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titus
02-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Source

The Pew Research Center has done an extensive worldwide study on Muslim population trends and recently announced their results. I thought some people might find it interesting. I believe they are now currently working on their Christian population trend.

The world's Muslim population is expected to increase by about 35% in the next 20 years, rising from 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion by 2030, according to new population projections by the Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion & Public Life.

Globally, the Muslim population is forecast to grow at about twice the rate of the non-Muslim population over the next two decades -- an average annual growth rate of 1.5% for Muslims, compared with 0.7% for non-Muslims. If current trends continue, Muslims will make up 26.4% of the world's total projected population of 8.3 billion in 2030, up from 23.4% of the estimated 2010 world population of 6.9 billion.

While the global Muslim population is expected to grow at a faster rate than the non-Muslim population, the Muslim population nevertheless is expected to grow at a slower pace in the next two decades than it did in the previous two decades. From 1990 to 2010, the global Muslim population increased at an average annual rate of 2.2%, compared with the projected rate of 1.5% for the period from 2010 to 2030.


.......

Europe

• In 2030, Muslims are projected to make up more than 10% of the total population in 10 European countries: Kosovo (93.5%), Albania (83.2%), Bosnia-Herzegovina (42.7%), Republic of Macedonia (40.3%), Montenegro (21.5%), Bulgaria (15.7%), Russia (14.4%), Georgia (11.5%), France (10.3%) and Belgium (10.2%).

• Russia will continue to have the largest Muslim population (in absolute numbers) in Europe in 2030. Its Muslim population is expected to rise from 16.4 million in 2010 to 18.6 million in 2030. The growth rate for the Muslim population in Russia is projected to be 0.6% annually over the next two decades. By contrast, Russia's non-Muslim population is expected to shrink by an average of 0.6% annually over the same period.


.......


The definition of Muslim in this report is very broad. The goal is to count all groups and individuals who self-identify as Muslims. This includes Muslims who may be secular or nonobservant. No attempt is made in this report to measure how religious Muslims are or to forecast levels of religiosity (or secularism) in the decades ahead.


.........

Related Factors: Conversion

Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems to be roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith. As a result, this report does not include any estimated future rate of conversions as a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth.



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aamirsaab
02-07-2011, 07:05 PM
So basically I win.
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aadil77
02-07-2011, 07:13 PM
300m increase every 10 years, that's constant

I reckon the rate is faster, but none of this matters anyway
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Perseveranze
02-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Peace,

Read that by 2050, Islam will be the biggest followed religion.
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GuestFellow
02-07-2011, 07:50 PM
:sl:

Statistical data on conversion to and from Islam are scarce. What little information is available suggests that there is no substantial net gain or loss in the number of Muslims through conversion globally; the number of people who become Muslims through conversion seems to be roughly equal to the number of Muslims who leave the faith. As a result, this report does not include any estimated future rate of conversions as a direct factor in the projections of Muslim population growth.
That's interesting. I noticed there are more westerners converting than compared to easterners...not sure if this is true.
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Woodrow
02-07-2011, 08:02 PM
I personally think the overall growth is going to be more. The numbers are taken from recent trends. I believe that if Peace is restored to Iraq and Afghanistan, it will increase the figures.

My logic is 2 things will happen if peace is restored. First the misconception of Islam is the enemy will fall away and second you will have returning soldiers who now will have thoughts of why they were even involved there and either they will see themselves as peace bringers in which case they will tend to want to show solidarity for the area by speaking positive about Islam. or they will see themselves as having been invaders and will be supportive of Islam out of remorse.
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Woodrow
02-07-2011, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
:sl:



That's interesting. I noticed there are more westerners converting than compared to easterners...not sure if this is true.
If what I have read in other sources it seems the rate of reverting is highest among Western College Women. It seems Educated Western Women like what they see in Islam.
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purple
02-07-2011, 08:06 PM
:sl:
Sisters and brothers, it is time to wake up to reality. While we often like to boast about the large size of our Ummah, the fact is that we are losing more hearts and minds everyday, due in large part to our silence about human rights abuses, especially those directed towards women. These people will continue to turn to the secular philosophies promoted by those who do take the time to speak out on their behalf: the feminists, socialists, and secularists.
http://islamfortoday.com/ummzaid06.htm

:wa:
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*charisma*
02-07-2011, 08:18 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

I'd prefer that rather than have a growing population, we increase our imans and be better Muslims, better warriors, better neighbors--quality over quantity--then I'm pretty sure the population will increase indefinitely.

fi aman allah
w'salaam
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titus
02-07-2011, 08:35 PM
I personally think the overall growth is going to be more. The numbers are taken from recent trends. I believe that if Peace is restored to Iraq and Afghanistan, it will increase the figures.
That may be true, especially in Afghanistan, but I am not sure how significant those numbers will be worldwide. The study also says that as Muslims become better educated, especially the women, the birth rates go down significantly. In Afghanistan the women (and men) are among the least educated in the Muslim world and the Pew report takes that into account, as well as the current situation and says they expect the average number of children per woman in Afghanistan to be 6.3, second only to Niger.




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Pygoscelis
02-07-2011, 08:43 PM
I agree with the post above and with Woodrow's post. If Islam can shake the negative stereotype then it may grow even faster.

But if it can not shake the negative stereotype (as Woodrow is saying it will) or if it does not shape towards good Islam (like the post above is stressing) and gets hijacked by those who would use it for ill then too much and too fast growth in numbers of muslims could lead to a world of conflict even worse than what we see now.

News about Islam quickly growing will please fellow muslims, will be indifferent to people like myself, but will terrify and alarm the religious right in the USA and charge them up even more than they are now, with their "Freedom Fries" and "Terror Mosque" stories and their "Burn a Quran" days.
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Pygoscelis
02-07-2011, 08:45 PM
That trend is true in general. The more educated people are, the fewer children they have. Strange correlation, but a very strong one. It seems to apply across cultural and religious boundries.
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جوري
02-07-2011, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by titus
The study also says that as Muslims become better educated, especially the women,

Muslim women have always been better educated than their western counterparts.. Even in England where Muslims are not doing particularly as well as they're in America; Muslim women fair better even than both atheist and Christian women. The study was posted here by our dear pal 'Thinker' many of you seem to inadvertently post links that nullify your own claims..

BTW, Jewish women have some of the highest birth-rates:
Hasidic Jews typically produce large families; the average Hasidic family in the United States has 7 or 8 children.[8] This custom is followed out of a desire to fulfil the Biblical mandate to "be fruitful and multiply."[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasidic_Judaism

do you find that your stereo-types hold true here or just as far as Muslims are concerned because you're so well integrated with said communities?

