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Hamza Asadullah
12-23-2010, 10:22 PM
The Truth about Christmas


The Christmas season has been aggressively promoted in every aspect of business, in schools, in every public place. High pressure sales tactics have invaded the home through television, radio, magazine and newspaper, captivating the imagination with every kind of attraction day and night for a month or more every year. Little wonder that many of those thus targeted so persistently succumb to temptation. Among earlier generations, Christmas was an occasion which was still basically religious in orientation. Gifts, trees, decorations and feasting assumed lesser roles. But now all of this has changed.

As noted in an American publication, Christmas has gone the way of many other aspects of society, becoming one more element in the mass culture which every season enables manufacturers and merchants to make millions of dollars through an elaborate system of gift exchange which comes more often from mutual expectations that "must" be fulfilled than from the heart.

The commonly accepted notion that happiness is derived largely from possessions and entertainment is the driving force behind the month-long preparations and festivities which continue on through the end of the year. This fact, although blameworthy in itself, has led many Muslims into the delusion that Christmas is no longer a religious occasion and therefore does not conflict with Islamic belief.

The materialistic atmosphere surrounding the celebration of Christmas is, in reality, a manifestation of pagan culture at its worst. It can only be seen by the conscious Muslim believer as a rat-race designed and implemented by Shaytaan to accomplish a great waste of time, effort, money and resources while countless families barely subsist in a state of poverty throughout many areas of the world. In addition to the commercial side of Christmas, although less obvious to the casual observer, are certain religious aspects to be noted.

The celebration was and still is intended by practising Christians as a remembrance of the birth of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) who is considered by many of them as God incarnate or the second person in a trinity, and thus they celebrate the birth of "divinity." The word itself is an abbreviated form of "Christ Mass," i.e., sacrament in commemoration of Christ. Although taken by Christians to be the birthday of Jesus, the actual date of celebration, December 25th, cannot be traced back any further than the fourth century after Christ.

Ironically, this day is also considered to be the birthday of the Hindu god, Krishna, as well as Mithra, the Greek god of light. It also coincides with the annual Tree Festival which had long been celebrated in Northern Europe before the Christian era and which has been recently revived in some Arab countries in an attempt to encourage celebration by disguising the religious significance of the day.

The Christmas tree is the most obvious aspect of that pagan celebration which was incorporated along with its date of observance, December 25th, into church rites. The evergreen tree, because it keeps its green needles throughout the winter months, was believed by pre-Christian pagans to have special powers of protection against the forces of nature and evil spirits. The end of December marked the onset of a visible lengthening of daylight hours - the return of warmth and light and defeat of those evil forces of cold and darkness. At a particular stage of its development, the church is known to have adopted certain of the popular pagan practices into Christianity for political or social reasons.

Thus, in more aspects than one, the holiday is deeply rooted in the worship of different forms of creation rather than the Creator Himself.

The true origins of Christmas and everything related to it

Christmas as well as everything related to it has all come from roman pagan beliefs mainly from the roman pagan festival of Saturnalia. The Christmas tree came from Pagans who had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church.

The Origin of Mistletoe came from Norse mythology which recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow by his rival god Hoder while fighting for the female Nanna. Druid rituals use mistletoe to poison their human sacrificial victim. The Christian custom of “kissing under” the mistletoe is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult.

The giving of Christmas Presents originated in pre-Christian Rome where the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring offerings and gifts during the Saturnalia (in December) and Kalends (in January). Later, this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among the general populace. The Catholic Church gave this custom a Christian flavor by re-rooting it in the supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas

'Santa' was derived from a man named Nicholas was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New Testament.

In 1087, a group of sailors who idolized Nicholas moved his bones from Turkey to a sanctuary in Bari, Italy. There Nicholas supplanted a female boon-giving deity called The Grandmother, or Pasqua Epiphania, who used to fill the children's stockings with her gifts. The Grandmother was ousted from her shrine at Bari, which became the center of the Nicholas cult. Members of this group gave each other gifts during a pageant they conducted annually on the anniversary of Nicholas’ death, December 6.

The Nicholas cult spread north until it was adopted by German and Celtic pagans. These groups worshipped a pantheon led by Woden –their chief god and the father of Thor, Balder, and Tiw. Woden had a long, white beard and rode a horse through the heavens one evening each Autumn. When Nicholas merged with Woden, he shed his Mediterranean appearance, grew a beard, mounted a flying horse, rescheduled his flight for December, and donned heavy winter clothing.

In a bid for pagan adherents in Northern Europe, the Catholic Church adopted the Nicholas cult and taught that he did (and they should) distribute gifts on December 25th instead of December 6th.

In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.

Dr. Clement Moore, a professor at Union Seminary, read Knickerbocker History, and in 1822 he published a poem based on the character Santa Claus: “Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in the hope that Saint Nicholas soon would be there…” Moore innovated by portraying a Santa with eight reindeer who descended through chimneys.

The Bavarian illustrator Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. From 1862 through 1886, based on Moore’s poem, Nast drew more than 2,200 cartoon images of Santa for Harper’s Weekly. Before Nast, Saint Nicholas had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. All Santa was missing was his red outfit.

In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. Sundblom modeled his Santa on his friend Lou Prentice, chosen for his cheerful, chubby face. The corporation insisted that Santa’s fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. And Santa was born – a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.

It is also believed that Christmas' date was chosen to take advantage of the imperial holiday of the birth of the Sun God Mithras and the pagan festival of Saturnalia which was thought to have been taken over by Christians leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.

The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

One should always look properly into the origins of any festival or celebration because knowledge is the key to clarification on any matter and without it we will remain lost and confused.

Sources:

http://www.dawanet.com/nonmuslim/intro/xmas/xmas1.html

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vita...eRealStory.htm


The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ proving that God is one:


"My Father is greater than I." [The Bible, John 14:28]

"My Father is greater than all." [The Bible, John 10:29]

"…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." [The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

"…I with the finger of God cast out devils…." [The Bible, Luke 11:20]

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [The Bible, John 5:30]


Have a look at a few of these links for your own knowledge:


How The Bible Led Me To Islam Recommended

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...-me-islam.html


Very Useful Threads For Those Looking Into Islam, Some Amazing threads for those looking into Islam!!!

