for christians : a question about salvation.

[marwen]

I just want to more understand this term. Not intended to make a debate, just need a clarification from my christian mates here or ex-christians or someone who have knowledge about christianity.

I have difficulties with some terminologies and concepts used by christian people what makes it hard for me to understand what they are talking about.

My question is about "Salvation".

Yesterday I was seeing the news on website, and I was attracted by a top banner saying : "Jesus In Tunisia". Dunno how they figured out that I'm living in Tunisia (from my IP adress I guess ). Never heard about that before, I clicked on and got a long text with pictures talking abou Salvation and how Jesus died for me and I should take profit of the salvation otherwise I will be punished by eternal death.

I don't know who makes these texts to ask him directly what he means so I'll post my questions here :

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

[PouringRain]

My question is about "Salvation".

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

1) Basically.... Salvation means being saved from eternal ****ation. Those who are "saved" will be in heaven one day. If you want to get more complex, christians have all sorts of differences in interpretation about who is or is not "saved," what constitutes salvation, etc. Some believe in a OSAS doctrine-- "once saved always saved." Under that doctrine, once an individual accepts that christ is his savior, then the individual is saved. The majority of Christian denominations do NOT teach OSAS. Some teach that salvation can be lost. Some teach that if an individual continues to live in sin following their decision to follow Christ, then they were never saved to begin with. Etc. Some church have a set of acts that one must follow in order to be considered saved (i.e. baptism). Other say that acceptance of Christ is enough. The list goes on.

If you want to make the anology to Islam, in order to better understand it, "salvation" for christian would be like the moment that a muslim pronounces the shahada. At that moment, just as an individual is counted as a muslim, in christianty the repentance of sins and declaration of faith is the moment of "salvation." Just as in Islam, it is the moment that the slate is washed clean and the individual is a new creation, pure, sins washed away.

After that point is where the beliefs separate. Very few teach that moment alone is salvation, and from then on the individual is saved. The Bible speaks of working out ones salvation with fear and trembling. It also speaks of faith without works is dead. And there are a number of other things. But it does say that the law is not what saves man. It is through faith that man is saved.

2) Every christian believes in it, but that does not mean that every "christian" is "saved." No one is born a Christian. Every individual must reach a point in his or her life where they make a decision to accept Christ as savior and follow him. Even those who were raised in church and believe they were just "always saved" or "always a christian" must still reach that point in life of making a decision.

When I say that not every "christian" is "saved" it goes back to what I was talking about a moment ago. The Bible says that there are those who will cry "Lord. Lord" and he will say "I knew you not." There are those, it says, who will say we have cast out demons in your name and prophesied in your name, and he will say "I never knew you." The Bible is clear that not everyone who claims to believe in Jesus will be saved. I'm sure that everyone who reads my post will be able to readily think of at least one individual who claims to be a Christian, yet produces bad fruit. I use the word "fruit," because the Bible tells us we will know them by their fruits. A good tree does not produce bad fruits and a bad tree does not produce good fruits. We all have sinned and have a sin nature, but someone who has truly made a decision to follow Jesus does not delight in iniquity, nor follow after sin.

3) Eternal death/ hell is the punishment of non-believers, because they have chosen to reject God. It is no different than in Islam when they say that those who reject God will be punished in hell. In Christianity, you will get differences of opinions about death, hell, etc. Some will say that unbelievers go to hell for all eternity. Some point to in Revelation where it speaks of the final judgment where even those in hell will be judged again, and then their fate will be sealed (which implies that one could actually not stay in hell for eternity, and could escape it at that time, or at that time would be case forever into the lake of fire). (Perhaps it is similar to the Jewish concept of a purging by fire for a time, but I won't presume to know exactly what the author was thinking of when he wrote it.) Some Christians believe that some Jews will also be saved, others teach not unless they accept Jesus as savior. Overall, the teachings are varied.

Your question asked why "death" is the eternal punishment, and don't Christians believe in hell. The author of the website probably was using "eternal death" to mean "hell." The Bible uses a variety of terms. Sheol, Abbadon, Gehinnom, bottomless pit, lake of fire, etc.

Many Christians simply believe in a heaven and a hell- and an individual goes to one or the other after death. I think the reason most Christians believe this way is just for simplicity's sake. The whole of it all is much more complex. Some believe in a type of soul sleep (in the "grave") until the judgment. Most believe individual's go directly to one or the other.

[marwen]

wow ! a very clear and detailed explanation ! this clarifies things a lot now.
Thank you so much sister PouringRain. that's all what I needed.

[Perseveranze]

Peace,

All Christians get saved for believing Jesus died for their sins and is the son of God. Apparently, Jesus(pbuh) will save them from God's wrath.

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[Ramadhan]

All Christians get saved for believing Jesus died for their sins and is the son of God. Apparently, Jesus(pbuh) will save them from God's wrath.

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

[Unknown Patron]

Jesus is considered to be "True-Man" and "True-God", for only this way would he have been able to die for our sin's.
Put very simply.
He must be 'True-Man' because 'man' alone had invoked the Lord's wraith. At the same time however he must be 'True-God' because no mortal man would ever be able to stand up and satisfy the Lord's anger.
You know the saying it take's one to know one? Yea, only if he was 'True-God' would he be able to take the full weight of mankinds sin's.

You would have to wait and see if a more versed Christian will reply for a more detailed description, because I'm mostly just here for the reading.

[Ramadhan]

Jesus is considered to be "True-Man" and "True-God", for only this way would he have been able to die for our sin's.

Sorry, but flowery as your words are, those words are empty.
Are you making this up?
Did jesus (p) say this or did your priests (alive and dead) tell you this?

he must be 'True-God' because no mortal man would ever be able to stand up and satisfy the Lord's anger.

So does this mean Jesus is not Lord?
What brand of christian are you?
I thought christians believe jesus is Lord/God?

You would have to wait and see if a more versed Christian will reply for a more detailed description, because I'm mostly just here for the reading.

Let me break the news for you,

Since IslamicBoard came to existence, no less than pastors, priests, theologians, nuns, etc from all different brands of christianity have attempted to explain who jesus is according to christians, and sadly, apart from long-winded flowery words, none of us had got nothing.

ironically (and thankfully), many christians who (finally) use their reasons to learn more about Jesus (p) find out that the concept of jesus (p) as God just does not sit very well with our reason, logic, and conscience.

[Perseveranze]

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

Asalaamu Alaikum,

God's wrath on the Day of Judgment is upon sinners

On the Day of Judgment God will judge all people for their sins against Him. He will judge all who have lied, stolen, cheated, lusted, dishonored their parents, etc. He will do this because He is holy and righteous. God must punish the sinner. God cannot and will not ignore the person who has broken His righteous law. The Law is a reflection of the character of God. Therefore, to break God's law is to offend God and deny the holiness of His character. He will be vindicated. He will judge.
The Bible says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). That means that your sins have caused a separation between you and God (Isaiah 59:2) and the result is death (Rom. 6:23) and wrath (Eph. 2:3). The only way to be saved from the wrath of God, is to be saved from it by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 5:1). You must trust in what Jesus did on the cross to forgive you of your sins and not trust anything else, not even your own sincerity or works. It is Jesus and only Jesus who can turn away the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.

The gospel is that Jesus died for sinners on the cross, was buried, and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4). His death was a sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2). This is the only way to be saved.
Jesus is the one who died for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). He is the only way to the God the Father (John 14:6). He alone reveals God (Matt. 11:27). He has all authority in heaven and earth (Matt. 28:18). It is only through Him that you can be saved from God's wrath (Eph. 2:3). He can forgive you of your sin (Luke 5:20; Matt. 9:2). He can remove the guilt that is upon your soul. Jesus can set you free from the bondage of sin that blinds your eyes, weakens your soul, and brings you to despair. He can do this because He bore sin in His body on the cross (1 Peter. 2:24) that those who trust in Him would be saved.
If you are not a Christian, and want to be delivered from the righteous judgment of God upon you due to your sin against Him, then come to the One who died for the sins of the world. Come to the One who died for sinners (Matt. 11:28). Turn from your sins. Believe and trust in Jesus. Receive Jesus, who is God in flesh, who died and rose from the dead (1 Cor. 15:1-4) as your Lord and Savior. Ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins. Receive Christ (John 1:12). Only He can wash you clean from your sins and only Jesus can deliver you from the righteous judgment of a holy and infinite God. Pray to Jesus. Seek Him. Ask Him to save you.
He will.
I would like to note, that the Jesus of Mormonism (the brother of the devil), the Jesus of the Jehovah's Witnesses (an angel made into a man), the Jesus of the New Age (a man in tune with the divine consciousness), etc., cannot save you from your sins. Faith is only as good as the person in whom you put it... the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus is God in flesh, the creator. God is a trinity and Jesus is the second person of the trinity.
If you have prayed and asked Jesus to deliver you from your sins and save you from God's wrath, then please email us at CARM and let us know.

http://carm.org/christianity/answers...-jesus-save-us

I'm sure they confuse themselves over trinity as much as us.

[Ramadhan]

I'm sure they confuse themselves over trinity as much as us.

There's a difference: They love being confused and delude themselves.

We look at the confusion from the outside with pity.
Or sometimes with amusement seeing someone tries to explain trinity and trip all over themselves with many various contradictory bible passages, faulty logic and turned-off reason, and cover it all up with long-winded and flowery words and sentences.

[Pygoscelis]

ummm... isn't jesus (according to christians) God?
so which other god are you talking about?

The Jesus story and sacrifice is made incoherent by the concept of the trinity.

The claim that Jeus is God's only begotten son and stood up for Man and convinced God through his sacrifice that man should be forgiven for his sins, is a claim that I have issues with, but it is at least coherent.

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

[RickLannoye]

Dear Marwen,

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians believe "salvation" means that the right type of Christians will go to Heaven after they die and everyone else will go to Hell.

However, Jesus never, ever taught this, and those who think he did are either very mislead or purposely distorting his message.

Actually, Jesus' message was that God loves ALL, and forgives ALL. Yes, God calls us to repent of our sins, but His response to our sinfulness is not to be infinitely worse to us than all of us have been toward ourselves and each other.

"Salvation," then, really refers to those who have come to the knowledge that God loves them unconditionally, forgives them of all their sins and calls them to imitate God's love and forgiveness in the way they treat others. All people are "saved" in the limited sense that God cares for all, loves all and forgives all, but not every realizes it.

I explain this idea and many others related to it in my book Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell, but I hope my brief comment here is of some help already.

Rick Lannoye

[MustafaMc]

Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell

Your denying that Hell exists does not stop it from being so. What are you doing to stay out of it?

[Ramadhan]

Unfortunately, a lot of Christians believe "salvation" means that the right type of Christians will go to Heaven after they die and everyone else will go to Hell. However, Jesus never, ever taught this, and those who think he did are either very mislead or purposely distorting his message. Actually, Jesus' message was that God loves ALL, and forgives ALL. Yes, God calls us to repent of our sins, but His response to our sinfulness is not to be infinitely worse to us than all of us have been toward ourselves and each other. "Salvation," then, really refers to those who have come to the knowledge that God loves them unconditionally, forgives them of all their sins and calls them to imitate God's love and forgiveness in the way they treat others. All people are "saved" in the limited sense that God cares for all, loves all and forgives all, but not every realizes it. I explain this idea and many others related to it in my book Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There Is No Such Place As Hell, but I hope my brief comment here is of some help already.

Is that meant to be fiction?

Because i'm sure (even if I'm muslim) that your explanation above is definitely not supported by your bible.

Or, as I have drawn conclusion long time ago, it seems every christians are free to make up what they believe ... about anything really, even about God.

[Danah]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

[PouringRain]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

This is one area where Christians differ. Some will tell you that if he is a Christian, then yes he will be saved. Others might say that he is backslidden. Others may say that if he continues in his sinful ways following "salvation" (his decision to follow Christ), and has no desire for change, then he was never saved to begin with.

To repent means to turn away from the sin, so it is not enough to simply ask God for forgiveness-- the man must also turn away from those sins he commits. When a man makes a decision to follow Christ, and he repents of his sins, then he must also turn from the sin and "follow Christ" (in word, deed, etc.). To continue is his sin is not repentance. God is ever forgiving, but he also knows the heart of a man. A man who apologizes with no change, was never apologetic to begin with. We are to "go and sin no more." This does not mean that we are perfect and sinless following salvation. Everyone messes up. But the repentant man, who has made a decision to follow Christ, should be continually striving towards having a right life before God. He will not bear the fruit of the bad tree. He will not walk in iniquity, devise wicked in his heart, etc. The Bible says that if a man so much as looks at a woman with lust, then he has sinned. We are judged not just by our actions, but by our hearts.

With all of that considered, in the scenario you ask about-- a man who continues to sin and hurt others, no he is not saved. If he were "saved" then he would not live a life of sin. He would continually strive to walk in righteousness and live a holy life. Unfortunately, it is common to find those who claim to be a christian in word-- yet their lifestyle is most un-christlike. That is why Jesus said that there are those who will say they have done all these things in Jesus name, and he will say "I knew you not." God knows the hearts of men. We can know them by their fruits. If they are producing bad fruits, then they are not "saved." And the Bible says they will be cast off and throw in the fire.

This doesn't mean that we should point fingers at someone and judge their salvation anytime they do something wrong. We are instructed to go to our brother in love and tell them what they are doing is wrong. If they reject you, you are to take another with you (1 or 2 others) and go to them (like a pastor). Then if they still will not hear you, you bring them before the congregation. If they will not listen then they are to be treated as an outcast. There are other places where the Bible instructs us not to sit with those who are living sinful lives. [There is even scriptural support that if we know our brother is in sin, and we fail to say anything, then we can be held responsible for his sin also.)] There is a time when we can count them out of the fold. But since we are all sinners, we must first go to them in love and show them the error of their ways and allow them the chance to repent.

