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Perseveranze
12-16-2010, 10:31 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum(Peace be with everyone),

They(through ignorance and hatred and lies);

- Call him a pedophile
- Call him a murderer
- Call him a pagan/jew/christian hater

Why do they not acknowledge this then;

- First to give women clear rights
- First to give animals/slaves rights(with absolute encouragment as a good deed to free a slave, not only free it but provide for him/her so that they can take care of themselves)
- This list goes on, but the main point I want to make...

Why do they mention the likes of Malcolm X and Martin Luthor King, but never ever mention Muhammad(pbuh); as the first ever man to ban colorism.

This is 1400 Years ago from a Divine book that is regarded as Law to it's mass of followers;

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full Knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things)." - [Quran 49: 13]

This is 1400 years ago, from the mouth of a man who people again; followed just like it is the law;

"O people! Your God is one and your forefather (Adam) is one. An Arab is not better than a non-Arab and a non-Arab is not better than an Arab, and a white person is not better than a black person and a black person is not better than a white person, except in piety. "

Muhammad(pbuh) was the first ever man in history to tell the world that there is no difference between any son/daughter of Adam(pbuh), not even their skin colour, the only difference is how pious they are towards their Lord.

So why not even a single mention of this phenominon in any text book or anything? I mean, it's not fairy tales or anything, these words surely came from somewhere and the people that followed it to the letter surely acted upon some powerful influence not to discriminate each other based on color.

Some people really forget to appreciate don't they... Or they just don't know. 1400 years ago, racism in the masses was non-existent in the Arabi societies and as Islam spread wider, racism was further eradicated, however the rest of the world continued in their sinful acts of discrimination, not until the very last century was colorism finally acknowledged as a wrongful act and banned. Sorry, but a certain man(pbuh) was waaaay ahead of you, atleast give him SOME credit.

http://www.articlesbase.com/politics...sm-109116.html

"The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped around this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only." - Thomas Carlyle

"If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astonishing results are the three criteria of a human genius, who could dare compare any great man in history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws, and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples, dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls." -Alphonse de LaMartaine

"Today after a lapse of fourteen centuries, the life and teachings of MUHAMMAD (pbuh) have survived without the slightest loss, alteration or interpolation. They offer the same undying hope for treating mankind's many ills, which they did when he was alive. This is not a claim of Muhammad's (pbuh) followers but also the inescapable conclusion forced upon by a critical and unbiased history" - K. S. RAMAKRISHNA RAO
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ourdialogue02
12-17-2010, 10:00 AM
its not ignorance am very sure of, its pure hatred as Allah said see the jews know the truth but they hate us because we follow the truth the christians are not any better, its pure hatred thats all...
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Rafeeq
12-17-2010, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by ourdialogue02
its not ignorance am very sure of, its pure hatred as Allah said see the jews know the truth but they hate us because we follow the truth the christians are not any better, its pure hatred thats all...
Agree . . . . . .
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أحمد
12-17-2010, 05:12 PM
:sl:

A number of reasons; the top two are hatred and jealousy.

:wa:
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ICYUNVMe
12-17-2010, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by ourdialogue02
its not ignorance am very sure of, its pure hatred as Allah said see the jews know the truth but they hate us because we follow the truth the christians are not any better, its pure hatred thats all...
Do you think its rational to believe that Christians and Jews "know" the the truth in Islam but ignore it, and then hate you for following it? That makes little sense.
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Perseveranze
12-17-2010, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
Do you think its rational to believe that Christians and Jews "know" the the truth in Islam but ignore it, and then hate you for following it? That makes little sense.
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),

The only issue I have is that Christianity teaches that Muhammad(pbuh) was Evil/The Devil and the Quran is from the Devil. Like, I'll be sitting here arguing with a Christian giving irrifutable evidence of the Quran Miracles/And how the Prophet(pbuh) couldn't have been an imposter, and they revert to the "well he's the devil" arguement lol... Like, ok thanks for accepting that there is something special there, but the whole "devil" arguement really doesn't fit with the teachings of the Prophet(pbuh)/Quran. And then I get "some of it is the word of God but the Devil is just using that to grab your attention and make you think it is from God, the Devil is very smart".

I just closed my browser then. And no, this isn't the view off one Christian, MANY of them believe this and I have no idea where they get it from. One of them said "My Priest told me and he knows more about Islam then you do".

Fair enough if you want to believe someone Christians deem the word off as Important, but have you atleast double checked what they or any biased sources say with what the actual non-Biased historians, the greatest thinkers of the modern century have to say about Muhammad(pbuh)? And the answer which they'll never admit directly is No. I mean, fine if you want to Say Muhammad(pbuh) was not a Prophet, but why lie and say he was a bad person, he was a murderer, a pedophile etc. And worst, why not even mention what he did, the laws he laid down, the rights he gave, the love he showed to both fellow mankind and animals, how he made the biggest and most influencial positive revolution in the whole of history in the shortest period of time etc.?

In a sense I can understand why the negative propoganda is spread like that as far as Christianity goes, atm the idea is that Muhammad(pbuh) was evil - Christians are happy with this idea, the moment the idea(truth) comes that Muhammad(pbuh) was quite the opposite (and you don't have to believe he was a prophet) but the moment the idea comes that he was of one of the best morale good Characters in history, your likely to start to ponder and to read the Quran and worst case scenario revert.
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ChargerCarl
12-17-2010, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),

The only issue I have is that Christianity teaches that Muhammad(pbuh) was Evil/The Devil and the Quran is from the Devil. Like
No they don't, not at all. The Catholic church views both Islam and Judaism as fellow Abrahamic faiths.

There may be some Christians who view Islam in contempt because of the many terror attacks carried out in the name of Allah, but that by no means is a majority opinion...at least here in the states...
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ICYUNVMe
12-17-2010, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
The only issue I have is that Christianity teaches that Muhammad(pbuh) was Evil/The Devil and the Quran is from the Devil. Like, I'll be sitting here arguing with a Christian giving irrifutable evidence of the Quran Miracles/And how the Prophet(pbuh) couldn't have been an imposter, and they revert to the "well he's the devil" arguement lol... Like, ok thanks for accepting that there is something special there, but the whole "devil" arguement really doesn't fit with the teachings of the Prophet(pbuh)/Quran. And then I get "some of it is the word of God but the Devil is just using that to grab your attention and make you think it is from God, the Devil is very smart".
It seems that many Christians use the following line of thinking: If Jesus brought the word of God to the masses, and the bible warns against false prophets, then anyone who goes against that, and any prophet who appears afterwards is a liar and a false prophet and the Devil uses his trickery to remove people from the "correct" path of following the teachings of Jesus.