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...nto-islam.html


Brilliant "proof Of Islam" Lectures By Abdul Rahman Green

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...man-green.html


ISLAM IS THE TRUTH - Older Manuscripts found in Palestine says that Jesus Christ (A) is NOT a God!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flafC8VDhms


See why they converted to Islam:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=44218
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Zafran
12-23-2010, 10:42 PM
salaam

regardless of what people think - its quite clear that christmas has become less about christ and more about - Trees, presents, business, consumerism and parties. The religious aspect is nowhere to be seen.

peace.
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IAmZamzam
12-23-2010, 11:23 PM
You didn't cite any sources about your historical information. I would like to find out how it is that the Norse legend of mistletoe being used like kryptonite to kill Baldur in a scheme by Loki somehow ended up spawning a tradition of kissing beneath the plant on certain holidays. (Interestingly, the mistletoe was not used in the legend as poison but as a throwing object: go figure.) It is true that December 25th is the day because of Mithraism's sol invictus day (meaning invincible or unconquered sun, a title Mithras went by) but this is simply because Emperor Constantine merged the two holidays into the same day so as to help reduce tension between Christians and Mithraists in the Roman Empire. Also, when you say that evergreen trees were supposed to ward off evil, are you sure you don't mean holly? Because that's the only Christmas-related tree of that sort that I know of. (Holly was often said to do that by many ancient people, though there were also medieval legends of witches living in holly forests. The word has the same root as "holy".)
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Hamza Asadullah
12-23-2010, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by Yahya Sulaiman
You didn't cite any sources about your historical information. I would like to find out how it is that the Norse legend of mistletoe being used like kryptonite to kill Baldur in a scheme by Loki somehow ended up spawning a tradition of kissing beneath the plant on certain holidays. (Interestingly, the mistletoe was not used in the legend as poison but as a throwing object: go figure.) It is true that December 25th is the day because of Mithraism's sol invictus day (meaning invincible or unconquered sun, a title Mithras went by) but this is simply because Emperor Constantine merged the two holidays into the same day so as to help reduce tension between Christians and Mithraists in the Roman Empire. Also, when you say that evergreen trees were supposed to ward off evil, are you sure you don't mean holly? Because that's the only Christmas-related tree of that sort that I know of. (Holly was often said to do that by many ancient people, though there were also medieval legends of witches living in holly forests. The word has the same root as "holy".)
Asalaamu Alaikum, i apologise i have now updated the article with the two sources that i used to compile the article together.
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Grace Seeker
12-23-2010, 11:51 PM
There is a lot of material presented as fact in your post. Some things can be substantiated, the contributions by Moore and Nash to the present Santa cult for instance. Other things I think are at best hypothesis -- for instance I have never heard before that the Catholic church actually taught gifts should be given on December 25 rather than December 6. And a whole lot of other things that have become part of modern practices associated with the holiday are also lost in the annuals of time.

But on one point you and I strongly agree:
Originally Posted by Hamza81
The materialistic atmosphere surrounding the celebration of Christmas is, in reality, a manifestation of pagan culture at its worst.
This materialistic atmosphere has indeed become the very worst aspect of the modern celebration of Christmas. It has nothing to do with the genuine meaning behind Christmas either. Christmas isn't about buying and selling. It isn't about getting at all. It is about a single gift, God's gift to humanity. That get lost in all of the other stuff that clutters up Christmas these days. And those who miss it are really just celebrating a secular holiday. Devoid of the message of God's love and his incarnation among us, this secular Christmas truly is exactly what Webster's dictionary lists as it's #2 definition for the word pagan: "one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person."
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Hamza Asadullah
12-23-2010, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I have never heard before that the Catholic church actually taught gifts should be given on December 25 rather than December 6.
Wikipedia also confirms this with many referances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas
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Grace Seeker
12-24-2010, 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by Hamza81
Wikipedia also confirms this with many referances:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Where?

The article talks about the various origins of the modern Santa cult. And I know that Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra is a key figure in it. (The only one worth emulating in my consideration.) And I know that December 6 is recognized as his feast day in the Catholic Church and that in many places of the world it is celebrated as a day to give gifts to children. All these things I know beforereading the article.

But, even after reading it, I don't see where the Catholic Church is ever to have taught to transfer this practice from one day of the calendar year to another.
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Watcher888
12-24-2010, 08:56 AM
Is there any instruction to celebrate Christmas at all?

I don't think the bible says to do so!
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Grace Seeker
12-24-2010, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Watcher888
Is there any instruction to celebrate Christmas at all?

I don't think the bible says to do so!

No. The Bible doesn't speak of celebrating any particular date, other than the Jew's annual celebration of their escape from slavery in Egypt.


Christmas means "Christ's mass." It is common for the Catholic Church to hold a mass in honor of many people. Even today, in the Catholic Church, when a person dies, Catholic families will ask their local priest to hold a mass in honor of their loved one. This is usually the funeral service, but may be held at other times as well. In the case of notable figures from the history of the church, there are annual feast days of celebration. So, certainly it is no surprise then that the central figure of the Church, Jesus Christ, should have a mass celebrated in honor of him. Indeed, all masses are centered on him, for they are at their core a sacrament celebrating his death and resurrection.

When did the celebration of the specific mass for Christ start? We don't know exactly. The first recorded celebration of Christmas (with a December 25 date) appears in 336 AD. But there is actually history that goes back even before that:

The first evidence of the feast is from Egypt. About A.D. 200,Clement of AlexandriaStromata I.21) says that certain theologians"over curiously" assign, not the year alone, but the day of Christ's birth, placing it on 25 Pachon (20 May) in the twenty-eighth year of Augustus. [Ideler (Chron., II, 397, n.) thought they did this believing that the ninth month, in which Christ was born, was the ninth of their own calendar.] Others reached the date of 24 or 25 Pharmuthi (19 or 20 April). With Clement's evidence may be mentioned the "De paschæ computus", written in 243 and falsely ascribed to Cyprian (P.L., IV, 963 sqq.), which places Christ's birth on 28 March, because on that day the material sun was created. But Lupi has shown (Zaccaria, Dissertazioni ecc. del p. A.M. Lupi, Faenza, 1785, p. 219) that there is no month in the year to which respectable authorities have not assigned Christ's] birth.

(source: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

Actually, much of the information provided by Hamza81 is substantially correct. It is mostly in the connotations that are implied by his wording that I've alluded to already that I take umbrage. But then again, his sources are non-Christian sources that seem to me to be desiring to put down and ridicule Christmas. So, the tone is not unanticipated. Allow me to provide the same information from a Christian source:

Today is Christmas day (Christ's mass). But for the first 300 years of Christianity, it wasn't so. When was Christmas first celebrated? In an old list of Roman bishops, compiled in A. D. 354 these words appear for A.D. 336: "25 Dec.: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae." December 25th, Christ born in Bethlehem, Judea. This day, December 25, 336, is the first recorded celebration of Christmas.

For the first three hundred years of the church's existence, birthdays were not given much emphasis--not even the birth of Christ. The day on which a saint died was considered more significant than his or her birth, as it ushered him or her into the kingdom of heaven. Christ's baptism received more attention than his birthday in the January 6th feast of Epiphany.

No one knows for sure on what day Christ was born. Dionysus Exiguus, a sixth century monk, who was the first to date all of history from December 25th, the year of our Lord 1. Other traditions gave dates as early as mid-November or as late as March. How did Christmas come to be celebrated on December 25th? Cultures around the Mediterranean and across Europe observed feasts on or around December 25th, marking the winter solstice. The Jews had a festival of lights. Germans had a yule festival. Celtic legends connected the solstice with Balder, the Scandinavian sun god who was struck down by a mistletoe arrow. At the pagan festival of Saturnalia, Romans feasted and gave gifts to the poor. Drinking was closely connected with these pagan feasts. At some point, a Christian bishop may have adopted the day to keep his people from indulging in the old pagan festival.