Most people outside of Christianity look at Christians and they see all this sin and acceptance of sin. Certainly they see churches that accept sin and do things like ordaining homosexual ministers, etc. Not all churches are that way. Those within Christianity know that there are many churches who do not operate that way. I have been in churches that have asked unwed pregnant girls to go before the congregation and apologize for their sin. I have been in churches that will revoke the pastoral ordination of a minister who gets a divorce outside of the accepted reasons in the Bible. Groups, such as the Amish, still practice shunning. I have been in churches that have asked people to leave. Christians can be the most unforgiving towards sin within their congregations.



I hope I answered your question well enough. If not, please let me know. :)

[Danah]

I hope I answered your question well enough. If not, please let me know.

Thanks, yes you did explain your belief very well, now I would like to hear from those who hold the opinion that faith only can lead to salvation.

[truthseeker63]

This is a good thread.

[PouringRain]

Thanks, yes you did explain your belief very well, now I would like to hear from those who hold the opinion that faith only can lead to salvation.

I just wanted to point out that even in the above view it is still faith that we are saved by, not works. The works, the righteous living, the putting away sin, etc.-- all these things and more should arise out of a life of faith. But at the core of it, it is only the faith that brings the salvation.


I do agree with you that it would be nice to have others come share their beliefs. I have seen on other forums, and known in life, too many Christians who believe that all you need to do is accept Jesus and that is the end. Even within those you have differing beliefs. I could share some of these with you, but quite honestly you might get more from reading them yourself. :)

[Danah]

I just wanted to point out that even in the above view it is still faith that we are saved by, not works. The works, the righteous living, the putting away sin, etc.-- all these things and more should arise out of a life of faith. But at the core of it, it is only the faith that brings the salvation.


I do agree with you that it would be nice to have others come share their beliefs. I have seen on other forums, and known in life, too many Christians who believe that all you need to do is accept Jesus and that is the end. Even within those you have differing beliefs. I could share some of these with you, but quite honestly you might get more from reading them yourself. :)

In your view its the faith that lead a person to act righteously, so work and faith are working together well. While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

[glo]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

I somehow don't think the difference between the Islamic and Christian view is quite as great as some people think.

Both Muslims and Christians would argue that a belief in God is essential - am I right?

I think both would also argue that the faith and commitment we have in God should be reflected in our conduct and attitude towards others.
As Pouring Rain says, there may be differences amongst Christians as to whether faith alone guarantees eternal life - but I have yet to meet a Christian who thinks that all you have to say is 'I believe' ... and then you can continue in your sinful ways as before ... :hmm:

I think the overriding concept is that when we start to believe in God, understand his great gift to us and commit ourselves to submit to him and serve him, then that process should lead to a change within us and give us a desire to be better, kinder, more gracious people.
And with the help of God we can!

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.

That doesn't mean that becoming a Christian or a Muslim makes us perfect people (although I have heard accounts from both faiths of people changing quite dramatically very suddenly!), but it should be the start of a process of letting God work within us and change us (even if it may be a bumpy ride at times ...)

Would both Muslims and Christians agree to that kind of concept?

[Danah]

I somehow don't think the difference between the Islamic and Christian view is quite as great as some people think.

Both Muslims and Christians would argue that a belief in God is essential - am I right?

Yeah believe in God is essential but they differ in the work part. All Muslims do believe that work without faith is nothing, the same as faith without work is nothing.

I do agree with what you said about having faith in God should be reflected on our conducts and actions in our lives. You might not met any of those who believe in faith only as a way to salvation but I am sure there are some who follow Paul's view of salvation. I am looking forward to read what Pouring Rain will share with me.

[Wyatt]

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

:amin:

I take Islam's side when it comes to views about Jesus. The Christian view has come to be, "praise Jesus, pray to Jesus, worship Jesus," rather than God. And, claiming he is God, why would he be considered "God's son" in the Bible? And as far as I know, it's never mentioned directly in the Bible that Jesus is meant to be the personification of God.

As well, if God were down here, how could he be watching from up there? :p I don't think God would appreciate such idolatry.

[glo]

Yeah believe in God is essential but they differ in the work part. All Muslims do believe that work without faith is nothing, the same as faith without work is nothing.

I do agree with what you said about having faith in God should be reflected on our conducts and actions in our lives. You might not met any of those who believe in faith only as a way to salvation but I am sure there are some who follow Paul's view of salvation. I am looking forward to read what Pouring Rain will share with me.

Hi Danah

I found this site (a Roman Catholic source), which you might find interesting.
It argues that although Paul seems to emphasize FAITH as the means for salvation and James seems to stress the importance of DEEDS, both in fact share the same opinion that BOTH faith and deeds are needed.

Many readers of the New Testament misinterpret both Paul and James, thus concluding that their statements about faith and works contradict each other. That is simply not true! There are differences in emphasis, but no contradictions in teaching, if one understands both properly.

Paul and James agree that both "faith" and "works" are essential parts of Christian life, although they have different roles. Paul and James also agree that salvation ultimately comes from God and from Jesus Christ, not from us or anything that we do.

However, since Paul and James wrote to different audiences in different situations about different problems, their letters have different presuppositions and different emphases. To combat the opinion of some people that circumcision and other "works of the law" were necessary for Gentile converts to early Christianity, Paul stresses that the foundation of our salvation is the death of Jesus, not the laws of Moses. To combat the opinion of other people that professing faith in God is enough for salvation, James stresses that Christians must put their faith into concrete action.

[...]

The common but incorrect interpretation, leading to an apparent contradiction between Paul and James:

Paul supposedly said: Justification comes not by our good works, but by our faith in Jesus alone.
James supposedly said: Justification comes by our good works, not by our faith in God.

Errors with these interpretations:

1. Paul is not talking about "good works" in the sense of "charitable acts"; rather, he says "works of the Law" (Gal 2:16; 3:2-12; Rom 3:28), which refers to the Jewish/Mosaic laws on circumcision, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, etc.
When James says "works," he means acts of charity = care for widows, orphans & the poor, love for neighbors, etc. (James 1:27; 2:8; 2:15-16)

2. Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).

3. Paul is not talking primarily about our "faith in Jesus," but rather the "faith of Jesus" in God (i.e., Jesus' own trusting in God; see Gal 2:16, 20; Rom 3:22, 26); based on this foundation, our faith in God/Jesus is a necessary (but secondary) response.
In contrast, James does mean people’s faith, primarily believing in God (2:23) but also believing in Jesus (2:1).

4. Paul does not presuppose the same definition of "faith" as James does; for Paul, "faith" means "trusting" God, or "entrusting oneself" to God's plans (Rom 4:3-22).
For James, "faith" is more of an intellectual assent to theological truths, e.g., "believing that God is one" (2:19; even demons can "believe" in God's existence).

5. Paul did not write the word "alone" in Rom 3:28; Martin Luther was the one who added the word "allein" in his German Bible translation.
James does not write "by works alone" but stresses "not by faith alone"; he maintains that both have to go together.

This, to me, probably sums up the faith/deeds issue the best:

Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).


How do you, as a Muslim, feels about those statements? Can you relate to them or even agree with them?

[Ramadhan]

but I have yet to meet a Christian who thinks that all you have to say is 'I believe' ... and then you can continue in your sinful ways as before ...

I'm surprised you havent met those christians.
Actually, you might find those christians in your neck of woods:
There are pastors and ministers in england who give blessings to gay marriage, in church no less!

So we can draw conclusions that even those ministers believe that christians can continue in their sinful ways and be saved (and blessed!).

[PouringRain]

While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

I always wonder that also, and to be quite honest, their "logic" never makes much sense to me. But I will share the attitudes and things I have heard said.

I first wanted to say that I don't know that there is any church that teachings that an individual needs only to believe and nothing else. I could be wrong-- as I have not attended nor looked at the philosophy of every church in existence. But, I think all churches preach a gospel of righteous living, regardless of what they believe about eternal security or the ability to fall away. The very definition of being a Christian is to be a "follower of Christ." Just as muslims try to follow the examples of the prophet, a christian should strive to follow the teachings of Christ. If there is any church out there that actually teaches that individuals only need to "be saved" and can live as they wish otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

That being said, churches may not preach it, but there are certainly many christians that believe in that manner. One might ask how someone could believe he could live as he wishes, when churches do not teach it. The answer is quite simple-- not all who profess to be a Christian actually go to church. I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who are christian yet never attend church. Also popular is the ever growing number of independently run churches that have no oversight and no affiliation. There is an individual on another forum I am on who professes to be a Christian, yet openly admits that he has never stepped foot in a church in his life. Yes, it is possible for someone to be a Christian and never attend church, but I think the real question is what is that individual doing to grow in his faith? There was someone recently who professed to still be a "baby Christian" after having made a decision to follow Christ close to 40 years earlier. This means that for close to 40 years the individual has probably done absolutely nothing to grow is his faith. I would probably be remiss to speculate all the things he has not done (or done). Could you imagine someone taking Shahada and then never cracking open a qur'an, not praying, never listening to a lecture, nor reading a book, never setting foot inside a masjid (nor islamic center, nor any other place as these), not taking any notice as to halal eating, etc. That is what some of these people are like.

I wanted to point these things out, because when we see individuals who claim to hold certain beliefs it is important to realize that these beliefs may not be at all representative of Biblical teachings.

One eternal salvation belief that is held by some churches does say that christians can not lose their salvation. For the most part, churches who hold that view would say that the individual who continues to live sinfully (as your example) was never saved in the first place.

The attitudes and beliefs I have heard espoused by individuals go kinda like this....

"Jesus loves you and that is all you need to know."
"We are no longer under the law..... we have been freed from the law..... Jesus fulfilled the law"
"All sin can be forgiven (except the unpardonable sin), and we are forgiven as many times as we ask."
"Since no man is perfect, we can not be expected to be perfect."
"My sins have already been forgiven when Jesus died. The payment was already made for them."

You can see where the above attitudes can lead to people believing they can do anything they want and never lose their salvation. Everything we are instructed to do in the Bible becomes excused by one or more of the above statements. Since "we" do not need to "do" anything to "earn" salvation (it is a free gift) then all "we" have to do is just accept it and live under God's grace.

I wish I could explain better why they believe that way, or how it is they come to believe that way. As I said, I do not quite understand it myself. If you get into a discussion with them they will simply go in circles.

[PouringRain]

I'm surprised you havent met those christians.

I'm not surprised that she hasn't met them. Many of them don't advertise it, and you wouldn't know that they believed it unless you questioned them about their lifestyle. Many of those individuals don't even go to church. I see them significantly more on-line that off-line.

[MustafaMc]

I know Christians who have asked, "Are you saved?" and "If you died tonight, would you go to Heaven or to Hell?" To what extent are Christians on this forum completely assured of their salvation? Do Christians have any fear that maybe their lives don't really measure up to an minimum acceptable level? If they can say of someone else that is obviously sinful, "They weren't really saved to begin with." how can they be so self assured about their own lives before God?

[PouringRain]

I know Christians who have asked, "Are you saved?" and "If you died tonight, would you go to Heaven or to Hell?" To what extent are Christians on this forum completely assured of their salvation? Do Christians have any fear that maybe their lives don't really measure up to an minimum acceptable level? If they can say of someone else that is obviously sinful, "They weren't really saved to begin with." how can they be so self assured about their own lives before God?

I will answer for myself personally, as I can not answer for anyone else. :)

I know that I am a miserable creature who has done much wrong in life. God spared me from death on more than one occasion, and I have often felt there must be a purpose even though that purpose has always eluded me. Perhaps I am too dense, or too stubborn. No matter how far I have run from God, he never stopped chasing me. I do not feel that I have any assurance of salvation. I continually strive to know God more, to learn more, to live as God would want me to-- set apart for him. I will never be perfect, nor will I ever have all knowledge. Nothing I will ever do on this earth could ever measure up to God in his infinite goodness, righteousness, and perfection in all ways. I am nothing. Yet even in my nothingness he felt I was important enough to love. All I can do is trust him.

I do not live for Heaven or some promise of salvation in the afterlife. I have been at death's door and I have no fear of death. I have no fear of what happens to me after death. God will do what God does, regardless of what I believe. If God chooses to put me in the fire to purge me, then I am fully accepting of it. He has already brought me into the fire more times than any individual should have to go. If God chooses to place me there after death, then I am fully accepting of his decision. Knowing this, and as much as he places me in the fire on earth, I will not ever stop seeking him or seeking his will in my life. Knowing that I will never be perfect nor have perfect understanding-- I will never stop working towards being what I should be and learning. Everything that I am and have belongs to God. He holds my every breath.

[MustafaMc]

I know that I am a miserable creature who has done much wrong in life. ... I do not feel that I have any assurance of salvation.... I am nothing. Yet even in my nothingness he felt I was important enough to love. All I can do is trust him.

You reminded me of the song, "Amazing Grace" and I agree that we can't do enough to be confident of being protected from the Hellfire. Yet my perception as a former Baptist is that their faith for salvation in what Jesus did on the cross, hence their concept of 'being saved' as in the past tense their salvation being a 'done deal'. It seems there is nearly as much ambiguity over 'faith' vs 'works' for salvation as there is over the 'humanity' vs 'divinity' of Jesus' nature (alayhi salam).

I do not live for Heaven or some promise of salvation in the afterlife. I have been at death's door and I have no fear of death. I have no fear of what happens to me after death.