Should the positive aspects of Muhammad be taught? Sure, I guess it can't hurt. But the goal of any major religion is to maintain your flock and bring others into the fold. You won't be doing your own religion any favors by talking about the good aspects of another guy who is part of another religion.

It is important to remember that these people are human (at least IMO), and humans have both good and bad in them. From a historical perspective, I'm sure that everyone, including the prophets exhibited these traits.

But as to your original post, Muhammad is not a factor in Christianity or Judaism. Talking about him is just not that important. But outside of religious practice, the things that Muhammad did that were positive should certainly be mentioned.
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I_notGenerous
12-17-2010, 07:56 PM
Salam to all,

I think all of us are ignorance and arrogance in some ways.
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Perseveranze
12-18-2010, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by ICYUNVMe
It seems that many Christians use the following line of thinking: If Jesus brought the word of God to the masses, and the bible warns against false prophets, then anyone who goes against that, and any prophet who appears afterwards is a liar and a false prophet and the Devil uses his trickery to remove people from the "correct" path of following the teachings of Jesus.

Should the positive aspects of Muhammad be taught? Sure, I guess it can't hurt. But the goal of any major religion is to maintain your flock and bring others into the fold. You won't be doing your own religion any favors by talking about the good aspects of another guy who is part of another religion.

It is important to remember that these people are human (at least IMO), and humans have both good and bad in them. From a historical perspective, I'm sure that everyone, including the prophets exhibited these traits.

But as to your original post, Muhammad is not a factor in Christianity or Judaism. Talking about him is just not that important. But outside of religious practice, the things that Muhammad did that were positive should certainly be mentioned.
Asalaamu Alaikum (peace be with you),

I don't mind if they don't want to speak of any positives of him(pbuh), but in my opinion they really shouldn't preach lies of him either. Like, it isn't the Muslims that are disapproving some of these lies, but Historians, Famous Peace makers, great intellectual thinkers - basically non-Biased non-Muslims who have really studied Muhammad(pbuh) and his life and have come to clear conclusions that he was a Good person, not a bad/evil person. I honestly thought that Christians believe Muhammad(pbuh) was the very oppositive of Good, rather he was bad; And most certainly you can't really mix good/bad together, it's really one or the other. And when you have all these high academic's accepting that he was Good, why do Christians ignore that and go for the complete opposite?

Here is a quote from Dr. Maurice Bucaille -

The following is an example taken from the Universalis Encyclopedia (Encyclopedia
Universalis) vol. 6. Under the heading Gospels (Evangiles) the author alludes to the
differences between the latter and the Qur'an: “The evangelists (. . .) do not (. . .), as in the
Qur'an, claim to transmit an autobiography that God miraculously dictated to the Prophet . .
“In fact, the Qur'an has nothing to do with an autobiography: it is a preaching; a
consultation of even the worst translation would have made that clear to the author. The
statement we have quoted is as far from reality as if one were to define a Gospel as an
account of an evangelist's life. The person responsible for this untruth about the Qur'an is a
professor at the Jesuit Faculty of Theology, Lyon ! The fact that people utter such untruths
helps to give a false impression of. the Qur'an and Islam.
There is hope today however because religions are no longer as inward-looking as they
were and many of them are seeking for mutual understanding. One must indeed be
impressed by a knowledge of the fact that an attempt is being made on the highest level of
the hierarchy by Roman Catholics to establish contact with Muslims; they are trying to fight
incomprehension and are doing their utmost to change the inaccurate views on Islam that
are so widely held.
In the Introduction to this work, I mentioned the great change that has taken place in
the last few years and I quoted a document produced by the Office for Non-Christian
Affairs at the Vatican under the title Orientations for a Dialogue between Christians and Muslims
(Orientations pour un dialogue entre chrétiens et musulmans). It is a very important
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document in that it shows the new position adopted towards Islam. As we read in the third
edition of this study (1970), this new position calls for 'a revision of our attitude towards it
and a critical examination of our prejudices' . . .'We should first set about progressively
changing the way our Christian brothers see it. This is the most important of all.' . . .We
must clear away the 'out-dated image inherited from the past, or distorted by prejudice and
slander' . . . , and 'recognize the past injustice towards the Muslims for which the West, with
its Christian education, is to blame.'[46] The Vatican document is nearly 150 pages long. It
therefore expands on the refutation of classic views held by Christians on Islam and sets out
the reality.
Under the title Emancipating ourselves from our worst prejudices (Nous libérer de nos
préjugés les plus notables) the authors address the following suggestions to Christians: “Here
also, we must surrender to a deep purification of our attitude. In particular, what is meant by
this are certain 'set judgements' that are all too often and too lightly made about Islam. It is
essential not to cultivate in the secret of our hearts views such as these, too easily or
arbitrarily arrived at, and which the sincere Muslim finds confusing.”
One extremely important view of this kind is the attitude which leads people to
repeatedly use the term Allah' to mean the God of the Muslims, as if the Muslims believed in
a God who was different from the God of the Christians. Al lâh means 'the Divinity' in
Arabic: it is a single God, implying that a correct transcription can only render the exact
meaning of the word with the help of the expression 'God'. For the Muslim, al lâh is none
other than the God of Moses and Jesus.
The document produced by the Office for Non-Christian Affairs at the Vatican stresses
this fundamental point in the following terms:
“It would seem pointless to maintain that Allâh is not really God, as do certain people in
the West! The conciliar documents have put the above assertion in its proper place. There is
no better way of illustrating Islamic faith in God than by quoting the following extracts from
Lumen Gentium [47]. 'The Muslims profess the faith of Abraham and worship with us the
sole merciful God, who is the future judge of men on the Day of Reckoning . . .'”
One can therefore understand the Muslims' protest at the all too frequent custom in
European languages of saying 'Allâh' instead of 'God' . . .Cultivated Muslims have praised D.
Masson's French transition of the Qur'an for having 'at last' written 'Dieu' [48] instead of
'Allah'.
The Vatican document points out the following: “Allâh is the only word that Arabicspeaking
Christians have for God.” Muslims and Christians worship a single God. The
Vatican document then undertakes a critical examination of the other false judgements made
on Islam.
'Islamic fatalism' is a widely-spread prejudice; the document examines this and quoting
the Qur'an for support, it puts in opposition to this the notion of the responsibility man has,
who is to be judged by his actions. It shows that the concept of an Islamic legalism is false;
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on the contrary, it opposes the sincerity of faith to this by quoting two phrases in the Qur'an
that are highly misunderstood in the West:
“There is no compulsion in religion” (Sura 2, verse 256) “(God) has not laid upon you in
religion any hardship” (Sura 22, verse 78)
The document opposes the widely-spread notion of 'Islam, religion of fear' to 'Islam,
religion of love'-love of one's neighbor based on faith in God. It refutes the falsely spread
notion that Muslim morality hardly exists and the other notion, shared by so many Jews and
Christians, of Islamic fanaticism. It makes the following comment on this: “In fact, Islam
was hardly any more fanatical during its history than the sacred bastions of Christianity
whenever the Christian faith took on, as it were, a political value.” At this point, the authors
quote expressions from the Qur'an that show how, in the West, the expression 'Holy
War'[49] has been mistranslated; “in Arabic it is Al jihâd fî sabîl Allâh, the effort on God's
road”, “the effort to spread Islam and defend it against its aggressors.” The Vatican
document continues as follows: “The jihâd is not at all the Biblical kherem; it does not lead
to extermination, but to the spreading of God's and man's rights to new lands.”- “The past
violence of the jihâd generally followed the rules of war; at the time of the Crusades
moreover, it was not always the Muslims that perpetrated the worst slaughters.”
Finally, the document deals with the prejudice according to which “Islam is a hidebound
religion which keeps its followers in a kind of superannuated Middle Ages, making them
unfit to adapt to the technical conquests of the modern age.” It compares analogous
situations observed in Christian countries and states the following: “we find, (. ..) in the
traditional expansion of Muslim thought, a principle of possible evolution in civilian
society.”
I am certain that this defense of Islam by the Vatican will surprise many believers today,
be they Muslims, Jews or Christians. It is a demonstration of sincerity and open-mindedness
that is singularly in contrast with the attitudes inherited from the past. The number of people
in the West who are aware of the new attitudes adopted by the highest authorities in the
Catholic Church is however very small.
Once one is aware of this fact, it comes as less of a surprise to learn of the actions that
sealed this reconciliation: firstly, there was the official visit made by the President of the
Office for Non-Christian Affairs at the Vatican to King Faisal of Saudi Arabia; then the
official reception given by Pope Paul VI to the Grand Ulema of Saudi Arabia in the course
of 1974. Henceforth, one understands more clearly the spiritual significance of the fact that
His Grace Bishop Elchinger received the Grand Ulema at his cathedral in Strasbourg and
invited them during their visit to pray in the choir. This they did before the altar, turned
towards Makka.
Thus the representatives of the Muslim and Christian worlds at their highest level, who
share a faith in the same God and a mutual respect for their differences of opinion, have
agreed to open a dialogue. This being so, it is surely quite natural for other aspects of each
respective Revelation to be confronted.
I'll re-quote -

