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noselfwilling
02-05-2011, 10:02 AM
I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross, and the bulk of these sources do mention his death on the cross (see Ancient Evidence for the Life of Jesus, The Historical Jesus, and The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas).

How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically? Normally historians focus on the primary sources closes to the timing of the events, so the Qu'ran is given no consideration because it has no evidence and we can't trust any spirit for that would not be prudent. Faith should be backed up by evidence. Test the spirits and "prove all things".

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4.1). If it does not line up with the word of God it is not to be trusted.

"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5.21).
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noselfwilling
02-05-2011, 10:10 AM
The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.
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Woodrow
02-05-2011, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.
We have no doubt many people did believe they saw Jesus(as) crucified and resurrected. We are also certain that somebody was crucified and even the Roman officials believed they had crucified Jesus(as).

But based on the words of the Qur'an and quoted to us by Allaah(swt) we know it was not Jesus(as) who was crucified.

"For They Killed Him Not": A Muslim portrayal of Jesus

For They Killed Him Not


A Muslim portrayal of Jesus


“For they killed him not”: Jesus’ ascent to heaven
Just as Jesus’ entry into this world was miraculous, his departure from this world was equally so. Instead of dying a natural death, he was raised to heaven and saved from those who plotted against him.


“(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend to Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that in which you used to differ.” (Qur’an chapter 3, verse 55).


And:


“But Allah took him up to Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (Qur’an chapter 4, verse 158).


Christians do not deny Jesus’ ascension, but believe it followed his crucifixion. They teach that he rose from the dead and then was raised to God, and they see this as his greatest miracle and proof of divinity. Jesus’ alleged crucifixion is probably the biggest issue of contention between Christians and Muslims. The crucifixion has also been the source of enmity between Christians and Jews because Jesus was allegedly put to death on the behest of the Jewish elders.


The key Christian doctrine is that by sacrificing His own son, God redeemed the world of sin. According to the old testament, crucifixion was a humiliating death reserved for those who were cursed.

In his letter to the Galatians Paul explains that everybody is cursed under the law of God, because no-one can fully keep it, but that by taking this curse upon himself Jesus has freed the world from the curse of the law Phillipians 2:6

Phillipians 2:6 "Have this mind among yourselves, which you have in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.


Christians, therefore, replace the requirement of keeping the law with the need to love Jesus who sacrificed himself for them.

This is, of course, in contradiction to Jesus’ own teaching mentioned earlier that he had not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it.


There are other contradictions in this doctrine. The idea that God punished His innocent son to free mankind from inherited sin violates the rule set out in Deuteronomy 24.16: “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers, every man shall be put to death for his own sin.” The same is expressed in the Qur’an:


“No soul shall bear another’s burden.” (Qur’an chapter 6, verse 164).


In trying to show that God knows no limits in His attempt to forgive and redeem mankind, Christian theologians have Him break His own laws and punish the innocent in order to save the guilty.

A truly loving God does not need this kind of inequity in order to be forgiving.


From the Muslim point of view, the crucifixion never took place:


“…they killed him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt of it; they have no knowledge of it except pursuit of a conjecture; they killed him not for certain.” (Qur’an chapter 4, verse 157).


Some commentators explain the phrase “but it appeared so to them” as meaning that some other person, maybe Judas who had betrayed him, was put on the cross instead in a case of mistaken identity.


According to the teachings of Islam, Jesus did not die and then rise again from the dead. He was saved the humiliating death of crucifixion by God Who made him ascend to Himself. He remains in the presence of God until the time when he will have to complete his task: to return as the Messiah or Christ near the end of time.

A Muslim Portrayal of Jesus: “For they killed him not”: Jesus’ ascent to heaven


Peace be upon you
SOURCE It is from a forum and posting of this quote does not reflect endorsement of that forum, but this quote explains better, than I could have said it myself.
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aadil77
02-05-2011, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.
Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, it was made to look like he had died on the cross:

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."
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YusufNoor
02-05-2011, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The primary sources for what the original disciples believed was that they had seen Jesus alive from the dead, ate with Him, talked with Him, even touched His side where the spear pierced his lungs and heart cavity. They even went to their deaths as martyrs unwilling to relinquish their testimony they had see Jesus alive from the dead after He died on the cross.

The problem I have with Muslims is that clearly the disciples received this impression from Jesus, so does that not leave you in a precarious positoin? As the disciples set up the earliest churches based on the atonement through the death and resurrection of Jesus to be saved by grace through faith and be born-again.

If Jesus didn't lie and the disciples didn't lie then my conscience places me in situation where there is no other option than it must be true Jesus is God, for only God can resurrect Himself after He takes upon himself the sins of the world for forgiveness of sins and gives power over sin by those in Christ having died on the cross to our old man.
there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for ANYTHING that happened during the Prophet-hood of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for the martyrdom of ANY of the Sahabah of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.

the EARLIEST written Gospel, [the one mislabeled the Gospel according to] Mark, DOES NOT contain ANY eyewitness accounts of a "risen Jesus." it's not until AFTER the time of what would have been the "martrydom of the disciples" that Gospel accounts appear claiming the falsehoods that you believe. your beliefs are based upon NEW religion that Paul preached AFTER he claimed that "his" testimony of Jesus was superior than that witnessed by Jesus' own disciples.

we see evidence of the TRUE teachings of the one you call Jesus here:

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard the Sadducees arguing. He noticed that Jesus had given the Sadducees a good answer. So he asked him, "Which is the most important of all the commandments?"

29 Jesus answered, "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind and with all your strength.'—(Deuteronomy 6:4,5) 31 And here is the second one. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'—(Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment more important than these."

32 "You have spoken well, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one. There is no other God but him. 33 To love God with all your heart and mind and strength is very important. So is loving your neighbor as you love yourself. These things are more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely. He said to him, "You are not far from God's kingdom.
as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace
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Perseveranze
02-05-2011, 06:01 PM
Peace,

Since the questions already answered... The truth is the truth.

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noselfwilling
02-05-2011, 11:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Jesus (peace be upon him) is alive, it was made to look like he had died on the cross:

4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."
Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.
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Aprender
02-05-2011, 11:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.
Interesting point here but even in the words of John the Baptist that you posted doesn't necessarily say that Jesus (pbuh) was God but only to believe in him. It seems to me like a forced interpretation with those brackets added in. Why the modification? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing with you either.
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MustafaMc
02-05-2011, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
I know Muslims claim Jesus never went to the cross, but of the 45 sources about Jesus within 150 years of his death no one claims that Jesus didn't die the cross
Actually, in "Lost Christianities" Bart Ehrman quotes Irenaeus in his book "Against Heresies" as refuting the notion that Basilides claimed Jesus transformed himself to look like Simon of Cyrene and vice versa such that the 'wrong man' was crucified. This is also supported in the "Second Treatise of the Great Seth", one of the Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, "another one was lifted up on the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns."
How can you come along six centuries later and say the complete opposite of what has been recorded historically?
Because we accept what the Quran says is true. Including the ascension of Jesus to be with God in 3:55 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ.
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aadil77
02-05-2011, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.
Like I said, your accounts confirm that obiously someone did die on the cross, but it was not Jesus, it was someone who was made to look like Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
—Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489
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noselfwilling
02-05-2011, 11:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for ANYTHING that happened during the Prophet-hood of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.
John the Baptist was pointing to Jesus, "Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him [Jesus]" (John 3.28). John the Apostle records this in his gospel account. John is the disciple whom Jesus loved most.


The Bible is full of contemporaneous accounts of the life of Jesus.



there are NO contemporaneous eyewitness accounts for the martyrdom of ANY of the Sahabah of Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's peace and blessings be upon both of them.
John the Apostle places himself at the cross when Jesus died with the women specifically mentioned by name, including Jesus' mother. All the books of the Bible were written down right when their events occurred or shortly thereafter. Nobody in antiquity is so well documented.

the EARLIEST written Gospel, [the one mislabeled the Gospel according to] Mark, DOES NOT contain ANY eyewitness accounts of a "risen Jesus." it's not until AFTER the time of what would have been the "martrydom of the disciples" that Gospel accounts appear claiming the falsehoods that you believe. your beliefs are based upon NEW religion that Paul preached AFTER he claimed that "his" testimony of Jesus was superior than that witnessed by Jesus' own disciples.
We don't know which of the 4 gospels came first, but we do know they were all written down nearly right when the events occurred. Mark writes about the death of Jesus on the cross and said Jesus was resurrected and where to go so see Him. Mark 16 gives some resurrection appearances. This was a retrieved chapter that apparently was lost. Since all the disciples died around 65 AD, all the books of the NT were written before then except for Revelation, John the Apostle wrote around 95 AD. Acts written by Luke recounts many of the works and testimony of Paul which do not differ with the experiences of the Apostles. Whether you have the gospels only or Paul's writings only or Peter's writings only or John's writing only, the eyewitness testimony and message is the same in setting up the first churches. Paul's role was to travel to the Gentiles to set up the churches outside of Judea to spread the gospel of salvation to the world.


we see evidence of the TRUE teachings of the one you call Jesus here:


28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard the Sadducees arguing. He noticed that Jesus had given the Sadducees a good answer. So he asked him, "Which is the most important of all the commandments?"

29 Jesus answered, "Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind and with all your strength.'—(Deuteronomy 6:4,5) 31 And here is the second one. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'—(Leviticus 19:18) There is no commandment more important than these."

