Libya Protests

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

Hundreds of people have clashed with police and government supporters in the Libyan city of Benghazi.

More protests!

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

I would be protesting too.

^ Who would want a leader like this?

He himself has been in power for 42 years, making him the Arab world's longest serving ruler.

I would go mad living in Libya. How can anyone tolerate this man? He is full of rubbish!

[CosmicPathos]

lol he has some orgy thing going on about women in uniform? lol

[GuestFellow]

^ Salaam

I don't think I want to know...

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[Maryan0]

Is Muammar Gaddafi all that bad? He's strange and I think he has probably gone senile but he is not the worst of them.
Salam

[Nájlá]

Around 84 people already killed in the protests.... I thought the Libyan people really liked the Gadaffi :/

May Allah protect our brothers and sisters in Libya, jordan, Yemen and all over the world. Aameen the Ummah is finally waking up.

[Skunkman]

I hope Jordan Abdallah and Rania will fall, Insha'Allah.

Libya is and will always be the most random sandy land.

[Danah]

This is strange! all of what I heard about Qaddafi is good, they said that he is giving his people a good share of the country's wealth. I heard also that any Libyan have a fixed salary since he born till he die! He always call for the unity of Middle east countries
Do we have any Libyan members here? we need to confirm such info.
Keep in mind that his supporters are way more than the protesters.

[aadil77]

The situation in libya is much worse than any of the arab countries so far, people are being shot by anti-aircraft missiles, crushed by tanks and being shot as they pray salatul janaza for dead protesters

[Trumble]

lol he has some orgy thing going on about women in uniform? lol

I reckon. No way is that girl in the middle wearing standard issue army boots!

[Zuzubu]

It's a cool uniform he's wearing, I didn't know arabs used hearts in their clothes mark.

[Trumble]

Starting to look very bad in Libya, now. imsad

[aadil77]

220 dead....

[Zuzubu]

If it can cause a united Ummah, then let millions of people die in that cause.

[جوري]

Is Muammar Gaddafi all that bad? He's strange and I think he has probably gone senile but he is not the worst of them. Salam

He is a freaking clown, he is eradicating his 'subjects' by planes.. I don't think the 'peaceful protest' thing will work in the middle east.. we need khalid ibn ilwaleed to bring us the heads of those despots and hang them from the citadel.
They don't think of their countrymen as humans rather animals that they must beat into submission while kowtowing to westerners..I am so sick of all of them collectively and I don't know when this misery and oppression will be over.. truly I am just giving up that I'll see change in my life.. sob7an Allah

[aadil77]

If it can cause a united Ummah, then let millions of people die in that cause.

More like; if its for the sake of Allah, then let millions die and for that cause

['Abd Al-Maajid]

What will all these protests and uprising lead to? why only Arabian countries are experiencing this though russia had a peaceful protests? what are we going to see in near future? what are the arabs think they are doing? what exactly they want?
^ these questions baffle me...:-\

[Dagless]

It's a cool uniform he's wearing, I didn't know arabs used hearts in their clothes mark.

Even if people thought he was an ok ruler before, what he's doing now is horrific (killing his own people, not the pic).

[Maryan0]

He is a freaking clown, he is eradicating his 'subjects' by planes.. I don't think the 'peaceful protest' thing will work in the middle east.. we need khalid ibn ilwaleed to bring us the heads of those despots and hang them from the citadel.
They don't think of their countrymen as humans rather animals that they must beat into submission while kowtowing to westerners..I am so sick of all of them collectively and I don't know when this misery and oppression will be over.. truly I am just giving up that I'll see change in my life.. sob7an Allah

I think if Hosni Mubarak was overthrown than there is hope everywhere inshallah. I'm very happy that the Arab world has woken up and even if the peaceful protests dont work everywhere it is still a momentous thing for the people to stand up like they are doing today and inshallah this will be a habringer of these tyrants downfall whether through peaceful protest or armed struggle. The fall of 2 tyrants in the Arab world has definitely served as a wake up call for the rest of them...I've always liked Muammer Ghaddafi but what is going in Libya is very sad and it does show Ghaddafi's disregard for the lives of his people.
Salam

[Woodrow]

Like many others I also liked Qaddafi even though I usually disagreed with things he said and did.. It saddens to see him now acting like a tyrant.

[Ramadhan]

Well, he's truly gone insane now

[جوري]

I think if Hosni Mubarak was overthrown than there is hope everywhere inshallah. I'm very happy that the Arab world has woken up and even if the peaceful protests dont work everywhere it is still a momentous thing for the people to stand up like they are doing today and inshallah this will be a habringer of these tyrants downfall whether through peaceful protest or armed struggle. The fall of 2 tyrants in the Arab world has definitely served as a wake up call for the rest of them...I've always liked Muammer Ghaddafi but what is going in Libya is very sad and it does show Ghaddafi's disregard for the lives of his people. Salam

Mubarak isn't gone that is why the people keep protesting every friday.. Mubarak and his goons have started this under-ground counter-revolution and they've everything, the army, money and roots in evil, Israel sending them sniping weapons.. they're very calculating.. I don't think that peaceful protests are working at all.. and believe me America is supporting them.. America has vetoed against 14 countries to enable Israel to build more colonies in Palestine as we write.. you think they're really a friend to Egypt? It isn't that simple I am afraid.. all I can hope for is that people's intentions be true to God because that is the only way we'll overcome this evil which is surrounding us from every side..

:w:

[Maryan0]

Mubarak isn't gone that is why the people keep protesting every friday.. Mubarak and his goons have started this under-ground counter-revolution and they've everything, the army, money and roots in evil, Israel sending them sniping weapons.. they're very calculating.. I don't think that peaceful protests are working at all.. and believe me America is supporting them.. America has vetoed against 14 countries to enable Israel to build more colonies in Palestine as we write.. you think they're really a friend to Egypt? It isn't that simple I am afraid.. all I can hope for is that people's intentions be true to God because that is the only way we'll overcome this evil which is surrounding us from every side..

:w:

I thought Mubarak was gone and the people were protesting other members of the Mubarak regime who still hold power? but if he is indeed still running everything behind the scenes than it cant be good.
America is the friend of the tyrants who run the Arab world but they are most definitely not the friends of the people even if they would like to make it seem that way when they see the dictators they prop up being removed by the people.
Salam

[جوري]

I thought Mubarak was gone and the people were protesting other members of the Mubarak regime who still hold power? but if he is indeed still running everything behind the scenes than it cant be good. America is the friend of the tyrants who run the Arab world but they are most definitely not the friends of the people even if they would like to make it seem that way when they see the dictators they prop up being removed by the people. Salam

this guy shafeeq you know the idiot who said to the human rights people 'it wasn't intended my dear' and hung up after feigning not understanding the question and claiming a bad connection thereafter, him, omar suliman, mubarak's monkey of a son all of them are doing underground things.. the police are still as brutal as ever, and I really think in someway he's waiting for the right moment to pounce back, for now he is enjoying caviar in his seaside resort while keeping abreast of what is going on.

Those people in totality who are sitting in power and in seats which they didn't earn must be removed from their seats and that will prove difficult.. I am just hoping all the chaos over the middle east will throw the U.S into a tizzy until we get our affairs in order..

we just have to watch and wait for now..and make du3a.. but I believe that there will be no going back to what was insha'Allah.. I am hopeful for Yemen and libya..

:w:

[Al-manar]

This is strange! all of what I heard about Qaddafi is good, they said that he is giving his people a good share of the country's wealth. I heard also that any Libyan have a fixed salary since he born till he die! He always call for the unity of Middle east countries

Exactly sister ..... Though I welcome any revolution in whatever Arab country , I'm against the Lybian case .....

what happens now in Lybia is a disgrace with all the meaning of the word......

but let's say it is their choice ,just let them try what the awful capitalism would lead them too .... similar to what happened in Egypt before.....

[جوري]

actually he hardly gives anything to the tribes that he has, perhaps token amount and the rest he squanders on his stupidities.. do you think any level of frivolity is acceptable from that clown also who said that 'capitalism' is the alternative? Libya after all is the birthplace of Umar Al-Mukhtār and we're all hoping for an Islamic khalifate insha'Allah-- we should be against the bahraini protests as they're 70% shiia and Iran already owns areas in the region.. but Libya like the rest of the middle east needs to rid itself of that bizarre donkey!

[جوري]

for this not familiar with Umar.. let me share a brief introduction courtesy of wiki:

Early life

Omar Mukhtar was born in eastern Cyrenaica, Al Butnan District, in the village of East Janzur east of Tobruk. He was orphaned early and was adopted by Sharif El Gariani nephew of Hussein Ghariani, a political-religious leader in Cyrenaica. He received his early education at the local mosque and then studied for eight years at the Senussi university at Al-Jaghbub, which was also the headquarters of the Senussi Movement. In 1899 he was sent with other Senussi to assist Rabih az-Zubayr in the resistance in Chad against the French.
[edit] Italian invasion

Main articles: Italo-Turkish War and Italian Libya
In October 1911, during the Italo-Turkish War, an Italian naval contingent under the command of Admiral Luigi Faravelli reached the shores of Libya, then a territory subject to Ottoman Turkish control. The admiral demanded that the Libyans surrender their territory to the Italians or incur the immediate destruction of the city of Tripoli. The Libyans fled instead of surrendering, and the Italians bombarded the city for three days, then proclaimed the Tripolitanians to be "committed and strongly bound to Italy." This marked the beginning of a series of battles between the Italian colonial forces and the Libyan armed opposition under Omar Mukhtar.
[edit] Guerrilla warfare

Main articles: Libyan resistance and History of Libya as Italian Colony
A teacher of the Qur'an by profession, Mukhtar was also skilled in the strategies and tactics of desert warfare. He knew local geography well and used that knowledge to advantage in battles against the Italians, who were unaccustomed to desert warfare. Mukhtar repeatedly led his small, highly alert groups in successful attacks against the Italians, after which they would fade back into the desert terrain. Mukhtar’s men skillfully attacked outposts, ambushed troops, and cut lines of supply and communication. The Italian army was left astonished and embarrassed by his guerrilla tactics.
In the mountainous region of Ghebel Akhdar ("Green Mountain") in 1924, Italian Governor Ernesto Bombelli created a counter-guerrilla force that inflicted a severe setback to rebel forces in April, 1925. Mukhtar then quickly modified his own tactics and was able to count on continued help from Egypt. In March, 1927, despite occupation of Giarabub from February 1926 and increasingly stringent rule under Governor Attilio Teruzzi, Mukhtar surprised Italian troops at Raheiba. Between 1927 and 1928, Mukhtar fully reorganized the Senusite forces, who were being hunted constantly by the Italians. Even General Teruzzi recognized Omar's qualities of "exceptional perseverance and strong will power."
Pietro Badoglio, governor of Libya from January 1929, after extensive negotiations concluded a compromise with Mukhtar (described by the Italians as his complete submission) similar to previous Italo-Senusite accords. At the end of October, 1929, Mukhtar denounced the compromise and reëstablished a unity of action among Libyan forces, preparing himself for the ultimate confrontation with General Rodolfo Graziani, Italian military commander from March 1930.
A massive offensive in June against Mukhtar's forces having failed, Graziani, in full accord with Badoglio, Emilio De Bono (minister of the colonies), and Benito Mussolini, initiated a plan to break Cyrenian resistance: the hundred-thousand population of Gebel would be moved to concentration camps on the coast and the Libyan-Egyptian border from the coast at Giarabub would be closed, preventing any foreign help to the fighters and depriving them of support from the native population. These measures, which Graziani initiated early in 1931, took their toll on the Senusite resistance. The rebels were deprived of help and reinforcements, spied upon, hit by Italian aircraft, and pursued on the ground by the Italian forces aided by local informers and collaborators. Mukhtar continued to struggle despite increased hardships and risks, but on September 11, 1931, he was ambushed near Zonta.
Mukhtar's final adversary, Italian General Rodolfo Graziani, has given a description of the Senusite leader that is not lacking in respect: "Of medium height, stout, with white hair, beard and mustache. Omar was endowed with a quick and lively intelligence; was knowledgeable in religious matters, and revealed an energetic and impetuous character, unselfish and uncompromising; ultimately, he remained very religious and poor, even though he had been one of the most important Senusist figures."
[edit] Capture and execution

Omar Mokhtar's arrest


Mukhtar’s struggle of nearly twenty years came to an end on September 11, 1931, when he was wounded in battle, then captured by the Italian army. The Italians treated the native leader hero as a prize catch. His resilience had an impact on his jailers, who later remarked upon his steadfastness. His interrogators stated that Mukhtar recited verses of peace from the Qur'an.
In three days, Mukhtar was tried, convicted, and, on September 14, 1931, sentenced to be hanged publicly (historians and scholars have questioned whether his trial was fair or impartial[2]). When asked if he wished to say any last words, Mukhtar replied with a Qur'anic phrase: "Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un." ("To God we belong and to Him we shall return."). On September 16, 1931, on the orders of the Italian court and with Italian hopes that Libyan resistance would die with him, Mukhtar was hanged before his followers in the concentration camp of Solluqon at the age of 70 years.[3]
that is what we should aspire to, not these despotic monkeys that are running the show!!!



:w:

[Al-manar]

Have anyone heard of a hungry Lybian riding the boats of death through the Mediterranean Sea?

and that is where we get the economic situation there , indeed there is economical justice there ...and he tried by all means to improve it .....

I won't go on calculating the positives of the man (so much) .... or his negatives (less than any other Arab leader) ....

Just I don't believe it is wise what the masses do in Lybia now..... If they will succeed in overthrowing him ,they will regret it in the future....

[Cabdullahi]

Have anyone heard of a hungry Lybian riding the boats of death through the Mediterranean Sea?

and that is where we get the economic situation there , indeed there is economical justice there ...and he tried by all means to improve it .....

I won't go on calculating the positives of the man (so much) .... or his negatives (less than any other Arab leader) ....

Just I don't believe it is wise what the masses do in Lybia now..... If they will succeed in overthrowing him ,they will regret it in the future....

You must be a Libyan

[جوري]

Have anyone heard of a hungry Lybian riding the boats of death through the Mediterranean Sea? and that is where we get the economic situation there , indeed there is economical justice there ...and he tried by all means to improve it ..... I won't go on calculating the positives of the man (so much) .... or his negatives (less than any other Arab leader) .... Just I don't believe it is wise what the masses do in Lybia now..... If they will succeed in overthrowing him ,they will regret it in the future....

They don't need to, they're riding the seas of blood on land, these revolts aren't only about the economic situation, furthermore, many Libyans are indeed tribal and don't care for the cash flow to wear heart studded jilbabs like their clown or a president. It for political reasons. Ghadafi did say ''ana ba3d Allah' istghfor Allah il3atheem.. this is a person that people will regret losing? Please give me a break!
Libya like the rest of the Middle east needs to revolt now and we need to rise as one ummah not colonially divided countries.. That is and should be the underlying purpose of these revolts. Not whether I can get a job and squander my oil rich country's money!

[Al-manar]

You must be a Libyan

I'm their neighbour ,yet know well the situation ,whether there or any other Arab country ...

[جوري]

I'm their neighbour ,yet know well the situation ,whether there or any other Arab country ...

If you're living in Italy then frankly you're far removed from the wants of the people!

:w:

[Al-manar]

you're living in Italy

:w:

most of my life I lived in my Arab country , and It wasn't because of al-Gaddafi , or someone like him ,the reason I left my country....
anyway sooner or later I will be back to my country Inshallah .....

[جوري]

most of my life I lived in my Arab country , and It wasn't because of al-Gaddafi , or someone like him ,the reason I left my country.... anyway sooner or later I will be back to my country Inshallah .....

It isn't the issue.. all the land belongs to Allah swt.. it is about what is practical in the here and now juxtaposed on your theoretical view of how things are!

:w:

[Salahudeen]

I heard all telecomunications have been cut in Libiya.

[Al-manar]

Libya like the rest of the Middle east needs to revolt now and we need to rise as one ummah not colonially divided countries.. That is and should be the underlying purpose of these revolts.

If they succeed in overthrowing the man who offered 15 projects for unity(from the 60's till the 90's) and the other leaders failed to cooperate ,and that is the underlying purpose of these revolts ,then let's say the revolts are purposeless ....

[جوري]

If they succeed in overthrowing the man who offered 15 projects for unity(from the 60's till the 90's) and the other leaders failed to cooperate ,and that is the underlying purpose of these revolts ,then let's say the revolts are purposeless ....

