Who leaves Hell?

[Tyrion]

Here's something that has been on my mind lately... We all understand that in Islam, once humanity is judged, some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. Heaven is eternal, and as I understand, so is Hell (for some people anyway...).

But I want to know who exactly Hell is eternal for... I've heard many times that some people will pay for their sins in Hell, and then be admitted into heaven... Some people say this only applies to sinful Muslims, but I want to know if Non-Muslims can come under this category as well. Can someone who isn't Muslim eventually leave Hell? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

[AabiruSabeel]

:sl:

Anas ibne-Malik RadhiyAllahu 'anhu narrates that Rasulullah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam said:
On the Day of Resurrection, mankind will be in confusion. Then they will approach Adam 'Alaihis Salam and say: Intercede for us before your Rabb. He will reply: I am not eligible to intercede, you should approach Ibrahim, as he is the Khalil (close friend) of Ar-Rahman. So, they will approach Ibrahim 'Alaihis Salam, but he will say to them: I am not eligible, you should approach Musa, as he is Kalimullah (who speaks to Allah Ta'ala). So, they will approach Musa 'Alaihis Salam, but he will say: I am not eligible, you should approach 'Isa, as he is Ruhullah and Kalimatullah (the Spirit of Allah, and Word of Allah). So, they will approach 'Isa 'Alaihis Salam; but he will say: I am not eligible, you should approach Muhammad Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. Thus, they will approach me and I will say, I am the one to intercede. So I will beseech my Rabb; and He will oblige me. Then He will inspire me with such words that I will praise Him with, but I have no knowledge of these words now. So I will praise Him by those praises and will fall in prostration. Then it will be said: O Muhammad! Raise your head; speak, you will be heard; ask, you will be granted; intercede, your intercession will be accepted. So, I will submit: O my Rabb! My Ummah! My Ummah! (Have mercy on it). It will then be said: Go and take out of the Fire whoever has, in his heart, Iman equivalent to a grain of barley. So, I will go and obey as commanded.
Then I will return and praise Him again by the same praises and will fall in prostration. Then it will be said: O Muhammad! Raise your head; speak, you will be heard; ask, you will be granted; intercede, your intercession will be accepted. So I will beseech: O My Rabb! My Ummah! My Ummah! Then it will be said: Go and take out from the Fire whoever has, in his heart, Iman equivalent to a particle of dust or a mustard seed. So, I will go and comply with the command.
Then I will return and, praise Him once more by the same praises and will fall in prostration. Then it will be said: O Muhammad! Raise your head; speak, you will be heard; ask, you will be granted; intercede, your intercession will be accepted. So I will implore: O My Rabb! My Ummah! My Ummah! Then it will be said: Go and take out from the Fire whoever has Iman, in his heart, as much as the smallest, smallest, smallest grain of mustard seed. So I will go and do as bidden.
And then, I will return for the fourth time and praise Him by the same praises and will fall in prostration. Then it will be said: O Muhammad! Raise your head; speak, you will be heard; ask, you will be granted; intercede, your intercession will be accepted. So I will urge: O My Rabb! Permit me (to intercede) for anyone who has said La ilaha illallah. Thus, Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will say: By My Honour, and By My Majesty, and By My Grandeur, and By My Sublimity; whoever has said La ilaha illallah, I will certainly take him out of the Fire. [Bukhari]

And in the narration of Abu Sa'id Al Khudri Radhiyallahu 'anhu: (In reply to the urges of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam for the fourth time) Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will say: The Angels have interceded, and the Prophets have interceded, and the believers have interceded, and none remain except the Most Merciful of the Merciful. He will then grasp a handful from the Fire, taking out those who had not done a single virtuous act, and who had been turned to charcoal. He will then put them into a river of life at the entrance of Paradise, called Nahar-ul-Hayat (the River of Life). They will be revived like the seedlings that sprout in the silt carried by a flood. And they will come forth like pearls; around their necks shall be straps of gold. The dwellers of Paradise will recognize them by these straps as those whom Allah had released from the Fire and made to enter Paradise without having done any good deed. Then Allah will say to them: Enter into Paradise, and whatever you have seen is yours. So they will say: O our Rabb! You have given us what none was given in the world! He will reply: For you I have something better than this. They will say: O our Rabb! What could be better than this? He will then reply: My Pleasure, and now I will never be angry with you. [Muslim]

[Tyrion]

And in the narration of Abu Sa'id Al Khudri Radhiyallahu 'anhu: (In reply to the urges of Rasulullah Sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam for the fourth time) Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will say: The Angels have interceded, and the Prophets have interceded, and the believers have interceded, and none remain except the Most Merciful of the Merciful. He will then grasp a handful from the Fire, taking out those who had not done a single virtuous act, and who had been turned to charcoal. He will then put them into a river of life at the entrance of Paradise, called Nahar-ul-Hayat (the River of Life). They will be revived like the seedlings that sprout in the silt carried by a flood. And they will come forth like pearls; around their necks shall be straps of gold. The dwellers of Paradise will recognize them by these straps as those whom Allah had released from the Fire and made to enter Paradise without having done any good deed. Then Allah will say to them: Enter into Paradise, and whatever you have seen is yours. So they will say: O our Rabb! You have given us what none was given in the world! He will reply: For you I have something better than this. They will say: O our Rabb! What could be better than this? He will then reply: My Pleasure, and now I will never be angry with you. [Muslim]

So is this Hadith taken to refer to Non-Muslims in Hell? Or just really bad Muslims?

[aadil77]

But I want to know who exactly Hell is eternal for... I've heard many times that some people will pay for their sins in Hell, and then be admitted into heaven... Some people say this only applies to sinful Muslims, but I want to know if Non-Muslims can come under this category as well. Can someone who isn't Muslim eventually leave Hell? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

That's kind of like being given a second chance.

Allah has said in the Qur'an:

Lo! Those who disbelieve, and die while they are disbelievers; on them is the curse of Allah and of angels and of men combined. 2:161

They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved. 2:162

and He will never go against His word



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[Zafran]

salaam

so ultimatley all monetheists will have a chance of going to heaven thanks to Allah swt mercy which will allow the prophet pbuh to intercede for them.

Only the serious disbelievers will stay in hell forever.

peace

[Sigma]

This topic has been bothering me too lately, I'd appreciate if someone could help me. Here is what I wrote to someone else previously:

Ok here goes. My problem lies with the concept of hell. Hell is the eternal abode for disbelievers and is the worst place one can imagine. My question is... How is it fair to sentence someone to an eternity in the worst possible place imagineable, simply for disbelieving? Disbelieving is the worst crime annyone can commit but why does it deserve such a punishment? This may sound like a stupid question at first, but let me elaborate.

Why do people disbelieve in Allah? Generally, people will probably cite a lack of evidence as the main reason. We claim to have the evidence and if we show it to disbelievers they often still reject it. Why do they reject it? Usually, it's the result of faulty reasoning or the misrepresentation of Islam. So at the heart of the matter, what we have is billions upon billions of people essentially going to hell due to faulty reasoning or the misrepresentation of Islam. How can this possible be fair? If we provided undeniable evidence, undoubtably most people would be Muslim. Most of them disbelieve not because they don't want to but out of ignorance. Does this deserve them being burnt for all eternity?

We often say life is a test. What is Allah actually testing for? Is he testing our reasoning skills? Or is he testing us to see whether we are good or bad? If it's the latter, one does not need to believe to be good or to be bad. And even then, even if we do many bad things in this life, finite crimes cannot possible justify infinite punishment. People often say, "But you are rejecting God and this is a crime against an infinite being so it deserves infinte punishment," but I don't think this is a good enough reason. People don't willing reject God, they always cite a lack of proof or a lack of evidence (again due to ignorane or faulty reasoning). I could understand an eternity in hell if people willingly rejected Allah knowing full well Allah is there. But 99% of people don't do this, they are merely a circumstance of where they are born and raised. Who decides where people are born? Allah. So how can people be blamed (and sentenced to all eternity in hell) for simply being a product of the environment Allah put them in?

This leads me on to my next point. How can people be accountable for sins and disbelieving? This again seems a stupid question at first but bare with me. But what shapes us as human beings is our environment and our personality. Who decides our environment? Allah and our personality is based on our genes. Again who decides are genes? Allah. So, Allah creates us the way we are so how can people be blamed for our actions? Linking back to my previous point. Whether we disbelieve or not is mostly down to our environment, so how can people be blamed for disbelieving and sent to an eternity in hell simply for being born somewhere Allah decided?

[Perseveranze]

This topic has been bothering me too lately, I'd appreciate if someone could help me. Here is what I wrote to someone else previously:

Ok here goes. My problem lies with the concept of hell. Hell is the eternal abode for disbelievers and is the worst place one can imagine. My question is... How is it fair to sentence someone to an eternity in the worst possible place imagineable, simply for disbelieving? Disbelieving is the worst crime annyone can commit but why does it deserve such a punishment? This may sound like a stupid question at first, but let me elaborate.

Why do people disbelieve in Allah? Generally, people will probably cite a lack of evidence as the main reason. We claim to have the evidence and if we show it to disbelievers they often still reject it. Why do they reject it? Usually, it's the result of faulty reasoning or the misrepresentation of Islam. So at the heart of the matter, what we have is billions upon billions of people essentially going to hell due to faulty reasoning or the misrepresentation of Islam. How can this possible be fair? If we provided undeniable evidence, undoubtably most people would be Muslim. Most of them disbelieve not because they don't want to but out of ignorance. Does this deserve them being burnt for all eternity?

We often say life is a test. What is Allah actually testing for? Is he testing our reasoning skills? Or is he testing us to see whether we are good or bad? If it's the latter, one does not need to believe to be good or to be bad. And even then, even if we do many bad things in this life, finite crimes cannot possible justify infinite punishment. People often say, "But you are rejecting God and this is a crime against an infinite being so it deserves infinte punishment," but I don't think this is a good enough reason. People don't willing reject God, they always cite a lack of proof or a lack of evidence (again due to ignorane or faulty reasoning). I could understand an eternity in hell if people willingly rejected Allah knowing full well Allah is there. But 99% of people don't do this, they are merely a circumstance of where they are born and raised. Who decides where people are born? Allah. So how can people be blamed (and sentenced to all eternity in hell) for simply being a product of the environment Allah put them in?

This leads me on to my next point. How can people be accountable for sins and disbelieving? This again seems a stupid question at first but bare with me. But what shapes us as human beings is our environment and our personality. Who decides our environment? Allah and our personality is based on our genes. Again who decides are genes? Allah. So, Allah creates us the way we are so how can people be blamed for our actions? Linking back to my previous point. Whether we disbelieve or not is mostly down to our environment, so how can people be blamed for disbelieving and sent to an eternity in hell simply for being born somewhere Allah decided?

