Silence = Support

[Thinker]

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence. And I am sure that is true of all western countries. And I am sure that the majority of Muslim members here would agree. A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

Someone has just set off a car bomb outside a Christian church in Egypt killing 21+. This is not the first occasion this has happened in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere and I am sure that the majority here will condemn the act saying that it is contrary to the teachings of Islam and quoting the no compulsion verse.

My question is this – why am I, a non-Muslim, posting this thread; why is a Muslim not posting it and calling for others to raise their voices in condemnation? Is it because, as I believe, that you cannot bring yourself to criticise such acts? Is it not the case that Islam teaches (or at least encourages) that Muslims must support other Muslims (and silence is support) simply because they are Muslim and the act was perpetrated against non-Muslims?

'The Muslim is the brother of Muslim he neither oppresses him, nor does he fail him.." (Muslim).

"Whoever protects the honour of his brother, Allah will protect his face from hell on the Day of Judgment." (Ahmad and Tirmidhi).

"Help your brother whether he is the oppressor or the oppressed" [Bukhari, Muslim]

[Alpha Dude]

I condemn this bombing. I'm sure the Muslims here do too. However, your post is so unfairly presumptious, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

For one thing, it's hardly been 24 hours since it happened (I don't even know the time it went off, was it past midnight GMT?) and most likely members haven't even heard about it yet (I hadn't until I read your thread).

Secondly, are you really expecting every man, woman and child of the 1+ billion Muslims all around to shout out collectively each time a Muslim does something wrong in the name of Islam? How much is enough? Do you have a quota which needs satisfying?

Thirdly, there are many voices speaking out and they do so each time something bad happens. It just depends if you are open to listening.

Fourthly, the fact that you would have the audacity to assume straight away that silence (after hardly giving anyone a chance to speak up in the first place) = support reflects your true bigoted nature. I suppose you'll be eyeing every single Muslim in this world with suspicion.

Fifthly, you prove once again that you are a troll.

[aamirsaab]

If I hear/read about any sort of crime (whoever commits it), of course I condemn it. But does that mean I have to get a megaphone or make a youtube vid announcing my condemnation to the world? Do you, personally, need to actually hear my condemnation for it to count? From your post and general attitude, it certainly looks that way.

Also, good job at completely missing the point of those hadiths.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

didnt the car bomb go off in iraq not eygpt?

and whatever the case is, there are many reasons for silence. since when and how did you possibly conclude that it = support. rather far fetched if you ask me.

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[Alpha Dude]

But does that mean I have to get a megaphone or make a youtube vid announcing my condemnation to the world?

Even if we did this, I bet he'd just turn around and accuse us of using the shia concept of 'taqiyya'. Can't win either way.

[Rafeeq]

Muslim masses always condemn such acts by so-called muslims but media always portray what suites it.

We do not consider a person muslim who is involve in such issues. At this point, another question arises, how many christians rises their voices when innocent Iraqis and Afghanis were killed. Who condemned the statement of G. Bush declaring crucified war against Afghanistan.

I see, till my post who ever posted, is condemning that act, what else you guys need.

[جوري]

Robert Fisk: Seen through a Syrian lens, 'unknown Americans' are provoking civil war in Iraq


Friday, 28 April 2006



In Syria, the world appears through a glass, darkly. As dark as the smoked windows of the car which takes me to a building on the western side of Damascus where a man I have known for 15 years - we shall call him a "security source", which is the name given by American correspondents to their own powerful intelligence officers - waits with his own ferocious narrative of disaster in Iraq and dangers in the Middle East.
His is a fearful portrait of an America trapped in the bloody sands of Iraq, desperately trying to provoke a civil war around Baghdad in order to reduce its own military casualties. It is a scenario in which Saddam Hussein remains Washington's best friend, in which Syria has struck at the Iraqi insurgents with a ruthlessness that the United States wilfully ignores. And in which Syria's Interior Minister, found shot dead in his office last year, committed suicide because of his own mental instability.
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The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces. "I swear to you that we have very good information," my source says, finger stabbing the air in front of him. "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."
Impossible, I think to myself. But then I remember how many times Iraqis in Baghdad have told me similar stories. These reports are believed even if they seem unbelievable. And I know where much of the Syrian information is gleaned: from the tens of thousands of Shia Muslim pilgrims who come to pray at the Sayda Zeinab mosque outside Damascus. These men and women come from the slums of Baghdad, Hillah and Iskandariyah as well as the cities of Najaf and Basra. Sunnis from Fallujah and Ramadi also visit Damascus to see friends and relatives and talk freely of American tactics in Iraq.
"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."
Just who these "Americans" might be, my source did not say. In the anarchic and panic-stricken world of Iraq, there are many US groups - including countless outfits supposedly working for the American military and the new Western-backed Iraqi Interior Ministry - who operate outside any laws or rules. No one can account for the murder of 191 university teachers and professors since the 2003 invasion - nor the fact that more than 50 former Iraqi fighter-bomber pilots who attacked Iran in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have been assassinated in their home towns in Iraq in the past three years.
Amid this chaos, a colleague of my source asked me, how could Syria be expected to lessen the number of attacks on Americans inside Iraq? "It was never safe, our border," he said. "During Saddam's time, criminals and Saddam's terrorists crossed our borders to attack our government. I built a wall of earth and sand along the border at that time. But three car bombs from Saddam's agents exploded in Damascus and Tartous- I was the one who captured the criminals responsible. But we couldn't stop them."
Now, he told me, the rampart running for hundreds of miles along Syria's border with Iraq had been heightened. "I have had barbed wire put on top and up to now we have caught 1,500 non-Syrian and non-Iraqi Arabs trying to cross and we have stopped 2,700 Syrians from crossing ... Our army is there - but the Iraqi army and the Americans are not there on the other side."
Behind these grave suspicions in Damascus lies the memory of Saddam's long friendship with the United States. "Our Hafez el-Assad [the former Syrian president who died in 2000] learnt that Saddam, in his early days, met with American officials 20 times in four weeks. This convinced Assad that, in his words, 'Saddam is with the Americans'. Saddam was the biggest helper of the Americans in the Middle East (when he attacked Iran in 1980) after the fall of the Shah. And he still is! After all, he brought the Americans to Iraq!"
So I turn to a story which is more distressing for my sources: the death by shooting of Brigadier General Ghazi Kenaan, former head of Syrian military intelligence in Lebanon - an awesomely powerful position - and Syrian Minister of Interior when his suicide was announced by the Damascus government last year.
Widespread rumours outside Syria suggested that Kenaan was suspected by UN investigators of involvement in the murder of the former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri in a massive car bomb in Beirut last year - and that he had been "suicided" by Syrian government agents to prevent him telling the truth.
Not so, insisted my original interlocutor. "General Ghazi was a man who believed he could give orders and anything he wanted would happen. Something happened that he could not reconcile - something that made him realise he was not all-powerful. On the day of his death, he went to his office at the Interior Ministry and then he left and went home for half an hour. Then he came back with a pistol. He left a message for his wife in which he said goodbye to her and asked her to look after their children and he said that what he was going to do was 'for the good of Syria'. Then he shot himself in the mouth."
Of Hariri's assassination, Syrian officials like to recall his relationship with the former Iraqi interim prime minister Iyad Alawi - a self-confessed former agent for the CIA and MI6 - and an alleged $20bn arms deal between the Russians and Saudi Arabia in which they claim Hariri was involved.
Hariri's Lebanese supporters continue to dismiss the Syrian argument on the grounds that Syria had identified Hariri as the joint author with his friend, French President Jacques Chirac, of the UN Security Council resolution which demanded the retreat of the Syrians from Lebanese territory.
But if the Syrians are understandably obsessed with the American occupation of Iraq, their long hatred for Saddam - something which they shared with most Iraqis - is still intact. When I asked my first "security" source what would happen to the former Iraqi dictator, he replied, banging his fist into his hand: "He will be killed. He will be killed. He will be killed."



http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...aq-475889.html

let's find out who is behind the killing first no? People like our dear Ape here, have perfected this new type of warfare..