If the ailing monkey catches pneumonia and drops dead tomorrow then keeping him on the throne is also purposeless contrary to his own opinion of outliving god and abolishing fridays he is a mere mortal bound to drop dead but his mental status has been long dead, he has also managed to alienate everyone in the region unless he's making alliance with some africa nation perhaps the Congo or Zimbabwe to shed the blood of his own people? unless you're suggesting that he bequeath the throne to is to his moronic son? Sooner or later the Libyans will have to find themselves a new leader and let's pray that Allah swt blesses them with another Umar al mukhtar .. we've all had enough of monkeys and clowns!

:w:

[Al-manar]

Sooner or later the Libyans will have to find themselves a new leader and let's pray that Allah swt blesses them with another Umar al mukhtar ..
:w:

I wish them all the best too , and the legacy of Omar mukhtar is living ...and still the film telling that legacy of that man ,Lion of the Desert 1981 (the film that Moummar Quaddafi financed $30 million ), to be one of the most watched in the Arab word...

[جوري]

I wish them all the best too , and the legacy of Omar mukhtar is living ...and still the film telling that legacy of that man ,Lion of the Desert 1981 (the film that Moummar Quaddafi financed $30 million ), to be one of the most watched in the Arab word...

Well let's have faithful Muslims in actuality not in the movies shoulder the responsibility of this ummah, which I believe is far better than reminiscing about our greatness.. the greatness wasn't ours it is theirs.. they're a people that have offered what they'd and died.. what have we offered? movies .. I haven't personally seen the movie so I think 30 million dollars on actors is utter frivolity walhi.
Anyhow his own tribal leaders are turning against him now so it comes down to what the libyans want!

:w:

[Al-manar]

. I haven't personally seen the movie so I think 30 million dollars on actors is utter frivolity walhi.
:w:

I think the story of Omar Almokhtar merits more than 30 millions to be told to muslims and non-muslims (who may have no idea about him) through important medieum as the screen.....

the foto of Omar on the Lybian 10 Dinars

May God bless his soul ,and all the martyrs ...Ameen

[جوري]

I think the story of Omar Almokhtar merits more than 30 millions to be told to muslims and non-muslims (who may have no idea about him) through important medieum as the screen..... the foto of Omar on the Lybian 10 Dinars

question is what Umar himself would have done with thirty million? No one in the western world really cares for anything out of the middle east unless it is oil or scandal that they can use to further their agenda.. maybe 30 million doesn't have a ring to it to deep pockets but to many Muslims living on less than two dollars a day or in war torn countries, that money would be better invested in food or armor to liberate them..

:w:

[Al-manar]

No one in the western world really cares for anything out of the middle east unless it is oil or scandal that they can use to further their agenda..
:w:

I used to believe in the theory of conspiracy before leaving Egypt , now I no longer believe in it, as the reason of the Arab world failure ..... the failure comes from within .... we used to blame everything on the west .... while the blame is on us ..

who failed the the projects of muslim unity unless the muslims themselves? who that who own milliards of dollars ,yet can neither produce a scientific project to get the world's respect ,nor build a military power ,in order to be taken into account his decisions.... etc....

I can go on my criticism ..... but enough ..... I don't like to criticise people .....

It was a nice discussion with you Sis τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ ,and I pray that God provide us all with the spirit of brotherhood and mutual respect .. Ameen

Have a nice day

peace

[جوري]

I used to believe in the theory of conspiracy before leaving Egypt , now I no longer believe in it, as the reason of the Arab world failure ..... the failure comes from within .... we used to blame everything on the west .... while the blame is on us ..

who failed the the projects of muslim unity unless the muslims themselves? who that who own milliards of dollars ,yet can neither produce a scientific project to get the world's respect ,nor build a military power ,in order to be taken into account his decisions.... etc....

I can go on my criticism ..... but enough ..... I don't like to criticise people .....

It was a nice discussion with you Sis τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ ,and I pray that God provide us all with the spirit of brotherhood and mutual respect .. Ameen

Have a nice day

peace

conspiracy theory? Our failures in the Muslim world are multifactorial. There is alot of blame on us but there is alot of blame on the people who have vested interest to keep us as such, and all we need to do is turn on our ten o'clock news as they make their plans for the middle east known aloud. Now here is a real chance to rid ourselves of despots and reclaim our former glory and all you can do it sit there and nip it in the bud and call it a conspiracy theory? People want change and they're working toward it, in spite of massive tidal waves from the left and the right.. they have nothing but their 3azeema, no weaponry, no army, no money, just truth on their side and they're moving mountains.. the least we can do is support them on their endeavors.

It isn't the Muslim people that have signed on for peace treaties or foreign bases, or for pan arabism or to march against other Muslims, or out of nuclear research. It is despots instated by colonialists and there is no denying it.
Yes we've failed, but we're trying against all odds, let's at least cultivate that effort!

:w:

[Danah]

It's really shocking! It's as if all what we used to hear about Libya nothing but lies!!
The scense of the dead bodies in streets is awful!! I can agree that Qadafi was suggesting good union projects for the middle east, but what about his own people? What did he do for them?

I think not all Libyans were living a good life. It seems that there were specific groups preffered over others I think their media was generalizing and only showing those who always get support from Qaddafi!

May Allah grant all the ummah peace!

[Asiyah3]

Qadafi out. His murdering his people says it all. I hope the soldiers will take the people's side.

May Allah protect the people, and remove him and all unjust rulers from power and replace them with better.

[Ghazalah]

The army/police are using forbidden weapons against the protesters. Did anyone watch Al-Jazeera Arabic yesterday? A Libyan doctor from London said some of his colleagues have been stating that the bullets used on the protesters are forbidden, once they enter the body they explode, leaving the victim no chance of survival, even if he was shot in the leg or arm etc.

SubhanAllah these people are worse than animals.
Ameen to the addiyah above.

[Zuzubu]

I can understand him a bit. He will do anything to stay in power. Even kill everyone. ;)

[Hannah.]

Have any of you guys seen the graphic video of soldiers being burned to death by Gadaffi? They were burned only because they didn't want to kill their people. That is just utterly inhumane. He should be executed at all costs. Please everyone make dua for the Libyan people! :(

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Way to many people are dying...

[Maryan0]

Have any of you guys seen the graphic video of soldiers being burned to death by Gadaffi? They were burned only because they didn't want to kill their people. That is just utterly inhumane. He should be executed at all costs. Please everyone make dua for the Libyan people! :(

I did not see this video but that's horrible. May Allah have mercy on those who've died. Khaddafi is acting like an animal and it's a shame that for all I've heard of him he has become this. Even if the people give up now the resentment and anger he has caused will not go away.
Salam

[GuestFellow]

Khaddafi has gone crazy. He has officially lost it. I hope his female bodyguards give him a good thrashing!!!

[Woodrow]

Have any of you guys seen the graphic video of soldiers being burned to death by Gadaffi? They were burned only because they didn't want to kill their people. That is just utterly inhumane. He should be executed at all costs. Please everyone make dua for the Libyan people! :(

While I agree Qaddafi has probably gone completely insane and there is a possibility the video is true. I do not think we should place too much stock into the validity of a home video, posted on youtube. I am not an expert and know little about forensic investigations, but I have seen burned bodies and those do not resemble any burned body I have ever seen. I do not see the charred skulls that would normally be seen in a fire hot enough to burn off the flesh and inner organs. If those are genuine bodies they look to be what a typical decayed body looks like.

[Maryan0]

Khaddafi has gone crazy. He has officially lost it. I hope his female bodyguards give him a good thrashing!!!

He really has. I just saw his speech and he really doesnt look like he's sane.
Salam

[titus]

Khaddafi has gone crazy. He has officially lost it.

That happened long long ago.

[Ghazalah]

Did anyone see him with an umbrella? Lol, he said this proves I'm in Libya and Venezuela, proves his insanity.

Qaradawi gave a speech on AlJazeera, saying those who are closest to him should kill him, and said he won't even mention his name, it's not worth the energy. I don't know what else Gaddafi has for him to cling on to.

Over 1000 dead in the space of how many days. :( La Howla Wa La Qoowata Illah Billahhil AliyulAtheem.

[جوري]

Anyone in Libya to tell us what is going on first hand pls?
I am keeping you in my du3a Libya along with the entire Muslim ummah insha'Allah.....

[Zuzubu]

Libyans have internet access?

Well I heard Gadaffi financed a film called The Message, and I like it a lot.

But is it really that hard to kill 1 man? Find him, pull up ur weapon, aim, pull the trigger?

[Woodrow]

Libyans have internet access?

Well I heard Gadaffi financed a film called The Message, and I like it a lot.

But is it really that hard to kill 1 man? Find him, pull up ur weapon, aim, pull the trigger?

It would be a very grave error for anybody to assassinate him. Not only from the view point of morality but also from the fact it would increase the zeal of his supporters. He would not have had this much power without strong supporters. Very often the visible leader (despot) is the catalyst and his supporters are the ones carrying out his demented ideas. If Qaddafi is killed he would become an eternal indestructible icon to his supporters and his regime would become stronger causing more hardships. His death by assassination would compound the problems, not solve them.

He needs to be overthrown, taken alive, arrested as a murderer and placed on trial openly before the people of Libya.

[Al-Mufarridun]

Libyans have internet access?

Well I heard Gadaffi financed a film called The Message, and I like it a lot.

But is it really that hard to kill 1 man? Find him, pull up ur weapon, aim, pull the trigger?

Perhaps you will volunteer, and get rid of this thorn from the Ummah?

[Al-Mufarridun]

It would be a very grave error for anybody to assassinate him. Not only from the view point of morality but also from the fact it would increase the zeal of his supporters. He would not have had this much power without strong supporters. Very often the visible leader (despot) is the catalyst and his supporters are the ones carrying out his demented ideas. If Qaddafi is killed he would become an eternal indestructible icon to his supporters and his regime would become stronger causing more hardships. His death by assassination would compound the problems, not solve them.

He needs to be overthrown, taken alive, arrested as a murderer and placed on trial openly before the people of Libya.

Good point!!

[Zuzubu]

No Mufarridun my job is to make a family, not to fight for weak people who can't help their own country.

Yes, it's better that thousands of people die, than Qaddafi, he is very important, right?

[جوري]

please download this file about Qadafi and Libya

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7mv72q


eye opening!

:w:

[Argamemnon]

Just read that the Dutch government is considering freezing Khadaffi's assets here in the Netherlands.

:w:

[ardianto]

How people of Babakan Madang, Indonesia can change this masjid name if money for build this masjid was given by Qaddafy ?

[جوري]

Yes safe for all those who wish to download and I really wish you'd see it, it is 47 mins but well worth it.. Hope brother Al-Manar sees it as well insha'Allah..
his own 'Green doctrine'
his own Quran
his killing of children
his killing of Muslims during Ramadan at the time of breaking fast
his allying with the west while killing his own
his hypocrisy when breaking ties with Switzerland who accused his thief of a son of thievery but not extending that to other places
his bombing of a Mosque..

open your eyes oh Muslims to the kaffir despots that you defend!

:w:

[Ghazalah]

Anyone been to the current protests in London?

I have a friend who lives in Libya and when she was telling me what it's like, gunfire can be heard non-stop, even over the athaan of Salatul Fajr :( May Allah protect those who who fighting in his way against the oppressors, ameen thumma ameen ya Rabb!

[Darth Ultor]

Is Muammar Gaddafi all that bad? He's strange and I think he has probably gone senile but he is not the worst of them.
Salam

Are you ****ing serious? This piece of **** had ordered his soldiers to rape women protesters. Not all bad? Are you nuts?

[Nájlá]

This man has lost it! Hasbi Allah wa na3mal wakeel May Allah protect the ummah from such people. Aameen

He needs to be killed!

[GuestFellow]

Are you ****ing serious? This piece of **** had ordered his soldiers to rape women protesters. Not all bad? Are you nuts?

That comment your responding to was posted six days ago...I'm sure her opinion has changed.

[Darth Ultor]

My apologies. I generally don't check dates on recent topics. In any case, Gaddafi needs to be separated from his head.

[Danah]

if anyone wants to get a high blood pressure then turn on any of the Libyans channels!! I feel sick everytime I watch any of them! All what they show are few people singing and holding pictures of their president....and they keep broadcasting libyans national songs all the day claiming that everything is alright there and that media (especially al jazeera) are trying to make a big noise out of what is happenning there!!!

May Allah protect all Muslims from harm! This is very sad wallahi

[Al-Mufarridun]

No Mufarridun my job is to make a family, not to fight for weak people who can't help their own country.

Lol. Very well.

[جوري]

if anyone wants to get a high blood pressure then turn on any of the Libyans channels!! I feel sick everytime I watch any of them! All what they show are few people singing and holding pictures of their president....and they keep broadcasting libyans national songs all the day claiming that everything is alright there and that media (especially al jazeera) are trying to make a big noise out of what is happenning there!!! May Allah protect all Muslims from harm! This is very sad wallahi

That is the ailing man's ammo.. Mubarak did it too they all do as if they follow some book step by step..
I feel like we're on the verge of the big war.. you know things are bound to spiral to hell and then a big huge war will break out.. one thing for sure.. there is no going back to the sheltered ivory tower now, not for any of us.. May Allah swt save us for a time of great tribulations and schisms is ahead.. it is real now like the stench of death on the streets.. the earth has tasted the blood of its children and I don't think what is to come will be good..

:w:

[Ghazalah]

This piece of **** had ordered his soldiers to rape women protesters.

Really, when did he say this?

[Güven]

its getting crazier each day.

[Zuzubu]

This man has lost it! Hasbi Allah wa na3mal wakeel May Allah protect the ummah from such people. Aameen

He needs to be killed!

Masha'Allah, words of wisdom.

[Argamemnon]

if anyone wants to get a high blood pressure then turn on any of the Libyans channels!! I feel sick everytime I watch any of them! All what they show are few people singing and holding pictures of their president....and they keep broadcasting libyans national songs all the day claiming that everything is alright there and that media (especially al jazeera) are trying to make a big noise out of what is happenning there!!!

May Allah protect all Muslims from harm! This is very sad wallahi

Are you Libyan yourself?

They have killed Turks too, Gaddafi and his gang have accused the Turkish government of instigating this revolt...

[Argamemnon]

That happened long long ago.

He is not much better than the likes of Netanyahu and Bush.

[Danah]

This man needs psychological treatment!! in his last speech today he was threatening that his supporters among the tribes will be armed to fight the protesters!! he literally said in his threatening tone:"Let the tribes get armed, Libya will be a red fire!!!"

Ya Allah when this nightmare will come to an end!! May Allah grant Libya peace and tranquility

Are you Libyan yourself?

No! what made you think so?

[Argamemnon]

No! what made you think so?

Because you said you were watching Libyan channels.

:w:

[GuestFellow]

Are you Libyan yourself?

They have killed Turks too, Gaddafi and his gang have accused the Turkish government of instigating this revolt...

:sl:

He accused Osama and the West too. He is looking to blame someone.

[Danah]

Because you said you were watching Libyan channels.

^ I just watch them from time to time to see how their media cover the events there, but no I am not Libyan

[Argamemnon]

:sl:

He accused Osama and the West too. He is looking to blame someone.

Osama, the West and Erdogan? :skeleton:

[GuestFellow]

Osama, the West and Erdogan? :skeleton:

:sl:

Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi has told state TV that Osama Bin Laden and his followers are to blame for the protests racking his country.

Sorry not the West but Osama.

I'm not sure about Erdogan.

[Trumble]

his allying with the west while killing his own

When was this, then?! Last I heard Gaddafi (a.k.a until recently everybody's favourite poster boy because he REALLY annoyed the Americans) was cosying up with his 'Western' chum Hugo Chavez calling for an "anti-imperialist front " and planning to establish a South Atlantic Treaty Organization to rival NATO. Granted the Americans did stop trying to actually kill the man a while ago, such attempts producing howls of indignation from his fans (most of whom we can safely assume were a long way away from Libya), but, well.. what 'alliance' is this then?

[جوري]

When was this, then?! Last I heard Gaddafi (a.k.a until recently everybody's favourite poster boy because he REALLY annoyed the Americans) was cosying up with his 'Western' chum Hugo Chavez calling for an "anti-imperialist front " and planning to establish a South Atlantic Treaty Organization to rival NATO. Granted the Americans did stop trying to actually kill the man a while ago, such attempts producing howls of indignation from his fans (most of whom we can safely assume were a long way away from Libya), but, well.. what 'alliance' is this then?

do download and watch the entire 47 mins


http://www.sendspace.com/file/7mv72q


all the best

[Woodrow]

Qaddafi is the only one of the misguided leaders that I understand. Although he has done and is doing considerable harm, I can not have a bad thought about him. He is ill not evil. His acts are those of one suffering from extreme mental illness and not the thoughts of a rational man.

