Wanting some clarification on website I've come across

[Pak-istan786]

Hi,

So I was studying some emrbyology for my exams and I was interested in the religous view on it. I have read a few things about Islam and Science before too. After some googling I came across Keith L.Moore and T.W Sadler, who happened to be a few familiar authors. I came across this page:

Sorry,i cant post links as I'm new, but if you go on google.com and type in 'Keith L Moore Islam' and click on the first link I think, its from the website 'name of anti-Islamic site removed' and titled 'scientific errors and myths about embryology' ( along those lines)

Please have a read through the above page and if you could answer the following questions I would really appreciate it.

What is this site all about? Im really confused because it doesn't seem to be taking some things seriously( e.g. its conclusion about Jews are better than Muslims and how it mentions that everyone was wrong in comparison to modern science). Like what is this site's purpose, is what it is saying true or false?

And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)? This site is kinda confusing to me, and I just wanted some clarification. And then it goes onto talk about the 5 stages or so of development ( about the blood clots etc), is that correct? I read that Zakir Naik had a widely publicised debate( which he supposedly won) with Dr. William Campbell on this issue. It states that the 5 stages of development were common knowledge prior to the revelation of the Quran. But I dont think that is true, and the site seems to me to be a hate attack against Islam. But I was just wanting some clarification thats why.


And the fact that it goes onto mention that everyone was is wrong in comparison to modern science( which is what Dr Campbell said apparently), I mean what is this site trying to say it is sending very mixed messages!? Was this all discussed in their widely publicised debate? I havent seen it, but I have heard that Naik won, from reading about it.



Thanks

[Pak-istan786]

Sorry for the different font sizes, I didnt pay much attention to the grammar and presentation, but hopefully everything is clear! Thanks

[Woodrow]

Welcome to the forum and may all of your questions be answered.

I will just mention a few things about the site you visited. The site does preach and teach a religion that is considerably different from Islam.

Such a site will not emphasize any teaching that will support Islam. Science is a field that is very much open to interpretation of the results. while it is true, science is non biased and deals with that which can be measured, qualified and replicated. It must always be understood that the results only prove that which was measured, Any extension of scientific validation beyond what was measured and verified comes into the realm of opinion, theory and conjecture.

Never expect to get unbiased results from a site whose goal is to discredit a religious belief.

[جوري]

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Pak-istan786]

Ok thanks for the replies but Im confused a bit, I'm assuming from what you both said the site is false. And how they mention ' The Quran gives the IMPRESSION' that .... they are not being conclusive there IMO. Is there any more info you people would like to add?

If Im being honest, I've been going through tough time lately and have had all sorts of waswas going through my head, to the point where I was questioning my own religion and I wouldn't believe one website and was having to check about the bible etc, to see what they say( But I haven't spent much time as I have soo much revision to do lol). But yeh I was reading some other posts about how the Bible has no textual integrity, the Torah was corrupted by the Jews, and then I was getting confused seeing this website. So from what you people have said it has cleared some things up for me. How good is Zakir Naik in terms of all of his evidences that he provides and how he debates with other religion's major people? I do believe in Islam firmly, its when sites like these pop up and then create doubts etc. I need to have more faith inshAllah, what advice would you give in making me a stronger believer?

Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?

JazakAllah Khair

[Pak-istan786]

And Also please dont mind me asking this, but how do you all remain firm in the faith of Islam? I never want to have doubts like this ever again once this has been cleared up, I want to accept Islam firmly and understand all of its scientific truths etc, so what tips would you give me to remain steadfast in my belief?

[Perseveranze]

Peace Saffy786,

Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.

Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this - http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/al..._by_islamtoday

Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more) - http://www.quranicstudies.com/articl...mbryology.html

[GuestFellow]

And Also please dont mind me asking this, but how do you all remain firm in the faith of Islam? I never want to have doubts like this ever again once this has been cleared up, I want to accept Islam firmly and understand all of its scientific truths etc, so what tips would you give me to remain steadfast in my belief?

:sl:


I doubt all of us hold a firm faith all the time. We sometimes let our guard drop. I think you should study Islam from the beginning. Start by learning Arabic, so you will be able to read AND understand the Qur'an.

Check this website. Gives you the list of anti-Islamic websites:

Click here!

Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?

Religions

^ It's good but lacks in-depth analysis.

[Woodrow]

so what tips would you give me to remain steadfast in my belief?

for those of us who spent much of our early years as Christians and finding reason to no longer follow it, we have a very strong incentive for remaining steadfast. Once you experienced the rest you KNOW which is best. Go to the New Muslim section and read through the sticky thread of the stories of reverts. that may give you some motivation.

[Pak-istan786]

Allahu Akbar mashAllah so that means everything in that article is false? I always hear about these dodgy websites but it was only till late that I've started paying attention to all this, I wont make this mistake again!! insha Allah :) Has there ever been any person who has actually disproved/refuted anything from Islam? I dont think so Alhamdulillah

[Pak-istan786]

Yeh I suppose it must happen to everyone who was born into Islam. But some dont really pay much attention, whilst others do, everyone is different I guess. Depends on your personality types to begin, what sort of a thinker you are etc. But I'm sure everyone who is in doubt will sit down and think about it one day Insha Allah

[Pak-istan786]

for those of us who spent much of our early years as Christians and finding reason to no longer follow it, we have a very strong incentive for remaining steadfast. Once you experienced the rest you KNOW which is best. Go to the New Muslim section and read through the sticky thread of the stories of reverts. that may give you some motivation.

Yeh I suppose it must happen to everyone who was born into Islam. But some dont really pay much attention, whilst others do, everyone is different I guess. Depends on your personality types to begin, what sort of a thinker you are etc. But I'm sure everyone who is in doubt will sit down and think about it one day Insha Allah

[Perseveranze]

Ok thanks for the replies but Im confused a bit, I'm assuming from what you both said the site is false. And how they mention ' The Quran gives the IMPRESSION' that .... they are not being conclusive there IMO. Is there any more info you people would like to add?

If Im being honest, I've been going through tough time lately and have had all sorts of waswas going through my head, to the point where I was questioning my own religion and I wouldn't believe one website and was having to check about the bible etc, to see what they say( But I haven't spent much time as I have soo much revision to do lol). But yeh I was reading some other posts about how the Bible has no textual integrity, the Torah was corrupted by the Jews, and then I was getting confused seeing this website. So from what you people have said it has cleared some things up for me. How good is Zakir Naik in terms of all of his evidences that he provides and how he debates with other religion's major people? I do believe in Islam firmly, its when sites like these pop up and then create doubts etc. I need to have more faith inshAllah, what advice would you give in making me a stronger believer?

Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?

JazakAllah Khair

Asalaamu Alaikum,

You remind me of myself a few months ago. I was so close to leaving Islam, because all I ever did was go on the same websites your talking about right now and believe what they said. And if I'm honest, I was pretty much going to just end it there, but there was this thought at the back of my head that kept annoying me and bugging me. This is something that I had trouble ignoring -

1. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and so cannot have any inaccuracies within it. No Muslim in the world today will ever follow Islam if they think the Quran has an error in it, not a single one. The Quran is believed to be a everlasting miracle.

2. Keeping the above in mind, Islam is today the fastest growing religion in the world. Fair enough, but the issue is more serious when the people that are reverting to Islam are the really intelligent and smart people, like the Doctors, Scientists etc. And many of them revert because of the Quran's miracle, in particular the Scientific one. These intelligent people saw something that I wasn't seeing, they are obviously far more intelligent then I am, so why are they turning to Islam? Apart from Islam, what other religion is out there in which people turn to it for it's Scientific accuracy and proofs?

3. Around 1.6-1.7 billion people are Muslims today, amongst them are very smart people who study the Quran to the very depths. Do they see a truth in something that I do not?

4. Islam is no the easiest religion to practice, the amount of devout followers it has is unmatched. I mean, praying 5 times a day, no drinking/smoking, no sex before marraige etc. This is alot to give up, even if it does make a person a far better character. Yet I see people give up all their wealth and fame for Islam, what is going on here?

Just these kind of questions were really bugging me, to the point that I said I'm going to give it one more try and really go as deep in as I can, because if this is the truth I want to know. I mean, I wasn't going through a hard time or anything, my life was normal, I wasn't in the state of mind where I ask "whats the purpose of life" or anything (at some point I didn't even care if evolution was true or not), yet there was something about Islam that just made me want to think about life more and ask the questions I've not really cared about for the whole of my life.

Anyways, I gave up alot of my time and for months studied the Quran and Islam from the depths. I tried to look at all the refutations against Islam and this time I did something different (then before) ;

1. I looked at where the refuters were getting their sources from.
2. I looked at "what's Islam's response to this?"
3. What do Non-Muslim intilllects say about this (if they have even commented on it or not).

I tried to be as objective as possible and in the end, I was left doubtless. I hate to have to remember how gullable and close minded I was before, but I am so thankful to my Creator now and know I'll never leave Him again.

In conclusion; no one and I mean no one, has successfully come close to refuting Islam or the Quran. The Quran in particular, is something which still amazes even the Non-Muslims till this very day, especially the intellects who have shown great favouritism to it's absolute mystery. Even the life of our beloved Prophet(pbuh), no one's even been able to refute how one day a illiterate man could suddenly become the author of a book with the highest piece of Arabic literature known to man today, a Book with so many different miraclous and mystical aspects to it. How could this happen?

You know what the historian says when someone asks them, "was Muhammad(pbuh) a prophet"? They just say, "I don't know", as simple as that. And the interesting part is, they won't ever tick off the Divine intervention part, in fact they believe there's a far higher chance that there was a divine intervention than him being an imposter, but they won't ever give a definite answer since they aren't Muslims, but atleast they remain truthful when they say they can't explain how the Prophet(pbuh) was able to do what he did. What does that tell you about this all? It's the same about the Quran too lol, Scientists won't comment on it, they can't refute it so they stay away from it, however some top Scientists do make a book showing favouritism in it's divine origin.

Anyways, only Allah(swt) knows whats in my heart and how firm my belief is. But that's how it was for me, if I see something today that causes doubt i'll heavily research it from every angle. My advice to you is to do the same, use your intellect aswell, some common sense, don't fall into the trick that amatuer website's use. There's enough signs and proofs for it's validity, enough for someone who's sincere and looking for the truth to see it.

ps. You might find this interesting to read.

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

You remind me of myself a few months ago. I was so close to leaving Islam, because all I ever did was go on the same websites your talking about right now and believe what they said. And if I'm honest, I was pretty much going to just end it there, but there was this thought at the back of my head that kept annoying me and bugging me. This is something that I had trouble ignoring -

1. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and so cannot have any inaccuracies within it. No Muslim in the world today will ever follow Islam if they think the Quran has an error in it, not a single one. The Quran is believed to be a everlasting miracle.

2. Keeping the above in mind, Islam is today the fastest growing religion in the world. Fair enough, but the issue is more serious when the people that are reverting to Islam are the really intelligent and smart people, like the Doctors, Scientists etc. And many of them revert because of the Quran's miracle, in particular the Scientific one. These intelligent people saw something that I wasn't seeing, they are obviously far more intelligent then I am, so why are they turning to Islam? Apart from Islam, what other religion is out there in which people turn to it for it's Scientific accuracy and proofs?

3. Around 1.6-1.7 billion people are Muslims today, amongst them are very smart people who study the Quran to the very depths. Do they see a truth in something that I do not?

4. Islam is no the easiest religion to practice, the amount of devout followers it has is unmatched. I mean, praying 5 times a day, no drinking/smoking, no sex before marraige etc. This is alot to give up, even if it does make a person a far better character. Yet I see people give up all their wealth and fame for Islam, what is going on here?

Just these kind of questions were really bugging me, to the point that I said I'm going to give it one more try and really go as deep in as I can, because if this is the truth I want to know. I mean, I wasn't going through a hard time or anything, my life was normal, I wasn't in the state of mind where I ask "whats the purpose of life" or anything (at some point I didn't even care if evolution was true or not), yet there was something about Islam that just made me want to think about life more and ask the questions I've not really cared about for the whole of my life.

Anyways, I gave up alot of my time and for months studied the Quran and Islam from the depths. I tried to look at all the refutations against Islam and this time I did something different (then before) ;

1. I looked at where the refuters were getting their sources from.
2. I looked at "what's Islam's response to this?"
3. What do Non-Muslim intilllects say about this (if they have even commented on it or not).

I tried to be as objective as possible and in the end, I was left doubtless. I hate to have to remember how gullable and close minded I was before, but I am so thankful to my Creator now and know I'll never leave Him again.

In conclusion; no one and I mean no one, has successfully come close to refuting Islam or the Quran. The Quran in particular, is something which still amazes even the Non-Muslims till this very day, especially the intellects who have shown great favouritism to it's absolute mystery. Even the life of our beloved Prophet(pbuh), no one's even been able to refute how one day a illiterate man could suddenly become the author of a book with the highest piece of Arabic literature known to man today, a Book with so many different miraclous and mystical aspects to it. How could this happen?

You know what the historian says when someone asks them, "was Muhammad(pbuh) a prophet"? They just say, "I don't know", as simple as that. And the interesting part is, they won't ever tick off the Divine intervention part, in fact they believe there's a far higher chance that there was a divine intervention than him being an imposter, but they won't ever give a definite answer since they aren't Muslims, but atleast they remain truthful when they say they can't explain how the Prophet(pbuh) was able to do what he did. What does that tell you about this all? It's the same about the Quran too lol, Scientists won't comment on it, they can't refute it so they stay away from it, however some top Scientists do make a book showing favouritism in it's divine origin.

Anyways, only Allah(swt) knows whats in my heart and how firm my belief is. But that's how it was for me, if I see something today that causes doubt i'll heavily research it from every angle. My advice to you is to do the same, use your intellect aswell, some common sense, don't fall into the trick that amatuer website's use. There's enough signs and proofs for it's validity, enough for someone who's sincere and looking for the truth to see it.

ps. You might find this interesting.

MashAllah you have made such an uplifting and great post. There is so much relief from reading this post to me Alhamdulillah, I will hopefully try to find the time to read some of these articles after my exams, but right now I must concentrate on preparation. I had spent the last week really not being productive at all, always thinking about this like you've mentioned, but now I must focus and Insha Allah, Allah( SWT) will help me. And it's nice to know that someone else was in the same position as me too.

Hopefully this thread will remain live so that some other people could contribute their thoughts if they so wish.