"The number of people in the West who are aware of the new attitudes adopted by the highest authorities in the Catholic Church is however very small."

Despite this being a few years ago, I still feel the great misconceptions Christianity have about Islam are still not cleared, I agree with the above statement that very few people are aware of the new attitudes Christians should have in regards to their understanding of Islam.

Here are recently random, unprovoked opinions of a few Christians on my Utube chan -

"islam is a lie of satan muhammad was not of God but he was a servant of the pagan moon god allah who is satan you are ignorant to follow this lie may God open your eyes and heart to the truth and may you have the courage to accept it."

.... 1. Satan, 2. Pagan moon god, 3. Do they not teach what "Allah" means?

"Your god is a pagan rock! He is not the God of Abraham Issac or Jacob. And I do not worship the same God you worship."

....Again with the same pagan rock belief and the denial of the fact that we do worship the same God, we just have different perceptions of God.

"Allah is not my god, he is not the god of the Bible, you can keep your Allah, I will keep the Messiah, who was and who is and who is to come."

... Same God issue, this is what alot of Christians believe?

"I see Satan has brainwashed you into believing that your Pagan moon god is actually the God of Abraham Issac and Jacob. Islam is the work of the Devil and Allah is Satan Muhammad was a false prophet. And Allah is not my god. "

lol this same person later goes "I to get my information regarding Islam from the Qu'ran and the Hidith's and Sunnah of Muhammad" What?

"allah (not visible) proves light is not allah and Jahoveh Jesus the christ is not allah again. but light is visible. part of muslim prophet pagan father name was allah proves allah a pagan."

eh.. I'll just stop there. The worst thing is, only 3 Christians ever said to me that they studied the Prophet(pbuh) and believe he is a Good man. Only problem...

1st/2nd one - They said they were looking into reverting to Islam.
3rd one - Said that "to be on the safe side, they are not going to follow any religion and just pray and believe in one God"...

So yeah, maybe there are Christians out there that will say "I don't believe Muhammad(pbuh) is a prophet, but at the same time I do believe he was a Good man", but only a few.

I can understand atleast why it is like this, you want to try and tell people Islam isn't true and you try and do that by bringing in the misconceptions about the core.

Anyways this is just going off-topic, my complaint was why the west doesn't acknowledge Muhammad(pbuh) as the first man to do certain important things in history, such as denounce Racism. At the very least, atleast the Britannic encyclopedia have something positive -

"....a mass of detail in the early sources show that he was an honest and upright man who had gained the respect and loyalty of others who were like-wise honest and upright men." - The Encyclopædia Britannica


It's an improvement atleast.
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Grace Seeker
12-20-2010, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
I honestly thought that Christians believe Muhammad(pbuh) was the very oppositive of Good, rather he was bad; And most certainly you can't really mix good/bad together, it's really one or the other. And when you have all these high academic's accepting that he was Good, why do Christians ignore that and go for the complete opposite?
Please tell me whether by "why do Christians...." do you mean that as referring to all Christians, most Christians, some Christians, a few Christians, or what portion of Christianity do you perceive as believing that "Muhammad (pbuh) is the very opposite of good"?


Originally Posted by Perseveranze
They(through ignorance and hatred and lies); - Call him a pedophile - Call him a murderer - Call him a pagan/jew/christian hater
Who is the "they" you are referring to?
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I_notGenerous
12-20-2010, 11:37 AM
Quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze View Post
"I honestly thought that Christians believe Muhammad(pbuh) was the very oppositive of Good, rather he was bad; And most certainly you can't really mix good/bad together, it's really one or the other. And when you have all these high academic's accepting that he was Good, why do Christians ignore that and go for the complete opposite?" unquote

I am the ignorant one, ya, what type of Christians that judge others? Ya, I am the ignorant one, what type of Muslims that judge others? Please elaborate more.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille - may be a born Christian but is that Dr is a Muslim, now?
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Perseveranze
12-21-2010, 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Please tell me whether by "why do Christians...." do you mean that as referring to all Christians, most Christians, some Christians, a few Christians, or what portion of Christianity do you perceive as believing that "Muhammad (pbuh) is the very opposite of good"?