Birthrate is usually an economic issue rather than an education Issue. one of the conditions of getting married in Islam is being able to financially afford it (in some cultures people simply live with their parents) to others this maybe unacceptable hence the late marriages and lesser number of children .. fertility problems increase as one ages thus not affording everyone the size of the family that they may otherwise desire or seek at that stage even if they are financially and education wise comfortable!

all the best
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AhlaamBella
02-08-2011, 01:40 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That trend is true in general. The more educated people are, the fewer children they have. Strange correlation, but a very strong one. It seems to apply across cultural and religious boundries.
Really? That's interesting. Got any studies/research to back that up?
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GuestFellow
02-08-2011, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That trend is true in general. The more educated people are, the fewer children they have. Strange correlation, but a very strong one. It seems to apply across cultural and religious boundries.
I never heard of this. The explanation behind this correlation I think is that the more educated you are, the more likely you are going to get a job that pays well which means more money to use for yourself. So you prefer to have less kids because more kids means spending more money on your children rather than yourself...

I think another reason might be that women in the west are more likely to be concerned about their body due to the pressure on the mainstream media, so would want less children, in order to stay in shape...

In addition, its more likely that educated women want less children because they want to put their careers first rather than focusing on their family life...

^ I'm just purely speculating.
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Woodrow
02-08-2011, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by AhlaamBella
Really? That's interesting. Got any studies/research to back that up?
Years ago when more women started getting advanced degrees several studies were made that I can remember, those studies indicated the more education a woman had the less children she had.

It makes sense when you think about it. The more education awoman has usually means the longer she has put off marriage for school, reducing the number of child bearing years she will have after marriage.

A more recent study seems to show this trend is continuing.

[QUOTEWomen's access to education, health care, family planning, and employment all affect family size. Studies show that women who have completed primary school have fewer children than those with no education. Education is key because educated women are more likely to know what social, community, and health services, including family planning, are available and to have the confidence to use them. In addition, women with more education have more opportunities outside the home and can see the benefits of education for their children. Women who achieve a relatively high level of education are also more likely to enter the labor force before they marry or begin childbearing, and ultimately to have smaller families than women who marry in their teens. This trend is evident in almost every country where data are available. As the figure "Women's Education and Family Size" shows, women with a secondary school education have substantially smaller families than women with less education.[/QUOTE] source
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جوري
02-08-2011, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
I never heard of this. The explanation behind this correlation I think is that the more educated you are, the more likely you are going to get a job that pays well which means more money to use for yourself. So you prefer to have less kids because more kids means spending more money on your children rather than yourself... I think another reason might be that women in the west are more likely to be concerned about their body due to the pressure on the mainstream media, so would want less children, in order to stay in shape... In addition, its more likely that educated women want less children because they want to put their careers first rather than focusing on their family life... ^ I'm just purely speculating.

Most of the women I have encountered in my profession wanted to get their life together so as to provide a reasonable life for their children, unfortunately also not many find a suitable partner, and if/when they do, sometimes that well is all dried up-- I know many Muslim sisters who are themselves struggling with fertility treatments, some are fortunate enough to have one child, some can't conceive at all. One of my friends recently had a ruptured uterus during childbirth and had a hysterectomy thus ending her career as a childbearing woman..

Whereas I don't at all agree with the inane conclusions these atheists come up with, I know that being a woman has absolutely nothing to do with east or west, it is a very small percentage of the population that want their focal point to be a career rather than family.. Most people would like to have both in an ideal place but believe me no one would choose work over family unless they had some unfortunate reasons to.

:w:
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جوري
02-08-2011, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
It makes sense when you think about it. The more education awoman has usually means the longer she has put off marriage for school, reducing the number of child bearing years she will have after marriage.

That is very true!

:w:
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Pygoscelis
02-08-2011, 05:03 AM
I think the more interesting statistic is that educated MEN also tend to have fewer children.
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GuestFellow
02-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think the more interesting statistic is that educated MEN also tend to have fewer children.
The term educated is a bit vague. Do you mean someone who has a degree?

I know many people that have a degree but cannot even type a simple letter. Some don't know that Africa is a continent...
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Argamemnon
02-08-2011, 02:49 PM
The fact that the population in "Muslim countries" is increasing doesn't necessarily mean that the numbers of Muslims are increasing ???

I don't know about other Muslim countries, but according to the article below about 58% of Turks define themselves as "totally secular and modern" and dislike Islamic values...

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2348...-suggests.html
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جوري
02-08-2011, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
The term educated is a bit vague. Do you mean someone who has a degree? I know many people that have a degree but cannot even type a simple letter. Some don't know that Africa is a continent...

he meant educated in the art of self-pleasure and epicureanism-- too interested in the self to care about rug-rats or the well-fare of other beings..

:w:
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Perseveranze
02-08-2011, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ubah
Asalaamu Alaikum,

Putting the point in, if people are too dumb to differentiate religion to the actions of a human, not much we can do for them. Don't think it's right to join or STAY in a religion based on how people act in it, should join it based on its values and teachings which you wish to follow.

Islam as a religion challenges you think, not follow or judge something because he or she did it.
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titus
02-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Muslim women have always been better educated than their western counterparts..
Actually the literacy rate of many Muslim majority countries falls below that of the West.



Now if you are comparing Muslims who live in the West with non-Muslims that live in the West you may be right, but this topic is about the worldwide Muslim population.

So you prefer to have less kids because more kids means spending more money on your children rather than yourself... I think another reason might be that women in the west are more likely to be concerned about their body due to the pressure on the mainstream media, so would want less children, in order to stay in shape... In addition, its more likely that educated women want less children because they want to put their careers first rather than focusing on their family life..
I think Woodrow was much closer to the mark.

Not have children in the West has extremely little to do with body issues. While those do exist they are rare. The biggest culprit is prioritizing time.

Those who are educated spend more time in school and therefore usually start families later. Also, since they are educated, they tend to want to an occupation more. Once you go beyond 1 or 2 children then a stay at home parent is practically a requirement unless you happen to be very well off financially.

Those with less education tend to have lower paying jobs, or intend to stay at home anyway and have their other half support them. Those people are going to, therefore, be much more likely to stay home and take care of children and also be willing to have more children.
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Argamemnon
02-09-2011, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Actually the literacy rate of many Muslim majority countries falls below that of the West.

Thanks for posting this map, Afghanistan and Pakistan and some African nations are so far behind the rest (red colored countries). A literacy rate below 50% is truly dramatic. Very sad indeed.. Libya is a positive surprise to me, they are even better off than Iran (!?) But then, Libya is a very small country compared to Iran.
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Argamemnon
02-09-2011, 03:28 PM
^^ Another interesting fact I have noticed is that China is at the same level as Portugal (90-94%) !! Who would have thought that. Portugal is behind all other European and western countries.

Turkey and Brazil are behind Mexico and China.
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Argamemnon
02-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Guestfellow
The term educated is a bit vague. Do you mean someone who has a degree?