JazakAllah once again

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

You remind me of myself a few months ago. I was so close to leaving Islam, because all I ever did was go on the same websites your talking about right now and believe what they said. And if I'm honest, I was pretty much going to just end it there, but there was this thought at the back of my head that kept annoying me and bugging me. This is something that I had trouble ignoring -

1. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God and so cannot have any inaccuracies within it. No Muslim in the world today will ever follow Islam if they think the Quran has an error in it, not a single one. The Quran is believed to be a everlasting miracle.

2. Keeping the above in mind, Islam is today the fastest growing religion in the world. Fair enough, but the issue is more serious when the people that are reverting to Islam are the really intelligent and smart people, like the Doctors, Scientists etc. And many of them revert because of the Quran's miracle, in particular the Scientific one. These intelligent people saw something that I wasn't seeing, they are obviously far more intelligent then I am, so why are they turning to Islam? Apart from Islam, what other religion is out there in which people turn to it for it's Scientific accuracy and proofs?

3. Around 1.6-1.7 billion people are Muslims today, amongst them are very smart people who study the Quran to the very depths. Do they see a truth in something that I do not?

4. Islam is no the easiest religion to practice, the amount of devout followers it has is unmatched. I mean, praying 5 times a day, no drinking/smoking, no sex before marraige etc. This is alot to give up, even if it does make a person a far better character. Yet I see people give up all their wealth and fame for Islam, what is going on here?

Just these kind of questions were really bugging me, to the point that I said I'm going to give it one more try and really go as deep in as I can, because if this is the truth I want to know. I mean, I wasn't going through a hard time or anything, my life was normal, I wasn't in the state of mind where I ask "whats the purpose of life" or anything (at some point I didn't even care if evolution was true or not), yet there was something about Islam that just made me want to think about life more and ask the questions I've not really cared about for the whole of my life.

Anyways, I gave up alot of my time and for months studied the Quran and Islam from the depths. I tried to look at all the refutations against Islam and this time I did something different (then before) ;

1. I looked at where the refuters were getting their sources from.
2. I looked at "what's Islam's response to this?"
3. What do Non-Muslim intilllects say about this (if they have even commented on it or not).

I tried to be as objective as possible and in the end, I was left doubtless. I hate to have to remember how gullable and close minded I was before, but I am so thankful to my Creator now and know I'll never leave Him again.

In conclusion; no one and I mean no one, has successfully come close to refuting Islam or the Quran. The Quran in particular, is something which still amazes even the Non-Muslims till this very day, especially the intellects who have shown great favouritism to it's absolute mystery. Even the life of our beloved Prophet(pbuh), no one's even been able to refute how one day a illiterate man could suddenly become the author of a book with the highest piece of Arabic literature known to man today, a Book with so many different miraclous and mystical aspects to it. How could this happen?

You know what the historian says when someone asks them, "was Muhammad(pbuh) a prophet"? They just say, "I don't know", as simple as that. And the interesting part is, they won't ever tick off the Divine intervention part, in fact they believe there's a far higher chance that there was a divine intervention than him being an imposter, but they won't ever give a definite answer since they aren't Muslims, but atleast they remain truthful when they say they can't explain how the Prophet(pbuh) was able to do what he did. What does that tell you about this all? It's the same about the Quran too lol, Scientists won't comment on it, they can't refute it so they stay away from it, however some top Scientists do make a book showing favouritism in it's divine origin.

Anyways, only Allah(swt) knows whats in my heart and how firm my belief is. But that's how it was for me, if I see something today that causes doubt i'll heavily research it from every angle. My advice to you is to do the same, use your intellect aswell, some common sense, don't fall into the trick that amatuer website's use. There's enough signs and proofs for it's validity, enough for someone who's sincere and looking for the truth to see it.

ps. You might find this.

Btw have u heard of this arabian person called 'Mondher Sfar' he wrote a book apparently called 'In search of the original Koran', what was that all about?

[Perseveranze]

Btw have u heard of this arabian person called 'Mondher Sfar' he wrote a book apparently called 'In search of the original Koran', what was that all about?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

lol this guy, I tried doing some searches on him and hardly anything has come up. His book isn't popular, he's never been taken seriously by anyone (I've just seen quotes on Christian missionary websites, the fact that most anti-islam websites have no mention of him just show the redicilous claims he must've made in the book).

I havn't read the book, so don't know what's in it. But I did get this quote -

"Reveals that there is no historical, or even theological, basis for the orthodox view that Muhammad or his earliest followers intended the Koran to be treated as the inviolable word of God."

No wonder no one has taken him seriously. If you read the Quran, the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and the Hadiths, there's more then enough overwhelming proof that the Quran was to be treated as the word of God. Why on earth would Muslims have gone through so much trouble to ensure people memorize it and write it down? Why is the Quran handled with utmost respect when holding it and reading it? Why has not another single intellectual or anyone that's significantly known for scholarly works or anything made any mention of this before? Why didn't Muslims, memorize hadiths? Anyways, stuff like this should not bother you, it's almost like insulting your own intelligence if you gave people like this any attention, such baseless and stupid claims, that not even Islam haters have acknowledged, shows how desperate for attention some people are.

Edit: This made me laugh;

"The revealed text should not be equated with the perfect text of the original celestial Koran; which was believed to exist only in heaven and to be fully known only by God."

Lol.

[Ramadhan]

Is there any good sources where it explains all the differences between islam and christianity etc?

some good islamic websites that may suit your needs:
http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/index.htm
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/home
http://www.amjaonline.com/
http://islam101.net/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/


whats more important, however, is to affirm your shahada. Shahada is not just proclaiming that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad SAW is His messenger, you really have to believe in it (eeman).
Everything else flows from shahada.
If you have firm shahada you would know that christianity is false religion because it teaches to believe in jesus (as) and worship him as god. Whatever mentioned in the bible do not matter anymore.

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

lol this guy, I tried doing some searches on him and hardly anything has come up. His book isn't popular, he's never been taken seriously by anyone (I've just seen quotes on Christian missionary websites, the fact that most anti-islam websites have no mention of him just show the redicilous claims he must've made in the book).

I havn't read the book, so don't know what's in it. But I did get this quote -

"Reveals that there is no historical, or even theological, basis for the orthodox view that Muhammad or his earliest followers intended the Koran to be treated as the inviolable word of God."

No wonder no one has taken him seriously. If you read the Quran, the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and the Hadiths, there's more then enough overwhelming proof that the Quran was to be treated as the word of God. Why on earth would Muslims have gone through so much trouble to ensure people memorize it and write it down? Why is the Quran handled with utmost respect when holding it and reading it? Why has not another single intellectual or anyone that's significantly known for scholarly works or anything made any mention of this before? Why didn't Muslims, memorize hadiths? Anyways, stuff like this should not bother you, it's almost like insulting your own intelligence if you gave people like this any attention, such baseless and stupid claims, that not even Islam haters have acknowledged, shows how desperate for attention some people are.

Edit: This made me laugh;

"The revealed text should not be equated with the perfect text of the original celestial Koran; which was believed to exist only in heaven and to be fully known only by God."

Lol.

Out of curiosity, In the original article I had posted the google link for, what is their discussion about Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya all about, have they wrote something dodgy there? I was interested but dont have the time to search it all up so dont mind lol

and this just takes the biscuit lol:

"Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)"

How can they even say that they have no way interpreted it correctly, and assumed that one mans interpretation is fine lol

[- Qatada -]

Out of curiosity, In the original article I had posted the google link for, what is their discussion about Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya all about, have they wrote something dodgy there? I was interested but dont have the time to search it all up so dont mind lol

and this just takes the biscuit lol:

"Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)"

How can they even say that they have no way interpreted it correctly, and assumed that one mans interpretation is fine lol

:salamext:


see;
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/showthread.php?t=2602



As for the proper definition of sulb in the context of this verse [of surah Tariq 88:6-7], it is ‘loins’ and NOT backbone. Shaykh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî of IslamToday.com writes:

The word “sulb” should not necessarily be translated as “backbone”. This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Prohibited to you (for marriage) are…wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins.



Dictionaries define Sulb as Loins/private parts :

We refer the reader to p.226 of The Concise Oxford English Arabic Dictionary. The English word ‘loins’ is translated as ‘sulb’. (source: http://www.amazon.com/Concise-Oxford.../dp/0198643217 )

We refer the reader to p.231 of Hippocrene Standard Dictionary Arabic-English English-Arabic by John Wortabet, in which once again, the only definition of the word loins is ‘sulb’. (source: http://www.amazon.com/Hippocrene-Dic...6200382&sr=1-1)


It is a simple matter of driving down to Barnes and Noble or another bookstore to verify these definitions. But if the reader is too lazy to do that, here is an online reference. On p.146 of An English and Arabic Dictionary by Joseph Catafago, notice that the only definition given for the word ‘salbi’ is ‘proceeding from the loins’. (click here to view: http://books.google.com/books?id=42o...=5&ct =result)

Here is another online reference: on p.791 of A Comprehensive Persian English Dictionary: Including the Arabic Words, we see that the first definition of the word ‘sulbi’ is ‘proceeding from the loins’. (click here: http://books.google.com/books?id=knA...um=4&ct=result)

[Perseveranze]

Out of curiosity, In the original article I had posted the google link for, what is their discussion about Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya all about, have they wrote something dodgy there? I was interested but dont have the time to search it all up so dont mind lol

and this just takes the biscuit lol:

"Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)"

How can they even say that they have no way interpreted it correctly, and assumed that one mans interpretation is fine lol

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Watch this for the backbone clarification -

[- Qatada -]

Hi,

And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)? This site is kinda confusing to me, and I just wanted some clarification. And then it goes onto talk about the 5 stages or so of development ( about the blood clots etc), is that correct? I read that Zakir Naik had a widely publicised debate( which he supposedly won) with Dr. William Campbell on this issue. It states that the 5 stages of development were common knowledge prior to the revelation of the Quran. But I dont think that is true, and the site seems to me to be a hate attack against Islam. But I was just wanting some clarification thats why.

Thanks

:salamext:


Bones grow first in the embryo or muscles?

Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?

Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.

Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.

Paul Szauter
Mouse Genome Informatics
Reference: Scott F. Gilbert Developmental Biology, 6th Edition Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates; 2000.

http://ip-68-178-166-78.ip.secureser...5431.Dv.r.html

So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?


Besides;

Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.

So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.

[Woodrow]

Human embryology is quite complex. What you have happening is the almost simultaneous development of several systems. You need to look at the skeletal system, Muscular system, nervous system, endocrine system, Blood system, lymph system etc as all forming separately. It is a wonder that they all end up coordinated into being a single human being.

I am not even going to attempt to prove what happens, when or how. I simply find it is a marvel that the Qur'an does agree the bones and muscles are initially separate.

[Perseveranze]

Hi,

Dont mind me asking but you appear a firm believer, so did you read the whole of the article of the topic and there isnt a single truth in it? I see all the videos posted and the websites listed as proofs and I must say I agree with them. So the conclusion is, everything in the article of the OP is false/inaccurate? It has all been disproven, once you've gone through all of it?

Thanks, just out of curiosity:)

P.s sorry I had to delete the links because of my recent membership, Why is that?

Peace,

Yeah, for a good few months I used to just go through websites like that, I used to find the sources they were using and see if there's a refutation for it. For many sites you find they just copy one another, twist interpretations (like they use unique translations that aren't in agreement with the other 14 or so other translations), they never consider looking into the root meaning of the words (shows the little understanding they have) and in some cases the hadiths they use they re-word it or use different words so it's harder for someone to google that hadith and find a refutation of it. Many other inconsistencies and issues, but everything I've come accross i've been able to see a logical refutation for it (i still look around every now and then).

Point is, kinda sad people fall for inaccurate and biased sites like these, really is. I just hope they do what I did and do a in-depth research into it, rather then just take what their initial understanding of it is. Afterall... The Quran challenges man to falsify it, to go as deep into it as you like to find an error, but no one's succeeded yet :) The moment someone does, Islam would fall, for 1400 years intellectual scholars/historians have tried, many who failed end up reverting or in every case end up admitting the mystery behind this book. I suggest you read the book "The Amazing Quran".

[- Qatada -]

Ibn AL Qayyim was a scholar of Islam who came around 400-500 years after Prophet Muhammad. So if ibn al Qayyim consulted greek physicians, or even made mistakes - that does not make Islam questionable in the least.

[Pak-istan786]

Peace,

Yeah, for a good few months I used to just go through websites like that, I used to find the sources they were using and see if there's a refutation for it. For many sites you find they just copy one another, twist interpretations (like they use unique translations that aren't in agreement with the other 14 or so other translations), they never consider looking into the root meaning of the words (shows the little understanding they have) and in some cases the hadiths they use they re-word it or use different words so it's harder for someone to google that hadith and find a refutation of it. Many other inconsistencies and issues, but everything I've come accross i've been able to see a logical refutation for it (i still look around every now and then).

Point is, kinda sad people fall for inaccurate and biased sites like these, really is. I just hope they do what I did and do a in-depth research into it, rather then just take what their initial understanding of it is. Afterall... The Quran challenges man to falsify it, to go as deep into it as you like to find an error, but no one's succeeded yet :) The moment someone does, Islam would fall, for 1400 years intellectual scholars/historians have tried, many who failed end up reverting or in every case end up admitting the mystery behind this book. I suggest you read the book "The Amazing Quran".

Assalaamu Alaykum again brother,

I've reposted in this old-ish thread i need your help brother. I don't know what's going wrong with me but lately i've been having all sorts of doubts that something in this article( which I originally posted in the first post) is true and therefore Islam is wrong. I don't know why I've suddenly been getting these doubts and feeling like this lately, but its causing me a lot of grief and distress. I feel as though even though we had gone through all the proofs against their statements, something in that article is true. Recently I've been diagnosed with mild OCD and anxiety disorder by my GP and I think this is contributing to it. These thoughts aren't letting me focus on my exam revision properly, and for some reason no matter how many times I try to reassure myself that there is nothing true in that article and everything is false, the doubts keep coming back. They make me continually question myself everytime they come. I think I've had black magic done on me, my parents think so too( I haven't told them about this problem being discussed here), but they were a bit worried about my medical diagnosis.

Please could you advise me and reassure me that the complete article is a farce, and help me brother I don't know what's going on in my head and I really need help.

My parents are great Alhamdulillah but I don't want to discuss this with them at all, and they think my Mental health problems are easier to solve than I think. I'm trying my best to battle through everyday, but as I've said in this post these current doubts and thoughts are really making me worried. How can I get over this, I feel trapped in my mind.