My understanding of the Hellfire is that it is a terrible punishment that I pray for forgiveness and to be protected from punishment there. I am indeed fearful of Allah's (subhana wa ta ala) wrath and his punishment. I do live for Heaven and that is my final goal realizing that I can't do enough that I can be assured of salvation. In Islam our intentions define the merit of our deeds. Unfortunately, I am unable to judge my own heart with regards to the purity of intention for even the simplest good deed I may do. I am completely at His Mercy. From what you wrote I see some agreement with my beliefs.

[PouringRain]

You reminded me of the song, "Amazing Grace" and I agree that we can't do enough to be confident of being protected from the Hellfire. Yet my perception as a former Baptist is that their faith for salvation in what Jesus did on the cross, hence their concept of 'being saved' as in the past tense their salvation being a 'done deal'. It seems there is nearly as much ambiguity over 'faith' vs 'works' for salvation as there is over the 'humanity' vs 'divinity' of Jesus' nature (alayhi salam).

Baptists believe in eternal security for the believer. They are one of those groups who would say that the individual was never saved to begin with if he lived as Danah asked about earlier in the thread. Yes, I agree with you when you speak of their belief in salvation in the past tense as a done deal. There are a great many things I disagree with in Baptist doctrine.

My understanding of the Hellfire is that it is a terrible punishment that I pray for forgiveness and to be protected from punishment there. I am indeed fearful of Allah's (subhana wa ta ala) wrath and his punishment. I do live for Heaven and that is my final goal realizing that I can't do enough that I can be assured of salvation. In Islam our intentions define the merit of our deeds. Unfortunately, I am unable to judge my own heart with regards to the purity of intention for even the simplest good deed I may do. I am completely at His Mercy. From what you wrote I see some agreement with my beliefs.

I agree with things you wrote also, especially when you said that you are unable to judge your own heart. We humans are notoriously poor at judging the intentions of our hearts. We are even poorer at judging the intentions of others.

I realize that I differ from the vast majority of individuals with regard to my lack of fear from the hellfires and my striving towards Heaven. Most people would abandon God altogether if they had no hope of the hereafter. I honestly can't explain to you how I can have a total peace even at the thought of being placed in the fire. I often say it is because I have been at death's door on more than one occasion in the past and because of all the hell on earth I have lived through-- but to be honest it must be more than that, and I can only give God credit for my peace. He has broken me again and again.

You have to understand that my view of Satan is also much different than most Christians..... and even different than Muslims. BUt this thread is not about me and my beliefs. :giggling: I normally try and give generalized answers and not share my own personal views at all. :phew

[MustafaMc]

PouringRain, you have an interesting view. I have heard (or read) some one say that a faith based on fear of Hell and/or a desire for Heaven is a shallow faith. I am sure that prophets and saints over the years had a much deeper level of faith than the common people. In Islam, there are those who receive their life books in the left hand from behind their backs and are sent to Hell, those who receive their life books in their right hands and are allowed to enter Paradise and then the third category are those who are brought near to Allah (swt) such as the prophets and truly pious saints.

[glo]

I will answer for myself personally, as I can not answer for anyone else. :)

I know that I am a miserable creature who has done much wrong in life. God spared me from death on more than one occasion, and I have often felt there must be a purpose even though that purpose has always eluded me. Perhaps I am too dense, or too stubborn. No matter how far I have run from God, he never stopped chasing me. I do not feel that I have any assurance of salvation. I continually strive to know God more, to learn more, to live as God would want me to-- set apart for him. I will never be perfect, nor will I ever have all knowledge. Nothing I will ever do on this earth could ever measure up to God in his infinite goodness, righteousness, and perfection in all ways. I am nothing. Yet even in my nothingness he felt I was important enough to love. All I can do is trust him.

I do not live for Heaven or some promise of salvation in the afterlife. I have been at death's door and I have no fear of death. I have no fear of what happens to me after death. God will do what God does, regardless of what I believe. If God chooses to put me in the fire to purge me, then I am fully accepting of it. He has already brought me into the fire more times than any individual should have to go. If God chooses to place me there after death, then I am fully accepting of his decision. Knowing this, and as much as he places me in the fire on earth, I will not ever stop seeking him or seeking his will in my life. Knowing that I will never be perfect nor have perfect understanding-- I will never stop working towards being what I should be and learning. Everything that I am and have belongs to God. He holds my every breath.

That's beautiful, Pouring Rain.
May God bless you abundantly! (It sounds like he already does :statisfie)

[Woodrow]

I just want to more understand this term. Not intended to make a debate, just need a clarification from my christian mates here or ex-christians or someone who have knowledge about christianity.

I have difficulties with some terminologies and concepts used by christian people what makes it hard for me to understand what they are talking about.

My question is about "Salvation".

Yesterday I was seeing the news on website, and I was attracted by a top banner saying : "Jesus In Tunisia". Dunno how they figured out that I'm living in Tunisia (from my IP adress I guess ). Never heard about that before, I clicked on and got a long text with pictures talking abou Salvation and how Jesus died for me and I should take profit of the salvation otherwise I will be punished by eternal death.

I don't know who makes these texts to ask him directly what he means so I'll post my questions here :

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?
2) does every christian believe in it ?
3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

The answers may differ depending on which denomination you ask.

1) When I was a Roman Catholic I would have said that was dieing while in a state of Grace.

2) Some denominations believe in once saved, always saved. Roman Catholics believe that a person can fall out of grace and die when not in a State of Grace which will mean going to the hellfire, even though they may have been in a state of grace many times in the past.

3) When I was Catholic I would have said any person of any faith can die in a state of grace provided they sincerely believed they were obeying God and had repented for their sins.

[MustafaMc]

1) What is the right definition/meaning of salvation ?

From my perspective of having grown up as a Baptist, salvation is achieved by believing Jesus (as) is the Son of God, that he died on the cross as an atoning sacrifice for your sins, and that he was raised from the dead. If one believes that, then he is saved by accepting Jesus as his personal Savior. Quoting from a Baptist website one becomes saved by saying, "I acknowledge I am a sinner in need of a Savior ... I believe in my heart that God raised Jesus from the dead ... I confess Jesus as my Lord and my God ... I receive Jesus as my Savior forever." To accept Jesus as your savior you would then pray something like, "Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I do not deserve eternal life. But, I believe You died and rose from the grave to make me a new creation and to prepare me to dwell in your presence forever. Jesus, come into my life, take control of my life, forgive my sins and save me. I am now placing my trust in You alone for my salvation and I accept your free gift of eternal life."

Notice that for a Christian the focus is entirely on Jesus (as) and that the Father part of the Trinity is quite neglected. For them Jesus and God are the same thing.

2) does every christian believe in it ?

I am afraid that I can't speak for every Christian as their beliefs are very varied across denominations.

3) Why/is eternal death the punishment of no-christians ( or people who are not saved) ? Do christians not believe in Hell as an eternal punishment ?

Baptist very much believe in the Hellfire and for them the only way to avoid it is to accept the free gift of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Since the only way to be cleansed from sin is by 'being washed in the blood of Jesus', that is the only means that one can enter Heaven for God is Holy and He can't be in the presence of sin. They do not believe that God can simply forgive sin without an atoning sacrifice being paid and the only acceptable sacrifice was that of Jesus on the cross.

[MustafaMc]

I realize that I differ from the vast majority of individuals with regard to my lack of fear from the hellfires and my striving towards Heaven. Most people would abandon God altogether if they had no hope of the hereafter.

PouringRain, it seems that you have no personal concern for being saved from the Hellfire and that you quite willingly submit to what God has decreed for you. Do you likewise have no concern for the salvation of others?

As a Muslim I feel a sense of responsibility to share the message of Islamic monotheism and I have a desire to see others share my faith and to be saved from eternal punishment. I believe the Quran 3:85, "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."

[PouringRain]

PouringRain, it seems that you have no personal concern for being saved from the Hellfire and that you quite willingly submit to what God has decreed for you. Do you likewise have no concern for the salvation of others?

As a Muslim I feel a sense of responsibility to share the message of Islamic monotheism and I have a desire to see others share my faith and to be saved from eternal punishment. I believe the Quran 3:85, "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."

I have a great concern for others. I can't say "for their salvation," but that is because: 1) if I am not assured of my own, then it would be wrong of me to assure others of theirs, 2) I don't expect others to believe as I do, nor do I believe that what i believe is the only absolute truth. The only truth is God-- he is the Truth. Beyond that, there are many things that I believe are unimportant. But that is another topic, so I won't go into it here.

My concern for others is very great. I often feel extremely deeply for others. I sat in church one day and there was a family in front of me hurting. As I watched the young teen daughter stand there fighting back tears, I couldn't stop myself from crying for her-- and I didn't even know what this family was going through, nor had I ever met them before. I get to where I am thankful we do not get news, because it is just so depressing and sad-- all of it. My heart breaks for every person out there. There was once a time in my life that I could not cry if I tried, but now I could not make myself stop if I tried.

My deep emotions are not limited to empathy. I feel very deeply love for others as well. A very pure love. I wish for every human to know God, and to have a right relationship with him. Unfortunately, I don't believe it will happen. I am both idealist and realist in that respect. I help all I can, and I wipe my feet on the door mat of those I can not. Rarely in life do we see the fruits of our labor, and I labor not for myself. Most of those I help are strangers to me. Sadly, I believe there are too many people in this life who are so lost that they can never be found. In this way, I am a bit jaded, as I believe that some people are simply evil. Too long I spent believing that all could be reached.

I stopped allowing myself to be surrounded by poisonous people years ago. I can not sit in the company of the blasphemer, hoping that one day he will know God. It would destroy me, because of how deeply the hurt that I feel becomes. I know from experience, and there are people in my past who I still feel such deep sorrow for, but I know they are beyond reach. All I can do is pray for people like that.

Unlike you, I don't believe that someone must believe as I do or they will be saved. I believe that Jesus provided a way of salvation, and was the messiah. I believe in One God. But I don't believe that religion saves a man-- not any religion. I am a Christian, because I am a follower of Christ and his teachings-- not because I believe it is the "right" religion. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as acceptable and I believe there are individuals within all who will be saved, but also many in all who will be lost-- and are lost. My desire is for individuals to know God, and have a right relationship with him.

[MustafaMc]

Unlike you, I don't believe that someone must believe as I do or they will be saved. I believe that Jesus provided a way of salvation, and was the messiah. I believe in One God. But I don't believe that religion saves a man-- not any religion. I am a Christian, because I am a follower of Christ and his teachings-- not because I believe it is the "right" religion. I accept Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as acceptable and I believe there are individuals within all who will be saved, but also many in all who will be lost-- and are lost. My desire is for individuals to know God, and have a right relationship with him.

Thank you for your reply. I would be interested in hearing your answers below if you are comfortable in doing so.

What is your view of the 'way of salvation' that Jesus (as) provided?

Is your concept of One God a Trinitarian or Unitarian one? As a Christian, how does Jesus (as) fit into your concept of God?

I do not pretend to know how Allah (swt) will judge the Christians and the Jews, but I stand by the ayat I quoted above. Another ayat quotes Jesus replying to Allah regarding his followers in Quran 5:118, "If You punish them, lo! they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them (lo! they are Your slaves). Lo! You, only You, are the Mighty, the Wise."

As for me I believe the Islamic articles of faith and I try to follow the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) in how I live my life and worship my Creator. For my salvation I hope in the Mercy of Allah (swt) and I pray for His forgiveness.

[Hiroshi]

PouringRain, it seems that you have no personal concern for being saved from the Hellfire and that you quite willingly submit to what God has decreed for you. Do you likewise have no concern for the salvation of others?

As a Muslim I feel a sense of responsibility to share the message of Islamic monotheism and I have a desire to see others share my faith and to be saved from eternal punishment. I believe the Quran 3:85, "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers."

Surah 2:62 says also: "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This contradicts Surah 3:85. Which verse is true and which is not?

[Woodrow]

Surah 2:62 says also: "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This contradicts Surah 3:85. Which verse is true and which is not?

Both are true, no contradiction there. As the people of the book Christians, Jews, and Sabians will receive their just rewards, but that does not mean it will be Jannah. they may receive their rewards while alive and still face the Hellfire after death.

Also the true People of the Book, prior to the revelations being lost, did follow the true revelations and will see Jannah as they are those "whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

[MustafaMc]

Hiroshi, you ask a fair question. Brother Woodrow is more knowledgeable than I am and he provided a good response.

I would like to quote a translation of the Quran that I like to use, "Indeed, those who believe 'in Islam', and those of Jewry, and the Christians and the Sabians-whoever 'among them truly' believes in God and 'in the coming Judgment of' the Last Day and works righteousness-shall have their reward with their lord; and there shall be no fear upon them 'when they assemble for Judgment'. Nor shall they grieve 'over the life of this world'. The parts in 'single quotes' are interpretations of the meaning and are not direct word-for-word translation from the Arabic.

It is interesting that this very ayat is exactly repeated at 5:69 where it is preceded by, "Say: O People of the Scripture! You stand on nothing, until you uphold 'the Commandments of' the Torah and the Evangel and what has been sent down to you from your Lord 'in the Quran'. Yet, assuredly, 'O Prophet,' what has been sent down to you from your Lord shall increase many of them in transgression and unbelief. So do not grieve over a disbelieving people." Notice the part I have underlined where it calls them a "disbelieving people" immediately preceding the next ayat, "Indeed, those who believe..."

In 5:70-71 the Jews are chastised for their disobedience and in 4:46 it says regarding the Jews "... Moreover, they say 'of this Quran': We have heard, but we disobey!..." Again in 5:82 the Quran says, "You shall assuredly find that of all people the severest in enmity against those who believe are the Jews..."

In 5:72-75 the Christians are chastised as unbelievers for example in ayat 72, "'And as to the Christians': Very truly they have disbelieved who say: Indeed, God, Himself, is the Messiah, son of Mary, while the Messiah 'himself' said: O Children of Israel: Worship God, my Lord and your Lord..."