I know many people that have a degree but cannot even type a simple letter. Some don't know that Africa is a continent...
I have encountered such types, they think that using certain Latin words makes them smarter than other people ("intellectual") and look down on them, while they themselves are utterly ignorant about the subject they are arguing about. Funny people.
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Woodrow
02-09-2011, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I think the more interesting statistic is that educated MEN also tend to have fewer children.
I don't have any verifiable facts, but I believe that educated men would be prone to marry educated women. Many if not most get married to women that statistically have fewer children.

However I am suspect that the next biggest growth of Islam is going to be from reverts and not births. I say that because Muslim have been migrating to areas of few Muslims and the non-Muslims are potential Muslims.
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Woodrow
02-09-2011, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Actually the literacy rate of many Muslim majority countries falls below that of the West.



Now if you are comparing Muslims who live in the West with non-Muslims that live in the West you may be right, but this topic is about the worldwide Muslim population.


I think Woodrow was much closer to the mark.

Not have children in the West has extremely little to do with body issues. While those do exist they are rare. The biggest culprit is prioritizing time.

Those who are educated spend more time in school and therefore usually start families later. Also, since they are educated, they tend to want to an occupation more. Once you go beyond 1 or 2 children then a stay at home parent is practically a requirement unless you happen to be very well off financially.

Those with less education tend to have lower paying jobs, or intend to stay at home anyway and have their other half support them. Those people are going to, therefore, be much more likely to stay home and take care of children and also be willing to have more children.
In your map did you notice that Indonesia the country with the world's largest Muslim population has one of the highest literacy rates.
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جوري
02-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Actually the literacy rate of many Muslim majority countries falls below that of the West.


Now if you are comparing Muslims who live in the West with non-Muslims that live in the West you may be right, but this topic is about the worldwide Muslim population.


.
The question is a socio-economic and a geo-political one-- when Muslim women or men are offered an opportunity they fare better than their western counterparts and so tell us your stats. The 'Educated' west is made largely of immigrants and has always taken the opportunity of volatility of certain regions to invite their scholars and intellectuals outside.. As such if you go to any institution private/governmental you'll see it composed mostly of outsiders who are American citizens be they Chinese or Iranians etc. .. It doesn't suddenly elevate your average chawbacon to that of an Illuminati.. it is simply the calculation of the mean!

I wonder how you must comb through statistics now to serve your personal interest merely to avoid falling into the pit that you've created for yourself in the previous thread..


all the best
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Argamemnon
02-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
In your map did you notice that Indonesia the country with the world's largest Muslim population has one of the highest literacy rates.
I didn't, thanks for reminding. Masha'Allah, Indonesia is ahead of Turkey.
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Argamemnon
02-09-2011, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
The 'Educated' west is made largely of immigrants and has always taken the opportunity of volatility of certain regions to invite their scholars and intellectuals outside.. As such if you go to any institution private/governmental you'll see it composed mostly of outsiders who are American citizens be they Chinese or Iranians etc. ..
I think that mostly applies to the U.S. and Canada (perhaps also Australia?).. Europe is somewhat different.

:w:
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جوري
02-09-2011, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Argamemnon
I think that mostly applies to the U.S. and Canada (perhaps also Australia?).. Europe is somewhat different.

I am not all that familiar with how things run in Europe, however, a while back ''Thinker'' had shared with us a nice PDF about the Muslim Ghettos in Europe and the education level of the Muslim population there and according to that report Muslim women specifically fared better education wise than both atheist/ and christians.

I am pretty sure he'd have taken that portion out if he could, but each of them often undermines his own assertions with something they link us too..

:w:
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Pygoscelis
02-09-2011, 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
However I am suspect that the next biggest growth of Islam is going to be from reverts and not births. I say that because Muslim have been migrating to areas of few Muslims and the non-Muslims are potential Muslims.
That very well could be. But then I think the question becomes of how devout Islam becomes in the new country. Immigrants may be just as likely to go apostate from their home religion, espcially in future generations, or to become much more liberal in it, maybe even to the point that they become muslims in name only.

I just had a "muslim" family in my office as clients. The mother was clearly more pious than the sons, but even she appeared more liberal than you'd find overseas from what I could tell. No Hijab, no reference to religion at all. I could not tell if she was muslim until she told me they are (and she seemed to find that title important). Meanwhile one of her sons told me he is trying to quit smoking, both tobaco and marijuana. He told me about music he likes and that he recently broke up with a girlfriend his parents never met.

So I think the immigration to convert thing could run in both directions, and could change the kind of Islam that comes to grow in these new lands. Which is either good or bad, depending on your perspective.
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Pygoscelis
02-09-2011, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by titus
The data on Portugal, South Africa, and Argentina all come as surprises to me.
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جوري
02-09-2011, 06:40 PM
Many people don't wear hijab, smoke and listen to Music and are still devoutly Muslim -- they maybe misinformed of what is and what isn't permitted.. I myself used to play the piano and had no clue about the rulings on music!
and I know tons of Muslims who smoke.. my father used a pipe on the weekend for years, he still wrote two books about Islam on the side-- many Muslim women don't wear hijab out of apprehension of being targeted in public..

all the best
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Woodrow
02-09-2011, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
That very well could be. But then I think the question becomes of how devout Islam becomes in the new country. Immigrants may be just as likely to go apostate from their home religion, espcially in future generations, or to become much more liberal in it, maybe even to the point that they become muslims in name only.
Again I point back to Indonesia. Predominantly Muslim and home of the largest number of Muslims. Islam spread there by reverts. Nearly all of it's growth occurred in the 16th Century and was because of people reverting. Islam is still new in the USA in terms of growth, but the jump in the past 10 years has been phenomenal. I do admit a lot of it was from immigration, but the rate of American reverting to Islam has been from 20-30,000 annually for the past couple of years. Not very large in terms of world population, but very impressive considering that not long back very few Americans had ever seen a Muslim in person.
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Ramadhan
02-10-2011, 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Again I point back to Indonesia. Predominantly Muslim and home of the largest number of Muslims. Islam spread there by reverts. Nearly all of it's growth occurred in the 16th Century and was because of people reverting.

+100000000000
(meaning: I totally absolutely support this statement).

The spread of Islam to Indonesia was purely through peaceful reversion.

Islam came to Indonesia brought by traders from Gujarat (India) and Yemen. First in the 12th-13th century in Sumatra and then spread to the eastern part of Indonesia in later centuries.

Originally Posted by Woodrow
Islam is still new in the USA in terms of growth, but the jump in the past 10 years has been phenomenal. I do admit a lot of it was from immigration, but the rate of American reverting to Islam has been from 20-30,000 annually for the past couple of years. Not very large in terms of world population, but very impressive considering that not long back very few Americans had ever seen a Muslim in person.
May Allah SWT make Islam prosper in North America. Amiin.
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ardianto
02-10-2011, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
In your map did you notice that Indonesia the country with the world's largest Muslim population has one of the highest literacy rates.
According to UNDP literacy rate in Indonesia in 2005 was 87.9% and in 2009 was 92.0%

Increased 4.1% in 4 years.
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titus
02-10-2011, 02:02 PM
The question is a socio-economic and a geo-political one-- when Muslim women or men are offered an opportunity they fare better than their western counterparts and so tell us your stats. The 'Educated' west is made largely of immigrants and has always taken the opportunity of volatility of certain regions to invite their scholars and intellectuals outside..
Partially correct. When Muslim women are given the oppurtunity that may be true (I do not know the statistics, I'll take your word for it), but the fact remains that (excluding Indonesia and some others (noted Woodrow)) Muslim women as a whole around the world are less educated than the average American or European and that is a major factor in the birth rate.