Are you condemning this Ape? are you even taking credit for it? Do you even know about it?

yeah, get your facts and then come asking for condemnation!

[Zafran]

Theres been plenty of terrorist attacks in Pakistan - why doesnt a non muslim post this when it happens there? Is christian blood worth more then muslim blood? where was thinker then and his thread?

what about the suicide bombings in Iraq?

what about about the drone bombings in Afghanistan that kill innocent people?

what about Gaza do non muslims take time to condenm those attacks as well and make threads like these?

But I dont see non muslims posting these types of threads when bombs go off and kill muslims - clearly they dont matter do they. Its only when its non muslim blood thats when it matters. - lets forget about the 100s of terrorists attacks before but lets focus on this one as non muslims died. Give me a break.

[جوري]

"Bakri infamously hailed the 9/11 hijackers as the "Magnificent 19"".

Like I said before celebration is universal. You have christian turds celebrating death of Muslims, and you've Jewish turds doing it too..



do a little bit more research before posting the same thing over and over ey!

[جوري]

What is amazing is that these people have lived side by side for millenniums literally.. Why all of a sudden are there christian/Muslim civil wars going on all over the middle east? Or perhaps you need to be a fully evolved ape to understand the history, politics and agenda here!

[جوري]

let NO Muslims take credit for this, this all comes in the heal of the capture of several spies working for Israel all over the middle east, one recently was captured and sentenced to death in Syria.

Israeli Spying Network” Uncovered in Egypt Days Before Church Balst

January 1, 2011 posted by Dr. Ashraf Ezzat · 11 Comments



People in Egypt don`t have to waste their time suspecting and accusing al Qaeda, ..Egyptians know better, .. they know that al Qaeda is a joke, …they only point the finger at Israel, the one implacable enemy who happened to be the conspirator behind destabilizing Iraq and the whole region.

By Dr. Ashraf Ezzat / Staff Writer

What kind of images come to your mind whenever Egypt is mentioned? To a lot of people Egypt is automatically associated with the pyramids, the river Nile and the historical monuments of the great pharaohs. But modern Egypt is a lot more than just a world tourist attraction. Egypt besides the long history and culture is one of the leading nations in regard to liberation from European colonialism; the Egyptian revolution in 1952 was an inspiration to a lot of liberation movements in Africa and the Middle East.
During the era of the cold war, Egypt- with India and former Yugoslavia- initiated the non alignment movement (NAM) an intergovernmental organization of states considering themselves not aligned formally with or against any major power bloc. But the enthusiastic call for pan- Arabism was and still is- one of the most important political projects Egypt had adopted and advocated during the 1960th. The idea of Arabic union with economic, political and military collaboration is a dream all Arab peoples long for but on the other hand this project of Arabic unity is deemed a potential and clear danger to a small country in the Middle East namely, Israel.
The Egyptian policy kept changing according to the local and international variables throughout the years. Egypt transformed from a constitutional monarchy at the first half of the twentieth century, to a socialist republic during the 1950-60th and now to a state with a free market economy. Egyptians changed in so many ways, socially and economically that is, throughout the last 60 years. Egyptians vary in their political perspectives; they might as well disagree on a wide range of public issues but all Egyptians agree on one indisputable fact concerning their national security, they all view Israel as the permanent and implacable enemy.
Sometimes people get so wrapped up in nowadays news and conflicts they nearly forgot what happened during the last 60 years.
Egyptian- Israeli military conflict

October 1973 War, Egyptian troops victoriously crossing the Suez canal into Sinai peninsula

From day one to its foundation, Egypt knew very well that Israel is a real threat to its eastern strategic borders and to the whole area as well. Egypt knew that the newly implanted Zionist regime was mainly aiming to expand by illegally grabbing more of the Arabic land.
So the Arab-Israeli conflict began as an Egyptian-Israeli military confrontation for the simple fact that Egypt was the strongest and the leader nation of the Arab world not to mention that it shared borders with Israel and Palestine.
From 1948 till 1973 Egypt got into 4 wars with Israel;

• Palestine war, the brutal Israeli occupation of Palestine ( Nakba ) 1948
• The Suez war ( tripartite aggression ) was a war fought by Britain, France, and Israel against Egypt beginning on 29 October 1956.
• The six-day war in June 1967, a sneaky Israeli attack that left part of the Egyptian land- Sinai peninsula- occupied by Israel.
• October war 1973, in which the Egyptian military managed to retaliate against the humiliation of the June war and proudly put an end to the Israeli military invincibility and complacency.

The late president Anwar El Sadat of Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979 – Camp David accords- thus making Egypt the first ever Arabic nation to officially recognize Israel as a sovereign state in the Middle East and amidst the Arab world. That was a political dream Israel had been begging for through official political channels and backstage diplomacy as well.
The Camp David accords gave Israel what she wanted, Israel enjoyed peace on the long congested Egyptian front and she even enjoyed bilateral political, economical and agricultural exchange with Egypt. Israel even managed to sign a deal that allowed Egypt to supply Israel with all its needs of the natural gas through pipelines- extending all the way from Egypt to Israeli territories- which the Israeli officials called it “peace pipelines”
Israel used natural gas to replace fuel oil that powers its three major electric plants that runs its military facilities in the country as well.
Frozen peace

Celebrating the signing of the Camp David Accords: Menachem Begin, Jimmy Carter, Anwar El Sadat

One thing kept this peace treaty from being fully activated, namely the reluctance of the masses of Egyptian people to accept it, so the normalization of the bilateral relations remained virtually frozen till this very day.
The Camp David was an Egyptian political decision not a public one, consequently it remained as such. The policy makers in both countries exchanged ambassadors and delegations and often held meetings but the ice was never broken amongst Egyptians and Israelis.
Throughout the last 30 years since the signing of Camp David accords not one Egyptian journalist or artist or writer or even a college student or a professor dared- voluntarily that is- to visit or participate at any international event where Israel is an active participant.
Even more, all Israeli cultural activities, artists and products are banned from collaborating or participating at any Egyptian events like cinema and musical festivals. Israeli literature and books are banned in Egypt. This antagonist attitude is something the Israelis always complained about and tried to bring about any change to it.
For the Egyptians and most of the Arabs there was nothing peculiar about their refusal to normalize the relations with the Israelis on the cultural level for they cannot shake hands with settlers who occupied the Arabic land by brutal force. They cannot forget 60 long years of military massacres and political deception. They cannot turn a blind eye to the ongoing genocide in Palestine. They cannot forget the long history of bloodshed and grabbed land. And most of all they cannot get over the deeply embedded into the collective Arabic psyche belief that Israel is never to be trusted.
Another Israeli spy network uncovered inciting sectarian violence between Muslims & christians in Egypt