Who is the "they" you are referring to?
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),

Not sure if you read my post fully, but I gave you direct examples, out of all the Christians I've spoken to (and there are many) only 3 have thought of Muhammad(pbuh) as a positive character, 2 of those were converting to Islam and 1 of those was going to become an agnostic.

The lies that we (Christians) have heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only.
[Thomas Carlyle]

Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad. It is easy to see how this has come about. For centuries Islam was the great enemy of Christendom, for Christendom was in direct contact with no other organized states comparable in power to the Muslims. [Montgomery Watt]

I think it's most Christians that have a very negative view of Muhammad(pbuh) and it echoes throughout today's society through falsehood and propoganda. The vatican's message which I posted also reflect these misconceptions alot of Christians have, which havn't really be addressed.

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" - Pope Benedict XVI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regensburg_lecture

Although you may try and argue back saying how some Imam's do the same, truth is that's a very minority, an Imam is like a Priest. The Muslims however don't have 1 leader like Christians do, which is the Pope, so his words are very influencing in the beliefs Christians would have over things.

And by "they" I mean the ignorant one's, whoever they may be.
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Woodrow
12-21-2010, 02:26 AM
I blame it on ignorance. But ignorance leads to fear and fear is the first step of hatred.


People do hate what they fear and do fear what they are ignorant of.

Very little is taught about Muhammad(PBUH) in the Western world. Sadly the little that is taught is often in error. Many of us who are Reverts had virtually no knowledge of Muhammad(PBUH) until after we accepted Islam. One part of the problem is there are no accurate biographies that were not originally written in Arabic, and Arabic does not translate wellinto English. so the only way a person can verify any parts of the Life of Muhammad(PBUH) is to learn Arabic and/or become Muslim.
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Ramadhan
12-21-2010, 02:36 AM
The propaganda against Islam and prophet Muhammad SAW started to get in full crank during the crusades when the european christians needed to motivate and seek support from europeans to finance and send troops to palestine.
Come to think of it, the history is being repeated today, when zionists and americans cranking out propaganda to tarnish the image of islam and muslims to send troops to Afghanistan and Iraq and to support Israel.

I was watching history channel (and yes, we also get history channel in Indonesia) last night about science and islam.
One of the main points why we dont hear much about the amazing contributions to science by muslims and Islamic world in the past was because when the europeans started to colonize the world, and came to invade muslim lands they needed to create propaganda that Islam contribution to science was too litle too distant past, in order to diminish and subjugate the morals of the muslims.
Only now muslims are rediscovering the past great history of muslim contributions to science and technology.
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siam
12-21-2010, 03:04 AM
"Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad. It is easy to see how this has come about. For centuries Islam was the great enemy of Christendom, for Christendom was in direct contact with no other organized states comparable in power to the Muslims. "[Montgomery Watt]

I think these would be Western/Roman Christians. Many of the Eastern Christians such as the Copts, the Christians of Abysinnia, and other smaller sects persecuted by the Roman Christians were friendly to Muslims and got along well....in fact, many of them helped to translate the Greek knowledge into Arabic.

Because there were Christian sects that did not believe Prophet Jesus(pbuh) was God, we Muslims were thought of as heretic Christians by some in the Roman Church---that Islam was one of the many Christian heresies.....or some such......

Today Western Christians claim the Greek heritage as theirs---when actually they had disowned it during the dark ages of Christianity. Today the Pope claims that it is Christianity that is a religion based on reason and logic---Islam is not!!!.

It is very hard to believe the various Christian delusions---but each to his own.....
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Ramadhan
12-21-2010, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Very little is taught about Muhammad(PBUH) in the Western world. Sadly the little that is taught is often in error. Many of us who are Reverts had virtually no knowledge of Muhammad(PBUH) until after we accepted Islam. One part of the problem is there are no accurate biographies that were not originally written in Arabic, and Arabic does not translate wellinto English. so the only way a person can verify any parts of the Life of Muhammad(PBUH) is to learn Arabic and/or become Muslim.
Also, because the life of prophet Muhammad SAW is so full of events and details, full of nuances, and covered every subjects and issues of human life, it is not possible to find his biography in a small book that is still able to convey the full wisdoms of his life. Among the best Ive read is by Muhammad Said Ramadhan Al-Buti.

For islamophobes and orientalists, they have to pick one or two events of his life which seem to look so extreme (against current western standards), cutting and editing it, making it out of context and presenting it as "evidence" to support their claims about prophet Muhammad SAW as mentioned in the OP.
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I_notGenerous
12-21-2010, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar
One of the main points why we dont hear much about the amazing contributions to science by muslims and Islamic world in the past was because when the europeans started to colonize the world, and came to invade muslim lands they needed to create propaganda that Islam contribution to science was too litle too distant past, in order to diminish and subjugate the morals of the muslims.
Only now muslims are rediscovering the past great history of muslim contributions to science and technology.
well, is very sad, why Muslims are so loose can be easily invaded, so what when wrong? Is there a Sovereignty, now..in all aspects?
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Grace Seeker
12-22-2010, 04:42 PM
I want to get back to the original question and some of the OPs follow-up comments:


Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum(Peace be with everyone),

They(through ignorance and hatred and lies);

- Call him a pedophile
- Call him a murderer
- Call him a pagan/jew/christian hater

Why do they not acknowledge this then;

- First to give women clear rights
- First to give animals/slaves rights(with absolute encouragment as a good deed to free a slave, not only free it but provide for him/her so that they can take care of themselves)
- This list goes on, but the main point I want to make...

Why do they mention the likes of Malcolm X and Martin Luthor King, but never ever mention Muhammad(pbuh); as the first ever man to ban colorism.

Originally Posted by Perseveranze
... my complaint was why the west doesn't acknowledge Muhammad(pbuh) as the first man to do certain important things in history, such as denounce Racism.

Well, one reason would be because he wasn't the first to denounce racism. Not saying that he didn't denounce racism at a time when it was still rampant. But he simply wasn't the first.

For instance the following was written hundreds of years before Muhammad (pbuh) was even born:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." --the Apostle Paul in a letter to the church at Galatia (Galatians 3:28).

And before that we have these comments: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." --the Apostle Peter reflecting on what he learned from a vision with respect to how to receive and make room for non-Jews in his life (Acts 10:34).

Now it may be that those who followed them in the practice of Christian teachings didn't adopt the same views which these folks had with regard to not looking at a person's race, but these views were expressed and taught long before Muhammad (pbuh). Further, those folks like Martin Luther King who were able to effect a real change with regard to the treatment of people of minority races by the majority referred back to these (and other) Christian teachings and not the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) when they presented their message.