As such if you go to any institution private/governmental you'll see it composed mostly of outsiders who are American citizens be they Chinese or Iranians etc. .. It doesn't suddenly elevate your average chawbacon to that of an Illuminati.. it is simply the calculation of the mean!
That is true in some cases. The United States does try to gather experts in many fields to move the US. Your assertion that private and government institutions are mostly composed of foreigners is mistaken, although they do often make up a substantial portion.

I wonder how you must comb through statistics now to serve your personal interest merely to avoid falling into the pit that you've created for yourself in the previous thread..
As usual you are trying to turn every thread I am in into a personal attack and accuse me of some sordid deed or intention. I would be interested, though, in hearing what you believe my intent is by starting this thread and what devious personal interest it is that you believe I am trying to fulfill.
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ardianto
02-10-2011, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Partially correct. When Muslim women are given the oppurtunity that may be true (I do not know the statistics, I'll take your word for it), but the fact remains that (excluding Indonesia and some others (noted Woodrow)) Muslim women as a whole around the world are less educated than the average American or European and that is a major factor in the birth rate.
Many Muslim women can't get high education because their communities forbid it. And those women are forced to marry in young age with husbands that chosen by their families.

But actually, it's based on cultural, not sharia. I don't find any rule in sharia that forbid women to get education that same with men.
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جوري
02-10-2011, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Partially correct. When Muslim women are given the oppurtunity that may be true (I do not know the statistics, I'll take your word for it), but the fact remains that (excluding Indonesia and some others (noted Woodrow)) Muslim women as a whole around the world are less educated than the average American or European and that is a major factor in the birth rate.
Again, not true, there are more women sitting in the parliament in Iran than there are women in the U.S, more female doctors in Egypt than there are in the U.S percentage wise, and I'd go the distance to say if you strip the scholars you've here of their citizenship you'll find that they come from elsewhere!

That is true in some cases. The United States does try to gather experts in many fields to move the US. Your assertion that private and government institutions are mostly composed of foreigners is mistaken, although they do often make up a substantial portion.
Well you're right they must employ minions and minions often make the majority of workers!


As usual you are trying to turn every thread I am in into a personal attack and accuse me of some sordid deed or intention. I would be interested, though, in hearing what you believe my intent is by starting this thread and what devious personal interest it is that you believe I am trying to fulfill.
How is it a personal attack to state the obvious? If you weren't so busy saving face from holes you dig for yourself you'd see it as clearly as we do.
You should ask yourself what your interests are? I am not the one to answer that Q for you..

all the best
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Ramadhan
02-10-2011, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
Again, not true, there are more women sitting in the parliament in Iran than there are women in the U.S,

I would also want to add that the four most populous muslim countries all already had women as heads of governments/states: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh. Meanwhile, USA is still dreaming about having its first female president.
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titus
02-10-2011, 05:48 PM
Again, not true, there are more women sitting in the parliament in Iran than there are women in the U.S, more female doctors in Egypt than there are in the U.S percentage wise, and I'd go the distance to say if you strip the scholars you've here of their citizenship you'll find that they come from elsewhere!
What exactly did I say that was not true?

I said, and let me quote myself since you seem to have completely missed it:

but the fact remains that (excluding Indonesia and some others (noted Woodrow)) Muslim women as a whole around the world are less educated than the average American or European and that is a major factor in the birth rate.

Yes, there are exceptions, but as a whole my comment is correct.

The number of women in the Iranian parliament has absolutely zero to do with my comment.

How is it a personal attack to state the obvious? If you weren't so busy saving face from holes you dig for yourself you'd see it as clearly as we do.
You should ask yourself what your interests are? I am not the one to answer that Q for you..
I thought you might have some insight into my interests since you claim I am making up facts to serve them. Since you now claim to not be able answer that question I guess I was wrong.

By the way, claiming I am making up facts to serve my personal interest is a personal attack. If you can quote one thing that I have said in this thread that is not true and can show facts to refute it then please do so.

If you believe my claim about education is wrong then please show me the average years of education women receive in the US and Europe and compare it with the average number of years of education a woman receives in a Muslim majority nation.

If I am wrong then I will admit it. If you are wrong then you can apologize for claiming I am making up facts which I have already supported with evidence.

And don't try and turn this into some kind of attack, or try to paint me as someone trying to make Muslims look bad. Poor education in some Muslim countries is a fact and only and ignorant person would try to deny it. Only by pointing it out is there any chance of fixing it. If you want it to continue then bury your head in the sand and ignore it, or even try to convince people that education for Muslim women around the world is superior than that of the US or Europe.
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 05:50 PM
I would also want to add that the four most populous muslim countries all already had women as heads of governments/states: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh. Meanwhile, USA is still dreaming about having its first female president.
Very true, but completely irrelevant to any comment I made.
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جوري
02-10-2011, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar


I would also want to add that the four most populous muslim countries all already had women as heads of governments/states: Indonesia, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh. Meanwhile, USA is still dreaming about having its first female president.
Indeed-- and quite relevant ..

:w:
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titus
02-10-2011, 06:37 PM
Please refer back to the chart I posted showing Muslim majority nations and comparing their average years of education with their birth rates. You can see the correlation easily.

You can also look at this chart here, with a few examples listed

SOURCE


Country or area and average years of education for women

Afghanistan 5
Bangladesh 8
Iraq 8
Nigeria 8
Pakistan 6

Jordan 13
Indonesia 13
Egypt 11
India 10
Libya 17


USA 17
France 16
UK 17
Netherlands 17

It shows the average years of education for education for nations around the world and even differentiates between men and women.

As a whole Muslim nations fall far behind the US and Europe when it comes to education. This can be seen in the illiteracy rates of those countries also which has already been posted.

This is the number one factor in birth rates.

The countries mentioned by Naidamar (Indonesia, Pakistan, India and Bangladesh) are a mixed bag when it comes to education. Indonesia and India both do decently, but Pakistan and Bangladesh (with combined populations of close to 350,000,000) are woefully behind when it comes to years of education, with their average citizen getting about half of what the average American or European gets. With their population sizes they, along with other countries, bring the education numbers for Muslims as a whole around the world down considerably.

The fact that they had women leaders has absolutely nothing to do with these facts and is not an indicator of the level of education of women in those countries compared to the US and Europe.