Lately, Egypt has uncovered a spy ring that included two Israelis and an Egyptian businessman suspected of collecting info on telecoms companies, and once again the days proved that 350 million people in the Arab world can’t be wrong about distrusting Israel.
“The Egyptian general prosecutor ordered the transfer of three accused persons, who included two Israeli fugitives and one detained Egyptian Tarek Abdel Aziz, to be sent for trial before the emergency state security supreme criminal court on January 15th on the charges of spying for Israel and harming the country’s national interests.
The investigations with the suspected Israeli spy revealed a lot of surprising findings;

• The Egypt-based Israeli ring had links with other Israeli espionage networks operating in Syria and Lebanon
• The Mossad was conducting covert surveillance of the phone calls of top Egyptian officials.
• Israel – in the post-Camp David era- is targeting the stability of Egypt by inciting the sectarian violence between Muslims and Christians in Egypt – … as a matter of fact, as i was editing this post a car bomb exploded in front of a churh in Alexndria (St. Mary & St. Peter church) on the new year`s eve leaving 21 killed and 80 wounded and some of the initial speculations are seriously pointing the finger at an Israeli agenda behind this terrorist attack.
• Israel was behind the mysterious cut of Egypt main internet cable- connecting Egypt to the international network in January, 2008. The cut led to millions of dollars losses to the Egyptian economy especially the tourist sector.
• The Mossad has recruited another Egyptian spy – still on the loose- who managed to infiltrate and work with the Islamists groups in Egypt.

Given the aforementioned findings one couldn’t help but to wonder why a nation that is supposed to officially be in peace terms with Egypt would act in such a disgraceful and hostile way.

Egyptian woman crying over the victims of church blast

… The answer to this perplexing question is very simple. Israel never meant peace with Egypt or any other Arabic nation…Israel doesn’t believe in peaceful coexistence, Israel only believes that it has the right to exist and the right to defend itself while denying other neighboring nations the same rights. Israel views its security and future only through destabilizing and dismantling neighboring Arab countries. And in the case of Egypt there is one evil way to destabilize the country and that is through inciting violence between the Egyptian christians (Copts ) and their fellow Muslim citizens.
What is more interesting is that Egyptians were never astounded by the news of the uncovered Israeli spy network. In a way they got used to it, this was the 15th Israeli espionage operation to be uncovered since the signing of the Camp David so called peace treaty with Israel.

The car bomb infront of the Alexandia church

And on the first day of the new year of 2011, after the deadly church blast in Alexandria, most Egyptians are growing more aware of the israeli conspiracy targetting their national unity. People in Egypt don`t have to waste their time suspecting and accusing al Qaeda, ..Egyptians know better, .. they know that al Qaeda is a joke, …they only point the finger at Israel, the one implacable enemy who happened to be the conspirator behind destabilizing Iraq and the whole region.
The Egyptian –Israeli peace treaty never changed anything. Israel is still seen as the enemy in the eyes and mind of every Egyptian. Israel is clearly seen by most arabs as the evil doer in the Middle East.
2010 witnessed a lot of Mossad covert operations in the Middle East, few of those operations were uncovered like the assassination of Palestinian Hamas leader Mahmoud Mabhouh in January in what is known as the Dubai assassination job and the uncovered spy ring based in Egypt in December. The Mossad is certainly one of Israel’s most active and highly acclaimed government agencies that comes next to its defense forces and outside lobbies on the efficiency chart.

Israel might be able to grab more Arabic grounds and incite more violence in the arabic world by covert operations, military aggression and dirty politics … but at the same time, Israel is practically losing credibility, popularity and most of all tolerability amongst the Arabic people… and those are the very same things that neither lobbying nor intelligence can win them back.
For more articles by Dr. Ashraf Ezzat visit his website
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01...-church-balst/


Don't get your information from APES!

:w:

[جوري]

clearly they dont matter do they. Its only when its non muslim blood thats when it matters

It is non-Muslim blood taken by non-Muslims.. so I am sure beyond denial they'll shut up on the matter lest they admit to a very base and disgusting form of warfare!

:w:

[Woodrow]

There are plenty of muslims who support what islam calls 'freedom fighting'!

Youtube has video of Palestinian muslims and other muslims around the world celebrating the 9/11 attack against the 'great satan' and al-Muhajiroun praise the 'magnificent 19' muslims who did it!
And unfortunately that makes more noise than the so called 'silent majority'!
Or perhaps a muslim here will denounce al-Muhajiroun and bakri?

The Finsbury Park mosque in London admits that their bretheren committed the 9/11 sneak attack, yet, "Chicagoans" claim that it was "JEWS MOSSAD".

Even the Manchester Guardian reports on the Islamist terrorist supporting, terrorism exporting mosque.
"Bakri infamously hailed the 9/11 hijackers as the "Magnificent 19"".
Bakri's announcement that he was "disbanding" al-Muhajiroun, in October 2004, was followed three months later by his warning that a "covenant of security" under which Muslims lived peacefully in Britain had been violated, both by the government's failure to accept Bin Laden's offer of a truce, and because of increasingly tough anti-terrorism measures.
Six months after that, the the 7/7 suicide bombers claimed the lives of 52 commuters. Two of the attackers are strongly suspected of having links to al-Muhajiroun, and there remains at least the suspicion that they were inspired by Bakri's pronouncement.

Do you ever watch Youtube videos like these:

CAUTION SOME OF THE VIDEOS DO CONTAIN MUSIC

[Woodrow]

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence. And I am sure that is true of all western countries. And I am sure that the majority of Muslim members here would agree. A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

Someone has just set off a car bomb outside a Christian church in Egypt killing 21+. This is not the first occasion this has happened in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere and I am sure that the majority here will condemn the act saying that it is contrary to the teachings of Islam and quoting the no compulsion verse.

My question is this – why am I, a non-Muslim, posting this thread; why is a Muslim not posting it and calling for others to raise their voices in condemnation? Is it because, as I believe, that you cannot bring yourself to criticise such acts? Is it not the case that Islam teaches (or at least encourages) that Muslims must support other Muslims (and silence is support) simply because they are Muslim and the act was perpetrated against non-Muslims?

'The Muslim is the brother of Muslim he neither oppresses him, nor does he fail him.." (Muslim).

"Whoever protects the honour of his brother, Allah will protect his face from hell on the Day of Judgment." (Ahmad and Tirmidhi).

"Help your brother whether he is the oppressor or the oppressed" [Bukhari, Muslim]

IF YOU DO A SEARCH THROUGH THE OLD THREADS YOU WILL FIND MORE THAN ONE OR 2 IN WHICH OUR MUSLIM MEMBERS HAVE CONDEMNED THE COWARDLY ACTS OF TERRORISM.

