they will not sell their oil in dollars, it will drop down below from the level of any third world poor country. But these racist Arabs and threatened leaders from their own people can never do so. West is only afraid of only thing which is unity of Muslim Ummah - Muslim Caliphate. If Europe can unite under common currency, common constitution and common parliament, why Muslim Ummah can not. If it happened, this idea will be enough to remove dreams from the eyes of European and western world.
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Rafeeq
12-17-2010, 06:56 AM
:omg: not a single person read / commented this. I was thinking to send this to heads of gulf states:shade:
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سيف الله
12-24-2010, 01:32 PM
Salaam

Thanks for the article, alternatively the problems that Muslims are facing can be summed up with one picture.

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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

Thanks for the article, alternatively the problems that Muslims are facing can be summed up with one picture.

Really? Just recently Al Qaeda slaughtered 68 people in a Coptic church in Egypt. I think the Islamic world has far more problems on its plate than a relationship with the rest of the world.
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جوري
12-27-2010, 12:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Really? Just recently Al Qaeda slaughtered 68 people in a Coptic church in Egypt. I think the Islamic world has far more problems on its plate than a relationship with the rest of the world.

really Al Qaeda is all over Egypt slaughtering copts in churches or are you on PCP? funny stuff from the board Jester!
Which church in Egypt I happen to be familiar with many of them!
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 12:49 AM
I'm sorry, I meant Iraq. My mistake.
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جوري
12-27-2010, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
I'm sorry, I meant Iraq. My mistake.

They're all over Iraq too? funny thing Copts aren't Iraqi.. in fact the word Copt means Egyptian (look it up) and generally do so before engaging in any topic..
Isn't it amazing that all these so-called internal wars didn't exist between folks who have lived side by side for millenniums before foreign invasion?

here is some reading flatulentCarl

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...aq-475889.html

Robert Fisk: Seen through a Syrian lens, 'unknown Americans' are provoking civil war in Iraq



if you're silly, your public is foolish and media is manipulative, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world is going to join your band wagon. The locals are actually quite unto your ilk.. After all Iraq is the birth place of civilization.
stay in school kid and pay attention in class, or did they cut down govt. spending from your local PS?
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 12:56 AM
Nice op/ed.

Heres some actual reporting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101226/...ans_threatened
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 12:57 AM
Also are you justifying Al Qaeda's actions?
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Zafran
12-27-2010, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Also are you justifying Al Qaeda's actions?
what are you here for alqeada sympathizes? Maybe going to Iraq and afgahnistan might help you find them.
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جوري
12-27-2010, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Nice op/ed.

Heres some actual reporting:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101226/...ans_threatened
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Also are you justifying Al Qaeda's actions?
Corporate media feeds into the local Jester's minds.. you fit right in. I don't know who 'Al Qaeda' is to congratulate or condemn their action, they're probably an american myth like the mangod, Santa clause, and the easter bunny.. Some real reporting comes from real reporters, who write for independent sources and can cite their stories with actual events and eye witnesses and win awards for outstanding reporting, not concocted tapes and scripted writing to be dispensed with some party's ratings are dropping!

you're so pathetic it is almost an insult to reply back to you.. please take a hike and quite wasting everyone's time with your sophomoric analysis of politics and puerile hiccups of the world around you!

all the best
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what are you here for alqeada sympathizes? Maybe going to Iraq and afgahnistan might help you find them.
I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're asking.
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جوري
12-27-2010, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
what are you here for alqeada sympathizes? Maybe going to Iraq and afgahnistan might help you find them.

I couldn't agree more, he should charge right on out of here and show everyone what a real charging man he is!
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Zafran
12-27-2010, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're asking.
I'm being frank with you - Its very clear what I'm asking - you do understand english right?
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't know who 'Al Qaeda' is to congratulate or condemn their action
They're an Islamic terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden.

they're probably an american myth like the mangod, Santa clause, and the easter bunny..
Do you actually believe this?

Some real reporting comes from real reporters, who write for independent sources and can cite their stories with actual events and eye witnesses and win awards for outstanding reporting, not concocted tapes and scripted writing to be dispensed with some party's ratings are dropping!
"Who write for independent sources"

I'll assume you mean independent publications, which is anything that isn't run by the state.


you're so pathetic it is almost an insult to reply back to you.. please take a hike and quite wasting everyone's time with your sophomoric analysis of politics and puerile hiccups of the world around you!

all the best
I don't believe personal insults are allowed on this site.
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I'm being frank with you - Its very clear what I'm asking - you do understand english right?
No I'm sorry you'll have to rephrase that for me, I cannot understand what you are asking.
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جوري
12-27-2010, 01:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
They're an Islamic terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden.
Really?


Do you actually believe this?
Try to expand your telescopic view of the world every now and then you might be surprised what turns up.



"Who write for independent sources"
Robert Fisk as an example, you've heard of him? try googling him, but I'd recommend you sign up for some basic vocational course to foster self-esteem instead!


I don't believe personal insults are allowed on this site.
Then report it!
all the best
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Ramadhan
12-27-2010, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Do you actually believe this?
You ACTUALLY believe that mangod, santa clause and the easter bunny exist??
:skeleton:
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جوري
12-27-2010, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran
I'm being frank with you - Its very clear what I'm asking - you do understand english right?

It Must be a problem with English indeed.. which is rather sad considering English and a keyboard is all a motley fool needs these days!
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Zafran
12-27-2010, 01:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
No I'm sorry you'll have to rephrase that for me, I cannot understand what you are asking. I know English is a second language for many posters here so I try to be as patient and understanding as possible.
Maybe english is your 4th or 5th language - but I'm sure you know exactly what I meant but if you want to play dumb thats fine by me just dont expect all of us here to play along.
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ChargerCarl
12-27-2010, 01:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
You ACTUALLY believe that mangod, santa clause and the easter bunny exist??
:skeleton:
Haha

maybe :D
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Ramadhan
12-27-2010, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Haha

maybe
Ah. That explains it all.

:statisfie
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Lynx
12-28-2010, 11:24 PM
Iran is the most powerful Muslim country at the moment & it ain't Sunni. Good luck.

IMHO the phenomenon of globalization is going to squash any caliphates.
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GuestFellow
12-29-2010, 12:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
They're an Islamic terrorist organization headed by Osama Bin Laden.
It is not as simple as that. There are some Muslims that want to attack western countries, American embassies and countries that support western countries. However, there is no uniform, code of conduct or anything to suggest that these Muslims are part of a big organisation, headed of Osama to take over the world.

So these threats exist, but they are not as efficient or dangerous or organised as the media makes them out to be.

I don't believe personal insults are allowed on this site.
Yes no insults.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Iran is the most powerful Muslim country at the moment & it ain't Sunni. Good luck.

IMHO the phenomenon of globalization is going to squash any caliphates.
Iran has been getting influence in Lebanon, Syria, south of Iraq and Hamas. Of course this troubles Sunni Arab countries. However, Iran is not exactly the most powerful country unless it gets nuclear weapons.

Pakistan does have nuclear weapons but I'm not sure how powerful their army is.

How will gobalization squash any caliphates?
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Lynx
12-29-2010, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Iran has been getting influence in Lebanon, Syria, south of Iraq and Hamas. Of course this troubles Sunni Arab countries. However, Iran is not exactly the most powerful country unless it gets nuclear weapons.

Pakistan does have nuclear weapons but I'm not sure how powerful their army is.

How will gobalization squash any caliphates?
oh ok. you're right about iran it does seem to be a big push over despite what its vocal leader's comment.


My comment about globalization was simply to say the world will turn secular before any caliphate can be created. it's my opinion that in the long run everyone is going to want to be part of a secular global community and they will pick that over Shariah. I don't mean to say it's any better than shariah or that there's something wrong with shariah; i am simply saying that i think the secular lifestyle will have a greater success in the future.
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Zafran
12-29-2010, 01:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
Iran is the most powerful Muslim country at the moment & it ain't Sunni. Good luck.

IMHO the phenomenon of globalization is going to squash any caliphates.
Turkey is still up there although its secular - and you clearly havent read Islamic history.
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Zafran
12-29-2010, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
oh ok. you're right about iran it does seem to be a big push over despite what its vocal leader's comment.


My comment about globalization was simply to say the world will turn secular before any caliphate can be created. it's my opinion that in the long run everyone is going to want to be part of a secular global community and they will pick that over Shariah. I don't mean to say it's any better than shariah or that there's something wrong with shariah; i am simply saying that i think the secular lifestyle will have a greater success in the future.
Dont think so and a secular lifestyle has very little "success" however you define success.
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GuestFellow
12-29-2010, 01:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
oh ok. you're right about iran it does seem to be a big push over despite what its vocal leader's comment.
It does have potential but it poor relations with western countries, ineffective economics policies under Ahmadinejad and sanctions has made progression difficult.

My comment about globalization was simply to say the world will turn secular before any caliphate can be created. it's my opinion that in the long run everyone is going to want to be part of a secular global community and they will pick that over Shariah. I don't mean to say it's any better than shariah or that there's something wrong with shariah; i am simply saying that i think the secular lifestyle will have a greater success in the future.
It does depend upon what you mean by success...we all have a different idea. I think the future is too unpredictable.