If you ever had the opportunity to turn to the truth and then you not only reject it, but begin to insult it and think of it in a really negative way, then as you can imagine, when your Creator shows you exactly what you did/said against Him, will there be any complaint for an eternal punishment? Is it not bad enough that Mankind continue'd to reject his messages through the likes of Moses(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) etc. to the point that God Himself had to make the promise of protecting His final message as an act of great Mercy. Lucky for us, we won't be judged as a whole upon Mankind and instead will be judged individually.

At the end of the day, no one can ever say for sure what God wills and what His judgements will be, one thing is for certain as it was said in the Quran, God will be absolutly 100% Just/Fair when dealing with everyone on Judgementday. He will take everything into consideration, how big the test was, how they did in it etc. God even says that {whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).} [17:15].

You should note, even the most racist haters, the one's who have commited so much Sin, even these people have finally accepted the truth and turned to Islam. So if they can do it, why can't everyone else? This will certainly be an arguement against them on that day.

No way does the Believer who has rejected evil, who has rejected all the "desires" of this falsly world deserves to be in the same league as the one who has done the absolute opposite, moreover insulted the truth. That would be great injustice.

Allah(swt) in the end knows best.

Edit: I see you've asked other questions, I'm sure there's alot more people on this forum that can answer them better then myself.

[Sigma]

If you ever had the opportunity to turn to the truth and then you not only reject it, but begin to insult it and think of it in a really negative way, then as you can imagine, when your Creator shows you exactly what you did/said against Him, will there be any complaint for an eternal punishment? Is it not bad enough that Mankind continue'd to reject his messages through the likes of Moses(pbuh), Jesus(pbuh) etc. to the point that God Himself had to make the promise of protecting His final message as an act of great Mercy. Lucky for us, we won't be judged as a whole upon Mankind and instead will be judged individually.

At the end of the day, no one can ever say for sure what God wills and what His judgements will be, one thing is for certain as it was said in the Quran, God will be absolutly 100% Just/Fair when dealing with everyone on Judgementday. He will take everything into consideration, how big the test was, how they did in it etc. God even says that {whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).} [17:15].

You should note, even the most racist haters, the one's who have commited so much Sin, even these people have finally accepted the truth and turned to Islam. So if they can do it, why can't everyone else? This will certainly be an arguement against them on that day.

No way does the Believer who has rejected evil, who has rejected all the "desires" of this falsly world deserves to be in the same league as the one who has done the absolute opposite, moreover insulted the truth. That would be great injustice.

Allah(swt) in the end knows best.

Edit: I see you've asked other questions, I'm sure there's alot more people on this forum that can answer them better then myself.

Punishment is fine, but eternal punishment? People have had the opportunity to turn to the truth but then again, I have the opportunity to turn to Hinduism however I don't seen any evidence for its claims. Similarly, some non-muslims who are perfectly rational people who do not insult Islam but don't seen enough proof for it don't believe in it. Should they go to hell for all eternity? Simply for disbelief, not insulting or being necessarily bad or evil. Just for simply disbelieving in something they don't think there is enough proof for.

[Perseveranze]

Punishment is fine, but eternal punishment? People have had the opportunity to turn to the truth but then again, I have the opportunity to turn to Hinduism however I don't seen any evidence for its claims. Similarly, some non-muslims who are perfectly rational people who do not insult Islam but don't seen enough proof for it don't believe in it. Should they go to hell for all eternity? Simply for disbelief, not insulting or being necessarily bad or evil. Just for simply disbelieving in something they don't think there is enough proof for.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I think the part you need to realise Brother, is that we Muslims don't even know if we will go to Heaven. Even the Prophet(pbuh) said He had no knowledge of what God will decide and only through God's mercy would anyone ever enter the Gates.

That's why we say "Allah-Willing" we will go to Heaven.

Just for simply disbelieving in something they don't think there is enough proof for.

God will know, since we Muslims believe the evidence is substantial and today no one has been able to successfully disapprove the Miraculous Quran or how it originated. If someone Geniunly looked into Islam, with real purpose to find the truth, with an open mind and tried hard to study it in the depths, then I don't see why they would "reject it".

I told you in another thread, I rejected Islam before because of my arrogance. But when I gave it another go, when I really tried hard to look deep into it, I was more convinced then anything else.

Do you know there's some people that accept the Quran's divinity but aren't Muslims? Some people just don't want to commit to that change, No girlfriends, no drinking, having to pray 5 times a day etc. There are also "levels" of Hell, just like a system where the lowest level will be the harshest and the highest level will be less harsh.

Anyways, I am not qualified in any way to give you a correct answer to your questions, but all you need to realise is that God will judge everyone fairly. He knows far better then any Human does, we are merely his Creation and none of us can ever say with complete conviction as to how He will judge people, no one can point fingers and say "you will go to Hell for eternity", do you know that man better then his Creator? You don't, only God knows and only God will decide. The Quran though, does thankfully outline who's on the right path and who isn't.

[Sigma]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I think the part you need to realise Brother, is that we Muslims don't even know if we will go to Heaven. Even the Prophet(pbuh) said He had no knowledge of what God will decide and only through God's mercy would anyone ever enter the Gates.

That's why we say "Allah-Willing" we will go to Heaven.

I mean in general terms not people in specific. Isn't it said that all Muslims will eventually go to heaven.

God will know, since we Muslims believe the evidence is substantial and today no one has been able to successfully disapprove the Miraculous Quran or how it originated.

I don't know, the main miracle is the Qur'an's literary miracle. To appreciate this people have to be very well versed in Classical arabic. Now to any old random westerner, this is asking too much. So this links back to my point about the environment, not everyone is given an equal footing. But that's not my main issue, it's just the infinite punishment.

If someone Geniunly looked into Islam, with real purpose to find the truth, with an open mind and tried hard to study it in the depths, then I don't see why they would "reject it".

Well it's hard for anyone to be completely objective. Environment shapes people the most.

I told you in another thread, I rejected Islam before because of my arrogance. But when I gave it another go, when I really tried hard to look deep into it, I was more convinced then anything else.

Do you know there's some people that accept the Quran's divinity but aren't Muslims? Some people just don't want to commit to that change, No girlfriends, no drinking, having to pray 5 times a day etc. There are also "levels" of Hell, just like a system where the lowest level will be the harshest and the highest level will be less harsh.

Anyways, I am not qualified in any way to give you a correct answer to your questions, but all you need to realise is that God will judge everyone fairly. He knows far better then any Human does, we are merely his Creation and none of us can ever say with complete conviction as to how He will judge people, no one can point fingers and say "you will go to Hell for eternity", do you know that man better then his Creator? You don't, only God knows and only God will decide. The Quran though, does thankfully outline who's on the right path and who isn't.

I agree with you in this at the end of the day. However, I know people who reject Abrahamic religion simply because of this issue of Infinite hell. So for believers it's not much of a problem, but for people sitting on the fence or on the other side. It's one of their main contentions.

[Predator]

If someone never heard of Islam, will they go to hell?

Question


I'm still student and want to know Islam deeply! as we know that non-Muslim will go to hell if they don't take Islam as their way of life. If someone never heard/known of Islam, Will they go to hell? If this type of people go to hell, Allah is not fair to His creatures. Please give me any dalil or statement from Hadith or Quran to assure me. Wassalam




Answer


Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.
This question deals with the last part of the verse (And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).} [17:15]. In fact, this verse includes three things of utmost importance:
Firstly, it is the person who decides his own fate, be it good or bad. It is he who masters his own mind and his own senses. Indeed Allah has shown all the people the way that leads to the good and the one that leads to the bad.
Secondly, no person bears another person's burden no matter how close they are to one another. As a matter of fact, everybody bears his own burden and shall not blame but his own soul when he finds himself alone on The Day of Resurrection.
Thirdly, Allah has provided His slaves with a great blessing when He decided not to punish people until He has sent a messenger to warn them against the Evil and call them for the Good. Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {whoever goes right, then he goes right only for the benefit of his ownself. And whoever goes astray, then he goes astray to his own loss. No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden. And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).} [17:15].
There are many verses dealing with the same issue. All of them are agreed that Allah does not throw anyone into Hell unless He has sent messengers to them.
To conclude, Allah makes it clear that He does not punish any people before sending a messenger to them to guide them to the right path and warn them of the consequences of going astray giving evidence, setting Sharia rules and calling to the good and right religion.
There is no difference between the era of the Prophet Muhammad and the consecutive eras that came after him. But if the call to Islam does not reach someone and he does not hear about Prophet Muhammad his rule is then the same as the one who dies before the sending of Muhammad as a Prophet and did not know about other Prophets. It is narrated in a Hadeeth that such people will be tested and tried on The Last Day. Ahmad narrated that the Prophet said: "Four people will 'protest' on the Day of Judgement, a deaf who does not hear anything, an idiot, a decrepit and one who dies and in a period where no Prophet was sent (Fatra).
As for the deaf he says: "O my Lord! Islam came while I could not hear"; an idiot says: "O my Lord! Islam came while children were throwing me with dung. The decrepit says: "O my Lord! Islam came while I could not understand anything". The one who died in a period where no Prophet was sent says: "O my Lord! No Prophet came to me". Then Allah takes a covenant from them that they would obey Him and then He sends one to tell them to enter Hell. By Him in whose hand is my soul! If they enter Hell it will be cool, and a means of safety for them".
It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that the Prophet said: "By him in whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire".
Allah knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=82190

[siam]

"as we know that non-Muslim will go to hell if they don't take Islam as their way of life."
----This is incorrect.
In my opinion----there is a difference between a "disbeliever" and a "Non-Muslim."

According to Toshihiko Iztuzu, the word Kaffir (disbeliever) ---"one who covers up" or someone who covers up the seed with dirt (a farmer)---comes from the root word that is the same as "ungrateful"....therefore a "Kaffir" is one who has understood Islam and rejects it out of ungratefulness. A person cannot reject something they do not know---they must know and understand it before they choose to reject it. Therefore, a non-Muslim is not necessarily a "Kaffir."

The word "Muslim" itself in the Quran is not a label for a group of people but a "state of being"---it means "one who submits" (to God). Apart from "Muslim", there are other words the Quran uses to denote a state of being such as Momeen (One who has faith) Mutaqqeen(One who has Taqwa/God-awareness) etc.

The word Islam is also not a "label" but a "quality"---The word means (willing) submission and its root word is the same as for salam (peace) ---so that Islam in its full context means willing submission to God's will to attain peace. (both spiritual peace and worldly peace).

Islam (the religion) is not simply about "belief"---in fact it advocates AGAINST blind belief---it is about submission to God's will ----which can be summarized as ----Right belief that promotes right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.
In other words---we will be held accountable for our belief, intentions, and actions. All 3 things are important.