Historian William J. Tighe offers a different view, however. When a consensus arose in the church to celebrate Christ's conception on March 25th, it was reasonable to celebrate his birth nine months later.

Many of the pagan customs became associated with Christmas. Christian stories replaced the heathen tales, but the practices hung on. Candles continued to be lit. Kissing under the mistletoe remained common in Scandinavian countries. But over the years, gift exchanges became connected with the name of St. Nicholas, a real but legendary figure of 4th century Lycia (a province of Asia). A charitable man, he threw gifts into homes.

Around the thirteenth century, Christians added one of the most pleasant touches of all to Christmas celebration when they began to sing Christmas carols.

No one is sure just when the Christmas tree came into the picture. It originated in Germany. The 8th century English missionary, St. Boniface, Apostle to Germany, is supposed to have held up the evergreen as a symbol of the everlasting Christ. By the end of the sixteenth century, Christmas trees were common in Germany. Some say Luther cut the first, took it home, and decked it with candles to represent the stars. When the German court came to England, the Christmas tree came with them.

Puritans forbade Christmas, considering it too pagan. Governor Bradford actually threatened New Englanders with work, jail or fines if they were caught observing Christmas.

In 1843, in Victorian England, Charles Dickens published his novelette "A Christmas Carol." It became one of the most popular short works of fiction ever penned. Although the book is more a work of sentiment than of Christianity, it captures something of the Christmas spirit. The tightfisted grump, Ebenezer Scrooge, who exclaimed "humbug!" at the mention of Christmas, is contrasted with generous merry-makers such as his nephew, Fred and with the struggling poor, symbolized by Bob Cratchit and Tiny Tim. The book's appeal to good works and charitable contributions virtually defines Christmas in English-speaking lands.
Whatever the ins and outs of Christmas, we are still unwrapping the gift of God's Son--and what an incentive to generosity and joy that gift is!

(source: "The 1st Recorded Celebration of Christmas" by Dan Graves in Church History Timeline

For some, reading this will confirm what Hamza81 has said, Christmas is nothing more than something of pagan origin. You won't be surprised that my way of looking at it is the reverse. Under the influence of the church, Christian traditions replaced pagan solstice festivals throughout Europe. Often the more innocent pagan practices (such as bringing in a Yule log, decorating with holly and the like) were carried over into the Christmas observance, but transfigured with new meaning. In my opinion, every religion has some elements of this in them in which that it takes items that were practiced by the culture of the people who have adopted this new religion and then (using a Christian term to describe the process) baptizes them with new meaning or intent and thus adopts them into their new religious celebrations.


With regard to the origin of the date of the celebration being set for December 25 I share a rather long and involved article for those who care to bother with it:
ORIGIN OF DATE


The gospels
Concerning the date of Christ's birth the Gospels give no help; upon their data contradictory arguments are based. The census would have been impossible in winter: a whole population could not then be put in motion. Again, in winter it must have been; then only field labour was suspended. But Rome was not thus considerate. Authorities moreover differ as to whether shepherds could or would keep flocks exposed during the nights of the rainy season.


Zachary's temple service
Arguments based on Zachary's temple ministry are unreliable, though the calculations of antiquity (see above) have been revived in yet more complicated form, e.g. by Friedlieb (Leben J. Christi des Erlösers, Münster, 1887, p. 312). The twenty-four classes of Jewish priests, it is urged, served each a week in the Temple; Zachary was in the eighth class, Abia. The Temple was destroyed 9 Ab, A.D. 70; late rabbinical tradition says that class 1, Jojarib, was then serving. From these untrustworthy data, assuming that Christwas born A.U.C. 749, and that never in seventy turbulent years the weekly succession failed, it is calculated that the eighth class was serving 2-9 October, A.U.C. 748, whence Christ's conceptionfalls in March, and birth presumably in December. Kellner (op. cit., pp. 106, 107) shows how hopeless is the calculation of Zachary's week from any point before or after it.


Analogy to Old Testament festivals
It seems impossible, on analogy of the relation of Passover and Pentecost to Easter and , to connect the Nativity with the feast of Tabernacles, as did, e.g., Lightfoot (Horæ Hebr, et Talm., II, 32), arguing from Old Testament prophecy, e.g. Zacharias 14:16 sqq.; combining, too, the fact of Christ's death in Nisan with Daniel's prophecy of a three and one-half years' ministry (9:27), he puts the birth in Tisri, i.e. September. As undesirable is it to connect 25 December with the Eastern (December) feast of Dedication (Jos. Ant. Jud., XII, vii, 6).


Natalis Invicti
The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 12, p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus' Calendar. It would be impossible here even to outline the history of solar symbolism and language as applied to God the Messiah, and Christ in Jewish or Christian canonical, patristic, or devotional works. Hymns and Christmas offices abound in instances; the texts are well arranged by Cumont (op. cit., addit. Note C, p. 355).

The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitiæ." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord] . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."

Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.

Pope Leo I(Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals —Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).

But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common:Mithra'sadoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa.


Other theories of pagan origin
The origin of Christmas should not be sought in the Saturnalia (1-23 December) nor even in the midnight holy birth at Eleusis (see J.E. Harrison, Prolegom., p. 549) with its probable connection through Phrygia with the Naasene heretics, or even with the Alexandrian [ceremonyquoted above; nor yet in rites analogous to the midwinter cult at Delphi of the cradled Dionysus, with his revocation from the sea to a new birth (Harrison, op. cit., 402 sqq.).


The astronomical theory
Duchesne (Les origines du culte chrétien, Paris, 1902, 262 sqq.) advances the "astronomical" theory that, given 25 March as Christ's death-day [historically impossible, but a tradition old as Tertullian (Adv. Jud., 8)], the popular instinct, demanding an exact number of years in a Divine life, would place His conception on the same date, His birth 25 December. This theory is best supported by the fact that certain Montanists SozomenChurch History VII.18 kept Easteron 6 April; both 25 December and 6 January are thus simultaneously explained. The reckoning, moreover, is wholly in keeping with the arguments based on number and astronomy and "convenience", then so popular. Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence for the celebration in the fourth century of Christ's conceptionon 25 March.


Conclusion
The present writer in inclined to think that, be the origin of the feast in East or West, and though the abundance of analogous midwinter festivals may indefinitely have helped the choice of the December date, the same instinct which set Natalis Invicti at the winter solstice will have sufficed, apart from deliberate adaptation or curious calculation, to set the Christian feast there too.

