Angel Gabriel and Mohammed question

[gmcbroom]

I have a question concerning what I'd read on a Catholic Forum. Some one wrote that the Angel Gabriel tightly squeezed Mohammed in the beginning. They said the angel painfully squeezed him. So my question is why would he did that? The angel Gabriel in the Gospel did not behave in such a manner. Could he have? Sure, but that would be counter productive in the long run as it would cause fear. So why the difference between the two accounts. To be fair this is something that doesn't strike me as something an angel from a loving God would do. Now Satan sure. As he doesn't love anything and would do almost anything to cause pain to God. Of course, you could also say why would I believe what I read on a website. Simple, I'm catholic and that's a catholic website so I go there.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

[Woodrow]

Peace gm,

I never had any concern about that and therefore had never really thought about it. But, to me it was a very logical thing to have been done. Muhammad(PBUH) was a very humble man and there is no indication he ever considered himself worthy of being a Prophet(PBUH). something had to be done to make him understand without question that Jibreel was really speaking to him. I am certain this convinced him.

On a similar note the last time Haley's comet passed by my son was 5 years old. I took him out to an area far from any town lights to view it clearly. He looked up at it and did not seem very impressed.. I gave him a fairly hard swat on his bottom. He looked up at me and holding back tears he asked why I spanked him, I said "Son, this is an event you probably will never see again. One day you will forgive me for swatting you, but I can guarantee you will never forget having seen Haley's Comet"

so it was with Muhammad(PBUH) he was certain Jibreel really did visit him.

Just my opinion and I can not prove it, but to me it makes sense as to why Jibreel would have squeezed him.

[Abu-Abdullah]

i read that the angel Jibril [as] held and sqeezed the Prophet muhammad [saw] too, but not sure wether this report is a hundred percent authentic; if it should be then there is no problem with it, for the reception of something so good and powerfull as the Quran, to be embedded in the prophet [saw's] heart, and that which would change the world for the better, could well require a bit of sacrifice for ALlah; i.e, to undergo a bit of hardship; the eternal paradise and salvation for a huge number of humanity and a Mercy to the whole world is worth a bit of sacrifice for ALlah; hardship in the path of ALlah instills more love for the truth

it is said that when the angel of death came to take the Prophet [saw's] soul and touched the Prophet saw's] chest, it felt as though the mountain of uhud had fallen on his chest

Peace

[PouringRain]

I have a question concerning what I'd read on a Catholic Forum. Some one wrote that the Angel Gabriel tightly squeezed Mohammed in the beginning. They said the angel painfully squeezed him. So my question is why would he did that? The angel Gabriel in the Gospel did not behave in such a manner. Could he have? Sure, but that would be counter productive in the long run as it would cause fear. So why the difference between the two accounts. To be fair this is something that doesn't strike me as something an angel from a loving God would do. Now Satan sure. As he doesn't love anything and would do almost anything to cause pain to God. Of course, you could also say why would I believe what I read on a website. Simple, I'm catholic and that's a catholic website so I go there.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

In the Bible and angel wrestled with Jacob, and even caused Jacob's hip joint to come out of socket. I'm sure it was painful. Yet through it Jacob was blessed and his name changed to Israel.

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[- Qatada -]

Hi gmcbroom :)


It is possible that Angel Gabriel squeezed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) tightly to show him that you are not day dreaming, you are not in a state of sleep. You are facing the reality, and what is going to come to you is a heavy and powerful message.


This is not a strange phenomena, since when a message comes to a Messenger, it makes them in awe. Even when Moses first spoke to God, he was in extreme awe. This feeling actually enhances an experience and makes the reciever of the message feel humbled and more accepting to a message.

[Zafran]

Salaam

When the angels came to see Abhrham pbuh Abhrham pbuh was also scared when he gave them food and they wouldnt eat. Thats in the Quran.

peace

[AhlaamBella]

I agree with the above posts stating that in tightly squeezing the Prophet p.b.u.h it was ensuring he was not dreaming and it was in fact reality.

However, I have also read that the angel embraced firmly not painfully. Allah knows best as these are recordings or subject to opinions.

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

Christian and there Satan theories lol...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

In the Bible and angel wrestled with Jacob, .

was it angel or God Himself ? If I clearly remeber , Jacob was the winner ?

[PouringRain]

Salaam/Peace



was it angel or God Himself ? If I clearly remeber , Jacob was the winner ?