That is why it is not a good idea to speculate on who does or does not go to Paradise/Hell....these are complicated matters best left to the Judgement of God. We must confine judgements to ourselves and ask ourselves---will God approve of our intentions and actions?----leave the destiny of others to God's will......

[siam]

"Allah creates us the way we are so how can people be blamed for our actions? " 1) We are all created inherently good. We have the moral capacity to understand good and bad.---therefore there is no excuse for doing bad. 2)We have been given "Guidance" in the form of knowledge and teachers such as parents, school, teachers, professors, philosophers and Prophets to teach us---so no excuse there either. 3)We have been given intelligence to understand Guidance and to think for ourselves and the free-will to decide our own intentions and actions---so, again there is no excuse. 4) Justice demands that we are held accountable for thedegree of responsibility we are capable of. therefore, if God has given us less mental capacity than others, he will Judge us accordingly---if he has given us more blessings than others---then our responsibilities are higher and our Judgement will be accordingly as well.

[Hiroshi]

Here's something that has been on my mind lately... We all understand that in Islam, once humanity is judged, some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. Heaven is eternal, and as I understand, so is Hell (for some people anyway...).

But I want to know who exactly Hell is eternal for... I've heard many times that some people will pay for their sins in Hell, and then be admitted into heaven... Some people say this only applies to sinful Muslims, but I want to know if Non-Muslims can come under this category as well. Can someone who isn't Muslim eventually leave Hell? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.

Hi Tyrion.

I would be surprised if Islam teaches that non Muslims eventually leave Hell. This link:

http://futureislam.wordpress.com/201...-go-to-heaven/

seems to say that all non Muslims stay in Hell. I am interested as well as you if anyone has a different understanding.

Quote:

The aayah is (interpretation of the meaning): “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]


The hadeeth is: “By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell.” (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153).

[Ummu Sufyaan]

somethinh i posted a while ago

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...efutation.html (its still not open for debate)

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I would be surprised if Islam teaches that non Muslims eventually leave Hell. This link:

you bet. use your braincells Eisenstein.

There is a great deal of evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah to show that Hell will never cease to exist, and that the kaafireen will abide in Hell forever and will never come out of it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“This, because you took the Revelations of Allaah (this Qur’aan) in mockery, and the life of the world deceived you. So this Day, they shall not be taken out from there (Hell), nor shall they be returned to the worldly life (so that they repent to Allaah, and beg His Pardon for their sins)”

[al-Jaathiyah 45:35]

[Hiroshi]

you bet. use your braincells Eisenstein.

There is a great deal of evidence in the Qur’aan and Sunnah to show that Hell will never cease to exist, and that the kaafireen will abide in Hell forever and will never come out of it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“This, because you took the Revelations of Allaah (this Qur’aan) in mockery, and the life of the world deceived you. So this Day, they shall not be taken out from there (Hell), nor shall they be returned to the worldly life (so that they repent to Allaah, and beg His Pardon for their sins)”

[al-Jaathiyah 45:35]

That is settled then.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^hardly surprising.

[Hiroshi]

^hardly surprising.

My own expectation is not to live forever in either heaven or hell. Doesn't even the Qur'an say that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)?

[Tyrion]

My own expectation is not to live forever in either heaven or hell. Doesn't even the Qur'an say that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)?

End that right there... I really don't want to go off topic here...

[Ummu Sufyaan]

since you are so keen quoting from the quran, i thought this verse would be of interest to you : So, ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who has Taqwa (piety).

only allah can define who the righteous are.

EDIT: ended here.

[Saad17]

Hmmm

Hell:

They will dwell therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord wills. Verily, your Lord is the doer of what He wills. (Quran 11:107)

Paradise:

And those who are blessed, they will be in Paradise, abiding therein for all the time that the heavens and the earth endure, except as your Lord will, a gift without an end. (Quran 11:108)

Surely, Allah does what He wills.

And Allah is All-Knowing, He knows and we know not.

[Hiroshi]

End that right there... I really don't want to go off topic here...

Apologies. That wasn't my intention.

Anyway, I believe that Ummu Sufyaan is correct. My translation of the Qur'an by Al-Hilali and Khan has a lengthy footnote to Surah 68:42 including a quote from Sahih Al-Bukhari, 9/7439 (O.P.532B). Briefly, it condemns both Jews and Christians to Hell for their beliefs and no concern is expressed for them. Only the Muslims in Hell are granted any intercession.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^agreeing with me isnt going to make me any soft on you.

allah has already made what the prerequisites for heaven and hell are and if that's been made clear but the person decides to turn a blind eye, then that's the person fault. who show's mercy to those who continuously disobey them, despite aforewarning them of the consequences.

dont be dumb just for the sake of argument.

[Hiroshi]

^agreeing with me isnt going to make me any soft on you.

allah has already made what the prerequisites for heaven and hell are and if that's been made clear but the person decides to turn a blind eye, then that's the person fault. who show's mercy to those who continuously disobey them, despite aforewarning them of the consequences.

dont be dumb just for the sake of argument.

I believe that Tyrion is hoping that there may be some intercession possible for non-Muslims. I don't want to disappoint him. But unfortunately I am pretty sure that you are right in what you say. What do the experts think?

[Saad17]

I believe that Tyrion is hoping that there may be some intercession possible for non-Muslims. I don't want to disappoint him. But unfortunately I am pretty sure that you are right in what you say. What do the experts think?

I'll express my view.

The aayah is (interpretation of the meaning): “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

Clearly this verse says that when someone seek another religion beside Islam, that is he must understand that Islam is a religion of God, the truth from their Lord but still believes that there is some divine religion out, they will be the losers, clearly this verse shows that those who are Muslims should not be fools, there is no helper or any religion that can save them from God's judgment. Quran is not a book of all knowledge but rather, a manual for people who have knowledge that they know Islam is truth, stick to it or you will perish.


The hadeeth is: “By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell.” (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153).

Its obvious that the Jews and Christians saw Muhammad (PBUH), fulfilling their prophecies and even God convinced them that this is a messenger of His, so yes the Jews and Christians who have seen Muhammad (PBUH) in his time, must believe in him or they will perish. However this doesn't apply to the Christians and Jews having a false image of Muhammad (PBUH) as a false prophet or so until they truly understand that Muhammad (PBUH) was indeed a prophet of God but if they reject him then yes, they will perish, there is no helper against those who deny the truth when they see it, who lie that God has a son when they know He doesn't but not for those who are innocent of the truth who say Muhammad (PBUH) is a false prophet without knowing him, they will suffer the punishment (probably minor) of speaking without true knowledge and for not seeking the truth.

Doesn't even the Qur'an say that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)?

Its referring to the believers that God has decreed in the Psalm that His righteous servants shall inherit the earth, this mean that those who oppose God and His servants will be the losers, God will make His servants inherit the earth and make them the rulers such as Muhammad (PBUH).

As for the topic I would say that Hell is eternal as far as we know, some people will be taken out of it for it is a punishment, the purification of their sins, the hard way. As for the rebellious people like Pharoah, such people will never enter Paradise but as far as Allah knows, Hell would end at one point because His Mercy outstrips His wrath so Hell can't be as eternal as Paradise, it can be extinguished and Allah would just bury all the people along with it for Hell isn't Allah's specialty, its His Mercy (Paradise) so that He would keep forever but not the same treatment for His anger (Hell).

[Ummu Sufyaan]

@ hiroshi its already been made clear, you said so yourself. what is your point? to prove how evil Islam is? you've proven nothing. your effort at trying to sow doubt in peoples hearts is rendered useless. cry a river, build a bridge and get over it. simple.

[Muhaba]

non-muslims will never leave hell. their is no greater injustice than to disbelieve in God. non-muslims choose to disbelieve deliberately after all proofs have been given them and therefore deserve to be in hell for ever. however, there are those people who believe in one God and the life after death, and do good deeds. if these people haven't received islamic knowledge and haven't deliberatly disbelieved in the islamic belief, then as long as they are monotheists, then Allah is most merciful and who knows if such people may be rewarded in the Hereafter as Allah doesn't do any injustice. and i'm strictly talking about those people who are monotheists and have not received any knowledge about islam. And Allah knows best.

but those people who deliberatlly disbelieve in Islam, even if they are monotheists, then they will be in Hell forever, as to go to Heaven one must believe in the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and do all the things obligatory in islam and refrain from the forbidden things.

[Sigma]

non-muslims will never leave hell. their is no greater injustice than to disbelieve in God. non-muslims choose to disbelieve deliberately after all proofs have been given them and therefore deserve to be in hell for ever. however, there are those people who believe in one God and the life after death, and do good deeds. if these people haven't received islamic knowledge and haven't deliberatly disbelieved in the islamic belief, then as long as they are monotheists, then Allah is most merciful and who knows if such people may be rewarded in the Hereafter as Allah doesn't do any injustice. and i'm strictly talking about those people who are monotheists and have not received any knowledge about islam. And Allah knows best.

but those people who deliberatlly disbelieve in Islam, even if they are monotheists, then they will be in Hell forever, as to go to Heaven one must believe in the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and do all the things obligatory in islam and refrain from the forbidden things.

I don't think there is any sane person on this earth who realises Islam is true but rejects it. Anyone who rejects Islam knowing it is true is insane (this is a fact, it's like someone rejecting 2+2=4). So, I think the explanation of "Only people who knowingly reject Islam will go to hell forever," is nonsense. So, you're telling me Allah will torture madmen for all eternity? What would be the point of that?

"Allah creates us the way we are so how can people be blamed for our actions? " 1) We are all created inherently good. We have the moral capacity to understand good and bad.---therefore there is no excuse for doing bad. 2)We have been given "Guidance" in the form of knowledge and teachers such as parents, school, teachers, professors, philosophers and Prophets to teach us---so no excuse there either. 3)We have been given intelligence to understand Guidance and to think for ourselves and the free-will to decide our own intentions and actions---so, again there is no excuse. 4) Justice demands that we are held accountable for thedegree of responsibility we are capable of. therefore, if God has given us less mental capacity than others, he will Judge us accordingly---if he has given us more blessings than others---then our responsibilities are higher and our Judgement will be accordingly as well.

1. Agreed 2.Well considering most of these people are non-muslim it's not very good guidance islamically 3. No excuse for what? Sure, if we make mistakes in our reasoning and fail to measure the evidence for and against Islam. Then yes we are guilty for bad reasoning but does that mean someone should spend an eternity in hell for bad reasoning? I don't have a problem with Hell it self. Just the Eternity. 4. Agreed

[Ramadhan]

I don't think there is any sane person on this earth who realises Islam is true but rejects it. Anyone who rejects Islam knowing it is true is insane (this is a fact, it's like someone rejecting 2+2=4). So, I think the explanation of "Only people who knowingly reject Islam will go to hell forever," is nonsense. So, you're telling me Allah will torture madmen for all eternity? What would be the point of that?