(source: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
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glo
12-24-2010, 07:20 PM
^
Thank you for sharing, Grace Seeker. Very interesting!
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جوري
12-24-2010, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
This materialistic atmosphere has indeed become the very worst aspect of the modern celebration of Christmas. It has nothing to do with the genuine meaning behind Christmas either

what is the genuine meaning behind Christmas? that a middle eastern God was born to a 12 year old?
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Hamza Asadullah
12-26-2010, 02:08 AM
The following is from a Christian source confirming that almost every aspect of Christmas comes from Paganism including the date of the 25th of December to Santa claus himself:

In ancient times many cultures worshiped their deities around the time of the winter solstice. From their celebrations comes not only the date when we celebrate Christmas, but also many of our holiday traditions. First recorded before the times of Christ were the Babylonians, who worshiped the sun god Isis, annually on December 25. Later Romans designated December 25 as the day of their celebration. On this day, they honored, not only Saturn, the deity of agriculture, but also the birthday of Mithras the sun god. Meanwhile on that same day, the people of northern Europe celebrated Yule, also in honor of their sun god Mithras.

During Jesus’ time, worship of Mithras continued to be popular in Rome. After Jesus’ death, Christianity began to replace pagan religions. However, many pagan converts to Christianity refused to discontinue their pagan practices. Many of these Christians worshipped Mithras on Sunday (named after the sun god), and attended the annual feast. Sighting this as a problem, church leaders decided to Christianize pagan customs, in order to attract pagans and allow converts to observe their old traditions in a godly fashion.

In 321, the Roman Emperor Constantine gave Christianity freedom in Rome. Later in 336AD, Christians unofficially replaced the pagan Roman holiday with a celebration honoring Christ’s birth. Pope Julius, who designated December 25 as the official celebration of Christ’s birth, followed this up in 350AD. This holiday became known as Christmas, or the Mass of Christ.

Christmas soon spread to other countries beyond Rome. In 432AD it had reached Egypt; during the 6th century, England was observing Christmas and by the 8th century, Scandinavia practiced it. However, the Greek Orthodox Church and Russian Orthodox Church, refused to recognize Christmas as a Christian holiday because of its pagan origin. Instead they chose to celebrate the Epiphany also known as Three Kings Day, which honored the visitation of the magi to Jesus.

Although Christianity has its basic origin in pagan holidays and early church history, the American celebration, as we know it today, has transformed over the years. Santa Claus, who is such a huge part of our Christmas celebration, originated long ago. In ancient Egypt they believed in Bes, a deity who supposedly gave presents to children who were good. Later the Romans had a similar belief in which Saturn brought everyone gifts in December. During the 4th century a bishop in Turkey by the name of Nicholas was known for his generosity specifically toward three poor, dowriless girls. After the bishop’s death his story changed over the years and eventually developed into the modern day Santa Claus.

The rather amusing practice of kissing under mistletoe came from the Norse and Romans. During their annual festivals both hung mistletoe in honor of their sun gods. Kissing under it was considered worship and the tradition has carried over into modern day.

Our most common tradition, the Christmas tree comes from the Romans. In honor of their god Mithras, they cut down trees and decorated them as Jeremiah mentions in Jeremiah 10: 3-4, “For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.” The decorated trees symbolized life and fertility but as Christmas replaced the Roman celebration the meaning changed to eternal life through Christ.

The practice of putting lights on the tree came from Martin Luther. One night as Luther was walking home he was inspired by the moonlight shining through the boughs of a fir tree. Once he arrived home he put candles in his Christmas tree. This came to symbolize Jesus being the Light of the World.

Wreaths are also associated with the Romans. Shaped like a circle, they represented the sun. Through wreaths, Romans thanked the sun for their ability to survive due to its warmth, but much like the Christmas tree the church changed the meaning to signify eternal life and God’s infinite love.

Source: http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/ess...2christmas.htm


As a so called religious celebration Christmas has been banned several times in history because of the fact that it had no religious significance and began from paganism.

The fact is that every almost every aspect of Christmas is adapted from Paganism and it is no justification to say that it took over Pagan festivals when in fact almost all aspects of Christmas still represent paganism.

The biggest adaptation from Paganism in Christianity is worshipping a man calling him God when Jesus nor the Biblical scriptures prove otherwise. Jesus called for monothiesm and for the worship of one God but through Paganism he was eventually worshipped as God himself.

Both the Noble Quran and the Bible confirm that GOD Almighty is an Absolute One and only One:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." Mark 10:18
Reply

ardianto
12-26-2010, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by Hamza81
The Truth about Christmas

In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.
Claus is Deutsche (German) name, not Dutch (Holland) name. But if Mr.Claus move to Holland his name turn into Mr.Klaas. That's why Dutch people named their Santa Claus as "Sinterklass".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

Different than modern Santa Claus in American version, Sinterklass dressed like Bishop and has an assistant named "Zwarte Piet" (Black Pete). Zwarte Piet duty is punish naughty children.

When I was kid, Sinterklaas always came with Zwarte Piet. But started since few years ago Sinterklaas always comes to Indonesia alone. I heard that's because some people regard Zwarte Piet figure as symbol of racism.
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-27-2010, 10:18 PM
All of the arguments for the pagan origins of Christmas essentially boil down to the following formula: during ancient times pagans did XYZ, today Christians do XYZ at Christmas, therefore Christmas is of pagan origins.

One could substitute almost anything in for XYZ of course (that's the purpose of such a variable); XYZ could stand for holding a celebration on December 25, or erecting a tree, exchanging gifts or the arrival of a Santa-type character.

And it looks so good that we might be ready to buy the argument. But what if we really substituted anything for XYZ, what would this wonderful logic produce if extended to other things? During ancient times nearly all pagans were known to breathe air and eat food. Therefore anyone who does these things today must be a pagan. Ridiculous isn't it?

Why it would be like observing that once in ancient times the Arabs used to engage in an annual pilgrimage to Mecca where they would walk around the Kabah in which idols had been placed and thereby somehow arrive at the conclusion that because of the similarity of some of these practices that anything that today resembled that practice must be of pagan origin. That conclusion would also, IMO, be ridiculous. But for those who think that logic of a pagan origin to Christmas is so impeccable, I'll not dispute you; rather I just invite you to look in a mirror.
Reply

جوري
12-27-2010, 10:25 PM
Nice try as always Seeker but ouch you fall short with gross under education in theology.. or perhaps have it but prefer those old missionary ways of hiding the truth in hopes others are plain ignorant as the crowd you undoubtedly head in your church?!..

Ancient Arabs when circumambulating around the Ka'aba were in fact emulating Abraham (p) for he is the one who built the house, the fact that they put idols doesn't detract from the roots of the act.. so when Muslims perform Hajj they're not keeping with a Pagan tradition rather an Abrahamic one...


the analogy is a sad one, and doesn't detract from the paganistic roots of Christianity.. which aren't simply contingent on the stolen ankh and the winter solstice, but idol worship which I think is worst of all!

all the best
Reply

Ramadhan
12-28-2010, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by
All of the arguments for the pagan origins of Christmas essentially boil down to the following formula: during ancient times pagans did XYZ, today Christians do XYZ at Christmas, therefore Christmas is of pagan origins.

One could substitute almost anything in for XYZ of course (that's the purpose of such a variable); XYZ could stand for holding a celebration on December 25, or erecting a tree, exchanging gifts or the arrival of a Santa-type character.