32 "You have spoken well, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one. There is no other God but him. 33 To love God with all your heart and mind and strength is very important. So is loving your neighbor as you love yourself. These things are more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 Jesus saw that the man had answered wisely. He said to him, "You are not far from God's kingdom.

Jesus was speaking of God the Father, not God the Son, as He showed perfect obedience unto the Father as only God the Son could do. Jesus is God the Son because He forgave sins, which only God can do, and when the scribes wanted to kill Jesus for being the Forgiver of sins, they accused him of claiming to be God, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2.7). Jesus responded, "And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question thus in your hearts?" (v.8). Now "ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy)" (v.10) when he healed him.

as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.
Nonetheless wrong.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace
It is a myth that Jesus didn't die on the cross. An old wives tale without evidence or support overturn the death that Jesus endured on the cross for the sins of the world.



as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace[/QUOTE]
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noselfwilling
02-05-2011, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aprender
Interesting point here but even in the words of John the Baptist that you posted doesn't necessarily say that Jesus (pbuh) was God but only to believe in him. It seems to me like a forced interpretation with those brackets added in. Why the modification? I'm not disagreeing with you but I'm not agreeing with you either.
I think John is placing Jesus as God above all other men that ever lived or ever will live. To be that unique one must be God. Any other interpretation is forced. Why modify how John felt? If Jesus were just a man, John the Baptist would be sinning by exalting Jesus to such a high level that only God's shoes could fill.
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aadil77
02-06-2011, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
I think John is placing Jesus as God above all other men that ever lived or ever will live. To be that unique one must be God. Any other interpretation is forced. Why modify how John felt? If Jesus were just a man, John the Baptist would be sinning by exalting Jesus to such a high level that only God's shoes could fill.
Prophets are often exhalted high above men, because they have a high status as messengers of God, but this does not make them God Himself, or anything like even close to being God.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Actually, in "Lost Christianities" Bart Ehrman quotes Irenaeus in his book "Against Heresies" as refuting the notion that Basilides claimed Jesus transformed himself to look like Simon of Cyrene and vice versa such that the 'wrong man' was crucified. This is also supported in the "Second Treatise of the Great Seth", one of the Gnostic manuscripts found at Nag Hammadi, "another one was lifted up on the cross on his shoulder, who was Simon. Another was the one on whom they put the crown of thorns."Because we accept what the Quran says is true. Including the ascension of Jesus to be with God in 3:55 (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering you and causing you to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing you of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow you above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me you will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein you used to differ.
Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testaement and early church fathers.

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Thanks for your reply. We have many sources both in the OT, NT, non-Christian and extra-Biblical sources that Jesus died on the cross leaving no doubt. But if one were to say Jesus didn't die on the cross six centuries later there would be lots of doubt, because there is no evidence for this change in the historical record.

Just as prophets were killed in the past so was Jesus, the King of Jews, put to the death on the cross, but His death was different, because he bore our sins on the cross (Isaiah 53). The Bible also says no man is in heaven yet, not even David (Acts 2.34), a man after God's own heart, and then John the Baptist says something unique about Jesus,

"He that cometh from above [speaking of Jesus] is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3.31,36).

So if a person doesn't receive Jesus from above as God they will perish and not receive everlasting life. No mere man only could do that.
For 3 centuries the early Christians also followed other books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas. But since these differed from the teachings of Paul and did not acknowledge Jesus(as) died on the cross they were cast out as being gnostic by the council of Nicea. You ever think of the possibility that the true gospels were cast out and the false ones kept? Keep in mind the Bible you have today came as a result of the choosing of books by the Popes between the year s 300 - 800. You are following the teachings of Catholicism, not the word of God(swt).
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross.
Correction. There is no evidence Jesus DIDN'T die on the cross since the primary sources only testify to Jesus dying on the cross.

Men of God are often killed as martyrs.

If the disciples were deceived God would be a liar, but God is no liar. And there is no purpose for God deceiving the disciples. Satan would though.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Like I said, your accounts confirm that obiously someone did die on the cross, but it was not Jesus, it was someone who was made to look like Jesus:

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."
—Al-Nasa'i, Al-Kubra, 6:489
The record of the New Testament is that Jesus died on the cross and to confirm this even further the disciples reported they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. Since Jesus wouldn't lie to them, nor did they lie, then it is true, they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.
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MustafaMc
02-06-2011, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testaement and early church fathers.
The point is that Basilides had written that Jesus did not die. Are not the Nag Hammadi manuscripts older than any surviving canonical gospel text?
Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.
No, I have no doubt that he did not die, but the question remains for you, "Where does your salvation stand if he did not die on the cross?"
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aadil77
02-06-2011, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Correction. There is no evidence Jesus DIDN'T die on the cross since the primary sources only testify to Jesus dying on the cross.

Men of God are often killed as martyrs.

If the disciples were deceived God would be a liar, but God is no liar. And there is no purpose for God deceiving the disciples. Satan would though.
Exactly, They were not decieved, they knew about it, read the my post above.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Prophets are often exhalted high above men, because they have a high status as messengers of God, but this does not make them God Himself, or anything like even close to being God.
Prophets are never exalted above all men that ever lived or eve will live as Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, created all things, and no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than Jesus.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
For 3 centuries the early Christians also followed other books such as the Gospels of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas. But since these differed from the teachings of Paul and did not acknowledge Jesus(as) died on the cross they were cast out as being gnostic by the council of Nicea. You ever think of the possibility that the true gospels were cast out and the false ones kept? Keep in mind the Bible you have today came as a result of the choosing of books by the Popes between the year s 300 - 800. You are following the teachings of Catholicism, not the word of God(swt).
Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon and the 66 books of the Bible determined before the end of the 1st century. The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence because you don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The point is that Basilides had written that Jesus did not die. Are not the Nag Hammadi manuscripts older than any surviving canonical gospel text?No, I have no doubt that he did not die, but the question remains for you, "Where does your salvation stand if he did not die on the cross?"
No they are not older. They are too late to be of consideration. They come from the 3rd and 4th centuries.
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aadil77
02-06-2011, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Prophets are never exalted above all men that ever lived or eve will live as Jesus was, is, and always will be. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, created all things, and no man can come to the Father but by Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved than Jesus.
Jesus can't save anyone, its every man for himself. You will be bitterly dissapointed on the Day of Judgement when Jesus will testify to that.

If you want to be saved, I suggest you start by repenting for worshipping a mangod rather than the Al-Mighty Creator - God Himself.

Even the disciples surrendered to God not Jesus:

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Qur'an 3:52
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Exactly, They were not decieved, they knew about it, read the my post above.
The Qu'ran says the disciples were deceived in claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. God wouldn't deceive the disciples but Satan would. But the disciples weren't deceived. They reported the truth they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no evidence to the contrary. See my response above.
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aadil77
02-06-2011, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The Qu'ran says the disciples were deceived in claiming they had seen Jesus alive from the dead. God wouldn't deceive the disciples but Satan would. But the disciples weren't deceived. They reported the truth they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings. There is no evidence to the contrary. See my response above.
No its doesn't - prove it, it says the Jews thought they killed him but they didn't:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
Jesus can't save anyone, its every man for himself. You will be bitterly dissapointed on the Day of Judgement when Jesus will testify to that.

If you want to be saved, I suggest you start by repenting for worshipping a mangod rather than the Al-Mighty Creator - God Himself.

Even the disciples surrendered to God not Jesus:

But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Qur'an 3:52
Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross. So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
No its doesn't - prove it, it says the Jews thought they killed him but they didn't:

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And ...
The disciples continue to teach the life, death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and deity of Jesus so the disciples never stopped believing they had Seen Jesus alive form the dead in various group settings even to their martyrdom for this testimony.

Muhammad six centuries later says they were deceived by God, but God would not deceive them. So you are speaking of Satan. But the disciples were not deceived, since group hallucinations are impossible.
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جوري
02-06-2011, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity.
How we respond to the message of Jesus indeed determines how we spend eternity.
Jesus said, to worship God and not idols--which is in fact what Christians do bow before idols and have multiple gods.. .. Jesus was also sent to the lost sheep of Israel (only)

<< Matthew 15:24 >>

New International Version (©1984)
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
English Standard Version (©2001)
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
Anything else is a contradiction.. any contradiction renders the word of God untrustworthy.. any lack of trust means the religion is false and not from God..
Now, I am not sure how a grown man or even a child can believe that God was a suckling pooping little boy from west Asia who self-immolated after spending a night in prayer to himself at Gethsemane .. perhaps there is something satisfying in that to the christian mind?.. I don't know.. it doesn't hold much water for anyone else..
and believe me I'd not waste my monumental efforts here.. how about you aim it at atheists? see how that fares with them?
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross. So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.
Until you accept the truth that Jesus(as) did not die, your salvation is very much at risk. Yes, you will enjoy a pleasant stay on earth as all good intentions are rewarded. May you learn the truth before it is too late and may your love for Jesus(as) guide you for learning what a great Prophet he is. But remember until you stop falsely worshiping Jesus(as) as a god, he will bear witness against you for worshiping another besides God(swt) Learn to love Jesus(as) the Prophet and give up your idolatry of a myth created by his enemies..
Reply

aadil77
02-06-2011, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Jesus can save anyone who is willing to receive what He did for us on the cross. Everyone has a choice how they respond to Jesus. How you respond to Jesus determines where you spend eternity. Think in terms how a loving God would not leave us in the dark and blind without evidence, for all the evidence we have are in the primary sources, none of which contradict Jesus' death on the cross.
You have no evidence, just a book corrupted by greedy men, full of contradictions and mistakes

So what have you got but the word of a man in a cave all by himself, alone, jealous, despising Christians and the Jews, so he makes up some lies without support or basis. Do you really want to live your life at that attitude and deceit?
Jealous? LOL prophet Muhammad and prophet Jesus are brothers in faith, they're both going to heaven, they have nothing to be jealous of.