I have to disagree with you.
For example: There are plenty of orientalists who have deep deep knowledge about Qur'an, Muhammad SAW and Islam and are aware about the truth in Islam, but instead use their knowledge to distort the message of islam and mislead people about islam.

[Sigma]

I have to disagree with you.
For example: There are plenty of orientalists who have deep deep knowledge about Qur'an, Muhammad SAW and Islam and are aware about the truth in Islam, but instead use their knowledge to distort the message of islam and mislead people about islam.

Ok, I'd love to know the basis to why they reject Islam. Maybe they feel there isn't enough proof? They may have information but have not enouctered anyone to correct their faulty reasoning (which results them coming to the wrong conclusion and spreading their false ideaologies). I'm talking about people who know that Islam is true, these orientalists know about the Qur'an but probably don't see the evidence for whatever reason.

But ok, i can see that premise of "Anyone who knowingly rejects the truth is insane" is open to challenge. Some people may reject obvious evidence simply out of arrogance or emotional reasons.

[Abu-Abdullah]

Salaam everyone! :sunny:

a desbeliver remains in hell forever and here is the great Imam al-Ghazali's view as to who are the desbelievers:

As for other nations [consider the person] who imputes lying to the Prophet [saw] after he has heard of the impeccable and undeniable transmission of his appearance, his quality and his miracles that suspended normal laws, such as his splitting the moon, the pebbles praising God in his hand, the welling up of water from between his fingers, and the miraculous Quran revealed to him, that challenged the eloquent to rival it but [all who tried] failed; if all of this information has reached his ears, yet he shuns it, turns his back, does not consider it or reflect on it, and does not hasten to believe in it, then such a person is indeed a denier and a liar, and he indeed is a disbeliever (kaafir)


However such a person does not fit the description of most of the europeans and central asians who live far away from the land of the muslims, infact I would argue that whoever did hear of these things [about the Prophet [saw] would have to have wanted to find them out in order to ascertain the reality of what is claimed [such a person would have to be] a religious person who did not prefer wordly matters to otherwordly one's, If he felt no urge to find out the truth, it could only be due to the fact that he was complacent, inclined toward this world and bereft of piety and a sense of momentuousness of religion and that is what desbelief (Kufr) is


However if a person felt a desire to find out the truth, but neglected to do so, that negligence is also desbelief. Indeed anyone of faith in God and the last Day of any religion will indeed indefatigably seek the truth after he has seen the appearance of signs that suspend the norms of experience [miracles], if someone sets out and attempts to ascertain the reality but dies before being able to complete his investigation, he is also forgiven and granted the vast mercy and grace of God, so have a vast view of the Mercy of God, the Exalted, and do not measure divine matters with ordinary wordly standards and know well that afterlife is simmilar to this life, for the Quran states, 'your creation and your ressurection is as one soul' [31:27]


Most people in this world enjoy relative security and ease or a state that makes life enjoyable; for that reason, if most people were given a choice between life and death, for example, they would choose life; as for those suffering to such a degree, that they would prefer death, such cases are rare. THOSE CONDEMED ETERNALLY TO THE FIRE IN THE AFTERLIFE WILL ALSO BE RARE, for the attribute of divine Mercy does not change due to the diversity of our circumstances, and 'this life' and the 'afterlife' are simply two expressions designating the diversity of our circumstances, were it not so, there would be no meaning to the statement of the Prophet [saw], when he said, 'the first thing that God wrote in the first book was, 'I am God, there is no deity but Me, My Mercy takes precedence over my wrath, so he who witnesses that there is no God but God, and muhammad [saw] is His servant and apostle, for him is the garden'


...............................


There is no doubt that the desbelievers are in the inferno, but imam Al-Ghazali is explaining that kufr [desbelief] is an active denial, not a passive state of ignorance. That is, denial must follow a clear understanding of what one is denying, moreover, for those who are sincere, it is not only understandable, but neccessary that they would search for the truth.

ref: who are the desbelievers by shaykh hamza yusuf; available online]


hope this helps


Salaam! :smile:

[Perseveranze]

Apologies. That wasn't my intention.

Anyway, I believe that Ummu Sufyaan is correct. My translation of the Qur'an by Al-Hilali and Khan has a lengthy footnote to Surah 68:42 including a quote from Sahih Al-Bukhari, 9/7439 (O.P.532B). Briefly, it condemns both Jews and Christians to Hell for their beliefs and no concern is expressed for them. Only the Muslims in Hell are granted any intercession.

Peace,

"Only the Muslims in Hell are granted any intercession."

That's ignorance, if you read this topic, did you not see the part about the people who have never "heard of Islam" before?

Think your mixing religions up where in one all go straight to Heaven on a single statement and the rest don't. The answer to this direct question isn't as straightforward, there are Scholars with different opinions on the matter. Anyways, God knows his Creation better then Man does. This is a good article -
Do non-Muslims go straight to hell?


Most people think (rightly or wrongly) that Islam is an exclusive religion. The thinking goes: You either believe in it or you don't. Anyone who doesn't, will suffer punishment. That punishment will most likely be the Hellfire.

Or the thinking goes: Hold on, what about all the really good people who were (or are) non-Muslim. Mother Teresa, Mahathma Gandhi, and so on, did countless good things for humanity. Will all their good deeds go to waste just because they weren't Muslims?

But what is the answer? Does Islam say that all non-Muslims will go to hell?

This post is not to say that the answer is "Yes, they're all gonna be punished" or "No, God is Love, the good people will be ok". This post is merely to give food for thought, and, if it makes any conclusion at all, will be to say "Don't know for sure, but not necessarily".

People cite different verses from the Qur'an to present their particular view point.

Let's take a look at a few (please note that for in-depth Quranic exegesis please refer to qualified Quranic scholars):

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
(Holy Qur'an 2:62 and (almost identical in) 5:69)

This seems to indicate that salvation is dependent upon three conditions only: Belief in God, Belief in the Day of Judgement, and righteous or good deeds.

What about Mother Teresa and her ilk of righteous non-Muslims?

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."
(Holy Qur'an 99:7-8)

This verse suggests "anyone" or everyone will be rewarded for their good and bad actions. But will they go to Heaven or Hell? Allah hu Alim.

Another argument put forward is that, only those who have received a full and complete understanding of Islam will be judged by their acceptance(Muslim) or rejection (kufr) of it. If they haven't received this complete understanding of Islam then they will be tested on Judgement Day, and dealt with accordingly.

And as a final note, something useful from Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam:

When we refer to "Islam" there are at least two specific distinct meanings implied. Firstly there is the essential Islam as the religion of all the prophets from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and until Muhammad. Secondly there is the meaning specific to the revelation given to Muhammad and all the religious instructions contained therein. We might call this the completed Islam. Essential Islam encompasses the broad principles of pure monotheism free from shirk(associating partners with God), and our moral accountability before God. The completed Islam is the full set of guidance provided through the Qur'an and the sunnah of Muhammad which abrogates the earlier rules given through previous prophets.

Both 5:69 and 3:85 refer to the essential Islam and not the completed Islam we often mean in our conversations. Once this point is understood, the apparent problem disappears.

Second, the mere historical existence of Muhammad (pbuh) does not mean that the completed Islam has reached everyone. Once the completed Islam reaches any group of people, - by which I mean that the message is adequately delivered – then they can no longer claim to be doing good if they are knowingly rejecting God's guidance in the Qur'an. Before that situation is reached, for any individual, it is quite possible that they are Muslims in the sense of following essential Islam. Just as the earliest followers of earlier prophets were.


Source - http://jamrullistan.blogspot.com/200...t-to-hell.html

But yeah, not looking good for those who have heard of Islam/Muhammad(pbuh) and still affiliate partners with the Creator.

[Ramadhan]

Ok, I'd love to know the basis to why they reject Islam. Maybe they feel there isn't enough proof?

I doubt it.
History shows again and again that orientalists etc studied Islam most of their lives from direct sources to find details what they can use to distort and attack Islam with, and they rejected Islam out of arrogance and their anger, not because they didn't know Islam is the truth.

I give you an illustration: as a muslim you should know that Shaytaan most definitely knew that Allah SWT exist (I mean, they saw Allah SWT, what more proof can you get?), they knew the power of their Creator, and yet they were so arrogant to refuse the command of Allah.

Another example: there were plenty of quraishis who were THERE when prophet Muhammad SAW was alive and produced miracles, and yet they were too arrogant to accept the truth.

I can give you endless examples.

Point is: some people are just too arrogant to accept the truth and submit even if they've been given all evidence.

[siam]

"1. Agreed 2.Well considering most of these people are non-muslim it's not very good guidance islamically 3. No excuse for what? Sure, if we make mistakes in our reasoning and fail to measure the evidence for and against Islam. Then yes we are guilty for bad reasoning but does that mean someone should spend an eternity in hell for bad reasoning? I don't have a problem with Hell it self. Just the Eternity. 4. Agreed"

"Non-Muslim" is an incorrect word to use. The Quran is very particular in the words it uses and these words have very specific meanings. We should be careful so that we can understand the truth.

In the Quran the word kaffir has a particular meaning as I have explained. The Quran is also clear that there are no 2nd chances after death----this life we have -- is it!. The word "Muslim" also has a particular meaning in the Quran---it means one who submits (to God's will) and as the Quran explains---Prophet Abraham(pbuh) was a Muslim---even though he was not a follower of Prophet Muhamed(pbuh)----therefore, the word Muslim in the Quran is connected to a state of being. Islam (submission) itself is not "new"----it is a Truth that has been given to mankind---all mankind---from the very beginning. All religions have this Truth---though it has become corrupted----and if people were to use their God-given intelligence, instead of blind belief, they would see it too as Prophet Abraham(pbuh) did.. However, as far as hell is concerned---All human beings will be held accountable for their intentions and actions---those whose good deeds are more than their bad deeds will go to heaven, those whose bad deeds are more than their good deeds will go to hell. (sincere repentence counts).

This is the passage in the Quran related to the subject .....
(Yusuf Ali translation)
Surah 19 verses 69-72 (please read the verses surrounding these on yr own)
69--Then we shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (God) Most Gracious.
70--And certainly we know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.
71--Not one of you but will pass over it: this is a decree with your Lord which must be accomplished.
72--But we shall save those who gaurded against evil, and we shall leave the wrongdoers therein (humbled) to their knees.

A person who "labels" himself "Muslim" but does not follow God's Guidance sincerely is a hypocrite---(munafiqueen).

Deen is a word usually translated as religion but more accurately describes a "life-system".
(Some scholars posit that there are 3 dimensions/states 1)Islam, 2)Iman and 3)Ihsan.)
Right belief is for the benefit of human beings---NOT a guarenteed ticket to Paradise---it must create right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all God's creations ---otherwise it is a useless label.
Time---the concept of time is also explained in the Quran itself---it is not earth-centric, but rather "God-willed". therefore terms such as "eternal" are best understood as "a long period of time as God wills" (other terms such as "Youm" translated as "Day" is best understood as "a limited period of time as God wills.")