He does need to be stopped, sadly I doubt if he can be stopped in a peaceful manner. But, I feel it is wrong to thing bad of him. In his demented mind he just may have the intentions of good and does not understand he is the aggressor and not the protector. May Allaah(swt) release him from his torment and restore his mind to normal so he may spend his last days in peace and making a sincere effort to pray for forgiveness and repent of his sins.

[جوري]

Qaddafi is the only one of the misguided leaders that I understand. Although he has done and is doing considerable harm, I can not have a bad thought about him. He is ill not evil. His acts are those of one suffering from extreme mental illness and not the thoughts of a rational man. He does need to be stopped, sadly I doubt if he can be stopped in a peaceful manner. But, I feel it is wrong to thing bad of him. In his demented mind he just may have the intentions of good and does not understand he is the aggressor and not the protector. May Allaah(swt) release him from his torment and restore his mind to normal so he may spend his last days in peace and making a sincere effort to pray for forgiveness and repent of his sins.

The whole thing has been a dark comedy except the dead are really charred and there is no going back.. we spend our days between laughing at that man's lunacies and aghast at his atrocities.. it is really a very sad thing and I don't believe the 'peaceful' approach is going to work anymore..

However I want the west completely out of this.. they're constantly meddling, constantly suggesting what the next regime should be, pushing people unto the protesters. like it is any of their freaking business, like anyone should take into consideration their wants.. They can take a situation in Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakit anatahu and somehow make it about their interest or Israeli interests..

[GuestFellow]

However I want the west completely out of this..

:sl:

Too late.

Libya: United States announces sanctions

They can take a situation in Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateapokaiwhenuakit anatahu and somehow make it about their interest or Israeli interests..

LOL not many people have heard of that. XD

[Pygoscelis]

Good for the Libyans. Now lets hope the rhetoric he held over their heads for so long (that with him gone some radical repressive regime that doesn't allow women to leave the home) doesn't come true. I hope they gain true democracy and strive for a good and just society. Their oil reserves could both help and hinder (US interference is bound to happen) this goal.

[Salahudeen]

I was watching the news and saw he killed and burnt his own soliders because they refused to open fire on the Libiyan people :( I find this so disturbing.

[جوري]

:sl:

Too late.

Libya: United States announces sanctions

U.S sanctions are irrelevant to Libya as is their brand of democracy.. it is because of them that the entire region is under repressive regimes.. They're the only people who stand to gain from our collective misery!

LOL not many people have heard of that. XD

ahhhhh but I am not many people =)

[ardianto]

I was watching the news and saw he killed and burnt his own soliders because they refused to open fire on the Libiyan people :( I find this so disturbing.

No wonder if two Libyan bomber pilot ran to Malta with their planes.

[Dagless]

No wonder if two Libyan bomber pilot ran to Malta with their planes.

They should have turned around and fired those missiles into his house.

[Al-Mufarridun]

The cities that have fallen to the Libyan people, they must organize/arm themselves and build a force to liberate Tripoli from these mercenaries. Peaceful protest won't do it, and waiting for international forces is futile. If the dammed Gaddafis only speak the language of the kalashnikov, very well, speak back to them clearly.

[peace_maker]

Can you believe it? Now, he's blamming it all on Al Qaeda.

[Pygoscelis]

He is truly insane. I wonder what this all looks like from his vantage point. Has he called the marshmallow king to plead his case yet?

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

Update:

Libya: Gaddafi in spotlight at UN Security Council

Share your views.

[جوري]

They should have turned around and fired those missiles into his house.

I Have to agree that he's a special case of lunacy and that 'peaceful protests' aren't going to work.. this guy is rotten to the core needs to be lifted from the roots along with his bizarre regime and entourage of harems ..

:w:

[Danah]

The only thing that I am really scared of in this whole issue is that Libya may end up like Iraq!
If this condition last more, US may invade Libya claiming that they are fighting terrorism! while I am sure that their real motive will be the oil in Libya. The exact same Iraqi scenario will be repeated in Libya.

If that happened, then we have to expect the worse for Libya! May Allah protect Libya from any harm and grant them peace soon.

[جوري]

The only thing that I am really scared of in this whole issue is that Libya may end up like Iraq!
If this condition last more, US may invade Libya claiming that they are fighting terrorism! while I am sure that their real motive will be the oil in Libya. The exact same Iraqi scenario will be repeated in Libya.

If that happened, then we have to expect the worse for Libya! May Allah protect Libya from any harm and grant them peace soon.

I agree with you, they are going to see this as an opportunity to go in with their troops to 'uphold peace and do good'.. that is exactly why I am saying peaceful protests won't work in Libya.. the variables are different here!

:w:

[aadil77]

What a messed up situation we have in libya, its obvious islamic militias will eventually take control and when that happens NATO will step in

[Reflections]

Gaddafi addresses the crowd:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg-2ZD1EYe0

[Zuzubu]

Alright, Libya Tunisia Egypt. It's weak countries, since places like Saudi Arabia and Jordan are too wealthy to go under.

Maybe it's Yemen.

[جوري]

What a messed up situation we have in libya, its obvious islamic militias will eventually take control and when that happens NATO will step in

Do they have Islamic militias in Libya? Whatever the case America is definitely weakening.. they can't have their grip here and there, they've run out of hands and resources.. that in and of itself is worth it for me!

:w:

[Al-Mufarridun]

From what i've gathered, the u.s. as well as few european countries, particularly italy, u.k. and france, are interested in sending their forces to libya for obvious reasons as Turkey's Erdogan has noted. This time tho, they're not using the 'Terrorism' or the 'Islamists' card, they're playing the "saviors" role, at least in the U.S. that is what they're trying to sell to the masses. They are reporting that the Libyan people want us to come and "save" them, and "we don't want to make the same mistake as rwanda". They have talked initially about the Islamic fighters in the area, who don't really have a presence inside Libya, but have abandoned that story, as it had no legs. Plus they couldn't be seen to be agreeing with the lunatic's claims.

What i'm not sure and waiting to see is whether these four countries can agree and see eye to eye before its too late, for them.

[Zuzubu]

Can't agree more

[Danah]

From what i've gathered, the u.s. as well as few european countries, particularly italy, u.k. and france, are interested in sending their forces to libya for obvious reasons as Turkey's Erdogan has noted. This time tho, they're not using the 'Terrorism' or the 'Islamists' card, they're playing the "saviors" role, at least in the U.S. that is what they're trying to sell to the masses. They are reporting that the Libyan people want us to come and "save" them, and "we don't want to make the same mistake as rwanda". They have talked initially about the Islamic fighters in the area, who don't really have a presence inside Libya, but have abandoned that story, as it had no legs. Plus they couldn't be seen to be agreeing with the lunatic's claims.

What i'm not sure and waiting to see is whether these four countries can agree and see eye to eye before its too late, for them.

Exactly! This is what I meant. And their main goal will be the oil and the wealth of the Libyan land!

[yas2010]

...it has been reported that in Oman there has been anti-regime uprising. May Allah (swt) help them.

[Danah]

^ yeah I heard also that one person was killed in the protest!

[aadil77]

Do they have Islamic militias in Libya? Whatever the case America is definitely weakening.. they can't have their grip here and there, they've run out of hands and resources.. that in and of itself is worth it for me!

:w:

well they're muslims and all you hear them chanting on tv is la illaha illalah and allahu akbar - thats enough for them to be labled islamists

[Cabdullahi]

I've read this from another forum

The Timeline

2000: US-funded and trained Otpor in Serbia overthrows Slobodan Milosevic.

2002: Otpor starts hosting Georgian and Ukranian protesters for preparation of "Rose Revolution" and "Orange Revolution."

2003: Otpor travels to Zimbabwe to train protesters. Srdja Popovic decides to found CANVAS

2008: Egyptian April 6 Movement leaders attend US State Department summit in NYC.

2009: April 6 Movement attends training in Serbia under CANVAS.

2010: February, April 6 Movement meets US International Crisis Group trustee Mohamed ElBaradei at Cario's airport. With Google exec Wael Ghonim, they begin conducting ElBaradei's presidential campaign and organizing protests on behalf of ElBaradei's "National Front for Change" for the next year.

2011: January-February April 6, Mohamed ElBaradei, the National Front for Change, assist in the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak.

2011: February, George Soros funded NGOs begin submitting draft constitutions for Egypt's new government.

I saw a documentary on Aljazeera english about those who were organizing the protests in egypt...and they were getting advice and guidance from the otpor group which is headed by Srdja Popovic, you can clearly see him addressing the Egyptian revolutionists @ 5.39 into the vid

You can see it in this vid skip to 4.29

I dont know what to make of this.........did the US train a group of Egyptians to ignite the revolt?.........maybe i should spend less time in this particular forum where i found this info

[جوري]

I dont know what to make of this.........did the US train a group of Egyptians to ignite the revolt?.........maybe i should spend less time in this particular forum where i found this info

The U.S wants the world to believe that they're a super power and a major player.. I assure you that they wanted a 'New Middle east' sad thing it is completely out of their hand and they can't handle the chaos.. if this sort of thing happens in Jordan it will for sure spell disaster for them and Israel given how many Palestinians are refugees there.. already two Iranian war ships passed through the canal to Syria .. and the U.S is whittled away in Afghanistan and Iraq.. so even if their war of words is all they've got, it is saying very little because it is global and colossal!!!!!

:w:

[Trumble]

From what i've gathered, the u.s. as well as few european countries, particularly italy, u.k. and france, are interested in sending their forces to libya for obvious reasons as Turkey's Erdogan has noted. This time tho, they're not using the 'Terrorism' or the 'Islamists' card, they're playing the "saviors" role, at least in the U.S. that is what they're trying to sell to the masses. They are reporting that the Libyan people want us to come and "save" them, and "we don't want to make the same mistake as rwanda". They have talked initially about the Islamic fighters in the area, who don't really have a presence inside Libya, but have abandoned that story, as it had no legs. Plus they couldn't be seen to be agreeing with the lunatic's claims.

Do you actually have any source for that load of rubbish that you've 'gathered'? Perhaps the text of the relevant speech? The idea of occupying Italian forces there for 'obvious reasons' (by which I assume you mean the usual line about stealing all the oil) is particularly hilarious. Mussolini has been dead for a while, now!

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

[جوري]

Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

You must turn on your TV sometimes..even if you can't see the big strategic picture beyond the drivel on TV, surely you can see that their 'backsides' are equally protesting on the streets in their respective countries. Oman, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Bahrain .. It is a fever catching on.. so in fact everyone is doing what they can in their place of residence!

all the best

[Cabdullahi]

Do you actually have any source for that load of rubbish that you've 'gathered'? Perhaps the text of the relevant speech? The idea of occupying Italian forces there for 'obvious reasons' (by which I assume you mean the usual line about stealing all the oil) is particularly hilarious. Mussolini has been dead for a while, now!

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

The American government said all options are on the table.......so anything could happen....only time will tell.

If Qaddafi starts slaughtering the people by the thousands (God forbid) then someone has to intervene...

[جوري]

If Qaddafi starts slaughtering the people by the thousands (God forbid) then someone has to intervene...

I don't think the people of Libya will allow that to happen, anymore than the people of Egypt or Tunisia allowed it to happen.. I do understand that the situation is different given his brutality.. but it he has already locked himself in the city and is surrounded by his people and the army for the most part have taken the people' sides.. so it is a matter of time..
It isn't at all wise to look for western interference.. the minute you give them an inch it will be another 200 years before the people will be rid of them.. this is an internal affair!

:w:

[Cabdullahi]

I don't think the people of Libya will allow that to happen, anymore than the people of Egypt or Tunisia allowed it to happen.. I do understand that the situation is different given his brutality.. but it he has already locked himself in the city and is surrounded by his people and the army for the most part have taken the people' sides.. so it is a matter of time..
It isn't at all wise to look for western interference.. the minute you give them an inch it will be another 200 years before the people will be rid of them.. this is an internal affair!

:w:

Gaddafi bombs protesters near Tripoli

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/167371.html

hes going crazy!
....................................

[جوري]

....................................

indeed, he is a brute and I don't mean as a beguiler but a terrible despot.. his day will come soon.. I don't think that what worked for Egypt and Tunisia will necessarily work for Libya (peaceful protest) that is however, there is no going back for Qadafi.. things aren't going to go back to normal.. what happened is life altering to the extreme.. so we've to sit and watch as things unfold but NO outside interference.. I don't think the Libyans are sitting reading Islamicboard or others.. these people know what they want because they're living it not because outsiders are explaining it to them..

and Allah swt knows best

:w:

[Ramadhan]

It's just an added bonus that Libya has huge oil reserves.

From what i've gathered, the u.s. as well as few european countries, particularly italy, u.k. and france, are interested in sending their forces to libya for obvious reasons as Turkey's Erdogan has noted. This time tho, they're not using the 'Terrorism' or the 'Islamists' card, they're playing the "saviors" role, at least in the U.S. that is what they're trying to sell to the masses. They are reporting that the Libyan people want us to come and "save" them, and "we don't want to make the same mistake as rwanda". They have talked initially about the Islamic fighters in the area, who don't really have a presence inside Libya, but have abandoned that story, as it had no legs. Plus they couldn't be seen to be agreeing with the lunatic's claims.

[Al-Mufarridun]

Do you actually have any source for that load of rubbish that you've 'gathered'? Perhaps the text of the relevant speech? The idea of occupying Italian forces there for 'obvious reasons' (by which I assume you mean the usual line about stealing all the oil) is particularly hilarious. Mussolini has been dead for a while, now!

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

Italy Suspends Nonaggression Pact With Libya

‎US neo-cons urge Libya intervention


We must stand ready to intervene in Libya

‎West weighs military measures‎

What can the US do about Libya?


NATO Most Likely Would Intervene in Libya: Report

‎Analysts: More Libyan bloodshed could prompt US, NATO intervention‎



As for Erdogan's comments;


Turkey’s Erdogan said sanctions would do more harm than good for Libyans.


“Libyans who face starvation and death will face more difficulties and desperation in the event of sanctions,” he said. “The Middle East and Africa have been viewed by the West as merely sources of oil and used as pawns in oil wars for decades. People take to the streets because they are fed up with being used as pawns in oil wars for decades.” Source




‎

[Ummu Sufyaan]

these protests are just heart wrenching. may allah have mercy on those who have been killed becuase of them.

[Trumble]

Erdogan's post says nothing like what you claim it does. None of the others suggest the possibility of anything other than humanitarian intervention with UN approval, should it prove necessary.

Now, I said

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

Can you actually manage an answer?

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

Yes, lets not insult other people's religion.

Update:

Gaddafi says 'all my people love me'

[Al-Mufarridun]

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

Can you actually manage an answer?

Regarding the Humanitarian crisis. The world is welcome to do what they can to assist the people of Libya, or any other people in need. The aid should be done in a way that is free from any hidden political, economical interests/agendas. If the U.S., U.K. or Italy are sincere in their efforts to assist the people of Libya, they should permit Turkey, a Muslim Nato member, to head any mission that is undertaken, whether from Nato or U.N. They are more than capable of undertaking such a mission, and the people of Libya will be by far more trusting of their Turkish brethren's intentions than those of the West. What do you say of that?



Turkey completes Libya evacuations, starts sending aid

[Zuzubu]

Guys I'm telling you, you can be 95% sure that Jordan will be safe. People love them. Only a very small amount of people don't like them.

[سيف الله]

Salaam


Libya is united in popular revolution – please don't intervene

We welcome a no-fly zone, but the blood of Libya's dead will be wasted if the west curses our uprising with failed intervention

[Cut the first half the article out so it doesnt become a wall of text]

All Libyans, even the pro-Gaddafi minority, believe that it's only a matter of time before Libya regains its freedom. But the frightening question remains: how many martyrs will fall before Gaddafi does? How many souls will he take before the curse is broken?

This happy ending, however, is marred by a fear shared by all Libyans; that of a possible western military intervention to end the crisis.

Don't get me wrong. I, like most Libyans, believe that imposing a no-fly zone would be a good way to deal the regime a hard blow on many levels; it would cut the route of the mercenary convoys summoned from Africa, it would prevent Gaddafi from smuggling money and other assets, and most importantly it would stop the regime from bombing weapons arsenals that many eyewitnesses have maintained contain chemical weapons; something that would unleash an unimaginable catastrophe, not to mention that his planes might actually carry such weapons.