And it looks so good that we might be ready to buy the argument. But what if we really substituted anything for XYZ, what would this wonderful logic produce if extended to other things? During ancient times nearly all pagans were known to breathe air and eat food. Therefore anyone who does these things today must be a pagan. Ridiculous isn't it?

Really?

Are you that desperate to defend christmas, which Jesus NEVER taught, NEVER asked to do, and in fact in many bible verses the pagan festive celebrations like christmas are CONDEMNED by God and by jesus pbuh?

And while facts have been presented, even by christian scholars, that christmas did indeed take from many various pagan elements and celebrations, not only you refuse them, but you went so far to make an analogy with breathing air and eating food. Did it never occur to you how silly that would make you (and your argument)?

when a modern day pastor even defend pagan celebration sacrificing Jesus message and bible verses, you only wonder what else have previous priests and rabbis done to change the true message of Jesus.

What do you like so much about pagan celebrations?
Because it gives you warm fuzzy feelings?
Reply

titus
12-29-2010, 09:49 AM
What do you like so much about pagan celebrations?
Because it gives you warm fuzzy feelings?
They give me warm fuzzy feelings. I love them. My son is still reveling in the fun he had on Christmas, and I have extremely fond memories of Christmas from my childhood.

I don't care what their origins were. The only thing I care about is what we currently make of them.

Think of, oh say..... potatoes. Potatoes are grown in the ground and their growth is often aided with manure. Despite where they come from, though, I know that once I get hold of it it turns into something tasty.

Ancient Arabs when circumambulating around the Ka'aba were in fact emulating Abraham (p) for he is the one who built the house, the fact that they put idols doesn't detract from the roots of the act.. so when Muslims perform Hajj they're not keeping with a Pagan tradition rather an Abrahamic on
Only Muslims believe that, though. Non-Muslims believe quite different, that Muslims simply took a pagan ritual and turned it into one of their own, then rationalized it.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Only Muslims believe that, though. Non-Muslims believe quite different, that Muslims simply took a pagan ritual and turned it into one of their own, then rationalized it.

What non-Muslims believe is utterly inconsequential to the historical evidence.. a belief is just that and it applies to any belief a god can self immolate and be his own grandfather or a god can wrestle with David and lose as per Christianity and Judaism respectively, a historical account is a different story all together!

all the best
Reply

titus
12-29-2010, 04:44 PM
I agree. I find the Muslim beliefs about the Kaaba being sent to Adam and Eve about as historically accurate as someone wrestling with God.

Both are beliefs with no historical evidence to back them up. There is no historical evidence that the Kaaba was anything other than a focal point for pagan worship before Mohammad.

By the way, according to the Bible it was Jacob, not David that wrestled with God.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I agree. I find the Muslim beliefs about the Kaaba being sent to Adam and Eve about as historically accurate as someone wrestling with God. Both are beliefs with no historical evidence to back them up. There is no historical evidence that the Kaaba was anything other than a focal point for pagan worship before Mohammad. By the way, according to the Bible it was Jacob, not David that wrestled with God.

Perhaps the problem is that you are simply ignorant of the facts? How do Adam and Eve play into this at all? It is bewildering to me what little effort the lot of you put into any argument? You just drop your opinion completely unsupported by facts!
To think I was actually going to go through all the names and custodians of Kaaba since it was built by Abraham (p) until it fell into pagan Arab hands to its recovery by Muslims..
if you are more interested in the drivel you spew then so be it, don't expect the rest to be as laughably ignorant as you or take your silly opinion as anything of value!

''Adam and Eve'' lol.. monumental effort there fellow!

all the best
Reply

titus
12-29-2010, 06:38 PM
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith - 808

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."

Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.


Source

From the Qur’an and Hadith we learn that the Ka`bah was the first House established for mankind to worship Allah. Almighty Allah says, (Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Mecca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples.) (Aal `Imran 3: 96) It is not mentioned in any verse of the Qur’an or authentic Hadith that it was built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him).
Some commentators of the Qur’an say that it was first built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him) and some others say that it was first built by the angels on this earth.


Source

The Black Stone has been around since the time of Adam, according to this Hadith, and some believe that Adam built the Kaaba for it. That is why I made the comment about Adam and Eve. I understand your getting information about Christianity wrong but I didn't expect you to be so ignorant of Islam.
To think I was actually going to go through all the names and custodians of Kaaba since it was built by Abraham (p) until it fell into pagan Arab hands to its recovery by Muslims..
You can list all you want, but what is the source of the list?
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith - 808

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas

Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "The black stone descended from Paradise whiter than milk, but the sins of the descendants of Adam made it black."

Ahmad and Tirmidhi transmitted it, the latter saying that his is a hasan sahih tradition.


Source

From the Qur’an and Hadith we learn that the Ka`bah was the first House established for mankind to worship Allah. Almighty Allah says, (Lo! the first Sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Mecca, a blessed place, a guidance to the peoples.) (Aal `Imran 3: 96) It is not mentioned in any verse of the Qur’an or authentic Hadith that it was built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him).
Some commentators of the Qur’an say that it was first built by Adam (peace and blessings be upon him) and some others say that it was first built by the angels on this earth.


Source

The Black Stone has been around since the time of Adam, according to this Hadith, and some believe that Adam built the Kaaba for it. That is why I made the comment about Adam and Eve. I understand your getting information about Christianity wrong but I didn't expect you to be so ignorant of Islam.


You can list all you want, but what is the source of the list?
He isn't talking about the 'black stone' rather the circumambulation around the ka'aba to idols.. you seem perpetually confused? Or do you want to take yourself to some ground where you feel your fifth grade education will rescue you?
Whether the house goes back to Adam or Abraham it wouldn't make a bit of a difference. However if we wish to carry the ritualistic acts themselves we can trace them back to the time of Abraham (p)

Some sources for you to browse as I don't have all day to re-write a history book for forum clowns.

1M. Mohar Ali, Sirat An Nabi vol iA pp3-31
P.K Hitti, History of the Arabs
Jawad Ali 223
OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
King James Genesis 21:10
Al bukhari Sahih Al Anbyia hadith nos 3364-65 with ibna Hajar commentary
''The city and state of Mecca '' Islamic culture vol. 12 (1938) p 258
Lammenes, la Macque A la vielle de l'Hegire pp 234-239

As for the custodians of the house
Some two hundred years prior to the birth of the prophet, Qusayy a keenly intelligent, powerful and highly administrative chieftain, ascended with the ranks of Makkaah's political scene. Taking advantage of the Byzantine interest in Makkah, he acquired their help in securing full control of the city while successfully remaining outside Byzantine Influence and neglecting regional interest.

Qusayy (365) ce>>>>>>> Abu Manaf>>>>>>> Hashim>>>>>>>Abdulmutlib >>>>>>>>>>>Muhammad..

if people are interested in how paganism started after Abraham to the later pagan Arab custodians I have no reservations sharing that at a later time.