[Sigma]

Abdul Fattah also made a great answer at Islamic Life

[Saad17]

Simple concept of sin

Sin is disobedience to God but its not a sin if you accidentally killed someone, or in anger punched someone in the face or stole some food because you were hungry.

Sin only comes when you know that you are doing a sin. Let me ask, how can you lie when you don't even know the truth? e.g I left a ball in a basket, my brother came and took the ball and went away , my friend asked for the ball so I said that its in the basket and when my friend didn't find the ball in the basket and then he said "You're liar, there is no ball here" , was that be fair? Of course not! I was telling the truth and If I knew that the ball wasn't there yet still told him that it was then I would be the liar.

More simple case is that of our forefather Adam (PBUH).

Allah: O Adam, eat and go where ever you may but do not eat from this tree.

Satan: O Adam, eat from this tree and you will become immortal.

So heres Adam (PBUH) is in two choices, he could obey his Lord or he could obey his desires and whoever obeyed his desires,followed the footstep of Satan is in the Hell fire. Adam (PBUH) ate the fruit while he knew that Allah told him not to, Allah was teaching Adam (PBUH) not to follow his own desires or you will end up in Hell. Adam (PBUH) then admitted his mistake and repented so Allah forgave, this is the Mercy of Allah however when Satan disobeyed Allah and showed arrogance, Satan did not repent because he was arrogant so he did not admit he was in error and everyone knows that Allah dislikes arrogance, especially in His presence and Satan knew it well but he disbelieved and thus became the accursed but if only he repented then Allah would have forgave him as well. Thats why Allah says that sin has no excuse, just admit you disobeyed your Lord and He will forgive you.

[Hiroshi]

Peace,

"Only the Muslims in Hell are granted any intercession."

That's ignorance, if you read this topic, did you not see the part about the people who have never "heard of Islam" before?

Think your mixing religions up where in one all go straight to Heaven on a single statement and the rest don't. The answer to this direct question isn't as straightforward, there are Scholars with different opinions on the matter. Anyways, God knows his Creation better then Man does. This is a good article -
Do non-Muslims go straight to hell?


Most people think (rightly or wrongly) that Islam is an exclusive religion. The thinking goes: You either believe in it or you don't. Anyone who doesn't, will suffer punishment. That punishment will most likely be the Hellfire.

Or the thinking goes: Hold on, what about all the really good people who were (or are) non-Muslim. Mother Teresa, Mahathma Gandhi, and so on, did countless good things for humanity. Will all their good deeds go to waste just because they weren't Muslims?

But what is the answer? Does Islam say that all non-Muslims will go to hell?

This post is not to say that the answer is "Yes, they're all gonna be punished" or "No, God is Love, the good people will be ok". This post is merely to give food for thought, and, if it makes any conclusion at all, will be to say "Don't know for sure, but not necessarily".

People cite different verses from the Qur'an to present their particular view point.

Let's take a look at a few (please note that for in-depth Quranic exegesis please refer to qualified Quranic scholars):

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve."
(Holy Qur'an 2:62 and (almost identical in) 5:69)

This seems to indicate that salvation is dependent upon three conditions only: Belief in God, Belief in the Day of Judgement, and righteous or good deeds.

What about Mother Teresa and her ilk of righteous non-Muslims?

"Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it."
(Holy Qur'an 99:7-8)

This verse suggests "anyone" or everyone will be rewarded for their good and bad actions. But will they go to Heaven or Hell? Allah hu Alim.

Another argument put forward is that, only those who have received a full and complete understanding of Islam will be judged by their acceptance(Muslim) or rejection (kufr) of it. If they haven't received this complete understanding of Islam then they will be tested on Judgement Day, and dealt with accordingly.

And as a final note, something useful from Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam:

When we refer to "Islam" there are at least two specific distinct meanings implied. Firstly there is the essential Islam as the religion of all the prophets from Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and until Muhammad. Secondly there is the meaning specific to the revelation given to Muhammad and all the religious instructions contained therein. We might call this the completed Islam. Essential Islam encompasses the broad principles of pure monotheism free from shirk(associating partners with God), and our moral accountability before God. The completed Islam is the full set of guidance provided through the Qur'an and the sunnah of Muhammad which abrogates the earlier rules given through previous prophets.

Both 5:69 and 3:85 refer to the essential Islam and not the completed Islam we often mean in our conversations. Once this point is understood, the apparent problem disappears.

Second, the mere historical existence of Muhammad (pbuh) does not mean that the completed Islam has reached everyone. Once the completed Islam reaches any group of people, - by which I mean that the message is adequately delivered – then they can no longer claim to be doing good if they are knowingly rejecting God's guidance in the Qur'an. Before that situation is reached, for any individual, it is quite possible that they are Muslims in the sense of following essential Islam. Just as the earliest followers of earlier prophets were.


Source - http://jamrullistan.blogspot.com/200...t-to-hell.html

But yeah, not looking good for those who have heard of Islam/Muhammad(pbuh) and still affiliate partners with the Creator.

That paints a much brighter picture. Thank you for those references. As I read it now, Surah 2:62 does seem to hold out hope for the Jews and Christians. However, my Saheeh International Qur'an reads here: "Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)] - those [among them] who ... " etc. This seems to refer rather then to Muslims who converted from Judaism and Christianity. A footnote to this verse then says: "After the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) no religion other than Islam is acceptable to Allah, as stated in 3:85."

[Sigma]

If Islam is true, only Allah knows your fate. It depends on your reasons for rejecting Islam really and only you know what they are.

[Perseveranze]

That paints a much brighter picture. Thank you for those references. As I read it now, Surah 2:62 does seem to hold out hope for the Jews and Christians. However, my Saheeh International Qur'an reads here: "Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)] - those [among them] who ... " etc. This seems to refer rather then to Muslims who converted from Judaism and Christianity. A footnote to this verse then says: "After the coming of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) no religion other than Islam is acceptable to Allah, as stated in 3:85."

Peace,

I'm not someone to judge on this matter regarding Christian or Jews and what their status in the afterlife will be. I am sure there's punishment for giving partners to God, which is probably the most important aspect of Islam, that God is but One. Regarding the translation, I don't see where it says were ...

Yusuf Ali:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Zohurul Hoque:

Surely as to those who believe, and those who Judaize, and the Christians, and the Sabians- whoever believes in Allah and the Future Day, and does good,- for such, then, their reward is in the presence of their Rabb; and there is no fear on them, nor will they grieve.

T. J. Irving:

Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans, [in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lie upon them nor need they feel saddened.

T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

M. Pickthall:

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

M.H. Shakir:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

[Hiroshi]

Peace,

I'm not someone to judge on this matter regarding Christian or Jews and what their status in the afterlife will be. I am sure there's punishment for giving partners to God, which is probably the most important aspect of Islam, that God is but One. Regarding the translation, I don't see where it says were ...

Yusuf Ali:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Zohurul Hoque:

Surely as to those who believe, and those who Judaize, and the Christians, and the Sabians- whoever believes in Allah and the Future Day, and does good,- for such, then, their reward is in the presence of their Rabb; and there is no fear on them, nor will they grieve.

T. J. Irving:

Those who believe and those who are Jews, Christians and Sabeans, [in fact] anyone who believes in God and the Last Day, and acts honorably will receive their earnings from their Lord: no fear will lie upon them nor need they feel saddened.

T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

M. Pickthall:

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

M.H. Shakir:

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the f Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

Maybe the Saheeh International version is wrong then.

But it definitely says: "Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."


See:

http://quran.com/2

[AabiruSabeel]

:sl:

From Tafsir Ma'ariful Qur'an:

Surely, those who believed in Allah, and those who became Jewish, and Christians, and the Sabeans — whosoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day, and does good deeds - for them, with their Lord, is their reward, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (Surah Al-Baqarah, Verse 62)

The previous verse spoke of how the Israelites drew upon themselves the wrath of Allah through their habitual insolence and disobedience. Now, this account may lead the listeners, or the Jews themselves, to suppose that, in view of such transgression, their Taubah (repentance), if they agree to offer it, would not be acceptable to Allah. In order to dispel such a misgiving, the present verse lays down a general principle: no matter how a man has been behaving earlier, so long as he submits himself fully to the commandments of Allah in his beliefs and in his deeds both, he is acceptable to Allah, and will get his reward. It is obvious enough that after the revelation of the Holy Qur'an, which is the last message of Allah, perfect obedience to Allah can only mean accepting Islam and following the Last Prophet Muhammad :saws1: [see footnote].

The verse, in effect, assures everyone that once a man has accepted Islam, all his former transgressions, whether in the matter of beliefs or in that of deeds, will be forgiven, and he will become worthy of receiving the rewards of the other world.
Let us note, in passing, that nothing is definitely known as to the beliefs and the practices of the Sabeans, and different opinions have been expressed on the subject. (Most probably they used to worship the stars).

One might also ask why the verse mentions the Muslims, for if it is an invitation to Islam, there is no need to extend the invitation to those who have already accepted Islam. But if we keep in mind the richly concentrated style of the Holy Qur'an, and try to look beyond the literal sense of the words into the implications and suggestions contained in the verse, we would find that the inclusion of the Muslim factor has added a new dimension to the meaning. It is as if a king should, in a similar situation, say that his laws are impartially applicable to all his subjects, and that whosoever obeys them shall receive his reward for obedience irrespective of whether he has earlier been a friend or a foe. Obviously, the friend has always been loyal and obedient, and the warning and the promise have really been addressed to the foe. But the suggestion contained in such a formulation is that the favours of the king do not proceed from any personal attachment to the friends, but depend on the quality of obedience and loyalty, and hence the foes too will become worthy of his favours if they acquire the necessary quality. This is the raison d'etre of mentioning the Muslims along with the non-Muslims in this verse, which should never be taken to imply that salvation can be attained without accepting Islam.

We had better dispel another misunderstanding which is likely to arise from the wordings of the present verse — and, which is actually being promoted by certain 'modernizers'. The verse mentions only two articles of faith of the Islamic creed — faith in Allah and faith in the Day of Judgment. This should not be taken to mean that in order to attain salvation it is enough to have faith only in Allah and in the Day of Judgment. For, the Holy Qur'an repeatedly declares that he who does not believe in the prophets, in angels and in the Books of Allah is not a Muslim. Faith in Allah is the first article in the Islamic creed, while faith in the Day of Judgment is the last. By mentioning only these two, the verse intends to say in a succinct manner that it is necessary to have faith in all the articles of the creed, from the first to the last. Moreover, it is through the prophets and the Books of Allah alone that man can acquire any knowledge of the essence and the attributes of Allah and of what is to happen on the Day of Judgment, while the Books of Allah are revealed to the prophets through an angel. So, it is not possible to have faith in Allah and the Day of Judgment until and unless one has faith in the angels, in the Books of Allah and in the prophets.