We do condemn terrorism and it has no place in Islam. Perhaps we do not often jump out here on this forum and condemn them the minute they happen. but then again many of us are cautious and do not want to post without knowing the facts. On several occasions news reports about alleged Islamic Terrorist attacks have turned out to be quite erroneous and did not involve any Muslims. Forgive us for being cautious and reluctant to condemn actions without knowing the facts. But please do not assume we are silent and do not abhor those who commit horrendous acts.

We need not be apologists and be fast to jump on the defensive. The burden of proof is for the acts to be proven as involving those who wear the name of Muslim. The burden of proof is to first show the act was done in the name of Islam. The burden of proof is to show the act was not an act of war and was not justified. Prove first it is terrorism and show us proof it was done by Muslims and then we will speak out loudly against those who misuse the name of Muslim.

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Why do American's not comdemn the Iraq/Afghan invasion? Thousands of innocents have died since the invasion, which was illegal, no weapons of mass destruction found or anything. Should I now go to a America army forum and make a thread about it? Or maybe I should go on Youtube or Google and do my research before comming to such conclusions.

Look at the Gaza strip bombings, the American media showed NONE of the horrible acts the Zionists did, why because they are their allies? So why would they show innocent Iraqi's getting killed then? So NOW, why should they show Peaceful Muslims comdemning such acts and speaking up?

The Mosques I go to are great, they don't let groups come together and have secret meetings in the corner of the room without inquiring about the subject. There's always Muslims that are doing their bit to bring the real peaceful message of Islam out, but YOU won't let them, so now YOUR complaining about them? And it doesn't help when the Media is constantly throwing all this false and negative propoganda at us either, which completly distorts the public view of what Islam is and they automatically don't want to listen to what we have to say.

You need to understand that the problem isn't from our end it's from yours, you need to do more yourself otherwise our efforts are wasted.

[Maryan0]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Why do American's not comdemn the Iraq/Afghan invasion? Thousands of innocents have died since the invasion, which was illegal, no weapons of mass destruction found or anything. Should I now go to a America army forum and make a thread about it? Or maybe I should go on Youtube or Google and do my research before comming to such conclusions.

We Muslims are supposed to condemn the acts committed by one elusive group after another but they don't even have the decency to properly condemn the acts committed by their leaders under their flags and by their soldiers. Other than make idiotic statments like the war in afghanistan was wrong but do you know the taliban arent really afghans? or the Iraq invasion was wrong but do you know Saddam was a tyrant? ^o). You would think that thousands of people being killed and millions displaced by the governments that represent them would warrant some anger or even fear that so many are seeing them as evil warmongers that indiscriminately bomb people and that these same people will most likely grow up to hate them and want their destruction. I don't know if they are evil desensitized people or of they really are just that dense. I think its the latter.:hmm:. I dont believe al Qaeda or any other "mysterious" group represent Muslims in the same way the American or other western governments represent their people.
Salam

[Perseveranze]

We Muslims are supposed to condemn the acts committed by one elusive group after another but they don't even have the decency to properly condemn the acts committed by their leaders under their flags and by their soldiers. Other than make idiotic statments like the war in afghanistan was wrong but do you know the taliban arent really afghans? or the Iraq invasion was wrong but do you know Saddam was a tyrant? ^o). You would think that thousands of people being killed and millions displaced by the governments that represent them would warrant some anger or even fear that so many are seeing them as evil warmongers that indiscriminately bomb people and that these same people will most likely grow up to hate them and want their destruction. I don't know if they are evil desensitized people or of they really are just that dense. I think its the latter.:hmm:. I dont believe al Qaeda or any other "mysterious" group represent Muslims in the same way the American or other western governments represent their people.
Salam

Asalaamu Alaikum,

At the end of the day, the invasion was illegal and it was stemmed on the accusation that Iraq had "weapons of mass destruction". I suggest you watch this;



American's naturally don't support the war, it only leads to innocent people dying from BOTH ends, just like Muslims don't support Terrorists or any form of innocent killing. I'm just saying, people need to stop being hypocrites, like the accusations on this thread.

ps. Americans made Taliban.

[glo]

But I dont see non muslims posting these types of threads when bombs go off and kill muslims - clearly they dont matter do they. Its only when its non muslim blood thats when it matters. - lets forget about the 100s of terrorists attacks before but lets focus on this one as non muslims died. Give me a break.

Actually, I take Thinker's point. I think it is really important to speak out against such atrocities - as publically as possible and whenever we hear about them.
How else will other people learn and understand how we feel about such things and that we don't condone them?
How else will misinformed non-Muslims learn that most Muslims do not condone such acts?

Perhaps there is a problem with the media being more likely to report terrorist attacks against non-Muslims than against Muslims, but I always try to speak out against ALL kind of terrorism against ALL people!

Of course Muslims matter, Zafran! All people do!
Nobody's innocent blood should be spilled - ever!! :cry:

[Thinker]

Without picking out lines from individual posts here that do not do that, I will try to purse to point I am trying to make.

First, my post presumes that Muslims, particularly Muslims living in the west, want their non Muslim neighbours to believe that they want peace and that they condemn unequivocaly acts of terrorism. And I ask the question (and it has been asked many times my many others) why don’t you step forward and shout it out.

Some of you respond with the question why should you have to do that particularly when Muslims are being killed by western soldiers? That sort of response is (IMHO) tacit support and as my posts suggests an inability to condemn the acts of another Musim simply because he is Muslim. Your response should (IMHO) be absolute, unequivocal and unconditional condemnation.

I would argue that none of those (western) soldiers want to be in Afghanistan etc and none of their governments want them there but when you have some countries and some parts of countries where there is no law and order and where terrorist are trained to be sent to the west to kill you will get a reaction and if the situation was reveresed Muslims would do the same. And, what about the non Muslim soliders who died in Yugoslavia fighting to protect the Muslims there, why is there never any mention of them?

It is a fact that there are several Muslim countries where Muslims are routinely killed simply for following another religion and this is happening more and more frequently.

There was a post in a thread on this forum sone years back from a Muslimah who described how a father raised his sons to go and fight the infidels in their Muslim homeland, I responded “why doesn’t the father go and fight and die and save his sons” my post was deleted, hers wasn’t. And I have seen many posts here from members criticing other Muslim members for criticising the acts of Musolim terrorists. Hence I ask the question, is that a requirment of Islam / the ummah?

You have choice, when these acts occur you either run to the nearest megaphone to condemn them or you will be accused of staying silent and that will be preceived (by you non Muslim neighbour) as tacit support.

Does it come down to this – what is more important to you; what your neighbour thinks of you or what your Muslim brother thinks of you? Isn’t that what it’s all about – unquestioned loyalty to the ummah?

[جوري]

Without picking out lines from individual posts here that do not do that, I will try to purse to point I am trying to make.

You like dropping stench without cleaning up after yourself or acknowledging your stench is the point you so often make, I understand!