If you truly believe that the level of education received in countries such as Bangladesh, Pakistan or Nigeria which all have huge Muslim populations is anything near that of Europe or the US then you are mistaken.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
02-10-2011, 06:46 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum

Regarding the Muslims in China, even though the Chinese don't do censuses based on Religion, reports say there are about 20Million Muslims in china. This number is probably in the low range.





Reply

جوري
02-10-2011, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Assalaamu Alaikum Regarding the Muslims in China, even though the Chinese don't do censuses based on Religion, reports say there are about 20Million Muslims in china. This number is probably in the low range.
wa3lykoum aslaam..

indeed it is a matter of time insha'Allah before there is a powerful Muslim empire the likes of what we've seen with the Umayyad, the fatamids, the Abbasids, the Ottomans..
China can censor its Muslims and their numbers as do westerners of the debt they owe the Muslim world.. but we're seeing change happen in a matter of days and I am hopeful that good things are ahead for this ummah insha'Allah..

thank you for sharing
:w:
Reply

aadil77
02-10-2011, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Assalaamu Alaikum

Regarding the Muslims in China, even though the Chinese don't do censuses based on Religion, reports say there are about 20Million Muslims in china. This number is probably in the low range.
That is a low figure, the BBC website puts it at 65 million, that was years ago, most likely around 100 million
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 07:05 PM
The Pew report puts the population in China at around 22,000,000.
Reply

جوري
02-10-2011, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by titus
What exactly did I say that was not true?
I said, and let me quote myself since you seem to have completely missed it:
but the fact remains that (excluding Indonesia and some others (noted Woodrow)) Muslim women as a whole around the world are less educated than the average American or European and that is a major factor in the birth rate.
Yes, there are exceptions, but as a whole my comment is correct.
The number of women in the Iranian parliament has absolutely zero to do with my comment.
I thought you might have some insight into my interests since you claim I am making up facts to serve them. Since you now claim to not be able answer that question I guess I was wrong.
Much of what you write is incorrect.. and you do it for several reasons, I wonder if you yourself are even aware of what they're?
part of it undoubtedly to save face, especially when you find yourself at a loss to reconcile your beliefs with the fact that you yourself interpret based on your own personal bias, and the second reason, if because you're quite frankly naive to what goes on in the world around you and unable to be critical of data or even interpret it correctly.. as such like many times before google the first article that will echo your sentiment often times in your sad quest undermining your own point. Google doesn't a scholar make..
for I can just as easily google this:

An average of 24 cases are submitted to the U.S. Office of Research Integrity annually, according to Dr. Luther. And in a survey of NIH-funded scientists published in Nature, researchers calculated that scientists observed a minimum of 2,325 incidents of scientific misconduct per year (June 19, 2008, Vol. 453:7198, pp. 980-982).


lies, dam n lies and statistics as the adage goes.

and given that you have zero credentials to loan you a sliver of a critical mind to approach much of what you write here, you can only be too happy with the little petty attempts at what you in your own mind perceive as battles won.


Most of the times I find what you write or quote only too laughable really like the article you quoted by some nameless student in a catholic university as a fact on Afghanistan, or your recent aid to your fellow atheist with statistics that have only undermined the point you were trying to make, and numerous others.. believe me under normal circumstances I wouldn't even bother reply to you all together, but at times I can't pass up the opportunity to expose you for a fraud as many westerners not unlike yourself are!


By the way, claiming I am making up facts to serve my personal interest is a personal attack. If you can quote one thing that I have said in this thread that is not true and can show facts to refute it then please do so.
I believe I have done so and repeatedly, the problem is with your short or rather should say selective memory loss!
If you believe my claim about education is wrong then please show me the average years of education women receive in the US and Europe and compare it with the average number of years of education a woman receives in a Muslim majority nation.
I have no interest in running that kind of research and have no desire to take your word for it as accurate for reasons afore mentioned!
If I am wrong then I will admit it. If you are wrong then you can apologize for claiming I am making up facts which I have already supported with evidence.
please.. you'll admit you're wrong one day I guarantee, but it will be too late to matter at that stage!
And don't try and turn this into some kind of attack, or try to paint me as someone trying to make Muslims look bad. Poor education in some Muslim countries is a fact and only and ignorant person would try to deny it. Only by pointing it out is there any chance of fixing it. If you want it to continue then bury your head in the sand and ignore it, or even try to convince people that education for Muslim women around the world is superior than that of the US or Europe.
You couldn't make Muslims look bad if you tried.. and I certainly don't find you as vile as posters outside of this forum, but that may very well be for the sake of your longevity on this forum.. either way how you think or feel about Muslims has always been and will always be inconsequential!

all the best
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 07:57 PM
As usual from you a long rant with many insults and no facts pertaining to the topic. You quote me then post something completely irrelevant to what I posted and claim "victory" where there wasn't even a battle except for the one in your own mind.

And the funny thing is I really have no idea why you are upset with me or what I have posted, especially on this thread. What exactly is it that you disagree with that I have posted? Please be specific.
Reply

Zafran
02-10-2011, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by titus
As usual from you a long rant with many insults and no facts pertaining to the topic. You quote me then post something completely irrelevant to what I posted and claim "victory" where there wasn't even a battle except for the one in your own mind.

And the funny thing is I really have no idea why you are upset with me or what I have posted, especially on this thread. What exactly is it that you disagree with that I have posted? Please be specific.
Your basically saying muslim women are stupid and western women are smart becasue they can read and write. Futhermore that means that stupid women have more children and smarter women have less.
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 08:21 PM
I never said anything about "smart" or "stupid". If that was your interpretation then you were mistaken.

Myself and some of your fellow Muslims (including Woodrow) have explained some of the reasons that there is a correlation between the level of education of someone and the number of children they have.

Now, do you believe that Woodrow is calling Muslim women stupid also? If not then why accuse me of it?

Facts are facts. Ignoring them does not make them go away. It is a fact that education needs to improve, for both men and women, in countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Niger which all have Muslim majority populations. I don't point this out in order to make Muslims seem "stupid". Far from it.

Instead of getting upset with me people need to get upset with what is causing the lack of education in those countries.
Reply

جوري
02-10-2011, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by titus
As usual from you a long rant with many insults and no facts pertaining to the topic. You quote me then post something completely irrelevant to what I posted and claim "victory" where there wasn't even a battle except for the one in your own mind.
Do you have to come right out and beat on your chest for people to figure out your motive here? As I said you're not particularly sophisticated in how you handle the claims you present and unable to defend them properly!
And the funny thing is I really have no idea why you are upset with me or what I have posted, especially on this thread. What exactly is it that you disagree with that I have posted? Please be specific.
I am not upset at all-- I am undermining your credibility and it isn't very difficult to do!

all the best
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 08:28 PM
Do you have to come right out and beat on your chest for people to figure out your motive here?
When you claim to know what it is then hem and haw about what you think it is you bet I do.
Reply

Zafran
02-10-2011, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by titus
I never said anything about "smart" or "stupid". If that was your interpretation then you were mistaken.