As for our dear atheist friend.. what sources are sufficient for you? We're not talking about black stones not that the stone bears any importance religiously or/spiritually-- it is in fact used as a point of origin for one to count their journey around. However, we're merely questioning the logic or lack thereof of a a fundie who prefers to bring everything down to his low common denominator outside of recorded history so that we'd all be equal in folly!
Try to make a habit of reading the posts before jumping to the aid of man worshiping fundies or introducing your desired bits into the topic or say nothing all together, it might be better than proving yourself a meandering fool!

all the best
Reply

titus
12-29-2010, 10:05 PM
He isn't talking about the 'black stone' rather the circumambulation around the ka'aba to idols.. you seem perpetually confused? Or do you want to take yourself to some ground where you feel your fifth grade education will rescue you?
The pagans used the stone as part of their worship. It was not inconsequential to their beliefs. Are you not aware of this? Is this news to you?

OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
King James Genesis 21:10
Genesis 21 is about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, not Noah or Shem. It has nothing to do with the Kaaba anyway.

As for our dear atheist friend.. what sources are sufficient for you?
To show that the Kaaba did not start as a pagan place of worship? Give me any non-Muslim source that states that and we can go from there. Non-Muslim would include any documentation from before the time of Mohammad.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by titus
The pagans used the stone as part of their worship. It was not inconsequential to their beliefs. Are you not aware of this? Is this news to you?
what does this have to do with:
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Why it would be like observing that once in ancient times the Arabs used to engage in an annual pilgrimage to Mecca where they would walk around the Kabah in which idols had been placed and thereby somehow arrive at the conclusion that because of the similarity of some of these practices that anything that today resembled that practice must be of pagan origin.
or Islamic beliefs?
Genesis 21 is about Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, not Noah or Shem. It has nothing to do with the Kaaba anyway.
As you can see the sources I have listed are one by one:
1-1M. Mohar Ali, Sirat An Nabi vol iA pp3-31
2-P.K Hitti, History of the Arabs
3-Jawad Ali 223
4-OT declares Arabs and Jews Descendants of Shem son of Noah
5-King James Genesis 21:10
6-Al bukhari Sahih Al Anbyia hadith nos 3364-65 with ibna Hajar commentary
7-''The city and state of Mecca '' Islamic culture vol. 12 (1938) p 258
8-Lammenes, la Macque A la vielle de l'Hegire pp 234-239

therefore the king James 20:10 speaks of the sons of Abraham unrelated to the OT declaring Arabs and Jews descendants of Shem that preceded IT number (4) .. are you clutching on to straws? I have stated that I don't have the time to quote an entire book so I'll give all the referenced sources to complete a full historical reference. If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how it originated then by all means share it!


To show that the Kaaba did not start as a pagan place of worship? Give me any non-Muslim source that states that and we can go from there. Non-Muslim would include any documentation from before the time of Mohammad.
I have no idea what this mean do see my previous paragraph or rather let me re-quote it as you get easily confused!

If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how the rituals originated then by all means share it!
Reply

titus
12-29-2010, 11:21 PM
what does this have to do with:
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Why it would be like observing that once in ancient times the Arabs used to engage in an annual pilgrimage to Mecca where they would walk around the Kabah in which idols had been placed and thereby somehow arrive at the conclusion that because of the similarity of some of these practices that anything that today resembled that practice must be of pagan origin.
or Islamic beliefs?
If you don't know what the black stone or the Kaaba has to do with pagan rituals of the past or Islamic beliefs then I simply suggest you read more.
therefore the king James 20:10 speaks of the sons of Abraham unrelated to the OT declaring Arabs and Jews descendants of Shem that preceded IT number (4) .. are you clutching on to straws? I have stated that I don't have the time to quote an entire book so I'll give all the referenced sources to complete a full historical reference. If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how it originated then by all means share it!
So you are stating that the OT is accurate?

Regardless, I still have yet to see how any of those sources show that the Kaaba or the black stone were part of an Islamic tradition before they were part of a pagan one.

If you have an original source universally accepted and taught in universities that states the Kaa'ba was built by pagans and that is how the rituals originated then by all means share it!
I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by titus
If you don't know what the black stone or the Kaaba has to do with pagan rituals of the past or Islamic beliefs then I simply suggest you read more.
If you don't know what this topic is about or have an otherwise accurate chronological historical events of its origination then I simply suggest you read more.. and in fact perhaps that will also help you stick with the topic at hand in lieu of injecting it with nonsense and then wasting everyone's time as you try to extricate yourself from your foolishness!
So you are stating that the OT is accurate?
We're not looking at the OT from a religious point of view rather a historical one. If these are the history books you've around then that is what you use.. again, I invite you if you have something of substance and historical accuracy to share then please do, or quit wasting my time!

Regardless, I still have yet to see how any of those sources show that the Kaaba or the black stone were part of an Islamic tradition before they were part of a pagan one.
Once you read them come and argue this point- don't ask for sources only to dismiss because you're too lazy to do some serious work, and the only thing you can hope to gain out of this exercise in futility is to somehow make comparable oranges and apples, when you subscribe to neither and worse yet have zero knowledge of both!


I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?
Prove it.. Show me the name and date that of that first Arab pagan who built the Kaaba and from accurate historical used by university sources and we can lay this to rest!.. you'll forgive me but you knowing of nobody or knowing somebody doesn't have much weightiness in the scheme of things. Either put up or shut up!

all the best
Reply

Insaanah
12-29-2010, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I know of nobody that disagrees that the Kaaba was once used by pagans. I have never seen a non-Muslim source, though, that claims that it was used by Muslims before the pagans used it, which you claim. My belief, and the belief of many, is that Mohammad simply adapted some pagan worship rituals to his new religion (much as you denigrate Christians for doing). Can you come up with any historical evidence that contradicts that?
We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs. As a Christian (if you are one), you may rely on Hindu sources to substantiate your beliefs, but we don't rely on non-Muslim sources to substantiate ours. The onus is on you to provide your evidence for the allegation that you are making that the ka'bah was originally built to be a pagan place of worship.

Peace.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2010, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs. As a Christian (if you are one), you may rely on Hindu sources to substantiate your beliefs, but we don't rely on non-Muslim sources to substantiate ours. The onus is on you to provide your evidence for the allegation that you are making that the ka'bah started off as a pagan place of worship. Peace.

fact is I have given him a list of sources not all of them Islamic and names of custodians of the Ka'aaba, something he has been unable to do outside of throwing his baseless assertions to defend something he doesn't even believe in and not out of principal (I'd have found that admirable) but out of a desire to be some sort of deus ex machina to our forum fundie!

:w:
Reply

titus
12-30-2010, 03:58 AM
We don't need to. You are the one making the allegation. We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs.
Exactly my point.
fact is I have given him a list of sources not all of them Islamic and names of custodians of the Ka'aaba, something he has been unable to do outside of throwing his baseless assertions to defend something he doesn't even believe in and not out of principal (I'd have found that admirable) but out of a desire to be some sort of deus ex machina to our forum fundie!
All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.
Reply

جوري
12-30-2010, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Exactly my point.
You have NO point and worse yet unwilling to read if what is written contradicts your delusions!