First, my post presumes that Muslims, particularly Muslims living in the west, want their non Muslim neighbours to believe that they want peace and that they condemn unequivocaly acts of terrorism. And I ask the question (and it has been asked many times my many others) why don’t you step forward and shout it out.

Simple. We don't believe Muslims are responsible for such acts- have you been reading all that is posted and more than one source? Have you actually surveyed the Egyptians on their thoughts on the matter or read Egyptian newspapers?

Some of you respond with the question why should you have to do that particularly when Muslims are being killed by western soldiers? That sort of response is (IMHO) tacit support and as my posts suggests an inability to condemn the acts of another Musim simply because he is Muslim. Your response should (IMHO) be absolute, unequivocal and unconditional condemnation.

See previous response and do try to read all the posts not simply pick the answers you're seeking!

I would argue that none of those (western) soldiers want to be in Afghanistan etc and none of their governments want them there but when you have some countries and some parts of countries where there is no law and order and where terrorist are trained to be sent to the west to kill you will get a reaction and if the situation was reveresed Muslims would do the same. And, what about the non Muslim soliders who died in Yugoslavia fighting to protect the Muslims there, why is there never any mention of them?

Why be there if they don't want to be there?
why kill civilians under the guise or ridding the world of terrorism and lastly why collect civilian body parts as souvenirs?
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/09/09/us...ill-souvenirs/
and then try every low base political warfare to point such people as deserving of decade long wars. May it bring destruction, bankruptcy and misery on folks such as your person for your support, endorsement and propagation of the lies of it!

It is a fact that there are several Muslim countries where Muslims are routinely killed simply for following another religion and this is happening more and more frequently.

Is it a fact-- who is behind the killing.. do you bother investigate?

There was a post in a thread on this forum sone years back from a Muslimah who described how a father raised his sons to go and fight the infidels in their Muslim homeland, I responded “why doesn’t the father go and fight and die and save his sons” my post was deleted, hers wasn’t. And I have seen many posts here from members criticing other Muslim members for criticising the acts of Musolim terrorists. Hence I ask the question, is that a requirment of Islam / the ummah?

You've established yourself an under-educated hypocrite, I doubt your posts are deleted for the reasons you imagine and not some sensationalist bull **** propaganda the sort you so often spew!

You have choice, when these acts occur you either run to the nearest megaphone to condemn them or you will be accused of staying silent and that will be preceived (by you non Muslim neighbour) as tacit support.

No one cares what apes like you think or believe. Corporate news is made to cater to your off the turnip truck herd mentality anyway.. there is no reason for everyone to jump on your bandwagon just because you're so irate while mooching off your own neighbors!

Does it come down to this – what is more important to you; what your neighbour thinks of you or what your Muslim brother thinks of you? Isn’t that what it’s all about – unquestioned loyalty to the ummah?

What anyone thinks doesn't matter, and it isn't what it comes down to, unless you're some puerile ape on the playground. Justice and truth is all that should matter!

now take a hike!

[Dagless]

......

Theres been plenty of terrorist attacks in Pakistan - why doesnt a non muslim post this when it happens there?

^This.

[aadil77]

Hence I ask the question, is that a requirment of Islam / the ummah?

This is the requirement of islam:

O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done. Qur'an 49:6

We do not trust news regarding muslim bomb attacks, from the same countries that are at war with us, even if that includes certain muslim countries.

Does it come down to this – what is more important to you; what your neighbour thinks of you or what your Muslim brother thinks of you? Isn’t that what it’s all about – unquestioned loyalty to the ummah?

We don't care what anyone thinks of us, all you have to do is open up the Qu'ran and you'll get your answers

[Maryan0]

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence. And I am sure that is true of all western countries. And I am sure that the majority of Muslim members here would agree. A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

My question is this – why am I, a non-Muslim, posting this thread; why is a Muslim not posting it and calling for others to raise their voices in condemnation? Is it because, as I believe, that you cannot bring yourself to criticise such acts? Is it not the case that Islam teaches (or at least encourages) that Muslims must support other Muslims (and silence is support) simply because they are Muslim and the act was perpetrated against non-Muslims?
slim]

If you were looking for unequivocal and unconditional condemnation you would not have opened the topic with these statements and made the topic about you and your thoughts on all 1.6 billion of us. It is possible that many of us did not hear about this I hardly think a post on a cyber forum should be held as an indication of how all Muslims feel about the murder of innocent non-muslims. I am fairly certain that all Muslims condemn the targeting and murder of innocents. If you wanted condemnation against this act than it should have been purely about this act and not what you think muslims support or care about.
Salam

[Thinker]

If tomorrow some lunatic kills a Muslim in Bradford simply because he is Muslim, I will condemn it absolutely, unequivocally and unconditionally. I won’t be saying what about the Muslim terror attack on x,y,z – my condemnation will be unconditional. And I suspect you would expect it to be and screaming fro a rooftop if it were otherwise and I suspect that you expect that the police would be successful in finding and convicting the perpetrator.

Why is it that when these attacks happen in a Muslim country I suspect that the perpetrator will not be caught and punished; is that because the police and public have no enthusiasm for solving such crimes?

[aadil77]

Why is it that when these attacks happen in a Muslim country I suspect that the perpetrator will not be caught and punished; is that because the police and public have no enthusiasm for solving such crimes?

no, its because there is no islamic rule and law in the country

[Thinker]

imsad

now take a hike!

Does this mean we're not friends anymore imsad

[Dagless]

If tomorrow some lunatic kills a Muslim in Bradford simply because he is Muslim, I will condemn it absolutely, unequivocally and unconditionally. I won’t be saying what about the Muslim terror attack on x,y,z – my condemnation will be unconditional. And I suspect you would expect it to be and screaming fro a rooftop if it were otherwise and I suspect that you expect that the police would be successful in finding and convicting the perpetrator.

So why haven't you been condemning the drone bombings in Pakistan?

[جوري]

If tomorrow some lunatic kills a Muslim in Bradford simply because he is Muslim, I will condemn it absolutely, unequivocally and unconditionally. I won’t be saying what about the Muslim terror attack on x,y,z – my condemnation will be unconditional. And I suspect you would expect it to be and screaming fro a rooftop if it were otherwise and I suspect that you expect that the police would be successful in finding and convicting the perpetrator. Why is it that when these attacks happen in a Muslim country I suspect that the perpetrator will not be caught and punished; is that because the police and public have no enthusiasm for solving such crimes?

I didn't see you condemning the death of Mohammed Al-Majed, by English hooligan thugs:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...ex/7586574.stm
certainly not the first of its kind as crimes of this nature happen every day. Either way what would your condemnation do anyway? Will it bring people back from the dead? will it halt future racist attacks? NO-- you'll go on being a hateful racist in your heart even if desiring to give lip service

all the best

[جوري]

Does this mean we're not friends anymore

I prefer toilet trained friends!

all the best

[YusufNoor]

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence. And I am sure that is true of all western countries. And I am sure that the majority of Muslim members here would agree. A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

Someone has just set off a car bomb outside a Christian church in Egypt killing 21+. This is not the first occasion this has happened in Egypt, Iraq and elsewhere and I am sure that the majority here will condemn the act saying that it is contrary to the teachings of Islam and quoting the no compulsion verse.