Nevertheless, one thing seems to have united Libyans of all stripes; any military intervention on the ground by any foreign force would be met – as Mustafa Abud Al Jeleil, the former justice minister and head of the opposition-formed interim government, said – with fighting much harsher than what the mercenaries themselves have unleashed.

Nor do I favour the possibility of a limited air strike for specific targets. This is a wholly popular revolution, the fuel to which has been the blood of the Libyan people. Libyans fought alone when western countries were busy ignoring their revolution at the beginning, fearful of their interests in Libya. This is why I'd like the revolution to be ended by those who first started it: the people of Libya.

So as the calls for foreign intervention grow, I'd like to send a message to western leaders: Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy. This is a priceless opportunity that has fallen into your laps, it's a chance for you to improve your image in the eyes of Arabs and Muslims. Don't mess it up. All your previous programmes to bring the east and the west closer have failed, and some of them have made things even worse. Don't start something you cannot finish, don't turn a people's pure revolution into some curse that will befall everyone. Don't waste the blood that my friend Ahmed spilt for me.

Let us just live as neighbours on the same planet. Who knows, may be I as your neighbour might one day show up at your doorstep to happily shake your han

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...on-no-fly-zone

Rather polite - but surely they understand that if the west intervenes particularly with boots on the ground it will be the kiss of death.

[Maryan0]

Inshallah this ends well. Tribal and sectarian societies can very easily fall apart in times of civil unrest.
Salam

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

Libyan protesters shouting the Shahada -



May Allah(swt) listen to their payers Inshallah!

[Trumble]

Regarding the Humanitarian crisis. The world is welcome to do what they can to assist the people of Libya, or any other people in need. The aid should be done in a way that is free from any hidden political, economical interests/agendas. If the U.S., U.K. or Italy are sincere in their efforts to assist the people of Libya, they should permit Turkey, a Muslim Nato member, to head any mission that is undertaken, whether from Nato or U.N. They are more than capable of undertaking such a mission, and the people of Libya will be by far more trusting of their Turkish brethren's intentions than those of the West. What do you say of that?

I'd say that is pretty much the same scenario as actually presented (as opposed to 'gathered by you') in the articles you linked to! :hiding: I'm sure if Turkey is capable and willing to undertake the mission there would be no problem in them 'leading' it, as long as their contribution relative to that of others justifies it.

[Argamemnon]

Do you actually have any source for that load of rubbish that you've 'gathered'? Perhaps the text of the relevant speech? The idea of occupying Italian forces there for 'obvious reasons' (by which I assume you mean the usual line about stealing all the oil) is particularly hilarious. Mussolini has been dead for a while, now!

Back in the real world. The UN World Food Program has stated that the food supply chain in Libya is close to collapse. Hopefully, for all concerned, things will resolve themselves quickly, so that doesn't happen. If it did, though, what would you want to happen? Or to rephrase that, to avoid any joke suggestions such as the Arab League or the 'Islamic World' actually doing anything other than sitting on their collective backsides, what would you want to happen that actually might?

You should read a few good books on western imperialism and hegemony, for example those written by William Blum; they are superb scholarly works. We know the West very well and we know what they have been doing to our countries for centuries my naive Buddhist friend. Seriously, only idiots would trust anything the West says or does; ask those living in the Middle East and Africa. We have learned from experience not to trust western states and so called "International organizations". I kindly ask you to stop portraying western states and institutions as forces of good, which they rarely are !!!

[Beardo]

I'm wondering what'll happen after Gadhafi either steps down or gets assassinated. Libya is a tribal system, innit? So who will take power after he leaves?

[Ramadhan]

It seems that the west is already out with massive PR forces to condition world's opinion that situation in Libya require intervention from foreign forces.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^i know. they are so stupid :hmm:

----
through western media im hearing that "rebels" have gained control over certain cities. i bet America are going to use this excuse to invade libiya.

[drafarali]

i completely agree with u thats what i thought about gaddafi ....if we have some Libyan members here we need to confirm it ...form what i heard is that people who r rebelling against gaddafi are the wannabe politician who want to become wealthy and the TV channels they show people r fleeing Libya those people who r felling r not Libyans they r illegal Egyptian workers who r fleeing what i think is that people u know whom i am talking about r trying to create unrest in the islamic countires and make em more modern more westernized u cant just have a revolution just like that there r people with different perspective behind it .....this is my view and from what i heard from a friend of mine who visited libya recently the rest is up to u ..

This is strange! all of what I heard about Qaddafi is good, they said that he is giving his people a good share of the country's wealth. I heard also that any Libyan have a fixed salary since he born till he die! He always call for the unity of Middle east countries
Do we have any Libyan members here? we need to confirm such info.
Keep in mind that his supporters are way more than the protesters.

[drafarali]

they most definatly r going to use that as an excuse ..... and those rebels r none other than pawns of some wealthy rich wannabe politician i feel bad for the normal libyan people who have nuttin to do with this and my sympathies to all the people who r suffering ...the news says 84 dead how many more r going to die when these people start to attack libya ...they seem to show the world that by killing u can bring peace ...thats a shame

[GuestFellow]

I'm wondering what'll happen after Gadhafi either steps down or gets assassinated. Libya is a tribal system, innit? So who will take power after he leaves?

Salaam,

No one knows. The main problem with all of these protests is that there is no unified movement.

[Muhaba]

it is terrible. who is at fault. the ruler or the public? i don't know anything about Qadafi. what kind of ruler is he? what is life like in Libya? can anyone provide concrete verifiable facts instead of just saying he's a rubbish ruler, its a rubbish law system, etc etc.

[GuestFellow]

it is terrible. who is at fault. the ruler or the public? i don't know anything about Qadafi. what kind of ruler is he? what is life like in Libya? can anyone provide concrete verifiable facts instead of just saying he's a rubbish ruler, its a rubbish law system, etc etc.

:sl:

Muammar Gaddafi Profile

^ Hope this helps.

[Dagless]

it is terrible. who is at fault. the ruler or the public? i don't know anything about Qadafi. what kind of ruler is he? what is life like in Libya? can anyone provide concrete verifiable facts instead of just saying he's a rubbish ruler, its a rubbish law system, etc etc.

How can the public be at fault? If 90+% of the population want him out it doesn't matter if he's the best ruler in the world; he should still go. It's not worth killing off almost the entire population of your country to stay in power.
Btw now he says he's not a political leader or ruler, so I'm not sure what he thinks he does or why he gets all that cash. Maybe if the people can decide on a costume he could be the Libyan mascot.. like for when they have football matches away and stuff.

[Muhaba]

is the law islamic law? is hijab compulsary? i heard that libya was trying to make all banks islamic banks. that was a good step.

[جوري]

is the law islamic law? is hijab compulsary? i heard that libya was trying to make all banks islamic banks. that was a good step.

Sister pls. watch the 47 min documentary I posted on this thread.. Don't think that there is anything Islamic at all about the green book kaffir..Don't think that throwing people a bone is a substitute for the heinous crimes he's committed against Muslims and others..

:w:

[Cabdullahi]

Sister pls. watch the 47 min documentary I posted on this thread.. Don't think that there is anything Islamic at all about the green book kaffir..Don't think that throwing people a bone is a substitute for the heinous crimes he's committed against Muslims and others..

:w:

Yo skye check this out :

Qaddafi's Satanic books

[GuestFellow]

^ That is bizarre.

[Argamemnon]

Some writers are claiming that this whole thing starting with Egypt is a new Pan-Arabic nationalist movement. I hope this isn't true since Egypt and other Arab countries can't accomplish anything without Turkey, and Turkey can't accomplish anything without Arab countries, especially Egypt. If there is no comprehensive cooperation between all countries in the region not much will change.

[جوري]

Some writers are claiming that this whole thing starting with Egypt is a new Pan-Arabic nationalist movement. I hope this isn't true since Egypt and other Arab countries can't accomplish anything without Turkey, and Turkey can't accomplish anything without Arab countries, especially Egypt. If there is no comprehensive cooperation between all countries in the region not much will change.

Everyone can come and take credit for the movement even the boogie man.. fact is this is a grassroots movement of folks who have been had.. no one knows where this will end up but I can tell you one thing for sure.. if the west interferes in Libya it will spell disaster.. the scholars have already passed kuffr on these leaders so what are the people waiting for? It is time to take the kaffir regimes down!

:w:

[Argamemnon]

Everyone can come and take credit for the movement even the boogie man.. fact is this is a grassroots movement of folks who have been had.. no one knows where this will end up but I can tell you one thing for sure.. if the west interferes in Libya it will spell disaster.. the scholars have already passed kuffr on these leaders so what are the people waiting for? It is time to take the kaffir regimes down!
:w:

I agree.. (and I have watched that documentary about Khadafi).. and by the way, Turkey was not much different than Egypt only a decade ago. Yesterday I saw a truly unbelievable documentary about how certain Turkish generals and commanders were mere servants and unquestionably obeying their Israeli masters. It was quite shameful to watch. Sadly it's in Turkish I wish you could see it. We have so many traitor kafirs in our countries whether it's Turkey or Egypt makes no difference. These people are really everywhere; in the media, the army, in politics, in universities and so on. :w:

[Argamemnon]

It seems that the west is already out with massive PR forces to condition world's opinion that situation in Libya require intervention from foreign forces.

A very typical western attitude, forming public opinion, demonizing people/countries, then intervene to profit...

[جوري]

I agree.. (and I have watched that documentary about Khadafi).. and by the way, Turkey was not much different than Egypt only a decade ago. Yesterday I saw a truly unbelievable documentary about how certain Turkish generals and commanders were mere servants and unquestionably obeying their Israeli masters. It was quite shameful to watch. Sadly it's in Turkish I wish you could see it. We have so many traitor kafirs in our countries whether it's Turkey or Egypt makes no difference. These people are really everywhere; in the media, the army, in politics, in universities and so on.

I have to admit that there are certain pluses that Turkey has that Egypt doesn't.. some economic stability for one..I have a favorable opinion of Turkey on the account all the turkish Muslims I have encountered were very observant and in contrast with Iranians who couldn't wait to get out of Iran to be all sorts of devils..
I am still very hopeful for Turkey to be a part of an Islamic super power insha'Allah..

:w:

[Ummu Sufyaan]

it would be interesting to see who is behind these air strikes. i wonder what the reality of the situation in Libya really is.

[Argamemnon]

I have to admit that there are certain pluses that Turkey has that Egypt doesn't.. some economic stability for one..I have a favorable opinion of Turkey on the account all the turkish Muslims I have encountered were very observant and in contrast with Iranians who couldn't wait to get out of Iran to be all sorts of devils..
I am still very hopeful for Turkey to be a part of an Islamic super power insha'Allah..

:w:

Iranians living abroad are strange, most of them seem to reject Islam and are Shah lovers, that brutal puppet dictator. I hope these people are not representative of Iran as a whole, and I'm sure they aren't...

You are correct about Turkey's economy but unfortunately more people have turned to materialism and hedonism after this 'economic success'. There are still millions of poor people in the country, Turkey is not a rich country (yet).. let's hope that Egypt will become an economic powerhouse, but without Egyptian society slowly turning away from Islam.. why can't we be pious and economically strong at the same time? Insha'Allah Egypt will be the first example, who knows..

I almost forgot; those practicing and pious Turks you see in the US are usually those who have fled the oppressive secular Turkish regime. Do you know the Fethullah Gülen movement for example ? They have a strong presence in the U.S.. interestingly, some Islamic groups in Turkey consider Gülen's movement as some sort of Zionist plot or something, lol..

:w:

[Al-Mufarridun]

اللهُمَّ أَعِزَّ الإِسْلامَ وَالمُسْلِمِينَ، اللهُمَّ أَعِزَّ الإِسْلامَ وَالمُسْلِمِينَ،
وَأَذِلَّ الشِّرْكَ وَالمُشْرِكِينَ وَدَمِّرْ أَعْدآءَ الدِّينِ وَاحْمِ حَوْزَةَ الإسْلامِ يَا رَبَّ العَالَمِينَ

[Pygoscelis]

So what is the consensus on western interference in this? I know that people in this country would be resentful of it and it would not be welcome (and I understand why), but I have also heard some calls for it. Some are saying that minimal air strikes may help the rebels overcome Qadaffi. A rebel was on the cbc today pleading for this, saying that the libyan rebels have no means of dealing with government air strikes agaisnt them.

After the debacle in Iraq and Afghanistan, and other interventionist action the west has taken at the expense of the middle east for ages now, what would be the reaction to western air strikes on Qadaffi's forces? Would it unite the rebels with Qadaffi agaisnt the west as Qadaffi claims or would it lift the morale of the rebels and help their cause?

And the other major question from a western perspective is even if the rebels wanted western help against Qadaffi, could helping overthrow Qadaffi be a major blunder and put somebody even worse in power? I think this was echoed in the words of Hillary Clinton's lastest speech on the topic.

[Argamemnon]

And the other major question from a western perspective is even if the rebels wanted western help against Qadaffi, could helping overthrow Qadaffi be a major blunder and put somebody even worse in power? I think this was echoed in the words of Hillary Clinton's lastest speech on the topic.

This arrogant and extremely selfish attitude is what we can't stand and frankly are sick and tired of. The West only cares about (economic) interests, they don't view others as human beings but as objects or resources to exploit !!!!!!!

No, there is no consensus on anything in the "Islamic world" much to the delight of western rogue regimes; that is why we are in this deplorable situation in the first place.

[Pygoscelis]

This arrogant and extremely selfish attitude is what we can't stand and frankly are sick and tired of. The West only cares about (economic) interests, they don't view others as human beings but as objects or resources to exploit !!!!!!!

How is it arrogant or selfish to not know what if anything is desired of you by the Lybian people or if your help may do more harm than good?

I understand this attitude you project as the west as selfish, exploitive, and evil, and therefore the question is a real one as to wether the west should just ignore and steer clear of an event such as this to stop being so interventionist (or selfish as you put it), or send aid in the form of food and reserouces etc as Canada is now doing, or do something with military forces to help out as England has suggested.

Which course of action would you prefer the west take?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Which course of action would you prefer the west take?

To mind its own business.

After all its not as if Western governments and businesses have had problems dealing with Gaddafi in the past.

For anybody who finds this funny, notice as soon as serious and sustain protests engulfed Libya 'viola!'. They realise that Gaddafi is a 'tyrant' and that the peoples of Libya need 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

Truly an amazing transformation.

Though I wont deny that western governments are interested in 'liberating' Libya'. Namely liberating its 'oil fields'.

If we look at the record of western attempts to bring 'freedom' to the benighted masses over the centuries it has come at a horrendous price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_War_of_Independence

Just one example, Cuba who made the fateful error of asking for American help, they got it but at a terrbile price as history has shown.

On the question of aid, its big business so no wonder governments are desperate to send aid to Libya. And the idea that the British can send in the military is a non starter, they'll need the say so from the Godfather.

This is the Libyans fight they must do this on their own. THe only alternative is a (genuine) UN force with strict time limits and strict terms of engagement.

George Galloway: 'The people of Libya will bring down the dictator'



Good (radio) discussion on the subject.

[Trumble]

For anybody who finds this funny, notice as soon as serious and sustain protests engulfed Libya 'viola!'. They realise that Gaddafi is a 'tyrant' and that the peoples of Libya need 'freedom' and 'democracy'.

Truly an amazing transformation.

Almost as amazing a transformation as those who had Gaddafi as their favourite poster boy for years because he annoyed the Americans so much now realizing that he is a 'tyrant' and the peoples of Libya supposedly need an Islamist government.

Sometimes the hypocrisy on these boards is breathtaking.

George Galloway: 'The people of Libya will bring down the dictator'

Let's hope not too many get killed by his airstrikes and mercenaries first.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Almost as amazing a transformation as those who had Gaddafi as their favourite poster boy for years because he annoyed the Americans so much now realizing that he is a 'tyrant' and the peoples of Libya supposedly need an Islamist government.

Sometimes the hypocrisy on these boards is breathtaking.

Who on this board said this?

[Argamemnon]

Almost as amazing a transformation as those who had Gaddafi as their favourite poster boy for years because he annoyed the Americans so much now realizing that he is a 'tyrant' and the peoples of Libya supposedly need an Islamist government.

Sometimes the hypocrisy on these boards is breathtaking.




Let's hope not too many get killed by his airstrikes and mercenaries first.