Even if the world adopts secularism as a form of governance, the system itself will not last forever. All empires rise and collapse.
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سيف الله
12-29-2010, 12:24 PM
Salaam

format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Really? Just recently Al Qaeda slaughtered 68 people in a Coptic church in Egypt. I think the Islamic world has far more problems on its plate than a relationship with the rest of the world.
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say, many problems like the one you mentioned are in part a result of western elites lust for the resources of the middle east and the lack of government that is responsive to the needs and wants of the population.

format_quote Originally Posted by Lynx
oh ok. you're right about iran it does seem to be a big push over despite what its vocal leader's comment.


My comment about globalization was simply to say the world will turn secular before any caliphate can be created. it's my opinion that in the long run everyone is going to want to be part of a secular global community and they will pick that over Shariah. I don't mean to say it's any better than shariah or that there's something wrong with shariah; i am simply saying that i think the secular lifestyle will have a greater success in the future.
Globalisation is not a new phenomenon, when Western nations controlled and exploited much of the world that could be described as a stage in globalisation of the world. What were experiencing now is much the same except on a grander scale with the introduction of new technologies (IT etc). However the idea of globalisation with the inevitable 'westernisation' of the world is fanciful to say the least. These same argument's were made over a century ago, you know, the 'white mans burden' rhetoric - how the 'civilised' nations of the world must uplift the 'lesser' peoples and how the 'lesser' peoples are clamouring to become 'cvilised' etc etc. Tiresome drivel to say the least.

Might surprise you Lynx most people don't want to live under an economic system dominated by the values Euroamerican elites.

For those wanting a more accurate analysis of the phenomenon of globalisation this is a good place to start.



And the idea that the world is becoming more 'secular' (in the European sense) is open to some serious question. In fact many secularists think otherwise. This is an interesting work, of course its written from a secuarlist perspective but its interesting nevertheless

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Muezzin
12-29-2010, 07:37 PM
General notice, not addressed to any particular individual: Please keep the discussion to the subject, as opposed to the members. Thank you to those who are doing so.
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I_notGenerous
12-30-2010, 05:52 PM
Its strange when I view the photo of them, they look alike, just observe their expressions..one with a big smile, one without...but its still the same expression...after all.
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I_notGenerous
12-30-2010, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Please keep the discussion to the subject, as opposed to the members. Thank you to those who are doing so.

I am referring to the photo of Mr George Bush and the Saudis Prince, I think they have similar expressions. You would be one of them, may be indirectly in this forum. Dont ranked yourself. If you think my postings are not within the topic, please state which one?
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Muezzin
12-30-2010, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by I_notGenerous
I am referring to the photo of Mr George Bush and the Saudis Prince, I think they have similar expressions. You would be one of them, may be indirectly in this forum. Dont ranked yourself. If you think my postings are not within the topic, please state which one?
It was a general notice, not addressed to any member in particular. My apologies for the confusion.
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Thucydides1987
12-30-2010, 06:55 PM
A very nice article, but a little idealistic, dont you think? It portrays the Muslim world of the past as being far more united than it ever was. After the first 50 years of the Arab conquests, the middle east was already divided, and was NOT one unified Muslim Empire spanning from India to Spain, but always divided in dozens of kingdoms that were warring with one another throughout their history.
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GuestFellow
12-30-2010, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thucydides1987
A very nice article, but a little idealistic, dont you think? It portrays the Muslim world of the past as being far more united than it ever was. After the first 50 years of the Arab conquests, the middle east was already divided, and was NOT one unified Muslim Empire spanning from India to Spain, but always divided in dozens of kingdoms that were warring with one another throughout their history.
I agree with you to some extent. Following the death of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), there was a leadership issue and this lead to divisions.

So these problems have always existed.
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Thucydides1987
12-30-2010, 07:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I agree with you to some extent. Following the death of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), there was a leadership issue and this lead to divisions. So these problems have always existed.
And to follow up on the article's proposition for a united Muslim Ummah state, like that of the EU, I think we have to remember that the EU was and is not a religious confederation; I have great doubts that Europe would have been able to unite itself into some Pan-European Christan Union, considering the antagonisms between Catholics and Protestants (and Orthodox Christians). In the same manner, when you look at the violence committed by the Sunnis and Shia toward one another, I have doubts that the region can become united under Islam, since there would not be a consensus as to which Islam ought to be the banner.

And if you want to look at this from a nationalist perspective, keep in mind that it took 2 world wars for European nations to finally put aside their prejudices for one another.
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Perseveranze
12-30-2010, 07:56 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Caliphate... The one thing the west and Israel don't want to see. :)
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Watcher888
01-01-2011, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


They're all over Iraq too? funny thing Copts aren't Iraqi.. in fact the word Copt means Egyptian (look it up) and generally do so before engaging in any topic..
Isn't it amazing that all these so-called internal wars didn't exist between folks who have lived side by side for millenniums before foreign invasion?

here is some reading flatulentCarl

Link removed!

Robert Fisk: Seen through a Syrian lens, 'unknown Americans' are provoking civil war in Iraq



if you're silly, your public is foolish and media is manipulative, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world is going to join your band wagon. The locals are actually quite unto your ilk.. After all Iraq is the birth place of civilization.
stay in school kid and pay attention in class, or did they cut down govt. spending from your local PS?
Let me see,
here is some reading flatulentCarl
!
Is this the muslim etiquette that is supposed to be displayed?

And Iraq was a hell hole before the yanks went in!

saddam hussein killed/murdered 1,000's of muslims!

His regime was evil and barbaric and the 'bathist's' were just power crazed and corrupt!
If you regard them as muslims, who set a good example of islam in action, then I pity you!

saddam had statues and pictures of himself everywhere, which must count as idolatry according to islam?

sn't it amazing that all these so-called internal wars didn't exist between folks who have lived side by side for millenniums before foreign invasion?
So sunnis and shi'ites and kurds weren't murdering each other before the yanks went in!
How much in denial are you?


if you're silly, your public is foolish and media is manipulative, it doesn't mean that the rest of the world is going to join your band wagon. The locals are actually quite unto your ilk.. After all Iraq is the birth place of civilization.
stay in school kid and pay attention in class, or did they cut down govt. spending from your local PS?
How about taking on the point/s made!
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Watcher888
01-01-2011, 02:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Caliphate... The one thing the west and Israel don't want to see. :)
Why, what would the west and israel have to fear from a muslim 'caliphate'?

After all, isn't islam the 'religion of peace'?

What secret agenda have islam and muslims got?
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GuestFellow
01-01-2011, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
What secret agenda have islam and muslims got?
Nothing. There are Muslims that want to establish the Caliphate. That is all.

All the information about Islam is available from books and lectures. It is only the west that claims Muslims have something to hide.
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Perseveranze
01-01-2011, 04:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
Why, what would the west and israel have to fear from a muslim 'caliphate'?

After all, isn't islam the 'religion of peace'?

What secret agenda have islam and muslims got?
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'd imagine with a Caliphate, the Zionists won't simply be able to walk into Palastine, bomb a few innocents and walk out with just a few "we condemn this act" speeches.

Trust me, the Caliphates job is to bring the unity of the Muslims back together again, thats why most Muslims want one.
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ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 12:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

I'd imagine with a Caliphate, the Zionists won't simply be able to walk into Palastine, bomb a few innocents and walk out with just a few "we condemn this act" speeches.

Trust me, the Caliphates job is to bring the unity of the Muslims back together again, thats why most Muslims want one.
So what would they do then, kill the jews and christians?
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Perseveranze
01-02-2011, 12:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
So what would they do then, kill the jews and christians?
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Please think for a second what I said. Your immediate conclusion derives from either your hate or your true misunderstanding.

Either way, not suprised you said that, even though I have no idea (from my post) how you came to the conclusion that Muslims want to kill jews/christians. What or who from have you been learning about Islam?
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R Khan
01-02-2011, 01:33 AM
Fox News me thinks.
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جوري
01-02-2011, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
!
Is this the muslim etiquette that is supposed to be displayed?
With the likes of you certainly!
And Iraq was a hell hole before the yanks went in!
And what would you call it now? paradisaical? further still did the Iraqis invite you in and ask for help for you to turn their hell into infinite hell?
saddam hussein killed/murdered 1,000's of muslims!
and you killed
Documented civilian
99,315 – 108,430 http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
it is funny as the Iraqi adage goes.. It is better to suffer from fever than to simply die a brutal death!
His regime was evil and barbaric and the 'bathist's' were just power crazed and corrupt!
your regime is an infinite times that corruption, greed, self-interest, lack of regard for human life, dignity or value. You and your govt. and all its supporters disgust me all around. The type of creeps that enjoy suffering of others, as you enjoy mocking children ..
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/05/s...ay-terrorists/

and stealing civilian body parts.. truly sick individuals unleashed upon the world!
If you regard them as muslims, who set a good example of islam in action, then I pity you!
irrelevant gibberish and pity from you is equal to plant fertilizer you can shove it!
saddam had statues and
pictures of himself everywhere, which must count as idolatry according to islam?
Again, it isn't your 'cross to bear' whether he was a despot or not, you and your type have no moral or ethical or legal reason to be there and do worst!