Myself and some of your fellow Muslims (including Woodrow) have explained some of the reasons that there is a correlation between the level of education of someone and the number of children they have.

Now, do you believe that Woodrow is calling Muslim women stupid also? If not then why accuse me of it?

Facts are facts. Ignoring them does not make them go away. It is a fact that education needs to improve, for both men and women, in countries such as Pakistan, Afghanistan and Niger which all have Muslim majority populations. I don't point this out in order to make Muslims seem "stupid". Far from it.

Instead of getting upset with me people need to get upset with what is causing the lack of education in those countries.
we're not ignoring them but its odd how you can focus on the muslims and yet forget about India (an upcoming economy has a preety low literacy rate) african countries that are in red as well

I also like the way you say YOUR fellow muslim (woodrow) as if your on one group and muslims in another just to remind you most muslims on this forum are western as we are muslims.

Its not facts its statistics and eductaion isnt the only problem war is another especially in regions like Pakistan, afgahinstan, Iraq and somalia.
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titus
02-10-2011, 08:40 PM
we're not ignoring them but its odd how you can focus on the muslims and yet forget about India (an upcoming economy has a preety low literacy rate) african countries that are in red as well
Because the topic is about the Muslim population growth so I have focused on Muslim countries. I only brought up Western education levels in response to another poster.

I also like the way you say YOUR fellow muslim (woodrow) as if your on one group and muslims in another just to remind you most muslims on this forum are western as we are muslims.
Again, you are too sensitive. This is a Muslim forum therefore is it not natural to categorize someone as either Muslim or not Muslim? Heck, it's announced under our names on every post. I was simply trying to point out that stating facts about education levels and discussing its correlation with child bearing is not an attempt to be anti-Muslim as there were Muslims who were discussing it also.

ts not facts its statistics and eductaion isnt the only problem war is another especially in region like Pakistan, afgahinstan, Iraq and somalia.
I never claimed it was the only problem. That doesn't mean we should pretend the problem doesn't exist.
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جوري
02-10-2011, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by titus
When you claim to know what it is then hem and haw about what you think it is you bet I do.

Dude go clean your droppings from the other thread, you're being owned by 18 year olds.. like I said it isn't very difficult to do, as you're extremely under-educated or superficially educated at best!

all the best
Reply

Zafran
02-10-2011, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Because the topic is about the Muslim population growth so I have focused on Muslim countries. I only brought up Western education levels in response to another poster.



Again, you are too sensitive. This is a Muslim forum therefore is it not natural to categorize someone as either Muslim or not Muslim? Heck, it's announced under our names on every post. I was simply trying to point out that stating facts about education levels and discussing its correlation with child bearing is not an attempt to be anti-Muslim as there were Muslims who were discussing it also.



I never claimed it was the only problem. That doesn't mean we should pretend the problem doesn't exist.
You should have brought up other african countries as well as india as they are clearly in the same region of muslim majority countires that have bad literacy rate

Each muslim is an indivdual who thinks for her or himself to put them in a category is like putting all "YOU" non muslims in the same one category.

Never said there wasnt any literacy problem in some countries around the world especially around africa and sub continent
Reply

titus
02-10-2011, 09:02 PM
But what does the literacy rate of Liberia have to do with the discussion and why should I have brought it up?

Is it my responsibility to point out other nations that have bad literacy rates in order to make you somehow feel better when it has nothing to do with the discussion?
Never said there wasnt any literacy problem in some countries around the world especially around africa and sub continent
And if someone starts a thread on the birth rate in Africa and the sub continent then I might post some facts about that.

Each muslim is an indivdual who thinks for her or himself to put them in a category is like putting all "YOU" non muslims in the same one category.
Again I do not know why you find that offensive. Woodrow is one of your fellow Muslims. Glo is one of my fellow non-Muslims. Me and Glo don't always agree, but we are fellow non-Muslims and there is nothing wrong with that. I believe you are reading far too much into my posts that doesn't exist. I never claimed, nor remotely thought, that all Muslims feel the same way or cannot think for themselves and it is ridiculous that I am being put in a position where I have to defend myself on that point.
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Zafran
02-10-2011, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by titus
But what does the literacy rate of Liberia have to do with the discussion and why should I have brought it up?

Is it my responsibility to point out other nations that have bad literacy rates in order to make you somehow feel better when it has nothing to do with the discussion
Maybe if you looked closer the countries such as Afghanistan, pakistan border with India - the african countries that have low literacy rate all have low leverls maybe its a regional problem.
Reply

Dagless
02-10-2011, 09:12 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Myself and some of your fellow Muslims (including Woodrow) have explained some of the reasons that there is a correlation between the level of education of someone and the number of children they have.
The reason people are getting annoyed is because you've stated it like one fact is directly related to the other. A does not cause B. Please post the entire report and lets see.
The report will almost certainly state that people who live in poorer countries have more children because less survive childhood or maybe those in educated countries work longer hours and so have less time for kids. Whatever it is you can be sure that childbirth numbers are not dictated directly by level of education. The point is completely warped and not worth mentioning, which is why those who are skeptical look at your posts with suspicion.
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titus
02-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Whatever it is you can be sure that childbirth numbers are not dictated directly by level of education.
For the most part there is a direct correlation. Let me post this again:



Argue why the correlation exists all you want, but the fact remains that there is a strong correlation between education level and number of children.

If bringing this up offends anyone then that person needs to figure out why they are offended, but don't get mad at the messenger.
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Dagless
02-10-2011, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by titus
For the most part there is a direct correlation. Let me post this again:

Argue why the correlation exists all you want, but the fact remains that there is a strong correlation between education level and number of children.

If bringing this up offends anyone then that person needs to figure out why they are offended, but don't get mad at the messenger.
A correlation does not mean cause and effect which is what you imply. Let me post this again:



Argue all you want but we need to save the planet and help those pirates. The correlations don't lie!!
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جوري
02-10-2011, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
A correlation does not mean cause and effect which is what you imply. Let me post this again:



Argue all you want but we need to save the planet and help those pirates. The correlations don't lie!!
:haha: I love it.. do you think he's beginning to understand like ben ali?

Ben Ali’s final words in his speech to the nation were “I understand you now, I understand you.”

:w:
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titus
02-10-2011, 10:29 PM
A correlation does not mean cause and effect which is what you imply. Let me post this again:
Myself and other posters have given reasons why we believe this correlation exists. Go back and read them. I actually did not comment on the topic until after a few Muslim members already had. Guestfellow commented on the correlation. Woodrow made this comment:

Years ago when more women started getting advanced degrees several studies were made that I can remember, those studies indicated the more education a woman had the less children she had.

It makes sense when you think about it. The more education awoman has usually means the longer she has put off marriage for school, reducing the number of child bearing years she will have after marriage.