Footnote:
[1] Contrary to the flaccid fancies of some "modernizers" who are very happy with themselves over their "liberalism" and "tolerance", the present verse does not open the way to salvation for each and every "man of good will" irrespective of the creed he follows. If one reads the verse in its proper context and along with other relevant verses of the Holy Qur'an, one will easily see that the verse, in fact, promises salvation in the other world only to those who accept Islam. It is an invitation to Islam extended to the Jews, the Christians, the Sabeans and, as a matter of fact, to the followers of all possible religions, and even to non-believers --specific names only serve as examples.

------------------ ------------------ ------------------ ------------------

From Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer

`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day)
that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

[وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ]

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).

This statement by Ibn `Abbas RadhiyAllahu 'Anh indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad :saws1: that is, after Allah sent Muhammad :saws1:. Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

[Jibrael]

Maybe the Saheeh International version is wrong then.

But it definitely says: "Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."


See:

The Saheeh International is not a "word-for-word" literal translation, rather it is interpreting the meaning of the Quran, in light of other verses of the Quraan as well as the Authentic Hadeeth.

Every sect has their own interpretation of the Quran, but the Ahlul Hadeeth (followers of Hadeeth) always interpret the Quraan in light of the Hadeeth (sayings of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم). That is why the translation says "those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans".

However, after the advent of the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, Jews, Christians or Sabeans can only be given salvation and entry into Heaven by believing in his message and following his Sunnah (way). The ways and divine laws of all previous prophets have been abrogated, and superseded by the revelation sent down to the Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم.

[Jibrael]

Furthermore, the verse should not be construed to mean that all Jews, Christians, and Sabeans who came before were granted salvation, because three conditions are made, 1) that they believe in Allaah, and 2) believed in the Last Day, and 3) did good deeds.

By believing in Allaah means believing in Him alone, not setting up partners with him. Therefore, those Jews and Christians who violated their belief in Allaah by worshiping idols, such as the golden calf, or the Christians who believed Jesus عليه السلام to be Allaah, are not to be included.

[Hiroshi]

:sl:



From Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer

`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

[إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ]

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day)
that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

[وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ]

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85).

This statement by Ibn `Abbas RadhiyAllahu 'Anh indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad :saws1: that is, after Allah sent Muhammad :saws1:. Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.

Do not some Muslim authorities say that Surah 2:62 has been abrogated by Surah 3:85 and Surah 9:5? Perhaps that would settle this question.

[Darth Ultor]

I am not sure where I read this but I came across a Muslim teaching that those who say there is no god but God are not eternally ****ed.

[Sigma]

I am not sure where I read this but I came across a Muslim teaching that those who say there is no god but God are not eternally ****ed.

At the end of the day it's up to Allah. It depends on the person's intentions and their access to information. If someone is sincere in finding Allah but is presented with incorrect information and thus reaches the conclusion that God does not exist. They can't really be blamed for it and Allah may have mercy on them. So Allah knows best at the end of the day. None us can claim all non-muslims will go to hell. As some will go to heaven by Allah's mercy.

[Hiroshi]

Furthermore, the verse should not be construed to mean that all Jews, Christians, and Sabeans who came before were granted salvation, because three conditions are made, 1) that they believe in Allaah, and 2) believed in the Last Day, and 3) did good deeds.

By believing in Allaah means believing in Him alone, not setting up partners with him. Therefore, those Jews and Christians who violated their belief in Allaah by worshiping idols, such as the golden calf, or the Christians who believed Jesus عليه السلام to be Allaah, are not to be included.

In my post #45 to AabiruSabeel I asked if Surah 2:62 had been abrogated. But if we can say for certain that no Islamic authority has ever said that the verse has been abrogated then here is another thought.

Surah 9:29 shows that if Jews and Christians acknowledged the superiority of Islam by paying the jizyah tax then they were allowed to keep their religion. Why? Surely this shows that Christians and Jews were to some degree accepted, or at least tolerated, under Islamic supervision. Does that not also then show that Jews and Christians are to some degree acceptable to Allah according to Islamic theology?

[Muhaba]

I don't think there is any sane person on this earth who realises Islam is true but rejects it. Anyone who rejects Islam knowing it is true is insane (this is a fact, it's like someone rejecting 2+2=4). So, I think the explanation of "Only people who knowingly reject Islam will go to hell forever," is nonsense. So, you're telling me Allah will torture madmen for all eternity? What would be the point of that?

There are many people who reject islam after realizing it is true for different reasons. some reject it because of family relations, some because of worldy goods, money or status, etc. & some because of pride. This is a known fact. Pharoah knew that Prophet Moses was really the prophet of God but he still rejected him. People at the time of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) rejected him either because they didn't want to give up worldly goods that they n\knew they would have to give up, or because the Prophet (SAW) was from a different tribe. Abu Jahl once said that because the Prophet (SAW) was from the Quraish tribe, that he would never believe in him. (Abu Jahl said that everything the quraish did, Abu Jahl's tribe also did, but now a prophet was raised among the Quraish and that since one couldn't be raised from Abu Jahl's tribe, therefore Abu Jahl would never believe.)

Even today many people know that Islam is the truth but don't believe in it. There are some muslims as well who knowingly reject some commands of Islam although they know what the punishment is for rejecting them.

so it is true that people knowingly reject islam after realizing it is true.

[Hiroshi]

Doesn't even the Qur'an say that the righteous will inherit the earth (Surah 21:105)?

Its referring to the believers that God has decreed in the Psalm that His righteous servants shall inherit the earth, this mean that those who oppose God and His servants will be the losers, God will make His servants inherit the earth and make them the rulers such as Muhammad (PBUH).

One more word on this question if I am allowed to.

Surah 39:73-74 calls this inherited earth "Paradise". Isn't this where you expect to dwell forever? The quoted Psalm 37:29 says that the righteous would inherit the earth and dwell in it forever.

[Hiroshi]

I have just noticed this: my version of the Qur’an by Al-Hilali and Khan has this footnote to Surah 2:62:

This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur’an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85: “And whosoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter, he will be one of the losers.”


If Surah 2:62 has been abrogated (I wondered if it had) why is everyone so concerned about what it means? It has been cancelled. End of discussion, right?

[selsebil]

Assalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh,

There is no sin that cannot be forgiven after repentance. However, we cannot know whether the sin will be forgiven or not. Allah might or might not forgive the sin after repentance. The repentance should have the conditions of veniality. Allah promises that he will accept the repentance if it is done properly.

As for the sins that are not repented, associating partners to Allah (shirk) will never be forgiven. The sins other than shirk can be forgiven.

Some of the major sins are as follows: to associate partners with Allah, to kill somebody, to slander someone that he/she has fornicated, to commit fornication, to escape from Islamic jihad, to cast a spell, to spend an orphan’s money on one’s own needs, to disobey one’s parents, to commit a sin in the haram region of Makkah, to get and spend interest or usury, to steal, to drink alcohol, to gamble. If a Muslim commits a major sin, he is not regarded to have exited Islam as a believer unless he despises or ignores it. Ahl as-Sunnah scholars hold the view that a Muslim who commits a major sin will not exit Islam and he will not stay in Hell forever; they say that even if a Muslim dies without repenting, Allah will forgive him out of His generosity; and that if He wishes, He will torture him in Hell due to His justice (Sharhu Aqidati't-Tahawiyya p. 370).

The greatest major sin is not to accept Allah and to associate partners with Him in terms of His personality, attributes and deeds. It is called the greatest major sin. "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with him; but He forgiveth anything, else to whom He pleaseth" (an-Nisa, 4/48). It is not permissible to despair of the mercy of Allah and to continue committing sins or to commit sins without repenting and without being afraid of His torture. No matter how many sins a believer commits, he should be between fear and hope and he should not turn away from his Lord. "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful “(az-Zumar, 39/53) ”(Tell My servants) that My Penalty will be indeed the most grievous Penalty" (al-Hijr, I5/50).
Some Muslims may enter heaven after a punishment in hell, if their sins are superior than virtues.Allahu a'lim!

[Jibreel123]

Are non-Muslims condemned to Hell even if they did good and seem to have been genuinely pious?

Answered by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani


Are non-Muslims condemned to Hell even if they did good and seem to have been genuinely pious?



In the Name of Allah, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May Allah's peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his folk, companions, and followers

Walaikum assalam wa rahmatullah,

I pray that this finds you well, and in the best of health and spirits. May Allah grant you all good and success in this life and the next. Please keep me in your duas.

Allah Most High tells us in the Qur'an,

"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life." (Qur'an 3:85)

This is conditioned by His words,

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger." (Qur'an 17:15)

Shaykh Adib Kallas, a leading Damascene scholar and theologian, put it very well:

"We know that those who reject faith (man aba) are in Hell. It is not decisively established what exactly entails rejection of faith -- this is why the scholars of Sunni Islam differed. As for the details, we should concern ourselves with our own fate: Allah will ask us about ourselves, not about what He should do with others."



Ultimately, if (a) the message of Islam reached someone; and (b) they rejected it, then the verses and hadiths about being eternally in Hell would apply. At the level of individuals, it is a major question as to what reaching and rejecting entail. This is why we cannot judge whether individual non-Muslims are in Hell -- or, for that matter, in Heaven.



Rather, we consign their affair to Allah the Merciful and Just, while affirming the above.

[Abu-Abdullah]

AlHamdulillah dear brothers and sisters, I have been looking into this issue for quite some time now and I think i just might be able to give you all a rather definitive view as to the stance of mainstream Islam on it.

basically from what i have seen, mainstream Islam [sunni Islam whcih is adhered to by about 85-90 % of the Muslims] has two strong views on it, but what the Scholars say is that out of such theological views only one can turn out to be correct on the Day of Judgement, unlike the views on jurisrudence which allows all differences of opinions within the boundaries of Islam to be correct for their adherants, so regarding these two views, we can only wait to see which of them will be correct

one view as stated by many here, is that only those who have reached the message of Islam and theirafter who die as non-muslims will die as the rejectors of faith that will remain in hell for all eternity and thsoe who have not been reached by the message are iether excused or will be put to a test on the day of judgement; this is the Ashari view; one of the two creedal schools whcih maeks up mainstream islam

The other school; Maturidi say basically the same as the above view but also say that out of those who have not been reached by the message, only the monothiests [i.e those who believe in Allah without partners] out of them will be saved, for monothiesm is reachable by intellect alone

thus since their are these two somewhat different views regarding this issue. I think the most cautious approach is to try our best to save all non-Muslims [and ourselves ofcourse!] as they could all be heading for an eternity to hell if they should die without being Muslims, as this fatwa shows:


Q. regarding a hanafi choosing an aqeeda; maturidi or ashari? he wants to choose ashari as non muslims will enter paradise; this the question

and the answer given to this is

As-salaamu Alaykum

I first would like to correct you in saying that the Ash'ari school of
thought does not say that the nonMuslims will go to Jannah. But it
says that it is possible for Allah to send them to Jannah (which means
going against His Word that he will never forgive them). The Maturidi
school of though says that it is not possible for not muslims to go to
Jannah as that would entail Allah going against His Word and this is
not possible.