Add to that the reality that even if one eliminates racism that cultural myopia still exists and the result is that Muhammad(pbuh), whose influence on western culture is more veiled than that of Jesus (pbuh), is not going to be as recognized for what he did. People may even be aware of Muhammad's (pbuh) influence in other places -- though your accusation of ignorance and that they aren't aware is probably accurate -- to the same degree that they are of other people's influences in their own culture, but they will still view their culture as of primary importance in their own reporting. As a result Muhammad's (pbuh) contributions will be discounted while those others who have provided greater influence to their own life will have their stature enhanced.

Now, might I add, I actually see the same effect in your own posts. Muhammad (pbuh) is a great influence in your life. And that of course enhances your view of him. But when you report that you've only known three Christians to ever have something good to say about Muhammad (pbuh), it seems to me that your sampling pool must be incredibly small.

I'm not saying that you won't find the ignorant, the fear mongers, and other sorts of evil thoughts projected toward Muhammad (pbuh) from Christians. You no doubt have and will continue to find them. But this is by far from universal. I'll bet up until 10-20 years ago, 80% of Christians in the west didn't even bother to think about Islam one way or another. Now, I can't prove it, and have no idea how one could research it. But as a Christian who lives in the west and remembers taking classes on world religions in the 1970s, I think I can safely say that I didn't hear the fear mongering then that you report hearing now. (And that was on the heels of some of the worst warfare between Israel and its neighbors.) Back then many of us in the USA were more concerned with Black Muslims than with Islam. And we recognized the teachings of Black Muslims like Elijah Muhammed and the Nation of Islam even as they were steeped in certain aspects of the Islamic faith to still be more about race than religion, so even then they really didn't inform our view of Islam. Thus it is only as a result of more current historical events that very many people that I know (and my sampling pool is admittedly limited as well) have even cared to think about Islam. Unfortunately most of what has brought it to their attention has been negative, and learning of it in that context has not been the best environment for Islam to be well received. But what I think you should find interesting, is that even in that environment, Islam has been largely understood to be positive impact on its adherents.

Now, with regard to some of the characterizations of Muhammad (pbuh) that you don't appreciate. I don't think they will ever go away. He did things, things that will be judged and evaluated by people both who have adopted the same faith as he and those who will forever remain outside of it. Those different points of view will quite naturally have an impact on what they see. And some will see that Muhammad (pbuh) took a child as his wife and regardless of the culture of his day, he will be judged by the culture of the reviewer and be dubbed (at least by some) a pedophile. You may call that ignorance. If so, it isn't ignorance of events, but a decision to ignore the role of Muhammad's (pbuh) culture and to judge him by the reviewer's culture instead.

And coming back to what seems to be your evaluation that Christians (and you seem to write as if you mean that to be universally true of Christians) as heaping lies about Muhammad (pbuh). You've turned to the internet to substantiate that view and quoted people who have indeed heaped lies about Muhammad. This proves only that some Christians do so, not most. Look at how many Christian authors you've turned to that talk about Muhammad (pbuh) or Islam being maligned. That in itself is evidence that there is another voice that does not promote such the negative view and actively seeks to counter it. Since you are going to the internet, how about this very site? What is the view of Muhammad (pbuh) that you find among Christians here? While none of us believe he was the perfect instrument of Allah (swt) (for if we did we would accept all of his teachings and be Muslims ourselves, not Christians), we don't deny the importance of his contribution to converting the Arab world from paganism to belief in the one true God we both worship.

I think you are accepting the views of too few Christians as representing the whole. And pardon my correction, but you even show some of your own ignorance with regard to the Christian faith by which you judge us:

Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you),

I think it's most Christians that have a very negative view of Muhammad(pbuh) and it echoes throughout today's society through falsehood and propoganda. The vatican's message which I posted also reflect these misconceptions alot of Christians have, which havn't really be addressed.

[/B]Although you may try and argue back saying how some Imam's do the same, truth is that's a very minority, an Imam is like a Priest. The Muslims however don't have 1 leader like Christians do, which is the Pope, so his words are very influencing in the beliefs Christians would have over things.
The Pope is NOT the 1 leader for all Christians like you report here. He is the leader for the largest group of Christians, but there are many, many more for whom he is no more than a person of interest, and not a leader at all. Indeed, as a pastor I have a bishop who is over me, but it is not the Pope nor any Catholic bishop. I am not Catholic, I am United Methodist. Yes, his words have influence, but they don't carry authority outside of the Catholic Church. And some Imam's do indeed do the same -- that is they don't have authority, but they do have influence -- and not just within their own masjid, but beyond through the media of our day able to influence people all around he world.

Now a quick search will lead me to all sorts of interesting statements that I am told are "supposed" to represent Islam. Here is just one sample:

To our Mujahidin brothers greetings and prayers,

It is mentioned in the Qur’an, and according to al-Sa’diy that if people don’t fight for each other, land will be lost. The infidels will prevent the Muslims from worshipping God, spreading his religion, and they will establish their apostate idols everywhere. Because God is kind, he has allowed Muslims to go to Jihad to fight for the sake of their happiness. He has made this available to them for reasons they do know and reasons they don’t know.

Al-Tabaraniy in Al-Kabir stated “ The Prophet said that a group of people will be chosen on Earth to gain victory through God, and with the use of their weapon. They will continue to fight for God till judgment day. The groups’ greatest example is the Prophet of God .“

The loser is the person that doesn’t throw an arrow into this great massacre. The Mujahidin are the front for the Islamic Nation and are fighting to maintain its faith, and drive away harm from it. They are more worthy of this nation and have more fear for its well-being. They are doing everything they can through themselves and their money for the sake of Islam and the Muslims.

Imam Ahmad Ibn-Hanbal, may God rest his soul, said “Meeting the enemy is nothing, but fighting them is the best action. The ones that fight the enemy are the ones defending Islam and their women. They are comforted while the enemy is afraid.”

(source: Advice for the People of Jihad)
.
Should I accept this view as being representative of Islam? Most Muslims I know would refute these points as not being central to Islam. And yet it is out there. On what shall I garner my view of what is and isn't true Islam?


The internet provides us access to what we seek. On it I can seek for all in Islam that I might find violating my conscience and what I believe. I can seek for those biases that I have against Islam or Muhammad (pbuh) and have them confirmed. And, of course, you can do the same with regard to Christianity.

If we follow that tact, I can almost guarantee that we will inform our negative views of one another without actually doing anything to dislodge our ignorace. Fortunately you have not done that. You may have started there, but you have gone the second and more important mile and sought other answers. You've asked why you have found these negative things. You have found them because they do exist. Not all Christians behave in Christian ways. Not all who call themselves Christian even practice Christian beliefs. Some indeed are simply ignorant and use religion as a buttress to their own unfettered prejuidices. But, please, don't rely on them to be representative of Christianity for you.