Do you really want to live your life worshipping a mangod? He couldn't even save himself from the cross so how will he save you?

I am already saved which can never be lost: those who are born-again "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You can't work for your salvation. I died on the cross with Christ. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3.16). No mere man alone could do this. Only Jesus because Jesus is God.
Wow, so humble of you. So now that you are saved you can do whatever you want like just the rest of all christians? You can fornicate, steal, rape, murder because you are already saved, yes? It makes so much sense, so much justice in christianity
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 01:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
am not sure how a grown man or even a child can believe that God was a suckling pooping little boy from west Asia who self-immolated after spending a night in prayer to himself at Gethsemane .. perhaps there is something satisfying in that to the christian mind?.. I don't know.. it doesn't hold much water for anyone else..
and believe me I'd not waste my monumental efforts here.. how about you aim it at atheists? see how that fares with them?
For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind to atone for sins on the cross, He would need to be just like one of us.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 01:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
For Jesus to be the perfect sacrifice for mankind to atone for sins on the cross, He would need to be just like one of us.

Those are empty words .. like when the Hindus contend when Ganesh's head was cut off the only other head his body could be replaced with was that of an elephant. fairy tales aren't logical and if not logical then there is no reason to bet ones eternity on it.. go convince the Jews your love so much of that self-immolating mangod see if you don't elicit a hearty guffaw.. at least Muslims don't call a messenger of God the son of a harlot!


p.s just out of amusement.. why are sacrifices so important? is god hungry, is he some sort of harvest god that needs offerings from the blood of virgins?

all the best
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Until you accept the truth that Jesus(as) did not die, your salvation is very much at risk. Yes, you will enjoy a pleasant stay on earth as all good intentions are rewarded. May you learn the truth before it is too late and may your love for Jesus(as) guide you for learning what a great Prophet he is. But remember until you stop falsely worshiping Jesus(as) as a god, he will bear witness against you for worshiping another besides God(swt) Learn to love Jesus(as) the Prophet and give up your idolatry of a myth created by his enemies..
Since all the evidence we have in Scripture is that Jesus did die on the cross, then we know it is true. Nothing exists to contrary. No naturalistic explanation can explain it away. Our sins were put upon Jesus, for only God can take the sins of the world upon Himself.

May God give you a conscience to realize you are a sinner in need of salvation, that sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, and the only way to atone for sins is if God in our stead pays that price on the cross, shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins. Salvation is not by works of pillars of Isalm, but it is a free gift of God whosoeover is willing to receive it as Abel did, giving an offering of the lamb which typifies Jesus; whereas Abel, jealous like Muhammad, killed Abel because God did not want an offering of his works like the pillars of Islam. God is infinitely greater than us so no works from us could satisfy His heart to receive initial salvation. Let go of your idols of Islam, but receive the One True God who loved you so much He entered His creation to save you from yourself.

Unless you stop calling the disciples liars, that they were deceived by God, how could you ever come to Christ to be saved by grace through faith and escape Hell?
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon and the 66 books of the Bible determined before the end of the 1st century. The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence because you don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
Of course the Christians of today do not follow the gospels of Thomas, Peter or Barnabas. Christianity had already ceased to follow what Jesus(as) taught long before they were written. Christianity vanished from this earth the moment the disciples scattered. Possibly the closest remnant of Christianity are the Coptic of Egypt. They seem to follow the Gospel of Mark in what may actually be the original Aramaic. But sadly even they finally succumbed to pressure from Greece and Rome by adding the Epistles and books of Paul to their scriptures.

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
You have no evidence, just a book corrupted by greedy men, full of contradictions and mistakes Jealous? LOL prophet Muhammad and prophet Jesus are brothers in faith, they're both going to heaven, they have nothing to be jealous of. Do you really want to live your life worshipping a mangod? He couldn't even save himself from the cross so how will he save you? Wow, so humble of you. So now that you are saved you can do whatever you want like just the rest of all christians? You can fornicate, steal, rape, murder because you are already saved, yes? It makes so much sense, so much justice in christianity
Since you can't show any greed in the disciples as they died for their testimony, contradictions or mistakes, what have you got?Why take after Satan accusing the saints day and night (Rev. 12.10)? Why would Jesus being jealous other than for your love? God is a jealous God. Muhammad is jealous in a different way because like Cain, God rejecting his offering of works. The Bible says, no man shall be saved by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is a free gift of God to be freely accepted or rejected. I worship the Father through the Son by the Spirit since all 3 Persons of the Godhead are co-equal and co-inherent. No man on earth has ever been able to keep the perfect will of the Father except Jesus because Jesus is God the Son.

Do you really want to be so selfish as to remain separated from God by refusing what Jesus did for you on the cross? He died for you and you reject not only His atonement, but you make up six centuries later He didn't even go to the cross without any evidence to support your claim. God would never ask you to believe in something without evidence, but Satan would.

Jesus said He could have saved Himself from the cross, but He was unwilling to, since He knew His work would save man from his sins through His precious blood. Now that I am saved and have eternal life which can never be lost, if I decide to be a carnal Christian there are consequences. I would not only be raptured at the first rapture "befor the throne" (Rev. 7.9), but also I would not return with Christ to reign over the nations during the 1000 years (Jude 14,15; Rev. 20.4). 1000 years is a long time to lose this reward before entering the New City in the New Earth. If someone calls themselves a Christian yet murders, rapes and pillages, then clearly they were not born-again.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 01:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Those are empty words .. like when the Hindus contend when Ganesh's head was cut off the only other head his body could be replaced with was that of an elephant. fairy tales aren't logical and if not logical then there is no reason to bet ones eternity on it.. go convince the Jews your love so much of that self-immolating mangod see if you don't elicit a hearty guffaw.. at least Muslims don't call a messenger of God the son of a harlot!

p.s just out of amusement.. why are sacrifices so important? is god hungry, is he some sort of harvest god that needs offerings from the blood of virgins?
I agree there is no evidence for that claim by Hindus. It's just a fairy tale like the fairy tale Jesus did not die on the cross so you can exalt in self-works to think you can save yourself. That's illogical to believe that six centuries later without any evidence.

You claim to accept the Bible yet you don't understand the purpose of the sacrifices in ancient Israel under the old covenant that foretold of the Messiah who would become the once-for-all sacrifice so sacricies would end. It was a temporary measure back then under the law to atone for sins. No man could keep the law, thus revealing to us we need a Savior.

Your god is not loving. He is too selfish or unable to enter creation to atone for sins. Your god can't do what God of the Bible did.

Realize you are a sinner, sin leads to death and the second deaht which is Hell, so unless God takes upon Himself in a very visible way, then you will be full of doubt.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
I agree there is no evidence for that claim by Hindus. It's just a fairy tale like the fairy tale Jesus did not die on the cross so you can exalt in self-works to think you can save yourself. That's illogical to believe that six centuries later without any evidence.
You can't prove the dying mangod nonsense anymore than ganesh's head nonsense.. further did you not read bro. Yusuf's post? I recommend you some Bart eherman lectures-- you don't even know on what day he was allegedly crucified let alone that it happened!

You claim to accept the Bible yet you don't understand the purpose of the sacrifices in ancient Israel under the old covenant that foretold of the Messiah who would become the once-for-all sacrifice so sacricies would end. It was a temporary measure back then under the law to atone for sins. No man could keep the law, thus revealing to us we need a Savior.
I don't accept the bible who said I do? show me where I have made such a claim.
The above doesn't explain why god needs sacrifices.. I need a logical reason for it not some biblical nonsense. Your bible also has god fighting with angels or prophets or whomever and losing.. although it is certainly not as bad as self-immolating after a night of self-prayer.. If god couldn't save himself, why would he save you? silly rabbit tricks are for david copperfield!
Your god is not loving. He is too selfish or unable to enter creation to atone for sins. Your god can't do what God of the Bible did.
How is my god not loving? further how can your loving god create hell if he were as loving as you allege?
Realize you are a sinner, sin leads to death and the second deaht which is Hell, so unless God takes upon Himself in a very visible way, then you will be full of doubt.
You're too funny.. why don't you strike a tent and sell some snake oil I think it might buy you some credibility!

all the best
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling

Unless you stop calling the disciples liars, that they were deceived by God, how could you ever come to Christ to be saved by grace through faith and escape Hell?
It took me 65 years to escape from the lies of Christianity and by the Blessings of Allaah(swt) discover Islam.