At the end of the entire arguement both schools of thought concede
that the nonMuslims will never enter paradise. There is a third
opinion amongst the scholars that Allah will not allow the nonMuslims
to enter Jannah but He through His mercy will end their torment by
erasing their existance. This view however is extremely weak as in the
Qur'an the words Daaiman Abadan have been used for their staying in
Hell also (Surah Jinn).

Ultimately it would not make a difference in what your friend would
want to believe as the Qur'an is the final word on this. My sincere
hope is that his family accepts Islam and thus save themselves from
Hell. My only advice is that he continues to make effort in showing
them that Islam is the true religion. If Allah wills they will accept.

MAy Allah guide us all.

Was-salaam

Mufti Ebrahim Moosa



Now here are some evidences of both views:

Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam? This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities:


(1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Qur'an 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.


The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa.

(2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48).

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

[above by shaykh Nuh keller]



the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: Four will present excuses on the Day of Resurrection: The deaf one, the idiot, the senile old man, and the one who died in Fatra (the time between Prophets). The first will say, I didn't hear anything; the second, Islam came and street-children were throwing dung at me; the third, Islam came and I did not have my wits about me, and the fourth: my Lord, no Messenger came to me. Allah will Himself take their covenant to obey Him. They will be told to enter the fire (as a test). Those who obey will find it cool and safe, while those who refuse will be dragged to it. (Aswad, Abu Hurayra)


Al-Bazzar and al-Tirmidhi who graded it hasan narrated that the Prophet said, upon him blessings and peace: The one who died in Fatra, the retard, and the infant will say respectively: No Book or Messenger reached me; You gave me no mind wherewith to understand good or evil; I did not have a chance to do anything. A fire will be presented to them and they will be told to enter it. Those who would have done well in life will obey and enter it (temporarily) while those who would have disobeyed in life will refuse. Allah will tell them: You disobey Me (seeing Me), so how could you obey My Messengers in My absence? (Abu Sa`id al-Khudri)
................................



The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
Islam is the religion of all Prophets, Adam to Muhammad. Children are not born out of any sin, original, inherited or derived. They are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.

RECOGNITION OF ALLAH

The question which arises here is, "How can all people be expected to believe in Allah given their varying- backgrounds, societies and cultures? For people to be responsible for worshipping Allah they all have to have access to knowledge of Allah. The final revelation teaches that all mankind have the recognition of Allah imprinted on their souls, a part of their very nature with which they are created.

In Soorah Al-A'raaf, Verses 172-173; Allah explained that when He created Adam, He caused all of Adam's descendants to come into existence and took a pledge from them saying, Am I not your Lord? To which they all replied, " Yes, we testify to It:'

Allah then explained why He had all of mankind bear witness that He is their creator and only true God worthy of worship. He said, "That was In case you (mankind) should say on the day of Resurrection, "Verily we were unaware of all this." That is to say, we had no idea that You Allah, were our God. No one told us that we were only supposed to worship You alone. Allah went on to explain That it was also In case you should say, "Certainly It was our ancestors who made partners (With Allah) and we are only their descendants; will You then destroy us for what those liars did?" Thus, every child is born with a natural belief in Allah and an inborn inclination to worship Him alone called in Arabic the "Fitrah".

If the child were left alone, he would worship Allah in his own way, but all children are affected by those things around them, seen or unseen.

The Prophet (PBUH) reported that Allah said, "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray". The Prophet (PBUH) also said, "Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" (Collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).

So, just as the child submits to the physical laws which Allah has put in nature, his soul also submits naturally to the fact that Allah is his Lord and Creator. But, his parents try to make him follow their own way and the child is not strong enough in the early stages of his life to resist or oppose the will of his parents. The religion which the child follows at this stage is one of custom and upbringing and Allah does not hold him to account or punish him for this religion. (By Abu Ameena Bilal Phillips )

[Sigma]

I was debating someone with regards to this problem and have stumbled upon a hitch.

The person pointed out his verse:- 4:93 But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

Now the problem is, Murder is a finite crime. The murderer takes away x amount of the murdered persons life span. Also, the grief caused to family members is finite as it will only last until their death. Therefore, punishing murder with infinite punishment is unjust.

What do you guys think?

[Darth Ultor]

There is no crime against man that is worse than murder except maybe betrayal. And I mean betrayal of the heart. You can give back stolen money or a stolen item. You can apologize to your parents if you disrespected them but you can never bring back someone whom you have killed.

[M.I.A.]

I was debating someone with regards to this problem and have stumbled upon a hitch.

The person pointed out his verse:- 4:93 But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

Now the problem is, Murder is a finite crime. The murderer takes away x amount of the murdered persons life span. Also, the grief caused to family members is finite as it will only last until their death. Therefore, punishing murder with infinite punishment is unjust.

What do you guys think?

we are all expendable in the eyes of god, he does not need us for anything.

the punishment is for intent.. and that intent can be infinite.

remorse, repentence those things may have an effect.. maybe it is a vehicle for change within the murderers life, i do not know.

those that do die are well within the grasp of there lord.

[Abu-Abdullah]

I was debating someone with regards to this problem and have stumbled upon a hitch.

The person pointed out his verse:- 4:93 But whoever kills a believer intentionally - his recompense is Hell, wherein he will abide eternally, and Allah has become angry with him and has cursed him and has prepared for him a great punishment.

Now the problem is, Murder is a finite crime. The murderer takes away x amount of the murdered persons life span. Also, the grief caused to family members is finite as it will only last until their death. Therefore, punishing murder with infinite punishment is unjust.

What do you guys think?

like most verses of the Quran?, this one has to be put into context too with other verses, thus we know that an eternal punishment will not apply to any one dying as a believer, for all believers come out of hell one time or another


and the above verse contains a THREAT of punishment, that is IF Allah does not forgive and decides to punish, for he may choose to forgive any believer at His descretion

also the above verse may apply to any Muslim that intentionally kills a believer thinking that such an action is allowed, for then that will be kufr [for he has made the haraam halaal for himself] and thereafter who dies while not having repented from the desbelief, and this is the same as a desbeliever remaining in hell forever

[Salahudeen]

Every believer will come out of paradise eventually, but as I understand it a believer is classed as someone who establishes the 5 pillars, if a person just utters the shahaddah and doesn't establish the religion but calls himself a Muslim will he also be put in the jannah eventually? Because today we have many Muslims who utter shahaddda and refer to themselves Muslims but they do not even implement the 5 pillars.

[Abu-Abdullah]

Every believer will come out of paradise eventually, but as I understand it a believer is classed as someone who establishes the 5 pillars, if a person just utters the shahaddah and doesn't establish the religion but calls himself a Muslim will he also be put in the jannah eventually? Because today we have many Muslims who utter shahaddda and refer to themselves Muslims but they do not even implement the 5 pillars.

:sl:


as long as a person believes in the shahadah in his heart, he is a believer allthough he may not do any more good deeds after that, but ofcourse such a thing is not advisable for he will be a grave sinner and will probably end up in hell [may ALlah save us all from that ameen] thus the only safe way for a believer is to establish the five pillars too and hold fast to the Quran and Sunnah

I think imam Ahmed is of the view that one who dont do his salaah is a kaafir, but the majority of scholars disagree with this and say that he still is a believer as long as he has not renounced his belief in shahadah

there is a hadith where a person on the day of Judgement will have 99? books full of evil deeds and one page of them books will be as long as the eye can see and he will have only one good deed and that is one day in his life he would have said the shahadah; the man will say to ALlah, oh ALlah what good will one good deed do against the countless bad ones, you might as well throw me in hell now without weighing them; ALlah will say, 'no injustice will be done to you this day', and the 99 books of bad deeds will be put on one scale and the shahadah will be put on the other; as soon as the shahadah touches the scale, the 99 books in the other scale will fly out and ALlah will say to the angels to show the man the way to paradise

so therefore we should not despair for any believer that dies, no matter how great a sinner he may have been

here is the relevent Aqeedah point:

1. Those of the Ummah of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who have committed grave sins will be in the Fire, but not forever, provided they die and meet Allah as believers affirming His unity even if they have not repented. They are subject to His will and judgement. If He wants, He will forgive them and pardon them out of His generosity, as is mentionied in the Qur'an when He says:
   
   `And He forgives anything less than that (shirk) to whoever He wills' (al-Nisa' 4: 116);
   and if He wants, He will punish them in the Fire out of His justice and then bring them out of the Fire through His mercy, and for the intercession of those who were obedient to Him, and send them to the Garden. This is because Allah is the Protector of those who recognize Him and will not treat them in the Next World in the same way as He treats those who deny Him and who are bereft of His guidance and have failed to obtain His protection. O Allah, You are the Protector of Islam and its people; make us firm in Islam until the day we meet You. [Aqeedah Tahawiyyah]

[Salahudeen]

^ so what you're saying is, a person can say the shahaddah and as long as he believes it in his heart, can still go to paradise eventually even if he does not pray or give zakat or establish fasting and never goes on hajj. Are you sure about this? So they can live any life they want for example going out doing zina drinking alcohol and as long as they believe in the shahaddah they will eventually go to paradise?

I have friends who believe in the shahaddah and they go out clubbing and fornicating and don't bother praying or doing other Islamic obligations yet they say "we believe in the shahaddah in our heart so we will go to paradise eventually any way" and they live a kafur life style. This does not seem right to me.

[Abu-Abdullah]

As long as they dont consider any sin as being allowed by Islam [i.e, as long as they acknowledge what Islam clarifies to be sin as sin] then yes they remain believers no matter what they do, and they eventually end up in Paradsie [but this could be after a very long time in hell!]

even though it may not seem right to you at this point brother, but as the Quran makes this abundantly clear in the verse posted earlier [i.e, ALlah forgives all sins except shirk], i would advice you to get your views in accordance with it, for who are we to disagree with ALlah?

:sl:

[Salahudeen]

As long as they dont consider any sin as being allowed by Islam [i.e, as long as they acknowledge what Islam clarifies to be sin as sin] then yes they remain believers no matter what they do, and they eventually end up in Paradsie [but this could be after a very long time in hell!]

even though it may not seem right to you at this point brother, but as the Quran makes this abundantly clear in the verse posted earlier [i.e, ALlah forgives all sins except shirk], i would advice you to get your views in accordance with it, for who are we to disagree with ALlah?