My question is this – why am I, a non-Muslim, posting this thread; why is a Muslim not posting it and calling for others to raise their voices in condemnation? Is it because, as I believe, that you cannot bring yourself to criticise such acts? Is it not the case that Islam teaches (or at least encourages) that Muslims must support other Muslims (and silence is support) simply because they are Muslim and the act was perpetrated against non-Muslims?

'The Muslim is the brother of Muslim he neither oppresses him, nor does he fail him.." (Muslim).

"Whoever protects the honour of his brother, Allah will protect his face from hell on the Day of Judgment." (Ahmad and Tirmidhi).

"Help your brother whether he is the oppressor or the oppressed" [Bukhari, Muslim]

your logic is absurd. there are over 1 billion people calling themselves Muslim, many, such as Shii'a, who are severely misguided and whose beliefs i do not share.

WHEN YOU speak out against EVERY ACT of misguidance done by non-Muslims, i will reconsider your position.

and BEFORE you blame Muslims for crimes, make sure the crimes were actually done by Muslims. don't expect me to believe all the malarkey put out by western media.

peace

[GuestFellow]

First, my post presumes that Muslims, particularly Muslims living in the west, want their non Muslim neighbours to believe that they want peace and that they condemn unequivocaly acts of terrorism.

I used to care but not anymore. If people think I support these terroristic attacks, then that is their problem, not mine.

And I ask the question (and it has been asked many times my many others) why don’t you step forward and shout it out.

Personally, I'm a very shy person. I'm not going to on on the streets and protest, I'm not that type of person. :embarrass Plus, I really haven't got time to condemn these terrorist attacks in public, I've got enough problems to deal with like exams.

Some of you respond with the question why should you have to do that particularly when Muslims are being killed by western soldiers?

There are a few western Muslim soldiers, thought I should point that out.

That sort of response is (IMHO) tacit support and as my posts suggests an inability to condemn the acts of another Musim simply because he is Muslim.

If a Muslim does something bad, then I will condemn it. Whether you believe me or not, I'll leave that up to you.

And, what about the non Muslim soliders who died in Yugoslavia fighting to protect the Muslims there, why is there never any mention of them?

No idea (seriously, I don't know everything).

It is a fact that there are several Muslim countries where Muslims are routinely killed simply for following another religion and this is happening more and more frequently.

Source?

Does it come down to this – what is more important to you; what your neighbour thinks of you or what your Muslim brother thinks of you?

What Allah thinks of me really...humans are hard to please.

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence.

If that is the case, then...

A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

Why do you ask Muslims to publicly condemn these attacks?

why am I, a non-Muslim, posting this thread;

I really don't know.

why is a Muslim not posting it and calling for others to raise their voices in condemnation?

I can't speak for other Muslims but I already posted a topic in the world section which is being moderated... :(

Is it because, as I believe, that you cannot bring yourself to criticise such acts?

No we can criticise other Muslims who do bad things.

:popcorn:

^ Wants some popcorn? Really nice, butter flavour. :statisfie

[Ansariyah]

Do all westerners come out and condemn the "coalition forces" when they commit one of their acts of terrorism? Many of them openly support it.

People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.

[Zafran]

Actually, I take Thinker's point. I think it is really important to speak out against such atrocities - as publically as possible and whenever we hear about them.
How else will other people learn and understand how we feel about such things and that we don't condone them?
How else will misinformed non-Muslims learn that most Muslims do not condone such acts?

Perhaps there is a problem with the media being more likely to report terrorist attacks against non-Muslims than against Muslims, but I always try to speak out against ALL kind of terrorism against ALL people!

Of course Muslims matter, Zafran! All people do!
Nobody's innocent blood should be spilled - ever!! :cry:

People pick and choose who they want to condenm and who they dont looking at Thinker I'm sure if another bomb blast goes off in pakistan he wont care. More people have died in that region by terrorism then anywhere else - but does he care nope.

He forget to write that thread but this one has to be first.

[Zafran]

If tomorrow some lunatic kills a Muslim in Bradford simply because he is Muslim, I will condemn it absolutely, unequivocally and unconditionally. I won’t be saying what about the Muslim terror attack on x,y,z – my condemnation will be unconditional. And I suspect you would expect it to be and screaming fro a rooftop if it were otherwise and I suspect that you expect that the police would be successful in finding and convicting the perpetrator.

Why is it that when these attacks happen in a Muslim country I suspect that the perpetrator will not be caught and punished; is that because the police and public have no enthusiasm for solving such crimes?

Muslims dying dont scream anymore - they are dead - but what do you care- you rather dream about a bomblast in Bradford (which is highkly rare) camapred to a bomb blast in Afghainstan, Iraq or pakistan (where its highly likely)

maybe its because Afghanistan was a country of civil war and the invasion of Iraq made a negative impact on the police in that country - and maybe pakistan is border line civil war due to pakistanis fighting frontline "the war on terror".

By the way your condemnation means nothing - its like you or me condeming rape - is that going to stop rape in the future?

I'll ask again - where were your threads when bomb blasts were going off in Iraq, Afghanistan and pakistan - we're you asleep then??

[Ummu Sufyaan]

First, my post presumes that Muslims, particularly Muslims living in the west, want their non Muslim neighbours to believe that they want peace and that they condemn unequivocaly acts of terrorism. And I ask the question (and it has been asked many times my many others) why don’t you step forward and shout it out.

the obvious answer to that would be because it isnt true to begin with.

[Thinker]

I think the general tenor of the posts here prove my point; if put on the spot and asked about a particular atrocity you will condemn it but conditionally e.g. “yes but what about x, y z”. I am not sure why that is, whether it is Islam or the culture of Muslims but when presented with such an incident instead of condemning it you respond as if the question is an attack on Islam or Muslim (culture). See the vitriolic responses here to me personally simply because I asked the question.

You ask - what about the drone attacks in Pakistan – that situation is absolutely not comparable. You state - the atrocity wasn’t committed by a Muslim it was done by the the Jews/CIA – come on, that smacks of desperation; even you don’t really believe that.

Why doesn’t this forum have a section solely devoted to condemnation of acts committed by Islamists which are ‘un-Islamic,’ which bring the name and peaceful nature of Islam into disrepute? As soon as such an act happens a one line post condemning it would stop accusations of tacit support and would show a strong indication that Muslims are ready to step forward and be the first to condemn these acts. That won’t happen (but please prove me wrong). It won’t happened because there would be riots on here as you tore yourselves apart with some of you arguing that x, y and z were not terrorist attacks or that (as I have stated) Muslims should not criticise the acts of other Muslims.

Sad, very sad!

[GuestFellow]

I think the general tenor of the posts here prove my point;

Specifically point them out.

I think your views are inconsistent...

I am British and I am sure that the majority of my fellow citizens believe that the majority of British Muslims want a peaceful, ‘good neighbour’ co-existence.

If that is the case, then...

A question that constantly arises is where are the voices of those Muslims condemning the atrocities of those who murder in the name of Islam?

Why do you ask Muslims to publicly condemn these attacks?

if put on the spot and asked about a particular atrocity you will condemn it but conditionally e.g. “yes but what about x, y z”.