A more recent study seems to show this trend is continuing.


Vales Lilly responded by saying:

That is very true!

Which is funny when you consider that later she finds bringing up the correlation to be offensive or denies it exists.

I urge you not to fall into the trap that Vales likes to set in which every topic has to become a Muslim vs. non-Muslim battle. It's like a cancer. When I started this topic it was not my intention, nor was it anyones intention to be negative towards anyone else until she started posting on it attacking me.

In the original post I said they were working on their study on the Christian population next. If I am still around I will post those results when that study is done also. I have no doubt that there will be a strong correlation between education and childbirth in that study too, and it won't be because I want Christians to look "stupid", it will be because the correlation is real and there are reasons for it.
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جوري
02-10-2011, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by titus
That is very true! Which is funny when you consider that later she finds bringing up the correlation to be offensive or denies it exists.

You should quote me in context, you wouldn't find it funny, you'd find yourself in an embarrassing predicament as you so often find yourself when you can't espouse the references you use with some tangible truth!

all the best
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titus
02-10-2011, 10:41 PM
In context you can look at post #18. It is short and can hardly be taken out of context. I will reprint it in its entirety here:

Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
It makes sense when you think about it. The more education awoman has usually means the longer she has put off marriage for school, reducing the number of child bearing years she will have after marriage.
That is very true!
Reply

Dagless
02-10-2011, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Myself and other posters have given reasons why we believe this correlation exists. Go back and read them. I actually did not comment on the topic until after a few Muslim members already had. Guestfellow commented on the correlation. Woodrow made this comment:

Years ago when more women started getting advanced degrees several studies were made that I can remember, those studies indicated the more education a woman had the less children she had.

It makes sense when you think about it. The more education awoman has usually means the longer she has put off marriage for school, reducing the number of child bearing years she will have after marriage.

A more recent study seems to show this trend is continuing.


Vales Lilly responded by saying:

That is very true!

Which is funny when you consider that later she finds bringing up the correlation to be offensive or denies it exists.
I myself tried giving possible examples, but when you first posted it you did not. I also asked you to post the whole report, but you didn't.

Originally Posted by titus
I urge you not to fall into the trap that Vales likes to set in which every topic has to become a Muslim vs. non-Muslim battle. It's like a cancer. When I started this topic it was not my intention, nor was it anyones intention to be negative towards anyone else until she started posting on it attacking me.
I'm hardly new on the board and have seen many of your posts before. There is no question of Muslims vs. Non-Muslims. I stated that correlation does not mean cause and effect. I stand by that.

Originally Posted by titus
In the original post I said they were working on their study on the Christian population next. If I am still around I will post those results when that study is done also. I have no doubt that there will be a strong correlation between education and childbirth in that study too, and it won't be because I want Christians to look "stupid", it will be because the correlation is real and there are reasons for it.
I see no problem with that as long as you post the whole report. If there is correlation then you should state why, ie. stating the steps/reasons in between - this is what any report would do.
Reply

جوري
02-10-2011, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by titus
In context you can look at post #18. It is short and can hardly be taken out of context. I will reprint it in its entirety here:
and that is what dagless is presenting as cause and effect.. something that is elusive to you for some reason!
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titus
02-10-2011, 11:07 PM
I myself tried giving possible examples, but when you first posted it you did not. I also asked you to post the whole report, but you didn't.
There is a link in the original post. You can find the entire report on that site.

I stated that correlation does not mean cause and effect. I stand by that.
I am not the one that brought up the correlation. Nor was the second, the third nor the fourth to bring it up or comment on it or come up with a theory as to why the correlation exists. Do you think those who posted before me are attempting to paint Muslim women as stupid and Westerners as smart? Or just me?

As for cause and effect I think Woodrow had some great comments on possible reasons for the increase in education leading to a decrease in the number of children.

Why do you believe the correlation exists? Or do you simply think it is a huge coincidence?

and that is what dagless is presenting as cause and effect.. something that is elusive to you for some reason!
You seemed to find credence with the length of education and therefore starting child bearing early as a reason for the cause and effect. Have you changed your mind since then?
Reply

Cabdullahi
02-10-2011, 11:08 PM
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جوري
02-10-2011, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by titus
You seemed to find credence with the length of education and therefore starting child bearing early as a reason for the cause and effect. Have you changed your mind since then?

How does my agreement with something brother woodrow has written to do with what you personally conclude or write?
Reply

joedawun
02-10-2011, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by Abdullahii
titus is online now

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I suspect that at some point on your way to 4,723 posts you too had made 666 posts.
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Cabdullahi
02-10-2011, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by joedawun
I suspect that at some point on your way to 4,723 posts you too had made 666 posts.
Thats correct sir!, but the beast can only be from texas....im not from texas

the beast has a cousin he's called George and George once ran for the House of Representatives.


sorry if all of this sounds a bit too coarse and bushy.
Reply

titus
02-11-2011, 02:39 AM
How does my agreement with something brother woodrow has written to do with what you personally conclude or write?
Woodrow gave a plausible explanation for the correlation between education and the number of children women had. You agreed with it.

You then attacked me when I discussed the correlation, and another person said I was trying to make Muslim women look stupid (which is absurd).

That either means you changed your mind or you are a hypocrite simply trying to attack me for anything I post. I lean toward the latter.
Reply

جوري
02-11-2011, 02:43 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Woodrow gave a plausible explanation for the correlation between education and the number of children women had. You agreed with it.

You then attacked me when I discussed the correlation, and another person said I was trying to make Muslim women look stupid (which is absurd).

That either means you changed your mind or you are a hypocrite simply trying to attack me for anything I post. I lean toward the latter.

Woodrow's plausible comment can't be made akin to your vacuous statements and ridiculous links which don't follow from any presented premise.. as for what you lean toward, well that is just your own psychology projecting and I'd say being a hypocrite would require some deliberate thought on your part and I just don't believe you're capable of an independent thought..

all the best
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Pygoscelis
02-11-2011, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Your basically saying muslim women are stupid and western women are smart becasue they can read and write. Futhermore that means that stupid women have more children and smarter women have less.
That actually would make no sense at all and I don't think even an islamophobe would claim that. I do agree with him that women are less educated in those areas of the world he pointed to, but that is likely due to a myriad of factors, wealth being the most pertinent.

It should not surprise anyone that the rich nations of the world have a better educated populace than the poorer.