The day you wake up and discover you are living a man made religion that lowered Allaah(swt) to the level of humanity, you will see the misguidance brought about by Christianity. Not all christians need to be lost many Christians have awoken and found the truth of Islam even after 65 years of trying to bring Muslims to Christ(as). At least you are approaching the right path even though you have yet to discover Allaah(swt) is inviting you to give up your sinful teachings and return home to Islam and be given the gift of Allaah(swt)'s infinite mercy and forgiveness. You can not earn his forgiveness, no sacrifice can ever gain it for you. but Allaah(swt) gives it freely and with out conditions to those who repent of the evil blasphemy of worshiping a false god in His name.
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جوري
02-06-2011, 01:53 AM
I am not sure why we all fall into the trap of replying back to these fundies. They all come bearing the same agenda and none of them can articulate their message to save their dear life-- their very article of salvation is nothing but a convoluted conundrum. .. honestly it is such a waste of webspace which we should spend on more serious issues.. like the uprising in the middle east .. it is alot more relevant than these medieval bible-thumpers!
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MustafaMc
02-06-2011, 01:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
No they are not older. They are too late to be of consideration. They come from the 3rd and 4th centuries.
...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 01:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Of course the Christians of today do not follow the gospels of Thomas, Peter or Barnabas. Christianity had already ceased to follow what Jesus(as) taught long before they were written. Christianity vanished from this earth the moment the disciples scattered. Possibly the closest remnant of Christianity are the Coptic of Egypt. They seem to follow the Gospel of Mark in what may actually be the original Aramaic. But sadly even they finally succumbed to pressure from Greece and Rome by adding the Epistles and books of Paul to their scriptures.

At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.
Since those gnostic texts disagreed with the Biblical texts then Christians didn't follow those gnostic texts back then. Christians believe exactly what the original disciples taught in the first century as it is recorded in the Bible.

That the Bible reported the disciples scattered speaks of the authenticity of the Scriptures, but when they saw Jesus alive from the dead they changed from doubters to bold proclaimers. Jesus predicted to the disciples would deny Him temporarily out of lack of faithfulness. This is part of Christianity so Christianity never changed.

The Coptics do not agree with the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible including Mark agree with their teachings. One of their heresies is that Jesus was not fully man. There are several others.

Paul, Peter, James and John so they were in complete agreement. Notice all of Paul's writings are included too. Peter, James and John agreed with Paul and spoke highly of him.

I am here talking about this because I don't want you to go to Hell, so I encourage you to realize you have no evidence for claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. Can you be so humble as to accept that if you don't have evidence for something you shouldn't believe in it blindly? God would never ask you to.
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MustafaMc
02-06-2011, 02:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
At least you have been given the chance to explore Islam and now have some idea of what it is, the decision to escape from hellfire is now your own personal choice. You have been shown the door to the true path, that is all we can do for you.
Ironic isn't it that he is now fully responsible for his rejection of the Truth that there is only One God without father, mother, son, daughter or equal.
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جوري
02-06-2011, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.

Now it gets interesting.. although I'd hate for your skills to be wasted on such small change..

:w:
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
You can't prove the dying mangod nonsense anymore than ganesh's head nonsense.. further did you not read bro. Yusuf's post? I recommend you some Bart eherman lectures-- you don't even know on what day he was allegedly crucified let alone that it happened!

I don't accept the bible who said I do? show me where I have made such a claim. The above doesn't explain why god needs sacrifices.. I need a logical reason for it not some biblical nonsense. Your bible also has god fighting with angels or prophets or whomever and losing.. although it is certainly not as bad as self-immolating after a night of self-prayer.. If god couldn't save himself, why would he save you? silly rabbit tricks are for david copperfield! How is my god not loving? further how can your loving god create hell if he were as loving as you allege? You're too funny.. why don't you strike a tent and sell some snake oil I think it might buy you some credibility!
You don't even have to prove Jesus is God to prove Islam is wrong. All you need to do is realize six centuries later a guy in a cave all by himself who refused to give his life to Christ decided to claim Jesus didn't die on the cross. Jesus died on the cross April 1, 33 AD (Gregorian) on Friday. Danie's prophecy predicted exactly to the day when the 4 day inspection of the Lamb would take place.

From the declaration to rebuild the Temple on Nisan 1, 444 BC to when Jesus would enter Jerusalem is exactly 69 sets of seven years at 360 days per year. That comes to 173,880 days which takes us to exactly March 28, 33 AD. The 4 day inspection is March 28, 29, 30, 31. It's an amazing prophecy! Satan has since given a name to this day called April Fool's Day. Satan loves to mock Jesus even though Satan has received a deadly wound by the cross, because those who have died with Christ their old man has died (we posess new life) so Satan doesn't have any flesh to work through. And Satan's accusations are powerless, because God says our sins are forgiven in Christ.

Yes, God contends against the fallen angels. He even lets Satan out of the pit after the 1000 years to show three things: 1) man still yet had some hidden sin, 2) Satan will never repent, 3) God's good pleasure.

God is loving because He enters His creation, something your god doesn't do and can't. Allah is just an idol anyway since the Bible says there are no gods before God, beside God or after God. God creates Hell for you because free will is not truly free if you don't have the choice to be eternally separated from Him. Islam, I agree, is snake oil.

Just as the OT taught us a perfect sacrifice is essential for atonement, Jesus must be the perfect sacrifice once-for-all. There can be no better sacrifice than God enter His creation through the womb of Mary, growing up as a child, feeling our heartaches and struggling with us, only to then be killed by those who rejected God's authority as people today are killed mercilessly. I hear there are even other cults besides Islam that claim Jesus didn't die on the cross and like all cults they don't need evidence for their claim either.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
You don't even have to prove Jesus is God
You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you.. but keep yourself busy a while with this (click on the links):

Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.
This page is to educate the Muslims about the Bible of the Christians, concerning mainly with its compilation and textual reliability. It is often seen that Christian missionaries dupe less-knowledgeable Muslims about the Bible by saying that the Qur'an confirms the Bible and hence Muslims should believe in the Bible. Muslims should remember that the Qur'an attests Torah, Zabur and Injil as revelations from God given to the Prophet. It does not attest whatever writers of the Old Testament or St. Paul in the New Testament wrote or said.
But what is the textual reliability of the so-called Torah, Zabur and Injil present in the modern Bibles? The aim of this page is to venture into this issue. If one can't establish the 'revealed' books' textual reliability, is there any point calling it as the Word of God?
Lastly, we have made sure that we use the references of Judeo-Christian scholars of repute not the apologetical literature for very obvious reasons.
The Canon Of The Bible

A detailed discussion about the various canons of the Bible drawn at various times by different Churches can be seen here.
The New Testament ManuscriptsWas The Bible Same As We have In Our Hands Today?The Bible and Its 'Inspiration'Textual Reliability Of The Bible - Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

Criteria Used In Choosing Among Conflicting Readings In New Testament Witnesses

  1. Introduction
  2. The Criteria
  3. Outline Of Criteria
    1. External Evidence
    2. Internal Evidence

  4. Some Examples

Textual Reliability / Accuracy Of The New Testament

Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), The Patristic Citations Of The Ante-Nicene Church Fathers And The Search For Eleven Missing Verses Of The New Testament
Based on a narrative whose source is alleged to have been the renowned Scottish Judge Sir David Dalrymple (Lord Hailes), it is frequently asserted that the entire New Testament can be reconstructed from the citations of the Church Fathers of the first three centuries, with the exception of only eleven verses. Going back to the original documents, something which none of the authors have attempted to study, it is shown that the data in them clearly disproves this claim – repeated in numerous missionary and apologetical publications for a period of more than 165 years.


Modern Approaches To New Testament Textual Criticism

  1. Radical Eclecticism (G. D. Kilpatrick, J. K. Elliott)
  2. Reasoned Eclecticism (B. M. Metzger, K. Aland)
  3. Reasoned Conservatism (H. A. Sturz)
  4. Radical Conservatism (Z. Hodges, A. Farstad)

Critical Text Of The New Testament: Methodology and Implications

  1. Introduction
  2. Formation Of A Critical Text: Methodology and Implications
  3. Conclusion
  4. Appendix: Other Articles Of Interest

The Multivalence Of The Term "Original Text" In New Testament Textual Criticism, E. Jay Epp, Harvard Theological Review, 1999, Volume 92, No. 3. pp. 245-281.

  1. Introduction
  2. The Use of the Term "Original Text" Past and Present and Its Multivalence
  3. The Relation of an Elusive, Multivalent "Original Text" to the Concept of "Canon"
  4. Conclusion

Who Is Afraid Of Textual Criticism?

  1. Variant Readings In The Qur'an and In The Bible
    1. The Qur'an, Its Variant Readings and Islamic Scholarship
    2. The New Testament, Its Problems and The Critical Texts

  2. Textual Criticism and The Reaction Of The Church
    1. J Mill
    2. R Bentley
    3. J J Wettstein
    4. B F Westcott and J A Hort

Reply

MustafaMc
02-06-2011, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I am not sure why we all fall into the trap of replying back to these fundies. They all come bearing the same agenda and none of them can articulate their message to save their dear life-- their very article of salvation is nothing but a convoluted conundrum. ..
I guess as long as they are permitted to post here on LI, some feel a duty to counter their dogma with Truth.