Traditionally, it is an angel. There is a Judaic line of thought that it was more specifically Jacob's brother Esau's (guardian) angel. In Christianity, some believe that this was a christophany, and the angel was really Jesus, thus literally being God. (Some christians believe there are several places in the OT where angels were actually Jesus.)

But overall, for the most part, it is traditionally held to be an angel.

Jacob did win in one sense. He certainly triumphed over the angel, but he was left with a limp because of it.

[IAmZamzam]

I have a question concerning what I'd read on a Catholic Forum. Some one wrote that the Angel Gabriel tightly squeezed Mohammed in the beginning. They said the angel painfully squeezed him. So my question is why would he did that? The angel Gabriel in the Gospel did not behave in such a manner. Could he have? Sure, but that would be counter productive in the long run as it would cause fear. So why the difference between the two accounts. To be fair this is something that doesn't strike me as something an angel from a loving God would do. Now Satan sure. As he doesn't love anything and would do almost anything to cause pain to God. Of course, you could also say why would I believe what I read on a website. Simple, I'm catholic and that's a catholic website so I go there.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

What it says is that the experience of receiving the revelations, of being communicated to by such numinous beings, was like having something painfully squeezed into him.

As for Gabriel acting unbecoming in Islamic scripture compared to in the Gospels, I am simply amazed at how backwards you have it!

Back when I was a Christian, I was rather disturbed by Gabriel’s reaction when Zachariah (peace be on him) exhibited the under-standable signs of shock and temporary incredulity when he found out that his menopausal wife was going to have a child. He doesn’t really do anything but act surprised and express a healthy concern that all this might not really be happening (i.e. that he’s hallucinating or dreaming), but Gabriel gets angry for no good reason and punishes him for having the natural human reaction--which is unfair, if you think about it, since Mary had the same reaction to her similar news and didn’t get cursed for it. Here is the story as told by the author of Luke:

"And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord...Zechari’ah was troubled when he saw him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him, 'Do not be afraid, Zechari’ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; for he will be great before the Lord....He will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God...to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.'

And Zechari’ah said to the angel, 'How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.' And the angel answered him, 'I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news. And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time.'” (Luke 1:11-20)

What’s the big deal, Gabriel? Is this how God’s angel is supposed to act? Here is the Koran’s version of the story, in which this rather disturbing element is removed:

"[Gabriel said] 'O Zachariah, We give thee good tidings of a boy, whose name is John. No namesake have We given him aforetime.' He said, 'O my Lord, how shall I have a son, seeing my wife is barren, and I have attained to the declining of old age?' Said he, 'So it shall be; thy Lord says, Easy is that for Me, seeing that I created thee aforetime, when thou wast nothing.' He said, 'Lord, appoint to me some sign.' Said He, 'Thy sign is that thou shalt not speak to men, though being without fault, three nights.' So he came forth unto his people from the Sanctuary, then he made signal to them, 'Give you glory at dawn and evening.'" (The Koran Interpreted 19:7-11)

We can see that here the oversensitivity and cruelty that Gabriel shows in the Bible is not present in the Koran’s version of the tale. Instead, Zachariah (peace be on him) simply asks for a sign and gets it, and Gabriel and his sign inspires Zachariah (peace be on him) to preach God’s word, which he does. Doesn’t that sound more likely to have happened than what the Bible portrays, given that God’s righteousness is supposed to be reflected in His angels, who do nothing but His will?

[IAmZamzam]

Traditionally, it is an angel. There is a Judaic line of thought that it was more specifically Jacob's brother Esau's (guardian) angel. In Christianity, some believe that this was a christophany, and the angel was really Jesus, thus literally being God. (Some christians believe there are several places in the OT where angels were actually Jesus.)

But overall, for the most part, it is traditionally held to be an angel.

Jacob did win in one sense. He certainly triumphed over the angel, but he was left with a limp because of it.

Funny how the text refers to the man as God. It seems to me that the assumption that he's an angel is pulled out of nowhere because Christians and Jews are embarrassed by what the text actually says. This is from the same book, if memory serves, which said that God liked to walk in the gardens to catch the cool breezes. The modern Torah simply has too anthropomorphic a depiction of God and that's all she wrote.

[Ramadhan]

Christian and there Satan theories lol...

Well, gmcbroom previously in another thread accused the prophet SAW of receiving knowledge from arian priests.

And now he is saying the prophet was actually receiving knowledge from satan.

He cannot even make up his mind.