So sunnis and shi'ites and kurds weren't murdering each other before the yanks went in!
How much in denial are you?
I am not glued to fox with my pork rinds and beer jugs lapping up feces as Murdoch dispenses .. denial and frank ignorance and stupidity is only yours to keep!
How about taking on the point/s made!
You do that!

all the best
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ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 04:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Please think for a second what I said. Your immediate conclusion derives from either your hate or your true misunderstanding.

Either way, not suprised you said that, even though I have no idea (from my post) how you came to the conclusion that Muslims want to kill jews/christians. What or who from have you been learning about Islam?
Well what other alternatives are there? Because I see none. How else are you going to dissolve such a powerful nation especially a nuclear state?

In fact I think large scale force is completely out of question too unless the islamic empire under the "caliphate" is willing to endure a nuclear holocaust just to drive away Israel.
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
So what would they do then, kill the jews and christians?
No.

format_quote Originally Posted by R Khan
Fox News me thinks.
:hmm:

format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Well what other alternatives are there?
No idea. If all Muslim countries were united, I think America and Israel will behave more cautiously.

Plus a Caliphate is in conflict with the project for a new American century, so this is another reason why I think the west will not tolerate an Islamic state.
Reply

ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 09:26 AM
The "islamic state" isn't really that bothersome, its the instability.
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 10:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
The "islamic state" isn't really that bothersome, its the instability.
What ''instability?''
Reply

Watcher888
01-02-2011, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Nothing. There are Muslims that want to establish the Caliphate. That is all.

All the information about Islam is available from books and lectures. It is only the west that claims Muslims have something to hide.
The Victory.


  1. [48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

How will islam prevail over all rellgions?
Reply

Watcher888
01-02-2011, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
With the likes of you certainly!
And what would you call it now? paradisaical? further still did the Iraqis invite you in and ask for help for you to turn their hell into infinite hell?
and you killed
Documented civilian
99,315 – 108,430
it is funny as the Iraqi adage goes.. It is better to suffer from fever than to simply die a brutal death!
your regime is an infinite times that corruption, greed, self-interest, lack of regard for human life, dignity or value. You and your govt. and all its supporters disgust me all around. The type of creeps that enjoy suffering of others, as you enjoy mocking children ..


and stealing civilian body parts.. truly sick individuals unleashed upon the world!
irrelevant gibberish and pity from you is equal to plant fertilizer you can shove it!

Again, it isn't your 'cross to bear' whether he was a despot or not, you and your type have no moral or ethical or legal reason to be there and do worst!

I am not glued to fox with my pork rinds and beer jugs lapping up feces as Murdoch dispenses .. denial and frank ignorance and stupidity is only yours to keep!
You do that!

all the best
You don't even know me, to be able to make such wild claims!
I don not support any government of the world!
I do not support any army of the world!
I do not support any war of the world!
Nothing in this world or this life represents me!
And I do not watch fox!

Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!

I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!

If you regard them as muslims, who set a good example of islam in action, then I pity you!


irrelevant gibberish and pity from you is equal to plant fertilizer you can shove it!
saddam had statues and


pictures of himself everywhere, which must count as idolatry according to islam?



Again, it isn't your 'cross to bear' whether he was a despot or not, you and your type have no moral or ethical or legal reason to be there and do worst!

So sunnis and shi'ites and kurds weren't murdering each other before the yanks went in!
How much in denial are you?


I am not glued to fox with my pork rinds and beer jugs lapping up feces as Murdoch dispenses .. denial and frank ignorance and stupidity is only yours to keep!




How about taking on the point/s made!


Reply

Watcher888
01-02-2011, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What ''instability?''
Perhaps it's the different sects that murder each other?

Although some denialist's will probably blame everything on the Jews and the west!
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
T
How will islam prevail over all rellgions?
You tell me. I want to know how you interpreted that verse.

format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
Perhaps it's the different sects that murder each other?
There are two major sects, Sunni and Shia. The Shia's have established their own Islamic state in Iran, no Sunni was killed in the process.

The Sunni have yet to establish the Caliphate, and nor will we murder those of other sects.

Although some denialist's will probably blame everything on the Jews and the west!
Like how the West blames everything on Muslims for the instability in the Middle East?

Both sides are to be blamed, to some extent.

At least some Muslims acknowledged that some Muslims have done bad things. The western government officially have yet announced the mistakes they have made.
Reply

Watcher888
01-02-2011, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
You tell me. I want to know how you interpreted that verse.



There are two major sects, Sunni and Shia. The Shia's have established their own Islamic state in Iran, no Sunni was killed in the process.

The Sunni have yet to establish the Caliphate, and nor will we murder those of other sects.



Like how the West blames everything on Muslims for the instability in the Middle East?

Both sides are to be blamed, to some extent.

At least some Muslims acknowledged that some Muslims have done bad things. The western government officially have yet announced the mistakes they have made.
I have not interpreted the verse! Hence my question!
The Victory.


  1. [48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

But, I would like to see the muslim understanding of it please!

And as for sunni v shi'ite! And let's not forget the kurds!
I googled 'sunni vs shiite.'
I cannot post links.
Hardly brotherly love?:

What the Shi'ites say about Sunni Muslims
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam, what I am going to show you is the truth about what the Shi'ites think of us Sunni Muslims. The Shi'ites may tell you that we are the same and that they love us but beware because the Shi'ites also believe that it is okay and that they will get lots of reward for lying to Sunni Muslims about what they beleive in....Below is the truth that the Shi'ites tried to hide from us for so long, it exposes the pure hatred that they hold against the Sunni Muslims. (the Shi'ites practise Taqayyah which means to conceal or lie about their beleifs)
Mohammad bin Al-hassan Toosi reports on the authority of Ishhaq bin Ammar, that Abu Abdullah said "The wealth, the property and everything which belongs to a Sunni is actually yours (is legal for you)" (Tahzib-ul Ahkam, Vol. 2 Kitabul Makasib, p. 116, published in Iran) above in this Shi'ites book it states that all Shi'ites can steal from any Sunni Muslim and that there is nothing wrong with that.
Moallah Khonas reported that Abdullah said "snatch the possessions of a Sunni whereever you find it and hand over my share (ie. One fifth) to me" (Tahzib ul Ahkam). Brothers and Sisters in Islam these Shi'ites think that they can steal our possessions and who knows what else they would like to do to us Sunni Muslims!
The Shi'ites say this regarding Sunni Muslims "Although Allah, the Exalted, has not created a creature worse than a dog, yet a Nasbi (ie. A Sunni) is worse than even a dog." (Haqqul Yakeen (Persian) Vol 2, P. 516) Here the Shi'ites have said that Sunni Muslims are worse than Dogs!
The Shi'ites say that we will never go to Paradise! "It is contained in several sources of information that they, (the assumed Imams of Shias) said: 'Should every angel that Allah, the Exalted and Gracious, has created, every prophet that Allah has appointed, every truthfull martyr, (collectively) pray to Allah, the Exalted and Gracious, to release a Nasbi (a Sunni) from the Hell, Allah would never release him." (Haqqul-Yaqeen, (Arabic), Vol. 2 P. 192) This is what the Shi'ites realy think about us!!! They say that if anyone who is a Sunni Muslim will go to Hell!!! Don't these Shi'ites know what they are saying??
This is what the Shi'ites say will happen when their so-called Imams will return "When Qaem alaihissalam appears, he will start slaughtering Sunnis and their Ulema before slaughtering the infidels (kuffar)." (By the term "Quem" the Shi'ites mean Imam Mahdi, their twelveth Imam) So here the Shi'ites state that we are not Muslims, and that we are worse than the infidels (kuffar)
So dear Brothers and Sisters, how can the Shi'ites expect us to be friends with them when they Insult us and call us Kauffar behind our backs. So when a Shi'ite Insults a Sunni he is also Insulting all the Scholars and all of those pious people in Islam, can't these Shi'ites see what is wrong with their own beleifs???
May Allah Guide the Shi'ites to the True Islam, and May Allah show us what the Shi'ites really are, Ameen.
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 02:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I have not interpreted the verse! Hence my question!
Fine. I was just interested to see what you have to say about that verse.

Muslims desire to spread Islam however we cannot force anyone to convert. How Islam will prevail you ask? By Muslims setting a good Islam and spreading the knowledge of Islam.

The Victory.
Catch phrase?

But, I would like to see the muslim understanding of it please!
But, I'm no expert. I will probably take it out of context like I've done in the past.

And as for sunni v shi'ite! And let's not forget the kurds!
I googled 'sunni vs shiite.'
I cannot post links.
Hardly brotherly love?:
I never said it was brotherly love. There is a problem between Sunni and Shia Muslims, however, this problem is for them to resolve.

If the West intervene, they should get involved as mediators.
Reply

جوري
01-02-2011, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
You don't even know me, to be able to make such wild claims!
Your writing/garbage is telling of your person!
I don not support any government of the world!
Then why all this advocacy for the good the 'yanks' have brought to Iraq or elsewhere?

I do not support any army of the world!
I do not support any war of the world!
Nothing in this world or this life represents me!
And I do not watch fox!
You seem desperate to rectify all the crap you spew on various threads by extricating yourself from it.. we call that hypocrisy!
Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!
Muslims can do as they please in their sovereign nations. You need to busy yourself with your own affairs!
]I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!
What issues you twit?


have a good one!
Reply

ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
What ''instability?''
Pakistan for example, who the joint forces listed as a country that could be in for a "rapid and sudden collapse."