Sincerely asking for help/advice, wa' alaikumusalaam. Sorry to burden my problem on you but please help me where you can, I would appreciate it so much right now.

[- Qatada -]

And What about their interpretation of that Quranic verse( about how the muscles are formed before the bones, but the Quran contradicts it, something along those lines)?

It is mentioned in the Qur'an:

فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا

"Then we made out of that chewed-like substance bones" (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)

Accordingly the stage which follows the Mudghah stage will be called the bones (Izam) stage for the same reason.

The anlage of the skeleton which formed in the embryo during the "Mudghah stage" (between 25-40 days) transforms into cartilaginous models indicating the shape of future bones. Thus, the shape of the embryo changes from ''Mudghah shape" to one determined by the form of the skeleton. The embryo is now in the Bones (Izam) stage.


http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...mbryology.html

[Pak-istan786]

It is mentioned in the Qur'an:

فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا

"Then we made out of that chewed-like substance bones" (Surah Al-Mu 'minun, Ayah 14)

Accordingly the stage which follows the Mudghah stage will be called the bones (Izam) stage for the same reason.

The anlage of the skeleton which formed in the embryo during the "Mudghah stage" (between 25-40 days) transforms into cartilaginous models indicating the shape of future bones. Thus, the shape of the embryo changes from ''Mudghah shape" to one determined by the form of the skeleton. The embryo is now in the Bones (Izam) stage.

Sorry bro I'm a little confused by this post, are you saying here the bones and muscles form at a similar time here ?

[- Qatada -]

asalaamu alaykum wARahmatullah waBarakaatuh


Yes that is possible. And Allah knows best.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Assalaamu Alaykum again brother,

I've reposted in this old-ish thread i need your help brother. I don't know what's going wrong with me but lately i've been having all sorts of doubts that something in this article( which I originally posted in the first post) is true and therefore Islam is wrong. I don't know why I've suddenly been getting these doubts and feeling like this lately, but its causing me a lot of grief and distress. I feel as though even though we had gone through all the proofs against their statements, something in that article is true. Recently I've been diagnosed with mild OCD and anxiety disorder by my GP and I think this is contributing to it. These thoughts aren't letting me focus on my exam revision properly, and for some reason no matter how many times I try to reassure myself that there is nothing true in that article and everything is false, the doubts keep coming back. They make me continually question myself everytime they come. I think I've had black magic done on me, my parents think so too( I haven't told them about this problem being discussed here), but they were a bit worried about my medical diagnosis.

Please could you advise me and reassure me that the complete article is a farce, and help me brother I don't know what's going on in my head and I really need help.

My parents are great Alhamdulillah but I don't want to discuss this with them at all, and they think my Mental health problems are easier to solve than I think. I'm trying my best to battle through everyday, but as I've said in this post these current doubts and thoughts are really making me worried. How can I get over this, I feel trapped in my mind.

Sincerely asking for help/advice, wa' alaikumusalaam. Sorry to burden my problem on you but please help me where you can, I would appreciate it so much right now.

Asalaamu Alaikum, brother why are you referring to anti-Islamic websites when it is knowledge of Islam that you should be concentrating in trying to gain? You should not refer to these kinds of websites especially if you do not have adequate knowledge of Islam otherwise they will just put baseless doubts and waswas into your head. There is no good in referring to such websites and you will only to yourself harm rather than any good. You must stop referring to such websites immediatley and start gaining basic knowledge of Islam and slowly vuild your way up. Concentrate on doing everything to please Allah and refrain from anything which displeases him.

Do you think that anti-Islamic websites such as this are going to say good things about Islam? They were created ONLY to try and prove they are right but let me tell you this until this very day NOT one single verses has been proven wrong but the scientific miracles which Allah talks about are relevant until this very day and it also proves the divinity of the Qur'an that 1400 years ago an illiterate man could NEVER have known the things that are written in the Qur'an many of which have only been discovered recently.

Refer to the following for your own knowledge and information and please stop referring to anti-Islamic websites and concetrate in increasing your own knowledge of Islam and closeness to your creator.

Firstly here is the refutation of the false and incorrect misleading information you have read in that anti-Islamic wesbite:

A Muslim Answer To Criticism Of: Embryology in the Qur'an

http://www.answering-christianity.co...embryology.htm

Here are some wonderful resources for you to look at:

Science proves Quran is from Allah

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=39357


Amazing clips of Scientists who converted to Islam

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=41442

This is for your waswas problem:

How to overcome Waswas (shaythans whispers)

http://www.islamicboard.com/manners-...s-worship.html


Here are links to other good resources:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/showthread.php?t=44392


And Allah knows best in all matters

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum, brother why are you referring to anti-Islamic websites when it is knowledge of Islam that you should be concentrating in trying to gain? You should not refer to these kinds of websites especially if you do not have adequate knowledge of Islam otherwise they will just put baseless doubts and waswas into your head. There is no good in referring to such websites and you will only to yourself harm rather than any good. You must stop referring to such websites immediatley and start gaining basic knowledge of Islam and slowly vuild your way up. Concentrate on doing everything to please Allah and refrain from anything which displeases him.

Do you think that anti-Islamic websites such as this are going to say good things about Islam? They were created ONLY to try and prove they are right but let me tell you this until this very day NOT one single verses has been proven wrong but the scientific miracles which Allah talks about are relevant until this very day and it also proves the divinity of the Qur'an that 1400 years ago an illiterate man could NEVER have known the things that are written in the Qur'an many of which have only been discovered recently.

Refer to the following for your own knowledge and information and please stop referring to anti-Islamic websites and concetrate in increasing your own knowledge of Islam and closeness to your creator.

Firstly here is the refutation of the false and incorrect misleading information you have read in that anti-Islamic wesbite:

A Muslim Answer To Criticism Of: Embryology in the Qur'an


Here are some wonderful resources for you to look at:

Science proves Quran is from Allah




Amazing clips of Scientists who converted to Islam



This is for your waswas problem:

How to overcome Waswas (shaythans whispers)




Here are links to other good resources:




And Allah knows best in all matters

Jazak Allah for your reply. Insha Allah I will have a look at all these sources soon. I've got exams soon so trying to revise for them. I was on this student forum and the topic was on ' Did the Quran ever change?' and one person posted saying that:

"I meant that the scribes sought out ancient knowledge from the Greeks and the Egyptians and proceeded to make of it as if Allah had inspired or revealed it through the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)"

To which a person replied:

"Muhammad was illiterate, he didnt research ancient Greeks or Egyptians. He was a shephard.
Also, there were many versions of that knowledge mixed in with many fairytales. How/why would he or his companions have picked out only the correct parts and ignored the idea that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a chariot? In the 23 years that it took for the Quran to be complete? "

and then to this, the original poster replied saying:

"In order to legitimise Mohammed's divine revelations, it was asserted that he could not write. The Christians did the same with Zachariahs when he became mute. Revelations entered the picture. An angel appeared and lo and behold. "

I know that Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, so here the person is in the wrong. Do you know anything about his second sentence( about Zacharia becoming mute and the Bible was made up)?

I'm an interested in these comparative religion topics and yet I go into these threads with not much knowledge hence why I start getting confused and questioning stuff!! Maybe I shouldn't go in these threads in future I think!

Jazak Allah for your help

[CosmicPathos]

Jazak Allah for your reply. Insha Allah I will have a look at all these sources soon. I've got exams soon so trying to revise for them. I was on this student forum and the topic was on ' Did the Quran ever change?' and one person posted saying that:

"I meant that the scribes sought out ancient knowledge from the Greeks and the Egyptians and proceeded to make of it as if Allah had inspired or revealed it through the prophet Mohammed(PBUH)"

To which a person replied:

"Muhammad was illiterate, he didnt research ancient Greeks or Egyptians. He was a shephard.
Also, there were many versions of that knowledge mixed in with many fairytales. How/why would he or his companions have picked out only the correct parts and ignored the idea that the Sun was pulled across the sky by a chariot? In the 23 years that it took for the Quran to be complete? "

and then to this, the original poster replied saying:

"In order to legitimise Mohammed's divine revelations, it was asserted that he could not write. The Christians did the same with Zachariahs when he became mute. Revelations entered the picture. An angel appeared and lo and behold. "

I know that Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate, so here the person is in the wrong. Do you know anything about his second sentence( about Zacharia becoming mute and the Bible was made up)?

I'm an interested in these comparative religion topics and yet I go into these threads with not much knowledge hence why I start getting confused and questioning stuff!! Maybe I shouldn't go in these threads in future I think!

Jazak Allah for your help

maybe what the person is writing was made up by his friends to seem like that he is actually writing it. Really, can you trust anyone?

[Pak-istan786]

maybe what the person is writing was made up by his friends to seem like that he is actually writing it. Really, can you trust anyone?

Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right

Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status:

Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


saffy, if your emaan is shakey already - then you shouldn't be entering into these discussions in the first place. Alot of the people who reply themselves are ignorant atheists and since debate is about how arrogant you are - then that shows its not worth going there.

[CosmicPathos]

Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right

Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status:

Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol

Do you know Arabic language? If no, then how can you discuss whether Quran has changed or not? Or are you an expert in Arabic language and have studied the ancient copies of Quran and published a research article about it? If yes, then let me read it too as I want to believe you that Quran has changed!

[Ramadhan]

Sorry for getting back to you late. Maybe you're right Here is the direction to go on the thread, since I can't post links due to my new membership status: Type in 'thestudentroom.co.uk' and in the top right corner in the search box, if you type in 'Did the Quran ever change?' and then click on the thread on the results page, which is titled the same( 'Did the Quran ever change?' ). There is the discussion I'm talking about. I'd appreciate your views on the things that have been discussed here, if you have any lol

In the comparative religion section you also posted question from the website where the atheists accused the scribes of the qur'an copied from indian/persian etc.
The most simple and true way to answer: tell them to produce evidence.
They wouldnt be able, because there's not even one single evidence that point to such thing.

[Pak-istan786]

Peace Saffy786,

Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.

Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this -

Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more)

Assalaamu-alaykum,

Hope you are well brother, InshAllah. I wanted to ask you for help. I have been having worries/doubts/confusions again( about the original website in the first post) for the past few weeks. They keep coming and going, and they're all regarding this website. It still makes me so anxious/worried/concerned. I don't know what's happening to me, but I just cannot get this website out of my head. I still am concerned that something is true on that site, astagfirullah. Whenever my mind is idle, it sways back to this thought, and it never lets me live in peace. I had sent you a post before, if you look a few posts previously, with the same problem.

How can I make myself SURE/CERTAIN/100% (!!!!!) that there is nothing of significance on this website, and EVERYTHING ON IT IS A LIE? I feel my imaan is so weak at the moment, and I just cannot say "NO!" to that horrible, dread-inducing website. As bad as all that sounds, please help me brother, please reassure me so I can finally relax.

I am really looking forward to your reply and advice, because I want to forget about this site once and for all, and become certain without a shadow of a doubt that it is ALL A FARCE!! I really wish I never found that site in the first place! I am just waiting for your reply and reassurances. At times, I feel more confident and at others the doubts/worries keep coming back. Hence why it is so distressing for me.

All I want to know is that this website( the original one I mentioned in the first post) is all lies and develop confidence and belief in that!

JazakAllah for your help and advice brother, please reply quickly. I hope you pick up this quote quickly and can help.

Wa'alaikumus-salaam

P.S - Anyone else can also advise and help me too, JazakAllah

[Pak-istan786]

Peace Saffy786,

Here are refutations to both. I still don't get why someone is using the plagurism accussation, despite it being refuted many times, someone is desperate.

Anyways, regarding the bones before flesh accussation, please read this

Regarding the embroylogy plagurism accusation (refuted heavily), please read this (it's a long read but after you'll hopefully appreciate the miracle even more)

Sorry for bothering you so much but please get back to me soooon! JazakAllah

Or can anyone else help me?

[Pak-istan786]

:salamext:


Bones grow first in the embryo or muscles?

Given that the formation of muscle and bone are complex, multistep processes, I am not sure that it is very meaningful to ask which takes place first. We might define the first step in "bone formation" as the first expression of Cbfa1 (now Runx2) in mice. This gene is necessary for the determination of osteoblasts. Yet this occurs in an embryo in which there is already a cartilagenous model of the bone. Why wouldn't that be the first step in bone formation?

Similarly, we might define the first step in "muscle formation" as the expression of the muscle- specific bHLH (basic helix-loop-helix) proteins like MyoD, or the first fusions of myoblasts to form myotubes.

Depending on how we define the first step in muscle and bone formation, we will get different answers on which occurs first.

So scientists presently are in disagreement, but since the Qur'an is correct in so many other ways scientifically, maybe scientists will prove in the future that bones come first before muscle?


Besides;

Just as the Qur'anic text suggests: فَخَلَقْنَا الْمُضْغَةَ عِظَامًا فَكَسَوْنَا الْعِظَامَ لَحْمًا - then We created the Mudghah into bones THEN covered the bones in flesh. The 'Fa' which is 'translated' as 'then' shows that this happens simultaneously after that. ie. A happens then suddenly B happens. This is what the 'Fa' implies.

So the Qur'anic description itself recognises that both grow at a similar time and close to each other in sequence.

Assalaamu-alaykum,

I'm quoting this post after quite a while now lol. But I am intrigued, when you say 'THEN' technically the development of one thing is JUST AFTER the first one.

But when you say 'similar time' it doesn't have to mean the exact same time, just around the same region of time i suppose?

And when you say 'close together in sequence' it means they grow right next to each other/close to each other in the sequence of development?

If you refer to my previous posts, please advise and help me in this confusionimsad

JazakAllah

[Ramadhan]

Assalaamu-alaykum, I'm quoting this post after quite a while now lol. But I am intrigued, when you say 'THEN' technically the development of one thing is JUST AFTER the first one. But when you say 'similar time' it doesn't have to mean the exact same time, just around the same region of time i suppose? And when you say 'close together in sequence' it means they grow right next to each other/close to each other in the sequence of development? If you refer to my previous posts, please advise and help me in this confusion JazakAllah

:sl:

Even modern science is still not able to determine whether bones or muscles grow first, there are some various opinions. If you google it, there is evidence of certain cells that will grow as bones occur before the cells that will change into muscles.

[Pak-istan786]

Yes this is an interesting topic indeed, it takes a while and a lot of studying to interpret everything as accurately as possible I suppose.