I hope to not offend anyone, but I understand from these passages that "those who believe ... and works righteousness" does NOT apply to those who are disobedient (Jews) nor to those who disbelieve (Christians), but Allah (swt) knows best the meaning. Yet the door of forgiveness is open per 5:74 "Will they not, then, repent to God and seek His forgiveness, while God is All-forgiving, Mercy-giving?"

[Hiroshi]

Both are true, no contradiction there.

A footnote to Surah 2:62 in my version by Hilali and Khan says: “This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur’an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85”.

If the two verses are in agreement why does this say that one verse abrogates and cancels the other?

[Danah]

I am sorry for not replying to those who are expecting commets from me. The Internet in my laptop is not working and I am only here via a mobile device. I hope I will find a way to fix it tomorrow morning.

[MustafaMc]

This, to me, probably sums up the faith/deeds issue the best:

Paul is not opposed to "good works" or "charitable actions"; he sees them as necessary consequences (although not the foundation) of authentic Christian living (see Gal 5–6; Rom 12–15).
Conversely, James is not opposed to faith; he presupposes it, and then stresses that authentic faith must be put into action (James 2:14-26).


How do you, as a Muslim, feels about those statements? Can you relate to them or even agree with them?

Glo, I can agree with those statements, but for a Muslim I have some prescribed "good works" such as salah, sawm, zakat and hajj that are required, not optional, for me to fulfill. Of course, without faith those works are in vain, but for that matter who without faith would fulfill these duties? Hence, the Quran has many promises of Gardens of Paradise for those who believe and do good deeds as both are required. Beyond what is required there are optional good deeds. There is a hadith that shows that Allah's (swt) math regarding deeds is exceedingly generous, merciful and gracious:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet narrating about his Lord said, "Allah ordered that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed how. If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (intend 1 deed > do 0 deed = 1 reward or 1>0=1); and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him with Him from ten to seven hundred times to many more times (1>1=10 to 700): and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed with Him (-1>0=1), and if he intended to do a bad deed and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (-1>-1=-1)." (My allegorical math in parenthesis)

[Danah]

There are pastors and ministers in england who give blessings to gay marriage, in church no less!

So we can draw conclusions that even those ministers believe that christians can continue in their sinful ways and be saved (and blessed!).

^That post can be a good example for our discussion topic here. Its as if they are saying: "as long as you are having belief in Jesus then worry not about anything else"

It argues that although Paul seems to emphasize FAITH as the means for salvation and James seems to stress the importance of DEEDS, both in fact share the same opinion that BOTH faith and deeds are needed.
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How do you, as a Muslim, feels about those statements? Can you relate to them or even agree with them?

Any reader will wonder how both of them (Paul and James) was plainly stressing on his opinion (work & faith) while strongly denying the other one, yet they claim that they are both share the same opinion?

See here, its very clear for anyone read it, please don't tell me its metaphorical meaning or something:

Romans 3:28 (NIV84)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

While we see in the other hand:

James 2:17–18 (NIV84)
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.


James 2:14 (NIV84)
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

"My sins have already been forgiven when Jesus died. The payment was already made for them."

now you mentioned it! Thanks for reminding me to ask about something I always thought about :):
For Christians to know that there sins have been already forgiven when Jesus died, yet they still have to follow a strict righteous way of life, doesn't that make the "death or crucifixion" of Jesus go in vain?? its just as if Jesus did nothing for them if they will end up working hard to be saved! How do Christians see this?

I hope you got what I meant here

P.S, thanks for your detailed imputs

[Danah]

Surah 2:62 says also: "Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

This contradicts Surah 3:85. Which verse is true and which is not?

A footnote to Surah 2:62 in my version by Hilali and Khan says: “This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur’an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85”.

If the two verses are in agreement why does this say that one verse abrogates and cancels the other?

Your second quote is actually answering your first one. They are stressing the same thing but in two different cases.

The first verse was talking about those who believed in Allah and the last day before Allah sent Mohammad to call for the final message of monotheism. Its for those who believed in the right way of Allah regardless of their religious backgrounds as long as they followed the way of all prophets sent by Allah without being fabricated of corrupted by humans. The verse said whoever repented and followed the path of righteousness and monotheism that all prophets called too then he will be saved.

While the next verse came to abrogated the first one, saying that after Allah sent Mohammad (peace be upon him) to call people to worship the only one God then there will be no other religion accepted as all of those religions were corrupted and changed.

I hope it answered your question.

[Woodrow]

A footnote to Surah 2:62 in my version by Hilali and Khan says: “This Verse (and Verse 5:69), mentioned in the Qur’an should not be misinterpreted by the reader as mentioned by Ibn Abbas (Tafsir At-Tabari) that the provision of this Verse was abrogated by the Verse 3:85”.

If the two verses are in agreement why does this say that one verse abrogates and cancels the other?

Because one statement abrogates another does not mean they contradict each other. It often times means the newer one completes the first as it does in this case.

[Sol Invictus]

Because one statement abrogates another does not mean they contradict each other. It often times means the newer one completes the first as it does in this case.

i have some trouble agreeing to the above. while one may call this completion (and i suppose that given one's perspective, this is perfectly alright), i doubt that it can be said that the statements are not contradictory. that is, they cannot be held at the same time hence why the abrogation. so while i don't necessarily disagree with the term that you have chosen to use, i do think that to deny that the two statements are in opposition to one another is to commit an error.

[Danah]

Because one statement abrogates another does not mean they contradict each other. It often times means the newer one completes the first as it does in this case.

Exactly, the same as the aayah that prohibited praying while being drunk was abrogated by the aayah that prohibited drinking Alcohol completely not only in case of praying but in all cases and times.

[Woodrow]

i have some trouble agreeing to the above. while one may call this completion (and i suppose that given one's perspective, this is perfectly alright), i doubt that it can be said that the statements are not contradictory. that is, they cannot be held at the same time hence why the abrogation. so while i don't necessarily disagree with the term that you have chosen to use, i do think that to deny that the two statements are in opposition to one another is to commit an error.

Peace,

It is a question of perspective. If you believe the Jews, Christians and Sabians spoken of in the first are the same as those in the second, then you are correct. That would be a contradiction.

But if you believe as we do that the original Jews, Christians and Sabians did follow true scripture, did submit to God(swt) and as such followed Islam. Making the first statement true. This had to be abrogated as the first only applied to the past and The People of the Book had either lost or corrupted the original scriptures.

Or in simple words. the first was applicable to the past, the second is applicable for the present and future. Not contradictory as 2 different groups of people are spoken of.

[Grace Seeker]

The Jesus story and sacrifice is made incoherent by the concept of the trinity.

The claim that Jeus is God's only begotten son and stood up for Man and convinced God through his sacrifice that man should be forgiven for his sins, is a claim that I have issues with, but it is at least coherent.

But if Jesus IS God, then the claim is that God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind (about man's salvation), and not only do I take issue with the claim, but it is completely incoherent.

Pygo, I agree with you that to say "God sacrificed himself to himself to convince himself to change his own mind" is incoherent. That's why it is not what is actually taught by Christianity. Those Christians who speak thusly are themselves confused with regard to the great doctrines of the Church regarding salvation. Since you are a reader, I bid you to read two helpful books on this subject:

The Atonement Debate: Papers from the London symposium on the theology of the atonement, contributions by Steve Chalke, Chris Wright, I. Howard Marshal, and Joel Green (Derek Tidball, Daivdi Hilborn, and Justin Thacker, general editors).

Salvation and the Cross, by David A Brondos

Over the course of time, Christians have actually expressed our understanding of the mechanism of salvation in a variety of different ways. What you wrote above comes most closely to being expressed by those who would hold to the Penal Substitution theory generally creditted to Anselm. And while that is the dominant view today, especially among Protestants, for a 1000 years before Anselm other views were dominant and many of those are still expressed today. The thing a non-Christian needs to understand when reading these view, is that they are not (or at least should not be seen) as in competition with one another. One is not right, thereby declaring all others wrong. They at best help to inform our thinking and understanding of what it is that scripture is saying. But scripture, not these writings of theologians, is the source of truth. The job of the theologian is to help clarify that which might remain unclear in the reader's mind after reading the scripture. If he doesn't do that, then find a theologian that does. So, if the penal substitution theory doesn't make clear what it is that you read in scripture as to how God works, then put Anselm and Luther down and instead pick up a real classic like Gregory Nyssa or a modern writer like N.T. Wright.

[Grace Seeker]

What if there is a Christian who truly love and believe in Jesus as his eternal savior and God, yet he is still sinning and hurting people! How such person will be saved? will his love and faith in Jesus save him?

Does a follower of Islam have to be perfect in his/her behavior in order to be received into paradise by Allah? My understanding is that no one is perfect, so if there is going to be anyone admitted to heaven, God has to somehow make room for people who have sinned.

The Christian view is to ask where is your heart directed? If it is toward God, then you are going to seek to live in accordance with his will. If you sin and realize that you have sinned, you will first confess it, second repent of it, and third cease doing it. Sometimes this is not enough. Not because the process is flawed, but because we are so flawed that we don't even realize that some of the things we are doing are in fact sins and that we need to stop doing them (or start doing other things). Christians believe that one of the functions of the Holy Spirit (and also of God's Word) is to teach us the truth and ultimately convict us with regard to sin and righteousness. Then, once again, the individual would turn from his/her sins and seek to live a life of righteousness in conformity to God's will.

No one who claims to be a Christian, and truly is one, will knowingly seek to live outside of God's will. Thus, there cannot be a person who is a mature Christian who fits your above description of still sinning and continuing to hurt people. Of course, not all Christians are mature in their faith, and so there are indeed instance of people who claim to be a Christian who don't act that way. Again, the question is not whether they are perfect or not, but whether they are seeking to grow to become the person God wills for them to be. If they are, however imperfect they may be at the moment, God accepts their faith as being sufficient for salvation. If they aren't seeking to grow to become the person God has called him/her to be, then the reality is that their faith is dead, for living faith always produces works (good works, works of repentance, works of growth in faith and growing conformity to God's will) in the life of those who truly have trusted in Jesus.

And btw, though you didn't ask, those who appear holy and righteous, but whose heart is not directed toward God. They are headed in the wrong direction, just as surely as if they were the worst of sinners, because given enough time, this is what one would see worked out in their lives. If the person isn't willing to make God #1, and serves something else before God, then there is no room for that person in God's kingdom.

What about those who got hurt by him? won't he be held responsible for his actions towards others?

When we turn our lives over to Jesus, we are become a new creation, the old is left behind. That includes our old sins as well. New sins may indeed be punished. Some, such as Catholics, teach a time of purgatory for the purging of those sins. Others would teach that there would be a reduction of the number of jewels in one's crown. But ultimately, Christians believe that God offers us grace that is greater than our sin. Without it, there is no possibility for anyone to gain entrance to heaven, for we don't believe that anyone could ever be good enough for God.

[Grace Seeker]

In your view its the faith that lead a person to act righteously, so work and faith are working together well. While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

I know a few, thankfully a very few, who hold to such views. To my way of understanding, which I hope you found in concert with what PouringRain wrote, the only way they can arrive at the conclusions which they do is to have read the scriptures amiss.

[glo]

In your view its the faith that lead a person to act righteously, so work and faith are working together well. While I really wonder how some people think that they can do whatever they like yet are assured that they have a free ticket to heaven just because they have faith in Jesus.

and yeah share some views with me please, I am curios to know.

On that subject, what about people who do good, are caring and loving, give their time and money to charitable causes etc ... but don't believe in God?

[Danah]

Does a follower of Islam have to be perfect in his/her behavior in order to be received into paradise by Allah? My understanding is that no one is perfect, so if there is going to be anyone admitted to heaven, God has to somehow make room for people who have sinned.

Right, no one is perfect, but in Islam there is a very crystal clear relationship between work and faith. faith is nothing without work and work is nothing without faith either. and this is not just scholar interpretation like Christianity, but its mentioned in the Quran. I can't go now and pick all the places in the Quran where Allah said: "Those who believe in Allah and do good deeds" because this will last for days and days to count them all. Its a very emphasized condition to attain salvation

On that subject, what about people who do good, are caring and loving, give their time and money to charitable causes etc ... but don't believe in God?

Work without faith is nothing too, for those who do good yet don't believe in God they won't be saved in the afterlife. They don't believe in God or afterlife so they can't expect being saved in something they didn't believe in from the beginning.


The answer can be found in many places in Quran like here:
And whoso doeth good works, whether of male or female, and he (or she) is a believer, such will enter paradise and they will not be wronged the dint in a date-stone. [4:124]

[MustafaMc]

Sister Danah, would you agree that it is better to have faith without works than it is to have works without faith. The reason why is those who believed in Allah (swt) without ascribing partners to Him would eventually be taken out of the Hellfire. However, those who die while being unbelievers or while committing shirk will not be forgiven nor taken out of the Hellfire.

[Hiroshi]

Sister Danah, would you agree that it is better to have faith without works than it is to have works without faith. The reason why is those who believed in Allah (swt) without ascribing partners to Him would eventually be taken out of the Hellfire. However, those who die while being unbelievers or while committing shirk will not be forgiven nor taken out of the Hellfire.

Belief should be based on evidence; not mere credulity. What evidence do you have that there is Hellfire with eternal torment?

[Danah]

Sister Danah, would you agree that it is better to have faith without works than it is to have works without faith. The reason why is those who believed in Allah (swt) without ascribing partners to Him would eventually be taken out of the Hellfire. However, those who die while being unbelievers or while committing shirk will not be forgiven nor taken out of the Hellfire.

It seems to be so for anyone. But still, for someone to believe in Allah and his existence yet deny worshiping him, is considered as an act of Kufr, for example, the one who believe in Allah yet deny the obligation of prayer when prayer is one of the main pillars of Islam....that will be an obvious act of Kuffr.