Christians are standing on sinking sand and yet they don't realize it. They pose questions such as the OP knowing full well that their salvation for all eternity stands upon a tenuous supposition that is poorly supported, if at all, by the gospels. Our salvation does not rely upon our 'works' as they claim, but rather on the mercy of Allah (swt). In direct contrast to the Christians, we worship Allah (swt) in the manner that He prescribed through His prophet, Muhammad (saaws). We stand upon the promises made in the Quran of forgiveness for those who believe and do good deeds.
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 02:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Since those gnostic texts disagreed with the Biblical texts then Christians didn't follow those gnostic texts back then. Christians believe exactly what the original disciples taught in the first century as it is recorded in the Bible.

That the Bible reported the disciples scattered speaks of the authenticity of the Scriptures, but when they saw Jesus alive from the dead they changed from doubters to bold proclaimers. Jesus predicted to the disciples would deny Him temporarily out of lack of faithfulness. This is part of Christianity so Christianity never changed.

The Coptics do not agree with the Scriptures. Nothing in the Bible including Mark agree with their teachings. One of their heresies is that Jesus was not fully man. There are several others.

Paul, Peter, James and John so they were in complete agreement. Notice all of Paul's writings are included too. Peter, James and John agreed with Paul and spoke highly of him.

I am here talking about this because I don't want you to go to Hell, so I encourage you to realize you have no evidence for claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross. Can you be so humble as to accept that if you don't have evidence for something you shouldn't believe in it blindly? God would never ask you to.
So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It took me 65 years to escape from the lies of Christianity and by the Blessings of Allaah(swt) discover Islam.

The day you wake up and discover you are living a man made religion that lowered Allaah(swt) to the level of humanity, you will see the misguidance brought about by Christianity. Not all christians need to be lost many Christians have awoken and found the truth of Islam even after 65 years of trying to bring Muslims to Christ(as). At least you are approaching the right path even though you have yet to discover Allaah(swt) is inviting you to give up your sinful teachings and return home to Islam and be given the gift of Allaah(swt)'s infinite mercy and forgiveness. You can not earn his forgiveness, no sacrifice can ever gain it for you. but Allaah(swt) gives it freely and with out conditions to those who repent of the evil blasphemy of worshiping a false god in His name.
You fell into the age old trap of salvation by works because with salvation by works is the possibility of losing salvation if you don't maintain your self-strength to be faithful. No man can save himself by works, lest any man should boast. All religions teach this except Christianity, because no man can save himself, for God is infinite greater than us and only He can satistfy the requirement for salvation through His only begotten Son whosoever believe on Him. Realize you were actually in reality never born-again because the Bible teaches those who were saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You have perished.

The day you realize you are living in a man made religion is the day you come closer to Christ to possibly be saved. Many Muslims come to Christ every day. They consider Islam evil, for example, what happened in Egypt recently killing 30 Christians and wounding 70 more as they were coming out of the Church. When Muhammad didn't have the upper hand in a country he was fairly peaceful, but as soon as he gained control, he was a murderous tyrant. Would Jesus do that?

You can keep calling the disciples liars when they said they had seen Jesus alive from thead dead, but realize people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. They truly believed it. but group hallucinations are impossible. Almost all scholars today on the resurrection claim agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There is no grand conspiracy by the historian Tacitus or Josephus that Jesus died on the cross. He really died on the cross, put to death by Pontius Pilate.

You're a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God in the likeness of flesh atones for those sins, no man could be saved. Just like there is no evidence for the Greek gods there is no evidence for Allah. You must believe him blindly, whereas Christians have a God who proved Himself and relating to us personally. Praise the Lord!


God is relational, not an absentee landlord like in Islam. He becomes one of us so we could be like Him and have eternal life. Amen.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
...and how old is the oldest surviving text of the Bible? The Codex Sinaiticus dates from 350, in other words the 4th century.
We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
You fell into the age old trap of salvation by works because with salvation by works is the possibility of losing salvation if you don't maintain your self-strength to be faithful. No man can save himself by works, lest any man should boast. All religions teach this except Christianity, because no man can save himself, for God is infinite greater than us and only He can satistfy the requirement for salvation through His only begotten Son whosoever believe on Him. Realize you were actually in reality never born-again because the Bible teaches those who were saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). You have perished.

The day you realize you are living in a man made religion is the day you come closer to Christ to possibly be saved. Many Muslims come to Christ every day. They consider Islam evil, for example, what happened in Egypt recently killing 30 Christians and wounding 70 more as they were coming out of the Church. When Muhammad didn't have the upper hand in a country he was fairly peaceful, but as soon as he gained control, he was a murderous tyrant. Would Jesus do that?

You can keep calling the disciples liars when they said they had seen Jesus alive from thead dead, but realize people don't willingly die for what they know is a lie. They truly believed it. but group hallucinations are impossible. Almost all scholars today on the resurrection claim agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead.

There is no grand conspiracy by the historian Tacitus or Josephus that Jesus died on the cross. He really died on the cross, put to death by Pontius Pilate.

You're a sinner, sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell, so unless God in the likeness of flesh atones for those sins, no man could be saved. Just like there is no evidence for the Greek gods there is no evidence for Allah. You must believe him blindly, whereas Christians have a God who proved Himself and relating to us personally. Praise the Lord!


God is relational, not an absentee landlord like in Islam. He becomes one of us so we could be like Him and have eternal life. Amen.
The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
So out of 12 Apostles and numerous disciples only 4 eye witness accounts were worthy of being kept, those of John, Mark, Matthew and Luke. The 4 that seem to be reiterations of the same thing the same of which happened to have been written in Greek by Aramaic speaking Jews. the same of which not even the best Christian theologians can agree upon who the actual authors were. The same books that coincidentally have a very strong resemblance to the Greek and Roman mythology of the time.

Give up your life of blasphemy and the spreading of falsehoods. Read even one short Surah of the Glorious Qur'an:

1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful;

4. Master of the Day of Judgment.

5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.

6. Show us the straight way,

7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
I am farily certain not all the disciples could read and write, and the Bible is a fairly big book already. 4 gospel accounts is more than enough. One emphasizes Jesus as king, another as servant, another as man and another as God. Most scholars can't think of anyone other than Matthew, Luke, Mark and John to write these texts. In fact, many clues regarding their employment indcating their writing style. For example Matthew writes regally. He was a tax collector, an accountant. Mark was simple and had a bout with Paul over Mark's fickleness. Luke was a very careful writer. He was a doctor. He also wrote Acts. And Jesus said John was the disciple whom He loved most. John emphasized Jesus' deity and love. There is no Greek mythology of someone walking among us, atoning for sins, who called Himself God and resurrected and gave the Holy Spirit to indwell believers. Truly unique.

At best Allah is just an idol. At worst, he is Satan.

Jesus said, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture" (John 10.9).

You can't enter into another man unless that person is also fully God. Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. Praise the Lord!
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 02:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
We have at least 14 papyri from the 2nd century and read we have at least 27 verses in 12 books of the New Testament from the Dead Sea Scrolls carbon dated before 65 AD.
You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The day I gave up Christianity and my years of Missionary work did I finally find the true path to salvation. I have to pay a horrible price with my feelings of guilt over those I led to hellfire by converting them to Christianity. I once believed as you now do. I hope you escape before you suffer the guilt and pains of leading the innocent into the trap of Christianity.
Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.

You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!

God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You do know the dead sea scrolls were written by Essenes, not Christians and do support Islam more than they support Christianity. You have no books from the early sources you only have copies of books which the Vatican Library will allow you access to.
The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integretity and compare.
Reply

Tyrion
02-06-2011, 03:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The Essenes were a Jewish cult. The Jews agree more with Islam than Christianity since you both reject Christ. The point is the Scriptures that were circulating shows at least 12 books of the New Testament were circulating before 65 AD.

All the New Testament is from the original sources. The Qu'ran was changed so many times it would make your head spin, even on major doctrinal points, but none of the major doctrinal points in the Bible have been changed. There is nothing in antiquity with surviving documents so closely to their events as is the case for the Bible.

More copies the better to preserve integretity and compare.

Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck. :p
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
You sure you do.. that is what you're selling.. and you're not doing a good pitch at the sale.. to be honest I'd not purchase from street vendors anyway.. if I weren't pressed for time and other interests I'd have more fun with you..
No we don't have to prove Jesus was resurrected to prove Islam is false. All we need to do to prove Islam is false is that Jesus died on the cross because Islam says he didn't. I can sell you on Christ later, but right it is enough to prove Islam is false because all the evidence we have is for Jesus dying on the cross, and no evedience to the contrary, so don't believe some guy in a cave all by himself six centuries later. God would never ask you to believe blindly like that out of his hostility because he rejected Jesus for his salvation.

Is the Bible that we have in our hands today unchanged? Or has it undergone extensive revisions and alterations? Truth is the first victim in the Christian apologetical literature. This is because if they tell the truth about the Church history and its role in formulating the Bible (or Bibles) as well as the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, belief in the Bible as the "Word" of God would take the beating and the Churches would go absolutely empty. Hence it is not be surprising to find an average Christian's knowledge about his own scriptures is pretty close to zero.
Since all the books of the New Testament were completed before 65 AD except for John in 95 AD, who cares about all these other books or even what the Church compiled. It makes no difference because the early texts were already establed as primary sources.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Lol, dude... Learn a bit about the religion before you come here and try to convert people. You're just making yourself look like a fool...