Could you imagine the ramifications of pakistan becoming a failed state? Portions of the state aren't even under the governments control. What if pakistans nuclear weapons fall into the wrong hands?
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
Pakistan for example, who the joint forces listed as a country that could be in for a "rapid and sudden collapse."
I think that is due to ethnic divisions and corruption.

Could you imagine the ramifications of pakistan becoming a failed state? Portions of the state aren't even under the governments control.
True.

What if pakistans nuclear weapons fall into the wrong hands?
Like who?

The "islamic state" isn't really that bothersome, its the instability.
It does not explain how an Islamic state would cause instability. It will unite Muslim countries under one banner, including those living in Pakistan. It should clear up any ethnic divisions.
Reply

ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
It does not explain how an Islamic state would cause instability. It will unite Muslim countries under one banner, including those living in Pakistan. It should clear up any ethnic divisions.
I don't remember saying, or anyone else for that matter, that an Islamic state would cause instability.

My point is that now, more than ever, is it possible for a small group of individuals to inflict catastrophic damage onto other nations and that in order to avoid such acts of terror a strong, stable government is required to actively prevent such a thing from taking place.
Reply

GuestFellow
01-02-2011, 10:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ChargerCarl
I don't remember saying, or anyone else for that matter, that an Islamic state would cause instability.
Sorry I got confused.
Reply

ChargerCarl
01-02-2011, 10:33 PM
No worries :)
Reply

Watcher888
01-04-2011, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Your writing/garbage is telling of your person!

Then why all this advocacy for the good the 'yanks' have brought to Iraq or elsewhere?


You seem desperate to rectify all the crap you spew on various threads by extricating yourself from it.. we call that hypocrisy!

Muslims can do as they please in their sovereign nations. You need to busy yourself with your own affairs!

What issues you twit?


have a good one!
You have completely misunderstood my meaning!
I do not, and would not advocate for the yanks!
I clearly implied, that even before the yanks went in, that Iraq was an unstable mess, with various factions vying for power!
This 'powder keg' was brutally kept from going off, by the 'bathist's' regime!

And I said of myself:

You don't even know me, to be able to make such wild claims!
I don not support any government of the world!
I do not support any army of the world!
I do not support any war of the world!
Nothing in this world or this life represents me!
And I do not watch fox!
Muslims can do as they please in their sovereign nations. You need to busy yourself with your own affairs!
So muslims can be 'despots' and mistreat other muslims can they?
I find that shocking and puzzling!

What issues you twit?
Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!

I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!

Reply

Thucydides1987
01-04-2011, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Trust me, the Caliphates job is to bring the unity of the Muslims back together again, thats why most Muslims want one.
But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.
Reply

جوري
01-04-2011, 05:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
You have completely misunderstood my meaning!
I do not, and would not advocate for the yanks!
I clearly implied, that even before the yanks went in, that Iraq was an unstable mess, with various factions vying for power!
This 'powder keg' was brutally kept from going off, by the 'bathist's' regime!

And I said of myself:
That is alot of concocted bull .. no one was vying for power, people there have lived harmoniously for ages side by side.. do you know anything at all about Iraq? Have you ever been? if you haven't then shut your ignorant bazoo or go share it on the christo fundie forum, idiots there would lap it up and hail you as their king.. what is curious though, since the ''yanks'' presence there not only have things been hellish, but there is also that mysterious disappearance of Iraqi scientists and intellectuals, which the yanks have made sure they take out along with the treasures of ancient Babylon:

Who’s killing Iraqi intellectuals?

By David Hoskins
Published Dec 3, 2005 9:29 PM
Iraqis opposed to the U.S. occupation believe there is a systematic campaign of targeted assassinations aimed at Iraqi intellectuals and that a well-organized enemy intent on keeping Iraq weak and susceptible to foreign occupation is carrying out the killings.
The Monitoring Net for Human Rights in Iraq recently reported Iraqi police figures demonstrating that well over 1,000 Iraqi academics and scientists have been shot to death since the beginning of the U.S.-led invasion. The U.S. State Depart ment has confirmed that hundreds of university professors have been killed.
The shooting of peaceful academics clearly differentiates these killings from those attributable to the Iraqi resistance’s effort to defend its homeland. The popular insurgency has primarily targeted U.S. and British forces along with Iraqi military and police personnel who cooperate with the occupation.
Whoever is responsible for the assassination of academics must also have access to sophisticated intelligence techniques that allow for the widespread targeting of a particular grouping of civilians.
The attacks on Iraqi intellectuals first began when U.S. forces purged at least 15,500 researchers, scientists, teachers and professors for alleged ties to the Baath Party. The dismissal, and subsequent emigration, of so many leading professionals contributed to a destabilized Iraq and provided the occupiers with an excuse for staying in the country.
An article in the [London] Times Higher Education Supplement (Sept. 15, 2004) points out that “there is a widespread feeling among the Iraqi academics that they are witnessing a deliberate attempt to destroy intellectual life in Iraq.”
The cold-blooded nature of the assassinations leaves many wondering exactly who is responsible for this ongoing campaign. The Iraqi resistance denies it is responsible, and those interested in liberating Iraq from the occupation have no motive to carry out such wide-scale killings.
Osama Abed Al-Majeed, the president of the Department for Research and Development at the Iraqi Ministry for Higher Education, has accused the Israeli secret service, Mossad, of perpetuating the violence against Iraqi scientists. A June 2005 report by the Palestine Information Center claims that Mossad, in cooperation with U.S. military forces, was responsible for the assassination of 530 Iraqi scientists and professors in the seven months prior to the report’s publication.
Mossad unquestionably has the motive and means to assassinate leading Iraqi intel lectuals. The Israeli intelligence agency contains a Special Operations Division called Metsada which is tasked with conducting assassinations, sabotage and paramilitary projects. Israel has a long history of interference in Iraq, going back to the 1981 bombing of a nuclear energy plant that stood 15 miles outside Baghdad that just before that attack had voluntarily undergone inspection by the Inter national Atomic Energy Agency.
Regardless of who is responsible for the killing of Iraqi scientists and academics, it is clear that the U.S. and Britain, as the leading occupying powers, have the responsibility for the precarious situation in which these intellectuals are forced to live.
Dr. Saad Jawad is a university professor who was known to speak out against certain Baathist policies. But he recently said, “To tell the truth, in the time of Saddam Hussein, we used to speak to our students freely.… But now, a lot of people are not willing to say these kinds of things because of fear.”
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Podcast: Looting of the Iraq Museum

Wednesday, April 21

Join Dr. Donny George Youkhanna, the former director general of the Iraq National Museum in Baghdad, as he shares his unique experience and perspectives on the current archeological and museum conditions in Iraq.
Dr. Youkhanna was instrumental in the recovery of thousands of Mesopotamian artworks and artifacts looted during the U.S. invasion in 2003. He was also President of the Iraq State Board of Antiquities and Heritage. In 2006, he was forced to leave Iraq and is now a visiting professor at the State University of New York, Stony Brook.
The Looting of the Iraq Museum: An Evening with Dr. Donny George Youkhanna was recorded at the American Museum of Natural History on Feburary 24, 2010.



this one is cute:



so I really wish you'd shut your ignorant bazoo

awrence Rothfield discusses the systematic and well-organised looting at the Iraq National Museum in 2003 on the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s Artworks Feature: “Looting Iraq's treasures”. Here Michael Gurr interviews Lawrence Rothfield author of The Rape of Mesopotamia on the looting of the Baghdad National Museum. The programme also contains some robust comment from Donald Rumsfeld. More than 15,000 artefacts vanished from the museum collections onto the black market, going to the dealers and buyers who are desperate to own some of the world's most ancient artefacts. And no-one, it seems, lifted a finger to stop it. Seven years on, while the Iraqis may well remember, around the world, the media has a short attention-span. This, combined with our own 'disaster fatigue', means that by now the sacking of the Baghdad Museum is pretty largely forgotten. Although the programme focussed on this, in fact looting on the archaeological sites scattered across the whole country in the aftermath of intervention aimed at destabilising the country and toppling its regime was arguably many times worse than what happened at the museum. It's estimated that perhaps 100,000 to 400,000 collectable artefacts have been ripped out of the ground, mostly between 2003 and 2006. To put that in context, the total holdings of the museum, which inventories everything excavated since 1924 until 2003 was only 170,000 items.

You can listen to the programme [here].
So muslims can be 'despots' and mistreat other muslims can they?
I find that shocking and puzzling!
what you find puzzling and shocking can fill compendiums as is usually the case with most under-educated people!

Face up to what is done in the name of islam, by those who call themselves muslims!
What is done you chawbacon is done in the name of world domination and, a few masterminds manipulating herd like yourself to believe that your 'freedom fries' and nakes w hores in 750cc prosthesis are something worth killing for!

I guess your rhetoric is aimed at deflecting the issues hey!
What issue you twit? I don't even need to make a marginal effort to showcase you for the fool that you are!
Reply

Watcher888
01-04-2011, 05:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Fine. I was just interested to see what you have to say about that verse.