Such person is ridiculing the majesty of Allah and just follow his own desires, this is just remind me of a group of people calling themselves deists.

Allah knows best, you better ask someone more knowledgeable than me in the issues of Aqeedah, I am sure you will find more about this topic.

[Grace Seeker]

<font color="DarkGreen">Right, no one is perfect, but in Islam there is a very crystal clear relationship between work and faith. faith is nothing without work and work is nothing without faith either. and this is not just scholar interpretation like Christianity, but its mentioned in the Quran.

That's OK. You don't have to go and find each reference. I believe you that it is there. It is also not just interpretation in the Bible either. James very clearly writes what I said above: "living faith always produces works." Only his words were: "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20). And to your very question about can a person just say they believe and be saved regardless of how they live, again I'll not interpret, but just let James answer: "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" (James 2:14). This is, I hope you realize, a rhetorical question, to which the answer is indisputedly NO!

It seems to be so for anyone. But still, for someone to believe in Allah and his existence yet deny worshiping him, is considered as an act of Kufr, for example, the one who believe in Allah yet deny the obligation of prayer when prayer is one of the main pillars of Islam....that will be an obvious act of Kuffr.

Such person is ridiculing the majesty of Allah and just follow his own desires, this is just remind me of a group of people calling themselves deists.

Though you are using the language of the Qur'an, the thoughts you express here are every bit as much Christian in nature as they are Islamic:

James 1

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

see also

And what does the LORD require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
(Micah 6:8)

Even Paul, who many use (and often misuse) to justify their antinomian views and declare that faith is the only thing that is important, actually says otherwise. Take a look at what is generally recognized as his greatest theological treatise, the letter to the Romans. He spends the majority of this letter making a case for the Christian faith, but when he concludes that, he then says that if one has such a faith, that there are implications as to what that means in the way one lives:

Romans 12

1 Therefore [that is, given all that he has taught about the Christian faith in the first 11 chapters], I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a] faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

He goes on like this with specific actions that are to be evidenced in the lives of anyone who has accepted this faith that he speaks of. I'm not denying that there some Christians who cherry pick their favorite verses which speak of the being saved by grace, through faith. Those verses are true, and indeed are among my favorite. But notice what the Bible actually teaches is that salvation is by grace, and through faith, not by faith -- there is a difference, and despite running multiple searches in several different translations, I could find no place where the Bible says that one is "saved by faith". And regardless, the Christian is not to be satisfied with merely the event of being saved. To experience God's saving grace and then stop there is to fail to follow the biblical injunctions to put that faith into practice, and additionally is to ignore the whole of the Christian scriptures which also teaches us to "work out our salvation" (Philippians 2:12).

[SalamChristian]

Salvation has an immediate and an eternal meaning. Immediately, it means that your soul does not perish today. Eternally, it means that your soul does not perish on the Judgement Day, the Apocalypse.

Here is a quote from Jesus (pbuh) that I believe will help you understand salvation very quickly and simply:

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “What is written in the Law?” he (Jesus) replied. “How do you read it?” He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Thankfully, the Gospel of Mark also records that Jesus (pbuh) holds you must believe "the Lord your God is one." Meaning, that there is only one God.

It is important to keep in mind the concept of the Judgement Day when you consider these things. From what I understand, both Islam and Christianity hold belief in the Last Day. Salvation ultimately refers to your standing on the last day, and living through it.

Salaam Alaikum,

[Grace Seeker]

Salvation has an immediate and an eternal meaning. Immediately, it means that your soul does not perish today. Eternally, it means that your soul does not perish on the Judgement Day, the Apocalypse.

</p>
Might salvation mean more than just being saved from hell? Might it not also mean being saved for God and for God's purposes?

The death that we die, is it not more than just the death of the soul? Is it not even more the separation that sinful creatures experience from being denied fellowship with the Holy One who is their creator? It isn't the cessation of breath, but the cessation of living in a right relationship with God that typifies one's spiritual death. God saves us from that by reconciling us to himself.


It is important to understand that we don't save ourselves by any particular act, but that God's work on the cross is that which actually accomplishes our salvation. We then live into it first by faith and trusting in God's work and promises, and then by living in submission to his will in our lives, we give evidence of that right relationship by conforming our behavior, even our very thoughts, to be in accord with what God would have us think and do rather than continuing on to simply do as we please, which really is evidence that we aren't living in that reconciled relationship after all and have rejected his saving grace.</p>

[SalamChristian]

Grace Seeker,

I think you stated better than I did the meaning of immediate salvation. To anyone who wants to understand immediate salvation, I endorse Grace Seeker's explanation instead of my own. Forgive me, sometimes anyone can have trouble finding the right words.

As far as eternal salvation goes, I still defer to the definition I provided. The Judgement day is the final judgement. All those who do not find salvation on that day perish.

Also, I agree with the point Grace Seeker makes about God's mercy and grace being the source of salvation, and our coming to see it through trusting in God. This point is in agreement with the scriptural words of Jesus (pbuh) I quoted earlier. Loving god with all of your heart, mind, strength, and spirit, is the equivalent of placing full trust in him (some may not agree with this). Agreed also that "any particular act" doesn't lead to salvation. It is important to recognize, however, that love is not an act but an openness and trust for God on the mental level. Lastly, I absolutely agree that God's work on the cross (and Jesus faithfulness in going onto it) is the beginning of the actual accomplishment of salvation.

Salaam,
Bob

[3rddec]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

I suggest Muslims easy offended don't read this part, iwould send it privately to PYGOCELIS but am unsure how to do this.

For PYGOCELIS God is not changing his mind rather he is a Just God who Lives by his own law for if God did not live by his own law he could not be Just. God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. The ancient Jews sacrificed living creatures to attone for their sins, but God was going to sacrifice his only begotton Son to atone for our sins. A just God could not just change the Law and save man just because he wanted to if he did he would not be the Lawfull God he is ; Satan thought he had one a great battle when he caused Adam to fall as he thought he had God trapped by his own Lawfullness but God played his Ace card ; Christ. Now Satan tries to fool the world that it never happened because he cant undue it but he thinks if he hides it he can still win.

LOVE and RESPECT

[Woodrow]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

I suggest Muslims easy offended don't read this part, iwould send it privately to PYGOCELIS but am unsure how to do this.

For PYGOCELIS God is not changing his mind rather he is a Just God who Lives by his own law for if God did not live by his own law he could not be Just. God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. The ancient Jews sacrificed living creatures to attone for their sins, but God was going to sacrifice his only begotton Son to atone for our sins. A just God could not just change the Law and save man just because he wanted to if he did he would not be the Lawfull God he is ; Satan thought he had one a great battle when he caused Adam to fall as he thought he had God trapped by his own Lawfullness but God played his Ace card ; Christ. Now Satan tries to fool the world that it never happened because he cant undue it but he thinks if he hides it he can still win.

LOVE and RESPECT

But what was the sacrifice????? The concept of sacrifice means to eternally give up something you value. In the Christian concept of Jesus(as) being sacrificed, there was no sacrifice, because God(swt) did not give up anything. He knew Jesus(swt) would return. There was no sacrifice, if you believe God(swt) sacrificed his son as the son was never given up. Possibly loaned out for a few days, but not given away for all time.

How much of a sacrifice would one be making if he gave away his entire wealth in a check, knowing it will be returned in 3 days?

[Sol Invictus]

But what was the sacrifice????? ( a ) The concept of sacrifice means to eternally give up something you value. In the Christian concept of Jesus(as) being sacrificed, there was no sacrifice, because God(swt) did not give up anything. He knew Jesus(swt) would return. There was no sacrifice, if you believe God(swt) sacrificed his son as the son was never given up. Possibly loaned out for a few days, but not given away for all time.

How much of a sacrifice would one be making if he gave away his entire wealth in a check, knowing it will be returned in 3 days?

( a ) that is untrue. if we are trying to make a link with how sacrifice was perceived in the old testament (and as such, in the jewish world view) then it is wrong to claim that sacrifice entails giving up something eternally. if one looks at the old testament, they would see that sacrifice is actually a subset of offerings and is simply the transfer of one's property to god:

a. Fundamentally, sacrifice was the transfer of property from the offerer to God. The OT/Tanaach
laws highlight this aspect in the choice of materials allowed:

"The sacrificial victim had to be taken from the clean animals and birds (Gn. 8:20), and could be bullock, goat, sheep, dove or pigeon (cf. Gn. 15:9), but not camel or ass (Ex. 13:13). These provisions are not to be traced to the idea of sacrifice as ‘food for the gods’ (viz. that the gods ate what man ate)—as might be suggested by Lv. 3:11; 21:6; Ezk. 44:7—for fish (Lv. 11:9) and wild animals (Dt. 12:22) could be eaten but not sacrificed. The principle seems rather to have been that of property (cf. 2 Sa. 24:24), the wild animals being regarded as in some sense already God’s (Ps. 50:9ff.; cf. Is. 40:16), while the domestic animals had become man’s by his labours (Gn. 22:13 is only apparently an exception), and were in a kind of ‘biotic rapport’ with him. This was even more clearly the case with the non-blood offerings, which had been produced by ‘the sweat of his brow’ (cereals, flour, oil, wine, etc.), and were also staple articles of the kitchen. Property unlawfully acquired was not acceptable (Dt. 23:18)." [NBD, s.v. "Sacrifice and Offering"]


This can also be seen from David's comment in 1 Chrn 21.23f: "Araunah said to David, “Take it! Let my lord the king do whatever pleases him. Look, I will give the oxen for the burnt offerings, the threshing sledges for the wood, and the wheat for the grain offering. I will give all this.” 24 But King David replied to Araunah, “No, I insist on paying the full price. I will not take for the LORD what is yours, or sacrifice a burnt offering that costs me nothing.” [Notice that it had to (a) be David's and (b) involve a personal 'loss']

once the property is given over to god, it then becomes his to deal with as sees fit such as when god received the levites as a wave offering and then gave them to aaron (numbers 8:14-19). furthermore, even the very tithes that the people gave to god was to be given back to the people for celebration and relief (Deuteronomy 14):

And you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 “And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. 26 “And you may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 “Also you shall not neglect the Levite who is in your town, for he has no portion or inheritance among you. 28 “At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town. 29 “And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and eat and be satisfied, in order that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

The net of this is that the sacrifice/offering of an Israelite/priest transferred ownership of something to God, and God was completely free to do whatever He wanted to with it then. The sacrifice was ‘completed’ when ownership transferred…

And ownership transferred in an act, not in a state. It was in the act of ‘waving’ that the Wave offering was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep waving it forever. It was in the act of holding the Heave offering up that it was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep it elevated forever. It was in the act of ‘burning’ that the offering was ‘taken’ by God—they didn’t have to keep burning it somehow forever. It was in the act of dying that the offering was ‘taken’ by God—the offering didn’t have to somehow keep dying forever. [Remember also, that it wasn’t ‘been dead’ that was the issue, because the Israelites were forbidden to bring dead animals to the altar for sacrifice—it was death-as-the-giving-over-to act that was the transitional event.]

If God had chosen to “resurrect” a burnt/dead animal, that would be entirely in keeping with His ‘legal rights of property’ under the rules of sacrifice, and would have IN NO WAY ‘un-done’ the act/fact of the sacrificial giving by the Israelite. [Also, remember that the sacrifice was OFTEN given back to the worshipper for food-celebration, but the fact that he/she got it back didn’t ‘undo’ the value of their heart’s devotion to God, as expressed in the offering.]

so from a biblical perspective (which is the only perspective that matters in such a case), the sacrifice of christ is a proper one.

[3rddec]

The sacrifice was that Christ the sinless one took on the punishment for the sins of the world and offered up his purest of blood for it and God accepted this as the perfect sacrifice just as he had accepted lesser sacrifices starting with Abel. As Adam handed over control of humanity to Satan ; Christs buys control back with his sacrifice. If you were to imagine all the mental and physical torture Christ endured you can only see it as the greatest sacrifice one human can make. Please dont raise the issue of christians believing Christ is God so not Human as you know our beliefs. Of course this does not mean we are free to sin as much as we like because Christ has paid for them all; we still have to accept Gods open door and when we do we learn to love God better and try not to offend him anymore.

Love and Respect

[Ramadhan]

as far as the Original question as asked goes the first reply was by in large correct; all christians believe that the salvation of all men is through the suffering of Christ on the cross for the worlds sin to atone for. the Sin of Adam that initially took man away from the righteous path.

You are correct that only christians believe in the suffering of God who staged a suicide to pay for Adam's sins.

The God of the OT did not even believe this, the jews did not and do not believe this.
Heck, even Jesus did not believe this.

[MustafaMc]

God always wanted man to return but he could forgive mans sin but Justice demanded that there was atonement for it. .... Christ has paid for them all

So you say that God "theoretically" could forgive sin, but really He can't forgive even the smallest sin because "justice" demands an atonement or payment must be made to offset that sin. Another way of saying this is that Jesus "bought" your salvation with his blood shed on the cross. Well, you place your hope and faith in the blood of Jesus while I place mine in the the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah ir-Rahmani r-Raheem (swt). We Muslims believe that Jesus did not even die on the cross. Have you ever entertained the thought of what the obvious implications are if that is in fact the Truth?

[Fivesolas]

So you say that God "theoretically" could forgive sin, but really He can't forgive even the smallest sin because "justice" demands an atonement or payment must be made to offset that sin. Another way of saying this is that Jesus "bought" your salvation with his blood shed on the cross. Well, you place your hope and faith in the blood of Jesus while I place mine in the the Mercy and Forgiveness of Allah ir-Rahmani r-Raheem (swt). We Muslims believe that Jesus did not even die on the cross. Have you ever entertained the thought of what the obvious implications are if that is in fact the Truth?