In other cases the problem is greater. People like the Pope do represent a large portion of the Christian world (though remember not all of it) and have a great deal of influence. Unfortunately, even such people make mistakes. They can come to erroneous conclusions. Each one of us has done this in the past and no doubt will in the future. The Pope is not immune to such mistakes any more than the rest of us. Sadly, his mistakes may lead others down the wrong path as well. The good news is that in the case you cited, other Christias (including some Catholics) have responded to challenge and correct the Pope with regard to his views. So, don't even take his statements as the final word.

If you continue to do the looking you have begun here, I am sure that you will find many more Christians that view Muhammad (despite the imperfections we would ascribe to him sharing in common with the rest of humanity) as a good, influential, perhaps even a great man.
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GuestFellow
12-22-2010, 04:57 PM
:sl:

I think it is because many people never studied Islam properly. We live in busy times and some people feel they have no time to read books or listen to lectures about Islam. These people obtain information from the media, which presents it in a short simple format. I don't blame these people, I think they have been misled by the media.

If they were to study everything about Islam, they would be able to make a informed decision about what they truly think of the religion.
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Lynx
12-22-2010, 10:34 PM
I think more and more is being said and taught about Mohammad and the history of Islam. There's much in the media trying to illustrate that Islam isn't all about violence and that it has had a rich history that is completely opposite to the current 'dark age' that most of the Muslim world has found itself in. As for why Mohammad isn't talked about as much as one would expect, given his history and the events surrounding him, is simply that the West is more concerned about its own history and figures. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King are not praised just because of their involvement in the civil rights movement; they are celebrated because they were American figures. There's much less written on the Buddha or Hindu or other Eastern moral figures than Mohammad and this is probably because they are even more far removed from Western culture.
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I_notGenerous
12-23-2010, 10:08 AM
Why the Christians have the opportunity to call our Prophet S.A.W such names? who is to be blamed? the Christians? I dont think so.
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I_notGenerous
12-23-2010, 10:12 AM
When, and what is wrong from the time it started till the impact now is very bad. If the Christians called our Prophet S.A.W such names, (I believed most of the Christians do not like to tarnish their own conduct.) what have we done to improve ourselves so as not to make them believe that Muslims are not like that? Do we have ethics?
Reply

Perseveranze
12-23-2010, 09:17 PM
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you)

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Well, one reason would be because he wasn't the first to denounce racism. Not saying that he didn't denounce racism at a time when it was still rampant. But he simply wasn't the first.
I disagree, I believe he was the first person to ban Racism. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, sure I agree others before him may have denounced racism, but Muhammad(pbuh) actually made the change, made it a law that racism should not happen.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
For instance the following was written hundreds of years before Muhammad (pbuh) was even born:
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." --the Apostle Paul in a letter to the church at Galatia (Galatians 3:28).

And before that we have these comments: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." --the Apostle Peter reflecting on what he learned from a vision with respect to how to receive and make room for non-Jews in his life (Acts 10:34).
The problem with this is that Jesus(pbuh) only peached in a spiritual sense, he(pbuh) never implemented anything, when he was persecuted he had to stop his teachings, so his people never accepted him(pbuh) or his(pbuh) teachings. Jesus(pbuh) was sent to the Jews(children of Isreal), 300 years later, someone decided to make a religion in his(pbuh) name (feel free to correct me if I am wrong here).

This is the same as someone quoting someone from much before Jesus(pbuh) and making a religious teaching out of that person and say he was the first person to "say this and this", yet there's no evidence or proof or anything to show any of their teachings were in actual fact implemented or followed (not Racism atleast).

Now let's look at Muhammad(pbuh). He did the same thing as Jesus(pbuh), except when it came to the point where he was being persecuted, he(pbuh) didn't stop his preaching, it got to the point where God allowed Muhammad(pbuh) to fight back in order to protect his preachings(which btw, is what Jesus(pbuh) will also do, on his return according to your Bible). Thus when victory came to the Muslims, Muhammad(pbuh) set his teachings as the God given Law, 1400 years ago.

When he died, these laws remained in tact and people followed them as if they were the word of God. The Caliphates continue'd using these laws as Shariah and thus Racism was from Arabia starting to be demolished for good.

Forward to to America, Racism was still extremely bad in the recent century, not even the Government gave much support to remove it, I mean "black people had to go to the back of the bus". Furthermore, people like Malcolm X went into the false "Nation of Islam" which only taught them that blacks was superior to white's and that this is Islam's teachings. However, when Malcolm X went on a Hajj trip, this is the enlightenment he found of the true Islam, the Islam that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) brought to Mankind -

Never have I witnessed such sincere hospitality and overwhelming spirit of true brotherhood as is practiced by people of all colors and races here in this ancient Holy Land, the home of Abraham, Muhammad and all the other Prophets of the Holy Scriptures. For the past week, I have been utterly speechless and spellbound by the graciousness I see displayed all around me by people of all colors.
I have been blessed to visit the Holy City of Mecca, I have made my seven circuits around the Ka'ba, led by a young Mutawaf named Muhammad, I drank water from the well of the Zam Zam. I ran seven times back and forth between the hills of Mt. Al-Safa and Al Marwah. I have prayed in the ancient city of Mina, and I have prayed on Mt. Arafat.
There were tens of thousands of pilgrims, from all over the world. They were of all colors, from blue-eyed blondes to black-skinned Africans. But we were all participating in the same ritual, displaying a spirit of unity and brotherhood that my experiences in America had led me to believe never could exist between the white and non-white.
America needs to understand Islam, because this is the one religion that erases from its society the race problem. Throughout my travels in the Muslim world, I have met, talked to, and even eaten with people who in America would have been considered white - but the white attitude was removed from their minds by the religion of Islam. I have never before seen sincere and true brotherhood practiced by all colors together, irrespective of their color.
You may be shocked by these words coming from me. But on this pilgrimage, what I have seen, and experienced, has forced me to rearrange much of my thought-patterns previously held, and to toss aside some of my previous conclusions. This was not too difficult for me. Despite my firm convictions, I have always been a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth.
During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass, and slept on the same rug - while praying to the same God - with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the deeds of the white Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana.
We were truly all the same (brothers) - because their belief in one God had removed the white from their minds, the white from their behavior, and the white from their attitude.
I could see from this, that perhaps if white Americans could accept the Oneness of God, then perhaps, too, they could accept in reality the Oneness of Man - and cease to measure, and hinder, and harm others in terms of their 'differences' in color.
With racism plaguing America like an incurable cancer, the so-called 'Christian' white American heart should be more receptive to a proven solution to such a destructive problem. Perhaps it could be in time to save America from imminent disaster - the same destruction brought upon Germany by racism that eventually destroyed the Germans themselves.
Each hour here in the Holy Land enables me to have greater spiritual insights into what is happening in America between black and white. The American Negro never can be blamed for his racial animosities - he is only reacting to four hundred years of the conscious racism of the American whites. But as racism leads America up the suicide path, I do believe, from the experiences that I have had with them, that the whites of the younger generation, in the colleges and universities, will see the handwriting on the walls and many of them will turn to the spiritual path of truth - the only way left to America to ward off the disaster that racism inevitably must lead to.
Never have I been so highly honored. Never have I been made to feel more humble and unworthy. Who would believe the blessings that have been heaped upon an American Negro? A few nights ago, a man who would be called in America a white man, a United Nations diplomat, an ambassador, a companion of kings, gave me his hotel suite, his bed. Never would I have even thought of dreaming that I would ever be a recipient of such honors - honors that in America would be bestowed upon a King - not a Negro.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of all the Worlds.
Sincerely,
Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz
^This is how Arabian lands and everywhere Islam was dominant has been for nearly 1400 years, the cause of this? Muhammad(pbuh). This is accepted by western intellects today, so I don't really understand why you won't accept it, just like the rest of the west (or should I say notified of this fact).