But I would really appreciate some advice/help on how to forget about that website ( mentioned in my first post), because if you read my last post I am still so concerned about that site! I know it sounds bad, and people have posted the refutations to those claims, and yet still I keep worrying about it, as though there is something in that website which is true.

Helppppppp!

JazakAllah, wa'alaikumus-salaam

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

lol this guy, I tried doing some searches on him and hardly anything has come up. His book isn't popular, he's never been taken seriously by anyone (I've just seen quotes on Christian missionary websites, the fact that most anti-islam websites have no mention of him just show the redicilous claims he must've made in the book).

I havn't read the book, so don't know what's in it. But I did get this quote -

"Reveals that there is no historical, or even theological, basis for the orthodox view that Muhammad or his earliest followers intended the Koran to be treated as the inviolable word of God."

No wonder no one has taken him seriously. If you read the Quran, the life of the Prophet(pbuh) and the Hadiths, there's more then enough overwhelming proof that the Quran was to be treated as the word of God. Why on earth would Muslims have gone through so much trouble to ensure people memorize it and write it down? Why is the Quran handled with utmost respect when holding it and reading it? Why has not another single intellectual or anyone that's significantly known for scholarly works or anything made any mention of this before? Why didn't Muslims, memorize hadiths? Anyways, stuff like this should not bother you, it's almost like insulting your own intelligence if you gave people like this any attention, such baseless and stupid claims, that not even Islam haters have acknowledged, shows how desperate for attention some people are.

Edit: This made me laugh;

"The revealed text should not be equated with the perfect text of the original celestial Koran; which was believed to exist only in heaven and to be fully known only by God."

Lol.

As-salaamu Alaykum brother please get back to me and help me soon please! JazakAllah, wa'alaikumus-salaam

[Perseveranze]

Assalaamu-alaykum,

Hope you are well brother, InshAllah. I wanted to ask you for help. I have been having worries/doubts/confusions again( about the original website in the first post) for the past few weeks. They keep coming and going, and they're all regarding this website. It still makes me so anxious/worried/concerned. I don't know what's happening to me, but I just cannot get this website out of my head. I still am concerned that something is true on that site, astagfirullah. Whenever my mind is idle, it sways back to this thought, and it never lets me live in peace. I had sent you a post before, if you look a few posts previously, with the same problem.

How can I make myself SURE/CERTAIN/100% (!!!!!) that there is nothing of significance on this website, and EVERYTHING ON IT IS A LIE? I feel my imaan is so weak at the moment, and I just cannot say "NO!" to that horrible, dread-inducing website. As bad as all that sounds, please help me brother, please reassure me so I can finally relax.

I am really looking forward to your reply and advice, because I want to forget about this site once and for all, and become certain without a shadow of a doubt that it is ALL A FARCE!! I really wish I never found that site in the first place! I am just waiting for your reply and reassurances. At times, I feel more confident and at others the doubts/worries keep coming back. Hence why it is so distressing for me.

All I want to know is that this website( the original one I mentioned in the first post) is all lies and develop confidence and belief in that!

JazakAllah for your help and advice brother, please reply quickly. I hope you pick up this quote quickly and can help.

Wa'alaikumus-salaam

P.S - Anyone else can also advise and help me too, JazakAllah

Asalaamu Alaikum brother,

Your basically doing what I used to do. And I know how fustrating it can be. I used to always go on these websites, just to refute them, and even though i'd find the refute one after another, I kept going back again and again... And it does after a while fustrate you. And in the end, you feel like your "strength in your belief" is dependant on being able to refute what amatuer Anti-islam haters say. When in reality, your belief should be because you, yourself believe in Allah(swt), in the Prophet(pbut) and the Quran.

Here is some great advice a Sheikh gives -

Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah be pleased with him) said –
“Do not make your heart like a sponge soaking up any idea and specious arguments that come to mind, rather make it like a glass through whose surface the specious arguments pass but do not settle there, otherwise if all those doubts and specious arguments settle in your heart, it will be overwhelmed by them.”

That's not to say "have blind faith and not question", the meaning of what the Sheikh is saying is take things one at a time. Don't keep asking questions to the point where your heart is overhwelmed. In your case, don't keep testing your faith again and again, it will eventually fustrate you and overwhelm your heart, by that time you might begin to doubt, especially if you have no real guidance or understanding.

And believe me, your never going to "know everything" about Islam or any subject. Unless your a Scholar, which I doubt you are, your always going to lack understanding in some things. What your doing now is just going to put you off your faith, fustrate you and push you away from Islam.

Please take my advice brother, don't let "anti-Islam" websites dictate your belief in your Creator. If you geniunly have a concern about something they said, then feel free to ask here and we'll do our best to remove your doubt. Otherwise control yourself, you can't test Allah(swt), it is He who tests you.

Anyways, that website you mentioned a while ago, twists, exagerates and lies to try and give a false or negative image of Islam. I remember reading about how they were comparing "Islamic science to Jewish Science", and what they did is only look at the past few decades, they did this on purpose. If they looked at the past few centuries, they'd find what we call the "Islamic Golden Age", which many people today (even non-Muslim scholars) believe lead to the modern world. This just shows how biased that website is.

If you got any questions, please ask here.

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum brother,

Your basically doing what I used to do. And I know how fustrating it can be. I used to always go on these websites, just to refute them, and even though i'd find the refute one after another, I kept going back again and again... And it does after a while fustrate you. And in the end, you feel like your "strength in your belief" is dependant on being able to refute what amatuer Anti-islam haters say. When in reality, your belief should be because you, yourself believe in Allah(swt), in the Prophet(pbut) and the Quran.

Here is some great advice a Sheikh gives -

Shaykh al-Islam (may Allaah be pleased with him) said –
“Do not make your heart like a sponge soaking up any idea and specious arguments that come to mind, rather make it like a glass through whose surface the specious arguments pass but do not settle there, otherwise if all those doubts and specious arguments settle in your heart, it will be overwhelmed by them.”

That's not to say "have blind faith and not question", the meaning of what the Sheikh is saying is take things one at a time. Don't keep asking questions to the point where your heart is overhwelmed. In your case, don't keep testing your faith again and again, it will eventually fustrate you and overwhelm your heart, by that time you might begin to doubt, especially if you have no real guidance or understanding.

And believe me, your never going to "know everything" about Islam or any subject. Unless your a Scholar, which I doubt you are, your always going to lack understanding in some things. What your doing now is just going to put you off your faith, fustrate you and push you away from Islam.

Please take my advice brother, don't let "anti-Islam" websites dictate your belief in your Creator. If you geniunly have a concern about something they said, then feel free to ask here and we'll do our best to remove your doubt. Otherwise control yourself, you can't test Allah(swt), it is He who tests you.

Anyways, that website you mentioned a while ago, twists, exagerates and lies to try and give a false or negative image of Islam. I remember reading about how they were comparing "Islamic science to Jewish Science", and what they did is only look at the past few decades, they did this on purpose. If they looked at the past few centuries, they'd find what we call the "Islamic Golden Age", which many people today (even non-Muslim scholars) believe lead to the modern world. This just shows how biased that website is.

If you got any questions, please ask here.

JazakAllah for you reply. You understand my situation completely and this does become very overwhelming and frustrating. I feel as though I am losing it in some regards and am becoming so hypersensitive about everything these days. I think the constant anxiety surrounding these issues is preventing me from think logically. As an example of this, I was recently looking into another topic on the internet and came across this question and answer. I can't post the link for it, so I will copy and paste the text below:

Question

---

Asalaamualaykum
The Prophet Muhammad(SAW) mentions in a hadith regarding the fitra of a human that an animal gives birth to an animal that is intact, however some animals although rarely, are born deformed in nature and therefore not ‘intact’. Is there a contradiction between this hadith and natural phenomenon, as the Prophet (SAW) must surely have known about deformed animals? Maybe the word “intact’ has a slightly different meaning?

Question from South Africa

Answer

---

It seems like you are referring to this Hadith:
Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on the fitra and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?" - Bukhari: 441
The Hadith implies that just as an animal is born in its natural intact state the same is true for humans being born with their spiritual disposition - the Fitrah of surrendering to God (i.e. Islam). The analogy continues that just as the animal is blemished by external elements the same is true for humans who lose their sense of Fitrah due to extrinsic influences.

It should be clear from the above that the hadith does not suggest that no animal is born handicap. The hadith is only comparing the state of natural health of a new born animal and the fact that it later may get maimed with the state of a new born human, naturally being with the Fitrah and the fact that he later may deviate from the Fitrah.

For some reason, when I am reading this question I keep worrying that there is something anti-Islamic or dodgy in that question or its answer. I read the question and answer and then re-read them, trying to convince myself that there is nothing dodgy here. Yet I still keep worrying, as I mentioned before I think the constant anxiety here is not allowing me to think properly. This is how I feel I am 'losing it' in this aspect!

Please can you reassure me and help me here? Is there anything dodgy/anti-Islamic in that question or its answer? I think it is best for me to not go on any things like this until I feel better regarding all these issues!

JazakAllah for your help, wa'alaikumus-salaam

[Abz2000]

bro, if you don't find a valid answer to something in islam that should be explained, then it is your job to ask questions out of sincerity to find the truth,
as kennedy said:

no president should fear public scrutiny of his program,
for from that scrutiny comes understanding,
and from that understanding comes support or opposition,
and both are necessary,
i am not asking your newspapers to support an administration,
but i am asking your help, in informing and alerting the american people.

the man was later shot dead.................

watch?v=EZYfeYhQ9eU

you will get people who raise obscure questions while knowing that the facts do not support their explanations, this is not out of sincerity, but out of jealousy, you are justified in ignoring them.

when 'Umar (ra) exclaimed in the mosque that hte dowries given to women was getting too high, a woman stood up and said that the Quran clearly states give them Qintar, which means loads of treasure.
'Umar (ra) conceded and said: a woman is right and 'Umar is wrong.

the muslim leaders in one of the battles sent a message to 'Umar (ra) saying that a man was going around among them asking about certain verses of the Quran, not anything that can be explianed or learned from, but certain words that Allah (SWT) uses (by the winnowing winds etc) (you can't explain what "ta ha" means and it's explanation would be conjecture), this man would go around and ask people: what does addhaaryatidhar'a mean, and people would be confused, there was a lot of murmuring and the leaders were a little concerned as there were new Muslims in the ranks too,
so 'Umar said: send him to Madinah,
the man turned up at the Prophet's mosque and when 'Umar greeted him - he asked the same silly question,
'Umar ordered them do bring a large carpet, he got the man, rolled him up in it, and started to beat the carpet with a stick, "do you know now what it means?
yes, O Amirul Mu-mineen i fully understand.
the man apparently never asked silly questions again in the lifetime of 'Umar (ra), but after the Caliph passed away, he was reported to have gone around asking those questions again :D
what can you say?

i learned that it's great to try to sincerely debate meaningful arguments - even if it means standing before the leader, but not unexplainable, unchangeable, and meaningless things that can only cause people to go astray rather than seek guidance.

[Abz2000]

btw bro, that whole topic which i saw on the website is off course from the start:

the story they use is the story of the man who had asked how Almighty God brings the dead to life, sohe was made to temporarily die/sleep for 100 years and when he woke up he found had rotted to bones while his food was still in perfect condition, all that remained of his donkey was the brittle bones, and Almighty God started the process from there,
now the website tries to paint that as the creation process while really it is an example of the resurrection /restoration process, that would be like getting fresh food and leaving it in the open atmosphere for 100 years and saying that the Quran says nothing happens to food and that fridges are haraam - since they question Gods ability to keep it fresh.

here's the actual verse:

259. Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age; and look at thy donkey: And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people, Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh." When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things."

here's the next verse:

260. Behold! Abraham said: "My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead." He said: "Dost thou not then believe?" He said: "Yea! but to satisfy My own undertaking." He said: "Take four birds; Tame them to turn to thee; put a portion of them on every hill and call to them: They will come to thee (Flying) with speed. Then know that Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise."

are they gonna make a new site saying that the Quran says that birds come from certain cut up portions of themselves and not from eggs?

and btw: many of the nobel "peace" prize winners on that site were war criminals, and even some of the so-called "muslim" leaders they presented were working with the same team - lame presentation

[Pak-istan786]

BTW I am talking about the original website I posted in the first post, which had the title 'Koran:the Myth of Embryology!'

It's been quite a while since I found that site. JazakAllah, wasalaam

[Perseveranze]

JazakAllah for you reply. You understand my situation completely and this does become very overwhelming and frustrating. I feel as though I am losing it in some regards and am becoming so hypersensitive about everything these days. I think the constant anxiety surrounding these issues is preventing me from think logically. As an example of this, I was recently looking into another topic on the internet and came across this question and answer. I can't post the link for it, so I will copy and paste the text below:

Question

---

Asalaamualaykum
The Prophet Muhammad(SAW) mentions in a hadith regarding the fitra of a human that an animal gives birth to an animal that is intact, however some animals although rarely, are born deformed in nature and therefore not ‘intact’. Is there a contradiction between this hadith and natural phenomenon, as the Prophet (SAW) must surely have known about deformed animals? Maybe the word “intact’ has a slightly different meaning?

Question from South Africa

Answer

---

It seems like you are referring to this Hadith:
Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on the fitra and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?" - Bukhari: 441
The Hadith implies that just as an animal is born in its natural intact state the same is true for humans being born with their spiritual disposition - the Fitrah of surrendering to God (i.e. Islam). The analogy continues that just as the animal is blemished by external elements the same is true for humans who lose their sense of Fitrah due to extrinsic influences.

It should be clear from the above that the hadith does not suggest that no animal is born handicap. The hadith is only comparing the state of natural health of a new born animal and the fact that it later may get maimed with the state of a new born human, naturally being with the Fitrah and the fact that he later may deviate from the Fitrah.

For some reason, when I am reading this question I keep worrying that there is something anti-Islamic or dodgy in that question or its answer. I read the question and answer and then re-read them, trying to convince myself that there is nothing dodgy here. Yet I still keep worrying, as I mentioned before I think the constant anxiety here is not allowing me to think properly. This is how I feel I am 'losing it' in this aspect!

Please can you reassure me and help me here? Is there anything dodgy/anti-Islamic in that question or its answer? I think it is best for me to not go on any things like this until I feel better regarding all these issues!