Oh, and you really shouldn't expect us to sit back and let you spew this nonsense... Most Muslims are fairly familiar with Christianity and it's texts, as well as being familiar with their own history and texts, so they can very easily take apart whatever you have to say... You, however, don't seem to have even a basic knowledge of Islam, so... Good luck.
I am a fool for Christ. I am a fool for evidence. Since there is no evidence in the first two centuries that Jesus didn't die on the cross but lots of evidence for his cruicifixion, realize you are a living lie.

It is sad to hear those who claim they are familiar with the text, and thus the evidence, yet still remain unsaved, bound for hell for calling the disciples deceived and Jesus a liar when he said countless times in various ways He was God and would prove it by His resurrection.

The disciples said they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, for which you can find a no naturalistic explanation. This is God's proof of Himself.

There is really only one thing you need to know about Islam to know it is wrong. If it says Jesus didn't die on the cross you know Muhammad was a liar or demonically possessed.
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Realize you were never actually born-again because the Bible teaches those who are saved "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). We whom are saved entered into a relationship with God promises to keep us. That gives us confidence and assuredness. You don't have this in your faith because it is a salvation by works to keep yourself allegedly saved.
Islam does not teach that we can be saved by our works. no man can ever earn his way into heaven nor offer any sacrifice worthy of getting into heaven. We can only enter Jannah through the Mercy and forgiveness of Allaah(swt) Where on earth did you get the idea we believe we gain heaven through our works?

[QUOTE=noselfwilling;1407129]
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
You were a fake or nominal Christian, not real so you never really left Christianity to begin with because you never were a Christian. I once believed as you do now that salvation was not through Jesus, but by the grace of God, His mercy and love came over me. God says if you search Him out with all your heart and soul you shall surely find Him. I can never leave my life in Christ, but you can yet one day give your life to Christ because the Bible says no man has committed blaspheming of the Holy Spirit while Jesus is not on earth. Now that is gracious God!
Believe as you wish.

format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
God loves you. He would never ask you to believe in something some man in a cave all by himself said without any evidence after he rejected Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Don't give into Satan. Revisionist story telling will simply not due six centuries later.
Of course Allaah(swt) loves me, that is why he led me to Islam

God provides real proof. 40 authors over 1500 years in 66 books in complete agreement. He shows that most scholars agree the disciples truly believed they had seen Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings for which there is no naturalistic explanation. Jesus really died on the cross which we have tonnes of evidence for, but no evidence otherwise or for your god just like we have no evidence for the Greek gods. They are just idols.

It is evil of you to ask people to believe blindly in your cult when you have no evidence and to lie about Jesus.
We love Jesus(as) deeply. He is one of the most beloved of Prophets(PBUH). We would never lie about him. Do you actually know what a cult is? And do you know it is highly impolite to insult your host?

One word of advice. It is highly offensive to come on an Islamic forum and say things such as idols of Islam, calling Islam a cult etc. You are a guest here and you will be treated with kindness and as a guest. but one more insult and your account here will be closed along with your ISP address blocked, and all of your posts deleted.

Debating, discussing is fine, but we will not allow any insulting of our beliefs.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 03:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
before you come here and try to convert people

Is that what he's doing.. bwahahhaa.. I thought he was having a bout of diarrhea and came to the nearest station to empty...

Jesus loves ya..
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:21 AM
If you can lose salvation then salvation is by works. A cult is a group that believe something without evidence. Hence, Islam is a cult, because it believes didn't die on the cross without any evidence.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 03:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
No we don't have to prove Jesus was resurrected to prove Islam is false. All we need to do to prove Islam is false is that Jesus died on the cross because Islam says he didn't.

Love that logic.. does that mean Judaism is also false? They don't seem to believe in your mangod fiasco either..
dude take a few lessons in logic and the art of persuasion.. although in order for speech to have any impression, it still has to have at least one element of logic..

have a good one..
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
If you can lose salvation then salvation is by works. A cult is a group that believe something without evidence. Hence, Islam is a cult, because it believes didn't die on the cross without any evidence.
actually a cult is much more than the above mentioned starting with and not limited to a very small following.. can't be the case for a religion of 1.86 billion and the fastest growing.. Now I am not sure what constitutes evidence for you? you seem either unwilling or unable to read volumes of literature that are quite sound and contrary to your very faulty beliefs. You're so poorly ailing that I truly hope for your religion' sake and credibility that you're not a representative, you're one pathetic prototype of a slobbering bible thumper!

all the best
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Love that logic.. does that mean Judaism is also false? They don't seem to believe in your mangod fiasco either.. dude take a few lessons in logic and the art of persuasion.. although in order for speech to have any impression, it still has to have at least one element of logic.. have a good one..
The OT Scriptures are true, they would accept the Lord Jesus as Savior, but Judaism today is not of Christ so it is false. It is like Islam, it rejects Jesus is God and their atoning sacrifice of the Messiah which the OT predicts. They reject their own suffering servant, Son of Man.

You should never be so evil as to ask someone to believe a faith that says Jesus didn't die on the cross when there is no evidence for this allegation. We have tonnes of evidence Jesus died on the cross, so the issue is not whether Jesus died on the cross or if Islam is false, for it most certainly is.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
The OT Scriptures are true, they would accept the Lord Jesus as Savior, but Judaism today is not of Christ so it is false. It is like Islam, it rejects Jesus is God and their atoning sacrifice of the Messiah which the OT predicts. They reject their own suffering servant, Son of Man. You should never be so evil as to ask someone to believe a faith that says Jesus didn't die on the cross when there is no evidence for this allegation. We have tonnes of evidence Jesus died on the cross, so the issue is not whether Jesus died on the cross or if Islam is false, for it most certainly is.

so Judaism is false, Mandeans are false, sabeans are false, Muslims are false, though they're all Abrahamic religions believing in ONE indivisible God and only Christianity is correct? .. seems to me that not only are you utterly outnumbered but totally monolithic in your polytheistic mangod beliefs.. hmmmmmmmmm

all the best
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
actually a cult is much more than the above mentioned starting with and not limited to a very small following.. can't be the case for a religion of 1.86 billion and the fastest growing.. Now I am not sure what constitutes evidence for you? you seem either unwilling or unable to read volumes of literature that are quite sound and contrary to your very faulty beliefs. You're so poorly ailing that I truly hope for your religion' sake and credibility that you're not a representative, you're one pathetic prototype of a slobbering bible thumper!

all the best
A cult is not restricted by size. All you need to do to be a cult is to believe something you have no evidence for which is a major tenent of your faith. Claiming Jesus didn't die on the cross with no evidence is what makes Islam a cult. No historian cares what some guy in a cave said six centuries later without any evidence.

There are no primary sources about Jesus claiming he didn' die on the cross.

Islam has no credibility. It is a cult without evidence. You are wrong to ask people to believe in blindly that which is false. That's Satan's doing.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
so Judaism is false, Mandeans are false, sabeans are false, Muslims are false, though they're all Abrahamic religions believing in ONE indivisible God and only Christianity is correct? .. seems to me that not only are you utterly outnumbered but totally monolithic in your polytheistic mangod beliefs.. hmmmmmmmmm

all the best
Abraham would have accepted Christ as God, the Son of Man Daniel prophesied, who became the once-for-all sacrifice.

Indeed Christians are outnumbered just as the Bible says we are a "little flock" (Luke 12.32), but praise the Lord when Jesus returns (Tribulation is 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022 Tisha B'Av), He destroys those religions.

There is nothing you can do to stop this though your cult will try.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 03:35 AM
All I ask is for you to pray on what I have said and make a promise to yourself to read the whole Bible within 2 or 3 years from start to finish with a good study Bible, and if you do that, you'll be coming to Christ with an honest and accept Him as God, your Lord and Savior. Amen.
Reply

جوري
02-06-2011, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
All I ask is for you to pray on what I have said and make a promise to yourself to read the whole Bible .

You seem upset, and we'd like to help you-- I can write you a prescription for Olanzapine or do you prefer a Fluphenazine Decanoate so you wouldn't have such terrible lapses.. I mean your exasperation is fit to land you at Sheppard's pratt!

all the best
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Woodrow
02-06-2011, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
If you can lose salvation then salvation is by works. A cult is a group that believe something without evidence. Hence, Islam is a cult, because it believes didn't die on the cross without any evidence.
It takes a very high degree of arrogance and an inflated ego to believe you can not lose salvation. That is a pitfall that enslaves bible only christians who never learn any church doctrine or the actual teachings of Christianity. Also a reason why the Preachers of the so called Fundementalist churches believe they follow true Christianity and the other 29,999 denominations are in error. Yes there are a minimum of 30,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which one of them is the one that follows Jesus(as)

We have the word of Allaah(swt) that Jesus(as) did not die. Once a person proves to himself that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt) and not the word of Muhammad. There is no need to prove anything in the Qur'an. However as Muslims we are encouraged to verify all things we believe. Islam encourages informed faith, not blind faith.
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Ramadhan
02-06-2011, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
All I ask is for you to pray on what I have said and make a promise to yourself to read the whole Bible within 2 or 3 years from start to finish with a good study Bible, and if you do that, you'll be coming to Christ with an honest and accept Him as God, your Lord and Savior. Amen.


Many of us here have done exactly as you asked us to. Just ask unc. Woodrow, br. MustafaMc, sis. Mila, etc etc.