I can use the same example for religious tolerance -

Muhammad adhered meticulously to the charter he forged for Medina, which - grounded as it was in the Qur’anic injunction, “Let there be no compulsion in religion” (2:256) - is arguably the first mandate for religious tolerance in human history.
[Huston Smith]

The proof for this is the 15million or more Christians living peacefully in Muslim lands today, some who's ancestors date right back to the time of the Prophet(pbuh). Muslims on the other hand only recently came to the west and then since 9/11 absolutly multiplied by the numbers through vast conversions.

The number of verses in Qur’an inviting close observation of nature are several times more than those that relate to prayer, fasting, pilgrimage etc. all put together. The Muslim under its influence began to observe nature closely and this gives birth to the scientific spirit of the observation and experiment which was unknown to the Greeks. [Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao]

The Christian World came to wage crusades against Muslims but eventually knelt before them to gain knowledge. They were spellbound to see that Muslims were owners of a culture that was far superior to their own. The Dark Ages of Europe were illuminated by nothing but the beacon of Muslim civilization. [F.J.C. Hearushaw]

Because of Muhammad(pbuh) being the first to engage religious tolerance were the west accepted to gain and share knowledge with the Muslim civilization, through them did the west prosper enormously and come out of the "dark ages".

The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Qur’an. [Johann Goethe]

^Only until they acknowledged the Muslims were they able to take vast knowledge from them for their own benefits. Before this they were killing people for suggesting the "Earth was round".

And I can go on and on and on. Give me one Civilization before the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that was revolutionized in such a way, that not only was racism eradicated, but women were given rights, animals had rights - a revolution that not only changed nation's way of governing, but changed the way it's people acted all the way to how it's people "think"; this positive change which even the west benefited from, all happened within a span of 23 years, because of Muhammad(pbuh) through the inspiration of God. It is undisputed that this is the biggest revolution in the whole of history.

Why doesn't the West globally acknowledge or is taught this? I requote -

The lies that we (Christians) have heaped round this man (Muhammad) are disgraceful to ourselves only. [Thomas Carlyle]

Of all the world's greatest men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad. It is easy to see how this has come about. For centuries Islam was the great enemy of Christendom, for Christendom was in direct contact with no other organized states comparable in power to the Muslims. [Montgomery Watt]

If you still after all this for some reason don't agree, then I don't really know what more to say, what more even Non-Muslims can say who attest to all this.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now it may be that those who followed them in the practice of Christian teachings didn't adopt the same views which these folks had with regard to not looking at a person's race, but these views were expressed and taught long before Muhammad (pbuh). Further, those folks like Martin Luther King who were able to effect a real change with regard to the treatment of people of minority races by the majority referred back to these (and other) Christian teachings and not the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh) when they presented their message.
Your clearly very misinformed if you believe the teachings of Muhammad(pbuh), the very fundemantal of his teachings were ignored the moment he died in the same way Jesus(pbuh) or anyone before him's were.


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As a result Muhammad's (pbuh) contributions will be discounted while those others who have provided greater influence to their own life will have their stature enhanced.
Because of early Christian influence, do you not agree? Medevil Christianity if you research it, you'll see what their version of Muhammad(pbuh) was.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Muhammad (pbuh) is a great influence in your life. And that of course enhances your view of him.
Despite this not being the point, I'm pretty sure it's not just the 1.7 billion Muslims that see him as this, there are still many Non-Muslims who aren't particulary Christians that see him the same way.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
But when you report that you've only known three Christians to ever have something good to say about Muhammad (pbuh), it seems to me that your sampling pool must be incredibly small.
Not really, because even (most) of the websites I go to (Christian one's) there's also always something on Islam and Muhammad(pbuh) that's untrue, plenty of adverts of their hero "Robert Spencer" lol.

I think your in a bit of denial if you think Christians as a whole look at him in a positive light, you may be the minority then.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'll bet up until 10-20 years ago, 80% of Christians in the west didn't even bother to think about Islam one way or another.
Further attest to the tolerance mentioned above. Or did someone else "say this before Muhammad(pbuh) but never implemented it either"?


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, with regard to some of the characterizations of Muhammad (pbuh) that you don't appreciate. I don't think they will ever go away. He did things, things that will be judged and evaluated by people both who have adopted the same faith as he and those who will forever remain outside of it. Those different points of view will quite naturally have an impact on what they see. And some will see that Muhammad (pbuh) took a child as his wife and regardless of the culture of his day, he will be judged by the culture of the reviewer and be dubbed (at least by some) a pedophile. You may call that ignorance. If so, it isn't ignorance of events, but a decision to ignore the role of Muhammad's (pbuh) culture and to judge him by the reviewer's culture instead.
This is ignorance though. You say "child" but we Muslims and other experts in this historical field do not see it as a Child. The ignorance part comes when the following is ignored;

- The Quran explicitly condemns the marraige of a child. Young girls is allowed, but a child is not.
- How does a child consent of a marraige (which is a mandate before any girl being married).
- How does a child "teach nations"? Plenty of Hadiths prove that Aisha(pbuh) not long after her marraige was teaching people of all ages about Islam.
- How does a child go into a battlefield (battle of budr, 1 year after her marraige) and address the injured and hurt? One of the reasons why some people doubt Aisha(pbuh) was even 9 years old, because only 15+ were allowed in the battlefield (Link)
- How does a child get jelous of her husband.
- How does a child fall "in love" with her husband
- Why didn't the enemies of Islam see the Quran recitations about banning the marraige of Children, yet not accuse the Prophet(pbuh) for going against the Quran?
- Aisha(pbuh)'s father asked the Prophet(pbuh) for marraige, it would've been offensive/rejection if the Prophet(pbuh) said no, as at the time he literally had no reason to say no.
- If he was a pedophile, then what about his marraige to the 40 year old Khadija, which was a 1 partner marraige? What about his marraige to the other women who were again, some in their 40's and 50's? Should we just ignore the political influences of these marraiges aswell?
- This list goes on..