I know 3rddec can answer for himself. But I wanted to respond to the idea.

Have I considered the implication of the idea that Jesus didn't die on the cross? Yes. If Christ is not crucified, and furthermore then, raised from the dead, then I am still in my sins. Without Christ and Him crucified and risen from the dead, there is no Christianity. Whatever would have Christ not crucified is not Christian. The entire focus of the NT is Christ Jesus and Him crucified and raised from the dead.

Anyone who would say otherwise has a serious misunderstanding of the NT. The whole focus is Redemption in Christ Jesus, and that redemption is accomplished by the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

MustafaMc, it is incorrect to suggest that Christians are not hoping in the mercy, grace, and forgiveness of God. We understand and believe that God's mercy, love, and forgiveness are in Christ Jesus alone.

Let me ask you...have you ever enterntained the thought of what the obvious implications are if in fact Christ Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead? If He indeed is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

-fivesolas

[MustafaMc]

MustafaMc, it is incorrect to suggest that Christians are not hoping in the mercy, grace, and forgiveness of God. We understand and believe that God's mercy, love, and forgiveness are in Christ Jesus alone.

From my perspective as a former Baptist and member of the Church of Christ is that they have placed their faith in the cross for their salvation. I don't see that Christians believe there can be forgiveness of sins outside of the redeeming sacrifice as you so indicated. Hence, there is not real forgiveness, but rather their debt has been paid as in past tense. Since their hope is in a past event, there is no question of their salvation and no possibility of the Hellfire.

Let me ask you...have you ever enterntained the thought of what the obvious implications are if in fact Christ Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead? If He indeed is the Way, the Truth, and the Life?

Have you ever heard of 'you can't have your cake and eat it too' or 'you can't have it both ways'. Well, I can't be a Christian and a Muslim just like I can't believe 'Jesus was God's only begotten son' and 'Allah begets not and He is not begotten'. I can't believe 'no one comes to the Father except through the son' and 'Allah forgives not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.'

The implications are, as you said, obvious if Christianity is the Truth and I have rejected the free gift of Jesus' blood. I have made my decision as I am sure you have too and both of us will pay the consequences or reap the benefit of our choices in this life.

[Woodrow]

Having spent a good bit of my life as a Christian I found that this concept of Jesus(as) suffering to pay for man's sins equates to forgiveness not being freely given by God(swt) but had to be bought. I grew to see that as bribary and not as freely given forgiveness. How can we say forgiveness came to us freely when a great price had to be paid for it and we had to borrow the payment from God(swt) to pay him?

I see Allaah(swt) as being with limitless mercy and forgiveness and one who forgives freely to those who will come to him. Allaah(swt) does not set the price of an admission ticket as the criteria to enter heaven. Sincerely repent and Allaah(swt) forgives without charge. Allaah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and no charge or ticket is required. It is through Islam we find truly free forgiveness being offered as it always has been.

[Sol Invictus]

I grew to see that as bribary and not as freely given forgiveness. How can we say forgiveness came to us freely when a great price had to be paid for it and we had to borrow the payment from God(swt) to pay him?

perhaps a proper thread on the matter of forgiveness in islam and christianity should be created. that said, forgiveness comes to us freely because we do not deserve it and it is not us who pay the price. god pays it himself and as such we receive a free gift. i don't think that we can question whether forgiveness is free or not given that it is god himself who pays the price for us but i wouldn't mind hearing of any counter-arguments. i believe that in your post you imply that when christians say that they receive the free gift of salvation they mean that nothing in particular enabled them to stand justified before god and that is not what christians say. the aspect of forgiveness which is free is that the christian does not pay the price but rather god himself and as such your critique stands unjustified. i feel like i should give an example:

imagine receiving a brand new tv as a gift. the tv would in fact be free but that doesn't mean that the one who gave you this gift did not have to pay for the tv. this example illustrates quite well how on the matter of whether the christian salvation is a free gift, christianity is above reproach.

( a ) I see Allaah(swt) as being with limitless mercy and forgiveness and one who forgives freely to those who will come to him. ( b ) Allaah(swt) does not set the price of an admission ticket as the criteria to enter heaven.

( a ) i would actually beg to differ. from how islamic forgiveness works, it is far from likely that the muslim deity is actually infinite in the attributes of mercy and/or forgivess. instead he stuck in a precarious situation where one divine attribute always has to trump the other. this cannot make any sense if these attributes truly be infinite but i digress. depending on your response i will certainly elaborate on this matter because i find it certainly fascinating how when one truly thinks of how allah dispenses justice, certain serious problems do arise.

( b ) i would once more have to disagree with you woodrow. it is my understanding that even in islam heaven is predicated on a certain number of things. in islam one has to work for their heaven through a series of obligatory and voluntary acts while in christianity heaven is the free gift. this illustrates two very important concepts. in islam, one has to work for the reward and therefore it is a fear of hell and a desire to escape this realm and enter paradise which drives the muslim to do good while in christianity it is the desire to live in accordance to the nature of god that drives one to do good. the christian does not do good deeds in order to enter heaven, heaven is already given to him. instead he does good deeds to please his father. these two concepts are not unlike the servant and the son. the servant has to continue doing good in order to continually win the favour of the master and does so primarily for personal benefit (not to enter hell), the son however does not have to win the love of the father and does good simply because he loves the father and not for any reward. what reward can he have when everything is already given to him at the start? so all i mean to say is that the concepts of slavery and sonship are crucial to understanding christianity and islam and i would continue as to what ramifications these two concepts have on the matter of love, obediance etc. but i feel that i'm getting severely off-topic. anyway, i will be awaiting your response.

Allaah(swt) has the power to forgive sins and no charge or ticket is required. [...] It is through Islam we find truly free forgiveness being offered as it always has been

i would argue that in islam one simply finds a different kind of "free" forgiveness. if forgiveness is to culminate in the granting of paradise for the muslim then at the very least, heaven to the muslim is not free in the same way that one's paycheque is not a free thing that they receive every pay-cycle. they have to work for it and as such, a charge and/or ticket is in fact required of the muslim while this is not true of the christian.

[MustafaMc]

Brother Woodrow, how many times do you suppose that the phrase bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem (in the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful) is said around the world in a single day? Christians claim that an atonement must be paid for one's sin and they seem to deny the ability of Allah (swt) to forgive sin with a figurative sweep of the hand. Just as there is absolutely nothing that we can do to benefit Allah (swt) so also there is nothing that we can do to injure Him. We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

[Woodrow]

perhaps a proper thread on the matter of forgiveness in islam and christianity should be created. that said, forgiveness comes to us freely because we do not deserve it and it is not us who pay the price. god pays it himself and as such we receive a free gift. i don't think that we can question whether forgiveness is free or not given that it is god himself who pays the price for us but i wouldn't mind hearing of any counter-arguments. i believe that in your post you imply that when christians say that they receive the free gift of salvation they mean that nothing in particular enabled them to stand justified before god and that is not what christians say. the aspect of forgiveness which is free is that the christian does not pay the price but rather god himself and as such your critique stands unjustified. i feel like i should give an example:

imagine receiving a brand new tv as a gift. the tv would in fact be free but that doesn't mean that the one who gave you this gift did not have to pay for the tv. this example illustrates quite well how on the matter of whether the christian salvation is a free gift, christianity is above reproach.


( a ) i would actually beg to differ. from how islamic forgiveness works, it is far from likely that the muslim deity is actually infinite in the attributes of mercy and/or forgivess. instead he stuck in a precarious situation where one divine attribute always has to trump the other. this cannot make any sense if these attributes truly be infinite but i digress. depending on your response i will certainly elaborate on this matter because i find it certainly fascinating how when one truly thinks of how allah dispenses justice, certain serious problems do arise.

( b ) i would once more have to disagree with you woodrow. it is my understanding that even in islam heaven is predicated on a certain number of things. in islam one has to work for their heaven through a series of obligatory and voluntary acts while in christianity heaven is the free gift. this illustrates two very important concepts. in islam, one has to work for the reward and therefore it is a fear of hell and a desire to escape this realm and enter paradise which drives the muslim to do good while in christianity it is the desire to live in accordance to the nature of god that drives one to do good. the christian does not do good deeds in order to enter heaven, heaven is already given to him. instead he does good deeds to please his father. these two concepts are not unlike the servant and the son. the servant has to continue doing good in order to continually win the favour of the master and does so primarily for personal benefit (not to enter hell), the son however does not have to win the love of the father and does good simply because he loves the father and not for any reward. what reward can he have when everything is already given to him at the start? so all i mean to say is that the concepts of slavery and sonship are crucial to understanding christianity and islam and i would continue as to what ramifications these two concepts have on the matter of love, obediance etc. but i feel that i'm getting severely off-topic. anyway, i will be awaiting your response.


i would argue that in islam one simply finds a different kind of "free" forgiveness. if forgiveness is to culminate in the granting of paradise for the muslim then at the very least, heaven to the muslim is not free in the same way that one's paycheque is not a free thing that they receive every pay-cycle. they have to work for it and as such, a charge and/or ticket is in fact required of the muslim while this is not true of the christian.

Peace Sol,

This is a very common misconception I often find among non-Muslims. We do place very high emphasis on charity and good deeds and worship. But not one of them or even all together can ever earn us as much as a peek into heaven. None of our good works will ever get us into heaven. It is only the mercy of Allaah(swt) that can do so. Forgiveness can only come from Allaah(swt) and all that is required is for us to sincerely repent of our sins. Yes we do believe Allaah(swt) will reward our good works, many times more than their value. but if we do not repent, that reward just may be here on earth. The good works have no way to buy us into heaven.

It is possible for a person who dedicates his entire life to good works to find himself in hellfire, simply because in spite of all his works, he never repented of his sins.

[Sol Invictus]

We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

now mustafa, if you had at all studied christianity (i do not remember if you have said before that you used to be a christian or not. i might have you confused with another member) you would know that your sentence does not make sense. the christian trusts in god and so he places his faith on the testimony that the father himself has given concerning the son. if one does not believe in the son then they call god a liar because god himself vindicated the truth of his son and so there is no trusting of the father outside of his son. this is not unlike saying that muslims do not trust the muslim deity because they also place their faith in the sunnah of the islamic prophet. yet the islamic deity himself testifies to the truth of the sunnah of muhammad and so there is no trusting of allah while rejecting the sunnah of muhammad. as such, the same logic applies. please at the very least consider if what you say isn't equally detrimental to your position before posting it as a sustained attack on the tenets of christianity.

[Sol Invictus]

Peace Sol,

This is a very common misconception I often find among non-Muslims. We do place very high emphasis on charity and good deeds and worship. But not one of them or even all together can ever earn us as much as a peek into heaven. None of our good works will ever get us into heaven. It is only the mercy of Allaah(swt) that can do so. Forgiveness can only come from Allaah(swt) and all that is required is for us to sincerely repent of our sins. Yes we do believe Allaah(swt) will reward our good works, many times more than their value. but if we do not repent, that reward just may be here on earth. The good works have no way to buy us into heaven.

It is possible for a person who dedicates his entire life to good works to find himself in hellfire, simply because in spite of all his works, he never repented of his sins.

greetings woodrow,

i can see how my point could be seen in such a fashion but i do understand that good works do not automatically give one access to heaven according to islam and in this respect both muslims and christians are in agreement. i was pointing to the fact however that according to islam (and correct me if i am mistaken) one's good deeds must outweigh one's bad deeds in order to enter heaven. as such, the total amount of voluntary and obligatory acts (and whatever else could constitute as good deeds) must outweigh one's bad ones in order to merit heaven. in light of this, i would hold that my point is correct but i will await your response seeing as you are the practising muslim and i am not. should i be incorrect on this matter then i would very much appreciate your correction seeing as it would prove to be a blessing and help me to have a more thorough understanding of islam.

[Woodrow]

Brother Woodrow, how many times do you suppose that the phrase bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem (in the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful) is said around the world in a single day? Christians claim that an atonement must be paid for one's sin and they seem to deny the ability of Allah (swt) to forgive sin with a figurative sweep of the hand. Just as there is absolutely nothing that we can do to benefit Allah (swt) so also there is nothing that we can do to injure Him. We are promised forgiveness over and over again in the Quran and we put our trust in His Mercy; whereas, Christians put their trust in the blood of Jesus for their salvation.

Brother Mustafa, even the least practicing Muslim will have bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem on his lips many times in a day and much more often in his thoughts. I do not think it is possible for any of us to contemplate or do anything without our desire to do it in the Name of Allaah(swt). The thought of not saying the Bismiilah is as alien as trying to go without breathing. All we do is for Allaah(swt) and all our thoughts, words and deeds are a prayer.

[Woodrow]

greetings woodrow,

i can see how my point could be seen in such a fashion but i do understand that good works do not automatically give one access to heaven according to islam and in this respect both muslims and christians are in agreement. i was pointing to the fact however that according to islam (and correct me if i am mistaken) one's good deeds must outweigh one's bad deeds in order to enter heaven. as such, the total amount of voluntary and obligatory acts (and whatever else could constitute as good deeds) must outweigh one's bad ones in order to merit heaven. in light of this, i would hold that my point is correct but i will await your response seeing as you are the practising muslim and i am not. should i be incorrect on this matter then i would very much appreciate your correction seeing as it would prove to be a blessing and help me to have a more thorough understanding of islam.

A Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath.

If we could get into heaven by having our good deeds out weigh our bad deeds there would be no need for anybody to be Muslim. There are many very good and kind non-Muslims who do many good deeds. But that is not going to get anybody into heaven.

[Sol Invictus]

( a ) A Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath.