Another poster here pointed out the cultural factors involved, besides religion. There is definitely a social taboo factor going on regarding women and education in some of these areas. It may have nothing to do with the Quran, but it is certainly part of the the culture.
Reply

Pygoscelis
02-11-2011, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
I also like the way you say YOUR fellow muslim (woodrow) as if your on one group and muslims in another
I totally agree with you on this point. We all need to stop doing that. It happens here constantly. So much so that when I point it out such tribalism people who are wrapped up in it get all upset.
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جوري
02-11-2011, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I totally agree with you on this point. We all need to stop doing that. It happens here constantly. So much so that when I point it out such tribalism people who are wrapped up in it get all upset.

nice exist strategy montezuma ;D ;D ;D
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titus
02-11-2011, 03:13 AM
Woodrow's plausible comment can't be made akin to your vacuous statements and ridiculous links which don't follow from any presented premise
You have yet to refute one fact I have posted. By admitting that Woodrow's comment was plausible then you acknowledge that there is a correlation between education and child bearing. To attack me for making the same point is ridiculous.
Reply

Ramadhan
02-11-2011, 03:14 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
It may have nothing to do with the Quran, but it is certainly part of the the culture.
If you truly believe that it is part of the culture, then why the likes of you keep trying to link Islam with low education in women and high birthrate?
Reply

Pygoscelis
02-11-2011, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Oh my goodness, what is a muslim doing on a Flying Spaghetti Monster website? Have you renounced Islam and felt the glorious touch of his noodley appendage? Welcome brother. Welcome to the faith. Have a meatball on me.
Reply

جوري
02-11-2011, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by titus
You have yet to refute one fact I have posted. By admitting that Woodrow's comment was plausible then you acknowledge that there is a correlation between education and child bearing. To attack me for making the same point is ridiculous.

are you making tautologic expressions to gain some credibility with other forumers? We haven't seen anything by you that is remotely close to woodrow's wisdom even if it is merely to gain favor with others. You come across under-educated and as Dagless pointed out unable to make correlations between cause and effect.

all the best
Reply

titus
02-11-2011, 03:23 AM
You come across under-educated and as Dagless pointed out unable to make correlations between cause and effect.
Oh but I have. So did Woodrow.

It just irks you when a non-Muslim points it out, that is all.
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جوري
02-11-2011, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by titus
Oh but I have. So did Woodrow. It just irks you when a non-Muslim points it out, that is all.

you've done nothing but bore people with your drivel!

all the best
Reply

ardianto
02-11-2011, 09:48 AM
Originally Posted by titus

Country or area and average years of education for women

Afghanistan 5
Bangladesh 8
Iraq 8
Nigeria 8
Pakistan 6

Jordan 13
Indonesia 13
Egypt 11
India 10
Libya 17


USA 17
France 16
UK 17
Netherlands 17
Most people in Indonesia (not only women) study in schools only for 13 years. 1 year in kindergarten, 6 years in elementary school, 3 years in secondary school, 3 years in high school, then work.

That's because many people in Indonesian are poor and study cost in universities and academies is very expensive.

If you think in Muslim communities men and women are not equal in rights to get education and in rights to have a job, it's better if you come to Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei or Singapore. You will surprised when you find that myth is not true.
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
02-11-2011, 09:59 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum

The Muslims of this Forum, how many know about the Cham people? No Googling! :D
Reply

ardianto
02-11-2011, 10:10 AM
Cham people ?.

Never heard.
Reply

جوري
02-11-2011, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Assalaamu Alaikum The Muslims of this Forum, how many know about the Cham people? No Googling!

ahl sham are Palestine/Syria/Lebanon.. is that what you meant?
Reply

titus
02-11-2011, 11:21 AM
If you think in Muslim communities men and women are not equal in rights to get education and in rights to have a job, it's better if you come to Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei or Singapore. You will surprised when you find that myth is not true.
I haven't claimed that there are no equal rights to education in Indonesia, or elsewhere. I was simply posting the average years of education to show the correlation with it and the birth rate.
Reply

Ramadhan
02-11-2011, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
The Muslims of this Forum, how many know about the Cham people? No Googling!

I had to google and wiki :D
Wow!

I never knew that such interesting group of people existed before, and they live in my neighbors!
who knew there are muslims in cambodia!
Reply

Dagless
02-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Oh my goodness, what is a muslim doing on a Flying Spaghetti Monster website? Have you renounced Islam and felt the glorious touch of his noodley appendage? Welcome brother. Welcome to the faith. Have a meatball on me.
Er... do you know how to check which site an image is hosted from? I'm guessing not. That image has been posted all over the net, not only on that one site :)

btw I see you've been on an Islamic site since 2009, have you renounced atheism and become a secret Muslim or Muslim wannabe? :D
Reply

Pygoscelis
02-11-2011, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by Dagless
Er... do you know how to check which site an image is hosted from? I'm guessing not. That image has been posted all over the net, not only on that one site :)
It originated with FSM and is iconic of FSM. Posting it is similar to posting a cross or a star of David.

btw I see you've been on an Islamic site since 2009, have you renounced atheism and become a secret Muslim or Muslim wannabe? :D
I have been a devout pious muslim under cover all along? Didn't you know? :D
Reply

ardianto
02-11-2011, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by naidamar


I had to google and wiki :D
Wow!

I never knew that such interesting group of people existed before, and they live in my neighbors!
who knew there are muslims in cambodia!
You broke the rule ..! No googling ..... !!!!

>
>
>

Just kidding. :)

>
>
>

During 1992-1993, Indonesian military headquarter sent soldiers to Cambodia in UNTAC peace keeping mission. One day a group of Indonesian soldier passed a village in Cambodia. A group of villager stood beside the road and greeted those Indonesian soldiers with "Assalamualaikum !". Indonesian soldiers were surprised, but they thought that greeting was in Cambodian language that heard like Arabic. The villager repeated that greet again, "Assalamualaikum !". Now, indonesian soldiers realized if those villager greet them with "Assalamualaikum", and Indonesian soldiers replied with "Wa'alaikumsalam !".

That was the first time Indonesian people know about Muslim in Cambodia.
Reply

ardianto
02-11-2011, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun
Assalaamu Alaikum

The Muslims of this Forum, how many know about the Cham people? No Googling! :D
Wa'alaikumsalam.

In Indonesia, we call them Champa Muslim.
Reply

Perseveranze
02-11-2011, 03:45 PM
Well, atleast you were born a Muslim, that much is a surity :)
Reply

Al-Mufarridun
02-11-2011, 09:23 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum

Yes, they're called Cham or Champa, They use to have a strong kingdom in Vietnam before they became Muslim centuries ago that was called Champa. Now they mostly live in Cambodia, and some live in Vietnam.

Cham Pictures:












some other of your brethren that you might not have heard of before in this region; :D

Bonan people, Gansu Province, North-West of China







Dongxiang people, Gansu Province, North-West of China










Utsul, Southern Hainan, China


And now a little something for everyone; :D :D

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جوري
02-11-2011, 09:43 PM
what cute girls and boys masha'Allah
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Ramadhan
02-12-2011, 03:10 AM
Mashaallah!

I love seeing how Islam still flourish despite unlikely circumstances in unlikely places!
Reply

Cabdullahi
02-12-2011, 02:49 PM
beautiful!!!
Reply

marwen
02-12-2011, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Mufarridun

is this picture real ? I mean it's a big jump wow ?!!

thx for the pics btw.
Reply

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