Now to return the favor, pray to God and make a promise to yourself to read the whole translations and tafseers of the Qur'an within 2 to 3 years from start to finish with a good study of ahadeeth and the seerah (biography of the prophet SAW), and if you do that, you'll be coming to God with an honest and accept Him as God, your Lord and Savior. Ameen.
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YusufNoor
02-06-2011, 04:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
John the Baptist was pointing to Jesus, "Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him [Jesus]" (John 3.28). John the Apostle records this in his gospel account. John is the disciple whom Jesus loved most.

in order for John's statement to be "contemporaneous," it would have to have been recorded, according to you, around the year 30 CE. the Gospel labeled "according to John is dated around 95 CE. that's about 65 years later, ergo NOT contemporaneous.


The Bible is full of contemporaneous accounts of the life of Jesus.

John the Apostle places himself at the cross when Jesus died with the women specifically mentioned by name, including Jesus' mother. All the books of the Bible were written down right when their events occurred or shortly thereafter. Nobody in antiquity is so well documented.

these myths were NOT, according to Biblical Scholars, written down until 3 decades after Jesus' Earthly ministry. ergo NOT contemporaneous.


We don't know which of the 4 gospels came first, but we do know they were all written down nearly right when the events occurred. Mark writes about the death of Jesus on the cross and said Jesus was resurrected and where to go so see Him. Mark 16 gives some resurrection appearances. This was a retrieved chapter that apparently was lost. Since all the disciples died around 65 AD, all the books of the NT were written before then except for Revelation, John the Apostle wrote around 95 AD.

if "ALL the disciples died around 65 AD," how did John write a book in 95 CE? ;D

Acts written by Luke recounts many of the works and testimony of Paul which do not differ with the experiences of the Apostles. Whether you have the gospels only or Paul's writings only or Peter's writings only or John's writing only, the eyewitness testimony and message is the same in setting up the first churches. Paul's role was to travel to the Gentiles to set up the churches outside of Judea to spread the gospel of salvation to the world.

all of the "gospels" were written anonymously. deciding to give them their current monikers didn't happen until the mid-2nd century CE.



Jesus was speaking of God the Father, not God the Son, as He showed perfect obedience unto the Father as only God the Son could do. Jesus is God the Son because He forgave sins, which only God can do, and when the scribes wanted to kill Jesus for being the Forgiver of sins, they accused him of claiming to be God, "who can forgive sins but God only?" (Mark 2.7). Jesus responded, "And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, "Why do you question thus in your hearts?" (v.8). Now "ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy)" (v.10) when he healed him.
Nonetheless wrong.
It is a myth that Jesus didn't die on the cross. An old wives tale without evidence or support overturn the death that Jesus endured on the cross for the sins of the world.

actually, it is the crucifiction that is without contemporaneous evidence.

as Muslims, we are in agreement with those statements.

as for the other pagan myths you believe, we are NOT in agreement. we see no valid "evidence" for them.

peace
[/QUOTE]

YAWNS...

Uncle Woodrow, can you put some papers down? the little puppy appears to be urinating all over the place!

format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Since Irenaeus refutes someone taking Jesus' place, then that goes against what Muslims believe. And any gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant since they have no impact on the primary sources of the New Testaement and early church fathers.

Since there is no evidence to claim Jesus die on the cross, then He most certainly died on the cross. You're in doubt about Jesus not having died on the cross.
that's actually a non-sequitor. how does NO evidence equal evidence?

format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
Christians never followed the Gospel of Thomas (not Thomas in the Bible), Gospel of Peter (that's not 1 and 2 Peter), nor the gospel of Barnabas (not the Barnabas in the Bible). Christians already had the cannon and the 66 books of the Bible determined before the end of the 1st century. The Gospel of Thomas, Peter and Barnabas differ from every book of the Bible. Remember, gnostic texts centuries later are irrelevant just as the Qu'ran since it is too late to the ball game. Basically everything you said was wishful thinking and goes completely contrary to the evidence because you don't want to appreciate you are sinner in need of salvation, and only God can fulfill than through His only begotten Son by shedding His precious blood for the forgiveness of sins and give eternal life. Only God can take upon the sins of the world, and a just punishment is needed for sin which Jesus in our place saves us from Hell whosoever is willing to believe on Him as He really is, the 2nd Person of the Trinity.
actually, Sparky, the 1st recorded canon would be that of Marcion, who only put 11 Books in the NT. NEXT would be Iranaeus only confirms 21 books of the NT. it is not until the late 4th Century that Athanasius, while in exile, lists the books "currently' considered the NT.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon3.html

as for the 66 books you claim canonized in the 1st Century, THAT didn't happen until the Middle Ages, 700 years AFTER the completion of the Qur'an!

when you get out of Junior High School, why don't you stop back by and let us know how you are doing?
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 08:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It takes a very high degree of arrogance and an inflated ego to believe you can not lose salvation. That is a pitfall that enslaves bible only christians who never learn any church doctrine or the actual teachings of Christianity. Also a reason why the Preachers of the so called Fundementalist churches believe they follow true Christianity and the other 29,999 denominations are in error. Yes there are a minimum of 30,000 Christian denominations in the US alone. Which one of them is the one that follows Jesus(as)

We have the word of Allaah(swt) that Jesus(as) did not die. Once a person proves to himself that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt) and not the word of Muhammad. There is no need to prove anything in the Qur'an. However as Muslims we are encouraged to verify all things we believe. Islam encourages informed faith, not blind faith.
When God says something, He means it. When he says those who believe in Him have eternal life that can never be lost, "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Many people don't want trust in this God and that's their choice.

How man denominations are in there in Islam? It's at least 10,000, not as many because Islam only has half the number in Christendom but did you know the Bible says don't say I of Apollos or I of Cephas, meaning this or that denomination.

God of the Bible is against denominations, so true believers are those who are not part of a denomination. Can you say the same?


How do we know Allah is not Satan, because God provides evidence and Satan doesn. We have tonnes of evidence Jesus died on the cross. Verify this. Verify and prove you have no evidence in your claim Jesus didn't die. Don't give into the evil spirit, for you reject His atoning sacrifice in paying the ransom for your sins, there is no other way to be forgiven and saved.

You seem frustrated in your faith without evidence, fully of doubt.
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Tyrion
02-06-2011, 08:35 AM
Hey buddy, would you mind telling us what exactly you know (or rather, what you think you know) about Islam and Muslims? I'm curious. Maybe we can help teach you something so you can stop embarrassing yourself with this rubbish...

Also, is all this a result of your own thought and research, or are you just regurgitating what was fed to you from a church somewhere?
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 08:39 AM
the 1st recorded canon would be that of Marcion, who only put 11 Books in the NT. NEXT would be Iranaeus only confirms 21 books of the NT. it is not until the late 4th Century that Athanasius, while in exile, lists the books "currently' considered the NT.

as for the 66 books you claim canonized in the 1st Century, THAT didn't happen until the Middle Ages, 700 years AFTER the completion of the Qur'an!

when you get out of Junior High School, why don't you stop back by and let us know how you are doing?
You don't need to worry about when it was compiled. It's clear the 66 books are in complete agreement.

The important thing is all those books were written before 65 AD except John. Even a non-Christian like Marcion is compiling books at 85 AD you say so that tells you the books were established long before then.

When did John write the gospel of John. Not before 30 AD because Jesus died in 33 AD. John wrote John in 33 AD not 30 AD.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 08:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Hey buddy, would you mind telling us what exactly you know about Islam and Muslims? I'm curious.
I know that Islam is false because it has no evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross. That's all I need to know. I know historians also give the Qu'ran no consideration because it is so far removed from the primary sources.
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Tyrion
02-06-2011, 08:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
I know that Islam is false because it has no evidence Jesus didn't die on the cross. That's all I need to know. I know historians also give the Qu'ran no consideration because it is so far removed from the primary sources.
So in other words... You know nothing. Nice.
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noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 08:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar
Many of us here have done exactly as you asked us to. Just ask unc. Woodrow, br. MustafaMc, sis. Mila, etc etc.

Now to return the favor, pray to God and make a promise to yourself to read the whole translations and tafseers of the Qur'an within 2 to 3 years from start to finish with a good study of ahadeeth and the seerah (biography of the prophet SAW), and if you do that, you'll be coming to God with an honest and accept Him as God, your Lord and Savior. Ameen.
In order for someone to be interested in reading the Qu'ran you would need to give them a compelling argument and evidence for Jesus not dying on the cross to overturn all the evidence in the primary sources, since it is wrong to ask people to believe in your cult blindly. You should feel guilty when you don't have reason but just asserting blindly. What love is that? Any old cult could start that way.

A loving God would never ask someone to believe in someting blindly, but Satan would, that's how I know Allah is Satan.



Allah is Satan

The name Allah is derived from the Hebrew Chaldee word Halal which is the NAME OF SATAN in the scriptures in Isaiah 14:12 "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (HALAL), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Babylon worshiped the moon god. Arabia is the daughter of Babylon. Halal is also an Arab word which means "crescent moon". Muslims use the crescent moon on most of their flags. Halal also means to Muslims "of or being meat slaughtered in the prescribed way."

In the Koran, Allah has 99 names. Muhammad is the son of Abdulah the servant of Allah. So how could Muhammad have introduced Allah if his father's name is the slave of Allah? It is a Babylonian religion that practiced the same pilgrimage techniques.

The Islamic curtain is more impenetrable than the iron curtain. How could we have stopped WWII from happening and the subsequent iron curtain? The allies would have had to attack Germany years before 1939, noticing they were building their military to unreasonable levels.