( b ) If we could get into heaven by having our good deeds out weigh our bad deeds there would be no need for anybody to be Muslim. There are many very good and kind non-Muslims who do many good deeds. But that is not going to get anybody into heaven.

( a ) if allah does indeed forgive all of one's bad deeds and the act of coming to repentance is indeed a good deed then i would argue that it is impossible for one to enter heaven without one's good deeds outweighing one's bad ones. even in your example, once the bad deeds are forgiven, they are no longer taken into account and so the good deed of repentance would actually outweigh all other bad deeds because there would be none. woodrow, i do not want to beat a dead horse and am merely clarifying my position but i do not see how what you have said actually contradicts anything i have said so far. once more i await to see if what i have said is incorrect.

(on a side note, this then brings into question the oft-repeated claim by muslims that christianity allows anyone both murderers and rapists into heaven if they simply ask for forgiveness. i know that neither you nor anyone else within this thread has said so and in this respect my discussion on this is rather off-topic but in light of what you have said, it would seem that islam and christianity largely operate in the same manner in this respect but i digress. this in itself is a topic for a different thread.)

edit: i should also then ask if this then doesn't lead to automatic salvation for the muslim. christians are often castigated for believing that they are saved from the moment that they truly place faith in the blood of christ. it is my understanding that no muslim can be certain of their salvation. is this incorrect and are you in particular certain that you will be in heaven woodrow? if so, is this the general muslim position?

( b ) true, which is why my argument presupposes that one is a muslim.

[Woodrow]

( a ) if allah does indeed forgive all of one's bad deeds and the act of coming to repentance is indeed a good deed then i would argue that it is impossible for one to enter heaven without one's good deeds outweighing one's bad ones. even in your example, once the bad deeds are forgiven, they are no longer taken into account and so the good deed of repentance would actually outweigh all other bad deeds because there would be none. woodrow, i do not want to beat a dead horse and am merely clarifying my position but i do not see how what you have said actually contradicts anything i have said so far. once more i await to see if what i have said is incorrect.

That does not differ from what many Christians also believe. Most Christians believe that a person can repent on his death bed and still go to heaven in spite of a lifetime of sin. So I guess they believe that final good deed outweighs all of their bad deeds they would have at that moment

(on a side note, this then brings into question the oft-repeated claim by muslims that christianity allows anyone both murderers and rapists into heaven if they simply ask for forgiveness. i know that neither you nor anyone else within this thread has said so and in this respect my discussion on this is rather off-topic but in light of what you have said, it would seem that islam and christianity largely operate in the same manner in this respect but i digress. this in itself is a topic for a different thread.)

I agree

edit: i should also then ask if this then doesn't lead to automatic salvation for the muslim. christians are often castigated for believing that they are saved from the moment that they truly place faith in the blood of christ. it is my understanding that no muslim can be certain of their salvation. is this incorrect and are you in particular certain that you will be in heaven woodrow? if so, is this the general muslim position?

I have no idea who will go to heaven. We humans have free will and just as each of us can gain heaven on our death bed, we each have the ability to decline or refuse heaven on our death bed. I would like to say I am currently on the path to heaven, but I am human and like all humans can be subject to my own wants and desires or succumb to temptation and wander off the path to heaven before I die. That is in agreement with all of the Muslims I personally know. But I can not say it is the general Muslim posistion as we are all individuals.

[Sol Invictus]

That does not differ from what many Christians also believe. Most Christians believe that a person can repent on his death bed and still go to heaven in spite of a lifetime of sin. So I guess they believe that final good deed outweighs all of their bad deeds they would have at that moment.

i believe in the above as well (though then to the christian this leads to the question whether faith itself is a work but that is neither here nor there) and didn't primarily write the above in order to contrast islam from christianity. it should however be coupled with the fact that no individual has failed to do even a single good deed and so if all other bad deeds are forgiven they would still have the good deed of their faith + the other good deeds which they have done and so in this regard the balance of the good deeds versus bad deeds would lean in favour of the good deeds. this then is in contrast to christianity which posits that one's good deeds are not enough to merit heaven.

i should however note that i believe my position to be wrong about islam because from my reading there does seem to be a very real balancing of good deeds versus bad deeds which wouldn't really be possible if the muslim deity had forgiven all bad deeds anyway. unless of course one maintains that it is only those sins which we have not asked for forgiveness which will be brought against us yet this ignores certain prayers such as "forgive all my sins" etc. furthermore, how much do we really know of our intentions? even our best intentions are always marred by some sense of selfishness, pride etc. even the very process of asking for forgiveness should be questioned with as to why one does so. is it because they truly love allah or because they want to be saved from hell? is it because they await the pleasures of the islamic heaven or because they wish to follow what is right? and how would one truly know that they are doing these for the right reasons? can we perfectly understand our hidden desires? far more often it is a mixture of both and as such with every act of repentance one commits it is all the more probable that he incurs another act of sin. man is not perfectly good. he does good imperfectly, he loves imperfectly, he forgives imperfectly and even our repentance is imperfect. imperfect repentance by its very nature carries an aspect of sin and seeing as we are never completely sure of our motives it is very probable that every time we repent of one sin, we also incur another. there is no way to know for sure our reasons for repentance and as such no way to really know where we lie on the scale of good vs. bad. i know that i'm dragging this topic out but i think that when one crafts a system where morality and goodness become a game of numbers (by this i mean when they become quantifiable)--so to speak--they run into problems such as this (simply look at utilitarianism for an example). all this to say, i do not believe that any muslim on this board can actually say that they are sure that all their sins are forgiven or that they have done more good deeds than bad deeds. this would at the very least require perfect knowledge of their very own intentions and no one can at all claim to this. furthermore, i should go ahead and mention that i do not believe that christianity suffers from the same problem (surprise, surprise) and i am more than willing to elaborate on the matter if you choose to call this belief of mine into question.

[siam]

Some people tend to understand things in "either this or that" mode of thinking. Islam is not "either this or that"----it is a wholistic way of understanding. --its concepts are based on balance and harmony. Therefore neither "works" nor "belief" stand on their own, but work in harmony to create balance----right belief that inspires right intentons that lead to right actions. All 3 elements are important. Religion is for the benefit of mankind----not for the benefit of God who has no needs. This benefit is realized when all 3 elements (belief, intentions, actions) work together in harmony and balance.

[Sol Invictus]

Some people tend to understand things in "either this or that" mode of thinking. Islam is not "either this or that"----it is a wholistic way of understanding. --its concepts are based on balance and harmony. Therefore neither "works" nor "belief" stand on their own, but work in harmony to create balance----right belief that inspires right intentons that lead to right actions. All 3 elements are important. Religion is for the benefit of mankind----not for the benefit of God who has no needs. This benefit is realized when all 3 elements (belief, intentions, actions) work together in harmony and balance.

thank you for the response but the claim that neither works nor belief stand on their own is contradictory to woodrow's claim that:

A Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath.

that said, if my understanding of repentance being a good deed in itself is correct and the ramifications of this (though i tend to think that this is incorrect but you'll have to read the post prior to this one in order to understand why) then these can in fact be harmonized (to a limited degree). yet as is, your claim is that belief is not enough in order for one to be saved while at least woodrow's initial comments were that belief was in fact enough to be saved. the question then is, what does salvation depend on, belief or works? can the muslim who died before being able to repent of the majority of his sins be saved or must the repentance have been present for him to find salvation? from this understanding would follow the fact that faith is not enough to be saved.

also, as i recall it, muslims believe that the ummah will be split into 73 sects and that individuals belonging to only one of these will be saved. it should be assumed that not all of these sects will practise evil deeds etc. (for even atheists know how to be moral) and so we can readily assume that some of these sects will practise moral actions and yet at least all of these but one will go to hell because of not having the right faith. from this understanding it would seem that works are not then enough.

so is faith able to save on its own or must good deeds be accompanied with faith according to the muslim? whatever the answer please do remember the case of the muslim who would die without being able to repent of his bad deeds.

[siam]

In Islam, someone else cannot take on the sins of another or repent for the sins of someone else---each individual is responsible for his own spiritual journey/path and this path is intimate and private between the individual and God. God is Compassionate and Merciful and does not require perfection---because spiritual growth requires learning from trials, errors, mistakes as well as being tested by our blessings. Both Good fortune and Bad fortune are a trial/test.

[siam]

"Muslim can spend his entire life in debauchery and never do as much as one good deed and still enter into Heaven if he is truly repentant in his last breath."
---I havn't read all of Woodrows comments---but I agree with what he said here. humility/repentence is an important concept in Islam---God is most Compassionate and most merciful and can see what is in our hearts.....

[Sol Invictus]

i can only assume that your postw as directed towards me siam and so here is my response:

( a ) In Islam, someone else cannot take on the sins of another or repent for the sins of someone else---each individual is responsible for his own spiritual journey/path and this path is intimate and private between the individual and God. God is Compassionate and Merciful and does not require perfection---because spiritual growth requires learning from trials, errors, mistakes as well as being tested by our blessings. Both Good fortune and Bad fortune are a trial/test.

( a ) i'd have to disagree my friend. in islam and in life people regularly take the punishments of others. look at the story of noah. muslims and christians believe that god ordered a flood which consumed the whole world. now we can be more than sure that little babies and children died in this flood too and in islam the flood is specifically brought on humanity in order to punish polytheism yet little babies whom one can only assume weren't polytheists died as well. why is this? now in christinity the matter can easily be reconciled when one remembers that everyone is born a sinner and there is no one who is just and as such the punishment of sinners is perfectly in keeping with god's righteousness. in islam however, the baies at the very least are sinless and to have them drown along with the polytheists because of the sin of the polytheists is unjust. there are many examples that one can bring that show the exact same pattern of allah regularly punishing the just because of the sins of the sinners and as such you will have to explain to us how you can maintain that an individual does not take on the sins of another when the islamic deity regularly punishes individuals for the sins of others.

now, i foresee that you might claim that this is perfectly alright seeing as those children would go to heaven but the salvation of those children is not what is in question here. why did allah also punish those sinless children if the flood was because of polytheism and an individual cannot take on the sin of another (and therefore not be punished for their sin)? not to be disrespectful but this is the incoherence of islam. if you would like you are free to start a thread on the subject of islam and christianity as they relate to forgiveness and sin and i would be more than happy to discuss the matter with you seeing as this fascinates me.

[siam]

I would say, repentence would be an intention---to have the humility to admit that one's life choices may have been wrong/harmful and this can lead to right belief and thus to right actions. There is a verse in the Quran about the Pharoah repenting as he was drowining(I think)---however, his repentence was not accepted. Again, one has to remember the wholistic nature of Islam. God is most compassionate, most merciful, and he is also Just. He knows what is in our hearts. Sincere repentence and humility merits his compassion and mercy.

[Sol Invictus]

siam, i do not know what you are responding to. i am assuming that you're replying to me but without quoting the appropriate section i do not at all know what particular point your reply is aimed at.

[siam]

@ Sol
---I have to disagree---God does not punish the innocent......( I want to look up the verse that explains this concept.....but need some time)
The story of Prophet Noah (pbuh) in the Quran is about God punishing ONLY those who deserved it---and those who did NOT deserve it were not punished----However, these stories (this and others like it) are not about "punishments" ---they are about cleansing. As the Quran explains, there are times that world is so overgrown with inequity and injustice that the good suffer and cry out to God. He is most compassionate and merciful and sends Guidance so that those in error can come to right. Only when this guidance is rejected in favor of inequity, injustice, oppression, does God intervene so that the good/goodness may have a chance to grow. It is man that must make the choice between good and evil---the gift of free-will comes with that responsibility..........

[MustafaMc]

the christian trusts in god and so he places his faith on the testimony that the father himself has given concerning the son.

I am not a Bible scholar, but I have read most of the NT. I have also read "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman where he writes about the chaos of conflicting beliefs in the 1st century among the Marcionite, Ebionite, Gnostic and the Proto-Orthodox groups. The differences between these competing theologies were by no means minor. You trust that the Proto-Orthodox view that became victorious was in fact the true religion that was taught by Jesus and his disciples and by default accept the their books of the NT as being accurate representations of the Word of God. Also by default you lump all together any alternative view of Christianity and their books such as the Gospel of Thomas discovered at Nag Hamadi as being heretical.

My understanding of Christianity is that you trust that Jesus was at the same time the only begotten Son of God (whatever that means) and literally God in human flesh, that he lived a perfect life, and that he died on the cross as the only possible redeeming sacrifice for mankind to be forgiven of Adam's original sin as well as his own personal sins.

Quoting from http://bible.org/article/gods-plan-salvation "Because of what Jesus Christ accomplished for us on the cross, the Bible states “He that has the Son has life.” We can receive the Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior by personal faith, by trusting in the person of Christ and His death for our sins." and "This means we must each come to God the same way: (1) as a sinner who recognizes his sinfulness, (2) realizes no human works can result in salvation, and (3) relies totally on Christ alone by faith alone for our salvation." Quoting from http://www.sbc.net/knowjesus/theplan.asp "Jesus paid the price for your sin and mine by giving His life on a cross at a place called Calvary, just outside of the city walls of Jerusalem in ancient Israel. God brought Jesus back from the dead. He provided the way for you to have a personal relationship with Him through Jesus. When we realize how deeply our sin grieves the heart of God and how desperately we need a Savior, we are ready to receive God's offer of salvation."

From these quotes I understand that the Christian plan of salvation is to accept the free gift of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with God. You are, of course, free to outline your own personal understanding of the Christian plan of salvation.

if one does not believe in the son then they call god a liar because god himself vindicated the truth of his son and so there is no trusting of the father outside of his son.