:sl:

I do not disagree with Allah, when did I say that? I asked you a question I did not disagree with you so please do not accusse me of disagreeing with Allah I find that very offensive.

I just found it odd a person can life a kafur lifestyle all his life and enter into paradise. May I ask what are the other opinions on this matter? Because I recall people telling me that actions are related to emaan.

[S.Belle]

So they can live any life they want for example going out doing zina drinking alcohol and as long as they believe in the shahaddah they will eventually go to paradise?

Abu Dharr (R.A.A) narrated from A prophet ( S.A.W ) that he said, Gabrielle came to me and gave me the tidings verily he who died amongst your nation without associating anything with Allah would enter Paradise. I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes. (Muslim)

[Salahudeen]

Abu Dharr (R.A.A) narrated from A prophet ( S.A.W ) that he said, Gabrielle came to me and gave me the tidings verily he who died amongst your nation without associating anything with Allah would enter Paradise. I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes I said: even he committed adultery and theft. He said: Yes. (Muslim)

jazakallah khair, I know Allah forgives all sins, I was just wondering about the 1 who does not even pratice the religion and worship Allah or obey him. If he is classed as a Muslim still or if his actions take him out of Islam. I am derailing this thread, I made a new one, will carry it on there.

[Uthman]

:salamext:

I think imam Ahmed is of the view that one who dont do his salaah is a kaafir, but the majority of scholars disagree with this and say that he still is a believer as long as he has not renounced his belief in shahadah

Are you sure about that, Brother? I was under the impression that the majority of scholars consider total abandonment of the Salah to render you a Non-Muslim.

:wasalamex

[Abu-Abdullah]

:salamext: Are you sure about that, Brother? I was under the impression that the majority of scholars consider total abandonment of the Salah to render you a Non-Muslim.

:wasalamex

:salamext:


yes brother, as long as they just neglect salaah and not reject it [as being obligatory]:

The proofs showing that the one who abandons the prayer, without denying its obligatory nature, remains a Muslim and is ultimately saved are the various narrations of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) that demonstrate the sufficiency of the kalima in attaining salvation.

(1) It is narrated from the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), “He who witnesses that there is no god but God, paradise is made obligatory for him.”
(Kattani in his Nazm al Mutanathir, Kitab al Iman #1. This narration is mass-transmitted in meaning (tawatur ma`nawi), as stated also in the Faydh al Qadir, by over 34 companions. Some narrations mention that “Allah will make prohibited for him the fire” while others state “Allah will make obligatory on him paradise” or “enter him into paradise”. Ibn Hajar `Asqalani in his Fath al Bari (kitab al riqaq) states that the narrations that come in the latter wordings are more emphatic than the former.)

(2) It is narrated from `Ubada ibn Samit that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “Whoever witnesses that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is His Messenger, Allah forbids the fire from touching him.”
(Bukhari and Muslim)
Ibn Hibban narrated it in his Sahih with the addition “and makes paradise obligatory for him” (#199-204). Abu Hatim states, as mentioned by Ibn Hibban, that what is meant is the least level of paradise since the level one will attain in the hereafter varies depending on one’s actions, its amount, and quality.

(3) Abu Hurayra narrates that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “Inform the people of the good news of my intercession on the Day of Judgment for he who witness that there is no god but God – sincerely with his heart.”
(Bukhari)

(4) It is narrated from Abu’l Darda’ that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “He who says there is no god but God, He is one without partners, will enter paradise.” Abu’l Darda’ said, “I said: ‘Even the adulterer and the one who steals?’” The Prophet replied, “Yes, even the adulterer and on the one who steals.”
(Ahmad, Tabarani in his Kabir and his Awsat, Bazzar in his Musnad. Ibn Hajar Haytami says in his Majma` al Zawa’id, “The chain of Ahmad is the soundest.” Also narrated by Ibn Hibban #169 and #195)
This shows clearly that committing major sins does not make one a disbeliever.


(5) The Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “Indeed he who dies witnessing that there is no god but God, one without partners, he attains paradise.”
(Tabarani in hi Kabir. Haytami says, “Its men (s: in the chain) are trustworthy.”)

(6) The Prophet said, “Whoever dies without associating partners with Allah will be granted forgiveness.”
(Tabarani in his Kabir. Haytami says, “There is no harm in the chain.” Bukhari and Muslim narrate a similar narration from Ibn Mas`ud stating “will enter paradise.”)

The Position of the Shafi`is, Malikis & Hanbalis

The ruling for the Hanafi school has been provided previously and does not differ on the issue from the other schools.

(1) The Shafi`is:

The position of the Shafi`I school is that one who abandons the prayer without denying its obligatory nature is not considered a disbeliever.
Imam Nawawi explicates this in his Al Muhadhab stating, “He who is obligated to pray and he refuses to perform it, and [also] denies its obligatory nature, he is a disbeliever.” (Kitab al Salat, bab tarak al salat wa fih masa’il)
Further, he states, “Takfir is not done on abandoning the prayer [alone] because kufr relates to belief (i`tiqad) and his belief [s: regarding the prayer being obligatory] is sound. Thus, there is no ruling on his kufr.” (Ibid)
Imam Shirazi states in his Majmu`a, “When one abandons performing the prayer and denies its obligatory nature or denies its obligation yet does not abandon its performance, he is a disbeliever and an apostate according to the consensus of the community.”
Thus, it can be seen that even if one performs the prayer without believing it to be obligatory the verdict of disbelief applies. The crux of the matter is what Imam Tahawi mentions in his `Aqida, which is:
“A person does not step out or belief except by disavowing what brought him into it.” (Line 61)
The denial of the obligatory nature of prayer is denying decisively established texts from the Qur’an and the hadith, something one must accept and believe in.

(2) The Malikis:

It is stated in Mawahib al Jalil fi Sharh Mukhtasar Khalil that the fatwa of kufr only applies to the one who denies the obligatory nature of the prayer. Otherwise, he is not considered a disbeliever but is only subjugated to the prescribed punishment.
Similarly, Ibn Abi Zayd in his Risala states, “None from the people of the qibla become non-Muslims due to their wrong actions.”
Imam `Adawi in his commentary on the Risala says, “(due to their wrong actions) such as [abandoning] prayer.” He further states, “One does not exit from belief with us due to small sins or large, as opposed to the Kharijites and Mu`atizilites.”

(3) The Hanabalis:

Ibn Qudama in his al Mughni has a lengthy discussion on the topic of abandoning prayer and concludes that the correct verdict is that he who abandons the prayer without denying its obligation remains a Muslim. His case, he says, is the same as any other person who committed a major sin, such as murder or adultery. This is the position of the majority of the scholars.

He then proceeds to explain the narrations that stipulate the disbelief of the one who abandons the prayer and states, “He resembles the disbelievers” and not that he is one of them in “reality” (haqiqatan). This is because there are many narrations that state “such and such in kufr” without entailing the exiting of one from faith. For example, the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, “Cursing a Muslim is fisq, killing him is kufr” and “Whoever addresses his brother as ‘oh disbeliever’, verily it returns to one of them” and “It is disbelief to deny ones lineage.” All of these narrations, says Ibn Qudama, mention such resemblance for the sake of emphasis and the gravity of committing certain acts. (Kitab al Salat, bab al hukm man tarak al salat)

Salman.

Approved by Faraz Rabbani


[ref: see sunnipath . com]

:wasalamex

[Tyrion]

(1) It is narrated from the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), “He who witnesses that there is no god but God, paradise is made obligatory for him.”
(Kattani in his Nazm al Mutanathir, Kitab al Iman #1. This narration is mass-transmitted in meaning (tawatur ma`nawi), as stated also in the Faydh al Qadir, by over 34 companions. Some narrations mention that “Allah will make prohibited for him the fire” while others state “Allah will make obligatory on him paradise” or “enter him into paradise”. Ibn Hajar `Asqalani in his Fath al Bari (kitab al riqaq) states that the narrations that come in the latter wordings are more emphatic than the former.)

Would this apply to those who are not Muslim? Like say, an agnostic who feels that there is one God out there, but doesn't believe in any religion?

[Uthman]

Barakallahu feek Br. Abu-Abdullah. A very detailed reply. :)

[Abu-Abdullah]

Would this apply to those who are not Muslim? Like say, an agnostic who feels that there is one God out there, but doesn't believe in any religion?

Hi Tyrion,

well in Islam it is said that not being sure of something is equivelent to not believing in it, for the person dont believe but is in an intermediary stage where they're not quite sure wether it is true or not so this is why to be a believer, one needs to be sure of Gods existence [and believe in Him] without a shred of doubt, thus just feeling that there is one God but at the same time being an agnostic [arguing that God possibly dont exist?] might not be considered as being a believer in God at all and in the hadith it says that 'he who WITNESSES...' thus just feeling in the agnostic way will not be witnessing at all, fo witnessing denotes certainty

Also believing in One God comes with conditions too, thus whoever recieves the message of islam [i.e knows what islam requires a person to believe], they have to believe in the Islamic message too and whatever it clarifies as being true and fact, thus the next fundemental belief along with One God will be to believe in Gods Messenger muhammad [saw] and thus forth

rejecting any of the fundemental beliefs of Islam [once one learns of it] is the same as rejecting Gods religion and to do that is a type of associating partners with Allah [for the person associates his own customs with Gods perogative to be worshipped as He pleases], thus the person cannot believe in true monothiesm [believing in Allah without partners] without embracing Islam and all the beliefs Islam clarifes to be decicively true...

hope this helps

:smile:

[Abu-Abdullah]

Hi Tyrion,

well in Islam it is said that not being sure of something is equivelent to not believing in it, for the person dont believe but is in an intermediary stage where they're not quite sure wether it is true or not so this is why to be a believer, one needs to be sure of Gods existence [and believe in Him] without a shred of doubt, thus just feeling that there is one God but at the same time being an agnostic [arguing that God possibly dont exist?] might not be considered as being a believer in God at all and in the hadith it says that 'he who WITNESSES...' thus just feeling in the agnostic way will not be witnessing at all, fo witnessing denotes certainty

Also believing in One God comes with conditions too, thus whoever recieves the message of islam [i.e knows what islam requires a person to believe], they have to believe in the Islamic message too and whatever it clarifies as being true and fact, thus the next fundemental belief along with One God will be to believe in Gods Messenger muhammad [saw] and thus forth

rejecting any of the fundemental beliefs of Islam [once one learns of it] is the same as rejecting Gods religion and to do that is a type of associating partners with Allah [for the person associates his own customs with Gods perogative to be worshipped as He pleases], thus the person cannot believe in true monothiesm [believing in Allah without partners] without embracing Islam and all the beliefs Islam clarifes to be decicively true...

hope this helps

:smile:

My apologies brother, didn't realise you were Muslim; should have been :sl: instead of 'Hi' :embarrass