Likewise, in order to stop the many Germany's of Islam that want to exterminate the Jews and take over the world by the mighty sword, the countries of the world are going to have to attack Muslim countries sooner the better or the inevitable war will be more devastating.

If someone breaks into your home like Muhammadistic suicide mass murderers and tries to kill your loved ones and you just turn the other cheek, you are guilty.

How long must Israel, on a sliver of land surround by Muslim coutnries, have to put up with every ten years a major military offensive attack from Islam?

Muslims are mercilessly trying to shove Israel into the Mediterranean Sea. What love is that?

I really see no solution but USA and the EU will have to invade Iran. They have left them no choice.
Reply

noselfwilling
02-06-2011, 08:45 AM
You seem upset.
Reply

Tyrion
02-06-2011, 08:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
You seem upset.
Was that directed at me? :p
Reply

Woodrow
02-06-2011, 09:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noselfwilling
When God says something, He means it. When he says those who believe in Him have eternal life that can never be lost, "they shall never perish" (John 10.28). Many people don't want trust in this God and that's their choice.

How man denominations are in there in Islam? It's at least 10,000, not as many because Islam only has half the number in Christendom but did you know the Bible says don't say I of Apollos or I of Cephas, meaning this or that denomination.

God of the Bible is against denominations, so true believers are those who are not part of a denomination. Can you say the same?


How do we know Allah is not Satan, because God provides evidence and Satan doesn. We have tonnes of evidence Jesus died on the cross. Verify this. Verify and prove you have no evidence in your claim Jesus didn't die. Don't give into the evil spirit, for you reject His atoning sacrifice in paying the ransom for your sins, there is no other way to be forgiven and saved.

You seem frustrated in your faith without evidence, fully of doubt.
2 immediate errors come to view immediately. the number of Muslims world wide now exceed the number of Christians, To compound that slightly over 1/2 the number of Christians world wide are Roman Catholic, which many of the bible based Christians claim are not Christian. Roughly 85% of the World's Muslims are Sunni and follow the Hanafi Madhab. There are no denominations in Islam, when a person says the shahadah with sincerity, that person is Muslim. there is no adjective in front of Muslim or Islam.

Did you know that Jesus(as) spoke Aramaic and the Aramaic name for God is Allah? Did you know that in Matthew 27:46 the Aramaic phrase transliterated into the Roman/English alphabet as “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” The Eloi written in Aramaic is the letter Aleph Lam Aleph Ha and pronounced Allah. did you know all Arabic and Aramaic written Bibles use the name Allah. Did you know that when you refer to Allah as Satan you are calling the God Jesus(as) worshiped Satan as Jesus also called Him Allah. Did you know the word God never appeared in any Bible until the 15th Century in the third edition of the KJV. Did you know the name God came from the German word Gott and German is an Indo-European language derived from Farsi(Aryan aka Iranian) plus Hindi and Gott was originally the name of the Hindu God Vishnu?

Frustrated in my faith? No Muslim is frustrated in Islam, it is not a blind faith religion, none of us follow any human clergy. There is no clergy in Islam. We each are individually responsible for learning and verifying the truth. But we are permitted to seek the guidance of scholars in our quest to learn and verify what we have been told or find in our searching. Every Muslim has a firm faith that all who die as a Muslim will go to heaven. This is from the mercy, justice and unlimited forgiveness of Allaah(swt), not from anything we do or deserve.

Do you even have any concept of what the pillars of faith are that all Muslims follow? No Muslim believes that the pillers will get anybody into heaven, but they are the physical and visible aspects of being Muslim.

Shahada


Shahadah is a saying professing monotheism and accepting Muhammad as God's messenger. The shahadah is a set statement normally recited in Arabic: (ašhadu an) lā ilāha illá l-Lāhi wa (ashhadu 'anna) Muḥammadan rasūlu l-Lāhi "(I profess that) there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God." Also, it is said that when dying one should recite this declaration of faith. In Azaan (call to prayer) it is recited. When a person wishes to convert religions they should recite this affirmation and believe in it.

Salat


Salat is the Islamic prayer. Salat consists of five daily prayers: Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Maghrib, and Isha'a. Fajr is performed at dawn, Dhuhr is a noon prayer, Asr is performed in the afternoon, Maghrib is the sunset prayer, and Isha'a is the evening prayer. Each prayer consists of a certain amount of rakaʿāt. A prayer either consists of two, three, or four rakaʿāt. All of these prayers are recited while facing the Ka'bah in Mecca. Muslims must wash themselves before prayer. The prayer is accompanied by a series of set positions including; bowing, standing, prostrating and sits.

Sawm

Muslims traditionally break their fasts in the month of Ramadan with dates as was the recorded practice (Sunnah) of Muhammad.

Three types of fasting (Sawm) are recognized by the Qur'an: Ritual fasting, fasting as compensation for repentance (both from sura Al-Baqara) and ascetic fasting (from Al-Ahzab).

Ritual fasting is an obligatory act during the month of Ramadan. Muslims must abstain from food, drink, and sexual intercourse from dawn to dusk during this month, and are to be especially mindful of other sins. Fasting is necessary for every Muslim over the age of 11.

The fast is meant to allow Muslims to seek nearness to God, to express their gratitude to and dependence on him, atone for their past sins, and to remind them of the needy.During Ramadan, Muslims are also expected to put more effort into following the teachings of Islam by refraining from violence, anger, envy, greed, lust, profane language, gossip and to try to get along with fellow Muslims better. In addition, all obscene and irreligious sights and sounds are to be avoided.

Fasting during Ramadan is obligatory, but is forbidden for several groups for whom it would be very dangerous and excessively problematic. These include pre-pubescent children, those with a medical condition such as diabetes, elderly people, and pregnant or breastfeeding women. Observing fasts is not permitted for menstruating women. Other individuals for whom it is considered acceptable not to fast are those who are ill or traveling. Missing fasts usually must be made up for soon afterward, although the exact requirements vary according to circumstance.

Zakāt


Zakāt or alms-giving is the practice of charitable giving by Muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so. It is considered to be a personal responsibility for Muslims to ease economic hardship for others and eliminate inequality. Zakat consists of spending 2.5% of one's wealth for the benefit of the poor or needy, including slaves, debtors and travelers. A Muslim may also donate more as an act of voluntary charity (sadaqah), rather than to achieve additional divine reward. There are two main types of Zakat. First, there is the kajj, which is a fixed amount based on the cost of food that is paid during the month of Ramadan by the head of a family for himself and his dependents. Second, there is the Zakat on wealth, which covers money made in business, savings, income, and so on. In current usage Zakat is treated as a 2.5% collection on most valuables and savings held for a full lunar year, as long as the total value is more than a basic minimum known as nisab (3 ounces (85.05 g)). As of 2 July 2010, nisab is approximately $3,275 or an equivalent amount in any other currency. Many Shi'ites are expected to pay an additional amount in the form of a khums tax, which they consider to be a separate ritual practice.

There are four principles that should be followed when giving the Zakat:

1. The giver must declare to God his intention to give the Zakat.
2. The Zakat must be paid on the day that it is due.
3. Payment must be in kind. This means if one is wealthy then he needs to pay 2.5% of his income. If he does not have much money, he needs to pay in a different way such as good deeds and good behavior toward others.
4. The Zakat must be distributed in the community from which it was taken.

Hajj



The Hajj is a pilgrimage that occurs during the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah to the holy city of Mecca, and derives from an ancient Arab practice. Every able-bodied Muslim is obliged to make the pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lifetime if he or she can afford it. When the pilgrim is around 10 km (6.2 mi) from Mecca, he must dress in Ihram clothing, which consists of two white sheets. Both men and women are required to make the pilgrimage to Mecca. After a Muslim makes the trip to Mecca, he/she is known as a hajj/hajja (one who made the pilgrimage to Mecca). The main rituals of the Hajj include walking seven times around the Kaaba, touching the Black Stone, traveling seven times between Mount Safa and Mount Marwah, and symbolically stoning the Devil in Mina.

The pilgrim, or the haji, is honoured in their community. Islamic teachers say that the Hajj should be an expression of devotion to God, not a means to gain social standing. The believer should be self-aware and examine their intentions in performing the pilgrimage. This should lead to constant striving for self-improvement. A pilgrimage made at any time other than the Hajj season is called an Umrah, and while not mandatory is strongly recommended.
Reply

Alpha Dude
02-06-2011, 09:13 AM
How do Muslims resolve the eyewitness testimony of the disciples?
They don't need to. Muslims don't consider their apparent words to be of any worth in the first place.

As has been explained, Jesus did not die on the cross. It was made to appear as though it was him when in reality it was someone else.

In order for someone to be interested in reading the Qu'ran you would need to give them a compelling argument and evidence for Jesus not dying on the cross to overturn all the evidence in the primary sources, since it is wrong to ask people to believe in your cult blindly. You should feel guilty when you don't have reason but just asserting blindly. What love is that? Any old cult could start that way.

A loving God would never ask someone to believe in someting blindly, but Satan would, that's how I know Allah is Satan.
It's ironic that you say this. You've never seen Jesus crucified with your own eyes. As a matter of fact, you've never seen Jesus. All you're relying on is altered texts to believe (blindly) that Jesus even existed.
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