Muslims have always been put on the spot and asked to condemn. All Muslims on this forum condemn bad things that Muslims do. Some Muslims have publicly condemned the attacks, however I suspect you are ignoring them or not convinced.

Muslims are simply curious to hear your views about the horrible things America and Britain had done. May be you support these wars and the killings of innocent civilians, worse, you might even support the torture techniques used against suspects.

See the vitriolic responses here to me personally simply because I asked the question.

They have been asked so many times.

Why doesn’t this forum have a section solely devoted to condemnation of acts committed by Islamists which are ‘un-Islamic,’ which bring the name and peaceful nature of Islam into disrepute?

What is an Islamist? Why are you playing and changing with words? ^o)

Anyway, I never thought of that idea. Good suggestion though.

[Dagless]

I think the general tenor of the posts here prove my point; if put on the spot and asked about a particular atrocity you will condemn it but conditionally e.g. “yes but what about x, y z”. I am not sure why that is, whether it is Islam or the culture of Muslims but when presented with such an incident instead of condemning it you respond as if the question is an attack on Islam or Muslim (culture). See the vitriolic responses here to me personally simply because I asked the question.

Any reasonable person would ask the same thing. Why should you ask someone to do something which you yourself (and most people) do not do. At best it's just something which is not viable, and at worst it makes you look hypocritical.

You ask - what about the drone attacks in Pakistan – that situation is absolutely not comparable.

Why are the drone attacks not comparable?

Why doesn’t this forum have a section solely devoted to condemnation of acts committed by Islamists which are ‘un-Islamic,’ which bring the name and peaceful nature of Islam into disrepute? As soon as such an act happens a one line post condemning it would stop accusations of tacit support and would show a strong indication that Muslims are ready to step forward and be the first to condemn these acts. That won’t happen (but please prove me wrong). It won’t happened because there would be riots on here as you tore yourselves apart with some of you arguing that x, y and z were not terrorist attacks or that (as I have stated) Muslims should not criticise the acts of other Muslims.

Maybe there should be sections on every forum for every social, religious, ethnic, etc. group where people can condemn 2 things which are very loosely related. American forums condemning drone attacks. Christians against littering. Cricket players condemn animal cruelty. :D

[Watcher888]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Why do American's not comdemn the Iraq/Afghan invasion? Thousands of innocents have died since the invasion, which was illegal, no weapons of mass destruction found or anything. Should I now go to a America army forum and make a thread about it? Or maybe I should go on Youtube or Google and do my research before comming to such conclusions.

Look at the Gaza strip bombings, the American media showed NONE of the horrible acts the Zionists did, why because they are their allies? So why would they show innocent Iraqi's getting killed then? So NOW, why should they show Peaceful Muslims comdemning such acts and speaking up?

The Mosques I go to are great, they don't let groups come together and have secret meetings in the corner of the room without inquiring about the subject. There's always Muslims that are doing their bit to bring the real peaceful message of Islam out, but YOU won't let them, so now YOUR complaining about them? And it doesn't help when the Media is constantly throwing all this false and negative propoganda at us either, which completly distorts the public view of what Islam is and they automatically don't want to listen to what we have to say.

You need to understand that the problem isn't from our end it's from yours, you need to do more yourself otherwise our efforts are wasted.

Therefore, please tell us which media outlets you think are reliable and trustworthy!

And do you publicly here, 'denounce' the 9/11 attacks and al muhajiroun who praised and support the 'magnificent 19'?

[Watcher888]

Specifically point them out.

I think your views are inconsistent...



If that is the case, then...



Why do you ask Muslims to publicly condemn these attacks?



Muslims have always been put on the spot and asked to condemn. All Muslims on this forum condemn bad things that Muslims do. Some Muslims have publicly condemned the attacks, however I suspect you are ignoring them or not convinced.

Muslims are simply curious to hear your views about the horrible things America and Britain had done. May be you support these wars and the killings of innocent civilians, worse, you might even support the torture techniques used against suspects.



They have been asked so many times.



What is an Islamist? Why are you playing and changing with words? ^o)

Anyway, I never thought of that idea. Good suggestion though.

The unbelieving people of the world, are currently 'lost'!
The things that happen in war, whether there is any good reason for war or not!
Have been going on since wars started!
During WW2 germany deliberately bombed cities and towns in the 'Blitz', to kill civillians and destroy infrastructure.
So as to soften up the U.K. before the planned invasion!
And have you not heard of the gestapo and it's torture methods?
And what about saddam's despotic regime!

What is an Islamist? Why are you playing and changing with words? ^o)

This is where you get disingenious!
ilsamist's are those claiming to be acting for islam and muslims in the political islamic cause of taking over and ruling the world for allah!
To get the whole world 'submitted' to allah!
If you as a muslim wish to 'denounce' islamist's and their professed aims.
Please do so!

[glo]

This thread is making me deeply sad.

Instead of people standing together and publically declaring their disgust for atrocities which take innocent life - regardless of race, gender or religion (!), many people seem to be too busy with finding excuses or pointing their finger at somebody else.

What's with this 'Atrocities-committed-in-the-name-of-MY-religion-aren't-as-bad-as-the-ones-committed-in-the-name-of-YOUR-religion'?
Surely they are all wrong! :heated:

How can be build a peaceful world, if people aren't willing to take the first step and speak out, instead of expecting 'the other side' to do so first? imsad

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Thinkers question to me is an example of a 'loaded question'. You could say its like replying to the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?".

For illumination

Loaded question

A loaded question may be asked to trick the respondent into admitting something that the questioner believes to be true, and which may in fact be true. So the previous question is "loaded," whether or not the respondent has actually beaten his wife.

This fallacy can be confused with begging the question, which offers a premise no more plausible than, and often just a restatement of, the conclusion.

The term "loaded question" is sometimes used to refer to loaded language that is phrased as a question. This type of question does not necessarily contain a fallacious presupposition, but rather this usage refers to the question having an unspoken and often emotive implication. For example, "Are you a murderer?" would be such a loaded question, as "murder" has a very negative connotation. Such a question may be asked merely to harass or upset the respondent with no intention of listening to their reply, or asked with the full expectation that the respondent will predictably deny it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

Be careful not to take the bait. . . . . .

[GuestFellow]

The unbelieving people of the world, are currently 'lost'!
The things that happen in war, whether there is any good reason for war or not!
Have been going on since wars started!
During WW2 germany deliberately bombed cities and towns in the 'Blitz', to kill civillians and destroy infrastructure.
So as to soften up the U.K. before the planned invasion!
And have you not heard of the gestapo and it's torture methods?
And what about saddam's despotic regime!

Ah wut? o_O

This is where you get disingenious!

Ugh?

ilsamist's are those claiming to be acting for islam and muslims in the political islamic cause of taking over and ruling the world for allah!
To get the whole world 'submitted' to allah!
If you as a muslim wish to 'denounce' islamist's and their professed aims.
Please do so!

You sound hysterical.

[Dagless]

This thread is making me deeply sad.

Instead of people standing together and publically declaring their disgust for atrocities which take innocent life - regardless of race, gender or religion (!), many people seem to be too busy with finding excuses or pointing their finger at somebody else.