All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.
All I am asking is for a credible historical source that says the Kaaba was originally Pagan. If it doesn't exist then just say so!

all the best
Reply

جوري
12-30-2010, 04:21 AM
To get back on track and outside of our dear friend's embarrassing hiccups:
if we are to look exclusively at our religious books:

Paran in the Bible is Mecca today:
The sections of this article are:
1- Paran in the Bible is Mecca today.
2- Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran.
3- Mecca, Bacca and Paran.
4- More Verses on Paran.
5- Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca.
6- Paul in the book of Galatians and the most recent Archeological Discoveries
suggest that Mount Sinai is in Saudi Arabia and NOT in Egypt's Sinai desert.

7- Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today.
8- Muhammad in the Bible, (Isaiah 60), Pilgrimage to Mecca..!
9- References/Links.
In this article I will prove that "Paran" in the Bible is indeed referring to the city or the region of Mecca in Saudi Arabia today, where Prophet Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was born
and received the Divine Revelations of Islam.

Important Note:
After finishing this article, please also visit:


Abraham peace be upon him sent Hagar and Ishmael to Paran:
Let us look at the following Verses: "Then God opened her [Hagar] eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer. While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt. At that time Abimelech and Phicol the commander of his forces said to Abraham, "God is with you in everything you do. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:19-22)"
Hagar was an Arab. Abraham peace be upon him had Ishmael from her, who was 13 years older than Issac. After Sarah, Abraham's wife gave birth to Issac, Abraham decided to let Hagar and her son Ishmael go. He sent to the desert of Arabia in the region of Paran.
Then GOD Almighty promised Ishmael that from him, He will increase his numbers and make from him a great nation, the Arab nation; "And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 17:20)"
The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.' (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"
Kedar came from Ishmael; "These are the names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah: These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations. Kedar and Ancient Arabs (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 25:13)" The Arabian desert region was named after Kedar. See the second map below.






The Ishmaelites were Arabs and not Egyptians. They came from the Arabian desert; "As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their way to take them down to Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 37:25)" "take them down to Egypt" means taking them to the land of Egypt. It doesn't mean taking them toward the south direction. When for instance you say "my house is right down the street", it doesn't mean the house is south of the street. The house could be on the north side. The sentence means that the house is on the street, or will be found if the person walks in the path that you lead him to.
The point however in the above Verse is that the Ishmaelites were not from Egypt. They came from another land. They had loaded camels and they were heading to Egypt. Arabs used to rely heavily on camels for traveling. And as we've seen from the above Verses regarding Ishmael and his Mother (Hagar) living in the desert of Paran in the South, this clearly proves to us that the desert of Paran is located in Arabia and not in Egypt, since the Ishmaelites are not Egyptians.

Mecca, Bacca and Paran:
Let me paste for you the following Verses from the Bible and the Noble Quran:
"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools. (From the NIV Bible, Psalms 84:5-6)"

"The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings: In it are signs manifest; (for example) the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith Allah stands not in need of any of his creatures. (The Noble Quran, 3:96-97)"

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (From the NIV Bible, Genesis 21:17-21)"

More Verses on Paran:
"Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 10:12)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 12:16)" Here the desert of Paran means the region of Paran, which would be either at or near Mecca.
"So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites. (From the NIV Bible, Numbers 13:3)"
"These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel in the desert east of the Jordan--that is, in the Arabah--opposite Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 1:1)"

Kaabah (the cube black building in Mecca) and Mecca:
Atharva Veda X, 2, Mantras 28 and 31
28. Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there.
31. This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light.
The Ka'bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length. The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka'abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.
The holy sanctuary (Haram) has remained unconquerable. Abraha al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka'bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka'bah. By Allah's Command, the 'Abaabeel' (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha's army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle.
This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur'an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as 'The year of the Elephant,' and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.
Source

The hajj is commanded in the Qur'an - "And pilgrimage to the House is a duty unto God for mankind, for him who can find the way thither" (3:97) - and its rites were established by Muhammad, but Muslim tradition dates it back to Adam and Abraham, who were instructed by angels in the performance of the rites. The hajj was one of the last public acts of worship performed by Muhammad before his death.
In part, the hajj commemorates the stories of Abraham, Hagar and Ishmael and it has been assigned various other meanings throughout the centuries. For many Muslims, one of the most meaningful aspects of the pilgrimmage is the unifying effect of bringing together believers from all over the world to meet and worship together.
Upon arrival at the boundary of Mecca (about six miles from the Ka'ba), pilgrims enter the state of ihram (purity) in which they will remain throughout the hajj. Males entering this pure state don the ihram garments - two white, seamless sheets wrapped around the body - and sandals. This aspect of the rite not only signifies the state of holiness the pilgrims have entered, but it serves to contribute to a sense of equality and unity by removing visual indicators of class, wealth and culture. Requirements for women are less stringent, but they usually dress in white with only faces and hands uncovered. While in the state of ihram, pilgrims must not cut their nails or hair, engage in sexual relations, argue, fight or hunt.
When he or she enters the city of Mecca, the pilgrim first walks around the Ka'ba seven times (the tawaf, or circumambulation) while reciting the talbiya, then kisses or touches the Black Stone in the Ka'ba, prays twice towards the Station of Abraham and the Ka'ba and runs seven times between the small mountains of Safa and Marwa.
The second stage of the hajj takes place between the 8th and 12th days of Dhu al-Hijja, beginning with a sermon (khutba) at the mosque on the 7th day. On the eighth day and night, the pilgrim stays at Mina or Arafat. On the ninth day, the ritual of wuquf ("standing") takes place at the small hill of Jabal al-Rahma in Arafat. The pilgrim then returns to Muzdalifa, a small town within the Meccan boundaries, to stay the night.
The tenth day is Eid al-Adha (The Feast of Sacrifice), a major holiday observed by all Muslims. For those participating in the hajj, the day is spent in Mina, where the pilgrim sacrifices an animal to commemorate Abraham's sacrifice and throws seven small stones at each of three pillars on three consecutive days (the pillars represent sins and devils). The pilgrim then returns to Mecca, where he or she once again performs the tawaf (circumambulation of the Ka'ba). The head is then shaved or the hair is trimmed, which marks the end of the state of ihram.
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/p...pilgrimage.htm

So with that Seeker, go ahead and show me in your scriptures where Jesus (p) dispels the myth that his birthday the alleged 25th is NOT a pagan practice, and where he specifically states also from the bible, go ahead and celebrate my birth on the 25th. put up trees and lie to children that a santa clause exists..

I'll be waiting!

all the best
Reply

Ramadhan
12-30-2010, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I don't care what their origins were. The only thing I care about is what we currently make of them.
of course you don't. No surprise there. That's why you are still a christian.
How many christians today who actually care about the actual origin of christianity, the idea of god who died to pay off men's sins, and the pagan worships and idol worships?
Once they question it, they will become agnostics or atheists (just like what's happening in the western countries), or if they come with the true message of islam, they will revert.