As if western states care (or have ever cared) about Muslim civilians who are ruled by tyrants. In most cases these tyrants are serving western interests and some of those regimes have been installed by the West.

[GuestFellow]

As if western states care (or have ever cared) about Muslim civilians who are ruled by tyrants. In most cases these tyrants are serving western interests and some of those regimes have been installed by the West.

I agree. The mainstream media rarely reports about the relationship between Uzbekistan and America + UK. Uzbekistan is a dictatorship and tortures civilians, most who are Muslims.

It is much easier for a country to work with a dictatorship because dictators can put foreign needs first rather than its own civilians...

[Argamemnon]

I agree. The mainstream media rarely reports about the relationship between Uzbekistan and America + UK. Uzbekistan is a dictatorship and tortures civilians, most who are Muslims.

Very true.. also, those rulers in Turkic states prefer relations with the devil over relations with Turkey. The so-called "Turkic world" or "Arab world" only exists on paper.. Just try and imagine a "Turkic world" and "Arab world" uniting and working together. Together we possess most of the world's natural resources and most strategic locations in the world, as well as young populations... we are so unbelievably stupid, may Allah guide our so-called leaders.

It is much easier for a country to work with a dictatorship because dictators can put foreign needs first rather than its own civilians...

Well said brother, so true.

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

It's really shocking! It's as if all what we used to hear about Libya nothing but lies!!
The scense of the dead bodies in streets is awful!! I can agree that Qadafi was suggesting good union projects for the middle east, but what about his own people? What did he do for them?

I think not all Libyans were living a good life. It seems that there were specific groups preffered over others I think their media was generalizing and only showing those who always get support from Qaddafi!

May Allah grant all the ummah peace!

Both shocking and sad. Sometimes it is hard to tell what is and what is not truth. It appears that Qadafi was never interested in either Islam in general or Libyans in particular as much as he was interested in Qadafi. At least the blinders have been removed, though at a terrible price. May Libya find new leaders that truly care for her.

[Grace Seeker]

A very typical western attitude, forming public opinion, demonizing people/countries, then intervene to profit...

Is that a "western" attitude or a capitalist attitude? Seems more the second to me. I realize there is a lot of overlap, but the attitude doesn't spring from geography as much as it does from economic philosophy and personal greed, two things that are in large supply but not limited to the west. Nor are they universally held values in the west either.

[GuestFellow]

David Cameron says Gaddafi 'has got to go'

^ I hate him. Why does he care so about what is going on in Libya? There many brutal dictators (e.g. Uzbekistan), why does he not take an aggressive approach to deal with those leaders too?

How can this idiot get involved in other countries affairs, when he cannot resolve problems like mass unemployment, violent gangs, teenage pregnancy and I can go on forever. He is full of backwas!!!

[Dagless]

Warning: contains music.

[titus]

The Arab League and the opposition leaders are asking for the West, and the US specifically, to create a no-fly zone in Libya.

It is much easier for a country to work with a dictatorship because dictators can put foreign needs first rather than its own civilians...

True, but that is realpolitik. I don't recall anyone here saying that all countries should stop any diplomatic relations with Libya (or Egypt or Tunisia or any other dictatorship) before on this forum, nor have I seen anyone criticize any non-Western countries for dealing with them. Why is that?

The US, for example, was deeply critical of Qadafi and even performed some military actions against him, which I am sure have been criticized by the same people that claim the US shouldn't have had diplomatic ties with his regime.

If you believe that your nation (whatever that nation should be) should cut all diplomatic and economic ties with any nation with which they don't agree with how they run their internal politics... well good luck. The world just doesn't work that way and it never has. It is unrealistic and extremely un-pragmatic.

Who on this board said this?

Anyone who "stands up to the West" has been lauded on this forum at one time or another. All negative attributes are ignored.

Take for example... Hugo Chavez, who is supporting Qadafi. Also take for example Iran, which is applauding the people of Egypt while at the same time killing it's own people for doing the same thing.

There are some people that really need to stop looking at the world through their "The West is evil and everything wrong in the world is because of them" glasses and face reality.

[Argamemnon]

I don't recall anyone here saying that all countries should stop any diplomatic relations with Libya (or Egypt or Tunisia or any other dictatorship) before on this forum, nor have I seen anyone criticize any non-Western countries for dealing with them. Why is that?

Because the majority of those non-western nations don't have a history of exploiting and plundering other nations.

There are some people that really need to stop looking at the world through their "The West is evil and everything wrong in the world is because of them" glasses and face reality.

It would be wrong to argue that the West is the "sole source" of all evil in the world. However, western imperialism and exploitation and aggression against "third world" nations is a reality. All "third world" nations are sceptic when dealing with western governments, there is little trust due to the abysmal track record of western states.

[Pygoscelis]

The powerful exploit the weak. This is nothing new. This has happened since cave man times.

[Argamemnon]

The powerful exploit the weak. This is nothing new. This has happened since cave man times.

1) Why was your friend titus criticizing the weak when they are the victims of western injustice? He should be criticizing his own government.

2) Why are you trying to justify injustice?? I think it's because you are an atheist and have no morals whatsoever. You believe in the "survival of the fittest" nonsense.

As a Muslim I completely reject all your materialistic ideas and ideologies and explanations. The weak have the right to fight back injustice, but when they do you call them "terrorists".

[Trumble]

The Arab League and the opposition leaders are asking for the West, and the US specifically, to create a no-fly zone in Libya.

If the Arab League want a no fly zone to help the anti-Gaddafi forces (at their request) , why do they need 'the West' to do it? They've bought enough American and Russian planes between them over the years; why not do it themselves?

[KAding]

If the Arab League want a no fly zone to help the anti-Gaddafi forces (at their request) , why do they need 'the West' to do it? They've bought enough American and Russian planes between them over the years; why not do it themselves?

Yes, I don't understand that either. Maybe they don't have the radar capability to enforce a no-fly zone? Egypt certainly has a big enough airforce to do it though. And I can't image range being an issue, especially over Eastern Libya.

[Amat Allah]

His mental illness made ​​him a bloody monster...I really don`t know what he will do when standing before Allah in the Day of Judgement, yes I know that he killed many people and I know that he is not normal even before this happens in Libya....he done many ugly and vicious things to his people, he used to murder them before in ugly ways so, this is not new to him and I won`t be surprised ...

May Allah guide him Ameeen and if there is no guidance for him then May Allah protect the libyan people from him by the way He Wills Ameeeen

[titus]

1) Why was your friend titus criticizing the weak when they are the victims of western injustice? He should be criticizing his own government.

How exactly was I criticizing the weak? Please quote me.

And if you want to know what one of the roots of the problem is in that part of the world it is the willingness of the people to believe that all their problems are caused by outside forces. Every government in the region knows and uses to their full advantage. They know they can say the most absurd things and blame it on the US, Israel or any other "foreign agents" and the people will eat it up. Look at Mubarak who blamed foreign agents for the protest. Look at Qadafi who is blaming drug influenced Al Qaeda. Look at Iran, at Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. They all use it, and they use it because they know their people are sheep who will fall for it.

Except that now people aren't falling for it. Now people are ignoring the finger pointing and getting rid of the true oppressors. Instead of focusing on a feaux external enemy they are realizing that their true worst enemy is within.

And yet people here still want to turn every topic into one that is anti-Western. They still try and blame every issue in the Muslim world on "The West" or on "Zionists", when the truth is that the people could have woken up at any time in the past few decades and rid themselves of these tyrants yet they didn't. The fault for allowing these tyrants to rule lays mainly with the people of those countries, not some external bogeyman.

2) Why are you trying to justify injustice?? I think it's because you are an atheist and have no morals whatsoever. You believe in the "survival of the fittest" nonsense.

I think you missed the point. He wasn't justifying. He was explaining.

And whether you believe in "survival of the fittest" or not it does exist.

Look at Rome. Persia. The Arab conquests. The British Empire.

[GuestFellow]

Every government in the region knows and uses to their full advantage. They know they can say the most absurd things and blame it on the US, Israel or any other "foreign agents" and the people will eat it up. Look at Mubarak who blamed foreign agents for the protest. Look at Qadafi who is blaming drug influenced Al Qaeda. Look at Iran, at Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. They all use it, and they use it because they know their people are sheep who will fall for it.

I do agree that the government does blame other groups or countries for their own domestic problems. For example, the Iranian leader is hostile towards Israel to gain mass support and to divert attention from its poor economy. The Iranian government also blamed the BBC for causing the protests.

Except that now people aren't falling for it. Now people are ignoring the finger pointing and getting rid of the true oppressors. Instead of focusing on a feaux external enemy they are realizing that their true worst enemy is within.

I agree that internal issues within a country should be the main priority but, there are external forces that prefer to work with dictators and might actually get involved. External forces cannot be ignored.

And yet people here still want to turn every topic into one that is anti-Western.

Let's not generalise.

They still try and blame every issue in the Muslim world on "The West" or on "Zionists", when the truth is that the people could have woken up at any time in the past few decades and rid themselves of these tyrants yet they didn't.

Muslims on this forum are capable of blaming Muslims for some problems. For example, Muslims on this forum have blamed the Saudi Monarchy for the country's domestic problems, like poverty and unemployment.

How exactly was I criticizing the weak? Please quote me.

Well...you just did now:

:p:

The fault for allowing these tyrants to rule lays mainly with the people of those countries, not some external bogeyman.

The majority of those people are weak. By weak I mean they do not have political power and are poor. It is extremely difficult to topple dictators because it requires unity and there is a risk that it might not work. So you are criticising these people.

The US is at fault to some extent. You should watch this, though I know you are not a fan of Noam Chomsky...

Noam Chomsky on "Why Do They Hate US, When We're So Good?"

[KAding]

I agree. The mainstream media rarely reports about the relationship between Uzbekistan and America + UK. Uzbekistan is a dictatorship and tortures civilians, most who are Muslims.

It is much easier for a country to work with a dictatorship because dictators can put foreign needs first rather than its own civilians...

The rulers are there, thats why every country in the world 'works' with them. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Argamemnon]

The rulers are there, thats why every country in the world 'works' with them. Nothing more, nothing less.

So that gives others the right to take full advantage of the situation and expoit the country to the detriment of their citizens?

[KAding]

Personally, I feel sorry for the Libyan revolters. I am not sure what they stand for exactly, but things aren't looking good for them. I don't think it'll be pretty once Khadaffi regains control of the east of the country.

But I don't think there is much we can do without making it worse! If some neighboring countries want to help the rebes, they should. But the West should stay as far away as possible from this, even if our primary instinct tells us to 'do something'.

[GuestFellow]

The rulers are there, thats why every country in the world 'works' with them. Nothing more, nothing less.

Are you sure?

Noam Chomsky on "Why Do They Hate US, When We're So Good?"

[Argamemnon]

And yet people here still want to turn every topic into one that is anti-Western. They still try and blame every issue in the Muslim world on "The West" or on "Zionists", when the truth is that the people could have woken up at any time in the past few decades and rid themselves of these tyrants yet they didn't. The fault for allowing these tyrants to rule lays mainly with the people of those countries, not some external bogeyman.

First, internal problems in other countries (Middle East, North Africa or any other region in the world) is none of anybody else's business. I can assure you that nobody in the Middle East or North Africa cares about U.S internal affairs. Second, the West - including "Israel" - ARE attacking and exploiting and plundering the Middle East, this is not science fiction!!! It's been going on for a very very long time now...

Who overthrew Dr. Mossadegh and installed the brutal dictator Shah in Iran? We all know the reason, I'm just wondering whether you are really that ignorant or just trying to upset people for fun or out of boredom.

[Trumble]

First, internal problems in other countries (Middle East, North Africa or any other region in the world) is none of anybody else's business.

What a sad view of the world. Genocide? Torture? Starvation? Oh, somewhere else. None of my business then.

Actually, BTW, an awful lot of people in the Middle East and North Africa care a great deal about its internal affairs.. particularly economic ones. Generally Americans don't resort to armed conflict to resolve economic disputes, though. Not since 1865, anyway.

[Atlast]

Almost as amazing a transformation as those who had Gaddafi as their favourite poster boy for years because he annoyed the Americans so much now realizing that he is a 'tyrant' and the peoples of Libya supposedly need an Islamist government.

Sometimes the hypocrisy on these boards is breathtaking.




Let's hope not too many get killed by his airstrikes and mercenaries first.

Too late for that.. He will sink his own ship before anyone has the chance to oust him in any way.:hmm:

[Pygoscelis]

1) Why was your friend titus criticizing the weak when they are the victims of western injustice? He should be criticizing his own government.

What makes you think he doesn't do both? And why do you assume titus and I are friends? Just because we are both the "other"? I don't know titus at all actually.

2) Why are you trying to justify injustice??

I'm not

I think it's because you are an atheist and have no morals whatsoever. You believe in the "survival of the fittest" nonsense.

Your entire post is one long string of strawmen; one long string of trying to put words int he mouths of others.

you call them "terrorists".

I have called nobody anything. You are doing all the calling.

[Pygoscelis]

I do agree that the government does blame other groups or countries for their own domestic problems. For example, the Iranian leader is hostile towards Israel to gain mass support and to divert attention from its poor economy. The Iranian government also blamed the BBC for causing the protests.

And it isn't just the east. The west does the exact same thing. The Bush presidency is a perfect case in point. Want to subdue and control your own people? Point to an outside threat, real or imaginary.

"Communists are coming to get us! Terrorists are coming! Threat level Red! Now let us tap your phones and give up all your civil liberties so we can protect you!"

The US is at fault to some extent. You should watch this, though I know you are not a fan of Noam Chomsky...

I actually do like Noam Chomsky and think he makes a lot of good points. But that doesn't mean I can't equally note the faults on the other side of the conflict.

[titus]

there are external forces that prefer to work with dictators and might actually get involved. External forces cannot be ignored.

They can't be ignored, but they should not be blamed as the cause of the problem either.

Well...you just did now:

I suppose I did criticize them, but only for allowing themselves to be led like cattle. I am glad to see them standing up for themselves now, though.

The US is at fault to some extent. You should watch this, though I know you are not a fan of Noam Chomsky...

To some extent, yes, but they are not the cause.

No, I really cannot stand Chomsky, and there is nothing in that clip that is new, and he oversimplifies the situation.

People in the region don't hate the US because the US supports dictators. It goes beyond that, although for many that is a part of it. They hate the US for not supporting Iran, yet for supporting Egypt? For putting an embargo on Iraq, yet having diplomatic relations with Libya? Think about it, they hate the US no matter what kind of relations they have with any Muslim government. The hatred, for many, has gone beyond anything reasonable into being a part of the culture.

Let me make a prediction for you. The US is going to have to make a decision soon on whether or not the help the Libyan people militarily. Let's give it one month from today. If they choose to help then there will be people on this forum lambasting the US government as evil and selfish for doing so. If they do nothing then there will be people lambasting the US government for leaving the poor Libyan people out to dry.

Why? Because people need their bogeyman.

First, internal problems in other countries (Middle East, North Africa or any other region in the world) is none of anybody else's business. I can assure you that nobody in the Middle East or North Africa cares about U.S internal affairs. Second, the West - including "Israel" - ARE attacking and exploiting and plundering the Middle East, this is not science fiction!!! It's been going on for a very very long time now...

As I have said before, if you truly believe that then to be consistent you should believe that other countries should stay out of Israels internal affairs. How they treat people within their own borders is their own business, right? After all, the Palestinians are Egyptians, or Syrians, or Lebanese, or any other nationality so those countries should keep their nose out of Israels business. Or out of Denmarks or Frances or Switzerlands when they make laws or print cartoons that offend Muslims?

Or do you make exceptions to your rule? And what exactly are the criteria?

If people are getting killed by the thousands should other countries simply turn a blind eye to the killing and keep doing business as usual with that country?

Who overthrew Dr. Mossadegh and installed the brutal dictator Shah in Iran? We all know the reason, I'm just wondering whether you are really that ignorant or just trying to upset people for fun or out of boredom.

Are you reading my posts? I never said the US didn't interfere, but to blame the US for all autocratic rule in the region is absurd.

And it isn't just the east. The west does the exact same thing. The Bush presidency is a perfect case in point. Want to subdue and control your own people? Point to an outside threat, real or imaginary.

"Communists are coming to get us! Terrorists are coming! Threat level Red! Now let us tap your phones and give up all your civil liberties so we can protect you!"

In regards to Bush, the threat was real but the reaction was misguided (to say the least).

[KAding]

So that gives others the right to take full advantage of the situation and expoit the country to the detriment of their citizens?