No, it is disbelieving that the NT is the Word of God. I do not unconditionally accept anything written in the Bible as being the Truth.

this is not unlike saying that muslims do not trust the muslim deity because they also place their faith in the sunnah of the islamic prophet. yet the islamic deity himself testifies to the truth of the sunnah of muhammad and so there is no trusting of allah while rejecting the sunnah of muhammad. as such, the same logic applies.

Yes, there is similarity in that I accept the Quran as the Word of Allah (swt) and I accept the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws) as being accurate in conveying Muhammad's (saaws) example for how we are to live our lives. I accept the Quran 3:31 "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If you love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

please at the very least consider if what you say isn't equally detrimental to your position before posting it as a sustained attack on the tenets of christianity.

How is what I have written "detrimental to my position"?

[MustafaMc]

Brother Mustafa, even the least practicing Muslim will have bismi Allahi ir-Rahmani ir-Raheem on his lips many times in a day and much more often in his thoughts.

You are exactly correct and only 1 surah does not have those very words at the beginning. The Gracious Quran translates these attributes of Allah (swt) as The All Merciful, The Mercy Giving. We live our lives according to the sunnah of Muhammad (saaws), but we all trust in Allah (swt) to have mercy on us and to forgive us of our sins. We strive for perfection in our deen, but none of us claim to have reached a state of perfection where we don't have to pray, fast, give charity, or make pilgrimage. We obey Allah (swt) and we put our trust in the promise He has made so many times in the Quran such as 5:9 "Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward."

[MustafaMc]

from my reading there does seem to be a very real balancing of good deeds versus bad deeds which wouldn't really be possible if the muslim deity had forgiven all bad deeds anyway.

Yes, there is a balancing of deeds on the Day of Judgment, but our sense of balance and 'fairness' does not apply. The testimony of "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Servant and Messenger of Allah" will be the heaviest deed on the scale.

furthermore, how much do we really know of our intentions? even our best intentions are always marred by some sense of selfishness, pride etc.

I fully agree hence our inability to judge even our own hearts and to know if Allah (swt) will have mercy on us or punish us. The intention determines the merit or demerit of every deed. We have a balance between hope in the Mercy and fear of the Wrath of Allah (swt) as we live our lives and those 2 things do flavor the good we do and the bad we abstain from.

[Sol Invictus]

@ Sol
---I have to disagree---God does not punish the innocent......( I want to look up the verse that explains this concept.....but need some time)
The story of Prophet Noah (pbuh) in the Quran is about God punishing ONLY those who deserved it---and those who did NOT deserve it were not punished----However, these stories (this and others like it) are not about "punishments" ---they are about cleansing. As the Quran explains, there are times that world is so overgrown with inequity and injustice that the good suffer and cry out to God. He is most compassionate and merciful and sends Guidance so that those in error can come to right. Only when this guidance is rejected in favor of inequity, injustice, oppression, does God intervene so that the good/goodness may have a chance to grow. It is man that must make the choice between good and evil---the gift of free-will comes with that responsibility..........

with all due respect siam, you prove nothing with your post. are you seriously going to tell me that no babies died along with all the polytheists in the flood? if babies did in fact drown in the flood then my argument does stand and we then have a deity who has, and in fact recurringly punishes individuals for the sins of others. if one is punished for the sins of another then it follows that they have taken on the sins of the other. i will note that it is telling that you have not tried to disprove this point but merely to claim ignorance on the matter.

From these quotes I understand that the Christian plan of salvation is to accept the free gift of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross as the only possible means of reconciliation with God. You are, of course, free to outline your own personal understanding of the Christian plan of salvation.

i don't know if you wrote this to contradict what i had said but if you have, then in what way have you disproved what i have said?

No, it is disbelieving that the NT is the Word of God. I do not unconditionally accept anything written in the Bible as being the Truth.

once again i do not see how what you have said actually goes against anything i have said in my post so far.

How is what I have written "detrimental to my position"?

because you just agreed that the muslim position is to believe in the sunnah of the islamic prophet along with the words of allah because allah himself testified on the truth and goodness of the sunnah. to not believe in the sunnah of muhammad is in fact to call the muslim deity a liar seeing as he provides his own testimony as to the "usefulnnes" of the sunnah. in the same manner the christian position is to trust in the blood of jesus because the father himself gave his testimony on the "usefulness" of christ's sacrifice:

The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. --- 1 John 5:10-12 NIV

so your claim that christians trust in christ instead of wholly trusting in god is actually detrimental to your own position because you also trust in muhammad instead of wholly trusting in god yet when we realize that according to our respective scriptures, to trust in the messenger is the same as to trust in god then the problem is resolved and given that you were once a christian i would have hoped that you could call this into remembrance before making your post.

(it should however be noted that the above isn't perfectly true seeing as since christians believe that jesus is himself god then they only trust in god in the first place and muslims trust in god and a human but we need not go there with this discussion.)

I fully agree hence our inability to judge even our own hearts and to know if Allah (swt) will have mercy on us or punish us. The intention determines the merit or demerit of every deed. We have a balance between hope in the Mercy and fear of the Wrath of Allah (swt) as we live our lives and those 2 things do flavor the good we do and the bad we abstain from.

i agree as well but given that we will never really know the truth about our intentions, this still does not save the muslim from the force of my argument.

[siam]

@Sol ---I may not have explained well---you did not understand what I was trying to say......

From your perspective death = punishment. I do not hold that perspective. Babies, children, young adults, and good people die all the time. It matters not if there is a flood or other natural disasters.......

God is neither wrathful, nor unjust, nor arbitrary.......He does not punish anyone for the sins of another. Each individual human is responsible for their actions/choices

[Sol Invictus]

@Sol ---I may not have explained well---you did not understand what I was trying to say......

From your perspective death = punishment. I do not hold that perspective. Babies, children, young adults, and good people die all the time. It matters not if there is a flood or other natural disasters.......

God is neither wrathful, nor unjust, nor arbitrary.......He does not punish anyone for the sins of another. Each individual human is responsible for their actions/choices

no, from my perspective death does not necessarily entail punishment but rather in a case such as the story of the flood, this conclusion cannot be denied. read the story of noah in the qur'an. the muslim deity is quite clear in the fact that the flood was in order to punish the polytheists:

And indeed We sent Nuh (Noah) to his people (and he said): I have come to you as a plain warner. That you worship none but Allah, surely, I fear for you the torment of a painful Day. [...] And it was inspired to Nuh (Noah): None of your people will believe except those who have believed already. So be not sad because of what they used to do. And construct the ship under Our Eyes and with Our Inspiration, and address Me not on behalf of those who did wrong; they are surely to be drowned. And as he was constructing the ship, whenever the chiefs of his people passed by him, they made a mockery of him. He said: If you mock at us, so do we mock at you likewise for your mocking. And you will know who it is on whom will come a torment that will cover him with disgrace and on whom will fall a lasting torment. (So it was) till then there came Our Command and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And none believed with him, except a few. — Surah 11: 25-26; 36-40 Muhsin Khan (emphasis mine)

And they have said: ‘You shall not leave your gods, nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwa’, nor Yaghuth, nor Ya’uq, nor Nasr (names of the idols); And indeed they have led many astray. And (O Allah): ‘Grant no increase to the Zalimun (polytheists, wrong-doers, and disbelievers, etc.) save error. Because of their sins they were drowned, then were made to enter the Fire, and they found none to help them instead of Allah. — Surah 71:23-25 Muhsin Khan (emphasis mine)

if you disagree with the above could you then find me a verse from the qur'an which says that the flood wasn't called in order to punish the polytheists? notice how the muslim deity even says that those who have sinned will be drowned? so the qur'an doesn't agree with your revisionism and it is a fact that the flood was due to the sins of the polytheists and in order to punish these sinners. the problem then becomes that allah also drowned a multitude of innocent children whom have never engaged in polytheism and who are wholly pure according to islam. this is clearly a case of individuals being punished for the sins of others (something that muslims decry as wrong) and in fact bearing the sins of others for how can one be punished for another person's sin without first having this sin be imputed on them?

the qur'an quite clearly presents us with a deity who claims that he does not engage in vicarious punishment yet his very own actions testify to the contrary. he has in the past, and in fact regularly punishes individuals for the sins of others. now we should remember that muslims are quick to say that it is wholly wrong for an individual to be punished for the sins of another (and with certain caveats the christian can certainly agree to this) and as such quite ironically, muslims themselves acknowledge that their deity is immoral. you will note that i have not said anything of my own but have merely repeated what the general muslim opinion is (as can be seen whenever the topic of the atonement creeps up) and if you are offended by this then it certainly cannot be my fault given that this is simply the logical outworking of what muslims themselves say. i will note that in your post you asserted your mere opinion while i have relied on what the muslim deity has said and done. there is no question as to whose post is in keeping with the character of the muslim deity.

[siam]

Sol---This is not in respose to your post----You are free to believe as you please.
I just find the question interesting because I also had the same question and looked to the Quran for an answer.---But the Quran has to be understood as a whole because themes are intertwined. (for reference read Surah 89 Al-Fajr)

1) death is not a punishment and life is not a reward.
Our life on earth is a time of test/trial. Both blessings and sufferring are a test/trial. The more blessings God bestows---the moe responsibility comes with it. therefore, a person who has been given more wealth than others, has more responsibility to share that wealth with the needy than a person who has not been given wealth.
Compared to the vast time scale of the universe, an individuals time on earth (from birth to death) is very very tiny. The amount of time (long or short) each individual will spend on earth is decided by God.


2) We will be held accountable only to the extent of our responsibilty.
An innocent baby will not be held accountable as it has not commited any sins. A young child who has not developed an adequate capacity of discernment cannot be held accountable for what is could not know. An adult with free-will and full intellectual capacity must be held accountable for his/her intentions and actions---because such an individual cannot use the excuse "I did not know". Our time on earth is a test/trial so that we can use our free-will to decide for ourselves if we choose to be rewarded or punished. This is the gift of free-will---to be empowered to choose our ultmite desitny---but with it comes the responsibility that we will be held accountable for all our choices and Judged. God is Just. His Justice is tempered with Compassion and Mercy.(Grace)
(Surah 2 verse 281--And fear the day when you shall be brought back to God.Then shall every soul be paid what it has earned and none shall be dealt with unjustly)

3) Hell is the punishment and Paradise is the reward.
Our life is a test/trail and our death is the termination of this period of test/trail. The length of an individual life, accumulates good deeds and bad deeds and we will be judged Justly. A longer life accumulates more, a shorter life accumulates less. Our blessings come with responsibility, but our sufferring is also balanced by extra blessings/rewards. Our destiny is the life after Judgement. If we have chosen to follow the Guidance given by God---we have chosen the path to Paradise. If we have Chosen to reject that Guidance for the sake of creating "mischief" in the world---we have chosen the path to hell. (However, God is most compassionate and merciful to those who turn to him in repentence)

What was the "punishment" of those who drowned at the time of Prophet Noah(pbuh)?
The people who chose to disregard the Guidance (to goodness)given by God to Prophet Noah(pbuh) made the decision of their own free-will. God is compassionate and merciful and he gave them a warning and an oppurtunity to come to goodness and be Guided---to abandon, oppression, injustice, immorality ...etc. Their death terminated their time on earth---and this means they were no longer given any more time to repent. This was the "punishment" They died in a state of unrepentant arrogance and pride.
(Surah 3 verse 102---O you who believe, Fear God as he should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam) note: Fear= Taqwa(love of God) and "state of Islam"=in a state of submission to God.
(see also Surah 3 verse 134-139--God forgives those who do wrong)

God's Compassion and Mercy.
Those who did heed the message of Prophet Noah(pbuh) of their own free-will, were ALL "saved" from drowning. They were people who choose goodness over evil and they were given a chance to continue with their period of time on earth. With this came the responsibility of nurturing and spreading the goodness and Guidance on earth so that it could build strong roots in society.


God is not arbitrary.
In our time on earth---God provides sustenance and blessings to those who are good as well as those who are "wrongdoers". This is because God is Compassionate and Merciful and gives everyone a chance to repent. Once our life is over, this chance is gone. Our time on earth (short or long) is for God to decide---not us---it is not the manner of death that is important but the life-choices we have made in our time on earth. Those who have had no opportunity to make any life-choices (such as babies) have no accountability/judgement. God simply takes them back to himself. All of us have been created with a purpose. The purpose of Human beings is to do God's will=which is, Right belief that inspires to right intentions that lead to right actions for the benefit of all God's creations. We can choose to do so, or we can reject to do so.....But sometimes, the world is so overrun with evil, that good people have no chance to do God's will. So God intervenes. But he does so with justice. He sends Messengers/Warners and Guidance so people will come to goodness. Natural disasters happen all the time and many people suffer and /or die---but an act of intervention is not "Wrath" it is cleansing. God cleanses the particular place of those who persist in evil so that goodness can grow. Not all natural disasters are an "intervention". God only takes action when it is absolutely necessary and only after warners/messengers and Guidance has been given, and those who have chosen goodness are unharmed--not as a "reward" but as a responsibilty---so that they can nurture goodness and make it grow strong.

[Ramadhan]

............
Natural disasters happen all the time and many people suffer and /or die---but an act of intervention is not "Wrath" it is cleansing. God cleanses the particular place of those who persist in evil so that goodness can grow. Not all natural disasters are an "intervention". God only takes action when it is absolutely necessary and only after warners/messengers and Guidance has been given, and those who have chosen goodness are unharmed--not as a "reward" but as a responsibilty---so that they can nurture goodness and make it grow strong.

Excellent explanation.
I just want to add. the Qur'an also says that there are also believers and people who do good who die among natural disasters.
But in ahadeeths, Rasulullah SAW explained that deaths from natural disasters (drowning, etc) for the believers serve as expiation for their sins so they will have better accounts during yaumul qiyamah (day of the judgement).