JazakAllah for your help, wa'alaikumus-salaam

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I asked this question on another forums, since I wasn't too knowledgeable regarding Animals/Hadith context. And this was the answer -

Wa Alayk as-Salaam,

I'm not sure that the part in parenthesis is the correct explanation for the Hadith, and have yet to find that in any Shuruh.

Rather, Ibn Hajar gives quite a lengthy discussion on the Hadith, among which he explains the part which says: "...'as the beast produces...', meaning: the beast gives birth to an offspring of complete physique, and if left alone like that, remains free of defect, rather they (people) alter it by cutting its ear, and in the example, thus going away from the root or Asl."- end quote.

So in the context the statement does not mean 'perfect' and it is not referring to animals being born without deformity. It means 'complete'.

The Hadith uses the term الجَدَّاءُ which means: 'to have small udders, amputated ears, empty of milk, and weaned without water(?)'.

However, Ibn Hajar states that what is intended is 'cut ears' (1/97), and it is this meaning which the majority of Muhaqiqeen refer to as well.

So the Hadith is referring to the fact that animals are born without their ears slit, rather it is mankind who innovates this act and imposes it upon them later on (as in the tradition of making camels 'Bahirah' referred to in the Qur'an 5:103).

The same with children, they are born with Iman in general, and inclined towards preferring and accepting Allah's Lordship, however it is his parents who come and alter that with Allah' permission.

Again, the interpretation is differed over and so the explanation will differ accordingly.

That seems very clear to me.

If you found that Hadith on an Anti-islam site, then no wonder, just shows how they twist things. They never took into account;

- The meaning of the ancient Arabic (language that was spoken)
- THe context of what that hadith was revealed in
- How the people at the time of the Hadith understood this.

They just "quote out of context" and "try" to mislead people who don't persue futher knowledge.

[Pak-istan786]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

I asked this question on another forums, since I wasn't too knowledgeable regarding Animals/Hadith context. And this was the answer -



That seems very clear to me.

If you found that Hadith on an Anti-islam site, then no wonder, just shows how they twist things. They never took into account;

- The meaning of the ancient Arabic (language that was spoken)
- THe context of what that hadith was revealed in
- How the people at the time of the Hadith understood this.

They just "quote out of context" and "try" to mislead people who don't persue futher knowledge.

The website where I found that answer from was 'www.understanding-islam.com'. Is that an anti-Islamic site? I am avoiding these from now on, after this has been clarified!

And where on the original site is the page about Islamic Science vs Jewish science? JazakAllah

[Perseveranze]

The website where I found that answer from was 'www.understanding-islam.com'. Is that an anti-Islamic site? I am avoiding these from now on, after this has been clarified!

And where on the original site is the page about Islamic Science vs Jewish science? JazakAllah

That site you linked seems ok.

As for the Science thing, that was one of the first sites you linked in your first post, it was a site made by jews.

[Pak-istan786]

That site you linked seems ok.

As for the Science thing, that was one of the first sites you linked in your first post, it was a site made by jews.

OK so the website seems OK, but their answer for that previous question appears dodgy?? Interesting......I'm just curious, don't intend to sound rude.

Is this the first site, I don't see it comparing Islamic science and Jewish science:

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-embryology.htm

JazakAllah

[Perseveranze]

OK so the website seems OK, but their answer for that previous question appears dodgy?? Interesting......I'm just curious, don't intend to sound rude.

Is this the first site, I don't see it comparing Islamic science and Jewish science:

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-embryology.htm

JazakAllah

It's at the top brother -

Jews outperform Muslims in science!

^Such a false statement and they purposely ignore this - http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/35385-setting-record-straight-miracle-islamic-science.html

ANd - http://www.1001inventions.com/1001inventions

Without Muslims we wouldn't have computers, we wouldn't have camera's, technology etc. Heck, some of the tools in surgery used 700 years ago is still used today. The first true Scientist was a Muslim, subhanallah.

If that site was honest, they wouldn't even TRY to compare Muslims with anyone in the field of science.

Just a biased, dishonest and twisting website, stay away from that crap.

[Pak-istan786]

It's at the top brother -

Jews outperform Muslims in science!

^Such a false statement and they purposely ignore this - http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/35385-setting-record-straight-miracle-islamic-science.html

ANd - http://www.1001inventions.com/1001inventions

Without Muslims we wouldn't have computers, we wouldn't have camera's, technology etc. Heck, some of the tools in surgery used 700 years ago is still used today. The first true Scientist was a Muslim, subhanallah.

If that site was honest, they wouldn't even TRY to compare Muslims with anyone in the field of science.

Just a biased, dishonest and twisting website, stay away from that crap.

Oooh so that was the website, yes Fine that is it!! I now want to close this chapter, I want to just end these worries now so I am going to follow your advice which you posted a few posts before. This site is wrong therefore I will not allow this to disrupt me anymore??

The other site is wrong( http://www.understanding-islam.com/q...d-animals-9122) ???

Therefore, there is nothing to worry me now, right?

And so I shall leave this all now insha Allah, and spend more time reaffirming my faith in Allah SWT, and making my imaan stronger insha Allah.

[Hamza Asadullah]

Oooh so that was the website, yes Fine that is it!! I now want to close this chapter, I want to just end these worries now so I am going to follow your advice which you posted a few posts before. This site is wrong therefore I will not allow this to disrupt me anymore??

The other site is wrong( http://www.understanding-islam.com/q...d-animals-9122) ???

Therefore, there is nothing to worry me now, right?

And so I shall leave this all now insha Allah, and spend more time reaffirming my faith in Allah SWT, and making my imaan stronger insha Allah.

Asalaamu Alaikum, Brother enough is enough now. I have seen you like this for a long time now, what are you doing to yourself? How can a Muslim who lacks adequate knowledge go around trawling the internet for anti-Islamic websites and expect their imaan to remain in tact?

You will find the web FULL of absurd, false and incorrect information on Islam. The very purpose and intent of such websites is to spread false and incorrect information and lies about Islam and you are trawling through the internet searching for such websites for no reaosn whatsoever and causing yourself so much damage in the process!

A person may aswell headbutt the wall that is what you are doing to yourself. Stop this now and take a grip of yourself. Be firm in that you will NOT trawl the web for such websites again. Why should you? For what reason? Why not actually learn the TRUTH about Islam and learn as much knowledge as you can. How can anyone go searching for Islam through those who aim to spread lies and incorrect information about Islam?

It is clear you suffer from severe waswas (whisperings of shaythan) so why are you making your condition worse by drinking poison? Rather than finding a cure? Cure yourself from such a disease by NOT referring to such websites ever again and strengthening your imaan this Ramadan. Strengthen your imaan by worshipping Allah and doing everything to please him. Learn as much knowldge as you can about Islam and join some courses if need be and sit with the pious and learned.

Ban yourself from using the internet if need be! Do whatever it takes to NOT ever get yourself in such a position again. Stop damaging yourself now! Be firm never to repeat this behaviour again.

This month is such an amazing opportunity for us to get closer to Allah and strengthen our imaan but you are continuing to lower your imaan by what you are doing. You are doing the opposite to what a Muslim should do. So stop such behaviour at once and make the necessery changes NOW and do not repeat such behaviour again.

Do EVERYTHING to get closer to Allah and avoid anything which angers or displeases him. By you going to such websites is pleasing shaythan is that what you want? If not then stop going on such websites and stop pleasing shaythan and doing severe damage to your imaan. Stop wasting your Ramadan and stop wasting your life.

Use your precious little time that you have left in this life to worship and please Allah. Live for the hereafter. Live to please Allah and remember him as much as you can. Learn as much as you can about Islam through books, courses, attent your local Masjid and sit with the learned and pious and surround yourself with good and pious people.

Ask of Allah sincerely in dua to help you to keep you strong so you stay away from such filthy websites. It is not right for you as a Muslim or for your imaan to trawl through such sites. So make a firm committment to Allah that you will not repeat such behaviour again but that you will do EVERYTHING to get closer to him.


Here are some threads you should read to make the best of this blessed month and the rest of your life:


12 Ways to Maximize Everyday in Ramadan

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...y-ramadan.html


10 Steps to Increasing our Iman(Faith) this Ramadhan

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...-ramadhan.html


10 steps to getting closer to Allah this Ramadan

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...h-ramadan.html


VERY Rewarding Nafl Salaahs we can Pray Everyday this Ramadan!

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...y-ramadan.html


Immense Rewards for Reciting the Qur'an in Ramadan

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...n-ramadan.html


15 Easy Good deeds to do throughout Ramadan!

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...t-ramadan.html


40 Quick, Easy & Rewarding Good Deeds to do Everyday in Ramadhan!

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...-ramadhan.html


How productive was your day today in Ramadan?

http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...y-ramadan.html


If you need anymore help then please do not hesitate to ask. So make the changes NOW for you may not have a tomorrow.

[Perseveranze]

Oooh so that was the website, yes Fine that is it!! I now want to close this chapter, I want to just end these worries now so I am going to follow your advice which you posted a few posts before. This site is wrong therefore I will not allow this to disrupt me anymore??

The other site is wrong( http://www.understanding-islam.com/q...d-animals-9122) ???

Therefore, there is nothing to worry me now, right?

And so I shall leave this all now insha Allah, and spend more time reaffirming my faith in Allah SWT, and making my imaan stronger insha Allah.

Lol believe me brother, there's nothing to ever doubt in regards to Islam. I've looked at everything I possibly can and there's nothing at all, just made me stronger in faith/imaan.

I'm like this now;

‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, among others, would say: “If the veil of the Unseen were lifted up, my certainty would not increase.”

Close the chapter and refirm your faith in Allah(swt) and make your imaan strong inshallah. This is an interesting link, if your up for having a good read, then check it out - http://www.theinimitablequran.com

[Pak-istan786]

Lol believe me brother, there's nothing to ever doubt in regards to Islam. I've looked at everything I possibly can and there's nothing at all, just made me stronger in faith/imaan.

I'm like this now;

‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, among others, would say: “If the veil of the Unseen were lifted up, my certainty would not increase.”

Close the chapter and refirm your faith in Allah(swt) and make your imaan strong inshallah. This is an interesting link, if your up for having a good read, then check it out - http://www.theinimitablequran.com

JazakAllah for your help and advice, I know I am such a curious person, yet I don't pursue the knowledge myself to remove my worries, which I know is wrong:( I have just one more question:

In the previous post I made( about the animals/hadith topic), what did you mean when you said 'quoting it out of context'? Also, was that the same question as the one I copied from the other site, because the answer seems hard to understand!? Or maybe it requires some background reading? Sorry to be bugging you again because of my lack of knowledge here!

JazakAllah

[Abz2000]

brother - i told you clearly - the subject they used was from suarh baqarah, where the man asked how Almighty God could bring a ruined town back to life - he was made do die for 100 years, when he woke up, he thought he had slept for a day or half a day, his donkey's bones only remained, and his food was totally intact, the donkey was re-created from it's bones, they full well knew this and without giving the full verse, they made out that this is the creation process, here is their mis-statement:

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

The Koran gives the impression that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with mustle. Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precursors of the bones start forming from the somite at the same time. At the end of the eighth week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.

here is the full verse:

Or (take) the similitude of one who passed by a hamlet, all in ruins to its roofs. He said: "Oh! how shall Allah bring it (ever) to life, after (this) its death?" but Allah caused him to die for a hundred years, then raised him up (again). He said: "How long didst thou tarry (thus)?" He said: (Perhaps) a day or part of a day." He said: "Nay, thou hast tarried thus a hundred years; but look at thy food and thy drink; they show no signs of age;

and look at thy donkey:
And that We may make of thee a sign unto the people,
Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh."
When this was shown clearly to him, he said: "I know that Allah hath power over all things."
Quran 2:259

from their first presentation - you can see that this is a perversion of the facts - so please do the research into the verses for the context.

that was not the creation process - that is the resurrection process,

and regarding the verse in Surah Mu-minun:
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood ('Alaqah) ; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump (Mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh (lahm); then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
Quran 23-14

the Quran clearly says the Mudghah comes before the bones or meat,
now many people have attempted to interpret the word "mudhah" and come out with different explanations - some have said chewed appearance, or chewed substance, some have said lump, and some have given other interpretations - now we know it hasn't been chewed by anyone so it could mean chewed appearance or something not completely defined or anything that Almighty God may have intended, after the bones part the term "lahm" is used, this is almost unanimously interpreted as "meat" or "flesh", how do we know that Almighty God does not define this stage as different from the pre-skeletal stage - as the composition of the substance is constantly changing?, obviously composition of the "chewed" pre-skeletal stuff is not the same as the post skeletal stuff even though the transition is occurring during the formation of cartilage, so if Almighty God decided to use two different terms to describe pre-skeletal flesh and post-skeletal flesh, does that mean it's wrong? or does it mean that he gave it a different definition. bearing in mind that these are human words.

on the same topic - the debunkers might ask: why call one mudghah and the other lahm when it's the same thing,
well - their predecessors would have said the same thing - when all the while THEY DIDN'T KNOW OF - OR HAVE A DEFINITION FOR CARTILAGE AT THE TIME, they called it all bone.
so the current debunkers might ask, why say bones when cartilage comes before bones?
so then one might ask - why did your ancestors call it bone?
if you have now come to understand - only in the past few centuries that there is a slightly different composition in cartilage than what we now define as bone - could it not be that we will in future find that there is a stark contrast between the composition of the flesh - pre-cartilage/bone stage and post stage,
should Almighty God have given them a new word for the initial stages of bone also at the time?
i would say: no - because many would still not use the word cartilage and see the forming structure as initial stages of bone. walk around with an x-ray of a foetus and the majority will tell you it's bone - despite a new term for this initial stage of bone having been coined.
but Almighty God DID see a reason in separating the terms used for pre-skeletal and post skeletal flesh, and we will God Willing - in future continue to coin various new terms even in between that for the process.

p.s some things in the Quran explain appearance and not intricate details, when it talks of Dhul Qarnain - it mentions the Sun setting in a murky place - anyone who hasn't lived in the real world would say this is nonesense - yet anyone who speaks the speech of humans - would know that even scientists don't wake up and say: the earth has rotated on it's y axis, they use the terms "sunrise" and "sunset" , and the Quran was revealed to humans in human speech, in a way they can comprehend, it was even revealed in two different dialects, the Makkan verses and the Medinese verses are different arabic, Caliph Uthman (or i think abu bakr) had to get rid of all the texts in different dialects form all over Arabia and used the parchments that 'umar (ra)'s daughter and the Prophet (pbuh)'s wife Ummul mu-mineen Hafsah had in safekeeping with her to make a standardized text. Allah revealed to humans in the easiest possible terms they could comprehend,

We sent not a Messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people,
in order to make (things) clear to them.
Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.
Quran 14:4

Understand that the Quran does not go into intricate genealogies and ancestors etc like the previous scriptures,
it goes to the point of morals and remembrance, of reflection, so don't be surprised if it talks of sunset - also google the term "sunrise" and you'll get a time when the sun rises in your locality from knowledgable weather experts and astronomers - despite the sun having neither risen - nor set. i'm sure you yourself feel more comfortable with the term, i personally would look at someone in a weird way if they woke up and told me that "the earth has completed a full rotation on it's y axis" - and i would most likely say: "english please - freaK".