No. But I don't see how trade and normal diplomatic relations are synomynous to 'exploitation'. Sorry, I just don't agree we in the West have been 'taking full advantage and exploiting countries' like Libya, Tunesia and Egypt. Yes, we dealt with them as we do with many other countries.

But, as 'GuestFollow' rightly says: "internal problems in other countries is none of anybody else's business". I am not in favour of an overly moralistic foreign policy where we start demanding other countries implement our model of government. I mean, do we have to stop dealing with countries like Russia and China as well? I don't think anyone benefits from that, not us, not the people in those countries. I am not the least bit convinced these dictatorships fall down faster if we isolate them. It will only mean they'll end up with better relations with other 'wrong' countries and have an even more closed society.

Nor do I think it is very good for global peace and stability if we want to organize the international system that way.

[KAding]

Are you sure?

Noam Chomsky on "Why Do They Hate US, When We're So Good?"

I don't think this has much to do with it.

I'm just saying there is little alternative to dealing with people who are in actual power. What is the alternative? Act as if governments of these countries don't exist? How these countries organize their government is up to them.

I'll grant you that from a moral point of view we probably shouldn't be selling arms to them, but even that is obviously a completely symbolic and ineffective measure, as it means others countries will sell arms to them instead.

[GuestFellow]

And it isn't just the east. The west does the exact same thing. The Bush presidency is a perfect case in point. Want to subdue and control your own people? Point to an outside threat, real or imaginary.

"Communists are coming to get us! Terrorists are coming! Threat level Red! Now let us tap your phones and give up all your civil liberties so we can protect you!"

Reminds me how politicians are blaming immigrants for loss of jobs, poor housing, etc.

I actually do like Noam Chomsky and think he makes a lot of good points. But that doesn't mean I can't equally note the faults on the other side of the conflict.

Well both sides are usually at fault..

They can't be ignored, but they should not be blamed as the cause of the problem either.

Sometimes they are the problem.

No, I really cannot stand Chomsky, and there is nothing in that clip that is new, and he oversimplifies the situation.

Well towards the end, he said the US prevents the public from overthrowing dictators from what I can remember. That was a short video but he does give very long lectures.

People in the region don't hate the US because the US supports dictators. It goes beyond that, although for many that is a part of it. They hate the US for not supporting Iran, yet for supporting Egypt? For putting an embargo on Iraq, yet having diplomatic relations with Libya? Think about it, they hate the US no matter what kind of relations they have with any Muslim government. The hatred, for many, has gone beyond anything reasonable into being a part of the culture.

I doubt it. People don't hate the US itself. They hate what the US has done like the Afghanistan war, the Iraq war, torturing suspects and giving weapons to Israel which is used against the Palestinians.

Let me make a prediction for you. The US is going to have to make a decision soon on whether or not the help the Libyan people militarily.

Why would the US help Libya? This is the question you need to ask yourself. There are brutal dictators all over the world, far worse than Gadaffi (e.g. the leader of Uzbekistan). The US is at war and facing economic problems, why spend billions to help Libya?

If they do nothing then there will be people lambasting the US government for leaving the poor Libyan people out to dry.

I doubt the Libyan people will have time to even complain whether the US is helping them or not, especially when Gaddaffi has lost his mind.

Why? Because people need their bogeyman.

I don't believe that is the main reason.

I don't think this has much to do with it.

The part towards the end I think is significant. Toward the end I think he said that the US is blocking democratization and development. Countries do work with other countries, despite their internal policies. The US, however, is actually preventing those people from overthrowing dictators as well as working with those dictators.

The US wants to spread democracy, their own style of government.

Condoleezza Rice speaks at Bush Library You can skip the first part and focus on 3:30/6:08...

This is why some people are suspicious of the US. I'm not convinced the US wants to help everyone for charitable purposes, especially when it involves spending a lot money.

[Darth Ultor]

Since when do we support Iran? The Iranian government is our enemy.

[GuestFellow]

^ Did I say that? O___O

:/

[Argamemnon]

What a sad view of the world. Genocide? Torture? Starvation? Oh, somewhere else. None of my business then.

It's a realistic view based on historical experience. We know the history of western meddling and how much human suffering it has caused and is still causing. Nations should respect one another. Why does the West prevent others from meddling in their own internal affairs? Why are they always criticizing human rights violations across the world when they themselves are the biggest violaters in the world? You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time!

[titus]

Well towards the end, he said the US prevents the public from overthrowing dictators from what I can remember. That was a short video but he does give very long lectures.

I don't recall that point, but even if he did make it don't current events show that to be false?

Sometimes they are the problem.

Again, don't current events show that the US governments influence actually hastened the departure of the dictators? The US certainly didn't support them.

Why would the US help Libya? This is the question you need to ask yourself. There are brutal dictators all over the world, far worse than Gadaffi (e.g. the leader of Uzbekistan). The US is at war and facing economic problems, why spend billions to help Libya?

Part of the reason would be for the same reason that the US is sending their Pacific fleet to Japan right now, to help the people.

Part of the reason would be to help promote democracy.

There is no 1 single answer to that question, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it won't be because the US government wants to take over Libyas oil production.

I doubt the Libyan people will have time to even complain whether the US is helping them or not, especially when Gaddaffi has lost his mind.

The rebel leaders have already asked the US to help. What do you think they are going to say if they actually win, take power, and the US ignored their pleas for help?

[KAding]

The part towards the end I think is significant. Toward the end I think he said that the US is blocking democratization and development. Countries do work with other countries, despite their internal policies. The US, however, is actually preventing those people from overthrowing dictators as well as working with those dictators.

The US wants to spread democracy, their own style of government.

Condoleezza Rice speaks at Bush Library You can skip the first part and focus on 3:30/6:08...

This is why some people are suspicious of the US. I'm not convinced the US wants to help everyone for charitable purposes, especially when it involves spending a lot money.

Well, there is a certain tension here. People like Chomsky (and you as well earlier) are saying the US wants dictators, because they are easier to deal with. It also supposedly helps them 'control the oil supply' (how? As if democracies wouldn't sell oil on the world market??).

On the other hand you are saying the US "wants to spread democracy". Both can't be true at the same time. Either they have an ideological agenda and want to spread democracy or they are propping up dictators.

A simpler explanation is that the US would rather prefer to deal with democracies, but as they aren't available in the region it is dealing with whoever is in power. If we assume energy security is a primary motivator for US foreign policy, it is safe to assume their main objective would be stability in the region. Any instability drives down oil production and pushes up prices, something the US does not want.

That is why this situation is so difficult for the US. They see now that these dictators cannot provide long-term stability, yet at the same time they are fearing the instability of revolts. However, there are no indications that the US has undertaken an effort to undermine these revolutions, on the contrary. It has so far spoken out in favour of those who are demonstrating against their governments.

[Argamemnon]

Do any of our "liberals" or human rights champions amongst us accept the fact that Hamas has the right to fight the Zionist occupiers UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW? Why do you call Hizbullah terrorists when in reality they have rid their country of Zionist occupation and aggression and massacres? Stop calling others terrorists, your own governments are the terrorists and they are fooling you. I'm seeing a great deal of ignorance here.

[KAding]

Why would the US help Libya? This is the question you need to ask yourself. There are brutal dictators all over the world, far worse than Gadaffi (e.g. the leader of Uzbekistan). The US is at war and facing economic problems, why spend billions to help Libya?

Firstly, the US aren't at all eager to intervene. The US has said that it is up to the UN and Arab League to handle the matter. There is absolutely no enthusiasm among the Americans to intervene. The problem is, if the UN security council agrees on a no-fly zone, somebody will have to implement it. Is there anyone except the US that actually can? Note that we are just talking about a no-fly zone here. Nobody is talking about American soldiers actually going into Libya! That is clearly a big no-no from the Americans. And you can't determine the government type of a country from the air, nor can you control the oil with fighter-jets. Framing this as an 'oil grab' or pushing democracy just doesn't make sense.

Secondly, why Libya and not Uzbekistan? Have you taken look at the news lately? Nobody cares about Uzbekistan. It isn't in the news, there simply isn't any internal political pressure on the US government to 'do something'. In the case of Libya there clerly is both external and internal pressure. The rebels themselves are calling for a no-fly zone and the Arab league is asking for one. An awful lot of people in the US also sympathize with the rebels. In the media the whole conflict (rightly or wrongly) is framed as a 'people's uprising' vs. 'brutal dictator'. This whole Libya affair actually most resembles what happened in Kosovo or Haiti. The US also got involved in those conflicts, although there wasn't any clear strategic interest to do so.

I doubt the Libyan people will have time to even complain whether the US is helping them or not, especially when Gaddaffi has lost his mind.

Well, the Libyan opposition is calling for a no-fly zone and is lobbying for it in Western capitals. I tend to agree it would not be a good idea. This isn't our fight. We need to start learning to keep our noses out of internal affairs of other countries, as clearly we aren't trusted. Any intervention will be framed by some as another part of the 'War against Islam', which will only escalate matters further.

[Dagless]

Well, there is a certain tension here. People like Chomsky (and you as well earlier) are saying the US wants dictators, because they are easier to deal with. It also supposedly helps them 'control the oil supply' (how? As if democracies wouldn't sell oil on the world market??).

Examples of dictator support have already been given in this thread. The example of Iran given earlier was a good one. A democracy may decide to go against Israel or the US. They may say no to all the lucrative foreign drilling contracts and cheap oil. What if they decided to sanction the US? A dictator in the pocket is worth more than any democracy.

On the other hand you are saying the US "wants to spread democracy". Both can't be true at the same time. Either they have an ideological agenda and want to spread democracy or they are propping up dictators.

Spreading democracy should read "spreading democracy as long as our interests are served". South America and even Palestine recently have shown that.

That is why this situation is so difficult for the US. They see now that these dictators cannot provide long-term stability, yet at the same time they are fearing the instability of revolts. However, there are no indications that the US has undertaken an effort to undermine these revolutions, on the contrary. It has so far spoken out in favour of those who are demonstrating against their governments.

These dictators have been in power for several decades. Most people would call that long term.

[Argamemnon]

And whether you believe in "survival of the fittest" or not it does exist.

It doesn't exist in Islam.

"O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware."

It doesn't say "we have made you nations and tribes that ye may oppress and kill each other, the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the worst of conduct".

Life is a big test and the majority of human beings (including many Muslims) are failing miserably. They will soon be confronted with the truth as life is very short. I would love to have a conversation with you in the Hereafter ;)

[LavaDog]

The United Nations voted for the no fly zone and are gearing up for airstrikes on military targets. Plus Gaddafi said "if the world gets crazy with us we will get crazy to". No telling whats going to happen.

[Woodrow]

The United Nations voted for the no fly zone and are gearing up for airstrikes on military targets. Plus Gaddafi said "if the world gets crazy with us we will get crazy to". No telling whats going to happen.

Now this really has gotten me irritated. What in blue blazes is the logic in us getting involved in another mess. Our intentions might be good, but we always end up making bad situations worse when we poke our noses and aircraft into the affairs of other Nations.

My congressmen is going to get at least one email protesting any USA aircraft or Military forces being used in Libya.

Libya: UN approves no-fly zone as British troops prepare for action


Western forces could launch bombing raids against the Libyan regime as early as Friday after the UN backed international military action.

SOURCE

[Argamemnon]

Our intentions might be good

I have to be honest here. Please don't get me wrong but it truly baffles me to hear you say this because you obviously seem like a well-educated and very intelligent person. Since when do western states care about the well-being of mankind as a whole??

:w:

[Argamemnon]

I couldn't disagree more brother woodrow, I'm reading books about western politics and international relations and I know for sure that they never care about other natons and peoples. They only want to preserve their hegemony and oppression.

[Zuzubu]

I read about Muammar Gaddafi and he used to sleep at mosque, and started a revolution. He wasn't that rich, so he walked many miles to school every week home and back I have read.

Also that he made the film The Message (he financed it with his money, not made all of it). He also kept americans away.

I also read an article from Hizb-Ut-Tahrir Denmark where they said that people are only going to Libya for oil.

[titus]

I also read an article from Hizb-Ut-Tahrir Denmark where they said that people are only going to Libya for oil.

Don't believe everything you read. Libya isn't even in the top 15 nations when it comes to oil production, and Western countries already buy oil from Libya, so attacking won't change that nor make that any easier. They certainly aren't going to go in there and then have the UN take over their oil industry to take the profits.

Does the article explain how enforcing a no-fly zone is supposed to help the West get their oil? Especially since it seem that the smartest way to keep the Libyan oil flowing would be to help Gadafi win, not to help the rebels.

[Dagless]

Don't believe everything you read. Libya isn't even in the top 15 nations when it comes to oil production, and Western countries already buy oil from Libya, so attacking won't change that nor make that any easier. They certainly aren't going to go in there and then have the UN take over their oil industry to take the profits.

Actually almost a 10th of Europe's oil is Libyan so it's very significant. They do buy oil from Libya but if this goes on then their supply will be affected.

Does the article explain how enforcing a no-fly zone is supposed to help the West get their oil?

It will shorten the time needed for an outcome.

Especially since it seem that the smartest way to keep the Libyan oil flowing would be to help Gadafi win, not to help the rebels.

Gaddafi has already bombed some of his own oil facilities, I don't think supporting him would make their oil supply any safer.

[Woodrow]

I couldn't disagree more brother woodrow, I'm reading books about western politics and international relations and I know for sure that they never care about other natons and peoples. They only want to preserve their hegemony and oppression.

:sl: My respected Brother,

On a personal I myself like all Americans I know, do care very much about the welfare of people in other nations. I will agree that the actions of our government often times does not reflect this. But the intention of the majority of the American people is one of compassion for others.

I do strongly oppose the wasichu government of the USA and am especially appalled at how those of us who live on Native American reservations are treated. But, that does not honestly reflect how the American people are. Sadly we are a very lazy group and too often fail to remind our government it is our servant and the people are the master.

Our biggest problem is we Americans fail in the responsibility in keeping our government under control, we too often have the attitude of thinking our politicians are following the will of the people.

Our sins are those of procrastination and apathy. We are too lazy to stand up and remind our government that it works for us, we pay their salary and neglect to keep track of how they spend our money.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Good interview (paxmans the interviewer) here about the whole middle east situation with particular attention paid to Libya.

Part 1



Part 2

[Ramadhan]

Libya isn't even in the top 15 nations when it comes to oil production,

You are not giving a full picture, hence misleading.
It is true that Libya sits just outside top 15 nations in term of oil production, but:
it is in top 15 on the oil exporter ranking, which is more useful for the importer like europe and USA
it is ranked at #9 just behind Russia in terms of proven oil reserves (2010, CIA world fact book), which is even more useful for future supply,
and most importantly,
It is located literally on the mediterranean, right next to europe, the closests oil producing country to europe, which is far from volatile middle east and outside russia influence.

Truth is, europe is salivating and can't wait to enter Libya.

[titus]

Truth is, europe is salivating and can't wait to enter Libya.

And why exactly is that, do you believe? Do you think Europe is going to take over control of Libyas oil supply and give it to themselves for free?

How, exactly, do you believe that the UN helping the rebels is going to equate to cheap oil for Europe?

[LavaDog]

And why exactly is that, do you believe? Do you think Europe is going to take over control of Libyas oil supply and give it to themselves for free?

Well not for free, but the British did that with Iran.

How, exactly, do you believe that the UN helping the rebels is going to equate to cheap oil for Europe?

Its not really about oil. Lybia along with Iran is one of the only countries that has a state owned central bank instead of using the IMF. They just financed the rebels to get their foot in the door.

[Maryan0]

The hypocrisy of these people never ceases to amaze me. Why don't they call for an intervention in the Ivory Coast there is heavy fighting going on there or is there concern only limited to oil producing nations. This isn't about the Libyan people it's about oil and the prices that are continuing to rise the longer the fighting continues.
Salam

[Trumble]

The hypocrisy of these people never ceases to amaze me. Why don't they call for an intervention in the Ivory Coast there is heavy fighting going on there or is there concern only limited to oil producing nations. This isn't about the Libyan people it's about oil and the prices that are continuing to rise the longer the fighting continues.
Salam

Perhaps then you could enlighten us as to why the Arab League asked for this action? Surely increasing oil prices would be in their best interests, considering the amount of the stuff they export - particularly with nuclear power suddenly becoming much less popular for obvious, and very sad reasons? Or why Lebanon jointly sponsored it.. how are they being hypocritical?