What's with this 'Atrocities-committed-in-the-name-of-MY-religion-aren't-as-bad-as-the-ones-committed-in-the-name-of-YOUR-religion'?
Surely they are all wrong! :heated:

How can be build a peaceful world, if people aren't willing to take the first step and speak out, instead of expecting 'the other side' to do so first? imsad

Read the original post. It is not so much people standing together in disgust; it's the pretentious (if hypocritical) expectation that people MUST express their disgust immediately and publicly, or they are obviously overjoyed.

[Zafran]

You ask - what about the drone attacks in Pakistan – that situation is absolutely not comparable. You state - the atrocity wasn’t committed by a Muslim it was done by the the Jews/CIA – come on, that smacks of desperation; even you don’t really believe that.

I was talking about bomb blasts in pakistan but as you dont realy care what actaully happens to muslims around the world - Its only when its non muslims thats when these threads have to be made - you we'rent here when there bomblasts in Iraq and pakistan we're happening, There blood means nothing to you.

How are not drone bombs not camparable to sucide bombing? they both have killed innocent people - yet you find it hard to condem the drone attacks? whats all that about? Is that because its muslim blood?

[Woodrow]

I think the general tenor of the posts here prove my point; if put on the spot and asked about a particular atrocity you will condemn it but conditionally e.g. “yes but what about x, y z”. I am not sure why that is, whether it is Islam or the culture of Muslims but when presented with such an incident instead of condemning it you respond as if the question is an attack on Islam or Muslim (culture). See the vitriolic responses here to me personally simply because I asked the question.

You ask - what about the drone attacks in Pakistan – that situation is absolutely not comparable. You state - the atrocity wasn’t committed by a Muslim it was done by the the Jews/CIA – come on, that smacks of desperation; even you don’t really believe that.

Why doesn’t this forum have a section solely devoted to condemnation of acts committed by Islamists which are ‘un-Islamic,’ which bring the name and peaceful nature of Islam into disrepute? As soon as such an act happens a one line post condemning it would stop accusations of tacit support and would show a strong indication that Muslims are ready to step forward and be the first to condemn these acts. That won’t happen (but please prove me wrong). It won’t happened because there would be riots on here as you tore yourselves apart with some of you arguing that x, y and z were not terrorist attacks or that (as I have stated) Muslims should not criticise the acts of other Muslims.

Sad, very sad!

You may not have noticed but at least some of us who have replied are reverts in the USA and have no or very limited communications with other Muslims on a face-to-Face basis. We often are confused as to how to reply and can be often be with little knowledge of any terrorist attacks outside the USA. to protest something, you need to know of it. Also we want to be certain we have the facts first.

[جوري]

Instead of people standing together and publically declaring their disgust for atrocities which take innocent life - regardless of race, gender or religion (!), many people seem to be too busy with finding excuses or pointing their finger at somebody else.

That is right.. why should people take credit for a crime well orchestrated to spread fire all over the middle east for nothing ultimately but to undermine Islam and serve Israeli interest?
So many gullible or otherwise extremely hateful people in the west are working toward one goal and are really benefiting from this. This isn't the first time this has happened in Egypt.. Ever heard of the LAVON AFFAIR?

here you go.. get smartned up along with your fellows here.

Just because westerners are under-educated oafs doesn't mean the rest of us have to jump on that chawbacon band wagon!

[Thinker]

Why are the drone attacks not comparable?

The drone attacks are targeting terrorist i.e. the Americans are trying to kill a person or persons that they believe has or is about to try and kill them or some other (softer) target. Of course the drone is not a sniper rifle and much as I am sure they try to be accurate and I am sure they want to kill only the targets it is possible that there will be what is called ‘collateral damage.’ Do I condemn these actions – I certainly most sincerely regret any pain loss or suffering caused to any innocent person. My problem is this – those people, after training, are going try and kill me and my family. I could be on the tube train or on a plane one day and one of those people trained in Pakistan could set off his bomb and kill me. I expect my government to do all they can to protect me from that attack. One of the tactics they adopt is to send a drone to kill them before they come and kill me (and you). If I condemn that act I must suggest an alternative – what would that be?

The Christians killed in Egypt were killed because they were Christians. There was no suggestion that they were making bombs or preparing to attack Muslims (or anybody), they weren’t collateral damage accidentally killed in an attempt to take out some maniac who was going to blow up your family.

That’s the difference but I am surprised that wasn’t obvious!

[جوري]

The drone attacks are targeting terrorist

Who are these alleged 'terrorists' do they have a name or all that matters is that the U.S labels them so?

i.e. the Americans are trying to kill a person or persons that they believe has or is about to try and kill them or some other (softer) target.

The operative word here is 'believe' frankly a belief isn't a logical reason to take a life!

Of course the drone is not a sniper rifle and much as I am sure they try to be accurate and I am sure they want to kill only the targets it is possible that there will be what is called ‘collateral damage.’

Of course.. collateral damage.. try to use the reverse logic then when begging for condemnation.. One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter!

Do I condemn these actions – I certainly most sincerely regret any pain loss or suffering caused to any innocent person.

How does that regret take form? I haven't see you doing anything to halt civilian casualties or are you simply giving lip service?

My problem is this – those people, after training, are going try and kill me and my family.

You seem a little paranoid and so your solution is, let's kill them before they think of killing us in the name of freedom of course when you do it it isn't terrorism is it?

I could be on the tube train or on a plane one day and one of those people trained in Pakistan could set off his bomb and kill me. I expect my government to do all they can to protect me from that attack. One of the tactics they adopt is to send a drone to kill them before they come and kill me (and you). If I condemn that act I must suggest an alternative – what would that be?

The alternative is to look into your country's history and intention.. casualties of war can happen locally as well.

The Christians killed in Egypt were killed because they were Christians. There was no suggestion that they were making bombs or preparing to attack Muslims (or anybody), they weren’t collateral damage accidentally killed in an attempt to take out some maniac who was going to blow up your family.

They were killed to instigate a civil war.. it has been brewing a while.. have you ever thought why now.. why not 1500 years ago? why not 500 years ago.. but right now?

That’s the difference but I am surprised that wasn’t obvious!

Perhaps when you fully evolve you won't be always so surprised by common sense!

all the best

[Muezzin]

I speak for myself and a I'm sure a great number of others on this site and off, Muslim or non-Muslim.

I unequivocally condemn all attacks or acts of violence, comitted by individuals or organisations, which deliberately target or otherwise jeapordise civilians' lives.

This thread reminds me of the time a group of extremists gathered outside one of the local mosques to distribute literature encouraging violence. In the short amount of time it took for people to figure out who this group was, the group was promptly thrown off the property. Some might call this the Muslim community policing itself. It did not make the news. I do not know if it therefore equates to silence. I do not know that silence therefore equates to support.

This thread also reminds me of something Ghandi said: 'What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?'

Since this particular thread seems to have run its course and people no longer seem to be discussing the subjects raised in the first post, I am going to close it. However, if you believe I am wrong, please send myself or another mod a private message, and the thread can be re-opened.