[Pak-istan786]

Lol believe me brother, there's nothing to ever doubt in regards to Islam. I've looked at everything I possibly can and there's nothing at all, just made me stronger in faith/imaan.

I'm like this now;

‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, among others, would say: “If the veil of the Unseen were lifted up, my certainty would not increase.”

Close the chapter and refirm your faith in Allah(swt) and make your imaan strong inshallah. This is an interesting link, if your up for having a good read, then check it out - http://www.theinimitablequran.com

Assalaamu-Alaykum Brother Perseveranze and to everyone else here,

Look at this link: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-questions.htm

And here is the rebuttal to it: http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm

What do you think? Shouldn't www.bible.ca/islam be on the list of anti-Islamic websites?

JazakAllah, wasalaam.

[Ramadhan]

Assalaamu-Alaykum Brother Perseveranze and to everyone else here,

Look at this link: http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-questions.htm

And here is the rebuttal to it: http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm

What do you think? Shouldn't www.bible.ca/islam be on the list of anti-Islamic websites?

JazakAllah, wasalaam.

:sl:

I'm confused. Whats your deal, bro?
If you are already aware that it's anti Islam website, why do you keep insisting on us to go to that website?
That website was deleted by mods in your early post, and yet you kept on posting it.

May Allah SWT give you guidance, regardless of your motive.

[Pak-istan786]

But can anyone just clarify my worries? I think I've got nazar.... or I'm becoming weaker

[Ramadhan]

But can anyone just clarify my worries? I think I've got nazar.... or I'm becoming weaker

There have been tens of replies in this thread. And they are clearly sufficient in clarifying your worries already. Have you actually read them? Which part of those replies that you have not found to be satisfying?
Please read them.

[Pak-istan786]

I just keep becoming worried and doubtful. I want to take the 'leap' so to speak, and not worry about this or think about it again? That seems like the hardest part currently, if you can understand where I'm coming from?

[Abz2000]

I just keep becoming worried and doubtful. I want to take the 'leap' so to speak, and not worry about this or think about it again? That seems like the hardest part currently, if you can understand where I'm coming from?

did you read my post?

it's only 5 up,
peace

[Pak-istan786]

To make it easier for people to understand me I'm going to write my thought's down here:

" That bible.ca site must be wrong with all it's claims about the plagiarism accusation, bones before flesh accusation etc, because from the links I have seen they refute the plagiarism accusation and more.

Then there's this worry/doubt from the other link on that site ('60 questions Muslims don't like to be asked'), but then I say to myself since that is coming from the same site as before, then it has got to be wrong and they're all false claims like before. Also, I have seen for myself the rebuttal article so this claim by that anti-Islamic site is also not true.

Then, I start worrying about the other site ( it was a Q/A link and the title of the question was something like ' A scientific error in a Hadith regarding deformed animals'), and then again I say to myself there is nothing to worry about here, brother Perseveranze has clarified that for me already and there is nothing there to make me doubt my faith.

And I am still feeling as though something worrying/doubtful is lingering in my head, and that is what is stopping me from moving on "

You guys may be thinking I'm crazy here, but this is my train of thought currently, so maybe I am crazy? They say thinking about a problem when you're still anxious about it will not help, as all your thoughts will be focusing on the problem itself, and not the solution. I think this maybe the case here.

And so now you know my thoughts you can help me better and I can help myself to get out of this mess? JazakAllah

[Abz2000]

Looking into scientific facts in Hadith won't help much, as we can't always be 100% certain of their authenticity until they come to pass, that would be people's mistakes, not that of God and His messenger. and if you are in doubt, find the facts, which is something I see you don't seem to be doing much,
I would recommend you watch this video,


Any new visitor who doesn't know much about Islam would deduce from your comments that Muslims believe things only because they have to, even if they aren't true,
When really we are encouraged to find the truth,
Brother, I recommend you ask any question that doesnt make sense straight rather than beat around the bush and say you're suppressing your common sense
Peace

[Ramadhan]

Brother,

No one will ever able to help you if you keep actively sabotaging your own self.

Here's my thoughts:

1. You are a muslim, so you sincerely believe in Allah and prophet Muhammad SAW, the kitabs, the angels, the rasuls, the qiyamah and qada and qadar. That's basic.
And you acknowledge that you are still weak in iman and knowledge about Islam. The best thing to do is to increase your eeman and knowledge by studying more about Islam and asking Allah for guidance (and please read brother Hamza post in this thread). But instead, you waste your time by trawling around internet going to either non-Islamic sites and outright Islamic hater sites who manipulate, twists meanings, take things out of context and blatant lies against Islam.

2. in this thread, you keep complaining about having doubts, but you are disregarding every single advice and every single post sincerely written by your brothers and sisters in Islam to help you. In the meantime you have rarely been able to articulate which issue that you have doubts in (except for that embryology question, which has been more than amply answered, explained and clarified in this thread).

3. If you still have one or two specific issues that you want some clarification, you can post them here, and maybe we can help answering, but please don't keep complaining why you have lingering doubts while are still actively going to all those anti Islam websites instead of studying Islam on your own. I give you an example: the other day I was researching qada and qadar on the internet, and I found this pdf article which sounded legit because the name of the author was arabic and the title was serious. The first and second pages were good and had authentic basis, until on the third page the author was inserting a Qur'an ayat. I knew that verse couldnt have existed in the qur'an, and I checked against many translations and tafseers, and this author clearly mistranslated the ayat and then on the same page he also wrote about a hadith which I couldn't find anywhere in any ahadeeth books. So right that moment I realised that this seemingly intellectual book about Qur'an must have been written by an Islamic hater/orientalist/missionary/hypocrite/what have you. What I did next was immediately to stop reading that pdf and immediately deleted the pdf from my computer for good.

4. As brother Hamza has said: it seems you can't discipline yourself from not going to those anti-Islam sites, so why don't you ban yourself from internet, and spend a month buying Islamic books and read them all to increase your eeman and your knowledge.

Please, this time read our posts, and follow at least a couple of our advice.

[Pak-istan786]

Could someone tell me whether www.answering-christianity.com is an anti-Islamic site, or is it OK to use? JazakAllah

[Abz2000]

It seems like the brother has created a refutation site to clear misconceptons created about the quran and to prove how there are many discrepancies in the previous scriptures due to edits,
However, in regards to the Quran, I personally believe he does stretch things a bit to prove things out of zeal,
Like with chapter ad dukhaan, he claims that the smoke will be the galaxies blowing up, we don't know this and it could be anything.
He does seem sincere though and refuses to accept donations,
Will continue to check the arguments on the site as some are quite good.
Do also try to concentrate on positive energy though, you seem to be looking into disputes a lot
Try also looking into the prophecies made by the prophets and you will see that you don't need a "leap of faith",
Some of the prophets in the old testament made prophecies regarding prophet Jesus (pbuh) and Muhammad (pbuh) check Isaiah 28, the new testament gives many prophecies of a prophet to come after Jesus (pbuh) and future events, and then prophet muhammad makes prophecies regarding Jesus pbuh and other future events -
Predictions are different from Prophecies, in that predictions are usually based on trends, while prophecies mention with surety events that will happen thousands of years layer which no one at the time can comprehend.
according to those who believe in random selection, everything happens randomly, if it was random, then you couldn't prophecy exact events thousands of years later unless Some Almighty Being knows the future, now you cant know the future if it's random. You can't see exact images of future events with CERTAINTY if it's random.
Think about this and you will see things in a different light,
Peace

[Ramadhan]

Could someone tell me whether www.answering-christianity.com is an anti-Islamic site, or is it OK to use? JazakAllah

Brother, it just seems you don't find any of our advice useful. As you admitted yourself, your knowledge of Islam is very weak, and yet you continue to persist in going to those refuting sites rather than studying the basics of Islam. I would suggest you to go to any big mosques near where you live or to islamic centres and enroll in their courses. Face to face studying is still the best for learning anything.
Failing that, you may want to watch those online video lectures such as peacetv, http://www.peacetv.tv/ islamictube, http://www.islamictube.com/ etc. They have good lectures which is very beneficial in increasing knowledge.
And if you have questions about aqeedah and fiqh, this is among the best sites (just put in the keywords in the search box): http://www.islamqa.com/en
Although it currently seems to be down at the moment.

And if you still insists on going to refuting sites, this is a better alternative: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/home

[Pak-istan786]

Assalaamu-Alaikum, I have an honest question here, which I would appreciate if the simplest form of answer was given. I know some people have posted things but they're not clearly making sense to me at the moment.

I wanted to ask what is the key/fundamental difference between what is written here( shown below):

Bones Before Muscle? The Koran got it wrong!
Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

The Koran gives the impression that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with mustle. Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precursors of the bones start forming from the somite at the same time. At the end of the eighth week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.
In a personal letter dated 8/1/87 from Dr. T.W. Sadler, Ph.D., Associate Professor in the Department of Anatomy at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, N.C. 27514, and author of Langman's Medical Embryology, Dr. Sadler states,

"At the 8th week post fertilization, the ribs would be cartilaginous and muscles would be present. Also at this time ossification would begin near the angle of the rib and would spread along the shaft until it reached the costal cartilage by the 4th month. Muscles would be capable of some movement at 8 weeks, but by 10-12 weeks this capacity would be much better developed."

It is always better to have two witnesses so we shall see what Dr. Keith L. Moore has to say about the development of bones and muscles in his book The Developing Human. Extracted from Chapters 15-17 we find the following information:
The skeletal and muscle system develops from the mesoderm, some of which becomes mesenchymal cells. These mesenchymal cells make muscles, and also have the ability to differentiate...into osteoblasts which make bone. At first the bones form as cartilage models so that by the end of the sixth week the whole limb skeleton is formed out of cartilage but without any bony calcium as shown in Figure 15-13. (Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, 4th ed., 1988, p. 346.)
While the bone models are forming, myoblasts develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensor and flexor components. In other words, the limb musculature develops simultaneously in situ from the mesenchyme surrounding the developing bones. So Dr. Moore agrees completely with Dr. Sadler.
Furthermore, during a personal conversation with Dr. Moore I showed him Dr. Sadler's statement and he agreed that it was absolutely valid.
Conclusion: on bone development Dr. Sadler and Dr. Moore agree. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Qur'an states. The Qur'an is in complete error here.


And what is written in their answer:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/al..._by_islamtoday

Because as far as I can understand up to this point, is that the main differences in answer are due to differences in interpretation of the verse, and the first site is wrong in their interpretation of the verse.

The verse is correctly interpreted as Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh."

and NOT AS Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

OR( from the bible.ca site)

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

i.e. the two incorrect verses have 'over-interpreted' and so made things up to deliberately interpret the original verse incorrectly?

Any help will be appreciated, I hope you understand I'm being honest in asking for help here and this is a genuine question.

JazakAllah, wasalaam

[IslamicRevival]

Visiting Anti Islamic websites is like taking poison. I would advise you to stop questioning your religion, You are Muslim and Islam is the truth..period

[Insaanah]

Saffy 786,

Are you a Muslim? (Your religion says Undisclosed, and your gender is brother in humanity rather than brother in Islam)
If so, do you believe that Allah revealed the Qur'an and that it is 100% His word, and that every word of it is the truth?
Do you believe that Allah created the Universe and nobody knows it like the Creator does?
Do you believe that those who have never created an embryo in their life know better, or Allah?
Do you believe that Allah is either creating embryos wrong, or does not know how to create them?

“The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it." (Translation of Qur'an, 51:47)

The Arabic word moos‘ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in.diameter) reflecting telescope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says about this: “The implications of this discovery were immense. The universe, long considered static, was expanding.”

There was one time that people would have said how ridiculous to say the universe is expanding, yet when when man discovers for himself what His Creator already told him 1400 years ago, then man can believe it and it becomes an accepted fact. Humans were a bit (only 1400 years) late on the scene, no?

"Have you not seen how Allaah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap? And you see raindrops issuing from their midst. He sends down hail from the sky from mountains of hail therein, causing it to fall on whom he wills and averting it from whom he wills.” (24:43)

The Gulf News of Friday, May 30th, 1997 carried the following item:

"The Earth is bathed by a steady “cosmic rain” of previously undetected objects from outer space that pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to startling new evidence released Wednesday. The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, disintegrate harmlessly 600 to 15,000 miles up and deposit large clouds of water vapor that eventually falls on Earth’s surface as rain, according to Louis A. Frank of the University of Iowa. He led the research team that for the first time has captured images of these objects...taken at both ultraviolet and visible wavelengths by Frank’s specially designed instrument aboard NASA’s year old Polar spacecraft."

These examples are just the “tip of the iceberg.” There are other remarkably accurate statements about oceanography, geology, cosmogony, physics, biology, embryology, etymology, hydrology and other subjects. As would be expected from the Creator of the universe.

Now, it is up to you whether you wish to believe the enemies of Islam, or whether you wish to believe Allah, your Creator, and the Creator of the embryo, who is creating and seeing every embryo all the time. I just looked at the start date of this thread, and it has been going on for seven months. And still, you are persuing anti-Islamic hate sites. For someone who really wants to believe, it is odd that so much time and effort is being expended on reading the views of those who do not want you to believe, and who want to turn you away from the truth.

People have been very patient in this thread, and provided much evidence and material for you.

The choice is now yours as to what direction you want your life to take.

May Allah guide you to the truth.

"He it is Who has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt, pursue that which is allegorical, seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." (3:7)

[Pak-istan786]

Saffy 786,

Are you a Muslim? (Your religion says Undisclosed, and your gender is brother in humanity rather than brother in Islam)
If so, do you believe that Allah revealed the Qur'an and that it is 100% His word, and that every word of it is the truth?
Do you believe that Allah created the Universe and nobody knows it like the Creator does?
Do you believe that those who have never created an embryo in their life know better, or Allah?
Do you believe that Allah is either creating embryos wrong, or does not know how to create them?