[Zuzubu]

Guys you know, eventhough they dont got much oil, the libyan oil is special, it is not full of bad materials, it is very clean and more useful than normal oil.

But I don't get it? Airplanes can't help it. I mean what will they do? Kill Gaddafi? Kill civilians? Drop bombs? It is cowarded to use jets, why not go there by foot, or hire people to capture Gaddafi (if he isn't already in some south american jungle hidding)

[Maryan0]

Perhaps then you could enlighten us as to why the Arab League asked for this action? Surely increasing oil prices would be in their best interests, considering the amount of the stuff they export - particularly with nuclear power suddenly becoming much less popular for obvious, and very sad reasons? Or why Lebanon jointly sponsored it.. how are they being hypocritical?

Perhaps you can read the many threads on this forum so you can gauge what the majority of Muslims think of the Arab league and the leaders of the Muslim world in general?
Hiding behind the notion of what a select few of out of touch leaders and puppets of the west think is a pretty weak argument. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why the western world is so willing to interfere in Libya while ignoring similar situations in less strategic and oil rich nations like the Ivory Coast. They have an agenda and it's not concern for the Libyan people. History and previous interventions in the global south have shown otherwise.
Salam

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Don't believe everything you read. Libya isn't even in the top 15 nations when it comes to oil production, and Western countries already buy oil from Libya, so attacking won't change that nor make that any easier. They certainly aren't going to go in there and then have the UN take over their oil industry to take the profits.

is there anytime an American army advances towards a land, expect for robbing the people of their wealth?

[Trumble]

Guys you know, eventhough they dont got much oil, the libyan oil is special, it is not full of bad materials, it is very clean and more useful than normal oil.

But I don't get it? Airplanes can't help it. I mean what will they do? Kill Gaddafi? Kill civilians? Drop bombs? It is cowarded to use jets, why not go there by foot, or hire people to capture Gaddafi (if he isn't already in some south american jungle hidding)

The UN resolution specifically forbids 'going there by foot' (or tank, or truck or...) . The purpose of the planes is to enforce the no-fly zone which means, if necessary, shooting down Gaddafi's planes before THEY drop bombs and kill civilians. Amazingly enough, the only way to do that is with those 'cowardly' jets. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you can read the many threads on this forum so you can gauge what the majority of Muslims think of the Arab league and the leaders of the Muslim world in general?
Hiding behind the notion of what a select few of out of touch leaders and puppets of the west think is a pretty weak argument. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to why the western world is so willing to interfere in Libya while ignoring similar situations in less strategic and oil rich nations like the Ivory Coast. They have an agenda and it's not concern for the Libyan people. History and previous interventions in the global south have shown otherwise.
Salam

Nothing could be done in the Ivory Coast without the use of ground forces, who would essentially be taking sides in a civil war. In such a situation it would not be possible to gear all operations towards protecting civilians. Exactly the same would be true in Libya were ground troops used.. see above. As to nations 'like' the Ivory Coast, the West, and particularly the US, still has massive collective guilt about not getting involved in Rwanda... something that almost certainly would have happened were it not for the Mogadishu incident the year before that effectively ended a substantial humanitarian intervention in Somalia, and the effect that had on public opinion. I note you deliberately exclude it with 'global south', but how much oil was there in Kosovo?

What you haven't said yet in criticizing everybody else is what you think should happen. The intervention only happened when it became apparent Gaddafi would be likely to win, and hence show "no mercy, no pity" to his opponents. Is that what you would prefer to see?

is there anytime an American army advances towards a land, expect for robbing the people of their wealth?

Aside from in their own backyard in the nineteenth century, are you actually able to name a single instance where that has actually happened other than on an individual scale (which is true of all armies, everywhere)? Feel free to compare the actions of the US army in that regard with those of whoever they happened to be fighting at the time.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Aside from in their own backyard in the nineteenth century, are you actually able to name a single instance where that has actually happened other than on an individual scale (which is true of all armies, everywhere)? Feel free to compare the actions of the US army in that regard with those of whoever they happened to be fighting at the time.

not to point out the obvious, but Iraq. oh and for your second request, the Iraqis are fighting the Americans because they want their own wealth to belong to them. ta da, not difficult at all.

[Argamemnon]

Let me get this straight; western governments want to bomb Libya because it's a "brutal regime". Then why are they not bombing Israel (which is a much more brutal regime than Libya has ever been). Why don't we hear calls to bomb Israel in the glorious Western media?

Can somebody explain to me why the West doesn't want to get rid of the brutal Israeli regime? I know I won't get a rational answer from our human rights champions on this board. And then they find it very odd that people across the world don't trust western governments. Hello??

[Trumble]

not to point out the obvious, but Iraq. oh and for your second request, the Iraqis are fighting the Americans because they want their own wealth to belong to them. ta da, not difficult at all.

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

Get real. Try again.

Let me get this straight; western governments want to bomb Libya because it's a "brutal regime". Then why are they not bombing Israel (which is a much more brutal regime than Libya has ever been). Why don't we hear calls to bomb Israel in the glorious Western media?

No, 'western governments', not to mention other Arab governments (I know.. 'puppets', blah, blah.. just like Lebanon.. cough..) do not want to 'bomb Libya' at all. They want to stop Gaddafi bombing it. Same question as to Maryan0; is that what you want to happen?

Can somebody explain to me why the West doesn't want to get rid of the brutal Israeli regime? I know I won't get a rational answer from our human rights champions on this board. And then they find it very odd that people across the world don't trust western governments. Hello??

Hello,

1) Because it's rather less brutal than many others, and attempting to get rid of it would kill far more people than not attempting to do so.

3) It's very hard to get rid of a democratic elected regime and provide any alternative other than a dictatorship of some sort.

2) Because there are no votes in it, and no economic interests in it.

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

[shibly11]

He started his career as a Libyan strong man and ended up a joker.I don't think any leader in the whole world behaves like him.
It is time he steps down and pave the way for a democratic government.The people of Libyan have tolerated this joker for more than 40 years.

[Perseveranze]

Disappointing, was expecting one Muslim army to be the first to go in there to support :( Not even for Palastine did it happen. Guess no one does anything unless there's some benefit in it for themselves.

[Dagless]

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

Get real. Try again.

Nothing... apart from a guaranteed oil supply, countless multi-billion dollar foreign contracts, and a message for anyone else who wants to stand against the US.

Hello,

1) Because it's rather less brutal than many others, and attempting to get rid of it would kill far more people than not attempting to do so.

3) It's very hard to get rid of a democratic elected regime and provide any alternative other than a dictatorship of some sort.

2) Because there are no votes in it, and no economic interests in it.

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

Your maths is comparable to your logic.

[Maryan0]

Nothing could be done in the Ivory Coast without the use of ground forces, who would essentially be taking sides in a civil war.

Like they're doing in Libya?

Both Libya and the Ivory Coast have factions that are fighting a brutal dictator and his forces. In fact their situations mirror many other nations not that they get any coverage. Their situations are very much alike and not at all comparable to the situations that occurred in Rwanda and Kosovo.

In such a situation it would not be possible to gear all operations towards protecting civilians. Exactly the same would be true in Libya were ground troops used.. see above.

So aerial bombardment is the better option?

As to nations 'like' the Ivory Coast, the West, and particularly the US, still has massive collective guilt about not getting involved in Rwanda... something that almost certainly would have happened were it not for the Mogadishu incident the year before that effectively ended a substantial humanitarian intervention in Somalia, and the effect that had on public opinion. I note you deliberately exclude it with 'global south', but how much oil was there in Kosovo?

So the collective guilt and and the utterances of “never again” are keeping western nations from involving themselves in another humanitarian intervention in Africa? Because of “never again” the Ivory Coast is being ignored? I believe it would be the opposite. Your logic is faulty.
Like I said before the reason why intervention is being called for by the west and their puppets in the east is because Libya is an oil producing nation. The Ivory Coast is being Ignored because they aren’t and are therefore less important.and I exclude Kosovo from the global south because it is not a part of the global south. Both the situations in the Kosovo and Rwanda were situations of ethnic cleansing. That is not so with Libya. There is no genocide of a specific ethnic group going on. Your comparison falls short.
And I find it interesting that you would mention Somalia( my homeland) because the failure of the mission in Somalia did not end American intervention in Somali affairs. The Ethiopians who invaded Somalia in 2006 and toppled the Islamic courts which led to the much more extreme Al-shabaab coming into power were directly funded and equipped by the Americans who gave them the go ahead to invade in the first place. Not to mention the many Somali’s who were killed and displaced because of such fighting. Do you care at all about that? or did your concern flee for all the Somali's who lost their lives because of American intervention with your short attention span.

What you haven't said yet in criticizing everybody else is what you think should happen. The intervention only happened when it became apparent Gaddafi would be likely to win, and hence show "no mercy, no pity" to his opponents. Is that what you would prefer to see?

How about you leave Libya to the Libyans. It is not only hypocritical (like I said before) since other nations in similar circumstances like the Ivory Coast are not being “saved” but it is also not in the best interest of the west to intervene. What’s going on in Libya is not just about Kaddafi. Libya is a tribal country and what’s going on right now will most likely not be solved by Kaddafi’s departure. Not only will it cause resentment by pro-govt forces and other tribes loyal to Kaddafi but it will lead to worse tensions in the event that Kaddafi does leave between the tribes who were supported by outside intervention and those who weren’t. and the blame will again fall on the west. And then you will most likely come on this forum and complain about everything being blamed on the west. It’s very simplistic to think it will end with Kaddafi’s Leaving.
Western governments have supported many a tyrant in the Arab world for decades. The concern for the people in Libya and other N.African nations now is a little too late. If you as an individual care about the Libyans that’s fine but I don’t see why you and some others on this forums continue to try sell us the idea that your governments are not in it for the their own interests when almost every intervention in the past proves they have been.
Salam

[Argamemnon]

1) Because it's rather less brutal than many others, and attempting to get rid of it would kill far more people than not attempting to do so.

3) It's very hard to get rid of a democratic elected regime and provide any alternative other than a dictatorship of some sort.

2) Because there are no votes in it, and no economic interests in it.

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

No Muslim country on earth does what Israel is doing in Palestine and Lebanon. If you are referring to the U.S. as a more brutal regime than Israel you are absolutely right. No argument there, we are in total agreement about that. Like most westerners you fail to realize that the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Hizbullah has defeated Israel on several occasions. Your invincible Zionist army is not that invincible after all, is it dear Trumble? :)

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

Get real. Try again.

It's very obvious to me (and hopefully everybody else) that you know next to nothing about the war in Iraq. Let's take it step by step.

First, why did the US invade Iraq and cause unimaginable human suffering? The second question is: why did they decimate the nation's cultural heritage as soon as they invaded the country? I have a lot more important questions, but I'll be happy enough if you could provide answers to the above two questions.

No, 'western governments', not to mention other Arab governments (I know.. 'puppets', blah, blah.. just like Lebanon.. cough..) do not want to 'bomb Libya' at all. They want to stop Gaddafi bombing it. Same question as to Maryan0; is that what you want to happen?

LOL? Do western governments also want to stop Israel's occupation and inhumane treatment (what a massive understatement, shame on me!) and oppression of Palestinian civilians? Why not? I'm eagerly awaiting your (bla bla) response.

[LavaDog]

To difficult for you, it seems. Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now? Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

I guess it depends on how you define wealth, but we let the museum in Iraq get looted and they lost thousands of objects. The Iraqis did fight us a lot more than the media would tell you. We had tons of milita groups fighing us that were not with Taliban or Saddam. The only reason they stopped was we paid them off. In some cases we would literally ride up to a villiage with a suitcase full of money.

[yigiter187]

We have seen western democracy and peace in Iraq or in Afghanistan....I hope Libyans wont see the western democracy and peace..Even Gaddafi has a better perceive of democracy...

[GuestFellow]

:sl:

Obama Threatens Military Action if Attacks Resume

^ UPDATE

[Maryan0]

:sl:

Obama Threatens Military Action if Attacks Resume

^ UPDATE

Who'd a thunk it?
Salam

[Trumble]

Like they're doing in Libya?

As I said, the UN resolution does not permit the use of ground forces (although I assume the usual special forces will be marking targets for the planes). Such an intervention might prove effective in Libya, but as I said (again) operations in the Ivory Coast would require ground troops.

So aerial bombardment is the better option?

What 'aerial bombardment'?

So the collective guilt and and the utterances of “never again” are keeping western nations from involving themselves in another humanitarian intervention in Africa? Because of “never again” the Ivory Coast is being ignored? I believe it would be the opposite. Your logic is faulty.

My logic is just fine, thanks.. although I am offering opinions, not 'logic' - as are you.

Like I said before the reason why intervention is being called for by the west and their puppets in the east is because Libya is an oil producing nation. The Ivory Coast is being Ignored because they aren’t and are therefore less important.and I exclude Kosovo from the global south because it is not a part of the global south. Both the situations in the Kosovo and Rwanda were situations of ethnic cleansing. That is not so with Libya. There is no genocide of a specific ethnic group going on. Your comparison falls short.

I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.

And I find it interesting that you would mention Somalia( my homeland) because the failure of the mission in Somalia did not end American intervention in Somali affairs. The Ethiopians who invaded Somalia in 2006 and toppled the Islamic courts which led to the much more extreme Al-shabaab coming into power were directly funded and equipped by the Americans who gave them the go ahead to invade in the first place.

Were they? What equipment was provided? And a link to the text giving the go-ahead?

Not to mention the many Somali’s who were killed and displaced because of such fighting. Do you care at all about that? or did your concern flee for all the Somali's who lost their lives because of American intervention with your short attention span.

My attention span is also fine, thank you. Actually I do. Rather more so than you, seemingly, about those being killed by Gaddafi.

How about you leave Libya to the Libyans.

It's hardly my call, but at least you've finally said what you want. I wonder if they appreciate your point of view in Bengazi.

[Maryan0]

As I said, the UN resolution does not permit the use of ground forces (although I assume the usual special forces will be marking targets for the planes). Such an intervention might prove effective in Libya, but as I said (again) operations in the Ivory Coast would require ground troops.



What 'aerial bombardment'?



My logic is just fine, thanks.. although I am offering opinions, not 'logic' - as are you.



I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.



Were they? What equipment was provided? And a link to the text giving the go-ahead?



My attention span is also fine, thank you. Actually I do. Rather more so than you, seemingly, about those being killed by Gaddafi.



It's hardly my call, but at least you've finally said what you want. I wonder if they appreciate your point of view in Bengazi.

A simple search on Google will give you information on the 2006 invasion of Somalia by American backed Ethiopians. Anyone familiar with the Islamic Courts and the situation in Somalia know this but i'm not surprised you wouldn't know about it since your concern for people's welfare hinges whatever new group your leaders choose to focus on. Do you have anything of relevance to support your argument or are you just going to rely on playing on emotions and weak detractions?
Salam

[IslamicRevival]

As much as i dislike what the Libyan government is doing to its own people..i despise the arrogant powers who think they can invade any country they like
I hope every single one of their planes are shot down and destroyed!

[Trumble]

No Muslim country on earth does what Israel is doing in Palestine and Lebanon. If you are referring to the U.S. as a more brutal regime than Israel you are absolutely right. No argument there, we are in total agreement about that. Like most westerners you fail to realize that the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples. Also, you seem to have forgotten that Hizbullah has defeated Israel on several occasions. Your invincible Zionist army is not that invincible after all, is it dear Trumble? :)

Oh dear, so much drivel in one short paragraph.

Like most westerners I 'fail to realize it' because it isn't true. Ever heard of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? They killed more of their own in a week than the Israelis have killed in total since 1946. Burma? North Korea? Ever heard of them?

Hizbullah has not 'defeated Israel' at all in the sense you are talking about as Israel is still there, as is its regime neither of which Hizbullah ever remotely threatened. They are not my army, and they are not invincible, but if 'regime change' in Israel was quite so easy you don't think somebody might have managed by now?

It's very obvious to me (and hopefully everybody else) that you know next to nothing about the war in Iraq. Let's take it step by step.

First, why did the US invade Iraq and cause unimaginable human suffering? The second question is: why did they decimate the nation's cultural heritage as soon as they invaded the country? I have a lot more important questions, but I'll be happy enough if you could provide answers to the above two questions.

To remove Saddam Hussein and neutralize his weapons of mass destruction. We know now, of course, that there were no weapons of mass destruction. It seems to be you who knows next to nothing about the war.. the vast majority of that human suffering came about after Saddam had been defeated. Of course, there were many incidents by US troops that were criminal and indefensible. I wasn't aware of a policy of 'decimating the nation's cultural heritage' - perhaps you could provide some sources for that claim?