Muslims desire to spread Islam however we cannot force anyone to convert. How Islam will prevail you ask? By Muslims setting a good Islam and spreading the knowledge of Islam.

That is a refreshing viewpoint. Good to hear!

But, it must be such an impediment, when so many unpeaceful things are done in the name of islam/muslims/allah?
It must put your cause back no end!
Catch phrase?

But, I'm no expert. I will probably take it out of context like I've done in the past.
It seems to suggest a finality about it, that would last for all time!


I never said it was brotherly love. There is a problem between Sunni and Shia Muslims, however, this problem is for them to resolve.
Yes, and what would the the Prophet say?

If the West intervene, they should get involved as mediators.
Surprised that you would allow the west to get involved in an islamic issue, particularly one within the ummah!
Reply

Watcher888
01-04-2011, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
That is alot of concocted bull .. no one was vying for power, people there have lived harmoniously for ages side by side.. do you know anything at all about Iraq? Have you ever been? if you haven't then shut your ignorant bazoo or go share it on the christo fundie forum, idiots there would lap it up and hail you as their king.. what is curious though, since the ''yanks'' presence there not only have things been hellish, but there is also that mysterious disappearance of Iraqi scientists and intellectuals, which the yanks have made sure they take out along with the treasures of ancient Babylon:



this one is cute:



so I really wish you'd shut your ignorant bazoo

what you find puzzling and shocking can fill compendiums as is usually the case with most under-educated people!

What is done you chawbacon is done in the name of world domination and, a few masterminds manipulating herd like yourself to believe that your 'freedom fries' and nakes w hores in 750cc prosthesis are something worth killing for!

What issue you twit? I don't even need to make a marginal effort to showcase you for the fool that you are!
In Iraq, the Ba'ath party remained a civilian group and lacked strong support within the military. The party had little impact, and the movement split into several factions after 1958 and again in 1966. The movement was reported to have lacked strong popular support, but through the construction of a strong party apparatus the party succeeded in gaining power.
The Ba'athists first came to power in the coup of February 1963, when Abd al-Salam 'Arif became president. Interference from the historic leadership around Aflaq and disputes between the moderates and extremists, culminating in an attempted coup by the latter in November 1963, served to discredit the party. After Arif’s takeover in November 1963, the moderate military Ba'athist officers initially retained some influence but were gradually eased out of power over the following months.
In July 1968, a bloodless coup led by General Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr, Saddam Hussein and Salah Omar Al-Ali brought the Ba'ath Party back to power. In 1974 the Iraqi Ba'athists formed the National Progressive Front to broaden support for the government's initiatives. Wranglings within the party continued, and the government periodically purged its dissident members. Emerging as a party strongman, Hussein eventually used his growing power to push al-Bakr aside in 1979 and ruled Iraq until 2003. Under Saddam's tenure Iraq experienced its most dramatic and successful period of economic growth, with its citizens enjoying standards of health care, housing, instruction and salaries/stipends well comparable to those of European countries. Several major infrastructures were laid down to help with the country's growth, although many had to be scaled down or abandoned as the costs of the Iran-Iraq War became heavier and heavier.

Author Fred Halliday writes about 1958-1979: Arab Nationalism confronting Imperial Iran, Ba'thist ideology, where, under the influence of al-Husri, Iran was presented as the age-old enemy of the Arabs. Al-Husri's impact on the Iraqi education system was made during the period of the monarchy, but it was the Ba'thists, trained in that period and destined to take power later, who brought his ideas to their full, official and racist, culmination. For the Ba'thists their pan-Arab ideology was laced with anti-Persian racism, it rested on the pursuit of anti-Persian themes, over the decade and a half after coming to power, Baghdad organised the expulsion of Iraqis of Persian origin, beginning with 40,000 Fayli Kurds, but totalling up to 200,000 or more, by the early years of the war itself. Such racist policies were reinforced by ideology: in 1981, a year after the start of the Iran-Iraq war, Dar al-Hurriya, the government publishing house, issued "Three Whom God Should Not Have Created: Persians, Jews, and Flies". by the author, Khairallah Talfah (Tulfah), the foster-father and father-in-law of Saddam Hussein. Halliday says that it was the Ba'thists too who, claiming to be the defenders of 'Arabism' on the eastern frontiers, brought to the fore the chauvinist myth of Persian migrants and communities in the Gulf.
Reply

جوري
01-04-2011, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
In Iraq, the Ba'ath party remained a civilian group and lacked strong support within the military.

what is the point of regurgitating the same crap over you? I have already established and repeatedly that whatever problems Iraq is having should be solved by Iraqis it is certainly not a carte Blanche for you and yours to come killing, maiming and stealing.. to make the analogy so simple that even you can understand.. If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?

Now, Please take a hike I have zero tolerance for simpletons!
Reply

GuestFellow
01-04-2011, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
Yes, and what would the the Prophet say?
That Muslims should unite and not divide. Stick to the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Surprised that you would allow the west to get involved in an islamic issue, particularly one within the ummah!
Nothing wrong with a country playing a role as a mediator, giving advice to both sides and helping them to find some common ground. Of course, when a conflict arises, other countries national interests are affected, so they are allowed to get involved, as long as they do it diplomatically. So by involvement, I mean diplomacy.

That is a refreshing viewpoint. Good to hear!

But, it must be such an impediment, when so many unpeaceful things are done in the name of islam/muslims/allah?

It must put your cause back no end!
Well yes some Muslims have done bad things. It does not mean it represents Islam. When a problem arises, some people resort to violence and try to justify it by whatever means.
Reply

Watcher888
01-05-2011, 12:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


what is the point of regurgitating the same crap over you? I have already established and repeatedly that whatever problems Iraq is having should be solved by Iraqis it is certainly not a carte Blanche for you and yours to come killing, maiming and stealing.. to make the analogy so simple that even you can understand.. If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?

Now, Please take a hike I have zero tolerance for simpletons!
I see you can't admit you have got me wrong hey!
I do not support the yanks in anything!
And my restating and clarifying my point is no 'regurgitation'!
Iraq is a mess now, and will still be if and when the yanks clear off!
And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess!
Which you have now sort of conceded!

I have no tolerance for untruth!
saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims!
Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!


Reply

M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I see you can't admit you have got me wrong hey!
I do not support the yanks in anything!
And my restating and clarifying my point is no 'regurgitation'!
Iraq is a mess now, and will still be if and when the yanks clear off!
And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess!
Which you have now sort of conceded!

I have no tolerance for untruth!
saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims!
Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!

when you look at the state of pakistan and its people, a muslim nation founded as such, then you know the state of the muslim ummah across the world.
not painting everyone with the same brush although if i did its not the brush i would like to use.
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aadil77
01-05-2011, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Thucydides1987
But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.
what do you mean by 'hardly existed'? were you there at time? enlighten us please
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Ummu Sufyaan
01-05-2011, 01:36 PM
But that 'unity' of which you speak hardly existed in history -- it's nothing more than a romanticised version of Islamic history.
whats the matter? been stung by the jealousy bug?
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 02:10 PM
I used to work for a friend in the US. His business partner used to work for one of the security services (installing covert surveillance equipment I think it was.)

When the US was rattling it's sabre at Afghanistan he told me that Saddam was threatening to demand Euros for his oil. He told me that most countries in the region treat US Dollars as a second currency simply because it was the currency in which oil is bought and sold. If oil instead was bought and sold in Euros it would result in these countries dropping the USD and adopting the EUR has their secondary currencies - effectively smashing the illusion of the perceived value of the USD (which is no longer tie to gold reserves.)

He told me that the US *would* invade Iraq, and rather than do this to get cheap oil they would do it in order to ensure they could buy it in USD. He told me that once the US were finished with Afghanistan they would go into Iraq and Iran. I couldn't see any chance of the US going to war with both of these countries, especially Iran, but it seems he was right.

Personally I am looking forward to oil running out :-)
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جوري
01-05-2011, 02:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
When the US was rattling it's sabre at Afghanistan he told me that Saddam was threatening to demand Euros for his oi

Your friend is correct!
once the oil runs out, there will be another reason to be there.. I have to big a headache now to go into a laundry list of it!
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جوري
01-05-2011, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
And my point still is, that Iraq under saddam was a mess! Which you have now sort of conceded! I have no tolerance for untruth! saddam murdered 1,000's of muslims! Surely that is against the Prophet's teachings!

and as I quoted before and the Iraqis themselves stated. Better to suffer of fever than die of it.. You are incredibly thick and I have to maddening a migraine today to spoon feed you common sense!
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GuestFellow
01-05-2011, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Personally I am looking forward to oil running out :-)
I've heard oil companies are investing in alternative energy. Not sure if it is true...

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

once the oil runs out, there will be another reason to be there.. I have to big a headache now to go into a laundry list of it!
As long as Israel continues to receive aid and the necon dominate US foreign policy, the US will always get involved in the Middle East.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I've heard oil companies are investing in alternative energy. Not sure if it is true...
It is, they have massive budgets. Any "oil" company that does not diverge to simply become an "energy company" will die out with the oil. They know this, and that is why they invest in alternate energy sources such as hydrogen fuel cells etc.


format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
As long as Israel continues to receive aid and the necon dominate US foreign policy, the US will always get involved in the Middle East.
Most countries will have some interest in the other countries in the world. I don't expect the US will have as many shall we say "active campaigns" in middle-eastern countries because once the natural resources are gone they will be of less interest. Although I expect the US will try to keep military stations in as many countries as they possibly can because they are strategically useful in their active campaigns elsewhere.
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M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
It is, they have massive budgets. Any "oil" company that does not diverge to simply become an "energy company" will die out with the oil. They know this, and that is why they invest in alternate energy sources such as hydrogen fuel cells etc.