“The heaven I created by might, and, verily, I am expanding it." (Translation of Qur'an, 51:47)

The Arabic word moos‘ioon is an active participle. It indicates an ongoing action that is occurring at the present time and will continue into the future. It was not until the invention of the spectrograph and the development of a huge (100 in.diameter) reflecting telescope that Edward Hubble was able to discover other galaxies in 1926 and to document in 1927 the red shift of their spectra that indicates they are moving away from ours. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says about this: “The implications of this discovery were immense. The universe, long considered static, was expanding.”

There was one time that people would have said how ridiculous to say the universe is expanding, yet when when man discovers for himself what His Creator already told him 1400 years ago, then man can believe it. Humans were a bit (only 1400 years) late on the scene, no?

"Have you not seen how Allaah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap? And you see raindrops issuing from their midst. He sends down hail from the sky from mountains of hail therein, causing it to fall on whom he wills and averting it from whom he wills.” (24:43)

The Gulf News of Friday, May 30th, 1997 carried the following item:

"The Earth is bathed by a steady “cosmic rain” of previously undetected objects from outer space that pour vast quantities of water into the atmosphere, according to startling new evidence released Wednesday. The objects, 20- to 40-ton snowballs the size of two-bedroom houses, streak into the atmosphere by the thousands each day, disintegrate harmlessly 600 to 15,000 miles up and deposit large clouds of water vapor that eventually falls on Earth’s surface as rain, according to Louis A. Frank of the University of Iowa. He led the research team that for the first time has captured images of these objects...taken at both ultraviolet and visible wavelengths by Frank’s specially designed instrument aboard NASA’s year old Polar spacecraft."

These examples are just the “tip of the iceberg.” There are other remarkably accurate statements about oceanography, geology, cosmogony, physics, biology, embryology, etymology, hydrology and other subjects. As would be expected from the Creator of the universe.

Now, it is up to you whether you wish to believe the enemies of Islam, or whether you wish to believe Allah, your Creator, and the Creator of the embryo, who is creating and seeing every embryo all the time. I just looked at the start date of this thread, and it has been going on for seven months. And still, you are persuing anti-Islamic hate sites. For someone who really wants to believe, it is odd that so much time and effort is being expended on reading the views of those who do not want you to believe, and who want to turn you away from the truth.

People have been very patient in this thread, and provided much evidence and material for you.

The choice is now yours as to what direction you want your life to take.

May Allah guide you to the truth.

"He it is Who has revealed unto you (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt, pursue that which is allegorical, seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knows its explanation except Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed." (3:7)

Yes I am a muslim, have been since birth. I had found the original site about 7 months ago, then was reassured and subsequently forgot about it for a few months. Then, in July I started thinking over and worrying again. Also, since late last year I have been experiencing ( some would say severe) mental health problems. I have been diagnosed with a certain mental illness( I am being treated for it), and I've seemed to have lost trust in everything and everyone. Whereas before I used to accept what other people would say easily, be reassured easily, now I feel as though I have to personally have seen everything and understood everything for myself. The persistent curiosity I have now was never there before. Also, I must admit I have lost a lot of confidence and self-esteem. I honestly have no bad intentions I AM a muslim. It's just that at times I feel so depressed, doubtful and can't trust anything. Maybe that's why I feel as though I haven't got the confidence to say to myself " though I will never understand everything or make time out to understand it all, I remain firm in my belief!". But I am getting close to this now however, once my worries are cleared up, and they have mostly gone away.

So that's why I came back to this thread after quite some time. I don't know how seriously you may take what I've written here, but I know that is what has been happening to me for quite some time now. Where my mind settles on one area that it is a lie, it then starts drifting to another area which causes me doubts and so on. But I am so near to ending this phase of doubting now, yet sometimes there are questions in my mind.

So the purpose of this post was just to allow you and others to become more aware of my circumstances. I am helping myself each day, but I don't think it can all be done overnight.

[Ramadhan]

:sl:

and I've seemed to have lost trust in everything and everyone

If such is the case, then nothing we say or explain to you will convince you.

And in similar fashion, nothing anti Islamic sites say should also not convince you.

What is clear to anyone is: you doubt everything we say/explain here and yet have more trust on anti Islamic site even though those anti islamic sites are clearly wrong.
Here's an answer from a muslim embryologist: http://www.medicine4faith.net/?p=53

Your stance is very confusing. It does appear you have more trust in the lies of anti Islam website.

Anyway, even if you don't have trust for anyone on earth, shouldn't you have absolute trust in Allah?
Unless you don't believe in Allah and don't believe Al Qur'an is His words.

[Abz2000]

bro - again.....
the verse: "Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)
is the resurrection process and is NOT the verse to look at if you're looking for the creation process, please refer to your Quran translation,

i'll repeat a part of it again for the sake of clarification - but please refer to the previous page for a more detailed answer:

the creation process is described in Surah Mu-minun amongst others:
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood ('Alaqah) ; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump (Mudghah); then we made out of that lump bones ('Izuaam) and clothed the bones with flesh (lahm); then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!
Quran 23-14

the Quran clearly says the Mudghah comes before the bones or meat,
now many people have attempted to interpret the word "mudhah" and come out with different explanations - some have said chewed appearance, or chewed substance, some have said lump, and some have given other interpretations - now we know it hasn't been chewed by anyone so it could mean chewed appearance or something not completely defined - or anything that Almighty God may have intended,
after the bones part the term "lahm" is used, this is almost unanimously interpreted as "meat" or "flesh", how do we know that Almighty God does not define this stage as different from the pre-skeletal stage - as the composition of the substance is constantly changing?
would you call sperm meat? the sperm didn't change into meat in a split second and other things were happening during this process of transformation so why two different names for sperm and meat???
and is there anything wrong or "un-scientific" with having a name for the post-sperm, pre-meat substance?
and if you went into a shop and asked for "lahm" they wouldn't start looking for "muscle", they would ask if you wanted lamb or beef meat - so why go to those acrobatics to say the Quran was talking about muscle???
obviously composition of the "chewed" pre-skeletal stuff is not the same as the post skeletal stuff even though the transition is occurring during the formation of cartilage, so if Almighty God decided to use two different terms to describe pre-skeletal flesh and post-skeletal flesh, does that mean it's wrong? or does it mean that he gave it a different definition.

AGAIN - i explained this on the previous page and you again used the same verse from Surah Baqarah which is totally out of context, i don't know if it's because you never read it - or read it and decided to post the same verse again...........God knows...........
peace

[Perseveranze]

Assalaamu-Alaikum, I have an honest question here, which I would appreciate if the simplest form of answer was given. I know some people have posted things but they're not clearly making sense to me at the moment.

I wanted to ask what is the key/fundamental difference between what is written here( shown below):

Bones Before Muscle? The Koran got it wrong!
Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

The Koran gives the impression that first the skeleton is formed, and then it is clothed with mustle. Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precursors of the bones start forming from the somite at the same time. At the end of the eighth week there are only a few centers of ossification started but the fetus is already capable of some muscular movement.
In a personal letter dated 8/1/87 from Dr. T.W. Sadler, Ph.D., Associate Professor in the Department of Anatomy at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, N.C. 27514, and author of Langman's Medical Embryology, Dr. Sadler states,

"At the 8th week post fertilization, the ribs would be cartilaginous and muscles would be present. Also at this time ossification would begin near the angle of the rib and would spread along the shaft until it reached the costal cartilage by the 4th month. Muscles would be capable of some movement at 8 weeks, but by 10-12 weeks this capacity would be much better developed."

It is always better to have two witnesses so we shall see what Dr. Keith L. Moore has to say about the development of bones and muscles in his book The Developing Human. Extracted from Chapters 15-17 we find the following information:
The skeletal and muscle system develops from the mesoderm, some of which becomes mesenchymal cells. These mesenchymal cells make muscles, and also have the ability to differentiate...into osteoblasts which make bone. At first the bones form as cartilage models so that by the end of the sixth week the whole limb skeleton is formed out of cartilage but without any bony calcium as shown in Figure 15-13. (Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human, 4th ed., 1988, p. 346.)
While the bone models are forming, myoblasts develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensor and flexor components. In other words, the limb musculature develops simultaneously in situ from the mesenchyme surrounding the developing bones. So Dr. Moore agrees completely with Dr. Sadler.
Furthermore, during a personal conversation with Dr. Moore I showed him Dr. Sadler's statement and he agreed that it was absolutely valid.
Conclusion: on bone development Dr. Sadler and Dr. Moore agree. There is no time when calcified bones have been formed and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones as the Qur'an states. The Qur'an is in complete error here.


And what is written in their answer:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/al..._by_islamtoday

Because as far as I can understand up to this point, is that the main differences in answer are due to differences in interpretation of the verse, and the first site is wrong in their interpretation of the verse.

The verse is correctly interpreted as Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh."

and NOT AS Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

OR( from the bible.ca site)

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.

"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

i.e. the two incorrect verses have 'over-interpreted' and so made things up to deliberately interpret the original verse incorrectly?

Any help will be appreciated, I hope you understand I'm being honest in asking for help here and this is a genuine question.

JazakAllah, wasalaam

Brother, this is the correct answer -

/////Question: Allah says: "Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators." [23:14]

There seems to be a scientific error in this verse. According to modern embryologists including Professor Moore, the tissue from which bone originates - known as mesoderm - is the same tissue as that from which muscle (flesh) develops. Thus bone and muscle begin to develop simultaneously, rather than sequentially (as the Qur'an seems to be telling us).

The idea that bones are clothed with flesh is not only scientifically completely wrong, but seems to be directly copied from the ancient Greek doctor Galen's hypothesis.

Please clarify this matter for me.


--------------------------------------

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

It is inconceivable that the true word of Allah could ever contradict scientific fact, since the universe is Allah's creation, and Allah fully knows what He created. A Muslim, when faced with what appears to be a contradiction between the Qur'ân and a scientific fact knows there can only be two possibilities:
1. That which is being construed as a scientific "fact" is not in actuality a fact.

2. The verse that is being construed as being in conflict with science is being misinterpreted, misapplied, or misunderstood.
Any claim being made that there is a contradiction between science and the Qur'ân has to be evaluated individually. The factuality of the scientific claim needs to be assessed as well as the true meaning of the verse that is supposedly at variance with it.

With respect to the issue of the concurrent development of bone and muscle tissue, this is a directly observable fact. Therefore, we must look carefully at the verse to ascertain exactly what the Qur'ân is saying and - more importantly - what it is not saying.

You provide this translation for the following verse:
"Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be God, the Best of creators." [Sûrah al-Mu'minûn: 14]

You further contend that this verse contradicts what we know in embryology that the bone and muscle develop simultaneously from the mesoderm.

When we read the verse, it says that the bones are created from the "little lump of flesh" (mudghah). This in no way implies that bones are created before flesh and then this little naked skeleton is given flesh. It actually more clearly implies a concurrent development, since some sort of flesh is always there from the start. Nowhere in the verse does it say that the bones have finished forming. Nowhere does it even imply that muscle tissue is not developing concurrently. The wording of the verse is quite vague on this point and what it says is quite compatible with what we know of embryology. All that the verse is stating is that flesh - we might venture to assume differentiated muscle tissue, since the Arabic word lahm (meat, flesh) is generally used exclusively for muscle tissue - is attached to bones as the bones begin to form. Allah says: ".then We clothed the bones with flesh." Allah does not say: "Then we created flesh and clothed the bones with it."

Therefore, the problem that you cite stems from assumptions being made about the verse's meaning and not from what the verse is actually saying.////

[Ramadhan]

Yeah, I've just realized the anti islamic site that br. saffy786 actually took the ayat out of context:

Keith L. Moore knows that the Koran is wrong when it says that bones are formed first, then flesh is placed upon them.
"Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)

As was explained by. br abz2000, al Baqara:259 actually narrates a resurrection process of a dead donkey whose remains were only bones, not an embryology process:

the verse: "Look further at the bones, how We bring them together and clothe them with flesh ..." (Al-Baqara 2:259)
is the resurrection process and is NOT the verse to look at if you're looking for the creation process, please refer to your Quran translation,

Bro, as you can see in this example that brought to us, that anti Islamic site deliberately took and presented the ayat our of context. And because your islamic knowledge is weak, you didn't know that.
Do you think this is the only "mistake" that those sites made?
NO.
In articles after articles, in refutations after refutations, those anti-Islamic sites deliberately, consciously, making lies, taking ayats or hadiths out of context, cutting off parts of ayats and hadiths, misquote and mistranslates ayats and hadiths etc.
Sometimes in my research on certain topics of Islam, unknowingly, google took me to those site times to times, but it only made me angry because I was able to identify some of those lies, mistranslations, misquotes, etc. Some of those lies were so blatant and ridiculous where they completely made up/invented a hadith or even an ayat!
Bro, you must realize that in some other religions, they are allowed to lie to attract people to their religions, and so we must protect ourselves from those.

[GuestFellow]

Visiting Anti Islamic websites is like taking poison.

Salaam,

I agree that anti-Islamic websites are poison. There is no need to visit them. You might as well learn Arabic and read Islamic books.

[True-blue]

Surprised to see this thread has become this much loooong showing anxiety because of such a poor site.

[Pak-istan786]

You know what I don't get about these anti-Islamic sites is how do they manage to think of such strange lies? Thier creativity is quite remarkable, and sometimes I fail to see what could have triggered their thoughts to create such lies. For example, as shown below:

He wrote:

13- In Koran 7:125, death by crucifixion is stated to exist at the time of Moses in 1500BC. Yet Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC. My question is: to how do you explain this blaring historical error, and do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?



My response:

I found no mention of crucifixtion in Noble Verse 7:125, and I am not aware of any Noble Verse related to your claim. Here is what Noble Verses 7:120-130 say:

"But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration. Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,- "The Lord of Moses and Aaron." Said Pharaoh: "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this is a trick which ye have planned in the city to drive out its people: but soon shall ye know (the consequences). "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on apposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross." They said: "For us, We are but sent back unto our Lord: "But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto thee as Muslims (who bow to thy will)! Said the chiefs of Pharaoh's people: "Wilt thou leave Moses and his people, to spread mischief in the land, and to abandon thee and thy gods?" He said: "Their male children will we slay; (only) their females will we save alive; and we have over them (power) irresistible." Said Moses to his people: "Pray for help from God, and (wait) in patience and constancy: for the earth is God's, to give as a heritage to such of His servants as He pleaseth; and the end is (best) for the righteous. They said: "We have had (nothing but) trouble, both before and after thou camest to us." He said: "It may be that your Lord will destroy your enemy and make you inheritors in the earth; that so He may try you by your deeds." We punished the people of Pharaoh with years (of droughts) and shortness of crops; that they might receive admonition. (The Noble Quran, 7:120-130)"

Is this another lie you invented "brother Andrew"?