Originally Posted by titus
Think of, oh say..... potatoes. Potatoes are grown in the ground and their growth is often aided with manure. Despite where they come from, though, I know that once I get hold of it it turns into something tasty.
LOL.
I am amused at christians tendency to create analogies to explain christian concepts.
This potato thing is new to me :)
Christmas as a potato in the ground who grew because of manure?
;D
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-30-2010, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah

We rely on sources inside Islam, not outside, for our beliefs.
If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
12-30-2010, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.
We don't need any other sources apart from the Bible itself to prove that Jesus is NOT the son of God. NO where in the Bible does Jesus state to worship him nor is there any mention of the pagan origins of trinitarian beliefs which were established several hundred years after the death of Jesus (Peace be upon him).

We worship GOD Almighty in the direction of His Grand Temple/House. We never worship the Temple/House itself. The Bible's Prophets in the Bible also had a "House of GOD Almighty" that they worshiped Him in. Also, the Jews' wailing wall today is a similar example to the Muslims' Kaaba, where the Jews pray to GOD Almighty facing the wall. The Bible also says:

"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

GOD Almighty's Holy Temple in Islam is the Kaaba in Mecca.

"Behold! We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying): 'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"

As we clearly see, the "House of GOD" Almighty is mentioned in both the Bible and the Noble Quran. The Prostration to GOD Almighty in either His House or in the direction of His House (if you live far away) is the most proper way of Worship according to both the Bible and the Noble Quran.

As we also clearly see, the House of GOD Almighty was mentioned in the Bible first. The Kaba or Kaaba (the black cube building in Saudi Arabia) is basically the symbolic point on earth (His House) that GOD Almighty Chose to have all of His True Believers meet Him through bowing down their faces in humility down to the ground before Him.

The actual bricks and cement that make up the Kaaba are not holy.

Some anti-Islamics tried to compare the Muslims' bowing towards the Kaaba to the hindus' deification and glorification of their stones, by making idol gods and holy temples for these gods out of them. Islam is far from this!

The hindus glorification of stones and rocks is not Islamic. We do not worship neither the Kaaba nor the black stone. In fact Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said in his famous saying that:

لهدم الكعبة حجراً حجراً أهون من قتل المسلم‏

"Demolishing the Kaaba completely is much more preferred to Allah Almighty than shedding the blood of a Believing Muslim."!

Why should this be of any surprise, when Allah Almighty had brought down all of the Angels under the feet of the human-believers when He commanded them to bow down to Adam?

So no, we do not worship rocks and stones.

So when Muslims prostrate to Allah Almighty, they prostrate in the direction that is as close as possible to Him. It was also prophesied in the Noble Quran that people from all over the world would come to the city of Mecca (where the Kaaba is located) for pilgrimage.

Please visit: The detailed story of how the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael peace be upon them.

During the early days of Islam, the Muslims were commanded to bow down to Allah Almighty in the direction of the Farthest Mosque (Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa) in Jerusalem, because it was the Holiest Mosque/Temple to worship Allah Almighty in back since it was not defiled with idols. Allah Almighty then commanded Prophet Muhammad to order the Muslims to prostrate to Allah Almighty in the direction of the Kaaba in Mecca, because it was the House of GOD Almighty which was built by Prophet Abraham peace be upon him (mentioned also in the Bible), and because after the Muslims liberated Mecca in a 10,000 men army (this event was prophesied in the Bible), they cleaned the Kaaba from all idols.

Even Jesus, peace be upon him, bowed down to Allah Almighty the Islamic way:

"Going a little farther, he [Jesus] fell with his face to the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.' (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 26:39)"

When Muslims bow down to Allah Almighty in worship at their homes, they do not for instance bow down to the sofa, or to the pair of shoes, or to the table, or to the wall, or to the door, or to the TV, or to any object that is in front of them in their homes. They bow down to Allah Almighty only, regardless what's in front of them AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT WORSHIPING THAT OBJECT. The Kaaba is the same thing. We do not bow down to it in worship in any shape or form. We bow down only to Allah Almighty in its direction because it is His Appointed House where He symbolically meets His Servants and True Believers.

The Kaaba makes the millions of Muslims all over the world Pray to Allah Almighty as one unified community.

To read more on this topic check out this link:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/que11.htm


To read more on how the Kaaba was built by Abraham and his son Ishmael peace be upon them.

http://www.answering-christianity.co..._the_kaaba.htm
Reply

جوري
12-30-2010, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
If you are going to only rely on Muslim sources for your beliefs, then you will surely have no objection and find it completely consistent that Christians do not rely on the non-Christian sources that Muslims use to try to denegrate Christianity.

we rely on logic first and foremost.. BTW still waiting for those christian sources where Jesus professes his birth on the 25th and gives you the OK to celebrate it, plus dispels the myth that it is pagan in origin!

all the best
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
12-30-2010, 05:15 PM
The Bible forbade making images of GOD Almighty!

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

Today in the Churches we see the very thing that Jesus came to eradicate and that is man worshipping idols than worshipping the creator himself.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

Then worship one lord and forsake worshipping the creations of God the very thing that ALL the Prophets of God tried to forbid.

God says in the Qur'an concerning this false belief:

"And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. (The Noble Quran, 5:116)"

"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs. (The Noble Quran, 4:171)"

So worship ONE GOD:

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

Jesus was no creator, and even your very own corrupted New Testament proves it .

Need I also remind you that Jesus did not know when the Hour would come? "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. (From the NIV Bible, Matthew 24:36)"

The truth will always prevail over falsehood and it is clear for all to see!
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
12-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Exactly my point.


All I am asking for is a non-Islamic source that says that the Kaaba was originally Muslim. If it doesn't exist then just say so.
Why would we need to prove something that is not disputed at all to you? You came with a false allegation using anti Islamic websites so prove your false allegations using Islamic sources. If you can't then why have you dug yourself into a hole that you can't get out of? Next time if you start something then make sure you can also finish it to.

You have already made your intentions for being in this forum very clear for all to see. You have stated that it is only Muslims that believe the Kaba to be originally Muslim. That is because our sources prove it without doubt but the fact that you clearly ignore what Islam says about a matter proves that you are not here to learn the Islamic position on anything but that you will continue to blindly refer to anti Islamic websites regardless. You have just proved your purpose of being here for all to see.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
12-30-2010, 07:24 PM
The fact is Christian scholars do NOT dispute the fact that Christmas including everything related to it originate from Paganism. NO where in the Bible does Jesus say when his birthdate is and he NEVER stated anywhere to actually celebrate his birth in the first place. So like most aspects of Christianity Christmas was created a long time after the death of Jesus (Peace be upon him).

Christianity hijacked Pagan festivals and rituals:Whose Christmas is it anyway?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...tmas/37276.stm

Therefore it is clear that Christmas has NOTHING at all to do with Christianity or the birth of Jesus but it has been established through hijacking pagan events and rituals and is now a commercial event.

This thread has now run its course and is therefore closed.
Reply

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