Most countries will have some interest in the other countries in the world. I don't expect the US will have as many shall we say "active campaigns" in middle-eastern countries because once the natural resources are gone they will be of less interest. Although I expect the US will try to keep military stations in as many countries as they possibly can because they are strategically useful in their active campaigns elsewhere.
the damage has been done, greed for oil or stability was just the carrot on the stick.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the damage has been done, greed for oil or stability was just the carrot on the stick.
I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.
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M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.
it is all to do with religion,
we could wonder round in circles all day but this is a religious board and i had hoped the people on it would be understanding in what we are here to do.

it is not a case of the religion of the people involved in conflicts, ie the conspiracy against muslim nations etc etc.
it is a case of understanding how those people got into that situation and understanding the fear of god and building firm bases for your beliefs to stand upon...so you do not have to stand where they stood.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
it is all to do with religion,
So the oil is a distraction from their true goal which is to destroy Islam, is that what you are claiming?
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M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
So the oil is a distraction from their true goal which is to destroy Islam, is that what you are claiming?
you miss my point entirely.
the truth of the oil is subjective.

i believe in an all mighty god,
the creator of the heavens and the earth and all things in between.
what can be done to me that was not decreed, what can be done to you that was not decreed?
we have only our own actions that amount to anything, we have only our religion to point the way.
what happens after that is not our will, we have already tried to impose our will.

when a day of wholesale reconing comes, we dont cack our pants... i tried my best anyway.
god is the ultimate judge, by what means we are dealt with and by whom is subjective.

i broke my concept of good and evil that day.

if i could write in proper paragraphs that might help, probably not really lol... bullcrap is bullcrap.
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GuestFellow
01-05-2011, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
I didn't say it would then be irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that this is all to do with natural resources and wealth rather than (as many conspiracy hypothesisers claim) about religion.
Religion has something to do with it, and you don't need to follow one to acknowledge some individuals are motivated by religion.

Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.

AIPAC one of the most powerful lobbies in America, has a group called Christian United for Israel (I think that is what they are called), and pressure America to support Israel without question.

So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
some individuals are motivated by religion.
Oh yes, I don't doubt that at all.


format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.
Indeed, and some of these people are in a position of power. Just like the guy who had been appointed head of the board for environmental issues in the US who says global warming won't be a problem because God promised in the bible....scary.

And of course Islam has it's own proponents who believe things such as "The last day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews" etc. We only get about 80 years of life on this planet anyway, compared to the apparent eternal afterlife this isn't really very long to wait. I just have no idea why everyone is so keen to bring about the end of the world.

I think this is one of the rare circumstances where Pascal's wager actually works.

1: Be nice to each other and live as long as possible
No afterlife : You got as much from your life as you could.
Afterlife exists: Comparatively you waiting next to no additional time to get there.

2: Bring about the end of the world
Afterlife exists: You might get a quick path to heaven (or might be sent to hell for killing lots of people.)
No afterlife : Everyone loses

Wow, *I* used Pascal's wager :-D

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
I suspect we may be in agreement :-)
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M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Religion has something to do with it, and you don't need to follow one to acknowledge some individuals are motivated by religion.

Some Jews in Israel are waiting for their messiah and the some Christians in the US support Israel without question because they believe Prophet Jesus (P.B.U.H) will become back or something along those lines.

AIPAC one of the most powerful lobbies in America, has a group called Christian United for Israel (I think that is what they are called), and pressure America to support Israel without question.

So, religion has played a role, but not a significant role.
i guess its what you do in the name of your god that has to be accounted for (individually)

if they do bring about the second coming of jesus AS, i dont think he will be too happy with them....emm actually
he might have been an easy going fellow peace and blessings be upon him, but his god will not be happy with many on that day.
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GuestFellow
01-05-2011, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
And of course Islam has it's own proponents who believe things such as "The last day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews" etc. We only get about 80 years of life on this planet anyway, compared to the apparent eternal afterlife this isn't really very long to wait. I just have no idea why everyone is so keen to bring about the end of the world.
No one is keen on ''end of the world.'' Some people do become hysterical and tried to predict the end of the world many times when they incorrectly analyse current affairs.

As for the Jews, Muslims believe they will accept (and others) a man known as the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), so they will be a battle. From what a scholar said, the Dajjal shall come once Muslims have stopped talking about it completely, he will be forgotten. So it will be when Muslims are most vulnerable.

I suspect we may be in agreement :-)
Yes, I agree that currently, religion, has so far played a minor role.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i guess its what you do in the name of your god that has to be accounted for (individually)

if they do bring about the second coming of jesus AS, i dont think he will be too happy with them....emm actually
he might have been an easy going fellow peace and blessings be upon him, but his god will not be happy with many on that day.
How anyone could be happy with those who brought about the death and suffering of billions of people I do not know. I can imagine Jesus will be very annoyed with himself though that he said they could still go to heaven as long as they believe he died and came back to life ;-)
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M.I.A.
01-05-2011, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No one is keen on ''end of the world.'' Some people do become hysterical and tried to predict the end of the world many times when they incorrectly analyse current affairs.

As for the Jews, Muslims believe they will accept (and others) a man known as the Dajjal (Anti-Christ), so they will be a battle. From what a scholar said, the Dajjal shall come once Muslims have stopped talking about it completely, he will be forgotten. So it will be when Muslims are most vulnerable.



Yes, I agree that currently, religion, has so far played a minor role.
yep, a superman no less
can fly.
can ressurect the dead.
brings with him heaven and hell.
will claim to be god.

doubt anybody can miss such a man.

anyway a united ummah will be established by then although who and how many i dont know.
the hellbound, hope we dont miss them.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the hellbound, hope we dont miss them.
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.
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joedawun
01-05-2011, 05:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.
That doesn't seem particularly rational behavior, and certainly not from people expecting to be divinely rewarded.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by joedawun
That doesn't seem particularly rational behavior, and certainly not from people expecting to be divinely rewarded.
So you don't believe in hell fire then?
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joedawun
01-05-2011, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
So you don't believe in hell fire then?
Just the kind that people create for themselves and others while on Earth.
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by joedawun
Just the kind that people create for themselves and others while on Earth.
A christian who doesn't believe in eternal hell. How interesting. Maybe you could create a thread in the comparative religion forum explaining how you decided that was the case and send me the url? I don't want to hijack this thread :-)
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GuestFellow
01-05-2011, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.
Well its like now, people are suffering all over the world and here were are, safe, relaxed and some are having a great time.

For those who end up in hell, they have no one to blame but themselves. :/
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TheRationalizer
01-05-2011, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
Well its like now, people are suffering all over the world and here were are, safe, relaxed and some are having a great time.
Sure, but I send more than 5% of my monthly incomes to charity in order to build water wells, pay for education, pay for medicinal supplies, etc in order to try to help those people improve their lives. I accept I cannot help them all, but I can help some of them.

Now if there was some entity deliberately forcing them to endure pain and suffering (like fire) that would be terrible, I certainly wouldn't want a loving relationship with any conscious entity that would put someone through such an ordeal.


format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
For those who end up in hell, they have no one to blame but themselves. :/
Only a crime committed for an infinite amount of time warrants a punishment that lasts for an infinite amount of time. Anything short of that is a terrible injustice. Even if you are utterly evil for 50 years of your life, that is nothing compared to the infinity of the punishment.

A quote I like is
"Infinity is a very long time, especially towards the end".

I felt compelled to reply to your statement but I really don't want to hijack this thread :-S If you want to discuss it further please start a new thread and let me know so I can comment on it.
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M.I.A.
01-06-2011, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
How anyone could be happy with those who brought about the death and suffering of billions of people I do not know. I can imagine Jesus will be very annoyed with himself though that he said they could still go to heaven as long as they believe he died and came back to life ;-)
you shouldnt worry about about those countless people who have brought suffering to countless people.
when you have to face god on the day of judgement you will only have to account for yourself and the actions you sent on people.
according to many stories i have heard we will be in such a position that we will not even be able to even think of others on that day.

as for what jesus peace and blessings be upon him said to the people, i do not even know... i know he thought of others often thats for sure, maybe i missed the point.

as for hell and heaven, nothings for sure.. but after death time becomes irrelavent, so maybe people will be let back in after a time.. how longs a piece of string.

as for who goes where, thats for god to decide and to paraphrase the quran.

on that day you will be told the truth of all that you did.

i dont even know what iv been doing all my life! thats something that puts the fear of god in me.

could go on to another line and remind you of the forgive them for they know not what they do line.. but i dont even know if its true and where its written, just something that a person hears right?
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TheRationalizer
01-06-2011, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
as for what jesus peace and blessings be upon him said to the people, i do not even know... i know he thought of others often thats for sure, maybe i missed the point.
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how many (but not all) christians believe that it is belief in Jesus alone that gets you into heaven and not your deeds - that Jesus is a kind of "Get out of hell for free" pass.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
i dont even know what iv been doing all my life! thats something that puts the fear of god in me.
I don't think there is a single crime that anyone could commit in their finite life time which deserves an infinite punishment, it is infinitely unjust. I am sure that if there is a god and it is a just one then it will be more fair than I am, and I wouldn't punish anyone for eternity no matter what they had done. I certainly wouldn't expect an eternal punishment for something so insignificant that you can't even remember doing it :-)
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AabiruSabeel
01-06-2011, 09:16 AM
This topic of eternal punishment has been discussed many times here. Please use the search feature to find out what has been said before. Its no use repeating the same over and over again. I am busy right now, otherwise I would have linked you to it.