I don't really blame him though. Now I actually pity him.

You gotta be screwed up in the mental department to seriously believe that God the creator of this universe decided to put on drag suit and parading as a human, and then committed suicide because he couldn't forgive human sins any other way.

[PouringRain]

Funny how the text refers to the man as God. It seems to me that the assumption that he's an angel is pulled out of nowhere because Christians and Jews are embarrassed by what the text actually says. This is from the same book, if memory serves, which said that God liked to walk in the gardens to catch the cool breezes. The modern Torah simply has too anthropomorphic a depiction of God and that's all she wrote.

The text says he struggled with God, it does not say the "man" (angel) was God. There is a difference. Jacob asked for his name and he would not say. The angel says that Jacob "struggled with man and with God" and Jacob says that he saw God face to face. No where does it say the angel was God, nor does the angel say that he was God. Jacob's interpretation that he struggled with God does not mean that it was actually God. If you take the words of the angel who said that he "struggled with God and with man" then the more logical conclusion would not be to assume that it was God, but that it was man, since the text just prior says that Jacob wrestled with a man. But also look at Hosea 12. It says Jacob "struggled with God, yes he struggled with the angel." Again, this does not mean that the angel was God. The angel is an acting agent.

But if taken together, the struggle with man and God also transcends beyond the physical struggle that just occurred with the angel. It becomes both the struggle with man (himself) and an internal spiritual struggle with God. The Bible indicates that he was alone when he wrestled with man. This could be indicative that he was literally alone, and the man with whom he struggled with was himself. He had come to a place internally, where he was struggling with both man (his carnal self) and God (his spirituality), as he sought to reconcile the two. In the end, the physical (carnal) yielded to the spiritual, which was indicated by the dislocation of his hip.



It is like in the Bible when the hebrew word for satan is also used to describe the evil inclinations of man. So, while the term can refer to an external being, it also can refer to an internal inclination and the internal struggle against. When man struggles internally with ha-satan, it is not that he has a literal "devil" inside of him, but that he is struggling with his internal "opposer/ "accuser" that tempts him away from God.

I could say much more on both of the above, but really it is not the purpose of this thread nor the point of my initial post. My point was to show the original poster that even in the Bible are accounts of where angels have "hurt" man, and it was completely in line with God's plan. Not every event in the Bible is to be taken literally, but it also does not mean that a literal event could have happened. Likewise, not every event in the qur'an is not to be taken as literal. There are many deeper truths and meanings. That is also why the study of the qur'an relies on tafsir to aid in understanding it (and even hadiths at times). I often think people should study more biblical "tafsir" as well. But that also is not the point of this thread.

[YusufNoor]

I have a question concerning what I'd read on a Catholic Forum.

yes, because you can learn SO much about Islam from Catholic Forums!


Some one wrote that the Angel Gabriel tightly squeezed Mohammed in the beginning. They said the angel painfully squeezed him. So my question is why would he did that?

the Prophet, pbuh, refused to comply with Jibreel's request. he then hugged him tightly! 3 times this happened.


The angel Gabriel in the Gospel did not behave in such a manner.

in YOUR Gospel, you have an encounter between Gibreel, pbuh, and Muhammad ibn Abdullah, pbuh? please tell us more!


Could he have? Sure, but that would be counter productive in the long run as it would cause fear.

let's see, destroying the world [Noah, pbuh], destroying Sodom & Gomorrah [Ibrahim & Lut, pbut], killing the firstborn of Egypt [Moses, pbuh, Exodus], destroying Israel & Judah were what? supposed to cause Joy? when Jonah refused to obey, he got swallowed by a BIG fish! what was that, like a trip to the spa?


So why the difference between the two accounts.

what 2 accounts? in YOUR gospels, Jibreel, pbuh, appears to Marriam Umm Isa, same thing happens in the Quran, EXCEPT in the Qur'an, "God" doesn't get someone's wife pregnant. [nawuthubillah]

To be fair this is something that doesn't strike me as something an angel from a loving God would do.

see above

Now Satan sure. As he doesn't love anything and would do almost anything to cause pain to God.

according to YOUR gospels "God" was stripped, whipped and hung! but what? you are saying that would have been painless?

Of course, you could also say why would I believe what I read on a website. Simple, I'm catholic and that's a catholic website so I go there.

so you believe that "God" created priests to rape little boys and girls? no pain there either, eh?

Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

with ALL God did in YOUR OT and NT, you believe a hug is out of the question? ^o)

dang!

ciao

[IAmZamzam]

PouringRain, there are two gaping holes in your theory:

1. He said he saw God, face to face. There was no one else there to be face-to-face with and the only other way of "seeing God's face" is by dying and going to heaven.
2. No one ever ceases fully and permanently to struggle with God while they're still alive.

[Zafran]

PouringRain, there are two gaping holes in your theory:

1. He said he saw God, face to face. There was no one else there to be face-to-face with and the only other way of "seeing God's face" is by dying and going to heaven.
2. No one ever ceases fully and permanently to struggle with God while they're still alive.

salaam

Keep on the topic - this isnt a bash christainty thread.

peace

[PouringRain]

PouringRain, there are two gaping holes in your theory:

1. He said he saw God, face to face. There was no one else there to be face-to-face with and the only other way of "seeing God's face" is by dying and going to heaven.
2. No one ever ceases fully and permanently to struggle with God while they're still alive.

I'm not sure how those are "gaping holes." They sound more like misunderstandings on your part.

1) If you believe that Jacob literally wrestled with God, then certainly you could take his statement literal that he saw God face to face.

If you believe that what he literally wrestled was an angel, an agent of God, then his statement about seeing God face to face is figurative, just as I mentioned previously. Or if you believe the account to be a description of the inner struggle, then likewise it becomes figurative. It is like the person who struggles with a sin, and overcomes it, saying that they have faced satan (battled satan) and won, when in fact what they battled was the sinful inclination within. We use figures of speech all the time, as did they back then. Certainly, if I said that it is raining cats and dogs you would not think that literally the sky is sending down animals. Yet, here you are taking Jacob's words to be literal, that he came face to face with God, which means that you must believe that he literally wrestled with God (despite what the rest of the passage says). Otherwise, in light of the face that nothing else in the passage indicates it was literally God who he wrestled with, then his words can not be taken as literal. No more than one would take the raining of cats and dogs literal, in the absence of any.

But figuratively........ Jacob came face to face with God......

2) I disagree.... but my disagreement has nothing to do with Jacob. I believe that our spiritual journey never ceases, but this does not mean that we always struggle along the way. Our struggles may taken many forms and in varying durations. We do not all struggle with the same things, nor equally in those things. Some struggles may last a lifetime, but other may be very short lived. Some may be repeated if we do not learn the lesson God intends for us to learn the first time through. But I disagree that we never cease to permanently and fully struggle with God while we are alive. If someone's entire journey was a struggle, then I would wonder why they spent so much time fighting against God.

[IAmZamzam]

It goes against the grain of both the rest of the entire Bible and basic theistic common sense to think that the human struggle with God ever ceases during this life. But as has been suggested, we should keep this on topic....

[PouringRain]

It goes against the grain of both the rest of the entire Bible to think that the human struggle with God ever ceases during this life.

When I read your words "the human struggle" I think of all of humanity in a general sense. We were discussing the individual's stuggle. And no, it does not go against the Bible to think that it ceases during the individual's life. Since you disagree with the Bible, I'm not sure why it would concern you, or your own beliefs, what the Bible says. But no, the Bible never says that an individual will be in a constant struggle with God his entire life. Quite the opposite, the Bible speaks of finding peace in God, resting in him, yielding man's will unto God, allowing God to be in total control, etc. As I said before, if an individual was in a constant struggle with God, then I would wonder why they spend so much time fighting against him.

[IAmZamzam]

Is anybody going to try to keep it on topic??

[lakerstekkenn]

Daniel is sick for days after Gabriel visited him showing him visions.

King James Bible
And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Isaiah was awake when he saw this vision and the hot coal was placed in his mouth.

The Angle`needed tongs to handle this hot coal so obviously it hurt and Isaiah could've been burned, but instantly healed or just stung a slight bit of pain.

Isaiah chapter 6
Isaiah's Vision of the Lord in His Glory
…6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, and in his hand was a glowing coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7And with it he touched my mouth and said, “Now that this has touched your lips, your iniquity is removed and your sin is atoned for.”

Gabriel embraced him.to show he was not dreaming . If you looking the bible an angel wrestled with Jacob and broke his hip. So what is worse breaking a hip, or a hug from an angel?

- - - Updated - - -

Isaiah hot coal was put in a prophets mouth and that hot coal touching his lips removed his sins without Jesus Blood, so even Angels forgive sins using hot coals.