It seems that this anti-Islamic guy completely made that claim up and picked some random verse to say his point was found in. Do these people think that others will simply look at their site and take everything as it is written e.g. in this example, not actually look up the verse for themselves! Is anyone aware of any verse related to the anti-Islamic guy's claim!?

[Insaanah]

You have GOT to stop this.

Whereas before I used to accept what other people would say easily, be reassured easily, now I feel as though I have to personally have seen everything and understood everything for myself.

It is one thing for someone to say something to you, and for you to have doubts about it, but it is another thing altogether for you to go out of your way to actively look for such things, which is what you appear to be doing.

You have put yourself on a dangerous path. If you want to look at these things, strengthen your knowledge of Islam first, so that you know how to deal with them. If you don't know where to start, even if it's the basics of the deen, post new threads in the other sections of the forum, and read the beneficial threads in the Worship in Islam, Aqeedah, New to Islam, etc sections. Create threads there and your brothers and sisters on the forum will do the best they can to help you learn and to strengthen your faith.

As the brothers have already pointed out to you, these sites are full of lies. Like the ayah the enemies of Islam said was about embryology when it was actually about the resurrection of a dead donkey. But you just believe anything they say.

In Koran 7:125, death by crucifixion is stated to exist at the time of Moses in 1500BC. Yet Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC. My question is: to how do you explain this blaring historical error, and do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?

Firstly, there is not one, but two blaring errors actually in their question. They have just picked a verse at random without knowledge. The actual reference for the verse in question is 7:124, not 7:125. Secondly, crucifixion at the time of Prophet Musa alayhi assalaam is not the earliest record in the Qur'an.

Pickthall
"O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire." (Qur'an 12:41) It actually existed before the time of Musa alayhi assalaam, at least at the time of Prophet Yusuf alayhi assalaam, if not before.

And, a scholarly article with in depth research into the history of crucifixion, that examines ancient written and pictorial evidence, says that crucifixion existed at least 1700 years bc, and even earlier, not just 500 years bc as the liars want you to believe. They have no brains and use their tools of lying, twisting facts and hiding facts they don't want you to know, to mislead people. The article says, "What is interesting to note is that the earliest available evidence of the occurrence of crucifixion in ancient Egypt is seen in Papyrus Boulaq 18 from the time of Sobekhotep II / Chendjer of the 13th Dynasty in the Second Intermediate Period. Joseph, according to majority of scholars, entered Egypt during the rule of the Hyksos who formed the 15th and 16th Dynasties in the Second Intermediate Period. This means that crucifixion happened in Egypt even before Joseph entered Egypt."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...l/crucify.html

In this example you have quoted, I have checked the liars source, the Encyclopedia Britannica, and, as usual, they are lying again. They want to turn people away from Islam, and cause doubt in people's hearts, and they have you wrapped around their little finger.

Encyclopedia Britannica, in harmony with all records of history, reports that crucifixion did not exist any earlier than 500 BC.

This is a lie. The Encyclopedia Britannica states no such thing. This is what it says, "Crucifixion, an important method of capital punishment, particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century bce to the 4th century ce."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...83/crucifixion

In other words it was a method of punishment, particularly popular among that group of people, at about those times. It does NOT say that it did not exist before that. It says it is notable particularly in those periods among those people. Nowhere does it say it did not occur before this. Not only does the Encyclopedia Britannica not say that, but also no other sources say that it did not exist before 500BC. Another lie of theirs exposed.

History is only as good as the written/pictorial/archeological records on which it's based. If something happened plenty, and for a long time, but didn't get recorded in writing, or the records didn't survive the rigours of time, does that mean it never happened? Think for yourself. And Allah's record is the most accurate, as He knows everything that ever happened, and when it happened.

do you just disregard the history of the world merely because the Karen says otherwise?

Astaghfirullah, they even mock the name of our Holy book.

Surprised to see this thread has become this much loooong showing anxiety because of such a poor site.

I agree. I rest my case here; it shows every kind of lie and falsehood they are using. If you persist on going to such sites, and reading such lies and falsehood, rather than the beautiful truth Allah has sent down to us, I will not be answering any longer.

I hope to see you posting, in future, in threads to increase your Islamic knowledge, where your brothers and sisters can help you with knowledge of the deen, rather than this one.

[Ramadhan]

Saffy786,

What is your point exactly?

I was going to write exactly the same thing as what sis. Insaanah wrote above.

And even if Encyclopedia Britannica said crucifixion did not exist before 500 BC, how do you know it is true?
Human knowledge keep changing all the time, and especially in the field of ancient history: they keep getting revised.
Let me give you an example: Only 20 years ago scientists believed human only started to colonize Australia around 30,000 years ago., but then they found more discoveries along the way and now they changed their earlier estimate and claimed human already arrived in Australia as early as 45,000 years ago with some scientists even said 70,000 years ago.
so You see, our knowledge and even science keep changing all the time and it is never absolute. So even if britannica says that something is A, it does not mean that it actually is A.

But thanks to sis. Insaanah, we know that encyclopaedia britannica did not make that stupid mistake and never claimed that crucifixion did not exist before 500 BC.
Also, the word that is used in the Qur'an verse does not mean roman crucifixion (geometrical cross), but more "impalement and hanging by suspension", and there are even ancient carved panels that show this method of killing was used by Assyrian kings (800-900 BC) and even in egyptian hieroglyphs.

Hence it is clear in that one sentence alone from anti-Islamic website, there are already so many lies.

My advice to you has not changed:
study Islam, strengthen your knowledge, learn how to read Qur'an and study arabic, and keep away from anti-Islamic sites.

[Pak-istan786]

You have GOT to stop this.



It is one thing for someone to say something to you, and for you to have doubts about it, but it is another thing altogether for you to go out of your way to actively look for such things, which is what you appear to be doing.

You have put yourself on a dangerous path. If you want to look at these things, strengthen your knowledge of Islam first, so that you know how to deal with them. If you don't know where to start, even if it's the basics of the deen, post new threads in the other sections of the forum, and read the beneficial threads in the Worship in Islam, Aqeedah, New to Islam, etc sections. Create threads there and your brothers and sisters on the forum will do the best they can to help you learn and to strengthen your faith.

As the brothers have already pointed out to you, these sites are full of lies. Like the ayah the enemies of Islam said was about embryology when it was actually about the resurrection of a dead donkey. But you just believe anything they say.



Firstly, there is not one, but two blaring errors actually in their question. They have just picked a verse at random without knowledge. The actual reference for the verse in question is 7:124, not 7:125. Secondly, crucifixion at the time of Prophet Musa alayhi assalaam is not the earliest record in the Qur'an.

Pickthall
"O my two fellow-prisoners! As for one of you, he will pour out wine for his lord to drink; and as for the other, he will be crucified so that the birds will eat from his head. Thus is the case judged concerning which ye did inquire." (Qur'an 12:41) It actually existed before the time of Musa alayhi assalaam, at least at the time of Prophet Yusuf alayhi assalaam, if not before.

And, a scholarly article with in depth research into the history of crucifixion, that examines ancient written and pictorial evidence, says that crucifixion existed at least 1700 years bc, and even earlier, not just 500 years bc as the liars want you to believe. They have no brains and use their tools of lying, twisting facts and hiding facts they don't want you to know, to mislead people. The article says, "What is interesting to note is that the earliest available evidence of the occurrence of crucifixion in ancient Egypt is seen in Papyrus Boulaq 18 from the time of Sobekhotep II / Chendjer of the 13th Dynasty in the Second Intermediate Period. Joseph, according to majority of scholars, entered Egypt during the rule of the Hyksos who formed the 15th and 16th Dynasties in the Second Intermediate Period. This means that crucifixion happened in Egypt even before Joseph entered Egypt."

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...l/crucify.html

In this example you have quoted, I have checked the liars source, the Encyclopedia Britannica, and, as usual, they are lying again. They want to turn people away from Islam, and cause doubt in people's hearts, and they have you wrapped around their little finger.



This is a lie. The Encyclopedia Britannica states no such thing. This is what it says, "Crucifixion, an important method of capital punishment, particularly among the Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century bce to the 4th century ce."

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...83/crucifixion

In other words it was a method of punishment, particularly popular among that group of people, at about those times. It does NOT say that it did not exist before that. It says it is notable particularly in those periods among those people. Nowhere does it say it did not occur before this. Not only does the Encyclopedia Britannica not say that, but also no other sources say that it did not exist before 500BC. Another lie of theirs exposed.

History is only as good as the written/pictorial/archeological records on which it's based. If something happened plenty, and for a long time, but didn't get recorded in writing, or the records didn't survive the rigours of time, does that mean it never happened? Think for yourself. And Allah's record is the most accurate, as He knows everything that ever happened, and when it happened.



Astaghfirullah, they even mock the name of our Holy book.


I agree. I rest my case here; it shows every kind of lie and falsehood they are using. If you persist on going to such sites, and reading such lies and falsehood, rather than the beautiful truth Allah has sent down to us, I will not be answering any longer.

I hope to see you posting, in future, in threads to increase your Islamic knowledge, where your brothers and sisters can help you with knowledge of the deen, rather than this one.

Well thank you very much for your response, it was very informing indeed. I could never have estimated the no. of lies to to be found there, and you are right no matter how much I try, until I stop going on these sites I will not improve. I worry so much over these things when I visit such sites, and they will all prove to be false as always, I have concluded. So much worrying for nothing I think. I understood your answer completely, and this site I am now finally convinced is a completely false site. I am embarassed to admit that this site did have wrapped around its little finger, and I did become so doubtful from pretty much this site and all it's articles alone. So now I am truly going to close this chapter, and I know doubts will recur as is their nature though I know what to do now. Most importantly, I'll refer back to this thread, though I feel fairly confident I should not allow these things to bother me again.

I am insha Allah going to take my Islamic History book out which we used to study at Madrassa some time ago, because I know it is all interesting and I would enjoy reading and studying it. I have always been fascinated in history and love learning new things, and in this case I was so shook by all the doubts and confusions that I just didn't feel motivated to work through them all and find relief. I will start looking into things gradually when I can make time out for them, and insha Allah I will. JazakAllah for your help, you seem to be an intelligent woman, sister.

[Pak-istan786]

Saffy786,

What is your point exactly?

I was going to write exactly the same thing as what sis. Insaanah wrote above.

And even if Encyclopedia Britannica said crucifixion did not exist before 500 BC, how do you know it is true?
Human knowledge keep changing all the time, and especially in the field of ancient history: they keep getting revised.
Let me give you an example: Only 20 years ago scientists believed human only started to colonize Australia around 30,000 years ago., but then they found more discoveries along the way and now they changed their earlier estimate and claimed human already arrived in Australia as early as 45,000 years ago with some scientists even said 70,000 years ago.
so You see, our knowledge and even science keep changing all the time and it is never absolute. So even if britannica says that something is A, it does not mean that it actually is A.

But thanks to sis. Insaanah, we know that encyclopaedia britannica did not make that stupid mistake and never claimed that crucifixion did not exist before 500 BC.
Also, the word that is used in the Qur'an verse does not mean roman crucifixion (geometrical cross), but more "impalement and hanging by suspension", and there are even ancient carved panels that show this method of killing was used by Assyrian kings (800-900 BC) and even in egyptian hieroglyphs.

Hence it is clear in that one sentence alone from anti-Islamic website, there are already so many lies.

My advice to you has not changed:
study Islam, strengthen your knowledge, learn how to read Qur'an and study arabic, and keep away from anti-Islamic sites.

JazakAllah for your help too, I will try now to follow your advice :statisfie

[Insaanah]

Well thank you very much for your response, it was very informing indeed. I could never have estimated the no. of lies to to be found there, and you are right no matter how much I try, until I stop going on these sites I will not improve. I worry so much over these things when I visit such sites, and they will all prove to be false as always, I have concluded. So much worrying for nothing I think. I understood your answer completely, and this site I am now finally convinced is a completely false site. I am embarassed to admit that this site did have wrapped around its little finger, and I did become so doubtful from pretty much this site and all it's articles alone. So now I am truly going to close this chapter, and I know doubts will recur as is their nature though I know what to do now. Most importantly, I'll refer back to this thread, though I feel fairly confident I should not allow these things to bother me again.

I am insha Allah going to take my Islamic History book out which we used to study at Madrassa some time ago, because I know it is all interesting and I would enjoy reading and studying it. I have always been fascinated in history and love learning new things, and in this case I was so shook by all the doubts and confusions that I just didn't feel motivated to work through them all and find relief. I will start looking into things gradually when I can make time out for them, and insha Allah I will. JazakAllah for your help,

Wa iyyaak. Alhamdulillah, I am glad to hear it. May Allah help you, make things easy for you, increase you in Islamic knowledge, and may He give you peace of mind and heart in the beauty and Ultimate Truth of His words, ameen.

:sl:

[CosmicPathos]

I dont know if its the skeptic in me, do you guys really believe that the OP is a Muslim?

I mean ignorance is one thing and then stupidity is another. He keeps on pestering same questions again and again, and never acknowledges his mistake. As ramadhan showed that donkey verse was taken out of context, this OP never replied to that and said "I apologize, I see the truth now." No. Rather he keeps on bullshi-itting about how he likes to discover new things and bull-crap.

and then he talks about mental problems. If you have mental problems that are this severe, your psychiatrist should have told your parents to nto elt you sit on internet, lest you start going on suicide sites and commit suicide or start going on murder sites and then go out one day to a middle school and maim small children.

[CosmicPathos]

oh God, I realized this thread was dead for quite some time.

epic fail for reviving an ancient thread!

[Perseveranze]

Well even though it's a grave dig, it's worth me posting that recently some Academic research work has been going on in regards to this subject, so I would strongly recommend the following, which pretty much puts it beyond doubt -

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/?page_id=61

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/?page_id=720

http://islampapers.com/category/embryology/