If you need any 'new' clarification, then you are welcome.
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M.I.A.
01-06-2011, 10:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how many (but not all) christians believe that it is belief in Jesus alone that gets you into heaven and not your deeds - that Jesus is a kind of "Get out of hell for free" pass.



I don't think there is a single crime that anyone could commit in their finite life time which deserves an infinite punishment, it is infinitely unjust. I am sure that if there is a god and it is a just one then it will be more fair than I am, and I wouldn't punish anyone for eternity no matter what they had done. I certainly wouldn't expect an eternal punishment for something so insignificant that you can't even remember doing it :-)
there are people in this world that are so unjust that eternal hell might be warrented, but that is only by my definition of what unjust or evil is and it is not the same thing as knowing what gods definition is.

...if i forget to think of anything at a level other than face value then evil is those that cause mischief in the land, those that oppress people and the causers of tumult(which i was unsure of so heres some web definitions)

1.
violent and noisy commotion or disturbance of a crowd or mob; uproar: The tumult reached its height during the premier's speech.
2.
a general outbreak, riot, uprising, or other disorder: The tumult moved toward the embassy.
3.
highly distressing agitation of mind or feeling; turbulent mental or emotional disturbance: His placid facade failed to conceal the tumult of his mind.
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TheRationalizer
01-06-2011, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AabiruSabeel
This topic of eternal punishment has been discussed many times here. Please use the search feature to find out what has been said before. Its no use repeating the same over and over again. I am busy right now, otherwise I would have linked you to it.

If you need any 'new' clarification, then you are welcome.
Sorry, you are right. I inadvertently allowed myself to diverge and consequently diverted the thread from it's original subject.
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Perseveranze
01-06-2011, 11:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
It was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how many (but not all) christians believe that it is belief in Jesus alone that gets you into heaven and not your deeds - that Jesus is a kind of "Get out of hell for free" pass.



I don't think there is a single crime that anyone could commit in their finite life time which deserves an infinite punishment, it is infinitely unjust. I am sure that if there is a god and it is a just one then it will be more fair than I am, and I wouldn't punish anyone for eternity no matter what they had done. I certainly wouldn't expect an eternal punishment for something so insignificant that you can't even remember doing it :-)
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Just want to note that there's people out there that constantly Insult God and his prophets(pbut) their whole life, I personally think they do deserve eternal punishment, but the final judge is your Creator.
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Watcher888
01-06-2011, 05:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


what is the point of regurgitating the same crap over you? I have already established and repeatedly that whatever problems Iraq is having should be solved by Iraqis it is certainly not a carte Blanche for you and yours to come killing, maiming and stealing.. to make the analogy so simple that even you can understand.. If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?

Now, Please take a hike I have zero tolerance for simpletons!
I have not given any support for the yanks!
My point about Iraq being in a mess before the yanks went in, was to refute your claim, that nothing was wrong before the yanks went!
When I mentioned the yanks going in, it was to make the point that even after that, and if and when they finally leave.
Iraq will still be a mess!
Now do you understand?

If I had a fight with my cousin and it got heated, what right have you a complete outsider to come in, not only killing my cousin, but other family members, posing some of them nude, torturing some, mocking the children of my village and then looting the goods and claiming that you were only trying to help-- are you this imbecilic?
These things, are not supported by me!
I do not support any war/s, and the things that happen during them!

Iraq under Saddam Hussein had high levels of torture and mass murder.
Secret police, torture, murders, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical weapons, and the destruction of wetlands (more specifically, the destruction of the food sources of rival groups) were some of the methods Saddam Hussein used to maintain control. The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown, as are the reports of human rights violations. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture.


Care to comment about this?



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Watcher888
01-06-2011, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


and as I quoted before and the Iraqis themselves stated. Better to suffer of fever than die of it.. You are incredibly thick and I have to maddening a migraine today to spoon feed you common sense!
What are you saying?
Iraq under saddam the despotic mass murderer of your muslim brothers and sisters, is nothing more than a fever!
Doesn't paint a lovely picture does it?

Iraq under Saddam Hussein had high levels of torture and mass murder.
Secret police, torture, murders, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical weapons, and the destruction of wetlands (more specifically, the destruction of the food sources of rival groups) were some of the methods Saddam Hussein used to maintain control.[original research?] The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown, as are the reports of human rights violations. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture.
Human rights organizations have documented government-approved executions, acts of torture, and rape for decades since Saddam Hussein came to power in 1979 until his fall in 2003.

In 2002, a resolution sponsored by the European Union was adopted by the Commission for Human Rights, which stated that there had been no improvement in the human rights crisis in Iraq. The statement condemned President Saddam Hussein's government for its "systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and international humanitarian law". The resolution demanded that Iraq immediately put an end to its "summary and arbitrary executions... the use of rape as a political tool and all enforced and involuntary disappearances". Full political participation at the national level was restricted only to members of the Arab Ba'ath Party, which constituted only 8% of the population.
Iraqi citizens were not allowed to assemble legally unless it was to express support for the government. The Iraqi government controlled the establishment of political parties, regulated their internal affairs and monitored their activities. Police checkpoints on Iraq's roads and highways prevented ordinary citizens from traveling abroad without government permission and expensive exit visas. Before traveling, an Iraqi citizen had to post collateral. Iraqi women could not travel outside of the country without the escort of a male relative. The activities of citizens living inside Iraq who received money from relatives abroad were closely monitored. Halabja poison gas attack:The Halabja poison gas attack occurred in the period 15–19 March 1988 during the Iran–Iraq War when chemical weapons were used by the Iraqi government forces and thousands of civilians in the Iraqi Kurdish town of Halabja were killed. Al-Anfal Campaign:
In 1988, the Hussein regime began a campaign of extermination against the Kurdish people living in Northern Iraq. This is known as the Anfal campaign. The campaign was mostly directed at Shiite kurds (Faili Kurds) who sided with Iranians during the Iraq-Iran War. The attacks resulted in the death of at least 50,000 (some reports estimate as many as 100,000 people), many of them women and children. A team of Human Rights Watch investigators determined, after analyzing eighteen tons of captured Iraqi documents, testing soil samples and carrying out interviews with more than 350 witnesses, that the attacks on the Kurdish people were characterized by gross violations of human rights, including mass executions and disappearances of many tens of thousands of noncombatants, widespread use of chemical weapons including Sarin, mustard gas and nerve agents that killed thousands, the arbitrary imprisoning of tens of thousands of women, children, and elderly people for months in conditions of extreme deprivation, forced displacement of hundreds of thousands of villagers after the demolition of their homes, and the wholesale destruction of nearly two thousand villages along with their schools, mosques, farms, and power stations.
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جوري
01-06-2011, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I have not given any support for the yanks!
My point about Iraq being in a mess before the yanks went in, was to refute your claim, that nothing was wrong before the yanks went!
When I mentioned the yanks going in, it was to make the point that even after that, and if and when they finally leave.
Iraq will still be a mess!
Now do you understand?

These things, are not supported by me!
I do not support any war/s, and the things that happen during them!

Iraq under Saddam Hussein had high levels of torture and mass murder.
Secret police, torture, murders, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical weapons, and the destruction of wetlands (more specifically, the destruction of the food sources of rival groups) were some of the methods Saddam Hussein used to maintain control. The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown, as are the reports of human rights violations. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture.


Care to comment about this?


format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
What are you saying? Iraq under saddam the despotic mass murderer of your muslim brothers and sisters, is nothing more than a fever! Doesn't paint a lovely picture does it?
Let me quote an American convert to Islam as he sums up his country best:

Muslims are set up as the scape goat to blame for atrocities perpetrated to justify unjust policies and to distract the US population from what is really going on in America. America is being run by the corporate elite with only their self interests of gaining more power and wealth as objectives with no concern for the general welfare and being of the 'less fortunate' people of the world and of the US.


me: your otherwise unsourced drivel is as relevant as you are! Indeed an Iraqi problem requires an Iraqi solution or neighboring intervention, not an invasion by looting, warmongering perverts with a disgusting agenda and the ability to bull **** their way into a very calculated end.
Now kindly take a hike, you give me the creeps!
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جوري
01-06-2011, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TheRationalizer
Not sure how people in heaven could possibly spend eternity enjoying paradise whilst people burn in fire for eternity for finite actions.