LOL? Do western governments also want to stop Israel's occupation and inhumane treatment (what a massive understatement, shame on me!) and oppression of Palestinian civilians? Why not? I'm eagerly awaiting your (bla bla) response.

I'll ignore your idiotic last remark. Actually, the European governments do . It the US that generally vetoes any action for political reasons.

Again, though.. this issue here is Libya. Not Israel, not Iraq, not the Ivory Coast. I repeat my question.. so you agree with Maryan0 that everyone should just leave Gaddafi to get on with it?

[Maryan0]

From this

I don't draw the same distinction between reasons for killing people as you do. Specific ethnic group or not, they are just as dead. Your comparison is irrelevant.

To this:

Like most westerners I 'fail to realize it' because it isn't true. Ever heard of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot? They killed more of their own in a week than the Israelis have killed in total since 1946. Burma? North Korea? Ever heard of them?

Be consistent.
Salam

[Trumble]

A simple search on Google will give you information on the 2006 invasion of Somalia by American backed Ethiopians.

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.

Be consistent.

Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that

"the most "brutal regimes" are those that attack and dominate and oppress other nations and peoples."

by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

[Beardo]

US, British, and French have moved into Libya (?)

[Maryan0]

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.

Look it up.

Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that
by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

Yes it does. You were arguing with me about the semantics of ethnic cleansing and what's going on in Libya by saying "they are both dead" and than when Agamemnon calls you out on the hypocrisy of western nations in regards to many Palestinians being killed by the Israelis you compare numbers. The Israelis aren't that bad because Mao and Pol Pot killed more people? I repeat be consistent.

[ICYUNVMe]

As much as i dislike what the Libyan government is doing to its own people..i despise the arrogant powers who think they can invade any country they like
I hope every single one of their planes are shot down and destroyed!

Lets look at it from a different perspective: The U.N. is meant to prevent human rights violations. If Gaddafi followed through with a plan to surround Bengazi and kill all of the protesters, that's a significant violation, and it is up to the U.N. to stop such things from happening. The U.N. is not concerned with an individual nation's sovereignty when that is occurring.

Let it also be noted that the rebels were pleading for the "arrogant powers" to establish a no-fly zone for like 2 weeks. And the ensuing celebration in Bengazi that followed the U.N. Security Council vote should tell you what's really going on, and how the important people involved in the struggle really feel.

However, I'm sure that within a month, there will be many people like you calling this an "occupation" and stating that the Americans are only interested in oil, and most likely, those evil, evil Israelis are involved somehow. And there will probably be many Libyans themselves who will claim that "America should mind their own business and leave us alone.", completely omitting the fact that without help from these "arrogant powers", they would all be dead. Its very by-the-book. Apparently, something in the Arab world prevents the creation of long-term memory.

[Al-Indunisiy]

Good... then you won't have trouble actually providing sources for your claims that I questioned earlier. I look forward to seeing them.




Oh, please.. at least try and pay attention? In the second I was responding directly to Argamemnon's claim that



by providing counter examples. That in no way contradicts my previous statement.

I'll just do you a favor and search some for you:

http://www.newsdire.com/news/507-inv...a-mistake.html

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010...et-somalia-op/

www.academicjournals.org/ajpsir/PDF/pdf2010/February/Bamfo.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ar/somalia.htm

[Argamemnon]

........

American terror is overthrowing all around the world dozens of democratically elected governments, supporting military juntas or dictators in their place, arming their security forces and organising & training them in 'counter-insurgency' (terrorism the US carries out), conducting proxy-wars through them, and so on and so forth. How many people do you think died as a consequence of all these barbaric policies for a near CENTURY? Have you ever thought about that? Soviet Union doesn't even rate next to those actions, it was a dungeon and its crimes were mostly internal.

[Argamemnon]

If you as an individual care about the Libyans that’s fine

I don't think they do. Western "civilization" is based on genocides and exploitation and plundering of other nations and peoples. You can't take these folks seriously when they are ranting about human rights, freedom of religion, women's rights and so on. They only care about their own rights. They think they own the world (and everything on it) and anyone who refuses to follow their orders is considered an enemy that must be destroyed.

but I don’t see why you and some others on this forums continue to try sell us the idea that your governments are not in it for the their own interests when almost every intervention in the past proves they have been.
Salam

They might be ignorant because they are brainwashed by their corporate media (I personally think this is one of the main reasons). Or they are simply dishonest and know very well what their governments are doing and support those brutal policies. Especially Americans seem to be obsessed with wars and bloodshed, they can't seem to get enough of it. Unsurprisingly, American gamers are obsessed with "war games" as well. I don't have a particularly favorable opinion of American people (to be honest of westerners in general).

[LavaDog]

Let it also be noted that the rebels were pleading for the "arrogant powers" to establish a no-fly zone for like 2 weeks. And the ensuing celebration in Bengazi that followed the U.N. Security Council vote should tell you what's really going on, and how the important people involved in the struggle really feel.

Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers. And the evil Israelis acted as middle men to smuggle in weapons for them. This seems like it will go down like Yugoslavia.

[titus]

Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe.

I just love conspiracy theories.

So the truth is that the Libyans were happy as clams under Qadafi, but the US and Europe tricked them into thinking they were unhappy (with Israel as a middle man, of course).

. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers.

But I thought the US was propping up the dictatorship in Egypt for it's own evil purposes? Now I am being told they removed him for their own evil purposes?

These conspiracy theories confuse me because they seem contradictory. At least I know that the West are the bad guys, no matter what happens, because they are secretly manipulating everything to their own evil and selfish ends.

They might be ignorant because they are brainwashed by their corporate media (I personally think this is one of the main reasons).

If you want to believe that the West are all brainwashed minions of corporations then so be it, but what do the Arab governments think of the intelligence of their citizens when they feel they can blame all of their nations internal problems on external sources (Al Qaeda drug users anyone?). Sadly it is true, a huge number of them do fall for it. They are brainwashed into believing that everything bad in their world is because of the West, and then when people question that and try to stand up for themselves they are shot and called foreign agents.

And then other people see Egyptians, Tunisians and Libyans fighting against their oppressors and all they can do muster is a knee jerk reaction to rail against the West instead of supporting those people.

[Argamemnon]

Hizbullah has not 'defeated Israel' at all in the sense you are talking about as Israel is still there, as is its regime neither of which Hizbullah ever remotely threatened. They are not my army, and they are not invincible, but if 'regime change' in Israel was quite so easy you don't think somebody might have managed by now?

Hizbullah defeated Israel in 2000 and 2006. Go read Zionist government reports, don't be lazy I'm not your teacher. You don't even know what a defeat is. Hizbullah is currently able to strike every part of Israel with much more advanced missiles. Israel's domination of the region (which fortunately has already started decreasing fast) will not last very long; at most a few decades which is basically negligible in human history. Turkey, Iran and Egypt will deal with Israel accordingly. The countries in the region will eventually force the Zionists to act rational, the balance of power is changing fast and the American empire is also declining which is good news for mankind as a whole.

I wasn't aware of a policy of 'decimating the nation's cultural heritage'

I know you aren't, but Iraqis are. And there are many other policies that you aren't aware of. It's a waste of time arguing with you because your lack of knowledge is extremely frustrating. Perhaps later.

[LavaDog]

So the truth is that the Libyans were happy as clams under Qadafi, but the US and Europe tricked them into thinking they were unhappy (with Israel as a middle man, of course).

No I realize that they were not happy, but that does not mean the west still did not fund the rebels. Its the same as in Yugoslavia, there was real anger and the people wanted change but the west gave rebel groups weapons and money then watched the country tear itself apart. Then out of the kindness of their heart they steped in.

These conspiracy theories confuse me because they seem contradictory. At least I know that the West are the bad guys, no matter what happens, because they are secretly manipulating everything to their own evil and selfish ends.

I suppose I could see how it seems like a lot of BS. I do not like thinking that the west is always the bad guys but that is the case. I was in the Marines from 2001-2010 and have tried every which way to justify the things we do but I can not. Sadly I have learned a great deal about how this country works and yes the are manipulating things to their own ends.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

To difficult for you, it seems.

nice try, but no not close.

Exactly what wealth has been stolen? And what Iraqis are fighting the Americans now?

holy freaking crap, what is your IQ at? oh i dont know, maybe their oil. or was that also not obvious? or maybe America are just in Iraq to part-ay?

Which Iraqis ever did for that reason? And the Iraqis who fought, fight and get blown up by them, was it because they wanted the Americans to steal their wealth?!

are you actually trying to convince me that people dont fight for their wealth. wow, your IQ is low.

Get real. Try again.

follow your own advice, and I'll be glad to follow suite.

[Trumble]

Of course the rebels wanted the powers to step in, the rebels were created by the united states and western europe. The leaders of the rebels are doing the same thing they did in Egypt, they take anger that was already there and use it for the benefit of the western powers. And the evil Israelis acted as middle men to smuggle in weapons for them. This seems like it will go down like Yugoslavia.

This thread just gets ever more hilarious. So the Libyan rebels were created by the US and Europeans, just like the Egyptian rfebels, the Yemeni rebels, the Tunisian rebels, the Bahraini rebels.... what planet do you live on?

Moving on..

Hizbullah defeated Israel in 2000 and 2006. Go read Zionist government reports, don't be lazy I'm not your teacher.

Mercifully. I'm afraid it's not my IQ or knowledge that's in question, but your comprehension skills. Let me repeat. You were talking about bringing down the Israeli Zionist regime. In that context, Israel have not been defeated by Hizbullah or anybody else. It's still there, and despite your wishful thinking nothing is likely to change in the near future.

I know you aren't, but Iraqis are. And there are many other policies that you aren't aware of. It's a waste of time arguing with you because your lack of knowledge is extremely frustrating. Perhaps later.

In other words, you have nothing to support that claim whatsoever. Why not just admit it rather than waffle? It is indeed a waste of time arguing when you appear to have no argument.

holy freaking crap, what is your IQ at? oh i dont know, maybe their oil. or was that also not obvious? or maybe America are just in Iraq to part-ay?

'You don't know'? And you question MY IQ! Again, nothing to back up your claim. What oil (or anything else) has been 'stolen'?... please feel free to compare with how oil is extracted elsewhere in the Middle East, the type of deals made with US, Chinese, British oil companies anywhere else, etc. etc.

are you actually trying to convince me that people dont fight for their wealth. wow, your IQ is low.

No. I was pointing out that that is, in fact, the consequence of YOUR claim! Read again and do try and pay attention. What I asked you was, if the Iraqis who fought the Americans did so to protect their wealth (actually it was all about power bases post Saddam, but I'll leave you to your fantasies and play along), why the Iraqis who fought those Iraqis were doing so? According to your 'logic', that could only be because they wanted the Americans to 'steal their wealth'.

[Al-Mufarridun]

What a shame. 1,432 years after the birth of this Ummah, it's 1.5 Billion people are incapable of owning their own destiny. Neither can they save themselves from the tyrants amongst them nor can they defend themselves from foreign aggressions. The situation in Libya today shows the naked reality of our current pathetic predicament. Utter Incapableness. 1.5 Billion people sat and watched as tyrants destroyed fellow Muslims, 1.5 Billion people sit and watch as foreign predators attack Muslim lands left and right. Utter Humiliation. And its entirely our own making. We are reaping the fruits of what we have sown. And unless we change what we sow, we'll continue to reap these fruits of disgrace and humiliation.

We are reaping the fruits of tribalism, nationalism, secularism, socialism, monarchism. How do they taste now? I would love to get a chance to ask this to Mubarak, Ghadafi, and those who are about to follow, those tyrants who would watch the sufferings of the innocent while they dined in golden plates as if they are given immortality, those who said "the Quran and Sunnah are ancient things", Do you still taste the sweetness of the grape, I wonder?


To my fellow Muslim brothers/sisters, don't let our current state weaken nor depress you. Indeed, if you truly believe, know that Allah(swt) owns the heavens and the earth and everything in them. He(swt) governs all affairs with infinite wisdom and knowledge, verily Allah(swt) is the best of plotters.

وَالْعَـقِبَةُ لِلْمُتَّقِينَ

[Thinker]

The West only cares about (economic) interests, they don't view others as human beings but as objects or resources to exploit !!!!!!!
.

So why did so many (non-Muslim) 'western' soldiers die fighting the Serbs in order to stop them killing Muslims? Did the west fight the Serns so that they could get their hands on all the oil in Kosova?

[Thinker]

[RIGHT][LEFT]What a shame. 1,432 years after the birth of this Ummah, it's 1.5 Billion people are incapable of owning their own destiny. Neither can they save themselves from the tyrants amongst them nor can they defend themselves from foreign aggressions. The situation in Libya today shows the naked reality of our current pathetic predicament. Utter Incapableness. 1.5 Billion people sat and watched as tyrants destroyed fellow Muslims, 1.5 Billion people sit and watch as foreign predators attack Muslim lands left and right. Utter Humiliation. And its entirely our own making. We are reaping the fruits of what we have sown. And unless we change what we sow, we'll continue to reap these fruits of disgrace and humiliation.

We are reaping the fruits of tribalism, nationalism, secularism, socialism, monarchism. How do they taste now? I would love to get a chance to ask this to Mubarak, Ghadafi, and those who are about to follow, those tyrants who would watch the sufferings of the innocent while they dined in golden plates as if they are given immortality, those who said "the Quran and Sunnah are ancient things", Do you still taste the sweetness of the grape, I wonder?


To my fellow Muslim brothers/sisters, don't let our current state weaken nor depress you. Indeed, if you truly believe, know that Allah(swt) owns the heavens and the earth and everything in them. He(swt) governs all affairs with infinite wisdom and knowledge, verily Allah(swt) is the best of plotters.

All undeniably true; the question is why?

I recently watched a programme on the TV about the history of Turkey and it seemed clear that Turkey turned a corner when Kemal Ataturk ‘modernised’ Turkey and the single most important thing he did to enable progress and prosperity was to ban Islam from politics. It seems to me that the reason Islamic countries fail so miserably is because the ordinary people think that the way you get what you want/need is to pray harder and they spend all their energies in pushing for even greater influence of Islam in governance which in turn pushes them back towards the 6th century instead of forward.

[Dagless]

Mercifully. I'm afraid it's not my IQ or knowledge that's in question, but your comprehension skills. Let me repeat. You were talking about bringing down the Israeli Zionist regime. In that context, Israel have not been defeated by Hizbullah or anybody else. It's still there, and despite your wishful thinking nothing is likely to change in the near future.

You were quoted the years in question and told their army was defeated. This is a fact and can be verified by anyone. Israel's army was defeated and forced to retreat. However sad that makes you you'll have to accept it. This completely refutes your earlier point here:

3) Because militarily it would be extremely difficult to do (as Arab armies have already discovered on several occasions).

It would not be difficult at all; well no more difficult than any other war. America's army is in a different league to Lebanon and Israel.

[LavaDog]

This thread just gets ever more hilarious. So the Libyan rebels were created by the US and Europeans, just like the Egyptian rfebels, the Yemeni rebels, the Tunisian rebels, the Bahraini rebels.... what planet do you live on?

I would like to point out that I am not saying the west has created the rebels from nothing. The people were angry and they wanted change, but anger can easily be misdirected. There is quite a long list of countries in South America alone were we have done this.

[Argamemnon]

So why did so many (non-Muslim) 'western' soldiers die fighting the Serbs in order to stop them killing Muslims? Did the west fight the Serns so that they could get their hands on all the oil in Kosova?

Not many NATO soldiers died actually. You might be shocked to hear that the bombing preceded the ethnic cleansing and atrocities, which were, in fact, its anticipated consequence.

Kosovo already was an ugly place before NATO bombing with about 2000 killed on all sides, however, the rich Western documentary record reveals no changes of significance (no notable distribution of violence) until the NATO bombing began. The CIA-backed Albanian guerillas (officially "Kosovo Liberation Army" or KLA) had frankly explained that their goal was to kill Serbs so as to elicit a harsh reaction (from Serbs) that would lead to public support in the West for NATO intervention. It's a very complicated conflict like most conflicts are. One of my hobbies is reading books about international relations and world conflicts (apart from religion which of course is not a hobby but my lifestyle). I never respond without knowledge, my "emotional outbursts" have a reason.

I might come back later to address Trumble's totally inaccurate claims about the war in Iraq, I must go now.. the sun is shining here.


Peace/Salam to all...