Ignoring these is, imo ignorance. There is ofcourse the "ignorance trend", I mean I'm sure you have some sort of gist as to what the early Christians interpretation of Muhammad(pbuh) was? Feel free to go look it up on Wiki if you like, not a single accusation of pedophilia. That, for those that think, tells you something.

Aisha(pbuh) may well have been 9 years old, but she most certainly wasn't a child, she was able to do alot more in her time with the Prophet(pbuh), than what women of today are able to do their whole lives.

Atleast if someone said "the Prophet had 11 wives, I don't like this", sure Muslims would give a valid explanation which people can accept or reject, but this sort of accusation is atleast not based on falsehood.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The Pope is NOT the 1 leader for all Christians like you report here. He is the leader for the largest group of Christians, but there are many, many more for whom he is no more than a person of interest, and not a leader at all. Indeed, as a pastor I have a bishop who is over me, but it is not the Pope nor any Catholic bishop. I am not Catholic, I am United Methodist. Yes, his words have influence, but they don't carry authority outside of the Catholic Church. And some Imam's do indeed do the same -- that is they don't have authority, but they do have influence -- and not just within their own masjid, but beyond through the media of our day able to influence people all around he world.

Now a quick search will lead me to all sorts of interesting statements that I am told are "supposed" to represent Islam. Here is just one sample:
Your comparing the Pope, who millions of people follow, who's comment's caused a national outrage not by Muslim countries but also by Non-Muslim countries aswell; your comparing that to an Imam who maybe a few hundred people listen to, who out of those few hundred only a small number take heed too; seeing as these people aren't born yesterday and do have some idea of what their own religion is really about and what it teaches.

An Imam by my book is only equivilent to a Priest. At this moment, as far as religious figures go, nothing tops the Pope, who by all means have alot of influence over their followers.

.
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Should I accept this view as being representative of Islam? Most Muslims I know would refute these points as not being central to Islam. And yet it is out there. On what shall I garner my view of what is and isn't true Islam?
It is the same for Christianity; Look at the Pastor who wanted to burn the Quran, his wasn't exactly a "website call" it was in the media, again of all countries. Can you imagine if a Muslim did that (against the Bible) in a Muslim country? He would probalby get the death sentence or go straight in jail for breaking the religious tolerance law, this Pastor on the other hand is being allowed to continue his preaching and is being invited into other countries aswell.

Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The internet provides us access to what we seek. On it I can seek for all in Islam that I might find violating my conscience and what I believe. I can seek for those biases that I have against Islam or Muhammad (pbuh) and have them confirmed. And, of course, you can do the same with regard to Christianity.
Everyone has a mind to think. Remember when I said in a previous thread about how some Christian in a video talked about believing Mary(pbuh) was apart of the trinity? I was confused but I never exactly believed that, because that would make it incestreous and I'm sure that's not what Christians would believe in. It's the same for the Prophet(pbuh), do you really think 1.7 billion people would believe that he was a mass murderer, a pedophile or w/e other false allegations that are thrown at him? People should think a bit, rather then accept it as truth.

Robert Spencer is the worst example of this; Christians (not all) almost worship him, because they think he's showing the world what the "true Muhammad(pbuh) is" or the "true Islam". Looking at the Amazon comments, thank God I saw 1 or 2 (seemingly Christian people) say that to them "it did seem like he was twisting some verses in the Quran"(they did get scrutinated by fellow members in reply comments); otherwise I only saw comments like "THANK YOU SPENCER, I was in a dillema whether to convert to Islam or stay with Christianity, and YOUR TRUTHFUL BOOK saved me, your my hero". - Uh, why don't you double check the claims with other sources please?


Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you continue to do the looking you have begun here, I am sure that you will find many more Christians that view Muhammad (despite the imperfections we would ascribe to him sharing in common with the rest of humanity) as a good, influential, perhaps even a great man.
Well the struggle will always be there, for the Muslims and some considerate Non-Muslims to try and remove the misconceptions. Feel free to hate, but atleast don't hate on falsehood; which is the misconception the Ummah is challenged today to change.

Anyways, the point of this reply was to try and prove that Muhammad(pbuh) was the first person recorded in history to ban racism, not just "speak out against it" but to actually ban it. Whether you accept this or not, that's your choice; and if you opinion is the same; then this conversation is best kept to stop here otherwise it literally will just be a "cycle" of long and pointless replies that none of the other recipients are willing to take into heed. Oh and I hope I have offended you in anything that I've said, if I have then I apologise before hand.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-23-2010, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Perseveranze
Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with you)

I disagree, I believe he was the first person to ban Racism. Maybe there's a misunderstanding here, sure I agree others before him may have denounced racism, but Muhammad(pbuh) actually made the change, made it a law that racism should not happen.
There was indeed a misunderstanding. I started talking about where the ideas came from that emerged in the west. You were talking about actual historical events. I did not know that Muhammad (pbuh) had actually implemented laws which made it unlawful to practice "colorism" until I read your post; in fact it took me two readings to see that this is what you had said. Good for him. It is an ideal shared by many, but implemented by few. So, we will simply plead ignorance -- I've already outlined why we might be ignorant of those historical facts given the origins of western culture (e.g., American history as taught in public schools is very Euro-centric) -- and stop.
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I_notGenerous
12-27-2010, 04:53 PM
Salam to all,

sorry, I would like to know how would some Muslims measured themselves as Mojahideen? How would they ranked themselves? How would they judged at their own view by looking themselves in the mirror?
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I_notGenerous
12-27-2010, 05:07 PM
I think your context is exagerating. "Jealousy" is subjective. "Jealousy" does not mean love or hatred. The feeling of jealousy is not equivalent to love or to hate. It does not matter, the interpretation depends on whom interprets it. A man differ from a woman, a child differ from an adult. A nine years old, a young teenage girl differ from a male adult. Only a child understands a child, only a woman understands a woman. I doubt an adult male would understand a fifteen years old girl and a fifteen years old girl to understand an adult male.
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