It is really easy, I imagine along the same way you're able to go on living and enjoying life not knowing that folks like this:







exist in the world.. and for precisely those reasons:

to quote the Noble Quran:
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ أَنفِقُوا مِمَّا رَزَقَكُمْ اللَّهُ قَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لِلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَنُطْعِمُ مَن لَّوْ يَشَاء اللَّهُ أَطْعَمَهُ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلَّا فِي ضَلَالٍ مُّبِينٍ {47}
[Pickthal 36:47] And when it is said unto them: Spend of that wherewith Allah hath provided you, those who disbelieve say unto those who believe: Shall we feed those whom Allah, if He willed, would feed? Ye are in naught else than error manifest.


spend your life not concerned about the well fare of your fellow man if not down right torturing them, spend eternity no one caring for you, amongst other things for life and death are about truth and justice!



all the best
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GuestFellow
01-06-2011, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
What are you saying?
Iraq under saddam the despotic mass murderer of your muslim brothers and sisters, is nothing more than a fever! Doesn't paint a lovely picture does it?
The US supports dictators that torture, kill and silence their own citizens, like Egypt. When the US invaded Iraq, it made things much worse. The US never really helped the Iraqi citizens...

format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ

me: your otherwise unsourced drivel is as relevant as you are! Indeed an Iraqi problem requires an Iraqi solution or neighboring intervention, not an invasion by looting, warmongering perverts with a disgusting agenda and the ability to bull **** their way into a very calculated end. Now kindly take a hike, you give me the creeps!
:sl:

Exactly. When you want to help people, you don't kill them in the process! :/
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Watcher888
01-09-2011, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
The US supports dictators that torture, kill and silence their own citizens, like Egypt. When the US invaded Iraq, it made things much worse. The US never really helped the Iraqi citizens...



:sl:

Exactly. When you want to help people, you don't kill them in the process! :/
I do not support the yanks!

And Iraq was only kept down by a murderous regime under saddam!
That killed 1,000's of your brothers and sisters!
No better than the yanks!
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جوري
01-09-2011, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I do not support the yanks! And Iraq was only kept down by a murderous regime under saddam! That killed 1,000's of your brothers and sisters! No better than the yanks!

your logic or lack thereof is mildly amusing. Again, there are tons of murderous drug lords in Colombia does that give the right to foreign forces to come in and augment that a million folds? You're ridiculous!
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GuestFellow
01-09-2011, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I do not support the yanks!

And Iraq was only kept down by a murderous regime under saddam!
That killed 1,000's of your brothers and sisters!
No better than the yanks!
I never said you supported America. There are many of murderous regime, like in Uzbekistan and Egypt, and America has no trouble supporting them. America uses human rights to gain public support in order to achieve its political aspirations.

Life in Iraq has gone much worse, things were stable under Saddam, even though he was a tyrant and tortured civilians. Not saying I support Saddam.
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Watcher888
01-09-2011, 08:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


your logic or lack thereof is mildly amusing. Again, there are tons of murderous drug lords in Colombia does that give the right to foreign forces to come in and augment that a million folds? You're ridiculous!
I didn't bring up the subject of the yanks in Iraq!
In that I was promoting their involvement there as beneficial!

This thread is about the 'Unity of the muslim nation'!
And I have just pointed out that Iraq before and during and after(if the yanks clear off) is not united and will not be (based on past recent history), in the way that a muslim nation should be according to islam!
And that is all!

But, anyway thanks for showing gracious good manners!
But, then I am just a kuffar!




Reply

جوري
01-09-2011, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I didn't bring up the subject of the yanks in Iraq!
In that I was promoting their involvement there as beneficial!
Didn't bring it up but are simply perpetuating equivocations?
This thread is about the 'Unity of the muslim nation'!
Indeed and can't be of concern to you, except for your hope to keep them divided!

And I have just pointed out that Iraq before and during and after(if the yanks clear off) is not united and will not be (based on past recent history), in the way that a muslim nation should be according to islam!
And that is all!
You don't know much about the before and clearly can't predict the after, your input isn't needed nor warranted!
But, anyway thanks for showing gracious good manners!
I can't believe that I have been indeed gracious enough to dignify you with a response!

But, then I am just a kuffar!
You're a KAFFIR! kuffar makes it plural, thanks for highlighting one of the numerous reasons your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, suggestions and backtalk are irrelevant and have very little to do with reality!


all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
01-09-2011, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
In that I was promoting their involvement there as beneficial!
No, it made things worse. It was one of the reasons why July 2005 bombings occurred. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed and many civilians had now refugees. Now, there is violence between Sunni and Shia.

What was exactly beneficial about US involvement?

This thread is about the 'Unity of the muslim nation'!
And I have just pointed out that Iraq before and during and after(if the yanks clear off) is not united and will not be (based on past recent history), in the way that a muslim nation should be according to islam!
And that is all!
How do you know what is going to happen afterwards?
Reply

aamirsaab
01-09-2011, 09:52 PM
Kind reminder to all: stay on topic.
Reply

Watcher888
01-10-2011, 07:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ


your logic or lack thereof is mildly amusing. Again, there are tons of murderous drug lords in Colombia does that give the right to foreign forces to come in and augment that a million folds? You're ridiculous!
I do not support the yanks!
Don't you understand that?

You seem to have a fixed view of non muslims, that you can't see past!
Not impressed by your 'Dawah'!



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جوري
01-10-2011, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I do not support the yanks! Don't you understand that? You seem to have a fixed view of non muslims, that you can't see past! Not impressed by your 'Dawah'!
Why do you keep writing here? dishing out the same crap? You're nothing but a hypocrite, you preach one thing and then deny you're in support of it-- further where have I offered you da3wah? I do not cast pearls before swine!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
01-10-2011, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I do not support the yanks!
Don't you understand that?

You seem to have a fixed view of non muslims, that you can't see past!
Not impressed by your 'Dawah'!
No, there's no Dawah...do you know what it means?
Reply

Watcher888
01-15-2011, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No, it made things worse. It was one of the reasons why July 2005 bombings occurred.
So now after many muslims have claimed that these bombings were not done by muslims!
But, were false flag attacks!
You say that these 'suicide bombings' were islamic and in retaliation for Iraq!
Thousands of innocent civilians were killed and many civilians had now refugees.
Yes, I agree, but unfortunaely that it is the way the nations of the world wage war!
Hitler had civillains bombed prior to the planned invasion of Britain!
Now, there is violence between Sunni and Shia.
And that must be the muslim/ummah's responsiblity!
After all it took a despot like saddam to keep Iraq under some sort of control!
And he had your muslim kurd brothers and sisters gassed and went to war with Iran!


What was exactly beneficial about US involvement?
I haven't said that it was beneficial!
My two sentences go together to make my point:

I didn't bring up the subject of the yanks in Iraq!
In that I was promoting their involvement there as beneficial!
How do you know what is going to happen afterwards?
I don't know for certain, it was a view based as I said, on Iraq's history!

And I have just pointed out that Iraq before and during and after(if the yanks clear off) is not united and will not be (based on past recent history), in the way that a muslim nation should be according to islam!
And that is all!
Reply

Watcher888
01-15-2011, 03:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow
No, there's no Dawah...do you know what it means?
Da‘wah or Dawah (Arabic: دعوة‎) usually denotes the preaching of Islam. Da‘wah literally means "issuing a summons" or "making an invitation", being the active participle of a verb meaning variously "to summon" or "to invite" (whose triconsonantal root is د ع ى). A Muslim who practices da‘wah, either as a religious worker or in a volunteer community effort, is called a dā‘ī, plural du‘āt. A dā‘ī is thus a person who invites people to understand Islam through a dialogical process, and may be categorized in some cases as the Islamic equivalent of a missionary, as one who invites people to the faith, to the prayer, or to Islamic life

I was saying that vales rudeness and smears and insults are not good publicity for islam!
Are they!
Reply

جوري
01-15-2011, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I was saying that vales rudeness and smears and insults are not good publicity for islam! Are they!

Everything that is written about you is merited by your posts.. be that as it may, no one here is offering you da3wa and that is exactly what guestfellow is asking and implying. Has anyone here invited you to Islam? If so please show me where!.. On has to be of decent character to be a receiver of da3wah and you don't come across as such!

all the best
Reply

GuestFellow
01-15-2011, 04:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Watcher888
I don't know for certain, it was a view based as I said, on Iraq's history!



So now after many muslims have claimed that these bombings were not done by muslims!
But, were false flag attacks!
I'm not claiming those were false flag attacks.

You say that these 'suicide bombings' were islamic and in retaliation for Iraq!
I never said these bombings were Islamic. I'm stating that nothing good came out of Iraq war, one of them is July 2005 bombings.

Yes, I agree, but unfortunaely that it is the way the nations of the world wage war!
Hitler had civillains bombed prior to the planned invasion of Britain!
Two wrongs don't make a right. Not that I am claiming you support the civilian death.

Now, there is violence between Sunni and Shia.
And that must be the muslim/ummah's responsiblity!
After all it took a despot like saddam to keep Iraq under some sort of control!
And he had your muslim kurd brothers and sisters gassed and went to war with Iran!
I agree. It is a Muslim responsibility.

I didn't bring up the subject of the yanks in Iraq!
In that I was promoting their involvement there as beneficial!
How do you know what is going to happen afterwards?
I don't know for certain, it was a view based as I said, on Iraq's history!
Okay.
Reply

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